Inside Llewyn Davis with Rachel Zegler

9:44David Sims:they had been like one a year on a clip and then there's three years. And they took their time on this one. They really gave themselves the space. And it shows. It shows. It's my favorite film of theirs. It's called Inside Llewyn Davis. This is a miniseries called No Country, Pod Country for old cast. For old cast. There you go. There you go. Who's our guest? Our two guests today. Guest one. Guest one. He's known as Lenny the Wonder Dog. Alphabetical order. He's finally calmed down. Yeah. His head resting on the desk. He's a cutie pie. His name. He's so cute. Is Leonard Bernstein. Yes.

10:21Griffin Newman:The dog. Is it actually Leonard Bernstein or is he just Leonard? No, well, so his name is Lenny, but he's named after Leonard Bernstein. And so he's Leonard Bernstein Zegler.

10:30David Sims:There we go. That's him. LBZ. LBZ? Yeah. And our second guest today returning to the show. Less important. Well. Well. Lenny is also returning. We were never going to be able to book Lenny without you. So you're equally important in that sense. You're right. He can't walk himself here. You're his stage mom. I am. I'm his mama Rose. Avita. It's me. Rachel Zegler. First Lady of Argentina. Coen Brothers win our March Madness thing. We commit to them. We're figuring out guests.

10:59Griffin Newman:I know you're doing Avita in London. You are truly doing a show in another country. Eight times a week. Eight times a week. and you got to go on that balcony and London isn't warm. No. Or was it sometimes warm? We had a really nice summer, actually. Yeah. And I didn't get rained on either. Did you ever? Outside on the balcony, never got rained on. That's wild. Like, at least not like in torrential downpour state. Yeah, maybe a little drizzle. Like a mist. I mean, London's so misty. Yeah, but I had the most beautiful weather for the balcony. So wait, you're during the show actually like outside?

11:31Griffin Newman:Every night she goes outside. Sometimes twice a day. I would go out after intermission and the act two opener is Don't Cry For Me, Argentina. Heard of it. So I ever heard of that song? Yes. So I would go out on the balcony of the Palladium and look over Argyle Street and people showed up in droves. So the numbers

11:53David Sims:became the people outside the theater and then streamed inside to the audience. That's awesome. And it was such a hot topic of conversation. Is this good? Is this bad? Is this bad?

12:06Griffin Newman:I mean, that was the idea. Yeah. I mean, narratively makes sense that she wouldn't sing the song to rich theater goers. She sings to the people. She sings to the people. And it was like TikTok viral immediately. Terrifying every night. I always convinced myself no one was going to come. Like I was going to walk out. There'd be nobody. Like it's a farce.

12:24David Sims:That was your fear. It really was, you know, because the crowd kind of made the experience on the inside even more amazing because the camera had them on it.

12:33Griffin Newman:Oh, right, right. So people would always like, it would get applause inside the theater when the camera would pan to the amount of people. That's cool. Argyle Street is small. Because they don't know. They're stuck inside. They don't know. Right, Argyle Street is small. It's a half street, yeah. Right, it's like the Palladium, it's basically just foot traffic. There's not a lot of cars. And the way, it's sort of perfect. It feels like an old town square kind of vibe. Yeah. And also the Palladium, the balcony on the Palladium has this big gold crest that has a big P on it. Or Peron. Oh, wow. So it actually really worked in our favor.

13:04Yeah. It's for, yeah, it's obviously for the Palladium. No, it's for you. But I was like, this is really, this works really well. But yeah, so I was doing that when you texted me.

13:13Griffin Newman:You're doing that production. Yeah. The first show I saw on the West End when I was nine years old was Oliver at the Palladium. How old were you? Nine or 10. Yeah. And can I ask how many years ago that was? Great question. No, no, no, no, no, no. It would have been about, it would have been about like 95 or 96. Right. So 30 years ago. Because my sweet boyfriend, his West End debut... Was Oliver? Was Oliver when he was... I think he was 11 years old. Oh, he was one of the little guys. Yeah, he was one of the kids. But it was after that. No, I saw... I looked up what was in the Palladium while I lived in London.

13:52Griffin Newman:So it was Oliver from 94 to 98. And I saw that production. Then it was Saturday Night Fever, which never made it to Broadway, maybe. Maybe it did. No, it definitely did. It did. Not very successfully. Which was a big hit in London, which I saw as well. I remember when he jumps off the bridge, he like jumps down. Cool. You know, whatever. That's sick. It was cool. King and I, which I saw. Love. Oh, with Elaine Page probably. Yes. Yeah. And then Chitty Chitty Bang Bang. I don't think I saw that. So that would be it. But I have, you know, yeah. Cool. Now they have Evita. I played the Palladium twice too, which was pretty cool.

14:26Griffin Newman:With your own? My own set and music and pretty crazy. What was your 11 o 'clock number? My Man. Oh, yeah. From Funny Girl. From the last series that I did with you guys.

14:39David Sims:This is the other thing. So we put the Coen Brothers on the schedule. Our Reddit were very normal. I'm sure they were. Start wishlist and guess. Reddit and normal in the same sentence. And someone pings friend of the show, past and future guest, Rachel Zegler, very on the record about Llewyn Davis being her number one favorite movie of all time. Yes. And I say to David, should we ask Rachel? and David says first of all she's in London she's doing Evita she's doing eight shows a week secondly he was like it is very funny that we have go ahead this young like future facing star right on our podcast and all three times she's done depressing music movies yeah yeah that's true

15:20Griffin Newman:movies about how like musical chew you up and spit you out it's true so obviously Cabaret

15:25David Sims:A Star is Born and now Inside Louis David right three movies basically about like depression and failure you're in the music industry. Yeah. Or in musical theater. Yeah. And. Or the pending war. Yes. Well, it's true. Yes. I text you. You respond immediately. Yeah. I say, Coen Brothers on blank check. And you just all caps go like, Lou and Davis. And I was like, yeah, absolutely. And it's just been months of trying to find like, truly the three day window. She's here. I'm here. No problem. Dog here. Everything going great. Right, but it's been months of just like, without stress. No. The date's going to arrive.

16:04David Sims:We're going to find the window. It's leading, it was all leading up to this. It's all leading up to this. But no, I mean, even when you texted me, like, and we put down a date. Yes. And I was like, at that point, I wasn't doing my two shows at the Palladium, so. You're right, it was, you thought you were going to have a big cushion. I thought I was going to be home. It was before open. But then London fell in love with you. But then I really fell in love with London, too. Both directions. Yeah, it was awesome. But you basically auto-completed the request before I even had the chance to ask you.

16:30Yeah, you don't have to ask me.

16:31David Sims:You said just when and where. Yeah. Because I never get, you know, like, in these interviews that you do when you have the job that I have. Yes. You get asked what your favorite movie is, but you never get asked why. And you never get to sit there and explain why it's so fucking genius.

16:49Griffin Newman:Llewyn Davis, I love it. And they're like, that rocks. Oscar Isaac. Yeah, cool. You love Oscar Isaac. Anyway, like... Yeah, exactly. to shower at night or in the morning or whatever else. Literally that. Literally that. You can't live without. I had Jack Antonoff tell me that it's it's not even in the top five Coen Brothers movies in Cosmopolitan. And I was like, not only are you loud, you're wrong. And it's like.

17:11David Sims:I mean, this has been the nightmare this whole series as I try to like update the list in real time. I've seen all these movies many times. But upon these rewatches, things are moving around. Right. And by the way, life comes with different perspectives. Absolutely. And every Coen Brothers movie plays different to me every time I watch it. I agree. I like them all, but they all unfold different things. I find different things in them. That's not even top 10. He says not even top 10. Is that what he said? Top 10?

17:39Griffin Newman:Yeah, he says that's not even top 10. I'm glad it made it into the actual final cut of the article. Insane. Yeah. We're going to do our ultimate. We all love to Jack A, but my God.

17:48David Sims:We're going to do our ultimate ranking in the Buster Scruggs episode, but I was trying to arrange my letterbox list in prep. right last night, like doing some rough drafting. And I was like, the shit that's outside of my 10 is insane. I'm sorry. And it looks rude, but it's insane. Look how upset Sims is.

18:05Griffin Newman:You are overpowering Antonoff in this. I'm sorry. You're crushing him. He goes like, I like Dune. Who's in that? Oscar Isaac. And you say, are you just going to name all the Oscar Isaac movies? You're just slamming him against the wall. But that's how Jack and I, we're from New Jersey. It's like, that's love. It's banter. That's us showing love to each other. He says it's about, You say it's about Javier's comedic timing, which you're right. And he says, no, it's about the ships. And you say, that's wrong. It's actually about the worms. It's not about the ships. It's definitely way more about the worms.

18:32Griffin Newman:No one watches Dunes and goes, great ships. I'm sorry. The worms showed up to the BAFTAs. We love those worms. I was there. Or was that the Oscars? They were at the Oscars. Conan had the worm playing the piano at the Oscars, which I loved. Yes. Was that this year? That was this year. Yeah. I was there. Yeah. I can't fucking remember. Everything. This year, if you Google my year, nothing feels real. Sure.

18:58David Sims:But like you could say in casual conversation with someone, what's the movie with the space worms? Yeah, it's going to be Dune. Dune. It's going to be Dune. If you go, what's the movie with the spaceships? I'm going to say Star Wars.

19:11Griffin Newman:Dune is like your 40th answer. You presented the Oscar to Dune. I did. Because you did visual effects. I've done it twice now. That's funny. I've done special effects twice. like visual effects twice and Dune has won both. Right. So Lenny's ass is now on the mic.

19:27David Sims:Let's be honest. Do you know what's cooler than presenting an Oscar to Dune? Presenting an Oscar to Dune twice? I was going to say Dune two times. Nice. Did you see this movie when it came out? Oh, sure. Did I? Yes. So I couldn't see it in theaters because it was rated R and I was 12 years old. This unfortunately is the question I had to ask and I needed to get that answer. out of the way. But I was the same when it came out on digital. Okay. I saw it almost immediately and I shouldn't have. I was too young. But I was 13 years old and in my head I was already a struggling musician, which is hysterical now looking back.

20:07So I saw it quite young and I was obsessed and I watched it like every day of my like freshman year of high school.

20:13Griffin Newman:One might say this is an interesting movie for a freshman in high school to become obsessed with. Just because it's about a guy who's gotten the shit beaten out of him, right? Immediately. Yes. And you're just like... And physically. Right. Yeah, and physically. Right, actually gotten the shit beat out of him.

20:28David Sims:Yeah. Yes. I was going to say, this is the kind of movie that gets an R rating, not even because it's incredibly inappropriate, but just because it's like, kids shouldn't see this. Sure. He says fuck four times. Yeah, that's the thing. I mean, like, I don't think...

20:40Griffin Newman:Right, there's not much... It really is just for language. There's no nudity. And honestly, the content isn't even that crazy. No, no. It's really just like language and suicidal ideation. But even though the suicidal ideation isn't in your face. It's more contextual. The cult reality of pursuing the arts. Yeah. I would say that is rated R. Exactly. Yeah. And that's why 14-year-old me was like... Rated R for hard truths. That's why 14-year-old you love stuff. 14-year-old me was like, yeah, fuck yeah, dude. This shit sucks.

21:13David Sims:Tell me I'm doomed. Exactly. Do you think it helped you? because you have weathered a lot of storms in your young career. What are you talking about? I'm sorry. Let me check my notes here. Can you expand? Everything has gone well. No, we've talked about it in the past on and off mic, but you've had this fascinating career like shot out of a cannon with like incredible high highs. And then everything seems to have like an ensuing storm around it in one way or another. And I'm constantly impressed with how well you were able to keep your head on your shoulders and like process stuff and weather stuff.

21:44Thank you.

21:46David Sims:Do you think it is stuff like this that you were preparing yourself for the harsh reality of it rather than some golden version? Certainly, there's an aspect of lessons learned from movies like this that come out. And A Star is Born in Cabaret. And all that jazz. Those movies really do prepare you for rejection and feeling like you're in a rut and living the same day over and over and over and over again. Um, and yeah, I think there's certainly aspects of that. I think watching it during those storms were very, it was very helpful. So it is a movie you will like revisit as a comfort food. I see it.

22:26I watch it an embarrassing amount of times per year. The last time I watched it was like New Year's Eve this year. Like I ushered in the new year watching this movie, which is not something you should do.

22:37David Sims:But it kind of makes sense. Yeah. But I was alone on New Year's. I was like left behind by a guy. What the fuck? And it was like one of those things where I went, I'm just going to go home. I'm going to watch my favorite movie and I'm going to cry. And I don't know if you remember this year, we had like that amazing like lightning and thunderstorm this year on New Year's. And so it was like watching it in the comfort of my like cozy New York apartment, lightning and thunder in the background, Oscar Isaac wailing with a guitar. It was awesome. It is. Damp blanket of a movie. It's comforting. This movie is so comforting to me.

23:12David Sims:And yet I've seen so many times I had not seen in a couple years, but especially in the years after it came out. I saw this like three or four times in theaters. I kept rewatching it once it came out on Blu-ray. But I hadn't watched it in a couple years. And I forgot how intricate the web of his mistakes is. Oh, my God. Yeah. And so I'm like so comforted by the movie and its rhythms and the beats. And I was doing the fucking Leo point to my girlfriend and being like, here's the line. The line's about to come up kind of stuff. Yeah. That too. He doesn't see a lot of money in this. But then there were so many moments where I would like grab my skull and squeeze it.

23:47David Sims:And I'm like, oh, fuck. I just remember what he's about to do. Yeah. He's about to say the dumbest thing. He's about to ask Justin Timberlake. That moment is astounding. For money. For an abortion. For his wife. He got pregnant.

24:01Griffin Newman:Yes. It's crazy. Like, it's crazy. He maybe got pregnant. He probably did. But, you know, by the end of the movie, you don't know. You don't know. And that's what's amazing about it.

24:11David Sims:Of course. Ugh! I love this fucking movie. It's one of the best movies. It really is. I'm jealous that, like, I'm jealous for anyone who got to see it in a theater. I'm always waiting on a re-release. When I finally get my ass in that Criterion closet, it's the first one I'll go to.

24:26Griffin Newman:Oh, we gotta get you in there. I know. It's my dream. But I do have the Criterion collection copy of it. Yes. And I had a, my laptop case is like the cat on the, waiting on the student. The Criterion cover is the cat with the guitar case. And that's my laptop case.

24:44David Sims:Have you watched the thing on the Blu-ray that is Guillermo del Toro talking to the Coen brothers? No. It's like 40 minutes long. I sent it to everyone in the Blank Check group last night for a shady Russian website.

24:56Griffin Newman:It's hard not to be charmed by Guillermo. Of course, Guillermo. I feel like he'll just get anyone talking. Have you seen that new tweet that he sent out when somebody was like, Guillermo del Toro is like, he's like just a girl because he makes all these things that he wants to make and he said like that is me like he responded that is me then they were asking about it on the Frankenstein carpet about why he's just a girl

25:21David Sims:and I love him he gets it he's so infectious and he's so knowledgeable and he's so good at speaking about film and he's clearly so in love with the Coen brothers and I watched the interview and it feels to me like the most open I have ever seen them be yeah Because they're usually so cagey and don't want to like overanalyze their films. Yeah. And the fact that it's like he's one of them and they're able to throw questions back at them. But there's the key quote in that thing where they go, when it came out, people asked us, how did you decide to make a movie about an unsuccessful folk singer? and they were like, it was only being asked that question that for the first time we realized we had never even considered the idea of making a movie about a successful folks again.

26:10David Sims:It never would cross our mind. That's fantastic. Yeah.

26:15Griffin Newman:Yes. And automatic. Yeah. So, okay. So, Rachel, right. You fall in love with this movie as a teenager. Griffin, I assume you saw this in theaters. I sure did too. I remember getting in a big, an excited discussion about it with JD Amato, friend of the show at Lincoln Park. Remember that bar? Yep. We all used to go. It was called Lincoln Park, right? Yep. Lincoln Park, the bar named after the band. But not the town in New Jersey where you're from. Where Ben is from. Where Ben is from. So Lincoln Park, of course, means many things to many people. Emo band. Yeah. I've become so numb. I can't feel you there.

26:47You know how it is.

26:48Griffin Newman:I'm crawling in my skin. But no, where JD and I were like agreeing about like how it's like about how creativity is iterative. and it's like you do so much and you accomplish so little, but then things barely do change. And like that, you know, like that's, I just remember very animated.

27:06David Sims:No, I, that was the bar we go to after Chris Gethard. Yes. I remember having an almost identical conversation with JD at the Creek in the Cave, I think after Gethard's album taping, possibly. It's when he recommended film spotting to me for the first time because we couldn't stop talking about this movie. And he was like, you should listen to their episode. on this. I think that's when I first started listening to them. But the same thing of like, you know, JD, who's very heady about this stuff, being like, careers are these series of like branching opportunities. You have these cycles of like there's an opening and suddenly there's a path to be able to build your life and be recognized.

27:44David Sims:And this movie is all about that loop and a guy who keeps on making every incorrect decision over and over again. Yeah.

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29:06David?

29:07David Sims:Yes? Got any big summer plans? If you're traveling, you got late nights, packed weekends, zero structure, any of those, keeping AG1 in your routine helps you stay consistent. That's a loaded word right there. Consistent. Yes. When everything else gets, and here's another loaded word, unpredictable.

29:26Griffin Newman:Oh, I don't want that. And I know you don't either. Look, it's a daily health drink with a multivitamin. Yep. Pre and probiotics. Yep. Superfoods. Mm-hmm. And antioxidants. It's an all-star lineup. One scoop, eight ounces of water. You just shake it up. There you go.

29:41David Sims:That's it. You drink it. It takes 30 seconds. I know you drink it every single day. What's your favorite flavor right now? Right now, I'm actually really big into berry. I've been cycling through them, and I've really been enjoying this berry phase. I will say this as well, David. You said it wherever you are. I'm about to go away for six weeks, and you better believe I just ordered a whole box of travel packs so that I don't have to travel unarmed.

30:07Griffin Newman:I had no doubt. So visit drinkag1.com slash check to get your free morning person hat and free AG1 flavor sampler. I'm excited for that hat. In your welcome kit with your first AG1 subscription. That's an$82 value. That's drinkag1.com slash check.

30:26David Sims:When I wear that hat, it's going to be so ironic. Yes. I don't like the mornings. No. But I love AG1.

30:33Griffin Newman:Yes.

30:44Griffin Newman:We love it. We love it. It's a good movie. Should I open the dossier? What should I do? I think let's go straight to the dossier. Okay, all right. So look, Coen Brothers, they make a bunch of movies. Do you like the Coen Brothers, Rachel? I do like the Coen Brothers. This is a good question. Burn after reading is so fucking fantastic. There you go. Had you seen other films of theirs

31:01David Sims:before you saw this? Definitely not. I feel like everything of theirs made an R rating before, right? Yes. Yes. They're almost all R. Yeah. And I was certainly too young. I feel like the first one I watched after Inside Llewyn Davis was Burn After Reading. Right.

31:19Griffin Newman:Which is so great. It's such a great fucking movie. So the Coens, after they do True Grit, are kind of chilling. They're pretty tired. There was one report that they were going to do a TV show with Phil Johnston, the guy who wrote Cedar Rapids and Ralph Breaks the Internet. Ben. Hey. Hey. He loves Ralph Breaks the Internet. Damn. It was called Harvey Corbo. It was an hour-long single-camera comedy about a Los Angeles PI. I don't know. Nothing ever came of this. But they did. It's funny to think that they consider TV. It's a likely thing for them to consider, though. Like, that synopsis enough is enough for me to be like, yeah, the Coen brothers probably thought they were going to do that.

32:01David Sims:They did four movies in four years? Four movies in five years? Sure. Yeah. Four and four, I think. Right. So there is that sort of like... And it was this, as we've talked about, the spurt of creativity where like serious man and burn after reading are written around the same time that they're adapting No Country. When that's a hit, they're like getting automatic green lights on everything. Yeah, of course. Then it's the real, if you could do anything, what would you do? They pick true grip, but it's like they're just constant motion.

32:30Griffin Newman:Yeah. But so they're sitting around. as they do when they write. And Joel says, all right, well, how about this? A folk singer gets beat up in the alleyway behind Gertie's Folk City. And then they're like, well, why would someone beat up a folk singer? But they can't let it go. And so they return to this idea every so often.

32:45David Sims:This thing that often happens with their films where they have an idea they can't resolve. And they go like, put that on ice. And anytime we have writer's block for something else, we'll go back to it and see if we can iterate on it.

32:56Griffin Newman:So they like the idea, this notion of someone who's not successful, but not because they're not good. Right? So tell a story about like a folk musician who's like a failure but is good. And so that's interesting. Yes. Because like no one's, everyone like thinks Lewin is talented, right? Even Bud Grossman. It's just kind of like, yeah, but what's your thing? How do you fit into the world?

33:24David Sims:Going back to the, it is surprising how good Oscar Isaac is as singing thing. It's almost within the structure of the movie that like what he performs maybe once every 10 to 15 minutes. And in the time in between, the guy is such a self-destructive mess. He's so rancid that you're like, that you're like, he must not be that good on top of this. And then he breaks out a guitar and you're like, fuck, this guy is just getting in his own way. Yeah.

33:49Griffin Newman:The way Ethan puts it is we wanted a nice dick. Now, I don't think he means the guy's penis. Whoa, whoa, whoa. He means someone who blows his top, speaks out of turn, says something really dickish and then three minutes later is like, I'm a dick for doing that. You know what I mean? Like it's like, is self-aware but cannot help but be kind of a dick. And Dave Van Ronk is the guy they quickly alight on where they're like, right, this was the guy in the folk scene where everyone was like, he's talented. He's one of a kind. He is a tough hang. He is always making mess for himself. But my God, he was so fucking talented.

34:22Right.

34:23Griffin Newman:The mayor of McDougal Street. I assume that's the book. Oh, Chronicles. Chronicles. In the first chapter, he talks about meeting Dave for the first time. It's a really just short little moment here. They're hanging out and he asks him, how can I get a gig like working at the Gaslight? And Vinronk looked at me curiously with Snippy and Surly and asked if I did janitor work. Damn! Bob Dylan famously easy to get along with. Yeah. Both famously chill guys. Very normal chill men. Really easy to talk to. Right, right. Yeah. But of course then, Dylan played a song and he was impressed. Yeah, of course.

35:02Griffin Newman:To be able to get like some gigs. Did Bob Dylan, how did that career pan out? You know what? I just got into the chapter one. I'm not really sure how it pans out. Dude, I don't want to spoil it, but you're going to love what happened. I will say Chronicles is, we don't need these things anymore, I guess, because we have phones, but that was an awesome bathroom book because you just pick it up and you just get like, you know, five good minutes of Dylan music. Anyway. It's like, it's like the Joan Didion's the White Album, where you're like, I'll get a couple essays about in the 1970s. Little bite-sized.

35:32Griffin Newman:Yeah. Dave Van Ronk. Now, Lewin is nothing like Van Ronk, really, in the movie, apart from that kind of status. Dave Van Ronk was gigantic. He was Swedish. If you've listened to him, he has this really hoarse kind of awesome, gravelly voice. Not this beautiful little voice that Oscar has. He's mostly Irish. He just has the name. I feel like that was something he said about himself. So that he was a Swedish guy. Yeah, yeah. Swedish stock, maybe.

35:59David Sims:Because he was big. Yeah, he was big. When the Coen brothers announce a movie, they usually do not explain a lot. You know, you know the cast, you maybe know the title, but it's a working title. Maybe you know the setting. A working title production. And so there'll be rampant online movie nerd speculation from fucking idiots like us. And it feels like until the trailer comes out, you don't actually really know what the movie is. And because they've been working at such a fast clip and then this movie shot and then they had a really long post-production, They were like, we don't want to rush it.

36:28David Sims:There was like three years of mystery around it. That the early words were like, they've cast Oscar Isaac, this like young, semi-unknown actor. It's about the folk music scene. It's New York in the 60s. I remember early Dave Von Runk being like thrown out there as like it's maybe kind of based on him. And people thought it was more of a biopic or even if it was fictionalized, it was lightly fictionalized. And I think that has created an issue, perhaps, for the Dave Von Rump legacy, where people still kind of assume the movie is more closely based on his personality. Oh, interesting. Where he was difficult in a way that's very different than Llewyn Davis, that they really use it as a jumping off point of like, who's the other guy, right?

37:12David Sims:that like I think what they're obsessed with is the idea of like reading Bob Dylan's biography and for 98 % of the public you're like man this name comes up 800 times and I've never heard of this guy before who's the one guy in the scene who didn't become Totemic right and that's I think it's a totally fair like jumping off point for a film to be made and really they just kind of based his look you know like beard shaggy hair this is the Jackety War and they have the same album cover. It's jumping off. Yeah, because Dave Van Rock's album cover is the same as like the inside album cover that he shows to F.

37:50Murray Abraham.

37:50Griffin Newman:Yes. And similar repertoire too. A lot of the songs. Yeah, Green, Green, Rock and Road is a Dave Van Rock. Yeah, were like traditional songs that he played as well. If you listen to his Dink song, it's so different because his voice is different. It's worthless things. It's very cool. It's so like raspy and cool. But like, I'm pretty sure, I don't know if I'm fairly certain and this is a true story, that Oscar wasn't super good at guitar before this job. No, he was not. And then he met Dave Van Ronks, like somebody who had either learned from him or had played with him randomly at a bar in the village.

38:27And he took him upstairs and taught him how to play guitar. And if you watch Oscar, I mean, if you've ever watched Oscar play guitar, it's insane.

38:35Griffin Newman:He's doing something weird with how he plucks it, right? And that is because that is how Dave used to play. you play the guitar I do play the guitar and I also similarly learned for a film which film did you you play like Double Neck Bates like Shred my dad can really yeah actually but no I I learned for the Hunger Games Ballad of Songbirds and Snakes I learned from a woman who did not speak any English so that was really fun what did you

38:59David Sims:call music the universal language in many ways because you shot that in I shot it in in Poland and in Germany but I did learn and I played live for the movie so Oscar Isaac was basically

39:10Griffin Newman:he was like a dorm room after we saw Gladiator together I was like remember that? Gladiator 2 this story has shifted to

39:17David Sims:after we saw Gladiator 2

39:19Griffin Newman:after we saw Gladiator 2 which was a movie that came out I just remember texting me like Lucy Gray-Bared would have kicked all these guys ass because it's all arena fighting she was so good at arena fighting and I did it in heels that's right I seem to correct the story we saw it together

39:32David Sims:we almost goes to see Gladiator 2 we saw it in the same IMAX theater someone points to you and goes isn't that Rachel Zegler and you go oh yeah and you text her and then you talk. Yeah. It wasn't like, hey. And we talked over text. We also talked over text. I know. Did we see each other in person, though? Like, I remember. We stood up and I waved. We said hi.

39:49Griffin Newman:I cannot remember if we actually. I was with Kit Connor. You were with Kit. My sweetie pie. Yes. You're just framing it almost as if you texted Rachel.

39:57David Sims:We went to the quad. Hey, bitch. Want to go see GLAAD 2? He said, and that is. I just did a G-I-I. It's time. And then sent her a Fandango link. Exactly.

40:07Griffin Newman:to enter the arena coliseum. Sure. Yeah. Anyway, what was the point about this?

40:15David Sims:He learned how to play guitar. I was going to say, was he basically like a dorm room guitarist? Like he had like... Yeah, like he had...

40:22Griffin Newman:He had a ska punk band named Blinking Underdogs. That doesn't shock me at all. That's such a bad name. No, that's a great... Yeah, that's a great name. Are you kidding? They opened for Green Day, so apparently... Wait, no fucking way. I've had a little bit of success. That's amazing. Yeah. Because obviously, DJ Catrona, who's a friend of the show, a friend of the show, a friend of mine. How has he been on the show? King of memes. He actually wants to know why he's never been on the show. Really? We can have that conversation. Yes, let's hang out with him.

40:50David Sims:We're on a male thread with him. I know. And he says that he's really upset that you guys aren't memeing back with him. Because he made... He's so quick. I know, guys. I know. This is why we became friends. We both suffer from fast brain, is what we say. Look, I don't think we're allowed to talk about Shadow League, but let's just say we're in a very active email thread. It's fucking awesome. Based around movie nerdery. And I was the puppeteer for DJ last season. I do know this. You know that? I know this. I don't know if you want to take credit for what you helped him with. I did reveal. He revealed me in a very funny way.

41:20I can't remember what it was, but it was funny.

41:22David Sims:But he will make bespoke memes off of the thing that just happened in the email thread. He's disgusting in that way. Very fast and very well. He pisses me off. Yeah. But he is very good friends with Oscar. He's the reason I've met him. And essentially, like, Oscar used to live on his couch in L.A. Like, they were all just broke together in Los Angeles. And so he's like, do you realize how many, like, fucking times I had to tell him to stop rehearsing for that fucking movie? Oh, for this. Yeah, because it would just be, like, all the time playing Green, Green, Rocky Road. and so like and me avid fan of this film I have the record on my vinyl player essentially at all times I'm always playing it and DJ would just kind of stop coming over

42:08Griffin Newman:I can never hear these songs again I just can never hear these songs again he can't enjoy the movie I would I would listen to Oscar pluck that guitar all day and night that's the thing you have no I was like you don't understand how lucky you were you got to hear a Oscar worthy performance true I agree fucking disappointed that he was not not even nominated given a fucking or a Golden Globe he got a Globe nom but why didn't he win why didn't you give him yours fine that's what you should do I didn't get to accept mine in person and neither did she you got it the one year the Globes were cancelled it's just me too oh were there too there's the insane

42:42David Sims:fucking uh sag strike year oh sure I think it's the 2008 where they just like ran a list yeah yeah yeah where it was like a half hour entertainment tonight special where they showed photos and they were like and the winner is Johnny Depp Anyway, next category. I'm so sorry. I won via a tweet. I win.

42:59Griffin Newman:Yeah, that was... You had it weird. Lenny's sitting. So the Coen... Lenny's at attention. He's being a very good boy. The Coens are like, all right, folk singer, Dave Van Rock, this is all interesting. The world is so interesting to us. We can't really think of much of a plot. So we're writing something without an engine, right? There's no like narrative drive to this movie. So we'll just follow him for a week and not much will happen. And that's going to be okay. Which is, I suppose, was a bit of a risk. And when you think about like Burn After Reading True Grit, like these are very plotty movies.

43:29Griffin Newman:Yeah. And so... Yeah, like every five minutes there's a new twist. But it concerned them so much that they threw the cat in is how they put it. Now, obviously... David, David, David. Lenny, just be a little bit quiet. Look, we're going to have to discuss the cat in this. Lenny loves cats. Lenny loves cats.

43:46David Sims:Yes, they say that in the Criterion thing that they were like, we got so concerned with the lack of a plot that they were just like, if we throw a cat in there, that gives it a spine. Can Angelicals do? I mean... And so they threw in a cat. That's why this is a good New Year's Eve movie, because it's about a Jellicle ball.

44:01Griffin Newman:That's so true. But if an animal is in even the slightest danger or whatever, it does kind of keep you engaged in that weird way of save the cat shit. It's the hilarious thing that then the plot really did become the cat. Yes. And like the phrase... It's the big thing. Yeah. And that's why my favorite thing when people are trying to figure out what the movie's about, there's a great scene where he's on the phone trying to get in touch with the Gore finds. And he's talking to, I guess, the office, whoever it is at the desk. And he's like, tell him that Lewin has the cat. And she goes, Lewin is the cat?

44:39He goes, no, no, I'm Lewin. I have his cat. And the plot is Lewin is the cat.

44:43Griffin Newman:Lewin is the cat. It's fucking awesome. But also, we can think, there's much to discussion. There's so many ideas of what the cat represents, I feel like. I know people think that it's Mike. It's Mike. It's his grief. It's his, you know, anyway.

45:00David Sims:No, I think on a very simple level, it's just that the cat is the only thing bigger than him. It is the only thing outside of himself that drives him, right? It's the only thing he seems to care about.

45:11Griffin Newman:In a weird way, it's like... He has literally knocked someone up and has a family elsewhere and has a career he's trying to start or whatever.

45:19David Sims:The cat is the only thing in the entire movie that supersedes whatever his impulses are at any given moment. Right. He'll be selfless to try to save the cat. It's not even, well, yeah. Sort of. But it's almost like not even selfless. He'll stop what he's doing. It's just like some weird survival mechanism comes in. Like, you know, I find the moment where he stares at the poster of the incredible journey outside the theater. Right. The homework bound. Yeah. So, like, impactful. It is. And very moving. and it's sort of this notion of like, this cat's been on this whole movie that I'm unaware of, right?

45:54David Sims:Like he's looking at this like Disney movie poster and this tagline and being like, I've been caught up in my own shit and stressed about the cat. The cat just went and did something and came back,

46:04Griffin Newman:you know, and none of it had to do with me. Coen's, start casting. They want a musician who can act. They don't want an actor who can sing. Like they're looking for a musician who can act. They say they only auditioned real musicians. I wonder who. they don't say Justin Vernon and Bon Iver is one that they do say Bon Iver um which sort of makes sense that does make sense

46:25David Sims:someone recently talked about having auditioned for this I feel like now that it's been over 10 years on this movie that it's not tacky to talk about it people in promo tours will talk about it and there are a lot of stories about people being like I fucking bombed that audition well who you are

46:40Griffin Newman:talking about is uh Ryan Reynolds said literally that he bombed the audition for Inside Llewyn Davis There's no way it was for Lewin. It's what he says. It has to be for, what is it, Jim?

46:54David Sims:Maybe. That makes sense. My memory, and it was part of this movie being... That makes sense that it would be temporary. Imagining a Ryan Reynolds, Lewin Davis is crazy right now. Yeah. There would be a voiceover being like, yep, that's me. Sitting on that stool here. Casey Affleck talks about bombing it. I could see that. To play Lewin. I could see him bombing that. I could absolutely see him bombing that. There's some other people. He picked up a gun

47:18Griffin Newman:and said he couldn't do it anymore and they had to wrestle. It's Manchester. Connor Oberus says that he auditioned. That makes sense. Wow. A lot of people auditioned. Right. They took their net into the emo pool, the sort of like singer-songwriter pool. They didn't like anything they found.

47:32David Sims:But I think they had the sort of Armageddon problem of is it easier to teach a musician to act or an actor to sing? Well put. And they started, thank you, with the like, let's get a singer. And none of them were up for the acting part of it. And then they were like, fuck, I guess we go to actors. And none of them could handle the singing. And it's the lead role in the movie. It's the lead role. And the whole point is that like very similar. I mean, weirdly to bring it back to like a cabaret thing where it's like, why isn't Liza Minnelli breaking out of this club? She's so fucking good. Right, right.

48:03Like it's very much like that in this movie.

48:06David Sims:That's the other thing is you're like, the vibe has to be so right.

48:11Griffin Newman:I'm sorry. I have to quote Brian Affleck on the Armageddon commentary now that you've invoked it. because obviously Armageddon is... The second Affleck mentioned. Correct. Is that it's easier to train oil drillers to operate a space shuttle than it is to train space shuttle operators to operate an oil drill. A space shuttle operator. Space shuttle pilots. Astronauts is what I would call them. There you go. And when Affleck on the commentary is just like, how hard can it be? Aim the drill at the ground and turn it on. Right. And think about it all the time. He's so disdainful. He played an oil driller in the movie.

48:42The most Boston thing ever. Yes.

48:44David Sims:But I think that's part of the problem of it is like, materialists, a film I like a lot and defend with my whole chest. Good for you. Thank you.

48:53Griffin Newman:Very proud of myself. Bless your heart.

48:56David Sims:Has this core issue, and I remember asking you this when you saw it, where I was like, in what universe is...

49:02Griffin Newman:How does he get away with Chris Evans being a loser?

49:05David Sims:Right. That he's like an unsuccessful actor, right?

49:12Griffin Newman:There's silence in the room. Yes, no, but right. It's a movie where, you know, Pedro Pascal is the rich, successful guy, but Chris Evans is like, yeah, I can't get my life together. Right. Right. How does he get away with that? Right.

49:24David Sims:And my thing with that movie is, like, it needs to do a little more work to characterize the ways in which he's self-defeating, which you can do. Because if he looks like that, people are begging him to do, like, a fucking L.L. Bean catalog shoot at the very least. He'll be all right. I was begging Chris Evans to do that after Knives Out because of that sweater. Yes. Sell me that sweater, Chris. I'll bite off your back. And I did. You can see that, though, if they're auditioning musicians. You're just like, you are so talented that it doesn't matter how difficult you are. The audience will think this guy should be successful.

49:58David Sims:And you can also see actors playing the difficulty of it, but not being good enough as a musician where you're like, why would anyone put up with him for even a second? It is such a tough balance to strike. of this kind of guy we all know where you're like, it sucks that he's talented.

50:15Griffin Newman:Oscar Isaac, of whom you speak, though. Of whom you speak. It also sucks that he's talented. Juilliard grad. Rachel? Juilliard grad. Is he actually? I didn't know that. Yes, he is. Of course. Yeah, him and what? Chastain. Chastain. Yeah. Oh, right. Most Violent Year. That was very disrespectful.

50:32David Sims:But they've done like four things together. Yeah, they did the scenes from a marriage. So much sad sex in that movie. Was that the show they did on Broadway? They did a show on Broadway before Llewyn Davis. Because she popped a little before him.

50:44Griffin Newman:She did? I mean, all right. Give him a rest. He's doing his best. That's the thing. He's also not white. And it just takes us a second. Absolutely. Shout out to Latinos. Jessica Chastain, very white. God bless her. I like her. Good for her.

51:01David Sims:A tremendous talent.

51:03Griffin Newman:Very white. Oscar auditions. He plays the guitar for them. and they're like, oh, are you like, he's like, I've been playing it since I was a kid. And they were like, all right. And T-Bone Burnett, who obviously, their close collaborator on all the music, was like, he's great. He plays the guitar better than some people I know. And they were like, great, we're casting him.

51:20David Sims:My memory also in this period, just not to interrupt you, was that it felt a little similar to the True Grit thing, where there was this feeling of like, they still can't find the guy. Yeah, it was getting a little sweaty of like,

51:34Griffin Newman:Jesus, like we do need a lead actor for this movie.

51:37David Sims:And they're actually not going to go ahead if they don't have somebody in the clock.

51:39Griffin Newman:Studio Canal funded the entire thing,$17 million. They were making it essentially kind of independently. Yeah,$17 million. Right. Wow. Pretty crazy. Eric Franson is the guy you're talking about, Rachel, who he met at the old Gaslight. Yes. I love being right. And helped him prepare and taught him. It's called Travis Picking, which is, according to Oscar Isaac, a very complicated, syncopated style of playing that's kind of like ragtime piano. You use the thumb as the metronome. I mean, I don't know. I don't play guitar. None of this makes any sense to me. Sounds hard. Hey, I get it. And of course, he was in the punk ska band, Blinking Underdogs.

52:18Griffin Newman:And he says like, anytime that act looked like it was getting remotely successful, something would happen to fuck it up. And it was like Llewyn Davis-esque. So that's interesting. I do think the Cone should do a Llewyn Davis sequel set in the world of ska. Yeah. And I'm in it. Yeah. Everyone's like... Which ska revival? I don't, Ben, you help me. I don't know which one. I think maybe Third Wave. Great. Is that 90s? Place it in the late 90s. Like, yeah. Mighty Mighty Boss Tones. Real Big Fish. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Less Than Jake kind of-esque maybe band. I will say when he got cast in this movie, obviously I'm obsessed with the Coen brothers.

52:56Griffin Newman:And to me, he was like, yeah, he's like, I was like, right, he kind of popped in Robin Hood. Like, I didn't know. I mean, he was in Drive, but he's nasty in that movie.

53:05David Sims:He had been a guy who was starting to kind of pop in things.

53:09Griffin Newman:You'd notice him. Like, he's good in my much-invoked The Bourne legacy. He has a great part in that.

53:14David Sims:Which that is, he was one of, like, 20 people on the list for the lead. You know what, so I know the story here. Please share. He hurt himself learning how to skateboard and showed up to an audition to be the lead in an action film. Why was he learning how to skateboard? Ask DJ Katrona when you have him on the show. It's happening.

53:38Griffin Newman:DJ, it's happening. He and DJ were going to play skateboarding cops who solve history. Well, no. DJ's like a really, really great at skating. And I think Sweet Oscar just wanted to learn, but decided to do it right before a really big callback. Before they... I'm so embarrassed. I just have to correct myself. The third wave ska started in the late 80s. Oh, Jesus, man. I'm really fucked up. So it's more like the specials? We have to start over. Yeah. Yeah. Who's that? The two-tone sort of, yeah, UK sort of era. So is Boston's fourth wave? How many waves? I looked it up. It's argued. How many waves?

54:15Griffin Newman:I don't think we've like firmly established the fourth. Oh, okay. All right. We're still riding the third, I guess. I don't know. It's like the Messiah. We're like, this fourth wave will come one day. I just had to be sure. The one guy who cared, I corrected myself.

54:29David Sims:Can I also quickly pitch a buddy movie starring DJ and Oscar Isaac Is it called Scott boarding? They definitely want to do it. They're skateboarding Scott guys. I'm seeing you. You're getting a budget of$5. Especially now in this economy of filmmaking. Yes, you get$5 and a dream for Scott boarding.

54:49Griffin Newman:Now, look, they rehearsed for like a week, but it's pretty intense because the performances are live. These are not dubbed lip syncs later. No, they're really not. And it's fucking complicated. can we just do this Oscar Isaac yeah okay okay his career

55:06David Sims:yes so like he has some like young like teen roles then he goes to Juilliard right then it's sort of like re-emerging as a serious actor he's post fart man now right may we all someday be in our post fart man era yes nativity story is Catherine Hardwick right after or right before Twilight I'm sorry but it's sort of right after Passion of the Christ and they're like these are now gonna be all the rage. I think Lenny's hearing people outside. Lenny thinks he's guarding. Lenny also didn't like the nativity story. Which, yeah, Lenny's Jewish. This makes sense. I mean, he is. He's Leonard Bernstein.

55:40Lenny, come here. I love the idea

55:43Griffin Newman:that your dog, because of his namesake, is culturally Jewish enough to resist Christmas. He thinks he's a little suspicious. He doesn't understand putting a Christian Christmas. He likes commercial Christmas. Right, right.

55:56David Sims:He likes a Coca-Cola Christmas. And ho, ho, ho and jingle bells and presents for pretty girls. Post Passion of the Christ, when that was such a phenomenon, and everyone was like, this is the future. They make this big budget nativity story with Keisha Castle-Hughes and Oscar Isaac as Mary and Joseph. And there was a big push behind it and it totally belly flopped. But that was kind of his first push as a leading man. Then there's sort of this run you're talking about of like body of lies. He's really good in and a small role is kind of like a scummy guy. Yeah, he's good in that. He was only someone where you would notice him.

56:27David Sims:He'd pop in like the eighth or tenth role in a thing. So then he starts to become one of these guys on these casting lists of like projects where they're maybe interested in like launching a new leading man and trying to bump someone up. Born Legacy was that where before they decide to go to then king of the franchise's Jeremy Renner, there was a list of like 20 younger actors where they were like, do we cast it with someone who's on the brink of breaking out? Sucker Punch is one where people were like, who the fuck is this guy? I mean, he pops in that movie. It's not a movie I love. He's so great in it.

57:00Griffin Newman:But then it's like Drive, W-E. Like he's in this zone. I really enjoy him in Robin Hood, by the way. A movie I stick up for. I think that's Tom Blythe's first film credit. He's been a little baby. He's like a little feral child in it.

57:14David Sims:Wonderful. I'm fairly certain that's true. I'm looking up. But he is very good in Born Legacy, but it's like a real... It's a consolation prize. Yeah, he's one of the other guys. We liked you. We're going to have you like... You get to kind of run the movie for eight minutes.

57:28Griffin Newman:But he's literally like a failed, you know, Jeremy Renner, right? Like he's called outcome number three. Like he's like one of the other ones that didn't turn into a Bourne or whatever. But that's basically right before. And you are correct that Tom Blythe is literally credited as feral child. Oh my God, I knew it. In Ridley Scott's Robin Hood. Yes, angels. I just imagine like Ridley Scott walking around with a big cigar and then they open a door and they're like, these are the feral children. There's just like a bunch of kids right here. He's like, that one and that one. All right, moving on.

57:58David Sims:Oscar Isaac, not a method guy, but he is kind of infamously an obsessive research guy. So I'm just like, how does he get that good at the songs in a week? But I think he just goes turbo mode. I think he just does. Yes. That's his way. They filmed this in 2011 or 2012? I believe it's 2012. Great question. The answer is, I don't know. because I was pulling up some articles at the time from like...

58:27Griffin Newman:Yeah, Prince of Photography, early 2012.

58:29David Sims:Summer 2012, when the movie was in the can and people were like, is it going to come out this year? And everyone had the note of like, the Coens don't want to rush this. They're sitting on it. They're taking their time in the edit. It's done, but they're not going to push it out this Oscar season. And because they knew whenever they decided to release the movie, that would become Oscar season. Oscar Isaac season. and one person clapped and it was the person who made the joke. It's Lenny clapping.

58:59Griffin Newman:You're going out on a balcony just on his fine legs clapping. We're just seeing Griffin live stream that joke. Lenny has tears in his eyes.

59:07David Sims:Big strong dog, tears in his eyes. To be fair,

59:10Griffin Newman:I am holding a giant bone in the air. Oscar Isaac, good quote from him. I thought a lot about the comedy of resilience and why sometimes we find someone going through hardship funny. Happens in Chekhov a lot. I thought about Buster Keat. someone who's constantly going through near-death experiences, death experiences, yet we laugh, we root for him, but his face is melancholic. You know, like, I like that idea. Absolutely. I mean, like, even though it's physical only in his body language,

59:38David Sims:this isn't a movie with, like, physical comedy, the interpersonal situations he gets himself into have the energy of being, like, whacked in the back of a head with a board. Yes, here comes the anvil. Yes. I must

59:52Griffin Newman:obviously we don't really see him being romantic in this movie but we understand that basically everyone at some time is kind of given a thought to Llewyn Davis you know tumbling the hay

1:00:02David Sims:although I do think because he's so hot his last scene with um uh Carey Mulligan is so well modulated in my opinion because up until that point you're like so is the chemistry that everyone kind of gets off on how much of an asshole he is right and like berating him and then the final scene with her he's a little charming and vulnerable and you're like oh this is where he gets people is that like one out of every 20 times he's a real person and people fall for it and then he punishes them

1:00:29Griffin Newman:just want to move to the village in 1961 and have a spare room and just see who cycles in and out of that thing

1:00:34David Sims:you know right this whole movie really makes it feel like this was the place to be and the time to be there

1:00:40Griffin Newman:yeah sure

1:00:41David Sims:yeah

1:00:42Griffin Newman:I think the food wasn't as good back then though okay go off just saying right probably less good restaurants right Ben yeah like sandwiches Sandwiches cost like a dollar. There were like no ska bands. Zero. Absolutely zero ska. Goose, eggs, ska. That's actually... So why would we want to go? I mean, personally, folk music is my Spotify wrapped every year. So I would have a good time. I love folk music. I might struggle if I'm at the gaslight and they're like, you know, here are the four Irish guys in sweaters. I mean, maybe not. Those guys crush it. I love the Irish music. we squealing it's just funny that you're like I'm here to see Bob Dylan like nah he's fucking he's on vacation here are the white here are the four white cardigans it's so funny the first time I watched it I remember that scene coming on and being like I like their sweaters and what does he say he says I like their they have good sweaters they go they're not bad he goes I like their sweaters I tried to look up if they were like referencing someone specific but they're not it's just kind of like yeah that kind of shit would pass through a lot of ethnic, quote unquote.

1:01:48Griffin Newman:There was some notable Irish singer group that is talked about in the No Direction Home documentary. I can't think of who they are. It would be like, this is folk music. So here's Celtic folk music. Here's Polish folk music. People would be passing through from lands afar or whatever.

1:02:08David Sims:Well, it's also not incidental, and the Coen's talk about this, that the acts that he is most hostile towards on stage are the ones that are actually the purest version of folk music. Yeah. Are actually the most traditional version of folk music. Yeah. Like that group and the harpsichord or the, what is it? Auto harp. Yeah. Whose husband beats the shit out of him. Good. Are like, this is like traditional culturally like historic folk music. Where it was born. Right. Done in an unsexy way. I think.

1:02:38Griffin Newman:And he's like, fuck this. So what's the thing? It's not a zither. What's the thing? She's sort of like an auto harp. Yeah. It'd be funny if he actually beat him with the harp. You know, if you just came out here, it's like, I like the old-timey music, huh? They were called the Clancy Brothers. There you go. They sound charming. Tommy Makeham and the Clancy Brothers and Tommy Makeham. They were the Hanson of their day. Yeah.

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1:03:44Griffin Newman:Oscar consulted with his Juilliard teacher, Moni Yakeem. Just this is what interests me. Excuse me. Go ahead.

1:03:52David Sims:Most famous for being the movement coach who cracked RoboCop.

1:03:57Griffin Newman:Right, right. So as Oscar says, a famous that he learned movement from him.

1:04:01David Sims:Often invoked on this show, RoboCop, perhaps my favorite movie ever. And RoboCop's got a specific gait. Peter Weller will never not credit Moni Yakeem. I love that.

1:04:10Griffin Newman:Oscar also credits him for what he calls a walking, like a camel against the wind, which is how Llewyn's always like a little hunched and like always feels like the wind is like blowing in his face, which I really love. That movie does look so cold, doesn't it? It does look... It's one of those where you're watching it and you're like, I'm freezing watching this.

1:04:32David Sims:It's one of the great winter movies and especially like Northeast winter movies. Yeah. But like you're Peter Weller, they put a difficult suit on you. You go, I can't move, call Moni. Yakeem. Most people in Oscar Isaac's position wouldn't say, I obviously need to call in a movement coach for this.

1:04:47Griffin Newman:Absolutely. They would more be focused on the music or the whatever. Right. But this is why his walk is like half of the movie. And this is why he's not like, you know, a method actor, but somebody who loves to research. Loves to think about the crowd. Timberlake comes to them through Scott Rudin, normal guy. Normal guy. Carrie Mulligan's obviously bubbling around. She's getting more famous, I feel like an education is like two or three years before. And she's fucking brilliant. She's fucking brilliant. She's got the best line reading in the whole movie. Which is. She's got the best bangs in the whole movie.

1:05:20Griffin Newman:Yeah, give it to us. Ready? Rachel's kind of coiling. She's finding the character. I'm preparing. I'm talking. I just got off the phone with Moni Akeem and I'm ready to. No, I should have made you wear double condoms. Well, we shouldn't have done it in the first place, but if you ever do it again, which is a favor to women everywhere, you should not. But if you do, You should be wearing condom on condom and wrap it in electrical tape. You should just walk around always inside a great big condom because you are shit. You should not be in contact with any other living thing being shit. Lenny's clapping again.

1:05:51David Sims:I need the listener to know, Rachel was looking at nothing.

1:05:54Griffin Newman:Rachel ain't got no screen propped up in front of her. She just did that. No, that is line reading of all time. That is great. That's incredible. I love her so much.

1:06:02David Sims:She's so good in this. She really is. And she gets to a point where the female lead in Cripple of Inishman, where it's like, girl, come on now. Come on. But that is, that's a good performance in my opinion where you're like, you're mad at her for being so fucking negative towards what is already such a negative plot and negative situation. And then you kind of end the movie. You love her for a second with her getting the gaslight for him. But then you realize how she did it. But also the two of them had just done Drive Together. Yes! That's right, of course they did Drive Together. Married, but a very different vibe in their relationship.

1:06:38David Sims:They clearly have some comfort. Not a great marriage, I'll say. But she's in, right, it's like, in Education's 09, Public Enemies and Brothers are the same year, small roles. Wall Street Money Never Sleeps, normal movie, normal production. Never Let Me Go, our 2010, Drive and Shame are 2011.

1:06:55Griffin Newman:I feel like Drive and Shame are her first post-Oscar nom, like, projects where she's popping.

1:07:00David Sims:And then this and Great Gatsby are the same year. Love her in Great Gatsby. She's, like, very much in her... This and Great Gatsby being the same year is so... Because it's such... Like, it's really like Rachel McAdams doing Notebook and Mean Girls where you're like, these are two completely different films, completely different performances. Phenomenal. She disappears into both and she's fantastic. Agreed.

1:07:17Griffin Newman:Love her in Far From the Madding Crown. Highly recommend to anyone who hasn't seen it. I've never seen that. I've never seen it either. Check it out. I know. So, John Goodman, so Timberlake, blah, Logan, John Goodman, here's a quote from him. You know this quote. He had not worked with them since her brother. I do not know the quote. I got an email from Ethan that said, quote, madman, we've got something you might be interested in. That's all.

1:07:42David Sims:I think he's like the ghost of Christmas future in this movie. Sure, of course. He's the fear. And Louie does not know how to clock it.

1:07:49Griffin Newman:Well, okay, fine. But it's like, yeah, he's the curdled, like he hates everything. Right. He considers himself a genius. Yes. Musical genius. And now he's the guy in the back of the car yelling at everyone else for being wrong. He's watching the world pass him by. Right. Fucking jazz snob. Yeah. One of the worst snobs. unlike ska fans well this is what I was gonna say

1:08:10David Sims:you're like 25 years from now Lewin could be the old grumpy folk singer in the back of the car complaining about the ska one musician's up front

1:08:18Griffin Newman:it's kind of what Dave Van Runk became you're sort of stuck here can I say though Garrett Hedlund he's so hot in this movie and I feel like this is the first time he'd been around Hollywood was pushing him

1:08:33David Sims:it was very much like we want this to be a guy Was this pre-Tron or post-Tron? It's post-Tron. No way. And I had always been like, oh yeah, he's fine. He's handsome.

1:08:41Griffin Newman:Why is everyone so crazy about him? But this one I was like, and he barely speaks obviously. He literally has like one line in it when he's reading poetry in the diner.

1:08:49David Sims:I love him. Or the road stop, wherever they go. No, it is. I had that exact same feeling, which was like, they've been pushing this guy so hard and he's fine. What's the deal? And then you watch him in this and you're like, I get it. He's captivating. I get it. No one else has captured this, but clearly the guy has the juice. Now he's the Tulsa King. Now he's, well, he's no. No, that's... Sly is the Tulsa King. He's beautiful. But he's on Tulsa King.

1:09:11Griffin Newman:He is beautiful. Big fan of him in general. They shoot this movie mostly in Brooklyn in the Lower East Side. The actual village, of course, as they say, is basically too noisy, like visually for them. Right. To do all the period stuff. Have you seen, you've seen the paparazzi photos from those shoots with the stuffed cat, yeah? I have seen, yes. The cat that looks like one of the Webkinz. Like, it's such... It looks like a Webkinz. Oscar Isaac and his emotional support Webkinz.

1:09:40David Sims:It is very cute. It's fantastic. They talk a lot about... I feel like when Ethan talks about his burnout and what eventually caused him to decide to cooperate.

1:09:48Griffin Newman:This was a really hard, annoying movie to make, and here is his Webkinz. Look at that. It looks like a Webkin. Yes. It's so cute. Ben, of course, is the biggest cat person in the room, I would feel. Yes. I have a cat named Pig. Wait. Cutest name for a cat ever, actually. Oh, my God. Inspired by Miss Piggy. Oh, my God. Even better. She's 17 years old. Years young. Okay, there we go. She's asthmatic. She's diabetic. No, she sounds so sweet. 17 is impressive. 17 is amazing. God bless.

1:10:19David Sims:I was just going to say that I feel like Ethan points back to the process of working with the cat on this movie as one of the things that, like, broke him. 100%. Hence the web kittens. Yeah. Yeah, truly. but he was just like, oh, it'd be fun to put a cat at the center of the movie. That kind of gives the story like a pulse of drive and you're like, oh my God, the amount of scenes that are driven by a cat needing to start one place and end up in another place. Yeah, that's hard. Have you ever worked with a cat? I don't think so. It's a fucking nightmare. No, I've worked, you know, I've only like worked with dogs and birds and stuff.

1:10:52Snakes. I've worked with snakes. You sung ballads to them. I did.

1:10:57David Sims:I did a multi-camera pilot with a cat where the cat was supposed to be a big part of it. And I genuinely think the process of working with the cat was 50 % of why the show was not picked up. That's wild. Because it was just a nightmare. They're not like trainable. That's the thing. They're so independent. And the cat handler was there and they'd be like, so like the timing is on this line, the cat needs to go from here to there. And the trainer was like, Yeah, that's not going to happen. I'll see what I can do. She'll do what she wants to do. And the producer was like, who's this fucking cat wrangler we got?

1:11:24David Sims:Like, we can't get someone better than this? And they were like, that is the best. That's the best cat wrangler. She's just being honest with you that you're never going to be able to get them to do what you want. And that's why, what's his name on, was it, is it Salem on Sabrina? Was it animatronic? Seamless. Was it automaton? I never knew that was a robot. You couldn't tell? It's basically like a broken clock is right twice a day process working with the cat on camera. Right, just shooting for a while. You did 200 takes and eventually one of them will accidentally be cut.

1:11:51Griffin Newman:I like how Salem was so busted and then they upgraded to a slightly less busted Salem. He was always funny, by the way. I always like the background, though. Like, when he leaves the scene, it is a real cat. And I kind of love that.

1:12:03David Sims:I don't want to rain on anyone's Salem parade here. I should acknowledge that Salem did just headline the Riyadh Comedy Festival. You're fucking kidding. And it was the newer puppet. It's the better one.

1:12:14Griffin Newman:And then when he walked off stage, it was a real cat. It was a real cat? They were like, everyone look over there for a second. And then when they look back, it was a real cat.

1:12:24David Sims:Funny every time. Not meant to be a joke. funniest thing on the show. Oh my God.

1:12:28Griffin Newman:Roger Deakins does not shoot this movie, guys. Their longtime cinematographer, he was busy making the sky fall. He had to make the sky fall. Let the sky fall. Please. Let it crumble. Can you? We will stand tall. We will stand tall

1:12:43David Sims:and face it all together. We have to face it all together. Here's a pitch. What if you play James Bond, the Bond girl and sing the song? So the thing is, I feel like That's like hosting

1:12:54Griffin Newman:SNL and doing musical guests. that's a lot of work yeah which people do it all the time so why not right I would love to be a Bond girl I'm just putting it out there but also but also be James Bond I know Barbara Broccoli doesn't do it anymore but girl yeah yeah it's it's Amazon now right it's Amy Pascal and David Heyman yeah come on guys David Heyman come on David Heyman he's gonna if he ever hears this he's gonna be like so I'm never working with her I think as the toast of London you should be considered yeah come on now that you are the toast of London come on an honorary citizen so Roger Deakins didn't do it no so Bruno Delbanel one of my favorite DPs who loves to shoot things like this all smoky and cloudy you know what I mean yeah the guy who shot Amelie way back when who I always have to mention completely freaked it on Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince and totally fucking freaked it on that one of the most gorgeous looking movies ever made about

1:13:49David Sims:Dumbledore and shit gorgeous franchise film but he's he's the king of making live action look like watery pastels like inky Exactly. So cool. Smudgy colors. I know the look of this movie is divisive, even amongst people who consider it a masterpiece. But obviously very, very fused with digitally in a post. Yeah, and it's muted. And people tend to not understand that just because it's not colorful doesn't mean it's not good.

1:14:13Griffin Newman:It's a movie that looks like slush. That is what they wanted. They were like winter in the village. The Free Will and Bob Dylan album covers. Like a big... Literally, yes.

1:14:22David Sims:But also New York in January, February looks white. It looks gray. It literally is gray. Yeah. Right. And this movie somehow gets it somehow gets at some ecstatic truth of what the cold feels like more than what the cold looks like. Absolutely. I love the look of this. It's shot brilliantly. It's very stylized. It got the astronom for that. Oh, good. Because the lighting in it is fantastic. Incredible. It only got two nominations. When he is sat at the Reggio waiting for Carrie Mulligan to come bring his stuff. That's the scene I always think about. And he's staring out the window. Yeah. He's beautiful.

1:14:58David Sims:Yeah. He's beautiful. He's quite beautiful. But Bruno does this. He does Buster Scruggs. And he does Macbeth. So as Deacon sort of gets caught in Mendez Land. I can't say that. He becomes... I can't. All the world's a stage. He shot the Scottish film. Macbitty. I appreciate you viewing this podcast studio as a theater. All the world's a stage. That we're cursing. That we're cursing. The Palladium Balcony. The Blank Shack offices. It's all a stage. It's all a stage. I have to go sing Don't Cry for Me. Bye, guys. You're right back to it. We're halfway through. Bruno loves stage-bound stuff, though.

1:15:32David Sims:He loves shooting on sets. He loves being able to control the light. Yeah. This is a movie where he's mostly dealing in real environments. A lot of locations. Yeah, the Lower East Side is real, unfortunately. A lot of New York street shooting, but also, like, shooting in actual tiny cramped apartments. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, you know... subway cars and still exquisite

1:15:51Griffin Newman:gorgeous Carey Mulligan is married to Mumford Mumford one of the Mumfords who's the voice I don't know how many of them Marcus there's the voice it's the voice of Mike Timlin who's his passed away um his writing and singing partner

1:16:05David Sims:but it's not him on the album it's him on the album it is it is okay oh wait I don't know about the album Art yeah but he's definitely the voice I know he's the voice I just can never remember if it's him on the phone sometimes they bring Oscar on stage and they sing fairly well together which is so cool oh that is pretty cool It rules. It rules. I've never seen it because it never happens when I'm there. So Marcus Mumford, if you're out there. I've told this story before, but my mom wanted my sister to be bilingual when she was... She made a wish? 13, 14. Okay. Well, she had failed to make my brother and I bilingual.

1:16:40David Sims:My mother is French. Okay. And so she decided to pull my sister out of school in eighth grade and immerse her in a school in France for a year. to make her bilingual, which... I'm so sorry. I would be so mad if I were your sister because I went eighth grade my last year. Yeah, really normal, emotionally and psychologically balanced year to take a girl out of the environment that she knows and plays her in a foreign country. It's also too late to make someone bilingual. Yeah, that is. That is not. You gotta do that when they're like four years older. I'm gonna say all of it was a disaster. But I went to visit them largely because it was a disaster.

1:17:13David Sims:My mom was like, five alarm fire, we need additional support. Like backup. Oh my God. And they were subletting this apartment in France. And this one fucking Mumford and Sons song was on a loop. They had an iPod and a dock, and they were playing this one song. Little Lion Man. Four straight hours every night. And like three days in, I was just like, why the fuck do you like this song so much? I cannot believe you listened to this song so many times. And my mom goes, the iPod is broken. We don't know how to change it to a different song.

1:17:45Griffin Newman:Cool.

1:17:46David Sims:And within five seconds, I identified that they just had it on repeat and hadn't fixed it. And I was like, are you telling me that for four straight months you have listened to this song? What song was it?

1:18:02David Sims:I couldn't tell you what it's called. My dear, my dear. That one. Wait. It was not your fault, but mine. I think that's it. That is Little Lion Man, isn't it?

1:18:13Griffin Newman:I think that's one of their most famous songs, right? It was like Lenny doesn't like it He's right to growl They're a little mid I love Mumford and Sons I will not sit here and listen to this

1:18:26David Sims:I bring this up only because I have a negative association with Mumford and Sons For the rest of my life because of this It felt like advanced interrogation tactics I'm That is so funny to me And I was like why wouldn't you just turn the iPod off And they were like well we love music And I was like you love listening to the same song every night

1:18:43Griffin Newman:Inside Llewyn Davis.

1:18:44David Sims:That's the end of my story.

1:18:45Griffin Newman:Inside Llewyn Davis. That was it. It's about a guy called Llewyn Davis. It's Welsh, but his mom is Italian, I believe he says. Yes. And I love that somebody says, Pablo, what are you? They call him Pablo because he is Latino.

1:19:02David Sims:I love that line. But also Bud Grossman says, what's the N stand for? I love, it's a great line. And then once again, because he's Guatemalan, says, maybe if you stay out of the sun a little bit, when he's giving him the career advice.

1:19:16Griffin Newman:Yeah. He says 18 hysterical, insane things, and then promptly has an Aaron overdose and promptly dies. The two seconds of sympathy he gives him in silence when he says his partner killed himself, and he's like, anyway, George Washington Bridge is a terrible bridge to throw yourself. Well, no, Grossman doesn't say that. No, no, John Goodman. Yes, yes, yes. Just all the amazing things got Goodman.

1:19:42David Sims:I was like, well, John Goodman's like, it's a brief performance. He's only in like six or seven minutes of the movie. And then I'm watching and I'm like, does he actually have 15 straight pages of dialogue?

1:19:51Griffin Newman:It's all gold. He comes in, attacks the rack. It's so good. But yeah, Llewyn Davis, he is a folk singer. I'm so sorry, guys. It's okay, Lenny. Lenny, it's okay. He's just practicing. You can let him, what will happen if you let him rampage? he's just gonna do this for like five minutes what are you mad about Lenny he hears people in the hallway yes he thinks he owns the blank check office he thinks he does he's the guard his official guard dog this once yeah if you live in like a busy apartment building with an animal with a dog like they will anytime someone like exits out of an elevator like you know it's insane he's crazy they know um Llewyn Davis uh his partner died it's 1961 1961.

1:20:34Griffin Newman:He released a solo album. It did not sell. The movie begins with him getting the ship beat out of him. Do you consider this a flash forward or not? I feel like there's so much debate about this in the movie. Of whether or not it's a loop. Because it is presented differently both times, but obviously it's very similar. Yeah. I think of it as two different things. Interesting. But I don't really care that much. And I don't, I'm not trying to Reddit, please calm down, like offer some definitive take on this. I like the idea that it is a loop with the mildest improvement at the end of he keeps the cat, you know, like in the house.

1:21:11Griffin Newman:He's learned a little bit.

1:21:12David Sims:I will say this, and I said some things this affected the beginning of this episode. It's a little frustrating sometimes talking about the Coen brothers.

1:21:21Griffin Newman:Right, where people are trying to solve it. Yes. Right.

1:21:23David Sims:And I think we tend not to try to be like puzzle solving movie guys. But a lot of our episodes, there's been a lot of very loud like, I cannot believe they got all of this wrong. They forgot this part of the plot. I forgot art wasn't subjective. Right. That's the thing. Forgetting plot stuff, we do that all the time. We're bad at our jobs. But the sort of like, that is a fundamental misread of the movie. There are certain things where like, we got the fucking, of course, it's not Tommy Lee Jones's dad at the end of No Country that he goes to visit. Like that's just actually on us. That's a big mistake.

1:21:58David Sims:But there's other stuff where I'm like, every time I watch these movies, I flip opinions on certain reads. I really do think the Conan movies are like that. They really do feel like dreams where you wake up and you go like, why the fuck was I doing that? Like, what does that mean? And the more I rewatch them, the changes in where you are in your life. Like, sometimes I'm like, it's absolutely two separate events. And sometimes I'm like, it's the same event from two different perspectives. And I don't think there's a definitive answer. I don't think there's a definitive answer either. Absolutely not.

1:22:29I do think they kind of, not spoon feed, but drop hints with the line about folk songs saying it's never new and it never gets old. But, you know, a folk song is repetitive. A folk song is the same, like, melody sung over and over again to different words.

1:22:49Griffin Newman:I think this is a good point. And so it's one of those where you go... This is my exact buyer, our friend Rachel. And also, if you pay attention to the way it's edited, what's a hard cut versus what's a fade? is also a very cool way to watch this film because it fades to him being back at the Gorefines the next morning and the cat.

1:23:06David Sims:Waking up with the cat on his chest. Yes. Which happens both times. Yes. And it's a fade that time. The first time it's a hard cut. Yes. And the second time it's a fade. I think that's brilliant. And those are two distinctly different events. They feel different. Unquestionably. Well, the cat wake-ups are absolutely different. Yes. And the result is different. Yes. One time he lets the cat out, one time he doesn't. I think you're right. Sorry, finish your point. No, no, I'm just saying like, there's so many ways to watch it. There's so many ways to interpret it. I do think that something that we learn as we get older is that whether it's God or the universe, you're handed the same situation over and over again to see how much you've learned.

1:23:41And I do think that the idea of this film is to, it's weirdly hopeful, despite how depressing it is, that he's going to figure it out at some point because the first step was not letting the cat out.

1:23:53David Sims:Yes, I agree with you. That is my read. It's that the multiple interpretations is the point. It isn't that one or the other is the answer. This movie is very paired, in my opinion, to a serious man in a lot of ways, where it's the sort of like tests of Job, this guy who keeps being challenged by the universe. And the point in the serious man is it really isn't this guy's fault. And the point in this movie is all of this is basically self-created and self-perpetuated by this guy. but like whether or not they're the same event, it's meaningless to him. He probably couldn't differentiate between them being separate events a month apart, a week apart, a night apart.

1:24:32David Sims:And also his takeaway would probably be the same. What is frustrating about this guy is that he isn't learning, right? And then you can look at the ending and sometimes I think, oh, he's starting to get it. And other times I think he's just disregarding this. The au revoir is like him putting an ironic distance to a thing that he should actually be processing in a deeper way. And that's mental illness, which is the other thing. It's like, very much can't tell what was a month ago, what was a week ago. It's like, that's depression. Like, 100%. And that's living in a rut. That's being an artist who's facing rejection.

1:25:08But then John Goodman has this great line where he's like, essentially making fun of him, but also reading him for filth, where he's like, oh, my life's this big pile of shit. I don't remember making this big pile of shit. Right, right. Which is like, you are the reason your life sucks. You can do something about it. And those kinds of people are the most frustrating people to deal with, where you're like, I have a solution. Do something else.

1:25:32Griffin Newman:He, right, clearly thinks, you know, maybe not the world, but the industry, the scene is against him a little bit, right? But he never rants about it or anything. There's no moment in this movie that's that on the nose. And he can't talk about the horrible thing, which is that he lost his partner. Like that's the thing where it's obviously like the mere mention or waft of it sets him off and makes sense. Like it's like that's the unsolvable riddle of like how am I supposed to get another partner? That was when I was probably at my best.

1:26:07David Sims:Which I think is why this movie is so personal and I feel like it's one of their most like overtly moving movies because it is, I think it's really activating something about these two guys who work together trying to process the theoretical tragedy of losing your other half, right? And they have obviously now at the time we're recording this been in their sabbatical, split off, side projects. But like, they didn't lose each other. No. You can't break up your brothers. Very true. Right. There's like a certain Twilight Zone nightmare scenario of like, what if they made blood simple and then one of them died?

1:26:46David Sims:Yeah. Sure, right. What the fuck would they do? Yeah. Kind of thing. But I also think watching it this time, I really started to drill down on does Lewin want to be successful? This is a big thing that in the past, I've read this sort of sense of resentment of fuck. Why is no one giving me my break? Right. And I started really like through the lens of just when does he indicate that he wants something more than what he has? And it happens so rarely. And when it does, it feels like what he wants is for someone just to create an ecosystem where he can keep doing the exact thing he's doing right now with slightly less struggle.

1:27:28David Sims:Because he's not saying that he wants a ton of money, that he wants fame, that people aren't calling him a genius, right? And he also, for how cynical he is, doesn't do a lot of why that guy and not me kind of shit. That you so often sense from guys like this. Finding an axe.

1:27:45Griffin Newman:You're right. About Bob Dylan or whoever the fuck. No, definitely not. The specter of Bob Dylan at the end of the movie, I do feel he's clocking like, oh, is something changing? I'm not this guy. What's the Troy, the character that Stark Sands plays? Yeah, he doesn't like Stark Sands. Yeah, there's a little bit of like, this is the thing that's getting Bud Grossman's attention. Like, you got to play at Bud Grossman's. Like, that's crazy. But then the Bud line of like, he connects with people. that he says about him. Well, yeah, 100%. He's a good kid. He's a good, upstanding guy. People read his goodness.

1:28:22Griffin Newman:Right. And like the, you know, the unspoken thing that Bud is saying to Lewin of like, you on the other hand seem like a moody piece of shit. And he like inadvertently, I mean, like he doesn't know he's telling him to kill himself, but he's like, you should get back together with your partner. And that like to a depressive is very much reading, you should kill yourself too. Like, absolutely. There is an easy, symbolic read of this movie in which he is literally trying to pay a fare to cross and go in the ocean. That he's like, you know, that the merchant marine are like Charon. And he's like, that's the only step left before he enters the underworld.

1:28:57Griffin Newman:Right. Like, and he's just in this purgatory where he's like, do I do that? Do I fucking get on the boat?

1:29:04David Sims:You know, the merchant marine thing is what I find very telling within this sort of focus I was giving on this viewing. Right. is like he really bristles at Stark's hands. But I think a lot of that is this has to be an act. This guy can't be for real, right? And he says, does he have a higher function when he's watching him play in the bar? He's this type of guy who wants to believe that he's operating like a samurai or something, right? That there's like an empirical code for artistic purity. And that if you are more or less ambitious than that, then you're wrong, right? He doesn't want people who are just kind of clocking in and clocking out.

1:29:42David Sims:And like this guy seems so untroubled and uncomplicated by it. And it's like, that's not enough. You need to be tortured by this. But also, if you're too mercenary, if you're too careerist, if you're too strategic, then you're not doing it for the right reasons. Right. And they keep on sort of asserting this idea that it's like you could have a home to some idea. To some degree, you seem obsessed with the idea of being unmoored, sleeping on people's couches, not needing much to get by, you know, constantly struggling to just get$10 ahead. Like, that's the thing. And I think all he ultimately wants is the idea of someone like Bud Grossman, who's a kingmaker, saying, you are good enough that I will give you just enough money to survive.

1:30:25David Sims:I will give you just enough attention to survive. I don't think he wants to be Bob Dylan, but Bob Dylan is a classic example of a guy who didn't play by the rules, right? Doesn't get along with people in an obvious way, but his genius was so undeniable that the world warps around him and goes, you do it your way and we're all going to fucking support it. I don't even think he wants that much attention. I think he's just like, can I enter a system in which I'm stuck in a loop, but a loop of comfort? That's what he wants. And the Merchant Marines thing is like, Like, okay, if Bud Gressman says no, I'll go back on the boat.

1:31:00David Sims:He's not fucking bitter about it. He's almost like, okay, it's over because even though he's lying to himself in that moment, right? I think what he's looking for is the three hots and a cot. But every home he enters is not a welcoming one besides the gore finds. He will never be happy. It's so interesting though, because if you watch the movie and focus on the times he's in somebody's home, you've got Adam Driver, who's in this tiny, tiny place. Outer. And he was also not...

1:31:31Griffin Newman:It is funny that Kylo Ren and fucking Poe Dameron lead off a Star Wars movie two years later. It's so funny. Two years later, that's happening. And it starts with them face like inch to inch apart. I certainly think this is why... Also Juilliard, by the way. Isaac. I think this is why Isaac at Star Wars, no question. Maybe. I mean, obviously that part was also weird where it was going to be small and they got bigger. Okay, no. So he's an Adam Driver. He's in Al Cody's place who's also not selling any records. That's failure. He has a home, but he's still a failure. The marriage between Jim and Gene is destined to fall apart at some point.

1:32:08Yeah. Maybe with his doing, maybe without. That's a home that's falling apart. His sister yelling at the kid. That's an unhappy home. The final home he enters is his dad in a nursing home.

1:32:19David Sims:Yeah, shitting himself. Shitting himself. He thinks he's having a moment of connection. And he's not. The double wow. That is the most Coen Brothers. going into their bag. Yeah, like looking out the window as like Oscar Isaac just like plays his heart out. Then he slowly turns his head to look at his son and you're like, oh my God, it's a cocoa moment. The music has spoken through the senility. He says wow twice and then walks out and goes, my father needs to be cleaned. It's perfect.

1:32:48Griffin Newman:When the second union guy is like, oh, how's your dad? He's great. He's been asking after you. Also the You can't join the military What because I'm a communist? And then the guy says He must spawn something in Russian It's the Yeah the word for like A fellow socialist I forget what he's saying And he goes never mind

1:33:06David Sims:That first guy too He goes You're not Hugh Davis' kid Are you? And he goes Why not? Why not? Why not? It's so good It's so good And it really is This movie The humor really is In a lot of the edit As is with a lot of Coen Brothers films, like their editing is really what makes, their writing is funny on paper, but when it's cut so well, it's fucking fantastic. Well, because so often the punchline is like the repetition of these things in different environments, in different people, in these very short scenes, right? Where, you know, him asking Al Cody, how's your place? It's a dump. Do you have a couch?

1:33:46David Sims:Hard cut to taking stuff out of the back of Al Cody's car.

1:33:50Griffin Newman:Yeah. The Gorefines, though. This is the, right, the warmest home he's brought into. Do you think, what's his, you know, do you think Mike is their son?

1:34:00David Sims:I said, fundamentally, Mike is not a gore fine.

1:34:02Griffin Newman:Right, but you were, were you kidding? I couldn't tell.

1:34:05David Sims:No, I wasn't. I think he's not. Right, right. It's like that, that I actually think is a misread of the movie. I think it is interesting. Like, I get why people flock to that because her reaction is so extreme.

1:34:19Griffin Newman:It's not just that. To me, the read of that is like, Every time he's going in there, there's a bit of a strain to how they're behaving. Like the way he answers both times, she's making her famous Moussaka. They always have friends there. It feels a little like they are also not looking something in the face. That's why I can see the reading of like... And also, he wouldn't use the stage name Mike Gorefine. He would think of a better stage name. I agree with that. You know what I mean?

1:34:45David Sims:Mike Timlin.

1:34:47Griffin Newman:He's come up with like a folk singer name, right?

1:34:50David Sims:Here is my read on that.

1:34:51Griffin Newman:But then it's almost, if he is their son, like then it's kind of crazy that he yells at them because it's their son who died. You know what I mean? Now, Llewyn Davis is a bit of a, you know, a bit of a caustic fella.

1:35:02David Sims:I think the number one reason I think he is not agorifying is in the father's, I should say, the husband's response. The great Ethan Phillips. Yes. Neelix himself. Yes. Not the father, but the husband. That he goes like, hey, look, we're all grieving in our own ways. Right.

1:35:19Griffin Newman:Right. Which is great. I mean, like the way they let him back in is lovely.

1:35:23David Sims:If it was his son.

1:35:25Griffin Newman:It feels a little crazy.

1:35:26David Sims:He would either be more emotional or he'd be angrier at Lewin. It would be Bill Irwin and Rachel getting married. I think it is him. Exactly. I think it is him correcting for his wife kind of making it about her. Great Robin Barlet. Yes. She's so great in this movie. Where is his scrotum? It's tight to what you're saying of like, this is the only functional home he's allowed in.

1:35:49Griffin Newman:Right? Yeah. And they're like, you know, again, if you're reading them not as Mike's parents, like they're just like patrons of folk music who love it. And they're like, you know, they are crunchy Upper West Side guys.

1:35:57David Sims:They are crunchy liberal Jews who have become upper class or, you know, upper middle class. Right. And feel the need to become patrons of the arts and support the people doing the real work. Right. And I think to him, there's something unseemly about that, that he doesn't want to be like a court jester. Right. that he doesn't want to be teasing the performing monkey. As somebody who like grew up as like the singer. Right. Even though that was the way Rachel sing for everyone. And that's the way you make money and that's the way you put food on your table and pay rent. You're like, I'm not, it's not, I'm not a circus animal.

1:36:34This is not my party trick. This is my job. So it's like one of those scenes that I really do get but I do have to skip it when I watch it sometimes because her reaction always makes me so sad. They will give him

1:36:44David Sims:the free home with nothing in return but there's also the expectation of like, you belong to the kingdom now, right? Like he owes them something whether or not they're going to ask him to sing at every dinner. There is some unspoken sense of singing for your supper because there are people who get off on the idea that they're patrons of the arts and they are supporting the people doing the radical work while they've settled into something more comfortable. And I think the idea that he is being commodified in that way, even if they ask nothing of him, even if they are the most accepting and the most kind of like emotionally engaged with him, pisses him off.

1:37:15David Sims:Yeah, 100%. I also think her turning Mike's death into something that she has to grieve pisses him off because he wants that to be his. Unless she's his mom. Which is why I think she's not his mom. Ben, you seem to disagree.

1:37:28Griffin Newman:Oh, no, no. I was going to more just add it. I really feel for him in that I think they're parading him around. I mean, it's cool that they're friends with this guy or whatever. I think they're, yes, giving him a place to stay, but there's something gross about it, especially even with the fact that you keep seeing different friends at these dinner parties and it feels very established that like he and these other musicians are always around and they're always like little like guest performers

1:37:57David Sims:at these dinners. Yeah. These salons, these curated interesting minds things. And it feels like there's like a petting zoo element of like we brought a guy with a camera to like look at you, you know?

1:38:08Griffin Newman:And he's living this life of struggle and they have like... I do like the big bearded guy. They have the comfort of academia. Right. But they've decided to go that route. And I think it would piss anyone off to be prated that way.

1:38:20David Sims:That's the part of him that doesn't want success. He wants to find a comfortable middle where he can stay in a loop. What doesn't piss him off, though? Everything. I'm saying, what makes him happy? Nothing. Yeah. He's fundamentally an unhappy person. The most content you see him is his very last singing, fare thee well without Mike.

1:38:38Griffin Newman:Sometimes you see the spirit move through him in a way that's more comforting. but obviously when he's performing for Bud or whatever, it's so powerful, but it's angry and it's sad. You know, it's not. Yeah, he picks the death of Queen Jane to sing to like the most important audition of his life.

1:38:54David Sims:Such an insane decision. Yeah. But this is a guy who thinks... But it feels like a Llewyn Davis decision. It is a Llewyn Davis decision, but you think it's such an interesting moment to then see how free and beautiful he sounds singing Dink's song at the very end of the...

1:39:06Griffin Newman:Right. At the very end of the movie. Because he's making that decision himself. Yeah. Like that it's like... rather than, you know, doing it in front of the Gorefines and then she joins in doing Mike's part where it's like, you know, now it's like, here's a new take on this song.

1:39:22David Sims:And when he sings it in front of the Gorefines, he's singing like his part of a duet. Yes, he's not doing that. It is missing something. When he sings it at the end, he has finally found the way to sing it as a solo performer. I think like part of his samurai code, though, is like, I only want to borrow money from people who don't have money to give me, right? I only want to stay on a couch of someone who doesn't have enough room. Like, the idea that the gore finds, like, the cup overfloweth makes it feel, like, dirty to him. And how much they are attentive. It makes him feel more like a charity case.

1:39:52David Sims:Have you watched Star Trek Voyager?

1:39:54Griffin Newman:No. I know he plays an alien doctor. No, that's the thing I just wanted for one second to say. He plays the character of Neelix on Star Trek Voyager. Now, of course, Star Trek Voyager is about a spaceship that gets flung to the other side of the galaxy, right? So they're lost, right? And so there's sort of a makeshift crew that's the point of Star Trek Voyager they've got a captain the doctor is the hologram is of course Robert Picardo of course your favorite yes you know they pick up a sexy Borg lady they've got but then there's also Neelix played by Ethan Phillips who's he? he's like a weirdo they find okay he's just like a guy he's like an alien they meet from over there and he's kind of like I kind of know the lay of the land around here if you want me to like hang out and they're like okay what do you do and he's like I can cook and so he's the cook but that's it's just so weird There's no Star Trek character like it

1:40:42David Sims:His design is really good His design's really cool

1:40:44Griffin Newman:He's got these crazy spots And like this weird sort of tufty hair And it must have been such a pain To put it on every day But every episode that he's a part of Janeway's like Hey Neelix, what's up? There he is Yeah And Neelix is like I'm trying to make like Sort of scrambled eggs And she's like Jesus fucking I'll see you later Like everyone is annoyed by it Anyway, I always love to see him I think he's really good in this movie As is Robin Bartlett Everyone is good Everyone's doing the one scene performance. Alex Karpovsky, funny for a second. Max Casella, such a good slime ball.

1:41:17David Sims:Pin and Casella, I need to talk about him. But there is something in, you know, this kind of person. They're not bad people to Gore finds, right? No, not at all. They're just a little annoying. They're a little annoying. And they also, like, basically, they want to launder their sense that they've sold out and have gotten comfortable and are no longer, like, skin in the game, right? And I think her singing along with him is like an overly personal thing to do that she feels the need to do because she feels some ownership of the music to show how much she gets it. Performative grief. Exactly. Yeah.

1:41:53David Sims:Which is why her husband makes that apology of like we're all grieving in our own ways. And to him, the insult is like, you don't need to grieve at the same level that I do. You're a guy who brought him over for dinner and let him sleep on your couch. He was my partner. My life will never recover. But for him, it's just like he basically wants to figure out a way to live the exact life he's living with 5 % less difficulty. And he keeps thinking, if I could just solve these two issues, I'd be happy. And he can solve the two issues and he's not happy. Ten new issues emerge and he fucks all of them up.

1:42:32Griffin Newman:But there's also stuff like he needs to pay for an abortion for Carrie Mulligan and her banks, her beautiful people. And her bangs. He goes to the clinic and they're like, no, it's fine. You're paid up from the last fucking abortion you paid for that she decided not to do. She carried to terms. Yes. And like, it's just the kind of like, right, exactly. All around time, he goes to the merchant marine and they're like, yeah, you owe us some money. You know, it's like he just has these tiny little balances up and down that he can never quite balance out. And if he balanced them out, he'd be great.

1:43:05Griffin Newman:No. No, he never would. Exactly. He goes and records the fucking novelty song and they're like, do you want royalties or the paycheck? And he's like, what the fucking pay? I need money. Give him the paycheck. And then at the end of the movie, they're like, that song, by the way, is going to make so much money. He's like,

1:43:20David Sims:it's such a good Cohen's judgment that I kept being like, right, does the song come on the radio when he's on the road trip? Does he have to hear it be a hit? No, it's that the Gore finds there like, that song's going to be a hit. You never see him face the success of the song. You see him face the idea of, you probably fucked up.

1:43:39Griffin Newman:It would be too on the nose if he was walking around town and there's like posters of Al Cody or whatever. But like, why does he take the money? He needs it for the fucking abortion. I know, it's like he's always trying to pay the piper and then there's another piper. It's so well done to have sympathy for being a fuck up. Because the thing is too, the other element to this is that his manager is this old inept man who he'll never get payment from. So he also just knows that like, Rachel, I think you should dump your manager and switch to Mel. I love Mel. I think Mel is going to take you places.

1:44:12And you know what? There's so many Mel's on the Lower East Side.

1:44:14Griffin Newman:I was about to say, I mean, it would be, yeah. It's Mel and whoever is his clerk. She's so funny. Who just comes out with the box. I got it. You got it. Yeah, I got it. So good. Like that moment where he's like, has Buck Grossman called? And she goes and lifts up her hands. He's like, and she's like, no, I meant to tell you we're throwing out your records. Yeah. And goes and gets the fuck.

1:44:38David Sims:But let's also call out, Mel is like, I can't give you money, but I can give you the jacket. And Lewin hates the idea that he's seen as a charity case that needs the jacket. And then we watch the entire movie him suffer from the lack of the coat. And the way that they, and I'm saying the way they depict the cold, even with like the shot of his feet at the diner. Oh my God. With his wet socks. It is so visceral, that feeling of my entire foot is wet. I'm going to take my wet sock out of my wet shoe. Yeah. And rub them against each other to just try to make it some warmth. 1 % warmer. But can I say, like, the whole movie is kind of summarized in the one shot of him walking through the snow when there's clearly a snowless patch next to him.

1:45:17Yes. Yes. It's brilliant.

1:45:19David Sims:I don't need your coat. I don't need your coat, but I'm going to walk in five feet of snow. Right. And then be upset about the problem, but also not complain about it to anyone because I like the idea that I'm comfortable with the suffering. I do now think,

1:45:31Griffin Newman:now that you're saying, like, yes, he does not actively complain about anyone, but every man he meets in this movie, you do feel him bristling. Yeah. So it's like Justin Timberlake, he's like, I hate this performative nice husband man, right? Who's like, you know, good at everything he does. He doesn't like Adam Driver for being a buffoon, really.

1:45:48David Sims:And to him, like a fake. It's a phony circus act. Exactly, right, right.

1:45:53Griffin Newman:He's gonna change his name. Stark Sand, he's like, you're a disgusting square to me. You know, he won't say it aloud, but like... The struggle is part of it. How can you be this untroubled and make great music? It's like the famous Mark Maron episode where he interviews Nick Kroll, which I think about all the time, where Mark Maron's just like, your childhood was normal. I hate it. And Nick Kroll's like, I'm sorry I had a happy childhood. Yeah.

1:46:14David Sims:But this character's very Marony and the last episode. Yeah, he's very Marony.

1:46:19Griffin Newman:Because you're like, you're talented. I get it. And things just aren't quite lining up for you. Maybe Lewin should get a podcast. That's the answer. The thing is, he would. If this movie were made right now, he would have a podcast. And he'd be like, do you think Bud Grossman likes me? I auditioned for him, one.

1:46:34David Sims:He would not be enough of a go-getter to start a podcast. If he did, he'd abandon after three episodes. He would be so active in the comments. Llewyn Davis would be a comment. He's burning up the AV club. But the penultimate WTF, the solo Maren monologue one, I feel like was so emotionally affecting and was, I don't know if you've listened to it, but it was basically Maren talking about how the podcast got him to break the Llewyn Davis cycle. Yes, very much so. That he was this guy for 20 years. And that through the act of interviewing people, which started out as a career move, but like taught him empathy and understanding and comparing other people's careers that he like got out of this.

1:47:14David Sims:And I just think, and Maren talks about this, that throughout his 20s and his 30s and into his early 40s, that he always had this attitude of like, why this fucking guy? And Llewyn Davis does not do that once in the movie. I agree with you that he bristles with people, but like every other -

1:47:29Griffin Newman:He never rants, really. He never rants.

1:47:32David Sims:And every other version of a movie like this with a guy like this who's stuck in the middle is angry at the other people for how they're perceived.

1:47:40Griffin Newman:The one person he takes it out on is the nice lady with the auto art. Who's the most legit thing. Right, exactly. It's the most undeserving of being heckled. She's like, I've literally never performed in New York before. He's being so mean.

1:47:54David Sims:In that Del Toro interview, they were like, that was one of her most complete ideas. He's being crude. In the movie, if this guy comes face to face with the real thing, he not only doesn't know what to make of it, but he's going to be an asshole. And they said the other like really complete idea that they write their scripts, they start out and then they go like, what happens in the next scene? What happens in the next scene? They don't map out the plot in advance by and large, unless they're doing really naughty kind of noir stuff. And so they're like surprised as things are going along as they develop them.

1:48:24David Sims:And they said, a complete idea for us that we never considered the alternative is that he's going to drive past Akron and not pull off the side of the road. Just notice it. Right. That the entire idea for the movie is there's no scenario we can imagine going there. And he said, if we do the thought experiment of he drives off and he knocks on the door, that's a bad scene from a bad movie. I don't want to see that, right? The complete idea is you look at this glowing CGI town, right? It looks magical. It looks like fucking Potter's. It's literally the Polar Express. Right. Pulls into it. Yes, me too.

1:48:58David Sims:Yes. This guy has no fucking home. And there's literally a family ready to go right there. His two-year-old son. His two-year-old baby. That he's never met before. That he's never met. He didn't know existed until 30 minutes before. I think the movie brilliantly tricks you because you're like, well, the shitty move is that this guy pulled up on the side of the road and said, I'm really tired. I could use some sleep. Can you drive me back to New Jersey? And you think he's going to be selfish and take the car to Akron and fuck this guy over because he needs to meet his child. And instead, he doesn't even do that.

1:49:32David Sims:He just looks at the sign. He just looks at it and keeps on fucking driving and hits a cat. The wrong cat that he took off the streets of New York City. Right. And look, he shows up at her door. She probably slaps him in the face, right? She apologizes for not telling him that he didn't get, she didn't get the abortion, but also goes like, by the way, you're a fucking asshole and I don't want you in my kid's life. But even still, that gives him a sense of closure and processing that he's actively avoiding. And there are decisions like, what I was saying, John Goodman is like the ghost of Christmas future.

1:50:03David Sims:Not only does he not know how to not become that guy, he refuses to acknowledge that this guy is a version of what he could become. He leaves him on the side of the road. Yeah, like probably dead. In his role. Yeah, probably gonna die.

1:50:16Griffin Newman:It's not a great situation. In his defense, I'm not sure what he should do at that point. I agree. It's a little bit of a tough...

1:50:22David Sims:But his response almost every time is, what am I supposed to do? I'm walking away. Yeah. I don't know what to do here. Lewin is the cat. Lewin is the cat. Because the cat doesn't actually get hit is the crazy thing. He checks the car. There's nothing. There's no sign of a cat having been hit. The cat moves on.

1:50:39Griffin Newman:Your point about the Appalachian performer and like how he's so rude to her and yet she's the most legit. She's literally what folk music is. She is the real thing. Here is a person from a faraway place who is performing very regionally specific music. Who learned music as it was like passed down. Right. It's like an oral tradition. A hundred percent. And there's something too about like his like whole like, you know, samurai code authenticity. and yet the music that he plays is traditional music that someone else wrote. That he's trying to put his own spin on. He should be doing sea shanties because he was a merchant marine guy.

1:51:19Griffin Newman:Maybe he should do sea shanties. Could have been cool. But then with the Dylan of it all too, like what Dylan really did, right, is he was the first one to be like, why don't we just take this music form and write original music?

1:51:30David Sims:And also he was a total sponge.

1:51:33Griffin Newman:He was taking in everything and spitting out everything and mixing shit together. And people are like, what the fuck's your deal? And he's like, I don't know. So when Grossman's like, I don't see money here. I mean, that's the thing is, he's so cutting, but it's kind of true. He is correct. What does Llewyn want to do here? What is the success here? I don't think he actually, you're right.

1:51:54David Sims:He doesn't really have a thing in mind. Dylan had shit to say. Llewyn Davis does not. Or if he does, he's not saying it, right? He just wants to impress people with his skill at the standards, right? Right. And so Bud Grossman, like he says, there's not a lot of money here, which is the most cutting shit in the world. And then he follows up by saying a bunch of things that are good about him, even when some of them are backhanded, where he's like, you are talented. But like, what makes you different than 800 other guys I see every week? And he's like, could you be a Peter? Could you be a Paul?

1:52:24David Sims:He gives him a path. He does. He goes, stay out of the sun. Cut that into a goatee. You could be the third guy. That's a career. And then you can go to fucking poppies and play your own shit wherever you want. But that's the version of it. where that funds your lifestyle. And he immediately goes like, no, not happening.

1:52:40Griffin Newman:Well, he won't have a partner again. He can't enter into that kind of emotional contract. He can't open himself up to the possible pain. Right. And that's the difference between him and the Gorefines, where they have performative grief and he has anticipatory grief.

1:52:57David Sims:Yes, yes. And Lenny is also really upset. Lenny's grieving. So sorry. But don't you think if Bud Grossman had said to him in that moment, I got an idea. I got a songwriter who can't sing or play a lick. Would you perform his material? Right. He would go, no, I don't do other people's songs. Right? If Bud Grossman offered 10 other versions of here's my pitch for how to sell you that weren't forcing him to be part of a duo or a trio again, he still would bristle at it. The idea is that he wants someone to go, yup, I get you. Move here. Live above the venue. perform here every night. I pay you a stipend.

1:53:37David Sims:It's the version of the merchant. It's three hots and a con. You don't need to get more or less ambitious than you are right now.

1:53:44Griffin Newman:What if Bud was like, do you want to be my toothbrush? He'd say yes, because this guy's full of bristles. He's bristling. Oh, my God. Rachel, don't leave. What are you talking about? Why are you opening the door? David's holding a baseball card? I have my Pete Alonso card here. Oh, wow. My boy Pete. Sorry. That's him. Whatever. my daddy built Yankee Stadium what was that my daddy built Yankee Stadium is your daddy Babe Ruth no we were chatting before you did your dad work on the construction my dad actually did work on the construction of the new Yankee Stadium when I was a kid with his bare hands with his bare hands this is baby Joe from Superman sorry I'm reaching to all my comfort objects have you seen Superman guys I have that's good it's fine

1:54:26David Sims:it's good you'd enjoy it you've not seen it out of loyalty to DJ Katrona you're one true Superman Well, that's the thing. You know me and my love of DJ as Clark Kent. But it's also that I was doing Evita. I just simply... I saw Sinners and then I went back into my tunnel. So then when I came out, I could only see what was in theaters after I came out. And by the way, guys, this is the only reason I keep on turning down Broadway musicals. They're begging me and I go, I can't miss these movies. What's the last offer you got on a Broadway musical? Oh my God. Death Becomes Her. They wanted me to play both.

1:54:58David Sims:And I said, the movies I'll miss. I can't.

1:55:01Griffin Newman:You said I can do it.

1:55:02David Sims:I could do it. I could. I could do it in my sleep and I have excess energy left over. What role on Broadway would you fit best? You know the one it's off Broadway. The one I want to do to see more. Yeah, of course. I, every year ago, is this the year I... I've given you sunshine. I hire a vocal coach and try to figure out if I could do it. Please don't do it. I mean, you can't if you want. No, he should, he should. I'll be your Audrey. It'll be so fun. Here we go. We've got a contract.

1:55:29Griffin Newman:I mean, if you hit these tales, you're going to go far.

1:55:32David Sims:I'm just imagining the producers of Little Shop being like, it's non-negotiable. We want Zegler so bad. We have to take Newman? Jesus fucking Christ. What if you were like Hermes in Hadestown? Things set on podcasts are binding? You could totally be in Hadestown. I will say the Christopher Seiber part in Death Becomes Her is really fun. Yeah, but nobody beats him. Nobody beats Christopher. I love Chris Seiber so much. He's the god. I agree. He is a fucking legend. but because I have seen him do such insanely technically complicated things on stage, I thought the performance was going to level up to a thing I could not possibly ever consider doing.

1:56:09David Sims:Right. Like his fucking Lord Farquaad on his knees dance. On his knees the whole time? Or I saw his Mrs. Trunchbull and Matilda where he was amazing. I was like... Do you think he feels like Death Becomes Her is a nice break? It does feel like it. Because like, yeah. Because Jennifer Samard and...

1:56:24Griffin Newman:Are you going to see him in Batboy? Oh my God. He's doing Batboy at an encor. He's playing the Reverend. I assume so. That's exciting. I love encores.

1:56:33David Sims:He is phenomenal in Death But Comes Here but it does feel like a little bit of a princess part where I think he's like they get to do the crazy stuff. I agree. Have you seen it yet? I haven't. I saw it recently. I just feel the need to acknowledge this because we covered Death But Comes Here on this. Paul Tazwell costumes. That show is a tremendous amount of fun. Eric Winterling built them. They're just incredible pieces of costumes. It is an astonishing production. It is like impeccably staged in ways where the scenes are introduced. I'm like, I don't know how you pull this scene off. Fuck yeah.

1:57:03David Sims:Like knowing the movie where you're like, there's no way to translate this right now. Beyond even the kind of like magic. Like the Beetlejuice stuff that's been done. Yeah. There is just, it is incredibly well conceived. You can't put a hole in a woman's stomach. And they do.

1:57:17Griffin Newman:They do. Don't say Beetlejuice one more time. I won't. Okay. I could play Lydia. Sure. Hey, mom. I've never seen Beatles or some musicals

1:57:26David Sims:No, the only one I would do is Little Shop Yeah, Little Shop

1:57:30Griffin Newman:It does feel like that's never gonna close too It's really crushing

1:57:33David Sims:Yeah

1:57:34Griffin Newman:It's a little

1:57:35David Sims:Yeah, and unfortunately there's no shortage of Seymour's all the most handsome men on planet Earth He's above 6 '3", are lining up to play Seymour. It's going great. Other things I want to talk about. Justin Timberlake, who I have bristled at. Just crazy that he's in maybe the two best movies of the decade. That's all. Yeah. I know. This is Social Network. This is this period where it felt like he was like, I want to make a serious job at being an actor. Right. We're going to work with really serious guys. And he's not bad in it. He gets the job done in this movie. And he's really good in Social Network.

1:58:09David Sims:and then he was like, great, thank you. I'll go be a movie star now. And everyone's like, Justin. No. You had it. You got to be in Shrek the third. You have enough. The three best movies of the decade. Honestly. That there was this feeling of like, don't do in time. Don't do friends with benefits. Don't do runner, runner. This isn't what we want. Runner, runner. Oh my God. What if time was money? This. That was that movie. And social networks are like working with the best directors alive who are using your energy in such smart ways. I think he's really, really good.

1:58:47Griffin Newman:He's good in this. I mean, he's also just I think it's a it's a very clever piece of casting to, you know, have such an established pop star, you know, play someone that Lewin would be chafing against. I mean, it was the era of that, wasn't it, though? Like Adam Levine doing Begin Again and other films, you know.

1:59:03David Sims:But he like really underplays this. I mean, the moment that I think he really nails is when Lewin goes, who wrote this shit? And he takes the two seconds before saying me. Right. And he's like, how defensive am I going to be in this response?

1:59:16Griffin Newman:Given that I am eight levels above you in status at this point anyway.

1:59:20David Sims:But yet you can tell that he kind of looks up to Lewin creatively. Absolutely. He knows Lewin is for real. It's the magic of guys like this where even when they're shooting themselves in the foot and like everyone else is lapping them, they still look at them and they're like, but I want this guy's approval. Yeah. I want to be like him. And more than anything, I don't want his judgment. Right. I don't want him to feel like I'm part of the problem. It's, yes. I want to call out some other cast people. I need to pull this name quickly. Jerry Goldsmith. Jerry Goldsmith. Is Mel. No, I'm sorry. His name is.

1:59:53David Sims:Not Jerry Goldsmith. That's a famous composer. I was going to say, Jerry Goldsmith is. His name is. Thank you. Jerry Grayson, who I worked with on. But we're the gonzo. Oh, sure. He played the ornery old diner owner. Oh. I spent a lot of time with this guy. Is he lovely? He passed away like months before this movie came out. This is his final performance. He was... It's a great final performance. Absolutely. It's really fantastic. It's incredible. Yeah. He was an ordinary old character actor who started out as part of a duo act. He kind of had his own like Martin and Lewis thing. They played in Vegas.

2:00:28David Sims:He was a little bit of a like Llewyn Davis of... Of his generation. comedy in the kind of like Rat Pack Club era. And then he transitioned to being a really good character actor. He did Death of a Salesman on Broadway and had a heart attack during intermission. This is his famous story. He finally died of heart disease. But May 1st, 1995, a heart attack brings real drama to Broadway. He died, they brought him back to life, and he was back on in the second act. You're fucking joking. I'm not joking you. Do you think he was the one who was like, I have to go on stage? Yeah. Yeah, I imagine. I feel that way, too.

2:01:09David Sims:And the previously mentioned Sam Rougal, one of my best friends, I brought him to this was like the first movie I was ever in back when I was an actor. And I brought him to the wrap party and Sam got like buttonholed by Jerry Grayson, who monologued him for like an hour. And Sam was in college in a film course. And he was like, I have to make a documentary about someone. Do you think Jerry would let us do it? and we went over to Jerry's apartment and just filmed Jerry talking for like five hours. He lived in like Tracy Letts' basement. He had an apartment that was just like 20 ,000 Blu-rays and every photo of every show he did when he was like 25 going, look at how gorgeous I was.

2:01:45David Sims:And then we go see Lou and Davis together and we're like, oh my God, Jerry Grayson. It's the part his whole career's been building up to. And then we realized after walking out of the movie that he had died. But he's so fucking good in this and it felt like a beautiful capper to his career. Him saying, get the fuck out of my office is a great line read. Yes. It's brilliant. He's brilliant. I'll say this too. He died with a full head of hair. The guy had great jeans. He shaved it for this. No way! Oh, that's really cool. Because in my head, I picture him as this bald guy. Beautiful, beautiful. Not a rug, beautiful bouffant.

2:02:17David Sims:Yeah. Anyone else you want to shout out? His secretary. It's brilliant. It's so funny. Was, let me get her credits here as well. Yeah, she seems like someone who would be a legend. She had snuck in. She's one of these people. Her name was Sylvia Cotters. She's one of these people who basically didn't hit until she was 65. Love those stories. And then was in like, she's in Witness. She's the tourist with the camera that Harrison Ford threatens to punch. Paul Giamatti yells at her in a checkout line in American Splendor. Sure. She fights the Predator with a broom in Predator 2. Good. City Hall, Crimes and Misses' demeanors, like this, obviously.

2:03:00David Sims:She's like a classic, the lead of your movie yells at her for one scene kind of thing. But she basically had two careers. For 30 years, she was Philadelphia's director of special events. And she did like the centennial, the bicentennial and all the sorts of things. The Liberty Bell. She worked with like seven presidents. She cracked the Liberty Bell? She cracked it herself. That's crazy. It was just pissed off. I never knew that it was her. She didn't look where she was going. No, she didn't like the way it was looking at her. She hit it with a golf club. But she died shortly after this as well.

2:03:36David Sims:It was one of her last performances. Oh, man. But yeah, just like lived a great life kind of supporting the arts and then finally like made it as a character actor. That's so funny. When she was like 60 and was on fire until 87. The two of them really do have such a funny rapport in that office scene.

2:03:52Griffin Newman:Lenny, this is your space. Yeah. Get all over it. It's your podcast now. Lenny's just having a time. Does Lenny have any podcast ideas? Does he want to pitch to us? Probably like chicken.

2:04:02David Sims:Okay. Interesting. Interesting. What's the format? Chicken and open running in a field. Okay. So we have someone run after Lenny with a microphone in a field with a chicken. With chicken. And record what happens between the two of them. Yeah, but the chicken can't be spiced or salted. Okay. It just has to be boiled to death. Tricky diet.

2:04:20Griffin Newman:Tricky diet. Yeah. Are we thinking audio only or video? No, that's a video. You have to have video. I mean, have you seen him? He's gorgeous. The man is made for video. He's so beautiful. Yeah, he's Lenny the Wonder Dog. And it's the kind of content that should be up on Netflix.

2:04:33David Sims:Can we buy the Lenny the Wonder Dog rights? Reboot it. I feel like if we talked to Oscar. Yes. And we said, look. Fartman will return. Well, the twist is, gender swap. You play Fartman. Oscar plays someone else. It's like a sleuth thing where now he's returning in a different role. Yeah, he's a Doctor Doom. That's the move. That's the move. He's Doctor Doom. And actually, he will be Moon Knight and Apocalypse as well. Can Moon Knight be in Lenny the Wonder Dog with Rachel as Detective Fartman? Both of them. Mrs. Fartman. His twin, but all three of them triplets now. Yeah. Good. Oi, oi. That's him being Moon Knight.

2:05:11Oi, oi, oi.

2:05:12David Sims:I'm just gonna keep running through moments I want to call out because this is a movie of moments. Go ahead. Go ahead. In the Bud Grossman thing, when he gets his performance moment, Right. He already bombs the joke of asking for the$5 for the record. Hysterical. Right. And then the guy's like, no, I'm actually getting tested. You're fucking here. You have to play for me. He's unprepared. Right. He goes, here's stage. And Bud goes, not here. They're in an office. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. But still, they're not on stage. They're performing in the audience with the overturned chairs on the tables.

2:05:41David Sims:Beautiful scene. And F. Murray Abraham, I feel like this is sort of at the beginning of his like renaissance period because Grand Budapest is the following year. So good. It feels like he was sort of rediscovered after being dormant for a while. He, of course, did Ethan's Almost an Evening, his off-Broadway show, many years ago. And that felt like it was kind of in a fallow period for him. So I think Ethan's always been like a very big supporter of his. But he's doing this kind of like Sphinx-like look of intensity, of active listening while Lewin's performing. And even though he has chosen the absolute worst song to audition with, he is like crushing it, right?

2:06:19David Sims:Sure. He's giving it his all. It's just a bad strategic move. And there's a moment where he looks up and makes direct eye contact with Bud. And Bud seems to be, like, very deeply affected. What he reads is deeply affected by his performance. And Lewin starts putting English on it. Where the last, like, 30 seconds of the song, he starts hamming it up. Like, he's making swoony aisles, and he smirks at him. You know, and he's just sort of like, I got him in my crosshairs. Here's the moment where I go in for the kill. And then the absolute deflation of. I don't see a lot of money here.

2:06:52Griffin Newman:Which, of course, is a cruel thing to say in a way. But he's just laying it out kind of plainly. It means you're not good. It's more I don't as a commercial agent for musicians understand how I would make money.

2:07:05David Sims:But also that his biggest note which is true is you don't connect with the audience. You don't let people in. And in that moment, Lewin's like, oh, now I'm going to let him in. That he's doing this very kind of like phony, schmoozy charisma thing at the end of the song to try to draw the guy in. Right. He's right through that. Right. He's like, you don't have it. You don't you don't have the thing that speaks to people. You're a good musician. And it's because it's he's unresolved as a person. Right. Right. And I think there are people like Bob Dylan, say, right, who are kind of like unresolved and don't operate by the rules of society.

2:07:40David Sims:But yet they cannot help but communicate something that means something to other people. And those types of people drive the people like Llewyn Davis insane because they're not able to point to them and go like, yeah, but that guy sold out. That guy's being palatable. That guy plays the game, right? That's how he wants to be received as just like, we're taking you as you are. And yeah, I mean, it's like the beauty of the movie ending with him literally walking out on Bob Dylan playing because the guy's about to beat the shit out of him and the guy's about to beat the shit out of him because he doesn't know how to process his emotions at Hoppy telling him that he also slept with Carey Mulligan where he is possessive of her even though he's an asshole.

2:08:21David Sims:And he is not her boyfriend. Right. Or husband. Or husband. Right. And in that final scene where they actually have chemistry together. And he wasn't a member of NSYNC. He wants to believe. He never was. He was never an NSYNC. Yes. In Pop, their best song. But he clearly wants to believe that in her mind, it's like, Luwin's the great love of my life and unfortunately, I can't ever be with him. Right? That I'm the only person she keeps on her husband with. But he does want to be able. He never wants to settle down with her. He wants the idea that she wants him more than her boring husband. And the idea that she would sleep with someone else, even though the implication is perhaps she slept with him again recently, specifically to get Lou in stage time, because she feels bad for him, pisses him off so much that his rage gets misdirected at the most genuine folk act in the entire movie, which then leads to the next night, him missing the guy who will define folk music in America for the next century, forever?

2:09:17David Sims:and the idea, it's like, I got you on stage the night The Times is there, and you're like, great news. The Times is going to write about the guy who went on right after you. The moment Dylan goes on stage, everything before that becomes a footnote in the book. It becomes the prologue to what actually mattered. And they write about that moment in this really great book by David Hadjou called Positively Fourth Street, which is about, like, Joan Baez. Is it Carlos Farinha? Mimi Farinha? And Bob Dylan? and they talk about like that first night and how absolutely no other act that night mattered. The first time Bob Dylan was ever reviewed by the Times.

2:09:54And it wasn't, they weren't necessarily good reviews. They, they, they, sorry, Richard Fadina. Thank you. They, they speak of him as if his voice, I think they say like a machete through metal, like sheet metal. They like say that about his voice, but it still made such an impact. It was so special.

2:10:12David Sims:Undeniable. Different. Something has happened here and everything's been leading up to this. He's kind of like a complete unknown to my friend. He's hard to know. Oh, man. I remember you. Complete unknown. Say that again. A complete unknown. I think there's a movie here. There's something.

2:10:26Griffin Newman:Lenny, don't growl at me. Jesus. No, Lenny knows that I also auditioned for that. Oh, well. You would have been good. Hey, thanks. Monica was amazing. She's phenomenal. She's fucking amazing.

2:10:36David Sims:I was kind of dreading that movie because I love Llewyn Davis so much. And I remember you seeing it and telling me the thing that's kind of miraculous about it is it actually works as a companion piece. Absolutely. Yeah, 100%.

2:10:46Griffin Newman:Because that movie is about, I mean, not to get too much on it, but it's about Dylan, you know, is the opposite of Lewin. He's charmed in this way that no one can understand. Where everyone's like, what's your deal? And it's like, and they're like, what the fuck? And he's like, I'm famous, I guess. It all lines up for him. Like people like pave the road underneath his feet. Right. And then anytime anyone's like, so what you do is great, keep doing it. He's like, gonna do something else, you know? And they're like, what the fuck? But it's, you know,

2:11:13David Sims:That movie's refusal to pathologize him is what is smart about it that it views him like E.T. and everyone else is trying to make sense around him.

2:11:20Griffin Newman:Why isn't there a scene where he looks at a mansion on a hill and then you cut to him writing the song Mansion on a Hill? What movie could I be talking about right now?

2:11:28David Sims:Oh. But Llewyn Davis is the opposite.

2:11:31Griffin Newman:Movie where he watches Badlands and is like, writes Badlands. Stop. This land isn't very good. Sorry, is that real? Sorry. What if this land is bad? You'll see it. Fuck. You might like it. Guys, I'm from New Jersey. I know, and we love The Boss, and there's things about the movie that worked for me. And you auditioned for that part as well, right? You auditioned for Bruce. One, two. I would have been amazing. You would have been great. I wish John were broken heroes on the last chance of power drive. Come on. Rachel's wearing a jean jacket, and it's jangling. I have a bandana in my back pocket.

2:12:03Covered in jangly things. Yeah.

2:12:06David Sims:Yeah, no, I just, I love that this movie is the inverse, where it's like, let's spend a lot of time getting into the headspace of someone who cannot fucking figure it out. Yeah. Which is just always when well rendered But it's always relevant. drugs to me. Yeah, I understand. I absolutely feel the same way. I think that's why it was so moving to me even as a young teenager to feel like, oh yeah, I mean, this is this is what it's like. And that is such a it's such a teenage feeling too to be like, when am I ever going to get it together? And it's like, not for another 15 years, bitch. Yeah, like it's just, do you know what I mean?

2:12:41So I feel like it really does speak to so many audiences.

2:12:46David Sims:And to some degree, it is like, the worst thing you can do is trying to fight the why can't I get it together thing versus like trying to absorb lessons from everything that happens to you. The aforementioned sitcom pilot with the cat that didn't go. I remember having an emotional breakdown to a comedy mentor of mine at a bar that New Year's Eve when I was like 23 and I was like, my life is fucking ruined. And she was like, the industry sucks. And I was like, you don't get it, but this was the thing. And she just looked at me and went, everything is the thing. Everything's the thing. And I was like, no, you're wrong.

2:13:22David Sims:I've been in shitty fucking college humor shorts. Those weren't the thing. She's so right, though. With every passing year, I'm like, everything is the thing. Everything is the thing. Everything is the thing. It is the whole point of the kind of cyclical loop nature of this movie. And you realize what passes you by is meant to until you learn the lesson. You will learn the same lesson over and over again until you actually learn it. Right, because there's a framing of this movie that is, he had one shot and it was to blow away the New York Times reporter at that show. But yet, the performance he gives for the New York Times reporter is the best performance in the whole movie.

2:13:56David Sims:It's amazing that he gives in the whole movie. And it's actually a moment of processing for him. He solves something

2:14:01Griffin Newman:in himself there in a minor way. I think he has made some progress. And I think he's going to be okay in about like 2022. you know moving at this pace I'm saying like it's a slow slow yeah I think 2022 more loops of the same week is also just one of those I'm just imagining he's like 95 and he's like you know I think I'm actually pretty healthy at this point emotionally healthy

2:14:24David Sims:I just need to call this out because you said you think this is why the movie relates to so many people our researcher JJ who I first must call out texted us by the way most of the high school kids that I tutor don't give a shit about movies, but when they do, they have almost always said that their favorite movie star is Rachel. Granted, this is a sample of like five students who actually care about movies. Five Wisconsinites love Rachel.

2:14:50Griffin Newman:Listed her, but still. Three of five Wisconsinites love Rachel. Rachel's making an appreciative face just for the listener. No, I don't have the words. It's really, really sweet. You matter.

2:15:00David Sims:Now that started with, by the way, because it was following up this anecdote. Here we go. I have this full sense memory of walking to a Trader Joe's in Evanston a few days after seeing Inside Llewyn Davis. And at one point, Julie, JJ's wife, and I turned to each other and were like, that's our favorite movie of the year. And we just talked about all the stuff we loved the whole walk there. And then we grocery shopped. And when we got to the cashier, unprompted, he immediately said, I need to warn you about this movie you should not see. It's called Inside Llewyn Davis. And it's one of the worst movies I've ever seen.

2:15:33And they said this is a Trader Joe's, right? Like he hadn't heard us talking about it.

2:15:37David Sims:He was just genuinely concerned we might see a movie that he thought was too sad. So the thing is, that's such a Trader Joe's employee thing to fucking do. Oh yeah, they'll talk. Where they analyze your basket and go, oh, is it taco night? None of your fucking business. Yeah. I'm a New Yorker. I don't want to fucking talk to you about my... I'm kidding. I'm so joking. But that is a likely thing where they see somebody who has like a melancholic look on their face and be like, warning, there's a really sad movie out right now. If you're teetering on the edge. Yeah. And the idea that they were saying this to every person they rung up for hours.

2:16:12Yeah, probably.

2:16:13David Sims:But I think this is a movie where either you see it and like a lightning bolt to your brain, you're like, oh my God, that's the human condition. Yeah. Or you're like, why the fuck would I want to spend time with this guy? No, quite literally, yes. Right. That's exactly what it is. People who are allergic to this movie, I can't even fault them. I couldn't understand it. I don't get it. I actually kind of

2:16:32Griffin Newman:don't really get it either. I don't get it. And I don't respect it. It's not like a misery porn movie. It'd be different if it was a really wrenching movie about truly, truly awful shit. I'd be like, I get that you don't want to watch that. Fine. But it's not really. And it's also, you know, it's short. And yes, nothing really happens. But in Cohen's fashion, it does move. Every scene's really interesting. It's got great performances. There's this really hot guy who plays Llewyn Davis. His name's Oscar Isaac. You can look at his face the whole time. It's so hot. Can we talk a little post-Oscar?

2:17:04David Sims:Okay. Because he gets Star Wars, and he's in what is sort of designed to be the Han Solo equivalent role, right? As you said, J.J. offers him the movie, and originally his character is supposed to die. The post to die, but they love him. And he said, that's what I just did in Born Legacy. I can't keep being the kind of fake-out lead of a different movie who's done by the end of the first act. And so they keep him alive. I think he's excellent in that movie. He's kind of the best part of that franchise, in my opinion. When they announced that cast, I was like, here we go. He is the guy who is going to pop from this.

2:17:41David Sims:Because I assume that the major recalculation they're doing in the Disney Star Wars era is these things need to be funny again. They have to stop being so self-serious. And what we need is that kind of off-the-hump bad boy Harrison Ford energy. And Oscar Isaac is a really good analog for that. and I remember seeing A Most Violent Year with my father which comes out the year after this. Is that correct? It comes out the year after this. Good movie. So the year before Star Wars. My dad and I walk out A Most Violent Year and we both are like, we're watching 70s Pacino. Pacino is the comp from that one.

2:18:18David Sims:For sure. 100%. But Llewyn Davis in A Most Violent Year and that's an okay movie that I think he's excellent at. He's really good. I like that movie. But it just felt like this guy is doing like Godfather, Godfather 2, Serpico, Dog Day Afternoon, back to back. This guy is on fucking fire. We're about to watch like a generational run. And then Star Wars comes out and a problem I've identified before is Adam Driver basically takes... Oh, oh, oh, oh. So good, so good, so good. New summer arrivals are at Nordstrom Rack stores now. Get ready to save big with up to 60 % off brands like Rag & Bone, Levi's, Adidas, and Free People.

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2:19:37Griffin Newman:Wayfair, every style, every home. Everything good?

2:19:42David Sims:This thing's unplugged.

2:19:44Griffin Newman:Yeah. Well, thankfully I have a backup.

2:19:46David Sims:Do we need to plug it back in? Just keep talking.

2:19:50Griffin Newman:It's okay. I got it. Rachel, sit down. Sit down. It's fine. I feel guilty. It's fine. No, you're not guilty.

2:19:54David Sims:It's my son. You're innocent. No, I'm not.

2:19:58Griffin Newman:It's not your fault that people are walking down the hallway. Whoa, he brought the whole Mac down. Don't worry. It's just a little Mac mini. It's all good. You say that and then Reddit. It's still good. Reddit's going to go ablaze. Rachel Zegler can't control her dog. Reddit ablaze? Reddit ablaze.

2:20:14David Sims:It's just funny to me that there was also this notion that Star Wars was kind of a career dead end for people, right? That Harrison Ford was the only star birthed by Star Wars. and even in the prequels, the people who had heat going in, it stalled out their career for a bit, like Natalie Portman and Ewan McGregor and the people that George discovered, like Hayden Christensen, got a little cursed and then you're like, not only is the curse reversed here, but it's Darth Vader who becomes the totemic leading man. And that Adam Driver's run for the next 15 years is it feels like he absorbs every...

2:20:49David Sims:You bring this up a lot. ...one-fourth of the roles that Oscar Isaac should have had And I'm not saying that Oscar Isaac would have done them better, but it's like he took every serious leading man role and there was no space left. And Oscar Isaac's choices in the vacuum have been a little disappointing only because you're like, isn't this guy just supposed to be like fucking like throwing no hitters over and over and over again? I think this is the pressure you put on Oscar Isaac.

2:21:16Griffin Newman:I put so much pressure on him. I don't put this pressure on him. Because I love him so much. Agree with that. sort of. I think Oscar's doing great. I love him, but I know what you mean. Oscar, the one thing you can always guarantee is that he's going to be the best thing in whatever he does. I haven't seen Frankenstein yet. Did you like him in Frankenstein? The Del Toro. I know you just thought.

2:21:36David Sims:See, here's what I'll say. I like Frankenstein and I like him in it. Elordi is the best thing in it.

2:21:40Griffin Newman:Sure. I love that for Jake. He's incredible in it.

2:21:43David Sims:And Elordi now has a little bit of that energy of Oscar Isaac in this era. And it's just like, And he's doing stuff. Interesting stuff. Yeah. Jake's great. Yes. That's a talented young actor. I think he's an unbelievable actor. Yeah. That makes me really happy. But there's something kind of so unique and special that is captured within this movie that is such a complete performance and feels so unique to him. As much as I wish he could have done this like a hundred times, going back to the idea of like, why doesn't he sing more? there's something about this as just like one perfect document. Well, that's the thing.

2:22:20You want it to be a special moment because then if all he ever did was sing, it just wouldn't be as special anymore.

2:22:27Griffin Newman:We're going to play the box office game. Rachel, is there anything else we haven't touched on the movie? We've obviously talked plenty. It's just fucking great. A plus. Can we shout out the sister scenes? Ah! Because we didn't really touch upon that. And I just, because there's a quote here that I love that I think encapsulates the movie so well when she's talking to him about getting another job, he says to her, and what, just exist? Is that what we do outside of show business? We just exist? It's so good. Fucking piece of shit. To say to his sister, too. It's crazy. Yeah. Film was bought by CBS Films, of course, who I think did a fine job releasing it, and it made a little bit of money.

2:23:06Griffin Newman:They made 13 mil domestic, 32 worldwide. Like, it did fine. That's actually really great for 17 mil. It only did the two.

2:23:13David Sims:It got cinematography. rapturously received won a prize it can. But like rudely snubbed in best original song, screenplay, obviously Oscar Isaac, egregious snub. The best original song category is very tricky though because it cannot have been written, like the words could not have been written first. Please, Mr. Spaceman was the one to put up. I believe they did. Yes, please. It's a case. Sorry, yes. Hunger Games had that same problem. Yeah, because the lyrics were written in the book. It didn't count as original. That's actually really funny. That's crazy. It's so stupid. Even though the melody was new.

2:23:50Not written. Yeah. But yeah, so like that category can be very, very tricky. So if any of those like lyrics had been pulled from something that was well known or known at all. Right, right, right.

2:24:01Griffin Newman:And of course, it's a lot of folk music that's already extant.

2:24:05David Sims:CBS Films, I was looking it up last night, basically releases their first film in January 2010 and their last film in October 2019. Interesting. They are like entirely a 2010s thing and are now completely defunct. Sorry, what was the second nomination? It was cinematography and what? Sound. I'll give it. Yeah, that makes sense. Deserving. Yeah, great sound. Lost to gravity for both. Yeah, that makes sense. Let's throw Carey Mulligan in there. What was the thing I was going to say? CBS definitely tried to do a kind of O 'Brother thing with this. There's the concert film that's now harder to see.

2:24:42Griffin Newman:They did a concert for the New York Film Festival that was filmed at Town Hall. We performed there. And Rachel did the national anthem by the ninth-aligned anthem. Yeah, please. Via phone? Yes, via phone. That was a true, like, we are wasting this talented woman's time. Not at all. It was so much fun. Okay. Lenny was in it too.

2:25:03David Sims:Got a standing ovation from the crowd.

2:25:04Griffin Newman:We made everyone stand up with their hands on their arms. They were already doing it. Yeah. This film came out December 3rd, 2013. Mere days before my first date date with my wife. Well, that's cute. Unfortunately, we went to see Dallas Buyers Club instead. She'd already seen it. Number one at the box office is a film from the Walt Disney Corporation, Griffin. Oh, can I guess? Yes, you can. Iron Man 3? No, that is a great guess, but that was the summer of this year. Fuck. What? So this is December, November. So it's not, okay, Disney. Is this the Frozen year? The Frozen year. Oh, yeah, Frozen came out in November of that year, right?

2:25:48Griffin Newman:So Frozen's doing rather well. I'm checking my notes here. Quite a big hit. I mean, Frozen is one of those things. Insane. Just today, I dropped my daughter off at school. And as is true, almost any time you drop a child any place, someone was in an Elsa dress. Yeah. One kid's going to be in an Elsa dress. I love that, actually. That's the kind of culture ubiquity you cannot recreate, right?

2:26:10David Sims:It is one of the most culturally omnipresent things. Yeah. Frozen has as much saturation as like bananas. Yeah.

2:26:19Griffin Newman:Number two at the box office. Interesting, Rachel. What could this be? It's from a... Is it Catching Fire? Yeah. Francis Lawrence's The Hunger Games Catching Fire. In my opinion... Frankie Lawrence. It's the best Hunger Games film. I think it's the best of the original series for sure. And it's got the trick where they expand to IMAX which I think is really cool for the games. Very, very good movie. Number three at the box office is new this week from a director. I was just making fun of his new movie. Wow. You were just making fun of his new movie. Mansion on a Hill.

2:26:50David Sims:Oh. It's a Scooper picture? Scott Cooper picture. Is it Crazy Heart? No, Crazy Heart's earlier. Is it Out of the Furnace?

2:26:58Griffin Newman:It is Out of the Furnace, a film I've never seen

2:27:01David Sims:with Christian Bale. Rachel, it's weird that face you're making right now because this is a movie that absolutely exists that we talk about all the time. I'm in New Jersey. Oh, fuck. It's about guys in New Jersey Crazy Heart wins Jeff Bridges the Oscar and they announce like this is Scott Cooper's follow-up and he's got like 10 of the best actors alive in it and everyone's a crack in their knuckles. How have I never heard of this movie? Absolute banger coming. Movie comes out. And I actually quite like Scott. So like, and he's a really nice guy. Just a movie that made... Everyone loves Scott Cooper and I shouldn't be making fun of him.

2:27:30Zero impact. It's a zero impact movie.

2:27:33Griffin Newman:I've never seen it. I've never seen it. It was a movie that made like not very much money and didn't get any Oscar buzz. But number three. But it's opening number three in December. Number four, the box office. This is a film I did see on a date with my wife. It is a Marvel film. The Marvel film of Current came out about a month ago. Oh, there's a current at the time. The November 2013 Marvel film. Was this Thor the Dark World? Thor the Dark World, Sif! Starring Zachary Levi. He is in there. I wouldn't say he's starring. Starring Shazam 2's Zachary Levi. He's there. Harold and the Purple Crayons.

2:28:06David Sims:That David and I vowed for very hard. Fun movie. that we really like that we put upper Marvel tier. I really like that movie. I will say, I like most of the performances. Rachel seems skeptical. Yeah. Are you a Marvel girly? I am a Marvel girly. I haven't seen Thor the Dark World.

2:28:21Griffin Newman:Check it out. It's Kat Dennings. Everyone's really rude to it. I love Kat Dennings. Everyone's rude to it. Everyone is rude. I know this about that film that people are rude to it. They shouldn't be. I quite like the Thor franchise from what I have seen. Very fun. Yeah.

2:28:33David Sims:It's the one that kind of takes the mythology seriously and I'm not saying that in a nerd jerk off way but it's like what if we treated this like yeah fucking they're gods yeah it also looks good in a way a lot of the Marvel movies don't

2:28:47Griffin Newman:number five at the box office is a comedy that kind of it's a movie star comedy movie star comedy it's kind of at the end of his comedy movie star era one of those posters where he's literally doing this

2:29:01David Sims:he's doing the face is it Vince Vaughn Delivery Man? bam there we go oh wow David's impression for the listener I did a pretty good impression of the poster or he's like,

2:29:09Griffin Newman:fuck, I have 53 children or whatever?

2:29:11David Sims:This is like... He's like a sperm donor. Yeah. And it turns out he has like 200 children. Oh, it's 533 children. Wow. Jesus. Okay. Strong swimmers. This is like... Sorry. A bunch of Michael Phelps in those testes. This is like Pete Griffin auditioning for everything struggling actor, period. I think I... You were one of the 500. I think I straight up auditioned for 15 different kids because they kept being like, we liked your read on this. we went a different way we have six more kids we want you to read for because some of the kids are like leads some of the kids are one scene some of the kids are one line they just kept throwing more sons at me that is crazy

2:29:48Griffin Newman:yeah not in the film not in the film the other films out Homefront is that the one with Franco that like Sylvester Stallone wrote yes it's this old Stallone script

2:30:00David Sims:that was made with Statham Statham is the good guy and Franco's the bad guy he's an American patriot being hunted by Franco as a creep. Franco is an evil meth dealer.

2:30:11Griffin Newman:Right.

2:30:11David Sims:Who plays Franco's wife in that?

2:30:14Griffin Newman:Of course, Winona Ryder plays Gator's girlfriend. There we go. Franco's playing a character called Gator. And Kate Bosworth plays Gator's mean sister. Okay. You got number seven. You got The Book Thief. Is that like an inspirational Holocaust movie? It is a Holocaust film. It's a great book. Great book. I remember. Big bestseller. The movie's lackluster, but you got Jeffrey Rush in there, which is really great. but the GR's there is it a Mark Forster it's hmm what's a Mark Forster did Mark Forster it's really great it's a it's a Holocaust story told from the perspective of death in the book oh I like the sound of that is it Mark Zusak is the author I think really correct really great Mark Zusak the director of this film is Brian Percival wow he never really made a lot of movies it's Downton Abbey yeah okay that's so funny Brian Percival isn't aren't those two of Dumbledore's middle names Rachel Albus Percival.

2:31:07Griffin Newman:I believe you are correct. Wolfric Brian Dumbledore. And I am embarrassed to admit, I think without checking, I know you are correct. Dumbledore. Remember in the fifth book when he's just like, Harry just experienced a great tragedy. Watch someone die in front of him. How do I make this about me? I think I'm going to ignore him all year. Exactly. That's my strategy.

2:31:29David Sims:Number eight at the box office is... By the way, when's the FBI going to release the secrets of Dumbledore? They have that list. They're sitting on the files. All of Dumbledore's secrets.

2:31:40Griffin Newman:It's just so funny. There were three of those movies and they were like, and the secrets will soon be revealed. Never, because this franchise is done. Number eight is The Best Man Holiday. Good movie. The sequel to The Best Man. Yeah. Sort of like a sequel almost.

2:31:53David Sims:No, definitely.

2:31:54Griffin Newman:Then number nine, the, in my opinion, wildly underrated drama Philomena with Judi Dench. She'll have never seen it. Best Picture. Guys, I have a note from Judi Dench. What? And does it say what? Like, sorry, I rear-ended your car to post it. She put it on your windshield. How did you know? What's your note from Judy? Can I just say, this is the second time on this podcast I am revealing a note I thought from everybody. Right, because you had a note from Barbara. From Babs. Judy came to see Evita. And I went into my dressing room one day and there was a beautiful blue note. And I was struggling to read it.

2:32:27She's got very chicken scratch writing, but apparently it's because her eyes had given out.

2:32:31Griffin Newman:She has very poor eyesight at this point. That was the last line of the note was like, sorry for my penmanship. I can't see shit, essentially, is what she said. But it's the letterhead. Oh, like from the desk of Judy Dench. I didn't look at the letterhead. I was just trying to read this chicken scratch. It was Judy Dench. And so now I have it in a double-sided frame. Did she like you? She liked it. The note said you were shit in this. Basic. Yeah. Patty did it better. What a queen, Judy Dench. Yeah. That's very cool. Love her so much. Philomena. Philomena herself. And number 10 is Black Nativity, the Casey Lemons movie.

2:33:09Griffin Newman:Oh, sure. Which I've never seen another, like, big ensemble family movie. I mean, it's the season. It's tis the season. Tis the season. T 'was the season. And number 11, Dallas Buyers Club, soon to be seen on a date by me and my wife. God, what a time. At the Williamsburg Theater. What a time. What a time. At the Williamsburg Theater, huh? At the Williamsburg Theater. Love it. That's where I saw Megan. Cauldron of romance. That is where, that is, the law requires you see Megan. Mithrigan. I was going to ask you to correct. Mithrigan. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Mithrigan. Mithrigan. Yeah.

2:33:39David Sims:I love this movie. Me too. I love Mithrigan. No, I love Llewyn Davis. I love it so much. I could watch this movie every day of my life. And I did my freshman year of high school. Yeah. It's got really great rewatchability, actually. I agree. Because as you get older, as you go through different things, you notice different things about it. You have different sympathies. You have different annoyances. it's really fucking fantastic. And also rewatching it feels like resetting the cycles of his life. Yeah. Yeah. I said, I mean, I actually had to like stop myself from saying this to Ethan Coen at a party once.

2:34:14Griffin Newman:Did you mean? I met him and I pretended that I didn't know who he was. Rachel. I was really nervous. No. No, he didn't say like, I'm Ethan Coen. He said, my name is Ethan. I was like, cool. What do you do?

2:34:26David Sims:You know? That's quite a move. You have to. You have to. I'm so sorry. I can't. Like, I really, I got so nervous because how do I explain that I've seen the movie like 300 something times?

2:34:37Griffin Newman:I think you could say that to him and he would go, oh, or he'd go, why? What's wrong with you? I do think that's how he would respond. I don't think he would say that. What prescription are you on? I think Cohen would make that kind of joke. How much soul loft do you take? I think you're right that this is,

2:34:50David Sims:he'd pull out a list of alts and they'd be all the things you just said. I don't think that's a guy who takes compliments. No, I imagine that's true. He probably deflects it with a joke. You're right. And that's why I like wouldn't dare compliment him. He's probably been complimented enough. He does ask for, he was, he did ask my best friend for an opinion on his current play that is playing with Aubrey Plaza. And like, they all went out after my best friend happened to be there. And he was like, should I change this? Like, asked her for like genuine advice. And she said, I think you should keep it in.

2:35:20And he did, which is really cool. These are, they're really cool people. Like, they're just, I mean, you can't, you can't deny it after watching one of their films. You're like, a really cool person had to have made this. And like, they are cool people.

2:35:30Griffin Newman:It would be funny if they were total squares Total squares They were like I love J.Crew And Old Navy Well wait a second Ben is right there Well I mean I don't Right

2:35:46David Sims:You're just a historian You're an impartial historian Ben you were a former tuba player I was gonna say there was a

2:35:52Griffin Newman:Don't you dare in front of Rachel Hey I was an alto saxophone player Shout out tuba shout out band shout out band well I was technically a woodwind I guess the sax is technically yes it is you know it's got the it's got the metal on the outside okay I guess that's cool whatever you say I'm a ska appreciator and I but I also a ska appreciator I didn't want someone to come for me as far as like my lack of ska you didn't want some baggy trousered fellow knocking on your door he starts swinging around his fucking chained wallet and ropes me what a nightmare dies you up

2:36:26David Sims:in some suspender kicking you with his checkerboard van.

2:36:30Griffin Newman:Trying to think of other, exactly.

2:36:32David Sims:Steel-toed checkerboard vans.

2:36:35Griffin Newman:Rachel, thank you very much for taking the time in your very busy schedule to come do this bullshit for two and a half hours. I'm genuinely so honored because I love talking about this movie and I'll talk about movies with you guys. It's lovely to talk to you. Time for me to plug the Evita album. That's what I was going to ask. Please. Evita album. I'm kidding, because when does this drop, guys? When do you think? Oh, pretty soon. Let's find out. Two weeks? Oh, great. It's going to drop on November 2nd. Awesome. So the Evita album is going to be available. It's selections from the Evita album.

2:37:05It's not the full thing. On October 24th. So by the time you are listening to this, it'll be out on all the platforms.

2:37:12Griffin Newman:And I should listen to it on a Stairmaster, right? Going up and down stairs. To get the full experience. And then you should go outside. And go outside on a balcony. And look up at the... Don't be on the balcony. You've got to go outside, look up at a balcony. Okay. Oh, right. Right, and to listen to Argentina. To Don't Cry For Me, Argentina. You should just find the nearest balcony in your eyeline and focus on it.

2:37:33David Sims:And also, tweet at Cash Patel. Demand the release of the full Evita cast recording. Oh, yeah, exactly. Good selection. I can't say anything on this matter, but just know that I feel the same way. Ten tracks. Ten tracks, the three-hour fucking musical. Release the full album. And it's sung through. And it's sung through. It's an opera, yeah. Release the secrets of Dumbledore and the crimes of Grateful Dead. Yeah, where are the Dumbledore files?

2:37:56Griffin Newman:Is there anything else you want to plug? Is there anything else coming up? Not really. Okay. Let's just like, I don't know, call your senators and pressure them to bring Evita to Broadway.

2:38:06David Sims:This is a very good plug. Now wait a second. It's a national matter. It's the number one issue plaguing our country today. It's a national matter. There was a criminal lack of Evita on Broadway. Go vote Mom Donnie, guys.

2:38:18Griffin Newman:Yeah, well, this will come out. I guess election day is two days from now. If you live in New York, please go and vote. The name is Mom Donnie. And I will say, when I went to vote in the primary, and I was going to my early voting location, I voted early, not to brag. Hey, not to brag. The Zoran canvasser came up to me and said, are you David Sims for a blank check? And I said yes, and she said, I'm a big fan of your show. I'm so sorry, Zoran, I'm Donnie, friend of the pod. Let's get Zoran on. We could do it. What movie do you think he'd come and talk to you guys about? Well, not one of his mom's movies, because that would be too personal.

2:38:53David Sims:I was talking about this with someone. I was like, if we had done Miranair three years ago, it would have looked cool and it would have been easier to book him now. If he would have been like, oh, you guys did that? That's like... That's cool. Right. Now we can't do it without looking like we're trying to get his attention. What's his favorite movie? Let's find out. We should find out. This is a big voting issue.

2:39:12Griffin Newman:Yeah, we should be hearing this more. What if he doesn't like Inside Llewyn Davis? Cuomo's just like, my favorite movie is whatever the best movie is. Whatever everyone agrees is the good movie. Who's the other guy? Sliwa? Sliwa? him being like, gangs of New York is about me. Sliwa was spitting bars at that debate. I cannot deny it. When he was like, 3-1-1 is a joke. The parade part where they were like, did you watch it? Where they're like, what parades would you do? What parades would you boycott? And both Cuomo and Saron are like, what? And Sliwa was like, the mayor should be in all parades.

2:39:42Griffin Newman:Parades are the most important thing. I will never say no to a parade. I'd be in a parade. It was at 3 in the morning. I'd be at the fucking parade. It's amazing. It's amazing. He's like, I was shot at a 7-Eleven. It's shit like that. That really, I don't know. Maybe he'd be a friend of the pod.

2:39:58David Sims:Does it run like Jumpin' Jack Flash? Oh, because Penny Marshall. Because Penny Marshall. Because Penny Marshall. We always say that Penny Marshall's next. Thank you again, Rachel. Hey, thank you guys so much. Thank you all for listening. Hey, we love you. You're the best. I am. You're three out of five tutored kids' favorite movie star. I will take it. That's like two, three more than I ever thought I'd have. Golden Globe winner and consensus favorite of J.J. Birch's pupils. Aw, thanks, J.J. The great Rachel. Thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate, review, and subscribe. Tune in next week for Hail Caesar.

2:40:38David Sims:Ugh, love that. Next week is Hail Caesar with Shirley Lee. With the great Shirley Lee returning to the show. And I'm going to say this very quietly because I don't want to get upset. David is very much O the L in that episode. You're awful. Oh, am I? I don't remember. What'd you do? I don't know. I have no memory. Shirley gets it out of you. Shirley's my pal. She gets the sillies out of you. Yeah. I love it. I actually really love Hail Caesar, so that's great. Really good. It's a great movie. And as always, Detective Fartman. Perfectly timed bark. Lenny's like,

2:41:10Griffin Newman:there's a fucking guy in the elevator! That's Lenny the Wonder Dog!

2:41:17Griffin Newman:Blank Check with Griffin and David is hosted by Griffin Newman and David Sims. Our executive producer is me, Ben Hosley. Our creative producer is Marie Barty Salinas. And our associate producer is AJ McKeon. This show is mixed and edited by AJ McKeon and Alan Smithy. Research by J.J. Birch. Our theme song is by Lane Montgomery and The Great American Novel. With additional music by Alex Mitchell. Artwork by Joe Bowen, Ollie Moss, and Pat Reynolds. Our production assistant is Minnick. Special thanks to David Cho, Jordan Fish, and Nate Patterson for their production help. Head over to BlankCheckPod.com for links to all of the real nerdy shit.

2:41:56Griffin Newman:Join our Patreon, Blank Check Special Features, for exclusive franchise commentaries and bonus episodes. Follow us on social at BlankCheckPod. Subscribe to our weekly newsletter, Checkbook, on Substack. This podcast is created and produced by Blank Check Productions.