Ella McCay with Richard Lawson

26:36We will guest. Other friends of the Blank Check universe will guest. We're very excited about it. Thank you, and thank you for... This all began to peek behind the curtain. Right after I lost my job, I was at Barney Frank's house crying, and I texted you guys. Is Barney Frank still alive? It's a good shoulder to cry on. I don't know. He's from my home state. Was he your congressman? No, he was. He's more southeastern Massachusetts. So actually, where I spent summers. He's the same age as James L. Brooks, 85 years old. But I texted you. I think it was like a couple days after I got the news. Kind of like not serious.

27:09Like, hey, you want to do a spinoff podcast? And then, lo and behold, all these months later, you guys took it seriously. And that is the honor of a lifetime. So thank you. It's been many months to figure out how it happened. And we should mention it's going to be a co-production with Vulture. Yes, because Allison is at Vulture. And so we're going to use some of their fine resources. And it's going to be great. And actually tremendous support. You got both of Jesse David Fox's arms. You get to use them. That's right. Not the rest of them. Yeah. And Allison and I will solely be talking about stand-up sets we saw the night before.

27:39And Rebecca Altert will break through the wall like the Kool-Aid man, but only once. Yes. You won't know when. Right. She will have a segment each episode reviewing the popcorn bucket for that specific Best Picture candidate. And I'll just be like, Allison, name a Jamie Lee Curtis movie that starts between the letters R and Z. The LMK popcorn bucket has not been selling super well, which is the shoe turn sideways. It's hard to fuck. That's the problem. It's actually Woody Harrelson's confused head. Less hard to fuck, but maybe you don't want to. Very excited for Critical Darlings. Yes, thank you.

28:13Critical Darlings, I think we have January 1st as a premiere date. You guys will be dark that week, so we figured why not. We'll say that that's the other fun thing is we obviously take this, like, the gap between kind of Christmas and New Year's off every year from our main feed. And that's when we're going to drop the first one for you to kick off, 2026, and then it will come out every Thursday after that. That's right. And yeah, for now, we're running through March, but who knows what the future holds? Who knows? Yeah.

28:41David? Yes. This episode is brought to you by MUBI, the global film company that champions great cinema. It champions it. Unlike the others. No, they... To cry it. Barbarian it. From iconic directors to emerging auteurs, there is always something new to discover. With MUBI, each and every film is hand-selected so you can explore the best of cinema. You can log on to MUBI and check out all the movies they got. You know, Art House, you know, cool indie stuff, foreign stuff. Okay, this is awesome. There's a movie star movie now streaming on Mubi in the U.S. covered on blank check soon. Well, I think that's the headline.

29:19Yeah, Die My Love. Yes. You're going to need to watch it if you want to keep up with the show. True. True. I mean, I guess, you know, do what you want. You don't have to, but we recommend viewing the film. Please view the film. Die My Love, Lynn Ramsey's film. Great film. It came out last year. It was a canon that came out last fall in 2025. It's a visceral and uncompromising portrait of a woman engulfed by love and madness starring Jennifer Lawrence, who was nominated for Golden Globe, Robert Pattinson. It's kind of mostly those two. They're very heavy on the two of them. Yeah, some top shelf.

29:51Nolte? I was going to say, some seasoning of Nolte and Spacek. Like dry age, let me tell you. Oh. Yeah, you've got them in there. But yeah, it's a lot. It's a big showstopper movie for J-Law. And R-Pats. Yeah. Even our Pat's nose. He's playing sack and fiddle. Sure, but then there's a lemon pepper dry rub of Nick Nolte. I love lemon pepper, guys. I love Nick Nolte. I love Nick Nolte, too. Look, it's Lynn Ramsey making her eagerly awaited filmmaking return. Obviously, that's why we're covering her on the pod because we've been waiting for her to make another movie. And it was on the shortlist for cinematography, the 90th Academy Awards.

30:34I didn't even know that. That's awesome. It's a passionate, complicated, destructive love story between two major stars in Lawrence and Pattinson who'd never been together on screen before. I know. I guess that's not that surprising, but they are quite a pair. The bat and the cat. K-A-T-N-I-S-S. Oh, Katniss. Yeah. The bat and the steek. Mystique, that is. Oh, sure. Yeah, it's an awesome movie. The steek and the freak. Is that something he's played a lot of freaks? Sure. Sure. Spoiler alert for the episode, but I was a big fan of the film. I know you were, Ben. Have you seen it yet? I haven't seen it yet.

31:07Whoa! I think you're going to like it a lot. It's also based on a book by Ariana Harwick. Mm-hmm. Anyway. There's so much good stuff to watch on Mubi. There's also awesome other good stuff. Look, if you're not a member, this is a perfect month to sign up in order to keep up with the show. To stream the best of cinema, you can try Mubi free for 30 days at Mubi.com slash blank check. That's M-U-B-I dot com slash blank check for a whole month of great cinema for free.

31:42David. Yes. I am so excited about this episode sponsor. Yes. Me too. Might truly be the most excited I've ever had for anything to sponsor this podcast. We're excited to like sponsors that tell you how to like help your finances. Hey, easy. Okay. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Easy. Today's episode of Blank Check is brought to you by Nirvana, the band, the show, the movie. Nirvana, the band, the show, the movie. Marie's here too because everyone's so excited. I love this movie. I mean, I love this band, this show, this movie. Yes. Important correction. This film is finally coming to theaters. February 13th is the start of the theatrical rollout.

32:21Yeah. From our friends at Neon. Neon's bringing it out. We have been waiting impatiently for other people to see this film. We saw this at South by Southwest. One of the best screenings of my life. Truly. Truly. It was an unbelievable experience. Ben, you were there. Had a blast. And I had never seen or engaged with this show previously. Me neither. Most of the group had not. Don't really need it. It was like seven of us. You don't need the context to enjoy. Absolutely. It's a big thing. I think you need to know what Toronto is. Because you knew nothing other than us hyping you up for you. Well, this was the problem.

32:54And we should say, it's a city in Canada. Yes. I went in you guys had just been like it's the best thing ever and not just you other people I can't believe how good and I was like this is so overhyped and here's the great thing about David I'm walking in like I felt mad about it where it's just like they've primed it too much for me I like that you acknowledge this because sometimes if we tell you something's good I see you go like put your fists up well I'm just like relax because I need to I can't go in with too much hype because that's not good for my critical experience of a movie and then I thought it was better than the hype this is the thing This movie is truly a miracle.

33:28I think it is the funniest movie of the last 10 years easily. And listeners of the show know I am often bemoaning the state of the theatrical comedy. And this is a movie that provides the thing I've been longing for, which is you go see this with a crowd. It is just electric every five seconds, rolling laughter. And the movie just builds and builds and builds. This is a movie for Matt Johnson. Yes. Director Blackberry, one of my favorite movies the last couple of years. Him and Jay McCarroll started as a web series, became a TV series, and now is a movie. But you don't need to know any of that.

34:02This works as a clean entry point. It's a movie about two friends who are obsessed with their band playing at one venue. They want to play at the Rivoli. That's all you need to know about these guys. Before the lights went down at the South by Southwest screening, I believe you turned to me and said, what do I need to know? And I said, all you need to know is they want to play the Rivoli. They got to play the Rivoli. I've been to Toronto many times. Have you been to the Rivoli? Never. I've stayed on Queen West, though, and I've certainly walked by the way of Rivoli many times. And I've always been like, oh, yeah, the Rivoli.

34:30There it is. It's not Carnegie Hall. No, it's a fucking bar. And you never see these guys. What do you mean? It's the most important music venue in Canada. You never see these guys practice their music. But all you know is that every episode starts with, here's the plan. Here's how we play the Rivoli, right? We got to play the Rivoli. And this movie starts from there and explodes in unbelievable ways. I think this movie is truly like a magic trick. Beyond just how funny it is and for how much it's caked in the deep lore of this Nirvana, the band, the show universe that's existed for 15 years. You can just go in knowing nothing and be blown away.

35:03And for a movie that seems kind of slapdash and roughly made from the start, it starts to pull off genuine like cinematic magic tricks where you cannot believe how this thing was made. What was my Letterboxd review, Griff? Did you see it? No, please tell me. LOL. How did they make that? Truly. That was how I thought. How did this get made? I was also just like, how did they make this? I don't get it. You don't understand how they're getting away with it legally. You don't understand how it was cleared for release. And there is a melding of scripted and non-scripted, them engaging with real people on the street where the line between what is planned and what is not boggles your brain.

35:44It was my favorite thing I saw all of 2025. And now it's coming out in 2026. Now, listen, I do have to do some talking points. Nervana the Band the Show the Movie is in theaters February 13th. Get tickets now. We must say this. Nirvana the Band the Show the Movie. They're very clear that we have to say the title of this thing a few times. Nirvana the Band the Show the Movie. Why? It's a really simple, easy title. Nirvana the Band the Show the Movie really is a kind of like going cold expecting something fun. I don't think you need too much more than that. I know it sounds unwieldy or whatever, but just like I think you're going to have a pretty good time.

36:21If you trust our opinion at all, take this recommendation. Yes. Don't look it up. Go in. And I really, really doubt there is any chance you will be disappointed. In theaters, February 13th. Get your tickets now. Get your tickets. Nirvana, the man, the show, the movie.

36:46It is funny that there were a couple things. It's like waiting on your wedding day. No, that's ironic. Sorry, carry him. Yeah, it's funny. Like TBS. When we've covered Director in the past and they have a new release, we circle back and put it on main feed. Yeah. There were a couple things on paper, if you were looking at the schedule a year ago, where we're like, huh, some of our past subjects might be back in the Oscar race. Such as? House of Dynamite. Yeah. Ella McKay. House of Dynamite. We have Avatar Fire and Ash. Is this thing on? and no other choice still to come. But certainly none of those movies feel like significant frontrunners.

37:28No. No. No, certainly not. But they're all films that were certainly positioned and have been released in this corridor for that purpose. They are very much fall to Christmas movies, yes. The original announcement was that Disney Fox was putting this in September. It was like, that feels like the obvious place to burn this off if you don't have a lot of faith in this. Everyone was saying, like, oh, it's messy. And you're like, sure, it's James Earl Brooks. Like, yeah. And then they pushed it to the week before Christmas. And people were like, are they feeling good about it? Like, that's not an obvious place to bury a movie.

38:02No. Played zero festivals. Not even like AFI or anything. No. Yeah. We will not know at the time of this recording how it's performing at the box office. But I'm expecting it. I gotta guess. Yeah. Well, is it going to be 40 million, 60 million? and we're just not sure yet. Friday? Oh, I'm not sure. Yeah, yeah. China is going to be enormous. Bigger than Zootopia 2. I said with zero disrespect, I could see this being the first movie to open to negative million dollars. I don't think it's going to make a lot of money, and I don't think it's going to get good reviews. And a lot of that is, you can just see Disney being like, we don't even know how to fucking market this type of movie anymore.

38:38Because all the people who used to are retired or dead. It's also, the audience for this kind of movie, seemingly, you know, is not really there in theaters anymore. And I like this movie. I think it's an interesting little thing. But I'd be the first to admit that it's kind of hard to explain what it is. And it's messy in that James L. Brooks way of it's got a lot of ideas and a lot of characters. And I mean, the poster has nine people above the title, some of whom are famous. I mean, it's so funny to this point. First poster is Jamie Lee Curtis grabbing her shoulders. the tagline you mentioned, and that's clearly Disney being like, people like Jamie Lee Curtis now, right?

39:19Right. Let's really sell this as a Jamie Lee Curtis movie. Right, she's been winning awards, right. Right, we have Freakier Friday coming out the same year. Right, right. And then they transition. And she's playing a brassy matriarchal figure. Right. An ant, actually, but yeah. Right, in a supporting part. Yeah. Then they transition to the infamous Pose poster on just a stark white background, trying to position it as like, this is James L. Brooks trying to make another star-making movie, a vehicle for an actress leveling up As it did for Taya, you know? Exactly. This final poster has been that same image, but now with like 27 floating heads around her.

39:55They put some square floating heads. We need every recognizable face who's in this movie. They got six heads next to Ella. So they got Kumail, Jamie Lee Curtis, Woody Harrelson in the most normal regular wig ever. Two of the most normal wigs. Albert Brooks, our friend Io Debiri who is Debiri Debiri sorry who is almost a spoiler to put on the poster just the way the movie treats that character and then Jack Loudon so they're not putting Spike Fern on the poster despite him being I suppose a big character because he's not very well known I would argue he is the second lead I mean he sort of is but I mean whatever surprisingly big part for someone who doesn't show up for a while or know how to act and I'll also say from having your brother text me about him I will say from having I'm sure he did.

40:43Yes. Read the script. Yeah. The part feels bigger in the final movie than it did in reading it because it feels like the stuff they cut out was in the other plot lines versus every single second of the brother plot line is in there. And also, I remember it being a little more dispersed. And it does feel like the middle 30 minutes of the movie are all her and the brother. and then this big denouement with Ayo, who this movie was cast long ago enough that she basically agrees to do this like right after season one of The Bear. Yeah, almost like James Earl Brown. And now they're marketing it with her face on the poster and Ben was like, did they cut most of that character out?

41:20I'm like, no, it was always this one scene. That's always a big scene. Small part, yeah. Not including Rebecca Hall, but I guess she's only got the one scene. Yes. In my memory, there was a little more that was also cut out. Not including Kavner. You don't want Kavner up there? crazy about her. Not including Troy Garrity? Excuse me, I'm nuts about her. I think Garrity's not in the final cut. Well, I'm seeing him on Wikipedia. I'm nuts. An older lady saying I'm nuts about her about like a younger woman. That is the most like Brooke. I think that might be the Brooksiest thing in the movie and it happens within the first two minutes.

41:52It was just like being put in a warm bath for me. I was like, yes, please. This is an ultimate they don't make them like this anymore movie. And possibly they never did except for this one guy. The argument can then be is that a good thing or not? But you watch it and you're like, this is an experience that does not exist in our movie ecosystem anymore. Certainly not coming from a major studio. And watching this in a theater feels uncanny because you're so used to every version of a movie like this being punted straight to streaming. You know, I saw this film at Disney's headquarters. Which was a weird experience.

42:30Yeah, you were there, right? Yeah. Which is they have a fairly new building down in downtown Manhattan with a gorgeous theater that is huge. And also for a studio screening room, enormous. Like you go to like Universal's screening room is pretty small. Even their old one was small. Yeah. Warner's screening room is small. This is like state-of-the-art tech setup. Did you see Mickey? I didn't see Mickey. I didn't see Minnie. You know what was sad is all the Song of the South characters were in a lot. Yeah, they were there. And that was kind of unfortunate. I've heard Pluto still largely work from home.

43:02Yeah, he's a... He comes in like once a month. Yeah, he's been fighting the RTO policy with the union. It's a whole thing. And so, yeah, it was one of those like, there's 200 seats, like take your pick. And I was like, right here, baby. And I watched it with several other members of our Critics Award organization, which is why we were seeing it. And chuckled heartily and heard no other chuckles around me. Well, here's the thing about it. You were at the same screening. I was at the same screening. I didn't, I wanted more for it. But the thing is, and yes, you're right, David, it probably will get some negative reviews.

43:36And if I were reviewing it, my review ultimately would have been negative. But I don't, I'm really dreading the snark about it. I am too. Because it does not merit that. What was that, you know, kind of reaction? It's like, it's an 85-year-old guy trying to harken back to a wonderful, as Ben pointed out, wonderful era of movies when a lot of movies like this existed. And I find nothing wrong with that effort. I agree. The execution, maybe, you know, desires. But like, I don't know. I just I can't I really am dreading that people being like, can you believe this scene? No, it's it's a problem with a lot of our discourse.

44:09And I do think when this movie likely flops, it's going to inspire a lot of really annoying headlines from just sort of industry handicappers. We're not even talking about the artistry behind it or lack thereof, you know, either one, the defensible position, but are more talking about like it makes no business sense to make this movie. and it's like, well, this movie got made because he has this fucking control in The Simpsons. But also, we should not be discouraging studios from trying to make movies like this. It is not a big risk on their part financially. Sure isn't. No, especially now, you know.

44:43Yeah. You know, and so I don't want to snark, but that doesn't mean that there's not a lot to make fun of. That's the thing. But it's a loving mockery. Some odd stuff. Yeah. Do you remember me texting you when I got the script? No. I was I was filming Alex Ross Perry's pavements and there was like many hours in between setups or I wasn't needed or whatever. And I'm like sitting on the set, which is just like an office right on a couch. And the script came through and I was like, oh, I'm going to read this immediately. And I texted the blank check group text like halfway through it. And I'm like, well, first I texted and I was like, holy shit, because the movie had reading new James hadn't been announced yet.

45:20And I was like, there's a new Brooks movie they're casting and I have the script on my phone right now. And then I read it and halfway through, I'm like, guys, some of this is great. And it very much read, while not identical to the finished movie, like the movie, where I'm like, there'll be 15 pages where I'm like, what the fuck is Brooks on about? And then there's like 10 pages where you're like, oh, shit, there's an idea here. And the dialogue's crackling. And this character's fun. And I said to the group when I finished it, my big question is, this reads like the best movie he's made in 20 years.

45:54Sure. But it's messy and not perfect. It feels very kind of vomit drafty and even still faint praise better than the last three or last two, I guess. And my question is, is this how like broadcast news read early before he massaged it and got it perfect? or did how do you know half work on paper and then he totally lost it in the process? And you hear about how long and drawn out every Brooks production is, how he reworks things, how he rewrites things, reshoots things. And you're just like, this clearly isn't a final document, but which direction does this go in? Which is why, like, after I saw it, I was, like, texting Bobby Finger and Dan Daddario and someone else about it.

46:43And I was like, they were like, did you like it? And I was like, I don't know. But I was like, honestly, I would watch the version that's 45 minutes longer. Even if it's also a mess, at least I'm seeing the complete mess, you know, and I'm just endlessly curious about what was cut and what it would have added or taken away. Because, yeah, you're right. Like, maybe, I don't know, like, he can turn his vomit into something really remarkable. But yeah, I think this movie also has like four or five major concerns. And Sims, I think you have a very good take on what the larger project is here of what he's trying to say.

47:20And I will tee you up for this in a second. But it felt like in the script I read, it was like there are five kind of major plot lines or themes in the movie, which all got an equal amount of attention. Right. And it's sort of like this movie is flittering all around. Scandal, dad returning, brother problems. Yes. New job. Marriage. Yeah. Okay. Right. Right. I would say like, here's what I would say. Girl, that's nuts about it. I would say like three parts about the job, right? Like public relations scandal, relationship marriage, and like her actual beliefs and aspiration and trying to fight a sort of like stuck in the mud sense.

47:57And then there are the two main family plot lines, which are the dad and the brother. And it felt like those five things all kind of got equal weight. And it was still messy, but it felt a little more cohesive to me because I was just like, I understand all of these are feeding into the same larger idea. And this movie in the final edit puts the thumb on certain things that maybe they thought were more marketable, specifically the kind of more romantic relationship things. That does make it feel like, what is he trying to say here? David, your take. Well, so my take was that this is a masterpiece and five stars and there's no issues with it.

48:36No, that was not my take. my take was if Spanglish is his sort of like white guilt movie about like I can't believe right that's clearly him processing like the situation I'm this rich guy I have this complicated dynamic with these people I employ and they're real people too and I don't want to you know like minimize that and then you can just feel himself like hyperventilating like working himself up like I mean it's just ridiculous right the chef movie Spanglish yes my favorite chef movie this is the other unique thing about James L. Brooks is that like he's not a guy who starts from like I got a great log line for a comedy.

49:10Right, no, it's like a big, what am I thinking about? What's troubling me, right? There's a theme that's been like sticking with me lately. This is his boomer guilt movie of just like looking at the generations, you know, beyond him, his kids, grandkids or whatever, and being like, we've left you such a mess. Like, you're not prepared for anything because we've like modeled nothing well. Like both of her father figures in this movie are disasters. Woody's a real villain. Albert isn't so much a villain. It's this kind of well-meaning, you know, politician who is kind of fucking her over, like, or whatever, you know, right?

49:46And like... It's the exact thing she doesn't want to become, even though she considers him a friend and a mentor. Right. And it's like, you have to save the world. You have to put all this back together. He's setting it right at the 2008, where it's like the time of promise, but also the time when everything fell apart and the recession happened and everything. And he's just like, and, you know, you're supposed to have functioning relationships. We never, you know, we never helped you out with figuring out how to do that. And, you know, we basically have put it all on your plate, Ella McKay. Because it's like this parody of a, I don't know how she does it person where it's like, yes, not only does she have the bad dad and she lost her mom and she's now she's in this marriage that's not totally working and she's trying to fix it, but she's literally becoming the governor and having everything put on her plate.

50:30And she's like, I'm ready for this. I want, I, you know. I've been waiting my whole life for this. I want to fix things. Like, I'm eager. I'm like, you know, I'm an idealistic person. And it's like, no, the world's, you know. How do you maintain principle and idealism when there's no more infrastructure for it? That's a big part of it. And I also think, you know, he pointedly sets this movie in 2008. And I think there are a couple reasons why he does that. But I also, it felt reading it, like there was a little bit more of a direct mirroring between her father's scandal and her own. and this sort of like James L.

51:04Brooks working through Me Too and cancellation culture, whatever the fuck you want to talk it, in a way that I thought was more interesting than most people who have tried to tackle it because he's not talking about what's actually happening. He's talking about like a culture and like a media that has become more obsessed with narrativizing thing and judging things and like putting people under a microscope and this notion of like how terrible things can be downplayed and how innocuous things can become a sticking point. And if you are in politics, and I don't think he's saying, like, we should just ignore sex scandals or whatever, but he is saying, if you are a politician trying to work in a system where your job is that precarious, does it behoove you to just get cynical and just do things that will keep you in office, or do you still try to maintain your idealism?

51:57And she's ultimately felled by the, that she doesn't succeed in politics because like we're talking about this it's sounding like an interesting movie like this thing is 100 an interesting movie but you're like there are real fucking ideas in this and like tough questions with no answers that at times he dramatizes very well um and other times you're sort of like what what are you when was the last time you went to a grocery store you know well it's like watching um i think i've said this even on this podcast but like in the movie W.E. that Madonna directed where Abby Cornish goes, she's staying with Oscar Isaac in Brooklyn after leaving her husband.

52:34And she walks under the Marcy J. stop, you know, the overpass and looks at like there's a Hasidic person and a man selling like bird cages out of a store and a tear drips down her eye. And it's like, oh, Madonna has not talked to a real person in 15 years. Like, it's a little bit of that with Brooks, but it's not as, it's not as like snooty or, I don't know. I don't mind it in his case. It's like your grandpa being like, oh, what's, you know, like kind of using old colloquialism. No, and how do you know it feels like a movie made by someone who hasn't talked to a person in a decade? This is so much more...

53:09Yes. Recognizable. A thing that, and Brooks has talked about it in the couple features I've seen written about this, you know, him for this movie. And we must have talked about this back in the day, but his father abandoned the family before he was born. He has like an older sister, but his father found out, James L. Brooks' father found out his mother was pregnant and literally like blew town. And he never knew his father after he was about 12. Like he occasionally would see the dad, but he had no real life. And like Brooks has said, the Harrelson figure, very inspired by that. Like this sort of bad dad you can't quite shake.

53:46and also what has James L. Brooks done? Been married a bunch of times. Had kids with different women, gone through divorces, you know, clearly not totally lived up to whatever promise he might have wanted. Just remarried last year. And I'm sure they're getting it on and he's a stallion in the sack to this day. No, I have no idea. And when he comes he goes, da-do-do-do-do-do-do-do. After he comes he goes, da-do-do-do-do-do-do. Yeah, yeah. He has him going immediately to bed. God, that's the... to God James O. Brooks is not listening to this podcast. Seeing that logo on the big screen in surround set was thrilling.

54:22I yelled like Thanos had appeared. It was truly incredible. There is little that is more Pavlovian than that feeling of like me starting to love filmed entertainment. I mean, I know this wasn't filmed, but like, you know what I mean? No. Part. Yes. Popular media. Yeah. So yeah, he's still thinking about himself. all these years later, which is interesting. Here's an interesting idea that I think is a little lost in the soup of this movie. And it's sort of like when you're talking about what are the animating ideas behind these films at the different points in his career, right? And like James L.

54:58Brooks, when he makes soup, when his movies are soup, it's like there's lobster, there's fucking... Well, I was going to say, this is more of a chowder. Oh, that's... It's a chowder. Is it New England? Okay, so I have thoughts about this because it was filmed in Providence. I kept thinking it was like Michigan. Yeah, the Amtrak station is right across from the statehouse. So I've seen that statehouse many a time. But otherwise, it's set in a neighborhood of Providence that's not where my parents live, so I didn't recognize it. But what I do recognize as someone who grew up in Boston and has spent his entire life living in the northeastern United States, there's no way you can fake that that's like Illinois.

55:32I really don't think. It's just topographically, the architecture... I mean, it was a chilly place. It's a chilly place. It's certainly... I mean, it's obviously not Santa Fe, but I just think that like he's kind of dining out on the assumption that a state that looks like this is probably blue, but I don't have to say it is. That's true, that's true. You know, so it's that kind of like broadly like, is this Harrisburg, Pennsylvania? Could be, but that's maybe too much of a battleground state. So in a way, I'm like, just set it in Rhode Island then because that is a solidly blue state with a lot of - No, but then everyone would have to be like, you owe 50 grand to the mom or whatever.

56:05Well, that's true. There's a mafia problem. The fact that this movie was shot in the last five years and they didn't force him to film it in like Belgrade is even anomalous. Hello, Ella, I am your new press secretary. But you're just so used to these movies being like, this is a story about a specific American city and we clearly shot it outside of the United States of America. Yeah, no, I mean, it definitely has. I love a movie that like is in a place that is like the Gracie logo, like recognizable to me. I have a Pavlovian response to that kind of home that like she lives in or, you know, those kind of streets and that particular statehouse.

56:46And I don't know, I kind of in a way like the anonymity of it, even if it forces Julie Kavner to say, and she's the governor of the state she was born in, you know, it's like, okay, that's not how you would phrase that. But James L. Brooks is very interested in career women, right? It is like the majority of his movies are driven by how does a woman have a career? Sure. And I still don't know. I don't know. You know what? That's most of the new podcast is me asking Alice than that. How do you still have a career? But how do you know feels like what it was supposed to be was well female athletes even if you get to the top of your field that's a really fucking low ceiling and being a professional athlete is an occupation where there is an early retirement age and if you are the best female softball player in the world and you're forced to retire at 36 what is the rest of your life because you don't have MLB millions to bank on.

57:39Is this thing on? Yes, there we go. We will talk about similar themes here in a couple weeks. And I would argue that a volleyball career is even less lucrative than the softball. Although Olympics, there are Olympics. Softball is at the Olympics too, but I don't think as many people watch it. But if someone is focused on their career and now they don't have much to take away from it and they're trying to figure out their love life, maybe at a time delay from other people who are having more of a work-life balance, feels like that's what that movie was supposed to be about. And then the fucking 2008 financial crash happens.

58:11And James L. Brooks is like, actually, I want to talk about all of this. And that movie is sort of neither fish nor foul because he can't decide what the main thing he cares about is. Well, it's, you know, it's my theory about the newsroom and a number of other things that have come since then, which is like rich guys who don't have to do anything else project wise. But they've been at dinner parties at their house and they're talking about an article they half read in The Atlantic or The New Yorker. and they feel that they really have like talked about it well to their friends at the dinner party.

58:42And they're like, but wait, no one else in America heard that. Maybe I should make a TV show about what I thought about the last 18 months. You know, this has a slight tinge, or how do you know, rather, had that in spades. This only has a little bit of it. And like, I still have an overall deal at Sony. I have a bungalow. They would like for me to make something to justify the money they give me to maintain an office here. Exactly. Like stars still want to make my movies. You know, I got three A-listers. And I've got things to say about this thing from a few, you know, yeah. They'll let him get into this with a rougher draft.

59:11In this movie, it felt like they made him prove himself a little bit more while also perhaps giving him more latitude than most people would get, less latitude than he usually gets. But I think one of the big animating ideas here, David, is sort of what you're talking about, which is like, if you are so defined by the failure of your father and you try to live your life in the shadow of that, in opposition to that. is there a kind of cruel irony of you ending up in a situation closer to him than you ever imagined you would. Right. Yeah. And that's sort of here I am. I my marriage is failing. I'm about to deal with a scandal.

59:48Yes. Right. The circumstances are very different. The behavior is very different. Her father is defined by being someone who absolutely acted in the wrong and has taken no responsibility for it for decades. And she is the opposite. Why is this even a scandal? And I may be taking too much responsibility for it in a way that is not politically savvy. But am I also fucking up my marriage at the same time in the way my father did? Is that a good thing or a bad thing? She also ended up with a guy that's kind of like her father and that he's extremely selfish. Kind of a charming-ish selfish loser who's like clearly getting by on being kind of a cutie.

1:00:24And to the Rhode Island of it all, I kind of think that Loudon and Becky and Baker are supposed to be a little mob-coded. Like they have a pizza restaurant, but like why cast those people? I was about to say Loudon, who is an actor I really like, is not the right casting for that. I think he... He's not bad at playing like a weaselly guy in this. But I'll say this, and it's not me blaming the performance. No. I think this is, in a way, the most disastrous part of the movie. It's because that feels like the victim of the... It needs a lot more runway. It feels like it was the worst hit victim of the cuts.

1:00:58Yes. Yes, absolutely. But I also think his performance... You make it sound like this is like a state budget. Yes. Well, I'm speaking in the argot of the film. Needy children, by which I mean Jack Loudon, are being cut to the bone. Look, James L. Brooks gets exactly what he wants out of his actors. I'm not throwing Loudon under the bus here, even if he is obviously a man who exists at the absolute center of my dartboard just for having the exact domestic situation I dream of. Griffin's jealous of Jack Loudon because he's married with a child with Saoirse Ronan. You know who's a big Jack Loudon fan is Bobby Finger.

1:01:32So he has a Saoirse Ronan dartboard. We need to team up. Harpy! Two podcasters arrested in a bizarre murder plot that actually, if you think about it, made no sense because we've taken the bullseye and more in here. Yeah. No, there is some broad comedy where Bobby and I are trying to figure out how to make them think that they're breaking up of their own beliefs. Right, yeah, yeah. But switch with us. And that Jack Lauderdale should switch orientations. Unfortunately, Bobby's plot line would involve some sort of clockwork orange conversion therapy. Reprogramming. We don't know. Maybe Jack likes everybody.

1:02:05We don't. It's true. Come on the podcast. Come on. Address me. I'm predisposed to be bone deep jealous of this man's existence, right? Anytime he shows up in a movie, I'm like, him? Fuck. Right. I don't actually blame him for this performance. I think James L. Brooks really misdirected him. I think it's really unbalanced and the limiting of the material hurts it a lot. But it's also like I don't think the movie ever makes a compelling case for why she was with him in the first place. And reading the script, I felt a little bit of tension in, is this guy hiding something? This guy is so good at charming people in a way that feels genuine.

1:02:48He's a little too likable. Where what's that covering up? And he's kind of guileless. And it takes a while to be like, no, he's strategic about what he's doing here. And this movie, he's so slippery from the moment you like see him kissing fucking Jamie Lee Curtis's hand as a teenager. Yeah, no, exactly. And I also think that I don't know if you guys watch The Diplomat, but like... I do watch The Diplomat. I'm just remembering the teenage stuff. Sorry. We should actually talk about that. But just real quick, Bradley Woodford plays Allison Janney's husband, so he's the first husband. And, you know, it's a man doing that role.

1:03:25I guess he's the Doug Emhoff. But I also like Selena Myers' husband in Veeb, or her ex-husband in Veeb. I think that this role suffers because I'm like, I've seen this before recently. You know, some version of it. I could sort of buy that she ended up with this guy because she's such a driven person. She's got her career that he just like is like, yeah, he's nice. And like, that solves that part of my life to have this kind of nice guy all sewn up and I don't have to worry about it. But that needs more. I don't think they sell him being nice enough. I think the movie needs to rest on the idea that she is a person of such clear, unbeatable morals that her not being able to see him for what he is.

1:04:06And I understand people get blinded by certain things and whatever, but I'm just like, he feels like a Scooby-Doo villain from the beginning. I also think that in a way, not to like try to make a movie that doesn't exist, but like, I do think in a way that if you wanted to complicate Ella's character a little further, you could be like, there was some cynicism in her getting married so young because she was like, I can't achieve my political ambitions as a single woman. I think that's a better way to frame it. Yeah. If it was like... No one quite says anything like that. And their flashbacks seemingly cut out, I believe, that establish more of the bedrock of what they're early like.

1:04:42You know, this was like childhood sweethearts, basically. And we're going to take over the world together and, you know... Totally. And like what soured along the way, and instead you get like one scene of him being too slick as a teenager. Yeah. And then you're like, this guy sucks. In a crazy wig too, David. It's not just Woody who wears a crazy wig. The wigs. the jackets but this is also a problem with the film has to rest on the idea that she made a stupid choice that is now jeopardizing her ability to actually affect change in the world that was driven by I can't let my marriage fall apart right that she was trying to keep him happy that it's not a marriage of convenience that it's not a you know your role you play the part of the good upstanding guy that she's like I need to reorganize my whole life to make sure that I'm giving him enough attention.

1:05:32Which is that a commentary on how women in the workplace are treated, or is that in some ways a dim view of a woman in the workplace? You know, I don't know. We're in the fucking JLB soup now. We're in the chowder where you're like, things in this movie that feel dramatically sloppy, if you actually start pulling apart what's he trying to say here, you're like, this is an interesting thing to talk about. Right, well, I just got a piece of potato. He still has like powers of observation, even if he can't totally stick the landing on all of them. like some of them he sticks the landing but not the takeoff you know it's like such an odd mix I just want to shout out Jack Loudon on Slow Horses do you watch do you watch Slow Horses I have not seen it since the first season so in Slow Horses Gary Oldman plays you know the farting spy and like the whole well he plays like the head of this like shitty division of MI5 like the British spy you know division right and the whole thing is that he's so bedraggled and he's farting all the time and drinking and he's this garbage man.

1:06:28But as you watch the show, you realize, oh, right, it's a little bit of an act. He knows this means no one takes him seriously. He's smart. It's an anti-smiley. He uses it to kind of get people off. And then Jack Loudon plays this spy who ends up in the shitty division because he's the opposite. He can't help but enter a situation like waving a gun around being like, I am a spy! I can save the day! I can save the day! And he's so good at that. I admittedly have not seen a ton of his work. Oh, really? You haven't seen... Well... My Policeman, isn't that him? No. No, that was Harry Styles. He used to be a musician.

1:07:09That wasn't called 76, but was called 87 or... If you're talking about the film 76, which is a film... No, that's not what you're talking about. What was that? I know, is it 74? Yes, that sounds right. That's not him. Jesus. 71. Is that him? We got there. No, it's Jack O 'Connell. You're talking about the sort of IRA drama movie? Yeah, that was Jack O 'Connell. Jack Loudoun emerged. I mean, he's in little parts in British movies and stuff. Small part in Dunkirk. He's in Dunkirk. I would say more than a small part. In Dunkirk, it was kind of like, who's that fucking hottie driving a plane? Like, alongside, you know, Tom Hardy.

1:07:50Tom Hardy, okay. Right? And then he parachutes. Excuse me, he is in 71. He's just not the lead. Oh, you're right. Well, I mean, he's not even in the, like, he's the 17th lead. Jack O 'Connell's the lead of that movie. Who's that fucking hottie driving a plane is what I said at the end of Train Dream. That's nice. Nice to say that about Joel. Yeah, he's hot. He's in Fighting With My Family, which you have seen. Oh, yeah. And he's good. I like that movie a lot. And he's, I think, quite good in it. Playing her brother, who's like, you know, the original aspiring wrestler. Sure. I saw that. But like, I never saw Denial.

1:08:26I didn't see the War and Peace miniseries. No, I never saw that. I didn't see Mary Queen of Scots. He's fine in that. That's where he met Saoirse, obviously. He's a... If you can get it. Right. He's somewhat villainous in that. I didn't see Benediction. Embarrassingly. Oh, Benediction is incredible. Benediction is the thing where you're like, okay, so this guy's like a... I know that's a blind spot. And it has this like extra sadness or sweetness to it because it was Terrence Davies. Right. re-engaging with gay stuff for the first time in a long time and then he died but he finally did it and like also it's like oh Terrence Davis made a movie about Siegfried Sassoon who was a British World War I veteran who was a poet and you're like oh okay so is this like is this like an elegaic sad movie and you're like no no no it is about gay guys talking shit like that is most of the movie it's the cattiest movie of that year they are all so mean but he's really good in that he plays Sauron in the Rings of Power only in one episode he's the original Sauron because the whole thing with Sauron is that he keeps turning into new hotties to distract people.

1:09:25So he's young Sauron who fucks? Well, I mean, not that the old Sauron, the new Sauron is, they're all young and hot, but yes, you know, Sauron keeps, you know, being like, hi, I'm just a, got it. I'm a cool guy. Is he on Instagram? He is on Instagram. Wait, oh, Fran Hoffner highly recommends Jack Lauderdale. I was talking about Sauron, but okay. He's sort of your type. Wow, Sauron really likes the Netflix deal. Yeah. Well, I guess that tracks. But yeah, a lot of the big ones I've missed, and I know he's always on these lists of like, these are the exciting young actors. So horses is the thing, right, that he's consistently been doing.

1:09:58He's always, I feel like, one of these shortlisted guys for like the big parts that are coming up. I do feel like he's good at earnestness, and he's bad casting in this for that reason. Yeah. Where him trying to play a little too slick comes off as like transparently untrustworthy. And I don't want to sound limiting, but I do think it's hard, and I think that Emma Mackey suffers from this too. It can be hard to do comedy while also trying to juggle an accent. An accent. Yep. So here's my question. Who is Emma Mackey? Who is this? Sex Education. Right, which I've never seen that one. Me neither.

1:10:36Yeah, so basically... So that's Asa Butterfield? Margot Robbie got a Temu clone made and... That's always been the thing. How is there this other actress that looks that much like her? Sex Education is her main project. and that has run for like fucking five or six seasons? I think it might have sort of petered. You know how these hit Netflix shows? It ran for like five, I think. Four seasons. Four, okay. But these Netflix shows, they kind of peter out. I also feel like there's a lot of cast turnaround on that show, but she basically stayed as one of the consistent elements for a while. She's, you know, all the seasons along with Asa Butterfield and Amy Lou Wood.

1:11:13Uh-huh. Who's that, and you know, Gillian Anderson and Doctor Who's in there and, you know, lots of people. And they're learning sex education. And Emma Mackey is also in Babylon with Marco Robbie? Or is Emma Mackey also? No, it's Samara Weaving, who's the other one they say has the same face as them. So she's in Babylon as fake Robbie and Emma Mackey is in Barbie as fake Barbie. Right, okay. Right, I never saw the Emily Bronte movie. Is that Deirdre O 'Connell? It was Francis O 'Connor. That's what I mean, I'm sorry. I wish it was Dirtro Connell. That'd be great. I never saw... She's in Death on the Nile, apparently.

1:11:55I did see that, but I'm going to be honest with you guys. That one kind of passed off me. I think she's actually kind of a big part in Death on the Nile. She might be. She's like the young lover. Yeah. I remember this part where one of the actresses says something about the Nile and champagne. I'll say this. She has very few credits. You actually look at it, and it's like her first movie is 2020. 20. She's in 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 movies total. Ella McKay will be the age. She's 29 years old. She's playing younger than Ella McKay, and I would say it reads. This was shot two years ago. I mean, this goes back to my original question of who are they casting as the lead?

1:12:33This is built to be a Deborah Winger, Holly Hunter type thing, but this movie has the three timelines. Well over 50 % of the movie is her in her mid-30s. Yeah. Yeah, I think. And then there's a little bit of teen and a little bit of early 20s, and they cut most of the early 20s stuff out. There was more college stuff in the script I read. Well, that's good because at present, there is already way too much flashback stuff because it just looks so crazy. I think all the flashback stuff should go, except for the stuff at the beginning. The opening is all you need. Which is really profound and really got me.

1:13:07But in the script I read, that stuff was circled back to many times. There was more sort of going back and forth. it's part of what I think is lost I will say even though I don't think it worked dramatically part of what the movie doesn't communicate well is that the idea of the Woody Harrelson scandal is that it became a news story which makes you get the briefest sense of that that like he's about to go face the media that he and like that's what's happening in the first scene that like the family needs to prepare for on top of the that he's done something it wasn't Monica Gate right but it was the kind of thing that became a weird news story that captured people for a couple weeks of like, oh, this high-level person was doing all this bad shit.

1:13:51And so it's not like he's still remembered by name necessarily, but like the level of exposure and attention in her childhood or, you know, certainly starting in her teen years has like absolutely affected the way this person behaves in every area in opposition to it and that she's aware of the fact that this legacy is attached to her, that people know her as the daughter of that guy. as she is now fighting to try to, like, fix our broken culture. And I think that doesn't totally come across in the movie. Like, her dad sucks, and then she grows up. Well, because the dad stuff feels like we're taking brief detours to a different movie that's about that.

1:14:30Right. Where Woody Harrelson is a much bigger part, and Jamie Lee Curtis's relationship to everybody becomes much more apparent than it is in this version of the movie. Dad stuff also feels way cut down. It was clearer that it was a sort of, like, making the amends... I need you to grant me this because I'm trying to forgive myself and my life. I also think that there would be, if you flesh that dad character, that dynamic out more, that backstory out more, it would explain some of Ella's goody two-shoesism. Yes, yes. That throwaway line about how she vehemently opposed legalizing marijuana. Yes.

1:15:06That was one of the planks of her platform when she ran. It's like, wait, what? No, that totally tracked me because of the 2008-ness. It's like, that's how much the world has changed, that that was considered so radical back then. A progressive Democrat would have run on that. No one fucking supported legalizing weed in 2008. Like it was truly seen as like, you're going to sound like a whacked out hippie or whatever. God, do you remember? I watch it all the time when the former governor of New Mexico, who's a Republican who became a libertarian, fucking forget his name, ran for like the libertarian presidential nomination, I think in 2016.

1:15:43and he's at like the Libertarian Party. Gary Johnson, is that your name? Yeah, Gary Johnson. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he's at the Libertarian Party's like presidential debate, right? With like the other wackos. Which is just people milling around or screaming. And someone's like, the next question is, do you support, you know, people being licensed to drive, right? And like, it goes from like, it's like, no, like, what next? A license to make toast? You know, as like they go through. And then Gary Johnson's like, I mean, I think maybe you should have to perform some sort of proficiency to learn. And everyone's like, boom!

1:16:17There's no winning with that crowd. I watch it all. The guy's just clearly like, what am I doing here? What am I supposed to say here? He gets interrupted by a giant bullet. Sorry. It's just so funny. I think you're right, though, that like what you don't get in this movie is that she has so wildly overcorrected for her father. Which is why no one can stand her. Exactly. It's become rigid. And it's not just experiential, but it's also like her trying to fight the optics of how she's going to be perceived every time she enters a room where it's like, do you know that she's the daughter of that guy who 20 years ago?

1:16:54And not just that, but that she's young. She's this prodigy. She needs to overcompensate for being a young prodigy and all that. It shaped her moral worldview. And then on top of that, it shaped a defensiveness in how she lives in the world to try to be able to push her moral worldview through without ever bending. Albert Brooks is too old to play her dad, right? When I... But is there a world, right, where it makes sense to have Brooks be the dad and Harrelson be the governor? I read the script. They announced the cast. They announced the cast, right. I went, holy shit, Albert Brooks is going to crush it as the dad.

1:17:27Right. And Harrelson makes a lot of sense. Makes a ton of sense is a kind of like folksy governor people like. And people like him, but also there's an element of like, has he leaned a little too much into showmen and he's just kind of like a corporate politician now and whatever. And I don't think Brooks is bad in this movie. I think Brooks is actually quite good. Yeah, and he nails all his scenes, but he's a little bit, I was kind of like, why did people vote for him? He just kind of seems boring. Like he's fine. Here's another thing that I liked about the idea of Brooks playing this part. Not just that obviously like, it's an inverse of his broadcast news character, but that it's almost like a souring of that guy in that like, I think the Jack Loudon character is an unsuccessful attempt to make another William Hurt, right?

1:18:11Where you're like, ultimately this guy is a problem. Yeah. And yet it's really hard to resist his charms. Or a little bit Jeff Daniels in terms of a near-end kind of. Exactly. No, I think truly. Yeah. And watching it, I was like, who could have pulled this off? He's obviously never going to make this career move at this point in his arc but like if it's Glenn Powell you know there you go Glenn Powell is so good at playing kind of a shit bag and being like God but I can't fucking hate this guy which is what you need him to be that I don't think the kind of guy who would genuinely think that even though his wife is lieutenant governor will now governor that he's actually the real celebrity yes and without making any larger statement about this you put Woody Harrelson in this type of role and as you've said many times on this podcast David you're a slut for Woody Woody Rose I love him he's so much fun almost any time he shows up in anything.

1:19:00And yet, introduced in this movie, you're like, of course this guy's fucking everyone. There's no tension to that, right? Like the whole Woody Harrelson thing, it's like, come on, what are you going to do? You mad at me? I like fucking things. There's no shock and disgrace there. But with Brooks... With Brooks, it would be this kind of warping of a broadcast news type guy who in ascending to career power... Yeah. ...takes... Abused it. Yeah, yeah. Out of vindictiveness of women used to never pay attention to me, right? I think part of the problem with a lot of this in general is that like, I think the movie is afraid of becoming too dark and cynical, even though it is set in the most dark and cynical, like, well, the beginning of a really dark and cynical era, but also just like politics in general since forever have been that way.

1:19:46The movie is basically about that battle between cynicism and optimism. But I don't think we see nearly enough of the true cynicism. You have the Julie Kavner line early on where she's like, this story is set in 2008. Remember when people still used to get along? It's like, well, what are you talking about? I mean, like, it's a glib line. Yeah, it's overly reductive, but it also feels like part of why he chose to set it then. I think he once again wanted to talk about the fallout of the financial collapse. Yeah. And what that did to the citizens of this country and the politicians who were not thinking about them.

1:20:20I think he also is making some comment on Clinton where he's like, oh, she had all these policy ideas, but like she wasn't likable enough. And it's like, sure, that's maybe true. But also that's not why she lost that primary. Also an Obama optimism of, is this guy going to come in and actually fix everything? And then you're like, he starts to play the game really hard and make some terrible decisions. Yeah. It's this fantasy of what she does of like rather than play the game, she cuts the deal of like, okay, I'll go away. if you, and we don't really know what this is, but like, do everything I want to legislatively happen.

1:20:59A thing that was also very spelled out in the script and has long dialogue scenes where she's like going over what the points are and everyone's being like, oh my God, why are you so annoyed about this? And there's some of that in the movie. There is, but it gets a little yada, yada, yada. Imagine if this movie was called Wonket. I mean, that's true. But like, I found the scenes where she's like, you know, excitedly trying to explain policy to whoever, like, the idea is cute of, like, everyone being like, you know, oh, Ella, yes, yes, yes. I think it needs more of that, of the idea of, like, what is she actually?

1:21:32No, it's so boring. Like, it's just... This is Brooke shit. Where he's like, I want, like, five minutes of policy discussion that Fox was clearly like, cut, cut, cut, cut, cut. I just think it's boring. Like, it's just like... You know, like, it's what the characters don't like. She's haranguing you where you're like, yeah, I agree. It's good to help moms or it's good to have dentists or whatever, you know, like. It's also what's tricky about this part is it's going for the Holly Hunter thing of like, God, she is so annoying. Megatype. Why can't she fucking get out of her own way with this shit and yet you're still on her side?

1:22:08I liked the gag of, you know, the legislative meeting where it's like the sun has set and everyone's asleep and she's like, and then we're gonna do this. You know, like, that worked for me. Him passing the note saying mention me and then please don't mention me. That was funny. That's the best bit in the whole movie. There's stuff like that that's good, but I think casting a 27-year-old for this movie is fundamentally a mistake. Okay, who should he have cast? I was doing this mental exercise, right? Yeah. And I always think about the generation of actresses who basically didn't get to have a movie like this.

1:22:39Like Emma Stone or someone. Who seemed TaylorMade for it. Although Emma Stone got more comedies than some. Sure. But I mean, thinking about the people who truly didn't get anything close to this, I was like, like Alison Brie, Gillian Jacobs. Gillian Jacobs sprang to mine you. Friend of the podcast, Tatiana Maslany. People who are both heavyweight dramatic actors and have incredible comedic touches. But so much of their best work had to be on TV. Can do screwball with depth, which is what you really want. You need someone who's got a double-barreled shotgun of tonal control. And I think that McKay is a good actor, but I think that she seems overwhelmed by the juggling that this thing requires.

1:23:16Wow, but Ella McKay is overwhelmed. Yeah, true. Have you seen the day she's having? But also, why is this movie casting based on like, well, she'll be more believable as a teenager than if we hire someone in her late 30s. Is that why they did that? I truly think it has to be. I truly, that was, I'll just say, that was the explanation I got when they cast her. Right, right, right. And just cast a younger actor to play the younger person. Truly, yes. Whatever. And it was like, well, the brother has to be three different actors at different ages or whatever. but they want one person to play her in all the scenes which I guess makes more sense if there's more of those other scenes but obviously they should have limited those scenes at the script level.

1:23:53Look, clearly you didn't like Emma Mackey. I thought she was okay. I was kind of quite charmed by her. Why do I keep saying McKay? Because the movie's called Ella McKay. Right. Okay. I thought she was all right. I just think the movie is putting an unfair kind of task on her shoulders. It's a lot. It's big. I mean, look, it crushed a titan like Taya Leone. Yeah. Granted, a very different kind of part. But no, but it's big, verbose. Like, you have to hold a lot of ideas that are sort of ineffable, you know, hard to hold at all. Stylized dialogue. And be charming. And be this. And be that. Stylized dialogue.

1:24:29Although I think the Brooksisms are kind of at a minimum in this. They are. There's moments. It's a little more grounded. Yeah. But I think a lot of it is just the age. because this movie isn't framed as the crazy story of how a child became the governor of a state, right? Like, it's supposed to be like, she's pretty young for a governor, but not like an aberration. To give people the plot of Ella McKay, maybe they didn't go see it. Why not? What the hell? She's the lieutenant governor of her state behind an experienced governor who she used to be the chief of staff to. Clearly, she was a prodigy chief of staff, given her age.

1:25:08and because he gets a secretary job in the U.S. cabinet, he resigns. Why he has to resign day of is... That's ludicrous. No one would do that, but that's required for the movie. In real life, he would wait to be confirmed before he fucking resigned. And so she gets the governorship thrust upon her, very surprisingly. And an idea I like is, here's a person whose platforms are too radical and is not good at, like, comforting people. If she had to run for public election, she would never get it. It's a thing that Albert Brooks says. She's not someone who's good at campaigning. She's not good at PR.

1:25:46She's not good at being on TV. She's not radical, but she's a technocrat who has all this kind of good government stuff she wants to do that's boring, and she doesn't know how to horse trade for it and all that. And obviously, they're of a different affiliation, but it's like if you have an AOC or a Mamdani who doesn't have the PR skills. Sure, right. Right. Like, the only way in which they're ever actually getting to get into a seat of power is through some weird fluke moment like this. And he says, like, congratulations, they're going to run you out of town. But for at least a little while, you are the governor.

1:26:22Right. And what are you going to do with that power? Now, that's the main plot. Also, she's married. Her marriage is sort of on the rocks. And she was having lunch dates with her husband in the state office building. and it turns out that's a misuse of government funds technically so she's worried she's going to get in trouble for that because a reporter found out about it and also her dad Woody Harrelson who had a scandal in the family when she was young was a prominent doctor who was had a they don't get too into it but was basically caught crossing sexual lines with a bunch of his patients he's a serial philanderer right he has decided to reemerge To ask forgiveness.

1:27:07Yeah. Okay. Jamie Lee Curtis plays her brassy aunt. Who her mother dies shortly after the scandal of cancer. Jamie Lee Curtis, the brother, the sister of her shitty dad, became her den mother and her voice of reason. And yeah. Kamail Nanjiani plays her bodyguard, you know, security detail guy who she likes. And Spike Fern, an actor I don't really know. No. Has very few credits. He's a young British man. plays, I'm British, another British why is it so many Brits doing weird accents? plays her brother who seems to be like sort of agoraphobic possibly other things he's divergent in some way but has become like a computer whiz quote unquote who's become maybe a millionaire because he's sort of a sports gambling expert he just sits inside all day on his computer and he also somehow managed to bag Io, fumble Io that all happened about a year ago and he's been ruminating on it ever since.

1:28:08And that's the Brooksie. While she seemingly waits in her apartment like a board waiting to be activated. That's the Brooksie's writing is when he's trying to explain how he sort of asked Io to be. He asked her to be his girlfriend and then they all freaked out. And because it's all this like circuitous, you know, sort of. It's like a 10 page scene of like dueling monologues that is such a kind of classic Brooksie high wire act. And I truly was like in real time, like it felt like watching a boxing match where I was like, okay, that one landed, that one whiffed, you know? And it's coming so fast and furious.

1:28:39And I'm like, is he pulling this off or not? It's hard to tell. It's really hard to tell. That's the thing about it. Sometimes when his dialogue is whizzing, you're like, okay, you're like the Maxell guy. And you're like, you have to sort it out later whether it actually made sense. The idea is that the family history, in the same way that it kind of like turned her into a Terminator, broke him. That him being at a younger age and not having a sense of self at the time that he has to watch his mother die and his father become a public issue, all this sort of stuff. They say that they shipped him off to military school because his dad didn't know how to deal with him.

1:29:11Ella kind of raised him, but then she kickstarts her career that he is just kind of crumbled as a guy. Which is also, you know, in terms of Brooks wanting to, you know, make manifest things that were spoken about at a dinner party. He's like, I heard that young men are in trouble. Yeah. A little bit. There's a little bit of that. They live on computers now. A little bit. And I think a little bit of the, like, curse of the gifted child thing. of like, was the pressure put upon this kid who was so sharp at such a young age that now he lives in terror of not living up to what was projected for him.

1:29:41You know, the flashbacks we see him, you know, as a kid struggling with all the scandal. Yes. So it's a lot. It's a lot for the soup. You didn't mention that Becky and Baker plays a richly bejeweled pizzeria doyen. They make an additional$300 ,000 a year by watering down the tomato sauce. That's their terrible secret. That's Jimmy Lee Curtis's, right, like big beef with them. It's like that documentary collective about the Romanian hospital that watered down the antiseptic. It's the same exact thing. Becky Ann Baker is kind of on fire in this. I mean, it's a brief performance, but yeah. She falls into the pizza oven.

1:30:15I've maybe seen in a movie all year. Like, it's like, you're like suddenly cutting into like this, like what feels like Jane Austen's mafia. Is this like a parody of mob movies done in the low station? Say hello to my little friend. It had a whiff of Ben's other favorite movie, I Love You Did It. It does. but like oh this is like a fucking like pizza pizzeria goomba hey I'm Italian you can tell because I have an apron on we didn't get enough time dealing with the pizza business again right maybe this movie should be a Frederick Weissman-esque seven hour odyssey Emma Roberts Hayden Christensen it's called Little Italy it's not about the little Italy you think it's about the little Italy in Toronto rival family pizza restaurants And how is that movie?

1:31:01Oh, boy. That's what I'll say about that one. Because, you know, when I see Hayden Christensen, I think Italian. Well, it's also insane because he's like 38 and he's playing like a 21-year-old. Yeah. Is the rivalry between the two pizzerias like, hey, we here, we make thin crust, and that dirty family, their crust is a little thinner than ours. Yeah, and then they, so Hayden and Emma Walder, they have to do pod races. Of course. you know, when to fall in love over pizza. The only way to really settle it. Yeah. Yeah. It's quite a movie. Yes. I think the way sounds great. It's streaming. Check it out.

1:31:41I think it's very much about pizza. The nature of Woody Harrelson's performance and the way his character is deployed in this movie, and especially because, as we said, the first 10 minutes of the movie are really front loading. This is the defining event of this family that will have the ripple effects on all of them forever. Right. And that is a thing that was like the first trailer did not convey at all. I remember when friends would text me after the trailer and be like, what the fuck is this movie about? And I'm like, they're hiding the ball. It is entirely about sex scandals. Everything in this movie spins out of how do people react to sex scandals?

1:32:14And how does it affect, like, the civic understanding of, like, public figures? Right, but also our personal relationships and all these sorts of things. So if you're, like, going to see this movie being like, It's like, I don't know how she does it. The first 10 minutes, I think, to a general audience, any audience, are going to be like, the fuck is this movie? When is it? What? Like, when is it? How old or young is she supposed to be playing? What year is it? And then every time he shows up in the movie after that, it almost feels like he's like Paul Bettany in A Beautiful Mind. Like, it feels magical.

1:32:49Like, he's a ghost of a memory haunting her. He leaves the family and then gets killed by Anton Chigurh. Right. So he's a ghost. Yeah. he we're all making this movie sound bad when in fact it's a delightful romp but um I think we are alternating between making it sound better than it is and worse than it is when it exists in a fascinating middle it's another element of the movie that I could almost stand to lose because those scenes don't really you know link in to the main plot that much outside of the larger like again she's sort of just been failed by the role models in her life. This almost feels like...

1:33:28But like, she's like, I'm in the middle of a scandal. And Jean-Luc Carlson is like, just one second. Let me yank you in here for a second. And Woody Harrelson's like, please, baby, I'm sorry. And she's like, I'll see you later. He's like, okay. And then she leaves again, you know. Because he's like, he's appearing in this movie in a like Jean-Carlo Esposito in Brave New World. And let's salute our president, Red Hulk, right? But where you're like, this is late reshoots. And because it's stuck into scenes that already existed, she has to like turn a corner, talk to Woody Harrelson, who interacts with no other primary characters.

1:33:57And then she returns to her previous scene. The very ending of this movie is like her resolving her political career. And then he just happens to be standing seven steps down the block. And it's like, so can we resolve that plot thread? I mean, and she is like, no. Yeah, which I kind of like that like it's not a movie about her learning. Like, okay, you know what? Everyone's flawed and like, maybe you're flawed too. She's like, no, you're bad. Like, don't need you. don't need you in my life and I like that the only thing she wants out of him when he's like please please please like my new wife's a psychiatrist and she says I have to make amends with you or whatever you know and she's like I will talk to you if you promise not to bother your son because you're troubling him and he's like okay and she's like promise okay fine I'll see you later like that is all she really wants from him it's like don't bug what's his name Casey because he needs to learn how to walk to a bakery that Io lives above.

1:34:54And you've, like, fucked him up so badly. Right. I'm trying to help him. He's so beyond, right. Right. Undo the damage. And then once again, once in a while, she gets in the car and chats with Kumail for five minutes. And I'm like, this is interesting. I guess this is going somewhere. But I assume many audience members are like, what the fuck was that? You know, what's that now? Right. And Kumail also is, like, not an inappropriate age for how old Ella McKay the character is supposed to be. Right, but he's a little older than Emma. You're right. Which I do think is like an issue. And you're like...

1:35:28He is 20 years old. He's 20 years older than her. And he's supposed to like... 18 decades. Reading it, I assume they were a battle. Yeah, Camille's, you know, looks younger than he is. Yeah. She looks older than she is, I guess. Right. But it does, like, start to feel like a weird power imbalance thing in, like, both directions. You know, where I think, like, in theory, there's an interesting tension to this guy who's so thoroughly termed by her, but knows there is a line he cannot cross. Even if he sees like this marriage is bad news and I wish he was with someone who respected her. Right, he's not gonna.

1:36:07Right, I have a professional obligation, but when he's 20 years older than her and she's in the backseat of the car, like, stoned, you're like, is he about to take advantage of her? But also, the bad marriage is not apparent enough. I don't know. I don't know he's just he's kind of a jerk maybe everyone but I feel like the jerk the real jerk turn where all of a sudden it's like oh he's gonna fuck her over and she's gonna like whatever that's like that feels like something got cut yeah because it happened so quickly it doesn't play enough like it's like it should be really portrayed as so fucking evil he has ruined her life he betrays her yes forever out of basically like spite and kind of feeling slighted by her.

1:36:51Because even what he's asking for is preposterous. Well, I think... And it's done in a way where it's kind of like light and just like being like, isn't he silly? He's literally being like, I'm going to be co-mayor with you, or co-governor with you. I'm going to be the Hillary to Bill. That's not a fucking thing. No, that's... It really made me mad. I'm like, fuck this guy. Especially if the backstory of the character isn't like, they met as like poli-sci students together and they hold the same values and she became the candidate. He's the heir to a pizza fortune. What does he care about being governor?

1:37:24Who fucking gives a shit? He's got way more power than any governor. And I think for this character to work, he has to be so guileless that he doesn't know what he's doing, is fucked up, rather than this guy feels like he's making chess moves. He has to either be like, yeah, a calculating, equally politically ambitious guy or a doof. Who is so good at pretending he's a normal doof. Or a badly bumbling doof. I thought that he was stupid, that he tips off the reporter by being stupid, right? And pays off the reporter because he's stupid. And then when he's like, so will you give me more cred and more to do?

1:37:56And she's like, no. And he's like, well, then I'm just going to have to divorce you and say it's your fault. And she's like, okay. He's doing it because he's like, well, I guess I just have to do that now. I guess. But then there's the scene where it implies that, like, Becky and Baker is like Mamma Mia Macbeth. And they're like, well, wait, but that's not necessary because that's a whole different movie. 10 comedy points for Mamma Mia, Macbeth.

1:38:47With Viso Steuer. Now, try it out. It's interesting. I feel like you will hear often filmmakers and screenwriters talk about, you know, where did the idea for this movie come from? And they're like, you know, it's funny. At first, I was trying to write something like this. And then when I got 30 pages in, I went like, oh, this other thing I've discovered is more interesting. And you rewrite the script and you take out the original animating idea. Yeah, that's the crucial part. You take it out. James O. Brooks is the guy where every time he makes a new discovery, he adds it on top of the original thing.

1:39:21And you saying like, could you just drop the Woody Harrelson thing? Right. And it's so clear to him where he's like, well, that was the whole idea. That's where this all started. It's the starting point. I hear you, buddy. He wanted to make a movie about a really good breakfast sandwich and then he discovered Spanish while he was writing it. But I mean, it's the flashbacks thing, which obviously some of them were shed. There's also, it's like, I think James O. Brooks, if you were Kelly Furman Craig and you gave him a screenplay would give you the sort of smart, like, I know how movies were made and I know how movies work and what's successful.

1:39:54The smart notes to help you streamline your script. Same story with Wes Anderson and Cameron Crowe. Yes, the guys he mentored in the 90s. And like, whereas this, you know, if I went up to him and I said like, hey, your movie keeps stopping in its fucking tracks for these flashbacks that like completely kill the momentum, he would be like, no, no, no, but you don't understand. Like, you know, like that's all part of this, you know, idea. have, right? You know, he wouldn't maybe take his own note. But that's kind of what's magic about James Earl Brooks. There's nothing like these movies. What was apparent reading it to me of like, huh, these threads all don't really come together.

1:40:25It's not like by the end you go like, oh, fuck. It was all building up to, you know, this moment of character catharsis or whatever it is. And like, maybe that's a thing he'll find while shooting it. Or he'll find in the edit. And instead it just feels like rather than excising certain elements from it entirely, certain elements have just been minimized so much that you're like, why is this even still in there? I don't want to be ageist, but I feel like a 35-year-old James L. Brooks is like a bit more nimble to be on set and be like, all right, this isn't working. Let's try this. Whereas 80-whatever-year-old James L.

1:41:00Brooks is like, I don't know. I wrote it. Let's just shoot it. Then we'll go home. Which is also maybe the area where, no disrespect to Emma Mackey, you need someone who is going to be so comfortable in being the lead of a movie and has carried a movie of this size on their shoulders before and is tested in like comedy and rom-com and all this sort of stuff where they're also being a little bit of a taste gauge rather than like, what do you want, James? You know? And I understand the, you even see the interviews that the cast has been doing for this movie. And they're like, why did I agree to do it?

1:41:34Because it's James L. Brooks. Of course. To the ends of the earth, people will still be like, well, I'm interested. Jamie Lee Curtis is like, since the 80s. I've been like, when is this guy going to give me a call? And for someone who has been... I bet she said that in a really chill way. I read an interview with Brooks in THR where he... Basically, it's a paragraph, a quote paragraph about each of the 10 stars of the film. And he calls Jamie Lee Curtis one of the best people I've ever met in my life. Has he met like two to three people? Has he met Tay Leoni? I'm simply referencing that apparently Jamie Lee Curtis can be a bit of a tough cookie, guys.

1:42:08I'm not saying she's one of the worst people in the world. James L. Brooks was a magic worker for a time, right? And it's like, if you're an actor, whether you're new or you're a hyper-established legendary movie star, if you hand yourself over to him, good things are going to come from it. And you look at a script and it's just pages and pages of dialogue and dialogue. It's like doing a play, but I'm getting paid way more. It's like, that must be so wonderful. And even when he whiffed and you were like, okay, so they're danger zones. It might not work every time, but it's worth the risk. And we'll have we'll have an interesting time on set trying to find the piece.

1:42:42And if it doesn't get found in the edit, then whatever. We at least got fulfilled on set. Right. I mean, his first four films get like 10 acting nominations and three wins. Yeah, it's pretty impressive. Yeah. I'll do anything. Got most of those, right? Yeah. Absolutely. Well, in terms of endearment, of course, won Best Actress and Best Supporting Actor. And got two additional acting noms. Broadcast News. Three acting noms. Got three acting nominations. Sadly, one zero. I'll Do Anything got 17 acting nominations. Zipo. And this goes to guess got three noms and two wins. Yeah. Pretty good. Yeah.

1:43:19That's quite a track record. Right. And Spanglish was nominated for War Crimes at the A. And two Saturn Awards did. Yes. You know, my old review of Letterboxd is like, if you made this now, you'd go to jail or whatever. It's like a choky review. But the problem with Letterboxd is people just will find reviews. And they'll be like, why did you say this? And I'm like, I don't know. I was just kidding. It's like, you know, it's a silly thing to say. Letterboxd logs are what happen in between sandwiches. You know, it gives a shit. You know what? Spanglish doesn't want you either. That's fine. Yeah.

1:43:55It's okay. It doesn't need to want me. We walked out of the theater. You said I loved it. Doesn't like you either. Yeah. Tell me, Spanglish. We walk out of the theater. You say you loved it. You nailed the pose outside. Nailed it. Standing next to the poster. I loved it. And then you got more sober and you looked at me and you said, I'm really going to have to do some thinking before we record this episode. Yeah. And I went, what way? And you went, I don't know. It's just interesting that I click so much with these late period James L. Brooks movies and I haven't quite figured out what it is that's speaking to me.

1:44:28I'm an out of touch white guy. Is that the conclusion you've come to? I think for this particular... It's like you're zen and white. What a fuck. What a fuck. What if Ben said as means of an explanation as if you guys do it, all my Simpsons money. I'm fucking... I'm one of the producers of the Simpsons. You know that I'm Sam Simon's son, right? You design Martin Prince and we're baked into a contract that will never, ever end. You guys haven't noticed I'm sitting on a golden throne with a cape? Your solid gold house and your rocket car? Chester J. Lampwick. I locked into the local politics of it all because my dad was heavily involved in local politics in New Jersey and in my town.

1:45:11And I just, I really love that aspect of the film. So I don't know, just enjoyed that part of her character being really like wanting to make a change and wanting to do good in a hyper-local way. I connected with that. I also think to go back to him being so interested in telling stories of how does a woman actually maintain a career of consequence, in a society that's not necessarily built to be conducive to that activates your Kiki's Delivery Service thing of like a person out there who really cares about what they care about and want to do something and the whole world's kind of pushing back on them.

1:45:51You do really spark to that kind of underdog, especially when that's driven by like an optimism and a humanism. Right. Right. And I support that. And they push through adversity and they come out on the other end And it doesn't always work out in the exact way or the dream way they would want it, the ideal way. But I kind of like that you're seeing the character find this compromised future for themselves, running their own nonprofit. And it's a little hokey even to see Kavanagh and Kumail working. I don't know, but it's a warm bath ending. It's a warm bath movie. Like at this point, watching this movie in the year 2025 almost feels like you're watching like an SNL digital short parodying this type of movie.

1:46:43It feels more pastiche-y than a real thing. Even what you're talking about of like the idea of casting two familiar faces in a big budget studio dramedy where the comedy isn't set piece driven. And it's like, how can you throw the lines back and forth and how well can you like hold a close up and shit like that? It does. There is a warm bath feeling to this, which is why I think we're all like a little protective of how hard are people going to trash this thing? This sounds corny, but this is the kind of movie. It's the kind of movie that's the kind of movie. Oh, well. A thousand Rylos points.

1:47:19There you go. That it wants you to care about people because they're people. And it wants you to care about its story because it's a story about people. And that is like in such short supply because everyone has to have like an added thing or, I mean, to be honest, like a sort of issue grafted onto them or a power grafted onto them. And this is just like the kind of movie where it's like, well, it's a family. Don't we care about families? And when you see power, you mean like the powers of Superman? No, the power book for the book of Gabriel or whatever. But it's something you said earlier. Kiki's in Dime Square has a delivery.

1:47:52They deliver? That looks great. No, it's Kiki Dunst and Jesse Plemons. deliver their baked goods I saw someone on Twitter the other day when the Spirit Awards nominations were announced and Kirsten Dunst, which is exciting got a nomination for Roofman and I saw one quote that was like I think totally serious being like, I thought she retired and was like, what? Was that a story? No, I mean she took a bit of a break but at this point that was kind of a while ago She was nominated for an Oscar like four years ago She talked about that all the parts she got offered Postpower? Pissed her off. Where it was a lot of suffering wives.

1:48:29Right. And so she didn't make another movie until Civil War because that was the first thing she got that was like, this is different. Yeah. And Roofman is also different. She's so good in Roofman. But I think she's very much like, I'd rather not work than do shit I don't want to do unless you're willing to fucking pay me. Right. Put me in a superhero movie I got kids to pay. Yeah, she's got all that, whatever. Kind of the Michelle Williams vibe. Yeah. Yeah. I think James L. Brooks, when he is in the pocket, his magic is, to your point, Ben, being able to have very, very lovable characters do deeply, deeply unlikable things and having kind of contemptible characters win you over at times.

1:49:10And in that way, he can like capture the messiness of like, people are complicated, you know? And when he gets that right, it really feels so wise and well-observed and that he can handle those tonal shifts You know, I mean, like broadcast news is the peak of this for me. The scene where Albert Brooks goes from the kind of charming version of a ducky monologue to actually being evil. And yet the movie isn't framing him as like, well, obviously this guy should go to jail, you know. And I feel like this movie is a little more cut and dry in terms of who the bad guys are and who the good guys are.

1:49:48Yeah. And I was kind of trying to develop this theory of like you watch terms, you watch broadcast news and you're like, Terms, obviously, like what you can you can sell that on like, well, Aurora is a really larger than life character. But I don't know. You watch that movie now and you're like, no, it's a movie that's just about a family and about a mother and a daughter who have these whatever broadcast news is just about the people who work in broadcast news. And then it gets a little bit then like I'll do anything, whatever. But then it's good to guess it gets more character driven, like high kind of concept character driven.

1:50:19And I think that's where as much as I like that movie, I think everything post struggles to kind of regain that it's just a movie about blank. Totally. Totally. Yes. And this is trying to return us to it's about it's a movie about people in local politics. It's the closest he's gotten back to what he's really good at in such a long time. and my excitement for this movie was like really being held in moderation of just like, A, I'm just so happy he's back. B, having read it, there are elements of this that excite me. But I'm just like, if this thing has moments, I will be happy. I've talked about in other episodes, but I like gave, how do you know, a rewatch in the last year to be like, now that we don't get this kind of movie, will I be warmer to it?

1:51:08And there's the odd, there's the occasional defender. It is repellent, I think. I come around to so many of the late period Crowe movies that I'd struggle with. And how do you know, just fucking clings off the backboard and it makes it break out in hives. And when people were like, it's got a couple performances, or some lines are good, or this scene is good, or whatever. The one scene where he's filming Katherine Hahn in the hospital. No, I'm saying about Ella McKay. I started getting so excited where I was like, if any percentage of this is in a good pitch. I will be thrilled. And like some of it is.

1:51:45Yes, I did not hate it by any means. I wanted more for it, but didn't expect more from it, if that makes any sense. I just like, I think I'm, I mean, I'm leaning more towards Ben's side of things where it's like, this is just like a nice kind of movie. I wish that it existed more and sure it has flaws. But like, again, I'm dreading the snark about it because come on, like. And also like Disney is dumping it so hard that now, like, you know, a week before its wide release, at the time we're recording this, the, like, Simpsons is marketing this. And that doesn't feel like Disney strategic synergy.

1:52:20That feels like James L. Brooks three months ago was like... Please clap. Yeah, truly. It feels like... It's the email you send your friends saying, can you come to my show? Right. He's papering the house now. He's like, I'll pay for the... Any support? So can I use the one thing I do control? and now Marge and Lisa are standing outside the theater being like, it made me feel good. You know? We need sensible comedies. She is a bit of a Lisa, right? Totally. She's more than a bit of a Lisa. Which, like, that's a great analog for what this character is in the best case scenario. Right? Where you're like, even when she's being strident or annoying, there is something so human to her in her vulnerability.

1:53:04you know in her trying to figure out how to manage being a person in the world and I don't think like the movie completely fails on that front but it doesn't find the magic of I'm nuts about her well there's nothing peppery about her like there is Holly Hunter or Debra Winger or little cup of tea I mean that's a cup of straight pepper not even pepper in water just pepper to the brim god bless her this one was coming out next. Although her political career was more successful than Ellis. She became Secretary of State. Madam Secretary. Yeah. That is so true. She did. This one's coming out next weekend, right?

1:53:45Next Friday. The 17th? No, the 12th. When does this episode air? Yes. This episode airs on the 14th. What? I think it was... Okay. Okay. Sure. So it's coming out two weeks before Avatar? One week before Avatar. Got it. So, you know, coming out this weekend at the box offices, Five Nights at Freddy's 2, which seems like it's just going to stroll to like$50 million. A friend told me a funny thing about that. What's that? Well, he texted me. He said, isn't it interesting that there are about 20 negative reviews out for it that are on, you know, Universal-owned Rotten Tomatoes, and yet they haven't posted a score yet for the Universal film?

1:54:24Hmm. Yeah. They didn't do the, like, the thing where the number's like, what's it gonna be? What's it gonna be? And then it's like 12. It's weird. I'm seeing here it's the first movie to be 100 % Freddy? We've been given a score of Shelby Oaks. Oh, God. What if they just create a different like, oh, it's not a tomato. It's a Hutcherson. So Five Nights with Freddy's, Zootopia and Wicked, I guess, are all hanging around. There's nothing else in the box office mixed until Avatar, right? Like there's no other big player swinging in. Am I right that Avatar and... Marty Supreme are the same weekend.

1:55:07No, you're wrong. Avatar is the 19th along with, of course... Oh, no. Oh, no. Yeah, no. Yeah, no. Along with, well... Is this thing on? But that's a limited release. Marty is getting, like, very limited 19th, but Marty is launching on Christmas. The white is Christmas and that's also Anaconda and SpongeBob. Indeed. And The Housemaid, I think, is also coming up the Avatar weekend. That's being projected to make a lot of money. That thing's crushing in pre-sales. Really? Yeah. The book is like huge. Is that all it is? It's just counter-programming. And this is the kind of stuff that people want to see Sidney Sweeney and not dour movies about abused boxers.

1:55:43Yeah. I do find it fascinating. I mean, it speaks to the we all live in different realities thing now. We're like, I'm someone who's fucking on the prowl for movie shit and trying to stay tapped into everything. And there is not a single iota of marketing for the housemaid that has hit me. I would agree with you. I'm not seeing much. The trailers, months in theaters, I'm not seeing shit online. And like, they're clearly selling it successfully to the people it's made for. I guess so. What were you going to say, Richard? I was just going to say that, you know, the people, well, we were talking about this off mic about Pillion, but the people that are seeing Housemate ads are the people who want to see Pillion.

1:56:19You know what I mean? But I'm just assuming box office-wise that this movie is going to be the sort of sole wide release and open like number eight. You know what I mean? like that'll be like Five Nights at Freddy's and Zootopia and Wicked continue to do pretty good. Ellen McKay also opened. It is this thing that is spinning the industry into a state of panic that is entirely self-created where they're just like, well, if Ellen McKay is the only wide release that weekend, I guess it will have to do okay. And you're like, that is some fucking 1997 thinking. And there was even still like faint traces of that in like 2017.

1:56:58People are inevitably going to go to the movie theater. Right. But there used to be this default. They check the showtimes on Friday and go, we'll just see whatever. My sister, when we were in Rhode Island in the summers, we would just call the repeating phone answering service and write down the times and whatever fit we saw. That's why I saw the Leave It to Beaver movie in theaters because it was the one with the right showtime. It was why it was valuable to have a movie open on 2 ,000 screens because saturation would just basically short of an atomic disaster that was usually driven by like intense negative feelings.

1:57:31Very bad buzz, right. Right. That like you would just get default walk-up business. Let's go see a movie. Right. And I don't think that's gonna happen here. Maybe we're wrong. Maybe it makes 40. I hope I'm so fucking wrong, but the fact that it's opening without competition and then we're gonna get some headline of like, this is the worst weekend before Christmas or two weekends before Christmas in like fucking 10 years. And I'm like, what do you guys want? You like didn't release anything commercial for two months and then put$3 billion movies within three, four weeks of each other, they're like sucking up all the oxygen because you didn't spread them out.

1:58:03Were you funding me or is the Ella McKay post thing actually an online thing? We're trying to make it a thing. A lot of people are doing it in a jokey way on Twitter, but I think it's more of a film Twitter thing. Like film Twitter people. Okay. It's not like TikTok. It's not like Gentle Minions or anything. I don't think so. How great would it be if it had some fucking like... You never know, but... Anyone but you lip sync TikTok. Yeah, you know what I mean? Like some weirdly surprising viral thing that somehow sells it. What if it performs like fucking Greatest Showman? Like it opens to three and everyone's like, oof.

1:58:38And then Weekend 2, you're like, it's up 250%. Is that that circus musical? Yeah. Yeah. What were you going to say, David? Oh, just that it opens to three and then makes three for 29 more weekends. You're like, small drop. Three, three, three, three, three. ending up at a robust domestic total of 30? It's how kids learn basic math. Like, what's three times seven weeks of LM a game? Oh, boy. No, it'll probably open to a black hat or so. Let me, let me, let's, I just want to circle back to two other things. Because I feel like the younger brother is a total dud, is the sentiment I keep hearing for everyone who's seen it.

1:59:18And I came loaded for bear, especially having read that script and been like, fuck, this part is interesting. if not incredibly tricky to pull off. And I kind of liked him if only because I think the worst version of that character is someone doing 8 ,000 fucking really loud ticks. And I appreciated his choice to be too understated. They tried to get Justin Bartho just reprised his Gigli role. That feels like the nightmare of what I was worried. It was going to be when people told me the kid was bad. Where I'm just like, he's going to be like fucking touching the doorknob 20 times and like screaming.

1:59:54He's just like pouty in a way that people don't like when certain young male actors do that kind of role. I don't know who would be good. I don't know. I don't either. It's a little bit of an impossible part in how he set it up. Yeah. I do. The performance I quietly really like in this movie and a scene where I was like, this feels like fucking classic James L. Brooks magic is the other part of her security detail who's trying to get overtime because he's going through a divorce and needs money to raise his kids. But that scene, I mean, is truly out of nowhere. Yes. And one of those things where you're like, did I forget that I went to the bathroom or something and this guy was set up earlier?

2:00:38Because it is James L. Brooks magic. I agree. It's the classic James L. Brooks thing. Everyone's got a story. This is not the movie we've been in. Who is this guy? Do you want to know? Can I reveal to you guys? Please reveal to me who it is. That is a young actor named Joey Brooks, who is the son of James L. Brooks, who I... How the hell... To get cast in his dad's... That is such a weird coincidence that he ended up in that movie when his dad was the director. I know, that's so crazy. I really like him. And he doesn't work that much, but he's got one scene in the big short. Yeah, I remember...

2:01:11I'm looking at his IMDb and I remember that scene. And I remember being like, who is this guy? He's got interesting dialogue rhythms and an interesting energy and an interesting face. One scene is he in a big short. It is John Magaro and Finn Whitrock try to go to take a big meeting. And their receptionist comes downstairs and gives them the polite brush off. Oh, that's him. And clearly was sent down to test if they're worth his time. And he's really good in it. And then he was like, McKay clearly likes him a lot. I think he's got a small part in Vice or Don't Look Up. He showed up on Winning Time.

2:01:42He's like my age. He's like mid-30s. There are a couple other things he's been in, but I always think he's interesting. He's in Molly's Game. He's in Molly's Game. He plays like one of the young. Yeah. He's in 17 episodes of Winning Time, a show I watch. It does feel like McKay always casts him. Probably through some connection to his father. Right. I think he is actually the rare case of like. That scene is wild, man. It's a wild scene, but I think he plays it beautifully. Sure. Sure. Yeah. And on paper, you're waiting for the explanation of why is the scene in this movie? It's the director's son.

2:02:17but also it gives Ella a chance to be kind of a little annoyed about it where it's like oh she's really principled but also principle is not taking into account that sometimes people need extra money again I don't know it's also working in this pseudo romantic plot line she has with Camille that does not actually come to fruition but I feel like there's the vaguest hint in that final scene of like oh maybe there'll be something there because they work because he quits his job to work with her which there isn't also a reshoot by the way the movie is supposed to just end with She steps down I'm stunned to learn that that bizarre scene was a reshoot.

2:02:52The scene where they're like, do you want to tell her? I'll tell her. Okay, here we are. We can announce that you have fed a very specific number, like 9 ,482 moms or whatever it was. Like, it doesn't, it's very strange. But it also feels like, but it's nice. It feels like a test screening note of the movie ends with she's resigned and she's 34. What the fuck does she do with the rest of her life? Exactly, she's doing something. Right. I like when people help moms. Okay, sorry. Sue me. I liked the movie too. I like that she wants to help people. It'd be funny if she was like, she takes power and she's like, okay, great.

2:03:28How can we hurt them? We took food away from 9 ,000 families. Doesn't two weeks notice end with Sandra Bullock also working at Legal Aid? Possibly. I mean, that's the greatest movie ever made. I feel like going to work for Legal Aid is how people resolve like a lawyer story. Yeah, where it's like, don't worry, they're not evil anymore. they've left the poisonous system. Yeah. I met someone the other day and I was like, what does your wife do? And she was like, oh, she's a lawyer who works at a nonprofit for like fighting eviction. And I was like, oh, so she's a sellout. And this person I was making friends with didn't realize that I was joking.

2:04:01Oh, they thought you just really were. Yeah, yeah. I was like, I was like, okay, as much as I liked that it ended with everything working out and her being, you know, the nicest lady, it would have been kind of cool if like you see the back of a chair and she turns around, she's smoking a cigar. She's in the mob now. That would be good. She went totally evil. And then a pizza comes flying at the screen. It drips down and then cheese, it says the end. That would be good if the cheese said the end. And then a question mark in tomato sauce. I think if audiences reject this movie... They can add that ending.

2:04:36No, I was going to say that's probably the reason why. The Monday morning quarterbacks are going to say it really needed to send audiences out on a high note of seeing the end spelled out in cheese splattered against the screen. The Ninja Turtles needed to be vaguely evoked. Ella McKay, how can we help? Like Leonardo and Raphael show up. This movie is neither radical nor bodacious. The Ninja Turtles are from Rhode Island. Ella is sort of a hero and a half show. Look, this is, and this is why Ben is in a good mood. He's got a big smile on his face. our last record of 2025. It is, in fact. Oh, wow, that's significant.

2:05:18Yes. I don't think I've ever been here for the last record of anything. Griffin is going on a work vacation. I'm doing a little work vacation. He's doing a little work. We're not going to talk about that. I know what it is. Too much because it's top secret. I just want to... It's a remake of the Film Talk secret. I don't want people speculating too largely about it because I feel like Ben has been doing some wind-up because it's an exciting thing. I think it will just be a fun surprise to people when they see you. You're going to be in one of Barney Frank's dag films, and I think that's great.

2:05:45Correct. That's a good part. The script is good. You say the same thing on next week's episode, which covers the film, what's it called? Avatar colon The Way of Water? No. Fire and Ash. I just know our Reddit is going to be like, wait a second, is Herbie talking in Doomsday? Is that why? It's not Doomsday. It's not, but it'll be a fun thing when it is made public. So next week on Blank Check, we're talking about Avatar, Fire and Ash. Mm-hmm. Then we're taking a week off. Then we're talking about, is this thing on? We're going to take a week on to talk about this week, that movie. Yeah. And then we'll talk about Park Jan-Wook's No Other Choice.

2:06:22But to remind people, in our week off, first episode of Critical Darlings, on this same feed. On this very feed right here. And then it will come out every Thursday after that. Yep. Through the end of March. Through Oscar stuff. Yeah. And then after that, as you said. We're doing Lin Ramsey after Park Jan-Wook. And Peter Weir after that. And Peter Weir after that. And after that, I don't know. I don't know. Lynn Ramsey from Something About Mary? Yeah. Yeah. I looked that lady up the other day because I wanted to use her photo. The tan lady. Magda. Yeah, she's great. Anyway. Legend. How's she doing?

2:06:57She's all right. She's got a lot of thoughts about her. Yeah, she's the governor of Rhode Island right now. Great. Cool. Great. So, I mean, updated James L. Brooks rankings. Ben, do you like this more or less than Spanglish? No, Spanglish still is my top. That's your number one. Well, no. No. Between the two. Okay. Yeah. Because I feel like I go broadcast news, terms of endearment, as good as it gets, this. Then I go Spanglish.

2:07:32How do you know where I'll do anything? Pick your poison. Also, it's like which cut of I'll do anything am I prioritizing? I think there's more and I'll do anything I like even if the worst of it is more disastrous versus like how do you know kind of just making me feel bad from beginning to end making my teeth yeah I think any ranking I would do would have to put how do I know at the bottom yeah because again the accent work you did thank you great stuff thank you you are the best remember that you can do anything I mean I do yeah um well that's uh uh now uh an epilogued end to our James L. Brooks miniseries.

2:08:09I don't think I'm ever going to come back for another James L. Brooks movie. I mean, maybe I'm wrong. It would be astonishing. Simpsons 3 has to come, you know. The Simpsons 2 thing is interesting. We appreciate him. We appreciate him. For all the flaws, we appreciate him. We do. I mean, yeah. And we appreciate you, the listener. But of course, this isn't the last episode of the year, so I shouldn't be too over the top about all this. It is for us. It is for us. It is for us. Subscribe to the Premier Party newsletter, please. Please do. Paul Newman's gonna have my legs broke. And stay subscribed right here for Critical Darlings.

2:08:47Yes. And next week, we're gonna get all fucking horned. Oh, yeah. We're gonna meet Varang. Varang. Richard, have you met Varang? Oh, I've met Varang. Yeah, I sure have. Do you want to throw out a quick Varang take just since you're not on that episode? I want to Penny Siegel's parties. Penny Siegel. Fuck. I think it's a great performance that's underused. Yeah, it could have been more for me. Here's what I'd say. They left me wanting more. Leaving. Red means bad. Fire. Fire bad. Fire bad. There's some racial stuff in that movie that I'll be curious to hear you guys talk about. Oh, we don't. You think that movie is disrespectful to Thanators.

2:09:32Pretty much. That's, yeah. It treats them all as savages. That's right. Thank you for being here. Thank you for having me. What a treat as always. And now that I'm, I don't know, almost part of the family, I'm very grateful. You've always been part of the family, but now you're like married by law into the family. Now I own the pizza empire. Yes. By law to Rylon. Hey. There we go. Thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate, review, and subscribe. and is all it is Emma Mackie is Ella Muckay I'm nodding David's nodding