Wagner Moura - 'The Secret Agent'

32:52and I was just living there and going to places where it's called bar. I was reading the books. I was doing everything. And nobody there knew. Nobody knew. Nobody knew. Just this random foreigner. I was doing this by myself. And then I was there eating like crazy to get chubby and living away from my family. I was already there for three or four months already and Netflix didn't know this was happening. They didn't even know that you were cast. No. I guess Padilla, there was, I had been cast. Padilla, I'm sure he was saying like, yeah, yeah, I have the guy. And they were like, yeah, but maybe let's.

33:28And one day they went to Medellin to scout, to see locations. It was like producer Eric Newman, who also became a very close friend of mine. Chris Brancado, the writer. And Padilla. And Padilla was like, okay, now you're going to meet the guy who's going to play Pablo Escobar. And he arranged a dinner and we sat and we talked. And thankfully, the conversation went super well. It was awkward in the beginning because it was great. Can you believe this? It's like asking you to go get all. You are going to, let's say, to South Africa and you're going to play Nelson Mandela. I don't know. It was something like that.

34:13Well, on one level, I could see why it's crazy. On the other level, it's like if you're hiring Padilla on the basis of the Elite Squad movies, you get the guy that made the Elite Squad movies. Yeah, and back then Netflix was very open to that. It was the first years of Netflix. Remember that time? Of course. When Netflix was like they would just hire the talent and go like, go, do it. So we benefited a lot from that. But I remember the conversations about whether Americans would read subtitles or not. Well, that's what I want to ask you about next because we have to just remind people because the world has changed so much.

34:48It's only just over a decade since Narcos came out the first season. But at that time in 2015 when it went on or when it dropped, as you say, like Americans historically had not really shown up to watch or at least they had not bought tickets to go to a theater to watch this. Now, maybe part of the thing was the ease of taking a chance because you're just at home and you can click on something. But you guys really blazed the trail. Parasite wins Best Picture. There are people a few years later, five years later, I think, after Narcos went on the air, people there were saying this is only possible because of something like Narcos, which conditioned people to – in America, to subtitles.

35:30Then Squid Game becomes the biggest thing ever on Netflix, on and on and on. Now every year there are multiple movies, hopefully, and should be Secret Agent among them that are non-English that are getting nominated for Best Picture. It's kind of amazing the impact you had. It is. But you didn't think – nobody thought that was going to happen. No. I remember vividly like talking to Newman, to Padilla, and we were like, yeah, I think this might work in Europe. Things like that in other territories. But, yeah, the U.S., we don't – this is not going to happen. So what was the first realization? I guess Netflix even then was dropping a whole season at once, right?

36:12Yeah. So the day that the show drops, from then, how quickly after that did you start to realize that things were going to be different? I don't really remember. I think it took some time. I think it was when I got nominated for the Globes. Yes. I got a nomination for the Golden Globes for doing this. this thing in Spanish. I think that's when I was like, okay, this is like, and I started to become recognized here in the U.S. And I was walking on the streets and people were like, are you the Pablo Escobar guy? I think that that's like, but that was like, I don't know, at the end of the first season, you know, after like, yeah, we had released the first one, yeah.

36:56Amazing. And then the second season, it's kind of interesting because this was the one maybe where your challenge was even more different because we see a lot more of him with the family and you have to kind of essentially humanize a monster, which obviously every person is a human on some level. But was that or was something else maybe? Like what did you find the most daunting about that character? But you know what? Again, I went back to the previous experience of playing Nascimento in Elite Squad. You know, because when I said that the left wing in Brazil was angry about the film, the accusation was like you humanized a torturer, a killer, or, you know.

37:42And I always found that accusation kind of crazy because I'm like, this is kind of my job. Yes. It's like everybody is a human being. Nascimento was a human being. and I don't have to agree with the things that he's done, but I have to look at him and see him as a person. And Pablo Escobar was the same. Of course he was a despicable person. He was a sociopath. But he was a human being. He really loved... I mean, I think I've read everything that was written about that man and seen everything. And he really loved his family, his kids, You know, was a good friend to some of his friends and did very good things for some people and for poor people in Medellin.

38:33Until today, if you go to Medellin. Yeah, schools, right? He built like an entire neighborhood. But this is, you know, the kind of thing that happens also in the favelas of South America, in places where the state doesn't get in. Or in places where the state only gets in with brutality, with police, with force. that's when people like Escobar or, you know, Narcos, they take over, you know, because they start to occupy a space that the state left alone. So after the second season, the show continued, but that was it for Pablo and for you. And I think from what I've read, you were pretty OK with that.

39:12It had been a lot and also probably a lot to carry around for that time mentally, physically, all of that. But now you're – and you hadn't taken work in between the seasons. You were focused. So now for the first time, with a bigger international profile than ever, you have to consider what to do. And I wonder if you can talk about how I think around that time you must have been thinking, I want to direct. Yes, it's interesting because I feel sometimes like right after Elite Squad, and like you said, Elite Squad was huge in Brazil, huge. Nascimento became like a pop culture character in the country.

40:02And right after that film, what I decided to do was to go to theater and play. And so I did Hamlet. And right after Narcos, I felt that I had to do something similar. I was getting the same offers, like let's play bad guys, Latinos that were mean and violent and things like that. Nothing interesting was coming my way. And I thought that instead of nothing interesting was going on in Brazil as well. So I had this project of directing this film about this revolutionary, this man who was the leader of the armed resistance in Brazil against the dictatorship, a man called Carlos Marighella. A biography about him had just been released.

40:56I bought the rights for it. I got together with Fernando Meirelles, the director of City of God, who was the producer of the film. And we produced this film. and I directed my first feature film, which was, again, not an easy choice in a moment when Brazil was starting to become very polarized politically. That's right. I wonder if I can interrupt for one second because I want listeners to understand. You finish Narcos in 2016, or it drops in 2016. Yeah. Margiella comes out in 2019. In between, in 2018, is when we have Mr. Bolsonaro show up. I think, first of all, people should read and look into this themselves.

41:41They can also check out this new documentary, Apocalypse in the Tropic. Yes, very good. Which gets into this. But can you just give the kind of Cliff Notes version of what happened in 2018 to 2022 that affected a lot of Brazilians, but certainly among them a lot of artists, including yourself and Clever and your film. It affected your film. Listen, Brazil was under a very heavy dictatorship from 64 to 85. And after 85, we had the most liberal constitution in the world. You know, the country walked towards a very liberal and left winger and with social, let's fix the social issues and let's be like free education, free health.

42:31It's like it's beautiful, actually. This is still there. But we lived under the illusion that we had buried that past of authoritarianism and fascism. And it's not only the dictatorship. The history of Brazil is built upon violence and colonialism and imperialism from America, from the U.S. and interventions and things like that. And Brazil was the last country in the Western world to abolish slavery, for example. So all these things suddenly manifested in a man called Jair Bolsonaro, a far-right congressman who was like a joke when he was a congressman. He spent – everybody like, oh, the clown, you know.

43:22And suddenly, I don't know what were the – I can't talk about – I don't know what caused this. Of course, there was a movement in the world of the far right and everything. But he became a serious contender to become president of Brazil. And then we stopped laughing. And then he won the election. And when that happened, it was like we were living in the worst nightmare ever, like because he was bringing back the values of the dictatorship. He praised the torturers. He praised the killers. He openly, it was like these guys were heroes in Brazil. So and I had just directed a film about a revolutionary that fought against the dictatorship.

44:10And as you know, like with technology, and that's why, again, why journalism is so important, the technology made the way people get information, and people are living in their islands of information, those bubbles of information causing polarization. I did another film about that, Civil War, we can talk about it later, which is exactly about that. The aftermath of a polarized situation. So that's how Brazil was back then. And that's exactly when I was about to release my film. So we received death threats, horrible things, people saying that they were going to go to the set and break shit down.

44:47It was hardcore. The film was released in Berlin in competition. It was great, like in a special screening. It was beautiful in 2019, super well received. All the critics, everything was great. We started to go to many other film festivals in the world, but we couldn't release the film in Brazil. How did that actually work? Like they made people just not – theaters were busy or what? There is an agency in Brazil called Uncini, which is the agency that regulates our industry. And they took over. And so it wasn't censorship how it was back during the dictatorship. Like you won't release your film.

45:28They just made it impossible. All the channels were blocked. It was like – but even though we did it. the film of course we could only release it in 2021 like in the end of the pandemic as well but it was a beautiful movement because people in Brazil were like this film needs to be we had so many support it became a political thing in many places we had to have metal detectors at the theater but we screened the film in social movements in indigenous tribes It was very strong. And it was in this same time period when Bolsonaro's giving artists of all kinds a very hard time that you and Kleber kind of reconnected?

46:19That's how we got together again because Kleber was also very vocal against Bolsonaro when he released his film in Cannes, a film called Aquarius. That was before Bolsonaro, but that was the beginning of the movement that led Bolsonaro to power because we had the coup d 'etat that ousted our first female president, Dilma Rousseff. And Kleber in the red carpet and the actors, they displayed like posters saying there was a coup d 'etat going on in Brazil right now. And he suffered the consequences of that when Bolsonaro took over. So we were both like, like any fascist president, if you go to the manual of fascism, they all go after journalists, university and artists, you know, and especially the ones that are vocal against him.

47:14So it was hard. So Kleber and I started to call each other and going like, we have to do something. How can we react to this? And that's how the secret agent was born, I think. Amazing. from our shared perplexity over what was going on in Brazil in the 21st century. I think you've also said that the character who you play, or you really are playing three characters in a way, but the core of the guy is that it's a bit of Cleber and a bit of you, right? Yeah. So this is very personal. It may be set back in the 70s, right, when the different issues were being or different characters were part of the national problem.

48:00But it speaks very much to the – and deliberately to the current moment. To Brazil under Bolsonaro. Yeah, yeah. Right, to under Bolsonaro. And by the way, in case anyone is listening and thinking like I'm not putting together also some of the parallels. I mean a clown, a person who everybody thinks of as a clown who somehow gets elected. And then, by the way, we didn't even mention that two years after our January 6th, 2021, you guys have your own January 6th. Same thing. Try to storm the Capitol to overthrow – or the government buildings to overthrow – try to overthrow a democratic election. I mean it's just crazy.

48:38And at what point in this process, by the way, you also – you moved to America and became a citizen here thinking you were getting into a better situation. Yes, under Donald Trump. Right. Yeah. But I have to point out that right now our clown is in jail for attempting against democracy in the country. And ours just paid a visit to South America, so who knows what's – yeah. Anyway, between Margella in 2019 and The Secret Agent is 2015, I just want to note there's also the movie Sergio about Sergio Vieira de Mello. He played the U.N. diplomat in that. 2022 you received an Annie Award nomination for voiceover acting in Puss in Boots The Last Wish which I know you've said you know people can sometimes poo-poo an animated movie oh it's for kids or a cartoon or whatever but like it was significant for you first because it's a good movie but also very philosophical I think and good for you felt more comfortable language wise yes Yes, it was great because as you know, I had never done that before.

49:49So I was just showing up, you know. I was like, I always took these two things that were very important for me here. The two recent things that I've done that made me more at ease. Not only with the fact that I'm not speaking my native language, but also like as an actor. I always took preparation very seriously, as you can see, when I did Narcos. Yes. But with Puss in Boots, I was just like, you know what, I'll just show up, you know, and see. So I was trying different voices and doing things. I was just having fun. And that was great. And then right after that, I was at my place. It was Friday.

50:31And I got a call from my agent saying, like, Ridley Scott wants to talk to you. And I was like, what? yeah and indeed he calls me and he goes hey mate uh we have this thing here it was friday but we can you fly tomorrow and can you be shooting on monday and i was like i'm sorry mr ridley scott i can't i can't do that and then and then i read the scripts written by peter craig it's a series called dope thief yes and then and then brian tyree harry called me and to the move me he was like, I know, dude, it's too much. I mean, I appreciate that you took the time to read it, but it's crazy. And as soon as I heard his voice, I was like, I'm doing this.

51:12That's awesome. So I went there really not knowing. So it was two experiences that really fortified me. I didn't know the character. I didn't know the lines. I just showed up. And I was interested. You have to be careful with what you ask for the universe. because I was like, I think I need to do something that would take me off my comfort zone. And so these two things, like Puss in Boots, you're just deliberately having fun. Yeah. And Dope Thief, which was scary, but like, show up, listen to your colleague, connect to him, and do it. And that was great. Also in these years between the Margiel and Secret Agent, You've got two times playing journalists, Shining Girls on TV, and then also Civil War, which we mentioned.

52:06Alex Garland's film. I think you were originally approached about devs, but that led to instead. That wasn't possible, but this was. I was doing Sergio, this film that you just mentioned. Because when I finished Narcos, also, and I had directed Marigela, back then, again, Netflix was very open to ideas. And I was like, I want to do a film about this Brazilian diplomat. You know, this guy called a real character, a real hero, a guy called Sergio Vieira de Mello, who was supposed to be the next secretary general in the UN, and he was killed in Iraq in a terrorist attack. And Netflix was great. They gave us the money to make that movie, and so therefore I couldn't be in devs.

52:52But I'm very glad that Alex Garland remembered me for his next project, which was Civil War. Totally. And then the last one that I'll mention before Secret Agent was also Mr. and Mrs. Smith where you got to do some comedy. I know people don't always – I think maybe they still are thinking you're Pablo Escobar. They don't realize you could be funny too. And then as you mentioned, Dope Thief, terrific as well. But then this year in Cannes came The Secret Agent. And I just want to – I'm going to set it up in case – there may be people listening who have heard of the title and they haven't seen it yet or whatever it is.

53:28And correct me if you think I'm framing it wrong at all, but Armando, formerly a scientific researcher at a university, right? Now in late 70s Brazil at the height of the military dictatorship. He's a widower at this point on the run from the regime going by Marcelo. Hiding out on the property of an elderly woman who houses fugitives in Hesif. Is that how you pronounce it? during Carnival. Yes. Hoping to reunite with his young son and get out of the country. So that's character one and two, I guess, in a way. And then character three is the grown-up version of that son, Fernando. So after all these projects that we've talked about, it's been years since you've gotten to act in your own language, in your own country.

54:20You go back to do that, playing this character who we've said is sort of a mix of you and Clever. At a time in Brazilian history when you were alive, but very, very young, I guess it all made for a very emotional shoot. Yeah. Yeah. But a very happy one. I was very happy. I was very – like I hadn't worked in Portuguese for 12 years, which is insane. It's crazy. And again, I wanted to work with Kleber. It was a very personal project. I'm a producer in the film. It was a realist. There are films that you do and you're very happy doing it and the film doesn't end up being good. And there are films that you do that it's very chaotic and crazy and the film ends up being great.

55:12I think that the films, they don't reflect the processes of making them, which is interesting. but in this case I was happy from day one to now I love talking about it I think it's a great film I think it's an important film I think it's a film that I'm that I feel that's the kind of film that I'm you know if you see the films that I've been doing this makes so much sense political films and with something to say with characters that are complex so yeah Yeah, it was to be in Recife, to be speaking Portuguese again, you know, to be working with Cleber and working with such a diverse cast from actors from the northeast of Brazil.

56:01Some non-actors, people who hadn't acted, right? Some of them non-professional actors. Who plays the, who houses the refugees. You guys are also shortlisted for the best casting Oscar. And I think it's obviously first and foremost great that you're the star of the movie, but the cast, it's an ensemble of people that you just wonder where they found all these people. It's amazing. It's an amazing cast. But what challenged you the most here? I mean, you've done a lot of different kinds of things. You've done them very well. So I'm wondering what, if anything, was different. I think I'm more and more conscious of the fact that I'm kind of always playing a version of myself with every character that I play, even Puzin Boots.

56:42You know, like it's me. It's a very Pablo Escobar. It took me some time to fully understand that. Like, and now I'm very aware of that. So The Secret Agent was, like you said, it's clever. But it was a lot myself. there, like Wagner. Many scenes, I would just with some scenes with the lady that just mentioned, Donatonia and Sebastiana, you could see that I'm in awe. You can see, I allow myself to be like just looking at this lady and be like, oh my god, she's so wonderful. So sometimes the camera's on me and I'm like, as Wagner, I'm like, oh my god, she's so funny, so great and so cool. So there was something happening, I think that something happened in the secret agent because I usually as a political person and like a Latino man I react to injustices in a very explosive way usually and you can see this in films that I've done especially in this squad I guess and in this case I couldn't this character couldn't be like that and it's the character that I've played that suffered the biggest amount of injustices like he had His wife died.

58:01They want to take his son from him. They took his job. They've persecuted him. They want to kill him. And he goes on being very stoic and keeping everything internally, all the emotions within himself. And I don't think I have ever done, maybe in Sergio, but I don't think I have ever done something like that, which I couldn't really react physically or even with words to anything. Everything was just within myself. And that was different. And I wouldn't say that there was a challenge, but it was interesting to go through that as myself. Because for me, it was always like that. It was like, what would I do if I was there?

58:51Me. How would I react to these things? Sometimes we don't know how we would react to things. So that's why I also love acting. For me, it's about the moment, the action. I don't like many conversations. I don't like sometimes actors and directors, they like to, hey, so we should do this, and then we do that, and then when I do this, you do that. I don't like that. I like, let's just see what happens. Let's just go. and some actors are just amazing to work with. And I'm just thinking of Brian Tyree Harry now, who was my partner in Doble Eve. And it's just a joy. And all of the actors of The Secret Agent.

59:37Last couple minutes are just sort of big picture. I wonder what you think when I throw out something at you about random stuff. I mean, first of all, with Secret Agent, 20 years after you are at Cannes and meet Clever, you're back at Cannes with the premiere of this movie, and you both win awards. He wins Best Director, you win Best Actor. The movie kind of explodes there. Just when you think about that full circle moment, just as the first of these kind of quick brief things, it's kind of unbelievable. It is. It is. It makes you think of something magical or hidden. It makes you think about destiny and these things.

1:00:21It was very magical. Next thing, what is the impact? Obviously, people all around the world are watching it and enjoying it as a movie, but you guys made it to say something about not just the Brazil of the 70s in the film, but about Brazil of today where fortunately things there are better than they were when you were thinking about making this. But what is the impact you hope it will have in Brazil? It's interesting because a film or actually any art form is always the encounter of what an artist wants to say with a very specific audience in that particular time that sees that thing. You know, I think that had we released this film under Bolsonaro, it would have another film.

1:01:07It would have been another film. Same film, but with another meaning. Another, you know, when I released Marigela under Bolsonaro, it had a very different meaning. Now Brazil is a democratic country, you know, that loves culture. That finally, but there is a very interesting thing that I want to point out. because The Secret Agent is a film about memory as well and the lack of memory. And Brazil has a problem with memory because we had the thing. We always had things like at the end of the dictatorship, we had this thing called the amnesty law that basically forgave all torturers and killers that did despicable things to civilians.

1:01:46And so if we hadn't had that law, Bolsonaro would never have been elected, for example, because we would know. People wouldn't forget. And right now, Brazil, for the first time, sent to jail military people and a former president that attempted against democracy in the country. And we are releasing this film right now in this very particular moment. And there is one character in the film, which is the woman who is a researcher in the future. And she's one of the youngest characters of the film. It's a woman. And it's a young woman that cares about memory. and what she offers my character in the end of the film on the table is a piece of memory.

1:02:26That dude is not capable of dealing with that. But my dream and my hope and what I can see at this moment right now is that young Brazilians will be able to deal with our memory and cherish our memory from this point on. Well, and here's where cinema can really make a difference with things because you guys are coming a year after I'm Still Here, which is also about memory exactly it's amazing and has really made the world it's had that effect in brazil and it's made the world say oh my god brazil's very serious uh doing great stuff with with film as well i guess the last question is well last two if i can second to last one we're talking i'm sitting here across from probably the most well-known south american born actor living in America, right?

1:03:20So I feel like I have to ask you, what do you make of the shit of the last 48 hours, which is when, just so people know when we're recording, it's going to post a little later, but America is basically declared war on Venezuela. It's just unacceptable. And let me point out first, the first thing is this has nothing to do with supporting Maduro, his regime, I think he's a detector. I think his, Venezuela deserves better than Maduro, but the United States invading a country, bombarding a country, killing people in the country, and kidnapping its president, it's a very, very dangerous precedent, you know, and it's happening in South America, in Latin America.

1:04:12It makes us think of old times of American imperialism in the Monroe Doctrine and the big stick thing. I'm sure you know that all the dictatorships in South America in the 60s, the one that we are talking about in The Secret Agent, for example, in the 60s and the 70s, they were all supported by the CIA and the United States. So this cannot be accepted. And I'm not seeing a strong reaction from the international community. I'm not seeing a strong reaction. This has nothing to do with, oh, it's Iran, it's Russia. The international community has to condemn this attack as an attack to a sovereign country that has its issues.

1:04:59I myself think it is a dictatorship, and I think the Maduro is, but we cannot accept this. And they're talking already about doing it in, watch out, Colombia, watch out Cuba, all this stuff. So anyway, but it is. Yeah, it is. It is dangerous. It is dangerous. It's very I'm very concerned about that. Last question on a happier note is this is a pretty amazing moment for you personally. I will say you were the first South American to win the Best Actor Prize at Cannes, the first Latino to win the New York Film Critics Circle Best Actor Prize. you're nominated for Best Actor, Critics' Choice and Golden Globe Awards, first Brazilian ever nominated in the category that you're nominated in at the Golden Globes, SAG and Academy Awards.

1:05:47You won't say it, but I'll say it. Looking forward to that. But what is this moment like for you to be kind of, you've experienced a lot of success and you've received nominations and things in the past, but I feel like this has got to be different. And just wondering how you're feeling. I know you're also already on to other things, or you're working on other things, but just what's this moment like to be you? It's great. It's a wonderful moment in my life. I don't like the word career. It's my life. It's a great moment for Brazilian cinema. Because also under Bolsonaro, there was this cultural war where he very effectively managed to transform artists into the enemies of the people in Brazil.

1:06:33That's not my chance that I was playing this play in Brazil a month ago, an Enemy of the People adaptation of that. And it's beautiful to see Brazilians engaged right now in saying, like, these artists, like what happened to them, still here, last year, Walter Salis, Fernando Torres, Brazilian singer. No country develops without the notion of culture, without seeing. We have to see ourselves in our production. And I think it's beautiful that we are living this moment. And so it means a lot for me personally, for my life, for what I've been building in my career. I like to look back at the things that I've done and I see some coherence, you know, and I like that.

1:07:13And I can't deny that I feel proud of that. But I feel very happy with Brazil, with this being a Brazilian film, receiving all this attention. That's great. As you know, I thought terrific. and this and so many other things and excited you're going to direct again. And anyway, thank you so much for coming in and doing this. Thank you, man. It was very nice to talk to you. It's always great to talk to you. You too. Thank you. Thank you.

1:07:50Thanks for listening to Awards Chatter. We really appreciate it and would really appreciate you taking just a minute more to subscribe to the podcast and to leave us a rating and review on your podcast app. and to follow us on Twitter and Instagram, where our handle is at Awards Chatter. On those platforms, we announce upcoming guests and provide details about special live recordings of the podcast that you can attend. Until next time, thanks again for tuning in.