Dead Poets Society with Nia DaCosta

11:43David Sims:He's fitting the dress code for the first time. We've always recommended a dress code here on Blank Check that we fail to abide by. But Ben has shown up in his finest morning school wears.

11:55Griffin Newman:Yeah, wearing a striped tie. I have a nice brown sports jacket on, some loafers. Yes. I guess the only thing I'm wearing, denim, that wouldn't be allowed at a prep school. You have your glasses on. At my school, you got to wear, well, my first boarding school, every other Saturday we had a class for a half day, which obviously is terrorism. That's so rude. Yeah, that's actually the worst thing I've ever heard in my life. I know, it's terrible. And then, but we got to wear jeans, wear casual dress. Oh, yes, yes, you got to, right, sure, sure, sure. I had to wear a uniform, which is so common in Britain, private school, public school.

12:29Griffin Newman:Like, it's like, I think it's still kind of the norm for so many schools. I've said St. Ann's, was it recommended that you should really, like, just wear, like, whatever household objects?

12:41David Sims:I have shared this before, but in my freshman year at St. Ann's, the horrible school I went to. Where's St. Ann's? At Brooklyn Heights. Prep school?

12:50Griffin Newman:It's like a fancy school with no homework. The fanciest fucking... Oh, water story energy? Yeah, kind of. I mean, like, it was once back in the... It thinks it's better than that. It was founded as, we're going to be alternative. It was founded as, what if you build a whole school

13:04David Sims:out of John Keatings? Right. But also, maybe half of those John Keatings were sexual predators. Well, that's what we'll find out later. Yeah.

13:10Griffin Newman:But now it's just a very fancy... There's lots of rich people in Brooklyn who want to send their kids to fancy private schools.

13:16David Sims:I, as some weird meta-conceptual bit, being the most annoying, precocious child at the worst school, in freshman year, wore my own version of a school uniform for months. Sounds cool. That was my big act of rebellion of like, you're all so fucking rebellious. I'm going to dress like I'm part of the book. You're sheep. There was. Ben Griffin. So I did kind of dress the way Ben's dressed today. Ben doesn't look impressed. No. Our guest today returning to the show for the fourth time. Fourth appearance? Yes. Nia DaCosta. Hello. We are recording this very far in advance because you're a very, very busy woman.

13:55David Sims:Well, you're around

13:55Griffin Newman:and you got a couple of movies in the can.

13:57David Sims:We've recorded with directors who were like, oh, and by the time this episode comes out, your movie will have come out. You were the first person where we're recording at a point where by the time the episode comes out, two films will have come out. That's crazy, yeah. When does Hedda come out? Director of Hedda and 28 Days Later, colon, The Bone Temple. Yeah, I like to go 28 years later. Excuse me, sorry. Part two, The Bone Temple, and then ask everyone, where does the colon go? these are the questions I noticed the most the new trailer that just came out at the time we're recording this didn't have the part two it doesn't I just like to add it okay I we went to see the film Hedda I'm sorry well we saw Hedda but also when Ben and I saw it 28 years later yes right at the end the lights come up right after there's the the big the Jimmies uh huh this crazy ending yes And Ben turns to me and he goes, I like how random that ending was, but part of me just wishes I could watch an entire movie of that.

14:58David Sims:And I said, Ben, do I have great news for you? It's already in the can. It's directed by our friend and it's subtitled The Bone Temple. And it was like his eyes turned into like three sevens.

15:09Griffin Newman:My eyes started turning into like a slot machine and it just landed on bones. You're talking flopped out of your mouth. Yeah, exactly. Yes. I will say tonally, my film is quite different from the energy of that scene. But yeah, the Jimmies are a focal point in the film. And they're just... Is the bone temple going to be okay? I understand you probably can't answer this question.

15:33David Sims:Also, just to be clear, by the time this episode comes out, we will have recorded an episode on us having seen the film.

15:39Griffin Newman:I'm like, they're going to fuck up all his bones. Let's keep the bones intact. He worked so hard on that. It is okay, man. Okay, great. Thank God. That's actually great news. I'm actually buoyed by that. That's great.

15:49David Sims:We saw Hedda, though. Oh, thank you for going. Thank you so much. Which I love. Thank God. Which sucks. No, no, no. It's actually awesome. Yes. Thank you. I really loved it. I did ask your dad. I said, did Griffin like it? He met my dad as well. Yeah, which is amazing. Yes. My dad also loved it. Let's talk about the Dead Poets Society. Come on, guys. Okay, so you go to boarding school. Yeah, I went to boarding school. Does this happen after your parents' divorce? Where is this in the timeline? I want to put all this together. My parents got divorced when I was nine. Okay. I know I was very disrespectful, but thank God they did.

16:20Okay, fair enough. Yes, you're right. It was the right thing. I went to boarding school for eighth through 12th grade. Okay. But I was in private school when I was younger, and then public school for a bit right after my parents' divorce. And my mother's huge on education, and she was like, we're not doing this anymore. She was like, you know, like in New York City, you have to go to the school where you're living. Yes. And so the first thing we tried was she gave her office address so I can go to a better school downtown. Okay. And like day one, they were like, can we have Nia Dacosta come to the principal's office, please?

16:49Fucking. They were like, get out. Oh, they rumbled you. Yeah, they did. But then I ended up going to Robert Wagner on the Upper East Side. Okay. And then when it came time to leave.

16:59David Sims:Because you grew up in Harlem? Yeah. More or less. Yeah. Yeah. I was born in Brooklyn. Raised mostly in Harlem. Had a stint in Queens. East or West? West. Okay. So I was like kind of like near 145th ABCD station. Yeah, exactly. And we, I think seventh and sixth and seventh grade, my mom was like, you know, we can do better. And so we started looking at private schools. I almost went to Spence. Wow. Which would have been, I think I would have been a shell of a person.

17:25Griffin Newman:I don't, these, you know, upper crust, upper upper crust places. I can't imagine what the kids are like. No, I know some Spence girls and they're like, you escaped.

17:36David Sims:Spence has some dead poet society energy. I'm sure.

17:39Griffin Newman:I met a girl who went to one of those schools. I don't think it might have been. Nightingale Bamford. Yeah. And like, I was like, oh, I grew up in New York. Like, you know, I said something about how I always loved taking the subway as a kid because I did. This came up. Sure. And she was like, yeah, I never took the subway until I was a grown up. And I was, it was just, I was like, and you went to school, like, fucking, you know, across the park from where I grew up. And like, you'd never ever, like, it was like a whole other life. Sorry? How old were you for your first subway ride? A baby, I imagine.

18:11Griffin Newman:I don't know. Solo, solo. Oh, that's a good question. You know, I started, well, I had moved to London by then. Yeah. But I started taking myself to school when I was 10. Yeah. And my guess would be that would be like when I was first. Yeah, mine was nine.

18:23David Sims:See, my thing was, right, 9-11 happens when I'm 12. I feel like I had just started to get independent subway rights, and then I got knocked back. Then there was a year my parents being like, the subway is going to be blown up. You cannot get on it. My parents are weirdly fucking not subway riders. What neighborhood did you grow up in? I grew up in the West Village, but they're just crazy people. My dad would fucking like would lease a car and drive it everywhere and just be upset all the time. This is what I'm talking about. But he lived in New York for decades. So I had to like come by my love of the subway.

19:02David Sims:Yeah. On your own time. Not that they didn't take me on it, but it was not there. Yeah. Ben, you want to weigh in? Yeah.

19:07Griffin Newman:I just wanted to share. I actually went to an unprepped school. Oh. Where are you from, Ben? You were unprepped. Oh, I'm so sorry. Yeah. Continue. Yeah. They wanted you not prepared for anything. It was an unprepare-tory school. Yeah, good. I left and I didn't know what the fuck I was going to do. It is so rude that prep schools, you know, like I never went to a prep school, but like they're like, we're prep schools. The backhanded implications. Are schools not generally supposed to prepare?

19:35David Sims:It's the Fairsley difference.

19:37Griffin Newman:Why do you get to be the prep school? We always have apples. I never thought about that. Anyway, I assume it's probably rooted in some, you know, awful thing a Victorian person said. A public or something dark. But were you in, like, what kind of Jersey were you in? So just an hour outside of the city. My city. This city. Yeah, in my city. Sorry, I was just like, I just started thinking about Jersey cities. So extremely suburban.

20:00David Sims:Yeah, like kind of near Patterson, that area. Okay, okay, yeah. It was a small area, only a couple bone temples. Not like a major hub. What boarding school did you end up going to? I went to the Rumsey Hall School in Connecticut. Okay. And then I went to the master school in Westchester.

20:18Griffin Newman:That's an intense name for a school. The master school? Yeah. It used to be all girls. Elizabeth Masters was the founder of the school. There we go. It wasn't like we're going to be masters of the universe. Or it wasn't like big Paul Thomas Anderson fans where they were just like. No, no, thank God. Founded in 2013. No sad handjobs. Actually, probably. We're high school students after all. I'm sure a sad handjobs are too. You cannot. You cannot promise. I know. That's absolutely. In the math resource center.

20:42David Sims:no because we knowing you had like a back to back press tours coming up and you were going to be in town now we gave you like the schedule for the whole first six months yeah of 26 and you threw out a couple but we were immediately like Dead Poets is interesting not knowing the level of connections well that was what was so crazy because I literally and I guess we can talk about the movie now but I literally when I got to the Yelp scene I was like oh my god Mr. Ketchum made us go outside and Yelp I was like and I'm like he was so what is this word

21:13Griffin Newman:you are using yeah

21:16David Sims:the thing he makes Ethan Hawke yeah the primal a primal y 'all but Mr. Ketchum was your Mr. Keaton absolutely Ash Ketchum yeah and I was Ash Ketchum who taught you how to rear Pokemon he taught me how to rear Pokemon and rear and the Griffin in this episode but he was he was amazing and my when I started I think we were in eighth grade in the equivalent of whatever aping should be for an eighth grader. But we were reading like Faulkner and Walt Whitman and E.E. Cummings and William Carlos Williams. And now that I look back at it, I'm like, oh, of course we're yopping. Like, Arbor Bark, yopping around, you know, whatever.

21:54It's like, so I was like, oh, he's clearly watched this movie and he's obsessed.

21:58David Sims:When did you see it? The first time? Yeah. Well, it was on TV a lot, wasn't it? Yeah. I saw it on TV in high school. Yeah. Absolutely. I never, I have the same experience of Sound of Music where it's so long because of the commercials that you never get to the Nazis. I never got to the suicide. And so I rewatched it a couple of years ago. And I was like, no, what's happening? It's fair.

22:22Griffin Newman:It was so crazy. Yeah. Because I feel like, right, everyone's like, yeah, but he gets fired and they all get on their desks, right? Yeah. I mean, that's sort of what everyone references with Poets Society. Yeah. I saw this film when I was like 12 or 13 years old. I rented it with my friend Saba. And she loved Ethan Hawke. And she was like going through an Ethan Hawke phase. And she was like, I want to rent this movie from like, it was back in the day when you still would be like, we're going to go to the video store and rent a movie. And I was like, oh yeah, I've never seen that movie. I know that.

22:53Griffin Newman:That's like a good movie, right? And I watched it with her and I thought it was okay. And we both cried and I never saw it again. And then I watched it today. or not, you know, the other couple days ago. And I was kind of impressed by how, obviously it's a culturally significant, like it's in the air. Yeah. But I was like, damn, I remember like almost all of this. I haven't seen it in like 25 years. Yes. And it made me cry. When they said, oh, Captain, my captain. And I was kind of like, this is bullshit. Because like, I don't even like this movie that much. I'm like, man, I'm a pretty easy cry.

23:28Griffin Newman:But I'm like, I know they're going to do it. I'm not exactly like getting caught off guard by Oh Captain, My Captain

23:35David Sims:It's like kind of a magic trick movie in that sense where you're just like, you can't not get hit by that It did work me up I cried a couple times watching it And I have kids now You yell at your children every day that they gotta be doctors Yelling at twin babies

23:52Griffin Newman:It's just such a weird complex Where he's like, you can't be an amateur actor in any sense Also just like, I'm sorry

24:00David Sims:If your son is Robert Sean Leonard, you're not changing that path. He has the most fucking theater actor-y face. So true. No one has ever looked more like an actor and had the demeanor of an actor, the Robert Sean Leonard. Doesn't the acting thing come so late in the game? Pretty late. Because I was like, did I miss him mentioning liking acting before? He was like, it's my passion in life. No, it like finds him like halfway through. Right. And then he's immediately in the play. Yeah. He's sort of like, it feels like he auditions without having told you or anyone that it's a thing he's ever had.

24:29David Sims:desire for and he immediately is like which you know there are certain there is a type of actor who is like that who's just like yeah my friend asked me to like be in their short film now i'm actually think i might like start auditioning and stuff like maybe i want to do this um i i saw it in high school yeah uh similar to you like high school was just like cable movie channels all the time i'm like checklist obsessive i need to watch all the movies and anything like this that was referenced so much that I knew had Oscar nominations. It's like, that's stuff you have to cross off the list, right?

25:04David Sims:Hadn't seen it since then. David, I feel like at some point the last year or two of the podcast, it maybe came up in a box office game.

25:12Griffin Newman:It certainly did because the box office game we'll be playing is a movie we covered before, I think.

25:18David Sims:And you said, like, does Dead Poets Society suck? And I was a little surprised by that take, knowing that you love Peter Weir. Love Peter Weir. and honestly

25:26Griffin Newman:I love Robin Williams

25:27David Sims:you've been beating the drum for for so long and I love

25:31Griffin Newman:private preparatory education single set that's how I think it should be done

25:34David Sims:always not having seen this movie in 20 years I was like huh that the tech kind of sounds right I could buy that if I watch that now am I going to roll my eyes at all of this right and then I watched it last night and I was like I think this thing totally works I do not think it is one of Weir's best films and I agree with you that it's like what works is, I think, the decision and the control and the taste that he applies to it. But I also, like, I think this script works. I think it is like...

26:04Griffin Newman:No, I agree with that, that it works. It's a well... Yes, yes. It's a machine, like, that it does what it's supposed to do.

26:12David Sims:I was very ready for, in my mind's eye, not having seen since I was a teenager, being like, I'm going to be more cynical about this now. I'm going to have my bullshit meter up really high for like manipulation, you know? And I think the script is like pretty controlled. Now we'll talk about it. The guy had one of the most insane post-Oscar careers that we've discussed before. Peter Weir. No, not Peter Weir, the screenwriter who wins the Oscar for this.

26:38Griffin Newman:Tom Shulman. Yes. This was, wasn't this his first? Yes. You know, exactly. And he goes on.

26:45David Sims:It's a semi-autobiographical script that he.

26:47Griffin Newman:It's about a teacher who inspired him, yada, yada, yada. Right. He gets put on Honey, I Shrunk the Kids. His job is to make it a comedy. Is that right? Yes.

26:54David Sims:It was like a late rewrite thing. From the Stuart Gordon version, which I think was more sci-fi, which of course he wanted to call teeny weenies.

27:01Griffin Newman:And then it's like a bunch of big scripts. Well, two. What about Bob? Yeah. Which is, you know, it's a bad movie. It's a fun movie. It's kind of a hit. And Medicine Man, George Miller's Medicine Man. Sorry, John McTurney's Medicine Man. Right. That's why we talked about it. Horrendous. A horrendous movie.

27:19David Sims:I'm like, who the fuck wrote this movie? Should I watch it?

27:21Griffin Newman:Yeah, go ahead. Kind of. You know what? I kind of should watch it. I should watch all Dominic Tiernan's, yeah. You should. Yeah. Then he wrote and directed the film Eight Heads in a Duffel Bag. Bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing. A Joe Pesci comedy. Have you ever seen it? No. It's pretty fun. I should watch all the Joe Pesci's. There's like eight heads in a duffel bag. Tell me more. And so basically. Gets lost or something? I watched it. It gets lost. Joe Pesci plays a hit man. You know, I'll hold my questions until after I observe the film. His last. Yeah, fair enough. Yeah, you should hold your credit.

27:53Griffin Newman:His last... Oh, no, no. Jesus. Then it's Holy Man, the Eddie Murphy film.

27:57David Sims:Which I watched for the first time recently and is one of the most insane films I have ever watched. Wait, is that the... No, I'm thinking of Golden Child. Never mind. Yeah, Golden Child's all right. I enjoyed that. Holy Man. Holy Man is like almost impossible to describe. But it like feels like trying to make a Dead Poets Society for Eddie Murphy. It is weirdly like more of a drama and also much like Dead Poets Society. Eddie Murphy is maybe only in 30 minutes of the movie and Jeff Goldblum's actually the lead. Right. But the premise is that Eddie Murphy is like a weird spiritual guru they find on the side of the road who may be magical or is like a lunatic.

28:33David Sims:Someone with like mental illness and amnesia. I think I've seen this. And Jeff Goldblum is an exec who works for a cable shopping channel. Who like makes him a sort of TV star. And he puts him on the air and it almost becomes like a network thing where he like goes on these long rants like anti-consumerist rants. Interesting, yeah. But it makes the sales go up. so he's commodifying this it's insane insane movie is that do you think that was an inspiration for

28:55Griffin Newman:um one million merits absolutely good i love one million merits um welcome to mooseport is uh his final base basically his final credit recently and it's not a very good movie the which is gene

29:10David Sims:hackman's final film that guy just starts his career with like a fucking seismic he wins the Oscar for an original screenplay and then you're just like. That happens not infrequently. Absolutely. It's so interesting. Yeah. Yeah.

29:34David Sims:David. What's the matter? I'm going to share for you a horrifying tale. Uh-oh. A tale of woe and suffering. Whoa, this is scary. It's a tale of human error. A failing on my part. Tell me. We went to the Wisconsin Film Festival. Sure. Visited our dear researcher, JJ Birch. I'm scared already. Participated in a screening. We dined out. We had fried cheese curds. We drank Wisconsin beer. What was the mistake? Tell me. I forgot to pack my... Oh, Jesus. AG1.

30:02Griffin Newman:You didn't bring your AG1 to Wisconsin? This is a fuck. This is an ad read.

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30:52David Sims:Anytime I get thrown off of the routine, I am reminded just how helpful it is to me getting through any day. Yes.

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32:21Griffin Newman:do you want me to open the dossier why not okay uh yes okay so tom shulman uh was uh disheartened i guess the early arc of his career trying to be a hollywood screenwriter he was writing stuff probably trying to get stuff sold, right? You know, he was just writing genre stuff and comedies and whatever. And he writes dead poets, not thinking of it as a commercial script, but more, you know... Colin Card writing sample. Paying homage to this teacher he had. He said, a very volcanic teacher who would talk about theater and acting and movies, and we'd all go out to drinks, and, you know, he imbued me and my...

32:59Griffin Newman:Not him and the teacher, I think, him and the other students, but they were all, like, you know, fired up by this teacher.

33:03David Sims:That's like that classic story of like someone's trying to break through in Hollywood. No one will open the door for them. And then, you know, someone gives them the advice of just like, write the movie that only you can write. What's the personal story that only you have? Yeah. That's the thing.

33:18Griffin Newman:Right.

33:22Griffin Newman:So he's got all this nostalgia. He went to Montgomery Bell Academy in Nashville, Tennessee. Okay. and he also I guess had a stern dad who didn't want him to you know be a Hollywood or whatever didn't want him to be in Hollywood right

33:36David Sims:no son of mine will ever put heads in a duffel bag the real teacher's name is

33:40Griffin Newman:Samuel F. Pickering Jr. and much like the character in Dead Poets Society he was an alum who had returned as a teacher and much like Dead Poets Society he left pretty quickly I'm not sure if he got fired or anything but like he moved on and then he ends up at the University of Connecticut he becomes a bit of a minor celebrity after this movie comes out obviously because he's the real dead poet society guy shulman decides to set the film in the 50s even though he this i think had more of this experience in the 60s he'd been born in the in 1950 i do think this movie is has no sense of when it's set i agree and it sort of gets away with it because boarding schools are weird and hermetic and like trapped in time or whatever but i i'm like i think it's hoberman's review i was reading old reviews of it and Hoberman was like this movie's set in the 50s?

34:28Griffin Newman:There's no sense of that. There's no music. There's no sense of what's going on in the world.

34:35David Sims:I'm truly wondering if I clocked it until you're saying that right now. I would say I think a third or two thirds into the film someone mentions it's 1950 something and I was like oh yeah that makes sense. Maybe I wikied it actually.

34:50Griffin Newman:First he writes it more about the teacher. He returns to the script. He revises it. Makes it more about the students, you know, which there you go. And he thinks about Neil as the sort of student that goes too far. I guess is sort of whatever. Too far doing what? I don't know. Getting too into acting. I mean, this script is so... This interview is making me feel justified. No, no, no. Carry on, carry on. But I totally get that, but I think it's like, I was thinking about The Holdovers when I was watching it.

35:22David Sims:Yes. And I think that feeling of the script being a bit like, what's happening? Why does it matter? And like the fact that all the boys have these completely different sort of needs and things that they do because they're inspired. And one of them is kissing a girl while she's sleeping, which is very distressing. It is. It is the element of this movie. Josh Charles being a creeper. It does make you kind of tip your head and go like, what's happening? I think that's inspirational. Yeah. This is like, I have to do it. I just, I'm so sorry. I had to. This is so distressing. But it feels very like, it's like vibes, you know?

35:58It's like we're in this place, man.

36:00David Sims:It certainly has a very kind of comforting autumnal feeling. Yes, exactly. And also this sort of, I know this movie is 89, but it feels like it's starting to synthesize the look that I feel like becomes the dominant 90s prestige drama look. Watch it. Yes. This kind of buttery golden color. Absolutely. Absolutely.

36:22Griffin Newman:I mean, and in this movie, again, it's got a great director. It's got an incredible John Seal, incredible DP. But anyway, he's taking the script around. Nothing's really happening. He's not getting any traction. And then at some point, Jeffrey Katzenberg at Disney calls and is basically like, I hear someone wants this script. I want it now. And he was basically like four million dollars. Like, give it to me immediately. Like, Jesus. Yeah, right. You know, and it basically became a one person bidding war. I guess so. Yeah. The way he puts it is everyone else had passed on the script and not really read it.

36:59Griffin Newman:Jeffrey had actually read it. And he had someone who's gone to private school. He had whatever, you know, resonated with him or whatever. And he just got super excited.

37:08David Sims:This is also fairly early Touchstone, which was such a big project for Eisner and Katzenberg and a lot of their thing and trying to find like what are the grown-up movies that Disney makes through this offshoot was like find good vehicles for depreciated stars. That was a lot of their strategy was like being like Richard Dreyfuss, Bette Midler, you know, like making Splash, you know, like what are the scripts that everyone else in town is passing on that we can make with someone who has name value but has a couple flops in a row. So you can get them for cheaper. It's like they'll be more interested in doing something of it.

37:44David Sims:Yeah, yeah. Yes. But you could see this script being a good vehicle for that kind of thing of like, you got this big showy teacher role that you could get a former A-lister to do without having to work that many gigs. Was Robin in that space in his career though at the time?

37:58Griffin Newman:Well, so let's get to that. He was hotter. Yeah, he's, okay. But they bring aboard Jeff Canu, of course, the director of Revenge of the Nerds, to direct this film. Katzenberg is so hot on this movie that they cannot find a star. and Katzenberg's like, don't worry about it. We'll find the star. Start scouting locations. Get ready. And so they're all set to go and then Disney finally is like, kill this project. There's no star. Like, what are you fucking doing? Yeah. And they all get summoned to the office and Katzenberg is like sort of monologuing about what a great job they did and Knews says, let's get on with it.

38:34Griffin Newman:I feel like I'm having my back rubbed until I die. And Katzenberg is like, okay, we're firing you. Sorry.

38:39David Sims:Now, JJ, who is not fired because he did his job correctly on this one, had alerted us a couple weeks ago. There was a crazy sentence on the Wikipedia and I need to research it. And what David just read is the actual researched answer to what happened. The way the Wikipedia recounts it, which is insane, is that they hired Jeff Canu, then hired Robin Williams, but Robin Williams didn't want to do the movie with him. So he signed on, then refused to show up to filming during the first day of shooting. So until they fired him and then they burned the sets down. That's what I read. And I was like, that's what I thought you were going to say.

39:17I don't think that's what happened. No, it's not what happened.

39:20David Sims:What you just read happened. Jeff Canu is fired.

39:23Griffin Newman:Liam's had been considered, but he'd never gotten attached. He's expensive. He's a big star. It was more like it was someone that they'd circle. I just don't even know how that Wikipedia story comes about. It's very dramatic. So then it gets shopped around. At a certain point, they are told that Knew can still direct it if they can get Alec Baldwin or Liam Neeson. Which is crazy. Neeson is crazy because he's not that famous. Has he done? Did he do that Julie Foster movie yet? He must have. No. No. That's later. That's like early 90s. It's an odd choice. I mean, he would be good. He would, boys.

39:58When did Taken come out? No, I'm kidding. Rip out those fucking pages. I miss, you know, actor. I do too.

40:07Griffin Newman:A very particular set of poems. And then occasionally you get it with silence or whatever.

40:11David Sims:Have you seen Naked Gun? No, I need to. It rules. But the thing that gets so right is how funny it is to have him say anything with that level of intensity. and they use both like taken intensity Neeson but also like Schindler's List intensity Neeson where it's like give him a fucking paragraph monologue of the dumbest shit in the world and just tell Neeson to play it like it's the most important thing ever that's like Andre Brower in Broken 99 it's exactly like that oh yeah yeah

40:41Griffin Newman:all this doesn't work out the rights revert back to Disney and about a year after Katzenberg is like Dustin Hoffman how about that I just saw him at Tiff? Yeah. At Megalopolis? Was it going like this? I still haven't seen it. I bought it and I'm like, I can't wait to watch and I just haven't brought myself to it. But yeah, I saw him. And I think Tessa had a moment where she's trying to like, they're trying to hug each other and then they tried to, she tried to like lift him. It was like very, he's very small. He's very old and small. Yeah. But I was like, Dustin, anyway, continue. He wanted to direct it and star in it, which sounds complicated.

41:19Griffin Newman:I agree. he's got a bit of a reputation even at this time for being kind of wishy-washy you know like he'll get involved in a project he'll get really nitpicky and perfectionist about it and then

41:32David Sims:he'll drop out but he actually only makes three movies in the 80s am i correct about that i feel like the 80s for him are ishtar it starts to get out of control and and rain man really he like slows way the fuck down, partly because he, like, freaks out over the failure of Ishtar and partly because he becomes so controlling that he kind of boxes himself out.

41:56Griffin Newman:I think he is legendarily controlling at that point. I'm going to give you the full list of movies he made in the 80s. Sorry. Because, like, his 60s and 70s are obviously a lot of good. It's Ishtar and Rayman and Family Business in 1989, right at the end there. So it's four. Four. And then there is also the Death of a Salesman that he does, first on stage and then TV. Sure, sure, sure. Which is very bad. Yes. And, you know, Hoffman is going crazy. Now, a big thing in the original script is that Keating is dying of cancer. Insane. Yeah, yeah. And Hoffman's like, I'm going to lose all this weight to portray this.

42:34Griffin Newman:Thank God they cut that out of the movie. Or, I mean, whatever. Or if you're going to have that, you also can't have a kid committing suicide. It's too much. It's too much fucking darkness.

42:44David Sims:I assume that was a Peter Weir judgment call.

42:46Griffin Newman:I don't know. But anyway, he's going crazy basically with his auteurdom, but then he drops out. And they go back to Robin Williams. Robin Williams has obviously made Good Morning Vietnam, which was a hit, but then since then he's had a couple flops. He hasn't really done anything. Well, so Good Morning Vietnam is 86? 87. Yeah, he hasn't really done anything. This is saying he has flops, but he has nothing. It's just... Maybe it's in his personal life. Is JJ Fyre? well it's a quote from somebody but anyway

43:19David Sims:I feel like he has a run of flops leading into Good Morning Vietnam

43:23Griffin Newman:yeah exactly like Moscow and the Hudson Best of Times Club Paradise Seize the Day all these kind of nothing movies never heard of any of this one it is crazy that he made a movie called Seize the Day yes based on the Saul Bellow book

43:34David Sims:right a pretty limp film and like his first attempt at doing this kind of drama

43:39Griffin Newman:Peter Weir has Green Card which is a movie he wrote yes he's been trying to make it it just got delayed for a year for whatever reason. Katzenberg calls him up and is like, hey, what are you doing? And he's like, I'm fucking waiting on this green card thing and I'm going to the supermarket. That's the quote Peter Weir gives.

43:55David Sims:And was green card Miramax?

43:57Griffin Newman:I don't know. Okay, I'm sorry. Does Miramax doesn't even exist then? What? It's 1989. Who releases green card? Green card was, of course, released by Disney. Touchstone. There we go. And so Katzenberg's like, well, you want to make a movie? Like, I got a movie. Yeah. and Katzenberg had worked with him on Witness and is like sends him the script Peter Weir's like oh it's about a school I don't care about that but then he reads the script and he's like school is for fools yeah right right then he says this cancer reveal sucks there we go get this out of the script

44:29David Sims:I mean emblematic of Peter Weir's value on this movie where you're like this is a film of tremendous judgment and good taste right right like his skill as a director in this film is largely invisible in terms of the craft It's very unshowy. But like, I think the things that like you're slightly allergic to in this movie, I watch and I'm like, I am so impressed he stays just on the right side of these things. Right. Because almost anyone else making this movie would probably make me vomit. And just knowing that it was supposed to have suicide and cancer is a perfect. Right. Yeah.

45:02Griffin Newman:Look, Tom Schulman is like, this is my script. This is the ending. You want me to take this out? Are you crazy? Peter Weir is just like, look, you don't have to, but I'm not going to make the movie. like in it. So it's like me or the, you know, this plot twist. And it was set up as a twist that you don't know he's been dying. I mean, I don't, it's the third act thing. And then Robin Williams comes aboard and Peter Weir says to him, like, by the way, we're losing the cancer thing. And Robin was like, oh, good. Like, I don't like that. And so Peter Weir went to private school as well. The Scots College in Sydney.

45:35Griffin Newman:He said it was an ironbound school. I was a terrible student. I, you know, so I did relate to that. And I did have a poetry lecture on William Blake where the teacher like, you know, woke me up and like, you know, excited me about that. And so I kind of tried to put that into the movie. So, you know, he relates to it, but it is a little bit of a higher job for Peter. Yeah. Right. Like he is coming aboard pretty late.

45:59David Sims:Ethan Hawke, who he obviously works with on this movie, gave his interview like a year or two ago where he basically announced Peter Weir's retirement and it got a lot of headlines. Is it? It's someone he was doing probably some film festival retrospective talk or whatever. And they asked him about working with different directors. Where's Peter Weir? Why has he made stuff? And he's like, he's basically retired. And then that headline carried over. Right. He's just like he just was kind of worn down by the industry. But he had this line I think about a lot and that I probably will bring up many, many times across the series where he's just like he was this really rare thing and that he was a popular artist.

46:34Yeah.

46:35David Sims:And just the succinctness of defining him that way where you're like this was a guy who mostly worked within the studio system with major A-list stars and made like intelligent mainstream movies. Yeah. He was like with actual art and craft making movies for grownups that were commercial plays. Yeah. Right. You know. Ryan Coogler. vibes like but you know yeah but like weirdly in a certain way he starts out making these personal films that are so much about like australia and its legacy whatever and then he becomes this like very emotionally invested director for hire in a bizarre way but i think i think you know we're so invested in like the auteur story but like directing like i don't know it's like it's a job you know and i think when people someone like him it's like he's just good at the job.

47:25That's the thing. And can be, like, there's just some, um, oh my God, my, I'm blanking. Help, send help, blank check. Um, Mad Max, George Miller. Yes. George Miller, he said, which I thought, hello. Um, he said, um, you have to, so much of directing is learning when to be passionate and dispassionate. Yeah. And I'm like, that's so true. And I think that's how you do that. Because if you're passionate all the time, you will just lose it.

47:49Griffin Newman:Burn yourself into. Yeah. And you'll be Dustin Hoffman.

47:52David Sims:and you're like, why am I losing all this weight to this movie? Kugler's magic to me is that he cannot make a film that isn't somehow him making the most personal statement he can at that time, and yet he is able to make it in a way that connects to everybody, which is kind of like a Spielberg magic. Exactly. He calls himself a populist filmmaker. Kugler's very clear about that. That's just the language he works in. Peter Weir has this sort of, not bifurcation in his career, but there's definitely this shift where so much of his value comes from A-list fucking leading men. Love him, respect him, trust him.

48:26Yeah.

48:26David Sims:And he becomes this director for hire in a certain way, but none of them feel like dispassionate jobs, you know? But it's like, this is an era where you still could have that level of clout because you're like, hey, Robin Williams wants to work with him. Harrison Ford wants to work with him. Mel Gibson wants to work with him. Russell Crowe wants to work with him. Jim Carrey wants to work with him. These guys are fucking turnkeys. And if this is the director they want, they get to make whatever fucking movie they want and this isn't treated as well this is Robin's little weird indie project no this is a

48:58Griffin Newman:this is a big studio movie yeah alright so when they're making it you guys might be shocked to learn Robin Williams kind of liked to sort of be a little goofy and funny when he was doing his teaching scene and stuff kind of like go into comedy mode you do one take

49:11David Sims:is written

49:12Griffin Newman:and then the second take well so Peter Weir had to put the brakes on that and said like look the guy's not an entertainer like that's not what this character is like he's not the funny teacher exactly like he's he makes jokes and he smiles you know and wanly and another example of good judgment i think peter weir used just enough of the robin stuff a thousand percent it's like these sorts of like watching the movie and watching robin like he has such deep like sadness in him he does which is the magic of robin exactly and for him to use and his deep empathy and it's just like for him to use that to not be able to go to

49:53David Sims:the comedy completely to to be the shield for all of that which he does it again with jim carrey and we'll talk about that a lot but there's so many interesting stories he tells about the process he's really good at and even witness is a version of this where like he's made such good movies it's a harrison ford movie star movie where he's playing a cop and where he's like really drilling down into like yeah there's like a sadness in you that other people kind of like haven't been

50:20Griffin Newman:well it's also because harrison ford's making that movie like after three you know star wars and two indiana jones and like it's like yeah play a guy right you're gonna play a guy now i

50:29David Sims:think he's john book but this is like why these guys wanted to work with him is he was really good at like taking someone with a movie star persona and all that eat and being like who's the real guy at the center of this yeah and you can trust me with that guy right i'm pulling something honest from deeper within you.

50:46Griffin Newman:So, Robin Williams, yes. Classically, yes. He would make you do one serious, then one silly, then one whatever. They did have a half day. They just let him go nuts. Unscheduled. Kind of didn't tell Disney about it. That's where the Brando and John Wayne stuff comes from. Didn't Ethan Hawke recently say how much he just hated him because he was so not serious? But Ethan Hawke is so overly serious, so I could see that. Ethan Hawke, I think also is very upfront about how fucking serious he was then. Like maybe he's a little more retrospective now, but like that he was so up his own ass as this young actor.

51:23Griffin Newman:That he didn't get it.

51:24David Sims:That it was like, why isn't this guy treating this like the most important thing that has ever happened?

51:28Griffin Newman:I think all these young actors like Josh Charles and him, and you know, he talks about it. Like they were in that pool of young actors in the early nineties, along with like Damon and Brendan Fraser and all those guys who were like coming up for all these roles at the same time. There was a really intense crop of young, white, brunette. White?

51:45David Sims:Wait, what? But all of these guests, the School Ties group and the Dead Poets group, all these people who were overlapping. It is funny, Hawke's casting here, and obviously he was kind of like the most experienced of all the actors because he had been a child star explorer. But the rest of them were pretty much the first big film. Yeah. He's like playing the least Hawkeye of the kids. Yeah, that's so true. Like Hawk is the ultimate like, man, you got to go out and learn and take your experience.

52:15Griffin Newman:He's not the later. You're right. He's not Richard Linklater as Ethan Hawke or Reality Bites Ethan Hawke or whatever.

52:21David Sims:I feel like Hawk's persona as a person now is like forever student. Right. That like every interview with him is just, man, I get so excited. You go to a museum and you see a painting and it makes you feel something. And to watch him in this being the young guy who you know was that serious and that artistically driven. then be like, I don't know if we should be doing this. Can you stop joking around, Mr. Williams, please?

52:43Griffin Newman:Plus improve. He wouldn't say action, Peter Weir. He would just throw a balled-up piece of paper at the head of the person who's supposed to speak first. I like that. Instead of yelling cut, he would wrap his coffee cup with a teaspoon. I assume you do the Clint Eastwood thing of, you say, go ahead, and that's enough of that, right? Yes, and then I don't realize it's a rehearsal, yes. I read the Clint biography that Sean Levy just wrote. Like, not director Sean Levy, critic Sean Levy. Which is so good. And it does talk about how he would just start filming rehearsals, like, as a matter of fact.

53:16Griffin Newman:And actors would be like, what the fuck are you doing? It's authentic. It's raw. I love shooting rehearsals. I mean, I always tell an actor when I'm rolling or if I'm like, they're doing it, do it. And then I'll go talk to them afterwards. But I remember, do you remember when it felt like, I feel like it was, again, when we were in our, like, early 20s. When the industry was acting as though women had just started directing films. and television. Yeah, it was a technological break. And they were, yeah, it was insane what we did. And then there were, there was such a story around like women not saying action because action was so male and not saying cut because it was so aggressive.

53:50It's violent, yeah. And I was just like, gee, can everyone fucking relax? So on my sets, my AD says action and my AD says cut.

53:58Griffin Newman:Okay. But to be fair, I am... You're in like an egg and no one is allowed to look at you. I don't go to set. We're in a parade. I direct from my helicopter. right exactly and we adr all the lines yeah exactly and your helicopter is 20 feet above 20 feet above exactly really it's very windy windy uh sound department hates hate me so much but they keep going back um no but i i do i do sometimes if it depending on the scene sometimes i'll say i'll call it yeah and then i'll just i'll give them whenever you're ready um because sometimes you you know you can just tell when they're like oh they need a little something or

54:33David Sims:whatever but there's also i mean it is a thing when clint doesn't like the take he says that's enough of that yeah is clint eastwood the only director to ever call print on auditions that's

54:44Griffin Newman:generally the book really lays out how philosophical throw it in the avid like the book is definitely not like he just wants to eat lunch because it's like he was been doing this since the 70s yeah yes yes he's a very good director and that he's just like the more we do it the more you're fucking it up like i like whatever you you know i see about david fincher well but that's the thing but then some actors would come i'm sorry to talk about clinty swood but i did just read this book would you know like meryl streep or whatever and be like what like you're not gonna let me like find it yeah and he'd be like no you're great standing right there you look great this is great like we're done you know and kevin costner famously fought with him on yes perfect world and he was like i'll shoot with a stand-in like costner had to back

55:27David Sims:To your point, he's been doing this for so long, Nia. It's like what you're saying of like, it's a job. He knows how to treat it like a job. And when he's working with fucking Costner and Meryl Streep, those are like two of the best performances those actors have given. Where he gets into trouble is when he hires people.

55:41Griffin Newman:I agree. That's the thing. Literal non-professional actors. Like, great.

55:45David Sims:And it's like, it's not going to get better than that. It's like, it probably would. Yeah. If you work with them a little bit. Yeah. also it's so funny because I always like like I had an actor who was like I'm not gonna be the first take girl like it's not gonna be me so I'm like okay then I'll cover you second like you know like so you start to learn on it so it's so interesting not to I mean that's like a lot of directing in my opinion is understanding the different flows of different actors yeah

56:11Griffin Newman:I guess she'd already done this show like but the Marvels is like her first movie who Iman Vellani oh my god I love her so much she's so good But she'd done the show, so she wasn't fine. She'd done the show, but no, it was actually quite great because I got her, it was similar to getting Alfie after he did 28 Years Later because that was his first movie. That kid rules. That kid's incredible. He was great, yeah. He's so funny. I think the first movie is she's just surrounded by adults, but in my movie he has like a bunch of teens. And so they all bullied me and he made fun of me because it took me too long to finish Untarted.

56:43I was like, okay. I'm directing a film, bro. Like, sorry.

56:48David Sims:Were you trying to 100 % it or just get to the end of the... I was, it's not like I was in story mode. I was in normal mode. Okay. But I think, I mean, to be fair, it's not a long game. And it's not Uncharted 4. It's the first Uncharted. I was just, I'm a completionist. I was like, I'll play it in order.

57:01Griffin Newman:No, but it's boring, the first Uncharted. I mean, there's stuff about it that's fun, but then it's like, okay, now I have to duck behind this fucking statue and shoot 18 people. Did you play that first before the other ones? Yeah. I played the first three Uncharted.

57:11David Sims:I mean, well, the story of Uncharted famously starts with Nathan Drake being a young boy, his uncle before he has a mustache.

57:18Griffin Newman:Right, right, right. He's talking about that. Okay, I was like, I don't remember that. Yeah, the movie, that was, you know, that was a time.

57:23David Sims:It's just one of the funniest things to me that's ever happened in Hollywood development. It's such a weird casting. All the casting is so strange. They took so long that they were like, 15 years of just like...

57:32Griffin Newman:Wahlberg's gotta be the fucking uncle now. We gotta beef that role up. But also it's like, they're just... And listen, I appreciate a Boogie Nights, Mark Wahlberg. I love Tom Holland. I think he's a such phenomenal actor. They're both miscast. It's just like, doesn't make any sense. It's just so funny to me.

57:45David Sims:They spent 15 years trying to do the version of that movie that everyone wanted to see. Yeah. And then they were like, but hear us out. We know we have failed to make the actual Nathan Drake adult movie that you all imagine. What if we did a prequel instead? And also the thing is, Tom Holland's never going to grow into being Nathan Drake.

58:02Griffin Newman:No. That's the thing with casting him. It's like, what do you think is coming? It's like Timothee Swiss Chalet is never going to grow into being the Messiah of Dune. Well, I disagree with you on that. Ooh, fun. But didn't you find it strange? No, I love those movies. But didn't you find it strange how in the first movie, he's like he has this flash forward right and he's in a stuntman's body with his his VFX eyes you're right he's never gonna that's not that person his body is not gonna change it will never change

58:30David Sims:but you are also right that like it is the exact thing that makes Tom Holland the most incredible Spider-Man casting of all time of like they finally got a guy who you can have play 24 ever yeah and he's also so good at Spider-Man he's really good at Spider-Man

58:44Griffin Newman:yes he is let me give you some takes from you know Ethan Hawke has talked about this about how Peter Weir likes to quote cast for the final color and you know what does that mean because he was basically like Robert Sean Leonard is very shy and introverted so he didn't make sense to me as this role and I am the opposite so I didn't make sense in this role either but Robert Sean Leonard said that Weir said to him, like, don't think about the suicide at all. Like, you are not playing this as a boy who's doomed. You're playing this as a kid who's going on to stuff. And Hawk calls the yawp scene, your favorite scene, the most significant professional day of his life.

59:24Griffin Newman:It was the first time I really felt the experience of being an actor where I could lose myself in a story and lose myself inside a collective imagination. They're doing Steadicam, so it's like this, you know, cool, long thing that, I don't know, yeah, he liked it. this is a boring quote I love Ethan Hawke but that's kind of his vibe he'll monologue and you're like yeah he liked it thank you Ethan and then they had fun making the movie they truly did I think it was freezing but apart from that everyone was into it Delaware I guess the budget was 16 million dollars and the schedule was pretty tight 16 sweet 16 and like so they had to do it really fast and Peter Weir apparently selects music for each scene and plays the music while everyone's lighting and rehearsing and stuff and then it will fade out right as he is starting shooting so he's trying to sort of like set a tone I want to know the guy who has to like determine when it's time to I know right

1:00:29David Sims:and I was gonna say harder to fucking do in like a pre iPod era Yeah, yeah. Now directors do that. I'm like, yeah, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fucking found a Bluetooth speaker. We all read the Quentin Tarantino interview. Right, you're just hitting the volume slider down. That must have been like actually a somewhat complicated maneuver. Anyway. I don't do music on set like that at all. No? No, I mean, occasionally if we're doing a night shoot, I'll have a dance party. That's fine. Yeah, and then there's a party scene in Hedda. The whole movie's a party scene. Yeah, that's right. Or like the scene where everyone's just like, we genuinely had like the best like club music playing and everyone was like fuck yeah that's really yeah it was great it was great i'm sure some of my extras are drunk but i i've had i've had directors do that and i do find that it helps sometimes cameron crowe is famous for that i'm sure there's a version of it that is annoying but like if it's really ad's usually hit it yeah yeah i'm sure if it's really being used as like a um a mood setting thing exactly that's that's what it can help with i feel like sometimes if it's well curated yeah one thing i love about dead poet

1:01:33Griffin Newman:society i do want to give this movie its flowers where i you know sometimes is that the opening just to start talking about the movie sure um because it feels like a funeral yes and you are watching it not knowing what this movie is about being like oh did somebody die and then it's like no school is beginning their spirits are dying yes like because they're all like filing into this church yes and it's so somber and it's so like funereal the great normal lloyd you know we'd love to welcome fucking hagrid will be teaching creature you know department yeah it just feels

1:02:06David Sims:like hogwarts like suddenly it is like it's like a wake for their fucking happiness exactly yeah

1:02:12Griffin Newman:all these boys these you know preppy protestant boys who are gonna i mean become the leaders of america i guess right did you have to pray no you wouldn't have prayed at your school no so i had to pray at my school you had to pray to who we had to to god god to the christian to christian god to white jesus specifically right christian protestant you know waspy god um we we had to um it was at rumsey hall so they we did uh the lord's prayer right and then we had this the pledge of allegiance which it's so weird doing the pledge of allegiance uh yeah it's it's crazy when you look back on it and i remember the first time i realized i didn't have to say it was i saw this green student also a boarding student was like not saying it i was like oh because she doesn't pledge allegiance to our flag yeah i'm like that person is not from this country and i was like i'm from here but i also could just not no one's gonna know yeah there was no prayer in my new york city public schools obviously because that is against the law at least for the next six months.

1:03:15Griffin Newman:Yeah, but we'll see how long it lasts. But then I moved to England and there was praying because it is a religious country nominally. All the Anglicans, yeah. And, but I remember I was told as a nine-year-old, I was like, you don't have to if you don't want to. I didn't get that. Because I, one, didn't know what to say. But they would say the Lord's Prayer.

1:03:34David Sims:St. Anne's was originally run out of the basement of a church a block away.

1:03:39Griffin Newman:Yeah, right, of course. That is the St.

1:03:40David Sims:Anne's Church. So it took that name. And then once they had their own building, they kept the name. And they killed God. They killed God. But it's the most heathenest place on earth quite possibly. But people would always be like, oh shit, you went to Catholic school? Yeah. It sounds like... Could they hit the kids? No, no. I went to a Catholic school where they could hit the kids. No, there was the wrong kind of touching. We'll see. This is well documented. Honestly, Google it. I'll say in this,

1:04:05Griffin Newman:as someone, there's moments where Robin Williams... David's wife also went to my high school, by the way. She did, yeah. And she is a public school teacher now, I want to clarify. She's not a private school teacher. She made it out. Yeah. But there's moments in this where Robin Williams is really grabbing the students by the shoulders and stuff. And he's being very physical with them. And I was like, it doesn't seem unrealistic to me, but I was shocked by it. He's like, you cannot touch students. Well, sure.

1:04:29David Sims:But I also think that's a good fucking...

1:04:31Griffin Newman:Now, I mean.

1:04:32David Sims:But I think that's good judgment from Weir where you're like, yeah, like fireable offense. You know? Like this movie has to end with the guy being fired. Is he a good teacher? I... Okay. I...

1:04:44Griffin Newman:This is the central question of Dead Poets Society. They mostly seem to just hang out.

1:04:49David Sims:I also think... It's a poetry class though.

1:04:51Griffin Newman:It is cool though. Yes. I think a lot of these movies... Because he's getting them excited by art.

1:04:55David Sims:Cultural legacy, right? Mm-hmm. Our age, growing up, watching this movie for the first time in a world where we've already heard the things repeated. All of us knew the fucking beats and the parodies and whatever. I feel like the last 20 years of Dead Poets Society has been mostly a lot of things making fun of this type of teacher. Yeah.

1:05:13Griffin Newman:Right? Like that's the community episode. The community episode's a great one. But the idea of just Colin Joe sketch on SNL where they all stand up and then like one of them, their heads get cut off. Yes. Right.

1:05:23David Sims:But just this idea of like, we all find this fun and inspiring, but actually. I don't know, guys. I disagree. I had a couple of teachers like him and like I had Mr. Rothwell when I was in public school for two years. He and I came from a Catholic school where they get hit the kids. And it was so I was like, I didn't know what was going on. Sure. I was like, I saw a nun hit a kid and she was too angry, you know? I was like, that's not God. It was the nun. And so I know all about her. So if you want to know more about her past before she was killing people. But no, I had this teacher, Mr. Rothwell, and like he was very similar in the sense that, and he was absolutely ridiculous.

1:06:00He was an actor, of course. And when we were, he was white. And when we were doing Raisin in the Sun, he was like, I'll be the part of this person. And I was like, oh, like, that's great. Cool, cool. But he really wanted us to like learn how to think. and it was so clear, even though he was ridiculous, we all were like, oh, like, right. That's what he's doing. Yeah. But we also were like, but I mean, I got myself in trouble. He was like, challenge, where are your sources in history class? And so in history class, I was like, what are your sources? And my teacher was like, the textbook.

1:06:29David Sims:Don't flip it back on me. Yeah. She was like, shut up. This has been vetted. Exactly. I had a couple teachers that meant a tremendous amount to me that changed my life that all did that. Like all the people who meant something to me were the. They made you rip out pages? No, but I'm teaching you how to think, not what to think. Absolutely. And like felt empowering in that way and had that kind of like, I'm putting this out there waiting to see the kids who need to hear this. Yeah. And who will respond. And then I'm really going to lock in with them.

1:07:02Griffin Newman:You know? It's a very interesting. So the movie is about his year as a teacher with these boys. You don't see him teaching any other classes. I assume he does teach other classes. Yeah. Like he's not just teaching, you know, juniors or whatever they are.

1:07:16David Sims:He's not the POV character. We start the movie with the boys. I mean, even to your point, the opening of this film, it's like you start with a shot of a mural of a painting of these well-behaved boys. Right. Like literally like this is the model of how we want you to look. And then the camera pans down to a small child being dressed up in his uniform. the sort of feeling of the factory line of like, this is, we're molding you to just be this. Right. And then going into this funereal procession, as you said. And then he's introduced as like, oh, he's an alumnus and we're all welcoming Mr. Keating.

1:07:49David Sims:But we're seeing him basically from the POV of these boys in the pew as they're seeing just this guy sitting at the end of the line on the stage.

1:07:56Griffin Newman:And it's an interesting high school movie in that there's no bully, really. there are meaner kids and like less kids who are less into it. God, one kid who's a fucking fink. Yeah. There's one kid who is a fink. But he's more of like a little coward. Fucking fink. Right? He just, he caves. Yeah. But it's like, I watched this movie and I hadn't seen that and I was like, oh yeah, does Josh Charles play the bully? Because like, that's what he usually would play in every other. Just plays a normal

1:08:23David Sims:forehead kisser. He plays a prince charming. All he's trying to do is rescue princesses by kissing them allursly.

1:08:30Griffin Newman:But like, right, it's about this like, largely very sincere group of boys. Yeah. Who seem, sort of, I guess the movie's, you know, arguing like, oh, Mr. Keating helped them, you know, learn to think and love poetry and all that. But I'm like, taught them how to be in touch with their emotions. Yeah, exactly. They're very like feely boys. And it feels like they're pretty on board

1:08:51David Sims:with him pretty much right away. I do find this movie interesting to watch now in a kind of peak are young men okay era. Where this is a movie that, as you said, is kind of about him teaching them to not be afraid of their own emotions. Yes, because they're basically like,

1:09:07Griffin Newman:should we have a secret poetry society? Where we get so working up about Shakespeare and shit. Is this the healthiest version of a man cave ever? But I mean, I went to a school where I loved English, I love poetry, I love Shakespeare and all that. It's like, I wasn't finding tons of other kids who were like, let's do some late night Shakespeare shit together.

1:09:29David Sims:Bring fucking cool lamps into the cave. And then girls, and that's when things went off.

1:09:34Griffin Newman:Well, the thing about theater, which I did in high school, was that was how you got to meet girls. Yes, yes, yes. So that was crucial.

1:09:41David Sims:What does he say? This is no Greek society? Does he say that? To no pederast? There's the point where they're like, what, you just hang out in a cave reading poems with other boys? Uh-huh, right. And Williams, like, kind of does the eyebrow wiggle of, like— Not just boys. Right. He says, I'll find the fucking line. But yes, it does feel like he knows wisely, much like theater teachers often weaponize this, as you said, to be like, hey, guys, don't you want to know how to talk to women? Yeah, yeah.

1:10:10Griffin Newman:You have to trap them. There's no homosexual overtones in this movie, despite it being a movie about a bunch of boys at school. Another thing that's surprising. Well, it's not surprising because of the year. Wait, did you go to All Boys in England? Yes, I did. Okay. Have you heard of Meat Lips? Oh, boy. Don't Google that. Don't Google that. I like her. This is going. Did you go to All Boys, Griffin? No. Okay. Did you go to All Boys? No. Okay. So I go to England. He's like, Ben sucks. I go to England. I go to public school, my local school when I'm nine years old. And then I, to everyone's surprise, I tested into this, like, good school.

1:10:45Griffin Newman:But that was a boys school. My mom was like, I must have been so hard for my mom, like, in retrospect, was like, I'm going to send him to, like, an all boys school where he wears a fucking tie. Like, I was living in New York two years ago. Like, what is going on? I was very adorable. Of course. I have to see a picture when we're done. Sure, I'll find a picture. But no, I don't know what meat lips is. Is that what you just said? So, so, so from at my boarding school, some boys came from an all boys school and meat lips is basically where a boy would go into his pants, rub his balls with his hands and then smack a boy on the, on the mouth and go meat lips.

1:11:20Is this a British thing or you're saying it's just a boy in New England? But I would say that sort of stuff was happening plenty. I was always so worried about, once I heard that, I was like, are men okay? They would never go to a girl. No, no, no. Men are okay. Yeah, it was really crazy how focal your penises were in your daily lives.

1:11:36Griffin Newman:Getting pantsed was a big thing in my life. The thing about a boys' school is, yes, like, there's maybe too much familiarity and discussion of everyone's penises. Yeah, yeah. Where it's like, you know, if there are girls around or maybe everyone kind of, like, knows to just sort of chill out a little bit. That's the problem with a boys' school. The advantage of boys' schools is that everyone's just lazy and stinky. Like, because there's no... I'm sorry, that's the advantage? Well, I'm just like... It smells bad? Like, to me, what was crazy about going to a boys' school was girls' schools. Because all the girls I knew who went to girls' schools, those places were crazy.

1:12:12Griffin Newman:Like, it was so much psychological torment and awful shit. Girls were seeing so mean to each other. Whereas if you put boys together, yeah, there's a little bullying and stuff. Like, there's some jocks and dorks. But like mostly it's just like 14 year old boys are just like, we're just disgusting. Yeah. We're just all disgusting together. So it's sort of like a quote unquote chill atmosphere, I guess. Yes. Interesting. I don't know. Meatlip seems really unchilled to me. That sounds quite unchilled. Yeah. Maybe it's England's different. I don't know. No, England's gross too. Actually, no, it's not.

1:12:43No, it's actually terrible. I have a couple of guy friends who went in England who went to boarding school from the age of like eight and they're all very sad about it.

1:12:50Griffin Newman:Well, and especially boarding school in England. And I would meet people, you know, and their parents would have gone to boarding school and they had never gotten over it. Yeah. Because I feel like it's, you know, the Roald Dahl books and all that about his experience in boarding school of like just institutional bullying. Like where it's like that sort of the older boys, like the structure of like, well, I was bullied. So now I'm going to bully you. Yeah, the hierarchy. Right. Yeah, exactly. Like it just seems awful. And you're like, obviously. Yeah, obviously. And then like teaching would be, I mean, the guy he's telling them to rip the book out, right?

1:13:22Griffin Newman:That's a real thing. That's some fucking famous academic from the early 20th century. It's like, yeah, poetry should be like put on a graph of like how good it is. That's, that is actually the most insane. It's so crazy. Yeah. And like, I mean, good for him being like, that's silly, like, or whatever. But like, yeah, it's like, that was, I guess how frigid their education was supposed to be. Did you guys have this game? Oh, oh boy. Of course, Ben. Yes. I'm not looking. All right. Did you like... Go ahead. I was going to say... Punching boys. It's crazy.

1:13:54David Sims:Doorknob and safety really were... cast a big shadow over my adolescence. What does that mean? Doorknob safety? That if you fart... You have to call safety before anyone else calls it... calls you out on it. And if they say doorknob and correctly accuse you of farting before you've said safety... Yeah. Then they get to keep punching you until you touch a doorknob. Oh, my gosh. That one I don't know. That's crazy. I don't know if that's something vaguely familiar.

1:14:24Griffin Newman:It's so the mind of a teenager, like this sort of like inventiveness of punishment. This is the other thing.

1:14:31David Sims:Look, the Internet existed when we were teenagers, but like social media didn't exist in the same kind of way. These things weren't open source. Yeah. The most we had was like some instant messaging.

1:14:41Griffin Newman:Right.

1:14:41David Sims:But like whatever you experience at your school, you're like, this must be the most universal thing in the world. I just assumed all three of you were going to laugh uproariously when I said doorknob and safety. For all I know, maybe no one else has ever done this.

1:14:54Griffin Newman:Reddit R nostalgia. Anyone else plays safety doorknob when farting as a kid?

1:14:59David Sims:We couldn't go to Reddit to find out if this was a game. Do you want to Reddit meatlips? Yeah, Reddit meatlips. R slash meatlips.

1:15:16David.

1:15:17David Sims:Yep. I love wearing hats. I'm a hatsman. You are. If I said I was a hatsman, I would agree. Certainly. And much like Daniel Plainview, I love starting businesses. Yeah. But I'll tell you the one part of starting a business I don't like. Having to wear so many hats all at once. I'm a one hat at a time guy.

1:15:38Griffin Newman:Okay. Well, I guess you can only have one hat at a time. And, you know, you're just going to be intimidated and lonely. That's the concern.

1:15:45David Sims:But here's an option. Uh-huh. What if Shopify could metaphorically take some of those hats off your head and start wearing them themselves?

1:15:55Griffin Newman:Look, Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world. 10 % of all e-commerce in the U.S. That's a pretty crazy stat. You know, we're working on getting our own Shopify page up.

1:16:08David Sims:We're relaunching our merch with our own Shopify page. And they're the dream business part. But like, you know, Mamafuku, Heinz, Mattel. Oh, yeah. Heard of them? I just bought a lot of He-Man toys and got tracking updates from Shopify.

1:16:23Griffin Newman:So Shopify obviously, you know, gets you started with your own design studio. They've got hundreds of ready-to-use templates. Yeah. You can build a big, beautiful online store matching your brand's style. Mm-hmm. You know, you can get the word out like you have a marketing team behind you. You easily create email and social media campaigns wherever your customers are scrolling and strolling. I like that. I love to scroll and scroll. That's really good language.

1:16:47David Sims:And David. Yes. I enjoy as a consumer on the other side of the transaction. Sure. That I can open my Shopify app and I see all my orders there. I see the tracking updates. I can keep track of what I've ordered. Can I tell you some things I ordered recently? Vinegar Syndrome. The fine folks of Vinegar Syndrome. Love them. I ordered Rade Jude's Dracula, which is not part of our upcoming Patreon series, but I thought it was good. Supplemental Watching. Yeah. And Young Sphankmeyer's Faust.

1:17:14Griffin Newman:Very good.

1:17:15David Sims:Lovely diss from those fine folks. Thank you. I bought an action figure of Andor and his droid friend. What's his droid? E2 Emo. Yeah. From the fine folks at Twink. The store is called Twink. But now that I finally watched Andor and I'm Andor-pilled, I had to ask Twink. We support you. To give me an Andor figure in exchange for money. Right. I also bought replicas of the sunglasses from They Live, from the fine folks at Fright Rags. These are things I'm keeping track of that are very important and mature.

1:17:45Griffin Newman:Yeah. Look, you could be like some of the brands that are selling Griffin beautiful things.

1:17:50David Sims:You can either start a business and look for Griffins to sell things to, or you can be a Griffin and buy too many things.

1:17:57Griffin Newman:So, start your business today with the industry's best business partner, Shopify, and start hearing cha-ching! Cha-ching. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com slash check. Go to shopify.com slash check. That's shopify.com slash check. Chaching.

1:18:15David Sims:Chaching.

1:18:19David Sims:David! Yes? They say that the eyes are the window to the soul. They do say that. What does that make our glasses? Uh, the windows? The window frames? I don't know. The curtains? Uh, yeah. The curtains. The point is, if you are a glasses wearer like I am or like our own producer Ben is. True. It's a big decision. Sure. Because this is how you introduce yourself to the world. This is how you engage with other people. You make eye contact through the frames. Sometimes it's just time for a refresh.

1:18:47Griffin Newman:Totally agree. All right. Well, so what about Zenni Optical?

1:18:51David Sims:Oh, the fine folks' Zenni glasses. The eyewear. They got fun shapes, sizes, and colors. They got a lot of colors. Right. Statement pieces. Bold statement pieces, they call them. and they're inexpensive, I would say. They're an online eyewear shop with prescription glasses, sunglasses, blue light lenses, all starting at under$30. That's crazy.

1:19:17Griffin Newman:That is very low. I feel like glasses often cost more than$30. Way more. But you go to Zenni.com, you pick a frame, you upload your prescription, they ship it to your door, no appointment, no store, no upsell at the counter. Easy. At that price, something kind of shifts. You're not like, do I need new glasses? You're like, why don't I try something fun, right?

1:19:36David Sims:Sometimes you got an old pair, they got a scratch on them. It's annoying, but you're like, am I going to go through the hassle? Or the screws start to get loose and you find yourself taking out that microscopic little screwdriver over and over again to tighten them up. At this price, why not just get another pair? Ben, I ordered a pair of the Magoo. I think this is funny. Okay. We all know from Mr. Magoo, the cartoon character who can't see. And Zenny is saying, let's solve that problem. and let's give you glasses called Magoo. They're blue and green, two of my favorite colors. A nice boxy frame.

1:20:11Griffin Newman:I also ordered a pair. I got crystal sand oval sunglasses, very reminiscent of a Kurt Cobain-esque looking pair. Sure, sure. That I feel like you also wore in the film Pavements. Very similar, yes.

1:20:26David Sims:Yes, when I played Steve West. I was somewhat inspired by you.

1:20:29Griffin Newman:Yeah. And I got these great sunglasses. They're sort of clear frames. Yeah. With a greenish tinted lens.

1:20:37David Sims:I'm wearing the Magoo as just everyday optical prescription glasses. And let me say, I'm having the opposite of Mr. Magoo experiences. I'm seeing everything clearly. I'm walking the right direction. You don't see me accidentally up on some steel beams. Exactly.

1:20:51Griffin Newman:They've got 150 ,000 five-star reviews. Yeah. And if you've never run glasses online before, they have a virtual try-on so you can see how it's going to look on your face before you commit. If your glasses are overdue for a refresh, now's the time. Go to zenni.com slash podcast and use code podcast15 for 15 % off your first order. The styles sell out, so don't sit on it. That's Z-E-N-N-I dot com slash podcast promo code podcast15.

1:21:23David Sims:The line, William says, is we weren't a Greek organization. We were romantics.

1:21:29Griffin Newman:Oh, sure, sure. Yes.

1:21:31David Sims:Which I guess is more of a fraternity.

1:21:33Griffin Newman:Right. I mean, the, you know, the, the, what Keating is doing is just being like, hey, this textbook is silly. We're going to like think about art in a more meaningful way. Right. But then the kids are so into him that they are like, what was your, they find the old yearbook and they're like, oh, you had the dead poet society. What was that?

1:21:52David Sims:And he's like, almost half mocking, even though they like him, they're like, what is this dorky thing? And the way that he, with such inner confidence, like, says the thing about, like, we sucked the marrow out of life. Like, we, like, fucking lived it up. This shit was rad. You see them all get sparked of, like, oh, fuck, is it cool to care about shit? But that's the age when you're so receptive to that, actually. Absolutely. You need someone to tell you, like, it's okay to feel things. Yeah, a thousand percent. It's okay to be, like, genuine. Yeah. And that scene is so intoxicating. Yeah. We're jumping ahead now.

1:22:24David Sims:But yes, it is crazy to me rewatching this, how like the first 15 minutes of the movie, you're like, oh, shit. Almost all of the iconic stuff happens in the first 15 minutes. It's true. A lot of the big, the carpe diem, the ripping out the, yeah. Oh, Captain, my Captain. Like all that stuff is set up basically in the first class alone. You're like, most of the cultural reputation of this movie is basically the first 15 minutes in the last five. Yeah. You know, with like the stuff in the middle is the stuff that I think, not that's forgotten, but is less discussed. Also, it's less exciting. Like, yeah.

1:23:00Josh Charles kissing a girl and like, you know, her boyfriend and blah, blah, blah. It's like, no, who cares?

1:23:05Griffin Newman:I think the middle act of this movie is pretty dull. Yeah.

1:23:08David Sims:It's the duller part. Yeah. But yes, he hits the ground running. This guy fucking first class. It's just like, here's my. Another question about this guy.

1:23:17Griffin Newman:I hate to nitpick this guy. But it's like, right. He had such an exciting high school life, I guess. Okay. Went to Cambridge. Yeah. We learned and studied English. Now he's fucking back at his private school that he went to. He says it. He says, I love teaching. Just go teach somewhere else, asshole. Where's his partner? Yeah. Who's he married to? She's in England. Yeah. It's a girlfriend. Get back to England then. Fucking, what's he doing here in snowtown Massachusetts or whatever? Doesn't the autumn and the winter, doesn't it look so nice? it's so romantic you guys have a few teachers I had a few teachers in my school who had gone to the school like in my high school like two or three and I remember being just like I like the school fine but I was like you wanted to come back here?

1:24:06but do you find now that you have people you went to school with who are now doing that? because there are a couple people I went to high school with

1:24:12David Sims:and I'm like just go somewhere else it's fine go carpe diem in like Baltimore or something Yeah, actually Carpe Diem here. I will say those also weren't the teachers that like changed my life. I definitely had a couple who had gone to the school. Yeah. They were not the ones who really stuck with me, whatever that says. No, there's the scene, the Robert Sean Leonard scene. It does feel like he says that where he's just like, if you're so great, why the fuck are you teaching here? And his answer is, it's what I love doing. Right. And I think the subtext of that also is that like because when he shows up on the class the first day, he's like, what's the name of the fucking school?

1:24:52David Sims:The school that they're at? Yeah. Wilton Academy. Right. He says, right. I'm also a Wilton graduate. Wait a second. Like he's leading with this sort of sense of I know how much this place sucks. Yeah. I'm someone who made it out the other side. I think the reason he goes back there is because he wants to like repay the loop. of like, these are boys who are going to get fucking crushed.

1:25:14Griffin Newman:Like, save them. Which, that makes sense to me, is sort of like, that's his noble mission. Although, it's interesting. Again, it's like, there's a lot of movies in this movie that I am maybe more interested by, because like, there's this scene early, Ishan, where the other teacher, not an administrator, kind of calls him out being like, you're doing what? Like, you're working on pages and shit? Your kids are running around? They're friends though, right? And they're friends. And he's kind of saying, and he's sort of like,

1:25:39David Sims:oh, you're a cynic. and he goes, no, I'm a realist.

1:25:41Griffin Newman:Yeah, exactly. And the guy's basically saying like, look, I'm not mad about you doing it, but right, but like, I don't think this is going to work out for you.

1:25:47David Sims:Why are you telling them all that they can be artists? You're going to turn them all into frustrated failed artists, right? Like he's basically saying, don't empower all of them.

1:25:57Griffin Newman:Yeah, like just keep it cute, you know? Right. I don't want to, yeah. He's giving the advice essentially of like also like, don't like make a false promise of they're going to be able to do whatever they want. And I guess that's pointing to the end of the movie, but I find the end of the movie a little dishonest. Well, at the end of the movie, that friend of his, he's walking with his class outside. And he gives him a nod. Yeah, yeah. He's like, heating's up in the tower. That's the other thing.

1:26:23David Sims:I don't think this guy's ever longed for the school. He doesn't fight the firing. It feels like even if they hadn't fired him, I wouldn't be surprised if this guy left after a year. It feels like he wants to go back there.

1:26:34Griffin Newman:Right. He wants it to be something and he wants to be able to do this, but it's like the principal of the school is like, well, I think, I think children are awful and books should be shouted at them. And I will paddle anyone who disagrees with me. He's like, Oh, the paddling scene is so icky. The paddling scene kind of rocks. We kind of knocks that out of the park.

1:26:53David Sims:Yeah.

1:26:53Griffin Newman:Yeah. I know he does. He does. It's really, really bad.

1:26:55David Sims:But I think they don't expand on it that much. It's a throwaway moment, but the, uh, the very attractive blonde woman, and he has a framed photo on his desk who's in England. I just have to imagine that this is sort of like, you know what, I'll go back there and teach for a year while she's doing a graduate program abroad or something. It feels like there's some reason why he has to be long distance with his girlfriend for a year. It doesn't come up,

1:27:20Griffin Newman:but yeah.

1:27:20David Sims:And so he's, why not do this rather than I want to be a fucking part of the firmament of this place for decades. Yeah, even when he shows up, like, his energy is just so, I mean, it's very Robin Williams-y, but it's so like, I don't know, ephemeral. It is a perfect use of him. You were saying how important Robin Williams was to you. He was just like, for our generation. Yeah. In the 90s, he was the biggest. He's the guy. He was the guy. Yeah. And to be a child and be like, this guy makes the best family movies. He also feels like the ultimate celebrity. Anytime he shows up on TV, he's going to be funny.

1:27:57David Sims:And yet you're aware he is taken seriously by grownups. Yeah. It's true. of him that I'm not getting yet. Yeah.

1:28:06Griffin Newman:That he's not just inventing Flubber out here. Yo, Flubber was my shit, bro. Flubber rules. I haven't seen it in 30 years, maybe. I remember having a couple notes on that one as well. When you were eight with your pen. I think I was 11 when I saw Flubber and I was too old for Flubber, possibly. When did Flubber come out?

1:28:22David Sims:Flubber's 97? Yeah, that was 11. 97, 98, yeah.

1:28:26Griffin Newman:Remember Jack? Jack's kind of fun.

1:28:28David Sims:Jack I've often referred to as my least favorite movie ever made. Jack is tough. Yeah.

1:28:34Griffin Newman:That's a tough movie. It's sad at the end. Yeah, sure. It's also sad at the beginning. That's how he ages a lot. Yeah. That was upsetting. Directed by? Oh, yeah. Francis Ford Coppola.

1:28:46David Sims:His low point. But, Francis, okay. We can't talk about Frank. Okay. We can't. No, it's too much. You haven't lopped it off yet. You gotta lop it off before we talk about Frank. Wait, lop what off? Megalopolis. Oh, I haven't seen it yet. Yeah, exactly. You gotta lop it off. Oh, yes, yeah. I um listen I bought it I was so excited I went to see it in theaters or I wanted to and then I just never got around to it and then I just yeah do I have time of the day look he's starting to recut it it's not finished there'll probably seven more versions of Michaelopoulos yeah but he's from an era where it was like here's the director's cut and the extended cut and the this cut and the that cut and it's like but you you made the movie with your own money so it should just be your cut right it's true

1:29:27Griffin Newman:who's who's getting your notes

1:29:29David Sims:Franny yeah he did an interview and maybe it's already come out by this point I bet it was normal but he did an interview recently very normal where he was like I might try doing a weirder cut and I'm like a weirder cut my guy oh my god you had no notes on this fucking self-funded fever dream by all means go off show me your weirder cut but why wasn't that the first cut

1:29:51Griffin Newman:I'm gonna do an impression it's long as well it's pretty long it's pretty long movie yeah it's not like the longest movie but like it's up there for length it's not the shortest either um dev ho society so yeah you know he wrote they wrote about the book and he says carpe diem i like that they don't pathologize this character too much that they don't over explain him

1:30:11David Sims:okay that he does feel a little magical well because now if the movie came out now there'd be a scene uh where you'd see they'd realize he's an alcoholic and there would be 20 scenes right

1:30:22Griffin Newman:there's there's this sort of uh a purity to just like yeah we don't really know he's we know he's

1:30:28David Sims:an alum it would absolutely open with this guy like walking into the building with his briefcase

1:30:34Griffin Newman:on the first day i mean like i love the holdovers a movie i think you only like i like um that to me is a better sort of version of the because the same vibe obviously it's actually uh you know period boarding school in massachusetts where it's just like the teachers are like i'm a crusty piece of shit like i shouldn't be here if i wanted to you know if i'd achieved my goals like i wouldn't be here but i can still help you like hurt people can still help yeah that movie is

1:31:05David Sims:almost the exact shadow self of this movie right that's a guy who's stuck here forever and you're like why you seem tortured and you're torturing others yeah right and also it is from his perspective more than the kid yeah um yeah but it's a similar feeling i had a similar feeling of like, oh, I'm just, we're just vibing out. We're just, look at the dorm. Look at the school. Look at the architecture. New England.

1:31:26Griffin Newman:Dead Poets Society is a beautiful movie. And it really, anytime I'm sort of just, when I was watching it, I'm like, I was just like, this looks so fucking, of course I do, autumn.

1:31:38David Sims:But I'm like, the autumn. New Hollywood, right, brings about a kind of shift in the visuals of American film, I would argue, where people were trying to avoid a feeling of like overly manicured sumptuousness, right? Yeah, which then you're like, why is it so ugly? Even a lot of the big epics of the 70s and 80s were like lit. Hey, Pacino, why so ugly? Why so ugly, baby? Were lit a lot more flatly than the like equivalent movies of the 60s and before that, right? Because there was this feeling of like we're going for a naturalism, a roughness. this movie still has like the grain structure of like the 80s before the 90s really like improve film speeds and then you get these films that just look like immaculately shiny and glossy and it feels like that style comes back into fashion but it does feel like this movie establishes like a color palette and a lighting scheme that then kind of becomes the default for like sensitive serious studio dramedy yeah uh john seal it's a dramedy I would call it a dramedy.

1:32:43Griffin Newman:A light drama. It was nominated as a drama in the Golden Globes. I would call this a drama. I would call this a straight up drama. It has suicide and stuff in it. I guess it's light-ish in that the first chunk of it is like, oh, he's a nice teacher. But it's kind of a sad movie. Because even when he's being, it's just like, this sucks. Yeah. This fucking sucks. These boys got to go to this fucking place. Norman Lloyd not yeah Norman Lloyd right is the principal you know he's great he is great so good you know it's just like this sucks John Seal who shot it just to reference that you know Weir picks him up from out of Australian obscurity for witness and he had done you know Mosquito Coast like he'd been working with Weir for a second but he'd also done right before this Gorillas in the Mist and Rain Man which are similar vibe yeah where it's like we're going back like you're saying to this kind of like burnished more lush kind of prestigy look for these kinds of movies and then right after this he does Lorenzo's Oil which is a gorgeous movie right but that feels like the fully burnished version of it as you're saying and then of course he wins the Oscar for English Patient a few years from now

1:33:54David Sims:which is like the ultimate which for me is the apex of it exactly right I'm like that's we finally perfected the 90s Oscar movie look right and then people are like enough already you know like yeah because now people are like is that movie even good right

1:34:05Griffin Newman:and then he shot Fury Road right yeah I I saw it in high school he sure did Sorry, I'm saying it. He shot Fury Road. And 3 ,000 years long. He's only worked, he's basically retired. Isn't he 100? John Steele is 82. He's so old. Honestly, George Miller and him shooting Fury Road, I'm just like, baby, are you okay?

1:34:24David Sims:It is the ultimate. I feel like with each passing year, it just becomes harder to understand how that movie was made. And the more information that comes out, and especially just here.

1:34:34Griffin Newman:Well, they took all these vehicles onto the Fury Road.

1:34:36David Sims:Oh, of course. And the Dew Warrior was there, and so on and so forth. But I do feel like it is the ultimate movie that filmmakers cite where they're just like, I can't get my head around this. It's like, I cannot, it's Soderbergh's famous quote where he's like, my three questions are, how did they ever finish making this movie? How did no one die? And I forget what the third one is. Yeah. The fact that it's like a masterpiece, let alone a movie that cuts together is insane. Yeah. No, it's, I find it especially like, because like i read kyle's book about it and and um yes who i think is such a great writer and um uh you know you're just like i could have never done that because i the amount of fighting he had to do obfuscating ignoring yeah i don't know running off into the wilderness to avoid you know like it's crazy and also like 15 years of not making it being like no not right yeah you know like I got to stay on my ground I know exactly what this fucking thing is and then it's just like everyone hated him while he was making it and then saw the screening and was like oh you were right yeah like how the fuck do you like have that clear sense of it in your head yeah and somehow get exactly what you want out of everybody even in a way at a time where you can't communicate it to them yeah yeah it's madness fascinating madness okay so what else happens they wrote the book scene one of the film he sparks them pretty quickly they're on board as you said he has the conversation with the other teacher what were you gonna say Nia?

1:36:09well I mean the boys Noanda my favorite he's my favorite and he doesn't really act after it I know he's good he's a high level

1:36:17Griffin Newman:studio exec he did Gail Hanson I believe is his name yes he was so cute he sort of flipped over

1:36:24David Sims:to being in an internship where I worked under his wife who was just like, you know what's weird? My husband was that guy in Dead Poets Society and then he kind of never acted again. I mean, good for him. I thought he was really good. He's really good. He's good.

1:36:39Griffin Newman:All the kids are good. Would you agree? I mean, like, yeah. Yes, yeah. I mean, but they all, and they all, I was just like amazed at how good the casting was because they all are like, you know, Ethan Hawke, Dr. Wilson. Yes. And that ginger bastard.

1:36:52David Sims:But it is this like era of, as David was saying, there was just like a crop of brown haired boys who were all just ready to go. And there were all these movies that kept being like, we need full review. That's the right now, though, don't you think? I think we're finally back. Like it was so because I was also I was talking to someone. I'm like, who's a movie star? Because there's so many white boys right now. Yes. But are any of them actually bankable? It's really good. I think the bankability is a question and it's very much still in flux. I think Tim to me is the only one who has like definitively proven himself in that area.

1:37:26David Sims:But it does feel like there is a really strong crop of young white guys for the first time in like 20 years. And they're all just and I think similar energy. They're all battling it out until someone is like, you know what? I need five of you. I'm like, oh, thank God. But the other difference is it feels like these guys all are a little bit Ethan Hawkey where they're just like, I fucking care about this and I want to do it right. And I don't care about being seen as dorky about loving acting. And I want to work with good people. They're not just like doing the movie star playbook. 100%. They want to be, like, important in a way that is, was seen as embarrassing for a while.

1:38:02David Sims:And I think that's finally come back around.

1:38:04Griffin Newman:It's interesting that, like, Hawk, who, as you say, like, had already done kid performances. He goes on to obviously be, pretty quickly, he's a star. Like, by 94, we've got Reality Bites. Yeah. But even in 91, he did, like, White Fang. He was doing kind of like, you know. But by Reality Bites, he is, like, a fully defined thing. Robert Sean Leonard, I feel like, just became one of those guys everybody likes. Yes. But it's the house role is sort of like a whole reinvention for him. Before then, it was like, oh, yeah, we love him, and he does theater.

1:38:36David Sims:I was going to say, I feel like he was one of those ultimate guys who was like, he's not that interested in chasing the Hollywood thing. He loves doing theater. He's so well-regarded in theater. Is he with Tony? He has. Did he win for Arcadia?

1:38:48Griffin Newman:Let's find out. I think he would be right. I think he would be right. No, you are wrong. He got a Tony nomination for Candida. Okay. I'm not sure if he did Arcadia. He did The Invention of Love. Oh, he won a Tony for The Invention of Love. Yay. Another Tom Stopper play. But did he do Arcadia? I'll find out. Okay. I did The Music Man at some point as well. That also sounds right. He sings? I can't remember. Yeah. Yeah, he replaced Craig Bierko in that Music Man. That's funny.

1:39:17David Sims:What, Chenoweth? I don't know. Sounds right. he yes incredibly respected David I've never been wrong once on this podcast not seen Chenoweth but you know Chenoweth the Arcadia thing because I need to be proven correct about this he did Arcadia woo woo Tom Stomper thank you guys so much it is what I was going to say is it's funny Billy Crada Victor Garber for someone who had this heat when he was young and such a huge part and such a huge movie that it was like and then he kind of like eschewed that whole thing and really focused on theater. And then you're like, right. And he did 10 years of house.

1:39:54David Sims:Yeah. He probably made$1 trillion. Oh my God. And it sets her life.

1:39:58Griffin Newman:That house role, it's the perfect fucking role because it's like, you probably only work one day a week. Perfect work. Yeah. Like mostly Wilson in that show is sitting behind his desk and house comes in and is like, I'm fucking house. I'm a rascal. You know, and Wilson's like, oh boy. And then like once in a while he does more stuff but usually you just do that.

1:40:18David Sims:He got paid like $150 ,000 per eye roll at Thing House Says. That show was so great. I was re-watching it and it's really good. Especially, I would say,

1:40:29Griffin Newman:the first three, four seasons. Yeah, yeah. I've gone beyond that point. I've just beat it off a bit. On fire is one of the most undeniable performances. But also so inappropriate. Oh my God. But I think the episode Three Stories, I mean, House is like beloved and people watch it all the time, but yet it's sort of forgotten in that early prestige era. Three Stories, which is from the first season of House, it is one of the most amazing pieces of TV writing. Is that the one? It's the one that reveals how he got the list. It's like an early season one. When he's being, he's, Cuddy forces him to do the lecture.

1:41:00Griffin Newman:Yes. Yes. Yeah. The Dead Poets decided, so he rips out the pages and he says, Carpe diem. Oh my God. Wait, okay, no, no, so this is what I was actually getting to, which was like the boys, they each have a thing they do, right? So the one boy is like, I'm going to kiss a girl without her consent. Another one is, I like theater now, all of a sudden. Nwanda is, I'm just going to change my name to Nwanda. I'm going to write appropriate every culture. Exactly. But he's also like, I'm going to live that life.

1:41:27David Sims:Yeah. He's kind of the original Jake Sully. Sure. In that he draws some paint on his face. thank you so much. Thank you so much for the... We got to go. Got to get out of here. Oh, man. Yes. No, they each have a little kind of mini arc of like, what does he empower them to be able to do? Yeah. It is funny that With distance, you're like, a few of these kids didn't need the empowering. Yeah, let me get out of sleep. Ethan Hawke, he empowers to be able to say a sentence out loud at room tone. Which I like that scene. It's really good. Yeah, I feel like this movie, what this movie does really well, it's very hard in a film to show an audience art and be like, this is good.

1:42:07Or to explain passion for an art form.

1:42:12David Sims:It is the Mr. Holland's opus thing that David always talks about. Which is what? You spend an entire movie being like this guy's fucking life's work and you do the opus at the end and it sucks ass. And you're like, this guy doesn't sell the audience on the power of music and his music is bad.

1:42:26Griffin Newman:To get mad about the Reddit, but there was some thread about my common complaint about Mr. Holland's opus, which is, of course, that yes, his opus is toilet. And people are like, he doesn't get the message that like actually all the kids he taught over the years are his opus. I'm like, I got that message. They kind of hammer it home.

1:42:45David Sims:I know the movie's not like fucking Chinatown I actually read that thread it's not like you couldn't you were telling us before you recorded that you read the Reddit way too much Nia I do I do

1:42:56Griffin Newman:we are your opus and he's like I guess so I mean like to be clear in the movie he's such a curmudgeon but then he's like oh yeah sure and then they're like and now you're opus and they're like it's just also here's a retort

1:43:08David Sims:if the kids were his opus is that that much of an accomplishment either they stink they all stink I can't sell this thing for a second. But you are right. I do think this is a movie that like actually sells you, the audience, on what it's trying to sell the kids. Yes. Right? Yes. And I also think it's a really good screenwriting decision that they like are sparked by the guy. They're like, what's this guy's fucking deal? They go and find the yearbook. They find the weird thing that they bring to him almost half-mockingly. Yeah. He doesn't say like, boys, this is what you need to do. Yeah. Go find a cave and read each other poems.

1:43:43David Sims:girls will show up. He's sort of beyond reproach to me personally. I mean, mine is destroying school property of the books, but I'm like he, you know, it's really well, they go off. I like that they're basically self-motivated.

1:43:57Griffin Newman:They are. Well, there's this question of like, you know, at the end of the movie Robert John Leonard's character says, you know, seeks his advice on the whole like, I want to act and my dad doesn't want me to do it. That scene is so good. That's incredible. The scene is really well acted Keating doesn't do anything wrong no but Keating definitely sort of knows like you can see on Williams's face like his dad's not gonna go for this this isn't going well like you know like because Keating says like look talk to him tell him how you feel about this exactly what you're saying to me right and then they have this second conversation where he's like and you talk to him and he's like yeah it didn't go well but you know and you're kind of like no it's not like Keating is responsible for this kid then killing himself or whatever but you are kind of like but it is it's all a little out of hand.

1:44:44Griffin Newman:You know, like, you know, he's not doing much communication up or with the parents or whatever. Like, he could be trying to intervene a little more.

1:44:51David Sims:The other thing I think Williams plays really well is you get the sense in him that he is questioning, am I responsible for this in any way, right? That he plays that very quietly. It's another thing that's helped by him not being the POV character of the movie. Right, so he's sort of in and out and you're not sure, like, how involved he is. But it doesn't feel like he fights the firing. and it's obviously not his fault but there is this part of him of just like I'm just telling kids to fucking you know say whatever they want and do whatever they want and I'm not really thinking about and you can't not feel totally somewhat not responsible but yeah in a way guilt has no logic really you know so exactly

1:45:30Griffin Newman:it's just crazy that the dad and then the administration blames his teaching instead of looking at the obvious, which is that the dad is forcing his son to do stuff that he really doesn't want to do. But they see it and they're like, that's what he should be doing. No, I understand. But it's just such an annoying example of bureaucracy that really gets under my skin. It's so stupid.

1:45:57David Sims:But I also think the school exists to mirror that viewpoint of the dad, right? Like the function of this school in terms of what it's promising parents is like, we're going to kick all the fucking weirdo shit.

1:46:09Griffin Newman:We're getting your kids ready for doctoring and lawyering and whatever.

1:46:14David Sims:That's the promise of the premise. You know, that's what's on the bottle here. It's like, we're going to make them fucking upstanding citizens of society. Yeah. Right.

1:46:21Griffin Newman:And it's just like, they're just printing doctor, lawyer.

1:46:24David Sims:Yeah. Right. And you see them side-eyeing Williams from the beginning, even before there's any demonstrable damage of what he's done. Yeah. Even before the Gail Hansen character has the act out or whatever. and there's anything they can sort of like reprimand Williams for, they're already like, this could be dangerous. You know, we don't need these kids like fucking believing in themselves. That's not what they're paying us for. I had that with my teacher, Mr. Rothwell in middle school. He got into trouble because he wanted us to read Antigone. And we were sixth graders, I think. It's a little early for Antigone.

1:46:58Dude, Antigone, but they created this. My wife teaches Antigone. What age?

1:47:02Griffin Newman:I would say more like ninth grade. Yeah, yeah, which, you know, yes. Me, however, I'd already read it because I'm a loser. And I, but I was like, yeah, there's a lot of suicide in that. Very dark things. I think incest is an Antigone as well. You know. I mean, Antigone is the sequel to Oedipus. Yeah, exactly. And yeah, so, but for us. That could have a bit of an Oedipal complex.

1:47:28David Sims:If you really think about it. That's my opinion. Griffin. Sorry. Absolutely. I'm sorry. No, I always forget, like, when I'm in the presence of it, I'm always like... Oh, of his bullshit? It's just unstoppable. Have I ever told you you're a bit boy?

1:47:44Griffin Newman:You're not wrong. This is like when Kevin Durant went on Bill Simmons years ago and started talking about the blog boys. You're a bit boy. You're a bit boy. You're a fucking bit boy. Bit boy over here. I'm a nasty little bit boy. I was telling a friend of mine who's a bit boy. I was like, oh, you're such a bit boy. He's like, what's a bit boy? I'm like, you're a boy doing bits. Yeah. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Laser accuracy. Yeah. Bit boy. Yeah. I love it for you, though. But this is your world. Bit boy away.

1:48:07David Sims:Look at it. Hey, the bits paid for all of this.

1:48:11Griffin Newman:You're sitting in a home of bits. Look upon the toys. Look at this merch. Look how many fucking toys there are.

1:48:17David Sims:All those figures paid for with bits. I also, sorry, because the monologue is like a long bit, but it's also like you are an actor. So it's like this, like it's in a bit sort of middle space. Oh, excellent. Jesus Christ. David did a bit at some point I don't remember if it was on mic or if it was off mic that's a really good question it's kind of that's become a bit of an Andy Kaufman thing where it's hard to tell where the bit ends is he still in control I don't know I'm so nervous oh I forgot to call my friend so we're all just taking phone calls sorry excuse me hello David at some point a couple years ago did an impression of his daughter being a teenager and being dismissive about the podcast and angrily saying, oh, those bits you're making fun, they paid for all of it.

1:49:09David Sims:They paid for your education.

1:49:10Griffin Newman:It's disgusting. It's disgusting. Yeah, you're getting all my shots about costs covered by his bits. My fucking bits. Bits pay the bills. Let's talk more about Dead Poets Society. Yeah. What is that? Just kidding. He fucking rips out the page. Carpe diem. Carpe diem. And then they paddle his ass. Yeah. I found that so upsetting. Principal paddled Robin Williams. Oh, that's a different kind of story. My guess is they're leaving it downstairs. Don't worry, it's fine. I just ordered it because I know I'm going to have to go pick up my daughter after this. I can't. I can't. Oh, should we talk about the script?

1:49:44I'm kidding. Yes.

1:49:45David Sims:Cope Diem does feel like it does not become a thing that anyone can say in any conversation and is understood without that movie, with this movie, right? Like, it does feel like even if people don't know that it's from Dead Poets Society anymore, Well, Griffin, it's Latin. It's right. It's, of course, from Horace's Odes. I'm saying, how many Latin phrases can you drop into any conversation without the need to translate?

1:50:09Griffin Newman:Certainly, Carpe Diem has always been in my life, and this movie came out when I was three. So, yes, maybe it's all just...

1:50:15David Sims:And even just, like, a basic kind of, like, frat boy level, like, Carpe motherfucking Diem.

1:50:20Griffin Newman:Like, the fact that you can just... Do you think it's funny that Robert Sean Leonard wants to be an actor? Mm-hmm. This school, of course... It rips the pages of the ball. this school doesn't have drama no so it's like he doesn't get to do a school play he has to do like local theater no it's the girls school it isn't the girls school yeah so sometimes the schools will um that is something that is something my school oh yeah yeah interesting alright alright because I think that's when they meet all the girls at the dance Laura Flynn Boyle and Laura Walters both basically cut out

1:50:50David Sims:of the film but Laura Flynn Boyle is one of the actresses in the play yeah oh I totally missed that interesting he plays Puck I played Puck oh you have Puck energy thank you

1:50:58Griffin Newman:Was he a grumpy puck? Was he a grumpy puck? Me? What?

1:51:05David Sims:You just told all the characters to get along with it.

1:51:08Griffin Newman:Whatever. Oh, yeah, yeah. I was like, yeah, yeah. Fucking girdle around the earth. 20 minutes. What do you want from me? Wait, how old were you when you played puck? I was like 14, maybe. Yeah, 14 or 15. Are you a good actor? No. No, very bad. Me neither. I had a sparkly... I have this like sparkly sweater David seems to lead cast of next feature yeah you're gonna do me a monologue no I'm a bad actor I liked drama because I like theater and I like Shakespeare I dug the class and all that I did it entirely in school but I just as Griffin knows I don't have a performance drive that engages enough or something I don't know I wasn't like blowing my lines.

1:51:57Griffin Newman:I think I was just kind of flat. Yeah. It was just kind of whatever.

1:52:00David Sims:You have pretty severe stage anxiety, if not stage fright. I guess so. But then I think we, when we were trying to... I just don't like it. Well, this is the bigger thing I was going to say. Because I'm not like some people

1:52:10Griffin Newman:where like true people are like having a panic attack or throwing up before they get on a stage.

1:52:15David Sims:When we started doing live shows and we don't do them often. Yeah, I was going to say. And it felt like it was a little bit of an uphill battle to get you to do them. I felt like you had more acute anxiety leading up to the first couple. and then there was the moment where Ben and I were like he's going to get out there and realize like the audience will be happy whatever he says and he's going to get the bug and I remember you walking off stage one time and being like yeah I just feel nothing it doesn't like I feel a relief of the anxiety I had before but like I guess I don't have the juice that makes people want to do this

1:52:42Griffin Newman:because it's like it's a sickness to want to do like open mics right because it's like you're punishing yourself because you're going in front of these people who are hostile and being like hey so here's what's up with my dick if you need that. I saw a picture of you dressed up as Waddle. Oh, yeah. And I just really, because I think as listeners know, my first impression of Griffin is and David are trivia monsters because they're so good and he never would win. And the second is as just like a comedian doing VH1 bits. Right, right, right. So to see you dressed as Waddle, I was like, oh, this is his true form?

1:53:17It is. Yeah. Yeah.

1:53:19David Sims:I just, yeah. It's sort of like, but it speaks to that exact what is broken inside me that I have to put on a Watto costume.

1:53:26Griffin Newman:Right. Multiple times. Like whatever rush I should be, visceral rush I should be getting from performing. I think I'm not getting it because that would drive me to want to do it lots more. Ben, what are you going to say? We just got to though say that you are really great. You're very good. It's very nice of you. I think I'm totally fine performing in front of fans of Blank Check who are obviously a warm audience.

1:53:44David Sims:But no, but you do come alive doing it and then you just walk off and you're like, huh, so you guys like love doing that? I'm not dismissive at all, to be clear.

1:53:51Griffin Newman:I don't want it to sound like I am. We always get feedback where people are like, David's so great. Yeah. He's so good live. But that means your mental hygiene must be really good. Yeah, he's the most normal man alive. Yeah, like, wait a second. There's plenty wrong up here. Let me open my fifth spreadsheet. That's where it's all going.

1:54:12David Sims:It is another, like, I just think, like, masterfully realized and judged sequences in this movie is, Robert Sean Leonard after the play backstage and just a series of like very kind of understated moments of just that feeling of oh my god I found my thing that is played out entirely on this kid's face he's really good before

1:54:35Griffin Newman:too when he's nervous and he knows his dad's out there and you can see him like again just on his face like should I just fucking not

1:54:43David Sims:do this you know and you also hope that it's like the dad's gonna come up to him and be like I was wrong, son. What you did out there was magic. I want to put my foot in your critic's ass. Yeah. Sister Act 2, you know? Right. It's like, you think... Yeah, you want it to be a School of Rock moment where they're all like, we were wrong. We get it. You have to do this. Yeah. And yeah, the fact that he has this sort of like private moment backstage, not even with the rest of the cast who are all complimenting him, but then he like goes into the blind spot behind the curtain and just kind of like takes a breath in.

1:55:15David Sims:and it's just like you're like this guy feels complete for the first time in his entire life and he knew it from the moment he auditioned that there was something there yeah but having completed it so successfully i'm thinking also maybe maybe my dad's i'm showing my dad and now he's seen me and he's in that one moment of maybe yeah because then he has but then his because then he's like oh your dad's want like is back there and he has a moment where he's like maybe oh fuck he comes around yeah he comes around the curtain and he looks and his dad is still just standing against the back wall and the audience is basically emptied out and it's like, oh my God, he's here.

1:55:47David Sims:Yeah. He stayed through it. He's waiting to talk to me. Yeah. Isn't,

1:55:52Griffin Newman:correct me if I'm wrong because I've only seen the movie once in the last 25 years or whatever. It's like, Kerwood Smith's character, it's like they're not old money like some of these kids. Correct. He's successful. He's like a doctor or something. But he grew up kind of poor. It's implied that he's a little bit of a thing. And so he has a little bit of the kind of like, you cannot be fucking around. He keeps saying,

1:56:10David Sims:we don't have the kind of money yeah

1:56:12Griffin Newman:I mean the suicide scene is like I mean it's very like tastefully done by we or whatever but the mom saying he's okay is like very upsetting the whole thing is awful

1:56:24David Sims:and Kurt Smith's response at the same time right

1:56:28Griffin Newman:I don't like that he kills himself because I don't think he should have done that no it just feels like you cast judgment I don't quite know if the movie earns it entire. I had a similar feeling. It's like, why did he do it? His dad wouldn't let him act. I'm just like, I don't think we got there, guys. And it more feels like the movie just had to have an ending that was sad. And then Ethan Hawke's crying in the snow. I just wanted more because I think part of, and I understand we're telling Wilson not to do the whole, not to lead up to the suicide, not to have that. Don't play that over your head.

1:57:07I think I needed, and also to be fair like you know i mean i went to nyu did you go to nyu too i didn't i dropped out of cal arts okay beautiful yeah um went to nyu and like when i was there someone killed themselves in boops in the library because you could oh before you could jump over them into the lobby kind of infamous yeah yeah and several people had done that and yes you know and you know so of course people no but the way people talked about them was like was like oh they seemed like i'd never expected but i think in the context of a film obviously the point is emotional legibility unless you're making head of gobbler um um and and it's like if you're making you know someone's gonna fucking do something everyone needs to die but um but uh you know i i just felt like it didn't the math wasn't completely mathing i yeah for me i think yeah i in re-watching it

1:57:56David Sims:thought i was going to reject it feeling like too much of a push narratively it went down more smoothly. I bought it more than I was expecting to. It's mostly because it's so well done. It's mostly because he makes the sequence kind of dreamlike. And I think by giving it that space and making it largely wordless and making it feel kind of like weirdly magical, right? There is this sense of, and I think it's what you're talking about with like how many college suicides there are. And even like at places like this, at boarding schools like this yeah i think these places that are this like high pressure concentration of energy about your future we are preparing you for your future yeah we are trying to break you down to be able to accomplish great things it's a very like combustible kind of potion they're they're brewing of like you're making people think so much about the pressure of this moment as a fulcrum point as in a series of focal points to be able to unlock the future you want or not.

1:59:08David Sims:And is it the future you want or is it the future you were told you need to pursue or whatever it is, right? And I think you do get young people under tremendous amount of pressure who just like break on a bad night. Yeah. Not it being the end result of years of suicidal ideation, but this feeling of, you know, I think it is, there is a narrative convenience to it. just by a little bit but I think what it sells fairly well that I just buy enough is that like the high high and the low low so close together of this guy finding this moment teenage calibration and his dad's like you're gonna go to here that it's like a manic cycle I have just found myself for one solitary moment I'm immediately told that door is closed it is impossible and in that moment it's you know what you hear about a lot with teen suicide is just like you wish you could tell them that like you will get past this, right?

2:00:05David Sims:That this is like a bad night, that this is not the rest of my life. Keating says, well, you're turn 18, you can do whatever you want. Totally. And I think that was the one line for me where I was like, oh, because again, like not like almost like forgetting what was coming. Oh, yeah, he'll do that. But he's fighting so hard. You don't know my dad. You don't understand. You understand. Keating's like, no, truly, trust me, trust me, just say it. He'll see it. And when he's been told that, he wants to believe that. he feels such a sense of euphoria from the performance and then his dad comes down.

2:00:35David Sims:So fucking hard.

2:00:36Griffin Newman:So that's the thing that makes sense. And in a way that's not even vindictive

2:00:39David Sims:as much as just like, this is fucking reality. It's not happening. We can't afford this. We don't have generational wealth. You need to keep this up. There are no other choices. The house is too big for him to be going on like that place. I agree. That's the thing that also is a little bit confusing for the dad's math where I'm like, because my dad's an sister similar. We haven't spoken in many years. But it's like the logic is less about like it's all about his trauma. Exactly. And his inability to feel. That's the whole thing. And I think the moment where he talks to his mom and his mom's like, sorry.

2:01:11You're just like, oh, like he just really feels alone.

2:01:15David Sims:Well, Kurtwood Smith's like, I had it rough. And this is what I had to do to become successful. And the proper way for me to parent you is to do that as well rather than being like, I went through that to be able to give you a better, more supportive life. Yeah. Right. Where you do have options and autonomy. I also think it's such a good choice that like Herbert Smith has his like sort of like complete immediate breakdown at like my son, my son, my son. And then his wife comes in and is in absolute denial at it. And he starts yelling at her.

2:01:48Griffin Newman:Yeah.

2:01:48David Sims:Right. He lashes out at her and Inger. He shows genuine vulnerability.

2:01:51Griffin Newman:But it's a very, very honest moment. Exactly. There's genuine vulnerability.

2:01:55David Sims:and guilt when he sees his son's body. And then when his wife comes in and starts reacting emotionally, he's, stop it, stop it. Yeah. Like, it's that guy. It's control. He's like, shh. He does not have the emotional freedom to be able to really help any of the people in his life, even at his absolute lowest moment. Yeah. I love the way, because, you know, you always think with, like, suicide scenes, like, okay, then he finds a gun, then it'll be, boom, you hear the gunshot. And the fact that there's no gunshot, he just wakes up. It's just the dad waking up. Oh, my God. Another excellent guy. And then he walks around.

2:02:26Griffin Newman:That's what Weird knows just to pull back. Yep. Like, you know, and that's why this movie works. Yeah. I agree. Are you coming around, too? Look, this is, I gave it three stars on Letterboxd. And that was the rating I had. I was just like, this is a movie that totally works for me.

2:02:42David Sims:I just think it kind of undeniably works.

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2:05:06Okay, can we have a letterboxd moment? Please. Okay, so... I don't want to say this. We can always cut it out. Okay. I have a secret letterboxd. Hell yes. Hell yeah. I just started it because Max Minghella was like, you need to do it. It's at pulpit. I'm not telling anyone. No, no, no. I'm not letting any of my friends know because then people might find clues and, you know, it's stressful. But I have an experience where I rated a film two stars, but then I also put, boop, like it. Yeah, sure. Have you done this? Tell me more.

2:05:34Griffin Newman:I think that is a very, like, good way to think about letterboxd. because people get very tied up on Letterboxd. Yeah. Well, what should my rating scale be? Or do I just not do ratings and I just do hearts? And I'm like, two stars and a like? That's a kind of movie that I have in my... Absolutely. You know what I mean? Deep Blue Sea is probably a two star and a like movie. Deep Blue Sea is a perfect example. Our friend Ben David Grabinski... I cannot defend a second of that movie. Our friend Ben David Grabinski... He goes five stars or nothing.

2:06:01David Sims:Oh. Well, I basically do that. I now only give a star rating if it's five or if I really think of things stinky poo-poo and I want to make a statement with a one. And that's usually I'm like, this movie is like cynical, like end of culture bullshit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I used to do more starring. Now I'm just like, I give it five stars if I'm like, I'm officially ready to say, I think this is a perfect masterpiece. Officially, what the fuck am I talking about? But otherwise it's a binary, like heart or no heart. Sure, sure, sure. And I'm just like, and it used to be like heart means I love it.

2:06:32David Sims:Now I'm like, heart means I like it. Yeah, yeah. Heart means you're positive, yeah. Yeah, I think we have to step away. I think especially with like review aggregators, which are so upsetting. I just feel like ratings mean less and less. Like reviews are so much more interesting than like.

2:06:49Griffin Newman:I don't give grades as a critic because The Atlantic doesn't do that. If I worked somewhere else that did that, I guess. But people don't really do that much anymore. Yeah, no, because it's a bit weird to be like. But I love my Letterboxd star ratings. And I love how mad they make people. not famous people or important people but weird nerds who are like well he gave three stars to this and then you know I also see that he reviewed it again went down half a star and it can't be as mad as David Ehrlich's reviews makes people because that is

2:07:18David Sims:like he cracks me up do you know what's so funny is that people get so mad and they're like this guy fucking sucks his opinions suck and then when he swings in and is like one battle after another five stars people are like we're cooking we're so back Ehrlich likes it like ham mat When he likes the movie you're excited about, suddenly his opinion means a lot.

2:07:38Griffin Newman:The weird thing that they'll do with him is they're like, well, he didn't like it. That means I'll like it. Because he didn't like another movie I liked. I have a reviewer that's like that for me where I'm like, I love the reviews, but I... Name, name. Can you bleep it? Yeah, we'll bleep it. Oh, yes. He's the best example. I love his reviews, but he rated... Bleep this movie as well. really highly and I was like that's one of the worst films I've seen and I would say that

2:08:08David Sims:well I can't talk about this yeah but here's like a very specific example to you right I'd never seen the Annabelle movies I'm like I should fucking watch the Annabelle movies the first Annabelle movie I saw you logging it the first one is it's such absolute dog shit it is astonishing how bad it is right then the second one is like one of the best like salvation that's one set in the past right

2:08:28Griffin Newman:it's very good the one with Anthony LaPolla

2:08:31David Sims:Right, and I was just sort of like, oh, this one's like resetting the table and just ignoring the first one. And then the last 20 minutes, it finds a way to tie back into everything that was bad in the first one, but make it good retroactively. It's a very solid movie. And I was like, holy shit, heart, heart. Isn't that the best kind of surprise? It's like when I watched The Conjuring for the first time. It's David Sandberg. Who rules? Yeah, good director. So I watched that. Annabelle. Creation. Creation. Yeah. Then I go see your movie, Hedda. Right? And then I'm like, yeah, loved it. Heart. And then I go home and I'm like, time for Annabelle to come.

2:09:01David Sims:And I watched Annabelle come home and I'm like, yeah, pretty good. Heart. And then I'm looking at it and I'm like, does this look weirdly? Is that about, I don't think I've seen her come home. Me either. I think it's quite good. Oh, I want to watch that. But I'm like, if you were like two junky horror sequels that I'm giving hearts and a sandwich around a movie that are friend made. Right. Am I like being rude to Hedda or devaluing that? No, listen, I'll share space with Annabelle. My answer is I watched three Annabelle movies. I now have a sliding scale of Annabelle movies and I'm like two of these are good at the assignment of making Annabelle and because the first one is so bad I'm like giving the other two positive reviews also Annabelle and Hedda are both two women who are in a world that has boxed them in Annabelle is literally in a doll sitting in chairs causing chaos sitting in chairs in beautiful dresses causing chaos causing chaos so I get it

2:09:48Griffin Newman:the real Annabelle is just a fucking raggedy do you know this the real Annabelle yeah yeah straight up and then did you see the guy who died yeah and then they were like we found out the cause of death cardiac event. And I'm like, fucking Annabelle event is what that was. Cotton in his mouth. I should have been touching that doll. Fucking stitched up. Dude, that whole thing is, and Matt Reif bought the doll. Yeah, Matt Reif bought

2:10:09David Sims:the fucking Warren house. Matt Reif owns Annabelle now. I hope Annabelle, you know.

2:10:14Griffin Newman:He's too powerful if he can afford that. He's giving tours

2:10:16David Sims:of the fucking Annabelle house. Anyway, I think both of the Annabelle sequels are good.

2:10:20Griffin Newman:Fair enough. Yeah. I haven't seen Annabelle come home and I haven't seen The Curse of La Garona. I'm halfway through that one. Oh, I watched that on a plane once. I always mess up the pronunciation.

2:10:31David Sims:Here's what Annabelle Comes Home does that is smart.

2:10:33Griffin Newman:Here's what Annabelle Comes Home does that is smart. He says, we get ready to wrap up on Dead Poets Society. Patrick Wilson and Vera Farmiga are back in it as the Warrens.

2:10:41David Sims:But they're only at the beginning and the end. And the movie is basically their young daughter, who's McKenna Grace. It's her birthday and they're like, oh, but we got called in to do some demonic thing. We're sorry we're missing your birthday. We have a babysitter who's going to watch you. and teen girl watching McKenna Gray sound, who's starting to get the feelings and is like struggling with being seen as like the creepy girl, right? Invites her friend over to help babysit with her. Yeah. And her friend is like, oh, the house with all the creepy shit? And she starts fucking with stuff. And then the movie is basically like a haunted house movie set in the Warren house when they're not there.

2:11:20And then we get Vera sometimes being like, something's happening. Very beginning, very end.

2:11:24David Sims:The superstructure of the movie is basically what if two teenagers are stuck in the Warren house without them there? And they're like, what's this bowling ball? And it's like, no, that bowling ball killed eight people

2:11:34Griffin Newman:in Delaware.

2:11:36David Sims:Because the problem with Annabelle is Annabelle doesn't come to life. She doesn't move. She sits in a chair and then bad shit happens. It's crazy they made

2:11:41Griffin Newman:three Annabelle movies

2:11:43David Sims:without... So they clearly knew there was not a third movie worth of Annabelle shit. So they were like, put her back in the house and then everything in the house can go wrong. Yeah, yeah. It's smart. I guess I haven't seen The Nun 2. The Nuns are my next. I'd never watched any of the spinoffs I was a main The Conjuring nothing has met The Conjuring I agree where it is The Conjuring to me is like one of the best horror films that have come out it's so good I wish Juan had come back and done three he's so good he's so good you mean done three or done four well both but it felt like they didn't make three for so long and started making all the spinoffs because they were like he's really busy and he wants to come back eventually and then it was like he's never coming back is it because he was doing Aquaman Malignant I mean I love that he did Malignant

2:12:29Griffin Newman:Malignant rocks I Yeah I had so many emotions watching that film I love that movie That picture So he Carpe diem What are some other moments that we like I like when they kick the ball And they have to quote lines of poetry I think that's really fun I like the yop scene Where the camera's spinning around them and I was like, it's such a great way to just like, the energy of it's so good. I love when Ethan Hawke has to say one sentence and that's its entire plot. Someone said to me before I started watching it, they were like, yeah, it's interesting because basically Ethan Hawke's the lead of the film and I watched it and I was like, he's not, he's not less than Robin.

2:13:11Yeah, he's important.

2:13:13David Sims:He's offline. He's kind of the passive POV character in a weird way.

2:13:18Griffin Newman:It's crucial that at the end, he's the one saying to him, like, they made us sign that, like, you know. he's like the silent captain who you're just kind of

2:13:26David Sims:pinning throughout the whole movie and then he doesn't really come alive until the end

2:13:29Griffin Newman:what kind of like reference do you think Keating's getting out the door for his next next yeah he's going back to England where they don't have internet so they don't know I know we made jokes

2:13:38David Sims:but can we talk about the Josh Charles thing a little bit because as you said each of the kids has like a thing they need to self-actualize it like really does not play well today I'm not even saying this with like modern like you know politics you're just like it is kind of just like such a creepy movie construction. It is what our friend Chris Gethard calls an ultimate but I like her plot. Alexandra Powers is the actress playing Chris. Who's very pretty and has become a Scientologist. Oh, is that right? Her Wikipedia is just like, and then in 2010, she figured it out by becoming a Scientologist.

2:14:10I did see this, yes. It has a section of like,

2:14:12David Sims:and then everything got figured out. Listen, life's hard, man. You gotta, sometimes you gotta just, you gotta carpet the deal. You need something to help you shoulder the weight of the meaningless universe. But Gethard's point was basically for decades, many, many movies, could get away with if a nice boy cares really deeply. His crush is very genuine. Right, he's not threatening.

2:14:32Griffin Newman:Josh Charles.

2:14:33David Sims:But I like her. You just stay with it until she finally gives in. Yeah. And is like rewarded for it. So upsetting. And then the story just kind of drops. Look, I think he's good in this and he's sweet and he's charming and you're like, the behavior is so bizarre. He's selling it in a way where you're like not you're almost falling for it but she like answers a door and he's like that is the love of my life and people are like okay can you go off and then he's just like truly I'm not giving up on this and they're like she's got a boyfriend she's setting boundaries she said no thank you she said don't come to my school and she's like yeah she said no thank you for now exactly

2:15:10Griffin Newman:you know what this character in SWAT was called what TJ McCabe that's great high school parties are they have that specific thing where people make out just publicly in front of everyone. Sure. And that only kind of, I feel like, lasts for a little bit. By college, it's like, get a room. Yeah, exactly.

2:15:28David Sims:It is just so funny to me that the construction of these types of plot lines is so often, oh, sweet, sensitive, nice boy, self-insert for screenwriter, has crush on beautiful, unattainable girl who is dating, like, meathead, sort of, like, emotionally unbalanced jock, right? Is this something that is common in life? In the time period? Yeah. It's just like, That's so many stories. I think it is the way that a certain type of person who is very prone to becoming a screenwriter likes to reframe their experiences. Of not being liked. Yes. She's trapped by that hot guy. Or make the kind of revisionist history of like, and this is how I wish it had turned out.

2:16:06David Sims:Yeah. But it is always kind of hinging on this moment of the guy lashes out and beats the shit out of the nice boy. And that's the moment that makes her wake up from his spell. Right. and then has to sort of like Florence Nightingale tend to him and be like, he's so awful, I can't believe it and see it. Because no one in movies can ever put a bandit on by themselves. Right. It is so crazy that the version of that that happens in this movie is a moment where Josh Charles is empirically in the wrong. Yeah. That the thing that makes the guy punch him in the face is actually valid. She's passed out on a couch and he's stroking her face.

2:16:40David Sims:And kissing her forehead. Where I'm like, even if there was no background, if this is their first time seeing this guy, it'd be like who the fuck are you yeah throw him in the snow yuck yes she wakes up and is freaked out and he's just like but but but I like you what if you come see a play with me yeah exactly and she's like I guess I'm gonna see the play and you're like it's very but no one has really significant Nwanda again my baby girl love love Nwanda he's the one who I'm most impressed by and then he disappears

2:17:11Griffin Newman:because he gets it's interesting because he's right he's the defiant one who's like we gotta do all this and we gotta have Poet Society and all that.

2:17:19David Sims:That Robin moment is good too when he comes back in and he's like expecting to get like applause. Oh yeah. And he's just like, no, dumb. Don't get kicked out. Like then all of this was for nothing. Exactly. Use your privilege.

2:17:32Griffin Newman:No wonder it's the one who gets his name's Charlie. I'm sorry. It's the one who gets paddled and I do think the paddling scene is good because it's so ineffectual and yet also horrible. Like it's like Like, on the one hand, this kid's getting beaten by his teacher. Yeah. Institutional. The other hand, it's just so weird. It's just like this grown kid, like, across the knees of an old man. He's got this, like, it's just. Also watching him to see how painful it is. Just like, it's dark.

2:17:58David Sims:But I also think it's good character construction for Keating that he's just like, no, I'm not telling you to just, like, fuck everything up. Like, I still want you to learn shit. Yeah. If you get kicked out of this school, no one's benefiting and I'll get fired, you know? And it's the part of him that you could see so quickly blaming himself, at least partially, for the suicide. Because it's like, I'm trying to push them just up to the line without breaking them. Look, the end is... Oh, Captain, my captain! It pays out like a slob. I teared up. Yeah. Couldn't believe it. It is just incredibly effective.

2:18:35David Sims:Thank you, boys. Shout out, Walt, man.

2:18:37Griffin Newman:So good. Walt Whitman, the best. Mr. Whitman. Of course, Oh, Captain, My Captain is actually about Abraham Lincoln, as Keating says in the movie. I have that in the Marvel movie that I made, Oh, Captain, My Captain. I forgot. Wait. Well, unless they cut it. Did you not go to? No, I just. Does Ms. Marvel say that to Captain Marvel? Yeah, she's like zooming around, like killing all these Kree in these ships. And then she goes, Oh, Captain, My Captain. And then we whip pan over to Monica. And she's like, Are you good, girl? Like, you're crazy. That's fine. Yeah, it was funny. But we had a whole...

2:19:11Anyway.

2:19:12David Sims:You had a scene where all the... All the Cree got up on a chair. That was the joke. I was going to make the Cree get on their desk. I stole the bit from the bit boy. They get on their desk. Have fun with that bit. Thank you so much. It's yours. That's your take-home gift. People forget.

2:19:26Griffin Newman:This film won Best Picture at the British, the Baptist.

2:19:29David Sims:Yeah, it also won Best Foreign Film. At the Caesars. And the Italian... Oh, wow. I forget what it's called. Davide Donatello.

2:19:35Griffin Newman:Yes.

2:19:36David Sims:Like, this was kind of the most respected American film in Europe. Do you think it's because of the suicide? Partially. Yeah, come on. I think it's also because it's like a movie about, like, the power of... Poetry? It's a very romantic film about culture and art.

2:19:55Griffin Newman:Did it lose Best Picture 2? What year was this? 1989.

2:19:59David Sims:So this is the year after Rain Man. Mm-hmm. It loses Best Picture 2. Dances with Wolves? Nope, that's the year after. Fuck. Oh, that was my guess. What's the thing in between? It's not the most memorable Best Picture winner. It's, oh. It is. You've watched them all. I have not. To date, it is the worst Best Picture winner I have seen. Oh, it's not even close to the worst I have seen. It's not a very good movie. Try Miss Daisy. Oh, damn. It felt like I was confounded by watching it for the first time last year.

2:20:32Griffin Newman:Really?

2:20:33David Sims:I just think that movie is nothing.

2:20:35Griffin Newman:It's not nothing. It's fine.

2:20:38David Sims:I think it's nothing. I was expected to be more outraged by it while also being like, oh, but it's manipulative. It kind of works. And I was just like, this movie is just a, it just feels so slight to me. It's pretty slight. I mean, this is my stage play. My crazy take. Green Book is better than Driving Miss Days.

2:20:57Griffin Newman:I have Green Book 1 above Driving Miss Days on the Best Picture list. That is so crazy. Yeah. No, Dremendous Day is not very good. It's the year that Born on the Fourth of July is sort of the frontrunner and wins Best Director. And then Driving with Stacey, I guess, is the little movie that could for whatever reason.

2:21:12David Sims:But it's also obviously forever the year that is defined by not nominating Do the Right Thing.

2:21:17Griffin Newman:Do the Right Thing is obviously resigned to supporting actor and screenplay. But it's also, it's like three of the other nominees are My Left Foot, inspirational true story drama, Dead Poets Society, inspirational quasi-true story drama, and then Field of Dreams made up inspirational. Wait, Field of Dreams? Yes. Is an Oscar nominated? Don't you come in my house and come at Field of Dreams after defending Dead Poets Society, which is treacle. You know what it is? I think I saw that movie at a time where a lot of those baseball men in cornfield movies were out. Yes. Or at least the collection of them.

2:21:57Exactly. Sure. And so they all sort of are the same in my head because I've not seen them since the 90s.

2:22:02David Sims:Field of Dreams is incredible. Is it amazing? It's pretty. It's one of those movies that you're just like, this should not work. It's like Bull Durham. I'm kidding. Bull Durham is the flip side, which is like baseball is fucking horny. Bull Durham is just like straight up the best movie. Field of Dreams is just like, I miss my dad.

2:22:19Griffin Newman:I think I need to build a cornfield to summon the ghosts of the Chicago Black Sox. That's what I thought. Field of Dreams is the best.

2:22:26David Sims:Field of Dreams is like Ratatouille. where if you like lay out the plot, you're like, are you insane? What do you mean that's your idea?

2:22:35Griffin Newman:It's about like the sort of the boomer dream like coming, you know, where the boomers are like, what? What? I'm a grown up now. What the fuck? You know, we're forgetting another inspiring film, of course, Major League One and Two. Very inspiring. Let's go in this fucking thing. I love, I love the one and two of it all. You learn. Let's have some fun. Play baseball.

2:22:55David Sims:Those are great movies. Williams loses to Dale Day-Lewis. Williams versus Daniel Day-Lewis. Supporting? There's no nominees for supporting. I know, but I'm saying, I love re-watching the fucking Siskel-Nieber Oscar specials. And it's a big thing that whole season where they're just like, and by the way, it is insane category fraud that Robin Williams is in. They were just banging that drum. Wait, who won Best Supporting that year?

2:23:18Griffin Newman:Denzel Washington won Best Supporting Actor for Glory. Okay, so he wasn't going to beat Denzel. Actually. No. Wait, who was it? Oh, Robin? No. I want you to do the mental exercise. You've also got Martin Lando in Crimes and Misdemeanors, which is an incredible performance. Oh, so it wouldn't have mattered. And Danny Ayala and Do the Right Thing, which is an incredible performance.

2:23:33David Sims:They just wanted to do the mental exercise. No.

2:23:35Griffin Newman:To me, it is a lead performance in that same way as Hannibal Lecter. It's energetically, yeah. It is spiritually in the entire movie. He is the focus of the movie in this weird way. It's like, it's not a supporting performance. That's nonsense. I think it's a lead performance. I think Lecter, I agree with you, Lecter being a lead. Who would be the lead of the movie?

2:23:54David Sims:Robert Conlon, in my opinion. No.

2:23:57Griffin Newman:David made the stinky poo poo face. And Brenda Fricker won Best Supporting Actress for My Left Foot, which is a lovely performance, and she's a wonderful actor. And Tandy wins Actress. It's an odd, you know. And Jessica Tandy, of course, wins this actress. And this, Dead Poets Society filled with ladies in lead roles. No, I mean, there was, but Dead Poets Society does win Best Writing Screenplay Written Directly for the Screen Over. Take a, listen to this. Okay, so it beats. Listen to who is speaking. Oh, no. This is why you're mad. It beats, listen to me, listen to me. Crimes and misdemeanors, Woody Allen.

2:24:30Griffin Newman:Yeah. Say what you will, one of his best films.

2:24:33David Sims:Perhaps his best words.

2:24:34Griffin Newman:Do the Right Thing by Spike Lee. Sex, Lies, and Videotape by Steven Soderbergh. And When Harry Met Sally by Nora Ephron. What the actual vlog? It is by far the worst nominee. I agree. You know what? I hate the movie now, too. It's a piece of shit.

2:24:46David Sims:I get your ire at the screenplay.

2:24:48Griffin Newman:It is fucking bananas. Yeah. Any of those wins would be great. Yeah. Any of those wins. I mean, Woody Allen would be kind of like, he has enough Oscars. Fuck that. Yeah, that's crazy. But I mean, Spike Lee, Steven Sutter, it's crazy.

2:24:58David Sims:That is crazy.

2:24:59Griffin Newman:And obviously, that's the thing. I think at the time, it's sort of like, oh, well, they're all up and coming. But guess who else was up and coming? The fucking eight heads in a duffel bag guy. Up and came to nothing. It ends up being like, right.

2:25:11David Sims:Okay, easy.

2:25:13Griffin Newman:Easy.

2:25:15David Sims:The anointment is almost like a death sentence for Shulman. Whereas everyone else.

2:25:19Griffin Newman:I mean, obviously, he had a totally solid Hollywood career. But it's just nuts to look at that list. And you're just like, what? That is crazy. And it is, 89 Oscars is the most like ghastly Oscars because they're like, no, I think I feel the drive of this thing. You know, like they're watching cinema change around them and they're like, no, no, no, no, no, no. Let me hold this close. Who directed Riding the Stacey?

2:25:41David Sims:Of course, Bruce Beresford directed it. And it was infamously at the time, one of the only examples of a movie winning best picture without a best director nomination. Bruce Beresford, too clear. Which speaks to the, like even the attitude of that movie at the time. Yeah. It's sort of like...

2:25:55Griffin Newman:He was a good director. Breaker Marant's a great movie. Tender Mercies is an amazing movie. Crimes of the Heart is all right.

2:26:01David Sims:I like his pre-Driving Miss Daisy.

2:26:03Griffin Newman:Exactly. And then he kind of became more of like a Hollywood hack in the 90s. Mr.

2:26:07David Sims:Church is like one of the worst things I've ever seen.

2:26:09Griffin Newman:Double Jeopardy he directed.

2:26:10David Sims:Not bad. Yeah. Is that one of the Ashley Judds? Double Jeopardy is fun. I love the Ashley Judds of the 90s. If you were Ashley Judd in the 90s... Your husband was always trying to kill you. Yeah. Girl. Good luck.

2:26:19Griffin Newman:You're the star of the movie, but you better get on a swivel. this film came out June 9th 1989 in middle of the summer somewhat limited release 600 screens so it's opening at number 3 7.5 million dollars which is amazing per screen average 680 screens and it ends up at like 101 domestic it made domestically come on the numbers 95 and worldwide 239 it was I think worldwide it was the 5th biggest movie of the year yeah crazy and it is crazy that it came out in summer because this is like the most fall, wintry movie. But it ran and ran.

2:26:59David Sims:The true dominancy of 90s Robin Williams is you have these like huge hits that are like, of course, that's what Robin Williams does. Like Aladdin and like Doubtfire and Birdcage. Is Jack Black the heir to Robin Williams right now? It's a fair... In the sense of like... I mean, I watched a Minecraft movie on the plane. And I feel like I went on the thing that you hate that movie so much with a deep passion. Or did you like it?

2:27:24Griffin Newman:I did not like it I kind of enjoyed that movie it was great for the plane the plane was louder I think Jack Black is one of those guys where it's like even the sort of silliest nothing he's we have been talking about this

2:27:41David Sims:Minecraft does feel like the moment where you're like it is undeniable he is the greatest family comedy star of all time he certainly is the most dominant of all time where you're basically like from the school of rock

2:27:52Griffin Newman:But Robin Williams is a good comp in terms of that kind of like family live action star who made tons of money. I guess he doesn't have the drama.

2:28:00David Sims:Not as much. He's done some. Right. I think what happened with Jack Black is obviously like cool, edgy comedy guy. Right. Then like makes surprising like crossover success into family comedy star. Yeah. Surprising in a way that retroactively makes perfect sense. Right. And then he's like does some things like Margot at the Wedding where he's like trying to stretch himself. The holiday. No. But it's like. Right. those things don't go over well at the time his adult comedies start bombing and he's like i guess the only zone i play in is like family comedy star so he like doubles down on that while doing his youtube videos and tenacious d and he does youtube video jables oh man i don't i don't do the youtube um but yes he like just really was like as a movie actor my career is family comedies and i'm gonna embrace this and he never fucking phones it in yeah and if you zoom out you're just Like the guy's basically untouched for like a 25 year run.

2:28:54David Sims:Yeah. And he means like as much to my little like six year old cousin as he did to like my sister when she was six. Yeah. And to me and whatever. Whereas Robin Williams, it's like by the time you get to the 2000s, the family movies don't work anymore. Yeah. The 90s were his sweet spot for that. Yeah. I would like to see Jack Black be able to like find his Dead Poets Society. Good Will Hunting.

2:29:17Griffin Newman:School of Rock is his Dead Poets Society, but like maybe an even more dramatic version of it.

2:29:21David Sims:But the way we were talking with Robin Williams, they found these movies that weren't like playing against his comedy. Yeah. But they recontextualized it and like pulled. He needs like a Peter Weir or someone to pull the thing out of him.

2:29:32Griffin Newman:I have to tell you that. Maybe it's you. Disney was freaked out about the title and they almost called the movie The Unforgettable Mr. Keating. Well, fuck that.

2:29:42David Sims:So hard. Help so much.

2:29:44Griffin Newman:And they also registered Keating's Wade. which is even that's like nobody's gonna want to see that that's horrifying

2:29:50David Sims:Cutter's Way was pretty reasonable

2:29:51Griffin Newman:yeah that's true um but Weir was like this is an accessible movie like they were freaking out about nothing and it starts to test and they got like insane scores and they essentially were like oh shit you know so they moved it right to the middle of summer it is one of those movies

2:30:07David Sims:where the ending is so fucking strong that people are gonna be coming out of the theater pumping their fucking fists and this is an era where like word of mouth could really make a movie a hit over a sustained period of time. Oh, I thought Ben was going to punch you again. He's getting me a Sour Patch Kid. Are you pointing out the screenplay Oscar win? It's just like, it does feel like this movie was so huge they had to give it something.

2:30:27Griffin Newman:I think a little bit, but I also, yeah, I think all the other movies we listed were challenging and this is not as challenging a movie. Now, number one at the box-ups, though. June 9th, 1989. Now, wait. What? What's going on? Apparently it opened on eight screens the week before, which is not even listed on the numbers. Do you want to do that one? We've done the October... We've done the June 9th one before. Not the same movie as number one? The June 9th one is, by the way, Star Trek V, The Final Frontier. Got it. That's why we've done it. So the weekend before, June 2nd. Let's do this. Number one at the box office is a big sequel that we've covered on this podcast.

2:31:03Griffin Newman:A great movie.

2:31:04David Sims:In 1989. Mm-hmm. It's a great film, says David. It's lots of fun.

2:31:08Griffin Newman:Lots of fun. It's been out for two weeks. It's made$77 million. It's not Die Hard 2. Nope. I don't like that movie.

2:31:16David Sims:I know. That's why I'm surprised.

2:31:18Griffin Newman:But it's not that.

2:31:19David Sims:I'm surprised at the version of you I created in my mind. It's a huge, huge franchise. It's a huge, huge franchise. Is it a two?

2:31:24Griffin Newman:Three. It's a three. And for a long time it was the last, but they made two cents. Is it the Beverly Hills Cop person? Is that... Do it, guys? Nope.

2:31:35David Sims:We covered it on Mainfeeder Patreon?

2:31:37Griffin Newman:Mainfeeder.

2:31:38David Sims:Mainfeeder. We covered it on Main... And we cover all of them? It's not... We've covered four. Oh, it's... fuck I was gonna guess we have not covered the fifth I was gonna guess it's beyond Thunderdome but now I there's been one since it's made 77 million dollars in two weeks it's a huge hit there's been one since that we haven't covered yeah is that what you're telling me the most recent one we have not covered the fifth is it Ghostbusters 2 no you wouldn't call that a great film it's a third it's an 89 film it's a third come on you're gonna be so mad come on I'm gonna be is it like a is it one of my franchises you love this movie this is your favorite of this franchise oh wow this is favorite of a franchise it's a three and then there was a big gap and we did four but we didn't do five and are they all the same director no the first four

2:32:28Griffin Newman:that's why we've done those four what the fuck you're gonna be so mad at yourself

2:32:35David Sims:is it like based around a character yeah

2:32:39Griffin Newman:fuck wow what is it

2:32:43David Sims:it's not Mad Max it's not like it's the fucking

2:32:48Griffin Newman:oh my god everyone's screaming at us yeah absolutely

2:32:51David Sims:it's a big ass hit

2:32:54Griffin Newman:probably the biggest movie in the oh god it's Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade wow Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade

2:33:03David Sims:Yeah, everyone's right to be angry at me for that one. Especially the clue of, like, director did four, but not the fifth.

2:33:09Griffin Newman:I know, I know, I know. Number two at the box office is new this week. Okay. It is an action film starring a sort of a sports entertainer, I would call him. Is it a wrestler? Yes, and he recently left this mortal coil. Is it Suburban Commander? It is not that. But I have the right actor, I believe. I believe that is a Hulk Hogan film. Is it no holds barred? It is no more. That was his real debut Star of the Evil. Correct. No ring, no ref, no rules. Obviously, his debut is what? Rocky III.

2:33:40David Sims:But this is a wrestling movie in which he is the lead fighting Zeus Tiny Lister.

2:33:45Griffin Newman:Yeah, I've never seen it. I have no idea if it's good, but I'm going to guess. We just let people do whatever they wanted then, didn't we? We sure did. We used to be a proper country. Wow, we used to be a proper country. But what I like is back then. We used to let Hulk Hogan do whatever he wanted. We were going to be like, oh, Hulk Hogan, you want to be in a movie? Your movie will cost like$8 million. It's not going to be a big movie. Sure. It'll be a cheap little action movie, basically.

2:34:06David Sims:Yeah. And you'll be playing a wrestler. You know what's a version of this that I like? That the first Nobody made$30 million. Totally. And they were like, make a Nobody too. Who gives a shit? It doesn't need to make$100 million. That's my favorite thing. It's cheap and you want to show up. Yeah. We can keep these things play on Netflix.

2:34:22Griffin Newman:Right. There needs to be different scales of success. A thousand percent. Number three is a comedy. it's not in my opinion we've covered it I think we've talked we've not covered it but we've talked about this one before we've discussed it I think it's not good I've not seen it in a franchise no but it's it's a star duo that made four films together this is their third

2:34:42David Sims:so it's a Pryor Wilder

2:34:43Griffin Newman:it is Richard Pryor

2:34:45David Sims:Ben's beloved see no evil hear no evil it is

2:34:48Griffin Newman:yeah

2:34:49David Sims:a movie that I'm talking about aging

2:34:51Griffin Newman:where Gene Wilder is deaf and Richard Pryor is blind blind correct yes and they witness they witness a murder

2:34:58David Sims:and they each only can attest a part of it. Is it the other way around, Ben? I think it's the other way around. Didn't they not really get along, but they knew that they were great together? But they didn't not get along. They were just like, yeah, we had like no personal relationship. Yeah, yeah. Gene Wilder was like, one time we went and saw a movie together and we didn't have, we like went out to dinner and didn't have anything to talk about, but we had good chemistry. What was the fourth?

2:35:19Griffin Newman:Obviously, Silver Street can stir crazy.

2:35:20David Sims:What's the fourth? The fourth one is another you, which is the true disaster. Fryer's already really sick. while Donvich was fired off of it halfway through filming. Oh, Jesus.

2:35:30Griffin Newman:Yeah. Anyway, so that's number three. Number four is a film I brought up and I was yelling at Nia about recently, like 10 minutes ago. It was nominated for Best Picture. It's one of the most beautiful movies ever made about the great sport of baseball. I can't wait to watch it again. It does rule. Number five is also new this week. Okay. And it is not a movie I'm that familiar with. It's an, you know, action movie with a couple members of, I guess they were called the Brat Pack. An action movie.

2:36:02David Sims:It's a Brat Pack action movie? That feels so scary. It's not Wisdom, is it? No.

2:36:08Griffin Newman:It is not? I don't even know what that is. Yeah. Good poll. Wisdom is, oh, Estimaz and Hoar. Very nice. Okay, so it's got two Brat Packers in it? Yeah. It's not trying to be good, is it? Nope. Action. I don't know if you're going to know this movie. I've never heard of it. Can you give me the Packers? Kiefer Sutherland. Okay. And Lou Diamond Phillips. Oh. And the tagline feels like they could have maybe worked harder. This one is, the boys are back in town. It's not Young Guns 2. It is not. Because that one's got like eight Brad Packs. I know.

2:36:39David Sims:That is a movie about boys being back though.

2:36:41Griffin Newman:We are back in town. The Young Guns.

2:36:43David Sims:Yeah. I don't know if I know what this is.

2:36:45Griffin Newman:This film is called Renegades.

2:36:46David Sims:Yeah. Can't tell you that I know anything else about it. I'm sure like 10 people text us and be like, I can't believe you guys haven't seen Renegades.

2:36:52Griffin Newman:Jack Shoulder directed it, who's the guy who made that movie, The Hidden, which is a movie I like a lot. Yeah. And he made Nightmare 2, the gay one. Yeah. So he's got cool movies, but I've never heard of this one really. But it looks like they've got guns and the boys are back in town.

2:37:08David Sims:Can I make my joke? Please. It was written by Jack Knee, it was produced by Jack Toast.

2:37:13Griffin Newman:Bit Boy. Bit Boy. Number six at the box office is The Eternal Cult, legend, hit, Roadhouse. Sure. number seven is the film that I've always described as what if Clint Eastwood played Gene Parmesan pink Cadillac where he's like I'm an investigator I'm a master of disguise and his disguise is like I'm a yellow hat guy it's on a hat no one'll see me coming pretty fun movie I'm holding a finger under my nose like it's a mustache number nine is uh Ben what'd you think of this movie canine that's Belushi and the dog I've never seen it it's Jim Belushi yeah obviously I feel like didn't it come up with the Patrick Willems yes he did his because there's also K9 versus well no

2:37:57David Sims:it's the Turner and Hooch Turner and Hooch and K9 are the same year the two dog cop partner buddy movies wait guys sorry I just realized I looked at my notes but I just wanted to make sure I showed you this picture of Nwanda and Wilson oh my goodness it's from the fashion why didn't they make out they could have made out they're so cool I'm doing that oh my god I'm doing that video podcast thing oh terrible what thing where you're like look at this thing on my phone oh sure and I can't describe that well oh right right no one can see it I love you're like you're in front of me I can see it that's the mystery though text it to me put it on your whatever I'll put it on blankies yeah put it on those number nine

2:38:35Griffin Newman:of the box office is the Pet Sematary movie which is a good movie the first one yes not the one that was released recently which is in Clark Mary Lambert yeah fun movie my favorite Stephen King book and then number ten Ben we hit movies guys Major League? Nice. And number 11, just to shout it out, is Rain Man. He's still fucking hanging out six months later.

2:38:57David Sims:Yeah, I just like that you were like, ugh, I did the video podcast thing that no one can see. I just then remembered Ben is wearing a full schoolboy uniform.

2:39:05Griffin Newman:Sure is.

2:39:06David Sims:The amount of energy Ben puts into visual bits.

2:39:08Griffin Newman:I was like, Ben, you look so fancy. And he was like, yeah, Dead Poets Society. Are you meeting with your account master? No, it is. Because I sit across from Ben when I record with you guys. And you're just always smiling. and you're always just like present and you're something to be seen. He's our beautiful boy. Maybe if you do video, it's just Ben. Just Ben. I like this. We did it. That's good. That's good. I wouldn't infuriate people at all. I love that Ben puts this much work. Ben mostly like doing work, you know, like checking things on the edit.

2:39:34David Sims:Into bits for other people to describe on my... Exactly. That was so good.

2:39:39Griffin Newman:It's theater of the minds. It's theater of the minds.

2:39:41David Sims:I have to go pick up my daughter. Okay. Enjoy. I have to say humble brag again. Enjoy your lunch. Nia, thank you for being here. Thank you so much for having me. This was so fun. I'm going to say everyone should watch The Bone Temple and Hedda, both of which have now been on VOD. Probably. Yeah. For months. Yeah. But really, really loved Hedda. Thank you. And excited to see Bone Temple,

2:40:03Griffin Newman:which we will have seen and talked about in our Patreon at this point. Thrilled to watch Bone Temple. And then whatever you do next will be so exciting. Hedda really rocked. I watched. I didn't get to see it in the theater. I watched the screener, but I had such a great time. It really affected me where I realized I need to start playing more games with people in my life. No, you should. No, no, no. Don't be headless. What? No, that was my takeaway. She's not well. Listen, everyone has their own takeaway at the end of the film. It's an ambiguous ending. No, thank you guys. That means a lot. You're not getting answers.

2:40:34You're asking questions. I think I emailed you guys. I was like, I'm so proud of these two movies. I'm so happy.

2:40:39Griffin Newman:I'm very happy you're making movies that you can, when we see you, be like, I'm excited. It's very exciting.

2:40:45David Sims:in the arc of the time since we've done it like you were saying at the beginning every time you see me I've been like like smoking a cigarette you vent all the stuff that we can't say on mic and then we're like yeah

2:41:00David Sims:always a pleasure to have you on mic thank you guys and thank you all for listening please remember to rate, review, and subscribe tune in next week for Green Card is next

2:41:10Griffin Newman:is that right? I think you're right but I'm just double checking you finally got to make Green Card because of the success of this yeah it was we'll get into it but it was a thing where schedule is set to wait or whatever but yes yeah next is the wonderful in my opinion film Green Card

2:41:23David Sims:starring unproblematic fave it was the 90s yeah and as always carpe diem yeah rip

2:41:43David Sims:Oh, oh, oh. I got to do my Robin vocal warm-ups. Oh, oh, oh, oh. Okay, terrible impression coming.

2:41:53Griffin Newman:Blank Check with Griffin and David is hosted by Griffin Newman and David Sims. Our executive producer is me, Ben Hosley. Our creative producer is Marie Barty Salinas. and our associate producer is A.J. McKeon. This show is mixed and edited by A.J. McKeon and Alan Smithy. Research by J.J. Birch. Our theme song is by Lane Montgomery in The Great American Novel, with additional music by Alex Mitchell. Artwork by Joe Bowen, Olly Moss, and Pat Reynolds. Our production assistant is Minnick. Special thanks to David Cho, Jordan Fish, and Nate Patterson for their production help. Head over to blankcheckpod.com for links to all of the real nerdy shit.

2:42:32Griffin Newman:Join our Patreon, Blank Check Special Features, for exclusive franchise commentaries and bonus episodes. Follow us on social at Blank Check Pod. Subscribe to our weekly newsletter, Checkbook, on Substack. This podcast is created and produced by Blank Check Productions.