PATREON PREVIEW - Die, Workwear! Ryan Devens on How a Good Suit Is Actually Made

0:00Ryan Devens: Hey folks, it's Jeremy, the host of Blamo. Thanks so much for listening. This is a preview of one of our exclusive shows on Patreon. These are member-supported shows, meaning they only happen because of our incredible members and community. So check out a preview of the episode, and if you like it, consider joining us on Patreon at patreon.com forward slash blamo, where we have tons of exclusive Blamo episodes, shows, our amazing Slack group, and we're adding new things for members all the time. If not, no worries. We still love you. And we literally have hundreds of episodes of Blamo, all free for you to dive into.

0:36Ryan Devens: Thanks so much.

0:59Ryan Devens: no at least it's been at least 10 years because i came to you first when i was an apprentice that's right and i put in the electrical yes you did lighting work for me i did some lighting work yeah and trade and trade for pants and trade for some amazing which sadly i do not fit in anymore um but yeah that's yeah it's been a long time how you doing i'm good i'm good yeah we just had our

1:22Derek Guy: uh our party with uh with matt haranik last night we were out late so that's a great guy he'll keep you out for a long time. I'm dragging, but I feel good. I feel good. I'm glad to be here with you guys.

1:32Ryan Devens: Well, I think it's awesome that there is a bespoke tailoring house here in San Francisco, but most people don't know that you do bespoke, but you have been doing bespoke for quite some time, but bespoke and made to measure. I should clarify.

1:46Derek Guy: Yeah.

1:47Ryan Devens: And has that always been the case? Has that changed over the years?

1:52Derek Guy: Yeah. Not to go too far back. I want to be sort of like concise, But, you know, I don't know if you remember when we first started, we were doing, you know, made to measure and we were also doing alterations on outside garments. So, you know, that was something that we did for many years. I mean, we've been around for almost 12 now. But so alterations was like the first five plus years of our business in addition to custom. Yeah. So there was a point where we decided to move away from alterations and focus more on custom work. And so we had dabbled a little bit in Bespoke at the time, but we just didn't have time to really refine the program.

2:30Derek Guy: But now that we only do custom work, Bespoke is we have more time. And especially in the pandemic, when the pandemic had had a lot of time on my hands. And so I was able to kind of go back to the drawing board and redevelop Bespoke and kind of make it into the program that it is today.

2:46Peter G. McNaughton: What does it mean to develop a Bespoke program? What was the process?

2:49Derek Guy: Yeah, really good question. um so you know there's a couple ways to do bespoke uh one i think some some tailors really fly by the seat of their pants it could be you know the the same guy that does the fitting also does the sewing and the cutting and the pattern making i feel like you can't do it all so those those situations can sometimes lead to different results um her garment um you know it can be stressful to do everything um all into the same you know uh job um but for us you know when i say develop a program, just developing a process, a point of view, a house style, a house cut. And I think one of the last times I spoke with one of you guys, we had kind of developed like a house pattern, like a house fit as well, that has really dramatically improved our starting place for fittings.

3:37Derek Guy: We don't use it for everybody, but a lot of other tailors that I admire have like a, you know, a house cut that they'll at least start you in. And if you're super out of spec, then of course they're going to like really take it, um, and change it. But for us, you know, um, we've, we've tried to develop a pattern that actually fits a lot of people really well, especially for this market to a little bit more rolled forward shoulder, a higher arm hole, um, a little bit more relaxed in the shoulder, uh, drop shoulders, not as like high of a shoulder, or a little bit less padding, lighter canvas.

4:10Peter G. McNaughton: Computer worker cut. Computer worker cut. Desk worker cut. I wasn't going to say that.

4:15Derek Guy: Cubicle farmer cut. Kind of, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It leans forward with you. Okay, yeah. Nerd cut.

4:23Peter G. McNaughton: Yes. So when we're talking, usually when I think of the term house style, I think of the general aesthetic that a company specializes in, but it sounds like you have a block pattern. Yes and no.

4:34Derek Guy: I, you know, it's, it's like, it's there if we need it. So, but, but we don't rely on it for every single person. Um, you know, what we'll do is if, if someone's a 40 and we put them in the 40 and they love it, why would I need to completely rebuild the pattern from scratch? Um, I'm still going to make them a paper pattern with their name drawn on it. Um, and we can change anything about it. We want to, I mean, if they have, you know, sports injury, if they, if they have a really dropped shoulder, things like that, of course, we're going to adjust. Um, or even if their arms swing different ways or have different pitches or whatever it is.

5:10Derek Guy: And especially with like style stuff too. I mean, like lapel shapes, all that, that's all adjustable. But, you know, I mean, like I said, if someone really needs like a completely overhauled brand new pattern, we will do that. It's not a problem.

5:23Ryan Devens: Do you do that by hand or on the cloth or with the computer?

5:27Derek Guy: So we do a paper pattern first and then we'll strike it and then cut. But it It depends. Like if the person is a really difficult fit, then we'll typically do like a muslin or sometimes we'll even do like a wool fitting, like a worsted wool that actually does have similar drape to the real thing. Sometimes muslin doesn't really give you a good enough indication because it's like too thin and it doesn't have canvas or anything like that. So we use, you know, like a, like a cheaper worsted wool and we'll make either the whole thing out of it or just the sleeves or just the body just depends on, you know, the person.

5:59Derek Guy: But yeah, you don't want to cut into a really expensive fabric until you know that the shoulder slope and the arm holes correct.

6:05Ryan Devens: So there's a vicuña just hanging about. Do you mind if I use that?

6:09Derek Guy: Yeah. I want you to go straight to finish on this. I don't want to do any. I don't have time for a pattern.

6:14Peter G. McNaughton: It sounds like so in my mind, the traditional bespoke setup is you just go in, you get measured. They, you know, strike your pattern, cut the cloth and then do three fittings. And in the made to measure operation, oftentimes there is a pre-made garment. Sometimes not, though. a lot of made-to-measure spots don't have this, but I think ideally the made-to-measure spot has a pre-made block that they then use to produce ready-made garments. You go into the store, you try on those garments and you see how you look and feel in those clothes. And you ideally with the fitter say, I think I need an extra inch across the shoulder.

6:49Peter G. McNaughton: I would like to shorten the jacket, a quarter inch or whatever it is. It sounds like your bespoke program is those two things combined where you have a pre-made block with items that are made on that block. The person can come in, put on the jacket, see how they look and feel in that pre-made block, then adjust it, but you still are getting a handmade garment and three fittings. Is that correct? Yeah. And if the person puts on the garment and let's say that they're 6 '5", 48 chest, you know, 32 waist, just like a, you know, unusual build, then you would strike a completely new pattern for that person.

7:25Peter G. McNaughton: That makes sense.

7:26Derek Guy: Or if the posture was totally opposite of our kind of house posture. If someone was like, you know, again, like super upright, you know, no hunch at all, like no slope, like if it was something completely opposite from what our house quote pattern is, then yeah, we're going to start completely.

7:42Peter G. McNaughton: What is the adjustment like for working with someone with forward pitch shoulders and a forward pitch neck?

7:47Derek Guy: Like what's the adjustment in the pattern you mean? Yeah. That's me, isn't it? Yeah, no, that's Peter for sure.

7:55Ryan Devens: So, okay, so. despite the fact that i've worked for many years in construction despite the fact that peter's

8:01Derek Guy: jacked um yeah he still has four shoulders uh anyway so um okay so let's the best way to explain this is like if peter were to put on a standard fit jacket let's say like i don't know a suit supply or something like that if you put on a 40 42 you're gonna see dragging across the front arm hole uh you're gonna see like a diagonal line going from the armhole to the neck uh where that fabric is trying to collapse on itself in the front the back across the back and the blades typically is going to be really tight um because you know his shoulder is really pushing forward um so it's you know fabric's gathering here fabric is stressed in the back so uh so that's what we tend to look for to notice something like that um and then the the collar ends up being very tight so you tend to see uh sort of drag lines across the neck point and then sometimes you'll even see a collar roll in the back because the collar is under so much stress that it starts to lift up.

8:54Derek Guy: So ways to fix that. Usually you need to lengthen the collar a little bit for someone that has forward shoulders. You need to adjust the neck points. And then in the pattern, the armhole shape actually needs to be kind of tilted forward like an egg because an armhole is really like an egg. So it kind of just like slightly tilts forward and then it creates more clearance in the front. But when you do that, you also have to recut the sleeve too, because the armhole of the sleeve has to match up with the jacket. Um, so sometimes I see that happen in alterations, uh, where, you know, if, if something like that needs to be done and the sleeves not done the same way, then those two pieces are incongruent.

9:31Derek Guy: They don't match and you're going to have a problem somewhere. Um, so for somebody like you, like when you make the body separately, so this is the way we would usually fit you. We would make the body first. We would address all that forward shoulder stuff with typically no collar on or like a canvas collar. Cause you know, if you make a collar then you have to make another collar if you have to make a collar way bigger or you leave seam allowance in the edges and then you can let it out um so in that case we would make sure that the body armhole is correct um that it's comfortable when you know your shoulder when your shoulders roll forward there's no tension across the back and then at that point then we would cut sleeve so sometimes what we'll do if we're really trying to make sure it's right we will cut a dummy sleeve right we do a basted sleeve uh with like a different fabric because again a sleeve if it's wrong, you have to make another one and you know, you can let it out and do other things, but you might have to start over.

10:20Derek Guy: So, um, instead of using your fabric, especially if it's plaid, then you're really using a lot of fabric to match the plaids up. So then you, you could just use a black or a Navy from something else, make sure the pitch is right, make sure the armhole is correct, that it matches. Once that happens, then you can actually cut the real thing. So it is like an iterative process. Um, especially if it's, you know, a person that's really outside of the, of the house cut um you know yeah we're gonna we're gonna go back a stage um and we're gonna sort of start with uh like your own kind of fit pattern and then iterate from there can i ask about the

10:51Peter G. McNaughton: construction i obviously it's a full canvas garment do you also use hair cloth and demet for the structure yeah and also padding for the shoulders yes um light pad for the shoulder um

11:02Derek Guy: we don't you know like i know some other tailors uh out there um including ones that i love and admire, um, do use a lot of padding in the shoulder to sort of lift the shoulder up to sort of combat the sloping. And, um, and you know, it, it, it does end up looking like a really clean garment when there's more structure. Um, but like our market and SF is relaxed. We're more like laid back here. People like softer things. They like to feel more comfortable. They like a little bit more flex. So our house style, um, has minimal padding, you know, if someone really wants the rope shoulder or whatever, we'll do it, of course.

11:34Derek Guy: Um, but you know, the, the standard for us is, is a lighter construction in the canvas too, not a multi-layer canvas. I mean, we're using the least amount possible to still get good shape in the chest. And then, yeah, it's going to continue all the way to the bottom of the jacket in the front.

11:51Peter G. McNaughton: Does that include the felt between the hair cloth and the person's body? Yeah. Okay. Is the person who cuts the pattern the same person that makes the coat or do you have separate cutters and coat makers?

12:01Derek Guy: So our operation is pretty lean. So I do all the fittings for Bespoke. trousers jackets waistcoats whatever and then we have one singular uh pattern maker um who is the same as our cutter and uh and coat maker as well and trouser maker so it's so i do the fitting and

12:19Peter G. McNaughton: then he basically does everything else that is supposedly as i've heard it and i i think it's changed now but supposedly way back in the day uh in london they've always used a kind of like modular setup in the kind of like adam smith kind of yes but in the very old hong kong setup there were some shops that one person made your entire jacket. Although some places now, like WW Chan, still have broken that system up. So one person does whatever, collar, so on and so forth. But in the very old Hong Kong system, supposedly, there was like just one person who made your garment from straight to finish.

12:54Ryan Devens: That's kind of how it is in Italy. There's most of the, not all of them. There's bigger bespoke houses like Rubenacci, obviously. But the smaller ones are just, they do everything. They're taught how to do everything. and they do everything because there is no system like they have in London where they can send it out to a coat maker or a trouser maker. They have to do everything. They'll have apprentices and helpers, but even those are taught how to do everything.

13:18Peter G. McNaughton: What's the process of finding someone who can do all those skills in San Francisco?

13:24Derek Guy: Not really possible, which I think is why I was going to say, some was just the, you know, the necessity of the situation. Like we, we, we don't have a copious amount of resources. You know, it's like, yeah, if we, if, if we were London, you know, Savile Row and there were students coming through there all the time that wanted to have their own businesses eventually, and they needed somewhere to apprentice and learn. Yeah. They would be, it would be easy to find talent, but we're an SF, you know, the main, the main business here is technology. You know, if anything, you're, you're, you're getting people asking, okay, well, how can I automate this?

13:59Derek Guy: How, how can I use AI to make a pattern or whatever? It's like, no one wants to know or learn how to make something from scratch. Um, so, you know, for us, it's, they'd rather give it to the expert, having that singular system like we have, like, you know, um, I'm, I guess like you would call like the fitter and designer. Um, and you know, I'm also the one saying, okay, we want a handmade buttonhole, but we want it to be this type of handmade buttonhole. We want it to look like this. Uh, we want the, we want the lapel to have quote belly sometimes these tailors they don't know what that what those what that lingo and terminology means to them like it's just a suit that they need to make a certain way um so it's kind of become my job to sort of help translate those different styles and you know different aesthetics because that's just a whole different skill set to know what those things are versus how to make a suit from scratch um not a ton of crossover i mean again there there are in you know if you're in italy or you're in london i mean there's there's people that can do both um But even then, it's not efficient to do both.

14:58Derek Guy: It's better to have one person focus on design, aesthetic, building a house style or whatever. And then another person that's highly skilled in construction and pattern making to do those things. Otherwise, it's just too much for one person to take on.

15:12Peter G. McNaughton: Can I ask where your made-to-measure clothes are made?

15:14Derek Guy: Yeah, absolutely. So made-to-measure, we've gone through a lot of different iterations with our makers. We very first started in the beginning. we were American made with Southwick. We all know the sort of demise of Southwick and what happened there. Brooks Brothers, you know, bought them and then things didn't work out. So that was our original suit maker. But want to hear the rest?

15:40Ryan Devens: Listen to the full episode and many more other exclusive episodes over on our Patreon. Visit patreon.com forward slash blammo to sign up and join the Blam fam. You also get access to our exclusive members only Slack group where we chat about this and a ton of other things. So head over to patreon.com forward slash blamo and we'll see you there.