A Serious Man with Marc Maron

17:35Griffin Newman:Well that's I need to talk about that line That's a very important line Who cares about The Goy Who cares about The Goy

17:40David Sims:He's kind of taken off guard because he's refocused his attention so much to the teacup that the idea that this guy's still hung up on the story is surprising to him Yeah, because the story is a story he's told a million times. And the closure of that story, it's not about the story ending. It's about some sort of strange, I don't know if you would call it, it's not really an allegory. But it's a fairly classic Hasidic tale where you're waiting for an end, but there is never an end. It's a microcosm for the whole movie, and it's the same as the fake Yiddish tale at the beginning of the movie. Well, those are all those stories, like that Martin Buber translation of the Hasidic Tales.

18:20And Woody Allen was definitely kind of preoccupied with some of that as well, that there is no conclusion, really, that is satisfying in the way of an ending. No. And I tried to, when re-watching Serious Man to talk to you guys, like I was really trying to understand on some, you know, story level why they opened with that. The fable. The fable. Oh, that's what, the fable. That's the word I'm looking for. And it does have implications for the actual story of a serious man. But it's still peculiar. It's a peculiar story because, you know, when the rabbi walks back out into the night with the ice pick in his chest, it is not conclusive.

19:09Like he's saying he might be going to die. He's going to be dead. Right. And she's completely confident in her assessment of the situation. But there is zero resolution.

19:18David Sims:You don't know if this guy's going to die, if he's supernatural or not, and whether or not it's going to come back to them either way. Yes. And they were they've been very adamant when they talk about this movie that they were like, this feels like the kind of thing that should open with a Yiddish folktale. Yeah. They looked around. They didn't find one they liked. And they wrote one. They wrote one. Right. And they've been like, it has nothing to do with the movie at large. It doesn't link in. A lot of critics at the time were like, I think they're being sneaky. And this is some like ancestor of the family.

19:47David Sims:And everything that's happening to this guy is the long tail curse of that, which I don't think it is. I think it's more just about the idea of these things happened to us. There's no reason why it happened to us. We did nothing to bring it upon ourselves and we'll have no sense of resolution at the other end of it. Judaism is a search for meaning in darkness.

20:06Griffin Newman:Yes. And that often the story you will be told is one of suffering and you're like, oh, okay. And then what happened? And they're like, I don't know, more suffering later.

20:16David Sims:I mean, the fact that all of Judaism basically was retroactively turned into the prequel for Christianity, right? You never think about that. The Old Testament is like—

20:27Griffin Newman:That we're a bit of a retcon as a religion.

20:29David Sims:But also our religion is like Star Wars up until the ending of Empire Strikes Back where everything's really bad. And then Christianity was like, and what if a guy came along and kind of fixed it and slowly taught us lessons that gave us a sense of optimism? But I think more than optimism, it's the humanness. Yes. That bridges the gap between the celestial and the human. And it also makes it user-friendly. Yes. Because, you know, with Old Testament Judaism, there, you know, everyone always talks about the, you know, the vengeful God and this God or the angry man in the sky. But I think in that same conversation with the T, that was his name, was it Nussbaum, that rabbi that Wiener played?

21:11Griffin Newman:Well, you know, what he says that I think is the key to one of the keys to the movie is that it's not up to us to decide, you know, what God is intended. It's up to us to live. You know, he's not going to give us answers. Right. We just have to honor the rules. Right. And I think that's sort of the key to the whole thing.

21:37David Sims:Which the building blocks of all religions are basically like children's tales to teach you lessons on how to behave. That's right. They're like just-so stories and Grimm's fairy tales. The Ten Commandments are just basic rules for civilization. They know that if you fuck your neighbor's wife that that's going to probably end in murder or somebody's going to lose their land.

21:58Griffin Newman:Much of the Old Testament, right. It's just kind of like that. Yeah, because that's the whole thing with all the kosher stuff where you're like, that stuff will get you sick. It's 4 ,000 B.C. That's right. Don't be eating bottom-feeding shellfish.

22:07David Sims:Are you going to pour milk on top of a pig? What the fuck are you doing? It's crazy. Yeah. But they're just rules to maintain order in a community. And then in the vacuum of a direct relationship or direct conversation with God in modern society and us spending thousands of years going back to the original text, we keep trying to put more and more on them. And this guy keeps on going to rabbis and being like, explain to me why this is happening. And they don't view it that way. And he just keeps thinking, I'll get to a higher rabbi who's in touch with something deeper, who gives me the perspective.

22:39David Sims:And the highest rabbi who won't talk to him will only talk to his son. Because he has to. Because it's the only thing he does. Basically ceremonial job. Yeah. The only thing he wants to talk about is like Jefferson Starship kind of slaps, right?

22:52Griffin Newman:Airplane. Fuck. Excuse me.

22:53David Sims:Airplane. But he does the lyric and then he goes, now what? Yeah. But also the Jesus thing is really, you know, you can talk to Jesus. Yeah. And there's a set of answers.

23:06Griffin Newman:Right. You can say, hey, Jesus, thumbs up, thumbs down. Well, no, I fucked up. Forgive me. Right. And that too. It's built into the structure where they're like, this is how you talk to Jesus. He's always listening. Yep. And I did a bad thing. Forgive me. And then the priest will forgive you or the Jesus you have in your head will forgive you. You're pre-approved. Yes. But you know you're flawed. Yep. And that also is fully Old Testament. Yes. It's just chaos. And nobody can follow these rules completely. unless they're enforced by modern laws like murder and some of the other ones. But everyone's flawed.

23:39Everyone's going to fluctuate. And that's just the nature of people. And that's a given. And I think people want more answers than that.

23:46David Sims:Yes. And the sense of forgiveness is not built into the same, the Old Testament in the same way. So the idea that you're flawed comes with the recognition of failure. And the weight of it. The weight of it. And the constant. I tried to be a serious man. That's right. And the constant conversation, whether it's Talmudic or it's just Jews argue with God all the time. Yes. Jews defy God all the time. Yes. And either they get what's coming to them or they don't. Right. But either way, they feel bad about it. That is the cornerstone of Jewish guilt. Or they succeed tremendously. Yes. And you have to assume that they'll feel bad, but they might not.

24:21Something's eating them up inside.

24:22David Sims:Who knows? Right. But they might not. That's the scariest part. Yeah. But the thing that struck me about rewatching it, because it's one of those movies I keep going back to, And I have a certain, you know, there is something familiar to the beginning of middle class Jewry, you know, in terms of, you know, the kind of once Jews are reluctantly invited into the community or the social circle is just regular people. So you were New Jersey and New Mexico, right? Yeah. Yeah. My parents are from Jersey, but I grew up in New Mexico. And there was at the time we moved there in my temple. There's probably 500 families.

24:58It was a similar kind of on-clay culture within a culture. This is conservative, middle-class Jewish. And I've talked about this a lot lately, is that many Jews, the identification, it's not that it's all cultural. It is still religious. But most Jews were never taught, unlike Christianity, to sort of have an active and sort of practical relationship with God. Yeah. That, you know, usually it was more about Israel and about, you know, ritual and about, you know, showing up occasionally in the community. But that is the nature of Judaism. Yes. But we, you know, even in terms of like, you know, is there a heaven or hell?

25:38It's never been made clear to me. They don't know. No, they don't know. But he talks about it. He talks about some of the deeper Talmudical stuff of the different possibilities of post-death. Yeah. And then you assume that the Kabbalah, which is this uncrackable code, has some sort of a deeper understanding of the mystical. Yeah. Which is what, and in this movie, that is what Richard Kind represents. Yes. Is that he is writing the Kabbalah. Yes. And there is a moment where you're like, oh, this is a schizophrenic. This guy has mental problems. Right. And then he turns to the page where there's a Hebrew in the middle of it.

26:11Yeah. That he's trying to decipher in his, you know, either slightly schizophrenic sense, you know, he's trying to make sense of the universe. And he's obviously jealous of his brother, who is a mathematician, who is a guy whose job it is to get the answer. So the control freak element of the of the main character is is built into the mathematician thing that as a character. Why wouldn't that guy want answers? And the idea that he can't get answers for a guy that is, you know, has done the work to get the answers is kind of a great character. And in the dream about what's his name? The guy who's having an affair with his wife.

26:52Oh, where he's at the blackboard, the massive blackboard. Cy Abelman. Cy Abelman. Where he writes out the uncertainty principle. The uncertainty principle.

26:59Griffin Newman:Well, that is modern Talmud or whatever. Like that is like mathematicians being like, let me explain to you why nothing makes sense about the world. It was the other line I thought about.

27:08David Sims:But what a perfect piece of writing. The uncertainty principle. It provides we can't ever really know what's going on. So it shouldn't bother you not being able to figure anything out, although you will be responsible for this on the midterm. Right. Yeah. And then in that dream, you know, Sai, who is now a Dybbuk. No longer with us. Yes. Yes. That's a great point. He has basically become a Dybbuk in this guy's life. That's right. And in the dream, you know, that what sort of eventually happens is I know he's calm until, you know, he's like, I fucked your wife. Right, right. So that is the human, like, it's all, the whole movie is just different versions of that opening Yiddish scene.

27:49That these are all those stories. Yes, exactly. That's the point of the opening. And I also think Judaism is like,

27:56Griffin Newman:what should we do? Yes. You know, like most conversations you're having. Mm-hmm.

28:06David Sims:Alienware's back-to-school event is the perfect time to score top gaming gear with incredible features and Intel Core processors to go beyond performance. Lord knows I'm stressed about returning to school. You can save big on gaming desktop laptops, and more. Start your Alienware journey with the Alienware 15 gaming laptop featuring Intel Core processors. Smoothly game, live stream, and multitask for hours on end. Plus, play through every game exactly how you want with customizable AlienFX lighting across your Alienware ecosystem, creating your very own gaming profile and more. We're talking full disclosure.

28:46David Sims:Finally, pair your incredibly smooth gaming experience with immersive visuals and sound by saving on sleek Alienware monitors, headsets, and more. The world deserves to know. This limited time sale awaits you now at Alienware.com slash deals. That's Alienware.com slash deals.

29:16David.

29:17David Sims:Yes. I'm just speaking for myself here. Okay. I cannot speak for anyone else. Good. Me personally, in my lived experience, summer does change the way I get dressed. Oh, yeah. Right. You do it backwards all other times of year. I wear fewer parkas in the summer. That's true. The long underwear stays in the closet. Just some puffer jackets. I wear a couple. Do I wear the snow boots? Three days out of the week, not all seven. in. You know, at summertime you want the pieces that feel lighter, more breathable. I'm joking, of course. I sweat so much. I need light, breathable things and I love a weather that is conducive to that.

29:55Griffin Newman:Maybe some linen. Some soft, organic cotton.

29:59David Sims:I do like the sound of that.

30:00Griffin Newman:Well, Quince focuses on high quality essentials like that. They're going to feel, they're going to look amazing. Maybe you want Quince European linen pants and shirts. Okay, starting at just$34. Everything at Quince's price 50 % to 80 % less than similar brands because they work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen so you're paying for quality, not brand markup. And they go way beyond clothing. They've got sofas. They got coke wear. They got bedding. You're going to recommend this brand for everything truly as someone with a Quinn's comforter. Can I share a product that I really love from Quinn?

30:33Griffin Newman:Please, Ben, go. Please, please, I beg of you. An organic Turkish waffle robe. That's right, fellas. I get out of the shower. Maybe I need this. Instead of just toweling off, I'm throwing a robe over my ass. Yeah, your wife must love that. Yep. And I got it in a color. It's a green color. Moss. Moss. I like these names for the colors. Well, elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com slash check for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns now available in Canada too. That's quince.com slash check for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash check.

31:18David Sims:This film, My Mother, was... It's a blank check with Griffin and Dave, by the way. I'm Griffin. I'm David. It's a podcast about filmographies, directors who have massive success early on in their careers and are given a series of blank checks. I like how this was prompted by me saying, My Mother.

31:31Griffin Newman:Go ahead.

31:32David Sims:Yeah. Sometimes those check clear and sometimes they bounce baby. This is a miniseries on the films of the Coen brothers, Joel and Ethan Coen. Yep. It is called Pod Country for Old Casts. Sure. today we were talking about a serious man yep with mark maron hi mark as i was sort of setting up uh we're gonna use all that stuff ever all of this oh yeah we don't edit it's all staying in uh burn after reading comes out like six months after they win the oscar yeah this is the first movie they make with the oscar success correct one of their best movies i think it's arguably their best but what it is certainly in the argument they're guys where you're like there are five movies that would be undeniably the best film in anyone else's career and those five

32:13Griffin Newman:movies are fighting with each other i think they've got 10 so they never they never buckled

32:19David Sims:under what we talked about before that's what i'm saying and for this to be the post oscar winning movie when most people would go now is my time to make true grit my big western epic they wait to do that they were like we got to tell this weird small kind of punishing story with theater actors, with no movie stars. And with complete, meticulous control of the story, and it's still sort of totally a Coen Brothers movie. But it's an interesting example. They never, and it seems like they've sort of stopped working together. They're in a weird place. There's rumors that they'll read it. But that could be done.

32:56Why not go out? You know, like, how are you going to argue with any other? I even watched The Hudsucker Proxy again. One of my favorite movies. It's a great movie. I love it so much. You forget that you buckle to reaction without having the personal experience to other people's reaction to it. But when you rewatch it, they did exactly what they set out to do.

33:14David Sims:Yeah, it is a perfect movie on the terms that they set out for themselves which people were just confused by.

33:20Griffin Newman:Obviously, their interviews were always a little nit and cryptic, but they are not guys who are like, ah, that one, we could have used another week on that one. Or like, ah, we fucked that one in the interview. No, complete control. They gave you what they wanted.

33:30David Sims:Let's see what's the only one where they're like, it feels a little amateurish to us because we didn't know what we were doing. Blood Simple. Their first movie. It's great, though. It's great. Yeah, it rocks. But that's the only one where they're like, I watched some of it and I wish I'd done it differently because I just didn't know. But they were finding their way. I watched Miller's Crossing the other, like, couple weeks ago. Great. It's great. Yes. It's great. So your mother, Judaism?

33:53Griffin Newman:You can get to that later if you want. No, we got to get into it now. Yeah, my mother was raised in Utica, New York. I think you know that. Of state New York. And I think it's similar to what you're talking about. Of, like, there were Jews. city at that time but like there's enough jews and she's conserved it's the 50s yeah this is the exact same shit i think and i don't think i've ever seen a movie have a more profound you know proustian eating the madeline effect on her than this movie ever yeah because the whole thing is a poet it's a meditation on on the the picket fence americanism of judaism the struggle of judaism at the same time and it's what about the goy is the line where she was like you have to understand man, we didn't care about the goy.

34:34Griffin Newman:Like the goys. They get that so much.

34:37David Sims:And now the goys know it and they're angry. We're all going to pay. Now everyone's living next door to the guy from this movie. That's right. The guy next door isn't gritting his teeth and saying it under his breath. They named her Ellen.

34:47Griffin Newman:Like they picked the most American name. They sent her to the public schools. They wanted her to be as American as possible or whatever. But at the same time, like I feel like there was that, well, we don't really care about the goys.

34:56David Sims:So my dad grew up in Rye, New York. Sure. Lower. Yeah. In the state. Right. But it was a similar thing where it was like three Polish families, cousin families that all immigrated together, bought like a row of houses and basically made their own neighborhood. Sure. And then became friends with like three other families that had done the same thing. Mega family groupings. Right. And my grandfather was like the dirty Hungarian who broke in and basically had to abandon his family. Yeah. In order for them to accept him. so it was the newmans the rabinowitz's and the orlovskies and the rabinowitz's were atheists in the like 1950s sure and that was this sort of like don't say it too loudly well yeah there were there there were atheists there were uh communists yep like my uh great aunt and uncle were of the you know kind of communist bent yes uh old timey uh commie jews yeah uh there was a lot a lot going on in terms of jewish identity then but i think one of the things that i take away from this film and watching it again is that it really documents in a very unique and specific way, you know, something that has been approached before, is that the changing of the culture towards, you know, the 60s coming in.

36:14Yes. Because that Jefferson Airplane album is already out. So this has got to be what year? It's got to be like, what, 65? I think it's 67. Yeah, 67. 67. So everything is on the precipice of change. Right. Yeah.

36:25Griffin Newman:It's going to take a minute to get to Minnesota. But it's happening on the coast. But it's happening in middle class culture because they're picking it up from youth culture. Yes. And the kid is on the pulse of it. And the fact that during the dental story, they're playing Hendrix's machine gun is crazy. Yes. Because that song is a very specific meaning. Yeah. And, you know, and whatever it indicates about signs or symbols. Yeah. But during that whole song, the scene, the Hebrew lettering, help me, please help. It's like, why that choice? And I think that what they're exploring, even at the end with the old rabbi, is that it's at that time where the chaos that has now reaped the social reaction that we're seeing now to the, quote unquote, freedom of the 60s and the open-mindedness that it implied.

37:20is that that was an embracing of a chaos that none of them could understand. And that it became a cultural movement to sort of, you know, not just anti-war, but psychedelics. Yes. Right? And the idea of pot. And that, like, when he's up on the roof with that antenna and all of a sudden he has that moment where Hebrews coming in, TV shows are coming in, you know, sounds of the Yiddish are coming in. And then he looks to the sun that you're caught in the middle of a tremendous cultural shift that's about to happen. And that at the end of it, the old rabbi is, you know, he understands that. Right.

37:57He understands that moment when the truth is revealed to be lies. You know, he's like, what? But also, what's the only thing that matters?

38:06David Sims:You want somebody to love. Like, basically, that hits somebody's life. He doesn't get that far. Right. That's true. He doesn't get that far. But you have to imagine that's the thing that kind of locked in for him is this song is identifying. Isn't that kind of the core need that all of us are driven by at the end of the day? I guess so. But I do like the idea that on the periphery of Jewish mysticism in general and Jewish stories in general is something unknowable, but something that must be sort of accepted as just life. And now, you know, all over this movie, we're entering this psychedelic era where that unknown that was once terrifying is now going to be just embraced.

38:47And you're just going to throw yourself into it. And with that comes Vietnam on the other side. But I think that the way that's suggested and referred to in the film as this slight, you know, kind of it's not meant to be menacing, but it is happening. Yes. In the scene where she smokes pot with him. Yeah, absolutely. And he's just looking at the glass. Yeah. And then he says, and that's the psychedelic moment. Yes. It's bonafide. They shot it that way. And he's just looking at the glass. And he says, maybe the young rabbi was right. The first rabbi. It's just all my perception.

39:22David Sims:Well, they also do. They shoot that scene with this vignetting around the edges of the frame. And I think the only other scene in the movie they shoot that way is the folktale at the beginning.

39:31Griffin Newman:Interesting.

39:32David Sims:They're the two kind of hallucinations. What were you about to say? I was going to open the dossier. Can I say a thing before that? Okay. What's the dossier? Is this a bit?

39:39Griffin Newman:No. No, this is real. This is a no-bits podcast. A researcher who does great work for us, you know, digging up sort of production history and stuff like that.

39:47David Sims:I was just going to say, because you talking about your mom made me realize, I don't think my dad's ever seen this movie. That's insane. I'm also realizing that he basically, I think, would have been bar mitzvahed this exact year. Same with my mom. I mean, I think she's bar mitzvahed. I mean, I think she's bar mitzvahed. They used it there, too. Oh, yes. on the pulpit. Yes, you're right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. When he's stoned. The two scenes where characters are stoned. And the psychedelic moments are shot the same way as the folks.

40:10Griffin Newman:Because it so captures what it's like to be high on pot. Especially when you're a teenager. But to be high on pot at that moment, that is crazy. In front of God, in front of the elders, you're holding the yud, is that what it's called? Yes. I think, you know, the scraping sound of the yud that they do. My favorite thing is the guy going like to get the Torah out. Those things are fucking heavy. The old guy. Yeah. But the pressure of that moment and then sort of like, you know, realizing you're high. One of the funniest beats of that movie is when he sees the buddy he got high with. Knowing that he's in that.

40:46It's not even hell. It's a mystical moment. And he taps into an ancient frequency. Yeah. Which is really, that is the God consciousness.

40:55Griffin Newman:Yeah. That's my implication with the, who's the oldest? Oh, I just had that realization. That psychedelia, the chaos of psychedelic experience and the chaos of war in Vietnam, that is all in the God consciousness. That's where Marshak is, supposedly. He's above it. Exactly. Because the inspiration, as you said, Griff, they wrote this the same time as No Country and Burn After Reading. They wrote them all at the same time. Yes. They've said they've never been so productive. Which is in their fellow period.

41:23David Sims:It's coming off of two consecutive flops. They write three masterpieces basically all in a row. What were the flops? Lady Killers and Intolerable Cruelty, which were their sort of two...

41:32Griffin Newman:Intolerable Cruelty I'll stick up for, but certainly their least critically successful movies. I don't even feel compelled to go back to those. Maybe I should. I love Intolerable Cruelty. Intolerable Cruelty is pretty fun. Especially if you like Clooney in Coen's mode, he's great.

41:45David Sims:It's kind of them doing a Preston Sturges movie. Okay. But those movies at the moment were absolutely flops. That's all I'm saying. And it was seen as them trying to level up and make more commercial studio films. but that ended up being too idiosyncratic for audiences and critics treated them as if they were selling out.

42:02Griffin Newman:Scott Rudin is like, hey, I've got this Cormac McCarthy novel. They're like, okay, well, look at that. They start working on Burn After Reading at the same time. They start working on this at the same time. And the inspiration for this is what they call like an ancient rabbi that they knew when they were kids who they call like a sort of a Semitic wizard of Oz, like this weird Yoda-like rabbi who was, they all kind of revered, but he never spoke like that's that's the genesis of a serious but this film is set earlier than their childhood would have been right yeah no no no they they'll cop to this is pretty on a photograph for sure

42:35David Sims:it seems like yeah i just remember when it was announced they gotta be like he's got joel's

42:39Griffin Newman:gotta be like 70 they were born correct joel's 70 even 67 so they were born in the mid 50s they're basically like a couple years younger than my mom like and they were bar mitzvahed in 67 yeah Yeah, or Joel was.

42:53David Sims:When this movie was announced, and they usually do kind of an air of mystery around what the project is if it isn't based on some public work.

43:00Griffin Newman:What they say is not autobiographical. It's like, that's not their dad. No. That's not their family. It's just more the milieu.

43:06David Sims:I remember them saying, like, they're going to follow up No Country with a movie about a boy getting bar mitzvahed that's autobiographical. And it really felt like, oh, they're going to do their, like, Avalon, their Fablemans. Right, right. And then when the trailer came out and it was like, it's about the dad, they talked about that at one point it was more split narrative like the boy and the dad in equal measures even though the dad was a complete creation and then the final product ended up swinging wildly in a different direction it's just like what's amazing about it and i really because the more i thought about it this morning i do think that you know outside i think that the the core character struggle of the the main guy is is specifically ten commandment shit yeah And I think the rest of it, the brother is a mystical interpreter that has a mental illness.

43:54Because even as a Jew growing up, you always knew that there was a cousin that had problems.

43:59David Sims:Yeah. But this guy— Who might be a genius. This guy literally covets his neighbor's wife. Totally. All of it.

44:06Griffin Newman:He does hit on those commandments pretty hard. He's coveted. Yeah. But to sort of draft off what Mark was saying, the Coens do say, obviously 67. That's when Joel's 14, Ethan's 10. They like the idea of like Jewish liturgical music and Jefferson airplane were kind of like intertwined for them in that. Two different belief systems, basically. Rock and roll. But they're asking, were they? Yeah. American. Were they different belief systems? Isn't that at the end of all the Jewish stories, there's just this chaos? And there's like a shrug of like, we don't know. We don't know. It's magic, I guess.

44:40Griffin Newman:you know and like but also like uh boomers sort of uh you know the sort of tail end of like conservative like post-war and kind of like the building of radical Jewish American culture right

44:51David Sims:that's kind of assimilation post-war Judaism that's assimilating with the sort of white doctor the lawyer like the old my great cameo by Michael Lerner great incredible but like no one in my dad's is sort of like cousin families right the Rabinowitz's were like outwardly atheistic Like the other ones were like, can you believe it? But weren't casting them out. No one even pretended to have a relationship to God. It was all we got to do this stuff because it's like the dinner scene in in Crimes and Mr. Yes. Yes. Yeah. That's like when my grandfather died, everyone was like, we don't care about this.

45:24David Sims:Right. And even when he was alive, we do like the abridged Seder. Yeah. It was the sense of we got to do this because our ancestors did this. We don't think we're communicating with anything. Yeah. Well, I think that's right. Right. But that that's almost all of it. Absolutely. But part of that was, I think, them being like we cannot be seen as Jews, period. We have to be Jewish Americans, which means our culture needs to be meshed with theirs. We can't be living in our own.

45:52Griffin Newman:But at the same time, you see your neighbor. I think, you know, like your neighbor, the going neighbor looking at you and you're like, right, they don't. I'm never going to be. Trust that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There definitely was a difference. But I remember to be on a swivel. And I remember as a kid that, you know, the bonds that I created with, you know, from second grade on with the Jewish guys, you know, that there was definitely a shorthand. There was a shorthand about sex, about everything. Like there was like an openness and understanding. Like I'm still friends with David Kleinfeld, who like I've known since second grade.

46:26Yeah. And, you know, and I remember because like these are just one that is a good example. Like when we were in second grade, his father was, I think, an ophthalmologist. and was killed flying his own plane. We were in second grade. Yeah. And I remember David, you know, the weeks after that, you know, at Hebrew school and just, you know, I remember seeing his dad sitting in this yellow car on the parking lot, but there was no answers. Right. And, you know, and he had, you know, three brothers and sisters, and I know his mother and everybody else, and life, you know, eventually went on. It was profoundly terrible and yet kind of meaningless.

46:59But he had, we still, the community was still there, and they were still there for all of them for the whole time.

47:03David Sims:Right. Which is also this reactionary, like we're trying to assimilate, but also we need to protect each other because we're not that far off from feeling like we are the target of the universe. Right, from the Holocaust, totally. And it is sort of amazing that there was no Nazi point of reference in this. There was an American Jew-hating reference in a dream, and it's suggested. But it's rare that you see a movie of this era that close to the end of the Holocaust that made no—there was no point of reference. Yeah, yeah. And that's kind of—that's in and of itself kind of amazing. I agree. And it is a testament to passing and to integrating.

47:40Yeah, right.

47:40Griffin Newman:We don't want to talk about it too much. We can't wear it too much. But just the way that he talks about that he can talk with his colleagues who are Jewish and they can use words with each other that they wouldn't use. Slip in a couple. Yeah. But they're writing this story. Initially, it's a kind of father son story. And then as they're writing it, they're like, we really just like tormenting the dad. Like, this is going to be a movie about the dad. Yes. Yeah. And as you say, they claim with the Yiddish folktale, the ghost story, they're just sort of like, eh. It's kind of like an ambassador for the movie.

48:10Griffin Newman:It doesn't have any connection to anything. Whatever.

48:12David Sims:But in that, in that it does. I agree. It teaches you how to watch the movie because as you said, every single scene after it is a version of it in a way. And then ultimately, not unlike those tales, the entire arc of the movie, whatever builds the movie, you know, at the end, you know, it's not a happy ending, but it's an ending. you know it is tragic you know that you know I was talking to Brendan before that and there was a suggestion that as a consequence for him rationalizing keeping the money changing the grade to help his brother the next thing that happens is you know you gotta come in there's something on your x-ray and then a fucking tornado

48:49Griffin Newman:it's how I feel all the time anytime I'm like should I like and then you're just like yeah but no should we start our own wireless service provider but because of the tornado Which is a real tornado. Oh, good. It really happened. To imply that there is consequences that are being delivered to you specifically by a god. It is ultimately, in the conclusion of the movie, does not add up. Right. It is not. Whatever that implication is. You can't actually chart it. This happened because of this. This happened because of that. You're manufacturing it. And early on when he's in conversation with the Korean kid, he's like, there has to be consequences.

49:32And the Korean kid's like, no, there doesn't. There are consequences for your actions. No, there doesn't have to be. It doesn't have to be. That's a choice. And ultimately anything you impose on this in terms of moral consequence is something that you are putting on it. Correct. And that's the nature of the movie and what it's trying to say. That it is all relative to your perception. That all you can do is try to be a decent person. and that you have no control over anything else.

49:59David Sims:Also, for movies that are so fun to read into and analyze and search for meaning in. You could teach a course on this for a year. Absolutely. On this movie. The Coens have always kind of made fun of people who try to break down the symbolism of their films. Sure. Or the intent or what they're trying to say. But this one craves it. Accept the mystery. But then yet, the movie is telling you. To do it. To do it and also accept that you're never going to get answers that satisfy you. The dad says, accept the mystery. It's never going to line up.

50:27Griffin Newman:Yeah. Look, serious. So their last movie, I'm just briefly touching on this research. Obviously, Burn After Reading has a zillion stars in it. They don't have a budget on this movie. Burn After Reading was also a big hit, which people forget. Yeah, 100%. But they really want a lead actor who's basically unknown to the audience. Obviously, Michael Stuhlbarg was sort of a Broadway name-ish, face-ish. Not really. He was a Tony nominee. Now, you know who auditions for this role, right? You can tell me. Marc Maron. I did, yeah. Yeah. Was it for the It was for Larry It was a very low level Did you meet with the Coens?

51:02No, no It was just like that first sort of Throwing out the net I met with the casting agent Ellen Chenoweth? I think so I went in and they taped me I remember I had a full Van Dyke Kind of beard situation But I really wanted it And I really read it And I thought I could do that But I didn't have the chops to do that And I'm not thrilled with their choice of him.

51:26David Sims:Really? Yeah. Well, here's what I thought watching it again last night is that like you would have fit perfectly somewhere in this movie. And I think you would fit in so well in a Coen's movie in general. I think you innately would be too powerful and forceful. I could have gotten to the vulnerability of it. Yes. Yeah. But I think there's even just like a baseline level of indignation within you at the world that you cannot totally diminish. There wasn't really a part in this movie for me unless I really had better chops as an actor then, which I didn't. Yeah. You know, I imagine that I could play the lawyer.

52:06I probably could have played. I think he could have been Arthur.

52:10Griffin Newman:It's a different Arthur. The Richard Cunt. You know, like. Oh, it'd be a different Arthur. Very different. I can see that. Again, just sort of like, what's he doing with the miraculous? That's a wired version of it. That's a beaten man. Yeah, and he's so good. Because he's right. The physicality of kind, like the shoulders. He's so good. And also, like, we had a cousin, Brent. You know, there was just like, you know. There's one in every family. Right. You know, he's Mensa, but he doesn't do anything. Yes. You know. Right. For years, I tried to make a joke work about that. And it actually is sort of a Jewish, you know, open-ended tale joke.

52:45David Sims:Yeah. Where, like, I remember when I was a kid, my dad had this cousin, Brent, who was, like, a genius. That's all we heard. Brent's a genius. He's in Mensa. And at some point during the early 70s, Brent went on to do, he was a chef. Like, you know, not even at a high-end restaurant. The genius. Right. The disappointment. Right. It was always, that was the tone of it. Yeah. And I remember, like, knowing this about Brent. And then him and his girlfriend stopped over in New Mexico when they were driving cross country, you know, to, you know, stay the night. And I just remember it was like, this is the genius.

53:19And he was just this like kind of hippie as dude with this woman. And then when they left before they left to get back on the road, they they they made us breakfast. And my punchline and I really tried to make it work was like and I got to be honest with you. Those are the best eggs I ever had. the genius eggs. Yeah. But it never landed. And I thought, like, how else do you end that story? It's a perfect end to it.

53:45David Sims:But I think you gotta have the experience. That is actually a thing you kind of can't communicate in a way. Yeah. That might be true. I think the kind character is such a heightened version of it that he works in a way that reads for the story even if you don't have someone like this within your family structure. It is also funny to consider that at the time this movie came out, he is undeniably the biggest name.

54:09Griffin Newman:Sure, he's your most famous face, I suppose.

54:11David Sims:I don't know if you remember this.

54:13Griffin Newman:I guess Fred was.

54:14David Sims:I think Fred was really just a guy who was in Woody Allen movies back then. He had done like seven Woody Allen movies and voiceover roles. Like Amy Lanarker had similarly mostly done voiceover. Like half the cast are like local people that were found in Minnesota. Adam Arkin was probably the second biggest. He's really good. He's great.

54:30Griffin Newman:Larry is not cheap. He's just really good at that shit.

54:34David Sims:Do you remember when they announced this movie and all the fucking, like, Oscar prognosticator websites were just like, I guess Richard Kind for Best Supporting Actor, sight unseen. Right, right, like, he'll crush in some Coen's. If the Coens were making another movie and now they're Oscar guys and Kind is in it.

54:49Griffin Newman:Let me tell you about Stolbar.

54:50David Sims:And this is, like, the least Oscar-y part ever, despite how great Kind is. It's not designed to give someone a trophy. And there's also the Kind thing, like, you know, the implied sort of competition between the brothers at one point. Like, obviously, they were both mathematics guys. and Kine's life just didn't work out. So he's doing this like massive schizophrenic project to beat his brother at the same game. And also draining his cyst and like crying.

55:16Griffin Newman:Spacious cyst. That would make me pretty mad. But that's such a, that like. If that's what I ended up having to do every day. I know, but I feel like that's another like thing, like the sort of 50s, 60s where it's like, yeah, people have like a thing. It's also biblical. It's because it feels like a biblical plague. Yeah, no, I know. Yeah, I get you. It's like a weird 60s machine. Oh, right. It's humming motor. Because Joe gets boils. Yeah. Yeah, in the story. Okay, that makes sense. But he's also like, you know, there's a biblical dynamic, a biblical, you know, a biblical brotherly dynamic. Yes.

55:47You know, well, the Cain and Abel thing. Right. You know, but there is something about, you know, the nature of two brothers and one is painfully compromised. Yes. Yet there is still like, and there's a resentment to him. Yes. That, you know, he doesn't direct at his brother, but he directs at God. Yes. But ultimately in that moment at the pool, it's at his brother. It's like, Hashem looked out for you. You have a job. You have, you know, like the jealousy and the fury.

56:17David Sims:And this guy's life, by the way, is crumbling. Like the guy whose life he covets is like absolutely crumbling. But he looks at like you have the firmament of what looks like a normal American life. And I have the homunculus or whatever it is. The mentaculous. The mentaculous. It's a very thought-provoking, deep movie, you know, in so many ways. Like, I'm surprised that it took me kind of moving through it again in the last few days. Because I watched it recently. And I watch it primarily because it's familiar to me. And I never really set out. It is weirdly comforting. Yeah, as a Jew. If you live in our headspace, it is a weirdly comforting movie to watch.

56:57But it's unlike any other Jewish movie. It's unlike any depiction of Jews. And it wasn't until, you know, and I've always sort of half tried to figure it out, but to sort of, you know, put it into some sort of criticism around all the, not just the story, but the characters and also the changing of the eras and the nature of chaos and the nature of coincidence and the nature of trying to have control. Like it's one of those movies and the reason why it's a masterpiece is all of those are touched upon. Everything is touched upon that makes us human and questioning. Yeah. If you do that. Yes. Most people don't.

57:37Yes.

57:42Griffin Newman:David. Yes. Oh, God.

57:46David Sims:This is life throwing another thing at me. Oh, no. Did you catch it? No, I got hit with it. I got pelted pretty hard. It's going to leave a bruise. How's that to-do list? It's tough. It's tough. And life keeps throwing more things at me. Okay.

57:59Griffin Newman:Well, is there maybe something that we could take off your plate, have someone else help you out with? Perhaps a trusted tasker from TaskRabbit.

58:08David Sims:David, I would love nothing more. My ideal life is to do as little as possible. As much as can be off my plate, the happier I am. I have children.

58:19Griffin Newman:I have logistical responsibilities often of like, I need to build a piece of furniture. I need to whatever, you know. You're hearing about this for the first time, but sure, I'll buy into the premise, the bit of this app. And I've used TaskRabbit multiple times for it. It is literally always like, that is the best money I ever spent in my life. We here at Blank Check Productions also recently hired a tasker to help us build. We purchased some new Ikea shelving. Now, why did we do that, Ben? The collectible collection that Griffin has been amassing over many years has sort of gotten out of hand.

58:56David Sims:Broken containment. More shelves were needed. Yes. More shelves need to be constructed. We needed more places to store the various cool things that Griffin has brought into this space.

59:08Griffin Newman:And we were able to easily bring someone over. They did a great job. And it was so easy.

59:15David Sims:To record dang episodes. That's what we're meant to do. We're not going to make you listen to a Patreon building the shelves with JD Amato.

59:23Griffin Newman:Taskers have assembled over 3.4 million pieces of furniture, completed 700 ,000 home repairs, have handled 1.5 million moves and counting. That's quite impressive. Obviously, you know, you guys probably know already, but you can search on TaskRiver for Tasker based on cost, skill set, availability, past client reviews. You know exactly who's showing up. You can have confidence that they know what they're doing. So when life happens, your to-do list grows. Get ahead of it now and get$15 off your first task at TaskRabbit.com or on the TaskRabbit app using promo code CHECK. Taskers book up fast, especially for same-day tasks.

59:59Griffin Newman:So book trusted home help today. That's$15 off your first task using promo code CHECK with the TaskRabbit app or at TaskRabbit.com.

1:00:14David Sims:David, quick question and be honest. I solemnly swear, I will tell the truth and nothing but it. Thank you. When did you last actually think about how much fiber you're eating? I can't say I think about it enough. Actually think about it.

1:00:29Griffin Newman:I don't know. Not recently enough.

1:00:31David Sims:I'm not talking protein. I'm not talking calories. Fiber.

1:00:34Griffin Newman:It's important.

1:00:35David Sims:fiber. In the U.S., fewer than one in ten adults hit their daily recommended intake, and fiber isn't a bonus nutrient. It's foundational. Fullness, gut health, something that certainly affects me, energy, blood sugar, it touches all of it. And as someone who struggles with, let's say, digestion issues, sometimes I try to be mindful of fiber, and that's where Huel comes in. Sponsor of the podcast, H-U-E-L. Huel! Huel! is nutritionally complete food. One bottle or one scoop gives you everything a real meal is supposed to give you. Protein, fiber, carbs, 27 essential vitamins and minerals. This is like the cast of Ocean's Eleven in terms of how star-studded it is.

1:01:20David Sims:It's designed by nutritionists to be a full meal, not a protein shake. You have fuel instead of food when you don't have time for a healthy meal. As someone who's not good at scheduling and structuring his life, I will admit they sent over a big box, the chocolate peanut butter flavor. And I have a couple of times realized, oh, I forgot to eat a meal. But you can also use powder when you want something more built, thicker, blended, more filling. It helps you hit your protein goals without needing to cook. And certainly, I love the sound of that. It's a really easy routine for when you're sprinting through your day.

1:01:52David Sims:You just pour the powder into a bottle of water and shake it. Yes. You can get Huel today with our exclusive offer of 15 % off online with the code CHECK at Huel.com slash CHECK. That's H-U-E-L.com slash C-H-E-C-K. New customers only. Thank you to Huel for partnering and supporting our show.

1:02:22Griffin Newman:So Stolberg, I just want to tell you, initially auditioned to play the husband in the Yiddish story. Oh, wow. He learned Yiddish. He learned the entire scene in Yiddish, like how to do it. He does the audition for them and they're like, huh. And then months later, they ask him back to read for Uncle Arthur and then for Larry. Yeah. And then they meet with Richard Kind, who I think they're thinking about for the lead role. Kind of, yeah. And they just are like, we just really want, you know. He would have made a meal out of it. He would. Right. Right.

1:02:52David Sims:You also need someone like Kind in the shorthand way for the brother because you're not going to spend that much time on him. Yes. And the look gets you like half the way there to the characterization.

1:03:03Griffin Newman:And yeah, like Kind had, I guess, auditioned for Burn After Reading. They knew, you know, who doesn't know? But had never worked with them before. Had never worked with them before. They initially wanted him to maybe play a rabbi in this. And then they were like, no, he'll work for Arthur. Also would have made a meal out of that. Yes. Yes. And Fred Melamed had auditioned for them all the way back for Barton Fink for the Michael Lerner role for the studio head, which makes sense. He's got that velvety voice thing, you know.

1:03:27David Sims:But you look at his career before this and he truly, it's like seven Woody Allen movies and three other credits until this. As Joel says, Cy is the sex guy in this movie.

1:03:38Griffin Newman:Every film needs one. And I do just love that everyone in the movie is like, I mean, it's fucking Cy Ableton. This is a robust guy. Cy Ableton. Yeah, yeah, yeah. but it's like this guy but he right right but but like the idea that he's a sex guy even in this film yes you know it was so grounded in something fundamentally jewish and and fundamentally not sexy and even the jewish way yes you know you don't got it's not elliot gould you deal right right you know he's not a right you're right you're right and it's only that sort of that implication of like, you got to let it breathe. Like, he's a sophisticated charmer.

1:04:15David Sims:He is a serious man.

1:04:17Griffin Newman:They made the movie for$7 million. To quote Ethan Coen, when you're making a movie about a Jewish-Midwestern community in 1967 and Fred Meliment is the sex guy, they don't give you a lot of money. They shot it in Bloomington, Minnesota, which is where the Mall of America is. They wanted, you know, they looked around for basically suburban neighborhoods that looked like their childhood neighborhoods. shot for 44 days, finished ahead of schedule, which is like the classic Cohen story. It's like under budget and finished early.

1:04:46David Sims:And they at this point have their thing worked out with working title where most of the time they'll just let them do whatever they want.

1:04:52Griffin Newman:Yeah. Yeah, and Deakins, Roger Deakins, their DP, shows up with all these what they call swing and tilt lenses that just skew the focal plane and stuff where he had just been doing them, using them on the assassination of Jesse James. Right, yeah. Which is so funny to think I'm working on that in an incredibly painterly movie and then showing up to this and being like, this will be good for the stone scenes. But also Burn After Reading. But also from the roof scenes.

1:05:15David Sims:Yes. Burn After Reading was the first movie they hadn't done, they'd done without Deakins in over a decade. You know what's interesting is, oddly, in terms of, you know, psychological terrain and sort of almost mystical interpretations, the closest movie to this of theirs is Barton Fink.

1:05:35Griffin Newman:Yeah, 100%. Like in terms of the liminal kind of like dream reality.

1:05:40David Sims:Yeah, what sort of feeling? The unknown. But the thing I find so interesting is like such a recurring theme of theirs is a guy who is so obsessed with a sort of outside perception of his own mediocrity that he needs to prove himself, punch above his weight class, do something demonstrably great in a way to win everyone's respect and just gets in over his skis and torpedoes his whole life. in the process. This is not that guy. This is a movie that starts with a guy who is pretty comfortable with where things are and everything starts collapsing around him. And he's looking for an explanation for why it's happening to him because he has done nothing to bring it upon himself.

1:06:20But I think that's probably his biggest sin. Absolutely. And also, like, he pulled it off. He became an American. Right. And maintained his Jewish identity. But he is living what was presented as the American dream. This is what we're here for. Yeah. We're not, you know, we're not the first wave immigrants. We're the second generation. We've now integrated into the middle class. I have a house. I have kids. I have a job. I'm about to get tenure.

1:06:49David Sims:I did it. Right. But Barton Fink is like a pretentious, elitist, self-centered weasel, you know? And also a socialist Jew. Yeah. Yes. Jerry Lundergarten Fargo is a guy who's like stacking up crimes in order to like get over the hill and prove that he's like a big man.

1:07:06Griffin Newman:Right.

1:07:07David Sims:This guy is just comfortable tapping out at bare minimum. Right. But also he believed he had principles and that he had artistic integrity and that his art meant something, which I think. Barton. Yeah. Barton. Yeah. But Lundgarten is also the neighbor. Yes. It's also. Absolutely. Yeah. Right. I mean, this movie is basically. Is the the guy who Lundegaard tries to sell the true coat to calls him a fuck. Right? Yeah. It's like an entire—

1:07:36Griffin Newman:A fucking liar.

1:07:37David Sims:A fucking liar. A fucking liar. But it's an entire movie centered around a guy with that energy. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Who's just like, I'm on the receiving end of Jerry Lundegaard's every day of my life. Oh, the sweaty Goodman in that movie. In Barton Fink is just the best. And the Bugs. That movie is so good. That's David's favorite, right?

1:07:58Griffin Newman:Fink, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, Fink's my favorite. You're a Fink guy. But this is, I think, right up there. Yeah. And maybe, yeah, they're linked for me because of that movie. Stuhlberg already had a Tony nomination at this point.

1:08:07David Sims:He's in The Pillow Man, the McDonough play. Which I will say. It's a great play. He plays a developmentally disabled adult man in that. It's a tough role. It is maybe the only time I've ever seen someone do that where I was like, this is 100 % respectful and not embarrassing.

1:08:22Griffin Newman:I saw it on the London stage, not to brag, and Adam Godley played that role. And he was wonderful. Great actor. David grew up in the UK Moved to the UK when I was nine Oh that's nice It is nice It's wonderful They have some real history Yeah they do To live in a place To live in a place where there are walls from 600 AD I mean yeah It's lousy with fucking castles Yeah Yeah When they're designing this movie Mary Zofris is their costume designer Finds a Sears Roebuck catalog that's called Deep Autumnal She says From the 60s Oh see there you go autumn I basically use all of that. For Cy Abelman. For generation.

1:08:59Griffin Newman:And I like this. She bought this Tahitian fabric for Leo DiCaprio on Catch Me If You Can, and she never used it. And then for Cy Abelman, she was like, that's what Cy's going to have. He went traveling. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cy's the kind of guy who comes back wearing some kind of like, it's like the lush shirt that he's wearing or whatever. It also, this movie has. I think the Jolly Roger would be appropriate for Griffin.

1:09:22David Sims:Yes. Surely you just. this movie has that smart art direction costuming thing of oh it's like 67 but everyone here is basically still right it's still like 59 yeah right no one's at the tip of the culture and

1:09:38Griffin Newman:that's what mad men is where you're just like well why does don trapper still wear a hat isn't it the 60s and it's like yeah but like he's not gonna start fucking dressing like a hippie tomorrow you know i grew up you know just on the cutting edge of uh i guess gen x i'm the last boomer and we were still you know when i was in high school and junior high in the mid 70s it was still the crashing wave of the 60s the late 60s 71 and that's the furniture everyone still has in

1:10:05David Sims:their homes it's not like 1960 hit and people threw shit out everything out for peace yeah exactly it's a little bit of it going on like in the in the in the game room or the family room there might be a beanbag and one of the kids the fringes it's just starting to leave yeah yeah but And you assume when these guys go off to college, it's going to be open season.

1:10:23Griffin Newman:What's going on, though, it's like the kid, the boy just wants to watch F Troop, which is like that. That shows just sort of a Western sitcom, right? Like that's a very traditional. Yeah, they had a four.

1:10:32David Sims:It was a very store. Yes. Very store. And the guy, the guy with, let me say it, the famously huge hog, right? Wasn't the other guy in F Troop one of. Forrest Tucker? Forrest Tucker. Okay. I don't know that about him. He's on the Milton Berle list. Oh, really? Yeah. On the Liam Neeson list. A lot of good it did him. He was on F Troop. Yeah, I know. David had to Google his name. F Troop's fuzzy. Larry Storch was like a comic. Kind of like, quietly, you could argue, an early alt-comic? Kind of, yeah. Like him and Professor Irwin Corey. Yeah. Where I feel like... Because he was kind of doing character stuff.

1:11:06Yeah, no. Almost his persona. There have always been weirdos. Yes. In terms of comedy. There's always been a couple that were undefinable.

1:11:15David Sims:Right. But I feel like he was an early version of, is this guy from Mars? Sure. Not the sort of making jokes, self-referencing how weird they are. Crazy guy. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But yeah, the kid just wants to watch F Troop and listen to Jefferson Airplane and get stoned. Girl just wants to go out with her friends to the mall. And wash her hair. Wash her hair. He does have to learn his haftora. He does. Which was a nightmare. You know, I think if I go on to think about this movie more, I'll try to figure out, you know, what was the topic of that. Your bar mitzvah? Well, I know what mine was.

1:11:49Oh, yeah. I did. Oh, figure out what it is in the film. What story is he telling? What portion is he reading? What did you do? I'm trying to remember now. I guess it didn't really land to me. I have to go look at my book, Jerusalem Syndrome, again to remember what the topic was. All I remember was that it was relatively short and I got lucky. Smart. Yeah. Or luck. Yeah. What do you look that up? What was the Torah portion he read? Well, I know I was never Bar Mitzvah. No, but I mean. In the movie. In the movie. Okay. Okay.

1:12:15Griffin Newman:I'll look it up.

1:12:19Griffin Newman:So, but I, I wasn't Bar Mitzvah because we'd moved to England and my mom, I mean, not to talk about my mom too much on this podcast, but we, it's a serious man, I guess. It's a serious man. Was kind of like, I don't like the vibes of the Jewish people here. Like she couldn't find the kind of reformy. Oh no, it's hard. I remember I was always fascinated when I interviewed British Jews. Yeah. Because, like, you just don't associate them. You're either all in or you don't really talk about them. American middle-class Judaism is the stereotype. Yep. Right. The closest she could find was American transplants in London.

1:12:49Griffin Newman:Right. We were like, oh, we have a little thing here for, you know. And also you've got to figure that the Jews were there forever. Yeah. Oh, yeah. You know, so it's a totally integrated thing. It's like Jews from the South that were here, that came over before that first European immigration. Yes. You know, for the slavery business. Yeah. I mean, there were Jews in the plantation South. Yeah. Yeah, it's kind of crazy because we all have such a strong identity with this middle class, you know, 50s Judaism that kind of built us. But there's like, I remember that going to the Yad Vashem in Israel, the Holocaust Museum.

1:13:27And there's just the, they showed like Jews from around the world because you identify, you think you know Jews. and then they're just showing like you know Africans and you're like oh my god what a like a myopic idiot

1:13:39Griffin Newman:I am yeah you know but they're not Jews like us right right his Torah portion is Leviticus and like I do think it is funny when you get handed this Torah portion we're like oh what's it about and it's basically just being like oh if you have a farm you better not have a farm too close to the other guy you know it's just some rule yeah right

1:13:54David Sims:and then right everyone in their bar mitzvah translates it to like it's like in school when you have to resist the temptation to cheat off of someone else's test. And everyone gives him like a fucking round of applause.

1:14:07Griffin Newman:But like literally it's just like you shall count seven weeks of years. Seven times seven years. So the time of seven weeks of years shall give you 49 years. It's a bunch of math. And I bet you the Coens picked it for that exact reason, right? And it is just so funny when you read the Bible and half of it is like, yeah, he fed this fucker to a whale because he didn't listen to him. The other half is like, if a lady has her period, steer clear for her. Yeah, yeah. And you're just like, they wrote that down next to that?

1:14:30David Sims:Right, that causes This is the same kind of like spiral that this movie is about of being like, how does this relate to my life? What am I supposed to take away from this? Yep. Yeah. Or what? I don't even know it. Right. The stories. Yes. Like there's no implication in middle class Judaism that anyone knows the Bible. No.

1:14:46Griffin Newman:I have struggled with my relationship to Judaism and not that it was, I wasn't even bar mitzvah. Same. It wasn't that pushed on me that hard. But, you know, the only time when I'm in a temple and like the only magic to it to me is like people said this shit 3000 years ago. Sure. The same shit we're saying right now. Like, you know, these words.

1:15:07David Sims:The same as seeing fucking Romeo and Juliet staged or whatever. We were like, this is crazy. This text is. There's some magic to that. And also you're singing in Hebrew. You know, we did. Adon Alam at the end was always. And then, you know, someone brought a new version and it's like, what are we doing? What's with the. I like Adon-a-lum. Oh, yeah, you don't like the new music. Right. And then all of a sudden it's Adon-a-lum, Adon-a-lum, Adon-a-lum, Adon-a-lum, Adon-a-lum. Like, I was awful. What's happening?

1:15:32Griffin Newman:Yeah. I mean, and that does happen. Oh, yeah. My mom. Reform synagogues? Like, what's with the guitar?

1:15:38David Sims:Why is there stained glass in here? Yeah. My parents definitely tried to push that on me to be like, this one's fun. They're puppets and an acoustic guitar. Yeah.

1:15:46Griffin Newman:Yeah, where the guy's like, you know, stories are kind of like about the Avengers. Right. It's not about the fucking Avengers. God didn't know about Marvel. Give it the weight it deserves. Exactly. Yeah.

1:15:57David Sims:God was kind of the original Iron Man. Yeah, yeah. So, Larry Kopnik, yeah.

1:16:03Griffin Newman:He lives in St. Louis Park. He's got a wife who pretty much, first thing she says to him is, I need to get, I'm divorcing you and I'm marrying Cy Ableman. You know how we've been having trouble. No hanky-panky. Right? Like, it's all above board. Right. So, and I believe her. I feel like it is just that she's like, Like, this guy's so magnetic.

1:16:21David Sims:It speaks to what a sex guy he is, that she's ready to leave her husband just at the idea of fucking Cy Abelman.

1:16:27Griffin Newman:Because the idea is that Cy Abelman's wife just died, right? Because later Adam Arkin is like,

1:16:31David Sims:she's barely in the ground. But it's been three years. Right. That's the thing they keep correcting. Right. But also he's like an adventurous spirit. Yes. And he knows about wine.

1:16:40Griffin Newman:He's expansive. Yes. Yes. He's culturally existent. The expansive thing, again, with the psychedelic undertones, it's it's it's all about you know not being locked in to this pattern he knows about things outside of this enclave in minnesota yeah yeah um so that's kind of just that's all that's really going on in the movie is just what's the inciting thing he's up for tenure then it's right a series

1:17:07David Sims:of sort of there is a young student who is blackmailing him because he's given him a failing grade what are the other things stacked he's he's got his brother sleeping on his couch columbia

1:17:17Griffin Newman:house keeps calling that's my favorite that's the best and and you you're with him every time he walks in and she's like he's on the phone again he's like i can't do it i i i when i was a kid i did it yeah i got my 12 for a dollar or whatever and my uncle would just like sign up false addresses or whatever i feel like it was so easy to fake it the ones that were that i got that made an impression it were uh aerosmith's first album uh joe walsh the smoker you drink the whatever you get um i don't want santana abraxas yeah that might have been one of them but i didn't do anything yeah yeah but then did you did you do them or would you get locked no eventually you got to get your parents to step up and get you out of it right i mean you don't have the money yeah you know because you would tape like a penny back well you know you had to buy like three or four records at regular price right you get the the 12 for free 12 for and then you gotta you know you gotta buy a certain number of records the free thing was actually a brilliant

1:18:14David Sims:business strategy to be like well kids just fucking take the initiative and mail it in and the parents get stuck with the bill sure i don't have to ask for permission the first and also you

1:18:23Griffin Newman:get new music yeah you know like you're like that sounds good yeah um steve park who played um obviously mike yannigan mike yannigan fargo plays uh the student's father i'm trying to think of

1:18:35David Sims:clive as the student right which is also right like another form of assimilation is like here is this foreign family that has moved here and named their son Clive. Oh, that assimilation too is very interesting. Yes. Because like the one moment where the neighbor actually reaches out is like, do you need help here? Right. Because the guy was Asian. Right. Is there a problem? He's like the hierarchy of hatred. Yes, we can both hate them. Yes. Yeah, that can bond us. Yes.

1:19:02Griffin Newman:Yeah, yeah, yeah. And if the movie has a structure, it's just these three visits to rabbis that he makes that are him seeking answers. I guess initially on the divorce. Right.

1:19:14David Sims:A traditional Jewish divorce. Right. And he's hoping he can also get some kind of clarity for why his life is in the place it is. All at the same time. Yeah. Yeah.

1:19:24Griffin Newman:And he sees first Simon Helberg, Rabbi Gensler, and then he sees Marsch. Effect Simon Helberg. This is an Effect Simon Helberg film. Right. Then he sees Nockner. And he never sees Marshak. He doesn't get to see Marshak. You see Marshak. His son gets to meet Marshak. and yeah there's not much no one's saying anything about the actual politics at the time do they even reference Vietnam maybe in the I don't think so and it's like like you're saying the sort of cultural shift is on the edges all the time the reference is machine gun the reference is art that's about Vietnam and other stuff

1:20:06David Sims:but yeah you're not talking about who's president in this movie. Right. Yeah. No, it's Johnson. It's all a biblical struggle.

1:20:15Griffin Newman:Yes. Yes. And he is put upon in ways that you initially can keep track of and eventually you do start to kind of think like someone actually does need to intervene here. Yes. But everyone, and it's a series of meetings. It's all meetings. Yes. He's meeting with Cy Abelman. He's meeting with the rabbis. He's meeting with the lawyers, right? Like it's always just him being like, isn't there something we can do? They're all kind of negotiations in one way or another. Yes. Right. Yes. But I think, interestingly, if I think about it, that, you know, the beginning of the third act is the bar mitzvah.

1:20:46Yeah. So, you know, what you have there is a coming together and an understanding.

1:20:50David Sims:That's the other thing. Everyone he keeps meeting with keeps, like, saying, like, pretty exciting bar mitzvahs coming up. You know, it's the big event culturally. And also that's the moment where there is, if there is any sort of reunification of the wife in him. Yes. It's in that moment. They're proud of their son. That's right. Right. But it is fraught with expectation because he's stoned. Yes. And they're all wondering. They should be proud of him.

1:21:14Griffin Newman:He's dancing on a pinhead. I mean, he's reading that Hebrew. They don't know he's stoned. I know, I know. He's hitting those notes. Like, you know, they were nervous because they didn't know if he was nervous or what. But there's a moment like, is he going to pull it off? Right. They do say, they do keep saying to him, like, you got to cherish this. Right. You know, like the people will be like, ah, you know, you know, your kids are young. Like, you got to cherish it. Right. And I guess there is the implication that Larry cherishes nothing. Like, it's hard to know what Larry likes. He cherishes math.

1:21:44Griffin Newman:I guess so.

1:21:45David Sims:But he also doesn't seem to derive great pleasure from it. Doesn't seem like he's into teaching. Right. Everything feels like a burden on him to some degree or another. I don't know if I got that with the math. I think that, you know, it was his salvation. Right. And that, you know, the fact that he could share that. I mean, being a teacher, I mean, it's another important position, you know, biblically speaking, that everyone's framed that way. And that the context of his teaching was if you knew how to do that, you could be effective and share the wisdom. But he also seems so beleaguered at the struggle of how to communicate it to other people.

1:22:20David Sims:Right. As much as it is really teaching kids.

1:22:23Griffin Newman:He's teaching Schrodinger's cat. Right. Like really complicated, abstract stuff. I think it's not easy to teach.

1:22:30David Sims:I think he puts value on this system, this language that makes sense to him and helps give him a sense of the world. the world searching for meaning but there is a but there is sort of a a nebbishy hubris yes to his position yes and all he wants is tenure he wants the minting of you get to be this guy forever yeah your status is not in question also no expectation to like he hasn't published no

1:22:54Griffin Newman:yeah yeah he doesn't but like that he is seeking now that i think about a rabbinical position he is of like yeah once you get tenure you'll sit in your office yes people will come talk to you you'll be like, you become an elder of the community. But not so much. It's just sort of like, in math, there's no wiggle room. Yes or no. This is right or wrong. Right. Period. And yeah, but life, not that easy. It's solvable. So he first goes to see Helberg, who tells him to look at the parking lot. And there is a comedy to this that I feel like is so true in religion when you do have to confront someone who's like, hi.

1:23:31Griffin Newman:Like, I got to be a priest like 20 minutes ago, but I am nominally like a representative of God. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:23:37David Sims:The three rabbis in the movie are like a guy who's younger than him, a guy who's a contemporary, and a guy who's his elder. Yes. And immediately he's sort of sitting with this guy with the disappointment of, I really thought I was going to talk to the big guy.

1:23:48Griffin Newman:But, like, Kensler's not going to tell him. He doesn't know about divorce.

1:23:51David Sims:No, but he's just waiting for this guy to kick him up the chain. You know, he kind of, you can tell that he goes into that meeting knowing he's not going to get anything that he's happy with.

1:24:00Griffin Newman:but in but i do he gets the best advice from that that's right he does the perception advice yes

1:24:05David Sims:like that that actually he should listen to yes of just like just look at the parking lot but he's pre-committed to the outcome of this guy has nothing he can teach me things aren't so bad yeah yeah but that's what he goes back to right it's also funny that it's a parking lot which goes back to fargo as well where this guy's entire life is built on the idea of if i can get this parking lot deal, my father-in-law will respect me, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like the parking lot. He's a climber. It's the kind of most sacred cornerstone of a community in America. Heat up your 4th of July at the Home Depot with our wide variety of grills under$300 and make every gathering one to remember.

1:24:45Give your outdoor space a glow up. Whatever your budget is, the savings on seasonal plants starting at$5. With the grill fired up and your backyard set to perfection, you'll be able to invite friends and family over to kick off the party. Start celebrating with low prices guaranteed at The Home Depot. Prices may vary by store. Exclusions apply. See Home Depot.com slash price match for details.

1:25:07Griffin Newman:Good energy in. Good energy out.

1:25:15Griffin Newman:Storm. Zero sugar, 200 milligrams of caffeine and immunity support. Storm, energy for life And then you got Nockner who tells the Teeth story, I think this is the crowning moment of the movie

1:25:31David Sims:I mean once again it is a movie that has like four things that would be the undeniable crowning moment in any other film

1:25:38Griffin Newman:There's just something so wonderful about how involved you are in it I think that story is in a way the the the is it the parable is that what we call them yeah yeah fable whatever that is the fable that it explains the movie in the context of the opening fable and it it is it is what the movie is yes and the fact that the the reason i say that is because he did take the letters and break down the kabbalistic math of what the numbers of the letters implied on a kabbalah level right yeah He called the number. Yeah, he did go to the supermarket where the number was for expecting something. And that is the entire search of the movie.

1:26:24That is the movie. Right.

1:26:25David Sims:In that parable form. And we were talking about before recording the semiotics in visual storytelling in the great movies. Yeah. And how a movie that's really humming, you're like, you could look at the back of the teeth and they would tell you something. And this is literally a guy who's hyper fixated on the back of the teeth, which are saying something so specific and yet nothing at the same time. And the further he dug, the less answers he got. And that also the, the, the, I guess the interesting thing is, is that there is a level of wanting coincidences to mean something. Yes. And wanting how you perceive things in relation to things that have happened before in your life or, or, or suggestions of things that happened before in your life as having some sort of arc or continuity to it.

1:27:10And if you look at that, that story about the dentist, he never asks the guy. Yeah. How did these, do you know you have this on your teeth? Right. Right. That there's a whole other side of this story.

1:27:21David Sims:He's not asking the essential question. That's right. Right. To the essential person. But also, like, this is how we read movies, right? Like, you're saying, like, you look for answers and meaning and things, right? And purpose and all of that. And yet movies are, like, this many people came together and put this much time and money and effort into something that exists in a fixed time, right? That is a finished work. So you want to look at it and assume that every single decision has some meaning behind it. Whether purposeful or accidental, there's something to be inferred by the decision of every line reading, of every costuming choice, of every sound cue, of all of that.

1:28:01David Sims:And sometimes it's just collaborative coincidence. Kismet. And we're watching a movie that feels so tightly constructed by these guys who make things that similarly open the same kind of questioning that keeps telling you, I don't know. Yeah. And also, like, the dentist, you know, obviously couldn't talk about it with anybody but the rabbi. Right. And that when he tries to look at his wife's teeth, it has to be why she's sleeping. I thought that was sort of an interesting thing about, you know, how women are handled in this movie. Yes. And from the very beginning, when the woman just kills the guy, the divick.

1:28:37Yes. Right. And without, you know, asking the husband or anything, you don't know what the hell they're going to do. Right. Right. And then there's a woman on the beach who's, you know, kind of flirting with him. Yes. That there is something in that subtext and the way that women are handling these relationships. Because once the dentist forgets about the teeth, the shot is he's telling a story to his wife. Right. Right. You know, and it's clearly not the dentist. He's reconnecting with his wife. That's right. Yes. And it's kind of interesting that they hold sort of a mystical unknown space in this movie.

1:29:11Yes. Something that men are not going to get into and can't understand.

1:29:15David Sims:Larry's wife also basically disappears for close to an hour in this movie. She's really not back until the bar mitzvah. After Cy Abelman dies, her presence is anytime he goes over, you just hear her wailing, but you don't see her. He's talking to the kids, and you just hear her crying upstairs, inconsolable.

1:29:33Griffin Newman:And that's what the kid says when he calls. He's like, Dad, you have to come home. Mom won't stop crying.

1:29:37David Sims:Right. Doesn't tell him why. they like throw it out to him as like background knowledge of like well yeah si ableman died and then she doesn't i think appear physically again until the bar mitzvah and then he's gonna

1:29:48Griffin Newman:get her back he's gonna get tenure he's gonna get his wife back he's gonna get his family back together and then he's gonna die of freaking yeah it'll all resolve itself but that's really interesting if i think it out loud about the the mystery of women in this movie because it's it's Because Land Decker is obviously the neighbor. He's like a, you know, nymph. The sex goddess. Exactly. Like she's like a mystical figure. But it's just a deliberated woman. There's a woman, you know, kind of, you know, flirting with him on the beach and ready to go in for the kill. You know, if he'll take her. And then there's the wife.

1:30:21And then there's the daughter. And he literally says that she, my daughter mostly washes her hair. And it seems to be very many steps to the process. Women are like seen as unknowable. A total enigma. Right. And it's not our job. It's just like God.

1:30:36Griffin Newman:It's like Hashem. Right. And like, as Knockner says to him, it's like, it's one way. He owes us nothing. We can't ask Hashem what's going on. Yes. Like, it's not like Christianity where you can be like. But it's accepting that relationship, which is crazy. But... Atif, we don't know. A sign from Hashem? We don't know. When he's like, what's the ending? Couldn't hurt. Yeah, exactly. That's always it. That's right. Couldn't hurt. Couldn't hurt.

1:31:01David Sims:That's the weird trick of Judaism and why we never shut up with each other. The more you overanalyze the text, the further you get away from the idea, which is like, don't be an asshole. It's not like some belief systems where they're like, you have to be nice or you're in trouble. But overanalyzing the text is the nature of Judaism. And it's the nature of Jewish community. It's the nature of Jewish men sitting at a deli. It's the nature of debate.

1:31:24Griffin Newman:I do think that's why I've always struggled with very strict Jewish Judaism, which of course exists, like Mega Earth, where I'm like, you guys think that's definitely it? Right. Yeah, but the thing is, is it like, but it's absolute in the sense of that their knowledge of what you're talking about as being these weird stories about math, that's a week of conversation with a Hasidim. You know, like they're going to like read into that. They're going to interpret it.

1:31:51David Sims:They're doing five blank check episodes a day, just about single pages of the comment. That's right. There's an endless amount of text. It's not as simple as the New Testament. Right. So that, like, however we're going to, and God knows I try to compartmentalize, if not, you know, condescend or am outright anti-Semitic about the Hasidic community. They have an almost infinite material for dialogue and debate outside of their ritual. But an infinite well in a very fixed text. Sure. An inmoving text. Yeah, but middle-class Judaism becomes a fixed text. Yes. It's simpler and it integrates the possibility of democracy in America.

1:32:33Right. But, you know, yeah, and you don't have to wear the same outfit.

1:32:36David Sims:How do we translate this to a modern culture gives them new things to analyze in a way?

1:32:42Griffin Newman:Speaking to Mark's point about the things that go unspoken, there's also the unspoken thing that Arthur is gay and is sort of up to private hanky-panky. Yeah. You know, like, and when he gets— And that's obviously right. That's the dark thing he wants to understand more than anything. Right. Right. And then when that is revealed, sort of obliquely revealed by the cops. Right. It's never discussed again. No. I mean, I guess he talks to the lawyer about like you're going to need a criminal attorney or whatever. But no one sits on a third down being like, how can we help you or what's going on? No, but that conversation didn't exist then.

1:33:18Right. Exactly. But there was acceptance. There's no path. There was acceptance. Yeah. But they can't believe that in a weird way. But with the brother— It's a quiet, unspoken acceptance. But with the brother, there was unconditional acceptance and love to the point where the dream is, I'm going to help you get out.

1:33:35David Sims:And I was going to say, I find the dream so affecting because the Carter Burwell score in this is incredible. His scores for all the movies are incredible. But this one is so ominous, so repetitive. It is so limited in sort of the motif of what it is repeating. and the first major variation of it is in that dream sequence where he's putting the same baseline melody, but then he's putting this kind of like sweeping emotional orchestral thing on top of it. It's the end of a movie. For the first time, there is this sense of possibility and uplift, which is he takes the kid's money and he buys his fucking brother a canoe and sets him off to Canada.

1:34:13David Sims:Just a sign that says Canada and the idea of if you cross the border, maybe over there, you can live an unencumbered life.

1:34:18Griffin Newman:It also speaks to the Vietnam time. It was a thing.

1:34:21David Sims:That's interesting.

1:34:22Griffin Newman:You go to Canada to get away from America. That's how you get out. Get away from the guns.

1:34:26David Sims:Canada is the abstract kind of like bizarro America, which is us without our problems. My uncle was going to go to Canada. But that's a good point, though, because ultimately you don't escape the violence. No, the guy shows up and shoots him in the boat. He's an American. And he wakes up screaming. An anti-Semitic Jew hater. Yes. Yeah, so the Jews are, you know, either way. And the only other time the score repeats that sort of tone is at the end with the reveal of the tornado. Yeah. So why does he change the grade?

1:34:55Griffin Newman:Is he just sort of like, is he affecting, feeling like things are starting to go better for me. Maybe I shouldn't be so tough on this kid.

1:35:03David Sims:I think that's part of it. I think it's like the law bill and he. Right. He gets the law bill and he's like, maybe I can just. He's so scared off by the nightmare of trying to help his brother. Right. escape to a different life that he but he has the same compulsion within him to protect him i think especially now that he understands his sexuality and understands the unspoken thing that's never going to be solved within this guy that he feels like the ultimate mitzvah he can do is get this guy back down to zero yeah and who's going to be the wiser right yeah right and then the minute that

1:35:33Griffin Newman:there was a real it's called black sunday it was a real tornado system that ripped through iowa in Minnesota killed lots of people. Right, lived in the tenure. Right, right, 1967, right then.

1:35:44David Sims:The order of it is, does his superior come in and give him the indication that he's about to get tenure right before the doctor phone call and then the tornado?

1:35:57Griffin Newman:It's tenure, then he gets the bill, then he changes the grade, then the doctor calls. I love the thing with the tenure, too.

1:36:04David Sims:He's feeling the fact that he's a little invincible because he's gotten the tenure.

1:36:08Griffin Newman:Was Psy the one writing the letters? I know it's silly to ask questions of this movie when we should be accepting the mystery. But right, that's the— It does feel, though. That when at the bar mitzvah, the wife says, like, Psy was writing letters to the tenure board.

1:36:21David Sims:And they go out of their way to say how eloquent the letters were, how poetic they were.

1:36:26Griffin Newman:Right, that they weren't—this isn't someone who—English is not the first language. Well, so then, you know, if you're going to believe that, then Psy is the devil. Yeah, and Psy also— Which he sort of is. Or he's this mystical, dark beast. No, he has evil intent.

1:36:43David Sims:But Sai's whole thing is playing it all as like, look, this is just, it's an intellectual exercise, right? It would make sense for you to go to the Jolly Roger. It's the right thing to do. This isn't emotional, right? The Jolly Roger with an empty pool. Right. And he, no, but he, biblically, he is the, it's not even a Faustian character. He is the only representative of human evil. Yes. And he is also, he took his wife. This is his way of cucking him before he's literally cucked him. Sent him out of his home. Yes. Oh my God. Is trying to diminish his reputation. What are you saying? Oh my God.

1:37:19Griffin Newman:When he has that conversation and he's like, why don't you move into size house? And they have this look of like, are you kidding me? It makes me so mad because it's so deeply unfair. it's so like they've made this decision amongst each other and and there there's no like other

1:37:41David Sims:alternative and that's when he says surely you jest yeah and i don't even actually understand

1:37:47Griffin Newman:is there some kind of like religious aspect to that no i really don't think so i don't know no it's not religious it's societal it's like don't break up the family exactly she's the head of the family.

1:38:02David Sims:Right. So she is defining to him, you have to leave because the family unit is changing with him moving in. Right. And the house is the continuity and you're the part that's replaceable. Not. But also, yeah, he might not even really care about her that much. He doesn't seem to really have any level of intellectual intimacy. He's an instigator of chaos. Yes. He's a biblical bad boy. You also get the sense, I don't know, I mean, my inference is that... Who's your favorite

1:38:33Griffin Newman:biblical bad boy?

1:38:35David Sims:I don't know.

1:38:36Griffin Newman:Gotta think about it.

1:38:38David Sims:I get the inference in this that it was kind of one of these quiet, kind of, like, passively arranged marriages, right? That this was sort of a, not that they were actually set up to, like, combine family estates. It's hard to imagine

1:38:49Griffin Newman:Larry taking charge.

1:38:51David Sims:Right, but you're just sort of like, this is probably, like, the girl he met when he was 14 and everyone was like, you should marry her. Just trying to think of any other... Oh, yeah, he's got a good job. I mean, it's as arranged as expectations are. Exactly. The rabbi is busy.

1:39:05Griffin Newman:He doesn't look busy. He's thinking. I'm just trying to think of like any other because this is such a quotable. There's a part where he's talking about their relationship. Had you seen this before, Ben? No. I'd never seen it before. And he's like, she's usually right about this stuff. And it's in reference to like their relationship crumbling. Yeah. Like I love that he's even not sure about that. Yes.

1:39:27David Sims:that he's leaving it kind of up to her. Right. That he falls in line with what she's telling him with very little resistance and then has to do the work to actually make her reality of cucking him in it tangible. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. That she's like, I need to get, you have to get the get for me. Well,

1:39:48Griffin Newman:okay. One other thing, the bus scenes, the bus scenes, they're great. They're so fun. It really captures what it's like at that age to be on the bus with your friends yeah and i love the kid that keeps just saying fuck all the time yeah yeah yeah just really you it's like he's really at that age you're like i'm i've learned this word and i'm gonna fucking use it man and also that the really kind of like those are those kids are american yes yeah first and foremost like even at the hebrew school like on the bus yeah those are kids that are fully integrated and you have the old teacher guy who feels like he's and my mom would talk about that how you have these teachers who are holocaust survivors yeah like because like that was her generation and that they were so from another world right so this doesn't relate to me and she's like yeah i watched like leave it to beaver and so like it's like she doesn't yeah

1:40:41David Sims:yeah and f true also right the movie starts at the cold open right we got to shout out five ish finkel sure legend of the other's theory yeah rules in this yeah um and this right this idea of saying like i ran into this guy you remember him and the wife is immediately terrified at like he died i swear to you he died there's no chance you saw that guy and he shows up and the whole question is was the the gossip wrong right or is this guy supernatural which she then takes the initiative stabs him another example of walks out into the cold taking charge right right and and the question is did that doom them forever um yeah like adam and eve and like and And gossip is another very specific commandment.

1:41:22Griffin Newman:And Adam and Eve, the first gossip, right, is, I hear if you eat that tree.

1:41:25David Sims:Yeah. Yeah. But then you go into this, like, void of darkness, right? The credits come out, like, really quickly, almost like Superman the movie flying at the screen with this weird humming that turns into the Jefferson airplane. You see this small kind of, like, circle of light. And as you push in on it slowly, you're coming out his ear canal. You're going into the speaker. you've been in the mind of the son who is so secondary to the narratives of this movie but here he is sneaking music the teacher takes it the money is tucked into the radio right which he needs to pay the bully back for for the lid he's running away every day he's just got this quiet subplot the whole movie which is just this big kid keeps chasing him down the street and he's got to figure out how to give his$20 back

1:42:11Griffin Newman:and the kid's like there's a tornado we're about to fucking die

1:42:14David Sims:oh yeah

1:42:15Griffin Newman:All right, we got to play the ball. Go ahead, Griffin. We've not been going long. I have to go to the Natural History Museum. What are you doing at the Natural History Museum? You're going to look at the whale. Hell yeah. My girlfriend's never been there. That is my favorite place. And she's a dinosaur freak. My phone picture is my daughter. Oh, I can't wait. In front of the whale. Sorry to spoil the whale for you. I'm sorry if I inserted it. No, no, no. No, absolutely not.

1:42:36David Sims:No.

1:42:36Griffin Newman:I just, we have to play the box. Of course. It's the last thing we do before we finish the episode. Griffin, do you remember when this film came out? this came out in september or october second night 2009 mark griff's gonna i mean and feel free to join in but griff's gonna try and guess the movies that were top of the box of this movie when this film came out october 2nd 2009 oh i'm not gonna be so my film opened it i think toronto or yeah that sounds right you know it had like a festival release my relationship to my

1:43:04David Sims:father was uh largely uh solidified in that he shared sports with my brother i was the first child, I had no interest in the thing that he cared about the most. Well, my dad didn't care about anything, but go ahead. In an effort to connect and come up with an equivalent thing to my dad and my brother coveting the sports scores in the Daily News and the New York Post every morning, my dad tried to build the same ritual over checking out the box office top 10. Oh, that's nice. Every Monday morning, I guess. And so it started this thing of all of these being locked in my brain. So even though this movie comes out in a point in time where I'm ostensibly an adult not living with my father.

1:43:40David Sims:You still care about this. Most of our relationship is on Sunday being like, you see that number? Oh, yeah. The purse screen was wild on that. So all of these things are just baked into my brain. I'm a lunatic. Yeah. Okay. October 2009.

1:43:51Griffin Newman:Yeah, it's opening on six screens. It's the first week in the sense. Yeah, it's a limited release. So it's not number one. But number one is new this week, Griff. It's an action comedy, I guess. It's an action comedy. Sort of horror action comedy. It's Zombieland? Yeah.

1:44:04David Sims:Yeah. Good job, Zombieland. Okay. So I remember there being three new releases this weekend. There are three.

1:44:09Griffin Newman:You're right. There's actually four.

1:44:11David Sims:Well, let me say, I'm going to pull one thing right out of my ass. Go ahead. Toy Story 2 3D double feature re-release happens this weekend. You're so fucked up. I was hoping it was going to overtake Zombieland. I had some personal. Wow.

1:44:22Griffin Newman:So that's number three is a re-release. You're saying it's the first two Toy Stories?

1:44:27David Sims:They did a double feature because both those movies are under 90. So it was like a, right, it was like a three-hour double feature with some, probably one of the greatest movie going experiences of my life.

1:44:35Griffin Newman:so number one is Zombieland that's number three number two is a children's animated film

1:44:40David Sims:and is it also a new release? no no it's a

1:44:43Griffin Newman:coming down from number one

1:44:44David Sims:coming down from number one in 2009 so it was a September yep release you struggle with this one it's based on a children's book it's based on a children's book I've struggled with this one in the past yes you've struggled with this one

1:44:57Griffin Newman:in the past

1:44:58David Sims:which studio released it? Sony it's a Sony release he always struggles with this one Mark could have been in this one It's cloudy with a chance of meatballs. There you go. Yeah. I always just don't think about that. Because now you have a card. You're in the Bad Guys. Is that your cartoon? Yes. Bad Guys opens in August. Hell yeah. Can I say this? I love every time you talk about going to the first screening and hearing that everyone else did kind of their regular speaking voice. Oh, yeah, yeah. And wondering why you put so much effort into it. Yeah, I got to do this every time I talk as a cartoon.

1:45:28David Sims:I just want to say to you, I took my little cousin who's like now 10, but I guess was eight or seven when the first one came out to see that movie opening weekend. And I was like, God, fucking Marin's locked in. He's delivering. He's putting in the work. Yeah. I want you to know the vocal strain you put in that role is appreciated. Oh, well, thank you. He was laughing at the snake. I'll say that. Oh, good. He doesn't he doesn't know from WTF. He's not laughing because it's you. Yeah. You also played Lex Luthor. Yeah. I didn't even know what that was. I will say it does kind of come across in that performance versus the snake.

1:46:03David Sims:where I'm like, you got a handle on this? Yeah. No, I didn't even know it was a big movie. Is that the Pets? Super Pets. Super Pets. I'm like, all right, I'll do it. Because when you do animated, it's like you drive to Burbank. It's the dream. And you just do the thing. The absolute dream. And I had no care about any of that. Yeah. But yeah, but I put it in with the snake. And then like, when did people stop doing cartoon voices? I agree. So, though, Anthony Ramos definitely steps up. He does. Everyone's good in it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sam is really. Ruffalo's good in it. But I just, I like that you came up with a full character.

1:46:33Griffin Newman:Thank you. Yeah. Number four, Griff, it's a kind of a bomb. It's a sci-fi kind of action movie with like a movie star who's getting to be in his dotage, getting a little older. He's over the hump. Yeah, he's retired now, but... He's retired now? He is, yes. For sort of sad reasons. Oh, it's a Bruce movie. Bruce Willis. Is it Surrogates? That's right. It's the film Surrogates. Yeah. A movie I've never seen. Me neither. Robots, I don't know. Jonathan Mastow, right? And the number five, it's new this week. It's a comedy from sort of a, I guess, a comedy auteur of sorts. You said that with a bit of an eye roll.

1:47:07You know, I don't know.

1:47:09Griffin Newman:I have a complicated relationship with the guy. I think most people do. It's not due date, is it? No. No, he's British. He's British.

1:47:15David Sims:And you have a complicated relationship.

1:47:16Griffin Newman:He's like starring and he's directing and he's writing.

1:47:19David Sims:Is it the motion picture, The Invention of Lion? Ricky Gervais. Now, I've heard a scurrilous rumor.

1:47:24Griffin Newman:Yeah, speaking of movies about God, right? I heard he doesn't believe in the guy.

1:47:28David Sims:No. He doesn't like that guy. I swear. Where did you hear this? Deep, deep gossip circles. Dumois was posting about it. You never did Gervais, right? You never talked to that guy. I'm not sure why. I did go to the premiere of that movie with CK, though. And CK ditched me. Cool. He just wanted to go with somebody. But this was the nature of that friendship when it existed. Yeah. Like, I was in L.A. He's like, you want to go to this thing? And then I go, yeah, okay, that sounds fun. So I go over to his hotel, Beverly Hilton or something. And then we go to the thing. We go to the premiere. We get out of the car.

1:48:07He walks to the line. He says, you're all set. You've got a ticket. He leaves in the car. I sit and watch that horrible movie.

1:48:16David Sims:He didn't stay for the movie. No. But then the car took me back to the— I somehow lost my keys. And I thought they were in his hotel room. And I can't even remember how that resolved itself. Because I had to go back to the hotel, get them to go into the room to see if I could find my car keys. And my car was at the hotel. God, how did that resolve itself? But what about the Goy? Yeah, that is like a serious man-esque trial of small indignities. And the most indignity is that, like, I don't remember how that resolved itself. Sure. But I remember it was a horrendous panic. Well, yeah, I got my car, but I don't think I ever found my keys.

1:48:53David Sims:C.K. is clean-shaven in that. And it makes it feel like the movie's a hallucination. I feel like it's right before the show when he sort of like ascends It's a horrible movie Oh, it's a terrible film but it feels like watching Henry Cavill with the CGI'd out mustache where you're like this face doesn't move right Number six in the box office

1:49:13Griffin Newman:is Whip It the roller derby movie really fun movie Elliot Kaye, Drew Barrymore's

1:49:17David Sims:only directorial effort

1:49:18Griffin Newman:Yeah, and then you've got Fame I guess is that a remake of Fame? Yeah, big time Okay, and then the Michael Moore movie Capitalism, A Love Story Yeah So that was what?

1:49:27David Sims:up to 250 million domestic at this point.

1:49:29Griffin Newman:Made 4 million.

1:49:30David Sims:Oh, interesting.

1:49:30Griffin Newman:And then you got the Soderbergh movie, The Informant, which is a...

1:49:33David Sims:Great movie.

1:49:34Griffin Newman:Very good. That's good.

1:49:35David Sims:Yeah.

1:49:35Griffin Newman:And then something called Love Happens. What the hell is that?

1:49:38David Sims:That was Aaron Eckert, Jennifer Aniston. I think he plays like a Tony Robbins-esque motivational speaker. Right, and she's a florist.

1:49:45Griffin Newman:Yes. And love happens.

1:49:46David Sims:Love does indeed happen.

1:49:48Griffin Newman:But that's it. Wow. That's the box office game. Wow. We're done, Mark. We're good. I mean, we'll send you off. You have to ask... Oh, I'm sorry.

1:49:55David Sims:Not to...

1:49:55Griffin Newman:that's that's his thing i'm uh are we allowed to ask you that what are you are we good yeah we're good we're great yeah i did i did realize during this conversation that i am definitely not a math jew and i definitely do not have the obsessive uh attention span of a film nerd jew and uh i am uh definitely more a a mystically bent jew yes yes you're more listening to to airplane Yeah, exactly. All right. Thanks, guys. This is dropping. Yeah, this is coming out. It's coming out in a while. Yeah, in the fall. We all have the special out there. Right. Yes. Is that on HBO? Yeah, HBO. The special's called Panicked.

1:50:39You shot at a BAM, right? I did. I shot it at the BAM Harvey. Oh, yeah, you shot at the Harvey. The Bad Guys is coming out in August. Hell, yeah. Can't wait to hear that sneak grovel. We'll see what happens with this feature film that I starred in, an independent called In Memoriam. And then the documentary. The documentary. Hopefully we'll have a home where you can watch Are We Good?

1:51:00Griffin Newman:In Memoriam is the one that's about the guy who wants to make the In Memoriam. Yes. At the Oscars. Yes, yes, yes. That's a great premise. It's funny. You guys are really a little like that. That's an out premise. I think I did all right. Where you watch that every year and you're like, huh, weird that guy didn't make it. Yeah, yeah. Why didn't he chop liver? Yeah, yeah.

1:51:17David Sims:There's politics involved. That's the thing that people don't know is that you basically don't make it unless someone submits you. Right. someone's got to remember that you died right someone's got to make the case they all remember gene hackman or whatever but never forget yeah yeah uh thank you so much for doing this thanks for having me thought uh yeah i mean i it's a real joy we're huge fans i hope i i uh stepped up enough no absolutely but it's also it's one of those things where it's uh hard to imagine that we would be doing this if you hadn't done what you did as much as this show is very different well thank you i appreciate that and i'm happy for you guys that's at the end of the day that's all that matters.

1:51:53David Sims:Yeah. I've been waiting for my dad to say that for so long. I'm proud of you all. So long, but it may be more coming from you. Wow. Thank you for saying that. Thank you for being here. Thank you, Brendan, for making this happen. Yeah, thanks, Brendan. Thanks for having me in the part of the room, respectfully. Enjoy the Natural History Museum. Yeah. Best place on Earth. I'm looking forward to it. Yep. Thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate, review, subscribe. Sure. I say that. That's a thing I say. Tune in next week for True Grit.

1:52:22Griffin Newman:Yeah. That's right. The biggest hit.

1:52:25David Sims:That's right. That was their follow-up here, right? Yeah. And as always, embrace the mystery.

1:52:39David Sims:There we go. Mark Maron. Serious man on the pod. Long time coming. Very, I was happy with that episode. I was happy with that episode. He was very generous with his time. But then he had to leave. because he had to go to the Museum of Natural History. He wanted to see the squid and the whale. That's what he wanted to see. He wanted to see that. That's not a bit. That's real. Thank you to Brendan McDonald for making that happen. Total mensch. Great guy. Well, thank you for listening. Please remember to rate, review, and subscribe. Of course, the full archives, Blank Check archives, are available for free wherever you get your podcasts.

1:53:21David Sims:We've talked about Marc Maron a lot in the past. We've stolen a lot of his bits. Most of that really originates with our almost famous episode from year two, 2016. So here's a little clip of that, our original Marc Maron conversation. If you want to listen to that, you can go back and listen to the episode.

1:53:43Griffin Newman:Lock the gates. Great times. Boom, I just shit my pants. JustCoffee.co. Oh, God, he says that all the time. Remember when all the podcasts were just WTF? That was like the only podcast that you could listen to?

1:53:56David Sims:Yeah, that was the only format that people wanted to do. Oh, my God.

1:53:59Griffin Newman:And then you were like, great. Like two years in, you're like, I've now heard every comedian give an interview. Four times. A long-form interview. Yeah. To each of the other comedians. It got to a point where it was like, so you've been doing open mics for a couple years. Tell me about your process. Like, what? Why are you interviewing?

1:54:15David Sims:How much time you got at this point? You got what? You got 40? You got a tight 20? It was one of those things where it's like...

1:54:21Griffin Newman:you know, you were, is there a saturation point? Like, will they eventually do all the comedians? And then you're after a couple of years later, you're like, yep, yep. They did it. They did all the comedians. David,

1:54:31David Sims:let me ask you a question. Yeah. Who are your guys? There you go. So there's, there is that. Hope you liked the episode next week. True grit. Stavros Halkius, the comedian, the rebel rouser, the podcaster, the man, the myth, the legend, on the show, Talkin' True Grit, good ep. I think you're gonna like that one. Lane Montgomery did our music WTF version of the theme extra noodley. Macaroni. Linguini. I don't know. I don't know what I'm saying. Okay. Catch you all next time. Bye.

1:55:32I love you.

1:55:51Griffin Newman:Blank Check with Griffin and David is hosted by Griffin Newman and David Sims. Our executive producer is me, Ben Hosley. Our creative producer is Marie Barty Salinas. And our associate producer is AJ McKeon. This show is mixed and edited by AJ McKeon and Alan Smithy. Research by JJ Birch. Our theme song is by Lane Montgomery in The Great American Novel, with additional music by Alex Mitchell. Artwork by Joe Bowen, Holly Moss, and Pat Reynolds. Our production assistant is Minnick. Special thanks to David Cho, Jordan Fish, and Nate Patterson for their production help. Head over to BlankCheckPod.com for links to all of the real nerdy shit.

1:56:30Griffin Newman:Join our Patreon, Blank Check Special Features, for exclusive franchise commentaries and bonus episodes. Follow us on social at BlankCheckPod. Subscribe to our weekly newsletter, Checkbook, on Substack. This podcast is created and produced by Blank Check Productions.