Barton Fink with Chris Weitz

10:52David Sims:It just translates into Joel Silver swinging in and giving them the biggest budget they will have until True Grit.

11:00Griffin Newman:Hudsucker is their biggest budget. So it's 25 mil. Big Lebowski costs less. Yeah. That's one where I was kind of like, because that movie is sort of... And Lebowski is kind of. Oh Brother costs 26. Okay. With inflation. But you know. It's like they become these guys kind of pretty much post this. Right. But you know maybe even starting a little bit with Most Crossing where it's like they can get a pretty good budget. Yes. For an elaborate-ish movie. Like a period film or something like that. They work pretty responsibly. Because they're really, really well known for going like working on time and under budget.

11:38David Sims:And the other thing is they get an all-star cast of people who will work for below their quote. Like it's just they always can get a sort of like a cast that makes sense for foreign financing. But very often I think in their career you have this like these duo relationships between movies of like Fargo's the guarantor for Big Lebowski, which then bounces. So then they need to make a comeback from Lebowski, you know, like this constant back and forth. It's interesting how much the big Lebowski's bouncing just doesn't matter anymore, right? It doesn't matter. Yeah. But it was a thing. At the time, it was seen as like...

12:12David Sims:It was a thing. It was seen as... We just took these guys seriously, and now they're fucking off. Right. And making like a joke movie. Right. They had just won their first Oscar, and it was like, we've anointed you guys, and then what the fuck is this? Right. I'm kind of interested in what your guys' perception is of where they stand in the pantheon. Because to me, they're the greatest living filmmakers. because of their sheer range. You can argue about any number of other things. I'm kind of inclined to agree with you. I do not dislike a one of their films, and I don't know who else I can say that for who has made this many films or even close to this many films, certainly living today, let alone in history.

12:50I also will say our guest today is Chris White.

12:54David Sims:Here he is. Hello. A renowned director and writer, producer in his own right. Renowned. Previously and now once again, part of a brother team of filmmaking. Yes, we're back together, me and my brother Paul. But you've been Oscar nominated. Yes, that's true. You've had your hits. You've had your bounces. I can't take that away from you. I've been pretty bouncy. Actually, this is why... You've been in a tigger mode. Of late, I've been bouncing. You've been tiggering a little bit. It's tiggering. Yeah. And actually, that's part of why the Barton Fink of it all really appealed to me because today...

13:29First of all, I'm back. You're back. Three years. three years away three years in the desert four that's what's crazy

13:35David Sims:three four are you sure about this

13:38Griffin Newman:yes I looked it up just now he was last on our show for Darkman in April 2022 okay and it's now it's April 2025

13:49David Sims:when we're recording this but it will be about three and a half years between releases yeah yeah I was heading towards what I like to call the Yoshida line where it's like ten ten episodes uh-huh yeah And then I kind of fell off the face of the earth. And I don't think it's not you guys. It's like... You know, someone on the Reddit called it out and said, how has it been three years since Whites was on the podcast last? And I think we texted you and were like, that doesn't sound right. Like once we checked it, we were like, fuck, it has been three years. You have not been on since we recorded in Ben's living room.

14:26That's right. In the living room area. It was very post, just post-pandemic. Yes, just post-pandemic. Like I remember I took a COVID test on the way there. Yeah, absolutely. Out of common courtesy back then.

14:37David Sims:But it definitely, it did not feel like that much time had elapsed. We still talk to you fairly. Oh, no, listen, I hear you guys all the time. Right. And you've done us some mitzvahs. You've submitted a question for our live mailbag and stuff. I think the question was, why are you guys so great? Well, it was very sweet. But here's the bigger thing. it feels like you have been in a sort of uh uh a real uh kind of a barton funk a barton funk yeah and you have sent a lot of like dark night of the soul text david and i not to be alarmist but a real like what is the point of doing this pursuing this kind of career this industry what is my life amounting to where david and i late at night are like chris is he okay we're good We had to get him back.

15:23David Sims:You're good, Chris. So, yeah, but this is like, I've been thinking about this episode for weeks, if not months, of like, I'm going to go there in terms of like inside baseball. And also, I'm telling you guys to stop me when it gets like too up my own. Never. But in terms of like, you know, this is sort of what's happening in my career. And these are my reflections on it, my somewhat acid reflections on working in a studio sort of world, basically. But here's what I think is interesting, important for the listeners to know. Maybe a little under a year ago, when your last movie, Afraid, Afraid.

16:01Griffin Newman:Afraid. Afraid. Okay, by the way. Which was originally called They Listen, correct? Even before that, actually, the real name of this movie was Home, and we couldn't use it. And then it went through a number of… You couldn't use it because there have been a lot of other movies called Home. Yeah, I think that's why. And then it got changed by various marketing departments. and the studio to things where I was like, fine, whatever. Well, sorry, you were saying.

16:26David Sims:I was saying that movie came out. We'll get more into it, but you had a long, exhausting journey with that movie that really came out the other end of it being like, what am I even doing here? Came out the other end, like the rectum of the studio system. A couple weeks after it was not really released, but escaped into theaters, you text us and we're like, guys, I think it's time for me to come back on the podcast. And most specifically, the insight I want to provide is I am now someone who has made a movie that doesn't exist. And I would like to do a movie that doesn't exist that you guys are covering and talk about the road paved with good intentions that lead to these sort of weird non-movies.

17:06Yeah. And then actually, and then I started to think, well, OK, what is the taxonomy of flop bomb movie that doesn't exist?

17:14Griffin Newman:Because afraid is not a bomb or whatever. It's more. No offense. No, it needs to be big enough to be a bomb. It's a little movie that doesn't exist. Bonds are noticeable, like, hence bomb. But I feel like a movie needs to have existed for you to think that it doesn't exist. I disagree with that.

17:30David Sims:Here's why I think it passes the movie that doesn't exist test. Right. Because if you say to someone, hey, do you remember Afraid? Uh-huh. The Jon Cho, Catherine Waterston, Chris White's directed Blumhouse AI horror film? Right. They'd go like, when's that coming out? Oh, Friends of Mine. Right. would ask me. That's the movie that doesn't exist test, which is, if you describe it to someone, they'd go, I would remember if that came out. It's a Mandela effect kind of thing. Right. You're describing elements that would have made some impact. That's the movie that doesn't exist effect. So we were like, okay, let's keep our eyes open for the next right movie that doesn't exist.

18:10David Sims:You're texting us during March Madness about who you're excited about, you know, potential ideas. What are the movies that don't exist in those filmographies? Then the Coens win. and David and I just immediately go, we got to have Christy Barton think. I know it's the opposite of what he said he wanted to do, but it is kind of the movie about how movies that don't exist come into being in a certain way. Yeah. I mean, it's a very, it's like, maybe their most astringent film, right? There is less joy in this movie. Although there is like, there's virtuosity, but I'd say like than so many other of their films.

18:43David Sims:I think this is one of the most sickly looking films I have ever seen. It is like disgusting to look at. And it is the first Deakins movie. He's perhaps the greatest living cinematographer. And this is the beginning of his like miracle run with them. And yet the success of the lensing of this movie is that it makes me want to vomit at all times. And that look is a reflection of like the soul of the characters and the tone and the sound design. And yet getting back to our original point, when you ask the Coen brothers about it, they're like, we've actually had like a really lucky run in Hollywood.

19:16Right.

19:16David Sims:None of this is based on our own experiences. We just thought this was a funny structure to make jokes. That is the interesting thing, which is that it wasn't based on the experiment of being dicked over by the studio because they hadn't become studio creatures. Nor did they ever, really. No, not really. I mean, back to our point, they sort of have always figured out the exact right size to stay at where their movies seem like a bargain for the people writing the checks. And they're like, if you can keep it there and you can put these 10 actors in it, then yeah, do whatever you want.

19:44Griffin Newman:Yeah. It was more fun. I'm sorry. It was more, not fun. It was more making fun of the classic art versus commerce. Yes. You know, sort of struggle of the golden age of Hollywood.

19:58David Sims:I feel like this movie is more than anything them reckoning with their own internal battle in their minds of who they want to be as filmmakers as their reputation is starting to get built.

20:08Griffin Newman:You know, it is the writer's block movie. Right. it's about other things too but like no bet no movie better like tackles the experience of not

20:17David Sims:being able to write but a quote that blew my mind in the dossier that jj pulled up is they were like we have never we have no unproduced screenplays in our drawer like at this point in time now they do and they have over time let other people direct unproduced screenplays of theirs eventually but they were like at this point in time everything we've written has gotten made we have not gone through this ringer we have not done writing for assignment would it run yeah it's wild I feel like there was some original point I was going to make when I

20:50Griffin Newman:Barton Fink said you're

20:51David Sims:an esteemed filmmaker and I'll get back to it

20:53Griffin Newman:Chris Weitz is an esteemed filmmaker he's an esteemed filmmaker we have to admit it he has worked in Hollywood for 25 years what are we talking about here like I guess was Ants your first Hollywood experience credited screenplay but my brother and i've been working for seven years before that so i got i found out that i got my first gig on my 21st birthday so as long as i have been uh uh able to drink wow legally i have been uh within the system did you have celebratory drinks that night um that night and every night well interestingly what what it did probably was contribute to the sense that I had early in my career that, that like I was a golden child, right?

21:38Like, oh, here's your birthday present. You get to be in this industry. And you know, so I'm going to start, begin the career story. Like, so, so get to work on, on Ants before Woody Allen is canceled. So that was kind of a big deal. People love that.

21:53David Sims:Look, I say it all the time. Fantastic screenplay. Thanks, man. Ants is very well written. People, people really liked that. And then, so we had the studio meeting at universal and uh there's this uh this uh movie that was eventually going to become american pie we didn't have any directing experience my brother and i and they offered us to to direct um and and like i didn't know anything i'd never been to prom like like david i would i grew up in england right i went to uh to sixth form there um they didn't have prom uh and i was like i don't really like uh teen sex comedies but i was like okay let's do this let's try to make it kind of interesting uh it was like no response from david for any of this we just have to call his ass out.

22:32It's retired. Astounding. It, you know, it was this kind of unlikely hit, incredibly profitable. And I was like, there had not,

22:43Griffin Newman:like, there's no, is there anything in the water when American Pie is a big hit where it's like, oh, we didn't see the teen sex comedy revival coming. You know what I mean? Because with Scream, it's sort of like, ah, slashers are back.

22:57David Sims:Can I throw out my take on it? She's all, that's 98 i feel like that sort of gets credit for being like the start of the new wave of our teen movies back right 98 is also something about mary yeah that there you go right and that's like the saucy comedy american pie is sort of you guys synthesizing those two things together yeah which kind of by mistake right yeah i mean they had both started the year before and you're like at the right place at the right time to have the movie that capitalizes on both things that were coming back yeah in retrospect it was just happenstance but like that you know and it was like okay and then we were offered every single uh teen sex comedy for like a year like i never want to do this again right yeah i was like this wasn't my thing man you don't do the sequels right yeah i i i i had never really seen many teen sex comedies obviously the required like viewing if you're my age of like porkies and whatever blah blah blah but um so then we're like oh we got to not do this we got to do something different my brother and i so we did a movie with chris rock right Like, Down to Earth is the second one.

24:01Down to Earth.

24:01David Sims:But, like, beyond that, you remake Heaven Can Wait. You remake Heaven Can Wait. Calling it a Chris Rock movie is, like, underselling. That's, like, a big swing. It was a big swing. At the moment, you know what? I thought, I had a fantastic time working with Chris Rock and a good time working on that movie. I was like, I don't know that that's, like, exactly what I was wanting to do either. But then finally, like, about a boy. It does make sense as a sort of, like, a fairly large-scale comedy.

24:30Griffin Newman:Like, it's a level up from American Pie, but it's not like you're like, hey, can I make a movie with space aliens? Like, it's sort of like, they're like, we can trust you to make a comedy like that. It's a different tone.

24:39David Sims:And Chris Rock was in that state where people were like, can anyone crack how to make him a movie star? Right. Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, and it was like, I can remember, this is like a very Barton Fink moment. Like, our agent saying, this is a go picture, right? Yeah. And we're like, I was like, I don't know. Okay. I like that film quite a bit as well.

24:56Griffin Newman:You also made it fast, I feel like. We did. We were like, and also I was younger then, so you don't think like, oh, this is going to take up years of my life. Is that 2000? It's early 2000s. Valentine's Day, 2001. So, you know, like 18 months later or whatever. Then about a boy, which was like the sweet spot for me and Paul. We go away to London and we make this movie and nominated for an Oscar. It's like, oh, great. This is like, okay, this is me from now.

25:24David Sims:And not to close my computer, but I truly think a perfect movie. like a movie where everything is right but one of my ultimate comfort movies i said this to you but like day two of lockdown i was like what what should i watch that's good and i like jumped to a battle boy immediately i was just like this is what i need to calm me down i'm that makes me very happy i'm glad um yeah and that was like okay here we go uh this is uh you know i'm just gonna keep on, you know, getting nominated for Oscars until I win one. And then, you know, we're going to. To you guys at that point in time, you must have been like, we've cracked it.

25:59David Sims:This is what we want to be as filmmakers. This is the tone. This is the final product. This is how we want to be seen and perceived. Yep. Yeah. Okay. And then I read, while we're shooting About a Boy, I read The Golden Compass in England. It's called Northern Lights. And I was like, oh, this is fantastic. I love this book. I love this author. I want to live in this book for a while. And so I get the gig of doing Golden Compass.

26:26Griffin Newman:First writing or no, it was like you were going to direct. It was to direct. And then I dropped out because I had, I really got the willies. I was like, holy shit, this is going to be a huge movie. And I'm not sure that I can handle the entire logistical load of this. And so I don't know.

26:40David Sims:I think a lot about a thing you said to me previously, which was the best decision I ever made in my life was quitting the Golden Compass as director. And the worst decision I ever made was deciding to go back. Kind of. because, yeah, because, look, it was a huge movie. It was the most expensive movie that had ever been made at the time. We had to work to get it down to$190 million budget. So I'm going from like... Yeah. And so, like, I mean, so there was this gigantic kind of CGI element, huge production design element. And are you basically like prepping that, I mean, working, developing that while you're making In Good Company?

27:19No, my brother was making In Good Company. I'm sorry. We went our separate ways.

27:24David Sims:So about a boy's the last one. About a boy's the last one.

27:27Griffin Newman:Why did you just kind of consciously go like, I want to do this, I want to do this. These are very different things. We're going to do different things. Yeah, we were sort of presented with the possibility that one of us would have to force the other not to do the thing that they want to do. And we're like, we don't want to do that. Now, this read Cohen's, and then we can return to your career. Of course. No, let's go. American Pie is credited as being directed by Paul White. Yeah. You are a producer on it. Down to Earth is credited to both of you, right? So did you get DGA approval as a team at that point?

27:57Griffin Newman:Yes. Famously, the Coens do not get that until, I think, the Lady Killers. It's like somewhere in the mid-2000s, the DGA is finally like, we acknowledge that you are essentially a two-headed director.

28:08David Sims:Right. They didn't like to grant that to anybody. They still don't. I think the Coens helped break it down a little bit.

28:15Griffin Newman:There are brother, it's usually sibling teams. That's the thing. There's the occasional like Jonathan Dayton, Valerie. I was going to say, married couple is the other one. Like it's easier. Is Anna Bode and Ryan Fleck, they're married, right? They're not.

28:27David Sims:Weren't they a couple? They were a couple, but they are now both married to other people. They haven't been together romantically in over a decade.

28:33Griffin Newman:But they are obviously, there's the American Splendor team, Polcini and Bergman.

28:39David Sims:But this is right. I think part of it is if you are bonded by blood or by law, it is easier to make your case to the DGA because they're like, well, you have a bond that is established in another realm. Yeah. You literally need to make your case. You go into a conference room and there is a council of elders sitting there and you have to explain to them why you should be a team. And they ask you questions trying to poke a hole in your argument. And I remember one of them. Why do they, like, in a way you're splitting money.

29:11Griffin Newman:I've thought about this a lot. Okay. It's because, eventually it's because of the auteur theory. It is because of the DGA's sort of position, which I appreciate, of course, because it's my union, of like, you know, this is a very special role and the film is made by the director. You cannot split it up into various parts so that you don't have some, like, producer. Everyone will be trying to get a director credit. But it's quasi-religious because it leads you into situations where things obviously don't really make sense. Yes. So like my brother and I can't be a director team again, officially.

29:46But you cannot. We cannot. Because you split up.

29:49David Sims:They said when I remember, and I had forgotten this. Jedi Council shit. You were saying this to us right before we started recording. I was like, pin this, save this. Because your show has just come out on Apple Plus at the time this episode's come out, Murderbot, which is the first thing you guys have fully worked on together since About a Boy. Exactly. Although you've like produced things together and like helped each other. Or this is like, but you couldn't get fucking credited for directing the episodes together. No, because apparently 20 years ago when we got the license to do it.

30:20Griffin Newman:About a Boy also directed by the pair of you. That's right. Yeah. They said, would you ever split up again if you found things that you were interested in doing separately? And we said, of course not. Because I don't know, the time didn't make sense. But they've held us to that. Wow. And we have, yeah, we have been cast out of the garden. as a team.

30:43David Sims:What a lot of teams do if they can't get the guild recognition is what the Coen's did for years, which is like, how do we divide and conquer? And it's like, we co-wrote the screenplay, one of us as credit as producer, one of us as credit as director, we edit under a pseudonym, right? And like try to create a sort of like weird, how do we even out the positions and the power? A conceptual intermeshing so that everyone really understands what's happening. Right. But then it's always the thing of just like, well, they obviously just do the whole thing together, right? They're called the Coen brothers.

31:17David Sims:Everyone refers to them that way. They don't talk about like Joel Coen movies.

31:20Griffin Newman:And even so, it took 15 plus years, almost 20 years for the DJ to finally go like, okay.

31:27David Sims:Because does Joel get a solo director nom for Fargo? Yes, absolutely. Right, which is so weird to consider. Oh, no, totally. And then obviously like if one best picture that would have been Ethan's.

31:38Griffin Newman:Correct. And not Joel's. No, Fargo is not. Because Fargo is the only time this comes up because the next time they get a best pick nom is for No Country for Old Men. But yes, like nominated, best picture, Ethan Coen. Nominated, best director, Joel Coen. Right. Like that's, you know, that's how it went. Because the No Country year, they share three Oscar wins together.

31:59David Sims:Correct. The movie wins picture, director, screenplay, and both of them have credits in both positions. But that's, once again, as you said, a thing that had only finally happened. It had just happened.

32:07Griffin Newman:I think it's one movie before that they'd finally gotten the. So that's interesting. But now if you do work together again, you're saying you will have to do a sort of like. Well, yeah, the director. We did. We have to split it up. And by the way, I think, I hope I don't get in trouble for saying this, but I think the DGA doesn't say that like there are, there are certain things on the set that only a director can do. And my God, maybe there are shit. Maybe I'm in trouble. But like, they don't really care if a producer talks to an actor or they act like a

32:32David Sims:director per se. Well, there's also the other thing of like, Like, there are things that a director can't do. Well, the myth is that they can't talk to extras. And I'm not sure that that is actually true. Because first ADs almost always end up directing background actors. Yes. And I had always assumed that was because of some weird guild guideline. This may be true. In Canada, that is not the case. Maybe it is in America. Fascinating. And I think that there was like something where like if the director talks to an extra, they become, first of all, they get bumped up instantly. And they're like, oh, you can't talk to them because, oh, sure, sure.

33:14David Sims:Right. Huh. The second the director is shaping their performance versus like the first AD talking to a crowd. Yes. Yes. And the moment that an extra says a word that can actually be distinguished also, which, you know, the game is always that extras are occasionally trying to say things or to elicit a line. because then I think you get into sort of SAG stuff. Right, then you become eligible. Right, so ADs are always saying like, you know, you can sort of say the kind of thing that a crowd says like, they can't say words that people would actually say. Nothing can be distinct enough to make out.

33:50David Sims:Yeah.

33:55David Sims:David. Yes. I got myself into a real pickle. Uh-oh. I thought it'd be funny to put on some Groucho Marx glasses. Very, very funny, very funny classic. Yeah, well, I've been stuck wearing them for five years because it's such a hassle to replace your glasses that once I made that commitment, now I'm walking around with the big schnoz, the eyebrows, the mustache, all times.

34:15Griffin Newman:I know what you're saying. Glasses cost hundreds of dollars. You know, you just kind of live with whatever you've got. Wait a second. What about Zeni Optical?

34:22David Sims:I forgot about Zeni Optical.

34:24Griffin Newman:Zeni Optical is an online eyewear shop with stylish prescription glasses, sunglasses, and customizable lens options at prices that make it easy. Expensive prices. No.

34:33David Sims:To own more than one pair, it starts at under$30. I got some new sunglasses from Zenni and I'm loving them. I got some aviators. Green lenses.

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35:23David Sims:Okay, wait, so Golden Compass. Golden Compass, okay. People just want to hear about the Coen Brothers, and I'm sorry, but I'm just going to go there. Like, so, okay, I now have a theory that there was an original sin on the Golden Compass, which is that I knew that the stuff about the Catholic Church was going to be too toxic for New Line to want to deal with. Sure. And they told me that, and I was like, it's going to be fine, no problem. And then I sort of sneakily, you know, infused my cut and my film with all these things. And then in post-production, everything went totally wrong where they freaked out about this whole thing, wanted to change the ending, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

36:00I was eventually kicked out of the editing room. And I would like to say, like, it's the typical thing of being hard done by a studio, but I should have known better. And when I think about my latest movie, too, I think there's an original sin there as well. But by the way, I want to say before I complain about studios, I love Blumhouse and I love all the people there. They're fantastic. They're great. So none of the things I say actually apply to these guys. they're the producers on this.

36:26Griffin Newman:I mean, the people who screwed you on Golden Compass no longer exist. I mean, the people exist, but New Line, the entity that you dealt with then, had ceased to exist. I basically brought down a studio. It's partly your fault. It's that movie's fault. But also, the trailer for that movie,

36:43David Sims:I remember so distinctly, is the ring from The Lord of the Rings rotating in slow motion and then turning into a Golden Compass. That was like an early promoting thing. No, but wait, wait, wait, wait. Oh, sorry. That was my fault. Really? My fault. It was my fault. I was kind of, at the time, like, things were really stressful with the studio. And I was like, fuck it. I know what they want. In 2001, the cinema opened the door.

37:10Griffin Newman:Yeah. And you see a ring. Yeah, wow. Yeah. I mean, to middle earth. I mean, it's a little, I'm just going to say, it's a little on the nose. It's a little. No, it is totally truckling. And I think it was at a moment where I was like back on my heels. They were there like kind of how do I win back favor?

37:28David Sims:Yeah, right. Making them feel I'm a team player. But then that also, of course, like fucks you and putting even more pressure on the movie. We're now like you're saying the quiet part out loud. Yeah, that was always the design of this movie is the Lord of the Rings trilogy has ended. Yeah, we don't have the rights to the Hobbit. How do we find our next Lord of the Rings? Yes. And now you're like telling them to market the movie. Like we promise you this is the new Lord of the Rings. The pressure was always going to be there because they spent so much money. No, you didn't create that narrative, but now you're underlining it and delivering it to the public.

37:59No, this is like, so a big movie like that where everyone is freaking out constantly, messes with your head. And so you end up like kind of going slightly punch drunk and doing crazy things.

38:12David Sims:Yeah, no, I get it. I'm also like, I mean, to your point of the original sin thing, right? Like you're in this sort of catch 22 where it's like, okay, they go, we'll give you a green light, but yeah. And the condition they throw out to you is like anathema to successfully adapting this thing. Yeah. So you're like, what's your choice here? You do what they want. And then you're making what fundamentally is a broken version of the movie in your eyes. And that's correct. It would be broken. Well, or you try to smuggle it in and get it past them. But of course they then have the right to go. You fucking tricked us.

38:48David Sims:and be angry about it.

38:50Griffin Newman:Yeah.

38:50David Sims:They fucked up.

38:51Griffin Newman:Look, I mean, the whole thing with the Northern Lights, the book, is that it's plainly in the text and it's less in the first book, right? Like the church stuff is way less in the first book. You have to sow the seeds. By the third book, they are truly, literally, spoiler alerts for his dark material, killing God. Yeah. Like they kill him. It's hard to soft battle that one. Right. But so by that point, I think the whole trilogy had come out. You know, the books had all been... So it's like, we know where that alethiometer is pointing.

39:22David Sims:The whole pressure is you need to be able to make the sequels to this. We want this to complete the book series. So you're going to have to get there. Yeah. Here's a question for you. So getting to the moment of About a Boy where it's like, this is it. This is the movie that represents what I'd like to be as a writer, director, how I'd like to be seen in the industry. That's my question. Like, you had not made a film like Golden Compass to some degree as new line like, oh, we want that Chris White's feeling. Is there like an X factor you can bring to this much like Jackson, not seeming like the obvious choice to do Lord of the Rings at that time.

39:56David Sims:Like, is there a sensitivity? Is there emotionality? Yeah. Was there a thing they were quantifying or that you were trying to weaponize as like, here's my feeling. This is the Chris White's touch. I think I had a Barton Fink-y feel, but there was a Barton Fink feeling at the time. Definitely. Like you, you definitely have pixie dust, right? Um, like, uh, you'd made about a boy, right? Made about a boy and also like, oh, he made this like small movie or he and his brother made this small movie that made like 10 times as much as its budget. Like, let's like, let's do it. I feel like you also told me, I think it was maybe when you very briefly appeared on one of the interminable George Lucas pandemic live streams.

40:35David Sims:And Connor and I only wanted to ask you questions about the clumps. I have never been on the George Lucas. You have. It was really brief. It was like early lockdown and we were raising money for charity and watching all the Star Wars movies. And we had you zoom in during Rogue One. And then I think like five minutes into you being on something happened with one of your kids. Not too dramatic. But you were like, I'm so sorry. I have to go. And Connor for years was like, did I piss him off? Not at all. Because we had you zoom in while we're watching Rogue One. And then we were like, the funny bit is let's only ask him questions about Nutty Professor 2, the clumps.

41:12Griffin Newman:Which you are. credited as right or wrong. Along with various other people. There was a great moment at a Q &A, because you go on these Q &As when you get nominated for the Oscar, and people ask you questions, and they list your credits. And it's like, you know, also nominated is blah, blah, blah, Chris Weitz, this and that, and Nutty Professor 2, The Clumps. And I was like, oh, God.

41:33David Sims:Connor and I were very united on this bit. And then you were like, gentlemen, I'm so sorry, but I do have to go right now. And Connor was like, he's irate. and I was like, I really don't think that's Chris's vibe. You don't. But you said to us. Right. It seems like it'd be hard to really piss you off. We were like, how did you end up being accredited right around the clumps? And you said something to the effect of at that point in time, my brother and I had a reputation for like, we could take comedies and put a little more genuine feeling in them. Without being saccharine, that was the white's feeling was a core of a sweetness and an emotion that feels earned.

42:09David Sims:In theory. In theory. That is what I still can do. Still have a heart.

42:16Griffin Newman:It's in there somewhere, folks. If you pay enough, you get it. So there's an original sin on my last movie, A For Aid, which is like, this movie was a paranoid thriller like The Parallax View. and the studio, which shall remain nameless, wanted it to be a horror movie so much that there's a number of decisions that... To make it sort of jumpier and a little more like... More horror-y. The film which I've seen, has anyone else seen A Forade? No.

42:49David Sims:Bricketts. Griffey? I admittedly have not out of respect to the fact that I know the final film that was released was not reflective of what you were trying to do. I am very ambivalent as to whether I want people to see it or not. Exactly. like a long kind of pamphlet for me about like what. I've been curious to watch it, but I haven't seen it for that exact reason because you had relayed that ambivalence to it.

43:07Griffin Newman:I watched it knowing that you had had a bit of a tough time making it, but not really knowing any detail at all. And right as it started, I was like, oh, I can see Chris here right away in the family and in how the movie is kicking off and stuff. But then, yes, it does have that sort of the first Purge movie, not the movie, the first Purge, but the Purge, the first of the Purge movies where they're like, let's do our concept as a home invasion movie because that's cheap and that's like a way to sort of suggest something bigger but still have like the sort of reliable horror of a home invasion movie.

43:41David Sims:We can cut this out if I'm saying anything that I shouldn't say. No, let's go. I remember getting lunch with you. I was visiting L.A. and it was maybe only a month or two after you had wrapped the movie and Megan had just come out. Mithrigan. Mithrigan, of course. and they had announced that your movie was being pushed back a year. And I was like, what's going on with this? How do you feel about this? And it was just sort of like, I'm told it's a good thing. They want more time. They might want to try some things. But there was already this sense of like, is Mathrigan being a hit creating some expectation of what this movie needs to be or not be in relation to that?

44:19David Sims:And I also remember you just talking about how pleasant a time you had in the initial production of the film and being like, I have been so burned out on the industry and frustrated and heartbroken by these different things. The idea of finding like a very personal story, me telling an emotional movie about the way I feel about my family and keeping children safe, you know, in a world that's a little bit terrifying. And I can disguise it in just enough horror movie trappings to get it through in a low budget way, unencumbered. And then like a year and a half later, everything had gone upside down.

44:54David Sims:Right. But you were sort of like, I think I've cracked the code. If it's this small and I have two marketable elements, it's this and that, the stakes are low enough that maybe they let me make my thing my way and get it out there. See, I thought I was clever. I thought I was smarter than the system. But it is a playback that has been working. That has been like the most consistent way to get kind of emotionally, psychologically complex movies out there. It really helps if you love the kind of product that they want in the end, as opposed to thinking, I'm going to sort of sugar this pill. And so the movie started when I was talking to my friend, Hani Abu Asad, wonderful filmmaker.

45:36And he was like, I was like, I don't know what to do next. And he was like, well, what's on your mind like right now, as I talk to you right now? And I was like, well, I guess, you know, my kids are like spending time on the screen and a kind of like a worry because you can sort of try to take care of them as much as you like. But like our home is like, it's next door to the internet, which is a really, really bad neighborhood no matter what. There's no way to protect people. And that's what the whole movie is about. It's like you cannot protect your children from the world. And then, you know, it becomes like a movie about a killer AI.

46:05And by the way, the year in which it was delayed was a year for AI to develop to such a shocking extent that anything timely that it had to say about AI was already like, yeah, we know.

46:19David Sims:But like you're not getting hired to develop a Walter Beery AI thriller. You're looking in the mirror. You're talking to your friend. You're saying.

46:28Griffin Newman:I'm going to take this computer down. Right. Walter Beery. Walter Beery is a real guy, Ben. Like Walter Beery was like a classic burly 30s star B picture kind of star. Probably exactly what you mean. With a name Wallace Beery. Wallace Beery.

46:40David Sims:Wallace Beery. Yeah. Yes. I'm sorry. Wallace Beery. Wally Beery. Yeah. I just, it might sound like an unimportant distinction. oh wow look at that guy but the difference between you like getting hired to make an ai thriller and then going what's the personal story i can smuggle inside of this versus going what am i feeling right now and what is the way i can dramatize that into an idea that is sellable yeah but then as it as it goes through the like the the process of um you know uh of the of the way that studios put out movies it just gets twisted twisted along the way and this is like no shit but but like you know you go to like marketing screenings and one of the first questions they will ask of an audience is um was there anything that you found confusing yeah right and and of course that that is priming the pump because the moment like an audience actually has a right to be confused and and to not feel as though everything is resolved and explained but but like inherent to the system when this much money is spent is like a sort of deracinating of of the original intent i have gone to like friends and family screenings, the roughest cuts, right?

47:49David Sims:Of folks just being like, I just, before we have to go to like blind test screening. Sure, I want someone to sort of know to. I want like 15 people who also work in the industry or friends of mine or whatever, cold audiences, but a warm audience, you know, at the same time. And the lights will come up. And I've seen people make this mistake several times where they go like, so what do you guys think? Anything like jump out to you immediately? that you bumped on or that you had questions about. Bumped on, yeah. And people are sort of like, no, basically, you know, this or that. Or they might call out one thing of like, I missed that line or whatever it is.

48:23David Sims:The second a leading question is thrown out, the filmmaker expresses their anxiety about something they weren't sure would work and go, hey, was anyone confused by this thing? Then suddenly every single person in the room goes, now that you mentioned, I do actually think. You're fucked. and then starts offering their notes on what it should be instead. Yep. You're totally straight at that point. You can't ask people that. No. So Barton Fink then. His... Barton Fink. It's in a way...

48:55Griffin Newman:The fourth Coen Brothers movie. It looks at the studio, right? In a negative fashion. But also Barton Fink. It is very scathing about Barton Fink himself. And his conceit. Absolutely. His blasphemous conceit. It is the brilliance of this movie.

49:07David Sims:It's like this guy is a fool and he's like arrogant. he's unpleasant so this is my favorite

49:15Griffin Newman:Coen Brothers film I think kind of without a doubt I know this for many I love a lot of the great Coen Brothers movies like Fargo and Serious Man and Raising Arizona and whatever, No Country and you can kind of talk me into a lot of Coen Brothers movies and ranking movies is a little silly anyway but this movie profoundly affected me when I saw it when I was like 19, I want to say. Like I was in college and I was sort of, I think like, well, I've loved the Coen brothers since I discovered them as a teenager, but like now it's time for me to watch every Coen brothers movie I've never seen. Yeah.

49:53Griffin Newman:And I've only probably seen this movie like four or five times because it's not, Barton Fink is not a movie you're just all the time like, you know, hey, Barton Fink's on cable, right? You know. It's like the Simpsons. Barton Fink. We have to, of course,

50:06David Sims:acknowledged that moment in the simpsons which is amazing that entire run of like the the stealth runner of simpsons jokes that are the kids getting excited in the wrong direction for 90s art house movies always funny the naked lunch i can think of two problems i have with that title very funny

50:26Griffin Newman:um i'm familiar with the works of pablo neruda it's a slightly different version of it but anyway i watched this movie a couple days ago to prepare for this podcast and i was like i don't think I've seen Barton think in years I put it on and I was like I could close my eyes right now and I'd be fine like I know this movie so well it is so impressed on me it is one of the most influential movies for me in terms of just like mood and tone and the way its story works I don't

50:52David Sims:know how to describe this it's also an incredible film analysis movie like it is a movie that is basically it isn't consciously designed to be studied but it's like a fucking playground if you're someone who has a mind where you want to fucking break apart movies and try to figure out how to read them you know and like even i this was my second time watching it i watched it last night i saw probably around the same age as you david sure sure sure there was uh i guess 2008 2009 moma uh did a comprehensive cohen retrospective of all the movies they made up until that point and Barton Fink and Hudsucker were maybe my only two blind spots at that point.

51:37David Sims:They were playing on the same day. I saw Hudsucker in the morning. Where? I got lunch at MoMA. Both of them. And then I saw Barton Fink. Hudsucker is my favorite Coen Brothers movie. That has to do so much with just my taste and my sensibilities. I do not think it is one of their five best films. It is a movie I've watched endlessly and it means so much to me. And I was just like, holy shit, that's Hudsucker? that's the one that people don't like.

52:03Griffin Newman:Obviously I know and we'll talk about how dearly you love Hudsucker which I also dearly love. But Hudsucker has your manic It's my vibe. Have you seen Hudsucker? Yes. I mean like it's got Griffin energy up the wazoo. Definitely. The haunted hotel or the trapped in a hotel thing is my favorite thing in the world. We're going to talk about this at length. And of course there are other versions of that. What are other versions of that? Shining of course. shining that's a great example of course uh yes duh jesus david what a genius i am i thought you're just giving me an easy one yeah so finish your thought no just that i

52:42David Sims:was not disappointed by barton fink but i was writing on such a high by how much i loved hudsucker and how much it surprised me right that in my mind hudsucker the hudsucker for the first

52:52Griffin Newman:time experience always eclipses barton fink uh yeah you you by putting them up the same day i've

52:57David Sims:seen hud sucker upwards of 10 times since then but i got to see both movies for the first time on a big screen with a proper crowd on a beautiful print had not watched barton fink again until last night and yet i had the exact same experience as you where i'm like yeah i basically remember every single element of this it's pretty spare i mean yeah right it's not it's it's very primal in its own weird egghead-y way. Yeah. I was thinking about David Lynch a lot when watching this. I feel like it's a little bit in conversation with some of the aesthetic. Like there's a shot which feels David Lynch, like when just going down the drain.

53:37Absolutely. Right? And there's the hairdo. There's Barton Fink's hairdo, which feels eraser head adjacent. For sure.

53:44David Sims:And just that sort of feeling of like everything is just a little wrong. This is so immaculately made. It is so tightly controlled. You get the clear sense from the first frame to the last. There's not a single decision in this movie that isn't intentional. And yet some of it feels deeply inscrutable. And all of it conjures some feeling within you. Not that Barton Fink feeling, but this sort of like, what's wrong? What is this movie doing and why? Yeah, I think that may be what won it, the Palme d 'Or, right? Because I remember when they won, it was kind of like, American boys bring home gold.

54:23I kind of had that feeling, right?

54:24David Sims:It was, weirdly, the third film in a three-year streak of American Palme d 'Or winners, which was like an unusual swing.

54:33Griffin Newman:So Sex Lies is the year before. And then Wild at Heart. Wild at... Oh, no, it's... Sorry, it's Wild at Heart, then Sex Lies. Then Sex Lies. Right. Okay. And it is, of course, an incredibly exciting time for American independent cinema.

54:47David Sims:and you know whatever uh by the second half of the 90s the the joke that billy crystal keeps making is that like the studios can't get a movie nominated for best picture anymore you know like this is the start of the wave that by the end of the 90s is just like the american independent cinema is exciting is thrilling there's something happening here and audiences are engaged and then that dream sort of starts to die yeah but um haunted hotels

55:15Griffin Newman:griff i mean what i mean i'm very dorky of me but the 1408 well of course 1408 do not go in there yeah um i think it's i told you not to go in there i mean i told you me and my brother would always fixate on that moment in the trailer right samuel jackson shows up while some shit is

55:32David Sims:happening i told you not to go it's also like look it's not like they're ruining anything by putting that in the trailer but you're like i don't need to see this scene i can guess that sam jack's gonna come back at the end and say i told you so wait which i see i'm 1408 is a

55:44Griffin Newman:mid-sized horror movie from the late 2000s directed by I want to say Mikael Hofstrom. That is based on something Stephen King coughed onto a wall once or whatever. It's a short story.

55:58David Sims:The pulpier, trashier midpoint between The Shining and Barton Fink in a certain way. For sure.

56:04Griffin Newman:He checks into a hotel to write a book. It's a guy who's like, I'm checking into a famously haunted hotel room because I'm tough and scary and I know that's all nonsense and then the room like i'm gonna take on the really i love the uh next generation episode of the royale for anyone out there listening from season two which is about a uh like a they arrive on a weird planet that is just a hotel that they cannot leave which is very like an apart from mike i honestly may have been directly inspired by barton fink because it's just like a couple years later you're forgetting four really big ones and is it is it a space hotel Or is this a hotel that seems like an old-fashioned hotel?

56:43Well, watch the episode to find out.

56:44Griffin Newman:It looks like an American hotel from the 30s, but there's... Yes, forgetting, of course, Hotel Transylvania. But everyone at the Hotel Transylvania has a good time.

56:54David Sims:Yeah, but it is fundamentally a haunted hotel. You cannot deny that. I'm not saying the movies are spooky. I suppose so. It is a haunted hotel.

57:00Griffin Newman:Is the hotel haunted?

57:01David Sims:Yeah, by humans, by Johnny. That's true. What about Hostel? Or is that just...

57:06Griffin Newman:I mean, Hostel's sort of there. But I mean, Hostel, it's obviously quite naked, what's going on there. people don't really get to the hostel and are like this place seems really comforting and inviting

57:16David Sims:there's almost a richer history of comedies kind of ripping on the trope you know like Abbott and Costello I guess those are more like you have to spend a night in a spooky castle kind of shit I love that too

57:33Griffin Newman:I'm basically always pro this what is the difference between a haunted house and a haunted hotel great question In terms of a taxonomy of scary places. Because it's the liminal space thing, which has become this, you know, internet sort of world, right, where people are obsessed with what they call liminal spaces. These kind of like bland, anonymous sort of environments like long corridors, samey kind of, right? Do you know what I'm talking about, Ben? I'm not familiar with this.

57:57David Sims:I think something about the promise of the hospitality, you know, being like you are here and you are being taken care of and yet something feels wrong versus like I've just walked into a castle with a candelabra. maybe I shouldn't be here.

58:09Griffin Newman:You know, there's some warning signs here, but it's like a hotel. It's like the idea of like, I'm on a floor with 50 identical rooms and it's one of 15 floors. Right. Your head starts to spin a little bit. Another great example recently, the Eternal Daughter, the Joanna Hog movie, one of my favorite movies of that year, which is also like, she and her mom are at a hotel that no one else is seemingly there, but everyone's kind of behaving like it's normal and it gets weirder and ghostier. Very good movie if you've never seen it.

58:35David Sims:It's not, I mean, it's not quite the same and it's only an aspect of the movie, but Neon Demon has a lot of like, what the fuck's going on in this motel?

58:42Griffin Newman:Yeah, weird motel shit. There's a tiger or something, right? Yeah, and Keanu, yeah. And there's a Keanu.

58:47David Sims:But yes, I always find this very affecting. But this is the best version. I agree. I mean, The Shining is its own thing. Barton Fink could have stayed at a different hotel. The studio wanted to put him up in a nicer place. So that was interesting, because I remember thinking he's getting$2 ,000 a week, King's Ransom. Right, but he wants to be with the people. Yeah. Hotel Earl. But this speaks to the movie having this sort of like, get a load of this fucking guy. He thinks this makes him a greater artist.

59:16Griffin Newman:I think it's starting with the hair. Like you mentioned where it's like he has that hair. Yes, it's to code him as Jewish, which he is like in this way that, you know, like the Coens like to, you know, explore that kind of like what is it to be like kind of loudly Jewish in these kinds of worlds or societies. But also, like, he thinks he can get away with looking like this because he's different and he's artistic. Right.

59:38David Sims:He's not the only Jewish character in the movie. And there are other people who are maybe trying to assimilate more. But it does feel like, to your point, he's, like, accentuating the Jewishness almost as an act of provocation. Right. Right? Like, this guy is taking a stance on I'm trying to make you uncomfortable.

59:54Griffin Newman:Everything about him is provocative in this sort of, like, I'm not like you. I'm not superficial. And I'm not an intellectual. And I'm not a Hollywood type. Right.

1:00:01David Sims:He has this attitude. to every single person he's talking to. A quiet, I'm not like you, and it doesn't matter if the person is higher or lower status. Except for Mahoney.

1:00:13Griffin Newman:That's the one guy that he briefly does seem to be quite entranced by. Although, yeah, we'll get to that.

1:00:18David Sims:You're right. He wants Mahoney to say, you are the same as I am. Exactly.

1:00:21Griffin Newman:I mean, or at least, like, I too know your work, and I, you know, whatever. Like, admire you. There's actually, like, oh, I just said it. There's the use of the word actually is really interesting. in this movie because there's when John Goodman, when Charlie asks him what he does, he says, I'm a writer actually. Yeah. Right? And I'm like, the actually is doing a lot of work because it's like, just say you're a fucking writer. Right. But instead he's like, well, you're probably going to be amazed by this, but I'm a writer actually. There's a little bit of like,

1:00:48David Sims:isn't this charming? Yeah. David, we both would give Goodman Best Supporting Actor this year, right?

1:00:54Griffin Newman:Great question. Let me take a look. I do think it's one of the most incredible performances, but I'm always forgetting, you know, what could its competition be? so 1991

1:01:01David Sims:I looked at the field and I certainly would give him the win over the five nominees

1:01:05Griffin Newman:yeah my five nominees if you want them if you want them yeah for 1991 for Best Supporting Actor are you interested in this at all I would love this please David please John Goodman, my winner for Barton Fink. Keanu Reeves for, speaking of, Neon Demon, Keanu Reeves for my own private Idaho performance I adore. Robert Patrick for Terminator 2. I was wagging my finger. Larry Fishburne for Boys in the Hood. And Samuel L. Jackson for Jungle Fever. Those are my five nominees. Great five. There are five. 1991 is an incredible year for cinema because this film came out and The Silence of the Lambs came out.

1:01:36Griffin Newman:And these are two totemic movies for me. There's a lot of other great movies I love.

1:01:40David Sims:This is a year where they'll get nominations in other categories, but you look at the things that didn't make the best picture cut and it's kind of bananas. Like you have Singleton nominated for director but not picture. You have this nominated for supporting actor. Two Craft Words, kind of insane. It didn't even get a screenplay nom. Inside Baseball?

1:01:58Griffin Newman:Yeah, I think this movie was too niche for whatever, the Oscars. I mean, I can look at the nominees. This argues in favor of there being upwards of 10 best picture nominees. It would have made the 10. I was at a discussion in the director's branch of the Academy in our sort of conference room in which... I might slot Barton Fink over Grand Canyon or Bugsy. Yeah. I'll just... I mean, no offense to those movies. A huge offense to those movies. You're right, I think. Oh, you were in a discussion. We were discussing whether to expand the director's nomination thing to 10. For Oscar? For DGA. Yes. Oh, for DGA.

1:02:38Wait, for the DJ or for the director category? No, no, for the director category of the Oscars. I'm probably going to get kicked out of the Academy now. And Steven Spielberg says, no, I don't think so. I don't even think there should be more than five pick nominees. But that battle has been lost. And I said, as someone who has not won Best Picture, I'm in favor of there being as many as possible, which obviously shows a lot of balls on my part. Like, I should be so lucky.

1:03:03Griffin Newman:Was Spielberg amused by your little bummo? he's a no i would i wasn't joking i mean i was trying to dress it up was he amused by your he didn't seem overly amused but he didn't seem to to want to sanction me either he was very nice i

1:03:17David Sims:mean i also at the time it was framed as like the oscars need to do this because they seem out of touch and things have trended too indie and they're ignoring blockbusters and maybe the 10 will make things a little more open absolutely the other thing which is just like it's good for the fucking industry in a time where it's harder and harder to get serious movies made to let 10 movies brag about being Best Picture nominees.

1:03:38Griffin Newman:I think the 10 thing has been an ambiguous success. I agree. And I think the minute they moved it to, you know, it's between 5 and 10 was less good. Putting it back at 10 has been better. There's rarely a true kind of like, how the fuck did that get a nomination? You know, like, even the stuff I don't really like or whatever, I'm sort of like, yeah, I can see, you know, where this thing's support came from and all that. I think expanding director to 10 would kind of ruin that. I do. Well, but there's a problem in... And then, of course, everyone's going to start expanding everything to 10. You know what I mean?

1:04:09Griffin Newman:There is a snowball. That could happen. But in my branch, the problem was for the directors, well, are there movies without directors? Like, are you saying that there's going to be somebody who's... But that's always going to be the case. That's how it goes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because there are always Best Picture nominees without a directing nominee.

1:04:24David Sims:If you have 10 and 10, it's still not going to line up most of the time. Like, you're going to have the weird, like, is it ruder?

1:04:30Griffin Newman:That would be especially harsh. The true fix that is so clear, and I'm weirded out that the Oscars have never done it, is that a director should get a nomination for Best Picture, no matter what. They should be included in those nominees. It's so obvious, and it's like, I don't know why the producers insist on, I mean, I don't know what that discussion has ever been, but just tag on the director. That's what they do for documentaries. That's what they do for the other feature categories. so that's my take the thing about okay the academy and the problem hear that Oscar? the problem with independent films you know kind of dominating nomination and the academy thinking like oh we're not going to be relevant if like the number one box office film isn't nominated blah blah blah okay we're in a country in which there is no public funding for film this is the big thing and this is the big thing which Barton Fink has to deal with as well and why it's different in France where the government will consider film an actual art form that deserves support most other countries and here it is like that yeah so here we are in this kind of capitalist setup and and uh i like i actually kind of realized like i sort of can't direct studio films anymore because it is impossible to skin the cat so that uh i mean this is unashamedly it is making movies for money right i get it but um but then there's art sort of is inherently crowded out right yeah yeah it's tough

1:05:54David Sims:It's, I mean, I saw Seth Rogen was on Stern talking about the studio, a show that I'm unsurprisingly loving that feels like it was made for me. And when people had described it to me like a year ago when it was being made, I was like, holy shit, I can't believe they're giving him the money to make that. That sounds like so scathing. I will find this cathartic to watch, assuming it was going to be as acidic as like the player, which is clearly a big influence on that show down to it, like sharing a character name. Right. And my surprise in watching the show is that it's like trying to hold the things that are great and the things that are terrible about the industry simultaneously and very close together.

1:06:40Griffin Newman:it's quite a loving show yes like and it does more I would say nibble at the hand that feeds that like outright chomp like it's about it's sort of about how people in that industry want to make good movies well he's the Roman character is kind of a

1:06:56David Sims:Barton Fink figure who's like I've done it I beat the system I've somehow become a very young studio head and what I'm gonna do is somehow sneak important movies back in this guy thinks he can be Robert Evans bit of a buffoon Original Sin. Right. And, like, it represents his quest as good. Like, this is coming from the right place, and yet you just watch this guy fuck it up, and you're like, dude, this is never going to work. And he was giving this interview on Stern, and he said, like, the thing that's great about the industry is there will be one movie that changes everything forever in many ways.

1:07:36David Sims:You basically get, like, one of these movies a year at least where you go like, Barbie changed everything forever. Right. Or at least for a long time, that's now what people are chasing. It's change upon change upon change. What was it this year? What would you say? Was it Anora? I mean, I love Anora. Or you mean last year. I mean, last year. I mean, here's the thing. You could like, a month ago I would have said like Minecraft is the movie that's like changed everything. And now Sinners has already replaced it. And by the time this episode comes out, but you're like, Sinners is a movie that is going to change the way people have discussions in fucking boardrooms.

1:08:07Griffin Newman:One hopes Sinners is the one and changing things and not a Minecraft movie.

1:08:10David Sims:You don't know. But the point is these things can happen, right?

1:08:13Griffin Newman:Multiple things can happen.

1:08:14David Sims:And the thing he said that I thought was really profound is that like, it's great timing for David as I'm getting to the big... Just leave the door open. It takes this insane kind of hubris to think like, I can do it. I can beat the system. I can sneak the thing through and make it work and be lauded as a genius and change things culturally for the better. Yeah. And that's so insane and hubristic to think. And yet people do it. They do it all the time. And if you're not chasing that kind of glory of like kind of slipping one past people and somehow like changing the landscape for the better, then why even bother trying?

1:08:50I think there are some filmmakers who have the wind at their back who are stubborn enough, who are talented enough to like, you know, actually sort of do that in any given period. I think there are like five filmmakers who can work within the studio system. And, you know, they are going to be able to have a really good shot at getting what they want done. You know, Scorsese, I like Still. Yeah.

1:09:16David Sims:Christopher Nolan. You know, there's a few. But people lose it all the time. People win it back. People have it for a moment. I mean, it's like it's the whole fucking framing of this show. Yeah. That like it's not always a lifetime status. And also sometimes the movies that change everything aren't good. You know, they're not net positive, but they do break a certain line of thinking in the way that like Barbie, you're like Barbie is a triumph. And it has felt like the last two years you're watching with every deadline announcement. All of the executives take all of the wrong lessons from it. People are trying to get that.

1:09:50David Sims:Right. Barbie feeling. And Barton Fink is right. This guy who like does not want to work in the movies is almost disgusted when it's proposed to him. they have to sort of like launder the pitch in this sort of credibility of like you know this is like what all the other serious novelists and playwrights do there's nothing like loathes them about this and he's justifying it as like this will help me build the theater of the people well is that contempt with which he comes to the thing combined with his arrogance of i'm such a good writer i should be able to crack this and do it better than the swill that they're settling for

1:10:24Griffin Newman:Right, and of course, it's 1941. Movies are not exactly new, but it is a younger industry. But the industry has, like, formed. It's a nascent art form. The industry is formed. It is settled into a machine. Cinema is art. Yes. Obviously, it's not like nobody talked about cinema as art before the 60s or whatever, but I do think it's the 60s is when people, or the late 50s, start to form proper sort of theories and academic, like, sort of notions of what film is art is. Film analysis as we know it today. So yeah, the 40s, it was still kind of like, yeah, well, this is, you know, this ain't the theater.

1:10:59Griffin Newman:This is swill for, you know, the working man. Right, the possibilities. It's the studio system. So you're signing up to a system in which you're going to be assigned pictures. Yes, you're on contract for one studio and you do what they want. I mean, it's interesting because Barton, so his agent says, you know, this is going to be great and everything. But Barton Fink is kind of, he doesn't really appear with any, seemingly any kind of energy to want to do this. He's just kind of spaced out throughout a lot of the entire movie. The medium doesn't seem appealing to him,

1:11:30David Sims:and he doesn't even seem excited by the idea of what he could leverage the success into, really. He is in a fugue for pretty much most of the movie,

1:11:39Griffin Newman:like a weird kind of dreamy. The movie exists in a dreamy state. The latter half of this movie could be called essentially a dream. It's not like this is a movie where someone wakes up being like, wow, that was crazy. yeah but um and uh you're he always feels like like he's passive in a scene yes you know like even though he's the center of the scene yeah which is like so not sid field uh right three act structure kind of thing this is such a watchable movie for a movie where not much happens and like you know it's much of its uh plot is inexplicable or like much of what's going on is sort of like it's like not that's what the cohen's are so good at like it's kind of a perfect screenplay even though you would never you'd be bananas to teach this screenplay as an example of anything to you know structure your movie as like it's so watchable and like every scene is kind of you're kind of like leaning forward like what's this now i went to mcnally jackson the other day

1:12:34David Sims:and i saw that they had one copy of this which is ethan and joel cohen collected screenplays one so it's blood simple raising arizona miller's crossing barton fink it does not seem like they maybe ever published volume two or on that this is just the same one that i mean at least a compilation they would do like separate peeve i hate when i love that favor and favor publishes these things but i hate that they're not in this in the format of a screenplay that is to say that it's not a page per minute which is like the general guide to like when you're gonna be they reformat it yeah yes um i'd be really interested in what the what this the the uh descriptions are and important thing.

1:13:09David Sims:This is the thing. And I had heard this from people. And I guess I've read excerpts when people post like a page or two of some of their scripts. But I saw this and I was like, I want to have this so I can fucking leaf through this, especially with these first four movies. They are so sparse. They really are just like the absolute least amount of information that needs to be conveyed to the reader. Interesting. So like, because I was thinking, the reason it's watchable to me, even when like it's kind of a punishing film in the way that this film I think kind of is. A little bit. You never know when some funny shit is going to happen.

1:13:42So you're sort of always on your toes. Or some scary shit. Yeah. And are there going to be a great sight gag? And I think that they're really clever in that way. They will resort to comedy in order to keep the artistic arc of things going. Yes.

1:14:03Griffin Newman:Part of the thing, I'm opening the dossier because we should look at it. Famous story of its genesis that like a lot of Coen, because the Coen brothers are discussed, but also just because they do set their legend quite firmly, I feel like with little anecdotes, because there's a lot of Coen masterpieces come

1:14:21David Sims:while making other plans.

1:14:23Griffin Newman:Right. They're trying to script Miller's Crossing, which is their third film, the film they made before this, and they get admitted of an impasse because that's like a complex film about rival gangster, you know, mobs, and there's a lot of... The funniest movie they had made up until that point. Right. and I think they find it a little boring they say like they were not blocked exactly but their rhythm was sort of fucked up and they weren't having fun

1:14:44David Sims:that's a movie that had to be more concerned with mechanics where even if you're not like stuck in writer's block you're doing math and I think these guys they talk so much about that like when they have an idea for a movie they talk back and forth about it and work it out in their heads and then once they start writing they write pretty quickly and I assume it must have been really frustrating for them for the first time to be like stopping That doesn't make sense because he knows that guy. So you have to go to the index cards.

1:15:11Griffin Newman:So they get out of their problems with that story by thinking about another one. They take a vacation and the vacation is Barton Fink has two primary points of origin. One, they wanted to work with John Turturro who is in Miller's Crossing. But obviously they haven't made that yet. But he's a guy on their way. But they know him. He's obviously someone up and coming. He's worked with Spike Lee and stuff. But they also love this idea of the hotel. Before Hollywood, they have the hotel. like our setting is a neglected hotel blood simple right they said they saw a hotel that was the worst hotel they'd ever seen in Austin and they were kind of like it's like motel hell what if you could never leave they also had worked with John Goodman on Raising Arizona more like John Greatman very very true more like John the Bestman and come on we have made a really 10 comedy points you're allowed and they certainly write this role for him as well.

1:16:06David Sims:The most fascinating thing, I mean, it speaks to the other day we were singing the praises of John Goodman. Things have gone well in Blank Check scheduling in 2025 and that we have a lot of Goodman to discuss. We discussed it before. That we had our live show and now we have a lot of Goodman in the Cohen series. And you were talking about how he is an actual undersung genius in his execution of characters. Oh God, I feel like I talked about this on the podcast before, but like that moment in the Flintstones trailer where his foot is torn. Oh, sure. It's so upsetting. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry, I just had to talk about that for a second.

1:16:46Griffin Newman:He's a genius. Always. I'm trying to think of a Goodman's we've discussed before. Obviously, we've done Raising Arizona. At this point, Flight. Princess and the Frog. Sure. Sure. I mean, we must acknowledge. Speed Racer, of course. Speed Racer. He is Pops Racer. And he's wonderful in that. Is that it? Possibly. And we're about to double that if that's the whole thing. We're going to obviously do a bunch more, but is there, because he's been in so many movies.

1:17:10David Sims:There has to be something else I'm forgetting.

1:17:12Griffin Newman:It does there? Have to? Feels like it. Not sure that there is.

1:17:19David Sims:No, no. At this point, they have worked with him and he has now been on Roseanne, right? And he is starting to be accepted as one of America's most lovable people. Right. Who can't love John Goodman.

1:17:29Griffin Newman:They like that, but then they like... uh, his more menacing side.

1:17:34David Sims:What I love is that they were like, Oh, you know, it'd be fun is to weaponize that and use how much the public is just naturally endeared to John Goodman and pull the rug out from under them. And they said the second they started filming, they were like, this guy is so proficient and nuanced and thorough in his work that he's finding ways to color in the menace, even in the earliest scenes that we thought of this as a very like one to one comes later. He starts out sweet and adorable, and then it's a surprise this guy turns out evil. But instead, he's playing this weird balance of unease and pity and arrogance and scariness and pathetic.

1:18:14David Sims:And Turturro, in the same way, was like, guys, I like the way you wrote this character. I understand you've made him sort of an annoying pill. Will you trust me to try to put a little more humanity into him? I would like to try to put a little more realistic feeling into this guy so he's not just kind of a setup for a punchline. And he says that they gave him a degree of ownership of letting him deepen it, not by changing the text, but changing the characterization a little bit.

1:18:42Griffin Newman:Yeah. Wrote the script in three weeks, as they say. They tend to work quickly. So the film was ready. The script was ready and so then when they go back to Miller's Crossing and then make Miller's Crossing, when it's like, okay, what do you want to do next? They were like, here's Barton Fink. It's ready, it's done, whatever we want to do. Same financiers and everything. They decide to set it in Hollywood's golden age, but obviously, as you pointed out, they are not basing this on their own experiences, which had largely been pleasant. Their movies are produced by Circle Films, this indie company, their first few movies, which is basically, they'll be like, hey, here's this weird script, and Circle Films will be like, great, we can give you this budget, and they'll be like, great, well, we'll use that to make the movie.

1:19:19David Sims:And their trajectory up until this point was just boop. It just was straight up. These guys are, with each film, proving that they're the real deal. I think you're kind of right that my framing was a little glib in that it really is Miller's Crossing and Barton Fink coming out within a year of each other that is like a combined guarantor. After, I think, people thinking that Raising Arizona was a little silly and being like, okay, so these guys are really good stylists, but do they have anything to say? Is this all like genre riff, Lark stuff? And then Miller's Crossing and Barton were seen as like, oh, these guys have thoughts.

1:19:51But also, yeah. And since when did that mean that you get to make a big movie? That's what's crazy.

1:19:57David Sims:That's the thing that doesn't happen anymore is two movies that are so good that even though they weren't hits, the industry is like, fuck, I guess we got to see what these guys did with a bigger budget.

1:20:08Griffin Newman:So the 1941 setting is most important to them. They want it to be right as the war is about to begin. So then that informs the Hollywood thing, if that makes sense. they wanted this kind of the verge of madness and this idea of during that time when like suddenly this the country empties out of normal people like in terms of like sort of fit you know like 30 20 to 30 men like now it's like the country has a strange emptiness to it uh classically as the cohen's always say like ah we didn't do any research or anything like that they always say stuff like that and like when they're adapting a book they're like yeah we read the book and you're just sort of like i just don't know whether or not i should take them seriously you know it's

1:20:51David Sims:the other part of it too that jj dug up is that they were like no we didn't really do any research for it we had over the previous 10 years read these 20 books yes that's the thing i guess they

1:21:00Griffin Newman:have books in their bloodstream already there's a book called um city of nets which is about germany expatriates in la in the 40s they have the book called faulkner in hollywood that's about william faulkner's uh experience uh working as a screenwriter where he never uh drank to access

1:21:17David Sims:I feel like they are just constantly Digesting things and retaining it And it feels like anytime they develop a new project They're like oh yeah we have this filed away In our brain all this accidental Research we were doing

1:21:28Griffin Newman:And then yes there's this very superficial Sort of resemblance to Clifford Odette Who is one of the great like playwrights Of the sort of red 30s You know like you know this great Left wing playwright who then goes to Hollywood And is not like Barton Fink In that he has success and also drinks himself Like crazy but the character's look is modeled on George S. Kaufman from the Marx Brothers movies and stuff who looked like that

1:21:54David Sims:people were like oh they're taking Odette's and exaggerating it and they're like no we're just like doing Kaufman directly and they

1:22:02Griffin Newman:you know they're like Barton's a shit but we do love our characters which I think is just generally always true of the Coens like they love their characters even when their characters are unseathetic or annoying

1:22:13David Sims:I think now like And going back to your earlier point, I think they've basically been accepted as undeniable now. It is funny to read the criticism of the first 15 years of their work, where so many critics were kind of folding their arms and being like, not so fast. This sort of like, we shouldn't be so quick to like anoint a potential false god and treating these guys as serious filmmakers. And there were a couple different like strikes that would be thrown against them. And one of them was they're so condescending. you see this repeated they just have such contempt for all their characters their movies are just mocking all these people all the time isn't this exhausting it can seem glib and condescending but I actually I do think they love their character I agree I think they take great pleasure in them yes I think that's always been a misread

1:23:02Griffin Newman:on their work it's the same thing with Mike Lee it's the same thing people really struggle with people who write and create direct quite unsympathetic characters but they're often sort of misreading it for they're making fun or they're you know whatever casting it they also love

1:23:14David Sims:making movies about idiots, but I think their magic is that they dramatize idiots with compassion. Absolutely. While also understand what's fun about having a stupid character driving your story.

1:23:26Griffin Newman:Now, Blood Simple's, JJ's pointing this out and he's right. Like, Blood Simple is a neo-noir film. Yes. Very obvious. Raising Arizona is a cartoon comedy film. Right. Like, it's a little more outside of genre in terms of like, you're like, wow, I haven't seen something like this in a while, but it's a cartoon movie, right? It's Chuck Jones' chase picture, basically. Miller's Crossing is a gangster movie with all the sort of fucking trappings and fittings and all that. Barton Fink, I do not know how you describe this movie to anybody. It's not really a horror movie, but it's got sort of a horror stuff to it.

1:23:59Griffin Newman:It's not really a comedy. It's like a very black sort of strange comedy.

1:24:04David Sims:They always said their single biggest inspiration was the Polanski, one person going crazy movie.

1:24:09Griffin Newman:Like cul-de-sac and repulsion.

1:24:11David Sims:Beyond the sort of haunted hotel thing you were talking about. There are a few things I am more just kind of innately in the bag for than person in some sort of weird state of isolation slowly losing their mind. It is a thing I relate to way too hard and it just almost always works for me as a set of pro film.

1:24:28Griffin Newman:And then so people raise their hands and are like, the movie reminds me of Kafka, right? Very, very obviously. And they're like, huh. I mean, I guess we read Kafka in college, but like weren't thinking about him.

1:24:37David Sims:It doesn't just feel like they're sponges and they retain everything. They have a fucking library in their brains. I also love that they, whenever they talk about books they've read, it sounds like they're reading in tandem. They always talk about like, you know, we were just reading No Country. And then at some point went like, maybe this would make a good movie. And I'm like, so how's this breaking down? Are the two of you? They sit together. They both go to the library together. Just sleeping in a bed. Holding hands. Right. Are you holding the same book?

1:25:02Griffin Newman:Do you have parallel books? Are you like Bert and Ernie? They get their own books. Brothers get their own copies. Obviously John Mahoney is cast Because he looks so much like William Faulkner It's crazy They don't have to do much to make him look like Faulkner Faulkner was someone who occasionally enjoyed a drink I cannot deny this He had more success in Hollywood

1:25:24David Sims:He was not self Probably not

1:25:27Griffin Newman:But they're just adjusting the dials obviously

1:25:29David Sims:Mahoney is one of the great secret Brits Unbelievable in this way But no one knows he's fucking British Because he trained the accent out of him

1:25:37Griffin Newman:Yes right He's kind of fake British, right? Because he was British, but then he came to America as an 18-year-old because his mother, I think, was a war bride. And that was enough to kind of move him off.

1:25:49David Sims:And of course, we've lost him, but he would always say, I trained it on my system, and yet when I hear myself perform, I still feel like I hear the inflections and drives me crazy.

1:26:00Griffin Newman:Michael Lerner, to me, obviously looks like Louis V. Mayer. Sure. But it's kind of based on, I feel like, a lot of Jack Warner, like a lot of those

1:26:07David Sims:and had already played both Jack Warner and Louis B. Mayer in other projects he played Jack Warner and Harry Cohn

1:26:13Griffin Newman:two different studio guys in TV movies I mean he's a mashup he is but I mean Michael Lerner is just he's outrageously good in this movie he gets its only Oscar nomination which is only acting nomination which is kind of crazy not that he's bad but it's just crazy that that was the one that snuck in

1:26:30David Sims:also if you look at the precursors that year it felt a little

1:26:33Griffin Newman:out of left field he gets Lafka only right Like that was the one, like the Los Angeles critics gave him Best Supporting Actor

1:26:38David Sims:and that was it. The spread is really weird because like Goodman gets a supporting Globe nomination. It gets no other nominations from the Globes. Right. I think it does get a Writers Guild nomination. I can look. This is interesting that, you know, that the Oscar, because I was talking earlier about Mommy Dearest, right? And how that movie which savaged, you know, Hollywood legend and Hollywood in general turned its back on Faye Dunaway, you know. Right, right. It was, it was, how dare you make this? and then had to be reclaimed decades later. But in this case... Moneteers is...

1:27:10Griffin Newman:No offense. Bad.

1:27:12David Sims:It's not a good movie.

1:27:13Griffin Newman:It's very watchable and insane. Incredibly watchable. But it's not like you're like, ah, a gem. You're like, wow, I can't... No, it's me. You're right.

1:27:19David Sims:Not only do people hate it, but they were sort of like, Faye Dunaway, how dare you attack your own? You are toxic, right. But with Barton Fink, the guy who plays the monster, maybe because he's a fun character as well, or maybe it's like saying, well, we better own this. I'm trying to think of what the Oscar voter Is thinking in that point They're not saying like you son of a bitch How could you despoil the memory

1:27:42Griffin Newman:It is funny that they're like Yeah yeah great job playing an evil studio But he is also just a guy Learner Where they're probably also just kind of like You know what you're never bad And like every scene you're in in that movie is funny And his final scene is hysterical Where he's in the fake military outfit

1:28:00David Sims:Sure but in terms of like Goodman being a rising star and like America's favorite and whatever. It seems like an obvious Oscar play. And yet I think it speaks to people not totally, I think, let me say this. It speaks to maybe the most successful people in Hollywood, i.e. the people who are members of the Academy, especially at this point in time where it's a more selective group, being less receptive to this movie. You know, he made one other movie that year in 1991.

1:28:27Griffin Newman:Goodman? Yeah. You know what it was? King Ralph. King Ralph. King Ralph. Hell yeah. So was King Ralph his Norvish? We were thinking of giving you an Oscar number. That King Ralph movie. No, I don't.

1:28:38David Sims:I think they. Maybe it split the vote, you know? That's why. I think this movie, even if they didn't find it offensive, probably made successful Hollywood people a little uncomfortable. Yeah, I would say I think Goodman didn't get a nomination because he's creepy and scary. And I think Michael Lerner is like not to be reductive, but there's also just an aspect of like it's a skill piece performance. He's got three monologues where he talks nonstop for eight minutes. I mean, it's. you watch it and you're like undeniably what this guy just did is like complicated and difficult to achieve on a technical level and the Coens are so deliberate in their coverage that you're watching him do it with minimal cuts I think it was just kind of like well yeah obviously look at that guy he's acting

1:29:19Griffin Newman:film cost 10 million dollars to make was shot for 45 days and they filmed it at a hotel Dennis Gassner you know the great Dennis Gassner I love Dennis Gassner have you worked with Dennis Gassner? I've worked with Dennis Gassner on The Golden Compass. He was nominated for the Oscar for that. He's obviously an A-tier production designer.

1:29:42David Sims:Disgot, art direction, and costume, right?

1:29:44Griffin Newman:Yes.

1:29:45David Sims:He's a member of my camp at Burning Man, I have to say. Shout out to Astram Galactica. Is he really? He is. I invited him to join my camp at Burning Man. Go on. Sorry. Sorry. Oh, no. Please. Shout out. And his camp is all like peeling wallpaper.

1:29:58Griffin Newman:A little bit. Mosquitoes. So they're right. They find this weird Art Deco place that's falling apart. They use a lot of green and yellow, as we sort of mentioned in the color of the movie, to suggest putrefaction. You know, like just kind of like everything. Not to be hyperbolic,

1:30:16David Sims:but it is just one of the most viscerally rendered and realized locations in the history of movies.

1:30:23Griffin Newman:It is incredible. Obviously, Barry Sonnenfeld has heard the snap snap of the Addams Family.

1:30:29David Sims:His fingers are running very quickly along the floor attached to nothing but the rest of a hand.

1:30:34Griffin Newman:So they lose their iconic director of photography and they turn to Roger Deakins, who obviously then works for them for, you know, 30 years, basically. Yeah. Who I don't think at that point was much of a major name. Had done, Sid and Nancy was the biggest crossover. Right. I mean, another not so secret Brit. and yeah I mean like his biggest credit before then is right either Sid and Nancy or if you want like a bigger budget thing like Air America but like not that was kind of his only studio right like and they liked his work on a movie called Stormy Monday obviously they'd also seen Sid and Nancy Stormy Monday yes I actually saw that movie in the theaters do you remember how it looked it looked fantastic I actually I love that that that Roger Dickinson shot Air America because in every great cinematographer's resume, there are movies where you're like, what?

1:31:25Right. You know, it's like, what's the Vanilla Ice movie that was shot by Janusz Kaminski or something like that? Yes, Cool as Ice. What's also just,

1:31:33David Sims:because basically from Barton Fink on, there is no movie you would be surprised to hear was shot by Roger Deakins, right? Like Air America is maybe the last time where you're like, huh.

1:31:43Griffin Newman:Yeah, right. No, I have a movie on that.

1:31:44David Sims:Every movie on from that point, he is an authorial voice in the film.

1:31:49Griffin Newman:yeah i'm like you know what he shot the siege that's surprising for me to learn edswick's the siege yeah he did a lot of edswick movies though he did courage under fire um yeah i don't know man mostly mostly it becomes like yeah he shoots you know the kind of movies

1:32:06David Sims:you think he'd shoot yeah um the shot of the the dream stuck in the mendus verse

1:32:11Griffin Newman:it gets out of there the only shot he had trouble with uh was the plug hole shot that you reference. Sure. Yes. Which Joel and Ethan say he made fun of them for and then every time. Still makes fun to this day. Exactly. They're like, okay, so here's something we want to do with this weird shot. He's like, as long as you're not making me track down a plug hole. For three decades it better not be a plug hole shot. I feel like the boys were a little on the nail there. Going down the drain. It's early in their career you still want to try stuff.

1:32:38David Sims:It's just like the grossest version of that joke.

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1:34:42Griffin Newman:so let's talk about the plot of Barton Fink it's 1941 we begin with Barton having great success on the Broadway say or off whatever like it's Broadway standing at the wings making a picture for yes you know I'm sorry a play for the people

1:34:56David Sims:he just looks so fucking weasel so satisfied he's like right the expression on his face which he maintains for the entire movie is the most unflattering, kind of gormless. You know, this pathetic, like, focus,

1:35:11Griffin Newman:this pathetic concentration. There are few guys who would have that, like, sort of, you know, whatever risk. Like, you know, John Turturro is so happy to play that. Miller's Crossing is like that. Quiz Show is like that. Where in Quiz Show, most actors would be like, I want to make him a little more, like, sort of straightforwardly likable. Turturro is like, no, no, no, I can do this. Like, I could be the most

1:35:31David Sims:annoying guy in the world. Quiz Show is a movie where the premise is a real true life story that a network is just like he's so fucking annoying this guy's so annoying we have to figure out a way to get him off this fucking show the entire scandal is a byproduct of like people hate watching this guy on tv so funny he's so so good in this movie he's so good at yeah that's kind of like gormless shit but you're just right it's amazing how much he conveys wordlessly in these first couple of shots of just like this guy's sort of like self-obsession with his own work his sort of like absolute on edge none of this actually makes him happy even when it's going well that's right he he doesn't do the thing where you see him subtly mouthing the lines right which you almost have a screen memory he does he does do at the start of Yeah.

1:36:21He's doing it very faintly. When it goes fresh fish? Yes.

1:36:25David Sims:Right. But he's doing it in a way where it feels like he's on edge, worried they're about to fuck it up. Right. You know? Like, I've seen directors do it where it's really charming because it feels like they're living their movie. They care so much. Right. It's so deeply in them. They're not even aware they're doing that. And he's doing this, like, in this very clenched way. Yeah.

1:36:47Griffin Newman:Yeah. Yeah. And so pretty much right away, we're at Capital Pictures, right? Like it's like he does the play and then he's meeting with Michael Lerner. And there's the great Michael Lerner scene.

1:36:58David Sims:He's being wined and dined by these like rich patrons of the arts who he's immediately like, you don't get it. I'm like trying to do a service for the people, the people's theater. It's a movement. Like this guy just can't even accept a fucking compliment. He's a prick. He gets talked into it. Yeah, he gets talked into this contract by his agent. I presume it's this agent.

1:37:18Griffin Newman:Yeah. Yeah. Obviously, it's so much more money, I guess, was what lured everyone west, right? It's like you're not going to actually make any money writing plays on Broadway, even if they're sort of well-received.

1:37:30David Sims:No. And it was like for the first time, right, the Hollywood machine has been built up properly. The sound picture is an established thing. People want language in their movies. Right. The transition actually. of this era of like if you are successful if you are a respected novelist or playwright that's nice and all but what you really do is you leverage that to go out to Hollywood to make some money to keep doing your own shit.

1:37:53Griffin Newman:Right, exactly. You have the money to keep doing your own shit. Right. The actual dissolve is or fade you know, is to the beach the rock the waves up against the rock and then to the hotel. This recurring motif of the beach of like what does it mean? You guys can you know, to throw your theories in that's that's another very lynch thing about this movie to me or maybe from purgatory yes go ahead maybe it's the other way around because it does seem like that's a very lynchy shot right yes yeah sure um and like it feels like it's sorry to interrupt it's like it's in conversation with lynch in some way um who is who is first a certain kind of uh textures and feels because the hotel is very very lynchian i think yes i mean anything with chet a tiny role for steve buscemi where he's the bellhop i love that like there is a wall of keys behind him like it's like fucking you know 10 stories high with so many keys in it where you're like are there other you never see anyone else there except for goodman right like and that's my favorite thing about any haunted hotel like the implications like yeah there's other people here you just don't see them but there's shoes outside so it's showing that there are people but you

1:39:04David Sims:never see correct which is a really smart choice on their part which is like a really clean visual language to let you know these other rooms are occupied. Oh, by the way,$2 ,000. You're hearing the voices, you're seeing the shoes. You're not ever seeing anyone else's face. $2 ,000 in 1941 is the equivalent of$41 ,510. So that's per week. Yeah. That's per week. So he's getting paid shit tons. Can we unpack this for a second? That is bananas. Yeah.

1:39:29Griffin Newman:And it's like, but what's the implication that he'll be doing this for a month, for a year?

1:39:34David Sims:I want to unpack this because I feel like this goes into a point you started to set up a little while ago, right? the uniqueness of America not having any investment in funding its own arts, right? Like an investment in cultural enrichment. I was talking to a friend of the podcast, Sam Clements, who works for the Picturehouse chain in the UK. And we were talking about the difference in financing and funding and films and how things feel weird in the UK. And the things like the film lottery have started getting gutted and it's harder to get the things made. And I was like, I think when I talked to my friends working in the American film industry, we're so envious of there being any program like that.

1:40:14David Sims:And he was like, isn't the Sundance Lab kind of like that? And I'm like, the Sundance Lab is that having to be created. Right. It's like a prize you win. Right. As like being created by not a government, but a successful artist being like this kind of thing should exist, leveraging his entire career to make that. It's like charities filling the gap. And then even then I was like, here's what it is. It's like you submit, you get accepted, you get this beautiful sort of like sojourn, staying with other artists, working with them, having actors at your disposal to workshop the scenes, getting all these mentors.

1:40:49David Sims:And then you do a presentation. And at the end of it, they're like, well, we hope that one of the people who saw this presentation wants to give you money to make this movie. They do not help you make the film. and then the hope is if you find money for it you maybe stand a better chance of getting into the sundance festival which would maybe then lead to distribution but all of it is still like you're having to piece it together so thoroughly right and in this country we just decided that we don't give a shit about this but the way the movie industry used to be run the studio system which was dissolved for a number of reasons and it was seen as a bit of a victory that now the power has gone back to the artists they control their own careers i think long term i've been thinking about this a lot i think was maybe a fatal mistake that has fucked the industry forever in terms of eradicating the middle class artist yeah well wait a second i don't know i feel about any of that but okay i mean the studio system was largely eradicated because the biggest stars didn't like the lack of freedom and the biggest directors the biggest writers the people who had some level of clout didn't have a time.

1:41:54Griffin Newman:But there was not much auteurism or anything, really.

1:41:57David Sims:That's the point. The studio directed all art. And they controlled the theaters. They did not feel like they had agency. They didn't have agency. They literally didn't. Correct, correct, correct.

1:42:07Griffin Newman:It's not a feeling thing. No, correct. They were bound to do what the studio told them to do.

1:42:12David Sims:But there was a model that sort of made sense.

1:42:14Griffin Newman:Let me unpack this. We're moving on. We're not moving on.

1:42:18David Sims:This is a Barton Fink episode. There was steady employment. But I don't think Barton Fink I guess the movie about how the studio system was good. No, let me unpack this. You have to let me finish my point. You can't cut me off and then say you're wrong. Okay, finish your point. Finish your point. There was this holistic system of like, we own the real estate. We own the machinery. We own the equipment, right? It's called a monopoly, but yes, go on. Yes. You went to eat with all the other writers and directors. There was a sense of humor. The mess hall. That kind of thing is kind of cool. But it was also like, there's sort of controlled costs because we own the means of production, right?

1:42:54David Sims:We own you. We control you. You're under our salary, right? I mean, this is a little bit what Hail Caesar's about. It's a lot what Hail Caesar's about. We'll get there.

1:43:01Griffin Newman:There's certainly much to discuss about this in Hail Caesar, which is more about the machinery of the studio system.

1:43:05David Sims:And if you're a star or director who's like proving yourself and you're like, why am I still like subject to the whims of these people owning me? You start to want to destroy this system. What ended up happening long-term is basically everything collapsed And now it's like Warner Brothers loans out their sound stages to other production companies, which like becomes both a form of money laundering and a way of intensifying costs across everything. Same to their post-production facilities, all these things. But also no one in this industry has any fucking job security anymore. Right. That's true.

1:43:36David Sims:There used to be this impetus on the studios in exchange for them owning you, which was basically they'd go to someone like a Barton Fink and say, we're going to pay you$2 ,000. $40 ,000 a week. And we have a reason to keep throwing work at you because we're paying for you. Preston Sturgis was the highest salaried individual in America when he was at his height. And actually, he did have a certain degree of control because once you were compelling as a figure in and of itself.

1:44:01Griffin Newman:Right, but he's one of the only ones who... He figured out how to make himself a little more of a celebrity. He's one of the earliest writer-directors. And obviously, most of these guys did not even get written credit. Right. Like, their names are not on the movies.

1:44:13David Sims:There'd be fucking drama school showcases

1:44:15Griffin Newman:and a guy would get up and do a monologue. The whole point of Mank, the great film Mank, is Mankiewicz being like, I think I actually want credit on this movie. I think it's good. And Wells being like, that's not how this fucking works, ever. I am, you know, and like, and Mank's like, I want it. Sorry, like, please, for the first time ever, I'll actually make that fight.

1:44:32David Sims:You'd have like a drama school showcase and someone would do a good monologue and Paramount would be like, fuck, why don't we get that guy under contract? And now the impetus is on them to figure out how to make this guy's career work. We're going to put him in 10 movies. Because we're paying for him. And so we just need to throw him at the wall and see what fits. But then they could just cut you loose. They could. Look. And you had nothing to point to. It was not a perfect system. No, it was a horrible system. What are you talking about? No, we're not.

1:44:57Griffin Newman:Yes, we are. The problem.

1:44:58David Sims:I remind you, you don't work in this system. Griffin, Griffin, Griffin, we are not.

1:45:02Griffin Newman:No, we are. People should be able to have agency in their careers.

1:45:06David Sims:What happens now is that people don't work. Griffin. I would say the big problem is that it is really fucking expensive. is the most expensive art form in the world. And this is like, oh, Christ, what? You know, it is so hard.

1:45:16Griffin Newman:The problem is that there are less studios. There used to be, like, there were the majors, the mid-majors, and then there was, you know, what do you call it, Poverty Row and all that. There was so much competition. Movies were desired by the public. Yes. The reason there are less jobs now is movies are not desired by the public anymore. Now, we can argue, like, oh, no, they are, and see how these movies do well. But it's like, no, they release most movies. People go to the theaters less. There's way more competition. for thing that you watch. Back then, there was nothing else you could watch. People lined the streets to go see movies.

1:45:48Griffin Newman:They would sit in movie theaters all day watching, you know, some good movies and a lot of garbage because it was like, what else are you going to do?

1:45:55David Sims:Well, they also gutted their own business model in a way that reduced the value of any single project into a product that was part of a library to boast or...

1:46:03Griffin Newman:They did that, but it's also television got invented and video games got invented and phones got invented. There's just a zillion other things competing for attention.

1:46:10David Sims:of fewer people controlling a greater majority of jobs that has to do with a lot of removal of stigma of what is beneath you or above you. And just certain people grinding so fucking hard and like just being like, I'll just do everything. When people have a hot streak, they just like run the fucking table and block other people out. I also... But there's less demand. But I think to this other point, it's like it is so expensive to do this work. in any sort of way, especially the work to prove that you're worthy of being paid to do this work. It is a pay-to-play industry, which is why... There's another reason it's more expensive.

1:46:50Griffin Newman:People are paid fairly because of unions that were created after this. But now the studios are doing anything they can to circumvent unions. But back then there were no unions. Of course. People were treated like garbage and were paid poorly. No, but I'm just saying as compared to poetry or paintings. You get some paint, you know, some ink and paper. The capital is very different. Yeah, it is really fucking hard to do.

1:47:12David Sims:In exchange for signing over your freedom to a studio, the other thing they would do was fucking invest in your career and be like, we need to spend the money to control your publicity and your fashion, your style, and all this sort of stuff. Increasingly, when you read like fucking Sidney Sweeney complaining that she can't pay her mortgage, and people are like, how is that possible? You're like, in order to be Sidney Sweeney, you have to pay like 40 people out of pocket to do the things that the productions used to do for you. right and that's to maintain that where did Sidney Sweeney say that

1:47:43Griffin Newman:she said that like two years ago well I googled Sidney Sweeney mortgage she recently what is her mortgage hey so Sidney Sweeney's doing alright now that's good that's nice she didn't escape it but she has more things going on

1:47:59David Sims:but it is another thing that is depicted in Mank when he or when his nephew arrives and you got this bullpen of like 40 writers who sit around all day and are just waiting for basically like the lottery ticket to come and be like, you got to sign something, do a pass on this. Do a treatment on this, you know?

1:48:16Griffin Newman:But Mank is also about a man in that system who realizes that system is poison that is destroying America. That he works for capitalist pigs who will, you know, make art that prevents people from having political thoughts. I think we replaced... I mean, Mank is not a movie that's like, you know what? Hollywood is working. You know, like that's a movie about a guy that ends with him barfing on the floor.

1:48:40David Sims:I think we replaced one broken system with a different broken system. And the system right now functions less.

1:48:46Griffin Newman:What you are talking about is late capitalism, which is what we live in. And it is true of most industries now. The industry I work into, media, where it's like people come to me and they're like, how do I? Yes. Climb this ladder. What's the path? And I'm like, there isn't one. Like, I mean, you can do X and Y and you can hope for the best.

1:49:06David Sims:But luck is like more than ever a humongous. It's who you know.

1:49:10Griffin Newman:And it's that maybe it's, you know, oh, something opens up right when you're lucky or maybe the, you know, sort of some stupid guy. Yeah. And this is true movies, too. It's like, eh, I like devote a bunch of money to something. And then after a while, he's like, eh, well, that money's gone and didn't work. So I give up. Like, yes, you know, you'll have little booms like that, which is sort of what like the tech companies are right now. Which are good. But I also. Yeah, but it's sort of Apple being like, oh, let's do it. And it's like, it doesn't hurt them to do it, but there may come a day where they're like, yeah, we're going to do it now.

1:49:39Griffin Newman:When they lose interest, it's a fucking nightmare. Right.

1:49:41David Sims:But it goes back to - That will never happen. No, of course not. Right. Of course not. Cinema being an emerging art form, right? Yes. That America is able to sort of corner right at the beginning and decide this is how these things are made. But from the get-go, we're deciding this is capitalist structure. This is machinery. In America. In America. That's what I'm saying. Do you suppose that there will be a patriotic film fund, right? Right. Because it was announced that when he was in Mel Gibson and Kevin Sorbo and something were going to be ambassadors. But I don't think the government wants to do that.

1:50:14David Sims:They like the idea of like people being able to set up something like Angel Studios and make money off of doing it.

1:50:20Griffin Newman:I think the only time America's ever been really interested in that is like FDR. Right. Right. Obviously, every other country does it, but that's because forever or many other countries. but then it's also sort of like we are producing something that speaks to our country that makes it interesting for people around the world yeah like and america doesn't need to do that because

1:50:40David Sims:you know the american brand is is loud but also a depressing majority of our population would have absolute iron disgust at the idea of their tax going to art which of course happens in britain

1:50:54Griffin Newman:where they're like i can't believe my tax dollars paid for that crappy movie right people come on man swing in i kind of want to see the patriotic movie like just like could it be called the patriotic movie sure like tp another patriotic movie i'm gonna say that'd be the sequel i'm in

1:51:11David Sims:favor of seeing it as long as trump writes and directs it himself well that's what i'm saying because i love the idea so busy let's have him write him he doesn't need to direct i i think it'd be good if we got him out of the office for a little bit got him on a set got him really hyper fixated on a project. But I love the idea. I mean, we are in a

1:51:28Griffin Newman:culture war, so it would be a wartime movie. Apparently we're being invaded. First there was the war on terrorism and now there's the war on culture or whatever. It's like all the people you just listed off who would be involved, like everyone potentially who would sign up for that kind of project. It would be terrible. Brains better than ever. Cognitive function. Top. And it would be exciting to then see that get released and then just have all the people who champion the film, the project, the ideas of the film, then just be like, oh, this sucks. Yeah. Oh, it's not good. Or try to like maneuver around.

1:52:07Griffin Newman:But I feel like -

1:52:08David Sims:Actually, it's good if you really think about it. I feel like every time - I didn't like it the first five times, but now I think I get it.

1:52:14Griffin Newman:One of those movies gets made, like the Christmas, what was it called? War on Christmas, Kirk Cameron saving Christmas.

1:52:19David Sims:Oh, yeah.

1:52:20Griffin Newman:The one where it's like Michael Moore has a Christmas carol happen. an American Carol it's sort of like and it comes out and everyone's like this is bad and it's just like well let's never speak of this again right like it's not like one of those things where people do try to be like no I'm gonna watch it I liked it like you know it's just kind of like well this is the fallacy every time right but people actually want to see sinners like everyone wants to see it you know what I mean right and not because of politics or any other reason they're just like I don't know I heard it was good

1:52:46David Sims:yeah I mean go see it right there's so much of the media landscape has been dominated by this idea of like DEI initiatives are being rolled back and like the identity politics era of Hollywood is over and things are now going to go back towards like catering towards the conservative, you know, jay-credition audience. And then you look at the box office and you're like three of the top six movies of the year so far have predominantly black casts.

1:53:12Griffin Newman:I mean.

1:53:14David Sims:Like exponentially more successful than the movies that in theory are targeting Trump's America.

1:53:20Griffin Newman:You can make a Korean animated movie about Jesus that's told by an animated Charles Dickens.

1:53:26David Sims:Do you know there's another animated Jesus movie coming out this year? Yeah, I made it. Okay.

1:53:30Griffin Newman:It's called Another Animated Jesus Movie. No, you can do that, and that might hit because people are like, well, the nativity story is a pretty big one. And if you release it Easter weekend,

1:53:42David Sims:it's kind of a gimmick.

1:53:42Griffin Newman:But sometimes then there are those more sort of like niche faith movies where they're like, you know, it's about the triumph of the human spirit, and people are kind of like, pass. Yeah. Like, whatever. Let me know when the thunderbolts are.

1:53:52David Sims:down cgi jesus movie is just barely a movie sure but barely passing one of them days a movie no it's not remains under discussed good movie yes what is it was a comedy written by john singleton's daughter soraya singleton it's a really really good movie and it's just the kind

1:54:11Griffin Newman:of movie they used to make more of which is a smaller budget but studio comedy that's very

1:54:16David Sims:you know kind of lo-fi and funny and good to your point david my point this is an era where the machinery of hollywood is working so beautifully in the public cannot get enough movies it's all they got and the idea of what are they gonna do this on the wireless right we we can afford to just have a room full of drunk writers yeah who are just each pitching in a sentence or two and they present it to him as just like this isn't fucking rocket science this is one of the two wrestling movies we have to make every year. They assign him a picture. It's worth remarking on. Do you want a dame or a kid?

1:54:51David Sims:There's a formula here, and you decide the binary choose-your-own-adventure path. My screenwriter mind said, is it about a dame? Is there a dame or is it a kid? And my mind went, both? And then Barton Fink goes, both? And they look appalled at the end.

1:55:06Griffin Newman:Right. You need a movie to fit a certain formula because people are like, yeah, I want to go see a movie about this. This will actually work. Right. And you want, it's beyond elevator pitch. It's just, right. It's a wrestling picture. Great. I love wrestling pictures. I like to watch wrestling on the big screen.

1:55:24David Sims:And the thing you get so much from Lerner's performance, what I think he captures really well is you're just like, this guy is overselling it so hard. Yeah, he's laying on the mustard. He's laying it on way too thick of how much he respects artists, right? Right. In a way, you know, it's bullshit. Reuters first. And you're just waiting for the shoe to drop. And in reality, what he really wants is like how a lot of our biggest budget franchise movies work right now, which is like we're going to hire someone with a little personality so they can just hopefully put 2 % personality on our formula.

1:55:55David Sims:But by and large, let's just stick to the formula.

1:55:58Griffin Newman:But it's also the implication I have from Barton Fink is he gets to do this. You're going to be treated well, put up in a hotel, paid a lot of money. Then he produces the first script. We don't see the rest of the movie, but the reaction to the first script is like, no, this is not what we want. This is way too arty farty. You need to learn how to make movies the capital pictures way. And you get the sense that he will quickly be bumped down the ladder, right? Like it'll be a little more like, you need to go with the pigs, you know, in the slop and like learn your trade. Well, it's even like you will never be, you're never going to work on anything again.

1:56:33We just own you. You're going to keep on drawing a salary, but nothing that you produce. I mean, this is by the end of it, right? Yeah, nothing that you produce is ever going to be used.

1:56:42David Sims:Right, which the McHoney character is kind of stuck in that sort of hell.

1:56:44Griffin Newman:Which is why his every day is that he vomits, one assumes, black bile. And then it's like, okay, time to drink all day. That's how he's dealing with life.

1:56:55David Sims:And they pay him with contempt to keep ownership of him. And you get the sense that this guy probably for the last five years has had one good idea a year. Right. Like every year he gives them one dialogue exchange or one notion of how to fix a scene. Yeah. But yeah, they're being paid to keep their field fallow. Right. Right.

1:57:16Griffin Newman:Is basically the deal. I mean, he didn't, Faulkner didn't write all of his most famous novels had already happened. Sure. And famously he got to Hollywood and was like, can I write Mickey Mouse? I like Mickey Mouse. And MGM was like, that's Disney. And he was like, I don't understand. Great. he didn't really get that idea and instead he did you know a bunch of movies like he wrote like 50 movies or whatever credited or uncredited that no one remembers

1:57:44David Sims:here's what I want to say Just going back to the plot a little bit. Or not the plot, but the flow of the movie.

1:57:49Griffin Newman:He famously, Faulkner, just want to say that he has a credit on The Big Sleep, which is one of the most incomprehensible screenplays ever written.

1:57:55David Sims:Sure.

1:57:55Griffin Newman:Yes.

1:57:56David Sims:It's a great movie. But also it's constantly cited as like, this script doesn't even make sense in the movie's script. Right. And that's sort of when we start to think about the other theory and Bogey and Bacall and all that.

1:58:06Griffin Newman:But there's a little bit of like nobody knows anything. And I do not know what the answer to the mystery is. Yes.

1:58:13David Sims:No one knows.

1:58:14Griffin Newman:I think you can be told and even if you're told you're kind of like I don't understand don't worry about it yeah get it start it down

1:58:22David Sims:casting Buscemi having Buscemi play it as cheery as possible and not a fake cheeriness right he's not going over cranked but it's like speaks to the Coens already at this point being so smart about how to use actors and their energies of just like just have Buscemi go straight down the middle put no creep on it and that will be unsettling there's something about Buscemi just being kind of like quiet and kind that feels a little off and also just his introduction back to the shoes Ben his introduction is Barton Fink walks in this fucking lobby that's empty and then like a trap door opens from the floor it comes from out of the basement with shoes and you're just like what the fuck is going on underneath this hotel a thing that is never even touched on again like a mystery that is just sort of like quietly seated at the beginning and then so much else happens and you're like is there a whole world of drama going on underground the implication of the shoes outside the door is that these the residents or the transients are leaving their shoes out every night to be shined and polished and that he's going down there but you're like are there other people down there does buscemi spend every night shining a hundred pairs of shoes yeah it's very fair it's fairytale right logic and then he gets up to this room and immediately it's just unsettling he is so he's a schmuck because he's being paid forty thousand dollars a year yes i mean a week a week a week and he chooses to stay at a shitty hotel yes but you don't feel as though he's scrimping and saving in order to start he's not like making phone calls about how he's finally going to rent a theater back he doesn't know what to do with

1:59:58Griffin Newman:money it's not like barton thinks like i'm about to go on a shopping spree like barton thinks i I want to see him in Rodeo try. Would be fun. He gets turned away by the mean shop girls, and later he goes back and asks them if they sell on concession. Big mistake. Yeah.

2:00:13David Sims:Thank you. Huge. It feels like, A, this idea he has of, like, I need to be amongst the common people. Michael Lerner's offering with Polito, get him a fucking mansion, put him up at the nicer hotel, put him in my guest room. He won't allow any of that stuff to happen.

2:00:30Griffin Newman:John Polito, of course, we love to see him. It's a great jump. I mean, just the roly-poly-ous little man.

2:00:35David Sims:We'll have talked about him a lot last week.

2:00:36Griffin Newman:I mean, because Miller's Crossing is his, I think his biggest Coen's showcase, right? Like, obviously he made a lot of movies with them.

2:00:43David Sims:We haven't recorded that episode yet, but I promise we won't give him the hi-hat meta. But Polito has been kind of edged out of the Louis B. Merrill here, right? Because normally he'd be the guy who'd be playing the Louis B. Merrill part. So there's actually something really, there's like real pathos to the fact that he's meek in this one. It almost...

2:00:58Griffin Newman:The late John Polito, right?

2:00:59David Sims:Yeah, that's right. Yeah. It gives Lerner's character a little more power where you're like, if I've seen the first three Coen Brothers movies to see Polito be like nudged simping to this guy. Right. It's just like, how fucking hot can this guy run? But the other the other part of it with the the hotel thing beyond just whatever he thinks is like artistic philosophical principle is of needing to be in a real place with real people. it's also to my mind the recurring imagery of the beach is just like this guy wouldn't know

2:01:33Griffin Newman:how to fucking function on a beach well and he doesn't when he gets on a mansion he's in a fucking three pieces he's gonna be miserable so there's this idea of the martin pink action figure doesn't have other clothes right he's got the one thing the idea of looking at a picture of a

2:01:47David Sims:beautiful woman on the beach isn't like that's the escape that's the fantasy it's sort of like that's the idea of that being my idea of a fantasy that a well-adjusted person would look to an image like that as an idea of a serene thing to strive for. And for him, he would never be able to enjoy it.

2:02:04Griffin Newman:It's also a hilarious mocking thing to have on the wall of that dingy room where they're like, but for a little color, you know, we'll hang that one picture. And it's just such a, I mean, it's what the Coens are so good at in their entire career. The more you look at it, it's like saying a word a thousand times. The more you read strange things into that weird, cryptic anonymous image of the back of a woman on a beach well this and then it is like the fulfilled prophecy thing this is like the david lynchie thing again to return to whereas like if you want to try to read into this like what is the there it's not a time loop obviously you don't want to like read like too much into it but but but the the the girl at the end purposely adopts

2:02:43David Sims:the the pose exactly yeah it's right you're mirroring everything i mean it when i saw this movie for the first time uh i i guess well over 15 years ago um i i and and until re-watching last night had held on to my interpretation so strongly of oh he is in hell and john goodman's character is satan or he's in purgatory or whatever yes and yes i remember like feeling so strongly john goodman's character is the devil or some equivalent and watching it last night i did not feel that way at all. Not at all. It's what it is.

2:03:23Griffin Newman:In fact, I love this guy.

2:03:24David Sims:I don't think I was, yeah, this guy, maybe God?

2:03:26Griffin Newman:I think interpreting him as a sort of demonic figure is perfectly acceptable.

2:03:31David Sims:Sure, I wasn't like, what an idiot, what a misread I had. But it speaks to sort of the weird sphinx-like quality of this movie. That you can watch it one time and go, you know what, it's 100 % this. It's this and this, and this is how these other elements support it. The Coens do not make movies that way, I feel. they are misleads

2:03:49Griffin Newman:they're not like oh you missed the point they would be like yeah do what you want

2:03:52David Sims:but it's so much a reflection of what you're bringing to the movie as well Ben what do you want to say

2:03:59Griffin Newman:I wanted to share what changed for me is that the first time I watched this I was so aligned with him and his pretentious perspective

2:04:09David Sims:new school poetry yes

2:04:12Griffin Newman:I majored in creative writing at the new school Watching it this time around What really struck me is He's saying he's this Voice of the people And yet Is not actually comfortable Interacting or being in the space With these types of people He seems to hate people He cannot handle talking to anybody And then is incapable Of writing a piece of work That is for those people He's so above of writing the wrestling movie.

2:04:47David Sims:Right. And yet he's saying the whole time

2:04:49Griffin Newman:that he is like, you know, has the audience who would want to interact with that work in mind. It's so funny.

2:04:57David Sims:To write what he thinks the people need rather than what they want. A polemical kind of dick.

2:05:01Griffin Newman:This is the President Sturgis thing. This is like, this is Sullivan's Travels, right? It's the best moment in film history, but certainly in Sullivan's Travels. It's when they, right, when they interact with simple, quote unquote, art, and it moves them beyond anything you know and Preston Sergis is like

2:05:17David Sims:one of the single biggest influences throughout the entire Con Brothers filmography down to Oh Brother World without being the movie within the movie yeah but no

2:05:26Griffin Newman:but did you have more oh no that's all I wanted to shut up and get out of here hey hey come on a palate cleanser actually I want to tell because this is getting pretty heavy did I ever tell you my story about meeting Brad Pitt the first time Brad Pitt Bradley Pitt who you've never directed in a film Never directed in a film. Okay, so my girlfriend at the time... You didn't direct Sinbad Lich in the Seven Seas? I wish. Okay, carry on.

2:05:50David Sims:Seven Seas in that picture. My girlfriend at the time was cast as one of the neighbors in Mr. and Mrs. Smith. Okay, sure.

2:05:59Griffin Newman:A film with many a neighbor.

2:06:01David Sims:You are in that film as an actor. I'm in that film as an actor, and here's how that happened. The cast agent thought, oh, it would be funny if Chris, this is my girlfriend Heather at the time, who's going out with Heather, played her husband. And then she was like, I don't think I want to be playing second fiddle to the Angelina Jolie person. I'm out of here. She dropped out, right? And I was like... So who replaces her? I forget her name. Lovely, lovely actor. Oh, it's Rachel Huntley.

2:06:31Griffin Newman:What are you? Not a name I know. You still end up playing this next door neighbor character. I'm not leaving. I'm not leaving. I'm waiting for them to fire me. Brad Pitt as Angelina. Come on, man. Yeah. So then... This is the only movie that actor was ever in. Weird. Oh, really? Oh, wow. Yeah. It's only MTV credit. So there I am, right, on this set. And there's Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie. And I'm playing their neighbor, so I have a couple of scenes with Brad, which is pretty freaking funny. Man, I need to rewatch this movie because I didn't know. I haven't seen it since it came out. It's really funny.

2:07:03David Sims:It speaks to how much I have always been me, that I remember seeing that movie opening weekend and going, oh, weird, that's Chris Weitz. That is really... I immediately clocked Oh wow

2:07:13Griffin Newman:That's the writer and director Of About a Boy Well I would have known I did see Chuck and Buck Not to bring up All your actual credits Which you are a major role You're a titular character I was Okay alright So you're in A couple scenes with Braddy Pitt So I'm We're starting to see I was starting to shoot This scene with Brad And of course it's like It's fucking surreal Right And I want to make it clear to him That I'm not going to be Very good in this scene Because I'm not an actor I'm a director Temper your expectations, Brad. Yeah, so I go to Brad. You know, we were just shaking hands. And I said, look, I just want you to know I'm not actually an actor.

2:07:48I'm actually a director. And I can see him take it the wrong way. And the way that he is taking it is, oh, my God, this guy is some kind of freaking lunatic who wants to give me his script. Right, right, right.

2:08:01Griffin Newman:You're like, really what I want to do is direct. I am an established director with credits to my name. So, and I see his soul retreat into the back of his head. Like, it's clearly something that he has done before. Yeah. And I realize that I have, like, lost this moment with Brad Pitt completely. I am now just a lunatic to him. And then we do our scenes. He shakes my hand. And actually, I see him one more time. I see him one more time, which is the year that Damien Bashir is nominated for Best Actor for A Better Life. And he should have won. And he's like telling me what a great time he has. He's like, oh, I'm hanging out with George and Brad.

2:08:43Is that the Descendants Moneyball artist here?

2:08:46David Sims:That is, yeah.

2:08:47Griffin Newman:Both George and Brad were nominated for Best Actor of the Year. But of course we had to make room for Jean Dujardin. Yeah. Heath Plasier. His big leading man career since then has proven that he deserved it. But, and so he, so Damien, we're at the SAG Awards and Damien brings Brad by and like introduces us. And I see it, I see the penny drop, the flicker. Brad Pitt, he's like, oh, okay, okay. Six years later, he's like, oh, that guy wasn't full of shit. Yeah, no, to his credit, he was like, somehow remembering. He was like, oh, yes, we've worked before. And I was like, oh God, thank God.

2:09:24David Sims:What's so funny, too, is that your, like, function, Mr. and Mrs. Smith, is basically to be like, look how poorly these guys fit in with normal suburban couples. Right. And my memory is that you're sort of, like, talking at him trying to make, like, neighborhood small talk. Yeah, we're talking about golf. Right. And he's just, like, not really locking in. All right. That was the palate cleanser.

2:09:46Griffin Newman:That's fascinating. Your co-star kind of has a Christina Applegate Sort of styling and look to her But I guess it's not Christina Applegate No, but I think that's They're going to that trope of like Suburban Yeah, yeah, yeah Interesting Yeah, let's pick up back with the plot though

2:10:04David Sims:Martin Fink He goes to the producer Lerner basically just fucking monologues to him Says so much He walks out of there reeling Doesn't even know really what to do it's not really until Shalhoub

2:10:18Griffin Newman:calls him in. Yes, that he even knows what to do. But then we go to, I've got the movie running. Go to the hotel. Him struggling to write. He just has the the ambient sound of traffic intro to his screenplay, right? The sort of the streets of New York. He's also writing the same thing he just wrote. Yeah, the sound of the streets. But here's the interesting thing. There's a really bad trans light in the back of this set, right? It's not believable. And there is no, there is no traffic noise. Yeah. Right? So it's like, that's another weird thing about, like horror-ish thing about the movie is that the hotel itself isn't set in any proper atmosphere.

2:10:53Griffin Newman:When you say trans light, just for our listeners, that's a translucent light. Yeah, a backing that is semi-translucent so that you feel as though light is hitting it properly. But it's a purposely bad one, I think. It's a little odd, right. And then Goodman appears. So Goodman appears for the first time after the Lerner meeting? Yes, and it's almost like, you know, it almost could be like planes, trains, and automobiles or whatever. It's this kind of like garrulous, working guy. He's an insurance salesman. And he's got that kind of like, oh, a writer. Like, oh, you know, I wouldn't know about that, right?

2:11:29Griffin Newman:Like, you know, and Barton thinks of himself as like, oh, I'm here to, you know, stir your soul and to understand you. I'm doing this for you.

2:11:37David Sims:And then it's just perfect characterization of just immediately he's not listening to this guy. No. He's explaining to this guy why he cares about him while ignoring everything he's actually trying to say.

2:11:48Griffin Newman:And he's talking about how hard his job is. Yes. And then Goodman starts talking about how painful the life of the mind is.

2:11:54David Sims:He calls him a working stiff. Yeah. That's so fucking rude. Right. And he thinks he's saying it with respect as, I see you. Don't think it goes ignored that you live a life of misery. The common man. There's this innate condescension to everything he does. And yeah, like not to jump ahead, but there's such a good detail for me in him extending to Goodman. If you're ever in New York City, reach out to my parents. They'll give you a meal, which is basically his one act of unambiguous kindness to this guy. even if it's a little self-serving of like uh i want to be the kind of guy who offers this up and once again i'm not offering hospitality i'm extending my parents to you for hospitality but i do feel like it's like you'll have you'll have some kind of uh welcome in right i think

2:12:40Griffin Newman:it's also him being like i have cred i have like working class parents that you can but that also

2:12:45David Sims:feels like him saying that in that one moment is maybe the thing that stops goodman from murdering him well but but but he may have murdered the parents by the end of which is kind of interesting right which which to me like the tie links up with no country for for old men right yeah which is that um you know anton sugar goes in and and um and and kills the the wife of uh of the protagonist yeah yeah uh is that all real though well we can talk about we can talk about it's the roller coaster of goodman's performance where he's just vacillating so quickly between like charm and sadness and menace and like you know emptiness and gregariousness and all this sort of shit but i do think the way he plays that moment of barton fick extending that to him like goodman really slows down for an instant you see him really process that and it's like he clocks it like i have to remember he's one of the good ones obviously he's going to turn on him by the end of it but i think so much the way goodman plays this is this kind of like son of sam This is a guy who is like answering to higher voices he is hearing, right, of what he feels like he needs to do.

2:13:55David Sims:And there are sort of these like moral tests he's imposing on people, which you hear about from these sorts of like serial killers where they're sort of like this is the moment that made me realize I had to kill this person versus this is the moment that made me realize I couldn't do it. Of course, my favorite serial killer is Hannibal Lecter.

2:14:11Griffin Newman:Well, we love him. The late great, as Mr. President Trump would call him.

2:14:16David Sims:But you know what? Very kindly, many other countries are sending all of their Hannibal Lecter's to us.

2:14:21Griffin Newman:But what I love about Hannibal Lecter is that it is canonical. And as the movie, the books go on more and more clearly, he kills people if he thinks they're rude. Yeah, the free range rude. Right. He's just kind of like, you're fucking rude. I'm going to serve you up for dinner, bitch.

2:14:37David Sims:Do you hear when you dig down like fucking serial killer rabbit holes? There's a lot of that. I don't like to do that. They're looking for the excuse of someone doing something that they perceive as a social faux pas or rudeness and then saying, like, now I have permission to kill you. But I don't think he's a serial killer.

2:14:53Griffin Newman:I think that's all fantasy or whatever. We can talk about it. A crucial image after Goodman leaves is the wallpaper peeling the weird red kind of like flesh like wall beneath it. Right. Behind it.

2:15:05David Sims:Like membrane and and and the like the thick sort of.

2:15:10Griffin Newman:Right. Everything's too gooey and thick. Like the hotel's alive, which rocks. The next thing is Shalhoub, who is the producer type guy. My favorite thing about Shalhoub, apart from everything, because he's so funny, is that when they have lunch, he's got whiskey and milk and he keeps forgetting

2:15:27David Sims:which one to drink from first at the time. It speaks to how on fire this movie is and this era of like... Right, that Shalhoub's like the seventh best performance in it.

2:15:37Griffin Newman:He rocks, obviously.

2:15:38David Sims:And it's almost undeniably. And Shalhoub's one of my favorite actors in the world. And this is one of his best performances. And yet, every time, I'm like, right, fuck, Shiloh is in this. Oh, yeah, he's in this movie, yeah. And he's great. But I feel like this era of, like, PTA was doing this and the Coens were doing this, where there was, like, a wave of filmmakers who all recognized, like, holy shit, there is an incredible class of character actors who have been doing good, like, supporting work in studio films. And what if you just start building entire movies out of just these guys?

2:16:08Griffin Newman:Right, right. Not just use one of them. Right. have Mahoney, Shalhoub, Buscemi, you know, Judy Davis, Michael Lerner, even Goodman. Yeah, 100%. The next scene is the bathroom where he meets Mahoney, who is a William Faulkner whatever type, a sort of a feat southern, but a sort of like genteel southern man with the bow tie and the handkerchief and all that. He meets him like puking

2:16:33David Sims:in like writhing pain.

2:16:34Griffin Newman:But the worst puking noises, maybe in cinema history. Which the movie has already

2:16:39David Sims:set up like the chaos of the sounds of the people on other sides of his room in the hotel, the constant like, speaking of the haunted hotel thing, but just that weird thing. And you can feel this in apartment buildings as well, where you're just like, I'm hearing noises that are both too specific and too abstract.

2:16:56Griffin Newman:The line that gets me, right, first is that he's puking into the toilet and then you see him pick up the handkerchief from the floor. Yeah. But it's not that he says sorry about the noise, but he says sorry about the odor. Yes. And you're just like, get the fucking out of him. Yeah. So bad But then of course Right Barton recognizes him As this esteemed novelist I'm always very distressed When people vomit In the movies And then Speak closely To someone else I feel like Vomiting in the movies Is one of the hardest things To get right It happens all the time And there's the classic Kind of You know Tube Next in the mouth Which has become Almost like It's like we accept That fake feeling As real Because you can't

2:17:38David Sims:Do it real I've had to do it multiple times and it is. Have you always done the truth or have you also done the thing where something's in your mouth and you kind of get it out? I've done it three different ways. I have had three different big vomit scenes. I've had like fully rigged up. I've had we're going to comp this in later a CGI. And I've had you're holding stuff in your mouth and you have to expel it. Which I would imagine holding stuff in the mouth is the best.

2:18:01Griffin Newman:But you can't get much out then. Whenever you see that version of it, you're like, yeah, he had like. And that's the thing.

2:18:07David Sims:It's the easiest to play releasing the thing. It is the hardest to play everything leading up to that, which to me is almost more important of like, how do you play the build? I don't know why people always ask me to fucking puke on screen.

2:18:21Griffin Newman:Well, you look sickly.

2:18:22David Sims:You look like you're on the thing. You know what? That's the answer. I'll call you out.

2:18:26Griffin Newman:You have vomited on blank chat. This is true. Check in mate. As has been. I have yet to do it, but decade of dreams. Decade of dreams. Like, who knows what the next 10 years hold. During a national recording or you made it to the Patreon? In the Patreon car ride episode. Ben did it on Mike in a car. No, I think Ben actually did turn the recorder off right before it happened.

2:18:46David Sims:The only reason it wasn't on Mike was because Ben was fucking fixing it from the inside. I went to the bathroom. I didn't.

2:18:52Griffin Newman:Griffin exited and then returned with, I just barfed. You know what, in fact? I threw up in Alex Ross Perry's car. Yes.

2:18:58David Sims:Decade of Dreams, the episode I vomited on. In the car. Sorry. Was it cleaned up? Like, this thing's bothering me. I was able to find a loose shopping cart. Ben, no. No, no. We had gotten Dunkin' Donuts. I was not in this car. You finished your iced coffee, then you removed the lid and puked into the cup and then put the lid back on and acted like you were going to get away with it. None of us would notice, and I called you out.

2:19:22Griffin Newman:Even though there were like four to five of you in the car. That's pretty smooth, actually. I was definitely, I was resourceful, and I was not going to be like, doop-de-doop-de-doop. I was going to be like, we need to pull over. You

2:19:34David Sims:Ben Griffin You puked entirely in the cup Your aim was good Yeah You made no other mess Was it like a venti? I mean It was pretty tall It was pretty tall It was a big Dunkin' Donuts And then I saw you kind of go like this And turn the recorders back on And I immediately said Ben I need to acknowledge what just happened

2:19:53Griffin Newman:I called it out before We need to address the open Ben just He knew It had to be on mic He knew Exactly I just want to connect a dot here Everything is copy

2:20:02David Sims:The episode where I puked, I said, hold on, I'm going to go to the bathroom. I got up, I went to the bathroom, I came back, and I went, I just vomited.

2:20:09Griffin Newman:You did.

2:20:10David Sims:That was our Starship Troopers episode. And that was the episode. Which was the episode after which we met. Exactly. Because I loved that episode so much. You tweeted about it and said, this is a great episode about a great movie. And we were like, holy shit, Chris White listens to this podcast and we messaged you. If I hadn't puked in that episode, we never would have met.

2:20:26Griffin Newman:That's beautiful. Full circle. After that, he meets Judy Davis, who was kind of I feel like sort of her peak acclaim, like this is when she's just becoming such, like she's not an actor people talk enough about anymore. No. Because her peak was the sort of early 90s.

2:20:43David Sims:I also think she had a notoriously big ego. And there was a little bit of a...

2:20:47Griffin Newman:So do I.

2:20:48David Sims:You know the great anecdote about her. No, what is it? It's one of my favorite Hollywood stories of all time. That she's working on Passage to India. Right, early in her career. Maybe her first film. Certainly her first major.

2:20:58Griffin Newman:Not her first, but her first big movie. Right.

2:21:00David Sims:And David Lean's comeback after 20 years on the bench. and they're having an argument over the way to play a scene. Yeah. And she said, why should I listen to you? What have you done? Wow. And he said, Lawrence of Arabia. And her response was, I mean, what have you done lately? Well, she had him there. It's one of the greatest burns of all life.

2:21:18Griffin Newman:I love that she didn't take that line down. She was like, I'm coming right back at you. Brief encounters, old. Yes. One of the worst lines I've ever heard in a movie is from Sex and the City 2. Great movie. Lawrence, I know what you're about to say. Please, go ahead. When, I forget which character it was. Samantha. When Samantha sees a hot guy and says, Lawrence of my labia. Yeah. What, you thought Carrie said that one? No. You thought Charlotte busted out Lawrence of my labia? That's fair enough. The thing about Sex and the City 2. Ben, can you just do a quick note

2:21:53David Sims:just for the edit? Christmas spoke, he said, one of the worst lines I've ever heard. I think he meant to say one of the best lines I've ever heard. The thing about Sex and the City 2. we can just do a pick up later.

2:22:01Griffin Newman:You want to just toss me what the run time on that movie is?

2:22:04David Sims:I believe that one is a tight 12 years. 145 minutes? You were off by one minute. It's 146, baby!

2:22:14Griffin Newman:Because Michael Patrick King was like, no, they need another minute. Not 225, 226. Yeah. One of the worst movies I've had to like sit through in a theater. It's a brutalizing experience. Sex and the City 1 is not a particularly good movie but like, you're kind of like, yeah, you know, there's some stuff here for everybody. whatever. We're all having, we're all drinking cocktail. Sex and the City 2 is a little bit of a sort of like, like, yeah, slow cinema, like art house punishing. I feel like that movie was right. Pushed me into a depression actually watching that movie. Yeah. Yeah. Because that's a thought.

2:22:46Griffin Newman:And you haven't exited. Have you seen Sex and the City 2? I never have. Yeah. It's not very good. I've only seen two episodes of Sex and the City ever. Well, then I think you shouldn't start with Sex and the City 2 if you want to return to the franchise. I'm going to start with two and I'm going to go backwards. You should know. No, you should start with, and just like that. And then keep... Oh, you're right. That's what I should... The latest episode.

2:23:03David Sims:I'm going to wait for it, and just like that to end. And then wade backwards against the card. And then I'm going to go memento style.

2:23:11David Sims:David! Yes, everyone hates bank fees, right?

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2:23:57Griffin Newman:Terms and limits apply. Go to chime.com slash disclosures for details.

2:24:10David?

2:24:11David Sims:Yes. Red alert. Uh-oh. There's been an outbreak. Biohazard. Of a new Patreon series. It's contagious. Oh, that's so true.

2:24:24Griffin Newman:It's been cooked up in the lab for your pleasure.

2:24:28David Sims:From the fine folks at the Umbrella Corporation, we are covering Resident Evil. The film franchise. Yes.

2:24:35Griffin Newman:We've got the first franchise. Six movies. Yes. That beautiful second franchise. How many? Six? Seven? It's got the one movie. Oh, it's got the one. We'll be covering all of them on Patreon, doing commentaries on, yes, the Resident Evil, Apocalypse, Extinction, Afterlife, Retribution, the final chapter. Welcome to Raccoon City.

2:24:54David Sims:This is an exciting time. Zach Kregor, friend of the podcast, has a new Resident Evil coming out. We thought this was a good opportunity to revisit the history of Resident Evil movies.

2:25:03Griffin Newman:Why not? Why not? Why can't we? Why can't we? We can. Check in for that August 1st, and it's going to be running all the way through November 1st.

2:25:14David Sims:Followed by your March Madness winner, Dracula. Dr. Acula himself. That's so fun. So that's great. That's great. Thank you. Thank you so much.

2:25:31Griffin Newman:So, yeah, it meets Judy Davis, who's his sort of... She's phenomenal. Incredible in this movie.

2:25:38David Sims:Just to be clear, I think she basically never misses as an actor.

2:25:41Griffin Newman:She kind of didn't miss, but it's this era. It's like Georgia, Alice, Barton Fink, Naked Lunch, Husbands and Wives. Like, that's the ref she's amazing in. Husbands and Wives,

2:25:50David Sims:people kind of thought she was going to win the Oscar.

2:25:52Griffin Newman:And then some stuff happened.

2:25:55David Sims:It is one of the most transparent on camera. An actress clearly is just miserable that she's lost. Watching Judy Davis' reaction in the telecast is amazing. But the worst performance.

2:26:07Griffin Newman:I think the ref is kind of the end of Hollywood taking her very seriously, which maybe it's because she was tough to work with.

2:26:14David Sims:But then she'll show up in like two scenes in the breakup and be incredible where you're like, this is a nothing part and she's somehow making a full character. She's in Marie Antoinette.

2:26:23Griffin Newman:Occasionally she'll still pop up. She's great in this. And she's Mahoney's wife or partner or whatever. She's his assistant who's also his mistress. But he's eventually revealed to be kind of his muse slash. She's kind of the wife from the movie The Wife. What If There Was? Exactly. Where she's kind of writing some of the stuff for him.

2:26:45David Sims:Yes. I think part of what makes this performance so effective to me is the way the movie is set up, you're like, oh, here's the third lead, right? She's entered. Yes. And I assume the rest of the movie is going to be him ping-ponging between these two other characters. Right, we'll play out there. Right, and then she dies so much more abruptly than you're expecting, but she somehow within only like three scenes gives a full enough performance that you feel like she's wedged in your mind as like an important character, where it's that jarring when she's gone.

2:27:18Griffin Newman:Right. Her role is mostly her going like, Mr. What's his name in the movie? Mr. Mayhew. Mr. Mayhew is indisposed while he's like, in the background. Like he is the drunkest man ever alive. Yeah.

2:27:31David Sims:Number one. I mean, I scream for honey when I'm drunk.

2:27:39Griffin Newman:At one point he's singing, the one where he goes and pees, is he's singing the song, what's, you know, Old Black Joe, which is like a folk song that's about being a slave. And the joke is that that's how he sees himself, right? Is that that's the sort of insane mental prison he's constructed. He's like, I'm enslaved to Hollywood. I can't escape.

2:28:02David Sims:Shalhoub yelling about him being a louse and Barton continuing to say, he's one of our finest writers. One of our finest louses! It's the kind of Cohen dialogue I love more than anything. It's kind of like a Judy Davis, David Lean situation. He won't drop it. And by the way, I mean, these guys are like complaining about being enslaved to the system and everything. like I as I complain about studio filmmaking I'm also conscious of the fact like I should be so fucking lucky of course I guess right not to turn it into a binary thing but this is what I was trying to get at with the studio system thing of like it made perfect sense why it needs to be eradicated in the moment and now you look back and you're like fuck was that better off I understand everything was broken about it but it's right this striving for like what would I give up in order to try to eke out a win in this world.

2:28:48Griffin Newman:What I am trying to say to you is that what you are really missing is an era where film was unchallenged as a visual medium. That was a huge part of it. Yes! A huge part of it. It's not because the studios controlled everything. It's because there was no competition for movies. None. Yes. None for 50 years. There's no competition in the visual arts. Yes, but sure. Here's the thing. Apart from a painting. Well,

2:29:09David Sims:I've heard. I've seen some good ones in my movie at all. Yeah, exactly.

2:29:13Griffin Newman:They don't move unless you kind of Mona Lisa style kind of she's looking at me or if you carve out the holes like scooby-doo style and make that's

2:29:21David Sims:a bad hosley move of course peep it is probably paula and a pollyanna-ish of me right to be like

2:29:27Griffin Newman:the great the golden age of hollywood was a truly golden age no where i'm like specifically a thing

2:29:32David Sims:i wish that fucking happened i'm not even saying this for me right is that netflix would be like we're gonna sign fucking like 40 character actors to yearly contracts right and just slot them into our projects into these small roles.

2:29:47Griffin Newman:But then she would be stuck in making, no offense, Netflix. Maybe Chris wants to work in Netflix one day. Swill! No one watches. David, how dare you? Pig Swill! I've never worked for Netflix, but I personally, I take offense at that. I did watch Freigied on Netflix. I just keep inserting over Swill, like beautiful masterpiece. Great films. Best experienced on your phone or a smaller device. Pocket size. Your watch?

2:30:13David Sims:What you were saying is correct, Sims, but the reality is that people are begging to be cast in Swill. Of course. Because they're like, fuck, there are no other jobs. So if the system is based around Swill, at least make a system that benefits the people.

2:30:29Griffin Newman:I must point out about the golden age of Hollywood is that people who were not white were not allowed to make movies basically at all. And a movie that I like a lot is Babylon, which is a louder and more obnoxious movie than Barton Fink. you didn't notice that it had a bit of a sort of heightened yelly tone Babylon? I thought it was a silent picture high energy and that explores some of the interesting ways that Hollywood would try to make movies for black audiences back then but there was so much racism in the way it was presented and the way they treated people and all that and that is a movie about sort of what you're talking about of like man it kind of rocked back then and we were all kind of in it you know like making these fucking movies but also it was a poison rotting away

2:31:11David Sims:you know our souls and i guess that right right him watching avatar at the end of the movie and

2:31:16Griffin Newman:being like fuck that's like movies wrong but industry you know some notes mezzo mezzo i think that hits me a little bit barton fink watch avatar at the end of this movie no but it uh what's his

2:31:27David Sims:name uh calva watches it at the end of uh babylon barton fink should watch avatar barton fink would

2:31:33Griffin Newman:love avatar the life of the mind i have a question because we're talking about work and you alluded to it earlier in the episode. I'd love to hear about how this portrays writer's block, the writing process. I feel like we haven't heard about that. I mean, I think everybody's writer's block is different. It probably portrays it pretty realistically as sort of a form of torture. And all the stuff about the life of the mind is like, yeah, yeah, that's kind of the deal, but I wouldn't talk about it in that way.

2:32:05David Sims:You have also had a very interesting balance in your career of like getting to make personal things that are driven by your desire to tell this specific story and like doing assignment work. And I feel like when I talk to you, as much as you sometimes have frustrations of I took this assignment job but tried to do the best version of it and I'm unhappy with the final product, you do understand the difference in your relationship to the ownership and the emotional investment versus when it's your thing versus I did a job and then it was out of my hands. Well, I think when it's for another director, I do feel like I can disengage to the degree that I feel like I owe it to that director as a director's medium.

2:32:42And so what they want kind of goes. That being said, I did have a modest proposal that I wanted to air on this podcast, which is that there's a little QR code on the poster of every movie. And if you click on it, you get a PDF of the original script of the fucking movie that you just saw. So that you know what has happened in the interim. Not like anyone would ever read it.

2:33:06David Sims:You a couple times have sent that to us. Yes. I want to send it to the world. And it is very illuminating. I want to force their eyes open with toothpicks. You've just been like, I just want you guys to know this was the last thing that I handed in. Yeah. when my job was done this is how it looked versus what you've seen but this is like so that it's perennial right this is the same crap that that like is is that Barton Fink feeling like do you think part of why the movie

2:33:33Griffin Newman:resonates so beautifully well also part of the

2:33:35David Sims:beautiful pain of the shit is like fuck this movie sucks and it's not what I wanted it to be and I have no ownership of it and my name is attached to it forever and now people will hold me somewhat responsible for the sins of this film on the other hand And what's worse, not getting the credit? Exactly.

2:33:53Griffin Newman:To move us through the plot a little bit, you know, there's another meeting with Goodman. There's another meeting with Shalhoub where he's like, still, I have no idea. Shalhoub has the hilarious idea of like, go watch some dailies from a wrestling picture that's getting made right now. So Barton Fink just watches like endless takes of a guy going like, like running around the wrestling.

2:34:13David Sims:Shalhoub's innate hostility, immediate hostility to Barton Fink, which is like, it's a similar pitch to Michael Lerner, but it's coming from the exact opposite direction, which is I'm so fucking angry this guy's taken a liking to you. My job is to like two guys like you out. Right. And for some reason he's gotten fixated on you.

2:34:31Griffin Newman:You're allowed to be bulletproof for a minute. Right.

2:34:33David Sims:And you seem even worse as a starting point than most of the guys that get handed to me.

2:34:38Griffin Newman:I love that they're also at a New York themed restaurant. Yes. Yes. Right. They're at a faux diner. It's just these little things where it's like he's like losing his mind. Yes. And it's just I love like obviously he's feeling homesick, feeling out of sorts. And now he's at this like really pretend looking version of home.

2:34:56David Sims:Right. And he thinks the Mahoney character is going to help give him guidance to sort of understanding. Here's how someone else has balanced these two things. And what he realizes is this man is. He's in hell. He's in hell. He's not functional. He's not producing good work. His life is in shambles. Everyone surrounding him views him with resentment. and perhaps he's not even really writing most of the work that Barton Fink attributes to him.

2:35:19Griffin Newman:He looks like shit, too. He really, they capture, like, he really is going downhill.

2:35:25David Sims:But it's what you're saying of, like, right, it's a system that only allows a certain type of person to work on movies at all. Here's Judy Davis, whose life is, like, cleaning up this guy's fucking vomit and not getting paid properly to write all of his work, you know? Like, she has to basically, like, puppeteer this guy Weekend at Bernie style. into getting anything published or produced. And then when Barton Fink realizes that and puts it together, he's angry at her. It's such a good choice from Turturro that he's like yelling at her in the hotel room.

2:35:57Griffin Newman:He's self-righteous about it too.

2:35:58David Sims:Right, that he's calling her up to think that she can help him, but also because he's clearly got a bit of a crush on her, right? And here's the scene where he needs something from her and wants something from her. And the second he starts to put together that maybe she's the mind behind his last 10 to 15 years of work, his response is, wait, admit it! You wrote all of it! Right. Like accusatory. As if she committed a crime.

2:36:22Griffin Newman:Right. As if she's stolen something from him

2:36:23David Sims:or whatever. But then he's also like, why aren't you taking credit? Like he's angry at her for not having pride in it.

2:36:28Griffin Newman:Well, he's not understanding not wanting the credit, I guess.

2:36:31David Sims:And also not understanding the system.

2:36:35Griffin Newman:Right. And not long after that is when she comes to his hotel. That is the scene. He yells at her in the hotel. Right. It's all part of the same scene. or they sleep and then they make love and the camera does go into the drain and Chris thought there was a little maybe over the top down the drain and his leg is going down in a nightmarish moment wakes up and this is sort of where you can start to think about the movie entering a more surreal zone

2:37:00David Sims:he calls her and begs her to come over she says she can't because she has to do work with him he falls asleep and then he wakes up to her knocking on the door and she's there I think if you want to believe that the second half of the movie didn't happen

2:37:12Griffin Newman:it's in that moment that the transition happens. I would say, just to talk about the whole of Barton Fink, the moment you can really point to is when the walls catch on fire and yet the hotel is not consumed, where you can start to be like, me thinks reality is blurring in Barton Fink a bit. You know, like... But I argue it's a build from there. Yes, it is. No, no, this is where it begins. Helps him, fucks him, dies. Fucks him, dies, and then Goodman, you know, he gets Goodman to come in and get rid of the body, and Goodman is alarmed but also just does it.

2:37:43David Sims:Yeah, and here's a great... Another big puke. Another off-camera puke. Yeah. Here's another great detail of like weird snapshots of different eras of Hollywood culture. He says to Barton something to the effect of this is bad. Even if they eventually clear you in the court, you'll be ruined forever. Yes. Which is clearly an analog to Fatty Arbuckle. Right. In this era, this is like the earliest days of Hollywood scandals where if you were accused of something, even if you won the case and cleared yourself in the court of law, the public wouldn't touch you ever again. You were forever soiled. And now I think, just an interesting counterpoint, we're in this sort of - It's an anti-cantile culture movie.

2:38:23David Sims:Yes. And basically anytime anyone, there is like released documentation of their crimes, you immediately see 8 ,000 people in the comments go, well, what happened to innocent until proven guilty? I'll wait until I hear all the evidence. Like you can, someone could be found guilty and they're still like well but we all know the legal system gets things wrong whereas in that day there was this puritanical nature of like we don't want to know too much of our stars the veil cannot be pierced and especially if any idea is implanted in our head of them doing that something untoward even if we find it's not the case we're not getting that image out of our head it's over um there is this moment again when we're talking about dreams

2:39:05Griffin Newman:that whereby Barton opens the Bible to Daniel 2. Yes. Where he reads a passage about Nebuchadnezzar's dream. It's not like as much as the Coens are like, I don't know, maybe. It's like obviously there's a lot of allusions to things. The camera zooms in on a passage in the Bible about dreaming. Yeah. Yeah, and then the first verse is his... The joke goes to the top of Daniel 2 and it's faded on a tenement building. You know, like it's his stupid fucking intro

2:39:37David Sims:that he can't lose. I think the Coens are as good with sound as anyone in the history of movies. Without a doubt. It is like...

2:39:45Griffin Newman:I mean, we did just cover, of course, David Lynch, another master of that in a more loud...

2:39:49David Sims:But I think part of their magic is they always know how to like really put a focus on Foley work that is just 10 % overcranked. It's just a little overstated and a little overly crisp, but every single movement and texture needs to have a specific sound associated with it, which is so powerful in terms of evoking specific feelings in you in a way that I think a lot of filmmakers undervalue in terms of going for realism or saying, we don't need to hear every creak of the readjustment or whatever it is. But then they'll also, as you were saying, Chris, make these decisions of not hearing sound outside the window of the hotel.

2:40:26Yeah.

2:40:26David Sims:Where then when there is silence or an absence of something in a Coen's movie, it's that much more unsettling of like why is it this quiet? Yeah, everything has been thought through. Nothing is by default. Right, versus being able to hear the wallpaper.

2:40:40Griffin Newman:This is also where Goodman's character leaves him a head in a box. Sorry, just a box with nothing. Just hold on to that box for me. And then not long after, the two cops appear, classic kind of Hollywood 30s, you know, like guys in hats and jackets, you know, right? Like who are like, that guy's not who he says he is. he's a serial killer called Madman Munt. I also I think we should even say though that John Goodman basically does all of the hard work. Yes. Which is removes the body. He does all of the like manual work especially like right like he gets rid of the body. And Barton Fink is not even really that like thankful about it.

2:41:18Griffin Newman:I feel like you don't like this guy. I feel like you got a problem with Barton Fink. But also Ben. He's the voice of the people. He is not. I think he's trying. It's bad manners not to thank the person who's disposed of the corpse that you found in your bed. You should at least say thank you. At least verbal thanks, if not a tip. Sure. Like a crisp 20, you know, and a handshake.

2:41:38David Sims:But also, this is a key question of like, is he the one who murdered her? And is his helping a button thing helping to set him up? I would say that's the most... I got that. If you're going to take it... That's the most straightforward kind of... He's basically making a trap for him to incriminate him, part of him, part of which is him being that helpful.

2:41:57Griffin Newman:The way I sort of take Barton Fink, not again to be like sort of like this is what the movie means, is I'm like, no, I mean like Charlie slash Carl is in his imagination. And it's like initially it's this patronizing vision of sort of like, yes, this is the kind of guy I'm writing for. The guy who's like, oh, well, you know, I'm an honest Joe and I'm an honest fuck. He's sort of folksy idioms. I'll curl your hair. And then as he starts to curdle in madness and get, you know, hate that he's writing this movie. He starts hating. He villainizes that guy. Exactly.

2:42:29David Sims:Like, they're just like, they're just monsters. And not only that, like, he's disgusting. He can't stop sweating. Right. Exactly. Before he literally becomes a serial killer and an embodiment of hell. And then, right.

2:42:38Griffin Newman:First it's the serial killer thing. And then he's right. He's a demon. Like, he's a demon. I'm going to tie it to the kind of the film thing, which is like, he's imagining an audience or a potential audience. Like, there's a subject in an audience. Right. And like when you go to these marketing screenings, part of the reason I think that obviously they're asking the questions that they're asking of the audience in order to try to maximize the profit that they can make of it. But if you look at the questions, basically they're treating the audience like a bunch of fucking morons. Right? And they don't say it, but it's like, how can we get money out of these fucking morons?

2:43:11David Sims:Yes. It is kind of astonishing.

2:43:14Griffin Newman:I mean, it's – A couple times I've done it. the questions basically are like, did you get this? Yes. Did this make sense? Did you track that this was happening in the end? Do you have a sense of cause and effect?

2:43:25David Sims:My experience in TV was almost always having these conversations with executives where they'd say like, you try to argue for why you thought the integrity of a thing you wanted to convey a certain way, how you want to execute it, what you were trying to say. And then their response is always, almost verbatim, something to the effect of, no no no no we get it we love it I'm just worried about them

2:43:53Griffin Newman:I have been shown movies by studios early like well before the screening for press in these screenings where they're essentially like can you tell us if people will get this like we're not going to take your on fact here but like we're trying to see we think people are not going to get this and they will usually show me a broadly appealing film that is not that hard to get it's not like they're showing me something really weird

2:44:15David Sims:The thing I find fascinating about the, no, no, no, of course we get it.

2:44:19Griffin Newman:And they always say, and we know what she's going for. We know what that guy wants. But like, does it make sense?

2:44:24David Sims:And my experience is more of the TV executives while you're inside the belly of the beast, right? Is like either it is very clear that they assume everyone in the audience is an idiot and they're a genius. The assumption, right.

2:44:36Griffin Newman:Right.

2:44:37David Sims:And they can't be making things at their own level because their level of intellect does not reflect the target audience of the product. Or they clearly don't get it. Like they literally just don't understand. You get into these arguments sometimes where you're like, oh, you actually just didn't get that's the same character. Yeah. I mean, that's only happened to me once,

2:44:55Griffin Newman:but there was a movie. I don't know if I should say it. I probably will just say it, which is The Little Stranger. A good movie. Oh, yes. Where I had a conversation with someone who worked for some, I forget if, I honestly forget if it was a studio or for Publicity House. But I remember you being like. Where they were like, I had to explain the ending to them. Not in a picture. I was like, no, but the ending was this. And they were like, ah. ah and i was like oh you don't know that that's because the ending's kind of the whole movie that

2:45:19David Sims:movie got totally dumped for someone who had just directed a best picture nominee and i remember you saying to me that like you had had that conversation with them and we're like i think it's good and they were like really it's good they were truly confused this is news to me after um the disposal

2:45:37Griffin Newman:of the body and all that there's a scene i think first barton writes the script he puts plugs in

2:45:41David Sims:his ears and he writes a script he goes into a cohen's s flow state and just vomits it out and

2:45:45Griffin Newman:then he a scene that's kind of pivotal is that he goes to celebrate by dancing and he had gets in this fight with these guys who are about to ship out to the war right an impossibly square-jawed man yes hilarious like action great casting yeah and so much of the movie at this point barton is clearly like i hate these fucking you know jocks and you're like the guy says like hey can I dance with her? I'm shipping out tomorrow. Like you're like, oh, he's actually, he's sympathetic. The guy isn't big dog at all. Right. Yeah. But then he starts to fight with them. I am a writer, right? It's contempt for the audience.

2:46:18Griffin Newman:And then that's where he's like, I serve the common man. And they all start beating him up. I'm a creative. It's like the worst,

2:46:26David Sims:worst thing to just say. The other part of it is like throughout the movie, there have been a bunch of like anti-Semitic slurs thrown at Barton Fink almost always by other Jewish characters, right? It's like the self-loathing Jewish heart of the entertainment industry that is sort of like, we are trash and we need to have contempt for ourselves as we make art that reflects the goyim, what we want to be, right? And yet, when these guys attack him, the slur, as it were, that they are throwing at him is 4A. Yes. Right? No, 4F. It's not. 4F, I'm sorry. that they're constantly mocking like you're, as you were saying, unfit to go to war.

2:47:08David Sims:This feeling that all the capable men are about to leave the culture and we're going to be left with fucking self-loathing weasels like this guy.

2:47:16Griffin Newman:And then the movie ends with its final long sequence of he returns to the hotel, the cops are there, they've read the script. One of them kind of likes it. One of them doesn't. Yeah. And then Goodman reappears. The walls catch fire. Goodman shoots the cops and then monologues at Barton

2:47:38David Sims:can you pull up in the dossier JJ had a good section about how they execute the hallway gag

2:47:42Griffin Newman:I can bring that up but that was a dangerous it was probably a bit of shooting pain in the ass they

2:47:48David Sims:in 1991 were like well obviously we'll have to do this with CGI which I can't imagine how bad it would have looked at the time but they were just like I don't know how we could safely execute this and it's why I want you to pull this up because it's just like astounding that they got

2:48:02Griffin Newman:it looks as good as it did and that no one died yeah trying to find this uh is it it's in the dossier yeah so while you're looking at uh he says look upon me right this i was i'm thinking about like the bits that have been sort of uh taken magpie fashion by other movies it felt like witness me a bit look upon me and i'll show you the life of the mind yeah and then there's this weird moment where where john goodman's character says heil hitler right before he he shoots the second yeah but i do not think that this is uh the key that unlocks anything actually no but it's That's what's happening in the moment is this monstrousness is creeping around the edges of the world.

2:48:38Griffin Newman:He also brings up the thing from their first meeting, which is that Barton complained about the noise. And he's saying that he's still wounded by this. Now, he did just shoot a bunch of people. His sympathies might be... But he's like, and you just complained about me making noise. He starts to speak aloud and castigate Barton like Goodman you know and he says you don't listen that's kind of cool

2:49:04David Sims:and Goodman's a character whose like ears are literally like causing him pain why am I not finding this there's like goo

2:49:11Griffin Newman:like leaking out of his ears

2:49:12David Sims:and he's going to doctors he's trying to get this fucking thing figured out and yet like he's still trying to listen to Barton I mean it's it's real like acting is reacting shit where the shifts between Goodman doing his sort of like verbose Cohen's runs and then when he sort of pulls back and you can just fucking watch Goodman process whatever flowery shit Martin Fink is going on there's such a universe of reaction within him it's a freaking amazing performance we said that at the beginning why can't I find this?

2:49:44Griffin Newman:where is it?

2:49:45David Sims:let me look it up

2:49:46Griffin Newman:I think you must have found it somewhere else I think it's not in the dossier no offense to JJ

2:49:51David Sims:maybe it's on America's most trusted news source Wikipedia?

2:49:55Griffin Newman:possibly We skipped over the poolside scene. Oh, yeah. The second Lerner scene where he's in the bathrobe. And I wanted to shout out John Pulido. We love him. He's like, has that guy ever had hair? He was born with a comb over. Here's the great thing.

2:50:10David Sims:And so, pin not to talk about this in the Miller's Crossing episode, but we'll just do it here because you asked the question. He's in six Coen movies. Yes. John Pulido. We're going to have a lot of wonderful time with Mr. Pulido. he did I believe a random roles with the AV club about 10 years ago before his untimely passing perfect subject for that and he said that he had known the Coens when he was younger maybe they had gone to see him in a play okay and he read the Miller's Crossing script and was like I gotta play this guy and have you seen Miller's Crossing before no that's sort of his biggest role you will have seen it last week but he's playing more the learner type in that movie right okay and he reads it and is like I gotta play this fucking part and had his agents submit him.

2:50:52David Sims:And the Coens respond like, oh, he's not the right type. That's not what we're looking for. And as Polito tells it, in five years, he had gained a lot of weight and lost all of his hair. And he was like, the last time they had saw me was I was a pretty boy. And they thought of me as this like Italian hunk. Oh, damn, he kind of was. And he was just like, I have so comfortably transformed into this different type of performer that I'm owning and loving. Yeah. And I have to sell the Coen brothers that I've become the perfect Coen brothers character. Which he sure has. But they had him in their mind as like a pretty boy.

2:51:29David Sims:So he did have that era. But yet the second he started looking like John Pulido, that's when he really started working and never stopped.

2:51:36Griffin Newman:It is from Wikipedia, Griffin, but I'm sure this is true. They built an alternate hallway in a airplane hangar, putting gas jets behind the walls, obviously.

2:51:46David Sims:And sort of incrementally with each passing step following him. Correct.

2:51:49Griffin Newman:as women's walking through the hall running through someone on a catwalk is opening all the jets. I mean, just like precision timing. Every take, they had to rebuild everything. They had a second hallway ready for pickups. That is expensive. I was thinking about like the production thing. But my guess is like largely this production was not that expensive beyond like costuming. Like they're doing a lot of location stuff. The hotel is real. They chose their targets. I'm sure Dennis The Room is not real. I think he just made the argument

2:52:17David Sims:like it's worth spending the money on this. This is where to put the money. And it sure is, because it's burned into my memory.

2:52:24Griffin Newman:It's a fairly compelling sequence.

2:52:25David Sims:If this had 91 CGI flames, the movie would fall apart in the sequence. It would be a bit of a bummer.

2:52:30Griffin Newman:Yes. And so, or whatever, post-production kind of like optic, I don't know what you would do. And it's not just that the imagery is so powerful, but it's also like watching Goodman crank his performance all the way up to the maximum volume while surrounded by real fire. Yeah.

2:52:46David Sims:it feels so real because you're like he's actually having to do this surrounded by this level I'm sure it would have been a scary it would have been there would have been a long fucking safety meeting beforehand nobody would be quite sure if things were going to blow up or not is the set going to catch on fire you'd be pretty amped

2:53:06Griffin Newman:like miracle of movies that they got it after Goodman's incredible monologue he does something that I think is really cool which is he pulls the bed spring apart the bed frame part and the camera zooms in on his face in what's become sort of a meme almost, right? Sweaty red face good man. Like it's him straining. Yes. That particular image of him. Yeah, you're right. And then he does say, right, he visited the family in New York and the package isn't his and he goes like this and that's the end of him and walks into the flames.

2:53:39David Sims:What's his last line? Isn't it Hail Hitler or it's right before that?

2:53:41Griffin Newman:No, he says Hail Hitler before he shoots the guy. Oh, you're right. His last thing is the package I gave you lied. It isn't mine. And then he just goes like this. Yeah. It rocks. He should have won an Oscar. I think he's too scary. That's my assumption is that the Oscars were like, I don't know what to make of this. It's too weird.

2:53:57David Sims:Yeah. Yeah. I do. I do just think the movie was a little too heady for them at the time.

2:54:03Griffin Newman:It is a weird movie.

2:54:04David Sims:It just feels like this guy was like, we talked about how quickly like Roseanne season one springboards to always springboards to the Flintstones. Like America just immediately was like, we're buying anything with this guy. He was clearly so beloved within the industry. It still is, but was right out of the gate. It just feels like an obvious like kind of. But he only makes one movie next year,

2:54:31Griffin Newman:which is The Babe. But then I feel like by a couple years later, and obviously he's making Roseanne, his sort of like he's in a lot of stuff career start, right where it's like goodman's a pretty reliable like two three four movies this is the era where

2:54:46David Sims:they were like i guess he has to be a leading man right i guess we have to construct vehicles around him what's the right source material what's the right projects and then he i think like transitions to an area of flexibility of like i'll just do anything i'm happy to play the lead i'm happy to be in one scene i'm happy to be the second guy the cohen's always i'll do comedy and indie and drama and action and yeah he's just he's fucking Not only is he, you know, the classic Sims, when's he bad? When is he bad? I was watching it last night and I was like, has this guy ever had a moment that is less than great?

2:55:22You know, I saw him on Broadway in the front page, which was this sort of all star cast thing where it was like fucking Nathan Lane and John Slattery and Goodman

2:55:37Griffin Newman:where you're like, Jesus, any of these guys could headline a Broadway play. Right. You know, like, what the fuck is going on? And it was that weird sort of phase in his life where he suddenly lost a lot of weight.

2:55:46David Sims:Yes. And his energy changed a lot. He got sober. And seemed kind of rueful.

2:55:50Griffin Newman:And it's not like he was bad in it, but I remember being let down by, like, he was a little muted. And it was sort of like, that's weird. In a play that's mostly people, like, screaming at the top of their heads. Right. Or top of their lungs. Sorry. I just. But I never. I have certainly never thought he was bad.

2:56:04David Sims:I have never. I've not seen every single thing he's done. but I have not in my mind consciously witnessed a false moment from him what about

2:56:13Griffin Newman:Blue's Brothers 2000 I think he's good in it I rewatched it recently I believe you you guys see everything I want to say this twice in theaters I've not seen Blue's Brothers 2000 and I watched it

2:56:26David Sims:like six months ago I was like it's time to reassess well to an extent David it's your it's your job right so I'm always you always seem to see everything right now it is my job right I'm just sick yeah you're doing great but it's hard is it it's hard to to keep up with movies with children and

2:56:41Griffin Newman:and i sympathize david as well that's true but you just have to in my opinion when you're a parent you can't you do have space for kind of like one extracurricular thing basically it's kind of what it is that you pick right i don't know um the final two scenes coda scenes are so so good michael learner in his like mussolini costume where he's like had a general costume rigged up for him that's when he's turned on Fink where he's like this is too arty farty good side gag when he turns around because you think he's in a tan suit and then suddenly he's covered in metals it's so funny yeah and in a daze after being chewed out for his whatever terrible script he goes to the beach he sees the lady from the painting he's got the box and she goes like this you know and that's it he says you're very beautiful are you in the pictures and she says don't be silly and I had a I had a false memory that what she says is don't be silly nothing good comes of the pictures that would be way too obvious yeah it's like but I wrote that's what I took away actually it was like it is the takeaway yeah sure no I think this movie is about how writing is fun and easy and pictures are easy breezy and right it's good Hollywood I mean they

2:57:54David Sims:there's no business like show business there's no business like show business they talk about it a lot of the quotes that JJ pulled up in the dossier is they're just like, a lot of this stuff just comes out of us organically. Like, it does feel like so much of their incubation process is they start to hone in on a couple things they find interesting. And it's like, huh, that's an interesting historical moment. This is an interesting place. What about a character like this? What if we wrote for this guy? And then they get to a point where they have like eight elements they find compelling. And then they're just like, let's just see where it goes.

2:58:24David Sims:And there's an episode of, of course, my favorite web series, the Russo Brothers Pizza Film School in which they have Josh Brolin on. The Russo Brothers have a show where they interview people who worked on movies and break down storytelling and screenplays. And they are guys who think about storytelling in a pretty formulaic way. They are proud of how much they feel like they have figured out the scheme of how to make stories.

2:58:47Griffin Newman:But the first movie they ever made, Welcome to Collinwood, is a very, very straightforward Coen Brothers-y kind of movie. Big deal on Madonna Street.

2:58:54David Sims:It's very Coen's-y. Right. And they're talking to, they didn't, unsurprisingly, and the Coen brothers did not want to go on Pizza Film School, but Josh Brolin did, and they did a No Country episode with them, and they were trying to apply their screenplay logic math, right? And being like, look, it doesn't seem like it, but if you actually break apart the script and you stopwatch it, there is this very deliberate construction. And Josh Brolin was just like, look, I've worked with them a couple times. I've talked to them a lot. They do not think that way. Right, right. They just, like, they start on page one, and they get to the end, and they write what's interesting to them, and they are not thinking about what it would take to keep the audience invested or how you're swinging their alliances or any of these sorts of things.

2:59:37David Sims:I think so much of their magic is just they know how to make every single scene interesting. Even with these movies that are oddly shaped or have films that are hard to identify, they're able to just always isolate and circle what is the inherent drama and comedy of this scene in a way that is really playable, that is surrounded by them working with the best crafts people in the world where you're just on board leading in trying to figure out what the fuck is going on yeah i agree i think they're

3:00:09Griffin Newman:organically and um multifariously excellent yeah um film was at 91 can um big competition there i would say is kieslowski's double life of ron hink uh also lars von trier's europa yeah uh is um Homicide the Mammoth movie which is really good Jungle Fever Bill Duke's Rage in Harlem there's good movies there's not movies Boys in the Hood played out of competition I mean obviously there's other stuff like that but it was in uncertain regarding

3:00:35David Sims:Thumb and Louise was the closing film it was a good year

3:00:38Griffin Newman:but it's not a lineup where you're like oh damn it's a lineup where you look at it you're like well Barton Fink is the best movie of these times

3:00:44David Sims:no we should acknowledge that Polanski was the head of the jury it was and this is a very Polanski inspired film and I think it's part of why there was this backlash but it was a unanimous

3:00:52Griffin Newman:jury victory yes it was But giving it the three categories. Lars von Trier said thanks very much to the midget and to the rest of the jury, insulting Polanski. That's weird.

3:01:02David Sims:That guy never says off-the-cuff stuff at the Cannes Film Festival.

3:01:05Griffin Newman:Film got made$6 million in America, released by Fox, which means, of course, Barton Fink will be in Avengers Doomsday. He's joining the cast.

3:01:16David Sims:He's going to be one of the Spider-Man villains. You hear the strains of Carter Burwell's score as the camera pans over.

3:01:23Griffin Newman:It got very good reviews and three Oscar nominations, but certainly was most more polarizing, I would say. Yeah.

3:01:31David Sims:I mean, this is the rude era of Totoro kind of being snubbed for this. And then Quiz Show really is what should have been his like makeup nomination. And in both cases of these movies, there's kind of like the surprise. Oh, they nominated this other guy instead. They nominated Michael Lerner instead of John Goodman. And they nominated Paul Schofield instead of Totoro.

3:01:55Griffin Newman:Rosenbaum and Hoberman, two of the great critics of their era, both hated it. Yeah. And sort of, Hoberman sort of is, they both have this kind of like, what is this, Cohen's self-hating Jew shit? You know, they're both like picking at that very early on, which to me, again, I'm like, get over it. And to be clear, I deeply respect those men and they inspired me to the work that I do.

3:02:15David Sims:But I think they're looking at it the wrong way. The thing that always happens with sort of prodigiously talented filmmakers, which is like, oh, we get it. You know how to make a movie. The craft is impeccable. Right. But is that all this is? Some like whiz-bang contraption? Some like construction to impress us with your like knowledge of the medium? And it still happens to this day. It always happens when people come out of the gate hot and they have a couple successes in a row and there starts to be a dialogue of like, are these people starting to make the case for entering the Pantheon? there is always a percentage of the critical community even more so now that it's just open to the fucking internet and social media arms who just go like i need to take this guy down we cannot put this new person on the same tier as like it is established masters a lot this year and yet to your point when you're like i feel like they are the greatest living filmmakers not you because you have always been so open with us but like increasingly over the last four or five years, we will hear about filmmakers we admire who listen to the podcast.

3:03:21David Sims:And we're like, holy shit, that person listens. That is crazy. And we get in touch with them in the way we get in touch with you. Part of it's the show's gotten bigger. They're more worried about there being more ears on it. But people will say, like, I kind of feel uncomfortable coming on and talking about someone else's work. Sure. I don't want to shit on stuff. And the flip side is I don't want to, like, call dibs on a big movie because i'm expecting your guests want to hear an alex ross perry style 20 page horror syllabus and if i don't know the whole movie backwards and forward should i come on right it has been interesting and who knows this is early in the series and things can change but we've like circled back to filmmakers who have been weary for the last couple of years and a lot of them are like oh i'll do the cohen's they want to jump in there is because because they're unimpeachably great no one i think really yeah you can't say like i i i'm looking down on this movie they are endlessly talkable movies open to like endless interpretations and it also feels like even though they are still alive and still working whether separately or together they are on a different tier it feels like they're basically accepted as like living masters now they're in the pantheon right for sure not contemporaries in a way before we play the

3:04:32Griffin Newman:box office game we must acknowledge that jokingly or not the cohen's did to josh horowitz bring up the idea of old fink yes a sort of semi-jokey sequel uh where they were kind of like he's in his it's the 60s he's you know he's he's teaching at a liberal arts college teaching at berkeley and uh he ratted on everyone to huac and he like uh totoro has said like i'm down i right we have

3:05:02David Sims:talked about it at least jokingly about 15 years ago both parties said we can't make it until he's

3:05:08Griffin Newman:a little older right now to turro is having not that to turro is never not having a moment but he is having a bit of a moment from severance uh the cohen's it's time to get back together there's multiple things where they've been like let's make a sequel but they're kidding

3:05:23David Sims:but this is the only one i'd actually want to see like to turro of course made his own weird Big Lebowski side cool that no one was asking for.

3:05:32Griffin Newman:Well, but that also was one of those projects that they would kind of joke about.

3:05:37David Sims:Right.

3:05:37Griffin Newman:And the answer was, eh, we weren't really asking for this.

3:05:40David Sims:Right. Old Fink feels like a real movie. That doesn't feel like a dumb pitch. I think it's why everyone goes like, are they just fucking with us because they have a tendency to fuck with the public in that way. Right.

3:05:52Griffin Newman:Yeah. So anyway, that's out there. Yeah.

3:05:55David Sims:Who knows?

3:05:56Griffin Newman:Yeah. But like I'm saying, Tutorials hot right now. Irv, we're all obsessed with Irv. I mean, they are very perverse, right? That's another thing I love about them. They got sex stuff going on? I remember before I really knew their work that well, like reading a foreword to maybe it was that screenplay, but written by their editor. And I didn't know that they worked together under an assumed name.

3:06:21David Sims:Roderick Jaynes. Yeah, Roderick Jaynes. And Roderick Jaynes was kind of dumping on, like damning with faint praise and being a bit anti-Semitic. Right, they created this fake character. One of their movies, there's a commentary track where they hired an actor to play Roderick Jaynes, I think. Oh, yeah. I think it was the... Blood Simple recut. The director's cut of Blood Simple. And Jaynes talks about how it's better because there's less boring stuff in it. Right. That's the rare director's cut that is shorter because they went back to their first film and were like, we were fucking idiots. We know how to make this better.

3:06:54David Sims:No.

3:06:54Griffin Newman:They famously, who knows if it's true or not, when they got nominated as Roderick James for Fargo, we might bring this up on the Fargo episode, they were like, what do we do? Yeah. Like, Roderick James has been nominated for an Oscar and they wanted to dress up Albert Finney in like a weird costume and have him be Roderick James, but then they didn't go through with it. Yeah. But anyway.

3:07:13David Sims:Do you remember when Adaptation was nominated and they were presenting the nominees and they actually showed two Charlie Kaufmans on the screen? They created a graphic. God bless. Oh, wait, that was my year. Yeah. Yeah, you were nominated. Who did you guys lose to? The piano. The pianist. The pianist, sorry. The pianist, not the piano. Yes, the pianist. That is somewhat of a surprising win. Funny to imagine, though, in the same category, there is like Chris and Paul White showing two real brothers and Charlie and Donald Kaufman showing a fake brother.

3:07:41Griffin Newman:It's funny because, right, people thought The Hours or Chicago would be. They definitely thought The Hours. I tell you who thought The Hours was going to be. David Hare. Because he won everything up until that point. He had a Judy Davis moment. Right. And, right, adaptation. about a boy, the two best nominees in that category were probably kind of a pleasure to be nominated or whatever. Well, absolutely. And then the pianist won and that was the first sign of like, oh, this is, oh shit. You know, and then it won two other big awesomeness.

3:08:11David Sims:There was a wild energy to that night where for like three minutes you were like, the pianist is winning Best Picture. And it was shocking almost that it swung back to the presumed front. And the guy gets up there and he's like,

3:08:22Griffin Newman:hey, Chicago. And you're like, I mean, Chicago's a B plus. All right. I guess let's go home. A bunch of people gyrating in lingerie. How dare you? Chicago is pretty good. I think Adaptation should have won that year. Well, it wasn't nominated, so that was the biggest. For screenplay, you're saying? Oh, for screenplay. It would be an amazing, obviously, but for Best Adapted Screenplay, Adaptation winning would have been pretty cool. They've given it about Adaptation. It's freaking great. He wins two years later for Eternal Sunshine, another good movie. Also very good. No, that's also the year that Almodovar wins original screenplay, which was also surprising.

3:08:55Griffin Newman:because they didn't give him

3:08:58David Sims:Spain didn't nominate his movie

3:08:59Griffin Newman:Spain had not submitted him for foreign film because Spain gets in weird fights with him but then he got the surprise writing and directing incredible movie one of his best movies but then him winning was still shocking he did beat out Todd Haynes which was a little sad because that was probably Haynes' shot yeah who are the other three Gangs of New York which was probably not going to win Cox, Zaley and Linergan most adaptation yeah Ichimama Tambien which was like a great nom I guess that was Gaines was a original this is original this is what I'm saying Gaines was classified as original because the book it's based on is a big fact book and I guess they pulled so much from different areas they made a lot of shit I've read that book My Big Fact Requesting Nia Vardala which I think there was some thought of like will that will that get a win to acknowledge the like triumph of this movie but then I think everyone was like let's not be crazy like come on take it easy not that big this film came out August 23rd, 1991.

3:09:57Griffin Newman:Seasonally appropriate in terms of you want it to be muggy. Yes. But not really when you want to release this movie. I don't know when you release this movie, but these days would probably be more of a fall award contender.

3:10:07David Sims:I guess they were just fucking hot off the cans heat. They were like, let's strike while the iron's muggy.

3:10:12Griffin Newman:Canned heat. It's opening a limited release, obviously, so it's not in our top 10. Number one at the box office, I'm sure Ben's seen it. I'm sure Griffin's seen it. perhaps Chris has seen it it's a satirical

3:10:23David Sims:film but you jump to Ben first you think this is in the Hosley canon maybe satirical 1991 a spoof of you know famous Hollywood movies

3:10:34Griffin Newman:of the time is it Hot Shots Part 2 it's Hot Shots oh the first one I've never seen the first one that doesn't surprise me either much like Under Siege and you know whatever you got the sequel a lot because it was on TV more

3:10:50David Sims:I definitely watched Part 2 many, many times. And then I was like, if this is Part 2, I can't imagine how good the first one is. That's going to be one half is good. I had not seen Top Gun. Sure. And Hot Shots Part 2 is pulling in like 80 things. It's making fun of everything.

3:11:05Griffin Newman:Hot Shots 1 is just a Top Gun. And I was like, I don't get any of this. Oh, sure. Hot Shots, it's pretty funny. I watched the first one recently. It's funny. But 2 is better. Yeah. Well, 2 is a little more like, let's just be ridiculous, I feel like.

3:11:17David Sims:It's a garbage plate.

3:11:18Griffin Newman:Right.

3:11:19David Sims:In a good way.

3:11:20Griffin Newman:Number two at the box office Chris you don't care about hot shots I haven't seen it Number two is a rom-com Movie star I guess rom-com It's not a bad movie It's alright

3:11:35David Sims:It's a movie star rom-com It's kind of a classic formula It's 1991 it's a classic formula You know

3:11:41Griffin Newman:It's got a bit of a TV vibe to it It could happen to you No but which is kind of an interesting movie Yeah it is kind of an interesting movie No You know it's a What if a big shot Kind of got taken down a peg You know Big city small town movie Oh it's not Doc Hollywood It's Michael J. Fox And Doc Hollywood Yeah Wow Doc Hollywood Not a fun movie It's just the classic Like what if a big shot's car Broke down In a small town Right That's Preston Sturgis You can do it with lawyer You can do it with anything But this time It's big shot doctor Ten years later And he's got to become Like the community doctor To like earn his way out of 10 years later, they cracked the code and they said, wait a second.

3:12:21Griffin Newman:I don't know. It doesn't. There's a, it makes sense. Don't worry. It's like cars is Doc Hollywood. You're fucking stepping on. Oh, I'm sorry.

3:12:27David Sims:The joke I was going to tee up. I was going to say that 15 years later, they finally cracked the formula and said, get rid of the guy. Just make it. Car breaks down.

3:12:35Griffin Newman:It's like he crashes into a fence and they're like, you have to be a doctor for 30 hours of community service to make back the cost of the fence. The first cars is so one-to-one Doc Hollywood. It's insane. You know what, Ben? And he kind of learns that like life at a slower pace with sort of like, you know, more sort of down to earth folk. Some appeal. Because, you know, who plays. Before he was a guy in Hollywood who had sunglasses and he might kind of like look down the sunglasses, perhaps at a lady. And he would be in a rush. He's in a rush. He's got a cell phone.

3:13:05David Sims:But this is why cars are so smart because what's faster than a race car? The ultimate rush. Woody Harrelson basically plays the mater in that movie.

3:13:13Griffin Newman:Yes. Woody Harrelson is the folk scene. Who's the love interest? It's Julie Warner. Julie Warner. Who is playing sort of the Sally Carrere. Right. Did not have a gigantic career.

3:13:22David Sims:Who's the Doc Hudson in that picture?

3:13:25Griffin Newman:David Argensteyers. Oh, of course. Who's fun. It's a fun movie. It's a classic TV movie. Who would you say is the Sarge in the film?

3:13:30David Sims:Moving on to the third film. Who's the role?

3:13:32Griffin Newman:We've covered a very popular action film. It's been out for two months. It's a sequel. We certainly have.

3:13:37David Sims:Is it Terminator 2 Judgment Day? That's correct.

3:13:39Griffin Newman:Yeah, good movie.

3:13:40David Sims:The highest grossing film of it's here. That is a good movie.

3:13:41Griffin Newman:Number four at the box office is a movie I have vaguely heard of. It stars an Oscar winner. It's a drama. I think it's based loosely on like a real guy's memoir. He would have won in the 80s. Yeah, probably the last five or six years. But I think his career is starting to curdle. Okay. Famously, a bit of a tough cookie, this actor.

3:14:04David Sims:This actor is a bit of a tough cookie. Oh, I feel like I know. What is it? If you guess this movie. No, I can't guess the movie, but is it George C. Scott?

3:14:12Griffin Newman:No, no. George C. Scott. He's already. No, he's with us. I'm gone by then. No, no, no. George C. Scott's still with us, I think.

3:14:18David Sims:Yeah, George C. Scott. His final film is Angus, which is later.

3:14:23Griffin Newman:He died in 1999. No, no. This is an actor. He was a huge asshole. I mean, but he was a big movie star. He was a good actor. Not Dreyfus, but you're close. Who's the other one? It's not Dreyfus. It's not Hackey. Who's the other Oscar winner from that era? Who is a huge asshole? It's not John Voight. No. uh who's oh is it william hurt yes a man robbed of the opportunity to play the red hulk by mortality poor mr hurt and that's right i'm gonna keep bringing up the red hulk you can't stop me the film is the film is called the listeners what i got you for your birthday you got me a it's sort of like a pez dispenser but for lollipops in the shape of the red hulk it's like a lollipop protector it's a plastic red hulk i guess so it's like you could do a A little lollipop and then like right store it away.

3:15:05David Sims:I'm just mindful you love sucking on a lolly but your least favorite part is that once you start you can't stop. There's no pause points. So true. And I said what if the skull of the Rolk we've been recording for so long could protect your lolly. The film is called The Doctor. It's a birthday present. You still haven't said thank you.

3:15:20Griffin Newman:Thank you. Oh you're welcome. I definitely said thank you. It came from the heart. You were pretty drunk

3:15:24David Sims:I gave it to you. Oh no I gave it to you

3:15:25Griffin Newman:during the day. I wasn't drunk. And I wasn't even that drunk in my birthday dress. How long were we running then? Are we heading for record territory? Gentleman's 310. It's a long time. Yeah, we're getting there. The film is called The Doctor. Has anyone heard of this film? No. It plays like a doctor. Never heard of that. What's it about? What if there was? Fucking doctor. It's got William Hurt, Christine Lottie, Tinkins there.

3:15:46David Sims:Okay.

3:15:47Griffin Newman:Perk Inns, Elizabeth that is. Oh. Adam Arkin. Yeah. I don't know. Whatever. It's a movie. It's one of those things where it's like, the movie got fine reviews and made$40 million. and you're like, $40 million for a movie I've never heard of that's clearly stupid?

3:16:03David Sims:In 1991. I've been going through this thing where like, fucking, I watched all the vacation movies because of doing European vacation with heckling, right? I didn't, I hadn't watched the Goldstein Daily when we had recorded that episode, watched it after the fact. What'd you think? I thought it was okay.

3:16:17Griffin Newman:I really think the first 20 minutes you're like, hell yeah, this is funny. And then you just kind of lose it.

3:16:23David Sims:There's stuff. It's wonky. And it's emblematic of a crisis point for studio live action films. And I think of that movie as being seen as a big disappointment and like a big failure. And then you look up what it made. And then you look at it and you're like, it made a fucking$150 million worldwide? Not bad. People were like pulling their hair out of the fact it only ended up at like 67 domestic or whatever. Number five at the box office

3:16:43Griffin Newman:is a neo-noir thriller. It is a director who we could cover, but he's made a lot of movies at this point. Friedkin? No. Friedkin's dead, so he can't make any more movies. This guy's alive and well.

3:16:57David Sims:Oh, oh, oh. Well, it's not Soderbergh.

3:16:59Griffin Newman:No, not that on your career. Not Adrian Lyne. The fact that it's a neo-noir is a bit of a trick.

3:17:07David Sims:That's not his main turf.

3:17:08Griffin Newman:No, it's his second film.

3:17:10David Sims:Huh.

3:17:10Griffin Newman:And I do feel like it's him being like, hey, I got more in me than what you think I do. But he did make a lot of more epic costumey stuff.

3:17:19David Sims:Interesting. But he...

3:17:20Griffin Newman:He's also an actor and he's also the star of this film. Not Ron Howard.

3:17:23David Sims:He made too many films at this point. He's also the star of this movie. He sure is. And he's made a lot of them. It's not a Clint Eastwood, obviously. He's an actor, director, who's made a lot of movies. That's interesting. Because a lot of these guys were throwing out direct infrequently.

3:17:39Griffin Newman:He, in the 2020s, has already made four movies, and he's got another one coming. And does he still star in most of them, or does he mostly step back? He is pulling back on starring in all of them. He did recently make a franchise for himself. He did recently? that he is the star of and he made three movies. He recently made a... This is mine, Ben. And he directed all of those? He sure did. Who is this guy? You know him. You love him. He recently won an Academy Award. He recently won an Academy Award. Hollywood's highest honor.

3:18:11David Sims:Lead or support it?

3:18:13Griffin Newman:Screenplay.

3:18:14David Sims:It's Kenneth Branagh?

3:18:16Griffin Newman:Kenneth Branagh. And it's dead again? The film is dead again with Emma Thompson. this is a perfect example

3:18:23David Sims:a really good movie

3:18:24Griffin Newman:like a really fun super fun movie fun early 90s thriller

3:18:27David Sims:that is a perfect example of everything you just described you're like this is impossible no one possibly fulfills all the repercussions you're throwing at the craziest thing is that Bran is like

3:18:36Griffin Newman:I'm going to direct my ass off and it's like and by the way I'm sneaking in those Poirot movies and guess who the star is you'll look at him by the way very nice man incredible amount of energy as well clearly he's like fucking five movies Yeah, you see Tenet, him doing those monologues?

3:18:55David Sims:He's great. Do you know he was directing two Perrault's while filming Tenet? While doing Tenet? Like mid-take.

3:19:00Griffin Newman:When he's doing phone calls, right? He's like a... He's got like a little longer... He's having to the nile of scenes and he's cut around it. Venice needs to be more haunted. I'll talk to you in 10 minutes. Dead again. Fun movie. Other movies in the top 10. We've got the Jean-Claude Van Damme twin picture double impact, which I've never seen.

3:19:20David Sims:Me neither.

3:19:21Griffin Newman:Bet you it's good. We've got the Mickey Rourke sort of tail end of his movie star career,

3:19:28David Sims:Harley Davidson and the Marlboro Man. He always cites that as the movie that single-handedly killed his career, to which I would say I think there were a couple steps in that process.

3:19:36Griffin Newman:Yeah, there's a behavior as well that you might want to point to.

3:19:39David Sims:One bad movie and suddenly people stop picking up the phone. Maybe you were like, also the punches you were throwing.

3:19:46Griffin Newman:There is Robin Hood, Prince of Thieves, another big hit of that year. there's a comedy I've never heard of called Pure Luck starring Martin Short and Danny Glover yes wow it's a cop comedy

3:19:56David Sims:it's a French director who basically had a bit of a Barton Fink experience and has spent the last 25 years 30 years being like this is why Hollywood is bad relating everything back to her experience I make my film Pure Luck no one understands yes I believe it's a buddy cop movie yeah looks like it or Glover's a cop Glover's a cop for sure and Martin Short's like a suspect or a witness or whatever He's a psychologist. But the whole thing is that he's got like cosmically bad look. That like cartoonishly bad things keep happening.

3:20:28Griffin Newman:Uh-oh. Number 10 at the box office is a film called Defenseless. What is that?

3:20:34David Sims:No idea.

3:20:35Griffin Newman:1991 film called Defenseless, directed by Martin Campbell, starring Barbara Hershey and Sam Shepard. Legal thriller. Okay. I don't know. Got bad reviews. Because you need a defense. Yeah. Legal defense. If you are defenseless. But if you're in love, and you're defenseless against someone's charms.

3:20:51David Sims:Stakes are high. Yeah, very good. All done.

3:20:53Griffin Newman:Gotta pee again, because we've recorded for so long.

3:20:56David Sims:I need to pee as well, and I've just been holding it in, and I'm not looking for applause. I just want people to know that. Chris, anything else? Let me see. Do I have anything to add? No. I'm just really glad to be back on the main feed. I just feel like you go through these cycles. And by the way, always happy to receive these texts and give you pep talks. which are often just like, Chris, you're a good guy and you do good work. This industry is frustrating. I don't think you should give up. But you will go through these cycles and they will both be in terms of like the nature of the industry and your experiences working on things.

3:21:35David Sims:But also you have one of the strongest moral backbones of anyone I know. I truly mean that. And you often will just text and be like, I am just so disgusted by like this behavior I'm seeing. or this attitude or this thing. And I just don't know if I want to be around these people. I want to be in Hollywood, but not of it, if possible. But yeah, let me see. Actually, I think I've been in kind of a meta cycle of like 15 years-ish kind of in the wilderness in a way of like trying to react to that, you know, kind of devastating experience of the Golden Compass and kind of always sort of hyper-correcting in some other weird way.

3:22:16And the one movie that I really think, like, that is a good movie, is A Better Life. Yeah. The movie that Demi Bichita starred in, which is unfortunately still relevant. And I'm like, okay, okay, that was a good one. That was a good one.

3:22:29David Sims:But I mean, I love Operation Finale. Thank you very much. You, it is part of what is so unique and fascinating about your exact position is you, like, have spent the last 15 years in a very successful wilderness. Funk. Right. Like, you know, but it's it speaks to the weird reality of this industry of like you constantly are like looking in the mirror and going like, what am I doing? And yet from the outside, because I know you're a real person who just like the mere kind of credits or like box office numbers does not make you feel good. It's right. You're striving for things and you have things you want to say and whatever.

3:23:07David Sims:But it's like that that this is an industry that can make you feel like a failure when you're a success. It is kind of funny. And that forces failures to pretend they're successes, you know? Right. No, it is kind of funny that way. And I, yeah, yeah, it's very strange. I think what I've come to is that in order to actually do the thing that I want to do, whatever that may be, it's probably going to be independent and very small scale. And actually, you know, I had a call with Alex Ross Perry the other day. He's very kind about this in terms of sort of who I only know via blank check. So there's this kind of blank check extended.

3:23:42I remember Matt when we did the commentary.

3:23:46David Sims:We're leaving from doing the Rogue One commentary. And I didn't get to play the keep role playing game, which was a bummer. Someday. Yeah, someday we'll get it back together. He's someone I'm also having these fucking text conversations with all the time where we're just like, we feel like we missed the industry. Like it's like the fucking Sopranos thing. Like you ever feel like you got in too late? Yeah. Like the best of it was over, right? Well, you want to go back to the studio system. Clearly. Apparently. Yeah. I just want the trains running on time. I'd like to go to the 70s, maybe. That's where I really want to be.

3:24:17David Sims:I would say that was right. That was a more exciting time. I think that was the absolute right balance between the two extreme poles of what the industry has been. Yeah. And there was a little bit of the best of both worlds. But it is, I mean, I talk about this with, like, all of my friends of sort of my generation, where it's just like, we feel like we got in just in time to watch it all get gutted. That the dream jobs we thought we were aspiring to, not even could we not get them, but they stopped existing. Well, but, you know, I take a lot of energy from you guys and from this podcast, I got to say.

3:24:50Griffin Newman:All right, that's enough. We don't need any praise. You don't want to hear this. Our heads need deflating. No, but it's a decade of dreams. And it's time for the members of your extended family to come back and attest to. Well, you're welcome back anytime. Anytime. Thank you very much. And hopefully you come back sooner. I would like to very much

3:25:10David Sims:did you notice by the way oh he saw it the application to retire bit is up on the wall although I do feel like I still feel really guilty about that but we had to I think I couldn't come up with any more cool shit for Night Eggs I was dancing as fast as I could there were rumblings that Night Eggs might be going back redevelopment yeah we'll see but I think it was a good time to put it down and we could always pick it back up when the time comes. Yeah, with the proper formalities. Chris, I believe by the time this episode comes out, the full season of Murderbot will be out in Europe. August 3rd.

3:25:49August 3rd, it will have already been seen, but binge away, please. I really like it. I think it's good.

3:25:57David Sims:You very kindly invited Ben Nye to the premiere. And David. But I knew that he was going to meet him. You know what's a crazy decade of dreams thing? When we met you You had three kids And David had zero Now he's caught up Catching up Dead time Well I know David Is really against

3:26:15Griffin Newman:The great replacement You know I had a dinner With you and your Wonderful wife And Griffin Like the day Or the day before I was getting sleep Training my first child Yeah And it's a dinner That really lives In my memory Because it was also No I'm serious Because it was also An early like COVID Like it's like I hadn't had dinner With people much Like it was like

3:26:35David Sims:That was maybe my first dinner after having my fucking gallbladder surgery. That's right. Your gallbladder was in the news. It was the first night out, I remember, where it's like, I can eat a variety of foods again. And the other big thing I remember that night was I was waiting to get a message back from my doctor about whether or not I was allowed to drink alcohol yet. And did the word come in? It didn't. And I was like fucking white knuckling. and I was like, I can't, like, four more days before my system can process it. Oh, man. Yeah, look at all the decades, decades, decades, look at the time.

3:27:12David Sims:But people should watch Murderbot. Ben and I got to see the first two episodes. It's very, I feel like it exists on a bit of a Verhoeven continuum, but with maybe a little bit of that Weitz Brothers feeling, a little bit more of that heart. It does have some heart. Ascarzy is very good in it. He's quite excellent in it. And I will say this, he's a pretty good looking guy. He's fairly good looking. It was pretty absurd to watch him on a big screen and then see him in person and be like, both make me feel like a piece of shit. He is a specimen. Yeah. We must be done.

3:27:45Griffin Newman:All right. This is in the top 10 longest episodes. Hell yeah. Yes. I don't like that that's not he's so happy. I actually think that the fans appreciate it. I love this movie and I want it a long episode. And that's who we do it for.

3:27:58David Sims:we do it for the common people. It's podcasting of the people. For you, Don, the working stiff out there. Chris, thank you for being here. Thank you. Look forward to having me on again much sooner. Come back, everybody. Thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate, review, and subscribe. Tune in next week for Bargo. Or no, I'm sorry, the Hot Sucker Proxy. My favorite. With guests 2BD. Yeah. And as always, we're just looking for a little bit of that Blink Check feeling.

3:28:32Griffin Newman:Blank Check with Griffin and David is hosted by Griffin Newman and David Sims. Our executive producer is me, Ben Hosley.

3:28:39David Sims:Our creative producer is Marie Barty Salinas. And our associate producer is AJ McKeon. This show is mixed and edited by AJ McKeon and Alan Smithy. Research by J.J.

3:28:50Griffin Newman:Birch. Our theme song is by Lane Montgomery and the Great American Novel. With additional music by Alex Mitchell. Artwork by Joe Bowen, Ollie Moss, and Pat Reynolds. Our production assistant is Minnick. Special thanks to David Cho, Jordan Fish, and Nate Patterson for their production help. Head over to blankcheckpod.com for links to all of the real nerdy shit. Join our Patreon, Blank Check Special Features, for exclusive franchise commentaries and bonus episodes. Follow us on social at blankcheckpod. Subscribe to our weekly newsletter, Checkbook, on Substack. This podcast is created and produced by Blank Check Productions.