Green Card with Esther Zuckerman

9:01Griffin Newman:the number one. Juliette. No, no, Binoche. Binoche. The whole thing with Juliette Binoche is anytime you see her in a movie, you're like this is the best movie I've ever seen in my life I had this experience also mothers around the country were captivated by Chocolat yes well that's true they wanted a bite um love her uh yeah of course right you just named her one the French actors who've crossed over it is an interesting list because I'm thinking of like Vincent Cassell right yeah where it's like he crossed over but in America mostly he plays the weasel

9:35David Sims:I was gonna say with the men it's usually kind of that where you're like it's a little Mads Men

9:40Griffin Newman:Jean Reno, he plays the living cigarette.

9:43David Sims:But the Mads Mikkelsen effect where you're like, Hollywood has accepted this guy doing one kind of thing. Yeah, maybe two. Garel has sort of had a little.

9:53Griffin Newman:No, if Garel shows up again, you're just like, who's this molester? Right. I know in Little Women, he has the, but you know, that's sort of a tankless role. Right. There was one French actor who accepted an Oscar with pleasure. And what was his name, Griffin? Jean-Luc. Jean-Luc. Jean-Luc.

10:12David Sims:Jean Duvers. Oh, my God. Jean Duvers. Du Jardin. Jesus. I'm going to help you out here. Jean Du Jardin. Who did he beat for best actor? George Clooney.

10:20Griffin Newman:I guess he just recently won. Brad Pitt. Yeah, right. For Moneyball. He beats... I just like... I recently watched his like win. And the other four guys were like, hmm, heavy hitters. One of them is Demian Bashir, who's a great actor. In our buddy's film. In our friend Chris's film. of a better life. And there's the other one,

10:40David Sims:Gary Oldman, Tinker Tailor. Yeah, pretty good. I mean, pretty good. Pretty good. But that's my example of like, we've talked about it too many times, but Jean Dujardin, a name I know how to say, wins Best Actor. And you're like, you know what? This is kind of a little ready-made for Hollywood. He's making it easy for them to cast him. He's weird cartoon version of a Frenchman.

11:03Griffin Newman:But on the other hand, it's weird that he has an Oscar

11:06David Sims:and a bunch of the guys we just mentioned don't. and he basically does not do any American productions anymore. But also he doesn't speak in the movie. He doesn't. And he did Monuments Men, right? He's more bilingual now than he was when he was doing the Oscar campaign. Also, that movie, like, doesn't exist. It truly is a memory hold film. But he has this small collection of like, I'll do a two scene role in Wolf of Wall Street. I'll do a couple scenes in Monuments Men. And I feel like there's one other film in that period where it was like a supporting ensemble role. And then he has not made any sort of American film in over 10 years.

11:44David Sims:Yeah, I think those might be the only two. Yeah. He's made plenty

11:48Griffin Newman:of other films. He works still in France. He's their... He's a big star. Biggest star. Yeah. He's a big star, certainly. And he did another OSS 117, finally. Right. Yeah. And he did Zorro recently. Did you know that? Yes, I did. A French Zorro. Yes. Jean-Tuc Chardin. Yes.

12:05David Sims:he's like Chris Pratt he's stealing all the characters he was already Lucky Luke he of course originated Brice Dunice what's that? Brice Dunice what's that? he's a surfer from Nice oh that guy sounds silly that was kind of his Wayne's world

12:23Griffin Newman:that broke him out is that like their version of like a kind of right like a Venice Beach kind of dude like I am from Nice this is the Dujard I have tan my sunglasses

12:33David Sims:so it's white around my eyes Anytime I would go to Paris and there'd be a poster for a big comedy film and I'd ask someone, what is this? They'd be like, it's a very specific type of person who lives there.

12:46Griffin Newman:I mean, that's like we have stereotypes too. As a child, I was obsessed with Asterix books, as I've talked about, I'm sure, before. And those are all about ethnic stereotypes, mostly of internal French ones, where I would be like, I don't get the joke. And my dad would be like, people are from Bordeaux or like that. And I'm like, they are? And he's like, I think so. I think that's the joke.

13:09David Sims:And I'm like, okay. Like, bonvenue le chit is like, big businessman has to move to small town to like take care of the operations there. And 90 % of the jokes in that movie are the people in this small town say SH at the end of every word. And it performed like Avatar. Are French people going to be mad at this episode? Probably. What are they not mad about? Probably. Ah, yeah.

13:32Griffin Newman:I lived in your great country. It was nice.

13:35David Sims:But it is an example of like, right, Depp Ardu, if American audiences had familiarity with him, it was like, here's this big like fucking burly man who's doing historical epics and intensity and playing the great characters. And they're like, but in France, we find him charming. Would you believe in France, he's something we wish to kiss you? He's what we call a kiss-wisher. what's our podcast our podcast is called blank check avec Griffin et David je suis Griffin je suis David I'm giving up the French this is a podcast about filmographies directors who have directors

14:18Griffin Newman:who have massive success

14:20David Sims:directors réalisateurs réalisateurs au cinema this is the worst episode we've ever done This is a podcast about filmography's directors who have massive success early on in their careers and are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want. And sometimes those checks clear, and sometimes those checks get interviewed by the immigration agencies.

14:46Griffin Newman:By Neelix from Star Trek Voyager.

14:47David Sims:Baby. Yes. Ethan Phillips. Today, we are talking about a motion picture called Green Card. It is written, directed, and produced by Peter Weir. Yep. I believe it's got a big hunkin' fucking final opening credit card. It's a flex.

15:04Griffin Newman:You're right.

15:05David Sims:And this is kind of his first, in a way, this is his first American blank check. He basically says that he took Witness to figure out how to break through to Hollywood, that this was the dream, his passion project at this moment that he really wanted to make, and the success of Witness granted him, and certainly Dead Poets as well. Mm-hmm. granted him the freedom to make this.

15:30Griffin Newman:It's just so funny if you look at his career, as we will discuss, you don't really see a I've just been waiting to make green card in there. And yet you read that he's like exactly how he feels. Right.

15:42David Sims:He's like, I really liked this script and I want to make it. Which I think is correct because it's a great film. But he's just taken like two assignment jobs.

15:49Griffin Newman:Mosquito Coast and Dead Poets Society, Griff, Esther, to be clear.

15:52David Sims:Well and Witness. So really three. Yeah, he's taken three assignment jobs and he's like, have I proved myself enough that at a lower budget with my casting choices, you let me make the one I want to make? And you're right that it is funny because and so often in these cases, you're like, now can you let me make the ambitious thing with the scary budget that you wouldn't grant me unless I proved myself in other arenas? And he's like, no, I want to make like a pretty contained... Right, pretty cheap. $20 million. I have to imagine 20? The budget is listed at$12.5 million. Okay, so is that USD or francs?

16:32Griffin Newman:USD.

16:33David Sims:I had to ask. I had to ask. Our guest today returned to the show to talk about this rom-com and we can discuss the balance of rom versus com in this movie, which I think is an interesting starting point for conversation. Okay. The great Esther Zuckerman. Hello. Something of an expert on the subject. Yes. I have never seen this movie Neither did I

16:58Griffin Newman:You guys are crazy We're not We're gonna do the wide weekend I think Just FYI I'm just inspecting the box office choices here

17:08David Sims:Okay so just establish that tab And then place it two hours from now Yeah sure Esther you wrote a book on rom-coms I did Is it now available on paperback? No it's never gonna be available It's never gonna be available on paperback Because it's sort of the form factor It's more like a little hardback for yeah but yeah you can still buy it it's still available and one should yes but did not watch Green Card no it didn't really come up in my research like I because I did try to like fill in a lot of like blind spots and somehow Green Card never came up

17:41Griffin Newman:it's a great film that I was introduced to at a young age by my mother because it's a great New York rom-com but I do feel like it's not part of any particular particular movement no or like sort of star narrative or anything like that. And certainly it's by a director who never made a rom-com again. Yeah. So it's just kind of like a funny little thing. It was Oscar nominated. It was a solid hit. Like yada, yada. You know, like, it's not like it was a forgotten movie. That's the wildest thing. But it is sort of forgotten now. I think it is. That's crazy. I think it is. I mean, it's interesting.

18:13I was... I'm right here. That's what we're here to do. David is... And you are sort of carrying the torch, I feel like, for this movie. I love this movie. My mom showed me this movie when I was a kid.

18:20Griffin Newman:This is just like a Sims family classic. But I was like, for instance, I was at a, I was watching the Super Bowl with some friends, some very film oriented friends. Okay.

18:32David Sims:Yeah. Our friend Rob was there. Rob was there. Allison was there. Spike, Marty, Francis. I mean, and now our friend Rob is someone who has seen literally everything. The great Rob Shearer. Rob Shearer.

18:46Griffin Newman:I mean, God bless Rob, who is our friend. He is, you know, certified. Psychotic. He goes to see movies where I'm like, I've never heard of this. He's like, well, let's do one show time at like the Regal Essex at 11 a.m. He's like movie going Pac-Man. He is like the king of Cinematrix. Like he sends me his grids every day and I'm like, are you cheating? And he's like not cheating. He just has like an insane memory and he had not seen it. And Allison had not seen it. And, you know, I think it is sort of memory hold a little bit. I agree.

19:17David Sims:I think David's a little right that it might have to do with the fact that this basically becomes just like a blip in the 90s Annie McDowell kind of arc. But it's before. That's the thing about, like, which I honestly didn't even like really clock. It's before her rom-com arc. We're going to put a pin in this. Yeah. Sorry. But I agree with you. That's what I think is fascinating. And I just want to be able to fully zoom out and talk about the Annie McDowell thing. The Depardieu thing is so much what's selling this movie of like, we're trying to make you like this guy, which worked at the time, but then because it did not last, that also feels like a weird dead end.

19:56David Sims:And then as you said, David, like we didn't make a movie before this with this kind of vibe, never made a film after this with this kind of vibe. Not really, yeah. Despite coming from comedy, this is a very gentle comedy, is not one hard on laughs. And his movies that have comedic elements tend to be harder comedic elements. than this.

20:15Griffin Newman:Yeah. It's, yeah, I'm looking at McDowell again. Very interesting career.

20:19David Sims:I had completely, let's just do McDowell now then. So the film stars Andy McDowell. I had completely flipped in my mind that the reason she is so bad in Four Weddings and a Funeral is because it was before she kind of figured out her thing through working with better directors after. No, it's the exact opposite.

20:39Griffin Newman:No, the whole thing with Andy McDowell in Four Weddings is that it will never be explained. I'm serious. No, truly. I'm just laughing because I thought you were going to explain it and then you were like, it can't be. I will run it for you right now, quick. Okay? She breaks out in Greystroke, Tarzan Legend of the Apes where she is Jane. It's dumb. Famously dumb,

20:59David Sims:but she's gorgeous. And it's like, okay, on Jane. Ben, producer Ben, she is cast as Jane in a live-action Tarzan movie, big Warner Brothers production because of her look. Yeah. She's very young. And she is so bad in the film that they hired Glenn Close to re-dub all of her. Well, it's also because she's like, you know, she's got the southern thing. But she's landing immediately with this framework of like, well, she's nice to look at.

21:23Griffin Newman:I guess so, sure. She has a small role in St. Elmo's Fire, which is a big movie for that generation, but it's obviously a stupid movie. In 1989, she's in Sex, Lies, and Vigil. Three years later. Probably, yeah, she did a little TV in between, but not much. Probably kind of her best role. She's amazing in that movie. Yeah, she's incredible in it. Yeah. Makes Soderbergh look like a genius. A huge movie. She's so effective in it. Yeah. Then she's in Green Card, which she absolutely rocks. Just thunderous. Yeah. 82 points. I agree. Kobe. She's awesome. Just fucking crazy. And then she's in The Object of Beauty, which is...

21:56You're skipping right over Hudson Hawk.

21:58Griffin Newman:No, I am not. Oh, okay. Sorry. That's next. Object of Beauty, which I've never heard of, but it's a rom-com with Malkovich with the poster looks like this. Yeah. I'm not turned on. Me neither. I don't really know. It might not be a rom... It might be a rom... No, it says it's a romantic comedy about the fine art of thievery. Okay Then Hudson Hawk Which is a huge bomb I've never I've never seen I have seen Hudson Hawk How is it? I think it's pretty fun That's the one where people are kind of like Oh it's not so bad I think it's yeah I mean it's not Is she good to it? I mean she's barely Like I mean she's It's a nothing fun She plays a nun Who falls in love with him Who wouldn't?

22:32He's Hudson Hawk He's Hudson Hawk He's saying You know he and Danny Aiello Sang throughout it

22:37David Sims:She's one of the only people in the movie Who doesn't get to be fun Yeah Like so much of She just gets to have a crush on... That movie's embarrassing reputation is that everyone's like swinging for the fences and every character's overconceived. And she's kind of playing the straight character.

22:50Griffin Newman:She plays herself in the player little funny cameo. She's in a movie called Deception, pretty forgotten movie with Neeson. Sort of like a thriller, whatever. She's in Groundhog Day. Incredible. Phenomenal. Incredible. So charming. You're in love with her. Yeah. She's in Shortcuts. Really incredible in Shortcuts. Agreed. Like, and everyone's good in that, but she's kind of one of my favorite parts of it.

23:10David Sims:And you're like, great. Annie McDowell has totally figured out how to act. She's arrived as a movie star.

23:15Griffin Newman:One of the most important romantic comedies ever made. Like where everyone is on fire good. That is a huge hit and gets nominated for best picture. And she's weirdly flattened.

23:24David Sims:It doesn't make it. She's a contest winner plucked off the street. I don't think it's entirely her fault. I don't think it's... I mean, I... My point is it's clearly not her fault. Yeah, I mean, yeah. Something happens. I love Four Weddings and the Funeral more than any other movie. And I think it's just, Part of it is that she's up against Crispin Saad Thomas, who is just like, again, you know, like, I don't know, slam dunking the ball. And she's just so out of place in it.

23:53Griffin Newman:What's it about? Four weddings and a funeral? Have you never seen? No. It's about... Are you setting us up to say four weddings and a funeral? I sure am. It's about a group of friends. It's about the lives of a group of friends set over four weddings and one funeral that they attend. Those are the only events you see. Vogue.

24:10David Sims:A couple years of their life connected by... And she is an American... And it's like a will-they-won't-they romance that Hugh Grant and her have. Yeah. She's an American... I think she works for Vogue. And she's very stylish. And she shows up at the first wedding and they sort of... They have sex, actually, at that first wedding. They sure do. But kind of assume they'll never see each other again. And then one of the... Yeah. No spoilers.

24:32Griffin Newman:And she's hot. And the whole point is she's this sort of mysterious object of affection. but she and Grant just don't really have much chemistry and it's sort of weird and it kind of doesn't matter

24:44David Sims:the movie rules it weirdly doesn't affect the movie that badly but yet everyone comes out of it going why is she so bad

24:52Griffin Newman:and then she her career dies like she keeps making movies but like she never was like a big deal again when it should have been like great you were just in a huge hit like get rid and she's in of course Michael a film we've covered on this podcast yes she's in the muse She's in your favorite film of all time, Muppets from Space.

25:10David Sims:Yeah, she's pretty good in it. Can't say I remember. First of all, do you like, do you actually like Muppets? I have a lot of issues with that film. Yeah, it's bad. But she plays a rival local news reporter who Miss Piggy is trying to beat to the scoop of alien existence.

25:26Griffin Newman:She's never stopped working. Like she's, you know, working all the time. She has produced, of course, the Hollywood's great ingenue now, Margaret Qualley. I thought she was excellent in Magic Mike XXL.

25:39David Sims:Loved her in that. Did you like her in Goodrich?

25:41Griffin Newman:She has a couple scenes there.

25:43David Sims:We talked about that movie on the show. We did. I do feel like every time I see Annie McDowell show up in that size of role, in like a dramedy, I'm like, she's really kind of aged into something interesting. I remember liking her in Ready or Not, the horror film. Very fun. Same.

25:59Griffin Newman:Obviously, she's in Beauty Shop, your favorite film.

26:01David Sims:Not. Your favorite film?

26:03Griffin Newman:Not my favorite film. She says for your FYI.

26:05David Sims:Or does Alicia Silverstone say that? I think Alicia Silverstone says that. Yeah. She is quite good in the limited series, which I'm sure you guys don't watch, Made, which was... I remember that existed. Which was, it was Margaret's... It was a role for Margaret that she plays her mom in, and she's very done. I mean, I think the beautiful thing about... Oh, M-A-I-D. Yeah. Yes, I remember that. I think the beautiful thing about, you know, I mean, she looks incredible. You gotta go to the club for it. Yeah, and she looks incredible and she has gone totally natural. Like, she has gray hair. Yes. She, like, if she's had work done, it's like super barely.

26:42She has aged incredibly. It is one of the things. She feels, and she now has this, I mean, I guess she always had it, but she feels so earthy now in a way that's very interesting.

26:51David Sims:It's one of the things I like most about seeing her show up and stuff now. Yeah. It is crazy that it's just a crazy, weird career. She also has the best hair of any human that ever lived. I mean there's that moment in this movie where he's like where she puts her hair up to go to dinner and he's like your hair looks better down

27:10Griffin Newman:here's another reason I think this movie is a little forgotten what year did it come out guys? what's another movie that came out in 1990? Pretty Woman there was actually I was doing a little bit of research I'm sure that which is in my opinion a far inferior film to this film I don't really like Pretty Woman that much I appreciate the phenomenon I'm not here to deny it. I didn't mean to step on JJ's toes, but I did do a little Googling. I didn't do that deep to Google. Uh-oh!

27:41David Sims:I'm going to have to fire you? We've been trying to get JJ to Google. We've been asking him for use it. No, but there was a story in the New York Times literally about how Green Card... I can't remember which came first, but like Green... I think Pretty Woman came first. Well, yes. I think Pretty Woman came first because there was a story in the New York Times that was basically like, oh this is trying to do the pretty woman thing and it's not working it's not working as well it was almost framed as they were trying to copy it but it was like

28:09Griffin Newman:Pretty Woman was March 1990 and was obviously this runaway success for the whole year and Green Card comes out Christmas time 1990 it's a funny article I read it sort of confused almost like why would you even compare these two movies you know well it's got two people in it it does have two people Green Card, the literally... Oh, Karen James wrote this. Interesting. Oh, Karen James. Karen James, our colleague at the New York Film Critics Circle. Green Card Apes Pretty Woman was the headline. Green Card was not conceived as daughter of Pretty Woman, although it seems that way now. Pretty Woman, she's walking down the street.

28:49Griffin Newman:You know? Also, they were both touchstone. Ben like that. Yes, they're both touchstone. They're both Touchstone, and part of it was that it wasn't that, oh, the movies were the same, but that Touchstone was trying to market it the same way. Sure, they gave us a little kind of poster.

29:06David Sims:But I also think there was this codification of what a Touchstone movie was, which was really important to the film ecosystem for a while. I remember a Mad Magazine article in the early 90s.

29:18Griffin Newman:A kid who devoured that. You read it for the articles. I read it for the articles.

29:20David Sims:I only read it for the articles.

29:22Griffin Newman:Sergio Aragonius, you tore it out. I don't want to see it. Sorry.

29:26David Sims:Those spies are up to no good. We cannot support the spies. Get out of here, Antonio Prohas. He, there was an article that was, what if Walt Disney was awakened from cryosleep? And it was a multi-page illustrated comic story of Walt Disney being shown around the 90s. Right, like how things have changed. State of Walt Disney by Michael Eisner. Right. And it's saying, and here we have touchstone pictures. And he goes, what's touchstone pictures? and he goes, Touchstone Pictures is our label for films with more adult themes that we could never release under Walt Disney Pictures. Like, for example, Pretty Woman, a movie about like a financial maven who falls in love with a...

30:08David Sims:Ho-ho-ho. A prostitute. Right, right. And he goes, oh, and at the end, she's like sent back to her life of struggle and he's like, no, he basically like marries her and makes her a princess. Like the bit that they were sort of found a way to make movies that almost had... had a Disney arc to them. Right. Despite being for grownups. I think of Touchstone films with a lot of warmth. Yeah. Because there was, not just because of the air it represented, but it did feel like Touchstone had a lot of good, mid-budget, kind of gooey, movie star comfort films. I think of the warmth because when lightning strikes.

30:43David Sims:Hot.

30:44Griffin Newman:And that's what Touchstone is.

30:45David Sims:You don't want to touch the stone if lightnings hit it.

30:47Griffin Newman:You don't.

30:48David Sims:I think that was some of... No, I do too. You see that logo and you're like, ah. Yeah.

30:51Griffin Newman:100%.

30:52David Sims:I think that's sort of maybe what people were starting to comment on is like, is this just going to be their fucking beat now? And, you know, up until that point, when they found it, Eisner and Katzenberg, their whole strategy was like, get diminished value stars. Yeah, sure. Like a sort of a B-level guy. Right. They were like, Bette Midler, five picture deal. Richard Dreyfuss, five picture deal. It was so easy. No, it was either people who had flops they were too afraid to recover from. Yeah, or... Or had just kind of like alienated too much of the industry and you could get them at a bargain.

31:29David Sims:No, Richard Dreyfuss

31:30Griffin Newman:wasn't either of those, right?

31:31David Sims:He hadn't had any flops or alienated anybody. No. I think it's down and out in Beverly Hills is Dreyfuss, Nolte, and Midler who were all like fucking bargain basements, clearance, must-go movie stars. And that movie opened to number one at the box office. And they were like, see, our fucking thing works. The trailer for Green Book, which is very deranged. I assume you mean Green Card. Thank you. Yes.

31:56Griffin Newman:Because nobody does an accent in Green Book. You're right. That film. No one's doing a kind of like a big ethnic sort of accent. Let me correct myself. No one's eating a pizza.

32:04David Sims:The trailer for Green Book is sensitive, profound. Thank you. Uproariously funny. Right. Yep. And it has a beating heart. A beating heart at the center named Linda Cardellini. The trailer for Green Card is insane. I haven't seen the trailer. It's a peak 90s trailer. I didn't watch the trailer. It was on the Blu-ray. It felt like it was 12 minutes long.

32:24Griffin Newman:She's a horticulturalist. He, we actually, it's hard to fucking tell what he does. Who knows what he does? He's maybe a composer, but maybe he's not. It's a lot of that,

32:32David Sims:but there's so much voiceover talking through every plot. He's heaps in the pod. She needs the apartment. But this is the one, the part I want to call out. Touchstone Pictures presents France's most acclaimed actor, Gerard Depardieu, and America's newest film sensation, Andy McDowell, in the story of two people, yada, yada, yada. Like, the wind-up on that fucking trailer.

32:55Griffin Newman:I mean, I guess I get it because it's like, neither of them are household names, but they are both, you know, you can present them credibly as like, these are new, exciting people. We need to explain to you why these are movie stars. She just won the fucking, you know, in a movie that won the Palme d 'Or. And he is from France. Yes. Which is cultured. But do you think, like, the sex... It's not a handyman De Niro. Like, do you think the sex lies in videotape was at all of a selling point for her at this point. That was a big movie. I know it was a big hit, but it's interesting, I guess, to... Sex, Lies and Video Tape made more money than Green Card.

33:31Griffin Newman:Sex, Lies and Video Tape was a big old hit. But it's interesting also, though, to transition from that into sort of like sweetheart territory.

33:40David Sims:Which is also why I think they're not... That's sort of what I'm more mean, which is like, you know. A little sugar to the salt here. I think that's why they're not naming. They're not total sugar. They're not going and from Sex, Lies, and Video Day.

33:53Griffin Newman:You know that movie about filming people who fuck? Right.

33:55David Sims:They're saying America's newest film sensation. And you're like, oh, right. They let you fill in the blank because they're trying to frame her a different way. They did a good job. We love Andy McDowell for about five or six years. And then we kind of get sick of her. I just think the tagline for this title, which I butchered. But it's a great tagline. But it's the thing that like 90 studio exec dreams were made of. Of like walking in and you're like, Like, here's the poster. One movie star holding another movie star. And you're like, you're promising me two movie stars? And then you're like, yes, TBD.

34:26David Sims:Probably. The title is Green Card. And the tagline is the story of two people who got married, met, and then fell in love. And you're like, you've just told me all three acts. I see the movie in my head.

34:39Griffin Newman:And it's like everyone knows what a green card marriage is. No one's thought to do the movie yet. I will say, though, I think what's interesting about the movie is the three acts come are more subtle and not exactly what you would expect from that tagline. Like I'm expecting, I was watching and I was expecting like, you know, oh, there's one night when they, you know, they, they get drunk on the beach. Yeah. Yeah. It's a raft and says, fuck you, Linda. Sorry. Keep going. Sorry. Was that send help?

35:18David Sims:Have you sent help yet? Oh, yeah. I sent help with David. Yeah, I sent help with David. I love send help. But, yeah, you're expecting... There's that scene where they each go to bed in her apartment for the first night. And, you know, he's bare-chested and burly. And he asks her what side of the bed she sleeps on. And she looks at the door. And you sort of, you know, in a more tropey movie, you know, she walks out the door. She sees him. They, you know, they kiss. They maybe do something else. But it doesn't happen that way. And I think that's a good thing about this movie. But it also makes it a little bit more of an otter duck than you're expecting.

36:05I found this movie odd. I loved the ending. The ending is so good.

36:12Griffin Newman:The ending is incredible. The ending is kind of like, you're like, oh, fuck. The ending is so good. This whole thing made sense. Yeah, that any sort of reservations I had went away. But I still have my problems. I also have problems with Dipar too.

36:27David Sims:That's my thing as well. It's a little bit of a hurdle for me to get over. And it's not just because we know now he is a bad person.

36:36Griffin Newman:He is a bad person. He's a bad person. He's quite a terrible person. It seems fairly definitive that he's... Especially become quite the ogre. Yes. Can I now tell my story about... Please. My most recent Depardieu story was I was in Cannes last year, and I got an email from an editor of the New York Times asking me to write a story on... His conviction had just been announced. When you say conviction, he has been accused and put on trial several times for various things. But he finally got... But there was one that got happened. There was his sexual assault conviction, actually. He actually was convicted.

37:13David Sims:There have truly just been decades of stories about Gerard Depardieu. And even in this moment in 1990, where it's like Cyrano's getting him in a Best Actor nomination. He's starring in Green Card. He's doing his American press, like his first real run of like, is are we ready for France's biggest movie star? He says like seven insanely objectionable things in interviews that were litigated for weeks in the press in a way that like feels like our modern discourse cycle. Yeah. Back then, people would kind of move on for shit. But this, he was found guilty of sexual assault in Last Met.

37:48Griffin Newman:And was he getting a pass because he was foreign? Well, this is what Esther's about to tell you. Well, this is like, yeah. So they were like, can you write a story about like Khan reacting to it? And obvious, he's the king of Khan. Like, you know, you walk down the street, there are pictures of him. He's been in like so many movies that were at the festival. And so basically, my task was to go around and find people to talk. I got the assignment. I went to a party. And I was like, I'll search on the beach. It was very fancy. It was very can. Shirley, I'll find people. And I sort of started putting out feelers with American colleagues.

38:27Like, do you know any French colleagues that would like be willing to speak? And a lot of the thing was like, no, no, no, no. Like, we cannot speak about Gerard. And I finally just sort of was like going around listening and seeing if I heard French accents and going up to people.

38:41Griffin Newman:Profiling people, Esther. Well, yeah. And so I found, you know, like a publicist who's like, you know, and the quotes were exactly what you would expect, which is like, he's probably guilty, probably, I found the quote, probably guilty, probably being a very bad man. But he's also been, he has been also more respectful, a man who has achieved an unbelievable work in many domains. And it's just like, it was so like walking around and everyone's blowing cigarette smoke in my face. It was just like the most, but I think there's been a, yeah, years and years and years of this happening and being like, whoa, but he's Gerard.

39:17This is what Gerard does. This is fine.

39:20Griffin Newman:Francis Hall response to me too made America look like fucking woke point 10. You know, like it's just like where they're always just like, yes, but he's a good actor. You know, and I'm being, I'm doing a dumb accent and I'm being like silly and dismissive. But it is true that when you like, like artists would just like sign petitions randomly defending people. And it's like, why? And they're like, well, he is such a celebrity. Like, how can you attack art? Yeah. This is, you know, you are lynching this man, you know. Like former presidents. Right.

39:49David Sims:The tone is very often like, you know, who knows if these things are true. And even if they are true, such things happen. Boys will be boys. Right. You know, blah, blah, blah. But what we cannot deny is that Gerard gave us 50 years of film history. Yeah. And how dare you threaten to erase that? Like the French's response. They do not care. Like he was found guilty and they were like.

40:13Griffin Newman:I think it's getting a little more serious. Like I do feel like there's been genuine cultural like sort of. And there have been people who have taken like an incredible stand. Like Adele Hanel.

40:25David Sims:But it's basically only this current younger generation of French filmmakers and actors who are actually pushing back on the thing. and even so have experienced insane career repercussions. But yeah, no, their attitude is just like, it felt like what they saw was, oh, so what? People say a story about Kevin Spacey and now Kevin Spacey movies no longer exist? They cannot do that to our culture. And they get so defensive about like... Honestly, they feel that way about like Kevin Spacey too. Yeah. He was all over Cannes last year too.

40:58Griffin Newman:The other thing is that he became this like comical, like cube of a man. Yes. Who not only was like credibly accused of basically just being a total creep, you know, for decades, but also was like, and I will pay no taxes. Right. And I can piss anywhere on an airplane that I want. And, you know, it was just like, he was just this like cartoon villain. Yes.

41:23David Sims:But he was given like such cultural indulgence, right? That you're like, this guy is just like.

41:29Griffin Newman:He randomly like wrote a letter about how Putin is good. Like, he was really freelancing out into other areas of evil, like in the 2010s and 2020s. Like, kind of like the sort of Steven Seagal approach of like, I'm flooding the zone. Yes.

41:43David Sims:Bad in every direction. And also, like, my uncle, who's an actor in France, is just like, yeah, it's like one of the open secrets that Gerard has used in earpiece for like 25 years. Even when he's doing like stage, when he's doing TV, when he's doing film, like he's a lazy piece of shit and he doesn't learn his lines. That is me quoting an angry working actor in France at like how much they let Depardieu get away with. And basically would say like he shows up and he doesn't know what the character is and the audience applauds. Like he just became so deeply tied reputationally to the idea of French cinema.

42:19David Sims:Like this is our living legend and nothing he could do would distort the sort of enormity of all of it. So it just made so many fucking movies.

42:28Griffin Newman:a ton of movies a bunch in Hollywood but way more in France yes and he sort of in every genre right he sort of successfully morphed from young you know interesting actor to leading man to like older comic actor to Obelix supporting to Obelix right like he even I mean when they were making the Asterix movie they were like there is one Obelix and it is your I remember

42:51David Sims:no one else

42:52Griffin Newman:can play this man

42:53David Sims:I remember reading an Asterix book in like the early 90s and in the front page, they had a caricature of Gerard Depardieu as Obelix. And I was like, why'd they make it Depardieu? And my mom was like, because they just know he's going to play him in a movie at some point.

43:10Griffin Newman:Because like the asterisk

43:11David Sims:keeps changing in those movies and Depardieu is Obelix for the first four.

43:15Griffin Newman:Like he didn't change.

43:16David Sims:Here's how I would put it, Ben. Okay. Imagine if the biggest star in Hollywood. And I know in your head, you're probably thinking John Goodman, right?

43:27Griffin Newman:Yes.

43:28David Sims:was not asked to play live action Fred Flintstone, was basically asked to play live action Barney Rubble. Yeah. He did it like... Obelix is sort of the Barney. Ten times. Right. And the guy playing live action Barney Rubble had over decades been seen as the nation's greatest heartthrob. Right. Our most intense dramatic actor. I mean... Like all of it, you know? And you're like, now kids are like, yeah! Obelix!

44:04David Sims:David? Yes? Got an intentional air about you today.

44:08Griffin Newman:Well, I'm more intentional about what I wear day to day. Oh, interesting. I like to lean into pieces that feel easy, comfortable, and put together. I'm sure you could get those from anywhere, right? No, quints. Look, really, I am wearing quints right now.

44:21David Sims:Listeners, he's showing tag on Maine.

44:23Griffin Newman:It's been my go-to because very clean fits. Very nice fabrics. They don't feel like cheap fabrics.

44:30David Sims:I hate dirty fits. I hate cheap fabrics.

44:32Griffin Newman:We're in, you know, the weather's getting warmer. I really rely on my Quince polo shirts for the kind of like, exactly like a formal enough piece of clothing that I can go to the office, but it's comfy. Yes, because we do have a dress code here at Blanket Productions. So they've got those 100 % Pima cotton tees with a softness. They got a feel to enjoy.

44:54David Sims:And for the listener at home, David is touching the fabric.

44:56Griffin Newman:Pants hit that same balance, relaxed and comfortable. I got to tell you, I recently had a birthday and my in-laws sent me a Quince gift card because they know I like Quince so much and I am itching to spend it. That's a really strong endorsement. That's an endorsement, right? Yes. Everything at Quince, it's priced 50 to 80 % less than what you find in similar brands because they work with those ethical factories. They cut out the middlemen, getting premium materials without the markup. I've got the cashmere zip. David is showing me. Oh, nice. Cashmere zip sweater. I like that sweater. It's very nice.

45:26Griffin Newman:Yeah. I wear it all the time. It's got pockets. So, refresh your everyday with the luxury you actually use. Head to quince.com slash check for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada, too. That's quince.com slash check for free shipping and 365-day returns. quince.com slash check.

45:57Griffin Newman:All right, I'm going to open the dossier before we can return to the sort of where Depardieu was in his career for Green Car. But I want to open the dossier. Witness, Peter Weir. He's transitioned to Hollywood. He made a massive hit called Witness. Wins two Academy Awards. John Book. His name is John Book. His name is John Book. And he's got to go to Amish company. He witnessed something. You like Witness? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Witness the Fitness? Witness the Fitness? It's a British song. People will understand. Oh, my God. His follow-up, however. I thought I was like, what? Witness the Fitness. His follow-up, The Mosquito Coast, not successful.

46:29Griffin Newman:I like that movie. I do too. But sort of went over a little tepidly at the time, doesn't really get awards and so on and so forth. Peter, we're very frustrated by this. Thinks about getting out of Hollywood altogether. And he hasn't written a movie since Year of the Living Dangerously. That's the last time he's credited on a screenplay. But so then he's just kind of like, I think I should just write something for myself. It can be something commercial, but like maybe this is what I'm frustrated about right now. Green Card is kind of, he says, it's like, it's I got to get back in the game.

47:02David Sims:His movies have been getting more epic too. He was working in extreme landscapes, period, different cultures.

47:08Griffin Newman:Yeah. The way he puts it, I was reviving something Frank Capra had perfected, the romantic comedy, A Light Snack. I do love A Light Snack. Girl dinner, as they say. Is our rom-coms now girl dinner? Our rom-coms girl dinner. Now, of course, rom-coms have to be about FBI agents who are rumbled and it turns out they're going to do a spy mission.

47:28David Sims:There was one... Is there another one? There was one announced, I think, yesterday. A new Eddie Murphy, and I'm astonished to say this, streaming movie. Wait, wait, wait. Eddie Murphy wants to make a straight-to-streaming movie? It won't be anonymous, though. He has some weird medical condition where if they project him onto a big screen... He melts. Yeah. Like Alex Mack. Yeah. A bottle of metal. I'm just waiting for him to start to become the first actor with an exclusive deal with Delta Airlines. No, he's going to be the first actor who's like, they AI'd me. I'm a fucking AI now. Yeah. They can just put me in anything now.

48:00David Sims:I watched his last one, The Drop, which sucks. Eva Longoria plays his wife in it and is quite good. They've announced that, of course, they now need to re-team as if the public's demanding another... Wait, he made a movie called The Drop? Or it's called The Take? There's another movie called The Drop. Yeah, because The Drop

48:13Griffin Newman:is the one with Tom Hardy. Maybe it's called The Pickup. And then there's Drop. Right. Which is the phone one. Yes. Looks like Pete Davidson's in this one too. Uh-huh. Kiki Palmer. Was Pete Davidson? Evil Longoria. Was he playing a character that's like really different from like his general vibe as a guy?

48:28David Sims:David, you joke. I would argue the problem with that movie is he is playing a character that is way too different from his general vibe as a guy. Oh, okay. Fair enough. It is Pete Davidson as, I can't get laid. I don't know how to talk to girls. And I'm like, are you fucking winking at the cameras this whole movie?

48:43Griffin Newman:But I feel like Eddie Murphy looks at him and is like, is that his deal? like Eddie Murphy's just like so on planet famous that he's like what's this nerds deal?

48:51David Sims:That's the energy of the movie is like Pete Davidson making Eddie Murphy look at text exchanges. And he's like I don't fucking know. Shut up. So you didn't like it? No, it sucks. Okay. It's a movie for idiots and losers. But he's announced another streaming film of course. Yves Longoria's kind of good in it. Okay. And then it's like they gotta re-team. The chemistry was so undeniable on Amazon Prime that they're making a new movie and it was called like parental attachment style or something like that.

49:17Griffin Newman:I saw, I believe I saw an article or whatever. And I was like, okay, relationship. Attachment parenting. Attachment parenting.

49:24David Sims:And I was like, okay, okay. That's like, sounds low concept enough. It's like a green card-esque title. Is it just about the two parents empty nesting? No, it's about they get

49:34Griffin Newman:tied into the mob. Right. Relationship is put to the ultimate test when they're forced to counsel a crime boss's family while being held hostage.

49:43David Sims:Great. Sounds like it has a bunch of fucking guns in it. Probably has a lot of guns. At least a couple guns. The first sentence of that, I was like, is it just going to be Eva Longori and Eddie Murphy have to figure out what their marriage is like now that their kids have left the house?

49:55Griffin Newman:Professional comedy, yes.

49:56David Sims:Right, and just let them talk to each other. A light snack. A light snack. It sounds like a light snack. Can we talk a little sort of like larger rom-com theory here, Esther? Okay, what do you mean? Well, I just, the modes of rom-com and sort of like what we each believe in in terms of like what makes a fruitful rom-com. Okay. There is a thing this movie does that I value greatly and I realized while watching it how few examples I could think of of this being utilized, which is I am often frustrated by the rom-com that is predicated on a lie. Yeah, sure. You know the lie is going to get busted.

50:35David Sims:They fall in love and it's just kind of an annoying tension until they get to the conversation and they blow up and someone has to come apologize for being mad about a thing they should have been mad about in the first place. Right? This movie is, they're in the same line.

50:49Griffin Newman:Yeah.

50:50David Sims:Yes, right. They meet each other basically forming a line. Right, right. But they're 100 % on the same page within that, which is so much better as a kind of like pressure cooker for tensions to develop. Yeah. I mean, I think, I do think there are other examples um though nothing is coming to mind I'm sure if I thought about it harder um but I think the the situation with the like the rom-com of deception is always hard because then somebody needs to forgive someone and you always have and then and sometimes it works and sometimes it like absolutely doesn't and that's like but it's been I mean and that has been like for instance like the um the Doris Day Rock Hudson rom-coms, like two of them, not the last one, but like are all like, he's pretending to be a Texas guy and she's like a working woman and like literally, you know, at the end of Pillow Talk, he literally like carries her out of bed and like, you know, brings her home.

51:55And it's like, okay, she's fallen in love with him, but do we really believe this? And the movie has to end,

52:02Griffin Newman:so that's what we have to do. The movie has to end, so that's what we have to do. And obviously, it always seems more fair when either the lie is so outrageous or there's so much of a double sort of standard. like I think like I think sometimes the lies work when you know it's for instance a like Lady Eve where she sort of double crosses him and then double crosses him again and it's like triple crosses yeah I don't know I don't know numbers I but um how many crossing I'm gonna give you some other ones yeah while you were sleeping yeah the most insane built-on-a-lie things ever where you're like, I love this movie, except for she will eventually have to reveal, I am a psychopath.

52:53Griffin Newman:Like, I had been behaving like... I mean, you've got mail. Sleepless in Seattle and you've got mail both have this. Yeah. I'm trying to think what else. Well, does Sleepless in Seattle actually have it outside of the fact that she... It doesn't really... She's like stalking him, but like, you know, she doesn't really lie to him. No, that's more she's just being insane. That's more she's being insane. You've got mail is more the like, he actually lies to her. He's not telling her something.

53:20David Sims:What's interesting to me is Lady Eve, which I think is as good as any rom-com ever made, does the triple lie at least. And yet it almost feels like it pushing it that far is a commentary on how many rom-coms were already built upon lies at that point. Yeah. Like it feels like the postmodern version of like, they're just going to keep fucking lying to each other. And then spoilers, the end of that movie is the guy being like, I don't even fucking care what reality is anymore. I mean, but the thing is, is they break up in the first place in that movie because he is mad. He actually is mad at her for lying to him.

53:54And then she gets pissed at him. So she gets because she actually does fall in love. So then she lies to him again. And then he's just so confused. And that's the screwball thing that happens all the time, which is like they just get so confused at the end. Like someone just gets so confused at the end. And they're like, whatever, let's fuck.

54:11David Sims:But his takeaway is also like the energy of you as a person is who I want to be with and who I am in love with. I'll work out whoever the fuck you actually are later. Yeah. Is kind of. Yeah. Yeah. And I feel like there's some, you know, I mean, this is a shitty movie. Well, it's not a shitty movie, but like. This movie?

54:30Griffin Newman:No. Oh, the movie you're about to. The movie I'm about to say. I do think there are some that try to do like double deception. like you know I don't like this movie very much but like how to lose a guy in 10 days that's a classic they're both lying about different things they're both lying about different things and so you're sort of like but I mean I just don't think that movie is that good

54:49David Sims:no I think the unified lie is an underused power move yeah and I think it's also because the best rom-coms are there is a circumstantial reason these two people need to be together yeah there's a reason they can't leave this is like forged in fire and you can have the arc of like they're driving each other crazy and then they start to connect and then they realize their feelings and they hurt each other in a way that doesn't feel like hey why wouldn't you walk out the front door why are you still bothering with this guy i mean and there have been some more we have to date you know to like more recent ones

55:25Griffin Newman:it's such a romance novel trope yeah like we have to fake dating to in order to but i think what's interesting about this is that also they don't they don't getting into it they don't think they have to spend any time together whereas the fake dating thing has is often oh we have to pretend like we're in love and so then we actually fall in love this event gets there eventually but they

55:48David Sims:literally are like bye once again it's why the tagline's good because they meet they fucking no i mean they get married then they meet they don't exchange pleasantries until after they Mary. And it's like so long for the road. I guess I should know what your name was.

56:05Griffin Newman:Peter Weir. Great quote. I thought Green Card was a film that should be seen at 5 o 'clock in the afternoon. The perfect sort of late matinee. I never thought of it as a night out sort of film. Initially, he wrote it for an Englishman. Right? Like that was his concept. Right? It would happen one night. He put it in a bottom drawer because he said just kind of felt irrelevant. Felt like it had been done before. Like I was writing it for like a Dudley Moore. You know? Gerard Depardieu. He's told many different stories of how he sort of first noticed him. But it's basically like I kept seeing this guy in movies.

56:39Griffin Newman:Now, the movie he cites the most often is Danton, the great Andre Wadja movie about the French Revolution, which is mostly, which rocks, especially if you love the French Revolution, like I do. But is a lot of sweaty, hot Depardieu as George Danton in his final days, basically like going like, oh, they are going to execute me. this is so bad and then yelling at everyone why would you do that to me

57:04David Sims:this was part of the riddle for American audiences is they'd be like they think he's hot

57:10Griffin Newman:a little bit but I look I'm sorry like I think Gerard Depardieu is so hot I like you know 90s 80s and 90s Depardieu yes absolutely like he I find him incredibly magnetic I kind of get it in this movie I don't get it I super get it in like Last Metro and shit like that like all that stuff earlier Depardieu I think here he feels inching to... That's Quasimodo. I mean, the hair is full. Slouching towards Quasimodo. He's full of crap. Because he's always got this cloak on. It just makes him look like some... I know.

57:48David Sims:We've said this about other actors before, and I just want to say, as a hyperbolic person, I'm about to say it and mean it as the ultimate. he has the most face of any person ever. There's so many crevices and contours. It's insane.

58:05Griffin Newman:So many directions it goes in. There's no way you can point a camera on him and that face not taking up like the full frame. No. It's just like...

58:13David Sims:It's like a Frank Gehry building or something. You're trying to figure out how it's like set up.

58:18Griffin Newman:You know, it's interesting. His son, you know, Guillaume de Partier, who died very young, right? who he had with Elise Ventre, his sort of very beautiful wife, was sort of like, what if you kind of programmed a computer to make a sort of more conventionally handsome Depardieu, but you don't lose the nose? You still see him in it, but it's kind of like, this is like the sanded off Gerard. I think it was Let the Sunshine In. Sure. The Claire Denis film where he comes

58:47David Sims:in at the very end. A movie about how French men are. Normal! A movie I love. Great movie. And ends with France's most normal man being her therapist, her like spiritual. Yeah, yeah, it's a good twist. And he shows up just in a close-up, like jump scare, cut in. He's like a psychic. He's like reading her fortune. Right, like 80, 90 minutes in, I swear to God for a second, I went like, is this movie in 3D? Just looking at his face in 2015 or whatever. And you saying like Peter Weir was like, who's this French man who keeps popping up on my screens? A little bit. I can't shake this guy. He wasn't buying tickets for Depardieu movies.

59:26David Sims:There were just Depardieu movies playing on the screen next over and his nose slid in.

59:31Griffin Newman:I invade. So he writes this screenplay with Depardieu. He doesn't tell the actor I'm thinking about you or anything like that. He's just kind of like, all right, the Englishman thing is not sparking for me. What if I wrote it for a Frenchman? He's afraid of calling him up to say that he did this. So instead, he took a picture of him that ran with an interview he gave in the local paper, and he kept it on his desk. And he would just look at it, and I guess probably just go, whoa! Like, every time he looked, whoa! There he is again! Danton, he likes the picture. The Frenchman, Charles de Perjoux, had never given an English language performance.

1:00:05Griffin Newman:So it's not even like, you're not even automatically assuming he'd work, you know, in a movie where he has to speak English. Here's how, here's the things that he was interested by. his masculinity, his vulnerability, his mysterious contradictory quality of child and man, beauty and beast. I mean, yeah, sure.

1:00:23David Sims:Here's the thing I'll throw out that I think's worth considering as well. He's just done Peter Weir, three big A-list Hollywood movie star movies in a row. Two Harrison Fords and then Robin Williams. Robin Williams. He gets along with these guys really well. Yep. But that's a level of stardom where the plus side is automatic green light, big budget given to you. Totally. confidence from studio. The downside is you're kind of, you've got some co-authoring with those guys. And you're on their rails.

1:00:52Griffin Newman:Yeah. And like, obviously, he, with Mosquito Coast, he went against type with Ford and Ford's there with him. Yeah. But then the reaction from everyone is like, this doesn't make sense for Harrison Ford. That's too much for Harrison Ford. At the time, everyone was just like, nah, he's trying to do something he can't do.

1:01:05David Sims:It does feel like he is strategically here trying to make a movie where he, it can be his movie and he is selecting actors and unlike those guys who are going to command a big salary, but also an automatic green light, the alternate way to go about this is to basically bet on movie star futures and get two people who are in a transitional state where you can point to, here's what's worked up until now. And if I can get them over this line, suddenly you have a movie star who's worth more than you paid for them. There's also, but that's such an interesting thing in the case of Depardieu, I think because I think usually when you're betting on movie star futures, it's that people haven't fully figured out their persona yet when you're betting on.

1:01:52And here the movie does have to be so catered to the Depardunas of it all because he's so like there's no way for him not to be that. So it's just an interesting thing because he's, yes, he's not Harrison Ford, but... Do you ever do like an action movie?

1:02:15David Sims:Harrison Ford? No, Sherard Defard you. Uh, yes, it was, uh, I don't know. I genuinely was wondering. Him buying a fucking piece of ham. I don't know. No, I don't know. I feel like he never was that. I guess what I'm saying is that like he has such a star persona, you know? Yes, he does. He does. And that's just an interesting sort of, you know. And his star persona is like. And obviously it's untested in the United States, but it's also just so like, the minute you see it, you're like, okay, I get it. You know? His star persona was inherently a little lascivious. And it starts with him making these like really edgy sex comedies where he's a young man.

1:02:55David Sims:And it's just sort of like, man, this like young, dumb, full of cum guy who's got this life to him. You know, and he's like built like a fucking rugby player. And then, yes, as it goes on, it's like he becomes this more legitimate, like versatile, heavyweight leading man. but there is always that like sexual charge to him, which is like some of the stuff where I struggle with this movie, where you're like, this character is not presented in a way that makes me uncomfortable, but the movie is pointing to a character and I can't stop thinking about how right past that line, real world Gerard Depardieu starts.

1:03:32Well, no, and obviously, again, it's, you know, trying to think of where we were then and where we are now. At the same time, I think one of the interesting things, and I agree with you, maybe, I wouldn't say troubling, but one of the hurdles you have to get past is people keep talking about how dangerous this man is. Yes, right. And how he's, you know...

1:04:00David Sims:It's baked into the text that this guy seems like he could be. Just something unpredictable about him. And obviously, we get to the point where it's like, oh, he just did, like, kid stuff, whatever. And yet, you're sort of like... I don't know, did he do something real bad? Because I feel like this guy could have done something real bad. That's the innate dangerous energy Debra Dew has. And I think Weir was really smart to make a movie that leads with that. Right. You're worried and then the chips start to, the layers fall away. I mean, there's that moment where he gets mad and he slams the thing and her picture falls down and breaks glass.

1:04:34And I don't know, there's a weird, it's an interesting thing. And it's obviously modern opinions versus now, but there's an interesting thing to reckon with, too, where, I don't know, if a man ever did that, like, that freaks me the fuck out, like, a little bit, you know? And I think it gives the movie, I think, this oddness that you have to reckon with now.

1:04:56David Sims:Which also, I like this movie a tremendous amount as well, but it is kind of predicated on Annie McDowell keeps not being satisfied by these kind of hyper woke liberal New York softball. I mean, yeah. Get him out of here. Oh, I know, but this movie sets up like a series of like. He's the big one. Indefensible Baxter. Yeah, right, right, right. And the way she talks about her past relationships. Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. And you're like, this guy doesn't even eat meat. all of this is not stuff I hold against the movie it's the no oil no salt is where Edelman loses me or no butter no salt whatever you know it does feel like in doing that the framework is anything you might find unsavory about Gerard Depardieu is just a byproduct of him being quote unquote a real man real men do get angry

1:05:45Griffin Newman:Edelman gets the fucking call for this it's like you're playing a chinless loser Depardieu's gonna throw you through the window

1:05:52David Sims:and also Depardieu like fucking clocks you for being too sexually pushy? That's the worst case scenario as an actor. Is Depardieu is like, you are not respecting women's boundaries!

1:06:06Griffin Newman:Throws them down a flight of stairs. Playing Georges Fahre. So Depardieu reads the script, finally. Loves it. Says, for me, this is a great situation. You can make a comedy with this, but you can also make the truth. He likes the, you know, the setup. He's committed to make two other movies, so he can't shoot green card for the year and a half. We're just like, ah, fuck. Like, I want to make this. Katzenberg's like... What year is this? We're talking probably like 88 or whatever because Katzenberg at Disney goes like, it's fine. We'll put the movie on hold. We can start in 18 months. Here's the script, by the way.

1:06:37Griffin Newman:In the meantime, Dead Poets Society. Goes off and makes Dead Poets Society. And so Katzenberg is... And then Katzenberg is like, you can have final cut on green card. I like this script. It's not going to be expensive. Like, go for it. You know, which... Cool. like God bless like they don't do that much anymore and Weir I think somewhat convinces Disney to basically just be a distributor gets a lot of like independent financing like makes like an Australian French co-production there was still that's like a big profit from the movie like Weir made like a ton of money off this movie because he had like a genuine cut yes

1:07:14David Sims:he got the Australian film board to partially finance this movie because he's making it

1:07:20Griffin Newman:essentially No Australians are in it.

1:07:22David Sims:Right. I guess at that point in time, there was still a lower tier kind of level of support you could get if it is a Australian filmmaker and some number of Australian crew people, even if you don't film in Australia or with any Australian cast. So he really built this movie in a way that is closer to modern film financing and kind of made out like a bandit.

1:07:42Griffin Newman:Yeah.

1:07:43David Sims:While having the full support of Disney in the United States.

1:07:46Griffin Newman:He, Debra G. barely spoke English. They would translate the screenplay into French for him and then translate it back in English so he understood what he was saying. De Vergees famously completely lost in 1492, which is the Ridley Scott movie in which he plays Christopher Columbus. It's the worst Ridley Scott movie ever made. It sucks so, so hard. And I think part of what happened there was he truly did not know the lines he was saying. And Ridley Scott was probably just eating cigars and just being like, just get on with it or whatever.

1:08:14David Sims:I mean, this movie benefits from leaning into his like rough franglais.

1:08:20Griffin Newman:Right, exactly. Yeah, it's sort of, it doesn't even, right, it doesn't even matter. No.

1:08:34David?

1:08:35David Sims:Yes? You look like a man who doesn't know that fast-growing trees is America's largest and most trusted online nursery with thousands of trees and plants and over two million happy customers. I had no idea. Yeah. Well, David, they have all the plants your yard or home needs, including fruit trees, privacy trees, flowering trees, shrubs and houseplants. My home is littered with all of these, and they're all grown with care and guaranteed to arrive healthy.

1:09:03Griffin Newman:It's like your local nursery, but anywhere you live with more plants than you'll find anywhere else. And whatever you're looking for, fast-growing trees helps you find options that actually work for your climate, space, and lifestyle. For me, all inclusive.

1:09:17David Sims:I'll take any kind of tree you got.

1:09:20Griffin Newman:Griffin, I know you're, you know, a green thumb. Yeah. And I think you're going to... I got 10 green fingers. Yeah, I think you're going to agree with me on this, that, you know, you go to a garden center

1:09:29David Sims:and you just find it so overwhelming and inconvenient. You took the personal statement out of my mouth, Ben. That is how I feel. And then here's the other thing. You try to hire some landscapers. It's too expensive. I'm so tired of spending every day of my life on the phone with landscapers. Listen, with fast-growing trees,

1:09:46Griffin Newman:it's just so reassuring that you know you're going to order plants and they're guaranteed to be healthy and to thrive.

1:09:55David Sims:But let me guess, when the trees arrive, it takes a really long time for them to grow. They have their alive and thrive guarantee.

1:10:00Griffin Newman:It promises your plants arrive happy and healthy. No green thumb required. Just quality plants you can count on. Plus, get ongoing support from trained plant experts who can help you plan your landscape, choose the right plants, learn how to care for them every step of the way.

1:10:15David Sims:Can you imagine if Wally had a promo code for Fast Growing Trees? That movie would have been solved. It never would have existed.

1:10:22Griffin Newman:Right now, they have great deals on spring planting essentials up to half off on select plants and listeners of our show get 20 % off their first purchase when using the code CHECK at checkout. That's an additional 20 % off better plants and better growing at fastgrowingtrees.com using code CHECK at checkout. Fastgrowingtrees.com, code CHECK. Now's the perfect time to plant. Let's grow together. Use check to save today. Offer is valid for a limited time. Terms and conditions may apply.

1:10:58David.

1:10:58David Sims:Yes. You look like a man who doesn't know that fast growing trees is America's largest and most trusted online nursery with thousands of trees and plants and over 2 million happy customers. I had no idea. Yeah. Well, David, they have all the plants your yard or home needs, including fruit trees, privacy trees, flowering trees, shrubs and houseplants. My home is littered with all of these, and they're all grown with care and guaranteed to arrive healthy.

1:11:27Griffin Newman:It's like your local nursery, but anywhere you live with more plants than you'll find anywhere else. And whatever you're looking for, fast growing trees helps you find options that actually work for your climate, space and lifestyle. For me, all inclusive.

1:11:41David Sims:I'll take any kind of tree you've got.

1:11:43Griffin Newman:Okay. Fast growing trees makes it so easy to get your dream yard. You just click order and grow and you get healthy, thriving plants delivered right to your door. I recently ordered a couple of different trees as well as some shrubs. Yes. From fastgrowingtrees.com. It was so easy. The stuff came five days later. I planted it. It was all at my dad's house. We planted it. It's already thriving.

1:12:12David Sims:It's already thriving.

1:12:13Griffin Newman:Okay, that's cool. They have their Alive and Thrive guarantee. It promises your plants are ripe, happy and healthy. No green thumb required. Just quality plants you can count on. Plus, get ongoing support from trained plant experts who can help you plan your landscape, choose the right plants, learn how to care for them every step of the way.

1:12:29David Sims:Can you imagine if Wally had a promo code for fast-growing trees? That movie would have been sold. It never would have existed.

1:12:36Griffin Newman:it right now they have great deals on spring planting essentials up to half off on select plants and listeners of our show get 20 off their first purchase when using the code check at checkout that's an additional 20 off better plants and better growing at fastgrowingtrees.com using code check at checkout fastgrowingtrees.com code check now's the perfect time to plant let's go together use check to save today offer is valid for a limited time terms and conditions may apply

1:13:10Griffin Newman:Defardieu didn't really have a desire to be a Hollywood actor. Didn't feel like he was ever going to become one based on how he speaks. Right. And like, I do feel like though he made a lot of Hollywood movies after this, he largely just sort of plays villains or comical oath.

1:13:25David Sims:My father, the hero is the year after this. That's certainly comical oath. Then what's the 1292 is the year after that. The Dalmatian. He's in 102 Dalmatian. Oh, he's in 102. Yeah, isn't he the villain in that? He's Cruella's right-hand man. Right. I saw that film in theaters. I'm sorry. The French My Father of the Hero is 91. The American remake, which he also starred in, was three years later. Right, right. And then I feel like there's one other big... Well, there's like Bogus, which is insane. Never even heard of that one. Bogus is Norman Jewison's last theatrical film, I believe. Oh, wow. Unless, no.

1:14:03David Sims:No, The Hurricane. The big three.

1:14:04Griffin Newman:Whoopi Koeberg, Gerard Depardieu, and Haley Joel Osmond. Exactly.

1:14:09David Sims:Haley Joel Osmond is an orphaned boy who's taken in by Whoopi as his godmother and Gerard Depardieu as his drunk French invisible friend named Bogus. So far, it sounds like a role he's suited for. But then, right, he's in Branagh Hamlet, he's in Man in the Iron Mask. Right.

1:14:25Griffin Newman:Well, he's obviously right. In Man in the Iron Mask, that's kind of where they found him. Correct. That kind of like, yeah, you can play a drunk French musketeer.

1:14:33David Sims:But then also, most importantly, in 1999. He does a film called Asterix and Obelix versus Caesar. And he's like, I don't need this American bullshit. I got an Asterix movie every three years no matter what.

1:14:43Griffin Newman:Yeah. And I mean, Griff, you and I have certainly both seen Le Placard, you know, like that gigantic hit. Like he made,

1:14:49David Sims:you know, he made giant French movies. A movie where you cannot believe Disney didn't remake that in 2005. Do you know this movie? I do not. It's Daniela Toy as a man who's going to be fired from his job as an exec at a condom, company. It is at a condom company. It's the most French-ass. And his next-door neighbor is like an old sad gay French man who was like, I could never come out, but I tried to march and this and that. But the times have changed. Now, if I were gay, they wouldn't have been able to fire me. And it inspires Daniel Autoy and he tells everyone that he's gay and he's fired by discrimination.

1:15:25David Sims:Well, and it's like because they're a condom company, they cannot fire a gay man. Right. Is the implication. But then they basically make him like the spokesperson for the company. They keep traveling, like pushing him around saying, like, look at our gay employee. And Gérard Depardieu plays the boss

1:15:40Griffin Newman:who has to do the Seinfeld-y, like, not that there's anything wrong with that, and then starts to be like, am I in love with... Yes. Depardieu is incredibly funny. He's very funny. It's like perfect... It's a really dumb movie. It made like one trillion francs.

1:15:54David Sims:It was like a giant smash hit. It won the Olympics that year. France submitted it in track and field. But yes, that's the kind of stuff he then gets into where it's like he's playing Obelix, he's playing funny supporting guy.

1:16:07Griffin Newman:He'll have two scenes behind a desk

1:16:11David Sims:and a cop drama or whatever it is. It does feel like he kind of never did a movie where he was running around holding a gun. But even him showing up in La Vie en Rose was just sort of like, if you're going to make a legitimate French movie, you need three minutes of Depardieu. He's like blessing your production. Maybe, but I do feel like he stopped

1:16:29Griffin Newman:the whole thing with him in the 70s and 80s. is he is a true collaborator with a lot of the giant French filmmakers. And that kind of goes away. He's still a mainstay in French cinema, but he is not being picked up by the newer names in French cinema at all.

1:16:45David Sims:I think he stops being collaborative, period. And I think he becomes a shut up and pay me guy. He's an evil asshole who's impossible to work with and is the sex offender. There's one I really like called When I Was the Singer. And it's him and Cecile de France. When I Was a Singer. it's called something like that.

1:17:04Griffin Newman:Conje de Té Chanteur by Xavier Giannoli. It's sort of an attempt to do a sort of fabulous Baker Boys thing. Like he's one of the few remaining dance band singers in France.

1:17:16David Sims:It's that plus Lost in Translation. Yeah, it's the sort of like weird is this guy sad, stuck in the middle in a loop kind of movie that I thought he was very good in. Yes. But it definitely feels like the 2000s are the last time where he even kind of gives a shit. I mean, true.

1:17:33Griffin Newman:Like, if you look at his... Yeah, it's like, I just have not heard of many of these movies and I've not heard of many of these filmmakers. Whereas in the 70s, you know, he worked with René. He worked with Bertolucci, obviously. He worked with Truffaut. Yes. I mean, that last match was incredible. Like, he worked with, you know, Bertrand Blier. You know, Under the Son of Satan is a big movie that is... Marcus Pliot. you know, a zillion things. And obviously, Jean de Fleuret is like kind of a big breakout. Oh, yeah. You know, all the way to America. It's another thing

1:18:07David Sims:that helps push him to America. Yeah. But like 2022, which is the last year before his legal troubles completely consume him, he has seven credits. And I think what you're talking about, Esther, of like the act of trying to introduce a star, right? Or like explode them in that way, getting someone who has the potential and the juice potentially. was so different at this point in time with international stars. Yeah. Because it's like, it is insane. I think it is one of the few things where I feel the need to constantly give Netflix credit. Netflix figured out how to get people over subtitles. Right, they did.

1:18:46David Sims:It is fascinating. Right, right, right. Right, that it was just always like, even people would struggle with British shows and you'd have to fucking remake them in English, you know, in American English. And Netflix has just made it like, Like, we are an international company. Everything goes on the same site. It catches on with this audience. And you watch it with subtitle. You watch everything with subtitle. Totally. And so if, like, someone pops in Squid Game, Hollywood isn't like, oh, I watched this weird thing. This guy is good. How do we find a new way to introduce him to a new audience from square one as if to them he hasn't done anything?

1:19:19David Sims:It's like, no, put the Squid Game guy in Star Wars. Like, there is a kind of open playing field in that way. Even I feel like Omar Sy, who was like one of the last guys where it's like, this dude's become the biggest star in France. Let's put him in Jurassic World. And you're like, he's in this. He hasn't really made an impact. He's in a couple other American action films. Then he does Lupin, a French series. And everyone's like, oh, cool. Yeah. Show us the real fucking thing. Yeah. I mean, I do feel, though, that there are still hurdles for a lot of these people in the sense that what, it was sort of what you were talking about earlier, so I don't want to repeat anything, but it's like, it's the Mads Mikkelsen thing of what they're getting in the United States is still like third lead in a Star Wars thing or, you know, sort of some villain role.

1:20:17You know, I think it was like, it was sort of what you were talking about with Lee Biong Hong on your No Other Choice episode, which is that, like, you know, the American roles have not been... And this is... I mean, I guess this is not really post... His is not really post-Squid Game, but, like, still. He's still getting better work in South Korea.

1:20:41David Sims:He's had, like, six franchise-y, big-budget movies in which he played a principal character, and all of them are basically exactly the same and did nothing for his career other than normalizing his name above a poster in America. And then you're like, yeah. And then in his fucking homeland, he gets to do whatever the hell he wants. He's got like infinite range of versatility. And like, I mean, I was just looking at it because I was like, what has Omar Saeed done like post? And it's like, he's doing a, you know, upcoming, he did the John Woo remake of The Killer and upcoming he has... Some people tell me that was kind of good.

1:21:15Yeah, I never watched it, but I heard it was directed. He directed it. Natalie Emanuel. Yeah. Yeah, but I mean,

1:21:21David Sims:John Woo doesn't have a perfect track record

1:21:23Griffin Newman:these days. No. What was that Christmas movie? That movie was Silent Night. Terrible. Worst shit I ever saw. But Omar Sy's next big thing is Shadow Force, a Joe Carnahan, like, I think, direct to something. Yeah, I think that's been in the can for a while. I think that came out.

1:21:41David Sims:Am I wrong? I don't know. No, I mean, it says it's in post. I'll say this. I don't know. Whatever. Maybe that did come out. It came out. I have no. It came out last year. I went to see Thunderbolts and they were holding us. We couldn't leave the theater because... Because you were so excited? Because the Thunder Force? Shadow Force. The Shadow Force. Shadow Force. The Shadow Force premiere was happening at the same time. Right. And they held us in the lobby of the AMC Lincoln Square so that Omar Sy could get to his. Right.

1:22:09Griffin Newman:Like, ah, the Shadow Force is here! Lupin! Lupin! I don't know. It still feels very hard for that true, like, crossover.

1:22:21David Sims:It does. In a leading role. I think the only thing that's changed is it used to be like Gerard Depardieu has been one of France's biggest stars since 1975. And now we are going to present them to you and explain to you how historic they are and ask you to just buy in here in his third decade. Right? And that's like what would sometimes feel like a psyop of like the way there was so much energy behind trying to get Robbie Williams to connect to America. Well, you make him a monkey. Yeah, it took him too long to figure that out. But everyone's response to that was just sort of like, why do you keep telling me how big this guy is?

1:23:04David Sims:Let me form my own opinion. I think that tends to fuck people a little bit. And when Gerard Perdu's whole thing is so strange to begin with, you're like, are you tricking me? The hair is just, I don't know.

1:23:17Griffin Newman:You don't like my hair? I don't like it. He's too mushroomy for you? He's too mushroomy. So, Annie McDowell, he took a year to find her. Not that she was nobody, but like, you know, like he auditioned people for a long time, but he liked her. I assume he saw Sex Lies

1:23:31David Sims:or was it? And Gerard loved Sex Lies and Videotape. Weird. Which parts of that title do you think he liked? He was like, he was like, I too film. I love to lie. He might have added like five more words

1:23:43Griffin Newman:to that title. So, Peter Weir, really enjoyed making the film. It had final cut. He had a great, you know, incredible amount of control. Katzenberg did, did want the ending to change and was basically like, if you reshoot it, if they don't separate, if they humiliate the wreckage immigration officer, I think you're going to make like double your money. And Weir was just like, I thought about it, but I was just like, no way. Like, the ending is the ending. Like, which, I also think Katzenberg's kind of wrong. I agree. I mean, maybe Kat, Jeffrey Katzenberg is wrong. Jeffrey Katzenberg make the sort of wrong decision.

1:24:20Has he? I mean, what about if he comes up with an idea for vertical short form?

1:24:29David Sims:It's crazy you say that, Esther. I'm reading on the dossier. He also pitched to Peter Weir, what if the ending is five minutes long, doesn't play at the end of the movie, it plays as the final installment of a Quibi original you can only watch after sundown.

1:24:44Griffin Newman:He was right about many things, obviously. He was once a very savvy executive. I mean, I guess he's just kind of going for the like, you need a happy ending for good word of mouth. But I think the green card ending leaves you feeling pretty satisfied. It's very satisfying. You're like, they're going to figure it out. For all my quibbles with Depardieu and how I couldn't... I was just like, oh, I love it. Like, I love the ending so much, you know? And it's perfect. I mean, I think that's another rom-com thing that we like talk about a lot. It's the perfect sort of like bittersweet ending that I think some of my favorite rom-coms do.

1:25:22That it's like, you know.

1:25:23Griffin Newman:And you're watching the whole movie thinking, all right, so what are they going to pick here for the ending? Like, you know, because like, you know, the sort of roads this movie can take. And they pick the right one. Like, that's how I feel watching them. Like, yes, good. Good job, guys. Because I think, and again, this is sort of the thing that I like about the movie. it's all of these beats that don't happen exactly the way you would expect them and don't feel perfectly tied up in a bow they don't have like some amazing sex and then are like oh i have to be with you and they aren't like and they don't get their happy their perfect happy ending but they do find that they're in love with each other and he does have to go back to frant like it's just like it's the it's sort of the big moment is he gets it wrong yes you know in the interview and that's when he realizes like, oh, but there are actually a million things I do love about her and who cares that I'm obsessing over this.

1:26:14Griffin Newman:I would love to call up Bob right now and ask him if he could name the face cream that I use though. Are you serious? I feel like, I don't know, it's like in a blue container. I don't know the fucking name of it. Yeah, I mean, it's funny that like that is the one it hinges on where like an obvious and then, I mean, his bigger fuck up is that he says that he, I memorized all of them. That's how he messes up. If he had just not remembered it, he would have been fine. But it is funny that it's like, I guarantee you, Bob, would not be able to name the face cream that I use. Hans Zimmer did the score.

1:26:44Griffin Newman:Young Hans Zimmer in his sort of more synthy days. Very good score, in my opinion. But the composer... Does have a little bit of that Hans Zimmer sort of exoticism that people sometimes get that. Well, his early scores were very world music. Yeah, totally. Do you revisit the score? Yeah, absolutely. Really? Those early Zimmer scores are really good. Rain Man, this, there's a third one. I'm a big fan of Lion King. It's just visualizing you. The Lion. Throwing this on. Remember when Jeffrey Katzenberg almost got bit by a lion? Yes. I mean, no, but yes. Do you know this? Do you know this video? I do.

1:27:23Griffin Newman:Yeah. I want Ben to finish his thought. Oh, I just find it very weird to be like, what did I do today? I listened to Green Card's soundtrack. That's why we love David, though. There is a video... I'm doing a thumbs up. a promotional event for the Lion King where they brought out a real lion or maybe it was like the illustrate. I can't remember exactly what it was. Somebody can correct me. But basically, the long story short of this is that it seems like Jeffrey Katzenberg might get eaten by a lion in this video. Right. The lion gets aggressive and the lion has to be... Like towards Jeffrey Katzenberg.

1:28:02Griffin Newman:So when this film, I want to say, begins with RIP to her we love her we miss her the 9 train little shot of a 9 train disappearing yeah you need to tell us about the 9 train you don't know about the 9 train I don't know you're kind of pre-9 train back in the day I was born in 1990 yeah well the 9 train was still existing then but it was on its way out so back in the day Ben you know on the 7th Avenue line the red lines of the subway right there's the 1, 2 and the 3 yeah right the 2 and the 3 are express in Manhattan the 1 is the local there used to be a 9 train on that line too And it was a local as well.

1:28:36Griffin Newman:It was the same as the one in every way, except there's no eight train. There used to be an eight train Ben long ago. Yes. There used to be an eight train as well in the Bronx. Let's not talk about that right now. But the nine was skip stop with the one north of 96th street. So like when the one is on its own. And the idea was just like, oh, a rush hour, like just to speed things along these trains kind of like hop. And it was too annoying. And I think people who lived in upper Manhattan in the Bronx didn't even like it that much. For me, who lived on that line, but not in the skip stop area, it did nothing different from a one train, but I was just still always, if we got a nine, I was like, look, a nine train.

1:29:15David Sims:It was so funny to get to the platform and be like, what's here? One, two, three. Okay, cool. I bet I can guess what the fourth train is.

1:29:22Griffin Newman:Nine!

1:29:23David Sims:Skipping all the way over.

1:29:25Griffin Newman:Yes. So, when Peter Weir, this movie has great New York, I would say, energy in general. I would agree. Is navigating a subway station, he hears a chorus of voices led by the unhoused singer Harry Stewart and the Erasmus group, sorry, the Emmis group singers named after Harlem's Emmis house for the unhoused. And he was like, I love this. I want this to be in the film. So that's why those guys are in the movie. For the opening.

1:29:49David Sims:I do want to call out because I know what happened while I was in the bathroom. Uh-oh. I do think Hans Zimmer's score in this is great. I agree. Oh, yeah. We already talked about that. I just wanted to second it. Did you hear us or did you just think I heard David saying this was an early Hans Zimmer score. It's a great score. I think a lot of the early Hans Zimmer comedy scores have aged to varying degrees. Yes. Some of them age better than others. I was just talking with Esther about his kind of early like world music vibe. But also the synth-heavy stuff. Dune. Right. I think this is like kind of one of the better comedy era Zimmer scores.

1:30:25Griffin Newman:I like that era of his career. It's interesting to hear it now, obviously, knowing what he like turned into. Correct. Which turned into something interesting as well.

1:30:33David Sims:It's just like completely different. But this is like, it's so much my problem of the modern rom-com, which barely exists, but what does exist feels like it is just trying to be one step elevated above the like Hallmark Christmas movie churn, which is this could have been shot anywhere and we're pretending it's anywhere else. And rom-coms benefit so much from like a place of specificity, from the feeling of like neighborhood haunts and like the rhythm of whatever the fucking city or the town is. And like just the fact that I put this movie on and immediately it's like subway drummer, people getting on and off the train.

1:31:13David Sims:No, I mean, I'm like, this is set in a place. And it speaks to very quickly what is kind of actually the biggest point this movie is making. We talk a lot about the cinema of men will literally blank to avoid going to therapy.

1:31:29Griffin Newman:One of your favorite, right, tropes.

1:31:30David Sims:Yeah. This is, and I think this movie's dead on the money. Can I say it? Yeah. Women will literally get married for, to get a great apartment. I think it's, women will literally do anything to get the right apartment.

1:31:43Griffin Newman:Amen.

1:31:43David Sims:Women in New York City. Yeah, I was gonna ask, would you get Green Card married to get that apartment? Oh, fucking, I thought you heard it. I would marry

1:31:53Griffin Newman:Departee now. Same. I wouldn't pay his legal fees. Same. but that's

1:31:57David Sims:that has to be specified that's the thing this movie gets so right that has only aged better with every successive year the opposite of Gerard Depardieu who ages worse every year is you're just like yeah yeah so now you could justify almost anything in the reality of the movie if there's an apartment this good on the market now I did look it up and it is it's not real it's a soundstage I'll tell you I'll tell you imagine if that happened imagine if there was is there a greenhouse in an apartment

1:32:26Griffin Newman:I mean, maybe somewhere. Yeah. So I'll tell you. The first garden that they used that's a community plot, that's a real place. There was another garden that's like a treed garden. The one in B.B. Neuer's parents. Correct. That, they basically moved a bunch of crabapple trees in Central Park Conservatory Garden, which is on 5th and 105th, over to a sort of terrace to create that kind of fakey... It's sort of like the Frick or whatever, like this weird kind of indoor. It looks so, yeah. The main apartment, obviously... It looks like the part of MoMA outside of the modern. Right. Yes. Yes. Like that too.

1:33:03Griffin Newman:Exactly. And the main apartment, yes, they built it on a soundstage because they were like, we are building paradise here. Like it's such a specific vibe. It's supposed to be basically out of her dreams with the arch and the wall fountain and the tiles and all this stuff. But very cool. I'm sure there are places in New York. Yes. Like weird. Don't you think so? I'm sure. Like weird pre-war buildings that are like, oh yeah, there's the weird conservatory apartment.

1:33:30David Sims:I love that it's also not just, man, there's a great apartment, she wants it really badly. No, it's really important to... That it's so specifically tied to her interests and her behaviors. Yeah, to her.

1:33:39Griffin Newman:And I love the fucking co-op board, by the way, being like, the one lady who's like, well, I like the couple from the bank. And the other guy's like, she's a horticulturalist. She'll probably be good for this place.

1:33:50David Sims:I mean, my best friends often mentioned on this podcast, Sophie Fader and Hawken Lennon, he is a ceramicist. Cool. And it's like... So he lives in a kiln? Living in New York City, he's constantly having to like calculate everything based on what kind of work he could legally do within a New York living space. Right.

1:34:14Griffin Newman:Am I allowed to have X in this house? Right. Right. Sorry. I literally just Googled Greenhouse, New York Greenhouse Apartments. And there was... There's a street easy thing. And honestly, this is like...

1:34:28David Sims:It looks like a dream apartment? Yeah. And like, I mean, it's very expensive, but it's not as expensive as I thought it was. Okay, can I ask a couple of questions? Because you're trying to figure out why it's so cheap. Upper West Side. Upper West Side. You're trying to figure out why it's so cheap. Washer, dryer included? Yeah. Walk-up? Yes. In-unit Depardieu? No. Because that would drive the price down.

1:34:50Griffin Newman:Yeah, I was going to say, that knocks about$200 ,000 off your list.

1:34:54David Sims:If there is a non-negotiable... Unfortunately, a French ogre lives here. In unit Depardieu, they might pay you to live there. Yes, he's just there being like, your coffee is bad and I like butter. I don't want to keep going back to the same joke, but it is crazy how much he looks like Shrek. He is Shrek. He is Shrek. And he only becomes more and more Shrek. Do you know who voiced Shrek in France? Was it Gerard Depardieu? No, Alain Chabat, because they were like, That's too fucking on the nose. It's too on the bulbous nose if we hire directors.

1:35:28Griffin Newman:Does the French guy voicing Shrek do a regional accent? You know, like I said. He says he does. He says he does a French version of Scottish. What's the French version of a Scottish accent? We're back to French stereotypes. We're back to this.

1:35:40David Sims:Yeah. I believe he does.

1:35:42Griffin Newman:You know Alain Shabba.

1:35:43David Sims:Sure, Alain Shabba.

1:35:45Griffin Newman:Yeah, I mean, sure. I mean, I know him personally. Really? You should meet Alain. It'd be funny if I did. Yeah.

1:35:51David Sims:Let me see if I can find what kind of accent. Keep going through the dossier.

1:35:54Griffin Newman:One of my favorite films that Alan Shabat made where he was, because he would direct and star, is just called this. Roar! Not kidding. That's what it's called. It's called Roar?

1:36:06David Sims:What's it about? I don't know. Sort of looks like holes. Okay. Roar! He also made a movie called DDA about a dog. Sounds great. It's a dog who turns into a person. He plays the dog. Sounds like good shit. Made one trillion dollars in France. DDA is on their money. Shrek 5 got moved Yes Right To summer of 27 I think they had to redo Some of the voices or something Or maybe redo like People thought they were redoing the animation Because people didn't like The new character designs Oh interesting I think it also might be script things They're taking some big swings on this one

1:36:38Griffin Newman:Was it that people like Figured out what Shrek 5 is about Didn't like it And so now they're scrambling

1:36:43David Sims:Maybe Interesting I don't know I heard What Shrek 5 was about A couple of years ago What you described to me didn't sound great. It was a big swing. It was wild. Well, off mic, you gotta tell me. I will. I could see them either panicking and going, do we have to rethink this? Or saying, if we're going to do this, we have to get it right. Yeah.

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1:37:47Griffin Newman:So the plot of Green Card, which is a tidy, you know, hour 45, this film. And it's a film with, you know, it's got a great cast, but pretty much all of the supporting players, it's like a couple scenes.

1:37:59David Sims:But Prosky comes in, just knocks it out of the fucking heart. One time. He must have had more. I'm doing Prosky right now. He must have had more scenes. I'm sorry. I can't believe you broke the law. His character's name is Bronte's lawyer. We should mention. Her name is Bronte Parrish. Because her dad named all of her siblings after authors. So it's Bronte, Austin. Austin, Elliot. Elliot, right. Collette. Collette.

1:38:27Griffin Newman:After a female author. Yeah. Yeah.

1:38:30David Sims:And then who's the fifth one? I don't fucking know. Oh, Koontz.

1:38:34Griffin Newman:King Koontz. Yeah, there you go. My name is Koontz. Koontz Parish.

1:38:40David Sims:I like to pick up a trashy airport paperback. Nothing wrong with it.

1:38:43Griffin Newman:Oh, fun read. Yeah, Robert Prosky crushes, I would say, in his one scene. you've got the great John Spencer as like a nice horticulturalist you've got Lois Smith as Bronte's mother like when she bad

1:38:57David Sims:as you mentioned before Neelix Dr. Neelix did you spot

1:39:01Griffin Newman:Ann Dowd Ann Dowd is Peggy a young Ann Dowd not a bald one nope quite a head of hair on this one what if and I'm sure that bald Ann Dowd who I know friend of the show yes has interacted with Ann Dowd in some way at some right at this point I'm not actually sure But like, what if one day Endow does take it all off for a role? Just to kind of complete the circle. You know, it shows that, like does a THX remake or something, like something where she's bald. I don't know.

1:39:33David Sims:I mean, my favorite performance in this movie. Yes. B.B. Neuwirth.

1:39:37Griffin Newman:B.B. amazing. Oh my God. Just, it's just like illegally hot.

1:39:42David Sims:Yeah, that's what I was going to say. Can we talk about how B.B. Neuwirth is the hottest person ever? I want to talk about B.B. And I just want her to throw me

1:39:49Griffin Newman:into like a sewer and just like spit on me. Also, she has these little like rat earrings. Did you clock her? I did clock her cool rat earrings.

1:39:58David Sims:I clocked everything that was going on here. What? So like what? Because she's,

1:40:01Griffin Newman:this is her second film role. Period? Period. Her first film role is Say Anything, which she has a small role in. Yes, very small. Obviously, she'd been on Cheers for years in that kind of like quasi-supporting role. You know, like sort of quasi-guess,

1:40:15David Sims:quasi-supporting, you know. She went from, she's got like two standalone guest appearances. Then they decide to bring her back. Then she becomes a recurring. Then she becomes a regular. And then she goes back down to recurring. Right. She got... She wins two Emmys? Two Emmys. Does she have both of them by the time she does this movie?

1:40:33Griffin Newman:She has one. And she's got another one to come. And she has one more the next year. That's what's crazy. But she had already won a Tony for Sweet Charity. I mean, she's a big theater actor.

1:40:42David Sims:But she won a second Emmy for the final season when she demoted herself to recurring. But she did enough episodes to count. Back then,

1:40:53Griffin Newman:they were very fungible about it, I think. She has two Tonys, of course. Can you tell me her second Tonys for? Chicago. Of course. Chicago. I recently saw a clip from the current production of Chicago. I don't know who's in it right now. It is the secret life of a Mormon wife. Oh, I see. Yeah. I was kind of getting the vibe where I was like, if I paid for this, I think I would call it the Better Business Bureau. No, I mean... It looked pretty shocking. Yeah. Because she's obviously doing nothing and the other ones are like, the other ones just sort of around and they're like flapping their arms around.

1:41:24Griffin Newman:They were on E-track or whatever.

1:41:26David Sims:Yeah. Yeah.

1:41:28Griffin Newman:What's going on over there? Is it time to wrap it up with St. John? I think it's time to wrap it up. But I think they keep making money by like... It's very cheap to make. ...by throwing all these like reality TV stars in there.

1:41:39David Sims:I also feel like all of their runs are pretty short where they're like, if one of them sucks, they're out in 10 days and maybe the next one's better. And then the other thing about Chicago is there are like standbys like who are, have done it for years. Like I believe like Charlotte Damboy does it, who's like a legendary dancer and like does it all the time. Like there are people that can always do it. And Bianca Maricott, like there are people that can always do it and they always just throw them back in. But also like do twice a year, do they pick up the red phone and go, Wayne Brady, we need you back?

1:42:09Yes, I believe so.

1:42:11David Sims:We should get Wayne Brady on this show.

1:42:13Griffin Newman:At the King of Podcasts. Remember when he crushed it on Comedy Bang Bang? Yeah. He was so good. Wayne Brady's awesome. Plugging that Headgum show that no one listened to.

1:42:21David Sims:But he was so good on Comedy Bang Bang. His WTF is amazing. Back to BB. Yeah, BB. It's not like this is her best work ever, but it is such a great time capsule of BB at kind of peak power. Also, when they go over to dinner at her parents' house and she shows up and she's just like, legs for days and it is so and you're just like well everyone should just like fuck BB because she's the hottest person that has ever lived. She's like two foot negative five.

1:42:52Griffin Newman:Yeah. Yeah.

1:42:53David Sims:She's a small woman. She's so cool. And yet she appears to anything and you're like this is the funniest, smartest, coolest, and hottest person who has ever lived.

1:43:02Griffin Newman:Very like debonair, very funny, very wry. She's very, very, she's very, very, very, very cool. Also you just want to hang out with her. She's so fun. like this character, you're sort of, you sort of expect like, oh, is she going to be sort of like a villain? And she's like, no, she's just like a fun hang. Esther, that's exactly what I like about it. Yeah, is she going to cause trouble? Right. You're like, is she going to make a pass to Depardieu and it's going to cause all kinds of problems? She's sort of just like, no, she just likes to party. She's got rich parents and she's an artist and she just likes to party.

1:43:29David Sims:I think there's a really, another real positive function of her character, which is you're set up to think, oh, she's going to stir some shit or she's going to try to steal Depardieu and she's going to make a bigger mess or any of this stuff. No, it's like you understand that this is Annie McDowell's closer friend, that this is someone who can call Annie McDowell out on her shit, knows her well, cares about her, and also is like, this guy's interesting. The co-sign of, I don't know, there's something kind of going on there. It's less about that she's going to make a move on Depardieu and more that it forces Annie McDowell to reconsider.

1:44:04David Sims:Wait, you're interested in him?

1:44:06Griffin Newman:Like maybe I should take a second look at this. Yeah. And I also feel like, I mean, it's another way in which the movie sort of subverts the tropes that you're expecting, which is, you know, hot, brassy lady comes along and steals the guy. And then he realizes that's not right for her, you know, like that's not right for him. And it's like, no, she's just, again, she's hot and fun and having a great time.

1:44:29David Sims:Do you know what this movie feels like to me? It's like eating a birthday cake and then being told after the fact, this cake is entirely vegan. There were no eggs. Right? Like it's soybean frosting. And you're just like, huh, it tasted good. I didn't question it at all. And the more I study how you were able to make this without doing the usual things, the more I have to like applaud you. Right. Without doing, as Esther said, like the tropey things.

1:44:58Griffin Newman:Right. You would imagine if I told you it's about a green card marriage and then they have to pretend to like each other and then they do like.

1:45:04David Sims:removes all the unhealthy ingredients in a way that is so unshowy that you're taking it for granted of like, yeah, it's like doing a rom-com thing. And you're like, no, it's actually like harder. I also think the other thing is when they're studying, you know, when they're doing sort of the part where they're studying each other and studying up on, there's something very earnest about it. Like, there's something very, you know, they do the montage of them taking photos, but there's something so, sort of like the genuine facts of like, how do you get to know a person? As opposed to the sort of Hollywoodized version of like, let's just blast through this and like make it all a joke.

1:45:45There's something very genuine about like the way, you know. Though I did, I don't know if that is Gerard Depardieu's actual handwriting, but it looks like a serial killer. Interesting. I can't think.

1:45:59Griffin Newman:His personality doesn't suggest anything like that and his sort of backstory way behaves.

1:46:04David Sims:I think you're right, though, Esther, that this movie deprives its characters of kind of snappy, small talk, get-to-know-you banter because of the language divide. So it's so often them communicating through actions or struggling to get the other one to understand their meaning, or then basically leapfrogging to deeper, more direct questions because the formality of needing to study for this test means that you're just like asking things you would never ask on a date. But I will say that's also the thing that unsettles me a little bit about it too, which is like there's something unnerving about it too.

1:46:43Griffin Newman:Like what's the deal with this guy? Yeah, like what's the deal with this guy? It's also just his presence. He's so, in addition to being like, you know, his face is sort of funny and his haircut is insane. Like he's so looming. He's so sort of terrifying and, you know. Seems kind of quick to anger,

1:46:58David Sims:even though he doesn't explode that many times. And he's got some level of criminal history that he explains as like boyish shenanigans. Yeah. But also this series of tattoos that are all these kind of like impactful moments of his life that he can't really unpack. There is this thing that like doesn't, never is resolved, which is, you know, which is sort of scary where he has the knife and it's like you draw the knife on one side if it's like the knife is drawn and then you put it back in its shaft once you've gotten your regent. Did I say that?

1:47:32Griffin Newman:You said shaft. Okay, I think, sorry. John Shaft, of course. Yeah, you put it back in its hilt, no? It's sheath, is that I would say. Once you've gotten the revenge and he hasn't gotten the revenge. He's kind of giving you a Sean Connery, Chicago Way monologue here. Think about it. It's just like there is a sense of danger to him. And I am not opposed to, like, rom-com leading men having that sense of danger. Yes. But maybe it's just the Depardieu of it all.

1:48:08David Sims:You guys are getting hung up on the real guy, which I understand. Yeah. But it's not just the real guy and his real actions. It is, like, what is his energy on screen? And I do think, Esther, there's something to perhaps. in this type of character, often you cast a charming person and have them as an actor work to affect a layer of edge on top of that that can then melt away. And Depardieu is the opposite side of the equation, which is here's a guy who feels a little dangerous and he's working to show you the charm inside of it. So the edge never melts away. But it's not really like,

1:48:47Griffin Newman:you know, it's not like a Heathcliff thing of like, this is a monster that she must tame. It doesn't hang out with the calico cats or anything. That's so true. Here's the thing about that joke, which every person I know has made or at least just three men that I know have made with the new Weathering Heights.

1:49:07David Sims:It's the joke of the season. It's the joke of the season. I think we maybe have to have a moratorium on that joke.

1:49:13Griffin Newman:Wow, you're calling for an end to Heathcliff joke. You're saying specifically Calico? No, I think you did a good job with it. I'm just saying that like... Okay, okay. All right, all right, all right. Because I'm saying the other men you're talking about,

1:49:25David Sims:were they just making jokes about Heathcliff the cat or did they go for a specific Calico?

1:49:29Griffin Newman:No, I have not heard the Calico angle yet. No, I haven't heard the cat. And so I'm fine with it. I just think everyone thinks they're so fucking clever making a joke about the fucking cat. But, you know. What if Emily Bronte was hearing about this? How do you think Emily Bronte would feel about Heathcliff's the cat. Oh, the cat, I think she would be bemused. I don't think she'd mind the cat. Guys, what's up? I'm sorry. What's going on? I need to... They're not called the Calico cats, are they?

1:49:58David Sims:Retire Bip myself. It's not Calico. Hoisted by your own...

1:50:02Griffin Newman:You're hoisting yourself to the ceiling? He's not Calico. He's orange.

1:50:04David Sims:No, no, no. But there's... The Calico critters, the line of toys, the little fuzzy animals. Yeah. I was confusing them with who Heathcliff hangs out with, who are the Cat-A-Lac cats. Cat-A-Lac cats. This is from the Heathcliff animated series. Yeah, the one that was recorded while Mel Blanc was dying. Right.

1:50:25Griffin Newman:They kind of like flew a drone into his hospital room. And we're like, I don't know, say some shit into the safe recorder. What's up, Doc? Wow, he really was on his way out. The Cat-A-Lac cats. Anyway, sorry to derail us.

1:50:41David Sims:Everyone is banned from making this joke now. You're right. You're right. I do think there is a thing where if I had seen this movie when I was younger prior to knowing the whole Depardieu of it all, I think I might have been more purely charmed and just been able to get over my shit with that, you know? and now and it's again like I think I'm pretty good as a you know watcher of things to be like to separate myself from to put myself in the time period in which it was made and to like I mean like it's something you have to do for your job and like all this stuff but obviously I do think if I had seen this when I was just before I knew all about maybe if I was just an American moviegoer in 1990 who is like, I want to see this in Cyrano and I'm just like charmed.

1:51:37I think it's like, he's just different.

1:51:39Griffin Newman:It's just like, there's nobody like him. There's nobody like him. And that's the whole appeal. And it is, I do think that is a thing to the movie's credit, which is like, you can't imagine, you can't like recast it with someone else. You can't. And like the movie, but also that the movie is not like, this is a stunning, like fucking babe. It's more like, this is, what is this? What is this guy? I got to look at this from 10 angles. Like, what's going on with this guy? Yeah. But it's just the whole thing is that like, but there is a whole thing where his energy is so off in a strange way, where like when he goes and plays, when he's asked to play the piano and he just like bangs on the keys and then plays like a lovely thing.

1:52:22Griffin Newman:That scene kind of rocks. It rocks, but it's so weird. Like the first scene where they go to the, was that a real restaurant? I meant to look that up. The All Nations restaurant. I couldn't, I didn't think so. I couldn't quite tell what the vibe was. Where it's like, you just are like, hey, we have the Swiss dish and we have the, you know.

1:52:39David Sims:But let's even zoom out here for a second, right? The piano scene. We can dig into the piano scene as kind of emblematic of the whole thing. This movie set up on the idea that he wants to become an American citizen because of the opportunities that could provide him in his career as a composer. And whenever she sort of asks him about it because his English is so broken, he responds strangely, And I watched the movie the first time and like, is the composer thing a lie? Right. Is he truly making this up? Right. Because we don't really have any sense of him. Is he making it up? Her, we know she wants to fucking have a husband

1:53:13Griffin Newman:so she can get this apartment. This board won't approve. A modern woman living single. Right, right. That doorman, what a... I don't go for this women's lib. I hate it. I hate the guy. Also, that is what's sort of so strange about it is that like, is he a composer? Is he not? Is he actually, you know, they talk about how he's, you know, he's got stuff in his past. Like, is he actually trying to be in America? Because he's on the run. Like, he is a composer, but there's no sort of, he gets fired from his restaurant job and he's like, well, that's fine. You know, he says I quit. Yeah. And he says I quit.

1:53:49Everything's a little. Everything feels a little like he's lying to you just in his persona. And then that never fully, he is a composer.

1:54:00David Sims:Right. of some impressionistic sort. Can we unpack this scene for a moment? So, like, B.B. Neuwirth takes a liking to him, brings him to the party, right? Yes. When you're meeting B.B. and she's so big, part of you is going like, is she doing this to make her friend jealous? Yeah. Or is she just sort of such a wild... She's just a fun girl. ...pre-rolling that she's like, I don't know, this guy's weird. Let me figure out what his fucking thing is. Everyone at the party is kind of a little confused, but like, oh, wow, a Frenchman. How interesting. Comes up that he's a composer. They ask him to sit at the piano.

1:54:29David Sims:no, he sits there very intensely and then just starts like mashing the keys with his fists. And the point that you're like, he's he's been rumbled like, you know, he's making something

1:54:38Griffin Newman:up because he doesn't know how to do this initially. That's what it feels like.

1:54:42David Sims:And then you're like, it's just like there are moments of tonality within it. I still don't know if that was supposed to be a real piece. I don't either. I think it is. But you don't totally know. Fuck you. Is it this is the kind of composing I do. you don't know and you wonder like is this him revealing that he's never touched a piano before in his fucking life and then he like comes around and like plays this beautiful piece and does this spoken word poetry over that is like translated in real time and it's Depardieu in close up while playing a piano basically looking down the barrel of the lens with tears in his eyes and I'm like this is undeniably effective right this is his power the whole movie is built around this which is you're just like why am I drawn into this?

1:55:29David Sims:Right? This guy has not made sense to me up until this moment and something is happening here that's emotionally affecting. And B.B. Neuwirth goes, I think you just got your flowers. And that's what happens. He fucking, she got the trees because whatever Gerard Depardieu just did charmed the shit out of everybody. Then like 30 minutes later when they're going through the studying for the test, he brings up or she repeats, they've filled in this information at some point, that he stopped playing music because he was in love with a woman. They got married. she died, and he couldn't hear the music anymore.

1:56:00David Sims:And he realizes the way to explain in this interview why they fell in love, to make the case in the most ecstatic way without overly explaining that their love is real, is to say, when I met her, I heard the music again. Which is so kind of beautiful and poetic that you see her get charmed by that, even if it's only a strategic lie. The notion that he could think that way starts to open... Yeah. Her up to him a little bit. It is the rom-com leap that I think you have to make with a lot of rom-coms, which is like, if this were real life, how would I react to this? And there's something for me that is still...

1:56:45I don't... And by the end, I get there. But for a lot of it, I don't know if I fully... There's something still that creeps me out about the mystery that is written into the character. And the fact that even at the end, it still feels like I don't fully know this guy. And she is willing... And she has fallen for him and he's written her this thing and she's willing to do it. But like... But we don't even know what she's totally willing to do. Yeah, I mean, yeah.

1:57:17Griffin Newman:They're just, they know... Well, and that's the thing. They know something's going on that they can't ignore anymore, like in the last scene.

1:57:23David Sims:To make a very dumb comparison point... Make sure this is very dumb, please. If you were to try to watch The Cosby Show and apply... Let me say this. Let me say this. Let me say this. Go ahead. And try to apply cognitive dissonance and go, look, it's just this show. History, nostalgia for me reminds me, right? You are in an episode of The Cosby Show pretty unlikely to butt up against something that directly reminds you of everything you now know about Bill Cosby. I'm not even at this point, I'm not even talking about the Depardieu of it all. Genuinely, I'm genuinely talking about the way this character is written.

1:58:01This is my problem. Is that there is still something that feels odd about him and off about him in a way that feels either potentially dangerous or potentially... David's shaking his head.

1:58:20David Sims:I'm not with you on this. Yeah, let me finish my bridge here because I think Esther and I are feeling the same thing, right? Which is like, if Cosby Show episodes... Oh my God, stop it. I don't want to talk about Bill Cosby. Honestly, I think you have to stop. You have to. I appreciate you defending me, but also I don't want to hear about the Cosby. Because this is not defending me or you. This is me just like how I think about it, right? Okay. If Cosby episodes had him regularly going like, I'm going on a date tonight, I'd be like, well, now I can't stop thinking about what would happen on that date, right?

1:58:50David Sims:And I think similarly - No, no, no. That's not what I'm doing. No, I just think the fact that there is mystery to this character and the mystery is coded as being a little bit dark, it's hard not to let your brain go to darker things because of the guy who's playing. I don't even think that's it. I just think there is...

1:59:09Griffin Newman:I understand what you're saying, Esther. Yeah, I don't think I have to say it again because I'm just like... Yeah, and we can just agree to disagree. I just... I think there is something in the writing of the character that leaves me at arm's length. Ben, you got to decide. You got to weigh in your take on Green Card, which we haven't heard yet. Anyway, it's still marry him for the apartment. Yeah. I mean... Did you like this movie? I mean, you haven't weighed in. It was okay. Fair enough. I'm not a huge rom-com guy. What's your favorite rom-com? I have no idea. I guess I never thought about this.

1:59:40Griffin Newman:Yeah. Yeah. You never really talk up a rom-com. No. Nothing comes to mind. Nothing comes to mind? Nothing. Not a single thing. No. Fair enough. I'll look. Maybe there's one. There's got to be one. But here, this is what I'll say. I watch Dave Perdue and I'm like there's definitely moments three is effective no question for sure yeah he's got a great face great nose big old nose I don't see the riz I just it's not popping for me this is the question of society really at the time and now it's the hair the hair is such a problem he looks like a old ass painting come to life what you just described is to me is the Riz.

2:00:27Griffin Newman:Really? Well, yeah, because how many people look like that? I know, but it's like, he should be wearing one of those, like, Shakespearean weird collars. Well, he did a lot of movie or two where he's done that. Right, right.

2:00:39David Sims:I mean, if you want to see him in period dress, certainly. Allow me to speed around a couple things. Yes, please. One, this is kind of... You're allowed. Thank you. I appreciate it. No Cosby. That's true. With one corollary. Okay, allow me to speed around one thing. Yes, go ahead. No, I'm joking. First of all, this is a really strong Invisible Craft movie where he has done so much at this point that he knows exactly how to service whatever type of film he's making that having been said, there are two camera moves in this movie that I thought were so fucking classy. Can I guess one? Yes. Is it the...

2:01:15What are those things called? In the door.

2:01:19David Sims:Oh, well, that's good. Yes. The kind of peephole in the door and the click. Yeah. That's a great shot. No, it's...

2:01:26Griffin Newman:Two moves. Classy camera moves.

2:01:28David Sims:Yeah, where I was like, this is using the movement of the camera for storytelling and for emotional connection in a way that is so unshowy. One of them is when he's talking to Annie McDowell's dad, her parents show up, unexpected, and he takes on the role of the handyman to justify why he's there. And her dad, you feel like, is sniffing him out as a fake. Annie McDowell's saying, go, you're done, and he wants to stay, because clearly he's interested in her enough that he's kind of curious to secure her parents to eavesdrop in on this. And the dad goes into the kitchen after him, and he's going in, you worry, motivated by suspicion of who is this fake?

2:02:08David Sims:When in fact, what's motivating him is I kind of sense the heart of an artist inside you. I sense an artistic spirit inside you. You know, I used to work jobs like this when I was writing poetry. What are you really? I'm a composer. They're having this whole talk. They're having this male bonding thing. He notices that her dad has his arm on a table atop a bunch of papers, including their marriage license. And Depardieu's like, I gotta get that fucking away from him so that he doesn't see and this whole thing doesn't explode. And he tries to grab it and it kind of is too aggressive. The dad freaks out a little bit or is a little shaken, falls to the ground.

2:02:49David Sims:They both go to pick it up and it's a Polaroid from their faked honeymoon. They stand on the roof of this apartment that is absolutely worth marrying Gerard Depardieu to get with skis and they fake like three different vacations they've taken together, put in a scrapbook. And the camera move is these two men are both holding the Polaroid on opposite sides and it's basically the POV of her dad and the camera just like dollies up with Depardieu of the two of them, the feeling of maintaining eye contact as they're holding this object that they know says a tremendous amount that now needs to be acknowledged in some way.

2:03:31David Sims:And Debra Dew holds that close-up really fucking well, and it's that feeling of you are stuck in a moment, as you two would say, that you can't get out of. Right. That's so true. And then there's another one, which is when... It's a beautiful day. He basically drops Annie McDowell off with a fuckhead boyfriend.

2:03:48Griffin Newman:Yeah. Greg what's his pants

2:03:50David Sims:and Debra Edelman Debra Dews like halfway down the block with envy realizing for the first time he's jealous he is and rather than walk the opposite way as he should he walks towards them to basically challenge her are you going to break reality on this or are you going to treat me like a stranger either way I get a closer view of whatever's going on with you and the camera tracking with him as he does that is like really really I think you're I think you're speaking

2:04:18Griffin Newman:to what weird brings to so many of the movies we've discussed so far and will continue to discuss, which is that kind of like quiet, classy, non-showy, but stylish visual storytelling.

2:04:31David Sims:It is like, what does this moment need to convey? And what is the best technique to get that feeling across in the story? And it's like not as slick

2:04:38Griffin Newman:and over the top or like whatever, you know, like it's not going to pop in the way that certain big stylish filmmakers do. Here's another thing I like about

2:04:47David Sims:this movie that I feel like doesn't happen often enough. It's like a rom-com that isn't very funny. No, it's a good point. It would be false to categorize it as a rom-drom. Right, but it's certainly not like a screwball movie with a bunch of lines. It is funny. It has jokes. More than anything, it has a sustained comedic wavelength to it. But I think it's very concerned. It's not over the top. It doesn't want to break its own reality. Well, and the reality of it is something interesting that I wanted to bring up, which is that it is very rooted in like 1990 and 1990 New York. And some of that, some of that feels a little creaky now.

2:05:26You know, the, I think the talk about, I mean, obviously some is just the time periods, but like the garden argument and like the under, oh, the underprivileged kids, we just bring such joy to their lives of chaos. I mean, it's also funny this Lower East Side and that's, you know.

2:05:45David Sims:Even just this energy of, you know, some people don't eat meat. Right. And also some, there's this moment.

2:05:51Griffin Newman:You will have fish, of course. No, I don't eat that either. There's also a moment where she tells him he's being very right wing right now. Because I am no wing. You are wing. Yeah. And I don't want to pay taxes, to be clear.

2:06:06David Sims:And I pee in the airplane I want and not in the bathroom. No, no. In fact, I avoid it.

2:06:12Griffin Newman:The cockpit!

2:06:14David Sims:Your cup of coffee. But it is, it does, it is a version of New York that is very rooted in the real world of the time. As opposed to even, you know... Pretty Woman or whatever. Well, Pretty Woman, of course, but like, you know, even the Nora New York, which is its own form of...

2:06:35Griffin Newman:But she's got this sort of snow globe. She's got a snow globe of New York.

2:06:38David Sims:It's a saturated bubble. I mean, even just down to like starting with like fucking subway musicians and shit. It's like, this is like real New York. We're not doing your kind of - And some of it feels a little clunky, I think. But I think it's interesting. I think the weird thing about rom-coms is there are a good number that have this feeling of, you know, you know, David put it, I believe his letterbox, which I saw, but like the gentleness. And like, I do think there are, there are a couple that, you know, get this, like, it's not really that funny, but they get the romantic-ness right. And they're really tied into the characters.

2:07:23David Sims:They are well observed. Yeah.

2:07:25Griffin Newman:My Letterboxd review refers to a list of gentle movies that I curated for my wife after our first child was born. Oh, interesting. Where she was basically like, I cannot watch any movies with a lot of peril or stress and certainly no danger to children. And so I was like, all right, let's really narrow the focus to movies where it's pretty low stakes. A lot of rom-coms, obviously. But some other stuff too. 27 Dresses. Uh-huh. Where you're just like, who gives a shit the whole time?

2:07:54David Sims:I'm a little worried if she's going to hit it at 28 or not. Morning Glory. At the best. Yeah. Serendipity. The paper. I hate serendipity. It sucks. You hate serendipity. I hate serendipity. The paper I do think kind of fucking rules.

2:08:06Griffin Newman:The paper is so good. The only issue with the paper is that you're like, why isn't this a masterpiece? Agrees. Yeah. Because it's totally good. Everyone in it's having fun. You have fun. But you're like, the ingredients are incredible.

2:08:19David Sims:It's a three-star general. The whole time you're watching it, you're like, shouldn't this just be perfect? What is it not pulling together? David, did you only rate Working Girl three and a half stars? I don't like that movie that much. That's silly. You are fucked up. I think that movie has huge flaws.

2:08:32Griffin Newman:There are things about it I love.

2:08:34David Sims:I would say Working Girl is kind of the patron saint of the thing we're talking about. Where it's like a rom-com mostly with dramatic actors who have comedic chops. But it's not that funny.

2:08:45Griffin Newman:The comedy is more tonally. I mean, the funny stuff is like Joan Cusack going, wah! Right. And it is kind of doing character stuff. What? No bows? Cate and Leopold, one of my favorites. Someone Like You, a movie for nobody that I have seen like five times. Made in Manhattan, terrible. Forces of Nature, hugely underrated. Leap Year, two weeks notice. Fever Pitch, the British.

2:09:07David Sims:Leap Year definitely was a modern, semi-modern attempt to do the same kind of thing. And it's not that good. Yeah, it's not that good. It does have There's No Room at the Inn,

2:09:14Griffin Newman:which we always love.

2:09:15David Sims:You know what's another one? You have to sleep in this little bed. You know what's another one that I was thinking Only You is another one that sort of does this. Which one is that? That's the Norman Jewison, Marissa Tume, Robert Downey. Oh, yeah. Is that good? Of course not to wash that. It is one of those you have to like get over the hurdle that she seems fucking insane.

2:09:36Griffin Newman:Because it's like she's gonna get married. Even though her destiny is to marry Robert Downey Jr. It's like, I'm trying to remember the exact thing, but it's like the night before her wedding. There's like a fortune teller who's like, you're... You're definitely gonna marry Robert Downey Jr. No, you're gonna marry somebody with this name. Oh yeah, that's right. And so then she goes to like... Robert Downey Jr. So she goes to Italy and he thinks trying to find this guy. And then Robert Downey Jr. lies to her that that's his name. And then it's like, you know. Right. It sounds pretty good. It's like, it's pretty good.

2:10:08Griffin Newman:And by good, I mean, it sounds kind of insane. Yeah. It's very insane. And you have to get over the fact that it's like insane and they lie to each other. You know, all that. No, no, no. You finish your thought because I'm pivoting. My thing is a little bit of a pivot as well. It's a mini pivot. I want to shout out Mary Louise Colson. The only actor in this week having cast a true legend. like a face you guys all know, has a Tony, great theater actor. She's so good. Lois Smith as Annie McDowell's mom. Yeah, we said that. We shouted everyone else out, I think. Prosky, of course. We've always, but we must give him many flowers.

2:10:41Griffin Newman:It is crazy that he doesn't have one more scene, but whatever. It is. Yeah. They're probably, I don't know.

2:10:47David Sims:It's a pretty economical movie. It is. But the billing on it is also weird. Like, Prosky's, like, high billing. John Spencer's, like, single card.

2:10:56Griffin Newman:And he's in like one scene, but he was sort of a name, I guess. He's a great actor. I have great John Spencer story. I'm going to tell you guys off mic. Is there anything else we want to talk about?

2:11:07David Sims:I just want to do this soft pivot. Yes, yes, what's your soft pivot? Off of what we were talking about of this kind of modality of rom-com. That is one that's really hard to execute. And especially now we live in a fucking desert where we're only getting like the dumbest, most synthetic rom-coms or they have to also be gun movies, right? Like either they're like$2 movies. Our buddy Amanda Dobbins on Big Picture was making this case recently where I think they were talking about the people we meet on vacation. That movie. And was saying how like Hallmark and Netflix have made people think that rom-coms are designed to be really cheap programmers.

2:11:44David Sims:Right. And she was like, you know, there are entire Instagram accounts now with millions and millions of followers based off of travel and based off of look at how nice the sweater I bought was and this face cream I'm using was right. if it's just about the access to the luxury events, locations, items, like people can get that. They don't need it delivered to them in a movie. And yet, if you're not actually putting that level of like production value on screen, and those things are production value tantamount to like a Marvel movie not investing enough in CGI, then you're like, then what the fuck am I doing here?

2:12:26I mean, I think the other issue though is that For me, the appeal of the rom-com location is not the same as the appeal of someone's Instagram or TikTok. You just want a rom-com to feel like it exists in the real world.

2:12:43David Sims:I think it needs to exist in a specific place. Yeah. For the fantasy to work, at least for me, the fantasy has to be rooted in the reality of a place and has to be rooted in the tangibility of that place. And then I can forgive some of the rom-com tropes, some of the rom-com ridiculousness that you have to get over because I feel like it's in the real world. I was talking about this with somebody another day where it's like, I always have trouble. Like, I love rom-coms and I have trouble reading romance. I've tried rom-com novels and I have trouble with them.

2:13:19Griffin Newman:They tend to be very tropey. Because they're so tropey and also because the writing's just not good enough for me to, like, glom onto. But also not to dismiss a genre that I know people enjoy. Yeah, again, not to dismiss a genre that I know people enjoy. I just don't feel like I can latch on in the way. And I feel like when I latch on to a rom-com, it's because the fizziness is in the dialogue, is in the writing, and the reality is in the world.

2:13:50David Sims:I think it even goes beyond that, which is just like, for me, it's the magic act of the chemistry that two people are creating. And then when that's working in tandem with the writing, with the location, with the supporting cast, all that stuff, when it feels like you've created an ecosystem. But I do agree with you. It needs to feel like it is grounded in the specific. And the specific can't just be the tropes of the characters or the plot beats. It also needs to be like a sense of place, even if that place is made up or heightened. and I feel like we're stuck in a lot of like streaming movies that are based around vacations where the characters have no relationship to the place they're in and the place is being rendered very artificially, which is like the worst of all worlds.

2:14:33David Sims:We're in a fake Maui and they just happen to meet here, you know? And it's like, great, so now you get a fucking surfing sequence? The fuck is this? It doesn't mean anything. And I think like, you know, it's, you want some level of like tactility you want a level of like time and place in that specificity. A movie I love, which I will continue defending for the rest of my fucking life, is Materialist, which I think has been so wildly misunderstood. David is making the rudest face a person could possibly make. I don't like that movie. I know you don't. You've made that very, very clear to me. But I think Materialist is...

2:15:11I like Materialist. I don't love it, but I don't.

2:15:14David Sims:David is now making the rudest face We sat next to each other. Yeah, we did. We sure did. And David is making a face that says, don't talk to me ever again. But I feel Materialist is, with like a pitch black heart and a real cynicism, more attempting a movie on this kind of wavelength than a proper rom-com. It is. I think so much of the hyper negative response to Materialist, which I fully understand is a very acquired taste movie that's not going to work for most people, is that it felt like 824 were successfully marketed to people were bringing the rom-com back and people were so ready to just see a fun love triangle movie and then it was this kind of movie digging into is all of dating bullshit which then made people feel like you offered me a cookie and then like threw acid in my face they made the money

2:16:04Griffin Newman:I was proud of them making their money I was happy I made money I want to hear Ben's rom-com I look up this list I don't know. There's a bunch. I just went to IndieWire, like 100 top rom-coms. And it's a reminder that this subgenre, what comes to mind is the stuff I remember as a kid that were very much leaning into the tropes. Okay. And that's like all of the McConaughey movies. So I forget when I look and I'm like seeing stuff like Breakfast at Tiffany's, I'm like, yeah.

2:16:42David Sims:Sure. Yes. McConaughey did a lot of damage. The McConaughey run was quite bad and kept getting worse. And he knows it. No, and that era was the death of it. It was. And it felt very cynical. And the McConaissance was all about him being like, yeah, I agree, those movies sucked, which kind of left those movies even further in the dirt without anyone stepping up to try to reclaim or recontextualize. There's also just the big thing, which is basically like Knocked Up skewed everything. When Knocked Up hit, people went, oh, can you make a rom-com that's dude perspective first and has this kind of like harder comedy edge in it and women will be more willing to see a dude rom-com than dudes are to see like a more female perspective driven rom-com, which I think had always been seen as a bit of a hurdle.

2:17:35David Sims:And then that leaves you with like nothing. When that goes down. They started to lose respect for their audience. They did. Yeah, and they felt like they had contempt for themselves, were like embarrassed to be rom-coms and had to be like, but it's not really a rom-com. Okay, but I'll say 500 Days of Summer,

2:17:53Griffin Newman:Moonstruck, Well, yes. Harold and Maude. Yeah. And then Roman Holiday, which I just saw recently. I watched with my wife because we were going to Italy and it was great.

2:18:05David Sims:You had a bit of a Roman holiday.

2:18:07Griffin Newman:We did. That's true.

2:18:09David Sims:I mean, for the first 60, 70 years of cinema, a wild percentage of the greatest movies ever made could be classified as rom-coms. And it's really when they start to nail the formula down to the wall in the 80s. And then kind of 90s, Touchstone just fucking goes like, here it is. It's math.

2:18:28Griffin Newman:Yeah, it's a little bit of a like, take actor A, actor B, add situation C.

2:18:33David Sims:There are wildly successful movies that come out of that era and ones that have stood the test of time. and even the middling ones are fun to watch now. But it does feel like, you know, it's like what fucking happens to Marvel where people go like, oh my God, I get it. I know what's going to happen. I've seen 20 of these. They never change. I get frustrated like when I was in the process of writing this that like rom-com fans have this idea of the rom-com sometimes as being only this like 2000s sort of, you know. There's a lack of history.

2:19:04Griffin Newman:Oh, shit. Like they think 27 dresses is the apex. Right. She did have 27 dresses. She did have 27 dresses. And that I find very frustrating. And I think the problem with reviving the rom-com a little bit is that that stuff still maybe looms a little too large. Did you see Your Christmas or Mine? What was that? No one's seen it. Your Christmas or Mine? They made a sequel as well. You know, even thinking about movies that we've covered on the show that came up, Broadcast News, all of the Nora movies. Nancy. Nancy. Nancy, totally. Did we like classify them as rom-coms during those series? Were we like hammering?

2:19:45Griffin Newman:I think you did. Yeah. Because I don't, I don't know. I don't even think of them as really that. Maybe the Nancys.

2:19:51David Sims:Well, and look.

2:19:52Griffin Newman:No, I mean, Nora is the queen of it. Like Nora is the like. And she's always at the top of the list. Yeah. Yeah. But I don't know why. I just, I'm like, those are funny movies whereas rom-coms, I also equate kind of in my head as being like a little bit schlockier. But I think that's the problem. I think the problem. That's like the inherent like...

2:20:10David Sims:That's what I'm talking about. Is that it used to be like these have to be high thread count movies. Like people want to see movie stars looking incredible. Yeah. You know, they want to see... And I think this is how the... This is a huge problem with materialists. Nice homes and outfits. You think that's a huge problem with materialists?

2:20:25Griffin Newman:I think every actor is so wrong for it. And then is styled wrong, is like just like not locked into whatever character she wants. Like that's the biggest thing with that movie. Yeah, see, I disagree on that. Yeah, I have some issues with the casting in that movie, but I will say it, but I think that's the thing that like bothers me, which is that rom-com got... No, wait, let me...

2:20:46David Sims:That Pedro Pascal and Dakota Johnson have no chemistry? That is the point. Stop it. I have a point to make. Go ahead, Esther. Rom-coms got equated with chick flicks. Yes. And that is the big... And honestly, I don't think... That's sort of a 90s thing. It's a 90s thing and into the 2000s thing. And I think it's a problem on multiple levels because I also don't think like the term chick flick should not exist because it's in and of itself productive. And then you factor into now that rom-com has been like so inundated with the Netflix shock and the Netflix, you know, and then on a side of that, like the Hallmark, the Hallmark schlock.

2:21:24And that is the problem. And it's all been denigrated. And I mean, I think it all comes from like a sexist place, which is that like at a certain point, they stopped realizing that everyone likes these movies and they thought that only women like these movies. But it's like a very frustrating thing.

2:21:38Griffin Newman:Well, it's also just right. We don't have to make an effort. As long as it's your Christmas or mine and then their Christmases get swamped.

2:21:44David Sims:That's the problem with the Hallmark and the Netflix stuff is people go, oh, if they'll watch it and we put$2 into the budget and it stars Joe Falk and Alice who gives a shit. Yeah, right. then no one fucking matters. I also think you're right that it's one of those genres that in the 90s and the 2000s where it was financially very, very lucrative, it was never treated with a lot of respect by the industry itself. It was like, this is one of those things we have to fucking make. We thank Julia for keeping our industry afloat, but we're not going to take her seriously until she does Erin Brockovich, right?

2:22:16David Sims:Right. Whatever it is. Even that arc between, like, 90 and 2000, where it's like, they cannot ignore her in Pretty Woman. They have to give her a Best Actress nomination. They do, because it's such a phenomenon. It's seismic. But by 10 years later, they're like, you're not getting one again until you actually break the genre. And it was always just, well, if they keep making money, we'll keep making them, even if we don't really respect them. The second the fucking obsession with overseas grosses blew up, it fucked everything up. Because these movies are super culturally specific. And it's like in the same way that we don't fucking want to watch the French movie called Calquechance about like four people drinking wine and finger banging each other.

2:22:59David Sims:They don't want to see our movies, even if they are our stars. But they don't want to see our movies? It's rare. Those aren't the movies they want us to export as much, right? And they rarely would connect. Griffin really brought it around to Calquechance. Unless the premise is like so gold. But even then, you look at the best rom-coms and they tend to be remade in every country where they're like, we'll do our version of that premise. like what well there's so many French comedies that were remade as American comedies like three men and a baby and stuff like that but even like what was the Olivia Wilde's new movie The Invite yeah it's a remake at Sundance is like it was a Spanish film originally Coda Coda sure but that movie is a Spanish film and I believe it's the fourth remake like three other countries remade it before we did it's called

2:23:48Griffin Newman:The People Upstairs I haven't I'm excited Olivia Wilde though she's made a film directed it no no she's an actor oh okay right that makes more sense

2:23:57David Sims:yeah

2:23:57Griffin Newman:then she's in the film

2:23:58David Sims:yeah of course if she was directing a movie

2:24:00Griffin Newman:I would have heard about it

2:24:00David Sims:the story ends there I would have heard about it I pay attention to such things

2:24:03Griffin Newman:Green Card was released limited Christmas we're done we're wrapping up I'm wrapping us up guys do you have something you want to say this has been a spirited conversation oh sure it's a good reminder though I need to revisit how I think about the rom-com and you know what I'm gonna do what are you gonna do I'm gonna pick up Esther's book oh my god she's got some she's got some great great recs in that book seriously if you just like watch along with her like I highly recommend thank you her other books are trash though not true garbage but falling in love with the movies yes well yes but but but we're not I mean you know we're not at the plugs I mean we should plug Esther's book plug away but I mean also we kept talking about it

2:24:45David Sims:and not naming it I thought it was good oh that's a good point

2:24:47Griffin Newman:yeah

2:24:48David Sims:David box office

2:24:49Griffin Newman:Yeah, it comes out Christmas Expands wide-ish February 1st Okay Made$30 million domestic I think more worldwide So like we made some good movies It gets a best screenplay nomination So that I wanted to point out Golden Globe, it wins best musical or comedy I have all this queued up Do you want to say it? Yeah, so it wins best musical or comedy At the Golden Globes Which is shocking because the other nominees were, this is crazy that it won. I don't know. They must have paid someone off. Or maybe it was the classier movie. I'm going to give you the nominees for Best Comedy Musical. You've got to remember Euro voting base.

2:25:28Griffin Newman:You're right. But listen. Because Gerard also wins Best Actor. He does. He does. But at least he's sort of, you know, listen to this. Yeah. Dick Tracy. Okay, fine. That wasn't going to win. Pretty funny though. Pretty fun.

2:25:40David Sims:Yeah.

2:25:40Griffin Newman:Ghost.

2:25:41David Sims:Yeah. I mean, Ghost feels like it's slam dunk.

2:25:44Griffin Newman:Home Alone. Yeah. Yeah, but they... They may be snobby about it, but it had made a billion dollars. I know. And Pretty Woman. Yeah. It beat all of those out. Like, was there almost like a weird, like the bigger movies were sort of splitting votes or something? It's crazy.

2:25:59David Sims:I think it's a Euro thing. And I think Pretty Woman being released at the beginning of the year and green card at the end of the year, I think it was probably positioned as that this is the headier Pretty Woman. This is the rarefied, the upper class. And I think it's the Euro thing. Jeff R.G. beats out

2:26:16Griffin Newman:Macaulay Culkin Richard Gere Patrick Swayze again you'd think the Globes it might be going for these guys yeah and Johnny Depp and Edward Scissorhands it was the Hollywood Foreign Press so they were like I guess so but like you know Andy I think was nominated but she she lost to Julia Roberts they at least for that one were like I think Julia Roberts maybe should win the Golden Globe and what were the other screenplay nominees I'm gonna tell you because it is it's quite a bunch now the winner is Bruce Stroll Rubin's screenplay for Ghost, which is a stupid winner, but obviously that movie was such a phenomenon.

2:26:50Griffin Newman:And I think there was that Hollywood of like, you know, you wrote the movie that was sort of out of fashion. Yeah. And it worked.

2:26:57David Sims:It's also like he invented silly putty where you're like, I don't know if we needed this, but certainly it caused a sensation and no one else was going to think to write this.

2:27:05Griffin Newman:The other reason he won is you look at the other nominees and none of them really feel like winners. It's Woody Allen for Alice, which is like a weird fucking movie. It kind of doesn't exist. It's a really interesting movie, but certainly not going to win an Oscar. Barry Levinson's Avalon, which is, I feel like, a movie that everyone thought was going to be like his big next Oscar-y epic and everyone was a little tepid on it. It's a pretty good movie. Favorite of my father's. It's a pretty good movie. It's made, though, with this kind of lushness. It's very historically. It's like his Fablemans or whatever.

2:27:36Griffin Newman:Exactly. Yeah, it is. And then Whit Stillman for Metropolitan, which is a feat of writing. Yeah, it should win. Thank God he got in there, but like, but that feels like you're lucky to be nominated.

2:27:46David Sims:We're giving you that level of respect. Yeah.

2:27:48Griffin Newman:It's a weird one because it's the 90 Oscars. So it's dances with wolves and good fellas are like the big, you know, sort of awards contenders and then shit like, you know, fucking Bugsy. Shit like fucking Bugsy. Is it Bugsy? No, it's not the Bugsy year. It's no, Dick Tracy is the big movie. Yeah. Yeah.

2:28:04David Sims:So it's the following year of shit like fucking Bugsy.

2:28:06Griffin Newman:I guess, I mean, misery wins best actress, best actor, Jeremy Irons for reversal of fortune. You know, all the comedies we just noted, which are like memorable smashes, Ghost, Home Alone, Pretty Woman, it's like, yeah, take your noms. I mean, Ghost got some wins, right? But like, at the end of the day, this was an Oscars that, right, that tended to ignore that stuff.

2:28:28David Sims:I don't know how much of it's the 10, but I've just been thinking a lot about are we a little past the era of, like, the Oscar-winning performances are the only nomination for the movie.

2:28:40Griffin Newman:Yeah, it doesn't happen much anymore. partly because, right, 10 Best Picture nominees. I mean, were there any this year? I mean, weapons? Weapons, yes.

2:28:49David Sims:Could quite possibly, yeah, pull off that exact trick. But like, you know, I feel like a historic one is that Michael Douglas was the only nomination that Wall Street got.

2:28:59Griffin Newman:Yeah, it's a weird...

2:29:00David Sims:Reversal of Fortune didn't get a ton of nominations, did it? Or am I wrong?

2:29:03Griffin Newman:I might have gotten a few, though. Let's see. Great movie. Because Misery, I think, similarly was just the one. Reversal of Fortune weirdly got three noms. Director, actor, screenplay. Didn't nominate Glenn. Well, Glenn is truly in a coma for most of it. I mean, she is. I mean, he fucking put her there.

2:29:20David Sims:Let me ask you, though. Or did he? Did you see her blink once? It's a pretty good performance. Made a choice and stuck to it.

2:29:30Griffin Newman:Misery, I think, just got the one nomb. Misery is the rare, truly. Which is a little rude because it's actually a really good adaptation. Exactly. But I think it's a very crowded field that year. Yeah. Khan is great. Yeah. Khan is great. Khan is great. I sound insane right now, but he is. He's great. Khan is great. Yeah. Box office. So I'm giving you the February 1st expansion. It's still only number six. It was a slow grower, this one. Number one at the box office. We've mentioned it a few times already. It's a phenomenon. A Christmas phenomenon. It's been number one for three months.

2:30:04David Sims:Home Alone. It's called Home Alone. R.I.P. Catherine O 'Hara. That's absolutely right. Yeah. but it was one of the 10 highest grossing films

2:30:10Griffin Newman:and yet the Wet Bandits are still at large

2:30:11David Sims:they're still at large unfortunately one of the 10 highest grossing films of all time upon release it made 285 million dollars domestic insane

2:30:21Griffin Newman:when did they remake it I mean they've tried so many shitty versions of sequels and remakes and reboots and like it never it's nobody cares I think also isn't there like a John Hughes thing like he is very specific like the no because they've done

2:30:35David Sims:other ones I mean I think No, sorry, Esther. I was not saying that in a dismissive way. Just that they've done shitty runoff Home Alone stuff in a way that I think maybe because he didn't direct it, the contracts weren't as tight. Maybe, yeah. Because I know he wouldn't let something like Ferris or... Right. Although they were about to make a fucking Ferris Bueller spinoff at Paramount Plus, and it got shut down at the last second. Dude, thank God. Thank God. The fucking Super Bowl ads obviously are horrendous now.

2:31:05Griffin Newman:Yeah, I hate all this shit. Yeah, they're so bad. Broderick where he's like, I love AI because it helps me like do spreadsheets and shit. I'm just watching. I'm like, Broderick, you've never done a spreadsheet. What is this? You don't work in an office. The only good Super Bowl ad was the one with the toilets. I didn't see that, but it sounds like my kind of thing. I saw that one and I mean, it was okay. I laughed. But there wasn't like a, you know. No, it was bad. A single tier, like, you know, kind of Super Bowl ad that you were looking for.

2:31:32David Sims:There's like the two to three shitty post Macaulay, Home Alone, the sequels. and then the reboot attempt. And I feel like Macaulay more recently started being like, what if we did like a legitimate one and it was me as the dad? I think Catherine O 'Hara dying kills that. It kills it even harder. I think it kills it really fucking hard.

2:31:50Griffin Newman:In the weird way, of course, like her like later in life, like fifth wave of success probably would have made it easier. Totally. Like and now it's sort of like, oh, forget it.

2:31:59David Sims:Right. People wanting to see the two of them together if it's just him.

2:32:02Griffin Newman:Griff, you just know if they do a Home Alone now, it's like he'll have an app. He'll like, you know, swing the cans with like an app. Yeah. He'll do, he'll like put a TikTok filter on his face to order the pizza.

2:32:16David Sims:And he's not even swinging cans. He's taping older iPhone models to frames. And then he's using an app to, it's all be apps. Number two at the box office is the best picture winner. Dances with Wolves. That's right. So these are just like fucking juggernauts running the box office. I mean, just three months. Month long campaigns.

2:32:37Griffin Newman:Yeah. Number three is a film I didn't see in theaters, but definitely saw as a boy. It's an adventure film for young people. It's an adventure film for young people. It's not Homer Bound. No, it's more like grown up and dramatic than that. But it's definitely still like for, you know, kids and teenagers. It's a Disney film. It's a major great actor as a young man. Newsies? No. I don't know. But kind of, you know, that level of prestige. I don't know.

2:33:07David Sims:It's not the Cusack one. It's not the Ethan Hawke one. It sure is an Ethan Hawke one. It's the Ethan Hawke one. Oh, what's the name of this movie? I get all these titles confused. It's not... Is it something with a G? Never Cry Wolf? No, but it doesn't involve a wolf. It doesn't involve a wolf. White Fang. White Fang. There we go. I thought that before him. Yeah, you nailed it, Esther.

2:33:28Griffin Newman:White Fang, Esther Zuckerman!

2:33:29David Sims:Esther, and I say this, look at me. I say this from the bottom of my heart. Points. Thank you.

2:33:35Griffin Newman:based on Jacqueline's novel you know he's in Alaska or wherever the fuck he is there's a wolf dog they go on an adventure I saw it as a kid I can't say I remember it very well Ethan Hawke yeah Randall Kleiser film yeah who made Honey I Blew Up the Kid mmm and Grease did you know there's a new TV show where Big Top Pee Wee where Elizabeth Banks has shrinked and it's like what's shrink there's like a Honey I Shrunk the Kids TV show well it's not it's not Honey, I Shrunk the Kids, but it's called A Miniature Wife and Matthew McFadden shrinks Elizabeth Banks. I just think it's funny.

2:34:11David Sims:I'm going to say this from the bottom of my heart. Oh my god, this is coming up. Yeah, it's coming out soon. He made her tiny. He made her small. It's literally Honey, I Shrunk the Kids, but it's Elizabeth Banks. You can just imagine McFadden going like, oh. Which platform is this on? I believe Peacock. I'm going to say this from the bottom of my heart. I think we need to create Skynet and use it to destroy the servers that all of these streaming platforms use. I think we need to wipe this shit out. Enough is enough.

2:34:41Griffin Newman:Whatever the algorithms are that are making it like they've got to go. Yes. We need to do a movie about your mission to like tear out like servers in like Hollywood basements or whatever.

2:34:53David Sims:I'm like, I'll just I'll get a sledgehammer right now and just start.

2:34:57Griffin Newman:We fucking ran the number. McFadden, Elizabeth Bank, C shrinks her. It's enough. It gets,

2:35:02David Sims:the profit loss, it gets us there. And I don't know. We have to create an entity. We have to find a podkova. I don't know what we have to fucking do.

2:35:12Griffin Newman:Man, remember how often they say podkova in that movie?

2:35:16David Sims:We saw that film together. I still have so many questions. I've tried to work through... I've gotten somewhere. Still waiting on Christopher McQuarrie's remaining 800 hours of explaining why it's good. He tapped out after four. He did. I would love him to come aboard. I wonder I truly wonder how he feels about it I genuinely want him

2:35:34Griffin Newman:to go through a couple years of therapy yeah maybe write like a book even make another movie yeah and then like be like okay you know what fine in retrospect I made a couple

2:35:43David Sims:right I'm opening the final reckoning files right three million will remain redacted but three million will be released to the public maybe I didn't mean to do that many flashbacks

2:35:54Griffin Newman:um number four is a best picture nominee um from a director who we will cover on this podcast one day You're always saying we're going to cover her.

2:36:02David Sims:I'm always saying we're going to cover her. Penny Marshall. That's right. It's the motion picture Awakenings. Awakenings. Wake up. Kind of just like ultimate, sturdy, Oscar bait movie. Why is Penny Marshall a joke? Great question, Esther. I genuinely think you should do it. No, great question. And I'm glad you're saying me up for this because I think the longer it's been a joke, the more people think... You're making fun of Penny Marshall. We would never do it and we don't think she's worthy of a series. But like, she is. Absolutely. 100%. and I actually want to do her as a series. Yeah, I need to do a penny episode.

2:36:34David Sims:Which penny would you want to do? A penny for your thoughts. I mean... You can't just call League of Her Own, so come on. You can... I'm not asking you to call one. I'm saying which one would you want to do in your heart of hearts? You can say whatever you want. I mean, obviously, I would want to do a League of Her Own. Noted. But you get someone more famous to do that. Sorry, you guys aren't big time now. Well, it's just A-Rod had told us he was interested. A-Rod? A-Rod's become a blankie and a checkmate. I mean... obviously I mean look riding in cars with boys would be fucked up to do

2:37:05Griffin Newman:that's fun yeah it's more fun than league of their own dude league of their own is kind of like yeah it rocks you know I mean it would be fun but like the weird ones are funner

2:37:14David Sims:also A-Rod has like a lot of takes on that one he said he has some personal stories that he thinks would be a good place to share no the actual answer is it was a bit very early into our run when we had been covering kind of like more obvious people and landed on that as the joke answer to throw people off our scent. It's a griff bit. And then now it has circled back to just, I can always say we're doing Penny Marshall next to divert people's attention from what we're actually doing. But to be clear... Which is Roman Polanski.

2:37:46Griffin Newman:Lester, you're on every episode.

2:37:48David Sims:To be clear, I would very much like to do... Depardieu Polanski. Just people who have... Other people have signed petitions in support of. I would very much like to do Penny Marshall. And I'd like to do it sooner rather than later. How's next week for you, David? Yeah, let's do it.

2:38:03Griffin Newman:Let's do it. Number five of the box office is a romantic comedy drama, uh-oh, about a young woman who falls forward and eventually marries an overbearing older man who proceeds to rub her close-knit family the wrong way. Would you believe that this film stars Richard Dreyfuss? This is what about Bob? No, this is not a movie I really know. It's a Lasse-Hallstrom movie. It's his first English language film. The great Swedish director, Lassen Hallström, who became a very mediocre Hollywood director. Mediocre Hollywood director

2:38:35David Sims:is almost, yeah, too kind.

2:38:36Griffin Newman:He did make Chocolat.

2:38:37David Sims:Well, he made a couple of good American movies. We're coming back around. Everything's civil circle. Look, I watched Chocolat for the first time like two or three years ago after mostly knowing it as like ultimate Oscar villain. You took a bite. And I'm like, this shit rules. Yeah, Chocolat's pretty good. Obviously, being nominated for Best Picture is the worst thing that ever could have happened to it. I wish we had three chocolats a year. I think that like...

2:38:57Griffin Newman:Can I ask, what is chocolate about? Dude, what is it about? Dude, it is about, what if you were a stuffy French town and Juliette Binoche, like at her peak performance, showed up and started making chocolate and everyone just got so horny. And then Johnny Depp showed up. And Johnny Depp is there too, but he's on, you know...

2:39:15David Sims:Johnny Depp is like a Romani drifter who like steals her heart and then returns it to her. Alfred Molina seemingly coming straight from the set of Dudley Do-Right. He's just like,

2:39:26Griffin Newman:this chocolate is bad!

2:39:28David Sims:He's got the mustache and the cape and everything. Her daughter's Ponette, the saddest girl in the history of movies. Right, right. All right, I gotta watch this. It's a pretty silly movie. Judy Dench is an old lady

2:39:39Griffin Newman:who's like, the chocolate. The chocolate makes them horny. I will report back. I think that like, Gilbert Grape, Chocolat, are the sort of, I guess the two best Hallstrom Hollywood movies. I've never seen something to talk about. The Julia Roberts movie he made. Is there another 90s one? Cider House. Cider House. It's a movie that is, again, it's like if you remove the Oscar nominations, like the unjust wins that it got. Yeah. You're kind of like, oh, this is interesting. There's things about this that work. My princess of New England.

2:40:11David Sims:Yeah, personally, I think Cider House rules. Ah, boo. I had to do it.

2:40:16Griffin Newman:I liked it. I liked it. Cider House rules. but you know my life as a dog is like incredible like he made great movies anyway this movie I've never heard of I'll tell you the stars Richard Dreyfuss Holly Hunter Danny Aiello Laura San Giacomo so Andy McDowell's co-star also in Pretty Woman there's like a lot Jenna Rowlands is in it Roxanne Hart Tim Ghani I don't know this movie do you guys know this movie? Is the title a sentence? No it's like a very generic sounding title it's called Broken Hearts? No it's called Once Around produced by Griffin Dunn I wonder if he ever considered directing or something I have no idea he was producing a lot in that era though he produced Running on Empty so that's the top 5 number 6 is Green Card number 7 is It's Not a Tuma Number 8 is a movie called Popcorn what is that?

2:41:11Griffin Newman:that's a horror film isn't it about a haunted movie theater? oh I've seen this poster I've never seen this movie college students hosting a film festival stalked and murdered by a serial killer. Sounds fun. Number nine is The Grifters. Another Oscar holdover. Great film. Great film. And number 10 is Hamlet. I think the Mel Gibson Hamlet. Sure. Which is a very solid kind of like... I think I remember what Mel Gibson said. What did he say? It's clueless.

2:41:41David Sims:Oh, got it. You got a lot of the kings of the 90s in that 10. True. True? True Trifus, you mean? You got Macaulay and Arnie and Costner and Gibson. Totally. It's a snapshot of a movie star era.

2:42:00Griffin Newman:Definitely. I mean, hell, number 11 is Godfather Part 3. Well, look at that. Pacino's there. Number 12 is Jacob's Ladder.

2:42:07David Sims:Tim Robbins. The biggest. Tallest. He is tall. One of our tallest actors.

2:42:12Griffin Newman:I just saw Howard the Duck for the first time recently because I'm trying to watch every movie from 1986. You know what? I know this because you liked Ross Leupold's review of it. I thought it was funny. During, and it was, he got that notification during our Super Bowl watch. Was he excited? He was like, well, no, because you liked it and then a bunch of people started liking it. If I like a review, I don't mean to do this, but because I have a big following on Letterboxd, it, right. He was like, he was like, what the fuck is happening? I mean, his review to me nailed. I know you've discussed Howard the Duck many times on the George Lucas talk show, I'm sure.

2:42:44Griffin Newman:Yes. Duck tits. Yes, duck tits. Right. But his review nailed the whole thing to me. He's like, what bugs him is the duck is not funny. He's not trying and failing. He's not even intended to be funny. He's just grumpy about being a duck in the real world. The whole movie. Where's the point of the comic book character? He's like, eh, my wife's cracking duck. In this one, he's just like, what the fuck's up with me not being in my duck world?

2:43:07David Sims:It feels like real Lucas influence. That if he had been like, I read the comic book and I liked it and I hired funny filmmakers and I let them do whatever they wanted to do. Right. I'm not sure the movie works, but it's probably more of an out-and-out comedy. Right.

2:43:22Griffin Newman:I kind of went into it because of its weird status now, thinking like, this is going to be interesting. And then I put it on, I was like, this is like sludgy. Like, this is really slow and boring. Yeah. I prefer Garbageville Kids movie to Howard the Duck. I mean, and it fucking has Lea Thompson in it, who I would like run a thousand miles for. And she looks great. It also has a duck in it. Howard. The. Duck. and Tim Robbins is in it. I just remember. And Jeffrey Jones? He's really good. Yeah. Legally. In a movie.

2:43:58Griffin Newman:What am I supposed to do about the fact that half of Hollywood respects criminals, Griffin? What do you want me to do about this?

2:44:04David Sims:Stop inviting them to your birthday party. That's all I'm asking. I haven't had a birthday party. Well, I had one last year. What should I do this year? Invite Jeffrey Jones or just text him and ask what he's up to. Oh my God.

2:44:15Griffin Newman:1-800-Jeffrey. Cosby, Jeffrey Jones,

2:44:19David Sims:who else? Who else? We already invoked Kevin Spacey. Oh, sure, we didn't mention him. Cosby Run's maybe cut out. Polanski, we mentioned Polanski. Or it's Captain and Tripled. I was thinking, it is kind of nice that they got Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice made while Catherine Harrow was still alive, not knowing that we were going to lose her so soon. Yes. Like that that movie ends with her being reconnected with her dead husband whose top half has been bitten off so you don't have to look at Jeffrey Jones anymore. But the movie ends with you being like, she seems happy. Yeah, totally. She rocks in that movie.

2:44:52Griffin Newman:She's really fun in that movie. She's so good in that. Not a movie I remember that well otherwise.

2:44:55David Sims:Watched it again and it grew for me a little. It's fun.

2:44:58Griffin Newman:It's fun. It's pretty fun. It's fun. I definitely was not like watching that movie. I was like, eh.

2:45:03David Sims:No. You know what movie rules? What? Beetlejuice. Sure. Well, a little bit less. Esther, anything you want to plug? My writing is... You're writing everywhere. Well, obviously my book has been a plug. rom-coms. So falling in love with the movies, rom-coms from the Skrill Ball era to today. I write many places including the New York Times and Los Angeles Times. So you can read my writing around there. I'm working on a new book that won't be out by this time. Are you allowed to say what it's about? Yeah, it's about the television show Girls. Hey, people are talking about it. People are talking about it.

2:45:43It will not be out by the time this is done. and maybe not up by the time I come back on the show. So we will see.

2:45:49David Sims:You're doing great. Thank you. You're the best. I appreciate you guys. In fact, I would say you are the best. Oh, never forget. You can do anything. Thank you. Esther, I've rewatched Aloha in the last year. And do you know that it secretly rips now? Okay, I should rewatch it. I've been trying to get David to rewatch it. But if you get around to rewatching Aloha, please touch base with me. I will. I would rewatch. Because I really... Should we do a reunion pod?

2:46:13Griffin Newman:Let's not go crazy.

2:46:15David Sims:It's only an hour 45. It's not like a big task. Let's say aloha to our previous episode on Aloha. And meanwhile, say aloha to our new episode on Aloha. Here's another thing. I bought the Blu-ray and I dug into the special features. There's a 20-minute alternate opening with Jay Baruchel as Bradley Cooper's brother, who is entirely cut out of the movie and has multiple scenes.

2:46:35Griffin Newman:Sounds like they really had a handle on that movie.

2:46:36David Sims:There's also like a 15-minute alternate ending. It's insane.

2:46:40Griffin Newman:Sounds like they definitely knew what was going on in that movie.

2:46:42David Sims:Thank you all for listening. please remember to rate, review, and subscribe. Thank you to Esther Zuckerman for being here. Tune in next week for...

2:46:50Griffin Newman:We have our episode on Fearless with guest Timothy Simons. Hitmaker, you mean. Hitmaker. And over on the Patreon, just a few days ago, we released a special Ben's Choice episode on the film Edge of Tomorrow. Slash Live, Die, Repeat. Yep. Slash All You Need Is Kill. Love that movie. Excited. well I mean we haven't recorded yet but I'm sure it went great

2:47:18David Sims:or have we recorded it like 150 times there's gonna be so many bits so many bits

2:47:23Griffin Newman:let's have like two but anyway if you're interested you can sign up for Blank Check special features over at patreon.com slash Blank Check hell yeah

2:47:34David Sims:Esther you could just get in front of David's mic for one second here I'm just trying to remember the movie Aloha It's about the sky. We're ASMR again.

2:48:12Griffin Newman:with additional music by Alex Mitchell. Artwork by Joe Bowen, Holly Moss, and Pat Reynolds. Our production assistant is Minnick. Special thanks to David Cho, Jordan Fish, and Nate Patterson for their production help. Head over to blankcheckpod.com for links to all of the real nerdy shit. Join our Patreon, Blank Check Special Features, for exclusive franchise commentaries and bonus episodes. Follow us on social at blankcheckpod. Subscribe to our weekly newsletter, Checkbook, on Substack. This podcast is created and produced by Blank Check Productions. Well, then I'm going to start rolling. Are you going to do a French accent?

2:48:48Griffin Newman:Better. Better push that nose up. Get a little hunch. Push it up and then push it down, kind of? We can discuss.

2:49:00David Sims:All this is going at the end of the episode.

2:49:02Griffin Newman:Sort of the contours of that nose.

2:49:04David Sims:Okay, ready?