Fargo with Zach Cregger

10:17David Sims:I'm just sure they're kind of like, oh, okay. Right. When the show was announced, there was this sort of like, and the Coens gave it their blessing. And then later it came out that they were like, yeah, we don't care. If you want to do a show, that's fine. Uh, right. Not that they were dismissive, but they were just like, we made the movie. You do whatever you want. Um, because there's also the weird fucking sitcom pilot. Uh, was that a sitcom? Argo? I guess it was. No, it was like a crime show.

10:44Griffin Newman:A comedy

10:44David Sims:procedural. There was like an NBC pilot directed by Kathy Bates with Edie Falco playing Marge Gunderson.

10:51Griffin Newman:Yeah.

10:51David Sims:Really? In the 90s, like a year or two after Fargo. No, no, no.

10:55Griffin Newman:Well, oh yeah, it was in the 90s, right? It actually aired in the 2000s as part of like a brilliant but canceled. Right, yes. And wait, Kathy Bates was in this? So I guess Kathy Bates did work with the Coen brothers. She directed it. Thank you, Zach, thank you for bringing that up. And we should introduce our guest.

11:09David Sims:This is additional ammunition to the idea that there's some quiet feud between Kathy Bates She didn't do the dishes. She directed the pilot that they had no involvement in. It almost feels vindictive that she's like, I'll make my Fargo. You guys don't have the rights.

11:27Griffin Newman:Yeah, that's, that's, that's, I've never seen it. The Edie Falco thing. Have you ever seen it? I've not seen it either. She's pregnant in it, I know, which is sort of funny.

11:36David Sims:Yeah, like, what was the long term plan there? Yeah, right. Was she going to be pregnant for five seasons? Yeah, I don't know. We're talking Fargo. Our guest today is the great filmmaker, the director of Barbarian. Yeah. The upcoming weapons, which will be coming out right around the time of this episode.

11:52Griffin Newman:Well, so this episode drops, Zach, on, let's see, August 17th. So his weapons just come out. It will be out for a week and change. Wow. You know what? We did a pretty good job. Weapons! Zach Kregger. Thank you for having me. Sorry for yelling weapons. I love this show, so I'm really excited. It's very kind of you to say. That's really sick and disgusting. I mean, that's the kind of depraved shit that the director of Weapons would say. I love Blank Check.

12:20David Sims:We met last summer, and you said that to me, and I said, that's stupid. And your response was, why do you think that's stupid? I appreciated you being like, you have a show that people like. I don't understand why you're immediately turning this into an insult to me and a self-put-down. You cut through it very quickly. But it has been a dream to have you on since then. We have a mutual friend, Leslie Hedlund. Yes, we do. I said, we're doing the Coens. I feel like this might be a moment to ask Zach. Texted you. And you and Leslie both locked into the same two movies. Right. Started fighting over him, essentially.

13:03Yeah. I wanted Fargo because this is quite arguably my favorite movie of all time. And I think she might feel similarly. And you guys had offered me No Country, which is also what an amazing... I mean, it's an honor. You know, whatever. But I don't know. I just, I love, I wanted Fargo really bad. I didn't know if she cared as much as I cared. And so we had kind of a little round and round about who got what. But she was very cool to give me this.

13:34David Sims:Look, it's also, it's a win-win. It's like two masterpieces. Yeah. I could see both of you being good on both episodes. It's funny that Leslie was like, I feel like you should just take the classier movie. And I was like, which one is classier than the other? They're both very classier.

13:50Griffin Newman:I think No Country is classier in that it, well, in One Best Picture, it's an adaptation of a sort of a novel from a great American novelist. So it's like maybe mildly quote-unquote classier. this movie has a lot of minnesota accents in it and stuff like it's like a little goofier you had just worked with josh brolin of course in weapons so you were sort of like well that would be interesting to talk about but he's not in fargo is that right he's not i don't think so i mean maybe he played the big statue of paul bunyan i don't know just a bit of resemblance yeah yeah yeah um but uh but you have worked with mr brolin who of course is a cohen's fave

14:26David Sims:but is this kind of your like default gun to your head favorite movie It would be like a coin toss between this and Boogie Nights. Okay. A year apart. So it just goes to show, you know, 16, 17, when these movies came out, it's like my formative, you know, film buff years or whatever I'm trying to say. So, yeah, these both hit me in the sweet spot and made a mark. Barbarian, it's a phenomenal movie. It kind of blew me away when I saw it in theaters. And it felt like it had this mini phenomenon of people being like, where the fuck did this come from? Like, it felt like the movie just came out of nowhere.

15:02David Sims:Yep. And I really enjoyed the party trick of telling people when they were like, have you seen Barbarian? That thing rules responding with like, you know, that was directed by one of the whitest kids, you know, which people could not believe. But you have this arc of. Right. But but no, but like in a cool way. And I also think there's this weird cultural thing of like a sketch comedy to a horror movie pipeline that seems to be growing. But you also go to... There's two examples. Is there more? I guess... You got two examples there, buddy. Kyle Mooney. Yeah, I'd say that's... Joe Trulio made a horror movie.

15:40Okay. So now we're looking at four.

15:42Griffin Newman:Yeah, why not? Actually, yeah. Showalter should try a horror movie. I'm trying to think about who are big sketch legends now who have transitioned to filmmaking. Chevy Chase should direct a horror movie. Oh, yeah. Now's the time. Great sketch comic, Chevy Chase.

15:55David Sims:I know he was once a great sketch comic. But you all, that group formed from all of you guys going to film school together, right? Well, we were in the same dorm together. So we went to different schools, but we all were in the same spillover dorm in Brooklyn. That like, if you were late on your housing application, you lived in the St. George Hotel. So it just kind of attracted. You lived at the St. George Hotel? I lived in the St. George Hotel.

16:18Griffin Newman:A Bart Clark Street station. You got it. I'm incredibly familiar. That is so funny. How do I know I'm a dork?

16:23David Sims:I went to high school right by there.

16:25Griffin Newman:What's it like at the St. George Hotel? I always wonder every time. Well, it was different then. They've completely redone it now, but it was so bizarre because it was just like animal house every night. But it used to be housing, and there were tenants that just never were evicted. So we'd be like drinking 40s and smoking blunts in the hallway, and then a 90-year-old would get off the elevator and walk sadly through the pot smoke into his room. I mean, can you imagine your 80s, Kevin? And they're like, we're turning this into a dormitory. It's just like, I can't imagine. And the guy's like, I don't give a shit.

16:55I pay 60 bucks a month.

16:57Griffin Newman:I'm never leaving. I live in Brooklyn Heights.

16:59David Sims:I went to high school right by there. And I was always fascinated by the exterior and how much it kind of looked like a Barton Fink hotel. Like it looked frozen in time. And I remember with my friend walking by and going like, I need to know, is this like an expensive hotel? And I walked into the lobby. Marilyn Monroe stayed there. It was once expensive. They shot The Godfather in the basement. And then they shot Big in there, that scene where he's like in the hood and there's like gunshots and sirens and he's afraid, you know. That's shot in there. Wild. Yeah, that's in the same drawing. Right.

17:29David Sims:I was like, this clearly looks like it used to be really fancy, but also looks so frozen in amber. I wonder how much it costs. So I walked in and was like, how much is a room as like a 14 year old? And whoever was at the desk was like, this is for college students. Right. Go away. And then I was so fascinated by like, this has the outward appearance of a hotel, but also like rent controlled senior citizens live there. yeah it has a crazy history that place it was uh i heard it was in a quarantine zone for aids patients and so a lot of people died in there uh like in the in the 80s and i know there were like it was a junkie like a flop house shooting gallery at one point and you used to walk by and there would be all these like bags on strings hanging out every window which is where people would hide their heroin like out it would it's had a crazy and you know in the glory days it burned down and then was built this cannot be interesting to any of your listeners this is good this is really good podcasting kind of cool lore but you did not see

18:26Griffin Newman:Fargo in college you saw it prior you saw it in high school yeah yeah I saw it in high school did you see it in theaters you're older than I I did not see it in theaters I don't believe I did I don't think I did I think I saw it on video unfortunately yeah well I mean I would have been I was I think 12 when Fargo came out I think you're a couple years older than me like it was a little too young to be toddling over to Fargo in the theaters. Yeah. This was a major... I was 16 when it came out. Yeah. You could have snuck in. I could have snuck in. I guess. Yeah. This was an early DVD for me. I bought this on DVD and re-watched it over and over and over again.

19:00David Sims:Yeah. I feel like I had gotten so Coen's pill by the early 2000s that I remember watching this, seeing that it was going to play on cable, and being like, oh, this is my big blind spot. Already knowing in a pre-No Country era that this was kind of considered their masterpiece?

19:20Griffin Newman:Yes. I also, you know, the Hallowell's Film Guide, which I think I brought up before, which is a gigantic textbook that doesn't exist anymore, but used to get published every year, of every movie. And with ratings from zero to four stars, most movies hit zero, by a grumpy old fuck called Leslie Hallowell. He gave Fargo four stars. And like that he gave like one four stars a year or whatever. So I knew that Fargo was a big deal even when I was this little budding.

19:52David Sims:I also think it was an infamous Siskel and Ebert movie too that it was like a thing they both agreed on and were not only in agreement but were like advocating so hard and were rapturous about it. There's the story I think maybe JJ put in the dossier of the two of them seeing the screening together and Ebert turning to Siskel and going like this is why we do what we do. Hell yeah. And Ebert, like, in his initial review, I think, called it where he was like, this is one of the few perfect movies I've ever seen. And he, like, elevated it to his great movies list really early. But he just immediately was just like, this, I have rarely seen a film that so successfully achieves its ambitions.

20:30I think it's really odd, though, that he didn't pick on that fade to black off of the TV. It was kind of a hack.

20:37Griffin Newman:Yeah, keep your head on a swivel, though. I mean, Jesus. this um films like fargo or why i love the movies is how his review ends the thing i was gonna say

20:45David Sims:that's kind of funny is the first time i watched it when i'm like 14 or 15 i remember not being underwhelmed by it but going like yeah that's like another coen brothers movie wow that's fucked up it's so fucked up and then i basically i basically have watched it once every two years since then and every time i see it gets better it is one of those rare movies for me that because i haven't yet clocked the weirdness of that one fade to black every time i'm like i get it more and more um and there's something just i think what threw me off when i was seeing it the first time and had been so hyped up in my mind is it is kind of very simple it is such a like focused movie in a way and i'm always surprised by how short it is yeah yeah of course i mean all their movies are

21:34Griffin Newman:short i mean by and large uh it is it's an economical film it gets through a ton of plot it's a plotty movie yeah in 98 minutes like it's uh and marge is not introduced until minute 30

21:46David Sims:and solves the case by an hour and 20 minutes um it never feels rushed it feels like kind of moved at a lazy pace and i mean that in the best way you know like they're they're hanging out in bed talking about stamps, you know, and you never, you never feel it. It's, it's, it's amazing.

22:05Griffin Newman:Yeah. Um, so Fargo is good. Yeah. And Zach's here to talk about it. It is. This is one of those movies. I'm, I'm serious. It's like one of those movies where I'm like, yeah, I don't know. We're not going to be like, my thing about Fargo is it's actually bad. Like no, Fargo. There is so much to debate about it though. Like Dark Marge. Are we going to get into the Dark Marge? Zach, I don't know what you're talking about, but I want to know what you're talking about. I don't really know it either. Okay. So do you guys, are you familiar? There's a, There's a podcast called No Podcast for Old Men. Do you know about this?

22:33No, but it sounds like the kind of thing that exists in the world. I'm surprised you don't. It's three philosophy professors. Oh, you know what? I have heard of this. Yeah, they go through the Coen Brothers filmography, and each episode is two hours long, and they only talk about them from a philosophical standpoint and the greater themes of every movie. It's pretty fascinating. And they talk. They have a two-episode thing just for Fargo, and they get into why they consider Marge to be a dark character. And I think even Ethan acknowledged in an interview that he thinks of Marge as a dark character, which is really interesting because she's, you know...

23:07Griffin Newman:She's somewhat angelic in her sort of presentation. Yeah. And her behavior. So why is she dark? I must know more. I'm going to find out if there's more on this. But, uh...

23:18David Sims:That she is, like, containing... That she is controlling a darkness within her? Well, I don't know. I mean, I think that there's a couple of approaches you could take to the Dark Marge theory. One is that she is, you know, if you look at this movie through the lens of deception, right, and that applies on a lot of different layers. You know, the opening text, which I'm sure we're going to get into, is a lie, you know? And every character is kind of a liar. And Marge is not immune to that. You know, her... Now, I don't... This is not my point of view, okay? But this is just me putting the Dark Marge theory out there.

23:56Is that the Mike Yanagita thing, she's just as complicit in the deceit as Mike Yanagita.

24:01Griffin Newman:Like that she kind of knows it's maybe a little out of pocket to get lunch with Mike Yanagita. Like you think... Like that she's no wide-eyed innocent. She's like, oh, she probably knows. Like, oh, Mike had a bit of a crush on me or whatever. Yeah. Yeah, sure. And you could even, you know, Mike tells her on the phone he's in the Twin Cities. Yeah. And then when that other cop comes, and I noticed it on this watch, that other cop says, you know, they made a call to a Shep Proudfoot in the Twin Cities. And she's like, well, maybe I'll take a drive down there. And everybody is kind of surprised. Yeah.

24:29Are you going to drive all the way to the Twin Cities on the thinnest, on a phone call? Right. And she's like, yeah. And it's like, we can infer that she's going because she wants to see Mike Yanagita. We can infer that. I'm not sure I do infer that, to be clear. We could. We could. And then she's also, you know, she's wearing a lot of makeup. She wants to go to a nice dress shop. She looks nice. She wants to wear makeup because you want to look nicer.

24:49Griffin Newman:She does want it to be reasonable, though. She wants the Marriott to be. Hey, is it reasonable?

24:53David Sims:Yes. Mm-hmm. But it does feel like, right, there's something self-serving going on there, even if it's only I want the confidence boost. The whole thing with Fargo is the Mike Yanagida scene.

25:05Griffin Newman:Yes. Because, like, the thing with Fargo is that it's perfect, and the first time you watch it, you're blown away by, you know, how dark it is. and how funny it is the entire time, even though horrible things are happening and all that. And then just how visually striking it is. And so then you keep rewatching it. And then you keep, as you keep rewatching it, being like, Mike Yannick, he just seems weird. And then you realize, well, no, I see its plot purpose. It helps her realize that she was lied to. It helps her, you know, sort of like shades, like, you know, the deception. And then you keep watching and then you're like, okay, but like, she's a cop, wouldn't she?

25:39Griffin Newman:You know, then you start like asking, you know, It becomes, it is so interesting.

25:42David Sims:It's overly simple to read that scene as the Mike Yonagita exchange makes her realize for the first time that people could be lying. Right. Where you're like, no, she's a fucking cop. Of course she knows that. Yeah, I know. Of course she knows that because she is such a good cop. She is unfazed by these three dead bodies, she finds. She has no problem getting on her hands and knees and examining the wounds from a completely professional clinical mindset. mindset. She's clearly done this a bunch of times. And so it's odd that they would put so much shoe leather in to be like, this is the moment she realizes that people can be bad.

26:21People can lie. And it's like, what a wild thing to put into a hardened seasoned gumshoe. You know, it's

26:27David Sims:crazy, but it works. So here, I was going down some rabbit holes in theories. I didn't find the Dark Marge theory. Also, I feel embarrassed that there's a podcast called No Podcast for Old Men and our miniseries is no pod country for old cast. Whatever. Who gives a shit? Fuck me. Thank you. Sorry, I did the ice thing.

26:45Griffin Newman:You're doing the ice thing, Ben.

26:47David Sims:It might be time to take away the cup. No, I love my ice. David loves chewing ice. No, if you're going to do it, I have to say it. Sorry.

26:56Griffin Newman:Sorry. I'm trying not to bite my nails. No, no. What was the theory?

26:59David Sims:It almost feels like a thing a character would do in a Coen Brothers movie during a dramatic scene is keep chewing ice and have Skip Leaves say, just crank the audio skip loose hit that ice hard the king um i was going down different uh marge and mike yanagita uh readings and uh one reading i saw that was interesting was they were saying it's basically the inversion of the scene you have in most noirs where a male hard-boiled detective who is hyper cynical on the outside meets with a random woman gets engaged in like a romantic liaison with her and in the process uncovers something about the crime that shows how good he is at sussing out information right and this is like a complete flip of that where it's like a a non-sexual encounter right this encounter of like weird deep awkwardness and emotion in history where nothing physical happens that's all about longing and like unrequited love but also perhaps this like desire to be seen as desirable and that it gives her this lesson that is not directly related to the crime she's trying to solve is more just a philosophical reawakening of like right I should take a second look at this and not trust what people are saying which like it is that simple but also that's not giving the character enough credit and then the thing I read which I think I'd never heard before, is that scene was not originally in the script, obviously because Frances McDormand is married to Joel Cohen and is more involved in the development of these movies and is probably hearing about them as they're going along and knew that they were designing this character for her, said at some point, I don't know if it was reading a finished script for the first time or if she was reading scenes as it went along, said, can you please give me a scene that can help me define my character that isn't me on the case or with my husband.

28:55David Sims:Right. She said there were only two modes I have in this movie. It is either me in cop mode or me in wife mode. And I need you to give me one scene of additional context to show me relating to someone else to help me solve what this character is. And that was the scene they wrote. And then she said, like, when I read it, I was perplexed. I, like, didn't get it. I didn't get why this is what they wrote. And I couldn't make sense of the behavior in the scene. And her biggest thing was, and not that it was written differently, But like, I want to avoid the temptation of letting this character be too saintly by being too considerate of his emotions in this scene.

29:35David Sims:That the firmness she shows and kind of putting down the lines of going like, I'd feel more comfortable if you were sitting on the other side. But even just the energy as she's receiving everything he's saying, she was like, I can't just be like Mama Earth.

29:49Griffin Newman:Which makes, I get that. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. That's interesting. It does. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. Zach, what do you think? Do you think Marge is dark, dark Marge? Is she going to join the Dark Avengers? I don't think she's dark. I can't really embrace the Dark Marge theory. And I don't know if I've articulated it correctly at all. Like, I think there might be a more kind of complex thing behind Dark Marge that I'm completely missing here. But what I love about the Mike Yanagita scene, it's kind of what you just hinted on, is that she is writing this really delicate line of like, am I in cop mode?

30:26Am I in person mode? You know, he is making this inappropriate advance. And I'm going to keep my Minnesota nice kind of demeanor here. But I'm also going to be firm and keep my... There's just so many things happening with her in that scene. And it's so funny. It's just that scene is a masterpiece because there's so many layers happening. It works on so many levels, and it's so fucking funny. Mike Yanagita is an incredible performance. It's so funny.

30:53Griffin Newman:Everything I've read about it, there's a big interview with Steve Park that you can read that was in Entertainment Weekly or something where he was like, I was convinced the scene would get cut because it has nothing to do, ostensibly, with the movie. And then Ethan Coen called him and was like, your scene crushes. Everyone laughs. And Steve Park was like, well I was playing him as like this incredibly tragic person. But like it is a very funny like cringy uncomfortable. Like I do think it's in this dark very funny but nonetheless dark movie. It is an interesting little breathing point.

31:26David Sims:Yes.

31:26Griffin Newman:And that's probably another reason they were like yeah it functions. Like don't take it out. Like keep the Yanagida scene.

31:31David Sims:I don't know if this is their best movie. It is certainly in the top tier for me. They have made a handful of five star masterpieces in my mind. but this does feel like the ultimate cohen's film in the same way we were saying in our blue velvet episode like that's not my favorite lynch movie but it is the movie that is the best encapsulation at the right point in the bell curve of the development of power where you're just like this is every single thing they do well every theme they find interesting the holding of like all the tones at the same time there's some interview i totally agree obsessed with where Ethan Cohen, you know, whenever people ask them, like, what's your directing style or how do you work with actors?

32:12David Sims:And there's some interview I got to find where Ethan Cohen says, like, I've never consciously directed an actor in my life. We like don't talk subtext with them. We write the script. If we give them notes, they're technical about just like what we need to do to get the take to work or whatever. And he said over time and being asked that question so many times, the best answer I've ever come to is that directing is about tone management. And I think about that so much. And this movie is like the greatest study in that where you're like, every scene is holding like three tones that should not be able to coexist.

32:45David Sims:And they've made great films where the power is that they're able to successfully navigate the transitions and tone from scene to scene. But the like combination of putting the Minnesota nice with the sort of like deep darkness of man noir means that they're doing that tonal balance of like just what we're talking about in the Mike Yamagita scene where you're just like how can it be like these things simultaneously how can it be

33:10Griffin Newman:like this funny and upsetting and confusing and clarifying I mean not to toot Zach's horn but you made a scary movie that was funny yes but not funny in like a whatever you know like not a parody scary like you made a movie where I was laughing the entire time I don't know if you're going for me laughing almost the entire time with barbarian but like it is a movie with a lot of humor in it uh without sacrificing any of the darkness and i think the humor similarly stems

33:39David Sims:from really drilling into like the bizarreness of human behavior yeah so how'd you do that big jerk one of the things that kind of crystallizes what the cohen's are doing and far thank you for that couple i'll say thank you thank you uh is you know the paul bunyan shot where it's like underlit and And Paul Bunyan, the big statue, looks like demonic. And that one shot is kind of like the perfect encapsulation of everything they're doing in this movie, where it's like this, first of all, it's crystallizing the location. All of their movies are so location-dependent, it's kind of amazing. And this one is almost the most.

34:16And then it's this big kind of joyful thing, and they light it and shoot it like the scariest fucking thing you've ever seen. fucking carter burwell score the carter burwell score is maybe his best score just so it's so

34:32David Sims:amazing but like even when carter burwell does comedies or has like branched out bagpipes on that thing i just think he there is always something ominous underneath any piece of

34:42Griffin Newman:music he has ever written uh he does uh have a bit of a yeah sure like a gothic kind of like he's the best, Carter Burwell. Such a sweetie pie, too. And this movie, with all of the zaniness that's definitely in here, his score never really acknowledges any of it. I mean, the closest the score gets to anything playful is when they're breaking into the house, you know, and he's shattering the back door, and she's running into the bathroom, and it's like that, it's just that plucky doom, doom, doom, doom. That's like, that's the happiest we get, you know? I mean, that scene, the break-in, the kidnapping of her is the perfect encapsulation.

35:22Griffin Newman:We're like, that seems very scary. Yes. And very, very upsetting and funny the entire time. Yes. And I know it is the most trite observation in the world to say that Pargo is a black comedy, and nonetheless, I keep saying it, but it is the perfect black comedy. And I do think it was so transgressive, this movie. People were just like, I can't believe how funny it is, given that people get murdered and families are sad. Yeah. There's something about that scene that has to be talked about. And by the way, are we ever going to start at the beginning and go to the end? No, we will. And I'm going to open the dossier.

35:54Griffin Newman:And I'm sorry. We're jumping all around. It's just so exciting to talk. Well, I can wait until we get to that scene. There's a lot to say about how inept these guys are. First of all, Shep Proudfoot vouches for Gare, not Showalter. Right? So he likes Peter Stormare. He does not know Showalter, which is really funny. Incredibly funny to imagine Shep and Gare hanging out. I could see it. Not talking. We probably did time together and like brunted at each other. in jail and we're like, you're all right. But it's just so amazing how fucking terrible these guys are at crime. Especially, like, every time I watch this movie, it blows my mind that Steve Buscemi knew they were gonna, like, take this car, abduct a woman, put her in the backseat, and drive out of town, and he didn't have the forethought of, like, putting the tags on the car that he had.

36:42It's like, oh, I forgot to change the tags. It's just the tags when they get pulled over. you know i it's like that's the first thing you should have done you know they're terrible at crime and then he wants to bribe the cop when he could have just shown him the tags okay so all of that is is just lunacy but then the front door is open and yet he puts a ski mask on he walks up the back porch and you can look out that door and see like seven other houses a million other houses yes they're not in the middle of nowhere of what he's doing and then he smashes this giant play thing with a crowbar it's got to be louder than a gunshot it's just so such such a lack of thought it's wild and i i love it but it's just crazy how much these guys suck at what they're here to do

37:22David Sims:it does feel like it is their single favorite thing to explore in movies is people who are so confident that they know how to pull off something that is incredibly complicated yeah and it's usually crime right but it's also just like anytime someone's like i think i can figure this out.

37:41Griffin Newman:What trouble do you think Macy is in? Is he just underwater already in some other real estate speculation or whatever? Like, why does he are? He needs so much money. And I love that they don't they don't they don't tell you. He's just like, I'm in trouble. Well, I am not going to talk about that. You know, like and it's like a 10 percent finder's fee on 750 is 75 ,000. That's not going to do it. No, he owes this other guy. He's building this other guy out of 350 ,000. This is 1987 in Minnesota. Like, what have you done? How did you get in the hole like this? What do you have to show for it?

38:13David Sims:I mean, it's one of the most effective single lines in screenwriting history in my mind, which is when the Harv Pressnell character says they will never need for money. Oh, yeah.

38:25Griffin Newman:Right. It's, you know, the names of the characters. Scotty and Gene never have to work.

38:31David Sims:Right. It's so perfect because I think from that moment, you can extrapolate. William H. Macy has gotten in over his skis basically, I assume, five years trying to figure out some big scheme to impress his father-in-law and be like, look how much money I made. And the deeper he gets in the hole, the more he doubles down and tries to find some other way to not only bail himself out but get out ahead. And he just keeps falling deeper and deeper and deeper. and it's like that sentiment which you just imagine he's been hearing things to this effect for so long have gotten so deeply in his head and yet that guy's read on him is 100 % correct.

39:10David Sims:The most devastating thing is that he knows the guy knows he's got him pegged. Does anybody like Jerry?

39:18Griffin Newman:No, he sucks. He sucks, right? Does Gene and Scotty like Jerry? I don't think they do. I think they tolerate him. I think Gene thinks he's all right. Scotty seemed kind of embarrassed by him. Yeah, although Scotty's like so into the accordions. Yes. And another unaddressed thing is that like the two things on his wall are a white snake poster and like an accordion poster.

39:40David Sims:But the evidence that no one likes him is how quickly all of his customers are like, fuck you. Yeah. And his coworker who's chewing the burritos, like he got extra tickets and he's like, what the fuck are you talking about?

39:53Griffin Newman:I think about that guy all the time that he won't even enter. He's like, why are you even asking? But he's disgusted that Jerry is asking for a gopher ticket.

40:01David Sims:He is like a rare example of a guy who everyone in the universe feels comfortable big dog. I'm going to open the dossier now. Just being like, you fucking. Yeah, you definitely suck.

40:11Griffin Newman:I'm going to open the dossier now. We can dig into the sort of genesis of this movie. But I do think the customer saying a fucking liar is the greatest like fuck in history. The way like he's so polite. He's such a good Minnesota guy. He's being screwed over so plainly that he's like, I think I can call this guy a fucking liar. And so but it's hard getting it a fucking lie. You see him decide to cut. Exactly. It's great.

40:39David Sims:Before you open the dossier, can I throw out my big thought I had watching the movie last night? It's not a profound thought. It's a very trite thought. Crowler needs a jump. What's your thought? I think, if anything, this movie is about the difference between being nice and being a good person. Sure.

40:54Griffin Newman:Absolutely. Of course. That is why the setting is the setting. Right. That's like the core tension of the movie.

41:00David Sims:And that scene's a perfect example where that guy is just like, I have been wronged. Right. And I'm trying to decide if I say fuck right now, does that make me a bad person? And it's like, no, it's impolite, but it's justified. Right. Versus a bunch of people being very nice and polite and doing awful things.

41:24David Sims:David. Yes. I got myself into a real pickle. Uh-oh. I thought it'd be funny to put on some Groucho Marx glasses. Uh-huh. Very, very funny. Very funny. Classic. I've been stuck wearing them for five years because it's such a hassle to replace your glasses that once I made that commitment, now I'm walking around with the big schnoz, the eyebrows, the mustache, all times.

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41:51David Sims:I forgot about Zenni Optical.

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43:22Griffin Newman:So this film comes after the Hudsucker Proxy. Obviously, the Hudsucker Proxy was a bit of a failure for the Coens. I don't know your take on the Hudsucker Proxy, Zach. It's a great movie, in my opinion. It's one of their, there are only like two Coen Brothers movies that I don't necessarily fully connect with. And I want to love The Hudsucker Proxy. I've probably seen it seven or eight times. I always start it, and I'm so dazzled in the beginning. And I always kind of fall off the bike at some point in the middle of that movie.

43:51David Sims:What's the other one or two out of curiosity? The other one is, and I hate to do any sort of negative talk about any Coen Brothers movie because their worst days is still really fascinating and worth, you know, study. But, you know, Lady Killers, I have a hard time connecting. I don't think anyone's really going to, like,

44:11Griffin Newman:wrinkle their nose at you saying the Lady Killers ain't the best. No. But re-Hudsucker, I mean, it's like, this movie was not a conscious reaction to that. They had already been writing it before they shot Hudsucker. The script was, I think they're always just kind of, like, working on the next thing as their projects spool up.

44:29David Sims:But certainly post-Hudsucker, it wasn't like other studios were saying, you nailed it. Here's another$40 million to make a big special effects-driven comedy.

44:39Griffin Newman:Right. Fargo is, according to the Coens, and I think this is basically true, like their most realistic script yet. Like it is contemporary-ish. It's like, right, slightly before. Blood Simple is also contemporary. And it's also very simple. I mean, honestly, it's kind of their most Blood Simple-y script. Yeah. since Blood Simple. Yes. It feels like them sort of going back

45:02David Sims:to what they were trying to do in that movie with the knowledge they've gained over the last 10 years. But they're like, yeah,

45:06Griffin Newman:we want to use unembellished sets. We want to use real locations. And they did include this title card saying the film was based on a true story. They've sort of said a lot of things over that over the years. Yeah. Obviously, this movie's not based on a true story. Supposedly, somebody maybe died thinking it was based on a true story, which is the basis of the also not true movie, Kumiko the Treasure Hunter. Which is a great movie. Very cool movie.

45:34David Sims:Just so conceptually smart. Have you ever seen that movie, Zach? I haven't. I should. It's a good movie. It's so fucking good, but it similarly is like, starts with the title card, this is based on a true story, and then is a movie based on an urban legend about someone believing that Fargo was true and looking for the bag of money.

45:55Griffin Newman:um the cohen say they kind of heard tall tales essentially along those lines growing up in

46:03David Sims:minnesota of this kind of stuff stories that are like little true crime newspaper clippings

46:12Griffin Newman:but i think the paul bunyan stuff it's like paul like this is a tall tale yeah oh absolutely right Like it's a modern tall tale.

46:20David Sims:The stories that it seems to be riffing on feel very like, and I swear to God, this happened to my cousin's friend. Right.

46:26Griffin Newman:But I think they know and they do acknowledge it in one interview that like saying a movie is based on a true story locks the audience in in a weird sort of a way where the audience is not going to be like, well, this is fanciful or like that would never happen because they're like, well, they said it was based on a true story. Like, so.

46:42David Sims:I also think they post Miller's Crossing and Barton Fink are aware of the fact that eggheads are trying to overanalyze their movies.

46:50Griffin Newman:You should do that in front of the Resident Evil movie you're doing, Zach.

46:53David Sims:You should start with, like,

46:54Griffin Newman:this is based on a true story. Umbrella is real, and they're up to no good.

46:58David Sims:You should recut Barbarian to have that in. You should just make that, like, going forward, all movies have, this is based on a true story. Let's find out, in Weapons, the first line of the movie is, this is a true story. Hell yeah. There you go. So, there have been lots of... But yes, I think, no, no, it's... Because the other incident, there was some incident, the circumstances were very different, but of a guy hiring people to kidnap his wife, to make the ransom money back. All these things that were very loose inspirations in a way that's sort of like Texas Chainsaw Massacre says it's based on a true story.

47:30David Sims:And you're like, yeah, Ed Gein killed people. This is not really based on anything.

47:34Griffin Newman:It's sort of a true crime movie. They consider Blood Simple to be more like a James M. Cain type, you know, noir thriller, right? Right. Fargo, they wanted to be drier, less hard-boiled. But then, obviously, they are also, Blood Simple's a Texas movie. And this is about where they grew up. Of course, the movie is named after a city in North Dakota where almost none of the action happens. It is only the encounter at the bar at the beginning of the film. And they just like how Fargo sounds. And they're right. It's a great title for a movie. Right. They were like, Brainerd's a bad title. Right.

48:11David Sims:Yeah.

48:13Griffin Newman:working title films had sort of co-produced Hudsucker Proxy, a British production company, which becomes one of their biggest collaborators. Eric Felner, they financed this film. I think it cost about$7 million. Like, it was not like a mega production or anything like that.

48:36David Sims:Look, their movies are not losing massive amounts of money up until Hudsucker. And as you pointed out, a couple of them made a little profit. But our buddy Alex Ross Perry was on Big Picture recently and was talking about this thing that's kind of disappeared from the American film industry, which is like Wes Anderson makes Bottle Rocket for like five million dollars at Columbia and it bombs, but it gets good reviews. And people are like, OK, you only get 15 to make your next movie at Disney. Right. This sense of like if there's innate talent and there's a voice and actors want to work with this person that people will keep kind of investing in you in the hopes that it will pay out at some point which certainly like circle films had with them and working title had with them um many of the roles are written for the actors that play them mcdormand

49:26Griffin Newman:buscemi storm air um had they worked with mcdormand properly since raising arizona uh no i'm bad at this right she is she in miller's crossing i was okay uh she certainly hasn't done like a major role for them basically since blood simple yeah no she hasn't at all um and she has been in all

49:49David Sims:of their movies in small not all of them but a lot of them yes um stormare they wanted in miller's

49:56Griffin Newman:crossing yes um they grew up in minnesota they're very familiar with minnesota nice culture which is obviously something that I think was introduced to me and a lot of people via the movie Fargo, which we're discussing today.

50:10David Sims:I think my exposure point was probably the 1996 movie Fargo.

50:14Griffin Newman:Now, Zach, you're not from the Midwest, right? Where are you from? East Coast. Yeah, right. So you two possibly exposed to Minnesota nice type vibes, Swedish friendliness, weird, you know, all this through Fargo? Fair to say. um joel's quote uh about marge being pregnant and wearing a puffy coat is like he's like the sponginess is part of it like firmness so nice everyone's bouncing off of people um they kind of like we wanted her to kind of like talk funny and wear a funny hat and walk funny because she's pregnant but not be a clown like yeah we wanted this kind of cliche cop but she's a good cop like she's good at her job and she's very competent despite being this like cartoon nice lady like like the way she's like toddling around and then being like ah you know like to to this like grisly miserable murder scene right and like it's not like they're like what you know those swedish uh dramas uh about murder that are so popular they're always like oh my god murder in sweden this is so terrible like in a country where no one murders they should sort of be saying that here whether one would imagine they're like we don't see a lot of like insane murders here in fucking Brainerd.

51:28Griffin Newman:Right. But they're never like that.

51:30David Sims:They're more just kind of like, oh boy, you know. But that like speaks to this notion of a dark Marge thing where it's like, she's, this isn't her first day on the job. Even if this case, the fucking ice cup. No, I'm just drinking some water. Sorry. I would say. The audio says different. Yeah. But you can tell that she has seen many murders. Yes. And this is just her job. And part of her demeanor is to sort of like cope with it and cover it, you know, and not like, I mean, we've talked about other movies like Manhunter is always the one I think about. Sure. Where that for me is a movie about a guy who's just like spent enough time in the darkness that he's actually never going to come out now.

52:10David Sims:Right.

52:11Griffin Newman:Manhunter. I mean, Will Graham is like, I'm so good at understanding murderers that my head hurts. Right.

52:15David Sims:And I'm past the point of no return.

52:17Griffin Newman:Like, I no longer know how to talk to my wife. The way McDormand puts it about Marge says, she says, there's something scary about Marge that's hard to articulate. She's simple and on the surface, but she's not naive. She's not innocent because she's good at her job, which gives her contact with crime and murder. But she has absolutely no understanding of why people do the terrible things they do. Possibly she represents this certain feeling, which I think Joel and Ethan felt growing up in Minnesota. But like she does, she's sort of hinting at like, yeah, there's something kind of like inherently odd about this character.

52:47That might be the core of Dark Marge, is this willful sort of lack of acknowledgement that that Minnesota nice has. You know, Marge is looking out the windshield at the end of the movie, she says, and it's a beautiful day. And it is not a beautiful day. It is like sleeting. You feel like you're in Mongolia, you know, and it's like the worst day of all. And so this just total, like, I'm just deciding to only see the positive. Everything is fine. And it's an interesting sort of dichotomy with her where she is unfazed by murder. And yet she is, you know, ignoring the darkness that is clearly all around.

53:22David Sims:She is putting active work into trying to maintain some core belief in humanity.

53:29Griffin Newman:Here's my thing. I've seen Thargo a million times. So do not worry about Marge. Like, I know she's going to make it through the movie. and I probably always knew that because she does feel indestructible but like when you're with Marge in this movie I would say let's maybe put aside the Mike Yanagita scene you're very comforted like them being in bed together is so comfortable it's one of the healthiest marriages you want to just crawl into that bed and just snuggle off with Marge

53:53David Sims:100 % I've ever seen depicted in the movie

53:54Griffin Newman:gotta eat a breakfast

53:57David Sims:I saw someone else call out

53:59Griffin Newman:by the way them eating Arby's together like you know all their usually you're just like very happy to be in her

54:04David Sims:presence every scene they have together they're either eating in bed or both yes right it is

54:10Griffin Newman:literally always some form of like comfort and like i i wonder about like watching this movie for the first time did you did it did people have the kind of like marge is is she gonna be okay like she's like yeah kind of moseying into this like awful thing like but i don't i i'm trying to imagine ever feeling that she's pregnant we know this yeah yeah it's like they're not gonna do that there is some sort of like fundamental like no like she will they're not allowed to kill the

54:39David Sims:pregnant right it does bake innate sort of stakes into it it does make your lizard brain sort of on guard like you feel more worried about her even though it's hard to think of a movie with a character being pregnant where you see the belly less in a way sure because as you said she's so bundled.

54:59Griffin Newman:Right.

55:00David Sims:You know, you're sort of aware of it, but they're not constantly like showing you her in maternity pants or whatever. And they only verbally acknowledge it, I think twice in the whole movie when she says, carrying quite a load here. And I think maybe at the end when they say two more months. Yeah. But that's about it.

55:17Griffin Newman:It's right. No one is ever like, are you okay? Right. When Mike Yanagita hugs her too tight. Yes. You know, she mentions it then. Buscemi obviously is in a lot of their movies in Miller's Crossing is literally hired because they need a motor mouth. They need someone who can read dialogue fast. So they write this for him thinking, like, you will be the person who doesn't shut up. He's also, and Ethan says this, he's the audience. Yeah. Like, 100%. He's the one who basically reacts to everyone with, like, what the fuck is the matter with you? To Jerry, to Grimm, to Gare, to Harvey Presnell when he meets him.

55:52Griffin Newman:Right. Like, he is an outsider and kind of an alien and, like, the only non-Minnesota. So, I mean, Gare is sort of like actually Swedish, I guess. But like he kind of counts.

56:03David Sims:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Although Steve Bisham, you do get the vibe that he is, if not from this neck of the woods, intimately familiar with these territories. He knows where to go get laid. Exactly. He definitely knows where to get laid. And how. Yeah.

56:19Griffin Newman:William H. Macy is the only sort of star that was cast, like, you know, where they are. he reads for the deputy detective for Carl. Carl? Is that his name? I'm not sure. No, Lou. Lou, sorry. Not sure I agree with you 100 % on your police work there, Lou. They like the audition and the Coens are like, that was funny. I mean, because William H. Casey at this point, I think he's basically just kind of like... He's like a mammoth theater guy. He's a theater guy. He's on ER in like a big recurring role. He's a Chicago sort of semi-legend or whatever, but he's not like a big movie actor uh and at his audition the cohen's are like you should read jerry like this was good so they send him away and he comes back tomorrow uh and uh he does his audition and they said that's real good thanks and uh then he finds out that they're auditioning in new york still so as he puts it i got my jolly lutheran ass on an airplane and walked in and said i want to read again because I'm scared you can screw this up and hire someone else.

57:22David Sims:He has said, I want to get his quote here. He said, I actually said that, you know, you can't play that card too often as an actor. Sometimes it just blows up in your face. But I said, guys, this is my role. I want this. I like his acknowledgement that most of the time people do those fucking gambits. It is like so beyond destructive and embarrassing to their careers. Right.

57:44Griffin Newman:Yeah, right.

57:45David Sims:But you hear about the rare examples of like...

57:48Griffin Newman:People shouldn't tell those stories because it emboldens people probably to act crazy. Right. Right. They had written the part as like a sort of slovenly guy. And with Macy, they're like, no, it's like a tightly wound performance, essentially. That's wild. They had conceived of this as like a sloven, like a kind of overweight, like loser. Yeah. That is insane. They also said who would have been right for that? No one. The true coat scene where the guy calls him a fucking liar is an experience Ethan Cohen had essentially word for word. Yes. Like buying a car in Minnesota. Right. And never forgot clearly.

58:23Griffin Newman:Yeah. Harvey Presnell, who is so amazing in this movie and has a voice like a car engine.

58:30David Sims:You said this in our Jurassic Park episode, but that the magic of that movie is any scene you're watching, whoever's on screen at that moment, you think is the best performance in the movie. And Fargo's another one of those. Every time I watch it, I'm like, who's my best supporting actor nominee?

58:45Griffin Newman:He's so good.

58:45David Sims:And like some of the one scene performances, I'm like, well, it's this guy.

58:49Griffin Newman:The thing with him is he is a sort of a Broadway legend and like a big singer. Yeah. And when you realize that about him, because then later in life, he was this kind of gravelly character actor.

58:59David Sims:This was his first movie in like 15 or 20 years.

59:02Griffin Newman:I think it was a bit of a resurgence for him because then he's in Saving Private Ryan. He has an incredible monologue in Saving Private Ryan. Yeah. And he does. Right. He does like 10. Andy Barker P.I., of course. Yeah. He was funny on that. He was very good on it. But yeah, he does like 10 years of this. Yes. Right. Yeah. But I obviously mostly associate him with Fargo. um but uh they had um they they wrote that character basically when they were raising money for blood simple they met lots of like texas businessmen you know who that makes who were like sort of like sort of little petty yeah kings and this is what that character is right a guy who's like made a lot of money but kind of in like his locality yeah uh and so yeah jerry's like obviously the loser version of that and this is uh and then joel john carol lynch the great great great john carol lynch uh they just loved his face yeah he's so good so they talking about like

1:00:01David Sims:the secret edge to marge the hidden edge uh and mcdormand i just love this idea that mcdormand felt comfortable enough to constantly push them to be like what's going on under the surface here which other actors I think kind of wouldn't she was like what's our backstory and they were like I don't know you guys figure it out and the thing they settled on was that they met on the force together when they decide to get married they were like this is too dangerous for both of us and he quit because she was a better cop but you know what's interesting about that backstory though that doesn't jive with mike yanagita saying you married son of a high school together oh you married old norm son of a gunderson like mike knew norm back in the day so i guess maybe they didn't meet on the force but that they were both cops i mean they also said the cohen's were like i don't know whatever if that if that makes you guys happier but like the way they were playing internally was they both knew that she was the better cop it would be absurd for her to retire even if she's the one who's pregnant

1:01:09Griffin Newman:um deacons uh roger deacons uh shoots this movie um absolutely went insane yeah just incredible

1:01:17David Sims:and yet coming off of uh hudsucker in particular i was watching some of his commentary on this yeah he had the dvd has a deacons commentary yes you want it um and he's his podcast now that he does with his wife team deacons is so fucking good yes this commentary was recorded like 25 years ago and it feels like he's not super comfortable talking at length about stuff. Not that he's cagey, but it feels like he hasn't. Whatever. But he did say, like, I read this script and it was just so fucking good. And the characters are so good. And they cast such good actors that I was like, I don't need to do anything fancy here.

1:01:52David Sims:This location's interesting. And you just watch it with the commentary. And he keeps breaking down like, yeah, this is another scene where it's two setups total.

1:01:59Griffin Newman:Well, they initially told him we only want fixed shots. Like you're doing nothing. And then they realize, like, that's maybe a little too puritanical. But it is. And they do move the camera. And, like, you know, there's a little bit of stuff. But it's a pretty.

1:02:12David Sims:In every scene, I was like. No coverage. What's the simplest way to cover this? And the only things I care about are, like, capturing the performance and the performance relative to their environment. As you were saying, Zach, it's, like, such a location movie that. And it's also. It's a thing that I find so fascinating about them and especially their work with Deakins. that they almost always, if not literally always, shoot inside of the conversation. You kind of never get over-the-shoulder stuff with the Coens. You're always placed in between the people talking. Yeah. And that part of it is, I think Deakins talks about, you know, he came out of documentaries first and foremost and his school of thought for how meticulous he's able to, like, meticulously construct what feels like the perfect frame.

1:02:59David Sims:He talks about it being a pretty organic process. that for him, it's like figuring out how to do with the fewest number of lights possible, the fewest setups, like simplify it. And he's like, my guiding principle is just like, what is the best place for the camera to be to capture what the actor's doing? Because he's used to that from documentaries of like, you might not get multiple setups. You just need to be, have the right relationship to the subject in that moment. And so everything is just kind of like drilled down to like, you want to be right there as if the person is kind of talking to you.

1:03:31David Sims:in the center of the space.

1:03:33Griffin Newman:Movie's entirely location, basically no sets at all. There's one bathroom set. That's it. That's got to be the storm air shower curtain. Right, where they're fucking things up. That makes sense. And, you know, they famously, I feel like it's the most disgusting about this movie, had no snow. They had like a weird mild winter, so they had to bring in a ton of artificial snow. And then they had to like go to North Dakota to shoot big exterior stuff because they had to go find snow, essentially.

1:04:04David Sims:Deacon said the opening credits shot is one of the last things they shot because they finally had given up and were like, we're not getting the snow we need. We have to travel out and we'll get that last.

1:04:15Griffin Newman:Yeah. Guys, do you want to talk about Fargo? Yeah.

1:04:19David Sims:Okay, great. What happens in Fargo? So, yes, opens with true story cards. Yes. than this negotiation between Macy and Stormare. I'm not going to debate you, Jerry. Sorry, that's such a big deal here. And David, I feel like you wanted to slide past it, but I have to put the brakes. 1987 is important. I think that's important. Why do you think that's important? I don't disagree with you. I think it's because it's about the end of the Reagan era. It's about the financial boom that is coming to an end here.

1:04:50Griffin Newman:Like the rugged individualism of Harvey Press, of the dad, right? Being like, there's my money. Like, I feel like it all feels very 80s, very Reagan. Like, he's like, I'm this self-made, like, macho man. Right? And, like, that's what Jerry wants to be.

1:05:05David Sims:Yeah. Also, not, look, Reagan was not a Minnesota guy. No, he sure wasn't. Was not his kind of persona and the way he, like, built off of his Hollywood history.

1:05:15Griffin Newman:I will trumpet Minnesota is the only state that did not vote for Ronald Reagan in either election. It's pretty nice. The only state. Pretty nice of them. That's wild. Isn't that crazy? That is insane. Only because Walter Mondale was from Minnesota. So he did win his home state. It was the only state he won. He swept 49 states. Reagan won 49 states, and Walter Mondale won Minnesota and Washington, D.C. Wow. Yep. Wow. Reagan won by 18 points. It was a big win for old Rodney.

1:05:43David Sims:Old times? No, for the second time. I just think it's interesting that this opening title card doesn't just say this is based on a true story. It gives the year. And then it says, if I remember correctly, you know, names have been changed to protect the innocent, and out of respect for the dead, the rest has been told exactly as it occurred. It's like, that is the bravado of stating that, of like, yeah, we barely wrote the thing. This is exactly what happened. It's awesome. And it's more convincing. It's like they did it perfectly. But it's also, I mean, it's where, like, I don't think this movie is even, like, incidentally based off of little snippets of news stories, as much as it is based on the idea of reading something like this in the paper and being like, that's so bizarre.

1:06:29David Sims:Sure. And you saw it in a movie, you'd be like, this is overwritten versus telling you this is real. You're like, I guess weird shit happens. Yeah. You do. You must have seen that clip of William H. Macy describing the moment he learned it wasn't. And he's on set in production. Oh, yes. They didn't tell in his chair. Yeah. And they and he found out it wasn't based on a true story. and he goes up to the cons. He's like, you guys, this is not true. And they're like, no. He's like, you can't do that. And they're like, yeah, we can. And it's just like, Womox, he goes, okay. It's just like, there's nothing to be said, I guess.

1:07:06David Sims:Yeah. No one's going to like, find them. He would get so deep in the process and not know. Well, also just be like, you didn't like research the real guy, but yet you feel betrayed by this. Yeah. He didn't want to meet anyone who knew Jerry Lundegard. you found no like supporting material to like look into um no i was just gonna say there's something in the like i mean it's the fucking the the phil hartman reagan sketch sure but there's something in like reagan's public persona that does feel a little adjacent to the like minnesota nice energy of this movie where this guy like phoniness is that the word yeah sure yeah like right use his sort of like old hollywood folksy like i'm just the gipper kind of thing and like sold this sort of like, it's morning in America.

1:07:53David Sims:How can you argue with this? Don't we all want America to be like it was in the morning? But it's, right, basking like a very kind of mercenary, strategic mind. Yeah. And it just sets the stage for everything that comes after. It's like everything is now seen through a different lens. You know, you engage with the movie in a completely new way and you indulge these little scenes of slower pacing because you believe this really happened. I just think it's, you take that out, you know, you watch this movie without that title card, you have a completely different experience.

1:08:26Griffin Newman:I think you're right. I think it does, right. It just sort of locks the audience in.

1:08:29David Sims:It's another read on the Mike Yanagata scene I love, Yanagata, sorry, that I love is that it's in there because it's the kind of thing that would be included in a movie based on a true story.

1:08:42Griffin Newman:We cut to her talking head and she's like, and then I got lunch with my friend Mike Yanagata and it was a little funny. It was a little weird

1:08:48David Sims:I would write that, but if it was part of the real story, I guess you'd need to figure out how to dramatize it.

1:08:56Griffin Newman:So, but the first meeting in Fargo, I'm trying to think what to highlight, apart from just, like, the clash between Buscemi's kind of, like, I'm not going to debate Jerry, you know, energy, and Jerry's aw shucksness. Yeah, you're scrolling through the movie here. The one interesting thing about this interaction is it's the only window we get into Gare at all beyond this guy's a stone-cold psychopath. Because Gare leans in and he says, oh, your fucking wife, you know. Like, Gare displays some sort of, like, moral judgment on Jerry for this scheme. He's like, you want us to kidnap your own wife?

1:09:35It's just fascinating because for the rest of the movie, he shows nothing.

1:09:39David Sims:Right. He otherwise seems like the single most scrupulous character. because like even Buscemi sort of goes like, why the fuck would you do this? You know, as much as I think he prides himself on being a guy who can override any sense of morality, Buscemi clearly has checks and balances in his head and he feels fear from doing the wrong thing, even if he's like, it's worth it for money. Versus Gare just kind of seems to be like... Well, Gare's like a psychopath. He's a true psychopath and he almost feels like a spiritual demonic force.

1:10:17Griffin Newman:Right. But yeah, I guess Carl is a petty criminal is basically right. Like that is his general like prides himself on.

1:10:25David Sims:I can like do. Right. He's certainly not.

1:10:27Griffin Newman:They're not being hired. No funny stuff. There's a no rough stuff type of deal.

1:10:30David Sims:Yeah.

1:10:32Griffin Newman:And but yes, the the the idea, of course, is that they're going to get 80 grand and split it. Right. we do not realize until way later in the movie obviously that the real scheme is that there's a million dollars that the criminals will just get a tiny amount of. I feel like when you learn that there's something so brazen about it that you're kind of like God that's so smart of Jerry and you're also like that's so stupid of Jerry. It's way too much money. Like it's crazy. You know what would have happened if you know when his father-in-law was listening in on the call with Carl if Carl had said bring the 80 grand.

1:11:08his father-in-law would have known in that moment Jerry did all of this why am I putting a million bucks in this briefcase when the kidnappers are asking for 80

1:11:17Griffin Newman:and of course there's so many tension points in this movie if people would just kind of be like yeah fine I'll pay you a little extra for the car or whatever that's the magic of the Coen's obviously

1:11:28David Sims:also to your point you're like does he get away with it if it's a million and they're doing a split there's no way they get away with it in any circumstance No, you're right. Like, there's no way. You're right.

1:11:39Griffin Newman:There is no way that the wife gets returned. Yes. And they escape with the money and everyone's like, oh, well, that was weird, but who cares? But it is right. I mean, look, the core mistake is the plot. And then Jerry's like, oh, and I bought a parking lot, by the way. Here's a question. Yeah. Let's say that they had killed Gene and yet Jerry got the million dollars. Right. Okay. So, like, everything proceeds the same way. It's just that Jerry escapes with the money. He gets the money. He gets the money and he doesn't even have to flee. Like, he gets the money. They killed Gene. He never gets her back.

1:12:09The police are like, we're so sorry your wife was murdered, but he's a million dollars richer. Do you think Jerry considers that kind of a win? I mean, is he also a psychopath? I think he is. He is, or he's at least— He could live the rest of his life with this terrible secret and not be so bothered by it. He's a bad person.

1:12:25Griffin Newman:And I'm not out here to call, you know, to cast judgment. But the moment where, what's the—Stan Grossman is like, how's your son? and he goes, oh, oh. Like, and you see it dawn on him, like, right, my son's probably pretty fucked up about this. He's so shattering because you're just like, so there's like a hint of like humanity left to Jerry. He doesn't love that this is happening.

1:12:50David Sims:That's why I don't think he's like at his core. Jerry doesn't want his wife to die. I don't think he likes her like that much. But the fact that it has never occurred to him in the weeks and weeks of putting this together, like, oh, Scotty might be upset. It's not until that moment that somebody else brings it to his attention. I think reinforces that this dude would be fine if Gene died. He just doesn't care. I think it's less that he's innately a sociopath and more that like his innate insecurity and his lack of confidence in how he is perceived relative to like masculinity in the world has completely curdled his brain.

1:13:22David Sims:Like it now overrides every other decision he makes. It's all through the calculus of like, how do I impress people? How do I look like a guy that people have to treat with respect?

1:13:34Griffin Newman:um yeah i he's whatever he obviously prioritizes his own security as well over yeah his wife's life right he wants to pay off his debts i guess there's a version of him that's

1:13:48David Sims:like if he owns a parking lot and people feel sympathy for him because his wife died and he can get away with it yeah that's a win that's an additional win yeah i mean let's say he never did this scheme, let's say he was just on the up and up. He made some bad investments. He owes $750 ,000 or something like that. And he, he files bankruptcy. Yeah. His father-in-law would probably pressure Gene to divorce him and he would be a divorced dad and he'd live at the Jolly Roger, you know, down, down, down the road. That, that to him is so unacceptable. Yes. That, that this is the action he takes. Yeah.

1:14:21David Sims:Yeah. It's fascinating. I have no doubt that Gene's father would try to even more than before convince her to leave him. And yet, as much as we're saying that she doesn't seem to like really love him, they make a choice to not have her be some nagging rolling pin wife. I think she would stick with him. I think she'd stick with him. His father-in-law would have to bail him out financially and it would just be this toxic, poisonous wedge in that relationship. But I think that is his ultimate fear. That's his ultimate fear. This man will hate me more than he does. And the ultimate admitting of defeat of this guy owns me because the only reason I'm still in the picture is because he bailed me out.

1:15:01David Sims:Yeah. I couldn't prove myself. Right.

1:15:05Griffin Newman:How they ended up together is also a bit of a mystery. Like, how did Jerry ever charm anyone in a way? But she does seem like, she's not like a total idiot, but she seems like a bit of a kind of like sweet, simple kind of gal. I mean, she's laughing at the most vapid morning clock. Yes. The daytime TV. You know, she's not reading a Russian novel on the couch. Right. You know? God bless. And that's the sort of like the classic Coen's thing where some people are like, are they being patronizing? Like, are they rude? You know, do they hate these characters or whatever? And I'm like, no, they love these characters, I feel like.

1:15:40Griffin Newman:They even kind of love Jerry. Like, Jerry's demise at the end of the movie, not to, you know, where he's getting dragged. There's this, like, twinge of sympathy for the guy. You know what I mean? where you're just like, God. I totally disagree. He's such a loser. Like, even, he can't even go out, like, strong, you know what I mean? Like, them, like, dragging him in his underwear. You're absolutely like, yeah, he deserves it. Yes. Like, I'm not like you're like, oh, poor Jerry. But you're just like, God, he's just always a fucking loser, isn't he? But the fact that they make him do these guttural grunts like the Crepes Pop lady.

1:16:12Griffin Newman:It's so crazy. I mean, God bless Macy. He, like, goes for it. Yeah.

1:16:16David Sims:Yeah. Do you know what I find fascinating? I don't. It has basically been confirmed, I think, at this point that William H. Macy was the original voice of Marlon in Finding Nemo. And he was like too much of a loser. Yes. And they like test screened it with like story reels before they started animation. And it was like the audience hates this guy.

1:16:37Griffin Newman:Yeah.

1:16:38David Sims:And he was like, I don't know. I thought this like made sense with the sort of like William H. Macy worrying persona. And he was like, I got to get someone who's like comedian first and foremost and can like own this as a joke. but it makes sense because there's something so contemptible about him in this mode of like pathetic that even when it's funny it does make your skin crawl and think about him in boogie nights it's like when he puts the gun in his mouth it's like we're all kind of like oh man

1:17:05Griffin Newman:what a loser you know he really was on such a run of losers right between this and the pta movies I know and Magnolia oh my god he's the worst in Magnolia Magnolia he's amazing in it obviously but that is a character where like compare like Jerry is tough is a tough hang uh huh he's a big loser uh huh but uh fucking um quiz kid Donnie Smith you're just like I can't look at this guy original trivia team name by the way that's true uh Circa C.C. Pirate came up with that name but like you can't look at him

1:17:37David Sims:you're just like the scene with him and Henry Gibson at the bar tragic is like one of the most skin crawling things I've ever seen That's basically what Stanton said is like he was too good of an actor that you couldn't laugh at this guy being an erotic fish dad. You're just like, oh, my God, this guy's fucked up. And it's funny to watch him in other movies where he's he's not a loser. You know, like I watched I watched Jurassic Park three last week and he's and he's you know, he's not like a hero. But but they've jettisoned all pathetic drip out of out of his character in that. And it's like, what are we doing with this guy?

1:18:08Like, what is what is happening?

1:18:10David Sims:Okay, now I need to sidebar here for a second because David and I are both Jurassic Park 3 defenders, but you're making me... And I am too. I enjoyed the movie very much. You're making me realize something for the first time. Is that movie missing the spice of Macy going full Jerry Lundergard?

1:18:25Griffin Newman:I think it would be better. There's a dash of it.

1:18:27David Sims:There's a dash, but if that character totally unravels and becomes that pathetic... But then you need him to get eaten by dinosaurs.

1:18:34Griffin Newman:You'd be like, dinosaurs, eat this man. But I still think we're solving problems here. But what's interesting, Pleasant Phil's in the middle of this run as well. Which he's so good. He's excellent in that movie. And he's also playing kind of a loser, but a much more lovable character. Very sympathetic character. He can give sympathetic performances. Yeah. He's amazing in Air Force One.

1:18:54David Sims:Wild Hog's one of the most sympathetic performances in history.

1:18:57Griffin Newman:What does he do in Wild Hog?

1:18:57David Sims:He's good at computers. He fucks Marissa Tomei.

1:19:00Griffin Newman:Great.

1:19:01David Sims:Yeah.

1:19:01Griffin Newman:In Air Force One, it was you. Yeah. Have you seen Air Force One? I have. But like, it's not. It's not one of my. I've seen it like 400 times. He says it was you. It's incredible.

1:19:10David Sims:But also, let's remember his most emotionally rounded and resonant performance. Seabiscuit? Yeah. Guy with all the things that make noises. He's got a little triangle. Remember when they nominated him for a Golden Globe for that performance? Everyone's like, yeah, why not? Who gives a shit?

1:19:27Griffin Newman:So, all right. So Jerry hires these guys. And then, you know, we're like, we don't mean March for half an hour. So we're just in this immediately unraveling situation, right? Right. Like how quickly do we get I guess we we go from that to sort of set up of like Jerry and his family. I think the beginning.

1:19:45David Sims:Dork Jerry. Right. Right. And then it cuts back to the two of them in the car. And I feel like that's the immediate unraveling is these guys can't get along. Right. This is not a team. By his silence. Yes. That he keeps going like it's fine. I cannot talk. Let's not talk all day. And then he won't stop talking about not talking. it's it's it's so so brilliant it's so good total fucking silence where's pancakes house i too would

1:20:13Griffin Newman:get sick of pancakes i get sick of pancakes usually in the middle of a pancake order yeah and the smoking with the windows up i mean that right there the move storm air does yeah where when in the murder in the the you know the the crime that i don't know how to describe it the triple homicide scene where he like rolls the window down he just kind of like lets the cigarette out of his hand. I think about it all the time. It's so graceful. It's so good. He's kind of like rocking in this sort of like strange kind of like autistic Right. Him going into like full psycho mode. It's beautiful. Woo! It's terrifying.

1:20:48Griffin Newman:Yes it is. He is so scary.

1:20:49David Sims:But even there's something so resonant in the like hard cut to the two of them fucking in parallel beds in a shitty motel and seemingly getting like no joy from it. There is not even this sort of like kink to look at us.

1:21:09Griffin Newman:We're doing this together.

1:21:10David Sims:Right. It almost feels like they're annoyed that they just can't afford separate rooms. Right. Would you do that?

1:21:19Griffin Newman:It's so crazy that they do that. Never in a million years. I guess these guys have essentially kind of just met, right? Yeah. Is that the idea? Yeah, basically. Yeah. But they don't know each other well. No, they were like basically set up on a blind crime page. Is it kind of the hardened, these guys have probably both done time thing of like, I'm going to fucking, I need to fuck someone. I've taken a shit in front of someone in a jail cell. I don't care. Like, it's just kind of like, right. I'm just going to. Yeah. Let me ride. Privacy has been beat out of them. Right. Right. But they're getting no juice from it.

1:21:54Griffin Newman:Like, there's no spark to it. Yeah. To the sex scene is the cut to them then watching TV. Yes. That just rocks. Yes. And The Tonight Show, it's just such a funny thing. Like, are they going to laugh once on this episode of The Tonight Show? Right, right.

1:22:07David Sims:It's so good. The way that the Doughboys have turned pulling an autofocus into a term. Within a group of friends, pulling a Fargo is a joking term we throw around a lot.

1:22:21Griffin Newman:The old double bed hotel room.

1:22:24David Sims:Just kind of like dispassionately have parallel sex and then watch TV together.

1:22:28Griffin Newman:It's great that we meet the girls after and they are just so, like, chill and silly.

1:22:33David Sims:They're so funny. I mean, it makes so much sense that they wrote this for Buscemi. But the repetition of just kind of funny looking.

1:22:40Griffin Newman:Just kind of funny. Just kind of generally funny looking.

1:22:42David Sims:Even more funny looking than most. How would you describe him?

1:22:45Griffin Newman:Because I would go on the teeth first. I'd be like, he's got kind of prominent teeth. But I guess that's kind of like a weird thing to say about someone. But they're right. I would start with the eyes. I'd be like, no, he's got kind of like. He's got these like steep Buscemi eyes.

1:22:56David Sims:But this is why. You can't shake. This is why just kind of funny looking is the right thing, because you're like, you ask 10 different people and they each would start with a different thing about him. His lips are French in a way. Right. He's got so many different things that on any other person would be their only defining physical characteristic. So true. And you just combine it and you're just like, I don't know, he's just kind of funny looking. Just kind of funny looking.

1:23:22Griffin Newman:Yeah. Well, yeah, what else happens? Why are you pointing at me? Because you had Fargo up. Oh, yeah. this movie is so perfectly constructed I'm actually okay so it's them in the car

1:23:31David Sims:then it goes to the first negotiation of the true code yeah the true code scene which is right I think just the depths of how pathetic he is early right and then the real failure of that scene is when he admits that the true code is already on it even though they didn't ask for it so he's probably going to have to take the financial hit of not charging them for the thing that he thought he could talk them into like there are all these little indignities that keep stacking up in his life what I love about that scene is he makes this like totally phony pouty like I'm a bad boy kind of expression at the end you know when the guy's pulling his checkbook out and he's looking down Jerry's looking down and he's like you know mock guilty it's really but he knows this was always the plan it's great yeah yeah yeah right like everyone sees through him at all times they put that on at the factory I don't know what you guys are talking about yeah

1:24:25Griffin Newman:um uh okay so he's a big loser yes and then and then it's the the kidnapping you pretty quickly

1:24:32David Sims:from there have the establishment of this previous scam he's running with the license plates right

1:24:39Griffin Newman:um where he's what borrowing money on cars that don't exist right that's what he's doing why wouldn't he just send in serial numbers of cars that are on the lot i think i'm too dumb to understand i'm possibly too dumb too but i mean the reason is probably because like that is a crime and would be easily discovered, I guess.

1:24:55David Sims:Right.

1:24:56Griffin Newman:I don't really know, though.

1:24:57David Sims:I mean, it speaks to his confidence in something he does not have figured out in that the best I can make sense of his plan is just he thinks he can stall them forever and or get the cash.

1:25:10Griffin Newman:I think it's more of a,

1:25:11David Sims:I'll find the money somehow. And then return the money back to them eventually when he's like, well, a year from now, I'll have$2 million. And then I go, oh, sorry. because they are it seems like they've already fronted him the money because the guy says or I'll have to recall the loan they've given him the money I got the money the money came through

1:25:31Griffin Newman:and the assumption I feel like is that money is gone right you got the money and it went wherever it's all going right yeah

1:25:38David Sims:that money went to pay off debts that are still not made whole

1:25:43Griffin Newman:right even though it was 300 plus is he a gambler like what is it I'm dying to know That's my question. Ben, do you have a take? Yeah, I think he's such a bad car salesman that he has not been bringing in any money for his family. Yeah. Because it's a commission-based job. So he's just like, he would be fired, though. No, well, but he's, it's his father-in-law's dealership, so he's kind of getting away with being one of the worst car salesmen of all time. And I really do think he's just like trapped and he's bad at this job. And that is basically how he has been generating money for his family.

1:26:26David Sims:But I also think he keeps like metaphorically going all in at the poker table, right? Yeah. Like he's sort of like one smart move and I get myself like ahead. Sure. And it truly could be like this guy went to a casino one weekend and lost$10 ,000 and over 15 years it has spiraled to$2 million. Right. Like, I think it's just that he keeps doubling down on. I'll get the money back. This is risky, but if it works, then I'm. He does. He does have some avenue of association with the criminal underworld. He knows Shep Proudfoot. I mean, I think there's a chance that he maybe rubbed elbows with some unsavory grifter guy who convinced him that he had this, you know, this get rich quick scheme.

1:27:08And it was not all the way in the up and up. And, you know, Shep Proudfoot was probably adjacent.

1:27:14David Sims:Yeah. Things went south. And now Shep is his lifeline to maybe a new scheme to get out of it. That is a really good take because this is the exact kind of guy who gets scammed and never recovers from it. Yeah. He is a rube. Right. He's a rube, and that is a thing that would only emasculate him further on top of then having the financial anxiety of how do I make myself whole again. Because I just don't think that he could have been bad at his job to the point where he secretly owes over half a million dollars, you know, at his father-in-law's dealership. It's like if you suck that much at selling cars, like, that's going to work.

1:27:47That's going to—that's on the books, you know?

1:27:50Griffin Newman:And I know the reason is I should stop nitpicking and who cares. But does he ever think about kidnapping the father-in-law? Who's going to pay? Stan Grossman? Maybe Grossman will do it. Maybe. Maybe Grossman will free up the funds. But yeah, no, I don't know. It's just kind of like... Can you imagine trying to kidnap Clint Eastwood? It's just like, it's not going to work. It's just so callous, obviously, to be like, well, my final, final, final bargaining chip is I'm married to someone whose dad is rich, so I guess I can ransom her.

1:28:23David Sims:I just think it's so great that when this movie starts out, you're literally opening with him proposing, you know, or confirming the deal to kidnap her and get the ransom money. We're already so deep into this scam he's been running with the cars.

1:28:39Griffin Newman:Right, which is great. I mean, this is exactly where we need to be. We need to be seven-eighths of the way into his doom for him to be doing this.

1:28:47David Sims:And he's preparing to pitch the parking lot thing. This guy's got three things that we know of going on at the same time. Yeah, we're in act two on page one.

1:28:55Griffin Newman:Right. You know? Yes. That's great. Yes. Just to, I'm sorry to just, but like, because it's connected. Right. This scene, I find this scene where he's revealed essentially to be kind of right. In meaning, you know, where they're like, this is a good deal. The financials of this do kind of make sense. Right. To be so satisfying to watch. I watch it a lot because it's the perfect Coen's thing where like there's this little note of triumph for him where like this guy who clearly resents him for being such a loser and marrying his daughter is like yeah I mean this is a fine deal and he's like great so give me the money and they're like

1:29:28David Sims:why would we do that we're not a bank the most devastating moment in a certain way is you're like he could have gotten away from this

1:29:35Griffin Newman:if he just went to a fucking bank not that any bank

1:29:38David Sims:would give him money he's probably like up to his ears in debt but it's almost the most painful moment in the movie when they go well I hope if you're not interested in pursuing the seal, you're cool with us just doing it without you. Like, dude, you just lost your finder's fee.

1:29:52Griffin Newman:I think they're going to give him the finder's fee. I do think they, well, maybe not. I don't know. They're pretty ruthless. In that scene is he has nowhere to sit, you know? He's like, he has to sit on the edge of a chair facing the other way. It's just like he is always at odds.

1:30:06David Sims:But he's like deep in one scam. He's setting up a crime and he's got a plan for like a legit business.

1:30:13Griffin Newman:He does. He has a way out, but he could never get a million dollars essentially to get out.

1:30:19David Sims:No. And by the way, like if he's smart, what he does is take the finder's fee from it and then go like, let me find more things like this. Let me build a relationship.

1:30:29Griffin Newman:He's not that smart. I also think if he's smart, I also think if he bought the parking lot, he would screw it up. Of course he would. He wouldn't like do it right. Yeah. Oh, he's just destined. Yeah. He would mess it up. Absolutely. He was always going to be face down in a bed with two cops and knees in his back. In his boxers, yes. I want to say about the deal with the parking lot. He mentions if he makes it happen that he wants to actually pull out on the ransom scheme. Right. Because he goes to Shep to try and cancel it. He thinks he's going to be okay. So he set it up in a way where he's like, my backup, even though his wife has already been kidnapped.

1:31:08Right.

1:31:08Griffin Newman:Well, no, he doesn't know that yet.

1:31:10David Sims:Oh, okay.

1:31:10Griffin Newman:He goes home to her being kidnapped.

1:31:12David Sims:It is so stupid of him to engage these two guys before he takes his shot at the parking lot. Like, that should be the backup option he only goes to. I think he's in a lot of trouble. But he's so desperate. Yes. He's so desperate.

1:31:26Griffin Newman:Well, parking lots kind of feature in this movie a lot. The most, I feel like the best shot in the movie is him trudging to his car. Yeah. And it's like this lone car in the lot surrounded by snow or whatever, right? And then like the scene with Carl having to pay four bucks for the long-term parking. Right. And then later Carl shooting the other parking guy. Like parking actually pisses everyone off in this movie. Yes. And does seem to be this kind of like inescapable money drain in Minneapolis.

1:31:57David Sims:But that's also the moment that is so iconic where he fucking loses it trying to scrape the ice. Yes. Off the windshield. It's so good. I'm having a flash to that. Dumb fucking hat with the flaps. Parking lot, Larry. Yeah. Look at that parking lot. Yeah. Oh, that's true. That's right. Yeah. So then I think he goes home. Before we skip the scene where he goes home and his dad is having dinner with them, which is such a great moment where he goes, dad's joining us for supper. And she's like, yeah. And you can just see he's just like, fuck another miserable night.

1:32:26Griffin Newman:Yeah. And the kid just wants to go to McDonald's. They aren't drinking milkshakes. I'll tell you that. Yeah. What does he think they are doing? The kid does not seem like that bad a boy. No, no, no. Yeah, they're not smoking weed at McDonald's. Yeah, like maybe they're like bumming one cigarette and like passing it around or something. I don't know what they're doing.

1:32:44David Sims:Not drinking milkshakes is so funny, though. Yeah.

1:32:49Griffin Newman:So, yeah. So then the kidnapping. Yeah. Which, look, I can quote this movie. I'm sure you're like this, Zach. It's like, I can quote this movie visually. You know what I mean? And I remember shot transitions and just framing and stuff from this movie. I've seen it so many times. And I'm not as good at that. When Carlton Walker walks up the porch, it is one of the greatest terrifying and funny. I mean, it is so them. It just works on every level. And he kind of presses his face to peer through the glare at her. And she's just watching dumbly, uncomprehending of what this person is doing. And it's not until the glass breaks that she realizes, like, danger, idiot.

1:33:31David Sims:it get up you know it's so good yeah just her knitting watching the soap opera starting to clock him and taking her time to react just kind of being like it can't be what i think it is yeah right did you guys notice that it's bruce campbell in the soap opera yes of course and it is an actual soap opera that bruce campbell did that they licensed oh is that true i was wondering i was like this feels so authentic the way this the audio sounds and like the dial it just feels so real it was one of his earliest action jobs that i think they they did almost in in the same way

1:34:04Griffin Newman:that raimi likes to torture bruce campbell now intolerable cruelty has a soap opera thing too right but where they like made a fake soap opera there's something yes yes right where there's something on tv i can't remember yeah uh anyway um it's amazing in fargo how many characters are watching television at all times or trying to watch television it is a massive theme in this movie it's which i think lends itself to the opening title cards you know i think there is something about our addiction to these stories and to this kind of being fed information through a screen that it has to be intentional on this like escapism thing of these people who are living

1:34:42David Sims:these very quiet controlled lives and dream of right it's also so cold and this movie is so cold

1:34:49Griffin Newman:right and anytime someone's outside you're just like go inside right and like and you and the movie's communicating that to you like it's hard to be outside yeah and like you want to just be warm and you just want to be in marge's bed watching like tv and talking about stamps and like anytime anyone's outside it just looks so miserable and it looks miserable in the cabin they've got the the oven open and you can see gene's breath coming through the hood that cabin is tough yeah uh it's not that's not the nicest white bear lake i want to i mean minnesota has a lot of lakes right famously 10 ,000 or so um so the kidnapping anything we want to say about the

1:35:26David Sims:kidnapping apart from the I mean for how controlled and perfect it is their ability to stage incredibly clumsy things without it feeling like hyper precise like slapstick comedy like part of what's upsetting about the kidnapping and also unnerving about it is that it feels like sort of so mundane and messy in all of their movements, but also the shot sequencing and there being sort of weird amounts of space. There not being weirdly a sense of urgency to it as much as there was an urgency in her trying to escape it. And I think she thinks these guys are there to just fucking kill her. They're being so slow and deliberate in their moves.

1:36:11David Sims:Yeah, yep, yep. Yeah, Peter Stormare having no concern for anything. You know, he pulls the mask off immediately when he gets bit. You know, his concern shifts from like, this felony I'm in progress on to I need to get ointment on my bit hand. I need unguent. Yeah. What the hell is unguent?

1:36:30Griffin Newman:Unguent is just a name for like a greasy substance, essentially, an ointment. You know, like it's so funny that he uses that word. It's a very old-fashioned word. I don't know if the Coenists just think it's funny or if it's supposed to speak to his kind of like, you know second language I need on Gwent

1:36:56David

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1:38:41Griffin Newman:So she gets kidnapped. It's the cars. the chase, right? Or is there anything in between the kidnapping and the murder? The thing in between is what I just mentioned, the Jerry essentially losing the lot.

1:38:57David Sims:But then also him coming home with the two bags of groceries and having this sort of processing, walking in. Right, being like, right, it happened. It happened. And then rehearsing the phone call, which is so good. So incredible. I think that's one of...

1:39:13Griffin Newman:Speaking to you, sociopathic.

1:39:16David Sims:I think that was a Macy idea I saw. Oh, really? That he was like, this is a fun beat. Right. And yes, the moment where he's practicing it, you're like, this guy's gotten the performance pretty close. Yeah. And then the hard switch when he gets to the receptionist. It's great. It's so good. I also love the framing of that shot. We're not in the kitchen with him. We're like kind of in the hallway and we've got the banister in the foreground. And it's just like, it's voyeuristic. You know, we're just watching. I don't know. I love that choice. It's like the fucking taxi driver payphone scene. Yeah.

1:39:50David Sims:Where you're like, you feel like you shouldn't be seeing this. Get the camera away from this. You're seeing something uncomfortable and embarrassing and too intimate. Yeah. And then that's one of the cuts to black. I think fades to black is after Yael Holt. And then it goes to. And then we go to the night driving, right? Well, then it cuts right to Paul Bunyan at night and the night drive. Yeah. Amazing. And this is like the biggest set piece of the whole movie, arguably, you know, and and it's so, so well done. So we've gotten this argument in the past about the the Francis McDormand winning for lead.

1:40:33David Sims:William H. Macy being nominated for supporting. Sure. The actual affront is the Macy being nominated for supporting.

1:40:39Griffin Newman:That's not McDormand is clearly the lead. It's just Macy is probably, I mean, I have him in lead. He's the lead. I can sort of hear an argument for like everyone else is kind of supporting, but he's in a lot of the movie.

1:40:52David Sims:He got, I believe he has 30 seconds more screen time than she does.

1:40:55Griffin Newman:I always question the way that people fucking stopwatch these things. Those stats are a little weird.

1:41:00David Sims:But they at least have basically equal screen time, if not slightly more towards him. It obviously becomes her story. Yeah. And she's the one who's sort of driving the plot. But I also think one of the things that's so interesting with the Coens is that very few of their movies are really driven by one character. They are almost always plotted either thematically or by an event. Like the event is sort of the thing you're following and then you're attaching yourself to different characters in the arc. I can think of a lot of counterexamples to that. Lebowski is obviously character driven. Inside Llewyn Davis.

1:41:36David Sims:Llewyn Davis is. True Grit, I would say, is with Maddie. Serious Man is. a lot of their crime movies, I guess, in particular. Yeah.

1:41:46Griffin Newman:But what's your point about Macy? Like that he should have been nominated in lead? Where'd they...

1:41:51David Sims:No, it's just interesting that we're... It was a cynical calculation of like he's more likely he's not famous. Let's do it. It was more that I'm just clocking we're getting to the final shootout, which means, or what you described as the big set piece.

1:42:03Griffin Newman:The indie spirits put him in lead. Right. Basically, no one else even, the Globes didn't nominate him. And SAG put him in supporting. Yes. Yeah. So, yeah. I mean, I think his nomination was like a mild and welcome surprise at the Oscars. Because he was not a very well-known actor at that point. But obviously, he's so good in the film. But it does cost Buscemi his maybe like most obvious chance at an Oscar knob before Ghost World, which he's also stopped for.

1:42:30David Sims:I just think he remains one of the most egregious, like, never nominated guys. Take it up with the Academy. I write them a letter every day. Okay. And they tell me to stop. but yeah no it's just fascinating to think about how deeply we've gotten to the movie and that we're getting you're like at the big set piece and she has still not been introduced true that it is like 30 minutes on the dot after the big blow up yeah this scene of like once again like clumsiness like Buscemi trying to pull the move of flashing the money in the wallet so stupid so unnecessary

1:43:06Griffin Newman:It took me so long to clock that that's what's happening. Yes. And then the way the cop, like, flips the wallet shut. But, yeah, I mean, but I think Buscemi just thinks that's the only way. But Buscemi's stupid. The stupidest thing he does, we don't see, which is that he brags to the guy in the bar that he killed people. Right. And, like, the way the guy describes what he was doing, like, you're like, I can exactly picture Carl, like, popping off and essentially being like, well, there's. there's a trail of dead people behind me that you don't want to fuck with me.

1:43:39David Sims:But a stupid calculation he makes is the moment where the cop says, what's this? If Buscemi is savvy in any way, he goes, oh, sorry. Right. Sure. Like he acts like it was truly an accident rather than like he quadruples down. He keeps repeating. What if we just settle it here in Brainerd? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And the guy is just not having it at all. and he's making it worse and worse. Right. Yeah. I think there's no way out of it.

1:44:08Griffin Newman:They have a woman in the backseat. Yes. Like if she was in the trunk, do they get away with it? Do they basically apologize? I mean, he was still going to get in trouble because he's still going to try and bribe the stupid fucking cop and that cop was obviously not going to have it and he was going to get, someone was going to get shot no matter what, whether she's in the trunk or in the backseat.

1:44:27David Sims:This is what we keep circling back to. There are so many unforced errors in this movie and yet the characters are making errors on top of each other where even if you're like, well, if they had just done this one thing differently, that's not accounting for the five things they did around it. Yeah. I mean, if he just put the tags on the car, everything would have been different. Yes. And that's the first thing he should have done. Yeah. It's crazy. He should have put the tags on the car.

1:44:50Griffin Newman:So they killed the cop. The thing I think about the most is the little spurt of blood. Mm-hmm. It's so great. Onto Buscemi's face. Yes. Yeah. Just the little, like, pathetic fountain. Yeah. Like it's more than nothing, but it's not like an insane geyser. It's just this like, I just think about it all the time. I also always think about the way the cop falls out of frame. The way you see him for one second, his head covered in blood, but literally one second. Yes. Yeah, he falls back on his knees away from the camera.

1:45:20David Sims:So it's sickening. We talk about in the Blood Simple episode, but they said so much of their like genesis of that movie is feeling like deaths in movies are always too clean. like even when they're bloody and messy they're bloody and messy in the sort of like operatic way and they're like death is like really clumsy and it like takes longer and you just have these sort of like odd embarrassments right yeah but yes how quickly they just get themselves into like a perfect knot of well now there's a dead cop now there's a guy driving by there's an eyewitness right there's like no way out of this without just more murder and insanity.

1:46:06They're kind of doing what William H. Macy's doing. They just keep digging deeper and deeper and deeper into trouble and compounding.

1:46:12Griffin Newman:And essentially it's sort of like we'll figure it out mentality. But yeah, the people see them, the shot of the guy's face is so good. He looks like Louis Anderson. I always think about Louis Anderson. He does kind of look like Louis Anderson. He's got a big orange coat on or something. He's got a bright coat on. Yes. and it's just I mean just again just imagine being in the theater in 96 and like the shot and the cut to black yeah and just that like wave of like laughter and craziness that must have gone through the audience like what the fuck

1:46:46David Sims:just happened I feel like we talked about this and David and I being a little younger than you Zach that like for both of us we think our first exposure to the Coens was watching Billy Crystal edit himself in the into the Oscar montage this year, into Fargo. And like sitting in a room of grownups laughing at it and both being like, what is this movie? It's got like broad comedy tone and it's about murder. And I have a very similar memory of this movie playing in theaters in New York for so long and constantly walking by when my parents would walk me to school, a theater that had the poster up and being so confused by the needlepoint poster and being like, what is this movie that has this sort of like cutesy depiction?

1:47:32David Sims:What he did was... Of crime? He's the other cop. He's Lou, right? He's Lou. Yeah. Talking to, in that first scene, in the morning sickness.

1:47:43Griffin Newman:And then he's talking to Buscemi in the car. Okay. They're like talking to each other. Yeah.

1:47:49David Sims:He's playing pretty fast and loose with the narrative there.

1:47:51Griffin Newman:Yeah.

1:47:51David Sims:Yeah.

1:47:51Griffin Newman:And then it's back to him talking to Jerry Maguire and, you know, there's some great stuff here.

1:47:56David Sims:All of that to say, like, our exposure to it was first the pre-digested version of, like, we all know how funny Fargo is. Versus I wish I could have had the purity of being able to see this in theaters, like, opening weekend and being like, what the fuck is this? No one has ever done something like this before. Well, it's a good movie. What happens after? No, I basically Right, the body lying in the snow Goes to We go to Marge We go to Marge We go to her getting the call in bed The camera Prowler needs a jump Yes Prowler needs a jump But the ducks, the painting, supplies The camera tracking over to them in bed And her being woken up

1:48:42Griffin Newman:The most, like, you know Incredible introduction to a character First this Yeah But then her the breakfast, you know, you gotta have a breakfast. The breakfast is important. I gotta go. Him being like, gotta have a breakfast is another acknowledgement of her pregnancy. Yeah. Like, I don't think he's just hitting that so hard because he's her loving husband. He's like, no, you need to eat like you're pregnant.

1:49:01David Sims:But he knows if he said it that way, she would push back

1:49:04Griffin Newman:on the idea that she's vulnerable. Um, so, but then like, yeah, and then just, I'm not sure I 100 % agree with you on your police work there, Lou, where you're like, he's such an idiot, but she would never chew him out. She's being so nice about it. You know, just her whole approach. Her whole matter of factness about the homicide, this execution style deal, like the way she's talking about this horrible thing we just witnessed.

1:49:26David Sims:But that's what defi - Like her sense of politeness does not override her doing the correct or responsible thing, right? She's not going to defer to this guy out of being polite. She finds the most polite way to push back and explain her own theory. I also just love the sort of like just get breakfast out of the way vibes, but also them having breakfast in like pitch black darkness. That feeling of like when you are awake too early doing a thing. Right. As if you're like eating before like a red eye flight. Yeah. Yeah. I also like that, you know, she gets there. She hasn't seen the dead trooper.

1:50:05Right. She just sees the two bodies there in the by the upside down car. and she's good. She already can like put together exactly what happened and she's right. You know, we got a we got a shooting over there and then we got a drive-by and they come here we get the execution type deal. Yeah, it's great.

1:50:21Griffin Newman:But then she has the little and looks like a perfectly nice guy. Right? She has the little side where she's like she's acknowledging that this is a tragic situation. Yeah. She's not blasé exactly. She's just even-handed or like she's just kind of like even tempered.

1:50:40David Sims:But it's like what she's getting at with the last line, her last lines of the movie, which is just like, what could possibly have been worth all this?

1:50:47Griffin Newman:Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And this is, yeah, in a way, like they should be, I mean, this is a cop killing. Like, this is crazy. It's crazy. Yeah, and it's odd that she didn't have a relationship with the dead cop. Like, that is never acknowledged. You know, like, this is a tiny town. This is a small police community. you know an officer is gunned down in cold blood and they don't spend any time talking about that

1:51:13David Sims:although i guess it's basically he's from a neighboring precinct and got shot down in the sort of like liminal space between the two states cities yeah they might explain it um

1:51:24Griffin Newman:but uh he wrote dlr and that means dealer plates um and you know well i guess she finds the call girls first right the first thing they find where she's like well that's a good lead is is that like two guys checked into a motel with call girls in a Sierra in a burnt umber Sierra yeah a Sierra is an Oldsmobile I had to check I don't actually I didn't actually know what it was they say Sierra so many times it was my first car your first car was a Sierra was a cutlass Sierra Oldsmobile is a hand down from my grandpa burnt umber but it was not umber it was a dark blue how are the blue interior. How are the tags?

1:52:07Griffin Newman:Yeah. Regular license plate. Okay, good. Thank God. Well, then that's the answer, man. Jesus. Okay. How'd it drive? It was a fantastic car. Okay. I loved it and unfortunately got into an accident and it got totaled. Oh, that is too bad. It drove great. It was a V6. It had some power to it. And it just was so purposely designed for like an old man in this really lovely way. It had lights built into the rearview mirror so you could look at your map. Oh, very nice. Or it was also helpful for rolling a blunt in the car at night. That Sierra saw some blunts. Yes, it did. Yeah. She interviews the ladies.

1:52:55Well, no.

1:52:56David Sims:Before that, you cut to Jerry meeting with the father-in-law. And Stan Grossman loves Stan Grossman. strategizing the ransom pay off. Stan Garstman's a great character. So good. That guy's clearly a smart guy. The smartest guy in the movie. Right. In a way, that's exactly who Jerry wants to be. Right. Like, even more than he wants to be hard-pressed now, like, that's the guy he aspires to be, who's just, like, solid as a rock, responsible, has the respect of other men. He doesn't need to be, like, the king of shit mountain. No. But that's what they bring up, like, how's Scotty doing? Right. And he's like, right, Scotty.

1:53:37Griffin Newman:Yeah, I'll talk to him.

1:53:38David Sims:And I think he is. The scene where he tries

1:53:40Griffin Newman:to talk to him is so miserable.

1:53:41David Sims:I think he's doing a fairly good job of keeping a brave face on it. And yet, every single thing that Scotty's bringing up is clearly something that he hasn't considered until this moment. Where, like, Scotty's first question is, what do you think they're doing with her right now? Oh, God. And his response is, nothing. These guys, they just want money, right? Right. Which is him, like, knowing These guys are just waiting to be paid off. Right. But yes, the more Scotty digs into it, the more he's like, you don't know these fucking guys. They could be doing anything to her. But I don't get the sense that that is really occurring to him.

1:54:15He doesn't seem to be that alarmed. He's more alarmed that Scotty could, could, you know, let things slip to his wife's friends. You know what I mean?

1:54:25Griffin Newman:Yes, that's true. He actually is trying to maintain OPSEC. He also thinks that like,

1:54:30David Sims:Scotty is worrying over nothing. I think he believes what he's saying, which is stupid.

1:54:35Griffin Newman:Right.

1:54:35David Sims:Jerry always thinks he's in control of every situation that he's clearly lost total control of. He's like, these three people are going to sit in a room together watching TV until they get the check and they'll bring her back safely.

1:54:45Griffin Newman:The only time he ever says anything is in the first scene where he says, I'm in a bit of trouble. Right. And then he won't go into it. But like those calls where the guys on the phone being like, well, if you don't send me these numbers, I'm going to. He's just like, yeah, a real shirt. Yeah. Yeah. I'll fax it over. You know, like, obviously you can tell he's stressed out.

1:55:02David Sims:He never says, like, God, what the fuck am I going to do? My favorite moment is when he goes, like, I sent them in the mail. They should be arriving. And the guy goes, that may be so, but I'm letting you know. I'm out of patience. If I don't receive them by tomorrow, I'm filing charges. Like, even if they're in transit and they'll arrive two days later, your luck has run out. Your time has run out. And his response to it is still so contained.

1:55:27Griffin Newman:Sure, sure, sure, sure.

1:55:28David Sims:That is a moment where you'd expect. them to give him another sort of like ice scraper meltdown?

1:55:34Griffin Newman:Well, do a damn lock count. That's him melting down. No, but he does melt down after that, Griffin, because then we cut to that wide shot through the window and he grabs his keyboard and slams it on the desk. Yes, he does. He does break.

1:55:46David Sims:You're right. But he stays calm on the phone. Yes, yes. Right. He's still trying to confidence his way through it. Yeah. Right. So then, right. It's Norm comes to bring her lunch. You know, there was a scene that they filmed that they didn't put in the movie of Norm ice fishing. And they cut it out. Interesting. Or so I have been told. I don't know if that's true or not. I don't know why they would shoot it. I think it probably makes sense that we don't watch it.

1:56:16Griffin Newman:They do say, like, I thought you were going up ice fishing at Mill Lake or whatever. Like, yeah. And obviously he needs his night crawlers. and that does Norm is like the salt of the fucking earth and everyone does seem to respect the hell out of this guy and then like the touch that he paints is just like the perfect final touch to this character of like he's got a sensitive like artist side

1:56:38David Sims:you know what I love too when they're talking about I forget the name but the competition of the other person who's in the running for the stamp yeah

1:56:46Griffin Newman:I forget his name

1:56:47David Sims:they don't shit talk them and even Marge is like well he's good he's talented but you're more talented. Right. You're better than them. They're good, but you're better than them. You're right. It's the circle back to they're good, but you're better. She doesn't want to put the other person down. She just believes in him so deeply. And yet this notion that it's like he comes and eats lunch with her every day. Yeah. Yeah. In the office. He knows everybody in the building. Yeah.

1:57:15Griffin Newman:Which does sort of speak to maybe he used to work there. I don't know. Sure. Again, it doesn't really matter. all of their scenes are welcome seasoning for her character as well obviously.

1:57:26David Sims:And that's when Luke comes in with the lead of the two women. Right. She talks to the ladies and they're so funny. One of the two who has no other...

1:57:33Griffin Newman:Wasn't circumcised?

1:57:33David Sims:Yes. I think it's that one who has no other screen credits was basically a dialect coach on this movie. Right. That makes sense. The one on the left? It's gotta be the one on the left. Yes. I think it was like a local theater actress but she was the one. I don't know if they hired her to do this first and then cast her the role or vice versa, but she said, like, in particular, McDormand credits her. Larissa Cockernut. With cracking the voice. Incredible name.

1:57:57Griffin Newman:Yes. And Melissa Peterman, who is the other one, is like a, you know, has been in a zillion things. She was on Young Sheldon for a zillion years. Hey. Nice work if you can get it. She's a main cast member. Yeah. Oh, no, she's recurring. I take it back. Well, huge difference. It's an interesting thing, these two who are, you know, I presume sex workers because, you know, Yes. At least part-time. That's a safe assumption. But they have a completely different attitude. These women seem untraumatized and like this all in all seems like a good experience. Yeah, they don't seem to think they're like in trouble for like, you know, patronizing these men or anything like that.

1:58:36David Sims:The third woman is unquestionably a sex worker. And she is definitely like, does not love this. You find this line of work interesting and she's like, the fuck are you talking about? Right. She's over the job. Every other time I watch this, I oscillate back and forth and thinking, are these two women sex workers or not?

1:58:53Griffin Newman:I think they are because he knows a place they can get laid or whatever. They're kind of like they're girls who at least are like, you know, whatever. The bartender knows some gals that might be interested.

1:59:04David Sims:They're so blase about everything.

1:59:06Griffin Newman:Right.

1:59:07David Sims:There is like a lack of like, it's not just that they're not worn down by the thing in the way that the third woman is, but they also just don't kind of seem canny about anything. like they just feel like they just go out and they do what they want to do. I love when the one is like go bears. She's talking about her high school.

1:59:25Griffin Newman:Go bears. Yeah. She rocks. Yeah. We also see them arrive at the lake house and Jeannie running around with the hood over her head. Yeah. Hands tied behind her back. This is the scene where Carl it really does show his hand that he is also a psychopath. You know Gare's not laughing. Carl thinks this is the funniest shit in the world. I mean that is just actual cruelty that he's displaying.

1:59:48David Sims:Here's the thing I think the Coens are about.

1:59:50Griffin Newman:I think Garrett doesn't find anything funny. No. Like, his brain is, like, kind of, like, there's just, like, he's a lizard. Right. There's nothing reading in there. That's why Carl cannot make conversation with him. Right. Like, he is capable of having sex. Yeah. So he sort of, like, has some, like, animalistic function. He also doesn't seem to enjoy it

2:00:10David Sims:even as much as Buscemi does. He's, like, dead. This is why it's so interesting when he cares. He seems offended that Jerry wants to kidnap his own wife. It's just, that's interesting. Well, I want to circle back to this because I'm thinking about you calling that out. And I'm like, is he offended as much as he's just kind of intrigued by that being an interesting human behavior? You know, he clearly disapproves. There's a value judgment on it. But I'm also like the only thing that activates him is like what he is perceiving as a level of cruelty that he seems unfamiliar with, if that makes sense.

2:00:48David Sims:Like this guy is desensitized to violence. And yet this sort of alarms him as just like, that's fucked up. He's like, what is the world coming to? Right. Everything else he's like numb to. And that's sort of just like he cannot ignore. Right. This is like his Tommy Lee Jones and no country sort of like conundrum. where he's like, I don't even know if I belong in this world. I think it's also like one of the things that the Coen brothers are as good at as anyone else is in almost every scene, every character is ostensibly sort of focused primarily on something other than their main like textual objective in the scene, if that makes sense.

2:01:27Griffin Newman:Right.

2:01:27David Sims:Like I think they're really smart about like constructing environments for really interesting behavioral performances. Right. where even when Lou comes in with the lead, Marge is clearly like, you know, on her game. Yeah. Seizing the opportunity. But also her priority is, I got to finish this lunch. Yeah, I'm eating these French fries. She needs her Arby's. Right. And the same with like them watching TV while Jerry's wife is running around. John Carroll Lynch in some interviews said that the only direction he really remembers the Coens giving him was in one of the scenes maybe it's this one he was paying too much attention to what Lou and Marge were saying

2:02:09Griffin Newman:uh huh

2:02:09David Sims:and uh Joel came out to him and said like you don't care mmm just finish your meal right I love that you're not ignoring this but like this doesn't matter to you right yeah the guy's shoveling his his front side his front uh driveway when the when the cop's interviewing him about the interaction at the bar with Carl you know it's like that's his focus right now that is a perfect example to me of a scene where when I am watching it I'm like, this guy is the best guy in the movie. For these three minutes, he's transfixing.

2:02:38Griffin Newman:And of course, the most important thing in that movie is these guys who are wearing fucking spacesuits. Yes. Being like, it's getting colder. Like, it's going to be colder tomorrow. They have the weather combo with like, oh yeah, there's a front coming in.

2:02:53David Sims:I'm like, guys, it looks like it's minus 40 degrees right now. You never get a clear look at his face. He looks like fucking Kenny McCormick. He is so naturalistic that it almost feels like they like hidden camera an actual citizen. This guy I dug in a little bit is like a Minnesota theater legend who started like the most reputable theater company. Oh, nice. But I think his only other one, one other film credit, but I think was sort of the activation point for a lot of the local actors they hired in the film and just kills this one scene. He kills it. Yeah. So I called it in. Like his story, it's like he's giving this like valuable, like he's like a witness.

2:03:33It's really a piece of information. But I love that. It cracks the whole case. And he gets through it.

2:03:37Griffin Newman:He's like, So I call him. The guy's like, Yeah, well, it's probably nothing anyway. I guess it'll be cold here soon in this fucking frozen hole we live in. It's almost presented as boring, kind of. Yeah. Like a boring story.

2:03:49David Sims:But like when the two women at the bar won't stop harping on how funny looking Buscemi was.

2:03:54Griffin Newman:Yeah.

2:03:55David Sims:It's like, well, but they also had like a very intimate experience.

2:03:58Griffin Newman:But this guy's also like, Yeah, he's just kind of fucking funny.

2:04:00David Sims:I mean, what they're trying to say is like,

2:04:02Griffin Newman:he looks like a little weasel.

2:04:03David Sims:Like, what do you want from him? How do you define this guy other than that he is unusual? If he walked into a room, you would immediately clock. And I want to be clear, I think Steve Buscemi's hot.

2:04:11Griffin Newman:He has been styled to look like a weasel. It's just that you can get that guy to, you know, to a weasel

2:04:17David Sims:faster than some actors. Buscemi, I cite a lot as one of the prime examples of, like, people who are cast to be ugly in movies, if you see them in person, you're like, they are so striking.

2:04:28Griffin Newman:Striking and good-looking guys.

2:04:29David Sims:Because anyone who registers on camera is like innately kind of captivating looking, even if they're unconventional.

2:04:35Griffin Newman:But if you see him in, what's that movie he made when he was really young? Tree's Lounge? Well, no, he's amazing in Tree's Lounge, but he's obviously playing kind of a rough customer in Tree's. That guy's had a couple drinks over the years. I don't know if you noticed that about him.

2:04:48David Sims:But like New York Stories, he's like...

2:04:50Griffin Newman:New York Stories is an example, but fuck what's In the Soup, the movie with Seymour Cassell. Great little movie. He's so cute in that movie.

2:04:58David Sims:He's adorable. Yes. But it's right. What they're really speaking to more than anything is like, look, he doesn't look like anyone else. He is unique. Right. And also this guy's energy is just weird. It's what you said. He's just like there's something unsettling and weaselly about this guy.

2:05:14Griffin Newman:yes uh ben you keep coming in and out of the the zoom and i'm always jump scares me it's so funny um no one's watching the zoom obviously so uh it's just me that cares about this so we're gonna cut that out of the podcast because who cares um keep it and double it it's just me that

2:05:28David Sims:cares about this so we're gonna cut that out of the podcast because who cares um also if you could edit in a little bit of ice clinking it feels like it's been a while maybe it's another good

2:05:37Griffin Newman:moment to place it in no thankfully it's melted after this is mike yanagita do we have more on

2:05:43David Sims:mike yanagita yeah i got an hour to do well we're not going to do an hour but but do we have more on mike yanagita that we want to see i mean steve park at this point in time was most known for do the right thing and in living color yes right um he's great in do the right thing yes he talks about after this he did a guest arc on friends uh experienced an incident of like absurd racism behind the scenes, wrote an op-ed letter about it that I think was published in the LA Times in 1997.

2:06:14Griffin Newman:Sure.

2:06:15David Sims:And says that he was like soft blackballed from the industry for a number of years. And you look and like the credits dry up for a while. Yeah. Which is absurd because you watch this and you're like, this guy should have become the single most in-demand character actor for the next 10 years. Yeah, he's so funny. He's so good. And instead, he's kind of on ice and it takes until the mid-2010s that people start being like, why does no one fucking hire that guy? Like it's part of the persistence of Fargo is I think when people rewatch it they're just like no one's using this dude? And obviously the Coens use him again really well in Serious Man.

2:06:49David Sims:They do, yes. Right. And then the final segment of French... I'm embarrassed to say that I am just now putting together that that's him. That's him. He's the dad of the student. Yes. I did not realize that. And also we were... I thought you were making like a weird joke when you said he... when you quoted that line from Serious Man. Yeah, okay. Gotcha. He's like the secret sauce of the final segment of French Dispatch, too. Your favorite movie. A movie I like a tremendous amount, but he's like transcendently good in it. Right. Yeah. It's weird to me that he didn't realize that he was funny in that scene and that when Ethan told him that that scene slayed, he was like, but it's so sad.

2:07:24I think he's

2:07:25Griffin Newman:in that character, right? He's like, I'm playing this like truly sad guy who's, well, I guess the question is to Stephen. He's explosively crying saying you're such a super lady. Like, that's funny. You know? Yeah. No, I'm not with you on that. You're such a super lady. Well, I guess my question is, does Steven Park know he's lying? I guess he probably was told, like, this is not true. That's a great question. I don't actually know. I think he's trying to play the guy

2:07:55David Sims:with a level of psychological realism, even though it's in a weird tone and the language is obviously so specific and there's no way to say that without sounding a little goofy. I think he's trying to avoid being condescending to the character.

2:08:08Griffin Newman:Yeah, he's great. I mean, he does a great job.

2:08:10David Sims:In his mind, he's like, I'm not trying to make this scene funny. But of course, the sadder he plays it, the funnier it gets. Like it is that you always talk about the fucking interview you have with Christoph Waltz promoting Big Eyes. Where you were like, so you play a bad guy in this movie.

2:08:28Griffin Newman:I might disagree with you on that point. And I was like, Jesus, I have 20 minutes with you. We're going to fight about whether you're fucking villain characters. You're like a contentious standoff, but you're like... No, the problem was that 10 minutes in, he was like, yeah, you're probably right. And I was like, well, then why'd you fight me on it, Waltz? He was like a cat playing with a mouse. Yeah. I was just this tired little guy, you know, with a little notepad, and he was clearly just like, I'm going to fuck with this guy. Yeah. Anyway.

2:08:53David Sims:I just think, right, like, he is a guy who is innately funny. Stephen Park. Right, and like has a comedy background and knows how to be funny. And they probably cast him for that reason where they're like, if this guy plays it straight, it will still be funny. Versus hiring a dramatic actor who might just make it uncomfortable. It's a scene I sometimes struggle to watch.

2:09:12Griffin Newman:It is so uncomfortable. Yes. It is sad. The way she reacts to, not before he's crying, to him moving next to her.

2:09:21David Sims:That is the roughest moment in the scene for me. It's like, it gets so much worse. And then it gets even worse in retrospect when you find out he was lying. And yet the absolute pit of despair.

2:09:34Griffin Newman:The flimsiness of him being like, how about I sit next to you? And her being like, oh, I, you know, wouldn't, you know, I have to turn to look at you.

2:09:41David Sims:Just immediately a bad move. She's going out of her way to try to find the most polite reasoning for why she's putting a wall down. The thing, too, that would like with finding out later, it's so insane that he is dressed up and wore a suit. There's something about that to me that like stuck out.

2:10:00Griffin Newman:But she's dressed up. Like they are. I feel like they are kind of like, well, you want to dress up for the Radisson. Yeah, I guess it's the Radisson. But he is living with his mom. So it's like tough to imagine him like at home. Like putting on a suit. Putting on the suit. Yeah. It makes it so much more sad. How old is Marge? Is she like 32? Like, how old is she? Like, she's not that old. I'm guessing 36 is the number that I come to. in my head, but I don't know. That might be too old. Well, you know what's really interesting, though, is in the phone call with her friend where she's recounting the encounter with Mike, her friend describes that he was really pestering her, meaning the woman that Mike said was his wife.

2:10:43Yes, yes. And it's like, that is, back in 1987, they didn't call it what it was. Right, yeah, he was being fucked up. He was stalking her. And they used their Minnesota nice, yeah, really bothering her, really pestering her. And it's like, dude, what we're seeing is the first step of Mike's stalking Marge. Possibly getting kind of obsessed with her.

2:11:02David Sims:And the fact that he's undeterred by the fact that he knows she's married to a guy he also knows and is pregnant. Seven months pregnant. Right. Yeah. Right. Like it is the hyper fixation. There's a whole nother movie here. I mean, there's a whole fascinating movie. He calls her because she was on TV.

2:11:19Griffin Newman:Right. Like he calls her because he saw her on television. Yeah. Yes. Which is also so great. Well, how the heck are you? It's like such an insanely obnoxious question to ask at 1045 at night. Yes.

2:11:30David Sims:And also when you're in the middle of like fucking investigating a triple homicide. So 96, Frances McDormand was 39.

2:11:39Griffin Newman:Right. Right. So when she made the movie, she's about 38 or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. That track. She's literally late 30s. Right.

2:11:45David Sims:About 20 years since they've all graduated. Right.

2:11:49Griffin Newman:So, but yes, it's not that meeting Mike makes her kind of reevaluate that first interview. she did with Jerry. It's hearing on the phone that he lied to her that does seem to spur her to go back to Jerry and kind of press him a little harder. And I think... And Jerry's a bad liar. Mike's a better liar than Jerry. Mike is the worst liar. Yeah. And it's also interesting, she does go back and say, how do you know? But she doesn't seem to clock that he's a liar until he just completely disintegrates in that scene. He disintegrates under very little pressure. She wasn't like, I think this guy lied to me.

2:12:25You know what I mean?

2:12:26Griffin Newman:Yes. She's initially basically just like, well, maybe the car went missing and you didn't clock it, essentially.

2:12:31David Sims:So after the Mike scene on this watch, I went back, rewound, and rewatched the first Jerry Marge scene. Because I was like, I now want to see what she wasn't picking up on with him. And I think it's less that Mike makes her realize he could have been lying, and more that Mike kind of reminds her that everyone in this culture is putting such a performative layer on type of all of their social interactions. Right. Yeah. That she's just like, well, everyone's lying all the time. Yeah. I need to like look deeper into their personality and the circumstances of their life. Because even when she goes in to see Jerry for the second time, she clocks the photo of his wife on the desk.

2:13:11David Sims:She's just like not really considering all the angles of who he is as a guy versus what he's saying to her. And she's obviously not seeing him as a suspect the first time. She's just like, there are so many disparate elements here and I'm just trying to trace them. Where the fuck do the cars come from? Right? Yeah. And in the first scene, he's not a good liar. But the only thing he really fucks up is he takes like 10 seconds to answer one question. There's the moment I'm trying to remember what the question is where she asks him something and he just locks in eye contact with her kind of pleasantly smiling for like 10 seconds.

2:13:47It's because she says Brainerd. Yes. and he knows because he's already had the conversation with Carl who said three people in Brainerd. Right. Blood has been shed, Jerry. Blood has been shed.

2:13:57David Sims:And he's doing the math of trying to decide how much do I pretend I know? Yeah. How much can I get away with? How dumb can I play here?

2:14:06Griffin Newman:Yeah.

2:14:06David Sims:And even so, she kind of takes him on face value because I think, once again, she lives in a world where everyone is kind of putting on airs all the time. No, I hear you. They're always sort of covering their real feelings and masking them. Yeah. The second time, he so immediately drops the cover. And he's so fucked anyway at that point.

2:14:24Griffin Newman:Like, he is, like, right.

2:14:25David Sims:And she doesn't know how deeply he's involved in all of this, but knows he's covering up something and it might help her get to it. That the second she starts pushing him and he starts being like, I don't appreciate your rudeness. That's what really triggers her in my mind is her being like, if this guy is dropping the politeness this quickly, he's ten times guiltier than I thought. Okay, now here's the thing.

2:14:48Griffin Newman:Yes. She, she, yes, she busts William H. Macy wide open and he runs away. He's fleeing the interview. Right. He thinks he can just drive away. And that means that, yes. You can. He's not under arrest. No, he's not, but he is fleeing the interview. But that's also,

2:15:03David Sims:that immediately makes him look even a hundred times more guilty.

2:15:06Griffin Newman:that doesn't get her to the cabin. And there's things that happen in this movie that we don't see. They kill his wife. Yeah. We don't, ah, she starts screaming, you know. Yeah. Like that's, that's the end of that. We never see it. We don't know how that transpired. In re-watching it this time, this was the first time, I can't believe I've seen this movie countless times. It was the first time I noticed the torrent of blood on the stove. It's awful.

2:15:29David Sims:Yeah.

2:15:30Griffin Newman:And like, everything disintegrates off screen, essentially. You know what I mean? Much like the move they pull in No Country. Yeah. Of just like, you can figure it out.

2:15:38David Sims:Well, it's, I feel like they talk about this, but their process of writing together, they're like, if the idea of writing a scene doesn't seem exciting to us, then you just don't need to do it in the movie. Then what's the next scene that's more interesting and how do we get whatever information we need across in a different context?

2:15:55Griffin Newman:She doesn't find them because of Macy. She finds them because she essentially is like, well, before I leave, I'll just kind of drive around those lakes that that guy mentioned from the bar. Right. And she just fucking drives around and then she sees a burnt sienna. And that's it. Right, and you have that moment. It's the most sort of caveman detective work.

2:16:15David Sims:Is it Lou over the radio who's like, Margie, be careful. And you do feel that sense of just like, is she really just gonna fucking pull up to the driveway? This is the moment where her pregnancy like becomes a story point for real. It's like, you are the last person that should go like storming into this remote place with murderers, you know? Because he says like, we'll send a couple cars over and she's just like, I can't blow this.

2:16:41Griffin Newman:Yes, and she does a great job. and she fucking shoots him in the leg and like gets him I mean she does crush him and that moment she shoots him it's amazing the framing is the same as when that man in the red jersey goes running into the tundra away from the upside down car yes and now it's Carl it's the daytime version running at the same angle

2:17:00David Sims:the exact same movement and Carl goes for the kill shot and she does not she shoots him in the leg it's a skill shot she like nails it you see her take her time line it up fire one bullet She fires twice. Does she? She misses the first shot. Okay. She misses the first shot. But she basically hits him.

2:17:17Griffin Newman:It's pretty implausible that she hits him at all. She's like shooting with like a 29 revolver or something.

2:17:21David Sims:It's another thing that like belies that she is in fact. She's a little magical. But also that she's like fucking good. Yeah. You're like this is someone who's gone through like insane fucking firearm training. Has like spent time at a shooting range to nail that shot even in two. And also she's not trying to kill him. She's trying to incapacitate him which she does. She gets him. And then she, you know, off camera, goes out on the lake, cuffs him, brings this wounded man back to her car, takes him into custody and drives him into town. It's bad. Seven months pregnant. It's awesome. And we don't need to see any of that.

2:17:51And it's like, I just solved the murder of five people? Five? Six? Yes.

2:17:57Griffin Newman:Well, there are six people killed in the movie, five that she knows of. Right. So the five, the three, you know, the two bystanders and the state trooper, the poor guy at the parking garage that Buscemi shoots, Harvey Presnell, who Buscemi... And then the wife. Oh, so he's seven. Seven? Yeah. Seven. I forgot about the parking attendant. Everyone forgets about the poor parking attendant. Yeah. Who just was one parking attendant too many for Carl, I feel like. You know what I mean? Sure. Because, like, the thing with Carl, we didn't mention, of course, that, like, when they shoot each other, which rocks so much.

2:18:27Griffin Newman:Like, you know, open a fucking gate. You know, it's just him doing that. Where it's like, the guy could probably just open the gate. But clearly, like, the guy's like, huh? And Carl's, like, shooting him. It's the moment. I bet the guy said, like, buddy, are you okay? That's what got him shot.

2:18:41David Sims:It is the moment in every rewatch. Look at my fucking face. Where I get so... Elise Square! ...actively annoyed about Buscemi being robbed of the supporting actor nomination, because I'm just like, him being able to play peak Buscemi irritation, while also playing the, like, I cannot talk. I am bleeding out. And the way he enters the cabin, he's like, ah, get a load of me, right? It's so good. And the way he walks out, where he kicks the door open and then stumbles on the step as he's like going down into the yard. It's amazing. The indignity of him trying to get the paper towels to cover up, to stop the bleeding and having the weird scrap stuck to his face with the pattern on it.

2:19:24David Sims:But I'm like in that scene with Peter Stormare, I'm like, he just doesn't cheat at all in terms of how limited this guy's jaw would be at this moment. like how do you split a car you dummy right dummy and the feeling that like not only can this guy barely speak but the more he talks the more pain he's in and yet he's so annoyed he's gonna keep fucking monologuing and you see like his eyes going bloodshot as like the longer he's fucking getting to this philosophical argument that he deserves the car the more he's like going white

2:20:04Griffin Newman:with pain. Yes. No, it's wonderful. He never is. He's not even mad that he killed her. No. No. He doesn't care. He just wants the fucking car. He just wants the car. Right. You know what else we didn't talk about is at this point he's already buried the money and put the world's weakest little marker that is obviously not going to be there tomorrow. It'll be like covered with snow immediately.

2:20:26David Sims:Another horrible plan. Another just like poorly thought out. In the middle of nowhere. Right. Just snow. Why not drive like a block away from town, from the house. Put it next to like a tree. A tree, exactly. But to your point, even if he makes it out of the confrontation with Stormare ahead, gets the car and is on his way, what are the odds he finds that spot again? He's going to collapse. What are the odds that the money is still there? What are the odds he lives for another 12 hours? Right. Why does he even go to the cabin? Why doesn't he just take the million dollars and just peace out? That's actually an exceptionally, I guess he wants the car.

2:20:59Or maybe he doesn't want Stormare coming after him. He's like, I give this guy 40 grand and then I have one. I mean, I guess there's that. I doubt he thinks that way.

2:21:08David Sims:Do we think at that moment that he doesn't know that Stormare killed? He doesn't know. Right.

2:21:13Griffin Newman:Because he says what happened and he's like, ah, she started screaming.

2:21:16David Sims:So he's going back maybe to try to.

2:21:18Griffin Newman:I think Zach's right. He's kind of like, I do not want Stormare on my ass. That guy's scary. Yes. I'll give him the money and then I'll split. And then they haggle and you're like, stop haggling. Jesus Christ. Give him an extra 10 grand. Yeah.

2:21:38David?

2:21:39David Sims:Yes. Red alert. Uh-oh. There's been an outbreak. Biohazard. Of a new Patreon series. It's contagious. Oh, that's so true. It's been cooked up in the lab for your pleasure. From the fine folks at the Umbrella Corporation, we are covering Resident Evil. The film franchise.

2:22:03Griffin Newman:Yes. We've got the first franchise. Six movies. Yes. That beautiful second franchise. How many? Six? Seven? It's got the one movie. Oh, it's got the one. We'll be covering all of them on Patreon, doing commentaries on, yes, the Resident Evil, Apocalypse, Extinction, Afterlife, Retribution, the final chapter. Welcome to Raccoon City.

2:22:22David Sims:This is an exciting time. Zach Kregor, friend of the podcast, has a new Resident Evil coming out. and we thought this was a good opportunity to revisit the history of Resident Evil movies.

2:22:31Griffin Newman:Why not? Why not? Why can't we? Why can't we? We can. Check in for that August 1st and it's going to be running all the way through November 1st.

2:22:42David Sims:Followed by your March Madness winner, Dracula. Dr. Acula himself. That's so fun. So that's great. That's great. Thank you. Thank you so much.

2:22:58David Sims:Hey Chicago, class it up with Crocs. You know back to school is coming in fast. So why wait to find your new fave footwear? Step into a local Crocs store and step into your new look. Try it, style it, make it yours. Because the right pair doesn't just show up, it shows off. First day fits, handled. Walk out ready for whatever's next. Visit your nearest Crocs store today. Now, you said there's the moment where he leans in with sort of the shock at Jerry's cruelty in hiring them, right, when he realizes the plot. The only other moment where Stormare has a really big reaction to something and he underplays it is like when he clocks McDormand, she's been yelling.

2:23:47David Sims:He can't hear her over the wood chipper. Right. Then he feels her in the peripheral vision. He turns slowly and he looks to her like a small child who knows that they've just gotten in trouble. Right. He like plays that one moment with vulnerability where he kind of knows he can't beat this woman. Yes. And he knows he's caught.

2:24:06Griffin Newman:like you said yes

2:24:07David Sims:and he looks he looks scared and he also looks embarrassed yeah he looks embarrassed by everything he's done and that she's caught him in this moment not looking cool and he obviously throws the log at her yes he wants to get away but like he's got no chance he's walking into a lake it's like so apathetic at that point yeah it's the same as as again the parallels of Macy and these guys is the same they just bad decision compounded on top of bad decision and it ends with both of them just futilely running for where they don't know. You know, just get away.

2:24:42Griffin Newman:What's he going to do if he gets out that motel window? Right. Yeah. You're going to get caught somewhere else. It's wild. I don't have that interpretation, Griffin. I don't see his expression at the woodchipper as like shame and embarrassment. I see it as like, oh, there's another person here. You know, the lizard continues. But I do think that there is a moment where he shows a little inner life when he's watching the soap opera and the woman says, I'm pregnant. Yes, and he actually reacts. And he looks genuinely engaged and surprised. He is. And it is, you're right, it's the only moment he actually seems like to have a human understanding of emotions.

2:25:18I can't believe she's pregnant

2:25:20David Sims:if you didn't tell him. Even if he's not embarrassed, he is so unflappable in every other moment where he is confronted with a sense of violence.

2:25:29Griffin Newman:I mean, obviously the entire, again, I try to think of this entire audience being like, there's a foot in the wood chipper. Obviously, it became the butt of a million jokes.

2:25:38David Sims:Another thing where I knew watching this movie for the first time, you're getting to the iconic wood chipper versus that just being like, what the fuck?

2:25:44Griffin Newman:He says it in Monsters, Inc. I think about that all the time. He says it in Monsters, Inc. The Shemmy's character says, I'll feed you into a wood chipper to somebody. And Wood Chipper is part of Monsters, Inc.

2:25:53David Sims:I have it on my fucking desk, but this was the promotional novelty snow globe they made of the wood chipper. Oh, there it is. That came with the VHS when the movie was released. is the snow white or red okay so this is a reproduction of the vintage one the snow is white the vintage one the snow was red but they've all yellowed over time oh yeah sure yeah so that's why I got a newer one yeah I think there's some story I read I knew like of this like the sort of like meme-ified merchandise version of the wood chipper before I got to just see that scene hit out of nowhere

2:26:26Griffin Newman:it's so annoying that when I search for Fargo and IMDb the TV show comes up first well yeah this movie's based on the tv show oh god um i was trying to think there's some like uh only stormware knew how to work the wood chipper like the cohen couldn't understand how wood chippers worked or something like a bit he i can't remember what it was but um yeah uh you get her final monologue the final monologue and and then the the coda of him getting the stamp like you walk out of this movie really feeling kind of awesome yeah i think that is part of the magic well she's still you're sort of like there's something right with the world like it's speaking

2:27:02David Sims:in a folksy way in that final monologue but you can tell that she is like actually disturbed by what she's put together in her head the understanding of why did this many people have to die

2:27:14Griffin Newman:uh right right right but like i just feel like you're watching this movie and you're like like the darkness there is like a sort of some like resistance to the darkness you know what i mean like she's still here and there is something like comforting about like yeah like it's not all

2:27:31David Sims:evil to read too much into it but like the last scene is basically a metaphor for what you're saying right of norm being like they gave me the two cents stamp three three i'm sorry the three cent stamp and he's viewing it as this sort of like a second place or whatever and she's just like they're important when they raise the prices you need the three cent stamps right and it's sort of like, does it feel meaningless for someone like Marge to exist in a world where this many deaths are going to happen and you can't prevent evil? And it's like Marge is a three cent stamp. She is making like some small contribution to trying to like stop the ugliness of the world, even if she's not able to do it holistically because she's not.

2:28:10David Sims:Her optimism is intact. Yes. Right. Right. It has not curdled her soul. she is not like truly magical as much as the movie sometimes fear is close to framing her that way but she talks a lot about it like being really important to her that she pull it back from feeling like she is just this sort of like impossibly perfect comedic conceit but she's like right she is able to hold on to her soul live a rounded life and like ACAB but I watch this movie and I'm like this is what cops should be this is like the only positive prototype i've seen for like in a functional society what a cop would do kind of sure i guess so i don't know you're short of making robot cops

2:28:57Griffin Newman:obviously you have there's a cop in weapons right alden's playing a cop yeah excited he's not as uh not as nice he's not as no like yeah less nice yeah uh but i just know the weapons trailer you know that shot of alden it was just fun fun i i you know i like a fucked up cop you like a fucked up it's a good movie you know like that that's that's there's juice there a bad lieutenant sure sure tell me this lieutenant's bad what if there was a bad lieutenant um zach before we wrap to you know fargo's sort of legacy or whatever is there anything else we have not said about fargo we've been talking for a while i don't think we praised the score enough we phrased it but you know score's amazing but it's like operatic like for such a minor kind of like

2:29:43David Sims:story about dirt bad yes yes yes but you saying like there's the one moment where the score is sort of like playing up and joking with the movie itself uh in the break-in i think you said well i'm not saying that it's playful i'm saying it's as it's as playful as it gets in that scene and it's not that playful you know it's still kind of dark yeah i forgot to bring this up in the blood simple episode but there's a really good feature on the criterion disc of skip luce and carter burwell talking and how skip luce was the one who brought carter burwell in cohen's yes right recommended saying i think you could be a good film composer even though he had no previous ambition and brought him over to the cohen's and thought like you guys would match in tone and he said that they he was like i never thought about doing this for a living uh i i should try to study the art of film scoring.

2:30:37David Sims:And so he said the first movie he rented to try to watch through that prism, he was like, Hitchcock movies have good music. Let me rent some Hitchcock movies. Sure. And he watched The Birds and then only at the end of watching The Birds did he realize, oh, this movie has no conventional score.

2:30:53Griffin Newman:I picked a weird one, essentially. Right.

2:30:55David Sims:That like Herman worked with Hitchcock to intentionally build the soundscape of the sounds of The Birds and use it in a way similar to music, but that is a movie where Herman was like it's actually better I think if you don't have music on this and he said that like it is complete chance and sort of a mistake on his part that that was the first movie he chose to study when trying to get his head around film scoring and yet he thinks it was so instrumental to him to have the confidence to be like sometimes the move is to not do it sometimes the move is to like zag I shouldn't feel the compulsion to like literally underscore everything and accentuate what is there on the page.

2:31:35David Sims:And you're right. It's like sometimes the score feels apocalyptic, but the quietest sort of like piano version of the main theme is also so deeply sad. Yeah. It feels so tragic. Yeah.

2:31:49Griffin Newman:Yeah. Sure. It's a tragic movie. A lot of people die. Family gets destroyed. It's kind of it, I guess. Most of the other people who die, who cares? That parking guy heard he was a jerk. yeah

2:32:00David Sims:the indignity of you just saw me pull in here oh yeah you gotta pay him the four dollars

2:32:06Griffin Newman:but that feeling of like pay him the fucking four dollars this guy could talk to you about like someone to you yes and Carl can't let it go try not to stand out like that yes it's wild how bad he is yeah um the film was uh released in March

2:32:25David Sims:that is crazy it basically takes one year for it to win two major Oscars.

2:32:30Griffin Newman:But beyond that, it didn't premiere at a festival.

2:32:32David Sims:Yeah.

2:32:33Griffin Newman:Didn't, like, have any particularly kind of, like, complicated rollout or whatever.

2:32:37David Sims:Wins Best Director at Cannes two months after it was released in the United States.

2:32:41Griffin Newman:Yes. It played at Cannes. The jury gave the Palme d 'Or, Francis Ford Coppola was the chair, gave the Palme d 'Or to Secrets and Lies.

2:32:50David Sims:Uh-huh.

2:32:51Griffin Newman:Mike Lee's Secrets and Lies, but it won Best Director. And then, of course, it won two Oscars, Actress and Screenplay, and it was nominated for Best Picture. It got great reviews. It basically swept the Spirit Awards.

2:33:03David Sims:I think it won every category, maybe. And I think it's still their, yes,

2:33:12Griffin Newman:I think it's their most iconic film.

2:33:14David Sims:It's their core movie.

2:33:15Griffin Newman:Despite No Country, obviously, being the smash that it was, I do think you kind of can't argue with Fargo.

2:33:22David Sims:And in an interesting way, no country feels like a less humorous version of Fargo. They are so similar in so many regards. And even just this notion of like, is it even worth trying to fight the darkness of the world? Like, what difference is it going to make? Obviously, Chigurh becomes more mythological and the whole film has this more sober tone.

2:33:46Griffin Newman:I guess so, but Chigurh is this evil myth figure and Marge is kind of a good mythic figure in a weird way.

2:33:51David Sims:But I was thinking about like at this point in time, Fargo winning best screenplay is like very in line with what they would do in the 90s and the early 2000s of like the movie that is really cool that the Oscar goes for. But they're like, is this a little too weird to actually give it best picture? Right. The Pulp Fiction kind of thing. And now I think like this movie would win best picture. It is like. Completely different world. Nora just won best picture. Absolutely. Like you can't imagine them being like, well, it's too funny or it's too slight or any of those sorts of things. No country has a sense of like overriding grimness that I think finally made it feel like these guys have gotten serious enough.

2:34:32David Sims:We could give them the Oscar, which in the 90s, there was like a prejudice of like, is this all kind of a goof for them? Right. Despite like you kind of can't deny the screenplay for this movie. it is so like tightly plotted but also it is such a great example of every single line that every character has in this movie could only be said by that one character. Like every character's voice is so unique and distinct and serves a different function and is like so right there and vivid on the page.

2:35:05Griffin Newman:Still beat Jerry Maguire in Secrets and Lies. Like it was tough competition that year. Yes. That's sort of the indie Oscars that year. Right.

2:35:12David Sims:That's the other thing Billy keeps joking about, that Jerry Maguire was the only studio movie.

2:35:17Griffin Newman:March 8th, 1996, Griffin. This film's opening on limited 36 screens at number 16. What was the widest it ever went? Do you have that? I'm just curious. I gotta ask questions. It made$24 million domestic.

2:35:30David Sims:60 worldwide, I think?

2:35:32Griffin Newman:51. It went as wide as about 700 screens. Okay. It is not number one. Number one is a big hit comedy. It's new this week. March 96. Yep.

2:35:45David Sims:It's a big hit comedy. Made$180 million worldwide. Big hit. It's a big hit. Mm-hmm. With a comedy star. Primarily comedy star?

2:35:53Griffin Newman:It features a major comedy star and then a major serious actor.

2:35:58David Sims:Okay.

2:35:59Griffin Newman:And then another kind of up-and-coming comedy star, or I don't know how to describe it.

2:36:03David Sims:Mm-hmm. Okay. Serious actor, major comedy star, March 96. Who was the distributor of this picture?

2:36:10Griffin Newman:It is from MGM. It's from MGM.

2:36:12David Sims:It's not The Birdcage.

2:36:13Griffin Newman:It is The Birdcage.

2:36:14David Sims:It is The Birdcage? Wow. Okay. My God. This is The Birdcage.

2:36:17Griffin Newman:Yeah. Good movie. Yeah. Big hit. That's what's just crazy about it. That you're like, that thing was a blockbuster. Yeah.

2:36:24David Sims:And was like, not like a fucking political hot potato.

2:36:28Griffin Newman:Yeah.

2:36:29David Sims:That everyone just went to see it and like funny. Yeah. Yeah.

2:36:34Griffin Newman:Number two is also new this week. Less of a good movie.

2:36:38David Sims:Okay.

2:36:39Griffin Newman:A sequel.

2:36:40David Sims:Family film. It's a family film sequel. Yeah. It's not like, is it a two? Is it a deuce? It's a two. It's a two. It's not like Home Alone 2. Or, I'm sorry, Homeward Bound 2. It is Homeward Bound 2. I got it.

2:36:56Griffin Newman:Lost in San Francisco.

2:36:58David Sims:The debut film from director, do you know who directed Homeward Bound 2?

2:37:02Griffin Newman:No. Oh, wow. David Ellis.

2:37:05David Sims:David R. Ellis. Director of Final Destination 2. Final Destination 2. Two and four. I just rewatched all of them leading up to Bloodlines, which I just saw on Rip so fucking hard.

2:37:14Griffin Newman:What's so interesting about the Final Destination movies is that he made two, which I think is arguably the best.

2:37:21David Sims:Until Bloodlines, I thought it was the best.

2:37:22Griffin Newman:The Logs one. The Log scene is the greatest. It's not just the greatest Final Destination sequence, and I haven't seen Bloodlines. And you will love Bloodlines. I really think you will lose your mind. But that Log sequence, that's a masterpiece of anything.

2:37:35David Sims:It's just amazing. I was re-watching all of them, and I watched the log scene, and I was like, you know what? I'm not ready to move on from this, and I restarted the movie from the beginning and just watched the first 15 minutes again.

2:37:47Griffin Newman:The logs are so good. It is so incredibly well-staged. Yes, it is. And the sound design. All of it. But then here's my thing. He made, in my opinion, what is also inarguably the worst one, the fourth one, which is one of those things where you're like, I don't get why this is bad and the others are good because it's not diverting from the formula.

2:38:06David Sims:It is doing the same thing, and yet the tone of it is off.

2:38:10Griffin Newman:It's too nasty. All the characters kind of are just annoying.

2:38:13David Sims:I think as the kids would say, it just feels like the Timu version of Final Destination. Everything just feels kind of off. It's just funny that he made the best one and the worst one. Anyway. No, I was going down the rabbit hole of him and being like, man, Final Destination 2 is so fucking good. Where did this guy come from? And he has one of those. He died weirdly young in bizarre circumstances that were never explained. But he has one of these like studio journeyman careers where he was like a stunt performer. And then he was a stunt supervisor. And then he was a second unit director. Yeah.

2:38:47David Sims:And he just had like 15 years of experience in different positions. Then directed a fucking talking dog movie. Right. And then did Final Destination 2. My wife worked with him on Shark Night. Oh, yes. That was his last film. Yes. And she loved him. said he was just really great to work with.

2:39:04Griffin Newman:Was the star of Shark Night, was she not? She was. Shark Night 3D. Let's put some respect on that. When's our last Shark movie? Is it time for, I guess, The Meg 2. Yeah. I guess that wasn't that long. And there was a 47 Meters Down sequel? That seems less than it. I just feel like every couple years, some guy in Hollywood is like, and pulls a lever, and they're like, it's time for another Shark movie. You know what I mean? It is weird that it's just some guy in the bowels of Hollywood is like, oh, the Shark movie, it's time for another one.

2:39:31David Sims:Almost always works. Yeah. If your budget is low enough, anytime there's some shitty looking shark movie that comes out, like 47 meters down two, and you're just like, no one's going to see that. And then just quietly makes$45 million.

2:39:46Griffin Newman:Number three, The Box Office is a romantic drama with like big movie stars written by like big shots. Is it the Baldwin-McRyan one? No. Okay. That's, no, you're thinking of Andy Garcia, Meg Ryan. You're thinking of When a Man Lows a Woman. No, I'm not.

2:40:04David Sims:I'm thinking of Prelude to a Kiss.

2:40:06Griffin Newman:Oh, yeah, sure. No, it's not that.

2:40:07David Sims:It's even more prestige than that. Baldwin brings up Prelude to a Kiss so much on HBO Max's The Baldwins as if it was obviously his Fargo. Like, every once in a while, you end up on a perfect movie. And it's so clear that he read the script and thought it was going to be the one that lasted forever. had a great experience making it and it just didn't connect. Okay. I remember like, I saw it the year it came out. So I had to be real, you know, 16. I remember thinking, this is a great movie. I'm sure it's good. But it definitely has not lasted and he talks about it as if it was like the pinnacle of his leading man career.

2:40:44David Sims:Right. So yeah, prelude to A Kiss has been on my mind. Okay. It's more prestige-y than that.

2:40:49Griffin Newman:The actors involved are, you know, major sort of serious stars. They're getting a little older. Like,

2:40:56David Sims:well, Although the female lead is... It's not Frankie and Johnny.

2:40:58Griffin Newman:No.

2:41:00David Sims:But it's kind of... Is it in that zone? No, that's based on like a play that people liked. This is based on a book. Pacino and Pfeiffer's Prestigy. It's based on a book.

2:41:09Griffin Newman:Yeah, it's based on a book that I think was about... About a real person. And it's sort of like fictionalizing it. It is like a forgotten movie. It was nominated for an Oscar for its song. Because it has like an absolute banger of a like big love ballad.

2:41:26David Sims:It's not like dying young, but is it like that level of weeping?

2:41:29Griffin Newman:I don't even know. I don't know if you need to weep. I think people die. Who's the distributor? It's Disney. Touchstone.

2:41:37David Sims:It's a Touchstone 96. It's not Phenomenon, which we talked about as in that same year. And it's obviously based on true story.

2:41:45Griffin Newman:You might not know this movie. Like this movie is so forgotten. It's best known because the people who wrote it wrote a book about writing it and how hard it was to write it. Give me one of the stars. Robert Redford.

2:41:59David Sims:Oh, fuck.

2:42:00Griffin Newman:It's got a great title. It's got the kind of title a grown-up movie had in the 90s. It's not Havana. No. Fuck. It's... All right, the other star is Michelle Pfeiffer. Yep, yep, yep, yep. The movie was directed by John Avnett. Yes. And written by Joan Didion and John Gregory Dunn. Right.

2:42:19David Sims:Is it called like blank and blank? Yes. Fuck. I know it has like a clear Zach I assume you don't know the title of this

2:42:27Griffin Newman:Forgotten movie

2:42:28David Sims:Up Close and Personal

2:42:31Griffin Newman:Wow Robert Redford, Michelle Pfeiffer I knew it was Stalker Channing, Joe Mantegna James Rebhorn That's a movie about grown ups That is a grown up movie I don't know what it's about I just knew when I was a kid But it has the song Because You Loved Me Written by Diane Warren Performed by Celine Dion which does rock. Yeah. It's just like a Diane Warren torch song.

2:42:56David Sims:It is fascinating to look through as we're in 2025 year of our Lord. Big flop. Diane Warren losing her 30th Academy Award nomination or whatever. And I was advocating like give it to her this year. Let's just fucking get this over with. You basically look the first 10 nominations you're like all of these would have been respectable wins. Yeah, because you love me. And now she's overdue and every song she's written in the last 20 years has sucked ass. Stinks.

2:43:22Griffin Newman:Number four, The Box Office is a comedy that I'm sure Ben saw five to seven times on cable.

2:43:27David Sims:Okay. Now, Ben recently brought up to me in confidence that the most offended he has ever been by anything you've ever said on the podcast.

2:43:35Griffin Newman:I assumed he did or didn't watch some movie.

2:43:38David Sims:You said, Ben, that's definitely one of your big movies. In a cast box office game, one of the movies you described as you must have been a huge fan. I watched this one, sure. What was it? No, you made it out to be like, this defined your personality. Yeah, I doubt it did that. Malibu's most wanted. Hell yeah. Are you sure it didn't? In the last couple days. I was astounded. Ben was still griping about this to me, truly, five days ago. You know the Jamie Kennedy guy? I mean, we all got exed at one time. That's what I'm saying. Right? Yeah, America got exed. Like, a couple of times, sure, I got exed.

2:44:16David Sims:But I wouldn't say I'm a Jamie Kennedy fan. I don't care. You truly framed it as like, Ben, this must have been seismic for you. I am realizing my outfit is giving Malibu's best one. Ben, your shirt is not helping you out. It is not at all.

2:44:31Griffin Newman:You look like you're about to do some B-boy moves.

2:44:34David Sims:Well, that's more kicking it old school. That's a different Jamie Kennedy movie.

2:44:38Griffin Newman:This film is a broad comedy starring a sitcom star.

2:44:43David Sims:I just need to set up the stakes to see if Ben's going to be offended by this.

2:44:46Griffin Newman:No, he definitely isn't.

2:44:48David Sims:Let's see. it's a broad comedy starring a sitcom star from a director of movies that Ben loves other movies is it David S. Ward's Down Periscope? correct I believe that is one of your favorite movies yeah I like that movie I actually got it right no you're right

2:45:01Griffin Newman:he's got you you ever seen Down Periscope Zach? no that's the Kelsey Grammer submarine sex comedy I can visualize the cover yeah never seen it I personally we're

2:45:09David Sims:we're getting ready it will have happened by this point but to do a live show in New York about King Ralph one of Ben's favorite movies ever and the movie we've been threatening to discuss for about 10 straight years. Ben quietly realized that he is a David S. Ward tourist over the course of doing this podcast, that every movie David S. Ward, Academy Award winning screenwriter of The Sting, directed... Major League, King Ralph, Major League Two,

2:45:38Griffin Newman:Down Periscope, and then the program, the sports drama. I think you don't know. No, I'm not familiar. Every other one. James Caan. I gotta watch The Sting. Probably like the movie Yeah he's known for Yeah it's pretty good

2:45:50David Sims:Yeah you should watch it

2:45:51Griffin Newman:Number four at the box office Is a horror film The fourth

2:45:54David Sims:It's the fourth Number five at the box office

2:45:56Griffin Newman:Sorry

2:45:57David Sims:Number five This is the fourth Okay it's the fourth film In a series In 1996

2:46:04Griffin Newman:I think it's the last Theatrical release Is it Hellraiser? Hellraiser Four

2:46:10David Sims:Subtitled So three is Hell on Earth?

2:46:13Griffin Newman:Possibly

2:46:14David Sims:Yes Four is... It's not Inferno? No, that's five. Fuck. Four is... Do you know this, Zach? Are you, like... Are you a Hellraiser guy, Zach? I love the first one. The first one's incredible. Do you know this, Ben? I don't remember the title. I'm the only person who knows this. No, but I know... That's not true. This is somewhere in my brain.

2:46:36Griffin Newman:Yeah.

2:46:36David Sims:I think I'm gonna just make you do it. Is the word hell in the subtitle?

2:46:40Griffin Newman:No. The film is Hellraiser for... No. Fuck. That... There have not yet been one of those. The film is Hellraiser 4 Bloodline.

2:46:50David Sims:Well, like Final Destination. Yeah. Yeah.

2:46:54Griffin Newman:I'd never seen it. That's a film where the director got fired midway through by Miramax and was replaced and shit.

2:47:00David Sims:I think it's a complete disaster. Because the director was a Cenobite. That was the first time they tried to... Right. There was pushback of why aren't you letting Cenobites tell their own stories. Number six at the box office is Broken Arrow. I'm just going by that.

2:47:12Griffin Newman:Number seven is Rumble in the Bronx. It's going to be funny, and I think we'll stand the test of time. This is a fun, trashy time at the movies. Yes. You can go see Rumble in the Bronx and then Homeward Bound 2 and Hellraiser 4. This is just a bunch of garbage. Yeah. Happy Gilmore is still hanging around. Mr. Holland's Opus, the biggest piece of trash of all of these movies. Yeah.

2:47:28David Sims:No movie you've maybe attacked more in your life than Mr. Holland's Opus.

2:47:30Griffin Newman:Do you like Mr. Holland's Opus, Zach? I know you're not trying to. I haven't seen it since it came out, and I have very little recall of that movie. I don't remember liking it. The take is that the Opus sucks. It's seven hours of this guy abusing his students, his wife, just being an absolute crank. Yeah. And then he's like, well, you should finally do your opus. We all actually loved you the whole time. And they do his opus and it just lays an egg. It's the worst opus ever. Is that the story? Is that the opus sucks? The story is that he's always working on his opus and he's so frustrated by how he has to be a teacher.

2:48:01Griffin Newman:And he's like, God, I hate being a teacher. This sucks. And then at the end, the students are like, well, we loved you and we'll play your opus now.

2:48:08David Sims:and then they play shit. It is a classic example of a movie writing a check for itself to depict a fictional, profound work of art. And by the time you get to the performance, you're like, am I supposed to think this is good? And the movie frames it as an artistic trial. Yeah, but the movie's like, he did it! He was justified. Yeah.

2:48:28Griffin Newman:The worst. I mean, anyone else in that movie, and he got an Oscar nomination. People like the performance. He plays it so ornery. It's crazy. Number 10 bucks. Yeah, I know. This might shock you. On number 10 at the box office, Muppet Treasure Island. One of the greats. Great movie.

2:48:43David Sims:Much like Fargo, one of the few perfect films. Not a hair, not a single Muppet fur strand out of place in that film. Zach, we have kept you for far too long. Yeah.

2:48:53Griffin Newman:I've enjoyed every minute of it. Well, that's very nice of you to say. This is a perfect movie. It is. And I assume Weapons is similarly perfect. Yes. And it's in theaters now, and people should go see it. Yeah. I am truly excited for Weapons. Yeah. I wonder, yeah, I wonder how this, well, whatever. We'll see. Scratch that thought. Hope it's a good time. I hope so, too. Yeah, we're very excited. Zach, it's going to go great. Yeah. It's so stressful, you know. I'm very, I'm very sensitive. The looming release is a terrifying time. And you're about to enter, like, insane ramp up, like, press and all that shit.

2:49:29Yes, right.

2:49:29David Sims:You have to promote a movie and deal with the feedback and start your next movie, like, simultaneously. Yeah. Sorry. which is a comfort because I'll be working on the next one like I'll be in Europe when this comes out so I'll have to come back briefly for press but you know whatever happens with weapons I hope it goes well but no matter what I'll be able to go back and just you know bury myself in production which is you know

2:49:52Griffin Newman:right but don't drink any like weird vials that you find in any like labs or anything like that okay just make sure and like you know put all the gems in the correct gargoyle eyes and all that stuff Yeah.

2:50:05David Sims:Use the right color keys. I met you like a year ago and you had, I think, basically like locked your cut of weapons. But obviously there were still like post-production finishing stuff to do. And you knew the release date was a ways off. And I said, how do you feel about it? And you just said, I love it so much. And you said it not with like a level of arrogance. You were like, I have no idea how anyone's going to receive it. I don't know if the studio is going to like it. I don't know if it's going to play well. but I like I I was like that must be such a great feeling to like step back and look and be like man I made the thing I wanted to make and I'm existing in this state of purity before anyone else has to see yeah exactly and right now you know in that time I hadn't even done a test screening and it was just my thing and it was like I'm very very proud because the movie I had in my head when I was writing it is the movie that I see when I watch it I was able to do that and that's not always the case.

2:51:01So in that regard, I'm, you know, I'm totally in love with the movie. I really am. But now it's like, you know, you gotta send your kid to the first day of school and hope no one's mean to it. Is everyone gonna think your kid's a loser? Yeah. Yeah. It'll stop being my perfect, pure little thing, and it'll start being something that everyone's allowed to have a say on and all that, which is, you know, that's what I signed up for. That's okay. But it's... This is, right, the bill coming due. But it'll be great. Yeah. I like the title. Thanks. I feel like I get what it's going to be about. Do you?

2:51:39David Sims:Have you seen the trailer? No. Okay. But I'm not necessarily a trailer guy. I'm more of a, I just like to go in.

2:51:46Griffin Newman:Yeah. I love that. Go in blind. I too try to go in fairly blind. I have seen the trailer. But the trailer is pretty mysterious. Will you go to a theater late so you skip trailers? I mean, I have. I mean unfortunately I mean we were talking about this before we got started I you know

2:52:03David Sims:at times will be late and so I will miss them I can't relate but you're not a like you close your eyes and put your head down some people do that

2:52:15Griffin Newman:I watch them whatever

2:52:18David Sims:thank you for being here excited to see Weapons encourage everyone to go see Weapons in the future where this episode is coming out playing in theaters yeah we love that yeah uh and thank you all for listening please thank you guys very much for having me truly an honor privilege uh look forward to doing it again if you will continue to tolerate

2:52:37Griffin Newman:us absolutely yeah come back uh anytime and come to new york so we can you know do an irl you'll come on and talk about the uh the dangerous apartment from big um uh tune in next week for the big lebowski who's doing the big lebowski well we'll cut it out if he's not uh actually available, but as far as we know, Seth Rogen.

2:52:57David Sims:Yes. All right. Another future bet that everything has worked out. And if not, that will be bleeped out.

2:53:03Griffin Newman:We keep booking busy guys, including you. Yeah. And it's working out so far.

2:53:07David Sims:Yeah. We love our busy guys, don't we? And as always, all that just for a little bit of money.

2:53:21Blank Check with Griffin and David is hosted by Griffin Newman and David Sims. Our executive producer is me, Ben Hosley. Our creative producer is Marie Barty Salinas. And our associate producer is AJ McKeon. This show is mixed and edited by AJ McKeon and Alan Smithy. Research by J.J. Birch. Our theme song is by Lane Montgomery in the Great American Novel, with additional music by Alex Mitchell. Artwork by Joe Bowen, Ollie Moss, and Pat Reynolds. Our production assistant is Minnick. Special thanks to David Cho, Jordan Fish, and Nate Patterson for their production help. Head over to BlankCheckPod.com for links to all of the real nerdy shit.

2:53:59Join our Patreon, Blank Check Special Features, for exclusive franchise commentaries and bonus episodes. Follow us on social at BlankCheckPod. Subscribe to our weekly newsletter, Checkbook, on Substack. This podcast is created and produced by Blank Check Productions.

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