Critical Darlings: The Secret Agent And The Increasingly International Academy

29:14it's worth seeing. It's in theaters. It's in theaters. It's great to go to a theater. It's in theaters. We love that Mubi puts Mubis in theaters before ultimately ending up on their wonderful platform. Dang right. I'm just looking at some of the stuff they got right now. Die My Love, of course. Yeah. An important watch, a necessary watch for any blankie. La Grazia, La Grazia, the new Paolo Sorrentino movie, which I missed in theaters. Good moment to catch up with it. The Great Shall We Dance. Oh. The classic? The original. Oh, my goodness. That's fun. Like a restoration? Yeah. And look what they got a collection called Heartthrob Nicolas Cage.

29:52It's young, dreamy Cage. Wow. Still dreaming to me? Hey. You're very open-hearted. Anyway, to stream the best of cinema, you can try MUBI free for 30 days at MUBI.com slash blankcheck. That's MUBI.com slash blankcheck for a whole month of great cinema for free. And then go see My Father's Shadow in theaters. Please, thank you for listening. Thank you. Thank you for your attention to this matter. Thank you. Very kind.

30:22So something I have always wondered about or been confused by is the process by which a film becomes an international nomination because it's different. It sort of seems like there's a Eurovision sort of situation where countries submit films. But you can apparently submit a film that's not from your country because it was just an accident. Was it the French? Yeah, it was the French. How does all of this work? So what happens is there's a Japanese lightning gun named Raiden. And he'll travel around and recruit various movies to compete against you. He's really busy. Like that time of year, he's just zapping around.

30:59I always see him like drunk at like can parties. It's really embarrassing. You're like, you need a vacation now. Yeah, it'll just zap away. No, I mean, it is up to the discretion of each country. Some of the selection committees, I think, are much more tied to the government than in some countries it's more independent. I mean, obviously, they are in some way affiliated with the government because the film is representing that country. To the extent that when, like, Almodovar won, like, Spain got that Oscar, he didn't get that Oscar, even though he held it on stage. but I think it really depends on the country in terms of it's oftentimes very political there was that thing a couple years ago where there was a film from India called All We Imagine Is Light that was at Cannes a few years ago it performed very well at Cannes which is somewhat rare for an Indian film the knock against it from people who are much more closely associated with the Indian film industry is like well it played well at Cannes because it plays like a western movie like it has this similar style to like a French indie that you might see at Cannes.

32:00It's kind of dreamy and sort of, it has, it uses more Western film grammar. And then the Indian, the board in India that would select what gets submitted to the Oscars picked a different film that they said in a statement better reflects India. And everyone was outraged because this female directed movie that everyone had loved at Cannes, that a lot of Western people really loved, was not chosen as the selection. And they said, well, that's so stupid because it would have gotten nominated and that would have been huge for India. But in that case, the board of people deciding that didn't really care if it affected their Oscar chances.

32:34Would that other film have been still eligible for Best Picture? Oh, yeah. Yeah, very much so. It's just that one category that has this kind of weird submission process that a lot of people think should be done away with. They've made some effort to correct it, where they do like the long list thing now. They just, because it used to just be, is there a French film? It's getting nominated. And now that's changed a bit. Like they've tried to diversify um what movies these not you know the nominating people are seeing um but in the case of a movie like uh it was just an accident this year or um seed of the sacred fig another iranian film that went through germany uh on you know in its oscar campaign um a country can if there is some connection i believe uh it was just an accident had some french financing and and and And Seed of Sacred Fig, Mohamed Rasuloff, the director of that, was living in exile in Germany at the time.

33:29And so there was a connection enough to the country that they were like, our stuff is not that good. We'll just do this. And it's political goodwill. Yeah. It's also, there's so much politicking. I mean, like, famously, a few years ago, France did not pick Anatomy of a Fall, right? Which did go on to get, like, a Best Picture and Best Director nomination. And won a screenplay. Yeah. They chose the taste of things instead. which is, you know, with Juliette Binoche. It was a movie I also really liked, but that caused a minor controversy. People thought it was because Justin Trie had criticized Macron in his speech, I believe.

34:07Like, people were kind of, like, pinning that. I mean, it was also, like, Anatomy of All is in a mix of languages, including English, which kind of, like, raises a question about, like, whether it has to be a certain percentage of not in the English language. Yeah. But I think also then, according to a friend of mine, that led to a lot of voters feeling like they shouldn't vote for Taste of Things, especially in Europe. Which sucks, because that movie was good. But that because they felt like it was, you know, they had to kind of punish France. And so there's all kinds of politicking behind the scenes.

34:41Yeah. So it is Eurovision. It is Eurovision. It is Eurovision, yeah. Absolutely. Look, imagine this. And I'm saying imagine it for different administrations. Imagine if the U.S. had to do this. Like for like if the Oscars were not American. Let's say the Oscars happen every year in Amsterdam. And we're trying to get American movies like attention and it's hard to get. Imagine the Trump administration. What movie? I mean they would be picking. They'd be like can we do Sound of Freedom for the fourth year in a row? Yeah. Or whatever. Of course. Yeah, yeah. Or like Brett Ratner's Rush Hour 4 would definitely be that when that gets made.

35:15Yeah. I mean, I was thinking about the year India chose last film show for their submission, which did not. It got shortlisted. It did not get far. And it's fine. But it was like one of that year there were, I think, a bunch of kind of like starry-eyed films about film and the magic of movies. Right. And you're like, yeah, you can see them being like, this is what we got to do to get it. We got it. Yeah. Yeah. And so when they're submitting a film, do they tend to go more political or artier? It can be all over the place. I mean, I think it's always interesting to look at what China submits now, especially recently.

35:59China has increasingly had its own enormously homegrown kind of blockbuster, world of blockbusters that make enormous amounts of money. and sometimes when you look at earlier you have films from like Jang Yimou you have films you know from these different filmmakers whose films played really well on the international circuit and like in more recent years these have just all been like some of which are just like yes like big blockbusters like The Wandering Earth 2 you know was their submission a few years ago Wolf Warrior 2 like a super nationalistic like action movie there almost is this like fuck you like we don't need to play by your game anymore.

36:40It doesn't matter. Alternatively, so over the weekend, I saw Kukuho, the... What did you call me?

36:50The Japanese submission for Best Foreign Film that also did get a Best Makeup Oscar. And that movie, which is like Kabuki, Star is Born sort of thing, makes a lot of sense because it's about this sort of Japanese cultural heritage. And then in 2021, they submitted Drive My Car, which won. Yeah. And which got a Best Picture nomination as well. Yeah. I mean, there is an interesting tension always between... I mean, Kokuho was like a very successful film in Japan, like an enormous hit. But yeah, it also feels like it is very much showcasing an idea of Japanese-ness that, you know, should be pretty clear to audiences about.

37:35And we should look to what the Japanese government is right now and versus what it was during the drive my car year. Like the administration's changed. It's become a bit more conservative. And, you know, and I think that the one heartening thing about this Byzantine kind of like process with the different countries having their own agendas is that for many, many, many years, that was the only route that a non-English language, non-American or British film really had toward the kind of awards attention that, yes, can lead to financial and, you know, success, all that. increasingly these movies now are like well actually with 10 best picture nominees to fill like we could actually get them it's okay if they don't get not their country doesn't submit them because maybe they'll do well anyway you know and obviously Parasite broke the dam in terms of being the first international film to win best picture ever I did a rough tally if anyone's curious of and I could be wrong because I might have missed something here or there.

38:39But I only went back to the 70s. In the 70s, there were two non-English language films nominated for Best Picture. Both Swedish, right? Both Swedish. Yeah, Cry's Whispers. Cry's Whispers. None in the 80s. Not a single one. And granted, this was back when there were only five Best Picture nominees for any given year. 95 had two in Il Postino, which was sort of a sentimental hit. And obviously a formative Clockwork Orange-style viewing experiment for me. Life is Beautiful, obviously, which did win some things. Crouching Tiger in 2000. So then we're in the 2000s or the aughts. Crouching Tiger. And then 2006 has two that I think are sort of like nebulous.

39:23One is Letters from Iwo Jima, which is in Japanese and stars Japanese actors, but it's directed by Clint Eastwood. And it's a Hollywood production. So like that's kind of dubious. But that same year is also Babel, which is a big international co-production with some big movie stars in it and Brad Pitt and Cate Blanchett and then, you know, other segments that are not in English. The Artist in 2011, also kind of dubious. Yeah, yeah. Because it's a Harvey Weinstein production, but it's French filmmakers. But also it's silent for the most part. Yeah. And then something changes in 2012, and this is around when they start expanding the Best Picture, you know.

39:58Yeah, it was at 2010 was when they announced they were expanding, right? Yeah. So Amour, the Michael Haneke film about dementia that is one of the most harrowing movies you could ever sit through, but also beautiful. That broke through and got a Best Picture nomination, a Best Director nomination, and a Best Actress nomination. Then Roma happened, which again, Netflix, it's a little bit whatever, but that is, you know, a Mexican production. Parasite wins in 2019. In the 2020s, things have picked up, you know, if you think about it, the 80s had zero. In the 2020s alone, you could count Minari by some extent.

40:30Drive My Car, big, big one. Two in 2022, which were All Quiet on the Western Front and Triangle of Sadness, some in English, but not an American production. Anatomy of a Fall, which won a screenplay Oscar. Amelia Perez, which is winning all this year's Oscars as well as last year's. And I'm Still Here. So that was two in the Best Picture lineup in 2024. And we have two this year in Secret Agent and Sentimental Value. So things seem to be progressing. Only Parasite has won, but it's still great that all of these movies and more in other categories are like part of the party now. Yeah. And I think, you know, we can't talk about this without noting that at this point, the Academy is, I think, like a quarter international, like in terms of where they're based.

41:11On their mother's side. On their mother's side. And, you know, the Academy has made a really kind of like, like aggressive move to expand its membership, particularly to expand its membership in terms of diversity, which has been long been criticized for. And part of the way it's done that is by becoming more international, which you could speak to another testament to the sad state of America, the American film industry, where they just ran out of kind of people to invite who are not white men, I guess. or um and there has been some criticism that i don't think can be founded in anything but like a feeling right now necessarily um is that for all of the good that making the branch like the academy as a whole more international and that mean that you bring in different filmmakers more exciting films from all over the world is that they these people are also bringing in some other prejudices you know and uh i know one thing that people are concerned about in terms of like the performance of the Nickel Boys or perhaps even Sinners ultimately in March this year is that, like, that stories about Black Americans might not be of interest to, like, 70-year-old French directors who are now part of the Academy, you know, which is, you know, white French directors, I should say, which, like, again, is not based in any fact necessarily, but it's based on sort of lived experience and intuition based on what we know about various other countries' film industries.

42:33Yeah, and I think, you know, it's long been held as a kind of ironclad fact, though it's actually much more complicated than this. Films about characters of color just don't perform as well abroad. I think that the numbers have actually proven that is not the case. But it has long been used, especially with big studio movies, to justify... Not spending on marketing and not... Yeah, exactly. And kind of like not counting on these films, giving them as big a boost as you would a blockbuster starring a white actor. I think about the poster of 12 Years a Slave in which it's just like Brad Pitt is the only character on it.

43:17Yep. Yeah. It's a kind of amazing, famous one. Literally horrifying. Yeah. Well, let's turn our attention to The Secret Agent, a film that... addresses tricky issues of race and class and politics. And yeah, yeah. I mean, it's a really dense movie that Wall of Period piece speaks to the here and now. But I think one of the reasons that I think it is done so well is that it also is this kind of like big swaggering, kind of like, at certain points it's an action movie, at certain points it's a thriller, you know? It's bright, it's colorful. It is, like, yeah. And I think, you know, Griff brought up a great point when we were talking about Marty Supreme, which is like...

43:56We were talking about Marty Serene with Griffin Dunn, though. Yeah. He just always comes by, actually. We're always like, here he is again. Griffin Dunn. Griffin Dunn, if you ever want to come on the podcast, I would love to have you. That, like, this feels like a 70s. It has a bit of this, like, muscular 70s, like, you know, new Hollywood swagger. Like, in terms of not just its setting, you know, and that kind of, like, the really, like, rich, saturated colors that it has that feel like they evoke this over there. And it's amazing. And like, like, it feels there are aspects to it that feel a little bit like the conversation or something like that.

44:30And but also like you watch like Costas Gavris's Z from from that era, like it also has that vibe, which is not American, but like has that fun, shaggy 70s energy that's also sophisticated intellectually and politically. And that's a really interesting heady mix, I think. Yeah. And then, you know, you have Wagner Mora, who I've seen in so many things before. You know, he has been kind of like working in Hollywood, in American productions a lot in more recent years, you know, including, well, he was in Narcos, the Netflix kind of like one of those really big shows. Wasn't there some controversy that a Brazilian was playing famous Colombian Pablo Escobar?

45:09Yeah, that would make sense. Yeah, I think there was a little bit. Some people from Colombia were like, wait a second. Yeah. And then, you know, he was in Civil War. He was in Dope Thief. He's been working a lot. An actor I've always liked. But yeah, when he comes on screen, he gets out of the little yellow, like, VW Beetle in this. In his, like, sandals and his, like, scruff and his, like, polo shirt open to a very 70s length down his chest. I was like, oh, wait. Dr. Moore is, like, the most handsome man alive. He has a, like, safe quality. Like, when he's on screen, I feel safe. Yeah. And I feel calm.

45:43And he so anchors everything in this very chaotic place, both politically, but also in terms of there was just a party happening at all times. And when you're with him, his soft, soothing ASMR voice. No, there's a warmth to him. Yeah. And actually, I think that's what made his performance as Escobar so compelling was because he was really sympathetic. I mean, you know, this man was doing horrible things, but compared to the cops on that show, you're like, but he so has that quality that you're describing. No, he's perfectly cast in this. Yeah. And I mean, I think, like, I was re-watching it, you know, in preparation for this, and there's a little scene where he first, because he's, like, returned to Recife, which is where director Cleber Mendoza Filio is from, and kind of resets all of his movies, aside from Baccarat.

46:33It, he picks up his child, which is the reason, one of the reasons he's come back to his hometown, And he is like driving with his son in the backseat and like listening to his son talk about like Jaws, which he's obsessed with and just like reaches his hand back to like hold his son's hand. And there's something that is just so like very unforcedly just speaks to this enormous affection, you know, that you believe it so much. It does feel, I think a lot of this film feels, and not in a dreamy way, but it feels like it is informed by Filio's memories of this era. A lot of this film is a bit about this child and how much we retain in terms of memory and how much gets lost, especially with no physical records.

47:22I think there is that touch of memory, not in a way that's distant, but in a way that feels warm. Like you're remembering this like warm moment from your childhood. You mentioned the first scene, which I think is so important and is one of these like opening scenes that serves as sort of a metaphor for the film as a whole. Right. In which maybe we should just describe it as like there's a he arrives in this. It's like a little gas station on the road and there's a dead body that's like just there covered by a cardboard box basically. Right. And the cops arrive and it sort of seems like they're going to inspect this body, but instead they just take him down.

48:03They shake him down for a bribe. And you can sort of it's incredibly tense, but is also there's this like unspeakable thing that we cannot speak about that's just in the background. We don't know this guy's name. I think we learned that he's like a thief. Yeah. He tried to rob the station. But otherwise is not a presence in the rest of the film. It's just this kind of thing that hangs over it. Well, there's a lovely image of Maura and this lovely yellow car and this landscape behind him. And then right, you know, 15 feet away is a rotting dead body. And that's the kind of feeling you get. The dogs keep trying to eat.

48:38Yeah, throughout the rest of the film is like, you know, that seems to have been at least in this movie's memory or estimation, like the sort of bizarre juxtaposition of life in parts of Brazil then was like this loveliness, this warmth, this vibrancy, carnivals happening, all this stuff is happening. And yet next door or down the street or right in front of me is this, the rot of government, the violence of government, you know, all this stuff. And, and, um, and, but it's not heavy handed when it does that, which I think is, is, is hard to do. I do think one of the reasons this movie has performed so well, despite not being conventional by any means in the terms of like the path it takes, is that it is about the experience of living under a kind of a dictatorship, right?

49:21Which is to say, these certain things are so fundamentally broken in ways that make life, like, unstable and hard to count on, right? Like, yeah, the police come around, and instead of doing their job, they just, like, shake you down for money. There's just so much naked corruption. Like, what we learn about the main character, whose name is Armando, but goes by Marcelo, or Marcelo, sorry, throughout most of the movie, is that, you know, like, he basically ran into this, like, corrupt businessman who has also, like, had ties, like, very high up to the government, and it basically destroyed his life.

49:58But, like, to show the ways that all of those things are so broken, and at the same time, day-to-day life continues, right? Like, carnival continues. Like, it, like, the bustle outside. People are taking piano lessons. Yeah, people are doing piano lessons. People are going to see Jaws. Yeah, they're going to see Jaws or The Omen, which features in quite significantly— They're recording podcasts about award shows. Exactly. Exactly. And I do think that is part of the reason I think it speaks to people so much, you know. Even as it is, like, a kind of beguilingly weird movie for ways we can get into later, it is about the kind of—the juxtaposition of living under this totally kind of, like— like a government that has like thrown out all of the rules uh you know and i think there's one point where maura's character like is describing what happened to him and he's just so he's not outraged in like a kind of like blistering like angry way he's outraged in that way of just being like i'm so angry that i should have to even find myself in this situation it is so unjust but also so absurd yeah and i think the way that the film is careful to you know we have our hero we have our antagonists, but even those antagonists are given these curious, humanizing anecdotes and vignettes.

51:15And, you know, the young assassin and, you know, his older colleague and these kind of corrupt policemen in town, like, yes, they're bad guys, but also, like, they're also kind of looking out for each other. And they're trying to get by in this horrid system that has sort of put them in this place. I mean, they're feeding off of it certainly more than other people are. But, like, the way that it shows this sort of sprawl of, you know, life during wartime, essentially, like life, you know, that no, very few people involved are these kind of cinematic, monolithic villains. They are people who have been to varying degrees corrupted by something above them.

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54:56It's about something that we can obviously relate to now, but it's also specifically about not only this past military dictatorship, but also the Bolsonaro regime. And Wagner Mora spoke about this when we saw him accept that award. You know, especially given, I think, a certain amount of national envy here about what happened, you know, how the response was to, you know, the Bolsonaro government and like the end of the Bolsonaro government versus, you know, maybe certain more local. I mentioned Aquarius, the first of his films that I saw in 2016 at Cannes, and that is set in the present day with the great Sonia Braga living in Recife.

55:37And that's very much smaller about some basic government officials trying to get her out of her beloved condo or her apartment so they can do some gentrification, redistricting, whatever. um and that you know compared to something like baccarat which is this violent you know sort of like pushback against predacious capitalism and whatever uh and and secret agent which is you know much more forceful in its sort of political you know intent uh aquarius seems sort of quaint and yet that was the movie during the bolsonaro government that had this huge protest at the at the you know i mean it was people were in support of the film but they had you know banners and all this stuff.

56:16And like, yeah, this has been on his mind, the filmmaker's mind, for a long time. And it's interesting to see that in some ways only after the Bolsonaro era had somewhat ended did he feel like he could go and make the film, even though it's a period piece about a different regime that was sort of more full-bodied about what that is. I think it's also like, it ties in a lot to a documentary he made like three years ago called Pictures of Ghosts, which was about Resifa and like, in this case, like a lot of his memories, but also specifically memories of like the movie palaces there, which is another theme that kind of ties into what happens in this movie.

56:56It was a film I really liked. But yeah, I mean, I think, you know, like one thing about this film also is like, I have kind of like broadly described it as a movie about like acts of resistance. And I think it is, but I think it is much more deliberately tying together. I mean, there's one part where, you know, Armando arrives at this apartment complex that is like kind of he's going to be sheltered there. And it turns out to be filled with all of these different people. Yeah. Like who are on the run from different things. And I think that is something that is very pointed about, which is to be like, there are some people here who have run afoul of the military dictatorship.

57:31There are other people who have come from like Angola. There is someone who is on the run from his like mean and like kind of like abusive, like homophobic, like father and uncle. There are people who are there for all different reasons. It is not just like, and, you know, they have a conversation where one of them calls them refugees and someone else is like, we don't use that word. He's like, what else would you call us? It is less about kind of like taking, like, as opposed to say like one battle after another, which opens, right, with like these kind of like acts of like deliberate kind of like acts of activism, right, against the government.

58:08This is about people who have all been kind of like oppressed in different ways. And like it is about the kind of like sanctuary they find together. But it is about like the people who help them. Yeah. Yeah. And you get the sense, you know, that Armando, like his antagonist, this corrupt, is using the levers of corrupt government against him directly. whereas in other of these sort of refugees cases it's not so much that their antagonist has political sway or access it's just that they can take advantage of a somewhat lawless system where they're like you know they could disappear you or they could you know they're they're but their bodies lying on the ground and in front of gas stations like who's gonna really prosecute you know um but yeah the sense that like that this rot has not just sort of affected those who have direct or even somewhat indirect ties to the government, but just really, it just affects how people view life and live life.

59:05And then that he colors that with like Dona Sebastiana, which is such a great character, and then The Helpers is so nice, because it's like, what a testament to people doing that then, people doing it now. And that's a real parallel to one of them. Yeah, and I think it probably is something that resonated with people a lot. Before we get into spoiler territory, I do want to shout out to one of my favorite ongoing threads in this film. I mean, one of them, in a broader sense, is just this deep love for Brazilian culture in a very distinctive and diverse and singular celebration, right? Up to and including Carnival.

59:45Even while he's in this incredibly stressful situation, there is a scene in which Armando walks out into the street and Carnival is happening. Everyone is partying. And he joins them. He does a little. Yeah, he kind of like shimmies into the crowd in a way that's lovely. My other favorite thread that is ongoing here is just a kind of constant reminder of just be like, people be fucking. Yeah. There are like multiple scenes in which they just kind of like walk in or like spot some people having sex in sometimes public places. Why not? Many bunches of public places. Why not? You know? No, it's true.

1:00:17Like, yeah, like that life, you know, life carries on. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no. Which isn't to say that, like, these repressive, you know, governments should be tolerated. But, like, but, yeah, something survives. Yeah, life does not stop. Yeah.

1:00:35All right, we're going to talk spoilers for The Secret Agent. This section lasts about 23 and a half minutes if you want to skip ahead. Well, biggest spoilers about The Secret Agent. Now that we are, we are over the spoiler wall. He's not a secret agent. He's not a secret agent. No, I was going to say, that is like one of the funniest things to be like, where does the title come from? And you're like, it comes from, I had to look up the name of this movie because I could not recognize it. Like, it comes from a movie that is playing at his father-in-law's cinema, which is also an important location throughout the film that they keep returning to.

1:01:09It is the 1973 spy spoof, The Man from Acapulco, starring Jean-Paul Belmondo and Jacqueline Bissette. Ah, okay. Yes, I looked through the credits for it. But yeah, so that, I suppose, in Brazil was released as the secret agent. And so that is where the name comes from. Yeah. I mean, like when the movie starts, there is this moment where you're expecting him to turn out to be a spy or like a undercover part of some kind of like political resistance. Yeah. But I also think that there, I mean, maybe I'm maybe sitting in the back of the car with his dad. That kid is looking at his mysterious father who disappeared for a while and be like, I think he might be a secret agent.

1:01:50You know, like there's a sort of like awe almost projected from son to father about this. And like, you know, all the movie theater stuff is so much from Phil Hill's own life. And like, I mean, that that that shot that pushes out through the window and looks at that is like one of the most stunning shots of last year. like it's so good and i make this comparison favorably i realize it might not sound that way to other people i see a lot of roma in there like that like the sense memory stuff and like the grand old you know movie palace kind of stuff and like a real like let me do the best i can i can to make manifest like you know like you were saying like distinct memories of like an egg on a table or you know whatever like the way the way that my dad looked in the rearview mirror you The drawings he makes of, like, the son is obsessed with Jaws and keeps drawing these amazingly adorable photos or pictures of sharks, including, like, the poster.

1:02:47Like, there's an incredible rendition of the Jaws poster with, like, a shark coming up. Yeah. And it's funny to remember, like, and I don't think it's overstated in the film, like, that in the States, too, when that movie came out, like, people had a really hard time dealing with the violence of that movie and the suspense of that movie. Like, people vomiting and running out of the theater and fainting and all that. That was real. Yeah. No, I like the people who kind of like, they watch The Omen and they come out and they're like, I might be possessed in the lobby. It's just like a background thing going on.

1:03:16I appreciate that. Yeah. So this is a movie that is not about a secret agent. But for a long stretch, because he is like... operating under the kind of like, certain, like, what we expect from someone who is, like, maybe undercover, on the run, but undercover, you know, like, yes, he goes to this. He's meeting with contacts. They're setting him up with different things. He's, like, they're setting him up with a job at, like, the identification card office, right? And that makes him, puts him in the orbit of the corrupt chief of police, which he doesn't want to know about. There's a sense of mission here.

1:03:49Yes. Yes. And then that all kind of slowly dissolves the further we get, because we learn, he's not like the thing he's trying to achieve is intensely personal right and like what we're doing here is not some kind of like mission on behalf of some other force it is him active memory is an active memory it is him trying to get this card this identification card of his mother and the context of which we do not learn until the very end of the movie but he is willing to risk so much uh like his personal safety to find this card before he and his son flee the country because there was a very real chance and it happened where like their memory they would be totally kind of wiped from existence in a way as if they were never there right yeah yeah well and I you know I think one of the great moments in this movie is when we learn we do not learn until literally years in the future you know in the coda which skips ahead to you know a present day where we have his son now played by Wagner Mora in this incredible, I think, double role that is very carefully delineated.

1:04:57But he explains that his grandmother, Armando's mother, was the daughter of the housekeeper in this house and basically at 14 was impregnated by the son. The 17-year-old son had a baby. The baby looked white enough, as he said. He kind of lays that out, right? His mother was nicknamed India. He was beautiful. So they kept him. They took him away from her. And she had no choice about keeping him or no say about that at all. And they raised him in this kind of like more moneyed family. So that was it. Like the only trace he has of his mother's existence is this identity card. Yeah, exactly. When he's playing the son.

1:05:38Yes. I've heard two schools have thought about this. Do you think he's playing it as gay? Someone mentioned that to me as a possible reading. reading. The time I rewatched it this time with that in mind, I feel like it's not there or it could be there. I didn't see it. Yeah, like I feel like... Oh no, it's so interesting that he had the son be gay when he's an adult. And I was like, oh, was that a thing in the movie? I don't think that... I don't think it is the way he plays that character repels that reading, but I do not think it is like, obviously. I'm not sure that's... Yeah, right? I just don't think there's...

1:06:14It's definitely not text. I've had people say it to me with such conviction. I think that... If that were the case, I guess you could understand it as just further evidence of look how far the country's come. Progress has been made in some arenas and others, whatever, that this out gay man, whatever. But it's just a funny little added theory about the end of that movie. One thing that I love about that scene and how it's scripted is that when he's recounting some of his experiences, he misremembers things that we have already seen happen in the film, where I think he talks about how he had wanted to go see Jaws.

1:06:56His father says, absolutely not. He's like, you know, like he already has nightmares all the time. It's a grandfather who wants to bring him to see it. Right. And then when he retells it, he reverses that, which goes back to all of these themes about memory and how if we don't speak the things, if we don't have the ID card, if we don't talk about the man under the cardboard at the gas station, then we lose these things and we don't have them at all. And then we repeat them. Yeah. Because we repeat the bad stuff because we didn't learn from them. Yeah, no, I think there is a tremendous worry about what the cost is of just effacing history.

1:07:36Like, obviously time goes on, right? It's not supposed to be the movie theater the movie keeps returning to, but another movie theater. The theater where he says he saw Jaws is now the blood bank that he's working at as a doctor. and that's like a real thing from Pictures of Ghosts like that was really a movie theater that the director had gone to movies at as a kid and is now a blood bank but yeah like I think there is so much about the ways in which it's easy to kind of like manipulate the record historical record and then to manipulate memory that way right because like I mean even like there's like so it's kind of Maura like under delivers it And it makes it even more devastating when he tells Flavia, this researcher who has been listening to tapes of his father, you know, like, you remember my father better than I do.

1:08:28Like, even this horrible image of, like, him as a child on the day that his father turns out to be killed, shot in the street, like, waiting for his father to pick him up. You know, he tells a story and he's like, I don't remember it myself. I know I've created, like, this, you know, kind of, like, stand in memory because my grandfather told me this, but, like, I don't remember it. Yeah, and I do think that there is definitely, I like to do this, set up strongman movies that don't exist, but there is a worst version of this movie that's like, we see him gunned down, the boy is just out of reach and he falls dead on the street in front of his son.

1:09:06Or even like it's intercut, like he's trying to get there and he's waiting and he never knows. Instead, like in a way that I think really does risk alienation with American viewers, well, a lot of it did. And me at first, I was confused. It's like, we only find out that he got shot and killed from a photograph when the movie has fully moved into the present tense, you know? And we never see that. There is no resolution to even did it happen that day, like an hour later to 10 minutes later. Like we see the one assassin, see his dead colleague and then kind of disappeared. It's like, oh, I guess the understanding is he caught up with him and killed him.

1:09:37But like, you know, it's so blunt, but I think that's so effective because that's exactly how in some ways it was how it was experienced by the son. It was not in sight. It was just something he heard about. And maybe he saw that newspaper photograph at some point, but like it's an abstraction to him in a way. Yeah. Well, I think, you know, like the kind of most outsized version of that is hairy leg, right? Which is the story that the newspapers run with in this like kind of outrageous tabloid, you know, like supernatural story where they're claiming that this leg, just like a kind of like severed leg is menacing people who are cruising in this various spots.

1:10:19And like everyone who reads the story, the newspaper story can read between the lines and know that it's like people who are cruising. But like, yes. And then this leg attacks people. And this is like a huge newspaper story. Like all of the newsboys are like clamoring for that because they know it's going to sell so well. And then when you get that kind of final scene in which Bobby, like the one of the two assassins is like killed and they put the newspaper over him. You see the headline. It's like carnival deaths are up to like 91. Yeah. And you're like, oh, that was sort of a distraction from like the actual ongoing violence that is happening, you know, like the leg in question is right.

1:10:55It's alluded to that that's the leg of someone that was killed illegally by the police or at least disposed of. Right. Right. Except then when they build out the hairy leg mythology, eventually hairy leg is the one stealing the leg from the morgue. So then it becomes like you're like, wait, are there multiple legs out there? What is going on? But yeah, I mean, like, when you actually see the rendering of Harry Legg, like a stop motion monster movie, right? Like jumping around and like kicking people in the face. A shocking scene just because it is so, it's almost like you are in a movie within the movie.

1:11:28Yeah. It looks completely different. It feels completely different. The music is different. Like the music is like monster, like throwback monster movie music. And it's really funny, but it's also funny that it is left to like pretty late in the movie also. So, like, you know, the ways in which this movie unfolds and the way in which it waits so long to let you know why Armando is on the run and, like, being hunted, you know, like, has, like, literally a hit out on his head, you know. And some might say, I mean, I have heard the criticism. It does try patience a bit. Like, it's not as fast paced as a movie as it maybe sells itself as at the beginning.

1:12:06It takes a long time to really find out what the hell is going on. Yeah. No, it is. I not. It does not unfold in a conventional way at all. Which again is why it's surprising that it's gotten all this Oscar attention. I think that scene where Armando finally just talks to the head of this group of helping people get out of the country just tells the story of what happened is so good. I don't know if you've mentioned, but Wagner Moore is obviously nominated for Best Actor, what his snippet is going to be. but I have to imagine it has to be from that scene. I would think so. He's so great in it.

1:12:43Like the particular version of outrage he expresses, yes, is like, I am so upset that not just what was done to me, yes, but like that it should have been able to happen at all. Like I am so offended by the kind of like brash corruption of this man. Yeah, I mean, you can see where his nomination comes in. I think also the coda with him playing another character helps. but also I think the real triumph of the Academy as it in regards to this movie is like the best casting nomination. Like it's the first time they've done this category. Everyone was like, well, how's this going to work? Is it just going to be like, it is, it turns out five best picture nominees.

1:13:23Hopefully in the years to come, they can think a bit more broadly about like what specifically is working casting wise in a movie. It doesn't just have to be, I like that ensemble from a best picture nominee, but in the secret agents case, They could have gone a different direction with casting. There were, you know, four other choices. But like, this movie is so beautifully populated, like from the woman who does the interviewing to Donna Sebastiana to these gangsters to the kid to the leg to whatever. Like, it's just it's it's. And I would have to imagine that the branch nominating it for casting has not worked with this Brazilian casting director before.

1:13:56She's they're not a colleague of, you know, theirs. but they just see how beautifully uh you know everyone fits so perfectly into this tapestry um i think that's for me that's the coolest nomination it got yeah it is really i mean because the casting is amazing like this this movie has an enormous cast of like memorable faces and voices and yeah you know and bodies honestly like one of the things i love is just like how many bodies like and types of bodies you see on screen uh but yeah like these are there There are a lot of actors that he's worked with before. There are a lot of repeat faces from Baccarat, for instance.

1:14:30Like, he clearly has. Udo Kier. Yeah, and then Udo Kier. Terrific in this, like, single sequence in which he plays a Jewish man. That brings to all this other Brazilian history. Oh, my God. Of course, like, World War II, like, you know, like, it wasn't just the Nazis who fled to South America. There were tons of other people from Europe who ended up there. Like, and that he doesn't, like, turn that into some sort of bit of didactic. like this is also part of the tapestry of this city and this country. It's like, no, no, that's another movie, but I just want to touch on it briefly, you know, and effectively.

1:15:02Yeah. And just also the ways in which the police chief just kind of like has no interest in understanding what this man's actual background is. They're just like, show us your scars. Like, yeah, like you must be a soldier. And you're like, he wasn't a soldier. This is not where those scars came from. But yeah, that scene is terrific. Special mention for Donna Sebastiana. Yeah. Oh, she's so good. Maria Tanya Maria Tanya Maria yeah she's amazing that's the one thing that would be like I mean it would take a lot for the Oscars to pay attention to a performance that's like that far down in the this is why we need our special appearance we need the third Oscar that's true she's like the perfect she's so wonderful she's so tiny she like especially contrast to Wagner just like she's so tiny and do we know anything about her?

1:15:51she was in Baccarat as well um she it's funny she's listed as an actress artisan and seamstress on wikipedia um but might just be some colorful character yeah like i i i think the first like the buckrow seems to be her first acting credit so uh you know she was just someone that he found uh and she seems to have like an amazing kind of like storied life uh and her character has an amazing storied life uh One of my favorite lines of hers is when she says, you know, like, I did three things in Italy when I was in Italy during the war. And I'm not going to tell you what they are, but I had to do them.

1:16:28And you're like, oh, she's been through so much. She's done so much. What did you think of the sort of wraparound story with the two researchers who you don't really know? They kind of pop in for the first time maybe halfway through. And you don't really know why they're listening to these tapes at first. It was like, are they making a podcast? No, I mean, it is a wild. That is like. Even more so than Harry Legg, I think, is like the wildest jump when like halfway through the movie, we suddenly leaped like decades to these two characters who's never seen before who are listening to audio tapes.

1:17:00And even the shock of seeing modern technology. Yes. Well, wait a second. Yeah. But I think that like the way that it works so well when it arrives, because it's like, you know, this mounting worry that there will be no kind of acknowledgement or reckoning with this past at all. because in the present in the 70s present tense of the movie like they all feel so swallowed up by this thing that there's a sense of comfort and sadness when you're like okay so like this is all at least known by these two you know researchers or whatever like at least someone is but it also like just becomes i think for one of them it is like the thing she does for her job you know it is like unusual that flavia is like there are still people attached to this that i can find through great effort, right?

1:17:48But that that's a job at all seems of value, right? But even that is like, you're like all of this through the grace of, you know, this, yes, like daughter of a wealthy, corrupt Sao Paulo family who decided to invest her money into this kind of underground, including taking documentation, which has never explained why she is invested in that. But yeah, you're like, oh, that is the only reason why we have this chorus of voices, you know, documenting this time because like one of the things about being an underground kind of like this underground world is that there is no kind of public facing history of that, right?

1:18:23Like it is at the time you have to live in secret. This is all being done in secret. So yeah, those audio tapes become, you know, the only record. And I think you feel in the movie the delicacy with which like, you know, like real historical record versus like the kind of history that then gets created officially. Yeah. And I do think that that kind of present tense framing device like runs the risk of being a little bit like not gimmicky but a bit like a little cloying or something and i've seen some criticisms of this movie that kind of save something to that effect like we didn't really need this it kind of it telegraphs what the movie's about too much i kind of on second viewing i disagree i think it i think it's deployed effectively and and with restraint enough that that even the sort of more sentimental ending with this meeting of these two people who you know seem to be bridging all these different divides and um i think it works because similar to the sort of unseen death of armando like like the the direction the writing doesn't sort of just overplay it it's yeah you know no i think one of the things uh you know that makes it so heartbreaking is the way that mora plays that second character you know like in this he's kind of indifferent to it or just like he's like i cannot pretend And to like feel these enormous like, you know, like feelings of grief.

1:19:42This person is gone from my memory, you know, like like he is only a concept to me now. Like you understand him as a person more than I do. You're like, that's such a sad thing. It's also a very real thing. I think when I've done documentary projects and stuff, I've interviewed people and and this that happens where it's like, you know, you know more about the subject than they do. you want something from them that they can't always give you. Both on an emotional level and on a textual level of like, I need this for my work or just my personal self-knowledge, self-satisfaction. But life moved on for him.

1:20:19And both Armando and Flavia are doing a homecoming to find something. He's looking for this identity card for his mother. Flavia's looking to just kind of make a connection with this family she's been essentially, you know, listening to or one member of. And the kind of, yeah, he basically tells her, he's like, oh, I don't know, life moved on, you know, like, yes, I know it was a big thing and I appreciate that you care about it, but like, I can't dwell on that, you know. And I think also he's just like, that's just not the life, you know, like, I was raised by my grandfather. He is who I think of as my father, like that.

1:20:54Before we, I do want to talk a bit more about Wagner Mora, but before we do that, I did want to ask you, in light of our earlier conversation. Do you feel like this movie is built with international audiences in mind? It doesn't feel that way to me. I mean, I can't infer anyone's intent behind the camera, but like it, I think because of the sort of like the plotting that is a bit obfuscating, the strangeness of it, the deep, from what I understand, like this sort of, I hate to use this fucking term, but like the sort of deep roster of like Easter eggs for like, like references to Brazilian culture and history and very specific stuff.

1:21:32No, I think it's made for Brazilians because obviously they're the ones who are going to, you know, feel it most potently. Yeah, I think, you know, it's great that it does. It has appeal beyond that. Yeah. I mean, one of the things I appreciate is that it does not kind of do the very heavy handed like, here's a note. I mean, like even the opening like crawl of text, right, is like it's Brazil in 1977. It's a period of great mischief and is not like the military dictator level, you know? So I had a funny thing happen at my screening. Yeah. You know, they're pretty solemn ending. The credits roll, a woman stands up and shouts, Viva Brazil!

1:22:13Okay. All right. Like to the crowd. Yeah. And it sort of got me thinking about how the characters in this movie kind of talk about how much they hate Brazil constantly. Like they're trying, you know, it's like they're very put upon living in this place where they are oppressed. And yet the movie so clearly loves Brazil. Yes. Like their parties in the streets. It's so colorful. It has a sense of national pride. Yeah. And nobody is standing up at the end of one battle after another and saying like, God bless America. Well, you don't know that. Yeah. And I just kind of think. I was cheering on Team USA in the figure skating, though.

1:22:55you know like during the Olympics like I can understand some degree of that duality I mean like obviously in this case it's much more about like national identity that is like these you know kids are skating well but like you know how does what is a song that one battle after another ends on yeah so I think like maybe we're also in a place right now where maybe most of us are not inclined to stand up and yell you know God bless America we have a we're having a hard time understanding what national pride means and how to have national pride if we should have it at all. And I just found it kind of inspiring that this artist was able to make a movie that is both self-critical and proud of itself.

1:23:41The more I talk about this movie, the more I think it is like just a stone cold masterpiece. Yeah. No, I think it's a tremendous movie. And I think you are totally correct. I think like one One of its greatest strengths is the, like, boundless wells of affection it has for the culture and people and landscape of this country. And thus the sadness about the fact that it has to be so marred and derailed and harmed and, you know, and made ugly on the international stage by this cabal of horrible, you know, military politicians and stuff. You know, there's a, in that long-lived Brazil, there's also a sadness and a defiance and a rage there, you know.

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1:27:37All right. Wagner Mora. Yeah. there is like a part of me that is like if anyone pulls an upset in best actor which everyone has been like it's timmy's you know like timmy's gonna get it uh it would be wagner who i don't know that any of us would have called as like the a nominee you know like uh even a few months before like uh that like watching him kind of like rise through the ranks in terms of like all of these kind of like the praise he was getting, but also certain precursor awards where you're like, oh, it's going to happen. He's going to get a nomination. Yeah, they clearly like that movie, The Academy.

1:28:14And I do think that, you know, usually we think of a vote split happening between people from the same movie. But in this case, can two frontrunners in Chalamet and DiCaprio, presumably, can they split it? And there comes this, you know, yeah, I could see it. I mean, I think that last year, yes the conversation was very much like Mikey versus Demi Moore but I think that Fernanda Torres from I'm Still Here I think she came pretty close you know I mean she won the Golden Globe which you know doesn't always mean anything but like there was momentum I think if that movie had had two three more weeks momentum there would have been a much much tougher competition it was just that I'm Still Here sort of arrived kind of late in the consciousness for a lot of voters whereas I think that Secret Agent has had a lot more time to linger for a variety of, you know, like, it was at Cannes, you know, a while ago.

1:29:08Neon did a good job of making sure people saw it. I mean, that's reflected in the amount of nominations it got. And so that means that Mora is probably way more front of mind than Fernanda Torres was. The history of actors winning in languages, in performances that are in languages other than English is, like, it's a fairly limited one, you know, though as you mentioned, like, they're like, we are in a moment of like a much more kind of like slow, but a long, long incoming opening up of not just Best Picture, but these other categories to non-English language films. We had what, Yuzhut and Young for Minari, right?

1:29:45Zoe Saldana. Oh, of course, yeah. That is largely a Spanish speaking role. That's true. Yeah, yeah. And then you go back to like Marion Cotillard, Roberto Benigni. There are some angels in this city. Roberto Benigni. Yeah. unforgettable yeah but like you know if you go and sit in the old Oscar auditorium you can still feel him dancing on the seats behind you yes I do wonder do you believe that there's been a whole goddamn Olympics in Italy and they have not sent him falling down a fucking ski jump hill or just doing a pratfall why is he not doing pratfalls all over the place yeah why isn't he the mascot they're giving all the winners this little like stuffed stoat or like weasel or whatever and it's like no it should be Benigni I know did he do that acceptance speech for nothing.

1:30:31I know. I wonder if he's fallen out of, like, favor. Yeah, the truth is, I have not kept up with what Roberto Benigni has been up to lately. Well, guess what? Our guest next week. We're gonna look this up and it's gonna be like, he is a serial killer. He is a close advisor to Giorgio Maloney. Yeah. Like, oh, okay. But I do think that, like, one thing that Mora has as an advantage is that he has been in, he, like, lives in L.A. with his family, You know, he has been in a bunch of American productions. Like, he is someone that, like, craftspeople are aware of. And Narcos was big. Narcos was a very popular show.

1:31:10Yeah, like, that was, like, one of those, like, Netflix giving one of those flickers of, like, the last gasp of monoculture, right? Like, every once in a while, Netflix is, like, one of the last places capable of pulling that off. The tractor beam pulled in, like, middle-aged dads. Exactly. Here we go. Oh, then you're, like, you'd hear people talking about it in the wild, which is not always the case with major Netflix. sense no that definitely is to his advantage that's yeah yeah so uh do i think it's gonna happen i don't know that i'm feeling that but like uh i i think if if there is an upset it would be him like uh if someone does not yeah no i know i think 100 and i do think that like dicaprio's disadvantage is like a certain kind of more like legacy fatigue of like we gave that kid the thing 10 years ago he's not a kid anymore like what like he's part of the club he bangs all these young models and makes$20 million a movie.

1:31:58I don't want to give him another award. And then Timmy, it's like, oh, he's too young and cool and my daughter is obsessed with him, whatever. Whereas here comes this solid man. Well, like warmth, a warmth kind of nice masculinity in this big important movie. Even in the movie, there are characters who are like, see, that is a man. I could see all members of different quadrants of the Academy being like, that's our guy. yeah yeah that'd be thrilling i mean that would be thrilling i would be i'm i'm i think i'm still kind of weirdly rooting for chalamet even though like and like think of chalamet what would become of her if if you didn't win i mean i'd be very worried she'd be under a piece of cardboard outside a guest she would just put herself there just like kind of crawl there yeah yeah um yeah so uh you know i i i would not be sad if that happens no offense to timmy who i think is incredible and marty supreme but the closer we get to the ceremony i mean we're only a few weeks away i am in full like just surprise me mode yeah like after watching the spirit awards were like it was like the winners were like kind of like okay so it's train dreams for director you know it felt kind of i mean i was thrilled for rose burn winning but like okay you know like i would i mean if she wanted the oscars holy cow that would be that would be crazy but like i just i want surprises now and maura would be both that but also something i could actually like root for Before we go, I wanted to do our weekly Il Postino corner.

1:33:21Oh, yeah. Of course. Bob, do you have the electrodes to strap to Allison's head? Well, I don't have the electrodes. I wear them all the time now. But I do have, so I did some digging to try and find this study. Yeah. You went to the records office, posed to someone else. Well, I actually, you know, I did a little bit of search through the literature. Sure. I mean, you are a research professional. Sort of. Yeah, well, thank you. I should also say that Blanky on the subreddit also dug this up, so it's not like it was an incredible feat of research. But so anyway, well, maybe we should remind people what actually this was.

1:33:57When I was an undergrad, I did a lot of psych experiments for money. They would, like, literally pay you cash for you to come in and participate in this. And one of the most involved ones that I did, which paid more money than the other ones, for obvious reasons, is that I got electrodes strapped to me, and I had to wear headphones. And then I watched, like, I think, like 15 or 20 minutes of Il Postino with the subtitles on. And we established this was years after that movie. Yeah, years after. I don't know how they ended up. they landed on Il Postino. And then every once in a while, I would hear like a loud noise in the headphones or I would get a mild electric shock.

1:34:35And then afterwards... And they never... And then they were like, go home. I think they did then quiz me about details in the movie. So I think the idea was that it was supposed to affect like how much this distraction affected my ability to follow the opening of the film. So I was able to find multiple references to the use of Il Postino as a film used in psychological experiments. No. But the only experiment that I could find that was sort of close was one called Orbito-frontal cortex and dynamic filtering of emotional stimuli, which was performed at the University of California, Berkeley. Oh, yeah.

1:35:14Not far from where you're from. This is true. I think that you may have been in a mirror experiment because it sounds very similar. Let's see. The set of auditory stimuli consisted of 144 environmental sounds, train whistle, dog bark. Each sound was unique and thus was presented only once during the experiment. Alice's eyes are falling back in her head. I just wanted to tell you. To maintain a relatively constant level of arousal, the subjects watched a movie with the audio off Il Postino with subtitles during stimulus presentation. We obtained EEG recordings with electrodes placed on three midline scalp locations.

1:35:55But they don't say shock, do they? I don't think they say shock. And it says that after the experiment, if either Angela Lansbury or Meryl Streep called anybody and said a certain set of words, they would assassinate a president. Or they would become a film critic. It was like a horrifying side effect of this. And that's why they wiped the experiment from the records after that, because they were like, what have we done? Anyway, I just thought you would maybe be interested to know that you were part of a long tradition of Il Pistino-related studies. I think the great relief is just that I wasn't participating in someone's highly specific kink, you know?

1:36:27It was weird afterwards. They were like, this is in a basement, and then he has to take pictures of my feet. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, to feel like there's actual academic backing here. I would like to get to the bottom of what the reasoning for that particular movie, because that's pretty random, even in the early 2000s. I just like it. Maybe psych departments across the nation. There's a sexy element to it, and maybe the other language element is part of the sort of cognitive thing. I don't know, but that's fascinating. I wish I had done that. Thank you. I appreciate your look. Validating. This is your life.

1:36:57It's a bit of my backstory. Yeah. Now, 30 years from now, when some girl shows up to ask you about your life experience. It's like, well, it all goes back to this one moment. What are we doing next week? Oh, so we're going to get on an SAS flight from Sao Paulo all the way up to Oslo, where we're going to be talking about sentimental value. The last of our two non-explanetable features. Yeah. Yeah. We're going to have a special guest for that, which is very exciting. Is that one streaming? You can rent it at the$9.99 level. So I think it's worth it. Maybe watch it with a couple people, you know, split up the cost, if you want to.

1:37:33But yeah, we'll be doing that. And then if you're doing your homework, doing your math at home, that will leave two more movies to talk about before we get to the Oscars, which we would argue are the two biggies. Yep. Yeah. So we'll see you here next week.

1:37:52Critical Darlings is a Blank Check production in association with Vulture. Hosted by Alison Wilmore and Richard Lawson. Produced by Benjamin Frisch. Executive produced by Griffin Newman and Neil Janowitz. Video production and distribution by Anne Victoria Clark, Wolfgang Ruth, and Jennifer Jean.