Frankenstein And The Craft Category Juggernauts

27:34I was like looking at it. I'm like, that stone wall looks like literally like a Disneyland stone wall. The site of the tavern in Pirates of the Caribbean. Yeah, yeah. But I think it's partly intentional. Like, I do think that Guillermo del Toro has this storybook conception of these worlds that aren't particularly lived in. Like, he wants them to be kind of like this almost like a distancing element, this sort of picture book. kind of fantastical spaces that don't feel particularly lived in or real. Guillermo del Toro is a filmmaker who's made a number of movies I do like, but I'm always baffled by how I don't particularly gravitate to his work in the way that I would expect, because I love maximalism, I love maximalism, tracking shots, elaborate, fantastical creations.

28:31I'm a Paolo Sorrentino and Terry Gilliam dead ender. I love those guys. I love this style of filmmaking. So you're going to Cannes for the rest of your life. I love this style of filmmaking. And there's a lot of stuff in del Toro's films I like and a number of his films I do like. But often I watch them and I'm like, I don't feel transported into his world. He's got great visual imagination. But his situational imagination or his kind of imagination of incident is a little more mundane. Yeah, I find there's something I think I found increasingly stifling about it. Like he's clearly thought through these so obsessively.

29:12But, you know, as opposed to someone say like a Tim Burton where there is that kind of maximalism, but it feels, I don't know, like it's hard to say like lived in because like Tim Burton's things are also outrageous. Tim Burton at his best too. Like 80s, 90s. But there is like a kind of coherence to the world that like makes it feel like not quite lived in, but you believe that these characters are living in this world, you know? Whereas I feel oftentimes like with more recent Del Toro films, like my eyes keep drifting away from the action to the backups because he's like thought about them so much, but they are almost like overwhelming the actual content of the film.

29:48I mean, like, I think I've even maybe said this on this podcast, but like with Nightmare Alley, a film that is supposed to be this kind of lurid exploration into like the dark depths of human nature and all of that. The thing that always stuck in my mind is like Cate Blanchett's incredible 1930s like Art Deco office, you know, and I'm like, it's a beautiful thing. But that should not be the first image that sticks in my head. But I mean, I think that is the thing that I feel like you thought the most about. yeah i mean in frankenstein for example and i i'll say frankenstein is not a movie i dislike there's a lot of stuff i like you might like it the best i mean i actually on the whole enjoy this film mainly because of elordi's performance but you know early on uh you know outside the ship when the monster shows up and is just like throwing down like throwing sailors all over the place um i mean it's a scene that i think is probably about five minutes long uh feels like 10 or longer even and as i'm watching it i just my attention just starts to drift right and you know like i'm watching it and he's like you know supposedly this is an action scene this happens later too where i'm just like oh you know what am i gonna make for dinner and you know like yeah if i catch the 905 train i can be home by 11 30 and it's like you know and i usually try to pay attention during these things and the film is like it feels like it really wants to command your attention um but like what's happening is i'm oh yeah the big guy's throwing sailors around of course or he's ripping somebody's mouth off and also like that scene you're supposed to be like these are like desperate men who are really worried they're going to die out here in like you know on this like doomed expedition to the north pole under this captain that they don't trust uh and they're being told to work themselves to death to like dig this ship out of the ice so they can keep going you feel like none of that desperation because yeah yeah i mean i always think back to i don't forget how many years ago it was but that great new yorker profile of del toro where it's kind of documenting his getting ready to like i don't know if he was like ready to shoot it but like certainly in pre-pre-production for like the at the mountains of madness or whatever that the lovecraft thing is and you know the the writer of the piece goes into his like workshop and all these models and like little, you know, monster, you know, figurines and all this, all of the sort of like stuff of his head kind of made manifest.

32:05And I think that's where he excels. But I think when I actually see the movies, I feel like I'm watching little figurines on a set design model. Like, I think he's such a good conceptualist, but then, yeah, he doesn't, ironically enough, given that it's Frankenstein, give it that spark of life that I really want. Yeah, I mean, I've kind of like jokingly, but not really joking. I mean, I really like The Shape of Water. I really like Tan's Labyrinth. But like my favorite movies of his are Hellboy 2 and Blade 2. And I think that is because Blade 2 is incredible. It feels like he is freed up in those movies to feel like, you know, less of this pressure to also be like.

32:41And in a funny way, you know, as he's leaned into being like, I want to find these kind of like perverse, dark things. I feel like there is like weirder, freakier stuff in those movies because it kind of comes out around the edges than when he has tried really hard to actually pursue it directly. Well, it's like another scene in Frankenstein early on when we see Victor's father feeding his mom the steak. He's like, you got to eat the steak. You know, the salt's good for you. And as soon as he feeds her the steak, I remember thinking, oh, now we're going to see a little droplet of blood run down.

33:16yeah and sure enough that's what happens and i'm like this is supposed to be i feel like this is supposed to be like a kind of a dark moment and instead it's kind of just a predictable moment um and and they're like moments like that throughout the film that sort of i'm like i kind of know what i'm i know what's going to happen he's going to lift the guy up and the brain's going to fall out like you know um uh and maybe that just is a measure of how just jaded and cynical i am i mean you know i will say my wife loves del toro's movie like she she's a horror fiend and she she loves his movies and i remember you know she was like like you gave a negative review to crimson peak what the fuck is wrong with you you know like um so there are a lot of people really you know love this stuff um so sometimes i watch the films and i think to myself i didn't really respond to it and sometimes i wonder if it's just more of a me problem than anything i'm also not a fan of pan's laugh i mean i will say like in crimson peak the part of that movie that really comes to life to me is chastain yeah i think chastain is delightful in that movie and And it's like really giving like, I think the whole thing.

34:16Oh, she's great. Yeah, but also like giving the kind of thing that I felt like the rest of the movie was aiming for, but felt like the rest of the movie felt much more beautiful. Like incredibly, incredible looking, but like kind of dramatically inert to me. And I think that at the same time, you know, you talked about, you know, his conceptual mastery. And watching Frankenstein, and I think I even said this in my review, as much as I like, I have a big problem with the first half of the movie. I think Iskar Isaac is like totally misguessed. Which we can get into. And then Elordi comes in and just absolutely breathes life into the movie.

34:50But then I'm like, well, that kind of makes sense for Frankenstein. I wonder if part of this is intentional. And maybe he's kind of going too far in one direction and sort of handicapping the movie a little bit. But I feel like, I mean, the whole thing has been conceptualized so that Elordi comes in. And he is, in fact, as you guys said, like the spark of life that kind of gives the movie its soul. And there's this whole question throughout the movie of where is this creature's soul? And so it kind of makes sense that like the first part of the movie kind of does not have a soul. And then the creature comes in and suddenly it has one.

35:25So there's a part of me that's like, I mean, it would be too perverse for, you know, Del Toro to just like sacrifice his movie for that. But there is something weirdly compelling about the way Elordi comes in and just basically breathes life into this thing. And I think it's interesting that a lot of at least the early stretch of part two, a lot of the ornate production design is gone. And he's the special effect, you know, and I think that that ratio for me works better than the opposite, I guess. And it changes visually, too. I mean, you know, first half of the movie, Oscar Isaac is often backlit, which I think is a mistake as well, because then we really don't get to see much of his face.

36:04And, you know, that's kind of where the drama should live. Right. But once it becomes the creature's story, once it becomes the monster's story, he's in light. Right. I mean, the light is shining on him and we see his face. We see all his features. And that is, I think, intentional. Like, I think that is something that, you know, that's part of the film's design and also explains why suddenly like we're seeing a face, a human face, the monster's face, but also a human face. And suddenly, like, we're starting to recognize real emotions and starting to feel something. But also, I don't know, like, Del Toro has said that he originally thought for a while that this would be two movies, you know, like the first would be the Victor Frankenstein version and then the second would be the creature.

36:47and it just seems so disastrous to me because already... Would he add new songs for the second one though? No one would like them though. They'd each get one new song. But I do think the major weakness of this movie for me is just how much it leans it is so much more interested in and sympathetic to the monster and I feel like well one, you know, this movie actually at certain point says, you are the monster Victor Frankenstein and you're like, yeah Yeah, we got that. We picked up on that. Thank you. Yeah. But also, like, I don't think that, you know, like, if you were going to make a whole separate movie just about this guy first, you have to find some soul to him as well.

37:27Like, even though he is doing these hubristic, like, kind of awful, doomed things, you also have to, like, understand him in some way and sympathize with him in some way. And he is just so kind of, like, off-putting from the beginning that it is really difficult to latch on to him in that first half. If you're going to tell the full Frankenstein story, Frankenstein has to be your protagonist at some point, you know. And here's where, you know, I should also say I am a fan of Kenneth Branagh's Mary Shelley's Frankenstein, a film that famously everyone hated when it came out, including me. I hated it when it came out and kind of almost destroyed Branagh's career as like a serious director at the time.

38:11But then over the years, I've gone back to it, and now I actually love it, and that movie leaves me in tears now. And we can get into sort of the performance stuff, but it does also make me think, well, you know, maybe there's a world in which, you know, 20 years from now I watch this Frankenstein. And I'm like, wait, I had it wrong. I love it now. I am so curious about, like, I saw the Branagh Frankenstein, oh, it's like 1994, right? In theaters when I was very young. And, like, it is very, like, imagery from that, I haven't seen it since. I'm very curious to go back and watch it, but also it's so seared in my brain.

38:43Like, that movie has much freakier imagery than the del Toro by far. Like, just like all the amniotic fluid. Like, there's just like, it does the whole bride thing, which is like kind of just like gestured to in this version, you know. Like, it is filled with some really dark, genuinely weird imagery. And I've never forgotten it.

39:15David. Yes. I am so excited about this episode sponsor. Yes. Me too. Might truly be the most excited I've ever had for anything to sponsor this podcast. We're excited to like sponsors that tell you how to like help your finances. Hey, easy. Okay. Okay. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Easy. Today's episode of Blank Check is brought to you by Nirvana, the band, the show, the movie. Nirvana, the band, the show, the movie. Marie's here too because everyone's so excited. I love this movie. I mean, I love this band, this show, this movie. Yes. Important correction. This film is finally coming to theaters. February 13th is the start of the theatrical rollout.

39:54Yeah. From our friends at Neon. Neon's bringing it out. We have been waiting impatiently for other people to see this film. We saw this at South by Southwest. One of the best screenings of my life. Truly. Truly. It was an unbelievable experience. Ben, you were there. Had a blast. And I had never seen or engaged with this show previously. Me neither. Most of the group had not. And you don't really need it. No. You don't need the context to enjoy. Absolutely. It's a big thing. I think you need to know what Toronto is. Because you knew nothing other than us hyping you up for you. Well, this was the problem.

40:26And we should say, it's a city in Canada. Yes. I went in. You guys had just been like, it's the best thing ever. And not just you. Other people. I can't believe how good. And I was like, this is so overhyped. And here's the great thing about David. I'm walking in. I felt mad about it. They've primed it too much for me. I like that you acknowledge this. Because sometimes if we tell you something's good, I see you go put your fists up. I'm just like, relax, because I need to. I can't go in with too much hype, because that's not good for my critical experience of a movie. And then I thought it was better than the hype.

40:57This is the thing. This movie is truly a miracle. I think it is the funniest movie of the last 10 years easily. And listeners of the show know I am often bemoaning the state of the theatrical comedy. And this is a movie that provides the thing I've been longing for, which is you go see this with a crowd. It is just electric every five seconds, rolling laughter. And the movie just builds and builds and builds. This is a movie from Matt Johnson. Yes. Director Blackberry, one of my favorite movies the last couple of years. Him and Jay McCarroll started as a web series, became a TV series, and now is a movie.

41:33But you don't need to know any of that. This works as a clean entry point. It's a movie about two friends who are obsessed with their band playing at one venue. They want to play at the Rivoli. That's all you need to know about these guys. Before the lights went down at the South by Southwest screening, I believe you turned to me and said, what do I need to know? And I said, all you need to know is they want to play the Rivoli. They got to play the Rivoli. I've been to Toronto many times. Have you been to the Rivoli? Never. I've stayed on Queen West, though, and I've certainly walked by the Rivoli many times.

42:01And I've always been like, oh, yeah, the Rivoli. There it is. It's not Carnegie Hall. No, it's a fucking bar. You never see these guys. What do you mean? It's the most important music venue in Canada. You never see these guys practice their music. But all you know is that every episode starts with, here's the plan. Here's how we play the Rivoli, right? We got to play the Rivoli. And this movie starts from there and explodes in unbelievable ways. I think this movie is truly like a magic trick beyond just how funny it is. And for how much it's caked in the deep lore of this Nirvana, the band, the show universe that's existed for 15 years.

42:32you can just go in knowing nothing and be blown away. And for a movie that seems kind of slapdash and roughly made from the start, it starts to pull off genuine like cinematic magic tricks where you cannot believe how this thing was made. What was my Letterboxd review, Griff? Did you see it? No, please tell me. LOL, how did they make this? Truly. That was how I thought. How did this get made? No, but I was also just like, how did they make this? I don't get it. You don't understand how they're getting away with it legally. you don't understand how it was cleared for release. And there is a melding of scripted and non-scripted, them engaging with real people on the street where the line between what is planned and what is not boggles your brain.

43:16It was my favorite thing I saw all of 2025. And now it's coming out in 2026. Now, listen, I do have to do some talking points, okay? Do some talking points. Nirvana the Band, the show, the movie, is in theaters February 13th. Get tickets now. we must say this Nirvana the Band the Show the Movie they're very clear that we have to say the title of this thing Nirvana the Band the Show the Movie why it's a really simple easy title Nirvana the Band the Show the Movie it really is a kind of like going cold expecting something fun I don't think you need too much more than that I know it sounds unwieldy or whatever but just like I think you're going to have a pretty good time if you trust our opinion at all take this recommendation don't look it up go in and I really, really doubt there is any chance you will be disappointed.

44:05In theaters February 13th. Get your tickets now. Do you have a relationship with Frankenstein like as a franchise? We don't know each other that well. We've run into each other at things. That's not what I heard. well the monster that's a different story talk about tossing sailors around um but uh i my sister and i loved the kenneth browner version we were probably i was probably 11 or so or 12 maybe when it came out on video and we rented that thing so often we would come home from the video store my mom would be like frankenstein again it was like clueless days of confuse a couple other movies And then that because we thought it was so ornate and scary and grim.

44:57And and there was something really visceral about it. And it was also because just to my Frankenstein origin story is when I was a bit younger than that. My mom had gotten the Fisher Price used to do these kind of chill like books on tape of classics with a sort of graphic novel comic book thing to follow along with as you listen to it. And the production value on the tapes was actually pretty good. They had, like, from what I remember, good actors. I had one of these. Yeah, and we had Frankenstein, and we had that and 1001 Arabian Nights or whatever. But Frankenstein was really the favorite because it was so grim and gothic and scary, and, like, people got strangled and a kid got killed, you know?

45:40And we thought we were very mature, and it scared the hell out of me. The illustration of the monster was terrifying. but that was firmly like Victor made a mistake but good and compelling protagonist monster tragic but also bad and that was a much clearer sort of and maybe it's not as nuanced or interesting but like that was a Frankenstein I could really respond to and I think the Branagh version does that as well I guess. Yeah I mean I didn't I don't have a very storied relationship with Frankenstein as a kind of concept monster franchise I was always much more of a vampire girl obviously like as a as a you know middle school and teenage goth girl like i was like it's sexy let me wear lace and eyeliner uh things that frankenstein can't do obviously well no well frankenstein if you're a frankenstein you've got a loom and you've got to do other stuff and you have a bolt through your neck we all know this these are the you also can't be goth and scared of fire that's not really yeah it just doesn't work how the candles you've got to light so many candles if you're goth.

46:40So, yeah, I, but I mean, I saw like the 1931 version, like I feel like when I was maybe a teenager or something, and that also felt very seared into my mind. And I think... Is that classic like Bolts and Nick? Like, is that that or no? Is that Karloff? It's the Karloff. And it also, I think it has like something, and we should talk about this also in comparison into the kind of like Oscar Isaacs kind of like ego-driven kind of also incel, you know, Victor Frankenstein, the, you know, monster in this is like so much more just like both like handsome and also like just like wronged, you know, like and kind of if not totally blameless, he does commit a lot of acts of violence, like not the same kind of acts of violence like famously in the in the james whale whale version there is that scene where uh the monster you know runs into this little girl by the side of the water and the little girl is showing him to like throw flowers in the water and then it becomes clear that he having run out of flowers like throws the little girl in the water and she drowns and like it is such a great uneasy element right where you're like you have this creation who is not necessarily actively malicious but is also frightening right like even without knowing like he and i think uh you know to remove that element from this version of the monster uh i you know del toro is like that's his big thing right i love my like the monsters like the real monsters are always well in this he's like the monster he's like the black sheep rejected you know art arty son where victory you know i mean i think he like went to skidmore or something like it's yeah well i mean like that's another thing about you know my my love for Hellboy 2 and Blade 2 is that he, and I think he has even said as much.

48:24He has done like test runs of this type of character before, right? Like both played by Luke Goss in these movies. Like, what is this? The Reaper, was it Reaper? I can't remember. And Blade 2. The villain who like, you know, is also pallid looking and turns out to be the son, right? Like the kind of estranged son who was experimented on by his vampire lord father and is resentful and, you know, now wants to kind of destroy him. And then the Prince Nuada in Hellboy 2, also this kind of alabaster-looking, resentful estranged son who, you know, is mad at his dad. It's, he definitely, this idea has been sticking around.

49:08And I don't know how much it is related actually to Frankenstein versus just, like, these ideas that he wants to deal with and, like, has been grappling with multiple times in his work that he is now bringing to Frankenstein. But like, yes, the apparently extremely pale, but beautiful, resentful son, who in this case finally becomes like the flat out hero, not just the antagonist. Right. Yeah. And an action hero. And I think going back to the tossing the sailors around part, like when I saw the trailer for this, I was like, oh, no, he's like super strong. Like, it just, like, now it looks like a superhero movie.

49:40And, like, I think I just wanted it like a Frankenstein. And it's crazy to say this about the Branagh version, but, like, lower to the ground. Or, like, feeling a bit more human. And this just feels like, you know, in trying to get us to see the awesome power of this creation, it's overstated or something. Could some of these be, like, Netflix notes? I wonder. I don't know how much. I mean, the question of how much Netflix gives notes is like an eternal one. But I think with their auteur, their kind of chosen auteurs, I don't know that they give any. Well, because the monster in this is supposed to be Vecna's brother, right?

50:18They're going to get a spin on it together. It's going to be a sitcom, though. I don't think Netflix gives notes to Del Toro anymore, especially at this point, because he's done a number of things. It's funny, though, is that opening scene is like a classic Netflix opening scene where they're like, we have to start with the action. Like, you know, we have to keep people's attention. That's true. But it's also, I mean, it makes perfect sense for the story to start that way. But yeah. My, Frank, I'll just tell very quickly. My very first introduction to it was we had, you know, before we moved to the U.S.

50:52and discovered videotapes, we had super eight millimeter films of different movies. and never a full feature. But like, we had a lot of like three minutes of a Disney movie, that sort of thing. And then we had like the last... You asked Bambi's mom dying. Yeah, yeah. We had like the last reel of King Kong. Right. And then we had the scene with the little girl from Frankenstein. So like, I just watched that over and over and over and over. You watched a billion selections. Jesus. But there were some Laurel and Hardy things. The episode where Laurel dies. Yeah. the episode where Hardy, like, you know, throws a girl in the water.

51:35But so that was kind of my introduction to it. And I don't even remember when I finally saw the, you know, the full James Whale movie. I mean, it was, you know, still fairly young, but, you know, young Frankenstein. I probably saw young Frankenstein before I saw the full James Whale Frankenstein, you know. Yeah. So, I don't know. How much do we feel like this, like Del Toro has said, But Frankenstein was this incredibly formative text for him, like the James Bond movie, the book. Do we feel like this is him ultimately rendering the vision he's been trying to make the whole time? I think so. I mean, he's been working on it for so long, I'd be shocked if it wasn't.

52:13I mean, it does feel like this is the movie he wanted to make. I mean, the film is incredibly controlled, right? I mean, it's a remarkable display of his vision, I think. Like, it's like, I have problems with a lot of it, but there's nothing in it feels like a misstep on his part. Like, it all, like, every decision feels like, oh, that's exactly the thing he wanted to do. He didn't run out of time or not get the shot he wanted. Like, yeah, it feels like he got what he was aiming for. Oh, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And I think that that's maybe, but maybe his empathy towards the monster or his, you know, ability to relate to that character, maybe it sort of backfires a little bit in the fact that his vision of Victor Frankenstein is just so dull, right?

53:02I mean, you know, it's a very big, broad performance by Oscar Isaac. But Oscar Isaac, as far as I'm concerned, is not the kind of actor who gives that kind of big, broad performance. Oscar Isaac, I think of as a much subtler actor. Like, I love him in something like The Card Counter, right? Or was it The Most Dangerous Year? Most Violent Year. Most Violent Year. Like, I think he's very good in those kind of slow burn parts where you're just kind of watching his face. and just kind of watching things dawn and register on his face. Him sort of running around yelling like a crazy person, he's just a lot less interesting that way.

53:40In contrast to Kenneth Branagh, who is the king of big, bellowing, loud performances. What are you talking about? Come on. He's a subtle actor. I mean, like, a great fit for playing a character who is kind of like this egotistical, you know, like demanding of people recognizing his genius. Again, I don't understand what you're saying. about Kenneth Branagh. Yeah, I mean, I don't know. This is a movie, Frankenstein is a movie where Victor literally falls in love with his mother, right? Like the same, like Miyagoth playing his beloved mother he's fixated on and then the woman he sees, his brother fiancé, who he's instantly smitten with.

54:18That should be a kind of grand and slightly... Instead, it just feels like, I don't know, nothing. It feels so programmed. yeah the Isaac thing is weird because I saw him on stage at the public theater in Hamlet like god it was almost a decade ago at this point I think um and he was so incredible that like I think my headline was like he's the best actor of his generation I think he's been so good in the movies you mentioned Bella um and I like when an actor goes big and so I thought I would be kind of exciting to see Oscar Isaac do it here and yet it just does not work there's something a bit too kind of cliche about it or something?

55:01Like the British accent is sort of not working? I don't know. Like, Alison, what do you think? I think I also think Oscar Isaac is an incredible actor. I do think part of it is that I think he's a little too in tune to the idea that this character is supposed to be this, like, dislikable. I mean, like, so much of what's on the page with that character is already tilting him towards villainy, you know? Like, um, yeah, his fixation on this woman who, like, gives no real kind of reception, right? Like, he, like, and... She's never even, like, remotely... No, and he, like, at a certain point, like, even berates her for, like, you know, like, not basically being, like, giving it to him.

55:39I'm a nice guy. Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, really, I mean, that's in the text, right? And then, yeah, like, his, the ways in which he instantly kind of turns on his creation, right? Like, you know, in this, I mean, it's not a subtle screenplay, but like, you know, his father is so incredibly hard on him and he feels like he is just not the right son that his father wants. And whereas his brother, you know, he seems like the perfect child. And then immediately his own surrogate son, when his surrogate son is not like developing at the rate that he wants, he's like, you're useless to me. Like, you know, like, this is a disaster.

56:14Like, why did I even do this? I don't want you. And becomes like abusive and awful to him. So like he's, there's so much on the page that is villainous. And I feel like Isaac just leans into that. I mean, it was interesting to me to read about Del Toro saying he wanted to cast this version of Victor Frankenstein not just like as a mad scientist, but as like a kind of rock star. Right. And like that the clothing was supposed to be inspired by like 60s and 70s. Well, that one hat after he does his presentation. But I do not think that comes through in the performance. I think the performance tilts more peevish and tilts much more off-putting.

56:48And I don't think that there's... I think there's a reason that he latched onto that. But I think it makes the character so difficult to attach to in any way ever. And I think if you're going to lean into the rock stardom, that you want to be like, oh, this character is so compelling. But like the one time we see him kind of performing for an audience, right, of like all of the medical establishment being like, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. It's the same people who told Charlie Hunnam he couldn't go to the Amazon. You know, it's the same exact. Exactly. They're just waiting there the whole time.

57:20Like it's a little known fact about older England is that they just had a bunch of guys in wigs waiting around to be like, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. When young men came in to challenge their preconceptions. Yeah, but I mean, like, that, it doesn't feel like he is performing in this way to be like, look at how incredible I am. You know, from the beginning, it's clear, like, he's not, he's, like, you know, already going to be driven out. Like, there's no sense of, like, why he would have, like, followers or, like, why people, like, he's just from the beginning such a kind of outlier and so off-putting.

57:54Yeah. We should feel sorry for this character. And we really don't. And we should wonder what he's up to. I mean, that's that's to me, that's Oscar Isaac's great powers that you look at him. And I mean, when he's acting, this is, you know, when he's when he's being subtle or understated, you just sort of see the emotions kind of dance across his face and you start to wonder where he's going with this. And in his best roles, you know, that's marvelous. And here there's just no shading, no dimensionality, no sense of unpredictability or anything. He's just kind of this screaming guy. And you're watching because we've seen, I mean, you know, the movie is two creation sagas, right?

58:45I mean, we see how Victor became the person he is. And then we see what happened with the monster. And as a result, like, we have all this backstory of him. We should feel like we understand something about this man. And we don't. We really don't. He becomes progressively more and more, like, one-dimensional, you know? Yeah. I mean, I thought about Inside Llewyn Davis, which, you know, is an incredible movie and has an incredible Oscarizing performance in it. And it is one that I think bears some relation in a little bit to this character of this, you know, he is someone who is like yearning for this kind of like, for this ability to chase his like creative artistic dream and realize his vision and to kind of like also be recognized, you know, for his genius and never has that.

59:29And it's also a character who does a lot of very dislikable things, you know. But, like, you have no trouble understanding that character. And have no trouble, I think, like, empathizing with him even when he can be, like, a piece of shit. I mean, his Hamlet was so good for that reason. But it was, like, so human even when he's acting, well, play acting is crazy or being petulant to Ophelia or whatever. Like, you felt so sad for him the whole time. And that's hard to do, you know. And I've always had issues with Llewyn Davis because I find that movie like I'm into it and then it gets it just gets a little too prickly and it puts me off or something.

1:00:04But the more I watch that movie, the more I appreciate what Isaac is doing in it. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that there is something missing at the core of this Frankenstein, which is to be like the idea of wanting to to best death, to be like death is something we should not have to put up with. And this is born out of like my own ego, but also my like terrible loss of the only person in my life who like, you know, like showed me love and softness. Like it should be those two forces like, you know, should be present in and you don't really know. Like, I don't think in this movie you watch and be like, I know why you're so obsessed with doing this impossible thing.

1:00:37you know like i'm trying to beat god like i i don't really know in this it's it's entirely an academic kind of exercise for him yeah i mean isaac can do ambitious he can do longing like these are things that are within his powers as an actor to really convey and and and make impactful it's almost like del toro didn't trust him or del toro had like his visual style and his vision of the movie in hand before he cast that actor you know and and i think i think it's a miscalculation on that part yeah and i also like between star wars and this it's like i think i just would love him to ask isaac to get back to the smaller stuff i mean he did do a play a couple years ago that transferred to broadway that was i thought it was fine he was good in it but like i just i'm i'm yearning for more of the history you know most violent year lewin davis kind of you know ex machina ex machina is incredible and that's kind of mid range like he's not too too subtle in that but you know you know he did that big Christian Bale epic about was it about Turkey and Armenia right the promise you know like he's done kind of different sized things but I just want him to I want to see that sort of more present accessible Oscar Isaac again I don't know it's been a while it feels like can we talk about Mia Goth in this?

1:02:02I think she looks great she does look, I mean she has an incredible face, I do feel like I don't know, that performance is like almost just like, though, like you know like but when she's wearing like a feather headdress, like who cares? I mean all of her like incredible veils, like and the colors she's wearing, I think are amazing but you know when she gives when she gives the speech about how she and the butterfly are basically the same, these like strange creatures but like irresistible. I feel like that's every role you play in Mia Gough. You know, like that, you're like, I'm like the delicate, weird butterfly.

1:02:38Again, it also feels expected. It's like, if Del Toro makes a Frankenstein movie, of course Mia Gough plays Elizabeth. It just felt obvious in a way. Kind of like the brain's falling out of the head or whatever. I kind of expected exactly that performance, and that's what's given to us. What do we think of Christelle Faltz, though? well I mean having just seen him in in Luc Besson's Dracula he wasn't acting in that though he had just stopped by the set he was like oh you guys are where we have common cause today on hunting this monster on second rewatch I think Waltz is good you know I mean he's doing his waltzy thing but it really works here and I also think that that desperate almost final scene where it's revealed that he has syphilis and he delineates like how it's going to progress and it's going to be horrible like that to me is the sort of raw squalid squirming humanity that you're dying for from that whole first half of the movie yeah i mean uh something i think del toro pointed out this comparison himself which i thought was funny which is like uh that there is an aspect to which uh you know victor is the director and uh vaults is playing like the studio yeah and it's being like especially in this case of this project like his like del toro's dream project where they're like you can have all the resources you want, but I will ask you for this one thing later.

1:03:57Maybe it will involve streaming. But yeah, sometimes you're also like... Ted, syphilis. Sometimes it's also you're like, maybe you don't want to get all the resources you want in exchange for one thing. There's always a catch. Yeah, well, that's an interesting point. I like that. My problem is, and it's not just with this movie, but maybe especially with this movie, but there are times I don't like some of the surreality of del toro's world and in this i'm just like oh so then victor moves into crimson peak like that house with the crate like the creepy staircase the the circular window up in the attic like i've like i've seen that a zillion times not just in del toro movies like it just there it didn't feel inventive and so i didn't really know why he was doing this and then when you get to the monster and that version of it and that performance really oh okay so there was a distinct idea of how to do this but yeah like you guys have already said like that the first half of the movie feels like sort of prof just kind of going through the motions to get to where he wants to go that's a problem when it's an hour and a half of the movie yeah i think also i don't know i think now if i just gonna keep steering the conversation back to hellboy 2 i mean uh but i think it is nominated for best picture this year so um i think like uh you look at you know this kind of like comic book monster in this case comic book hero but you're like okay he is a giant red guy you know has like a stone hand has horns is the son of the devil may may or may not stop talking about kenneth browner this way this is it's getting ridiculous respect his work as an actor um uh you know may destroy the world someday like um has like genuine kind of like baggage in terms of the idea of actually being the hero uh there is an aspect of the lordy frankenstein's monster here where i'm just like it's almost like a like a kind of stereotype of like a YA fantasy thing where you're like oh it's so awful that I'm like of these both worlds I'm just super strong and I'm immortal and I'm tall and like you know hot and just striking looking and everyone hates me because of that you know you're like kind of like uh I don't know that your problems are real here I like I you know like I get sorted into Gryffindor yeah I'm like I like I need like like real discomfort or real kind of like you know like it's funny like when he first goes out into the real world and then he like has that moment with the kind of like the deer or whatever and that people like shoot at him immediately and you're like why are they shooting at him he mostly looks like a guy wearing a cloak like there's no reason to look at him and immediately be like what is that monster?

1:06:33They've seen Prometheus they know what things that look like that can do Well there's that shot of him waking up in that you know in that puddle of water with like the castle burning what I call the Prometheus shot. Yeah, it is. But that is, but that's the moment when the movie like comes to life for me. Because suddenly, I saw that shot and I'm like, I'm up. Like, okay, what's happening next? Because it felt like such a, such a dramatic change in both tone and also lighting that at that moment I thought, okay, wait, something interesting is about to happen and it does. But you're right. I mean, the thing I keep thinking, I'm sorry, this is just going to turn into just a giant reclamation project for Kenneth Branagh's Frankenstein, which is a movie still widely aided by people.

1:07:17But, you know, De Niro in that film is so pathetic, right? And that pathos, that smallness is actually, like, works really well, especially contrasted with, you know, Branagh's kind of bellowing performance. And here, I mean, again, Elordi is fantastic, but there is, like, the cards are kind of stacked. Like, it is kind of like, well, of course you're going to love this guy. Yeah, and one of the people looking after him, the younger woman on the farm, is Lauren Collins from Degrassi, The Next Generation. I mean, this is teen royalty, all grown up. So that's another way that he's trying to win your affection.

1:07:54Well, it's funny that even, you know, Frankenstein himself is, like, jealous of his supposedly, you know, nightmarish monster creature because he's like, you know, like the girl I like. She likes you more. And, I mean, that's an element that is, like, underplayed in the movie, but is definitely, like— So Frankenstein's a real Mary Sue, basically. You're saying, you know.

1:08:23David? Yes. HelloFresh. Whoa! HelloFresh. HelloFresh, this new year, nothing hits like home cooking. Boy, do I know it. HelloFresh brings back the joy of the kitchen with recipes that feel good and taste delicious night after night. feel good and taste delicious. It's a potent mix. HelloFresh. It's a very, very... I feel like it's the number one meal kit service because I'm always... Whenever you see one of those kind of recommendation websites with like, here are all the options. HelloFresh is always at the top. It does feel like that, doesn't it? Yeah. Over 100 mouthwatering recipes each week.

1:08:57I'm going to take a look at some... I got some... A loaded shawarma style chicken and rice bar. 30 minutes it takes to make this. I like that sound. High protein. Veggie packed. Difficulty medium. Okay. what's the easiest? Okay, you want an easy one? Give me the easiest. All right, listen. One pan, cheesy chicken tortilla, melt, dark meat, chicken, green pepper, spicy cream sauce. 20 minutes, difficulty, easy. This looks pretty good. I like every one of those words. I love how like the menu, it like, it tells you like, what are the allergens? What may be, you know, little things much you need extra, like some butter, some cooking oil, but almost everything else is there.

1:09:34Different people eat differently. And with HelloFresh, you can choose from 35 plus high protein weekly recipes, including new Mediterranean and GLP friendly options made with wholesome ingredients like sustainably sourced seafood and 100 % antibiotic and hormone free chicken. So HelloFresh, I've used this. You should too. Go to hellofresh.com slash check 10 FM. That's check one zero FM. Yeah, I know this. This is a deal they've had for a long time and you can finish speaking because there's no added bonus onto this deal. Ticket for 10 free meals. Right, exactly. And... What? A free Zwilling knife.

1:10:13A free Zwilling knife? That's a$144.99 value. You are correct. On your third box, offer valid while supplies last. Free meals applied as discount on first box. New subscribers only varies by plan. But HelloFresh.com slash check 10FM for 10 free meals and that free Zwilling knife on your third box. Goodbye.

1:10:45To bring this back around to the Oscars, this is, I think, obviously this incredible feat of production design, of costume design, of all of these things. Do we see this as a movie that is going to do well in those categories? Or is this a movie that is going to get nominated, got nominated for a lot of things, but then doesn't end up winning anything? sinners is nominated for a lot of these same things right yes the thing is that it's the other kind of really like juggernaut blockbuster but that also has the political weight behind it and these great performances which were alive as a movie yeah yeah um i don't know i mean i think that look the academy clearly really likes del toro something about i think i mean pan's labyrinth thing that was like they sort of like broke the dam a little bit and then obviously shape of water performed so incredibly well.

1:11:33Nightmare Alley managing to get a Best Picture nomination when that movie was pretty, you know, tepidly received as something. So I would be surprised in a way if it went home with nothing. It's just a matter of like, where is Sinners or something else a little bit weaker, you know? Well, here's my other question. I feel like there was this moment, especially with Shape of Water, which again, it's a movie I like a lot, but I think is a movie that at the time everyone was like, can you believe this movie about a lady who, like, has sex with a fish man. Like, that's going to win. Best picture. But it is actually, like, really not that wild.

1:12:08It's a sentimental love story. It's a dark fairy tale. It's a remake of Splash. Yeah. I mean, exactly. Having re-watched Splash last year, I was like, wait, this is The Shape of Water. Right down to, like, the cool. I've always realized that Sally Hopkins is our modern Tom Hanks. Yeah, you have often said that. I've been very confused until this time, and now I don't think it makes sense. But, you know, Shape of Water is supposed to be, like, the wild, freaky choice. And I think it is like, but it is like, I think much gentler and like, actually, I mean, it is a kind of Beauty and the Beast story, right?

1:12:37But without even like the rage, like the monster in this is like in many a Del Toro thing, actually, like the kind of most sympathetic and not misunderstood creature of them all. And aside from, you know, like that one hand gesture that Sally Hawkins gives to explains how she and the fish man had their night together. It really, I think it doesn't get as freaky as maybe everyone would like to be like from the description. I wonder if like maybe there was this, if I don't know if it's Del Toro seeing himself that way, but there was this moment where Del Toro was going to be the kind of like the freaky side of the Academy.

1:13:13And like now actually I feel like Yorgos Lanthimos is like much more like bringing the genuine like freaky stuff. You know, we talked about Eronia last time. Social message. But like he's like really kind of like pushing harder in terms of like of doing weird stuff. Like where does that leave Del Toro? Is he like a safer choice? Well, he's kind of I mean, he's almost like kind of this establishment choice at this point. I mean, especially because he's won and has had the kind of, there is the kind of Oscar gauntlet, career gauntlet that you go through. You win and then you become, you get nominated for things that people didn't expect you to be nominated.

1:13:50I mean, Spielberg is kind of the classic example. Or he just, he's just there every year, you know. And so he's, yeah, he's become kind of the establishment. But at the same time, it is an interesting sign of how far we've come, you know, that Guillermo del Toro is like Oscar royalty at this point. Like, he makes a movie and it's kind of like, yeah, it'll probably get nominated for Best Picture at this point, no matter what it is. You know, whether it's a remake of Frankenstein. I mean, it's not that common for, you know, these types of films to get nominated. I mean, I think probably Coppola would have loved it if it was 30 something years ago.

1:14:25Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I guess Coppola is a great example of that. I mean, you know, I mean, I love Bram Stoker's Dracula. But that's another film that at the time, a lot of people, including me, were kind of like, I was a little over the top. This is not all works. Am I sure all these performances are doing what you want them to? I saw that in the theaters when I was about nine years old with my friend. Because his parents were going to see, I believe they went to go see the Don Johnson, Rebecca DeMornay thriller, Guilty as Sin. And they were like, that's too grown up for you. So we'll have we'll buy you tickets to Bram Stoker's Dracula.

1:14:58We'll have this younger couple like like, you know, young adults escort you in as if they're your like babysitters or whatever. And then so the ushers won't kick you out or whatever. And about 30 minutes into the Coppola movie, I was like, I think I'm too young for this. Like, I just sort of almost like I mean, I sat through the whole thing. But yeah, I had like looked up. It was referenced somewhere. I looked up the what was described on YouTube and the clip as like Dracula bites Lucy. And someone in the comments was like, oh, is that what we're calling it? Like, yeah, that is a scene I should probably not have seen when I when I the age I did.

1:15:33um bilga how are you feeling about i mean i know that oscars aren't your like number one you know interest in the movie world but like how are you feeling about like this year's race like you know we had joked at the top of the show that we were we were a little hard on train dreams and maybe a little less hard on hamnet but we had some critiques are do you feel like do you like the 10 are there favorites among them i like the 10 i mean i i i don't think there's a single movie on there that i would say i don't like okay that's right um i mean there are films that i'm more ambivalent about than others um my top four movies this year were uh train dreams caught by the tides hamnet and f1 so hey so you did really well i did well you know and and it's funny because i feel like the three nominees in that four are like um you know i've all become like villains of one, you know, one form or another this season.

1:16:32With F1, everyone assuming that F1 somehow took the place of it was just an accident when clearly it was Bogonia that took the place of it. I would agree with that. But, yeah, you know. What was your, what was your kind of response to either the Hamnet or the Train Dreams backlash? Is there a Train Dreams backlash? There was briefly on Twitter. I read a whole article about it. The Train Dreams Wars. When it first showed up on netflix there was this initial wave of people kind of hating on it but also kind of being baffled by by the love for this was before it was nominated um which i thought was actually delightful i mean even though i absolutely adore train dreams i was like this is this is kind of the power of netflix their ability to like get a movie out in front of everybody and even if it's just for a weekend get them talking about it in a way especially with a film like train dreams Because you look at what the fate of Train Dreams would have been otherwise, it would have been picked up by a smaller distributor.

1:17:30It would have played IFC Center. It probably would not have at any point become like a trending topic. It would come in that rubber banded pack of Magnolia DVD screeners. Which they don't even send anymore, which I still, I mean, I cherish those. Me too. But, so, you know, like, ultimately, Netflix buying that movie turned out well for it, even though, you know, a lot of us were kind of not upset, but a little concerned when, I mean, my, literally, I think the last line of my review was, please, for the love of God, don't watch this movie on your phone. because they had just bought it when I reviewed it.

1:18:11And they did write by it. They did put it in theaters. It wasn't around for that long, but they did put it in theaters. It did play. Same with Frankenstein. I feel like they're kind of coming around to the idea of putting movies in theaters, but who knows what, you know. You said it was your number one. It was my number one, yeah. What did you like about it? I mean, I respond to these stories that kind of try and take in a large swath of someone's life. I mean, it reminds me a lot of other films I enjoy, like Barry Lyndon, which is probably my favorite film of all time. Frankenstein. Frankenstein.

1:18:50But I love the fact that it's a film built out of relatively mundane details that leads to an overpowering conclusion or an overwhelming conclusion. and I think I mean it's probably of the films I've reviewed this year it's probably the one I've gotten the most feedback on from people a lot of people really love it the question is you know why don't you love it well yeah I mean we I think that I I appreciate a lot of the aesthetics I've seen it three times and I and I I think that I started to see a little bit of some some synthetic fabric in there like like the way that it's trying to get us to feel things and think about America, life and, you know, life in the world.

1:19:32But when that backlash happened and your piece came out, I was very, even though I wasn't the hugest fan of that movie, I was very much on your side because I thought the critiques of it, and this is people snarking on Twitter, you know, which is, which is, you know, but like, oh, the voiceover makes it like a credit card commercial or whatever. And I was like, well, that's not really true. I think the voiceover is really nice in that movie. But, you know, I sent my piece. It was interesting. I wrote another piece, something I wrote for the Yale Review about films that are influenced by Terrence Malick.

1:20:07I mean, looking at kind of the whole, you know, last 20, 30 years of films influenced by Terrence Malick. And that was one of them. I mean, it was pegged to that and Hamnet, actually. And while there are, you know, clearly Malick-like touches in the film, I found it fascinating that people said that the voiceover was Malickian, which it isn't. No, it's not at all. You know, Terrence Malick does first-person voiceovers, very limited, stream of consciousness, and very fallible voiceover. He does not do kind of omniscient narration. and I found it fascinating that people kept saying oh this is just like Terrence Malick light this voiceover I'm like actually it isn't it's more kind of the Jules Légime model of voiceover yeah I didn't hear Will Patton ever say father mother you always wrestle in me or whatever yeah you know that didn't happen one time yeah I think I'll be a mud doctor you know but at the same time you know he's become kind of synonymous with voiceover so maybe that's what it is but you know I think it's a beautiful film I do think, you know, the differences with the novella that people have talked about and how the novella is a lot thornier and more kind of politically complicated, that's all well taken.

1:21:21I actually think that by making this character less complicit and less guilty, but still wracked by guilt, I actually think in a weird way, it's more politically damning, right? I mean, the idea of kind of a person who watches this stuff happen doesn't partake in it, but still feels the guilt of what he's witnessed and what he's failed to intervene against, even though he couldn't have done anything. He would have just gotten shot along with everyone else. But that, to me, I think is one, on one level, very relatable, but also on another level, you know, like I said, incredibly damning, right?

1:22:05And it's a feeling that I think a lot of people sense. And even though Train Dreams is not ultimately all about that, I mean, it's about a number of different things. And the idea of feeling like there's some kind of – that you've been condemned karmically almost, which feeds into both what happens with the migrant workers but also with the idea that they're just like tearing down these forests. and they become, you know, later on in the film when you see kind of how mechanized the whole logging operation has become and how careless, you know, you feel bad for him and you feel bad for the other old timers in the way that they've kind of been cast aside.

1:22:48But at the same time, this is the world they've created, you know, right? I mean, they were kind of, you know, the vanguard of this. So how complicit are they? I think these are all interesting things that the film, I think, tackles in a fascinating and very compelling way, but obviously different from the novella. And I know a lot of people have issues with that, but, you know. Well, unfortunately, you've now given yourself a new role in that every time we're negative about a movie, you have to come two weeks later and offer the rebuttals. That was, I appreciate that, Billy. Thank you. We're going to put you on the spot one more time.

1:23:24All right, let's do it. Defend Hamnet in five minutes or less. Which I like, by the way. I like Hamnet. Okay, you like Hamnet. Yeah, I do. I think people I think I maybe didn't sound as positive about it as I meant to be. The ending makes me sob. So that's an effective movie. I'm dead inside. So you're dead inside. Well, it's OK. Yeah. I mean, again, a film that absolutely wrecked me, reduced me to tears. I've seen it like four times at this point. Every time I cry harder. I think I think it's beautifully done. I love again. Actually, you know, as I was saying, it kind of has that same cadence.

1:24:00not quite the same cadence as Train Dreams, but it does have that sort of just marches forward with these lives. You know, I love the novel too. And the novel is, I mean, it's like the film is like faithful and somehow also not because the novel doesn't have a linear structure. It just keeps coming back to the day of Hamnet's death and it kind of just circles that. And I remember when I went into the film, I thought to myself, how the hell are they going to turn this into a movie? Like this is going to be just absolutely, You can't just keep going back to this child dying. It'll be horrible. And obviously they don't do that.

1:24:33They kind of forge forward, you know, because the novel doesn't feel like a book about the writing of Hamlet. The film does feel like a film about the writing of Hamlet, which is, you know, I mean, it's my favorite play, you know, widely considered by a lot of people. You know, the greatest play in the English language, although, you know, others may disagree. But the fact that they would take on a topic like this, the fact that they would say, okay, we're going to do the creation of Hamlet. I thought that was just like brazen and beautiful. And I think, I mean, to me it works really well. I love the fact that there are two versions of the to be or not to be speech in it.

1:25:12Two very different versions of it as if to kind of say, hey, you know, everybody has their own version of Hamlet. But that final moment, I mean, is probably the best depiction of catharsis I've ever seen. I just saw a film, it was at Sundance, where they're talking about catharsis and how catharsis works. And I just kept thinking, Hamnet is like a perfect example of, you know, like this is what it is. That one-to-one connection is, you know, is representative of what great art is supposed to do. Yeah, I agree with a lot of that. I just do wish that it had ended with Hamnet chasing his father across the Arctic.

1:25:48I think that would have really been a lot more powerful. That's how most movies end. So I feel like maybe it's good that every once in a while we mix it up. Yeah. What's the Shakespeare play with Exit Chase by a Bear? Winter's Tale. Yeah. You should have had that. I played a guard in that as a teenager. Well, speaking of great art, Richard Lawson's Doppelganger, the AI Richard Lawson. Yeah, so last week Ben found my alternate existence, right? There's an AI journalist named Richard Lawson who I think they're just trying to make me kind of... Well, they're clearly just like... I guess this is a thing where these slop sites will put things under a byline and it won't be claiming to be this Richard, but it will be like Richard Lawson and they have a whole bio and a picture of someone and they're clearly trying to get SEO traffic.

1:26:40We think. At any given time, there are thousands of people searching my name on Google. I'm assuming. I'm doing it right now. Yeah, yeah. Well, the other Richard Lawson was writing about the Super Bowl. Sure. Yeah, that makes sense. Because I wasn't watching it, so my doppelganger had to. So the other Richard Lawson has already today published nine pieces? Yeah, no, I'm amazing. I'm incredible. That's the Richard Lawson. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I've reviewed so many things. would the AI Richard Lawson like to finish my withering life I need some sleep yeah yeah the AI somehow names number one the Kate Bush song yeah not a bad choice so I thought it might be a good opportunity to talk about some of the Super Bowl oh yeah collaborations new trailers and stuff yeah well there was the surprise trailer for the Adventures of Cliff Booth Yeah, which Fincher directed Tarantino written.

1:27:40Yes. And I got to say, when I read about that movie, I kind of didn't believe it was actually a real thing for like the better part of a year or whatever. Neither did I. And then I kind of started dreading it when it became clear that it was real. But I don't know, the trailer? The trailer looked amazing. I actually missed the trailer. And they haven't put it online officially yet. So they've been really sneaky. It's online now. Is it? Is it official? Yeah, it looks fun. It looked great. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I loved Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. I love David Fincher. I've been worried about his weird tenure with Netflix, which seems to have led to making, I don't know, I mean, odd, sometimes likable projects, but with them increasingly being like, that's too much money, you can't have it.

1:28:21So for Tarantino to be like, here's a script, and Netflix to be like, okay, have a lot of money. Brad Pitt will be in it. I'm all for it. Elizabeth Debicki's in it, being tall, as previously discussed. That's right. One of her many strong suits. Yeah, I don't know. I thought it looked great. Did any of you watch any of the ads that were directed by big directors? Because I kind of... I think there's the Yorgos one. I missed that one. I missed Yorgos. Were there multiple Yorgos-directed ones? There was a Yorgos. There was a Taika Waititi one. He's been directing a lot of ads. Yeah. Was there anyone else?

1:28:56Probably. I mean, everyone. There were a lot of big actors also in this. Remember there was... The Dunkin' Donuts thing was an atrocity. Wait, tell me what was that? Because I won't. Oh, God. It was, well, de-aged versions. It was kind of a goodwill hunting thing, except that, you know, the Matt Damon character was played by Ben Affleck in this case with like a bad wig. But it was all kind of characters from 80s, 90s sitcoms. And, you know, I mean, Ted Danson was there from Cheers. Oh, wow. I mean, it was horrifying. And everybody's face kind of looked like it was sort of floating. Yeah, Princess Leia style.

1:29:40It was like bad de-aging. And I don't even know what the point of it was ultimately other than... At the end, Tom Brady showed up. And I was watching with my son and his friend. And they had no idea who any of these people were except for Tom Brady. They're like, what's Tom Brady doing? With all those randos. Well, so apparently, so Taika Waititi did the Pepsi ad, which I do not remember. Spike Jonze did the Ben Stiller ad for Instacart, which I vaguely remember. Joseph Kaczynski, your guy, he did the Kurt Russell, I guess Lewis Pullman one. I didn't see that one either. Wait, it's Kurt Russell in an ad for Lewis Pullman?

1:30:18Yeah, he's like, I think it's like slightly confusing because it's like, Lewis Pullman is like, oh no, if you always have to like, You're the worst skier of the friend group, so you always have to buy the round at the bar. And then Kurt Russell turns up at the bar and is like, I can help you with that. I can train you how to ski. But then you're kind of like, it feels like it should be either Wyatt Russell or Bill Paul. There's a celebrity dad, kind of like weirdness there that you're like, ugh. And then your girls, I guess, did two ads, Squarespace and Grubhub. Oh, the George Clooney Grubhub?

1:30:48Yes. People were mad about that. I missed that one. But yeah, do you remember when it used to be embarrassing for stars to do ads when they go to Japan. Yeah. I kind of missed that. I think we need to bring them back. Well, yeah, the sentiment I saw last night that was kind of centered on the Clooney thing was like, we need to bring back like a really stringent 80s or early 90s sense of selling out. Yes. Because like, we've gone too far. What was the commercial that sort of broke that dam? Do we remember? Oh, like a while ago. I feel like if I thought about it for a few minutes, I could remember.

1:31:19I mean, the George Clooney Nespresso ads did make their way over the Atlantic from Europe at some point. And became like an ongoing punchline, right? Like to this day. I guess maybe the American Express ads. That was the whole thing. Like they would have famous people, you know, Stephen King did one. I think that the Amex definitely was an early thing. Honestly, and this sounds like maybe I'm nagging like a major, you know, media platform. But like, I kind of feel like when movie stars started doing television, that sort of was like blurred the lines enough they were like okay well how blurry can this get you know like we could because yeah now and I think it was also like voiceover stuff like not that he was a big star but Billy Crudup doing MasterCard for years right right right Activia Jamie Lee Curtis doing Activia absolutely and then Perry did an SNL you know I think Billy Crudup did MasterCard before he kind of hit a dig right he was around like he had done his earlier stuff and he'd done Almost Famous and all that.

1:32:21But like, yeah, he wasn't like, you know, it was before all this current success. But yeah, I mean, I guess like, I don't know, I just bring back sort of shame about that. You get paid enough, you pay job. You'd have to bring back shame on many, many levels. The problem isn't those commercials. The problem is just shame just doesn't exist. Yeah, although I will say, I spent my weekend watching the Olympics mostly on like the Peacock app, which is great. And you can, but you still do get commercials. And for whatever reason, all I've seen are commercials for Red Bull and then like medicines with horrifying side effects.

1:32:57That's it. Which I guess Red Bull is kind of too. The side effects may include death. Did you know that one symptom of depression is sadness? No. I like when they're like, do not use if you are allergic to this medication. Have you ever even thought about being pregnant? Do not come within 50 feet of this drug. Is there a side effect of depression or a side effect of the medication you take for depression? that one of the potential side effects of the depression medication is depression symptoms like sad. Oh my God. Which is, yeah. So it's like another way of saying our medication doesn't work.

1:33:28Exactly. Exactly. But you know, it does work good old team USA. We won the team's figure skating. So happy about that. No, I wanted the Japanese to win. They were better. But anyway, well, Bill, thank you. This was great. We'll have to have you back at some point. And do we have a winner or loser this week or a pope in memoriam we want to do i guess our our winner is ben affleck for uh continuing that dunkin donuts thing even while making fun of himself for uh still being on that boston shtick as i think is part of the ad someone making fun of him for that and you know i'll say as a native of boston from the actual city of boston by the way not some uh no um i it still works on me a little bit like i still am kind of charmed by it even though he did not have a Boston accent growing up.

1:34:13He's from Cambridge, not Boston. I still kind of like it, so I will probably go watch that ad, even if it is an abomination. Next week, a certain corner of the internet might be excited because we're headed to Brazil. We're going to bone up on our Portuguese to talk about The Secret Agent, which is available to rent now. It just got, I think, put on demand last week. So if you're watching along at home, it should be accessible to you.

1:34:42Critical Darlings is a Blank Check production in association with Vulture. Hosted by Alison Wilmore and Richard Lawson. Produced by Benjamin Frisch. Executive produced by Griffin Newman and Neil Janowitz. Video production and distribution by Anne Victoria Clark, Wolfgang Ruth, and Jennifer Jean.