Hail, Caesar! with Shirley Li

9:40David Sims:Can I become the bizarro DJ Khaled of cinema?

9:46David Sims:Hail Caesar A great film A masterpiece Yes a wonderful film I have a very distinct memory of you and I We were at Ray's Pizza getting ready to go to the final showing ever at the Ziegfeld Theater. We certainly did go to that. It was fucking Force Awakens playing in its second month in January before it closed. And we went to that. We were getting pizza beforehand. You told me you saw Hail Caesar earlier that day. You said it's really great. And I said, that's awesome. I love when the Coen brothers do their kind of just like fun romp things. And you looked at me very seriously and went, no, this is like a masterpiece.

10:22Griffin Newman:Absolutely. I mean, right. It was released in what, February? Right. Right. So it's like, I feel like everyone was kind of like, okay, so this is just a convection, you know?

10:31David Sims:It was also sold in a very similar fashion to Burn After Reading of like, we've got a bunch of big stars doing silly stuff. And that movie, as I like to remind people, did bizarrely well. It's completely forgotten. It felt like they were doing the exact same marketing tactic. And I was like, I'm on board for another one of those. And you were like, this is profound. This movie is profound. It's about everything. I saw it I was not befuddled by it but I was like yeah it's fun I don't know if I quite see what David's seeing I think you more had the reaction most people had to it of like fun fun yeah and some great stuff in it and then it was one of those movies that like two weeks later I was like I gotta go see that again and I was like

11:09Griffin Newman:hmm I think I saw it three times in theaters

11:11David Sims:I saw it at least two if not three I've watched it at least five times since then it's a movie that fucking rocks and rolls and speaking of rock and rolling our guest today You might know her best as... Should we hold off on this? No, let's do it. Friend and co-worker. What if you never do it? We've done that bit, and it's fine, but I feel like it's sort of like, you know. It also works better when we do it to Hoffman because he gets more irritated by it. Oh, he wants to be introduced. Yeah, and we've held off, and now he starts introducing himself. From The Atlantic, Shirley Lee. Far too long.

11:45David Sims:One of the most requested, why has it been so long since Shirley was on the show? And the reason why is people go, all around great guest. Great personality, great jokes, great laugh. But more than anything, she unlocks David. David is in rare form whenever Shirley is on the show. The key to the...

12:03Griffin Newman:Oh, Shirley. The dog is off the leaf. You've only been on two episodes. It's crazy. I'm nervous being here. I feel like the last time I was here, I don't know. I caused a ruckus. People want the ruckus. What was the ruckus? I remember that's a famous episode that got fucked up In the audio boom days That's the ruckus Wait what episode? Ponyo I mean it was mostly fun but it was one of those episodes Where chunks of it got messed up Oh I don't remember that It's like Mad Max, Ponyo, Public Enemies of the Big Three I remember Yes Where like after the fact you were like the system overloaded Jeez Ben you turn 40 and you forget Well I think there's a reason Why I've blocked them out And I think it's because it became an actual nightmare Right, that year, which is the last year at Audioboom Studios, it started to really be a problem.

12:50Griffin Newman:Because then we had our Mad Max episode that got all fucked up. That's what I'm saying. Yeah, and then this, which was not my fault. I wasn't accusing you. You were pointing at me this entire time. Your Honor, he's fine. 2020? 2020. Something went on then. Call the Wild came out.

13:11David Sims:David just saluted.

13:15Griffin Newman:never saw that one never checked I know Ben saw it I know Ben saw it

13:19David Sims:do you remember us ruefully in the pandemic being like can you believe we didn't take the opportunity to go see Call the Wild in a theater we're here in our fucking bedrooms locked up in June 2020 and we could have been seen Call the Wild with a big bucket of popcorn surrounded by rowdy strangers so this is your Eddington yeah so Shirley

13:37Griffin Newman:you were on our Sense and Sensibility episode of course in which Ben was baffled by the concept of a deathbed which I've never forgotten what happened to that guy

13:44David Sims:You see him dying at the beginning of the movie and they never follow up. One of the greatest Ben questions of all time asked in earnest. And I think you even said that guy's on his deathbed and then they never tell you what happened to him. Did he make it? Well, you said that in the first like two minutes, I think. Yeah. I needed to get clarity. It's important. And it was framed as I was so confused by this movie. And we're like, list the things that confused you. And that was top of the list.

14:13Griffin Newman:You were on a Ponyo episode A movie that back then I had seen many times Now I have seen such a staggering amount of times That I know like every single You've watched Ponyo as much as you've brushed your teeth Yeah Wait And then we cannot forget Shirley His hygiene is not great Oh boy You cannot forget Shirley That you did appear on our Wendell and Wilde episode To recount that dark day Oh yes, the terrifying evening When I saw you as like as like one of the infected from 20 days later.

14:44David Sims:Yeah. He was infected with a rage fire.

14:46Griffin Newman:I was like, I was like, You're so pale. Like, I was like hammering like a panel. He was on all fours eating worms out of the ground. And then we just went to some random room in like the middle of the building. We went to, they had like lounges upstairs and lounges downstairs. And we just like sat there looking at each other in our pajamas just like, what time is it? I tried to sleep and you just kind of continue to go. I just like stared into space. My daughter woke me up at 3 a.m. a couple days ago. Nice work if you can get it. Seriously. And I go up there and I'm like, what is it? You know, it's kind of, you know, because you're like, okay, you had a bad dream.

15:23Griffin Newman:And she was just like, it's dark outside. And I was like, it's the middle of the night. That's what happens. How funny would it be if your daughter,

15:32David Sims:you find her awake at three o 'clock in the morning and she's just tapping a security panel bleary eye? And you're like, fuck, she really is my style. I want to be clear. It was the tapping of the security panel while also trying to message the Airbnb hosts. While also, I don't know how you did this. Both hands rubbing against each other in fright. But it was, the fire alarm was going off in the building.

15:57Griffin Newman:Yes. Which was not our doing. And then you set off. I compounded it by activating a security alarm on top of the fire alarm. I mean, it's funny thinking back, right? It's funny. Not right. It's funny. I just remember that I couldn't see, and this is a true tragedy, Darren Aronofsky's The Whale at TIFF because I was so fucking tired because of that. So I had to see it later. I did get to see it though, so don't worry. While you were at TIFF though, the only thing you knew about it was that one image.

16:31David Sims:David, for the listener, is doing a perfect impression of the picture. Can I make a request? Can I make requests? Yeah. Can you do Leo at the Flowers Moon table? Right, right. No, isn't he looking up? Oh, is he looking up? I can't remember. Oh, cut, cut. Let's retake this. Aren't the hands more forward on the table?

16:49Griffin Newman:You're correct. You're referring to, again, this is somewhat deep lore for our listeners who might not know.

16:53David Sims:One publicity still.

16:55Griffin Newman:Two movies that had for what felt like a year, only one publicity still. Now, the Killers of the Flower Moon one was fine. It was Leo and Lily Gladstone sitting at a table. It was a little boring, but there was nothing that odd about it. The whale one, of course, was just, you know, Brendan Fraser in this makeup going like, and you're just, and like, it's called the whale. And at a certain point, you're like, this is starting to feel insulting.

17:22David Sims:It was just that one image. And then they revealed the poster and the poster was that image with text over it. That was the funniest heightened to just be like, and the poster is once again, just the look. just the look the look

17:36Griffin Newman:okay so let's get the flowers of the killer moon face one more time and also it's called killers of the flower moon but I actually changed it to flowers of the killer moon do you say cut on yourself that's the horror version that's the that's the lived I repeat and then of course there's my favorite movie flowers of the lazy old moon

17:51David Sims:oh lazy here's a conversation I want to pin that we're gonna have which of these fake movies great question looks the best okay so what do you most wanna watch alright so let's talk about I said pin for later but I guess we're doing it now for later. David's trying to skirt the impression. What's the impression I have to do?

18:07Griffin Newman:Do the table. Oh, let me get the image. Okay. I want to really study it. I want to bring in my sense memory. Okay, yeah. God bless you, Sharon. It's this. Yeah. Oh, the hands are under the table? They're under the table. And then I'll do, I'm going to do Lily Gladstone now. Yeah, okay. Good, right. And she's kind of bummed. She's got a shawl over. David is kind of, yeah, like cradled himself. She looks cold and he looks sweaty. The thing is, and then I saw that movie really early because of Can. And it was the Leo pointing at the screen meme when they're sitting at the fucking table. You're like, yes, yes, here they are.

18:40David Sims:Our buddy, Saddam, past and future guest, wrote a really good piece about how interesting that shot is in the context of the movie. I mean, that scene in the movie is so good. Right, and it's so different than what, as a fucking online-pilled movie obsessive, you would imagine the scene was after 18 months of seeing it. The scene in The Whale, too, where he goes like this. Yeah.

19:03Griffin Newman:It was also so good. Wait, again, again, again, again. 80 % of the movie.

19:06David Sims:The look. Again, again. One more. You know what movie blows goats? The Whale.

19:15Griffin Newman:The Whale. The Whale is one of those movies that, like, my children will come to me decades from now being like, is this fake? This won awards? Like, people melted gold and put them in casts?

19:26David Sims:It is an anecdote I've repeated so many times, but my younger sister, Romley, who was born in 1998, watched American Beauty for the first time like five years ago in the pandemic and was like, can you explain to me how this happened? Was like, I'm just actually befuddled. Explain to me what I was too young to understand. This came out and was a box office sensation and swept the Oscars in one of the most iconic years of all time in American cinema. What do you mean? American Beauty, it's got a great pitch. So there's this pedophile. And what are you talking about, Griffin? I mean, like, all she needs to do is just watch a plastic bag drifting in the wind.

20:03Griffin Newman:It is so funny. They're like, what's the A plot? It's like, he wants to fuck a high schooler. I'm like, Jesus. Okay, what's the B plot? These teens get really into a plastic bag. They're like, are you fucking kidding me?

20:13David Sims:That's the B plot. This guy wants to fuck his daughter's friend. Oh, so that's the conflict? No, he gets what he wants. No, he's, that's the goal. That's the quest. He's miserable that he has a career in a nice house. I have no notes. I don't know what you're laughing about He gets shot at the end And the audience cheers No they cried No they're sad about it Yeah We won the death of a hero Gloucester Berman said What we were all afraid to say

20:40Griffin Newman:Best picture best picture It's also so weird People were yelling Best picture best picture He like jacks off to fucking roses What a weird guy What a weird movie Doesn't he say That movie has so much masturbation in it.

20:56David Sims:Does he say bashing the bishop or choking something?

21:00Griffin Newman:He has the whole bit where he says five euphemisms. When Annette Bening walks in on him in the shower. I was doing this, doing that. I can't remember what they were, but yeah. Saying hi to my father. Spanking the monkey! It's sort of like an Austin Powers moment.

21:12David Sims:Yeah, it is.

21:13Griffin Newman:Right?

21:13David Sims:Where he's like, oh, oh, oh. And of course, he would later become Dr. Evil. In many ways. Hail Caesar. Have you ever seen American Beauty? Yes, I have. I feel like we're bumming people out. We keep going down. Lazy old moon. Okay, yes. Let's get back to this. When I'm on the lazy old moon sequence, I am like, it would be really fun to watch this whole movie. It's hardest to imagine the scenes around it where I'm like, this could go anywhere. What do you think happens? I don't know. I think he lassos the moon. I hope so. I hope he lassos the moon.

21:50Griffin Newman:Oh my God. I hope he lassos that damn moon. So I opened the, you know, the dossier, which we can start looking at for Hail Caesar, written by J.J. Bursch. And then I got a chat notification within the dossier from J.J. Bursch saying, say hi to Shirley from me.

22:09David Sims:Tell him he's fired. Tell him that Shirley has fired him. No. Hey, Jage. Miss you, Jage. What's the name of the No Dames movie?

22:24homoeroticism. Because we have

22:27David Sims:Hail Caesar the Tale of the Christ. We have right. I guess the main ones are Lazy Old Moon, the No Dames film, the new Lawrence Lorenz film that Hobie's doing. I'm trying to find the names of all of the And then the aquatic. Merrily We Dance is one of them. I think Merrily We Dance is the Tatum. Yeah. Yeah. I'd assume.

22:52Griffin Newman:Right. Which is that sort of an Anchors Away or On the Town type movie. Obviously, Hail Caesar is sort of like a Ben-Hur movie.

22:58David Sims:To me, that is the most transcendent sequence in the movie. Which is, sorry. No Dames. No Dames. It's very funny. Every time I watch that, it is like nirvana for me when we will talk about it. In that it smells like Teen Spirit. But I do, I am most interested in the idea of watching 90 Minutes of Lazy Old Moon. Whereas watching the No Dames sequence, I'm like, that's a full meal. Yeah. And I think it is that I want to know like how the relationships evolve in Lazy Old Moon and what any conflict is going to be. I like the old guy too. Yeah.

23:27Griffin Newman:A portly restaurateur. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's always good.

23:31David Sims:Like here's, okay, going off of what you're saying, Shirley, I could imagine the plot of that movie being Crazy Old Guy. Lazy Old Moon, Crazy Old Guy. Right. Tell Hobie, this dang moon keeps eluding me. Don't you have a good lasso? You have to bring the moon back to me. and Hobie's character has to figure out how to satisfy his demand, right? And then in the process, like fucking romances his daughter or whatever. So, okay, the movies are

23:58Griffin Newman:Hail Caesar, A Tale of the Christ, which has obviously been her co-vattice, those kinds of movies. Lazy Old Moon, a classical, what Variety used to call an O-Tuner, I think, which is like basically like a cowboy film with music. Exactly. Sort of a Roy Rogers type movie. Jonah's Daughter is the name of the mermaid, Busby Berkeley type movie. The whale. Did someone say the whale? Do the look. I think there's literally a movie called Million Dollar Mermaid that's one of those Busby Berkeley. Obviously, On the Town Anchors Away is sort of being done as... That movie doesn't have a title, so No Dames, I think, is the best.

24:40Griffin Newman:Merrily We Dance is the kind of Lubitsch-y, you know, society comedy. Right. It's complicated.

24:51David Sims:Pretty funny joke. That moment is another moment in this film that almost tears me up.

24:57Griffin Newman:Oh, like the final hammer of that joke dropping an hour later, basically. Or 45 minutes.

25:03David Sims:It's funny, and I love how they, yes, the patience and also the sort of circuitous way they resolve that storyline. but also I'm like, I actually find it kind of emotionally profound. Like, I think that is not to get ahead of things, but like, especially that that scene is Frances McDormand, right? Wife of one Coen brother playing an editor, the position that the other Coen wife occupies, right? These two ultimate wife guys who love making movies with their wives, right? And love movies. And you have this scene where like, she is playing an editor showing this footage And in it, I think they are quietly capturing the magic of like, you have seen this fucking disastrous day of shooting where you're like, how is anything good going to come out of this?

25:52David Sims:Right. And they can't get this fucking line out. And even before the hammer blow of, oh, they cracked it. They figured out what his movie star persona is. You need to adjust it around him. but if you change the line he'll nail that delivery so fucking hard and it will convey something greater than what was the original plan the sort of like living text of like what they say that like movies get written three times right they're written on paper they're written on the shoot and then written in the edit right and that's like a thing that i think the cohen's like love that feels like magical about movies but also in the assembly she's showing him before you get to that line, you see two shots of him closing the door and him walking from the door to the couch that when you see them play out earlier in the movie, you're like, this is horrendous.

26:40David Sims:His walk is so awkward. He's doing this cowboy walk. He's like clearly self-conscious about how big the door was and he looks behind him. And in that moment, it's like these are laughing films of like this guy can't pull this off. And in the way that they edit it, it suddenly has a new context where him looking back at the door behind him is because they placed the insert shot of the briefcase in the hallway before it and his awkward walk when framed from like shoulders up feels like nervousness rather than this guy doesn't know how to walk and like that magic of it and he doesn't like fucking brolin doesn't overplay it he doesn't have some tears in his eyes moment he doesn't go that's the magic of the movies but i do see on his face he's like yeah these things you give him time and they work out.

27:27David Sims:I was right, you know? It's true. And then she nearly chokes to death. Well, no, it happens right before. That's the thing. He saves her from death and then he sees it's complicated.

27:43Griffin Newman:It's a miracle moment. Well, so much of the magic that has worked in this movie is sort of serendipitous. It's not Eddie. Eddie is often kind of like, oh, I figured itself out. you know sort of burnt after reading adjacent in a way that fucking moment at the table too with

27:59David Sims:allison pill where he's like oh that problem solved itself right right exactly i find that moment very moving and it ties the whole film together for me right it's like it's like at home at work he has all these things that he needs to take care of or he thinks he needs to take care of but it's kind of like the magic of the movies that you're talking about also kind of bleeds into just the magic of working in the movies yes and it all it all works itself out it does but But does it without someone caring about it? That's, surely, that's the X factor, right? Like, the moral conflict at the center of this movie, at least within the Eddie Mannix character and his arc, right?

28:35David Sims:Is the, like, is this job killing me? Am I, like, babysitting lunatic children all day and, like, putting out insane fires for something that feels frivolous, right? At a time where, like, Hollywood is mostly into, like, Like, distraction entertainment, escapist entertainment, light fare, because people need to, like, forget their troubles, you know?

28:57Griffin Newman:Got you guys this character poster.

28:58David Sims:David, pin in that. We're going to talk about that for, I do not exaggerate, 45 minutes. Pin in that. That's also the magic of the movies.

29:11David's doing the whale again. It really doesn't work for a podcast.

29:13David Sims:I know, but it's so funny when he does it. And by the way, guys, we're not going to video. So. Wouldn't be as funny on video. It wouldn't. I agree. it's the theater of the mind Eddie Mannix is a real guy constantly but also

29:27Griffin Newman:a semi-fictionalized version of a real guy

29:29David Sims:this movie is not attempting to represent the real Eddie Mannix at all but they're using the name of a guy who was this type of guy who's played by Bob Hoskins in Hollywoodland that's right Hollywoodland yes I once had a well okay I had a birthday party at a Lowe's theater and we watched Hollywoodland and I well there was nothing coming out that weekend.

29:52Griffin Newman:How were Lowe's theaters? 2005 or 2006 or something? When was that? To laugh at me. You're not very young.

30:00David Sims:My memory is that all Lowe's theaters in New York became AMCs. Yes, they did. Around that time. This one did. This was in New Brunswick, New Jersey. And I turned to look at my friends and four of them had fallen asleep.

30:16Griffin Newman:Four out of four? your four friends. How dare you? Wait, so 2006, Shirley, I'm going to say you were what? 17? How old? 18? 15. 15. Jesus, you're a young person. Although it's not like now, and Shirley's having to deal with this now at the Atlantic. Uh-oh. Where I meet people, and I'm like, and they're grown people. Yeah. Fully grown. They work with me. This is the worst. And then I'm like, wait, when were you born? And they're like, you know, well, I'm this, or they say their age, and I'm like, were you born after 9-11? And they're like, no, no, no. I was born two months before 9-11.

30:53David Sims:I remember the first time I had a conversation with a child who had been born after 9-11. And I had the thought of, oh, it's crazy that children born after 9-11 can now string together sentences. You should be my sister. Talking to an eight-year-old. And I was like, it's crazy that someone born after 9-11 can be old enough to walk on their own two feet without support. And now, yes, they're taking over our workforce. They have their own jobs. They have their own opinions. I'm sorry. We're the last generation allowed to have opinions, right? It's disgusting.

31:29Griffin Newman:They should, right, exactly. They should be silent. They're trying to engage in the marketplace of ideas? Exit! They have a role? I cannot believe you saw, wait, so you said 15? You saw Hollywoodland when you were 15? There was nothing else. David, this is why Shirley is friends with us. I'm telling you. This is why Shirley

31:45David Sims:is on our show. I'm telling you. This is some real blankie-coated shit. Hollywoodland. To be like high school Hollywoodland birthday party. I was like, we're gonna go see Hollywoodland. Do you like it

31:55Griffin Newman:when Adrian Brody's tired? Yes. Oh, he's so tired in that movie. Because it's like that, the jacket, Cadillac Records, Brothers Bloom, like this run of like, well, he's still an Oscar winner where he has to play a tired guy. But don't you love Ben Affleck trying to be Superman, trying to do like... I have never seen Hollywoodland. Oh, jeez. Is it any good?

32:14David Sims:I remember... I remember Affleck was the one people talked about. I remember not liking Affleck's performance in it. Cool. Liking everyone else in it, thinking the movie was overall kind of a snooze. Not bad, but just... You were one of my friends who fell asleep. A little before.

32:28Griffin Newman:I might have taken a quick nap in the middle of that. Now, Cheryl, your birthday is early September. I know this because we often celebrate your birthday at TIFF. Yes, we do. So I'm looking at movies you could have seen then. Just doing a little sort of micro box office game. You could have gone to see The Covenant. You think I was? Come on. Isn't that like hot boys doing magic or something?

32:47David Sims:Yeah, Stephen Strait. Sure. Well, are you saying that Ben Affleck's not a hot boy? Yeah.

32:53Griffin Newman:Sebastian Stan, you could have gotten on the Stan train early. No, I know. I missed that train. That was one of the poutiest movies of 2006. But that's when the Sebastian Stan train was like a guy operating a hand. Right? It's like, so now the Sebastian Stan train. It was the blind push cart man from over others. Exactly. It's like a sleek bullet train that everyone's like, get me on that train.

33:12David Sims:I mean, Fantasy put it so well. Beyond just like him having these two movies last year that were such good showcases for actual acting. Right. He was like, Sebastian Stan shows up in Thunderbolts. And you're like, is this guy James Dean now?

33:24Griffin Newman:This is the 15th time he's played Bucky. And suddenly I'm like, this dude is fucking liquid gold. Exactly how I felt watching Thunderbolts. And he's in the first chunk where he's playing sad congressman Bucky. And I'm like, that is kind of funny, but like whatever. And then he rides in on a motorcycle looking like the Terminator. He finally has his own theme. His only theme before then in all his movies is just like a scream because he's the Winter Soldier. I was like, did Sebastian Stan become...

33:53David Sims:Really nice burn on that mic. Did Sebastian Stan become the CEO of Minute Maid? Because this guy has all the fucking juice.

34:01Griffin Newman:He really wanted to get that out. I just could not believe that my blood pressure was going up at the sight of Sebastian Stan. after years of me being like, yeah, C plus B minus on that guy. See, then you missed the train. I got on the train with Gossip Girl. But then did you ever get off the train? No, I didn't get off the train. I never got off the train. I was on the train during Once Upon a Time. I'm so sorry.

34:25David Sims:I was talking to past and future guest, John Gabrus, friend of the show, who I believe has a February birthday or January birthday. I'm a February birthday, but September is similar. Where in our childhoods, it was like, you're guaranteed. Slim Pickens. If you are a movie kid and your default is, can we do a movie birthday? You're going to go see some bullshit. And there was one year, I'm sure I've said this on the show, but despite being a February kid, in 2002, I was like, I'm going to make my birthday Spider-Man. And people were like, that's me. And I'm like, yeah, I'm just going to.

34:55Griffin Newman:Right.

34:56David Sims:You're like the Queen of England. I have two birthdays now.

34:58Griffin Newman:Right. I'm just saving my birthday party until Spider-Man comes out. I rule time. You could have seen the third weekend of the inspirational football drama Invincible. Not a bad movie Saw it on a plane Oh no I'm so sad I missed Invincible Directed by Erickson Core Yeah You never forget a name Like Erickson You never do He sounds like a sort of Thing you have to buy For your car Yes You're gonna need An Erickson Core Your battery is low You know Is burning out I mean You're not gonna find A film that I'm gonna be like Yeah Oh wait I saw Crank So you'd already seen it It came out the way before I had seen Crank With my dad The Illusionist with the little orange tree.

35:38Yes. I had seen all other options. I don't know. I thought I was getting on a horse that would run far. I don't know why. There was the mild, quiet,

35:48Griffin Newman:kind of like Affleck back. My friends will thank me

35:50David Sims:when Affleck is accepting an Academy Award seven months from now. They will be so sad that they're missing 15 minutes of this.

35:56Griffin Newman:No, because it's 2006. It's that he makes Gone Baby Gone the next year and everyone's kind of like, okay, Affleck back. Yes, but I'm saying the buzz in the summer

36:06David Sims:Oh, it was maybe he'll get a sneak an Oscar. I'm saying Shirley's logic was, my friends will judge me now, but when he wins the Oscar for Best Supporting Actor, they'll be like, Shirley? They're going to be like, she knows her shit. She knows her shit.

36:18Griffin Newman:So I'm going to open the dossier just right now. Instead, I had to apologize to them. Yeah. I think all of us in this room, Ben probably not, but the rest of us have had that screening we dragged our friends to, where afterwards you had to actively be like, I'm sorry that I made you come to this. For me, it was Alexander. like I got a lot of people ready you know like and they they were ready to feed me to a mob after that like they like throw me to the lines

36:43David Sims:I had already seen Hulk and I told all my middle school friends you don't understand movie of the summer I'm going again we all gotta go and I truly I cannot believe I made it out of that night alive they were all they were all just as angry what the fuck are you talking about was the energy

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38:19David?

38:20David Sims:Yeah? Ben and I are four-eyed cool guys. And here's the thing with glasses. I don't know if you know this experience, Ben. You're living a compromised lifestyle. because it's so annoying to get rid of glasses and get a new pair. It's so expensive. It is. It's so time consuming. The tiny screws hurt your fingers. You got to get a new prescription. It's a whole to do. It's a production. So most of us just live with it. But wait a second. Zenni Optical fixes all of that, Ben. What? Yep. Zenni is an online eyewear shop. Prescription glasses, sunglasses, blue light lenses starting at under$30. You stop asking, do I really need new glasses?

39:00David Sims:And you start asking, why wouldn't I just get them? You do it in that voice. You go, why wouldn't I just get them? You're not agonizing over one pair that has to do everything for the next two years. You get the ones for work. You get the fun ones for when you're partying. You get the pair that only matches one outfit. Yet they got over 150 ,000 five-star reviews. And if you've never bought glasses online before, Zenny has a virtual try-on so you can see exactly how a frame looks on your face before you commit.

39:27Griffin Newman:I'm sorry, Griffin. They actually have 150 ,001 because I just left a five-star review that says,

39:33David Sims:great. That is very, very kind of you. If your glasses are overdue for a refresh, now is the time. Go to zenni.com slash podcast and use code podcast15 for 15 % off your first order. The styles sell out, so don't sit on it. That's Z-E-N-N-I dot com slash podcast, P-O-D-C-A-S-T. Promo code podcast15. David, I'm sorry for excluding you from this act.

40:03Griffin Newman:That's okay.

40:10Griffin Newman:In 1998, I'm opening a cut dossier. Ethan Cohen said... I'm going to finish my Annie Manx point later. I'm just pinning that along. Oh, fair enough. I'm sorry. I just want the listener to know I haven't forgotten. told the Los Angeles Times that the English brother had done some writing assignments before adapting other people's scripts on an unattributed basis. The Coens say, we don't really want to put our names on stuff like that because we're not really in control of it. Yeah. And I feel like movie fans know that, that occasionally the Coens have done a pass on a movie you liked that they didn't get any credit for.

40:39David Sims:PTA. Right. Much like PTA. Now there's more stuff he gets credit for, but I think there's a lot of shit where people are like, PTA, can you spend a weekend and just make this dialogue more interesting? Absolutely, yeah.

40:48Griffin Newman:Yeah. In the mid to late Early to mid 2010s They start to get some credit for some of these So you got Gambit of course Which was eventually released sort of Yeah You have the Angelina Jolie film Unbroken Yes Which they have a credit on

41:04David Sims:Uh huh

41:04Griffin Newman:Bridge of Spies of course Bridge of Spies Which supposedly they really just did The sort of chunk in the middle Yes Where he's in Berlin Yeah Right Berlin Jesus Yes Yes and Unbroken they came aboard late after Jolie was attached Angelina Jolie directed that movie and she basically was like I want you guys to come aboard I want the film to have structure and wit and playfulness between the men you know which is very interesting that like I don't think that movie's very good but that Jolie who I think is a more talented filmmaker than some credit for had the sort of like knowledge of like here's the like here's what needs strengthening in the movie and weirdly I think the Coen brothers will work for it.

41:49David Sims:I'm not hiring you to do the Coen brothers thing. I'm recognizing that you are multi-skilled and you're good technicians and I want you to just help crack this. Of course, Lady Killers and Talbore Quirality both start out as assignment jobs for them that they weren't going to direct and then become. When we've talked about those movies already.

42:06Griffin Newman:Brad, and she mentions that she knew them partly because Brad Pitt had done Burn After Reading when she was with him when that happened. I was checking notes and that marriage ended perfectly. And she was with Billy Bob Thornton. It was unbroken, yes. People forget she was with Billy Bob Thornton when he did Man Who Wasn't There. So she had experienced the Cohen process twice. David is pounding the table.

42:25David Sims:I don't want to be crass, but I'm just quickly imagining a life in which you wake up every morning next to Angelina Jolie. Sure. You go to set and film The Man Who Wasn't There. Right. You have to play cuck of the year. And then you wrap production for the day and you go home and you have sex with Angelina Jolie. No, you can't.

42:42Griffin Newman:I'm sure he could not it would have broken his character into a billion pieces

42:47David Sims:I think I think Billy Bob's got the range

42:49Griffin Newman:yeah he does

42:50David Sims:I think that's what makes Billy Bob Billy Bob is that he could do that that he would wrap for the day take off his toupee put his vial of blood necklace back on now around when they're

43:03Griffin Newman:and they go to Poundtown I don't want a picture no picture picture it oh around the time that they're working in Hail Caesar these are certain things That's why JJ, I think, is giving us this color. This is the kind of stuff they're working on around Hail Caesar.

43:16David Sims:And this is a nice kind of swan song for JJ.

43:19Griffin Newman:Yeah, exactly. They claim that they were working on a sort of sword and sandals movie. I always wondered if that was a joke or not. Because obviously this movie has a sort of parody of a sword and sandals movie in it. Sure. They also claim they were working on a musical where the main character was going to be an opera singer. Never has been realized. Another thing that happened around this time is that Suburbicon, which is a script that they had written back in 1986, essentially, starts to spool up with George Clooney in the director's chair. And George Clooney added a little twist to it. Poop.

43:55Griffin Newman:Honkshu, honkshu. A movie I still never seen. You never seen Suburbicon? It is insane. Yeah. Because it is half a Coen Brothers script and half a George Clooney script. Yeah. And the Coen Brothers script is like, you're like, yeah, this is like a Coen Brothers movie. It's like, you know, dumb gangsters. Then the other half is this like really somber tale about like integration and like, it's so weird. Such a weird movie.

44:16David Sims:It is just funny that I feel like, right, this era of their names actually getting credited on these things they wrote kept having this juice of like, holy shit, the Coen brothers wrote Unbroken? Is this going to win Best Picture? And then people saw it and they were like, oh, they clearly were like skilled hired hands on this. This does not have Coen brothers identity. They screwed some nuts on this movie. And then like Suburbicon and Gambit, people were like, oh, I guess these scripts only work if they direct them themselves. And like Bridge of Spies, which we love, as you said, it's like they were kind of pinch headers.

44:46Suburbicon, I remember being one of those when I was still at EW. I don't know if this is sharing trade secrets. Maybe it is. But it's like when we would do the fall movie preview, summer movie preview, whatever. Insert season here, movie preview. Some people would see some of the films in advance. And I remember this one because of the pedigree. It had a little bit more room on the page. And then as the buzz. As the bus died down, it got smaller and smaller. And I remember it was a tiny little piece of that preview.

45:12David Sims:Just a little circle. Yeah. It was a tiny little circle. It was one of those movies where you were looking at the fall preview and you were like, I don't know if this is going to win Best Picture, but I am guaranteed to have a good time. You're like, Clooney's directing a Coen script with Julianne Moore, Matt Damon, and Oscar Isaac. Right. I will have a blast. And everyone came back and was just like, huh, weirdly anti-fun. The opposite of interesting.

45:37Griffin Newman:So back when George Clooney first works with the Coen brothers, in a little movie called Oh Brother, Where Art Thou? They sort of fall in love.

45:43David Sims:They're like, this guy is so good at playing idiots. We love idiots. They match really well with him. We have a movie star who unlocks financing immediately.

45:50Griffin Newman:Also true. Yes. And they, at that point, apparently tossed off an idea to him that's kind of like, what if like a matinee film idol who's making like a Ben-Hur type movie gets kidnapped? Sure. That was sort of the intent. That was like the entirety of the pitch.

46:04David Sims:There was also, at some point, they were teasing, because they do Intolerable Cruelty, which once again, like, kind of comes together weirdly sideways, and they plug Clooney into it. And they're like, now that we've done two, we need to complete our idiot trilogy. And they kept saying the third movie in the idiot trilogy will be Hail Caesar. They had the title. They did. They always had that title. People would push them on it. They were like, it's basically a one-sentence idea. There's no script. We haven't really cracked it, but we like the idea. And the other thing that would always get thrown out was like, he's in a traveling company doing a production of Julius Caesar.

46:36Griffin Newman:That is another idea that they definitely explained as like, maybe that's what Hail Caesar is. I feel like, like you said, they were sort of like, Hail Caesar, set in past, acting involved, Clooney stupid. Him playing old-timey dumb star in some kind of period piece. Apparently another thing they pitched at that time was called Adolf Terry Hitler, an alternate universe comedy in which Hitler's parents emigrated to L.A. in the 1900s and their son grows up to be a Hollywood big shot and the eventual manager of a Hitler agency.

47:08David Sims:There's shit like that where I wonder if they're trolling us or if on their cloud drive there is the greatest group. Right.

47:15Griffin Newman:Or they wrote 30 pages and they were like, what are we doing? And then those 30 pages are very funny. No, no, no. Guys, I think they were just, you know, their brothers playing Mad Libs. Adolf Terry Hitler. I think they were having a great little sleepover. They start generating. Right. And they would always tell George that his character would, quote, be a gas-baggy fathead. And for some reason, that really appealed to him. Ethan, gas-baggy fathead is George's forte. So Hail Caesar would come up a lot. But of course, what they call the numbskull trilogy, you know, they end up making intolerable cruelty.

47:49Griffin Newman:And then they do burn after reading. And people are like, I guess Hail Caesar was never a thing. Right. After Burn After Eating, George said, like, have I played my last idiot for you guys? You know, it's sort of like, you know. But it was always on IMDb. Clooney notes this. Yeah. That because I guess they talked about it enough, there was literally just kind of like, Hail Caesar, Joel Cohen, Ethan Coen, George Clooney, no plot, no nothing. Yeah. And so finally, they sit down to write the thing.

48:14David Sims:Mm-hmm.

48:15Griffin Newman:Because they're like, everyone's going to get too old anyway. and uh they describe it as a move about the movie business and life and religion and faith faith in the movie business and uh they eventually decided to make eddie manix the main character and george is like an important character but he's like george hosbrolin is the lead of the movie

48:34David Sims:yes it is funny how this film with its all-star cast just settled its billing order by alphabetical and yet that alphabetical ends up being Brolin, Clooney, Ehrenreich. I mean, it's serendipity outside of the movie and in the movie, right? Totally, but it's like the three guys are in the right positions. Yeah. And you're right, you're right. I just always, it's kismet.

49:01Griffin Newman:So, you know, the characters they create, Scarlett Johansson's playing kind of Master William, Alden Erick is like Tim Holt, Channing Tatum is like gayer Gene Kelly, Clooney is kind of like a Robert Gay communist Jean Kelly One of the coolest movie star moves

49:17David Sims:for Channing Tatum at this moment of so much heat to be like I'm doing deep supporting for the Coens it is only three scenes but one of those scenes is going to require months of choreography and I'm playing a gay communist he's just like king shit I want to explore stuff I'm not like trying to preserve a like safe career I mean the months of training because he wasn't a tap dancer, right? Right. Like, and tap, like, so he does hip-hop dancing? Sure, he was the step-up boy. Yes. But yeah, tap, I mean. Stick it. No, yeah, step up. Step up. Stick it is gymnastics. You don't stick it in dancing. Yeah.

49:57David Sims:You're right. Stick it to messy paragraph and his five-star masterpiece. Good movie. Yes, yes. Yes, and we love gymnastics. We do. Yeah, right. So he spent months training in tap and tap is like, Like, I mean, I don't, I'm not a dancer. I take like adult ballet classes. I know. I'm in Hobby City over here. Okay, okay. And it's just kind of like tap is sort of impossible to get within a couple months. But look at this guy. He did it. Here's the thing, right? Like tap is like, the skill of tap is relatively invisible. We do not have to go down this tangent. But like tap is one of those, you know, forms where it's kind of like, you can't really tell what the skill is when you're watching tap dance.

50:38You hear the rhythms and things like that. But it's just like it just doesn't translate well as like a really skillful piece of I don't know, like a form of dancing.

50:47David Sims:Well, the magic trick is that it, especially I think how it's been historically used in American movies, is that it is this kind of like quietly graceful, off the cuff, I'm doing nothing sort of like that's the Gene Kelly magic. I'm just soft-shoeing around. Yeah. Right. And it's like you have to put so much work into getting it perfect and then additional work into doing it without showing any effort. Right. And it's like even beyond him having to learn tap on top of like what we're obviously trained like dance muscles and the right brain for it and all of that. This sequence is so complicated and just plays out in fucking like elegant wide shots.

51:23And he sells it like every second of it.

51:26David Sims:Yeah. Right. And you're just like that guy had to do a ton of fucking work for a really small part. Yeah. I'm like this is Olympic level where I want to give Channing Tatum a medal. I want to give him so many medals. I believe every second of that choreography, because yes, he trained until he got it right. But at the same time, it's like there's joy and delight in his face. The whole performance comes together. And that is so hard to do.

51:51Griffin Newman:But this is the second to last good movie he made.

51:55David Sims:Okay, so this is what I want to call out. So this was, he was at this point of like ascension, ascension, ascension. Yes. Right? Save for like a Jupiter ascending or two. We love those. He was on a fucking masterpiece. But he was on such a hot run, and it was like, this is the guy. And then he makes this.

52:15Griffin Newman:Yes. In 2016. In 2017, he does Logan Lucky, which I think he's great in. But weirdly flops. It doesn't do that well. And then he kind of disappears for like six years. No. Kingsman the Golden Circle, which he's bad in, and that movie's bad.

52:28David Sims:In 2018, no, he's bad. I think he's good in it. I think that movie is so insane because they clearly wanted him, and he was too busy. and so his character like shows up then is on ice and then comes back at the end. His character's name is Tequila. You just said he's on ice. I just want to put an asterisk. Ten comedy points. But the Pedro Pascal character is clearly supposed to be him as well and instead the movie does this like... You've done this rant on this podcast before

52:54Griffin Newman:which is fine. In 2018, of course, he is Migo. Because Endaya is Michi. Correct. In Smallfoot. And then yes, after that, it's basically like cameo and free guy is pretty much it until of course he returns with dog dog and the lost city right which is a big hit which is a hit and charming yes yeah and it was like

53:17David Sims:okay got it back yeah uh and then magic mike's last dance which is which is charming a movie i love but really kind of belly flopped and was not well received and then fly me to the moon which

53:30Griffin Newman:is unfortunately not for good. I respect him for trying that and he is woefully miscast. He's quite miscast. And then he was like, I'm about to go He's Gambit. Wait, do that again? What does he say? What's the line? We're about to make a name for ourselves. Whatever his thing is. The thing he does. He also, he blinked twice. Yeah, I don't. He really shouldn't have.

53:52David Sims:I think he's good enough. He's totally fine in it. I really hated that movie. I love him so much, but it is interesting that this felt like weirdly him doing this movie felt like such a show of power that it's like I'm so above it I can do anything I want I'm not worried about the game and then he kind of like completely like loses it disappears like waxes and wanes Lost City felt like oh he's back in the pocket doing the thing everyone loves from him and it was such a hit after years of no comedies connecting that it was like, okay, so he's unstoppable again. And then once again, he's stoppable.

54:29David Sims:Yeah. But this, I watched this movie and I'm like, this guy's like one of the best raw movie star talents we have.

54:35Griffin Newman:All right, but okay. Anyway. Back to the dossier. Alden Ehrenreich famously discovered when Steven Spielberg saw him on a video made for a friend's bar mitzvah. Correct. It was a comedy sketch that played at a bar mitzvah. His initial big role is in Tetro, a normal movie directed by Francis Ford Coppola that's normal.

54:52David Sims:Mm-hmm.

54:52Griffin Newman:highly normal film and then he's also in Twixt another normal one from Coppola I believe a small part although I haven't seen that one he's also in Beautiful Creatures that's him and Zoe Deutsch

55:04David Sims:being Beautiful Creatures it's Alice Engler yes it's Jane Campion's daughter yes Beautiful Creatures that was an attempt to find him his twilight he's the Edward Cullen I think it's like southern gothic fucking witches or some shit. He has a smallish role in Stoker,

55:26Griffin Newman:being a naughty boy. Quite good. He's good in that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's in Blue Jasmine. I honestly do not remember him in that.

55:33David Sims:He is... I just saw that one time. I want to say he's Cate Blanchett's son or he's Alec Baldwin's son. Right. He's got like two scenes he's very good at.

55:40Griffin Newman:And there was this film that the rules didn't apply to that he happens to be in as well.

55:45David Sims:This is the big thing. Which comes out this same year. Because Spielberg identifies him and marches him into whatever big agency he marched him into and was like, I'm telling you, this is like the discovery of a century. Which, I mean, still we're kind of not wrong based on what we've just been talking about. The actual ability of this guy, right? But there was this feeling of like, he's got it. And I think I knew him a little bit back in the day. And it was very interesting because you could feel the sort of pressure he had on him of everyone around him was like, you're the first DiCaprio we found in 20 years.

56:21David Sims:we have to game this out really, really carefully. And so there were like big things that he would pass on or that they would tell him to pass on because they were like, is that the move young DiCaprio would do? We should position you for auteurs. But then the auteur movies are like Tetra and Rules and Apply, which was this really coveted part. Interesting movies. But then they don't totally work. And then they were like, I guess we need to make you a teen idol so you have the box office cachet to get the better auteur movies. But then Beautiful Creatures is the one that doesn't work. Like he like tested for Spider-Man multiple times.

56:54David Sims:He tested for Harry Osborn. There was all this sort of like runner up shit. And he had sort of gotten into this place where there had been like so much energy around him for a decade. But he hadn't actually done that much because everyone around him was so overly cautious about what's the right move. And it's better to do less. They put it in Lazy Old Moon. Well, that's the magic of this movie being like, oh, Alden's in the Coen movie. and like it's just suddenly this miracle like fully arrived perfectly packaged incredible an incredible showcase role to launch a new talent but also it's about a guy who does it all nails it so fucking hard so charming like one of the best movie performances of the decade in my opinion I believe I nominated as such I love his spaghetti lasso it's astonishing and people were so fucking rude to him after solo and were like why the fuck did they hire this guy yes but not his fault we are musically

58:12David Sims:phemade He was hired by different directors to make a different movie. It doesn't work. But there was this energy of like, why'd they pick this fucking rando? And I want to be like, watch, hail Caesar, you ingrates. It was the wrong move for everyone involved. Did you like him in Bear Play? I never saw Bear Play. I didn't like that. I also didn't like that movie. Did you like him in Cocaine Bear? I actually liked him a tremendous amount in Cocaine Bear, a movie that I think is quite poor.

58:17Griffin Newman:is fairly rancid

58:19David Sims:and I think he's very good.

58:20Griffin Newman:Did you like him in... There's the name of a senator here. Like Oppenheimer? He's good in that. I do think he's good and he unfortunately gets saddled with the line. Can I ask a question?

58:30David Sims:What is Cocaine Bear about? Oh, it's about... It's about a... It's about a... Reaganism run amok. Guys, no. It's about a whale. It's about a whale. Do the look. It's going to hit every time.

58:43Griffin Newman:So, one note on Channing Tatum. He had auditioned for No Country for Old Men for the Josh Brolin part, which is hilarious. Yeah. He's like, I was far too young, but I was so desperate to just literally get in front of the Coen brothers then. I just wanted them to see me. You know what I like also

58:58David Sims:in a metal way about the use of Tatum here? Yeah. Is that Tatum does feel like he's a bit of a hobie, right? Sure. This guy that was sort of discovered without the aspirations of being a movie star. Yes, real. And it was just like, well, just dance on camera. And then people were like, you're pretty good on camera. Can we give you words? Yes. And it was like, well, you're not a great actor yet, but there's something here. and then he just like built and built and built and developed and unlocked all these skills. This film was shot in, huh, Los Angeles?

59:24Griffin Newman:Crazy. That never happens anymore. They sometimes call it on Shirley Bertha. Obviously, they needed it. You know, they needed to use these, you know, studios and backlots and all that fun stuff. It was a universal release, although, of course, Capital Pictures made it as far as, yes. They used the Warner Brothers lot, though, mostly and Union Station and things like that. Which was a real, I mean,

59:44David Sims:And it was made for a difficult shoot because Yakko, Wacko, and Dot kept escaping from the water tower and interrupting production. Jesus. And the good feathers showed up. Yeah. And that squirrel with the purse. Yeah. What's her name? And there were hippos who were a couple or some shit.

59:59Griffin Newman:It's funny that like. You know when you watch Animaniacs and it's like, ah, it's the squirrel with the purse. I'm going to zone out for five minutes. I hope they do the pictures soon. The truth is when they have the shot of the water tower, that's immediately where my mind goes. Of course. Of course. It is funny. It's like you'll be watching Oppenheimer or Tenet or whatever. And I'm like, yeah, but where's Wacko?

1:00:17David Sims:It is funny that Animaniacs and Pinky and the Brain were immediately and remain so sticky. And everyone just forgets there were like five other segments. Good Feathers was good. Good Feathers was good, but I do think is undersung. And then what was the name of the squirrel with the purse? Slappy. That's it. I think you're right. And she had a little kid or some shit. Who'd she slap with the purse? She hit someone with the purse There was a sidekick George Clooney Oh yeah

1:00:44Griffin Newman:Elderly grouchy cartoon tree squirrel Skippy squirrel was the Goddaughter or some shit So The Coen said This was shot on film And they were like This is probably the last movie We're gonna shoot on film Sad A little sad Bruno Delbanel Shot Inside Llewyn Davis Of course This is them getting back to the deke They go back to Mr. D. I think Deakins doesn't do Davis because of Skyfall. Yes. So this was Deakins returning to film, Celluloid, for the first time in a while. And he said, like, we kind of had to. We felt like for the era that we're, you know.

1:01:25David Sims:And I'll say this. This is one of the only modern movies I can think of that actually somehow captures Technicolor feelings. Right. Like three strip, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, when you watch old movies and you're like, why does fucking nothing look like this anymore? And Eggheads will explain to you the alchemical process that changed. And it's like, but why can't we, with our digital technology, make anything look this good again? And this movie, like, has so many different styles it has to emulate. And it emulates all of them better than I feel like most people are able to pull off with one focus.

1:02:01David Sims:They are the best. Yes.

1:02:03Griffin Newman:Re-Tatum's Dancing. the Coens offer him the part and he's like I don't sing or tap dance like I want to work with you so bad but just FYI I do not sing or tap dance it became a six minute song with tap dancing and the script apparently it's basically just like they do a song or whatever so they try to embrace his physicality surely that you're mentioning because he can do things like flips and jumps so they try to put as much of that and as Gatelli, the tap coach, what's his full name? Christopher Gatelli says, it's a really hard skill and he'd never tapped before ever. He learned 10 years of tap training in three months.

1:02:49Griffin Newman:It was the most amazing thing to watch. I'm just kind of like, is this Johan Santana throwing a no-hitter? Christopher. I know nobody gets that reference, but after he did that, he was never the same pitcher ever again. Yeah. And it's not like Channing's gone, but it's almost like did Channing overload himself learning to tap dance for Hail Caesar? Those six minutes. It's like taking him years to recover.

1:03:10David Sims:Truly, I'm like, it's, I don't know. I don't like in interviews with him, it doesn't feel like this guy lost it or he's washed. And I do feel like he talked about that, like, when he hit so big, when he had his like magic mic foul, what was it? There was the one year he had three hits in a row.

1:03:28Griffin Newman:Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:03:29David Sims:300 million dollar hits in a row and he became the most in demand guy. And I think he's like, I work too much. I like all the opportunities came in and I couldn't say no to anything. And I burnt myself out. And I like my marriage fell apart and I wasn't seeing my kid. And I was like, I want to take a break. And the break felt like a good mental health like space that then was maybe also elongated by pandemic and such. But I don't get the sense from him that like, oh, there's something he lost that he can't get back or there's something broken. Yeah, I think it's circumstances around him, right?

1:04:00But not circumcision.

1:04:03David Sims:We don't know. We don't know.

1:04:05Griffin Newman:I feel like there was a time he talked about burning his penis on set.

1:04:07David Sims:It was The Eagles. The production of The Eagles. A profile that I believe was an Esquire. I just want to say that the choreographer for that sequence, I'm reading here on the internet, he was also the resident choreographer for the Rosie O'Donnell show.

1:04:19Griffin Newman:Hell yes. Do we care? That's important. Choreograph the arc of those cruch balls. I'm calling Congress. They need to know this. the year is 2012 Griffith it's the vow 21 Jump Street and Magic

1:04:30David Sims:there we go that's his sort of really really insane he has 300 million dollar movies in the first six months of the year and they that's when they push back G.I. Joe which was going to be his fourth movie that year to be like we fucked up we got to shoot new footage and they split him up across the entire movie because he originally died in the opening scene right yeah I just think I think you're it's interesting what you're saying because you do watch this and even though this is a small performance in a small part of the movie in so many ways, you're also like the skill of what he's showing in the wattage and how hard he is selling just like multiple things at once while also like taking real chances.

1:05:08David Sims:It was like, has this guy just unlocked like 20 new chambers? Yeah, but here's the thing. He unlocks these chambers. I don't think I don't I don't think the opportunities unlocked for that for him because they weren't available. Do you know what I mean? Like it's kind of like, well, it's kind of the argument that there aren't movie stars and that the real movie stars became superheroes and then he was lined up to do that and then that didn't happen here's the thing i want to get your opinion on because we've talked about this in the past is like part of the wheel of the weird where did channing go thing similar to swayze where they were both male stars who were disproportionately popular with women and were very comfortable making the genres of film that are often seen as women's films?

1:05:53David Sims:And is that an audience that perhaps then wants to refresh with the younger guy faster? Versus like, did Channing Tatum ever totally... Channing. Channing. Did Channing. Did Channing ever totally win over dudes? That is a good question. Not to be very binary about it. No, no, I don't think so.

1:06:10Griffin Newman:Not really. Channing Tatum was never cool. Yeah. In the way you're describing. And there is... He was fun. There is a thing when guys are too... And I think people didn't take him seriously seriously. No. He doesn't help by being a big old goofball. Right. And then when he did Foxcatcher, when he's like, I'm making serious movies, it's like you're really suited to this role of kind of a lunkhead. He's amazing in that movie. I think he's great in it. I agree.

1:06:34David Sims:I think he's the best performance in that movie. But there's a similar weird... David's doing the Foxcatcher look.

1:06:41Griffin Newman:Don't call me Golden Eagle. I'm Nostrad.

1:06:47David Sims:My nose is so big. I think there's a similar weird Swayze drop-off where you're just like, how did this guy have fucking... Yeah, Swayze is a solid comp. ...ghost, dirty dancing, point brink. This guy's at the center of the fucking culture and he can do everything. And it's not like he has three embarrassing flops in a row and it makes sense. You're just like... It just weirdly kind of tapers.

1:07:11Griffin Newman:I think it's homophobia a little bit. Wait, Ben, what do you want to say? I was going to add, I feel like, though, he has pretty consistently done modeling and fashion-related work.

1:07:22David Sims:Channing remains a major celebrity, even as his movie stardom goes through weird waves. There will always be headlines about him because he has one project or another. I don't mean film or TV projects. He wrote some picture books with his daughter or something. His personal life is part of his professional life, even though I just said that the circumstances outside of his professional life affected him. I know we're hyperfixing and changing this episode, but part of what's interesting about this movie is how much it examines like the making of a movie star. Right. And how much of it is like timing, circumstance, crafting of a team around you, you know, sort of like context, opportunity, but also these weird X factors that are like someone connects.

1:08:06David Sims:Right. They work well on camera and the audience forms a relationship with them. And then you're sort of like, what is this relationship? and the success or failure to identify what is the thing that works about you and how can that be transmuted into other spaces so that you don't get repetitive. And some people, it's a real struggle to figure out what is the thing I need to keep track of while also not getting stuck in a rut. He's in Avengers Doomsday, his gambit. No, thank God. Did he get a chair? He got a chair. He got a chair. He got a chair. Oh, man, imagine getting a chair. Oh, Cherie. Okay, I'm going to do a sidebar for a second.

1:08:39David Sims:Right, that's what Gambit says. Brian Reynolds did so many fucking emotional posts of like, I'm so proud of my friend Channing Tatum. We had similar journeys of wanting so badly to play these Marvel characters and getting stuck in development hell and I knew that feeling of fighting 10 years to get the Deadpool movie made when no one believed in it. And I saw the same thing happen to him, but he never actually got to make it. And to see us finally find a way to let him play Gambit and the public react so strongly, such a win from him. And I'm like, the whole fucking movie frames Gambit is being like a dumb fucking idiot.

1:09:12David Sims:The bit is like he's boom howler. No, I understand that. But Gambit kind of is a dumb fucking idiot. I know, but I mean, God bless him. I'm like, look, like triumph of like, yeah, he got to wear the costume and people cheered and like, you know, he's funny in it. He's funny in it. This clearly isn't what he wanted to do with Gambit. I mean, it's not really the return of Gambit if you don't have Anna Paquin back as Rogue. And we really set that up. I'm just saying I have opinions. A woman can have opinions. I don't know. Did she go to a chair? I didn't watch that. I rely on you to tell me. They'll do an Avengers doomsday rope cut.

1:09:45Griffin Newman:It needs all chair recaps from me. I turn to you every day and I'm like, David. Chair news? Chair? What's chair? It would be funny if they restarted that and added one more chair. Just like a random guy. Just like, oh, and the catering's being done by these people. That's a good question. Is that feed still live and just hasn't been updated in two months? Do you want me to do the chairs? Yeah. Do you want me to read them aloud? It's two minutes long now. That sucks.

1:10:09David Sims:Chris Hemsworth. The worst thing was when it was the live stream during the day and every 30 minutes I had another chair. Anthony Mackenzie. I thought I really thought that. Five hours of my life. I don't know. I think I watched two chairs. And then I don't know. Like, what's your threshold? Letitia Wright. I kept going in and out. And then I went to see a movie. And then I came back. So you dipped with the chairs. The chair was small. It was a smaller chair. The camera. That's right. Because he's in it now. I think someone sent like a screenshot to that. To a group chat or something. And I was like, well, maybe I'll dip back into the chairs.

1:10:38But then I thought they wouldn't do anything else.

1:10:39David Sims:I was texting one of our group chats and everyone was like, I can't believe you're still watching this. And I was like, just to be clear, I refresh it once every 30 minutes. I'm not glued to it. I was glued to it. That's fair. I have control. I have power. Also, when you said group chat, I thought group chair. Joseph Quinn. That's actually really funny. Maybe we should rename it group chair. David Marber. It's just a thing. I don't know what that is. Here's an interesting thing in retrospect. They announced the entire Thunderbolt cast other than Olga Kortlarenko. Tom Hiddleston's good point. A real signpost to the fact that this person's not making it past the first trillion.

1:11:11Do you think someone on Olga's team was watching the whole thing, just hoping they'd do a fake out?

1:11:19Griffin Newman:I think Olga's team was like, we'll happily take the fourth billing and$1 million for five days of work. David, are you done reading the chairs? Channing Tatum. Okay. I mean, it's kind of like, you know, she shows up, does one line, and it's holiday days work. Robert Downey Jr. And there he is sitting in the chair. Heard of him.

1:11:37David Sims:And her one line is her superimposed, her face superimposed into a stunt woman's body as her mask retreats quickly and it goes back down. She's like, I'm not here for you. She might have done that in her.

1:11:46Griffin Newman:I mean, I swear to God. I mean, how could you be mad at her? I take God's name in vain. Yes. Just that where they were like, how many people in this team like fight with sticks? It's like, yeah, like four.

1:11:57David Sims:It's like, okay, we got to lose at least one of those guys. Like Jesus. How many like foreign ladies with severe personalities and masks? And she has the skills everybody else has because she didn't copy. Right, that's the other problem with Taskmaster.

1:12:10Griffin Newman:What's Taskmaster's power? He copies other powers.

1:12:13David Sims:I think they were right to do it. Once again, Rogue loses. It's such a funny like Feige public handcuffing where they like make this big announcement of here's the cast of Thunderbolts three years ago and they show the image and they bring them all out on stage and at some point they change the plot and they're like maybe we need to drop one person and they're like, fuck, we're still contractually obligated to give her fourth billing and one million dollars. And we have to put her all over the marketing to trick people into thinking she's a proper team member. But the most half-hearted effort, effort.

1:12:42David Sims:I took the fourth

1:12:43Griffin Newman:billing as an apology, as a sort of like, you know, song. That's what happens in Hollywood land, Griff.

1:12:49David Sims:This is true.

1:12:49Griffin Newman:But also sometimes there's Marvel

1:12:51David Sims:shit. You'll get fourth billing. Like fucking Michael Stolberg getting like fourth billing in Multiverse of Madness. That's great, man. Sometimes there's contractual. He's like, hey, what's up? If you do a sequel, you move up in the billing. And even if we end up giving you a tiny part, we can't knock you down. Yeah, that's kind of like, yeah, when you go from junior varsity to varsity and if you've still stuck around.

1:13:11Griffin Newman:What were you varsity? Volleyball. Did you let her? Yes. I found my varsity jacket over the weekend. Show. We don't need. Where'd you play? What do you mean? Front. Back. Little. I was libero. What's that? That is like a defensive specialist, but not the DS, which is the defensive specialist.

1:13:32David Sims:You know my wife was a center. I'm the one who wears a different jersey color. Your wife was a center? A setter. Oh. Oh. I mean, great role. That's what most captains are. Right. I thought you were saying a center in basketball. You know what I like to do? She's got the hype. Smash. She's got the reach. You like to smash your Hulk.

1:13:53David Sims:David. Yeah. If I'm being honest. What? and I'm the most radically honest person in America. It's time for radical honesty. Okay, honesty is on the table. Sometimes it is 1 p.m. Sure. And all I've had is coffee. Uh-oh. No breakfast, no lunch, just caffeine and whatever movie I'm three rewatches deep on. That's actually... That sounds like you. I can't believe that's in the ad copy. A little tough on the tummy. Lately, I've been keeping Huel around to stop myself from doing exactly that. Huel is sponsoring the podcast. Tell me of Huel. Well, here's what Huel saves me. It saves me time on recording days when we're deep into director's filmography.

1:14:28David Sims:This is customized ad copy. That's why you're right on time to every single episode. Of course, a screening marathon where you forget to eat.

1:14:35Griffin Newman:No, totally. I think this is an actually relatable condition of like, oh no, I haven't eaten enough today. I've had a slow morning. Right, I've got something. I've got a busy afternoon.

1:14:46David Sims:Huel has the Black Edition ready to drink. It is a bottle that is just a meal. inside that bottle. I got chocolate peanut butter. It tastes good. It just tastes like a nice little milkshake.

1:14:59Griffin Newman:Whoa, it's got 35 grams of protein, seven grams of fiber, 27 essential vitamins, and minerals, and minerals. You're actually impressed by that rundown. I thought of protein. That's like an Ocean's Eleven. That's a hefty amount of protein. Style line-up. And then they got the powder, the Black Edition powder, which is the customizable. That's 40 grams of protein, same complete nutrition, mixed with water or milk. No artificial sweeteners, colors or flavors. Yes. It's gluten free. Mm-hmm. My wife is gluten free. Well, that's nice to know. Good for her.

1:15:28David Sims:No, in all honesty, I often try to watch the movie right before the episode because my brain cannot retain anything. And then I rush over here and I'm like, all I've had is four cups of coffee and zero food. And it's nice to just shake a hule, down it, and just feel vaguely like a normal person. It's under$5 a meal for the RTV.

1:15:48Griffin Newman:Mm-hmm. You know, ready to drink. Of course.

1:15:51David Sims:There's also, you know, there's a powder for when you're home and you want to control the texture, whether you want to just shake that up with water or mix it into something else. Right. But the RTD, you can just grab one of those bad boys when you're sprinting out the door to a record on time.

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1:16:32David Sims:If you're the kind of person who forgets to eat until you're staring down a six movie day, this is the fix. And a six movie day, that is impressive. And our hats are off to you. Very good.

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1:17:13Griffin Newman:See homedepot.com slash price match for details. Hail Caesar is about Eddie Mannix. Sort of about it. It's set in the early 50s in Hollywood. It's about a character named Eddie Mannix. Right. Who is the Cohen said like the real Eddie Mannix was like a thug who beat people up and threatened people. Right. We didn't really want that vibe. Right. Exactly.

1:17:33David Sims:But they do a lot of this like Papio Daniel being 90 percent of the name of a real guy. Sometimes they'll like base a character on a person and then be like, we're still going to name it after them, even though we've made it not actually one to one anymore.

1:17:45Griffin Newman:He works at Capital Pictures, which of course is the same studio from Barton Fink. And he is a fixer, so he deals with scandals and he massages egos and he basically just kind of like handles problems for the studio.

1:17:59David Sims:In an era where, because of studio contracts, studios viewed stars as investments. They were property. They were a thing that they had to like manage and build and maintain. and this weird, it's often, when this is talked about, it's talked about in a very dark way of people like Eddie Mannix who'd like maybe murder people, you know, and do these things by like force and like covering up the seedy side. But the magic of this movie is this quiet Eddie Mannix arc is he is being courted by Lockheed Martin, a normal company that's never done anything wrong for a stable job. At the dawn of the space age.

1:18:33David Sims:With better hours and the promise that you would get stock options. So even if you quit in a couple of years, you'd be set for life and do you want a more normal life? They're also telling him that they're working on something really big, which happens to be the hydrogen bomb. Kind of a scary thing, but they're sort of like, aren't you done doing frivolous like fucking singing cowboy pictures? It's just the most serious thing you could imagine. Babysitting divas. Yeah. Right. We do serious things like bombs. And the magic of this movie is this very quiet arc that Josh Brolin plays basically through looks and in between words because it is classic Josh Brolin stoicism with something kind of softer going on inside where this guy is slowly kind of realizing why he cares about this shit, that he is, at the end of the day, kind of dirty show folk do his score, even though he is the type A normal businessman version of that.

1:19:25David Sims:The reason he's here is because he loves this shit and he loves these people for as much as they drive him crazy. He would be doing something creative if he could, but he's doing this because it's the most creative adjacent thing he can do with his weird powers of like alpha dog, you know, negotiation. But yeah, it's like he ends up, what, the movie's set over like 24 hours?

1:19:49Griffin Newman:Yeah. Yeah, starts at night, ends the next night. I guess it's 48, 46. I don't know, whatever.

1:19:55David Sims:A short time frame, but just a kind of whirlwind of problems that he's trying to fix while also being courted for this job. Right. So here are the problems. So we're going to try and run down the problems. We're going to do this.

1:20:06Griffin Newman:Yeah. George Clooney plays Baird Whitlock, who's this sort of like aging movie star with a hint of lavender to him, as they used to say. Yeah. Like the joke being that, like Robert Taylor is the example they're drafting off of, like guys where people would be like, he's secretly gay and maybe like slept his way to stardom. Totally scurrilous. Like no actual evidence for this, but it would become a thing in the 50s. Yes. Because that's what on wings of eagles. On wings of? On wings and eagles?

1:20:40David Sims:Like that's what they're referencing. One of the best sound effects jokes. Yes. Yes. But I also, I think it could be read as like. On wings as eagles. Yes. It's such a good title. On wings as eagles. There's obviously ambiguity in it. I also think it could be read.

1:20:53Griffin Newman:I'm quoting the Coen's when I say the lavender thing.

1:20:55David Sims:Sure. Yeah. It could be read as this was one strategic like cast and couch decision he made to get his foot in the door versus a closeted sexuality. But there was possible

1:21:05Griffin Newman:hanky-panky in his past.

1:21:06David Sims:Something seemingly happened. Everyone reacts with the intensity of there's a touch of truth to that.

1:21:13Griffin Newman:So he gets kidnapped by a bunch of Marxist writers, communist writers, who wish to sort of rearrange his brain in support of their principles.

1:21:23David Sims:They're deeply radicalized. They've been trying to smuggle communist ideology into the margins of their studio for higher work, but now they've decided they need to do something to change the system because... A great bunch of guys, by the way. And each of them is more exciting to see than the last.

1:21:37Griffin Newman:Melamed, Patrick Fishler, Fisher Stevens, Alex Kurpovsky. I might forget it. There's a couple other guys.

1:21:44David Sims:Yeah, it's an incredible group. Greg Baldwin, who's the big guy. Who's the British? Oh, with the perma-pout? Right, yeah, who wrote all the... Who's the British guy who does most of the talk? Yeah, who is the British?

1:21:54Griffin Newman:That guy rocks. The best guy is the guy who keeps saying, shut up. Yes. Oh, Max Baker. Max Baker. I don't know where they found that guy, but he's so mellifluous.

1:22:03David Sims:But they they basically are trying to radicalize Clooney. They're using him as a hostage to get the cash they want, but also as a bargaining chip to try to change the system because they think if they can win him over while he's being held ransom, that he will be at the forefront of their argument, which is basically them trying to create some system of profit sharing. It is basically them arguing for like residuals. Right.

1:22:29Griffin Newman:They don't actually have like insanely. They're pretty silly. They're fun and silly.

1:22:35David Sims:They do want to hand a fucking briefcase of cash over to Dolph Lundgren on a Russian submarine.

1:22:40Griffin Newman:But like they don't understand what they're doing with that.

1:22:43David Sims:No. And ultimately. They're a study group. Ultimately, this is like what I love about it is like for how much they're espousing serious political opinion. The actual means to an end for them is they would like it if they had nice houses, too. that here they are meeting at Channing Tatum's house, which is like the most beautiful Hollywood home you've ever seen. And all these guys are like, I get paid$200 a week to write scripts. And if one's a hit, I don't get any upside from it. You know? It is the thing that allowed the destruction of the studio system is it gave actors the ability to build a career without career stability of a guaranteed contract, because if you hit, you'd hit big.

1:23:24David Sims:and it could cover the times where you weren't working.

1:23:27Griffin Newman:The next most important character, I feel like, is Alden Ehrenreich, is Hobie Doyle, who is in four movies at once, essentially. He's like going for a movie. He's like shooting a Western, a cowboy musical, or... The cowboy musical's wrapped. He's going to premiere. That's done. He's shooting two movies at once. Okay, so he's shooting, right, the Western and the society comedy at the same time.

1:23:49David Sims:The big pivot point is, here's a guy who's a B-star. He makes programmers in a sort of like He's a ginautry, whatever Chineless genre, right? And they're going like, does this kid have the X factor? Could we like develop him into something more? He gets slotted into an A movie And all the pressure is on is like, this is the test

1:24:10Griffin Newman:Which he's not doing very well at And of course he's being directed by Lawrence Lawrence Yes Played by Ralph Fiennes

1:24:16David Sims:Which turns out to be the person that Baird Whitlock allegedly had

1:24:21Griffin Newman:I like just how tightly There are a lot of hints and references exactly right to how things crossed over in the past or yes

1:24:29David Sims:And it's almost structured like a mystery novel It's a who done who Well well well There's a touch That's a bit saucy You know all these like kind of gumshoe books that they love and like hardball noir and whatever where like the answers kind of happen in the margins You don't have a scene where Humphrey Brogard explains everything he figured out about the Maltese Falcon. The footnotes are available to you if you want to look for them. Yes. Yes. But it happens, and part of it's the fast-talking, constantly-moving Hollywood thing that stuff's just getting thrown out as collateral. Right.

1:25:09Griffin Newman:I don't know exactly who Lawrence Lawrence... Because people bring up Vincente Minelli or Cucor or whatever, but those guys were American. But it's like, yeah, those sort of like... Lubitsch sort of makes sense. I think it's one of these touch of class. You know, guy from Europe who's more urbane and literate and all that.

1:25:28David Sims:I don't think any of these directors are one-to-one with anyone. Who says things like mirthless chuckle. Mirthless chuckle. We can use Christian names, boy. This is a movie where you could have given it all five Best Supporting Actor nominations.

1:25:39Griffin Newman:I think we talked about that that year at the Blankies, 100%.

1:25:42David Sims:Yes.

1:25:43Griffin Newman:So you got Scarlett Johansson as Deanna Moran, who's a...

1:25:47David Sims:Elegant Esther Williams bathing beauty, who actually is like a heart-boiled... like, hey, fuck you. Brooklyn Tuck Tuck. That's her favorite accent to do, right?

1:25:55Griffin Newman:She's pretty good at it. And she has been knocked up by somebody. She thinks she knows the guy.

1:26:01David Sims:We believe it is the director played by Christopher Lambert. Right. Which I feel like is also this model of like these like kind of severe, brutish, alpha European men who would become like dictator directors of the studio system. The movie is so good at capturing the different types of like, who were career directors at this point in time? And like, you have your kind of like corsage, like champagne. I can't say this word. Aesthetic? Aesthetic. No, but esthet. Yes. Esthete. Esthete. But also a guy who's like, my name means something. I reputation present versus like these guys who are like, I show up, I yell at five people to get it done.

1:26:42And I show you a picture of me skiing. Yeah. Because I am macho. Right. Yes.

1:26:46Griffin Newman:Then those are the three main storylines. And you have smaller characters like Frances McDormand as an editor who's sort of like a Margaret Booth, like lots of famous lady editors. Jonah Hill. Tilda Swinton as twin, identical twin gossip columnists. And sort of like the Hedda Hopper, Luella Parsons.

1:27:04David Sims:Just like, what kind of name is Thessaly? The deep bucket of just simple pleasures in this movie, every time either of her characters says Eddie. She's really. I'm just, I transcend to a higher plane of existence.

1:27:17Griffin Newman:Channing Tatum who really just has the one big scene Alison Pill who is Eddie's wife Wayne Knight of course is the wonderful operative kidnap's parent the sneaky extry

1:27:28David Sims:you can never totally trust an extry you see him and you think sus and I love that he says now mind you some of them are good Jonah Hill don't want to paint with a broad brush

1:27:38Griffin Newman:who maybe we want to talk about now as a sort of professional person is the thing they say which is so funny I love professional person yes technically a sort of he's like a bondsman or whatever i still feel like an amateur person what about you guys same but it's also than ever honestly it's also semi-pro it's part of the weird

1:27:56David Sims:machinery of this of like the relationship that the studios have with the gossip columnists right where like sometimes they are basically working them to carry water for them to help sell a fictional narrative and sometimes they are working overtime to try to squash a potential narrative that they would actually want to crack journalistically. And so all of this machinery of maintaining the images and the reputations of these stars. And yes, Jonah Hill is this guy who's like a bail bondsman, but also his real utility is they will pay him money to basically slide the crimes or misdiscretions, indiscretions, misdeeds of any major star onto him.

1:28:37David Sims:And he will take the rap or pay the fee or do the time or whatever it is. The fall guy. And is paid handsomely to be the fall guy so that none of these stories ever stick to these people. Jonah Hill is on screen for 90 seconds. He has one scene. Right. They use every line of dialogue he has in the trailer. They put him all over the fucking trailer.

1:28:58Griffin Newman:Because he was hot stuff at the time, you know, 21 Jump Street era Jonah Hill.

1:29:02David Sims:But I have often contested that this is the smallest role to receive a designated character poster. As David turned his laptop around maybe one hour ago. It's low there. It's down low. It's the funniest character poster. Just big Jonah Hill head with owl glasses. Well, it also says Hill. It says Hill. It's humongous. Yes. And then Hail Caesar is smaller. So you are like, this guy is the star.

1:29:26Griffin Newman:Right. If that was the only poster you had seen for this movie. The joke, of course, is that he's, the scheme they work out is that Deanna will have the baby, give him the baby legally. and then she will adopt the baby almost immediately and act like she's doing it out of the goodness of her heart because she's the mother of the baby. Right, because the father of the child

1:29:46David Sims:is the director of No Damned who has a wife and children back in his home country. Not acceptable. So they can't break that up.

1:29:53Griffin Newman:But anyway, she ends up falling in love with Jonah Hill and they get married anyway. Which is very sweet and is something that basically happens off-screen and off-hand comic. They went on one date and then went immediately to Palm Springs and then got married the next day. She just immediately locks in on this guy

1:30:06David Sims:But in a scene that's so funny where he's giving, like, anti-charisma very well. But he's reassuring. Yes. And he's a, dare I say, he's a serious man. I think she respects that this guy's got, like, a focus.

1:30:19Griffin Newman:I think this film is such a fascinating counterpart to Barton Fink, which is, like, about a person who is outside of this bubble, thinks he's better than it. Yes. And will not, like, lower himself to the trash, you know, it represents or whatever, and never, like, gets anywhere, essentially, and is trapped in hell. and this is like inside the bubble all that he's doing is dealing with problems right? It's like this big complex clockwork machinery and he's just sort of walking around like fixing shit. And problems that are like dark and silly. Banging on stuff. Yes, often kind of nasty and he has to just sort of be like pragmatic about everything.

1:30:51But I think it's important to point out that it's not always so in the bubble that it's like navel gazey and insular about itself. No, no, no. It's literally like

1:30:58Griffin Newman:he has to just like he's like a mafia preschool teacher. You have, I mean you have the Jonah Hill character, but I think he exists in a different, like, there's a Venn diagram here, but the twin journalists, like, one of the problems one of them has is that she considers herself an actual entertainment reporter, trade reporter versus a gossip columnist, right? And that feels like a little bit of, like, it's both very inside baseball, but it's also the real world bleeding in with the judgment of the work that they do.

1:31:29David Sims:Right, and people keep getting them confused. Yeah, and I think, yeah, exactly. Saying the wrong thing to the wrong person or repeating it twice with an attitude. Yeah. And I think without that piece, you get a film that's way too insular. I agree. But because of this, because of this, it's delightful. I also think this movie has such a love of film history and a sort of recognition of like, not like things used to be better. It's weirdly, this movie is simultaneously more cynical and more romantic than Barton Fink, which is the fascinating juxtaposition.

1:31:57Griffin Newman:It is largely cynical, but then at the end of the day, it is about the system working. Yes. And then the one guy, the one real problem that Eddie actually has to solve, most of the problems sort themselves out. Right. Is Baird returning and being like, I'm a communist now. Like, we must, and him just being like, no, golden age of Hollywood works. You know, like, you are not allowed to defy this system.

1:32:21David Sims:But also in 20 years, it will be dead. 100%. But can't fight the future. And the future is on the phone.

1:32:25Griffin Newman:Eddie is just like, you will do what you do. You're a member of this machine just like me. And Baird's like, okay. And he does it. And George gives the big speech at the end. And it's like, great. That's exactly how this works.

1:32:40David Sims:And you're watching Clooney magic of like, oh, right. George Clooney is George Clooney. We've had so much fun watching him play like a fucking idiot behind the eight ball trying to figure it out. Clooney so well playing. the awkwardness of trying to be in casual positions wearing that costume. He does so much good business with readjusting these chest plates and shouldn't be in a lounge chair. I think all of those physical bits are funny

1:33:06Griffin Newman:with a sword and all that. But then we get to this final moment

1:33:09David Sims:where you see him deliver the big monologue and Clooney, like a fucking movie star, holds the camera and turns it on and nails it. And you're like, right, Baird Whitlock might be a moron to a degree, but also there's a reason he's their top star and here's the magic and then he loses it and the take is blown and everyone's like yeah that's what the movies are. We'll just try it again. You feel like you're witnessing a miracle and then the miracle falls apart. But he understands the words be a star. Yeah. Like anyway.

1:33:36Griffin Newman:You think. David go. The Coens are steeped enough in movie history to know that there is something so hilarious about you watch some old movie that's great. some, you know, classic movie. And you're like, oh, God, this is great. And then you read the behind-the-scenes thing and it's basically like, yeah, everyone was on fucking speed or gay or a communist or insane or shooting each other. Sleeping with each other.

1:34:04David Sims:The whole thing was created through, like, blackmail and coercion and madness. 20 people got murdered in the making of this film.

1:34:10Griffin Newman:And you're like, wait, just to create this sort of, like, delightful confection that I watched today, you know, on TCM? To help you escape, they had to go through hell. It's like the movie Babylon, which is loud and obnoxious. A movie I like a lot in many ways, but it's like sort of the loudest version of like, don't you realize how insane Hollywood was? This is a much more whimsical tone.

1:34:33David Sims:I love Babylon, but I think this movie gets at a lot of the same ideas a lot better. Without having an elephant defecate on camera. Yeah, and I believe half the time. I can't remember how long Babylon was, but it's long. A couple of days at least. No, yes, you're right. And it's like the movie is making three hours and nine minutes. Good. Those nine minutes were necessary.

1:34:53Griffin Newman:The people at Paramus eating razor blades.

1:34:56David Sims:The test. Remember that two of those minutes were Avatar. That's so true. So who's laughing now? T2 was in there too. Yeah. I think that this is a really good, like everything has always been great. Everything's always been terrible movie. These two things like exist in tandem, But also the sort of like Sullivan's Travels thing, which it makes sort of unspoken, but is like Eddie Mannix is like, I'm like losing sleep and barely seeing my kids and I'm so stressed out and I'm eating this fucking microwave plate of loose meat, you know, as I like try to unwind before I go back to the office for another night shift of dealing with nonsense.

1:35:36David Sims:Right. Why am I doing this? And it isn't serious work. Like, in the name of what? And the opposite is Lockheed Martin will give you, like, shiny tchotchkes and a nice office. And everyone there will behave like a proper adult gentleman and you'll bomb people.

1:35:49Griffin Newman:But the gag is that Lockheed Martin, right, he's like, we like what you do. We think it would be perfect for creating death that rains hellfire across the earth.

1:35:58David Sims:And is Eddie not at the Lazy Old Moon premiere? No. But I feel like in that scene, you get the Sullivan's travels moment. Eddie images please not the real Eddie Mannix yeah be careful stop threatening me how much people are laughing at this old coot falling into like a fucking water trough right and you're like this is why you do it like this might be the silliest movie ever made well I mean I want to go back to what you were saying about when he's with Francis and they're editing that reel and he has that look on his face that look doesn't say like i have so much power i could make this happen that look instead is like awe and tenderness toward this strip of yes five seconds of a scene but you're right he's not patting himself on the back for like i always knew it and he's also not doing this kind of maudlin tears in his eyes like i i love moneyball but there's the moneyball moment where jonah hill shows brad pitt normal marriage the uh the clip of the guy who doesn't know that he's hit a home run yes and and and And it has this incredible moment.

1:37:04David Sims:Right. And it's like there's a version of this that is entirely unspoken because Eddie Minnix is a guy who would never let himself say anything like that. But I also think it's the it's it's it's very Cohen's. Like, like, they never push it that far in this. Like, it's like it's or ever.

1:37:19Griffin Newman:Yeah. I mean, here's the thing, right? Like, we're talking about the juxtapositions and everything working in tandem. And I think it's because there's they clearly now we're we're many years removed from this from this and they have their own projects. Yes. They have their own visions. and I think because their visions have competed I don't know without us really knowing it in these films that's why there's this push and pull and a balance to what we're seeing. I think so too. Now can I talk about my favorite scene in the movie? I used to do a feature at the Atlantic where I summed up my 10 favorite scenes of the year.

1:37:47Griffin Newman:Bring it back. It's a good feature. It's a lot of work. It's an comma scene. What else do you have to do with your time? No the problem is that it would always come at the end of the year which is like an incredibly busy time for my editors where they're doing all these other top ten shit. But anyway, I would love to bring it back. But my favorite scene in Hail Caesar is the scene where he talks to the religious leaders about the divine presence that they have yet to shoot in the movie. And it is the incredible Robert Picardo. Picardo's so good.

1:38:17David Sims:Just fucking raining trees.

1:38:19Griffin Newman:What, does he have a dog?

1:38:20David Sims:There's a rabbi who's willing to play. I haven't an opinion. the correct

1:38:29Griffin Newman:assumption of course that they would get a Protestant clergyman played by the great Alan Harvey an actor I love a stand up you know very funny guy great on Mad Men incredible on Mad Men

1:38:40David Sims:is that guy that

1:38:41Griffin Newman:fucking hated Don Draper so god damn much

1:38:43David Sims:the fucking grumpy boss who secretly all he wants to do is draw a fucking comic the duck that's just like that's the shit that makes Mad Men the best TV show of all time is you're like this guy is killing it as like grumpy boss who doesn't like their unconventional ways. And you're like, I would have no notes about this and I would happily take this all day. And then the shameful secret of this guy is he spends all his extra time trying a little fucking three-panel strip about a silly duck that isn't good.

1:39:15Griffin Newman:Wait, what is the name? I'm trying to remember the name of the comic book that he draws. But anyway, sorry, I'll find it later. and right they're not getting an imam in here it's like a Catholic priest Greek Orthodox priest and a rabbi

1:39:34David Sims:who's closest it's like checkbox one of each in the surrounding 10 mile area and it's this perfect parody

1:39:41Griffin Newman:I feel like I don't even know if the Coens were going for this but of movie making especially right at that time like right pre-Trump I would argue it kind of presages it yes exactly we need to calibrate our message so it appeals to everyone without offending anyone, but it's still going to be about a sensitive topic. Can you help us, please?

1:40:00David Sims:This movie comes out six months before Ghostbusters answered the call. Like, I just think that's interesting that what you're saying is, like, this is, they were, like, meeting the moment of something circular coming around again that tends to happen in 20-year rotations of the entertainment industry being, like, we have to be important in everything we do, and it's always this kind of hollow diagrammed Yes. And yet in the work in progress frame, it says divine presence to be shot. So good. I mean, and because the scene itself feels like the setup to a joke, right? Right. Like a rabbi and a Protestant padre of some sort.

1:40:36Yes. And what was the other one?

1:40:38David Sims:They're basically walking to a bar. What I like about it is he's framing it as like my esteemed man. Right. Hey, I just want to check with you. I want your blessing and your insight. Yes. But they're squabbling so much that he eventually gets down to the brass tacks of just like, I just need to know that we're not accidentally doing anything offensive. He's acting like he's bringing them in as like esteemed consultants. And really, he's just like, are you guys going to complain about any of this shit when the movie comes out? But it's also why this movie holds up where it's just kind of like he brought them in.

1:41:07And now it's like, well, that's enough.

1:41:09David Sims:Yes. We did that. Right. They came in. Right. Right. We can say in the marketing, which is part of the machinery, Jeffrey Cantor, I just want to call out, plays Sid Siegelstein, who is the lawyer at Capital Pictures who sort of facilitates the deal with Jonah Hill and Scarlett Johansson an actor I worked with on Patrick Willems' short film which will maybe be out by the time of this release The Dinner Plan he is so fucking goodness he's like it's never been done before about the adoption or like you know yes that guy they're pitching him like what's a way we can get Johansson's baby and he and Manning start to like piece together like is there a way to have her adopt it we'd have to get a foster this and that and he's reacting with the energy of like an artist being hit with inspiration he's like huh that's good i like that and he's not it's not like a um a dark energy it's like all of these people are artists right like manix loves figuring out how to talk to different people right there's what he needs sort of a joy in it or a skill or whatever and this weird lawyer who you just imagine has been covering up some of the darkest, most criminal shit, loves being like, oh, what if we did this?

1:42:24It's a puzzle to solve. Yeah.

1:42:25David Sims:Right. And he underplays it, but it's so fucking good.

1:42:28Griffin Newman:And this is all in service of making silly movies for us. And so that the silly movies aren't ruined.

1:42:34David Sims:They're not tarnished by the real world.

1:42:36Griffin Newman:Right. Lazy Old Moon is the most serious movie I've ever seen. Oh, that's so true. So. And actually, I've heard that they're remaking it for modern day, but it's woke. well you can't wake up the moon yeah yeah right don't disturb the moon i don't know what this time it's going to be lazy old venus oh yikes chock full of women you know that that that's not a it's a mostly gaseous planet excuse me surely i hate to uh big dog you on this but um i actually I read a scientific textbook many years ago that explained to me that men are from Mars and women are from Venus.

1:43:15David Sims:And that's a fact. And when I say I read the book, I mean I read the cover. That's exciting. I only looked at the pictures. The no-dame sequence is so triumphant as a performance from Tatum, who we've talked about a lot already in this episode. But the moment that I truly like just lose my mind with joy is when they cut out to the wider shot after this like beautiful kind of elegant sweeping long crane movement. And you see that the floor of the set is separated into blocks that roll away that they had to move away in order for the crane to move in closer. and now seamlessly as choreography, not from the performers, but from the crew, they have to roll right back into position as the crane is pulling back so when it goes back to its original angle, the floor is in shape.

1:44:03David Sims:And I'm like, that's fucking magic of the movies. And that's the shit when you watch a movie from the 1940s where you're like, they had to fucking figure this out.

1:44:09Griffin Newman:It is amazing what they figured out for some of this stuff. And they're right. They had this heavy ass cameras that can only do so many things. They didn't have steadicams back then. Yes. Yeah. You know. They're athletes and scientists.

1:44:22David Sims:And you watch this take that feels like perfect, that feels like a fucking miracle where everyone's just nailing everything. And the crane comes down and Christopher Lambert with his fucking dumb director bullhorn goes like, don't put the bar rag on the guy's head. You're too big of a star. You're bigger than that. Right. It gives him a direction that is not like you fucked anything up. It's sort of in the name of his star persona. I think a correct. He says it in a way that offends the bartender actor. Right. But I think what he's really saying is that's you kind of punching down.

1:44:55Griffin Newman:Do you think the Coen brothers talked to Christopher Lambert about how he played Raiden in Mortal Kombat? Absolutely. I hope so. It's the only thing they talked about. Or do you think when he was in the character, she's like, this reminds me of Mortal Kombat. Yeah. Heather Goldenhirsch. Oh, I love her. Heather's assistant. You know what? You know what show she was on, Griff? What? Can you guess? Mad Men? no although was she yeah because she does have the look you're right yeah let's find out if she was on she's such a good fast talker um she never was she was on the show The Class which is a show I think about all the time interesting it ran for one season yeah it was a big CBS show I watched and I forgot that she was on right from the creator of Friends and the the gimmick was that it was eight 28 year olds who had been in the same third grade class 20 years ago and they somehow reunion and then they become um, but then they become a regular friend group.

1:45:50David Sims:Jason Ritter, Lizzie Kaplan, Jesse Tyler, Tyler Ferguson, John Bernthal.

1:45:54Griffin Newman:This is why I wanted to bring it up. It had an insanely stacked cast of guys who are about to happen. Andrea Anders, Lucy Punch. Right. A couple of the guys, Andrea Anders had already done Joey and was kind of like, you know, in the sitcom mix. Jason Ritter had, you know, he was in the sitcom mix a little bit, but like Lizzie Kaplan, Jesse Tyler Ferguson, and then insanely John Bernthal, who never did anything like this again were all in it. But it was such a weird show because they mostly wouldn't interact. Yes. Like it was mostly like four separate tracks of stories and they would only occasionally cross over.

1:46:27Griffin Newman:It was so weird. But it was also David Crane, Creator Friends. It was the Creator Friends in Philadelphia and it had zero non-white people in the cast and people were like, are you guys crazy?

1:46:38David Sims:But also...

1:46:39Griffin Newman:You can't do this anymore.

1:46:40David Sims:Right. But it had been a winning formula up until that moment.

1:46:44Griffin Newman:It was right around then when people were starting to ask questions.

1:46:46David Sims:Starting to push back on it. But the famous story they tell is that they... Anyway, she was really good in it. Yeah. Right before the first episode aired, Crane and Burroughs took the whole cast to Las Vegas. Have you guys heard the story before? Mm-mm. All expensive page print. I'm just reading about this now. And they were like, guys, we don't want to stress you out, but you just need to understand this is the last time you're ever going to be able to go out in public again as normal people, and especially as a group. We saw what happened to the Friends cast. And I want you guys to have a great weekend.

1:47:17David Sims:Savor this.

1:47:17Griffin Newman:Savor this. And Bernthal was like, for me, this is actually sort of true.

1:47:21David Sims:Yes. And everyone else was like, huh? And then the show just collapsed immediately. But the confidence of this is it. We are holding a hot hand. This is New Friends. So crazy. Anyway, she's great in this too.

1:47:33Griffin Newman:She's great in this. As the assistant to Mannix. Who's constantly filling him in. The thing is, I feel like that story probably happens a whole bunch. Right. We just never hear it. It's like the NBA champion shirts they printed for the other guys who then get shipped to whatever.

1:47:48David Sims:It's just a particularly infamous one. And because most of that cast has then ended up finding success somewhere else, they all retell that story whenever they do press about the false starts of careers.

1:47:58Griffin Newman:Like if James Burroughs was directing a show back then, it was kind of like, okay, this must be the next big comedy.

1:48:03David Sims:There was a 25-year run where he had not directed a single pilot that didn't go to series and last more than one season. It was insane. Yes. Like, it was just a kingmaker.

1:48:13Griffin Newman:Yeah. But anyway, love her in this and liked her fine in the class from what I remember. Don't really remember.

1:48:20David Sims:This is a movie where everyone is great. Wait, is anyone bad, though?

1:48:23Griffin Newman:No.

1:48:24David Sims:No. No. No. And there are people in it where you're like, you're going to hire Dolph Lundgren to stand at the top of a submarine for like a day and basically be art direction. Kind of nails it. That's the thing. He does great. It doesn't feel like an abuse of power on the Coen's part. Clancy Brown showing up for two seconds as Clooney's co-star. Love to see him. Every one of these people who shows up, you're like, well, but could anyone do what they're doing better than them? I mean, Dolph stands so well on that submarine. He's so imposing. I'm like, that guy's a commie. But it's like, it's presence, it's like history, it's reputational casting.

1:48:58David Sims:As we said, like the fucking, like the future is loaded with. Right, all these. Just incredible. That guy's where you're like, Melamed, you're giving him

1:49:05Griffin Newman:two lines of dialogue? Melamed, I feel like, the other thing is like, a lot of them are guys who haven't been in Coen movies, but you're like, how have they never been in a Coen movie? Right, this is the first Krumholtz, and then he does Buster's Griggs after this. And then it's the, I don't think Fishler had done one, and that's another guy who feels, right, like that he had popped up in a Coen before.

1:49:25David Sims:Karpowski had done Llewyn Davis. I was just about to say, Karpowski, but does he have a line in this? He just takes the pictures, right? He just moves around. He just smirks. But I'm like, he's giving so much. Had Picard a little? It's giving so much. I don't know. That's kind of wild. No, yeah. You do have to just think about like True Grip was their biggest hit. That comes only a couple of years after they sweep the Oscars. And then Inside Llewyn Davis is basically immediately greeted as a masterpiece, even though it doesn't become a big Oscar movie. It's like this is maybe their best thing.

1:50:01David Sims:They were just running so hot where like anyone would show up for one day for them. For sure. And we haven't even shouted out the narrator. Michael Gambon. We love to hear him. Yeah. But this movie has a$22 million budget. Like, think about how much fucking value there is. This is a movie with, like, big sets and big costumes and, like, an all-star cast and everything. People just want it to play. Do you think about how Inside Llewyn Davis

1:50:27Griffin Newman:was nominated for any Oscars? I think about it constantly. That is crazy. Or did it maybe get, like, a cinematography? It must have gotten song and cinematography. I think it got song. Sound and cinematography. And no song? No song? No, because remember they submitted They're like, oh Please Mr. Kennedy And they didn't, rather than fairly well

1:50:47David Sims:I guess it was too silly Yeah, no, that's some of the dumbest shit of all time That movie is I'm excited to re-watch it

1:50:56Griffin Newman:We will have done it at this point It's too hot in New York right now So hot To watch that movie Thank God we can push that That movie is so cold It's the heat I would just sort of be like, no, it's never felt like this in New York This is science fiction It's one of the great coat movies. It is. One of the great coat movies. I can't believe I come here and it's so hot. It's so hot. And you guys won't come to L.A. I come gladly and with pleasure.

1:51:21David Sims:I fly to L.A. trippingly. With pleasure. Cruel. We were just having a text conversation about a thing that David won't go to L.A. for. No. It was automatic. It was automatic. We assume you're not doing it.

1:51:35Griffin Newman:But I support it. Yeah. I'll film a video message. Train. You could just drive the whole way. It's a great idea. I would love to do that. I don't like flying at all. I know. That's why I'm saying. And it's, of course, flying getting a bit of a bad rap right now, I will say. Bad rap. A couple of red flags in the old news for airplanes. But it's not children, not the flying guys.

1:51:57David Sims:Children. Children. You say this, but the arguments were not very different pre-children. I took planes pre-children. I did. I did. I took planes. You did. Yes. I did cross-country train trip to California and it was wonderful.

1:52:13Griffin Newman:You enjoyed it, didn't you?

1:52:15David Sims:I had a grand old time.

1:52:15Griffin Newman:Were there any hiccups? And I'm not talking about the star of HIT, a live-action remake, How to Train Your Dragon.

1:52:22David Sims:I didn't realize there wasn't going to be Wi-Fi on the train because you go to areas of the country where there is nothing and they were like, you will not have cell phone signal, let alone Wi-Fi on the train. And so I should have downloaded a bunch of stuff to my iPad before I got on. That was the mistake I made. What did you do instead? Did some reading. Did some thinking. Staring out the window. A lot of time in the, whatever they call it, the, not the viewer car or whatever, but they had the one car that's like all big windows. And you drive through, drive through, the train runs through these areas where you're like, there is no other sign of human life.

1:52:58Untouched beauty. Anywhere.

1:52:59David Sims:You're like, you only get to see this land if you're on this train. Is that the panoramic car or something? I think that's right. You know, if we had the internet, we could look it up. We could. And we don't. We are recording this episode on a cross-country trip. In a bunker, because it is hot outside.

1:53:18Griffin Newman:It is a bit of a bunker that we're in right now. Hail Caesar. What are things we should call out? Well, I'm sorry. Actually, that's time for a union break. I'm going to call it.

1:53:27David Sims:Box lunch or hot lunch? Hot lunch. So good, so good, so good. New summer arrivals are at Nordstrom Rack Stores now. Get ready to save big with up to 60 % off brands like Rag & Bone, Levi's, Adidas, and Free People. Join the Nordic Club to unlock exclusive discounts, shop new arrivals first, and more. Plus, buy online and pick up at your favorite rack store for free. Great brands, great prices. That's why you rack.

1:53:59Griffin Newman:This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome.

1:54:01David Sims:You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome? That's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required, compatibility and availability varies 18+. The kind of shit as students of filmmaking that you know they just love digging into the details of like the lunch strata. The lunch strata. And what terms were used, David.

1:54:36David Sims:Crunching ice directly on mic, almost leaning in to make sure we capture it in full quality. Again, again. But yes, that bit of like you never seen the Jesus actor who they're just like, we found a guy who has the right look from behind and doesn't have to deliver dialogue. Feet-wise. But the movie also never shows us the guy head on. And you just hear this meek voice of a guy who just kind of works as Jesus from most angles. And that fucking just cut in. Well, I mean, for a film that's about faith and art and faith in oneself's work and passion and purpose, like for Jesus to not be a principal is very funny.

1:55:12David Sims:That's the other thing I think this movie captures really well is like the thing that kind of goes away with the death of the studio system is this sort of feeling of like this is just a job. People clock in and clock out, right? Because you have like a contract and you know when one production ends, you're going to be put on the next one. Like, this backlot is your office, right? You're not, like, negotiating to be like, oh, God, I hope I can get this grip job in Bulgaria. I haven't booked anything in 18 months. And this sort of, like, kind of wrote, like, banal routines of these things. And this guy just going up to the fucking guy who's literally, like, mounted on a cross and being like, are you principal or extra?

1:55:54David Sims:And the guy's just like, I actually don't even know. And it's just a matter of which lunch do I give you. Right, exactly. I don't know. It's work a day. It's like it's, yeah. But it's always loving or at least affectionate.

1:56:07Griffin Newman:Yes. And. There's a world where that's almost kind of glib where you're like, come on, guys. Like, what are we glossing over? Like, but it never feels like they're glossing anything over. They're giving you the kind of nasty side. Yeah, absolutely. Without it being hectoring or, you know. Yeah, it's nasty and nostalgic at the same time.

1:56:25David Sims:Just like me. Can I circle back to a couple? Yeah, big time. Can I circle back to a couple more Hobie things? Hobie? Yes. One, I love that Mannix trusts him and tells him what's going on.

1:56:38Griffin Newman:hope yes like it's like uh he's like he's been and hope he goes like this is bad real bad or whatever bad for movie stars everywhere hope he's kind of a tom cruise like he believes in

1:56:49David Sims:protecting movies you know what i mean and his speech about like you should look at the x-trees which is like is this a sort of like classist i'm a star look at the lowest guys on the rung but then he explains that he's just like you know i i i knew i know the gaffers you know like I know the script, girls. Right. You're like, he is someone who, like, has such respect and love for everyone who works on these movies and understands that's like, we're all part of the same thing. I don't have ego. But just simply, the extras aren't here every day. So you just don't know. And some of them I like quite a bit, you know, but some of them you don't know.

1:57:23But yeah, Hobie, like, clocks the briefcase thing.

1:57:26David Sims:And you see this moment where Brolin does the math. and it's like is he just so tired that like this was what he had allotted to be his three minutes of closing his eyes and decompressing and hobie comes in and he's just like fuck it i'm gonna tell you or does he correctly read that like hobie's smarter than people think right he's like considerate he's thoughtful he's observant he might actually have good intel which is rewarded in the fact that hobie's the one who puts it fucking together yeah and rescues baird well ed he reads Hobie so well also because Hobie is like, whatever you need, I can get you.

1:58:00But it's not like, but he's not saying it in this cloying way. Hobie never comes off as someone who wants to climb the ladder.

1:58:09David Sims:No, they talk about that he genuinely wants to help. The other thing I want to bring up, Veronica Osario, UCB alum, is so phenomenal in this. Playing like a Carmen Miranda type, who the studio was trying to, now that they're trying to make Hobie an A-list star, They're trying to set him up with one of their other stars to get more press to present him as a bit of a Lothario. And it is such a sweet little romance in this movie that they go on this arranged date and you can tell they actually connect. She's so cute. They're catching a manufactured thing that is becoming real. And them having the two fucking Swintons stop by the table and they have the lines they've been coached to say.

1:58:48David Sims:And yet they're just sort of like there's an actual energy here that isn't fake. friendly. It's so good. She is so good. It's endearing. She's great. Chemistry is so good. I love the brass tacks of them explaining their fucking routines. How do you balance the fruit on the head? How do you do the lasso shit? You know, like just like this is the grunt work that goes into then making something look really effortless and lassoing her finger is such an innocent move that then they have to like that that when they are confronted by the two Tildas, it's like suddenly they have to be on. But then they're already on Italian origami.

1:59:20David Sims:I think he Spaghetti. They're so good. I believe them more than I believe Shawn Mendes and Camila Cabello. I believe them more than I believe. Give me another manufacturer. Many people who are Shawn Mendes. Who's Shawn Mendes? This is a great question. I've been too afraid to ask for years. You know, and he never got a chair, so I also don't know. Canadian?

1:59:44Griffin Newman:Is Camila Cabello the one who is Cinderella? Oh, yeah. Yes. Amazon's Cinderella. That is. She comes in a little package. That was a tough watch.

1:59:54David Sims:I feel like... That was a tough one. That might be your least favorite movie of all time. I feel like you sometimes identify it. And part of it was also like deep lockdown. Yeah, it wasn't in a great time. Amazon streaming bullshit.

2:00:03Griffin Newman:Right, yeah.

2:00:03David Sims:But that is like maybe the closest I've ever seen to like, is David going to be okay?

2:00:07Griffin Newman:I like Kate Cannon. Like, I liked Blockers. And it was one of those things where I'm like, is this like...

2:00:12David Sims:You love James Corden and supporting roles in movies. I like James Acaster.

2:00:16Griffin Newman:And Ramesh Ranganathan. It's in her good people. Not enough. But it felt like the apotheosis episode of like, we can't just be like, guys, did you know Cinderella is kind of problematic? There has to be more than this. You're right. We cannot do this. We must cease. Because then you know what I watched recently? And I want to say that I love and respect our friend Rachel Zegler and I cannot wait for her to come back on the show. Same. Yes, possibly will have happened recently if not cut the statement out, Ben. But nonetheless, but I watched that Snow White movie. Yes. And he is stinky poo poo.

2:00:51Griffin Newman:It's stinky poo poo. It's no good. I will say this. She acquits herself just about as well as you could in that kind of a situation.

2:00:58David Sims:And Rachel is a fucking movie star in the way that this movie is about, where you're just like, anytime she is doing something on screen is magical and she is so multi-skilled and smart about what she's doing, that anytime it is a close-up of her face, you're like, this is a real movie. And then it cuts out to a wide shot of the eight worst looking characters I have ever seen in my life. I have never been more horrified. Fucking dwarves. Every time these CGI dwarves were on screen, I wanted to eat glass and then spit it into my eyes. Well, let me tell you. Rachel, a star, so talented. You're trying to spit in a star.

2:01:28Not forcing anybody to spit glass.

2:01:30David Sims:I think it's genuinely good in the movie. Yes. Yes. But the dwarves showed up at my screening. The child behind me screamed. Yeah. They came out. They're like, they're shadowy. And then they walk out and they're like, hi-ho, hi-ho, whatever. Or whatever.

2:01:42Griffin Newman:No, it's hi-ho with a bunch of new stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the kid behind me goes, ah!

2:01:48David Sims:I turned to my girlfriend and I said, like 30 seconds into them being introduced, I said, I am physically suffering from having to look at them on screen. And I think this is going to be a big issue for the rest of the movie. Anytime they were on screen, I was like shaking. You would think that they're a small issue, Griffith. They should be a little issue. And in fact, but is another example of what you're saying of like, OK, we want to make a big expensive live action Snow White. obviously Snow White is problematic now so we have to address all the controversies head on and I'm like or maybe you should take the lesson here which is don't make modern Snow White.

2:02:24David Sims:Don't make modern Cinderella. Don't do it. If you're so worried about these movies don't do them. It's also the new songs never mesh well. I never watched the Cinderella. I mean I'm always concerned about David but yes that period of time was no good. No bueno.

2:02:38Griffin Newman:Concerned about me? Of course. We're all worried about you. We're all worried about you all the time.

2:02:42David Sims:Stop being me. Snow White already only had like three songs to begin with in the original movie and then this movie involves a lot of whistling right this movie cuts out one of the three songs because it's woke because it's un-woke and you're like so we're down to two and then eight dog shit new songs it's fun to be

2:02:59Griffin Newman:and the Snow White and you're just like what's this song about and you're like I don't know

2:03:04David Sims:they also they they don't want the dwarves to be dwarves right because they think that's condescending so they're like I'm sorry for my problem. It is them and they look like the cartoon designs and they have the same names, but they're actually some kind of weird magical creature. So they do hi-ho and in the middle of hi-ho, they add three verses being like, we are immortal. We come from a sacred realm. I'm not shitting you. They do hi-ho and they're doing like fucking mining as if it was like Temple of the Rings dwarfs. And then they just start explaining like, we're our own thing.

2:03:39Griffin Newman:We can detect jewels with a special sense.

2:03:42David Sims:That's a Jules glow. We're not exaggerating. It's absurd. And I'm like ripping out my sink cushion. Children are crying. Children are screaming.

2:03:53Griffin Newman:Rachel Zechler's very good in that film. She is. She really does acquit herself. Someone else in the film I thought was no bueno. There was another actress. I believe she sings quite a bit in it. Something was happening in those scenes. Yeah, I'm not sure if I'd call it funny.

2:04:07David Sims:In defense, there was such a warm reception to her singing the song Imagine on Instagram in the year 2020 that who wouldn't then follow that lead and say, I got to quadruple down on this. I mean, I thought that video was so powerful and meaningful and it really turned my pandemic experience around. And right now, I really would love to lead us in a rendition of it. Yes, let's do it. Okay. And guys, just to pay proper tribute to the original video, let's make sure that none of us are in the same team. that when we hand off one line to another. I vote not going outside where it's hot.

2:04:40Griffin Newman:And if you want to jam some sort of sand into your iPhone microphone, you know, really make it hard for it to pick up the noise. If you want to hold it up to your nostrils.

2:04:48David Sims:Some people are doing it amidst whipping winds. Some people have dogs barking in the background. Oh, I'm also a part of the cast of Wonder Woman 1984.

2:04:57Griffin Newman:Yes. They should make Wonder Woman 1985. What if they did that? They were like, now we're slowing it down. Like it's not present. Or 83. Except it's not about 1985. It's about the Bowling for Soup song.

2:05:07David Sims:Yes. Please elaborate. No. Okay. Other Hopi stuff I want to say. Yes. In that date scene, she goes to, how did you end up in this position? And he says this kind of story. That's this thing that used to happen. It doesn't really happen anymore. But Chang Tatum is sort of one of these guys where he's like, I was a rodeo guy proper. Then I got side work as a wrangler. Then at some point they just go like, can we throw you a line? then they realized I could speak. I think he became a stunt person. Then they threw him a line. Like this slow evolution. And then they heard I could sing and then they decided I got to be the guy.

2:05:44David Sims:You know? The line of and then I get to be the guy. Right. Is just, it's, I don't know. Channing is such a good comp. I haven't thought about it that way. He's a good. It's why I think his casting is so good.

2:05:56Griffin Newman:Alden himself, I suppose, a little bit. I mean, he's a little bit more of the like, right, we found this gem on a bar mitzvah.

2:06:03David Sims:That's the difference. Like, where do we place him? Whereas Channing, like, we all got to see him build. Yeah, we can sculpt this guy. At this point, weapons has come out, and I hope he's really good. Very, very excited to see him in it. Yeah. And of course, he's in Ironheart. Of course. Yeah.

2:06:18Griffin Newman:The world's most on-time series.

2:06:21David Sims:The most, right.

2:06:22Griffin Newman:He's released exactly when it was originally planned to be released. You know who he's playing in it, right? He's, no, who's he playing? He's playing Ezekiel Stane. He's playing Jeff Bridges' son. That's so weird. and Anthony Ramos is the Red Hood oh boy

2:06:34David Sims:they're playing

2:06:35Griffin Newman:oh boy

2:06:36David Sims:80th tier characters right and assigning like wildly overqualified actors to play them well that is exactly what we wanted

2:06:43Griffin Newman:but like I occasionally will I'll send any tweet I see about Ironheart to my brother because we're like obsessed with Ironheart not the Red Hood the hood the Red Hood's a fucking DC character I'm a fucking idiot get it right and uh uh like there was some tweet that was like Ironheart will not use magic until later in the series and I was like what what She's using magic? Is that? Like the dwarves. Like, when did that get it? I thought she had a fucking suit.

2:07:07David Sims:By the time this episode comes out, it will have been a long, subtle thing, but isn't the rumor that Sacha Baron Cohen plays Mephisto in the series?

2:07:14Griffin Newman:Are you kidding me?

2:07:14David Sims:I believe the show gets into the satanic arts, which is then you realize that he was pulling the strings on the hood. I think that's where this is going. Oh, my God. Or perhaps that was five versions ago. Right.

2:07:27Griffin Newman:No, I think you're, certainly that's rumored. Right. Anyway Hail Caesar Anything else you want to say About beautiful Hobie Doyle We must just call out

2:07:36David Sims:Would that it twerves so simple Which is For my money One of the funniest scenes In the history Would that it twerves so simple I know that I like to make Hyperbolic statements as such But this thing Hits so fucking hard Every single time

2:07:48Griffin Newman:It's kind of like Oh brother thing of like Doing the You know Damn we're in a tight spot Four times Of like It's like It takes It goes on for so long That you're like this can't be funny anymore and then of course it gets funny again.

2:08:01David Sims:But also it's such a slow burn of just like him arriving on set, Lorenz immediately clocking like this isn't my kind of guy, right? I love the character detail. It's the kind of thing that finds place so well but like he is such a fucking pretentious snob that he's actually doing a bad job as a director in the process because it's like dude stop using the fucking$40 words. It's clearly not getting through to him and it's not helping your movie.

2:08:30Griffin Newman:I like the little jokes that get built in such as when he switches from Mr. Lorenz to Lawrence and Hobie's like, wait a second, I thought and he's like, no, we can use our Christian names. Things like that. Have you seen this before? I love the sub jokes. No, I had never seen it.

2:08:44David Sims:I want your overall opinions, but this scene in particular.

2:08:47Griffin Newman:The physical comedy of it is something that I've really dug in on. I think he just plays the physicality and just like conveying how out of depth he is.

2:09:00David Sims:And just by a little bit, right? But it's just subtly off enough, even in the steps and the handling of the door and everything. I love when they pull out

2:09:09Griffin Newman:and all you can hear is his shoes squeaking, echoing in the room. Here comes Hobie. Who's playing the female?

2:09:17David Sims:It's Emily Beecham. Right, right.

2:09:18Griffin Newman:Very funny.

2:09:19David Sims:They did a really good, and you have Agnes Dean in here as well, and Jack Houston. Some of the fake movie stars they cast that you only get to see in snippets are correctly identified. These people have old-fashioned faces. Yeah. These are like old-school movie beauties with like old-school kind of like, they hold themselves in a certain way. And they make the most of their two lines. Yeah. Whatever it is. I adore that she kind of like, what does she say? She says, Allegra can't make it or something. I can't remember the exact line. Yes. But the more frustrated she gets with Hobie, like you can see it little by little.

2:09:54And Hobie's clocking it and getting more flustered.

2:09:57David Sims:There's the moment where she has to react to him. And you see, I think they do a close-up on her as he delivers his first line. And you see it in her eyes of like, this whole movie is going down the drain. And she can't totally blow it because she's got to stay in the scene. But she looks like they pulled her out of a time machine. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. They also costumed her as such, right? Like the costuming in this. And they lit her. We haven't talked about the costuming in this. It's also, it's so perfect. But this movie has like...

2:10:21Griffin Newman:We are in 1951. God, even the hair. Rudely not costumes. They really capture that era.

2:10:27David Sims:But like perfect beauty lighting in a way we don't get anymore. We haven't shouted out good luck bar, rest in peace, good luck bar in Los Feliz. Oh, tell us about that.

2:10:35Griffin Newman:I don't know what you're talking about. This is some L.A. nonsense. This is not L.A. nonsense. This is L.A. lore. The place that keeps going for the meeting with the Lockheed Martin guy. Right. It's like the Chinese restaurant. Old-fashioned Chinese restaurant. Great old-fashioned Chinese restaurant. Great bar. Went on a date there once. Great vibes. Hey, how'd the date go? All right. Okay. Whatever. I've been to that restaurant as well. It's awesome. There you go. Yeah. I've never been there. Great food. But I feel like the locations they chose, not only is like, I don't know, like you could see it as an equivalent of like the Formosa Cafe, right?

2:11:05Where it's kind of like people went there all the time back in the golden age of Hollywood. And it's like the places they went were also just as much like facades as the studio, you know? And so this is their entire world. And it is like them attempting to leave the studio. but at the same time they're still in this like set surely very well formosa is where la confidential

2:11:26Griffin Newman:where um yes where he's like you know you look like don't just because you're a whore look cut to look like blah just like no it is her i love that all of these locations are like scattered around la right like it's not not not just this i mean like formosa's near where i live los filas had good luck bar right there's like in koreatown there's a bar called the prince which was used in Chinatown. It was also the bar in New Girl. This is gay.

2:11:51David Sims:I love it.

2:11:52Griffin Newman:I know the Prince because I think our friend Allison Herman had one of her wedding events there. Oh, Pee Wee Sister? Yes, exactly. Have you ever thought that Los Angeles, another term for it could be the City of Angels? Oh, man. Because it's like Los Angeles.

2:12:08David Sims:You know? Do you remember that time that I won the Oscar for Best Actress and it hit me in that moment? It's true what they say about this city. It's full of angels. There you go.

2:12:20Griffin Newman:I'm sorry, guys.

2:12:20David Sims:I just got to say, can we stick to the script, please? That really was just like so much. Can you give me any direction, anything you want differently this time? Try doing what you're doing, but better. Okay. Is this true what they say about this city? Jet field doesn't melt steel beams.

2:12:40Griffin Newman:She did say that. She did say that. We never went to the moon. Fake. too lazy to go to the old moon you know what my favorite LA bar is it all comes together it's a little place called Chicken on a Stick a little jazz bar could have just called it Sticken that's where jazz was created that's where jazz was created by this really shiny white guy the Copacabana style club how shiny

2:13:07David Sims:the Copacabana style club where Hobie and Veronica Carcero's character Carlotta go on the arranged date right? There is that feeling of like, oh, this is living the big Hollywood life. Which, A, things were so much cooler when fucking movie stars weren't going to the Viper Club or wherever the fuck they're going now. It's the Viper Room. Okay. And it was like, man. I don't think they go there anymore. Hard days. Hard day of work. You gotta go out and party. You sit at a fucking white tablecloth place or some big band place. This most brightly lit room in the world and everyone has to dress nice.

2:13:42David Sims:And then just point at each other. But like, yes, Channing Tatum is also there with the suitcase. Like, the two gossip commis are there. Like, this is like their nightlife, and yet this is all part of the machinery. This is basically a nighttime version of the studio commissary. Yeah. Yeah, it's so controlled, but it's supposed to not feel controlled.

2:14:00Griffin Newman:Can I shout out another guy in this movie? One of the actors in the Roman movie, Senator Systemus, yes, is played by a guy called Clement von Frankenstein. Quite a good name. Oh, say it again. Clement von Frankenstein Faster Clement von Frankenstein Slower Clement von Frankenstein Yeah Isn't that a cool name? He's a member of the Frankenstein family Yeah I would go by Frankenstein Well, Frankenstein's What if my name was like David Dracula And I'm like, oh, it's Dracula, actually That's what I'm saying Right Just go with it, man He died in 2019 He did And he's interred in the Hollywood Forever Cemetery.

2:14:46Also in L.A.

2:14:48David Sims:Did we know that Heather Goldenhurst is married to Brian F. O 'Byrne?

2:14:50Griffin Newman:No, that's wonderful. That's a cool fucking couple. Couple great character actor legends there. Yeah. I mean, Brian F. O 'Byrne, great theater actor. Yeah. I love this movie. He has a little accent over the eye. Everyone knows this? Brian F.

2:15:03David Sims:O 'Byrne. Anyway, everyone knows great names. This is just a movie I find so relaxing for how much it is like a movie that really spins my brain and gets me thinking off about a bunch of different things. Right. Your brain is thinking off? My brain is thinking off. But the aesthetic pleasures of this movie, the like tuning of every single performance and that it does ultimately like reassert why I am so obsessed and build my life around these stupid things that are so hard to make and involve like so much pain and suffering and also involve like the worst people in the world ruining other people's lives.

2:15:41David Sims:It just makes me feel very romantic. I love the name The Future. It's so dumb.

2:15:47Griffin Newman:It's so extremely dumb. We are the future. I like that their ransom note is also just like somebody, you know, got on a typewriter, wrote four lines. Cute little note. None of this cutting things out of magazines.

2:16:03David Sims:Also that they're literally their plan is to hand a big briefcase of money to a submarine captain so that he like remembers them fondly.

2:16:11Griffin Newman:He'll just take it to the Soviet Union and be like, here's a, you know, demonstrably small amount of money. compliments of the future right it doesn't feel like they want to go to russia i think they're

2:16:20David Sims:more like in case they take over they'll like look kindly upon us or whatever i'm amused okay that sequence does feel like like it's everything about it is hilarious to me it's also like like they all they all have the same raincoats it feels like a fantasy sequence yes it also it like looks like tank photography in this very traditional way even though it is ostensibly a quote-unquote real-world sequence, it is as coded in the language of the genres of films that you're seeing in the productions. Right. And even the look of the submarine, having this kind of model, and then you're like, now we're just on a big balsa wood that's clearly only the top layer.

2:16:57David Sims:That's the one where I, like, that's the one scene I feel like doesn't have that dichotomy that the rest of the film has that's kind of like, it's fake, but it's real at the same time. We pull away, we see the set. It's a classic Cohen deflation, right? Of like, this is the big meeting, and then like Channing does his like perfect like dancer jump. But his his foofy little dog jumps off and he has to catch him, which then causes him to drop the briefcase and it was all for nothing. God, 100k. Yeah. I think we're going to play the box office game unless there's anything else. I just call it one tiny thing I like.

2:17:33David Sims:Please. Jonah Hill tells a story about the weekend that Superbad came out and he went out to a bar with his friends and they were like, you're a fucking movie star overnight. This is crazy. You've got to have like the best weekend of your life. Right. You've just like immediately made it. And they go to this bar and Scarlett Johansson's there. And they were like, you should go talk to Scarlett Johansson. And he was like, a guy like me can't talk to Scarlett Johansson. And they were like, my guy, you just became a movie star. Right, you're number one at the bar. There's things a hit. Sure. You can go talk to her.

2:17:59David Sims:And he went over and talked to her. And she clearly had no idea who he was. And he talks about it as like the perfect immediate deflation at the moment he was riding high. there's something kind of nice about this movie ending with him getting married off screen. It is beautiful. I like that she pruned his ego and then, you know, off screen inflates his character. It also feels like part of what attracts her to him is that he is some schmo where she's like, this guy isn't going to get caught up in some crazy fucking ego. Totally. Well, she likes again that he's reliable and he's, well, I don't know.

2:18:34Can I say one more thing? Listen, listen, you're not tired of me yet. I mean, here's, it's, it's like, I feel like rewatching this for me, I was kind of like, yeah, this movie is about, I mean, it's about a million things, but it is also squarely about whether, you know, to have passion for the job that you do. And is it like, how much do you sacrifice in order to feel fulfilled to an extent at the, at what you do day in and day out? And, and there is a way to read this film as like, well, Well, the problem is he could do Lockheed and he would just be dead inside or he does this and he continues to not see his family and he's, you know, dying in some other way.

2:19:13And there's no and there's no middle ground. And that's such a bleak read. But the film. But what I love about it is that the Coens kind of push you to see it as more optimistic than that. They're reassuring. They're like Jonah Hill to me.

2:19:25David Sims:Well, also that Alison Pill is like, it would be nice to have you around more, but isn't like you better take that job. And his children still love him. And you can tell that he clearly wishes he could be there a little more, but he is so relieved that like, oh my God, his problem got solved.

2:19:39Griffin Newman:I'll tell you something. Please. I was married to Allison Pill. Home every night. No, if I was. Knock, knock. Sure. Open the door. I guess I would have keys. Key and door.

2:19:50David Sims:I got a prescription. It says one pill nightly. Exactly. Nightly. Do not skip. And thank you for saying that. And I do think it's important. Take with water. I love her. The reason I said earlier that there's this sort of like realization within Eddie that he is dirty show folk is that point, which is just like it's not about just finding joy in a job. But the whole thing about the fucking entertainment industry making stuff is for all the like perceived glamour. If you make it all the way to the top, which is a fucking moonshot, a lazy moonshot. So much of it is so unglamorous, so annoying, so soul crushing that the only reason you do it is if there's just nothing else you can do.

2:20:29David Sims:Right. Like to some degree, you're broken inside. where you're just like, even just being the guy fucking handing out the box lunches who once George Clooney is giving his speech seems like the most checked out dude in the world until that moment. And you see him lock in and be like, oh, fuck, Baird's doing a good take, right? As does everyone else on set starts to look up with this like Spielberg gaze of like, we're witnessing something cool happening. That's why we do this job rather than work at a restaurant, right? And I think it's telling that there are the couple of moments where the Lockheed Martin guy is interviewing Eddie and he'll say like do you really want to spend all your time like babysitting children you know like carny circus folk like he'll say these kind of derogatory things and every time he does something like that it cuts back to Mannix and he winces where he's just kind of like holding it together but he's like don't talk that way about my people right I know you think that I'm the serious grown-up who gets things done and they're the silly petulant but it's hard for them and like I am one of them I just do it in a different way

2:21:30Griffin Newman:he cares can I just share one final thing me too make it three I don't know we'll see but the water sequence is awesome

2:21:42David Sims:the Johansson I like when cameras get splashed with water

2:21:49Griffin Newman:and I want to see that more do you like a wet cam I do Yeah, I do. Yeah. Sometimes blood does that. Dirt does that. Yeah. But you want the water. Stain the lens. Yeah, mess with the lens. Throw stuff on it. Yeah, don't check the gate.

2:22:05David Sims:Yeah. You want a dirty lens.

2:22:08Griffin Newman:Keep the gate unchecked. And then I'll just say with the Roman kind of opening, when you see Clooney, I think arches for pedestrians. Yeah. I want to see more of that again. I'm sorry. It's so epic to walk under an arch. So you just want to be like on the street and like, here's an arch. It's not serving any real purpose. Yes. But now, do you ever feel that way when you're like walking under some scaffolding on a New York City sidewalk? No, I don't feel that way. That's a Washington arch. I'm more like rats. That's arch in progress. Arch in progress. Arch to be shot. Do you go to Washington Square Park and just.

2:22:45Griffin Newman:Yeah, big arch. Loop around. You should be crushed every day. Yeah, absolutely. Doing laps. Grand Army Plaza. There's a few big arches around. Ben, you should go to Paris and then go into the middle of the Etoile and just go. I did last summer and I got a lot of arch. I got a taste of it. Fucking point me to the French triumphs of late. Jesus. I got a whole arch for it. You're being so nasty and not nostalgic today. Yeah, that's so true. Ah, Paris. You're being more of a Thessaly Thacker when you should be more of a Thor Thacker. I can't wait to revisit France in my most excited upcoming new movie, Ratatouille 2.

2:23:26Why don't they just call it Ratatouille?

2:23:28David Sims:I hope that by the time this episode comes out...

2:23:31Griffin Newman:That rumor has been quashed.

2:23:32David Sims:Yes.

2:23:33Griffin Newman:Definitively.

2:23:34David Sims:But I also wonder if 50 % of the meeting where they're batting about is just like, I mean, you put the two, numeral two in the title, the thing sells itself. You could really put it anywhere. A marketing department could take the year off. My guess is it's a cat that now cooks with the rat. That would suck. Ben, I've liked every idea you've ever had until this moment. They have to figure out how to get along. Ben, they can't put a cat in a chef's head. It's just the cat in the hat. Yeah. You can't. Wow. And he's already got his own movie coming out. He's already. Damn. Okay. We'll see, I guess.

2:24:03We got to workshop this. Yeah.

2:24:05Griffin Newman:The film came out. Uh-huh. Are you going to say it was Shirley? It's only when the film came out. To the box office. We love Shirley so much. I love you guys. I've missed you guys. We've missed you. Our listeners have missed you. Do you remember this? return. I've missed hearing Griffin say totemic, which he hasn't said today. Totemic. You use the word totemic a lot.

2:24:22David Sims:I'm going to save it. I do. Haven't I said that to you before? Never mind. Okay, going on. I think you have. I was debating whether

2:24:27Griffin Newman:to say it now or save it further in the episode and make it count. You were in town last year. Oh, yeah. I mean, you're off. You come into town sometimes. I come into town. I'm in about town. We had dinner at Plastiffet. Oh, yeah. Nice work if you can get it. And then we walk out. If you remember this, we're walking Clinton Hill. And then I see just out of the corner of my eye into the window of like a person's house. And what was happening on the television was something we had successfully blocked out, which was the Trump-Biden debate that annihilated Biden for good. Like, I think we had been like, let's have dinner and we won't worry about the, you know, like, ah, you know, so stressful.

2:25:04Griffin Newman:And then like, I got home and like my brother was texting me, you know, my wife, where they were like, it's the apocalypse. He's basically stood there not speaking for an hour. Even Trump seems concerned. No, that was the last happy moment. You went home to Ariana? Was it one of your friends? I was staying at Ariana's. And I think she was like, I walk in the door and she goes, Biden's gonna win. And you were like, oh, really? And she was like, no.

2:25:30David Sims:I looked up because I knew I had deliberately planned something else on that night.

2:25:36Griffin Newman:We all had the same thought of like, I can't be, you know, watching that. And we were like, we'll grab dinner after our very hard job.

2:25:42David Sims:Romley and I went to see Little Shop of Horror for the third time and I walked out and I was like Little Shop, Little Shop and then I got like 40 texts that are like It's all fucked up It's all fucked up It's collapsed

2:25:55Griffin Newman:Truly, it was one of those things where I was like well I assume you do bad and they're like well you assumed wrong it's a billion times worse

2:26:02David Sims:I think like 10 different people in my life texted me skull emojis Wait that's right I remember being like oh no he didn't do well did he and she was like Mm-hmm. It's an understatement.

2:26:12Griffin Newman:I'm good.

2:26:12David Sims:Right.

2:26:13Griffin Newman:First minute was fine, I feel like. It pretty quickly went off the rails.

2:26:17David Sims:Yeah, he started with Corn Pop. Great opening. Yeah.

2:26:19Griffin Newman:Oh, man. They just kept telling him to say what that... General Motors is alive and Corn Pop is dead. What if he started with that? All right. The film came out. Yeah. February 5th, 2016. Mm-hmm. Number two at the box office, opening to$11 million. It ends up at? Domestically, it ended up at$30. Okay. And worldwide, it was$665.

2:26:38David Sims:It is kind of crazy that the Coen brand was so strong at this point that they can make a movie for$22 million that just gets to$30 million, even though most of the public is like, huh? Sure. On to the next one. But okay, yes.

2:26:53Griffin Newman:So number two. Number two. Number one at the box office is an animated sequel, number two, like in its second weekend. It's a deuce. It's in second. No, no, it's not a number two. Sorry, it's in its second weekend. It's an animated sequel. Is it a three? Yes, it is.

2:27:08David Sims:It's a three. Is it Kung Fu Panda 3? Correct. Kate Hudson. Is that right? I believe his lady panda in that. Oh. Ryan Cranston, his dad panda. He finds all the other pandas. It's a movie set in the land of the pandas. I have never seen it. I think I've seen that one. And you know so much. I think the only one I haven't seen is four. I haven't seen either of those. I know that one was a co-production with, like, I believe Pearl Animation Studios. No, you know what? I've never seen it. I've only seen one and two, I guess. DreamWorks specifically launched a Chinese animation company to get funding from the Chinese government and be like, and we're going to make movies for your market.

2:27:47David Sims:And it was called Pearl Animation Studios. And I think that when they were like, we're doing something kind of interesting. We're not making this one. Pearl is making it. A different company. That really worked. Really worked. Pearl was shut down five years ago. David?

2:28:03Griffin Newman:Three and four are holdovers from Christmastime. Both very successful movies.

2:28:07David Sims:Okay, from 2015. I would have to imagine that one of them is Star Wars Episode VII The Force Awakens. That is number three. Okay. At the box office. It has made$906 million in eight weeks. People like to forget that it is still domestically the highest grossing movie of all time. Number four at the box office is... I do like to forget that. People forget that. People think that Endgame overtook it because it did worldwide. It overtook it worldwide. But domestically, it's Force Awakens by a good margin.

2:28:39Griffin Newman:The other one. Is a Best Picture nominee. Won some Oscars. Big hit. Star Wars counter-programming. I guess so. Grown-up movie for sure.

2:28:48David Sims:Grown-up movie 2015. It was a big hit. We crossed over. Oh, it is The Revenant. Yes. Which made a lot of money. And it was a big hit. I think sucks in his for losers. I'm more

2:29:01Griffin Newman:of a fan of it than you I'm wondering if I were to watch it now I would respect it more

2:29:08David Sims:it's like sort of an unbelievable technical achievement I will brag that I saw it early and I was like this thing sucks this is DOA and I had the opposite whole reaction where I walked out and I was like this thing is making zero dollars and it's fucking coming up empty at the Oscars like I had an unvarnished opinion before I'd heard any reviews and that thing just completely bounced off of it is not your kind of movie

2:29:32Griffin Newman:i would say sort of mountain man serious survivalist epic thing but i also think leo

2:29:38David Sims:winning the oscar for that is like a good encapsulation of a lot of what's wrong with the oscars and their mentality definitely you don't think you don't think actors should suffer he ate liver exactly i saw the revenant with my dad and he walked out and was like that bear was too small. He fixates on like one critique and it takes him out of it. Mostly because if there's a bunch of talking, there's a language barrier and he needs a minute. But that movie. The bear was too small.

2:30:06Griffin Newman:Number five at the box office is new this week. It is a romantic drama, a Sparks. It's a Sparks. I would say the more forgotten Sparks.

2:30:15David Sims:It's one of the more forgotten Sparks. Interesting. Is it the one with Marsden? No. No. Okay, I'm going to try to get to this by Star. It's not the Julianne Hough,

2:30:31Griffin Newman:Josh Duhamel one. Yeah, you're going to struggle with Star because I would say this one is a little light on, you know, Stardust. Right.

2:30:39David Sims:It was a Marsden, Michelle Monaghan, I think were the ones.

2:30:43Griffin Newman:You can talk about other Nicholas Sparks movies if you want.

2:30:46David Sims:But this kind of had...

2:30:47Griffin Newman:I feel like these are two guys who they are hoping, you know, a guy and a gal who they are hoping to make stars. It's not the lucky ones. No. No, is it younger? Nope. I just looked this up and I forgot this existed.

2:30:59David Sims:Are the stars young? Uh-huh.

2:31:02Griffin Newman:I don't know. They're in their 30s. Okay.

2:31:04David Sims:Early 30s. But they're trying to launch them as stars. I think so, yeah.

2:31:08Griffin Newman:The guy is someone that Hollywood for a few years is like, should he be a star?

2:31:12David Sims:Uh-huh.

2:31:13Griffin Newman:And it was like, no.

2:31:14David Sims:So it's not that. Yeah. Did Patrick Schwarzenegger do one at some point? But it's not that. I mean, he's about to be like Cyclops or whatever. I know, he's going to be something.

2:31:24David Sims:Hollywood was trying to make them happen. I mean, sort of.

2:31:29Griffin Newman:I'll tell you that the film made$23 million on a budget of$10. Okay. I'll tell you that it was directed by Ross Katz.

2:31:36David Sims:Hmm.

2:31:37Griffin Newman:That really does not help at all.

2:31:41David Sims:No, it doesn't. Who was the distributor of this picture? The distributor was Lionsgate. So it was also kind of maybe a lower tier one.

2:31:49Griffin Newman:Yeah. And I feel like the spark shine is kind of going away at this point. Like this is a leader, you know. This one's tough.

2:31:56David Sims:Yeah. I mean, I completely forgot this. Give me one of the stars and see if I might not even be able to get this title. But give me give me one of the stars. Benjamin Walker. Oh, fuck. Yes. And it's Teresa Palmer. Correct. And it is called. Fuck. You've also got Maggie Grace.

2:32:13Griffin Newman:I can picture the poster. Alexandra Daddario. You know, the truth is you could just toss out any word.

2:32:17David Sims:He's wearing sunglasses and got a dumb smile. It's not called like The Best of Us, is it? No. But the title's almost something that meaningless. Yeah, just toss out words. All of me. Is there an of in the title? No, there's a the. Is it the blanks? It's called The Choice. Yeah, that's one of the least existent movies we've ever had. It's pretty tough.

2:32:41Griffin Newman:Alexandra Daddario, Tom Welling, Tom Wilkinson. Humana, humana, humana. That's the one getting you going. Panned by critics. Also new this week at number six is Pride and Prejudice and Zombies, another sort of bomb. Yeah. Directed by Burr Steers, I believe.

2:33:01David Sims:I went down a weird Wikipedia rabbit hole on how fucking hot the development of that movie was for 10 years before it ended up just getting kind of fucking dumped in theaters. But people forget that was supposed to be Natalie Portman starring and David O. Russell directing.

2:33:16Griffin Newman:They dumped it. Right. It was like the juice of that gimmick had like long since vanished.

2:33:21David Sims:And fucking Benjamin Walker as Abraham Lincoln Vampire Hunter had bumped. Had happened and bumped. The thing was over.

2:33:27Griffin Newman:You've also got a movie I stand for, Craig Gillespie's The Finest Hours. Yes. And Getting Over That Bah. You gotta get the boat over the bah. You got Ride Along 2. Not. The film you tried to get in a part of, right? I was you were close I was close yeah

2:33:44David Sims:and then they replaced you with like Ken Jeong or something I don't know if I've ever talked about this on mic or if I've talked about it on mic 80 times but they they wanted me I would have had to have quit the pilot of vinyl before it was shot

2:33:57Griffin Newman:yes that was it right which was like

2:34:00David Sims:I mean at the end of the day I think it's better

2:34:02Griffin Newman:that you did vinyl

2:34:03David Sims:it got directed by Martin Scorsese that's the biggest thing and it did go to series and it did pay my rent for a year when this podcast made no money I did too.

2:34:11Griffin Newman:Like, you know, no one remembers Rinal on 2.

2:34:14David Sims:You know, the other part of it is the casting director who was really kind of championing me for this part, which was written to be a fucking 20-something Zuckerberg-y annoying guy. And it was me, Will Poulter, and Dylan O 'Brien. Sure. And it was a test. And they wouldn't let me test unless I quit vinyl. And I came to trivia and I hadn't slept in two days. And I was like, this feels like the biggest decision of my career. What do I do? And it was an overlap of two days between the two productions. But they wouldn't allow it. and I had to quit the one job and I chose Vinyl, which was the right move.

2:34:44David Sims:But the other thing that happened was that casting director had such a bee in her bonnet of like, I want to fucking hire him that a year later she gets hired onto a new series and says, this is my chance to hire Griffin and it was The Tick. There you go. If I had done Vinyl and 2, I probably also wouldn't have done The Tick, which is more important to me. And that's how I met you. That's how we met. Yes. You interviewed him for The Tick. We're being nostalgic and not nasty, dude. Shirley showed up on set. I came to set. What I'm not kidding was probably the hottest day we ever filmed. It was in a cooling tent.

2:35:14David Sims:The day before that, the tent was a cooling tent that didn't have a fan. They bought the fan because that previous day, Peter had fainted. And so Shirley at least got to be in a tent with a fan. And we met. Yeah, we love Shirley. Aw, I love you guys. Griffin, him and breaking big. It was the headline. That was fun. I mean, I remember you guys were, yeah, you guys were doing your podcast. I remember meeting you and you were, and David was like, Like, you're going to meet my friend. And I was like, I know this. But we'd only been doing the podcast for a little over a year at that point. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

2:35:44You were very neat. I still remember when you were, we were walking to Olive Garden. I was a fellow at the Atlantic. And you were like, I think my friend and I are going to do a Star Wars podcast. And I was like, that sounds fun. Yeah. Sounds neat.

2:35:54Griffin Newman:That sounds right. You should do that. Good luck with that. Weird choice. Yeah. Remember when we went to Olive Garden? It was kind of a weird choice. Still the only time I've ever been. Yeah. I don't know why we did that. It was like, meet you, Joe, and Kevin. Yeah, I think it was a bit. It was Kevin being like, let's have breadsticks.

2:36:12David Sims:The breadsticks are good. The breadsticks still hit.

2:36:15Griffin Newman:Decated Dreams. No, but not at the box office. No, but not at the box office. The Boy.

2:36:22David Sims:That movie about the boy with Jared Kushner. Oh, right. Of course. Which then led to Brahms colon The Boy 2.

2:36:29Griffin Newman:Of course, Brahms The Boy 2. Of course. Which was directed by Tarkovsky. I don't know. It's one of the weirdest titles ever. Brahms The Boy 2. Is Kitty Holmes in both of those movies? She's in Brahms the Boy 2. Of course. But she is not in The Boy. How absurd. She doesn't get enough until Brahms enters. Number 10 of the box office is Dirty Grandpa. Uh-huh. And that's the 10 of the Hail Caesar. And that's that. That's over. February 2016.

2:36:56David Sims:Yeah. Shirley, thank you so much. Thank you for having me. I'm so glad we made it happen. It's got to happen again sooner. I'll be back in town. When we get David on a train to LA! Yeah!

2:37:17David Sims:David is asleep. No, he's just doing the whale again. He's too tired to even do the whale. Shirley, is there anything you want to plug? Oh, we got it. It's kind of a whale. It was like a whale post-heart attack. It was a tiny whale. It was a little whale. in the film The Shallows. Baby beluga.

2:37:42Anything I want to plug? Yeah. I don't know. My iPhone in because it needs charging.

2:37:47David Sims:10 comedy points. Great job. Thank you. I don't know. I'm still at The Atlantic with David over here. Hell yeah. You know, great to always work with David. Can't believe he's out here. How things have changed over time. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. I'm around. Hell yeah. Thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate, review, and subscribe. Uh, tune in next week for the Ballad of Buster Scruggs. Uh, that's right. Yes. We don't know who's on that one. No, we don't. Probably Buster himself. I think we're very close to booking Buster, but he also has thrown his hat in the ring for League of Their Own.

2:38:19David Sims:So it's, we don't know which one he's going to end up on. And as always, Shirley, thank you for another totemic episode of this podcast. Wow. Oh man, I'm honored. Okay.

2:38:32Griffin Newman:That's a wrap on Shirley. Great girl. you two have to stay and record ads

2:38:44Griffin Newman:okay all right gang I got my quote right all right I'd like us to have fun out there all right really bring your true self feel authentic okay I can't

2:38:56David Sims:is this your impression of a director it does feel very soccer coach I'm suddenly nervous I don't know what to tell you you need to have big director bullhorn All right.

2:39:07Griffin Newman:Well, listen, I think we should get into it. Yep. All right. Action. Yeah. Blank Check with Griffin and David is hosted by Griffin Newman and David Sims. Our executive producer is me, Ben Hosley. Our creative producer is Marie Barty Salinas. And our associate producer is AJ McKeon. This show is mixed and edited by AJ McKeon and Alan Smithy. Research by JJ Birch. Our theme song is by Lane Montgomery in the Great American Novel, with additional music by Alex Mitchell. Artwork by Joe Bowen, Ollie Moss, and Pat Reynolds. Our production assistant is Minnick. Special thanks to David Cho, Jordan Fish, and Nate Patterson for their production help.

2:39:50Griffin Newman:Head over to BlankCheckPod.com for links to all of the real nerdy shit. Join our Patreon, Blank Check Special Features, for exclusive franchise commentaries and bonus episodes. Follow us on social at BlankCheckPod. Subscribe to our weekly newsletter, Checkbook on Substack. This podcast is created and produced by Blank Check Productions.