Miley Cyrus - 'Avatar: Fire and Ash'

24:46That was your first single, See You Again, to crack the top 10 of the Billboard Hot 100. So, I mean, it's worked, this idea that, like, we can create a separate identity. Almost a third identity. Yeah, exactly. I got another character. And then we go down and we're going to have another fourth character. Ashley O comes around and that song takes off. Right, right, right. For See You Again, it was a little bit of a mistake. Again, the fans made that possible because at that time, you know, I think there was an idea that maybe Miley Cyrus was competitive with Hannah. So the support was really funneled into Hannah.

25:17And Miley Cyrus was almost like an opening act. And then it reversed where Miley Cyrus kind of started to outgrow the character because Hannah is, you know, I love her as a character and I love being her, but she is very choreographed. And Miley has always been very off the cuff. And I think the fans, even then, were like, I can't always know what she's going to say or do, and we kind of like that. And, you know, with Hannah, she's a little bit more, you kind of know what you're going to get. And so getting to play both characters where Hannah got to be the kind of, not predictable in a bad way, But kind of a, you know what she is.

25:55She's a pop princess. And then you would get Miley and I would come out in like a studded leather jacket with my name on it. And it already had a bit of a sense of, I started covering Nirvana songs on that tour, which was hilarious. Because now I look at videos of like 10-year-old girls that definitely weren't there to hear that. Putting Smells Like Teen Spirit in with Fly on the Wall, you know, that kind of thing. But that was because your music tastes were already heading in that direction. Even though that was not what, you know, if it had been left up to what you were doing on the show, that was not the kind of music you would be.

26:26There would have been no difference between Hannah and Miley. If I would have just kind of kept up with whatever the idea that Disney would have had for me as Miley, it probably would have not been a big departure from Hannah. And I knew not only it needed to be, but I was so different than Hannah and still kind of am. Yeah, of course. And I think the two divides are really someone based on, she's based on, she's an identity. She's a persona. She's not a person. And my thing that's always really resonated with people is the humanity of what I kind of say and do. And you've obviously come out the other side of all this with sort of I'm who I am and you can take it or leave it.

27:03But early on, I would imagine for a kid, did it get a bit confusing to figure out who you are when you're playing somebody who's essentially supposed to be a version of you and all this? Like, how did you navigate that side of things? I don't know where it came from, but I do feel that I've somewhat always had kind of like an intuitive sense of who I am. And I've been really confident in times and that things that I never should be confident. I have no reason to think that I'm capable of this and I just do it anyways. As I've gotten older, I miss that part about being younger. And when you're younger, I feel like you don't know what failing even is.

27:36So there's no doubt in your mind when you go to try something. Now I can feel myself always, I know what's on the other side of trying something that failure is possible. So I get a little bit more, you know, as we get older, we stiffen up thinking about doing something we're afraid of. But when I was younger, I didn't think about that at all. And I didn't really think about Hannah in competition to Miley at all. Interesting. Okay, so this all led up to studio album number two, which was Breakout in 2008. Another number one album on the Billboard 200, making you just, again, for people keeping track at home.

28:07This is the youngest, you became the youngest person ever to have four number one albums when you're including the soundtrack albums, which why wouldn't you? Now you have established that there's an interest and enthusiasm and demand for you as you, but you're still on the show, which means that the next year you've got soundtrack album number three, Hannah Montana, The Movie, which with The Movie, which is still, people are still going nuts for this stuff. $31 million opening weekend for The Movie, soundtrack again, number one on Billboard 200 with, I guess if there's a single that immediately comes to mind for people, it would be The Climb with that one.

28:44Another mountain. I'm always gonna want to make it move. Always gonna be an uphill battle. Sometimes you're gonna have to lose. Ain't about how fast I get there. Ain't about what's waiting on the other side.

29:05It's the fight. But was it getting frustrating where, of course, stipulating that like Hannah Montana had created opportunities and I know you've said you were grateful for it or whatever but at this point you like I said you'd sort of started to be a person that people were independently interested in but you were still obligated to do things with the show was that getting to be a little tough honestly I I I remember from how I remember it sitting here today, I think I was still pretty into it because I liked, I liked what Hannah gave me. I liked that Hannah was insurance that I knew that if I put tickets up on sale, people would come see Hannah.

29:50And I always just kind of said, I'm going to take the opportunity and kind of tag along. And then as I started tagging, it kind of started eclipsing the Hannah thing as time went on. But you know, that happens a little bit later, but I started touring and touring as Hannah and touring as Miley at the same time. And Miley just kind of had like a bit of a, I guess, something that Hannah missed, which was that kind of authentic connection to the fans. I could talk more off the cuff with them because the way that I kind of am, like you said, is a little more take it or leave it. And Hannah is a bit more polished.

30:25And so they felt like, you know, they were getting almost to see behind the curtain of Hannah Montana, which they were. They were getting to see the real Hannah, which was me. Yes. Interesting thing with the next, not an album, but an EP, The Time of Our Lives, the next year, 2009, that's Party in the USA. I think at that point, your highest charting thing, number two on the Hot 100.

31:03It's a party in the USA Yeah It's a party in the USA At the same time, I think, was that same year, or you shot it the same year, but it came out the next year, was the last song, a movie, you know, Nicholas Sparks from The Notebook or whatever, but in this case, I think reflective of just how popular and excited people were about you. Like, he wrote that for you based on you, right? But your mom at that time had, I found a quote where she said, quote, this film is like taking that first baby step away from Hannah Montana. Close quote. Do you remember it like that? I do. I think because, you know, obviously there was theme of relationship, like a more mature relationship, which also, you know, is a kind of prediction into the future.

31:49But a real relationship, death and grief. And my character was obviously a bit more moody than Miley Stewart would ever be. And so I do think that that was a really, really smart kind of first, yeah, kind of inch into this direction of me separating myself. And then I guess the next, not baby step, but some step in that direction would be Can't Be Tamed. Same year as that movie, studio album number three.

32:27Maybe by now you should know. I can't be saved. I can't be saved. I can't be changed. I can't, can't, I can't, can't be saved. I can't be changed. I guess in this case where title track in the top 10 of the Hot 100, the album number three on the Billboard 200, but I wonder, you were still on the show for another year after that, But in this one, this was a very un-Miley Stewart or Hannah Montana, right? Like, how much would you say it was you making a calculation, like, I need to gradually do it? Or is this just what came out? It didn't feel calculated at the time for me. I think that the people around me that were strategizing were excited about this step.

33:16I think they saw what it was going to do. I didn't write it thinking that this was going to be my Hannah divorce. I definitely didn't see it that way, but I did see it as I'm so clearly knowing who I am now and I'm going to do what that is, even if that contradicts Hannah or what Disney has in mind for me. And I started leaning more and more into the take it or leave it side of me. Did you get pushback, which could be polite or it could be like, were you getting any kind of like, maybe please don't do this or that kind of thing? because just to contextualize also, so Can't Be Tamed came out in 2010.

33:53This is around the time that I think maybe it came from a place of love, but people were, you know, almost acting like as if everyone was your parent or guardian or teacher. I mean, they made a big deal about the Vanity Fair thing in 2008, the Teen Choice Awards in 2009, August 2012 when you ultimately cut your hair. Like everybody, it's like in hindsight and look at the world today, it's like, who gives a shit? It was very G-rated. Yeah. Like this is pretty mild. But I mean, every single thing people had an opinion about and it was, you know, I think a lot of faux outrage or whatever. But like, I guess between that and the Disney side of things, were you feeling pushed back to what you were naturally gravitating towards?

34:41I did. I started feeling that more and more, and I started feeling the call to kind of, yeah, separate myself from the character and wanting that. I was definitely experiencing and experimenting in my life with things that wouldn't make it onto the sitcom. So I'm starting to feel like those are important things for me to experience at that age, just like any other teenager. But I also had the responsibility of this character and this, like, franchise. But I ultimately kind of put myself first unconsciously. You know, now I know. Now I realize it was kind of like a subconscious thing that I, thank God, my younger self kind of had the courage to do it.

35:22Because I think that a lot of the pushback was fear. You know, obviously people are going, I've got a really tight grip on this franchise. And, like, everything couldn't be going better right now. And there was definitely starting to be pushback. and someone that really had my back the entire time, which seems counter, is my mom. She was really into it. She really, really knew that what I was doing was the right thing for Miley Cyrus. Maybe not for Hannah, but for Miley Cyrus for sure, which is, that's her priority. And I guess, you know, the thing that perhaps, like perhaps not responding to what you wanted to do, the people who, and there have been, you know, I don't, I interviewed Mickey Rooney later in his life And he was, you know, as big as you can get as a child.

36:03Yeah. But I think that that's really cool. He went a little a little off the wall later in life because I think he was so boxed into it way, way beyond the age where, you know, you kind of declared a bit of independence. He was he had not. And I wonder if not being who you are can have some really bad effects. I definitely think so. I think, you know, for me, there's that kind of idea that the kind of the only way out is through. And I think when you don't get to go through a natural growth cycle, I don't think it could be healthy for anyone. I think you have to trial and error is like the best way to learn, you know.

36:45And I think for when you're scared, the error thing is really scary because you've just got a lot of people depending on you. And, you know, not only your livelihood, but everyone around you is depending on you to kind of bring home what you usually do when you do a successful tour. You sell out or whatever it is, or big movie. So it's scary when you're keeping grownups that have families, you're keeping their lights on and you're just a kid. You know, that's scary. So we've been talking about these like incremental steps. But I guess if there was one like firm declaration of independence, that would have been bangers, which comes out.

37:19This is studio album number four in 2013. First of all, I guess it was at the beginning stages of that. You parted ways with pretty much everyone, right? Manager, label, everybody. What was that? So I think the fear was the thing that really drove me away from the team that I had when I was younger. They just got so, you know, they're so comfortable with what Hannah is. Hannah is a guarantee. You know that the kids are going to show up. But at the end of it, I think Hannah, you know, Hannah would have an expiration date the way anybody does that doesn't grow and evolve. And Hannah's story is only, she can only evolve as much as she's written to evolve.

37:58Like, and the writers are never going to take her all the way. You're a Disney sitcom. Like you're never going to get to experience or to be the thing that Miley Cyrus can push. And so the fear was just driving me away from everybody. I needed somebody that was unafraid. And that's when I knew the managers that I went to at that time, which was Larry Rudolph, who had had Britney Spears. And she had done a similar thing that I really admired, going from a girl to a woman in front of everyone. And so I knew he was fearless because she had pushed so many boundaries. And so he was someone that I felt, you know, actually really kind of creatively safe with because I knew he would not, you know, he would give me, my mom always says, I need bumpers, not a bridle.

38:44I need somewhere to know if I'm going too far left, too far right, but you don't need someone holding you back. And so he gave me a really good boundary. Then the other, I guess, new creative partners, I think on this were the people who you were, you know, basically songwriting with on that one, right? I think between Pharrell and Mike, that was the first time you were working with those guys, right? It's interesting, though, because, and maybe this was just something that has, maybe you're speaking about this when you've said this, that, you know, things have changed since then. But, you know, for example, on that one, on that Bangers album, we can't stop, right?

39:20This was huge. number two on the Hot 100, all of this, certainly unlike anything in terms of the video and the visuals, anything that you had done before, totally different. But you have said that like that song and even Party in the USA before, these are like not the kinds of music that you yourself would ever listen to. How do you explain that? You know, for me, I, at Party in the USA, even at the time, it never quite felt like me. I always grew up listening to like Stevie Nicks and my dad loved Etta James. And I just, even my album before the two, maybe one or two albums that I had done as Miley Cyrus before, they had kind of more of a, I mean, I was only 12, so they could only be so edgy, but they were edgier.

40:06You know, they had more of a sense of rock and roll. And so Parting the USA always felt kind of overly kind of pop for me. And I think probably the reason I wasn't loving it was because it did kind of remind me of Hannah. It didn't have a big divide. And we can't stop. Again, in the moment, I actually really, really loved that song. I think now being older, obviously it's kind of sentiment and premise is about kind of, you know, you only live once and go for it all the way. And now just being older and wiser, I kind of relate to the lyrics differently. But at the time I was really living them.

40:41So at the time I loved the song.

41:11I love the influence that Mike brought into the studio because it was really aligned with what I was listening to and the life I was living. And then I truly don't believe, I mean, there's maybe, I could count him on my hand for sure, the most impactful people for me creatively out of anyone personally or professionally. And that would be Pharrell. He's definitely on the one hand. What makes him that impactful? He taught me really some of the most meaningful hacks, one, of songwriting. Like if we would get into like a creative dry spell, like the way that he would re-inspire a room, it could even be, because I guess from being so diligent on Hannah, he would like actually take me to kind of shop or go for a drive.

41:57He lived in Miami, so like go to the beach. Like he incorporated that playtime that I didn't ever really have. And so when I would get like a creative block, he would take me shopping and he would say, you're going to see a bag that you're going to know what song you want to write that's going to sound or look like that bag. You're going to see the texture. You're going to see the color. And, you know, there's a whole thing to that. Really seeing music. He sees music as a physical thing. Don't you as well, though? I think they call it synesthesia. Yeah. Synesthesia. I don't think I had that before I worked with Pharrell.

42:30Oh, it came after? Interesting. And he taught me. I remember he took me to go see the Chanel bag, and it was in a case. And I was like, I know what the song should be. And he's like, I told you. And we went back, and we wrote a song called 4x4. And it was because the bag was camo. And so I said, I like that. I'm from Nashville. Maybe we should do something Nashville-influenced because of the camo, and we wrote 4x4. Amazing. Now, also out of that album, for instance, was Wrecking Ball, right? I came in like a wrecking ball. I never hit so hard in love. All I wanted was to break your walls. All you ever did was wreck me.

43:12Yeah, you wrecked me. I put you high up in the sky and now you're not coming down. Your first number one on the Hot 100, three weeks there. But one of the things that, again, I guess people have a hard time letting go of their kids. And in your case, everybody seemed to think that you were their kid. So there was for, you know, with We Can't Stop, you know, I guess some of the music video there. Same with Wrecking Ball, the VMAs that year. You must have, to some degree, expected a reaction, right? Did you get the reaction that you wanted? It's never been about that expectation of reaction for me.

43:57I think, again, my mom is somehow the brains behind all the crazy things that people go, how could her mother let her do that? It's like, it was her idea. It was all my idea, but my mom just really supported it. And I wasn't really going for the reaction so much. I just wanted, what I cared about most was that teddy bear. I was like obsessed with it. That was years of me. I wanted to work with this artist, Todd James, who made it and made all the costumes. And again, I was focused on the creative part. And I didn't know what the big deal was and never thought it was a big deal until I woke up the next day.

44:29And then you looked at Twitter even around. I was staying at the Trump Hotel and Trump sent me a message that said, don't let them get you down. And I was like, but why would I be down? And then I turned on the TV. I was like, oh, because everyone in the world is making fun of me. Oh, Jesus. Okay, so maybe that is not, it's not a coincidence then that what you did next with Miley Cyrus and her dead pets 2015 was probably the most like experimental kind of out there. I don't know if experimental is the right word. That's the right word. Yeah, like is that just because it's like I'm going to, I'm just going to do whatever I want.

45:03Zero percent of that. It was again like all lifestyle, just all my music. The thing about Hannah, and in all respect, it's a calculation because at the end of it, Hannah, she's not an artist herself. She's a writer's projection of their imagination. That's what I love about working with Avatar is I love when you go into a world like Avatar and you see that that's just James Cameron's imagination. Hannah Montana is a grown-up's imagination. And I put life into her. I made it more than an imagination. I made her a real person to the point where people think Hannah Montana is real and in some way that she is.

45:40But I never thought about doing dead pets as this is going to be my way to really, you know, totally divide myself between the two. I just was living that lifestyle. The kind of like psychedelic rock and roll experimental nature. That was just what my day to day life looked like. Just like with bangers. That's what it looked like, too. So it's just reflecting changes that have happened. Like, cause each, the thing that is kind of, if not unique, certainly rare with you is that you've covered so much territory. Like each one of these is kind of completely different from the other, which is incredible that people usually find a niche that they're comfortable in or good at.

46:17And that's where they stay. I get jealous of people like that because I always think people that are consistent are so cool. Like I even love Zoe Saldana working with her. She kind of like, no matter where she is, she's, you know her, she's recognizable. She got a recognizable silhouette. You're never going to go, what did she do? Like, unless she's in a character. Right, right. But I've never been like that. I'm very unexpected. And I wish I could wake up every day and know who I'm going to be. And like, sometimes I even surprise or excite or disappoint myself because I just so get lost. And whatever the idea is in the moment, I'm going to do that all the way.

46:50And sometimes that works in my favor and sometimes it doesn't. But it leads for exciting life, you know. But I do wish I had some sort of pillar, which I think is where my relationships are so important to me. My personal life is like that's as grounded as I get because otherwise I'm kind of something new every day could just take me into a whole new direction. Interesting. Well, chugging along towards the present and certainly, you know, going to spend plenty of time on that. But studio album number six, Younger Now, kind of your, I guess, most country of albums. Malibu being the single that I guess is maybe the case study that I'd love to ask you about here with that one, because another top 10 single.

47:34But also at the time you said, quote, this is like all my eras in one record. My 11-year-old self, my banger self, my dead pet's girl are all in here. I always thought I would sing, so I never swear. I never went boat and don't get how they are floating And sometimes I get so scared of what I can't understand But here I am Next to you The sky is more blue In Malibu Had you had something like that before that was that reflective of all your No, Younger Now was important to me because I wrote everything myself. And that was the most important thing that I just didn't want to share lyrics with anyone.

48:26I wanted it to be journal entries. And so I think that's what I meant by it felt the most unified was because it was at a time where girls like kind of modifying their bodies just started getting popular because Instagram just kind of started getting popular. And I started seeing that young girls didn't want to be younger now. They wanted to be older now. And I was going, I don't want to be older. I want to be younger. And my life was so beautiful when I was young. I loved the, my life's beautiful now, but I loved the idea of like, when you're a little kid, the way that every day is like a question and you just get to be free and be silly and experiment and you have no responsibility.

49:00I'm like, who wants to get older and like pay their taxes? Like I want to be little and just go outside and my dad has to worry about that. So I wrote this song Younger Now, which very much felt like kind of a Disney song. But then the Dead Pets part of it, or bangers, was the fact that I was taking full ownership of what I wanted to do. And it's not the most successful on paper, but it was really fulfilling to me. There was a period of, I think, three years between that sixth and seventh albums. And in between there was something that you've said, and this kind of surprised me, was you described it as just like absolutely terrifying.

49:33And that's Glass and Berry in 2019. it's surprising me because it seems like here's something you've said about performing and I interpreted it at least as performing live earlier on. You'd said, quote, I usually feel pretty bottled up and performing is the only time I get to be myself in my fullest form, close quote. So at the same time I know you haven't toured I think since around Bangers, is that right? Yeah. And so here this was obviously a live massive thing but why would that of all things have been the thing that terrified you it's it's such a massive amount of people it's like close to 200 something thousand people and it's I also did a set list that was again I'm not very good at like it wasn't just supporting the record that I was there to play or playing all the hits I decided to do like 40 percent of covers I did Metallica which is how I ended up becoming friends with them and working with, they call it my Tallica now, which is pretty cool.

50:31That's how I met them because Lars Ulrich was at Glastonbury and he saw me do it. And my management at the time was like, what are you doing? Like people come to Glastonbury to hear your hits, not other people's hits. But I thought when people love these songs and I love these songs and it went really well, it was kind of went down as like a kind of classic performance. But I, at the time I was just really nervous. It was the amount of people that was there. It was just so intimidating. Interesting. And the thing, though, is maybe partly because your godmother is Dolly Parton or you grew up, you know, around artists and whatever, you seem to have more of a maybe it's an interest or appreciation of like the artists from earlier eras, people that maybe even a lot of people your age don't really know about.

51:18So I wonder how much that had to do with Plastic Hearts 2020, seventh album where your collaborators on here are like Joan Jett and Debbie Harry, right? Or was that not Debbie? Yeah, I covered Heart of Glass. Stevie Nicks, right. You covered Heart of Glass. Billy Idol. Like, I mean, it's awesome, I'm sure, like for people who, somebody like you who does know and appreciate them to get to work with them. But like that's, let me frame it this way, because the plan was not even to do that album, right? You were starting towards like a trilogy or something of EPs? Yeah, I was working on a trilogy of EPs.

51:54And part of me is really bummed out that I abandoned that idea because it wasn't totally my idea to leave it alone. It was just at the time my house had recently burned down. I had gotten a divorce. My personal life was just kind of like literally on fire. and so I kind of abandoned that and went into this direction of I think you know in Avatar without getting any spoilers the reason I love it is obviously because fire and ash the theme just really resonates with me and it's about resilience and building from the ground up and part of that is strength and fighting back and that's a theme in the film and I needed to fight back and to fight back I needed to harden up and so Plastic Hearts somewhat kind of bums me out a little bit because I think that instead of leaning into the trauma from a vulnerable place and letting people in emotionally, instead I hardened up and kind of shut people out because kind of being so exposed and being so kind of, you know, music and sharing that with the world and invites people into a really personal time that I wanted to kind of keep private as I could because it was exposed whether I really liked it or not.

53:00And I just really kind of, that was, I think, the most enclosed I had ever been. And I think that's why Plastic Hearts, I still kind of have a love for it, but also a little bit of a disappointment in myself because it's the time that I kind of, I feel like I shut out, but we were also living in a global pandemic. Yeah. Give yourself a little break. Yeah. And I've just, again, people for reference, that's Midnight Sky. That's Never Be Me, Angels Like You, just for reminders. Endless Summer Marification 2023. So many great songs on here, including, I think you referenced earlier, used to be Young, River, Jaded, but Flowers is the one that I think for most people is going to come to mind first.

53:41I loved, I listened to your podcast with another podcast you did with Zane Lowe, where he likened it to I Will Survive, which I think is like the right, I mean, not right or wrong, but it's an apt comp. You have called it, I don't know if this is still the case, but your favorite of your songs? Is that the case? I think so. I think because the way that I love the way it's affected people, I love that it's a song that I've written. It's kind of really given me the thing that I wanted on all my albums. It gives me the songwriting, you know, as a songwriter, it gave me the fulfillment of writing my own music top to bottom.

54:14But it also gave me as a producer, I made it sound the way that I really wanted. I love that I, the way I described it was I wanted it to sound really good through a pair of headphones if you're walking alone down the Chandelier. I wanted it to feel like you were just, you had just gotten your heart broken and you flew yourself to Paris and now you're listening to your favorite song. And I, yeah, I just love the way that it makes me feel. I love the way it makes people feel. And I feel like if anything, it's a full kind of circle of my dad's original goal of bringing, you know, a destiny to bring hope to the world.

54:44I think that's what that song did. I didn't want to leave you. I didn't

55:14And in addition, it also did eight weeks at number one. That's pretty good, too. Which is pretty good. and your first two Grammys. I was there that night and it was awesome. You performed. You then win Best Pop Solo Performance and then the biggest deal of all record of the year. And a lot of people like to act a little bit too cool for school that this doesn't mean anything to me or whatever. And maybe at one time, another time in your life, maybe that might have been your reaction. I don't know. But I thought it was great that you acknowledged that it meant a lot to you. And I wonder if you could describe why that.

55:49Because you've, you know, look at all these billboard stats that I'm saying, and we know the sales. And, like, there are a zillion metrics that say you've been a great success. But what is it about the Grammys that meant that much to you? Well, one thing is I collect gold and brass, so I was very excited about the statue. It's a new one. It looked really nice. And I had a place for it before I even went, which I think is a part of not having expectations. But there's, like, non-expectations and then manifestation. Right, right. And I did go there with the idea that I was happy to go whether I came home with something or not.

56:20And when I walked off stage, my mom goes, I know you're just really happy that you got more brass for your collection. I was like, kind of. You know, I think because I never had one, I have done so many things. And I think every year it falls the nominations near my birthday. And I'm always a bit disappointed because whether you like it or not, it always becomes something that not only you hope for, but the people that you collaborate with, it's always something that they wish for. and I want to win not for me, but for them. Sure, sure. That was 2023, 2024. You did something which you might have, I don't know if you'd ever previously done this outside of a Hannah Montana related movie, but an original song for a movie, which was for The Last Showgirl, you did Beautiful That Way, which I mainly want to bring up because that's, again, a year before we get to this new song for Avatar, which we'll talk about.

57:08But writing a song for a movie, first of all, why did you decide that was the time you were going to do that. How procedurally is it different from when you just, you know, write any other song? Well, I'm really inspired by Pamela Anderson's performance and her evolution and what she's kind of stripped back and how she's actually become more of her full self by taking away. I always say sometimes it's not what you start doing, it's what you stop doing. And just by letting kind of go and like not performing anymore, she's actually delivered her best performances. So Pam has been, I said I could count on hands of someone that's inspired me.

57:45She's one of them, who she's been and who she is. And she's been so good to me as I've grown up. She's just been really supportive of me. And she's like kind of family. I want to do it for her. I want to support that moment. And I never thought both of us were going to sit at the Golden Globes as nominees together. So I really just wrote it as a love letter to Pam.

58:10Always falls at least you and your name.

58:20Now the light shines on some other girl who's beautiful than way. Okay, so between that coming out and Avatar, Fire & Ash coming out was your, earlier this year, your ninth studio album, Something Beautiful, which you said would not have been possible without the prior one, Endless Summer Vacation. And this one, I think, I guess if there's one song that, you know, is like kind of, again, the one that we just raised to talk about, maybe it's End of the World, which I never would have guessed until I read it, but you wrote it for your mom. I did. I wrote it for my mom. And now that I'm engaged, Max is in the video with me.

59:03And that song was really about kind of, you know, I think there's a lot of fear in our world right now. Obviously, you hear the kind of, especially on social media, you hear a lot more bad news than good news. And for me, I've always, like I said, I kind of contradict everything. So when something is going bad, my instinct is to let's celebrate the good. Let's not focus on the thing that's kind of in front of us. Let's focus on the thing that we forgot. That song is a total love letter to her. I wrote that actually about a day we were apart. It was the 4th of July, and I used to spend that with her, and she was in Italy.

59:35I was in Malibu, and I was talking to her, and we were both crying on the phone. She'd only been gone like a week, and I wrote this love song for my mom. And that's a theme that I love in Avatar as well, that love can be deeper than just romance or just a partner. It can be something like a mother, a child, a bond between someone that's chosen. And so then to put Max in the video and use that as kind of my love letter to the two pillars of my life that really keep me where I am now, which is the best I've ever been. That's awesome. You've been the tallest you've been saving on a Mercedes Benz.

1:00:08And throw a party like McCartney with some milk for my friends. Yeah, let's go down to Malibu and watch the sun fade out once more.

1:00:23Show me how you'd hold me up tomorrow

1:00:34All right. Well, you set up the perfect transition. Present day. Present day with Dream is One. I mean, it's not like you have known James Cameron forever in the way that you're talking about, say, Pamela Anderson or somebody. Where did you guys meet? And, you know, this came out of it. Connect the dots of how that led to this great time. So we met backstage at the Disney Legends event, which we were both inducted. I was waiting in line, my turn, and I said, do you need a song? And he did. And I always do that. I mean, I did that at the Globes last year. Baby Reindeer, they're going up to accept their globe.

1:01:05And I said, if you ever need a song or if you're doing season two, I'd love to do it. That's amazing. I just like doing music for people. And I like also being a part of films that he's been dedicated to this for almost 20 years. And if I can in some way kind of take something off the – there's so much to create the world of Avatar. And the thing that I feel he's, you know, obviously he's best at making his films. And I feel that I'm someone that if I can go and get myself by a piano, I can do, I can write a song that feels like it's large scale enough to go, to flow into something like Avatar because it needed to fit.

1:01:36But I also can write something that's intimate and emotional enough that can hopefully kind of bring the heart forward. Because obviously it being so visual, you're totally entertained and immersed the entire time. But I always want to bring it back to the emotion of what the film is really based on, which is love. And had you been super into the prior two, did you need to see footage of number three to be writing yours? Or is it enough to have him tell you or show you a script or whatever? No, I did. I watched the film and I've watched it in different kind of, you know, in its process. I've watched it kind of be created.

1:02:13And that was really helpful for me because it made me feel more a part of the journey, more a part of the family. And because they've been working together so long, you know, they've been filming this movie for, you know, decades, that it made me feel really a part of it, which is what Avatar is about, that chosen kind of clan and feeling a part of something. And I think I actually now I remember hearing that. Did you, like, get some of the footage to while you're writing the song, you were able to put it around you or something? Yeah, we projected Pandora into the studio. So I was actually in Sunset Sound, but I could create the world of Avatar around me.

1:02:47And that was really inspiring because usually you're doing visual and music in the opposite order where you're writing a song and then later you create a visual. But this time to be able to be immersed, it was making it so obvious when, you know, a beautiful creature or an incredible colored tapestry or something was shown, you would go, that's what we need to do. And was Jim telling you from the beginning, like, I'd love for this song to go at the end? Or did it, could it have, like, basically what kind of framework did you have of how it was used? I knew it was the button. I knew it was at the end.

1:03:17You know, the thing that I love about him is I would go to call him and think it was going to be a two-minute phone call and we would talk for two hours. And we would just talk about the real stuff. And that makes it so magic because Avatar is such a fantasy. It's so out of this world that then when you can just talk about the grounded kind of everyday life things that, you know, you don't always get to talk to James Cameron about. He has a pretty amazing perspective on love, life, death, grief, trauma, healing, resilience, courage, faith. And taking that and then actually getting to know him made it.

1:03:49That was more important to me for the songwriting process than even getting to watch the movie itself. because it's his imagination, so getting into his mind on how he perceives the human experience, that was really, really helpful. And his instinct and his guidance was be yourself. And I had even said yesterday, whenever you'll hear this, when I was speaking to James last time, I told him, oh, I'm going to go and do some press and talk about the film to everybody, and he was like, oh, well, just be yourself. That's always his go-to. And for a world that is, yeah, so creative, for him to just really want someone to be authentic.

1:04:25I think that's what makes Avatar the phenomenon that it is because it's not just blue and fire and another world. People can see the, I guess, the small story in its large delivery. Totally. And this is you collaborating with Mark Ronson, who you've worked with before, right? And Andrew Wyatt. I worked with. And Simon Franglin. Yes, we love Simon. So where do you remember just how this evolved? Like, was it, I know this is kind of the cliche question, but like music or lyrics? What was first? What was the, you know, this title, where does that come from? I'm just curious how it evolved. So the title was a request actually from James and I, he wanted a song that felt intimate.

1:05:10And I went back and said, well, we dream as one is pretty mass. It's pretty epic to me. When I think of the word we, I kind of think of like as the world. I think of as culture. We dream as one. We're stronger together. You know, there's a line in the film that Jake says that something about, you know, kind of arrows bound can never be broken. It was a bit of a writing challenge to go, how do I make a song about we, which feels so massive, feel so small and so intimate? And then how do I surrender to a film so big and not go toe to toe? How do I actually let the vulnerability and the tenderness be the strength of the song?

1:05:46And so So we kind of worked the song a couple of different ways. It wasn't like we just came in and obviously when someone works on something, I think they've been filming this one since like 2016. I'm like, all right, we are going to have to work on this for more than a day. So we did a lot of songwriting sessions. We actually wrote the song that it is now, Dream is One, and we threw it out. We actually got rid of it. And we wrote another one. And then that one didn't feel quite right. And we left. And then we came back and we listened to the other one and go, oh, the one that's out now. And we're like, that's the one.

1:06:11And then we threw it away again. And then we wrote like kind of another song. And then Mark was out of town, and I called Mark and said, okay, should we really abandon the one? And he goes, I don't know. Let's just take a break. And then he comes back in town, and there's another song. And we listen to it. And then I'm like, let's listen to Dream is One one more time. And we do, and everyone goes, forget these other songs. It's Dream is One. And we went back to day one. That's so crazy. Has that ever happened? Have you ever anything like that? I've changed the songs, like maybe sonically or musically, or you change a melody, but I've never written three different songs.

1:06:43And James never even heard the other two. They were not worth listening to. The one just always was Avatar.

1:07:14Dream as one Every time we dream, we dream as one Every time we dream, we dream as one Well, with the last 30 seconds, if I can, or let's maybe, in fairness, a minute, just first thing that comes to your mind about a few things. could you do this or would you want to do this with a Bond movie too? That's come up as well. I definitely would. You would? Yeah. Do you have ideas already? Yeah. I mean, I actually feel like kind of my last album, a lot of people when they were listening to songs like Easy Lover, they would say, this sounds like a Bond song. That would be awesome. Okay. What's it like for you?

1:08:01I think it was at the same Grammys recently when maybe it was the year after. I don't know. But like a lot of the same people who are winning Grammys alongside or around the same time as you are now people who say basically they wouldn't have existed without you. I mean, Chapel Roan, I think, has said that her alter ego is because of Hannah Montana slash Miley Stewart. Sabrina Carpenter, I guess, won a contest to meet you when she was 10. Yeah. Then you've got Olivia Rodrigo. All these people who are and it goes on from there. But basically, I think Troye Sivan, right? Like all these guys, not to, I mean, you're still so young, but that's got to be crazy to think that you've already had that kind of an impact.

1:08:42No, definitely. And I hope that the way that I'm living life now, where I'm really balanced between personal life and professional, I hope that kind of inspires them as much as the kind of height of what I was doing. I hope now that these women can see that you can have a really healthy personal existence because there isn't many people in my position that get to have it all. And maybe actresses more than musicians because actresses, they play a character and they leave it on set. And musicians, you know, isolated touring for long periods of time. You're putting your personal life into songs and sharing where when a character, you could maybe put your personal story into a character.

1:09:20But you get some sort of, you know, you kind of can stay anonymous in that kind of way. And so I hope that these people that have been inspired by the height of this career when I was younger can now see that you can be equally as successful with still having a really healthy personal life. Last question. First episode of Hannah Montana aired March 24, 2006. We are coming up on 20 years, which has got to feel a little crazy. So obviously all this stuff that we've been talking about has happened in a period of 20 years. A lot has been packed in, a lot of amazing work and ups and downs and all of this.

1:09:58If you had never gotten cast, if they had gone with somebody else on Hannah Montana. Big mistake. Big mistake, of course. That absolutely would have been a big mistake. What do you think your life would look like today? I think two things. I think there's a chance that I would be just how I am now, but without the success, without fame, and just be fulfilled, probably singing somewhere and it didn't matter where, just doing that. And, you know, obviously family is so important to me that I think I could have lived a very fulfilled life. I don't think I could tell you, well, I would have been devastated.

1:10:31I don't know who I would be. I think I would be me just maybe without some of the stuff that I have now. And then my other thing thinks that, damn it, I would have made it happen regardless. I would have just found another way. I would have been Nick Kidd. I don't know. I would have showed Disney. Well, thank you so much and congratulations. Thank you. Thanks so much. I appreciate it.

1:10:56Thanks for listening to Awards Chatter. We really appreciate it and would really appreciate you taking just a minute more to subscribe to the podcast and to leave us a rating and review on your podcast app. And to follow us on Twitter and Instagram, where our handle is at Awards Chatter. On those platforms, we announce upcoming guests and provide details about special live recordings of the podcast that you can attend. Until next time, thanks again for tuning in.

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