Critical Darlings: Train Dreams, And Netflix’s Quest For Best Picture

26:57And now a lot of people want to make that movie. Yes. And there was a movie that was at Sundance last year or something. What's the one with the horse riding family? East of Wall. East of Wall. I watched that and I was like, okay, you can't just do the Chloe thing. Right, right. You know, you can't just repeat the formula. Yeah. Like, it doesn't really work. And I'm not saying that that's what Train Dreams or Jockey or whatever are doing exactly. I mean, this does, like Train Dreams, to distinguish them, is filled with professional actors. Correct. As opposed to... And it's based on, like, you know, literature.

27:27Yes. Yeah, yeah.

27:31Hey, Ben from the Future here. We're going to talk about the plot of Train Dreams now. If you don't want to hear any of that, you can skip forward 12 and a half minutes, or you can just, you know, go watch it. It's out there on Netflix. I read the novel, like, very hastily, so the novella to kind of, like... But, like, I have read a few pieces that I thought were interesting. I didn't feel like I dwelled on the novel enough to really form an opinion on this, but, like, who felt like... the problem with this movie is that it misses the point of the source material. And I'm like, I don't want to hold that against something because sometimes you could be, yes, like trying to do something totally different.

28:09Like your project is your project. But I do feel like in making so much of this movie about him mourning his wife and child, as opposed to them being like one element in this other, you know, like it becomes like very conventional in that sense. It becomes something that, like, is the core of, like, half of the Christopher Nolan movies, at least, which is, like, my job is taking me away from my family. Are you saying that a lot of art recently has been a meditation on grief? Perhaps too much art? Also about being torn between your work slash maybe your calling and then, you know, the family. This is basically interstellar.

28:50Exactly. I think one of the deviations from the novella is that the Joel Edgerton character is more involved in the killing of the Chinese immigrants at the beginning of the story. And in the movie, he's sort of witness to it. And the way that he's haunted after the fact by that event would make a lot more sense if he was somehow complicit. it yeah like i think that the movie would like him to is worried about making him too unlikable even if it would be say period appropriate for him to be like oh we're gonna go lynch this guy i think he helps carry him yes he like throws him over the edge but he like he like grabs his legs but then it's like keeps being like what did he do what did he do you know like it does make it feel much more like he was just happened to be there and his like guilt came from not intervening you know right um as opposed to being like oh we helped try and you know kill this guy who i think in the novel he escapes uh he runs away so like there is also this like possible threat right like of someone coming back but yeah like i think that i think the kind of like it like both these things are front-loaded too like the he he runs into a guy um like i i think like a just someone who's riding the rails who is like um got his like leg cut and is dying and gives him some what and like I think that's Clifton Collins.

30:18Yeah, Clifton Collins. And that's just like a weird flicker of a moment, like this almost hallucinatory thing in the beginning montage. And then, yes. But I think that these more jagged... And I think that character in the book, or this novella, was a child molester or something? Yeah. They take away some really dark details. He confesses that he molested his niece, who got pregnant, and then her dad beat her to try and make her miscarry, and she died. Right, so really dark, heavy stuff. Really dark stuff. Yeah. Or like, I think he has like a friend who, in the movie, he has a friend who runs a store.

30:52I think in the book, that character is like more just like a guy who dies horribly through this like kind of random incident the first time he gets drunk. And like, yeah, like these are like much darker fragments that also, I think like the ways in which they affect this character are feel like kind of like less clear and interesting. Whereas I think in the movie, you just get the sense that he is kind of, he is gliding along, but maybe haunted a bit. Right. That's it. Like his main quality is feeling haunted. Quietly haunted. Yes. And I feel like the idea of being like this like pebble being thrown into this enormous rushing stream of kind of like industrial change and history does not come through as much because it is sort of just about a guy sad about his family.

31:40And it sort of mythologizes a period of American history that, yes, was progress, but also brutal and violent like all American progress tends to be. And I think you really lose the more profound meaning on the positive side if you don't have the negative. Because I think this movie just kind of, like you said, floats along. It has this beautiful ending that is very reminiscent of 20th century women's. I mean, both end in biplanes with a narrator talking about the end of their life and whatever. that is speaking to the smallness of his life, but the profundity of that smallness, but also the profundity of his just tiny part in the bigger, like, broader swirl of history and American ecosystem.

32:21But you're like, but I don't really, what are you tethering this to? Like, I don't feel like there's any event, even in some ways the death of his wife and child, significant enough to sort of earn this big profundity at the end that I think on my first two viewings, I was like, no, like, that's enough. The ending is powerful enough that I think the whole movie has sort of can stand on its own. And I just don't know if I feel that anymore. I don't mean to come down hard on the movie because I do think it is well-intentioned. I just think it handles stuff with kid gloves where, especially right now, given what America is both revealing of itself currently but also of its past, it's just like we don't – like let's be a little more honest about where we are and where we live.

33:02Yeah. Yeah. So why do you think this movie got traction? Is it because it feels like it's nice? I think the ending. Yeah. Honestly, I think it looks great. I think Will Patton's voiceover is like selling that movie really well, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And I think that at Sundance last year, you had, if I had legs, which was completely off-putting to so many people at the festival, just as many people liked it. Yeah. But it ditto Twinless, which, you know, had gay sex scenes and blah, blah, blah. And then you start to kind of pick away at the other highlights. Sorry, baby, you know, was maybe not.

33:41What I'm saying is I think a lot of straight guys really liked it. that's fair okay yeah yeah um it also i mean it has like like yes like uh dad angst which i think is something that uh does seem to keep going over well can we talk about edgerton a bit because he feels like one of those guys that has just been around forever but like never gotten the role though i don't know i i have a personal favorite edgerton role but i is there something for you that stands out otherwise for uh well i just want to remark on his completely normal career i mean And so many actors have been in Train Dreams, directed Boy Erased, co-written a Shakespeare adaptation for Timothy Shalom.

34:19Like, his career is so—oh, also been in The Great Gatsby. He's had such a weird career, both in front of and behind the camera. But I'm curious what you think his signature role is. Well, I was also going to mention, he produced The Plague, which was, like, a great movie that just kind of got into nowhere. Like, unfortunately, just came out at the worst possible time. Like, it got a Christmas release. but is like a kind of was the better movie about kind of like uh crowd bullying kids bullying each other with this about a disease um at can this year just much less high profile than alpha but uh yeah and he produced that and is in it and you're like oh that's interesting like he made this happen for like a first-time filmmaker uh he just spotted talent uh no i think the best edge of the role is clearly warrior uh talking about uh straight male angst uh i love people People offstage are agreeing with you, Al.

35:06I know. I love it. Warrior is a great movie. I've talked someone into watching it recently who was like, yeah, you're right. But even in that, he plays the less flashy guy, right? Yeah. Tom Hardy is there with no neck. He looks like he's built like a minotaur. He's like so, and is like, comes in, like rushes in to fights and like beats people bloody in like two seconds and then rushes off again. And then meanwhile, you have Joel Edgerton as like the high school teacher who is like getting back into MMA because he's underwater on his mortgage, you know, like he is almost always the more regular guy or the kind of like more unassuming guy.

35:43And in this movie, he is playing an unassuming guy that is like the like kind of definitionally like this guy who leaves no trace, right? Like at the end, it's like he had left no heirs. He had no family. Nature literally just reclaims him like as if he never existed. He becomes like a, yes, like a fertilizer bed at the end. Like Stephen King in The Creepshow. Exactly. But in a poetic way. In a beautiful, pristinely framed and lit way. Yeah. So, I mean, like, is there something funny about the fact that it like, just like, this is the role that this has happened, like, kind of like, I mean, he did not get the nomination, but like, this is the role that's happened for him?

36:21I think it's one of those things where you need a familiar face to take you through this sort of like wandering sort of dreamy thing. You know, he's a good person to sort of like have lead you through that. Everyone has seen him in something and probably liked him in that thing. You know, it is funny that like this Australian guy is playing this American everyman. But like whatever. But that's the era we live in. He's done it a few times now. He's kind of one of our go to everyman. Yeah. But I don't know, because I tend to think of him as sort of more menacing, but Great Gatsby, Animal Kingdom.

36:54Sure, sure. You know, he wrote, he directed this, written, he wrote and directed this movie called The Gift in 2015, where, well, there's sort of a twist in that movie that I won't spoil, but like, he's kind of playing a creep in that. So to see him like softer, gentle teddy bear, I mean, he played a great Falstaff in The King, the Timothy Shalemite movie I alluded to. Yeah, he makes sense because he is sort of the actor equivalent in this of like the flannel overshirt worn at the Echo Park Cafe. Yeah, no, that's true. It's also, it's funny because you're like, this is a role that requires someone to be like, to not give you a lot.

37:30You know, like he, I think he is compelling. Like he holds a screen. As you said, he barely talks in this movie. And he does not feel like he knows what's going on much or has much control of his life. Nor does he care to? Yeah. Really? Right. The idea of having, I mean, that's, I think the most interesting part about this movie to me is the idea of grappling with the idea of feeling like you have no, not even you have no agency, which I mean, also you could argue is like a much more contemporary expectation. But like, that you, the idea of even occurring to you that you could have agency is gone, you know, like you do, you just take life as it comes to you on a moment to moment.

38:07Yeah, I mean, maybe in some ways he represents, like, the sort of final generation of, like, pre-New Deal, pre-Union people who were like, I just get an honest wage and, you know, clock out. But also, like, when guys get, like, stuff dropped on them or they have to keep working and they're like, you have no power to be like, nope. Just nails boots to the tree. Exactly. You're like, whoops. Yeah. That branch just killed you. I mean, there are interesting things in the movie. I feel bad that I said I really didn't like it. No, I appreciate it. Like, yeah, I just like, they're just something about it.

38:39Let's tear this delicate independent film apart. Right, I know. This well-intentioned, genuinely, from nice people like who I've met. Like, I went to a dinner, like, with them in Savannah. And that was back when I was more positive on the movie, I think. But, like, they were all very nice and earnest. And I like that. And I like that, like, of all of the sort of bigger, flashier things that Netflix had this year, that Train Dreams is the one that sort of stuck it out alongside Frankenstein all the way. Can I say something just nice about Train Dreams? Yes. I think the score in this movie is really, really lovely.

39:12Yeah. It's by Bryce Desner, who is one of the members of The National. Speaking of like flannel clad, icky rock. I'm telling you, I'm onto something. Yeah. But I don't know. What set this movie apart from like other kind of Malachy, you know, visually dense movies is that the score really has a pulse to it. I don't know. It keeps the movie moving in a way for me. Yeah, no, the aesthetics in the movie, like all of the technicals are really, really great. And I should say, Ben, if you like Bryce Dessner's score for this, have you seen the Mike Mills film, Come On, Come On? No, no, I haven't. Okay, that's A, a beautiful movie.

39:53B, the score for that is something. If I need a cry, I put that on. I put the last little selection from that soundtrack on, so you should listen to it. He's an incredible composer. I love his work. I wish he worked for him.

40:13David. Yes. I am so excited about this episode sponsor. Yes. Me too. Might truly be the most excited I've ever had for anything to sponsor this podcast. We're excited to like sponsors that tell you how to like help your finances. Hey, easy. Okay. Okay. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Easy. Today's episode of Blank Check is brought to you by Nirvana, the band, the show, the movie. Nirvana, the band, the show, the movie. Marie's here, too, because everyone's so excited. I love this movie. I mean, I love this band, this show, this movie. Yes. Important correction. This film is finally coming to theaters. February 13th is the start of the theatrical rollout.

40:52Yeah. From our friends at Neon. Neon's bringing it out. We have been waiting impatiently for other people to see this film. We saw this at South by Southwest. One of the best screenings of my life. Truly. Truly. It was an unbelievable experience. Ben, you were there. Had a blast. And I had never seen or engaged with this show previously. Me neither. Most of the group. Don't really need it. It was like seven of us. You don't need the context to enjoy. Absolutely. It's a big thing. I think you need to know what Toronto is. Because you knew nothing other than us hyping you up for you. Well, this was the problem.

41:24And we should say, it's a city in Canada. Yes. I went in you guys had just been like it's the best thing ever and not just you other people I can't believe how good and I was like this is so overhyped and here's the great thing about David I'm walking in like I felt mad about it where it's just like they've primed it too much for me I like that you acknowledge this because sometimes if we tell you something's good I see you go like put your fists up well I'm just like relax because I need to I can't go in with too much hype because that's not good for my critical experience of a movie and then I thought it was better than the hype This is the thing.

41:56This movie is truly a miracle. I think it is the funniest movie of the last 10 years easily. And listeners of the show know I am often bemoaning the state of the theatrical comedy. And this is a movie that provides the thing I've been longing for, which is you go see this with a crowd. It is just electric every five seconds, rolling laughter. And the movie just builds and builds and builds. This is a movie for Matt Johnson. Yes. Director Blackberry, one of my favorite movies the last couple of years. Him and Jay McCarroll started as a web series, became a TV series, and now is a movie. But you don't need to know any of that.

42:33This works as a clean entry point. It's a movie about two friends who are obsessed with their band playing at one venue. They want to play at the Rivoli. That's all you need to know about these guys. Before the lights went down at the South by Southwest screening, I believe you turned to me and said, what do I need to know? And I said, all you need to know is they want to play the Rivoli. They got to play the Rivoli. I've been to Toronto many times. Have you been to the Rivoli? Never. I've stayed on Queen West, though, and I've certainly walked by the Rivoli many times. And I've always been like, oh, yeah, the Rivoli.

43:01It's not Carnegie Hall. No, it's a fucking bar. And you never see these guys. What do you mean? It's the most important music venue in Canada. You never see these guys practice their music. But all you know is that every episode starts with here's the plan. Here's how we play the Rivoli. Right. We got to play the Rivoli. And this movie starts from there and explodes in unbelievable ways. I think this movie is truly like a magic trick beyond just how funny it is. And for how much it's caked in the deep lore of this Nirvana, the band, the show universe that's existed for 15 years, you can just go in knowing nothing and be blown away.

43:34And for a movie that seems kind of slapdash and roughly made from the start, it starts to pull off genuine like cinematic magic tricks where you cannot believe how this thing was made. What was my Letterboxd review, Griff? Did you see it? No, please tell me. LOL. How did they make that? Truly. That was how I felt. How did this get made? I was also just like, how did they make this? I don't get it. You don't understand how they're getting away with it legally. You don't understand how it was cleared for release. And there is a melding of scripted and non-scripted, them engaging with real people on the street where the line between what is planned and what is not boggles your brain.

44:14It was my favorite thing I saw all of 2025. And now it's coming out in 2026. Now, listen, I do have to do some talking points. Do some talking points. Nirvana, the band, the show, the movie is in theaters February 13th. Get tickets now. We must say this. Nirvana, the band, the show, the movie. They're very clear that we have to say the title of this thing a few times. Nirvana, the band, the show, the movie. Why? It's a really simple, easy title. Nirvana, the band, the show, the movie really is a kind of like going cold, expecting something fun. I don't think you need too much more than that. I know it sounds unwieldy or whatever, but just like I think you're going to have a pretty good time.

44:51If you trust our opinion at all, take this recommendation. Yes. Don't look it up. Go in. And I really, really doubt there is any chance you will be disappointed. In theaters, February 13th. Get your tickets now. Get your tickets. Nirvana, the man, the show, the movie.

45:15Can we talk about the Netflix of this all a bit? Yeah. Okay. So Netflix has been trying now. What is that? I get the discs in the mail and then I send them back. You send them back, but they make sure they're all scratched up first. That's like part of my expectation. When I moved apartments most, so like five years ago, my last move, I found one Netflix DVD. It was like in a box or something. Could you ever guess what it is? Was it Asia Argento's Scarlet Diva? Because that was the one I had sitting around for like several, maybe like a year without having not watched. I wish it was. That would be better.

45:53It was a movie called The Switch that basically centers around Jason Bates and Seaman as it pertains to Jennifer Aniston. A movie I never watched, but I had the DVD for some reason forever. Yeah, I don't know if I ever watched Scarlet Diva. No, do you know what I did? Because she directed it. There is a long scene in which she just puts on her own eye makeup. And I'm like, that is auteurism. I was going to say, we can co-opt the Blank Check Patreon and we'll do a watch along to the Switch and yours. Everyone will love it. But yes, the Netflix. So Netflix has been trying now for Oscars for... Since...

46:31What? Roma? I guess. Like before Roma? Before Roma. Like it's been, I think, a solid decade at this point, right? and I do get the feeling that maybe like not that they're going to stop doing this anytime soon but maybe like a certain amount of of like investment in this is they're starting to question you know like the years in which they just did this enormous spend on a bunch of stuff including movies that like no one expected to go anywhere like The King say which they did like they were like obligated to do a certain like push, awards push. It was at Venice. It was supposed to be Timmy's coronation or another one of those coronations.

47:16It did not go anywhere. So I don't know. In this case, we have like a kind of classic Netflix situation, which is to say they had like a bunch of movies that on paper looked like they were made to win Oscars. Noah Baumbach, Catherine Bigelow, you know, oh, Edward Berger, who's all quiet. Exactly. And all of those movies turned out to be non-existent. Yeah. In one case, this never made J. Kelly. No, they said they were going to. They announced it. Yeah. Everyone got too busy. They never got around to it. George Clooney. He's got a lot going on. He's got kids now. Yeah. The only one of this slate of movies that has gotten traction in ways that I think still kind of surprise us is Frankenstein of like the movies that they produce.

47:55That's a doc, so it's different. Yeah. I mean, you know, it's got a lot of authenticity behind it. But yeah. And then Train Dreams, which they bought at Sundance. Oh, and then K-pop Demon Hunters, which they bought off of Sony. Sony, who clearly had never expected that it would become a phenomenon that it did. And I don't, maybe it wouldn't have in the same way if they had put it out like as a release, you know, in a kind of, like, I don't know. Like, maybe. My hunch is that it, you know, I hate to even say this. I think it needed the accessibility of streaming to take off the way it did. Yeah, because people kind of saw the combination of things it was promising.

48:33Kids loved it. Then you can rewind and play the fucking song again. I mean, it's a fucking song. It's a great song. It's a great song. Great songs, plural. Yeah, those songs. And at home you can do it. And then it builds snowballs into a thing that then you're like, okay, for your 19th viewing, we're going to see it in a theater because they put it in a theater. Right. And it made a lot of money that way. It did. But yeah, like Netflix has not had a great time developing stuff in-house that has been Oscar-y. I mean, look, they have, I think I just did a count. They have 11 Best Picture nominations since 2019.

49:07But then when you actually look, and I'm not maligning these films necessarily, you got your Manx, you got your Irishman's, you've got your Trials of the Chicago Sevens, you've got your, well, Emilia Perez's, your Maestro's. I mean, those are movies that have their merits. I really like some of those movies. I don't hate any of those movies. Don't look up. I do hate. but they're not like you know the movies of that year they have not really found that yet I think Roma weirdly their first came closest to that in some ways though also maybe Emilia Perez last year because it was the villain of that year well I think and so Netflix has been I mean a kind of ongoing Oscar villain in terms of the industry because of how they've been perceived as increasingly as just eroding you know the foundations of Hollywood and kind of pushing everyone.

50:00And also like social life in the world. Yes, right, right. About being like... They were third spaces, third places. Yeah, I never forget, was it Ted Sarandos, I think, who said, no, like years and years ago, just a quote that has etched into my brain forever, that Netflix's main competitor is not like the other studios. Netflix's main competitor is sleep. That is one of those things where you're like, no, keep that to the investor meeting. And they finally killed Morpheus got to sleep. Don't say those things out loud. Yeah. But so, and of course, like Netflix this year is being set up as like one of two villains competing to buy Warner Brothers.

50:33You know, I feel like I don't know that anyone is taking like has like any like thing to root for in that. But like you have like Warner Brothers, which has this year of like having a defining year of like releasing these. An admirable, commendable, people should emulate year. Yes, like of like making these movies that are made from like incredible, like with real authorship that also like, you know, were incredible theatrical experiences and that people were talking about and that made money, if not maybe as much money as some people would have liked. But like, like true cultural phenomenon, like proof of like cinema being like alive and well.

51:06And of course, then the result. You're talking about Minecraft, right? Of course. Yeah. Hey, do you know what? Minecraft, kids came out to see it. They were screaming chicken jockey stuff at the screen. And our coal production is up through the roof because of all these new minors we have in our country. But yeah, so I feel like, I don't know, how much do you think that a general skepticism slash dislike of Netflix, which I mean, the Netflix opening gets booed sometimes when their films play at festivals. Oh, yeah? Oh, especially overseas. I mean, well, you don't see it at Cannes because they won't show them anymore.

51:45Because France has literal laws about what can play at Cannes. It has to be theatrical at some point. And so Netflix had one year where they had movies. It was like Okja and Meyerowitz stories and a couple other things. And that was it. I mean, looking at their Best Picture nominees, I'll just read them. Roma in 2019. Well, so the 2018 movie. So this is the ceremony. Roma 2019, 2020 The Irishman, 2020 Marriage Story. 2021 was both Mank and Trial of the Chicago 7, a COVID year. which Ben Netflix benefited from. 2022 Don't Look Up and The Power of the Dog. 2023 All Quiet on the Western Front. 2024 Maestro.

52:28Last year Amelia Perez. This year Train Dreams. Looking at all of those I'm like there are maybe two Power of the Dog and Roma where those kind of were the assumed Best Picture winners at some point in their seasons. And then I can't help but and they both won Best Director. I can't help but think a Netflix bias ultimately made them come up short. Yeah. And I feel like that bias is only more powerful now. You're telling me if Roma had been a focus features thing or a Searchlight movie, that would not have won Best Picture? I think it probably would have. Also, remember how much money Netflix spent on Roma?

53:09Like, that is the one thing that they also— They invented a whole country called Mexico. I mean, it's crazy. Fully canceled. I went to the party for Roma at Toronto and it was like decked out. It was. They were not kidding around. Enormously. Yeah. I mean, like no one spends like Netflix does on these things. They still they have like a ability to splash out on this stuff in ways that like no one else does. And I mean, I think that's a benefit. But also I think people resent that. Like, you know, like that, like just throwing enormous amounts, trying to like looking like you're trying to buy an Oscar.

53:44Yeah. Why do they want one so badly? Because everyone wants like a, they want a trophy. Everyone wants approval. Everyone wants their peers to tell them they are not just really successful, but also so good at what they do. I don't, I mean, I know for a fact. And it would help attract further filmmakers. Right, right. I mean, like they have such a kind of, they've had so much pushback from filmmakers who lately, you know, like there was such a narrative for a long time, like the accessibility narrative. Like, oh, nothing will put you out there. Like, get your film out there. Like, like Netflix.

54:14You'll be available instantly around the world. But the truth is, as we have seen, things on Netflix come and go really quickly. They have a much shorter life in the conversation with rare exceptions. And also it's just a platform that suits itself to series much more. Series get better, do much better on there. People seem to look for them more. but I think like right like Bella Bajari who is like the the kind of head of like Netflix's original productions now famously said in a New Yorker profile like that what they were looking to make now is the gourmet cheeseburger right the thing that like goes down very easily but is like nicely made and I think that you could argue whether they've actually achieved that I feel like maybe they're aiming closer to maybe just a regular old McDonald's hamburger at this point with a lot of their stuff at best maybe a microwaved White Castle slider from the frozen food station?

55:09Amtrak cheeseburgers. Speaking of French. I really like those cheeseburgers, though. There's something really good about them. Well, because they're a specific kind of food. I know. They're not a cheeseburger. They're an Amtrak cheeseburger. But, so, like, you know, you are putting out stuff that I think a lot of people internally, even no matter how much you've drunk the Kool-Aid with regard to, like, Netflix's kind of branding and dominance, I think a lot of people will be like, yeah, I know a lot of this stuff is just slop. So I think to counter that, they really, really want to be told, oh, this Harlan Coben series that has been on the top 10 in streaming, it's also Emmy-worthy.

55:44They really want to be told the stuff that they're doing already, because it's so popular, is also worthy of prizes. I have heard anecdotally that they are trying to, there's a concerted effort that I think like something like The Beast and Me represented last fall. That like, they're like, we need to have some TV shows that look good. Yeah. Because we're losing that upper tier audience of like snoots, you know, who are like, I'm not going to watch, you know, Georgia or whatever that show, you know, like, I'm not going to go down that level. Because they want to own everybody. Right. And if they don't make stuff that is respectable and looks good in TV or film, they're going to lose a certain contingent of people to the glossier stuff.

56:28I also think that, as Elon Musk teaches us, it is not enough to own everything and be the richest entity in the world. You also want to be funny enough. You want to be like, everyone likes me. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I think also, you know, like Ben and Matt, my close personal friends, you know, have just made a Netflix original movie called The Rip that, of course, is going to be an Oscar contender next year. Best Rip. Best Rip. Got that sewn up. Best Joe Carnahan movie of the year. They went on Joe Rogan and they said something out loud that I feel like I've only ever seen reported, but like not attributed to a source, which is that they were like, yeah, you know, they were telling us like, one, it's really good to have like a big action set piece in the first five minutes of the movie because like we need people to stick around.

57:16But two, it would be good if people could reiterate the plot a few times, like because people are watching while on their phones. And that is something that I feel like has existed in a place of like semi-confirmed, like, oh, we know this to be true. But mostly with TV series. Yes. So to have actual, not just like name people who have made this, but like big old movie stars be like, yes, we were told that you need to say like what's happening in the plot more because people might not be paying attention. In a two hour movie. Yeah. I think that that is one of the reasons that people are very increasingly skeptical.

57:50Is that why Joel Alderton keeps saying I'm having a train dream? Yes, exactly. And then he goes, chug it, chug it, chug it, chug it. And they did that in anticipation of being bought by Netflix. They were like, let's just do it. That's also why there's that really kind of shocking giant action set piece in the start of the movie that we never go back to. When they find the rip. Yeah. Yeah. And he just shoots up so many people with a machine gun. And then we never talk about that again. And then Felicity Jones is like, wake up, you're having a train dream. He's like, chug it, chug it. What? No, that's so depressing and not surprising.

58:24But they're going to have to figure out a way to balance that sort of algorithmic thinking or like like not even algorithmic thinking, but like really grim like AI understanding of human behavior, which may be accurate. With like this other thing where they are trying to attract top tier filmmakers. They haven't. It's debatable whether they lost Scorsese because he did go to Apple. He did Irishman with them. Then he went to Apple to do Flower Moon. But the thing about Flower Moon is it costs like 900 million dollars to make. And even Netflix was like, I don't know about that. You know, Fincher has stayed loyal to them for the most part.

59:01They've, you know, they've, Campion probably is grateful for, you know, they got her an Oscar by, you know, they didn't get her. She did. But like, but I do think when they have a year like this year where, I don't know, if I'm Catherine Bigelow, I could be like, why'd you make my movie look like shit? or if I'm Noah Baumbach, I'm like, you marketed this wrong or, you know, bubble, you know, there are ways that Netflix could be blamed for the failures of some of its most high profile things. And then also be like, but wait, this tiny little movie you bought at Sundance, that's the one that got Oscars?

59:37So it's bad for like attracting the A-list talent in some ways, but also if Netflix is a big content moth sucking everything into it, this just gives them more evidence when they sit down with a filmmaker at this year's Sundance, which I currently am at, and they say, come with us, let us buy your movie, your little movie, they can be like, well, look what we did for Clint in Train Dreams. Yeah, though I also feel like there are so many counterexemples where they bought something and it just plopped on there and then vanished into everything. There are tons. Right, yeah. I always think about this filmmaker, Sarah Colangelo.

1:00:06Do you know who that is? No. And Netflix is probably to the blame. She made a remake of the movie The Kindergarten Teacher with Maggie Gyllenhaal. Yes. Which is an incredible performance that should have gotten all the way to Oscar nomination, 100%. She's incredible. It's also a really well-made movie. Netflix buys it. It completely disappears. Sarah Colangelo's next film, a really sturdy post-9-11 drama called Worth with Michael Keaton, a great Stanley Tucci, a really good Amy Ryan, was at Sundance. Wasn't like one of the big hits at the festival, but I really liked it. Other people did too. They buy it, completely bury it, release it a year and change later on September 11th.

1:00:46or at least around September 11th. Yeah. They did that twice at the same filmmaker. Yeah. And if I'm her, I'd be drunk at, like, industry parties being like, don't go to, don't go to Netflix. I mean, like, Richard Linklater, whose movie, Nouvelle Vogue, got bought by them. Like, like, he, when they bought his animated film, Apollo 10 and a Half. Oh, right. Right. A movie that might as well not exist. It, like, it, you know, they, they dropped it on Netflix. It got no attention at all. He, in interviews afterwards, complained about that. But then, of course, when Netflix came around and threw up tens of millions of dollars or whatever on the table for Hitman, his investors were like, nope, that's what we're taking.

1:01:26And Hitman is a movie that I think would have had a much longer and more kind of storied life if it had gotten a theatrical release, a real theatrical release. It played so well in the room. Especially because at Venice, yeah, I saw it at the Venice premiere and people applauded Min movie at that one big scene yeah and he had done an interview for the festival that i read i think before i saw the movie where he was like i noticed that there aren't a lot of fun saturday night date movies existing so i wanted to make you know hitman be that the presumption the the the implication being you leave your house with your partner yeah and then an hour later it was like Netflix buys it.

1:02:08No one's leaving their house ever again. It's depressing. The whole reason that movie existed was something that Netflix immediately squashed. Yes. And then this year, they bought Nouvelle Vague, one of his two movies. And I think a really fun, delightful movie. Played well in Cannes, if you can imagine. Yes. Yeah, somehow. Of the two of his movies this year, it was maybe the least easily awards-y one, though there were one or two plays they might have made. But they bought it, And it really, yes, like, again, might as well not exist. Whereas Blue Moon, his other movie this year, with, like, a very kind of, like, Oscar-y central performance and this, it, like, it has gotten traction.

1:02:48Yeah. I mean, the new vlog thing is interesting because, like, after I saw that at Cannes, I was getting drinks with, like, Kyle Buchanan and a couple other people being like, well, Netflix buys that, obviously, right? Like, that would be their foreign language play, whatever. And we were right. But I don't think any of us at that table would have predicted that, like, come post-nominations, it would have nothing. Like, it just didn't, like, it doesn't mean... But the thing is, also, like, it was not a good foreign language play because... Because France wasn't going to pick it. France wasn't going to pick it.

1:03:13Right. And so, and France, you know, chose a Panahi film. Of a movie set in France and about France. Of course. And so, like, yeah, it really, it was a confusing pick for them. But, yeah, if I were Richard Linklater, I would be like, ugh. Yeah. I'm so tired of having to pretend this is like a great thing when I swoop in.

1:03:42Ding dong, ding dong. Oh my God. Hello, Creek. Hey, how's it going? And who are you? Mac Black. And what's that? That's my name. You asked who am I and that's my name. What are you doing here? What do you want? I'm a construction worker, obviously. as you can tell from my general demeanor, temperament, and this hard hat here. Yeah. I'm sure you've noticed the interruption, the sound. Yeah, I guess I... Jack Hammers. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. We've been hearing some construction noise. In the building. Mm-hmm. But I've been struggling. Yes. What's the matter? This construction project's not going well.

1:04:18I have no idea what's going on. I explained to you my name is Mac Black. I'm a construction worker. I've been working in the building. He's winding up. He's winding up. He's winding up. Literally. I don't know what's going on in your life. I knocked on the door. I open. I'm interrupting. I don't know what's going on in your life. You're struggling. What's going on? This construction project's not going well. Okay. Okay. Been trying to build a better wardrobe. There it is. Yeah. And so what you're referring to, of course, is the sort of the furniture, the physical thing. Incorrect. That's a weird assumption for you to make.

1:04:49I'm talking about pieces that work together and hold up over time. Well, Mac, we've got news for you. Come on in. Take a seat. I have a pair of pants and I've been jackhammering them for months and nothing's coming together. We have ad copy people can't see with prompts that are a little esoteric. And one of the people who works for our show responds to those prompts in interesting ways. But nobody knows what like it's like going to an improv show where you didn't hear what someone yelled out. David, excuse me. I'm sorry to interrupt. Mac doesn't know any of that. He's living his own life. You're right.

1:05:20Mac is such a he's such a thoughtfully realized character. Thank you. I'm a construction worker, surly demeanor, hard hat, and I've been taking the jackhammer. Is Mac short for Macintosh? Absolutely. Macintosh, Blackintosh. That's pretty funny. Thank you. Quince has the everyday essentials. You got to go to Quince to get a good wardrobe. Well, that's the recommendation I've been waiting for. What took you so long? Shut your chest. Turn his mic off. Quince has the everyday essentials I love with quality of the last, organic cotton sweaters, Polos for every occasion. Lighter jackets to keep you warm in the changing seasons.

1:05:53List goes on. I love Quince. I've got a nice quarter zip that I've been sporting around. Well, well, well. You're looking pretty smart if I dare say so myself. You know, they got obviously very, very cheap and comfortable cashmere stuff. Merino stuff. A lot of good. I got myself a cashmere scarf from Quince. It's cold in New York City. You need to bundle. Now, I'm a little bit wary. Quince sounds good, but is this one of those companies that works with bottom factories and cuts in the middlemen? No, they're top only. Top factories cutting out the middlemen. Oh, that's the exact opposite. Just to be very clear.

1:06:31Yes. That's what I was worried about. You're not paying for brand markup. It's just quality clothing. Everything's built to hold up to daily wear and look good season after season, okay? And let's not forget that, of course, every night I sleep under a Quince comforter and Quince sheets. So it's not just your wardrobe. Everything. Everyday life. Ben, can I say how much I appreciate that I feel like you're making the effort to communicate with me? You're making eye contact. You're giving me recommendations. What can I say? Unlike Silver Spoon Sims over here. Refresh your wardrobe with Quinz. Go to quinz.com slash check for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns.

1:07:05Now available in Canada too. That's quince.com slash check. Free shipping and 365 day returns. Quinz.com slash check. That's great news because I live in London, Ontario. Mac, see you later, man. By the way, big fan of The Pod.

1:07:23So my question now would be, nominations are out. We've got, you know, just under two months before the big show. If you're Netflix, you've got Frankenstein, who is like this big lumbering object you spent a billion dollars on and maybe has a good chance of winning in some craft categories. Maybe that's it. Do you devote all of your attention to that, or do you try to keep the train dreams flame lit? Train dream alive? Yeah, do you try to keep the train dream alive? I don't know. I think at this point, they do have a lot of very experienced, well-paid people who now are just going to have only two things to focus their energy on.

1:08:05Who are talented and lovely, I should add. Yes, yes. I do like them. So I feel like, I don't know. I mean, like, I don't think they really stand much of a chance in terms of, and it is funny that, like, in terms of, like, adapted screenplay, they're competing against each other. But I don't know. This is another year where they don't have a Best Picture this year. Like, and I really did think this summer, looking at their upcoming slate, like, Bomb Back Stew, White Noise was just a weird little bobble. like j kelly is gonna like do what marriage story couldn't or it'll be campy and again or it'll be this edward burger film no one knows anything about or it'll be a frankenstein if frankenstein's good um and now it's like oh i don't think they have you know there's not even close no there's no and and and no wonder now they're trying to buy the studio that's like eating their lunch you know it just feels very right right and i guess that's that's the interesting question then is like in a future uh in which that deal goes through presumably it will um that uh do you feel like netflix like a warner brothers win under under the auspices of netflix however they're going to start calling things like i don't know what does that look like like do we do people still feel like they're rooting for warner brothers in that context i mean like super intra-industry if there are people they know still working there maybe yeah but like but no i mean because like any promise that netflix is making and look netflix puts out plenty of things i like i don't like hate the company but like but you know anything that they're putting out like that they're not gonna actually do real theatrical releases for warner brothers movies for very long if they do it at all you know i'm sorry i mean maybe i'm wrong i'll stand corrected if that actually does happen but like everyone knows that the erosion will happen inevitably and probably quickly you know and so no i think that you kind of lose a major player off the the kind of award studio board um when it comes to awards yeah for sure um one last question do we think that netflix pushes hard for being like come see train dreams in at this screening because it does obviously play better in a in a theory being yeah um but yeah i don't i can't even imagine i mean i guess maybe that's why i didn't like train dreams on third viewing because i i watched it at home yeah but um i think they will i think that they probably think they've got a shot in cinematography which is i don't think they're wrong yeah um they have the song right the original song got nominated the cave i think right um i mean obviously we know what's gonna win that it's the song from vivo verde but um yeah i i think maybe they make a cinematography play yeah yeah and then they say to clint bentley like we'll make your next movie and uh you know i mean it is just funny you're like, oh, you've got, you've just spent a billion dollars for a potential Best Cinematography Award.

1:10:54Well, look, you know, that's how this thing, that's the train, baby. Get on or get off. Or just be a cog in this whole industry. Yeah. I feel bad that I was mean about train dreams. I don't, again. You should not feel bad. I just really, just come smite it from above. I just have this vision of it as this kind of guy I don't like. You know? Yeah. No, he didn't do anything particularly wrong. No, I just saw him on Instagram and I was like, I don't like you.

1:11:26That's it. Yeah.

1:11:34Critical Darlings is a Blank Check production in association with Vulture. Hosted by Alison Wilmore and Richard Lawson. Produced by Benjamin Frisch. Executive produced by Griffin Newman and Neil Janowitz. Video production and distribution by Anne Victoria Clark, Wolfgang Ruth, and Jennifer Jean.