Intolerable Cruelty with Katey Rich

9:08David Sims:I'm a fan of Cathy Ann. Me too. I'm excited for this. I want to see it. It does feel like she is someone who is just like. A little cursed. Well, but also. Cathy Ann or Catherine Zeta-Jones are both. Catherine Zeta-Jones, but also I'm just like, it feels like it's right there for the taking. Yes. It feels like you don't even have to go full substance. Yeah. The right movie, the right supporting part for Catherine Zeta-Jones, you look like a genius. Yep. And I thought she was incredibly good in side effects. I remember seeing them in theaters and going like, this is it. And then that movie just makes no impact whatsoever.

9:41That's a weird Soderbergh wilderness period.

9:43Griffin Newman:I really like that movie. I liked it too. I don't like her. Interesting. This is a real David's being mean to Catherine Zeta-Jones episode so far, which is weird because I think she works in intolerable cruelty. I think she's good in this. I don't think, I do think she's its weakest element a little bit. I would argue that's Geoffrey Rush, but we can get there. Geoffrey Rush, he's in two scenes. I like this take. I just like coming in with this part of the take. I didn't realize it was hot. I just, I remember even at the time, the whole thing, they're here. Look, I'm getting worked up by Captain Zeta-Jones.

10:17David Sims:Look, this is Blank Check with Griffin and David. I'm Griffin. I'm David. It's a podcast about filmographies. directors who have massive success early on in their careers and are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want. And sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they bounce. Baby. Kirshner was in Kentucky. Forget Kirshner. Forget Kirshner. Forget Kirshner. Are you crazy? Have you forgotten Kirshner? It's the best line. Richard Jenkins shows up in this movie and you're like, we are off to the races.

10:47Griffin Newman:Richard Jenkins drops 80 atomic bomb, like, just face, like, just eyebrow twitches. And then Paul Adelstein hits, like, 43. Yes. Like, just crazy numbers.

10:58David Sims:But Jenkins, I think, has two, three scenes, and I'm just like, I want to know everything about this.

11:02Griffin Newman:It feels like he's in the entire movie. It does feel like he's in the entire movie.

11:05David Sims:It might just be well placed. I think it's the two meetings in the courtroom. Yeah. He won't eat that croissant. He won't. Pastry. Pastry, excuse me. This is the master's on the films of Joel and Ethan Coen. Yeah. Together and separately. It is called Pod Country for Old Cast. Today we're starting the drumbeat of the Intelebral Cruelty Reclamation, a movie I have found in my anecdotal conversations with people as we've been doing this series. Even the most ardent Cohen supporters I know in my life, by and large are like, yeah, I saw that when it came out in theaters. It's bad, right? And have never rewatched it.

11:43David Sims:More than Lady Killers? I always thought Lady Killers had... Okay, all right. I did a little difference. Well, he tried, but I'm saying like,

11:52Griffin Newman:I agree with Griffin that I know there are intolerable cruelty fans out there because I'm one of them. Yeah. But we did kind of cast nets being like, so come on, who's the big defender out there? Ready to come on? Blank check. Famous podcast. Time 100. Yes. Decade of dreams. Yes. Seth Rogen's on the show. You didn't say that, Ben.

12:10David Sims:I said all of this. You said all of this. You didn't dangle Seth Rogen at the time.

12:13Griffin Newman:I was walking on the top of 30 Rock,

12:15David Sims:just blaring this from the top of my lungs. an old-timey director megaphones.

12:18Griffin Newman:I couldn't really find anyone who was like,

12:20David Sims:yes, intolerable, I want to defend it. Because we've been such big defenders for a while that we were like, there have to be others. And I just keep finding people who are like, saw it in theaters opening weekend, disappointed. Didn't like. Have never considered re-watching.

12:33Griffin Newman:Or I've heard from others like, oh, I mean, it's okay. You know, a little bit of that. Not so much what I expect and what I've always thought since I saw it in theaters, which is, this rocks. Love it.

12:46David Sims:Now, David, in order to complete this task, we had to look to the aforementioned Time 100 Greatest Podcast of All Time list.

12:54Griffin Newman:We had to shunt her from two other episodes she was booked on because we kept booking famous people. I think that was considered for three, actually. There were definitely three titles in the mix at some point. And I wouldn't have done any of them, to be clear.

13:06David Sims:You are overdue. We were like, we're getting Katie on somewhere in this series.

13:10Griffin Newman:In our defense, you were also kind of like, I'm coming to New York somewhere in a three-month window. Yes, I make it difficult. I was supposed to have come on for a whole previous series, and then I had to go to Los Angeles instead, which is way less fun. What are you supposed to come on for? Yeah, always. Oh, yeah. You guys replaced me with Richard Lawson, which I accept.

13:29David Sims:Listen, from one of the 100 greatest podcasts of all time.

13:32Griffin Newman:And other podcasts.

13:33David Sims:Fighting in the War Room, but also Prestige Junkie. Prestige Junkie and all the great work at the Anchler. Katie Rich, who I'm overdue, but I'm going to anoint you with a title now. What do we got? we always say that you were kind of the first blank check.

13:48Griffin Newman:You kind of were. I mean, Emily Ishida was. This is the thing. But she was on this weird sort of herky-jerky. The transitional. Did she do, like, the early Shyamalan's before 6S? No, she talked about, um... We did a revisiting

13:58David Sims:of Force Awakens. Force Awakens, yeah.

14:00Griffin Newman:So, like, it was basically, but it was the early run of me asking my friends, and you had asked... Yes. The Star Wars show, you, I feel like, had asked more comedian friends because it's like we were more of a comedy show. Also, most of our trivia team. Like, I wasn't going to ask film critics that I admired

14:13David Sims:and respected. We call Emily the mother of blanking. Which I think is a title she has earned. I want to be clear. She comes up with the term in the episode. In that episode, we're like, should we rename our show? Right, right, right. You were the first guest when the show was officially blank checked.

14:26Griffin Newman:We're on the Sixth Sense episode to be clear. Yes. And it was kind of the first episode the box office game got played. It is? Was it really? Because it's my favorite box office weekend. I did it as a whim. I was like, oh, let's try to guess them.

14:36David Sims:I called out how much I love that weekend. Yes. And it became the game. So I want to anoint you here in this decade of dreams. The auntie of blankies. Oh, God. What an honor. The city rich to be the auntie of blankies. Auntie, that's true. I'll be sitting on a porch just like this porch that is right here in the studio.

14:56Griffin Newman:Sipping on a sweet tea. Yeah, or half sweet, half lemonade. Arnold Palmer. I could have brought some pimento cheese here. Y 'all, come on. You have been talking for years pre-pandemic about doing a road trip and coming down. David, I realize you have a large cargo now. But I love North Carolina. We have a lot of toys in our house. Bring your children.

15:16David Sims:Including some that I've sent.

15:17Griffin Newman:That's true. My kids aren't like, oh, yeah, all I need are some toys. Anyway, carry on. I do think Griffin was spiritually with us because we went to Pandora. We went to Animal Kingdom and saw the floating islands of Pandora in Florida. And I do think the Banshees that you sent to our house were like with us along on the journey. And like I talked to you about going through the little boat ride that people think is boring. but I thought was beautiful. Anyway, you have helped encourage it. A boat ride through Pandora. Come down and see Fire and Ash with us. Absolutely. We're going to be there opening night, I'm sure.

15:43David Sims:I like that idea. Charlie went to the summer camp. Charlie, past and future guest. Now nine years old, which I just feel like people listening need to know. He's on the Titanic episode as a sub six month old baby. As a baby. He still holds the record for youngest guys. I hope he keeps it. For the suicide. But he went to summer camp and the week that the Fire and Ash trailer came out and I picked him up and while we were in the car before we'd gotten like more than two miles away, I was like, you gotta watch this. You gotta see the Fire and Ash trailer. And he's so hyped. We're ready. We'll be there.

16:08David Sims:Few things in this horrible broken world make me happier than how much Charlie loves Avatar.

16:13Griffin Newman:You know what rocks about Fire and Ash too? What? Is like, you know, with Way of Water, just years of, yeah, but is he actually gonna make it? And yeah, and it kept getting delayed and all this. And then Avatar 3, he was like, yeah, it's gonna come out two years after. Yes. And like, like Clockwork, they were like, here's your trailer. This movie is ready. Like, this movie's coming. There's no fucking around. Doesn't get enough credit. Everyone's talking fire. What about the ash? With fire and ash.

16:39David Sims:Mm-hmm. I just wanted to say about fire and ash. I agree with you where you're like, okay, we're getting into like a rhythm here. Now these are going to come out and then you look at the calendar and you're like, four is five years away? Is he going to make them? Do you think he's going to do it?

16:52Griffin Newman:I don't think so.

16:53David Sims:You don't think he's going to make the other ones?

16:54Griffin Newman:The way he's talking about, oh, now I really want to like make you live inside of a nuclear explosion for this like Hiroshima movie. I want to make you cry. Like he keeps being like, it's going to be an IMAX. Maybe I'll make an even bigger IMAX that's even more horrible to witness.

17:09David Sims:I will make you hurt. Basically every James Cameron quote now is just him seeing the lyrics of her.

17:16Griffin Newman:Like, I don't think I want to punish the audience. You know, George R.R. Martin is someone who clearly like hit a wall in his big creative process for his book. And he just, it's not like he got lazy. He just started doing other stuff being like, well, I hope I figure that out one day. Right. And maybe he will, maybe he won't. James Cameron, he's not lazy but you get the sense from him a little bit of like I just want to take a break and then I'm going to get back to them where you're like 75 years old and he's a fit man he looks great but he could die in a submarine accident at any moment although he would tell you no fucking way am I dying in a submarine I'm smart I'm like all the other guys I'm the best at staying alive in a submarine he's very good at it This is true.

18:02Griffin Newman:Undefeated at this point. I just, maybe he'll hand it off to somebody. I don't know. He's intimated he could.

18:08David Sims:That had always been my guess. Yeah. And now he's saying, I don't want to hand them off.

18:14Griffin Newman:Right.

18:15David Sims:Here's my new theory. He's always done this thing where after an avatar, he's like, maybe I want to make something else. And then Disney announces a new record-breaking deal for him to fast-track the next avatar.

18:27Griffin Newman:And they've built him like a space station this time. or whatever, you know, like they've always built him some new facility.

18:32David Sims:But he did it with Cleopatra. Right. After Way of Water, he was like, I'm gonna make this Hiroshima movie right away. And then they were like, never mind Fire and Ash coming out two years on the clock. Right. I also think he has most of the footage in the can. For four and five? You think so? Yes. Most of? I thought two and three were together and then four and five were gonna be. But he's been doing more since then. I see. Well, he's got like the studio in New Zealand, right? He can just like throw Kate Winslet into the tank whenever he wants. I want. I want that. We want. I just wonder if he's sort of now like, I've captured most of it.

19:07David Sims:Can I be doing post on avatars while making new movies? I see. Which feels like a tall task, but if anyone has the hubris to believe they could pull it off, to do the sort of Schindler Jurassic. I was just going to say, it's like Spielberg. That's my new theory on what he's getting at.

19:24Griffin Newman:I'm all for it, and I'm all for the sort of like, these big directors hit a certain age of Ridley Scott syndrome and they're like I want to work more like I feel Scorsese's doing the same thing well let's not go crazy I mean Marty works he's no Ridley Scott but he's slowing down now but he had been cranking I think the other thing with Marty is it's like he can only work at a high budget and all this stuff because he needs to work pretty slow and have a lot of infrastructure around him whereas Ridley Scott's like send in my team you know we'll make a fucking I can build a pyramid for you in an hour or whatever it is he does.

20:03Griffin Newman:Catherine Zeta-Jones.

20:04David Sims:Zeta? Zeta? That's an SNL 25 joke. Bill Murray, Nick the Lounge singer. Welsh accent? Sings to Catherine Zeta-Jones in the audience.

20:14Griffin Newman:The Welsh accent is very sings-y. Me and Catherine Zeta. Zeta. Zeta.

20:20David Sims:Is it Zeta or Zeta? And I always forget how she corrects him. I always think it's Zeta.

20:26Griffin Newman:Catherine Zeta-Jones, the great Catherine Zeta-Jones, in a way, the great Catherine Zeta-Jones. Yes. I was raised on Catherine Zeta-Jones, right? I saw Mask of Zorro when I was 12.

20:37David Sims:Beyond that. Bewitched by this woman. We have said this. The two trailers, she had two trailer moments that felt like they exploded the universe. The entrapment trailer? Entrapment. Entrapment, her going through the lasers. The lasers, yeah. And the end of the Zorro trailer, where her clothes fall off in a Z. and it felt like those two things, it was like Bill Clinton got like State of the Union. We all agree this is the sexiest woman on the planet. She's so beautiful. And it just felt like in a way that was codified for like all children. You were like, I get it. You're telling me this is like the height of like glamour and charisma.

21:13David Sims:And then there was this narrative that like Michael Douglas was like, I must meet that woman.

21:18Griffin Newman:Bring her to me. That's a decent Michael Douglas actually. Thank you.

21:23David Sims:This is CNN. And then it was, right, this constant comedy of like, she has to change his diapers. Yep. She's married to the oldest man in the world.

21:33Griffin Newman:Meanwhile, he's like, I'm going to play Ant-Man 20 years from now or whatever the fuck.

21:37David Sims:Then she's in traffic and people were like, is she actually a good actress? Traffic was the Oscar.

21:42Griffin Newman:Right. Was the don't bullshit me. But yeah, she's pretty good. And then within a couple of years, she's won an Oscar. Yep. Okay.

21:48David Sims:I have this very strong memory of my industry dad having the variety that says she's fired all of her reps. And he goes like, I know these movies haven't worked. The, uh, yes. Terminal, Oceans 12, run in a row. But he was like, if you got Academy Award winner Catherine Zeta-Jones and the next three projects you give her are Coen's, Spielberg, Hanks. You're doing your job. Coen's, Quinny, Spielberg, Hanks, and Oceans. You're doing your job. You kind of can't get three better projects for her. I would agree with that.

22:20Griffin Newman:And yet they didn't, none of them really worked out.

22:23David Sims:And the stink was on her.

22:24Griffin Newman:The stink was on her. Even though none of them are her fault. The reason that they did not work. I think I would agree. I was thinking about her performance in this and whether she's the weak link and like who I would replace her with. Well, so that was my question. So here's what I want to bring up right now. So 2003, David Sims. Imagine him, 17 years old. Picture it. A cinephile. Foggy London town. Yes. living in foggy London town, reading his Empire magazines. By this point, reading his sight and sounds, watching his old movies, right? A cool guy. Oh, yeah. So cool. Funky thrash. Active social life.

22:56Griffin Newman:Yeah. I had a very active social life. I am an extroverted boy. Lighting your bottom lip, raising the roof. Doing those things. Dressing, we're going to say just okay. Probably some work to be done there. If you watch this movie, you see the fashion of the time and realize none of us really stood a chance. It's fine. That's an interesting point. But there's two movies that come out this year that are related to each other in that they are both trying to recapture the sort of throwback spirit of an old rom-com. Intolerable Cruelty, I would say, is more of a screwball comedy. And then Down With Love, which is more of a sort of 50s Doris Day, Rock Hudson kind of thing.

23:30Griffin Newman:But they both have this same energy of like, arch, we are going super arch. We've got movie stars. We've got costumes. We've got bright colors. And audiences are like, no, thank you. Like, absolutely not.

23:43David Sims:This is not the tone we prefer. Down With Love has completely been reclaimed, I would say, at this point.

23:48Griffin Newman:Down With Love was essentially an instant cult classic. It came out, bombed. Critics were like, blah, but audiences were like, we hate it. And the Oscar watch forums were like, masterpiece. Well, and it has a period piece going for it, right? Like, Talbot Kulti being present day. It does the weird kind of, not a period piece, but something of a period tone.

24:10David Sims:I think it is why everyone bumped on this when it came out. Yes. Is for filmmakers who are so good at pastiche. This is one of their most pastiche movies. And yet it is committed to being dressed like a modern film.

24:25Griffin Newman:And featuring modern things like video cameras. Sure. Fucking, you know, just like the sort of. Cable shows. The type of gold digger that it's about is a modern kind of, you know, all that shit.

24:36David Sims:I think that broke brains in both directions. And you even look at the trailer for this movie, which can't decide.

24:41Griffin Newman:Which I saw a billion times.

24:43David Sims:A billion times. You cannot decide. You Fascinate Me was one of those weird duly appointed federal marshals. 100%. Right. The trailer can't decide if they're trying to sell Coen's weirdness or they're trying to sell two sexy movie stars doing rom-coms.

25:01Griffin Newman:It's more trying to sell, this is, we've got two hot people, they're going to fall in love, and it's a comedy set in the world of the divorce lawyer. Okay, fine. But, you know, like, yes.

25:12David Sims:To vote 20 seconds to Klaus the Baron Heinz fund. Exactly.

25:16Griffin Newman:There's going to be some goofy, Coen's-y stuff. Yeah. And that's me, again, in the audience, you know, with a little foam finger being like, I'm ready. I love Preston Sturgis. Because in the context of the movie, those things do go hand in hand, but selling them both together is really hard.

25:30David Sims:I think this movie is incredibly cohesive and like of a piece. Agreed. But I remember I did not see this at the time. I said erroneously from the moment I became co-impilled when I saw A Brother. I haven't missed one of their films in theaters. But I didn't see this in theaters because everyone around me told me it was bad.

25:49Griffin Newman:It didn't get very good reviews and it vanished quickly.

25:52David Sims:Both directions where I was like people went to see it as a comedy were like that thing sucks. It's not funny. And I was like, well, I don't trust them. I need to talk to Cohen's people. And Cohen's people in my life were like, it's bad. It doesn't feel like them. It feels anonymous, which is insane to me. Now it's insane. Now it's insane. Yeah. But I do think there was that bumping of like, people didn't know how to process this. Yeah. I think if this movie had been set in an arch 40s like sort of thing, it would have - If it had been the Hudsucker proxy, which I did rewatch coming into this and was thinking a lot about that archness and how the setting of it - Yes.

26:29tells you what it's going to be way more than Intolerable Cruelty does.

26:32Griffin Newman:It would have bombed Aspart.

26:34David Sims:It would have gone harder upon release. Yeah. But I think it would have found its champions faster. Yes. Versus I feel like Cohen's people who are like loath to revisit this because they were like, I just remember that being a complete nothing. Yeah. Which is absolutely not. I think if you watch it now, I watched it for the first time on a plane years later and I was like, it's the one I haven't seen. I guess I should watch it. And I got to the fucking Kirshner was in Kentucky scene. And I immediately was like, this is fucking Preston Surgis. This is the most Surgis of any of their films. How did people not get this?

27:07David Sims:Down to like its weird like seven act structure. It's like insane like scenes, like set pieces built around dialogue. And like seven internal games within a five person conversation.

27:20Griffin Newman:Objection, your honor. Poetry recitation. Right. I'm just going to keep giving you lines. We would say. You would say Mick Hammer on his fanny. The way they say nail his ass in five different ways across the...

27:39David.

27:40David Sims:Yes. I've had some bad meals in my life. I can imagine. Do you know about Huel? I know about Huel.

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28:18David Sims:I like the RTDs. I got the chocolate peanut butter. I keep those in the fridge. You know, we often record in the morning. I don't remember to eat breakfast. I'm watching the movie and then I'm heading out the door. I didn't eat anything. I just grab one of those. I chug it down. I feel great. I'm ready to do bits. Right.

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29:02David?

29:03Griffin Newman:Yes, how's that to-do list? It's tough.

29:05David Sims:It's tough and life keeps throwing more things at me.

29:08Griffin Newman:Well, is there maybe something that we could take off your plate, have someone else help you out with? Perhaps a trusted tasker from TaskRabbit.

29:18David Sims:David, I would love nothing more. My ideal life is to do as little as possible. As much as can be off my plate, the happier I am.

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30:23It also,

30:24David Sims:it's the funniest thing to me that this remains their most expensive film. I've erroneously said it was Hudsucker, but I didn't realize this movie cost a reported$60 million.

30:33Griffin Newman:I want to see what JJ's research says because I've seen that number and maybe it is truly just Clooney and Catherine got their quote. I also think a lot of some development costs. Maybe that too. You have to remember

30:44David Sims:that always counts against the film and this movie just bopped around for 15 years.

30:48Griffin Newman:I'm opening the dossier, actually. Why not? Because, indeed, this is crucial to understanding in Tolerable Cruelty because it lived many lives before the Coens made it. It was written as a film by Robert Ramsey and Matthew Stone, who had made movies like Man of the House. Of course. Oh, JTT, remember it well. Life, the Ted Demme, Martin Lawrence, Eddie Murphy dramedy that is, like, not bad. We always are like, weird movie.

31:17David Sims:It's so close to being great that every five years I'll watch it and I'll be like, is it a masterpiece yet? Like, do I need to put it back in the oven for five more years? And they write the script. Man of the House and Soul Man, of course, two of the least culturally problematic films ever made. No, no, no.

31:31Griffin Newman:Not Soul Man.

31:32David Sims:Oh, Soul Man?

31:32Griffin Newman:Soul Man with Robert Downey Jr. and Bernie Mac, which is a serviceable. Not Robert Downey Jr. I mean, Samuel Jax. You know, a three-person. I was going to say, that still sounds problematic here.

31:44David Sims:He wanted to follow up his Tropic Thunder nomination.

31:47Griffin Newman:I feel like that was like one of the last Bernie Mac movies, right? Yeah, that came out in like after Intolerable Coolty, right? Soul Men came out in 2008.

31:56David Sims:Yes. I want to say Old Dogs is the last one to be released. Possibly. But Soul Men was his last Bernie Mac movie. Right, where he's above the title. It's okay.

32:06Griffin Newman:They wrote this concept based, you know, rom-com set in the world of divorce lawyer. Okay, funny. Michael Caton Jones the director of Doc Hollywood is attached that makes sense that sounds like a sort of okay rom-com from the 90s so far the Coens come on as screenwriters because Ron Howard picks it up and brings them in to polish it he wants to make it after wrapping Ransom and then Howard moves on to make way for Andrew Bergman the director of The Freshman it could happen to you another guy who makes that kind of 90s on bass single

32:45David Sims:but it basically I don't know if the pitch was this focused at the time but I feel like my girlfriend was asking me like what is Intellirable Cruelty about and I was like how do I logline it and it's interesting because this felt like a script that studios were so hot on for so long. Studios just kept being like someone's gotta make it right this is such a good premise and I was like I guess the premise is divorce lawyer who becomes obsessed with world's greatest gold digger. There's that. And a lot of stories. There's a sincerity in it.

33:17Griffin Newman:What if the world's most brutal divorce lawyer and the world's greatest gold digger fell in love? And they sort of become fascinated with each other. But imagining Ron Howard doing that with a gold digger. There's a cynicism baked into it that's hard to imagine a lot of these people doing it. But I mean, I just figure guys like Ron Howard are like, I'm making, Ron Howard is the ultimate journeyman. He's like, I'm making a thriller, maybe I'll make a rom-com. I'll make the funniest version.

33:42David Sims:I think everyone else was going to make a much softer version of this. Chronologically, this is the first for hire work Coen's do. Right. This is the start of them. Is this polish of the script. So where are they? This is before Fargo. Okay, the period where they're making Hudsucker and they haven't made any money. So they're doing script doctoring. So I think it's in the immediate post-Hudsucker, they do a pass on this. That pass gets people really excited. That's when it elevates to like, oh, now it's Ron Howard level filmmakers interested.

34:08Griffin Newman:So after Bergman, Joe Dante came aboard and was going to make it with Jeremy Irons and Heather Locklear. Which, like, they don't, they're not a pair that makes sense. Jeremy Irons, like, I could see that. It could be fun. Howard then returns, then leaves to make Grinch and Beautiful Mind.

34:29David Sims:Great. Other people are rewriting the script past the Coen draft at this point. So they had moved on. They made Fargo. They're good. They can do other stuff.

34:36Griffin Newman:Then Jonathan Demme, who's clearly seeking out a sort of throwback-y movie and eventually makes it with Truth About Charlie.

34:42David Sims:But what is so good? Like, circles this one with Will Smith. This is what's insane. I need to just get this timeline clear here. He's trying to do Truth About Charlie with Will Smith. Will Smith is doing Ollie with Michael Mann. Right, and Ollie just takes too long. Surprise of surprise, Michael Mann movie runs over budget, over schedule.

34:59Griffin Newman:And Will Smith is very much like, I don't care, I will do anything for this movie. Like, he was so in on Ollie.

35:04David Sims:Right, that he's like, I guess I'll wait for you. Right. There's the threat of a WGA strike that ends up not happening. Right, that was, right, you're right. That has everyone panicked of, like, you've got to get something made. So then he's like, can I find something else?

35:17Griffin Newman:Maybe I'll make something in the meantime. So then he finds a tolerable cruelty. And he wants Hugh Grant. Sure. Oh, yeah. And Tay Leone. But at the time she's... Oh, I think the anti-Tay Leone. Have you seen Spanglish? Do you think Tay Leone could bring this? performance. I watched a lot of Just Shoot Me in this period. Well, she's not in that. I love Shaylee. Was she in the shoot me? I'm sure you enjoyed it. Who am I thinking of? She was on a show.

35:44David Sims:It was called The Naked Truth. Okay. It was also an MC. Hang on. What NBC sitcom do I know Tay Leone from?

35:51Griffin Newman:I mean, I think of Tay Leone as emerging with like flirting with disaster or whatever, right? And then she was in Deep Impact. Yes. I know her from Deep Impact for sure. I guess the Naked Truth is what I'm thinking of. Right. But her being in Deep Impact was kind of that thing of like she was in a movie that made money. Is she a star? And like the answer was no. Family man I think she's very good in. Sorry, I didn't mean to put us on a tail, Leonie. She has the final entertainment weekly cover

36:15David Sims:for Naked Truth where I believe she's naked wrapped in American flag.

36:19Griffin Newman:That all sounds about right. Demi then hops off to go back to Truth About Charlie. He goes, never mind. Who's going to be great.

36:28David Sims:I can't wait for Will. I'll do Truth About Charlie. One of the worst movie star casting choices of all time, not waiting for Will Smith. And then he tries after the fact to do Intelible Cruelty again with Will Smith because he's so angry that he missed his Will Smith job.

36:43Griffin Newman:He makes Truth About Charlie. He's coming off of that probably thinking, like, nailed that. Everyone's going to love it. And then, right, it's like, I still have Taya Leone attached and I'm now going to try and attract Will Smith. Would Will Smith have been good in this movie? Sure. I can see a version of it working. Not like Clooney, but I can see it working. I mean, like, Hitch Will Smith, the kind of, like, overconfident but doesn't...

37:06David Sims:But Hitch is the perfect Will Smith rom-com vehicle. Yeah. Down to now understanding how much of that movie is, like, weirdly autobiographical. Right.

37:19Griffin Newman:So the Coens, obviously, the whole time are around as script polishers, but they are developing to the White Sea. They're ill-begotten, never-made adaptation of a J.D. M. Sicki novel. and obviously they want Brad Pitt, and that movie has bounced from Universal to 20th Century Fox.

37:39David Sims:It's this constant battle of a budget between$40 and$60 million. They can get it made for$40 with Brad Pitt, but every time they have a close to set up...

37:47Griffin Newman:The Coens want$60 and they want to shoot it in Japan, and Fox keeps being like, isn't this a movie with no dialogue that's completely bizarre?

37:53David Sims:They'll tentatively greenlight it at$50 and then a new budget will come in at$60 and pull the brakes on it again. They're actively in the middle of this after O 'Brother, trying to make To the White Sea.

38:02Griffin Newman:The thing they keep trying to make, by 2001, Joel Cullen says in an interview that To the White Sea, quote, went down the old Draynorino. I do like that they're pretty, you know, kind of.

38:12David Sims:But they're like close to going.

38:14Griffin Newman:Yes.

38:15David Sims:It falls apart. And they're like, I guess we're giving up on this for good. Carter Burwell.

38:19Griffin Newman:It's the one movie they to this day talk about is like that was a movie we wanted to make. Like, of course, they've had other projects that never came to fruition. But it's usually the only one.

38:27David Sims:It is the great unmade movie.

38:28Griffin Newman:Right. In their brain.

38:29David Sims:Our friends Rachel and Tori Jordan Fish. Your former classmate. My former classmates. Have done a great podcast about it. Continue to do a great podcast about it. But yes, it's the great Aunt May Coen's movie. I have a question, actually.

38:39Griffin Newman:Were you in attendance of the early MGMT concert? Yes, I've seen that video going around. I'm not in that video, but I have Zapruder film gone through it being like, I've got to know someone who's in that. I haven't been able to find it. But yes, I saw them play multiple house parties circa 2004, 2003. And you were like, this music could really be crushing a commercial. That kids was the song that they had in college that they would put it on at a party. Everyone would go nuts. Every wedding I've been to from someone from Wesleyan, they always play kids. Everyone always gets them. It's a thing.

39:14Griffin Newman:What was the other one? There were two kids. And Time to Pretend was there. Famously from the Minecraft movie trailer. Now beloved by children the world over. The kids write about this.

39:25David Sims:Kids now love Time to Pretend. The MGMT has had its generational moment. It's a great song. I love the second album, which is the one that everyone kind of slipped on. That was when everyone was like, we're out. I know. It's the good one. It's the fucking Petsack. Congratulations is really solid.

39:38Griffin Newman:The one with the optical illusion cover.

39:40David Sims:Well, there were different. There was a scratch off cover for the vinyl release. Wow. It's Trapper Keeper. It's very Trapper Keeper. Oh, yeah. I remember. Feels about right.

39:51Griffin Newman:So, yeah, that doesn't happen. And they're disappointed. Yes. And they are coming up to this point where it's like, okay, do we like, stripped to the White Sea, down to the tax, and try to reconstitute it into something that's going to be cheaper or whatever, or do we fucking do something else? Do we bury it?

40:10David Sims:Do we move on so we don't keep getting hung up, losing years of our lives trying to make this?

40:14Griffin Newman:At this point, Pitt has moved on, but they had Clooney attached to Intolerable Cruelty. I mean, to the White Sea. And he's the one who's like, why don't we just fucking make Intolerable Cruelty? Look at this script! Well, because Universal has

40:27David Sims:pushed that to him as a potential star vehicle. Right! And it's just there. Makes perfect sense.

40:32Griffin Newman:And the Coens are like, we have always liked this script.

40:35David Sims:Clooney's response, by the way, now having worked with the Coen brothers, they send him the script. He's like, can I read the Coens draft? Everything I've heard is that the Coens draft, like 10 years ago. He went to Universal and was like, can you dig that up? That was the one that everyone got so excited about. Can I go back and read that? He reads that and he's like, I would do this. He goes to them. JJ has the quote in there. but Carter Burwell basically says that within the same week, they called him to say, unfortunately, to the White Sea is dead. And then like three days later said, we're going to make intolerable cruelty.

41:07I hope we get a chance to talk about Carter Burwell because he is on fire on this movie.

41:11Griffin Newman:Carter Burwell lit himself on fire with, what was it? Bloods and Bloods and Bloods? What's the first movie? He's been running on fire. He's been just one of those guys walking around on fire ever since.

41:22David Sims:Incredible score that I think has never been released. You cannot find this one. I think. Yeah, because it's like, like if I called Universal, they'd be like, what? We didn't make that movie. Your phone would explode. So, Clooney's attached. It's suddenly like super fast tracked. And Burwell was like, it felt like a breakup rebound thing. Because Clooney is as hot as he can possibly be at this point.

41:45Griffin Newman:He's hot stuff, although we're going to talk about his career in a second because he's in a little moment. He's having a little moment here.

41:51David Sims:Post-Oceans, in 2001, I do think there is a feeling of he's cracked it 100%. Right? The irony, of course, is that Clooney never is able to replicate mainstream crossover movie star in the pocket outside of the Oceans trilogy in the way he did there. But in that moment, I think they were like, he's crossed it all.

42:14Griffin Newman:But you're forgetting the run is, it's really impressive. After Batman and Robin. Uh-huh. So, like, we all love Batman and Robin. And then Peacemaker, which, like, did okay. You've got, like, Out of Sight, which it just does okay, but is such a smash, critically. Which is the movie star persona. Like, that's where he figures it out. 100%. Like, that's the start of it. And then Three Kings, which does pretty good and, again, gets amazing reviews. And then Perfect Storm, Oh Brother, Ocean's Eleven. No, I know.

42:43David Sims:It's pretty nuts. But Oh Brother, not Oh Brother, I'm sorry. Ocean's Eleven is one of the ten highest grossing films of the year. you're not gonna beat Ocean's Love and even this big ensemble thing you were like this guy's undeniable he's taking the Cary Grant mantle I think that's a lot of the feeling totally yeah he's now the mayor of Hollywood

43:01Griffin Newman:slap a tux on this guy and we'll want it but what does he want to make he wants to make an out and out comedy it's funny that he's saying because it's like he did make O Brother but I guess O Brother is like such an odd movie right he's like can I fucking make a comedy he's also editing Confessions of a Dangerous Mind which of course he directed yeah and he has like he's finishing work on Solaris, even Soderbergh's film, The Laugh Riot of 2002. Which is, I mean, one of my favorite movies of all time, but it's a gloomy film. Let us say. Let us say. And so, I'm sure he wants to shake the sillies out a little bit, right?

43:37Griffin Newman:Like, he's like, let me, you know, be a buffoon again for the Coens. Yeah. And I think this is interesting. This is from a Vanity Fair piece 2003. I did not work there. I know you didn't work there. David is gesturing towards Yeah, I did. Where he says, he's like, it is kind of a terrifying thing to do because this could be so bad. Like when you're reading the script, this rat-a-tat, this screwball thing, we're like, I have to go for it, right? Like I'm going to have to give like a really big performance and he does and it rocks, but it could be so like, ooh. Incredible in this. Yes. But it's not like he's doing anything that silly.

44:13Like he's not the big goofy character. I mean, I guess he wears a kilt, but like, you know, the Baron and all those other side characters are doing so much of the heightened stuff and he's in the locked in Cary Grant mode.

44:23David Sims:It's just very stylized. It's a stylized performance which speaks to why audiences bumped on this movie in general. What is this weird thing going on here without it having the clear signposts of being a period piece, being more stylized? Yeah.

44:40Griffin Newman:Rumor has a top choice for this movie is Julia Roberts. Makes perfect sense. Obviously, Clooney has literally just worked with her twice, Oceans and Confessions. Yeah. They're pals. But Catherine Zana-Jones has just won her Oscar. Sure has. Right? Mm-hmm. Although I have to imagine, was this filmed after that? It must have been. But Chicago was such an obviously hot thing. No, she won the Chicago Oscar like March 2003. Oh, you're right. No, this film's after Chicago's done, but it filmed in June 2002. Oh, wild. Mm-hmm. But they knew that she was gonna hit Bay with Chicago. Chicago, yeah.

45:21Griffin Newman:And they all had a great time with her.

45:23David Sims:Chicago did feel like a... Did you hear that Chicago's good? Like, it was not seen as an Oscar contender until, like, October. Because it was supposed to be Kings of New York, right? Right. And people were just like,

45:35Griffin Newman:that can't be good.

45:37David Sims:Mm. Man.

45:38Griffin Newman:It is crazy that it came in and just fucking, right, like, elbowed Marty out of the way and who's the other... There's two big... Pauvers. Hours. Well, Pianus came on late. It was The Hours, I guess. And Two Towers. And Two Towers. Right. Which everyone was sort of like, hold. We'll get there. Like, hold. And that's the year where I, is every Best Picture nominee produced by either Rudin or Weinstein?

46:03David Sims:It's all Weinstein. Except for Lord of the Rings, I think.

46:06Griffin Newman:The Hours is the one Rudin. No, but Weinstein has his name on it. Oh, that's right. That's the thing. Yeah. He still had his name. He did a lot of work. Yeah. Right. And his name is on it because he fired Peter Jackson or whatever the fuck. Nice work if you can guess. He didn't, like, I think Weinstein's involvement with Chicago was low, but it was a Miramax movie. Yes, it was. Gangsta New York was obviously the Weinstein one where he actually gets a nomination for that one. And then I do think he had something to do with The Pianist as well. Oh, I don't know. Maybe not. Or no.

46:35David Sims:No. The Pianist was somebody else.

46:37Griffin Newman:The Pianist was... Am I wrong? Fucking, who even released The Pianist? Focus? No. Canal plus Purdue. Wikipedia is really not coming through on this one. Yeah. Who knows? Who can say? It's a mystery. We'll never know. Anyway, they had a great time making this movie. The cones did very little press. JJ's apologizing. I don't know why you need to apologize to me. I don't employ you because you're fired. Apparently, they were already shooting the lady killers when this movie came out.

47:07David Sims:Okay.

47:07Griffin Newman:So I guess they didn't do much press. They liked that it was set in the present. Cool. Cool. Roger Deakins was coming off shooting House of Sand and Fog, another laugh riot. Piazza was released by Focus. Yes. There you go. Carter Burwell says he settled on a Mancini approach, lighthearted, 60s jazz pop.

47:32David Sims:And it's a classic him reappropriating other music into the score beautifully, much like Hudsucker.

47:39Griffin Newman:And the film premiered. And I would say this is mistake number one. At the Venice International Film Festival. Oh, wow. Out of competition as a work in progress, which is insane. I wouldn't have done that. I think it was still missing a scene or two. Does it come out October? And then it came out in October. Like, do not release this in October. Yeah, put it out in the spring. This is a spring or summer movie. Yeah.

48:01David Sims:Like, it's a light rom-com. But this speaks to them not knowing, like, is this a straight down the middle play and we're hiding the ball on Cohen's weirdness? Yeah. Right. Or do we want some level of, like, Coen's prestige. Yeah. But it looks like America's Sweethearts or some other kind of modern day rom-com. So getting that prestige, even getting the Coen's people on board, I think is challenging because you look at the poster for it, you're like, I know what that is. The most generic poster in the world. They take this beautiful two-shot. They're sitting next to each other. Well, there's this beautiful two-shot of just incredible movie star glow of Clooney and Zeta-Jones in the elevator.

48:37David Sims:A scene that is like throwing off its hump by a dog biting his hand and a bunch of funny dialogue. Right? And they just like screenshot that and then remove the elevator and put them in front of the most generic blue cloud trees or whatever the sky yeah

48:52Griffin Newman:what can I tell you the font is bad the font is bad do you like do you guys like the actual opening credit you know the the sort of love it Vegas-y suspicious minds yeah you know the yeah it's great cupids and the hearts yeah it's fun right yes it's like Monty Python flying circus it's very nice I think they got opening title sequences I didn't like go through an episode. I would not say so, but this is a movie that demands it,

49:15David Sims:I would say. I'm trying to think of other films of theirs that have kind of like standalone opening sequences. Because like Hutt Sucker, you go through the city, but that's like the set. I mean like,

49:26Griffin Newman:Raising Arizona has the like unbelievable like whistling, you know, yodeling, you know, like title rushing at you. They'll crush an opening title. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But they don't usually do that. But this kind of sequence. Yes. Yeah, having like a cold open and then cutting to the title like makes sense for them, but like the cupids felt new. The movie,

49:43David Sims:just this movie opening with like, what is Jeffrey Rush doing in this? How does this factor into the plot? It takes so long to circle back in any way. Yeah.

49:52Griffin Newman:My thing, so my thing with this movie is, I see when it comes out, I think it's great and I'm immediately like, the only fan of it, you know, and it's quickly forgotten and then over the years, I will show it to anyone I date, any pal of mine because I'm like, because they're always like, oh, I just want to watch something light and I'm like, have I got a light movie for you? The Coen brothers made a rom-com with George Clooney. Do you want to watch it? Every single one of them. It starts with the Jeffrey Rush thing and they're just like, okay. The fuck is this? And it loses them and never gets them back.

50:23David Sims:Impaled in the butt with a golden glow. And screaming bitch at a car to drive. Oh God, no. No, it's a cable. It's not an Emmy. It's like a, not a cable award. It's a made up award. It's a made up award.

50:33Griffin Newman:Okay. But like, and you just, and then like, you know, oh, Clooney's here and they're doing the, and I'm like. listen to this right in chat dialogue and they're just like I don't care like it's never worked on anyone I've ever shown it to it's wild isn't that weird or am I the fool I mean I said the thing about Jeffrey Rush earlier like I don't think it's that he's bad but it's off putting he's doing the assignment and there's something about that sequence being like oh he caught his wife sleeping with the pool guy like oh I kind of get what this is like the Cohen twist on it takes time to emerge I think you need a name like Rex Rexroth and like the train stuff like you know the sequence later where it's him, you know, driving with the girl in the hotel room and Cedric the entertainer busts in.

51:13Like, all the train stuff is so funny and specific. And the Geoffrey Rush stuff feels more generic. Oh, Hollywood divorce kind of thing. I think that's part of the challenge. I would agree.

51:21David Sims:You're right. It's very broad. Right. And it's kind of nonspecific. It felt pretty grounded to me. I don't know what you mean. Kind of earthy. And you're sort of like, what does this have to do with anything? Yeah. And the answer is... It makes sense they need this big of an opening credit sequence because you kind of need to, like, palette reset immediately.

51:37Griffin Newman:you've also it's like you know you need to understand that this guy Jeffrey Rush like nailed his wife in flagrante so hard and yet Miles Massey like took him for everything right like this guy is unbeatable when you get Clooney in there and being like well and we assume that he beat you or that he was trying to sleep with the pool guy or whatever like that's the tone is coming into place who's the lady she's very funny um yes I'll look her up I meant to look her up also

52:06David Sims:So, Stacey Travis. But the movie doesn't resume with them in court. It just kind of jumps ahead and you understand that is another battle he won. I do love this setup of just this guy is so fucking good at divorce law that he's bored. Right? That he can just pull off anything. You can see how thoroughly the deck is stacked against the guy.

52:33Griffin Newman:I think it's great. Exactly. I think that's so funny. It's like, right, like, he's done it all. He's done the hardest thing. So then when Edward Herman shows up, by the way, Edward Herman also hit and freeze. Oh, God. Left and right. Chugga-chugga-choo-choo. It's so funny. And it's basically like, hi, like, I cheat on my wife all the time. Right. She's caught me doing it. I don't have a prenup. Right. And I, like, you know, I've been married to her for years. He tries to use the open marriage excuse. Right, right. Was that talked about? Was it agreed upon? Well, Clooney's like, you want to, like, put your unoffending wife out on her ass.

53:04And you propose Is that an option?

53:06Griffin Newman:She have her talk And Clooney's basically You see his eyes light up So just to get the straight That's so obscene I guess I could try

53:13David Sims:In spite of Demonstrable infidelity Infidelity in your part You propose With Clooney's performance I thought so much Of Fantastic Mr. Fox Because it's a similar Rat-a-tap vibe And they're like Oh what's left for me In my life It really feels like Wes Anderson saw this movie And was like That's a thing

53:26Griffin Newman:That's a really good call Now that Clooney Just did a Bombeck And is you know You know whatever Seems to be sort of Getting limber again Oh it's coming Can you do a Wes? Can I have live action Wes? It would be so great. It would be really good.

53:39David Sims:You know, the whole thing with Fantastic Mr. Fox is that he didn't record them in booths. Oh, yeah. They were running around in circles in the grass. His home. Yeah. And they acted out the whole movie on like mini DV cameras and he pulled that audio. So you can see there's like 90 minutes of Clooney acting through all of Fantastic Mr. Fox. Yeah, he's like doing somersaults. In a backyard. Yeah. And they'll show those clips sometimes. And I'm like, can you please put that full cut out there? I want that now. Oh, my God.

54:09Griffin Newman:But I'm just like, they're a great match. Oh, totally. He rocks Infinessement and Mr. Fox. Like, give me more of that, please. Can I have Clunes?

54:16David Sims:No, I agree.

54:17Griffin Newman:Yep.

54:17David Sims:I think just also generally, we've just been for years saying, hey, George, how about you direct fewer movies? Be a movie star, which you are better at than anyone alive.

54:27Griffin Newman:So let's just, right, let's just touch on Cluny. Now, we've done Clooney before, obviously. and we just did Oh Brother and we will be doing Burn and Hail Caesar and what else have we done over the years well we did the Oceans Oceans on Patreon we did Batman and Robin on Patreon you guys have been avoiding Soderbergh Tomorrowland we're not avoiding him it's just hard you did Tomorrowland yeah we did Tomorrowland which is not a he's not bad in it or anything but he's it's such an odd performance because he's so depressed y 'all haven't done Money Monster no Money Monster fans in here we haven't done Money Monster I did that on this at Oscar Buzz I will defend that movie really That's not great.

55:02Yeah. That movie would be good.

55:04Griffin Newman:But I mean, it's just the most crucial performance is one of the worst screen performances I've ever seen from a good actor or sometimes good. The Jack O 'Connor. He's so horrible. I've still never seen it. It just ruins the movie. Jack O 'Connell's coming back. He's back. That's the time to reappraise him. Yeah. Yeah. Well, then he should expunge that movie. He should pay to have that movie. He is a good actor in other things. He's so off in that movie. Yeah. I remember nothing about Clooney. I remember Julia being good in it. Yeah. But a bit of a boring role, but you know, anyway.

55:33David Sims:But it does feel like the last 10 years, every time he's been like, I'm ready to do the movie star thing again, he's kind of picked wrong. Like it's Money Monster, Tomorrowland, all these look good on paper.

55:44Griffin Newman:Ticket to Paradise, which I feel like everyone was so forgiving of because they were like, this is what we want you to do. It's a real wet blanket of a movie. But everyone was like, okay. I watched it on a plane, which is, it's natural. Wolves didn't even get that treatment. Had it been released in theaters, people might have again kind of been like, we appreciate you trying. Did you like Wolves? I never saw it. So bad. Okay. I think it really stinks.

56:06David Sims:I watched it after months of everyone telling me how hard it stunk. And I'm sitting there and I'm like, this is totally scratching the itch. What's everyone talking about? And then it ended. And immediately I was like, that sucked. But I was kind of riding along with it the whole time in cruise altitude and was like, whatever. It's bad oceans, right? And then it ends and you're like, that was nothing. what a waste of everyone's time and energy

56:31Griffin Newman:the audacity to be like well maybe Wolves 2 is coming and you're like don't fucking piss on my leg tell me it's raining gonna huff and puff and tell me he'll blow this house down and indeed he's just been making his own films yeah he's in Midnight Sky to his credit it's terrible no credit will be assigned for Midnight Sky we won't need to be in his own movies

56:52David Sims:but you're like do you?

56:54Griffin Newman:the thing about the Midnight Sky is watch it and you're like, I can't believe this isn't the worst movie George Clooney has directed. And like, I never saw the boys in the boat. I do need to see those boys. I did never see the boys. The tender bar was one of those things where I'm like, hey, you got to a C minus. Like, something's happening where you're improving a little. That movie was watchable. I assume boys in the boat are similar.

57:17David Sims:But Ashton is throwing smoke for us.

57:19Griffin Newman:He's really good in that.

57:20David Sims:In tender bar. That's what he does. And you're like, he'd be getting an Oscar nomination if this movie weren't directed by George Clooney.

57:26Griffin Newman:Possibly. And also, it was one of those, you know, pandemic movies that went right to streaming where it's like, you're not going to film. But Adlet's great in it. I remember the year that SuburbanCon was at TIFF. And David, you talked to Clooney then. Because I think he was trying to go around being like, look, I'm George Clooney. I directed a movie. No, but it was like the pre-release apology. Let me explain. Basically. They're like trying to tell you why his movie actually isn't that bad.

57:46David Sims:It is one of my favorite, my single favorite things that came out in the Sony hacks was his email to Amy Pascal after the first completed screening of Monuments Men. Right. Where he's like, Amy, what can I say? Sometimes you miss. I'm sorry you gave me a bunch of money. You entrusted me. Sometimes the elements just don't come together. We're all embarrassed by this one. We're going to hold our heads high and march forward. And you're like, he fucked up. Monuments Men? When that movie was announced on paper, you were like, unquestionable B -.

58:19Griffin Newman:Such a sleepy movie. That one at least made money. Shockingly made money. Because Ids of March was right before that, and that movie was... Was that a B -? I don't remember it that well. I felt like we received it okay. I despised that movie. It was literally nominated for an Academy Award for writing it. One of the most charitable Oscar nominations I've ever seen.

58:38David Sims:I think it was charitably treated like a B - when it's more of a C+. it is an F

58:44Griffin Newman:that movie is really rancid would you like it now having seen Midnight Sky no no no Ides of March is worse because it like really thinks it's smart and it's like we are this is a really really sophisticated political thriller and it's like really it's got kind of nasty it's a bad bad movie

59:00David Sims:if anything we were maybe a little kinder to it in the moment because you were like look Leatherheads was a mistake he's getting back to the kind of thing he should be making because he was on Good Night and Good Luck for such a long time I'm being like, look, that movie worked. It's not as good as Good Night and Good Luck, but he's back in his area. Yep, yep, yep. And now you're just like, the guy lost it and he was never getting it back. He got a lot.

59:21Griffin Newman:Because Leatherheads in 2008. It's a terrible movie. I saw that movie. But it's also the occasional Hail Mary you see someone throw of like, can we do kind of a Preston Sturges thing? Yeah, like you're throwing a football as you. And like Leatherheads also is bad. Yeah. But beyond it being bad, it's like also even if you make a good one, audiences are mostly just going to be like, your old timey foosball love triangle I'm just doing this kind of like take the ball come on and John Krasinski got to continue being a movie star after that despite that the whole thing was one of the big people

59:57David Sims:pushing the Krasinski project for a long time I think so well he's a voice in If I'm looking at his IMDB I forgot all about that

1:00:03Griffin Newman:I think Krasinski's really good at making friends I'm not saying Krasinski has no talent but he's really because I hear a lot about really respected people of John Krasinski and I'm always like, really? But also, there was like 10 to 15 years

1:00:17David Sims:of Damon and Clooney being like, we're telling you Krasinski is the next one of us. And it seemed to go a long way. Yes, we're writing movies with him. We're casting him. We think he's got the goods to be a multi-tool player. If, I just want to call out, the single greatest movie to play in Cinematrix. Oh, because everybody's in it. Because it has 28 list voice actors with one sentence. Yep. I just, I implore all of our listeners to look up the character posters for If. There's like 40 of them. That's all you need to memorize is just the character posters. Yep. Because there's just that one scene where I have seen the motion picture If.

1:00:56I saw it in theaters. And they all just come in for a hot second. Or Clooney might be in like the post credits. No, it's Brad Pitt who shows up at the very, very end as like a silent character.

1:01:04David Sims:But you play a Pitt Damon Clooney's a spaceman. Or Clooney. Yep. if on Cinematrix you were guaranteed one if not zero percent.

1:01:13Griffin Newman:You've got to get back into Cinematrix. I've let it fall off. But Clooney, what's interesting about Clooney is he just had that run that I just shouted out, right? The sort of late 90s, early 2000s. He did it after, of course, being a star on the biggest TV show in America, which is, you know, not chocolate or anything. And then it's like Confessions of a Dangerous Mind, which is, you know, a niche movie. it's pretty good Solaris which is a huge bomb and is a masterpiece according to like eight people one of whom is me Intolerable Cruelty Ocean's 12 And then like one year later, he does Good Night and Good Luck and Sirianna and wins the Oscar.

1:01:57Griffin Newman:Yeah. And that's one of those things of like, okay, good job. Right. You won an Oscar. Yes. You gave a fatuous speech that everyone kind of made fun of, but like you won an Oscar. Right. Smuggler. But doesn't it kind of feel like it's like over a little bit right there? Like it's like he still makes Ocean 13, Michael Clayton. He makes good movies. I was about to say, Michael Clayton is a big asterisk. But it's a new era. I see. I see. Now it's like gray hair Clooney. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like he's no longer, he's already kind of gone away from whatever this little era was, the out of sight to sort of vote tolerable.

1:02:33David Sims:I think what next, the next era is, it's Descendants, Up in the Air. Gravity. Gravity. The American, which he's good in. Oh, I remember that release.

1:02:46Griffin Newman:Burn After Reading, obviously, Michael Clayton.

1:02:49David Sims:The three best actor nominations of Michael Clayton, Up in the Air, and Descendants are like, he cut his quote to nothing.

1:02:59Griffin Newman:Right.

1:02:59David Sims:He worked with a younger or rising auteur.

1:03:03Griffin Newman:Right.

1:03:04David Sims:And he like pushed the movie to like best picture, best director status, got a best actor nomination. He did it three times. All three times people were like, is he going to win a second acting Oscar because he was sort of so in his movie star pocket? Right. And all three of those movies become like crossover. Cable classics. Middle brow hits. Yep. But also like Up in the Air, 80 domestic. Descendants, like 70 domestic. Yep. Michael Clayton, 60 domestic. It was like he is willing to like cut his quote to like$2 million and make a movie a crossover. That felt like a kind of good period for him.

1:03:36Griffin Newman:But it's like it's a somewhat distinct era. Like it's distinct from that first one. And it's almost like. I feel like it ends with like Tomorrowland. I would agree. Yeah.

1:03:44David Sims:And I'd say, which is like him trying to make a more traditional tentpole again. Right. Yeah, because Money Monster coming out the same year as Hail Caesar. Hail Caesar Money Monster. It just doesn't exist. That's the true epilogue. That's the end. But like Hail Caesar, Gravity, those are like sort of like, I'll do a supporting role to help out a project kind of things. Right. But you're right that all of these roles are now like kind of postmodern Clooney movie star persona where he's playing the sad over the hill version of himself. You build the movie around being like, this movie is aware of his star persona.

1:04:14It has to exist to make this movie. Yeah, exactly.

1:04:16David Sims:We're like showing that maybe this guy's kind of broken inside.

1:04:18Griffin Newman:Doesn't Cosamigos kind of weigh into this? No, I have exactly for you. In 2013. No, I'm going to tell you exactly what happened. Hail Caesar Money Monster 2016. He sold the company. Cosamigos. Well, tequila operation he has going on with his buddy. He ride motorcycles. House of Friends. Wear jackets. In 2017. I interviewed him. It sold, you said. He sold it in 2017. I interviewed him in 2017 for Suburbicon. And he says very blankly, like, I have more money than God. I mean, he doesn't say exactly that, but he's basically like, from now on, if I am in something or if I'm making something, it is only because I'm interested in it.

1:05:00Griffin Newman:I have – Hollywood can give me nothing, like money-wise.

1:05:03David Sims:I have so much money. You look at the CV from that point on and you're like, huh, so you were exclusively interested in boring dog shit. Shitty taste, huh?

1:05:11Griffin Newman:But like, it truly is. He's basically, and I appreciate in theory, because all the movies he made are, you know, not franchise movies. He's making original stuff. Like, yada, you know, it's like, in theory, I'm like, cool, thank you. Good job. But it's just, they're all bad. Is he a blank check director? Sure. The worst kind. You guys are going to have a great time on that series. The one who makes bad movies. Are you aware that he was in a limited series version of Catch-22? Of course not. That doesn't sound right. That can't be right. He directed the entire thing. He went to every streamer because that was Hulu.

1:05:42Griffin Newman:Yeah. And then Midnight Sky was Netflix. Tender Bar was Amazon. And I swear there's an Apple one in there too. Oh, Wolves. Wolves. Boys in the Boat was Amazon. Yes, that was also Amazon. Like he just hopped around the streamers collecting bags of money to give him C+. You know, C+. Everybody, take your C+.

1:05:59David Sims:No, Catch-22 was him and Grant Haslov wrote and directed. And he was going to play the lead. And at the last second, he decided he was too old. So he cast Chris for Abbott. And he plays... Shyscough, he plays a smaller role.

1:06:10Griffin Newman:Right. But, you know, big Kyle Chandler and Lewis Pullman and, you know, lots of. Doesn't exist. Doesn't exist. I mean, and I, look, if I'm Clooney, I can be like, well, the pandemic. You know, but it's like not just the pandemic. You have, he's a smart guy. When I interviewed him, he was so smart. He's married to this, you know, genius. He's like political, yada, yada. But like, I'm like, yeah, but he's kind of middle brow. Like. He is. And it's like when he was picking your up in the airs, your Descendants. Those are middle brown movies. Even Michael Clayton. They're just like really good ones.

1:06:44Griffin Newman:I mean, Descendants is just okay.

1:06:45David Sims:And up in the air.

1:06:46Griffin Newman:He was making like incredible, intelligent adult popcorn.

1:06:51David Sims:And then suddenly it's like he's making unseasoned vegetables every time. Yes. He's just boiling some broccoli. But like puray. He's like puraying boiled unseasoned broccoli. Does he have bad taste? because he works with so many good people. Medium taste. I guess so.

1:07:08Griffin Newman:And then he's, yes, he's smart enough. Look, I don't know. I have great taste in my opinion. Can you direct Boys in the Boat better? No, but I'm saying like, and if you're like, you have unlimited money and clout, David, what do you want to make? I'd probably make a bunch of dog shit. I'm not that, like, you have to be a certain kind of person. And I do think pressure helps. Yes. You know, like, it's better to be under pressure. Clooney's under no pressure. So, like, that's probably kind of bad in a way.

1:07:35David Sims:Let's also call out, on top of the fucking Casamigos money. Yeah.

1:07:39Griffin Newman:He's also already rich, we should point out.

1:07:42David Sims:Right. Already rich, but also Gravity. Mm-hmm. The FX budget was so huge on that movie, and it was developed to be Angelina Jolie and Robert Downey Jr., and they both drop out late. Right. And when he goes to Bullock and Clooney, he's like, I can't offer you money because the money's all on screen. You both get back end. I believe Clooney got tens of millions of dollars for that movie.

1:08:03Griffin Newman:I think he made a ton of money for that movie.

1:08:04David Sims:Sandra Bullock made like$100 million. I hope she made more, yeah.

1:08:08Griffin Newman:Well, I mean, Sandra Bullock made, again, the kind of money where you're like, huh, she just kind of stopped making movies, huh? Because she just doesn't. That's always what I want to happen, especially for actresses.

1:08:15David Sims:I truly think she made$100 million. I think she did. I mean, it was a huge hit.

1:08:21Griffin Newman:How much money did the movie make? He made like$30 million or$40 million. How about the moon? The moon got a lot. The moon, they had to shoot at it with a big cannon.

1:08:29David Sims:The money, they shot a big bag of money at it. It's in orbit around the moon, as we speak. No, it was such a big hit. And because it was seen as so risky, they offered them so much of first dollar. Yeah. Yeah. So let's defend intolerable cruelty. Yeah, I was going to say.

1:08:44David Sims:So we go, yeah, Jeffrey Rush, extended sequence. And then we go to Edward Herman, who loves trains.

1:08:50Griffin Newman:Do we think he has a full, like, he has to, the trains have to be involved for him to get it up? There's this sort of, like, quiet acknowledgement of, like, trains are involved with sex for him. I mean, what's his line he says to Queenie where it's, like,

1:09:02David Sims:She lets me be myself. Yes. Oh, he's so happy about it, too. He's so fucking happy. But there's weird sex stuff before that, too, because you see Clooney in the courtroom with the woman who's like, and he built devices with my vacuum cleaner. That's the separate. Which is like a preview of Burn After Reading with a sex machine. One of the greatest.

1:09:18Griffin Newman:Yes. I mean. Slow burn bits of all time. But also, it just feels very Cohen's of like, right, let's cast the most milquetoast middle-aged lady with like big hair and glasses and have her be like, I was his sexual slave. Yes. while like Clooney and Paul Adelstein are just like bickering with each other it's also the kind of thing

1:09:35David Sims:that the Coens love to just like come in on it's just like it's so funny that there's just this fucking whatchamacallit the like the typist the court stenographer oh yeah when she comes in later being like do you want a milk bone wolf wolf or whatever but there's just like if that didn't exist the Coens would create it that you're like so you're telling me some disaffected middle aged woman has to just sit there at a typewriter and type up every insane thing said in a courtroom I'm thinking of the woman in the courtroom in this one. I'm thinking of the woman in the trailer park in No Country for Old Men.

1:10:05Are they the best at, like, middle-aged women with dowdy hair just being flat-afficked? Hilarious. It's vital to them. Yes.

1:10:13Griffin Newman:They're gestalt or whatever. Yeah. It's essential to them. But also, I guess they've never made a legal movie before, right? You know, like, the courtroom is a great venue for them, to be silly. Yeah. The Coens. and all of the courtroom scenes in this movie are so funny. Yeah. Poetry recitation, objection around a strangling witness, I'm going to allow it. Like stuff like that. Of course. So broad. Just like this sort of get smart joke of like, Heinz the Baron Krauss von Espy and then the bailiffs keep opening doors and announcing it further and further and further. Let's also call out Katie. She specifically said a silly man.

1:10:52Griffin Newman:I love that. Who's that guy? Who is that guy?

1:10:55David Sims:What's his name? Jonathan Hardesty?

1:10:57Griffin Newman:Yes, you're right. Jonathan Haderie.

1:11:01David Sims:He's the lawyer in fucking Margaret. He's the guy who owns all the prisons, the for-profit prison monger in Veep. Right, yeah, he did a bunch of Veeps. His daughter is Mary Holland, who Tim Simons gets hooked up with. Okay. He's like in a thousand things. He looks so different in this than everything else that I always forget it's him. But he's got the eyes. He always has those eyes, but you're right. He usually plays a kind of like Rumpel Menchie. Right. Yeah. He's so fucking funny in this. He's so good. But Katie, you alluded to this, but the introduction of Clooney is through his teeth. Oh my God, it's so good.

1:11:37David Sims:That were part of his interest to him.

1:11:38Griffin Newman:Right, because like, oh brother, it's his hair, here it's his teeth.

1:11:41David Sims:The bleaching, right? I just like this immediate, like we're dealing with the ultimate movie star. Yeah. And we're starting out by showing you how the sausage gets made. It gets made of like how much work goes into making this guy look like this. And it helps balance the scales of the women and the plastic surgery, I think, because I do like the way that it gets at like rich Hollywood people. Like that part of it like works less well to me, like the women sitting by the pool and talking about their liposuction and stuff like that. Like that again feels more broad and Coenzy. But having that emphasis on Clooney, I think, helps balance it out.

1:12:13And like the pan to his like movie star smile on the score, you know, swells as he's standing at the desk. Like it brings it back to being something more than just cynical.

1:12:22David Sims:Using suspicious minds into the sport. Yeah, it's so good. It's so good. And it also, it's just like, it gives you a drum roll. So when you get to the full reveal of Clooney's full face, because we're seeing him in the chair first. Then we're seeing him in the car with reflections. You're only seeing the teeth and nothing else. And you're just seeing him test out the teeth in the rear view mirror and everything. It feels so satisfying when you're getting the full Clooney burst. but I also like that it's kind of a everyone wants to be Clark Gable, even me thing. Yeah. Of like, this guy is a construction.

1:12:53David Sims:These people are constructions. Yep. No one is just like this. Yeah. And these people are very caught up in their reputation and their mythology and the Massey prenup and all these things. And then we're just seeing him, right. He's an ultimate conqueror, but he's so bored. He can barely get it up for this stuff anymore.

1:13:11Griffin Newman:He's torn down his house twice just for fun. Yes. Like, right. We never see his house, do we? He has a tab at the Mercedes dealership. We don't think we ever see his house. Wait, no, it's at the end. That's where the house invasion is because she's in his house, isn't she? Yeah. And you see his tennis court. Right. But, like, he's a person with no interests. He's only good at this. Yeah. Well, that's what I mean. He's created, of course, an unbreakable prenup agreement that is, like, legally profound. Which I just think is, like,

1:13:40David Sims:a perfect screwball thing. Great device. Just, like, you come up with the idea of something that is so important and so huge that you will never break down and explain. They never get into what makes the Massey prenup so good. If you tear a piece of paper, does that render it legally invalid? In this movie it does. It's unclear to me if that's real.

1:13:56Griffin Newman:But that's why Richard Jenkins putting it all in the briefcase and running away is really funny. You're like, he's going to tape it up.

1:14:04David Sims:The Massey prenup. But then also we should acknowledge Edward Herman is busted by a camera crew led by Gus Petsch.

1:14:10Griffin Newman:Gus Petsch, played by Cedric the Entertainer, who's like firmly in his early post-barbershop, you know, kind of original Kings of Comedy where it's just like, get this guy in movies. Ten minutes of Cedric, please. He's going to nail your ass. Right, you're ordering it and then you're like, and you know what? Ten minutes of Cedric.

1:14:28David Sims:Have him in there. Gus Petsch likes doing one thing.

1:14:30Griffin Newman:Nail an ass. He's an ass and he nails it. Man, I would have kicked his ass if he busted in on me. You would have nailed his ass for trying to nail your ass? Yeah, I would have took that camera and I would have fucking nailed his ass with it. I do love, this is the only period where it would still be like an over the shoulder. It's less fun if it's a stupid cell phone. And he's got a huge light like blaring on that poor woman in her underwear.

1:14:54David Sims:But you're right. It is a thing that I think people couldn't verbalize at the time where they were like, how can this movie exist in a modern reality TV landscape but yet everyone is talking like they are in the Great Depression? Yeah, which it makes perfect. Like it's fine if you want to set that up But like getting people to actually buy into it without actually seeing it is the hard part.

1:15:13Griffin Newman:Yes. So, yes, he successfully defends Rex, Rex, Roth, Rex, Rex, Rex, Rex, Rex, Rex, Rex, Rex, Rex, Rex, Rex, Rex, Rex, Rex, Rex, Rex, Rex, Rex, Rex. This is also Edward Herman, of course, is like right in the middle of his sweetie run on Gilmore Girls. So it's fun to see him be a rascal.

1:15:29David Sims:Yeah.

1:15:31Griffin Newman:and even though Marilyn Catherine Zia Jones is ostensibly in the right basically they've got the great showdown with Richard Jenkins you know that's the Kirshner's in Kentucky Kirshner Kirshner's in Kentucky are you nuts have you forgotten Kirshner?

1:15:45David Sims:This was the scene I'd watched the movies a couple days ago and my girlfriend was disappointed because she was like oh I've never seen that one and I was like I just watched it and I just show you the one scene so like show you the thing that no one gets and I think you'll lock into it immediately and I just showed her this one scene and it's just like a three minute symphony of dialogue yep it is basically just two two shots yes reverse yes right around a table just on fire yeah just like precision swish watch timing and the overlapping threads that keep circling back the way that it implies the relationship between jenkins and cluny i was like oh sorry about the award or whatever it was and he's like taunting him over the pastry he's like there's so much history between those two guys he just knows exactly how to like cuck him and make him have to be in his backport and defensive

1:16:33Griffin Newman:I mean you know he's just perfect at that it's not like early in Richard Jenkins'

1:16:40David Sims:career obviously he's been working for so long the 2000s are when Hollywood start finally giving him his flowers he's on Six Feet Under at this point

1:16:48Griffin Newman:yes but he was like you know a spark plug in that show because he was dead spoiler alert for the opening seconds of Six Feet Under but he dies

1:16:58David Sims:but he comes back a lot in the early seasons but he's a ghost and he'll come in

1:17:00Griffin Newman:and like be sarcastic and all that and like he's in Man Who Wasn't There also as a lawyer from what I remember we haven't done that episode yet and the Coens love him and I remember they gave some interview where you're like if you need like a sort of milk toast fussy guy like Richard Jenkins of course Farley Brothers

1:17:18David Sims:also used him a lot he's in all of their he's in Me, Myself, and Irene

1:17:21Griffin Newman:he's in Something About Mary

1:17:23David Sims:Tiny Role he's really good in Hall Pass He plays a pickup artist in Hall Pass. That sounds good. I've never seen Hall Pass. Just Ricky Jenkins with like a fedora and like Ed Hardy shirts. How many Coens is he in? He's in Burn After Reading after this. Oh, he's in Burn After Reading. Right. So three? I think that's it. That's his year. The Burn After Reading, Visitor. Is that the same year as the Visitor? Yeah. Stepbrothers are all the same year.

1:17:48Griffin Newman:Stepbrothers is obviously his peak and American acting's peak. Yes. Would you say? Yeah. I don't give a fuck. It's like, you can use that any time.

1:17:58David Sims:But it's all the fucking dinosaur monologue.

1:18:01Griffin Newman:Well, obviously the dinosaur stuff at the end is amazing.

1:18:04David Sims:Which is entirely improvised. Do you know that? Yes, yes. That McKayla's just like, just come up with something. There's the moment where he starts doing the T-Rex arms and he looks down at them as if like remembering what he's lost.

1:18:16Griffin Newman:Do you know what we're talking about, Ben? I haven't seen the movie in a while, but. he just tells the boys at the end like i also had dreams once i wanted to be a dinosaur and

1:18:25David Sims:they're like telling them to grow yes i do remember this he spends the whole movie being like you have to be adults you have to get a job you have to give responsibility at the end of the movie at the catalina wine mixer they're like both doing jobs and they're like talking about taxes with each other joylessly and he's just like i can't believe i'm gonna say this but this is depressing you guys need to go back to doing what you were doing before and they were like dad we like like Roth IRAs like come on like and then he's just like no no and his big emotional speech about like not losing your flame is that when I was a child I wanted to be a dinosaur and my parents told me you can't do that and I gave up with my dreams and I thought someday I'd circle back to being a dinosaur and I never had the chance and then they just keep going like what do you mean I was so good at I put my arms at my side and I would roar and they're like but you're a human you can never be a dinosaur and he's like that's what I let them convince me wow I mean that's crazy that

1:19:25Griffin Newman:he improvised that's such a good choice Randy here is gonna eat your dick like Kobayashi Step Brothers is still good right there's no problem with Step Brothers no it's five stars the whole the best Jenkins apart from shut the fuck up is that it or when's it when John C. Riley just does the long monologue about how Mary Steenberg is gonna wanna fuck him That's like the introduction to those characters. So long.

1:19:50David Sims:From my chest cubes down to my ball throw. And then I think he breaks a plate. Anyway. Jenkins, sorry. You know what? Maybe Richard Jenkins in. What's up? He's an if. Just putting that out there. He is an if. He's an if. He plays a little wooden artist model version of himself.

1:20:06Griffin Newman:He hasn't been in a movie, excepting his voice role in if, since Nightmare Alley, which he's very good in. And I don't, I mean. Has he done like four shitty TV shows? He played like Jeffrey Dahmer's dad in the Jeffrey Dahmer thing. Thank God. A few. And now he's in the Ed Brubaker adaptation of Criminal. Yes.

1:20:27David Sims:Which I'm very excited for. Ed Brubaker, friend of the show. Inexplicably one of those people who's so important to David and I who is now a listener and texts with us. Shout out to Brubaker. But in whatever recent Coen's episode we were saying where's Jenkins been and he's like. He's crushing it on Criminal. Okay.

1:20:42Griffin Newman:Which is going to be on Amazon I think. I believe. video. But I want him back. I need more Jenkins in my life. We need him back. He introduced Divine Joy Randolph at the Critics Circle the year she won, which was what? 2024? When was that? Three? Three. For Holdovers, because they did some tiny movie together that no one ever saw. You guys have talked about this on air. I've heard you talk about this in another episode. Why did you guys talk about Richard Jenkins already? Because this is the first Coen's he was in. I have no idea why it's come up before.

1:21:14David Sims:I don't know. He came up recently. Whatever. Whatever. Yeah. So, yeah.

1:21:20Griffin Newman:So all that. Basically, what happens within Miles, before he destroys Marilyn in the courtroom, they go out to dinner.

1:21:30David Sims:I'm sorry. To finish giving Richard Jenkins his flowers. The thing that's so beautiful about that scene that all rests on Jenkins' shoulders is how quickly he goes from kind of like begrudgingly accepting the way that Clooney bites him down to at the end being so emotionally overcome with like, I'm going to take my briefcase and go home. Like that Clooney's destroyed

1:21:51Griffin Newman:his spirit. Right. Yes. But Clooney asks Data Jones out to dinner sort of as a kind of like, again, extension of his boredom of like, maybe I just take her out to dinner. Like, if she's, you know, it's such an ethical, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, again, legally is he allowed to do this? I have that question, but who cares?

1:22:11David Sims:I do think there's like a little bit of like Ethan Hunt, Elsa Faust in this movie where it's just like they immediately lock eyes. Game recognized game. Yeah. We're the only two people on the planet who operate at this level. Yeah. I mean, the way they order wine together is like a rat-a-tat dialogue thing is gorgeous.

1:22:29Griffin Newman:So their dinner scene is nice. This is where I, I'm sorry, Catherine. I think she's like good. I wish someone was amazing in this role. Okay.

1:22:40David Sims:Because Clooney is elite in this one. Can I get my take?

1:22:43Griffin Newman:Yeah, what's your take?

1:22:43David Sims:After watching this movie...

1:22:45Griffin Newman:And is there a better...

1:22:47David Sims:I was like, I really want to watch Lady Eve again. Sure. Because it's not like this is a quiet remake of Lady Eve, but I do think it pulls a lot of things from Lady Eve.

1:22:56Griffin Newman:Obviously, for fans who don't know the Lady Eve, it's one of the better movies ever made. Yes. Barbara Stanwyck and Henry Fonda, Preston Sturgis movies. And it's a movie about an elite con artist,

1:23:08David Sims:card sharp who multiple times romances the heir to a an ale fortune there's a lot of difference between beer and ale and it's a similar movie where there's this kind of like she keeps running different cons on him based on who has the power in the situation and you're part of the mystery of the movie is like when are there real feelings and when are there not and what's motivating what and when is it just about money and whatever. But that movie is all basically told from her perspective. Even though you meet him first. No, he's the mark. You're getting her doing the kind of ocean style, here's what I'm going to do.

1:23:47David Sims:And you have the scenes where she's going back to her father and explaining what's changing in her mind. So you're not sure if she's going to be able to pull it off, but the fun is her outlining what her intentions or her plans are and how things get in the way. In this movie, the character is kind of a sphinx. it's clearly what they're sort of enjoying is that you're watching the film and it has these gaps where you're like wait what just happened why did we just cut ahead six months and that you need to untangle it after the fact only at the end do you realize everything she's done

1:24:15Griffin Newman:right they're hiding the movie's biggest twist which they want to hide because it's a twist of like when she reappears with Billy Bob Thornton that's a total con we gotta get there but I guess that's but I think it means

1:24:30David Sims:that there's not that much she can play. It's obvious to say, well, isn't the best version of this Julia Roberts? Because you just imagine the whole movie having the liar and a thief. And she's sassy. Energy, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You see this scene of them at the dinner table together and you imagine that - That scene in Ocean's Eleven. Exactly, which is just perfect.

1:24:48Griffin Newman:Who are the big other kind of, you know, elite female stars who could - Okay, not to conjure leatherheads again, but could Renee Zellweger have done it? No. No, you don't think so? I don't think she's a good actor. Interesting. Wow. And she's my big problem with Down With Love. See, I love her and Down With Love. I do not. Yeah, she couldn't have done it. Down With Love, I guess. She kind of have to pick one or the other. But obviously, she and Clooney, right, they did try at chemistry later.

1:25:16David Sims:He's already done a Julia movie. He's already done Michelle Pfeiffer, someone who could have done this. She could have done it. Yeah. Who else is in that?

1:25:24Griffin Newman:Michelle Pfeiffer makes sense. She's like on the cusp of being a little aged out or whatever. but yes. Halle Berry is huge at this point but I don't think she would have worked in this role.

1:25:33David Sims:No. Comedy not her strong suit. No. But you're like who's in goddess territory is an adult woman. Like it can't be a girl.

1:25:40Griffin Newman:Right. It can't be like Scarlett Johansson or whoever the new stars are. Right. Like you know. Yeah. I don't know. You know sure Julia.

1:25:49David Sims:I mean. See I'm just saying like if you cast Julia in this and they obviously have such good chemistry and they're biting back and forth at each other I still don't know if Julia makes this part explode because part of this role in construction is... You don't know what's going on with her. You're not seeing the hand she's holding until the very end. Julianne Moore? Julianne Moore could have been excellent. She can kind of do everything, right? She could have been excellent. She does her own divorce lawyer rom-com.

1:26:15Griffin Newman:Laws of attraction, not exactly an endorsement of any for doing comedy, right?

1:26:20David Sims:I just had the thought while watching this movie, and you miss the fun of the surprise of the complete unraveling at the end and realizing what you didn't realize you'd been watching the whole time. See Billy Bob Thornton on the soap opera is like a key delight that you don't get if you know what's going on. The Julia Duffy scenes, which I agree with you, are kind of the broadest and the least interesting parts of the movie, instead had more of a sense of who is this character? What is animating her? Her planning, and it felt like the movie was more of a tennis match and less. We're seeing it all through Cooley's perspective and she's unknowable.

1:26:54David Sims:I think there's a certain degree to which this part, as written, couldn't be played better than it is. Maybe you're right. Because the meat of the role is actually not depicted on screen.

1:27:04Griffin Newman:Yeah. And it is supposed to be, like, right, you're this beautiful, sphinx-like woman, and she's totally good at that. Yeah. And so my suggestion of, uh, um, uh, what about Holly Hunter? Cohen's collaborator. She's older than Clooney. By three years. Would she work as the, like, gliding?

1:27:22David Sims:No, but she is. All right, the one I was gonna throw out. And they're great in Oh Brother together. They have their back and forth. That's true. This is the other thing. You're like, who hasn't he worked with, right? Already at this point. He tends to work well with women. He's done Peacemaker with Kidman. There's a universe in which Kidman could have done this. Kidman could have done this.

1:27:37Griffin Newman:Yes, Kidman absolutely could have done this. This is an era where she could have done something like this. Yeah. Stepford Wives is around this time or whatever. This would have been a much better choice than Stepford Wives.

1:27:46David Sims:But he's basically worked with all the A-listers in his age group. Yeah. Sandra Bullock could have done it? Yes. He doesn't do that until Gravity.

1:27:56Griffin Newman:She could have. This is like, she's still a big star. Yeah, this congeniality isn't too far away from this. But it's definitely, because by the time she was in Crash, which is just a couple years later, you were kind of like, oh, Sandy Bullock. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then she disappears again into Blindside. Uh-huh. The other one I was going to throw out is Charlize. I think she could have done it. She wasn't doing comedies then. No, this is the year she does Monster. She's not really a proven actor yet. So she's not big enough yet to hold her own against Clooney. I don't think so. Yeah, that's fair.

1:28:26Griffin Newman:Clooney never worked with Winslet, did he? I'm looking at, like, best actress. With Winslet? I don't know if Winslet would have worked in this. Cameron Diaz. No. It would have been too broad. I'm not finding an obvious, like, you know. Uma. Yeah, Uma's, look, this is the Kill Bill year. Yeah. Uma's a little in the wilderness, too. Kill Bill kind of, you know, is her first big hit in a long time. How's Uma comedy like this, though? I don't know. Like, fast. Uma's a weird one. That's not her strong voice. Ben just said solely Uma and then pulled the mic back away. He's like, that's it. Mic drop.

1:29:01David Sims:I mean, Blanchett's the one I think could have been interesting, but no one would have considered her in this way. Yeah, she's really in the wilderness in this period, right? Like, pre-Aviator?

1:29:09Griffin Newman:How dare you? The missing? Yeah, doesn't she, like, breaks out with Elizabeth and then makes, like, eight terrible movies? She's fucking it up. I'm obsessed with her prestige run post-Elizabeth pre-Oscar. Yeah. Where it's truly like, you know, a relief pitcher coming in and throwing like eight wild pitches or whatever. And then suddenly, like, you know, we're like, oh, OK, she got it. She got the Oscar. And after that, she was on the straight and narrow.

1:29:33David Sims:In the same period, Kate Winslet, like two out of every three movies she makes are nothing. And yet none of them stick to her. Yeah. She was kind of a heflon where it was like, we all love Winslet. She had like three Oscar nominations.

1:29:45Griffin Newman:She would just occasionally, you know, do even an iris. And that would be enough to be like, yeah, we still love Kate Winslet if she shows up. And so, yes, nobody thought about the lives of David Gale or the hideous kinkies. Just to name some movies. Starring in Titanic probably gets you there, too. I don't think he plans to never make anything. Yeah, Titanic was kind of this film that had lingered in the consciousness in some way. I don't wonder why. Anyway, so he annihilates her in court. So the next sequence is, right, is Clooney. Well, hang on. Wait, wait, wait. There is the scene where they go to the diner with Cedric the Entertainer and Paula Epstein orders Babyfield Greens and the waitress, another perfect middle-aged woman said, what did you just call me?

1:30:23Griffin Newman:What the fuck color would it be? And Cleary orders like an overcooked steak with ranch dressing or something. Right. He says, can I get a green salad?

1:30:29David Sims:And she goes, what other color would it be? Babyfield Greens. Who's that? That's like if round is funny. Like that's perfect Cohen's service worker comedy. Like every line in this movie is funny. I agree. It's just like a little kind of like jewelry box.

1:30:44Griffin Newman:Can I say, and I don't know if you guys agree with this, I didn't announce this yet, but I do think the first half is better than the second half. I do think, it doesn't run out of steam exactly, but the first half where the stakes are so defined and Clooney is so on fire and the courtroom scenes are so fun, whereas the second half where it's a little heavier on the plot twists and the kind of like, you know, who's zooming who. I do too. It's funny. I'm not mad at it.

1:31:12David Sims:I'm just saying. Yeah, I just, okay, so this was another reason I rewatched Lady Eve last night is like Lady Eve is ostensibly a three-act movie. Yeah, I mean, you're talking about one of the best movies ever. I know, I know, but I was just like, there's a similar thing going on that's very unorthodox in the year that this movie is coming out, right? Lady Eve is like a three-act movie if you actually look at the story, but act one is like 50 minutes long.

1:31:35Griffin Newman:Right.

1:31:36David Sims:Act two is like 20 minutes long, and act three is like 10 minutes long. And I think that was a thing back in the screwball era where they were just like this kind of diagrammatic. You need to build your three acts and each one needs to be half an hour. Right. And it needs to be like this clean. They were sort of like everything is as long as it can justify being while still being entertaining. And if the boring part of the movie needs to like you need to get through that faster than you get through it faster. Or if something more interesting can happen, then there's four acts like who cares. Right.

1:32:05Right.

1:32:06David Sims:the first 45 minutes of this movie is the disillusion of the marriage to Edward Herman right almost half of the film is basically act one and so then it's a movie where the acts speed up as they go along yeah because Billy Bob Thornton shows up you're like oh this is the rest of the movie and it's like not really he's kind of in and out very quickly

1:32:26Griffin Newman:that feels again sort of like Jenkins of them being like we just worked with this guy we loved him he's so funny for one second in this it's like a 20 minute act too Yeah. But to conclude Act 1 is he nails her ass with Heinz the Baron Krauss von Espy, who after he sets her up by having her cry about how much she loves Rex Rax Roth, brings in this guy and is basically the guy who's like, I found her a rich, stupid husband. He's the Tenzing Norgay.

1:32:56David Sims:Silly man. The Tenzing Norgay. It's very true. Just any time they come up with a good combination of sounds that you can repeat six times.

1:33:03Griffin Newman:And we should just ask, does anyone have any bones in the house here? Oh, they want the bones. The milk bones. The crunchy for the teeth. May we. There are no maybes now. May we. But of course. See, I think he's funny, but I think stuff is funnier later than the Baron. He's broader than the stuff, than like Wee Kirk of the Hills or whatever in Vegas. I'm really into like Lumiere from Beauty and the Beast being in any movie. Like, I just like that kind of a guy. With a tiny dog, ideally. With a tiny dog.

1:33:36David Sims:Oh, so you love Minus, man. Does it have fun? Is Jerry Orbach? Big pleasure. Oh, Duchesne. Yeah. Beat Clooney for that Descendants Oscar. And that was their makeup. Yeah.

1:33:49Griffin Newman:The crazy thing is that he, who did he, there's a crazy one he beat in there. Brad Pitt. Yeah. Jesus, right. That's true. Yeah. Anyway, so. So then Billy Bob Thorne shows up. He annihilates Marilyn, and then as you say, it's like six months later. Yeah. Right? And it's sort of like he's back to being a nobody. I mean, back to being poor.

1:34:14David Sims:You end that sequence with her, with Julia Duffy and her girl gang, saying like, next time I got to find a better husband without Klaus, without a Barron Heinz fund, yeah, Espy.

1:34:29Griffin Newman:Yeah. Right? She also finds Jeffrey Rush. She has the one scene in the middle there. She finds him in the alley clutching his trophy. Yes.

1:34:36David Sims:But basically you see her call the shot of like, I'm going to do it again. I'm going to do it better. And I'm not going to have a Tenzig Norgay that he can use to take me down. Because she's sort of activated by like, this guy caught me. I need to now get the next point on him.

1:34:51Griffin Newman:Right. She thought she had the perfect murder. She didn't. So you assume what she's done is this oil baron who's so stupid. and she like gets the prenup signed with Massey and Massey's like, okay, what's she up to? And then he emotionally tears up the prenup at their ceremony. Right. And Massey's like, okay, she's a genius. He gets it, the barbecue sauce, right? He eats it.

1:35:12David Sims:The confidence game of she hired me. Right. Right? She respects me. She wants the prenup. Right. I know what she's after, this guy's money. And yet she's hiring me to do everything seemingly she can. But she's doing the long con of,

1:35:27Griffin Newman:You think it's your idea to get rid of the prenup, right? Right. But of course, the twist is this is all staged. Yes.

1:35:33David Sims:He's so depressed at the wedding. He sees Billy Bob eat the prenup. He's just like, she's a genius. That's the moment where I think he truly falls in love with her. Where it goes from being a lust to like, this is the only other genius on this planet. Well, and when he realizes the thing with the prenup and he says to her the line, like, now that this marriage is winding down while she's standing in her wedding dress, which is so funny. Right, right. It is. he's like mission accomplished. You got what you wanted. Exactly. You could divorce him tomorrow. Somewhere in there before that is where we first meet the senior partner who has the Living Without Intestines magazine in his waiting room.

1:36:06It's very Hutsucker Proxy.

1:36:08Griffin Newman:It's also a gag that it feels like gets repeated in Serious Man. And it's another gag that anytime I show this to her girlfriend, they would further back up in the couch somehow. I feel like you're paying even less attention. They're like, yeah, well that scene didn't really work for me.

1:36:24David Sims:The people I remember who were Coen's fans at the time were like, the movie sucks. It doesn't feel like them, except for there's this old guy and there's this thing with this assassin named Wheezy Joe. I mean, those things are obviously very Coen. Everyone told me those are the only two things that feel like them.

1:36:37Griffin Newman:Yes. Wheezy Joe is definitely right out of Raising Arizona. Yes.

1:36:41David Sims:But just talking about the inherent darkness, Katie, in this movie where it's so surprising that all these different people attach themselves to it and we're like lusting after this script. the Coens are latching on to like an honest cynicism within this story right you could imagine the original version of the script and other versions that people directed being much frothier and having a sort of like they both make each other good people kind of ending yeah and this movie is based on the cynicism of how we basically set up an industry of marriage right that like marriage has like morphed from being this like property merger thing to ostensibly being a modern thing based on love, but also we're all kind of quietly ignoring the fact that the big concern is always the money at the center of the thing.

1:37:25David Sims:And that there are people who become fucking millionaires many, many times over at being able to explode marriages or protect marriages or whatever it is. That all of this is so callous and this notion of a prenup and immediately, like, at the beginning of your marriage being like, and by the way, I don't trust you. Exactly. Right? Well, it made me wonder, because like, Joel Cohen's obviously been very happily married for a long time like was ethan going through any divorces in this period like is he divorced once very young right before he met francis joel and ethan have both been married to the same people for decades now ethan's marriage seems interesting i would say both have very interesting marriages

1:38:03Griffin Newman:yes they both seem to have interesting marriages and they're very they seem very content in their

1:38:07David Sims:interest exactly in in their own ways they are both major wife guys but there's the joel divorce that he kind of never talks about.

1:38:14Griffin Newman:And it does feel like the early movies. Really pre-Blood Simple. Yes. I mean, Joe Cohen obviously is always doing People Magazine spreads. And he just won't touch that one topic. It's like, Joe Cohen doesn't talk about his personal life at all.

1:38:26David Sims:I'm hearing a rumor that he's going to announce his new era soon. He's going to go on his new Girlfriends podcast.

1:38:33Griffin Newman:Imagine. Imagine if... If Francis McDormand had a podcast? Are you kidding? If Taylor Swift dumped Tyler Kelsey, whatever his name is. Travis Kelsey. Sorry. And you know who he is. I'm not trying to be a sports ball guy over here. And was like, I've got a new boyfriend. Joel Cohen. And she hooked up with Joel Cohen? Yeah. That would be a great idea. Would she finally make her movie in that case? That's the thing. She's in Hollywood now?

1:38:56David Sims:Four years ago, everything was pointing towards serious cinephile Taylor Swift. And then we just took a hard left turn. To the NFL. If only she had broken up the McDormand-Cohen marriage.

1:39:07Griffin Newman:She also took a hard left turn to doing like a two-year tour that was like the most successful music tour in the history of sung words. Searchlights just saying like, hey, Taylor, where's the deal? We signed four years ago.

1:39:19David Sims:I was going to say the most successful thing in the history of the economy.

1:39:22Griffin Newman:It was like a country unto itself.

1:39:26David Sims:You look at the stats from the Aeros tour and it's like every city she went to for that week had the kind of economy boost that is usually reserved for the Olympics. Oh, yeah. Yeah, my mom and sister went to Indianapolis and there was like a thing in the airport greeting the people who were there for Taylor Swift. It was bananas. And you're like, oh, the one week she was in Indianapolis. Yeah, it was bigger than the Colts probably. The city went up two billion dollars. Yep. Yeah.

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1:40:23David Sims:You have in the hotel hallway after the wedding where Clooney basically like monologues to Catherine Zeta-Jones of like, aren't you in love with me? Right? Right.

1:40:32Griffin Newman:It all happens in Vegas.

1:40:34David Sims:We're the two stars of this movie. Can we, like, get over it and admit it? And he kisses her, and she kisses back, and then basically has no reaction, walks away, and he does the, you fascinate me. Fascinate me. And this is, like, six months after the bill about Thor's wedding. Yes, this is the six months. Like, we've gotten...

1:40:47Griffin Newman:But, like, right, but it's, like, he's operating on the premise of she is divorced and about to collect more money than even I have. Yes. And it's a con. I mean, what we're... Look, just to spoil the movie, like, she's conning him. She has arranged it so that he will marry her in Vegas while he's at his convention.

1:41:06David Sims:Oh, I'm sorry. The kiss in the hallway happens after she brings Billy Bob to him the first time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The introduction of Billy Bob. Oh, but right. That's in his office. It was about well before Vegas. He's like, let's cut through this shit, right?

1:41:18Griffin Newman:Post the marriage. And yes. At the Vegas convention of divorce lawyers.

1:41:23David Sims:Right. She shows up looking like a trillion dollars. With the big dog. And he's immediately kind of like goo-goo-eyed at the idea that she's worth more than he is now. Yes. And this is where the big like power shift happens is she gets a call that Julia Duffy had died. That's after they go to that dinner, which is so lovely and like sad, where they're both like realizing they're not happy with what they've gotten. But she's faking it. But she's faking it. But at the time, it feels very sincere. Yes, it does.

1:41:53Griffin Newman:Where they're both like, right, there's nothing left for us in the field except for love. We've climbed the tallest mountain. We've achieved everything else. Exactly.

1:42:00David Sims:There's nothing left. Right. And then she gets this call and she's like, my friend, she had all this money, she had all these divorces. She died from, you know, recovery of another. The perforated ulcer. Well, because she, yeah, she couldn't take the medicine for the ulcer because of plastic surgery. Right. And she's like, and she didn't have anybody. Yeah. And Clooney's like, we have to get married right now. It's a thing I love that they have not slept together. But it is this kind of thing. It's a fairly chaste movie. Well, I was going to say it's like postcode movies where they have to sort of skip over the implication that the characters have ever slept together.

1:42:32David Sims:And I guess in some ways it's a more traditional. You might just say like, I like your look. Will you please take my hand in marriage? They go get married so they can finally kiss on the bed. But he's basically he just makes like a logical plea to her of like, shouldn't we just be together? Let's just get this over with. I'll give you the Massey prenup. Yep. Right? I'm so in this for love that I want you to know that I'm not after your money.

1:42:57Griffin Newman:Right. They go to the little travel.

1:42:59David Sims:And then they get married and she tears up the mess.

1:43:00Griffin Newman:The weakirk of the heather. She does the tearing up the prenup thing three times in this movie. In their marital. And the first two times it's fake. The third time it's real. Yeah. But right. I mean, obviously, this is all a long con. She is taking his money by marrying him. she was never married to Doyle who's a soap opera actor and you're right about the Lady Eve thing where it's like right that second act is brief and it's at Vegas the crowning moment you mentioned in your Letterboxd review is his speech his kind of greed is good speech where he's like love is good this is act three second act is Billy Bob which is really short no this is act two act three to me is after they get married is Wheezy Joe you're right You're right.

1:43:47Griffin Newman:You're right. I forgot about the whole Weezer joke. Right. That's what I'm saying. We leap to. Right. Massey is ruined. Yes. Marilyn has all his money.

1:43:56David Sims:He's speaking at the No Man Convention. He has what would be your big triumphant third act. Yes. The character has seen the light. But that's in the second act. He gives the big monologue. Right. Saying like, I think what we're doing is bad and actually love is important. And they give him the slow clap. And do they lift him on shoulders or is that just the implication? He's conquering Hero. Yeah. And then he immediately clocks Billy Bob on the TV. Apparently with Bruce Campbell is there, which I did not clock, but I just saw it on Wikipedia.

1:44:24Griffin Newman:Just to clarify, he signs the prenup because he believes that Billy Bob has given her the money. She has his wealth, but she has no wealth at all. Right. And instead, like by ripping up the prenup. He's in the bad position or whatever they say.

1:44:40David Sims:He gave her the prenup to protect her, to say to her, I love you not for your money. So he thinks that her ripping up the prenup is her saying, I love you so much. I want you to share my money. In reality, he's giving her access to his money.

1:44:54Griffin Newman:I got so confused at this point that it took me until the end to actually understand what was fucking going on.

1:45:01David Sims:It's another thing with this movie of like, as I was saying, it is a movie and most comedies are not structured like this. Like a thriller heist movie where you don't know until the end what's been going on the whole time. I've now seen this like four or five times. and even still every time while I'm watching it I'm trying to remember exactly where it's going.

1:45:19Griffin Newman:But in the third act like now Clooney is ruined. Marilyn has his money. She has his house. She has his house. Clooney's partner you know the old guy Herb is like you have to kill her to protect the reputation of the firm.

1:45:31David Sims:And Clooney's having nightmares about like this guy who previously had said like you're the best of us. You're the future. Now he's having nightmares basically about becoming that guy. Hire Wheezy Joe. played by the I guess the nightmare is what gets him to propose to played by the great Irwin Keyes

1:45:47Griffin Newman:who's just one of those faces made a bajillion fucking born to be in a Cohen movie big skull man yes it's pretty funny to ask him are you Wheezy Joe while he's wheezing yeah whose bit of course is that he has an inhaler yeah also he and Paul Addison get a lot of those like Raising Arizona screams at each other where they just turn and shriek at the top of their lungs they're really good at it It's funny. It's, uh, it's, um, Paul Adelstein went right from this. Cause it was like, he was just emerging Paul Adelstein, right? Like prison break is right around this time. Right. He does prison break and practice.

1:46:26Griffin Newman:He does like three TV shows in a row. And like in prison break, he was like a hard boiled asshole. It's like, he's such a good goof. And I feel like he didn't get to do enough goof. Yeah. He usually plays in movies, like a guy wearing an FBI jacket. who's like, it looks like he went that way. Yeah, you watch this and you assume he's like a comedy UCB guy or something. He's so fucking funny.

1:46:46David Sims:It feels like he got caught in a very, very lucrative detour. I mean, come among us. Yeah, I mean, I guess TV stuff, right. Network procedural stuff.

1:46:55Griffin Newman:But anyway, yes, but the final gag is they hire Wheezy Joe to kill her. And before he gets to her, they realize she is rich rich because Rex Rexroth has left her his fortune. He did not. He never updated his will. He dies in a train orgy. Yes. He's got a big bed in front of a train facade. You're right about post-code movies where it's like, right. He's jumping on a big bed with a bunch of ladies in kind of like fancy old fashioned underwear. Like conjunction hats. In front of a big train. Oh yeah. There's like a train coming into the station. And you're like, right. It's an orgy. But like this movie is an orgy.

1:47:35David Sims:It felt like the sell on this movie was trying to be, here you go, the two sexiest adults in Hollywood being sexy. Well, that's how the Coens are about sex, though, right? Like, is there any movie where there's, like, real, like, genuine sex scenes? What's the one we were saying? I mean, it's what.

1:47:49Griffin Newman:I mean, of course, the hottest sex scene, I Hear Bills, when Buscemi's getting ridden in Fargo. The parallel. Yes. I Hear Bills.

1:47:58David Sims:Yeah. Yeah, sex in Coen. They've had sex in the movies. many episodes ahead, but it's what's so bracing about Drive Away Dolls. Oh, goodness. Is you're like every... Oh, my goodness. Ethan's been holding this back all this time. Cohen movies either cut away, fade out before the sex starts and fade back in the next morning, right? Like this film does. Yeah. Or make it ridiculous. Or it's like, it's cuckolding or it's kind of like comedic banality. Yeah. It is like, this is depressing. Mm-hmm.

1:48:30Griffin Newman:Yeah. so they have to stop Wheezy Joe from murdering her because now she's richer than him so he will now benefit from the divorce and of course Wheezy Joe accidentally inhales his own pistol and dies in an iconic Coen Brothers goofy criminal moment that I do feel like is the one thing everyone was like Wheezy Joe one it's also that violence like the sudden shocking bit of blood that this movie really lacks there's no violence in it other than that really you watch

1:49:01David Sims:I mean he does like get shot you see the fucking bullet wound there is a lack of blood you feel in a way where it's like right this is a PG-13 universal Imagine Entertainment movie yeah it costs 60 million dollars but it's also it's like as surprising as like Brad Pitt in the closet and burn after reading or something

1:49:18Griffin Newman:but that's like bloodier but that is and that's heartbreaking in some way well that's it's also Brad Pitt so it's so shocking when that happens whereas Wheezy Joe Ah, Weezy Joe. I kind of feel like they're teeing him up. I mean, Weezy Joe is, a studio would probably be like, we're introducing this guy like 100 minutes into a 100-minute movie, right? Like, he's a big swing. He wasn't made to be long for this world, Weezy Joe. Like, you could combine him with Cedric the Entertainer, maybe.

1:49:46David Sims:Right, he's like a Final Destination setup where you're like, gun and inhaler, got it. I know how this is ultimately going to end. And I'm just waiting to see the joy of how they finally like. Basically. Yeah.

1:49:59Griffin Newman:Yeah. And the epilogue is. Okay. Time to do the divorce. We're back at the table. We're back with. Jenkins. And. They. Finally are like. Maybe we are in love. Right. Tear up the prenup. You're exposed. Like it's like. The final tear. Jenkins is furious.

1:50:18David Sims:Where he's. I heard someone to murder you. And then he runs off with the. And Adelstein's like, that's not fair and chases after him. But Lady Eve has a similar thing where, like, the guy is so hurt by being conned the first time, he needs to be conned a second time to forgive her. You know, like, they have to go so far beyond the pale to work past their problems. Yeah, well, they've gone through all this effort to con each other, so maybe they are just, they deserve each other in some way. It's also like, that's how they know that the other one cares.

1:50:48Griffin Newman:I guess, I guess, your point, re-rush. we probably don't need the America's Funniest Divorce Videos coda I mean I like Gus getting his little star yeah you want him back one more time

1:51:00David Sims:he says right how did you find the actor he said I found this producer that's the right

1:51:05Griffin Newman:but I don't know if we need that I mean we could probably buy it also feels nice tidy specific dated in a way and like not that this movie is trying to feel timeless but you do get to that and you're like I don't know if I need because I feel like that scene in the office is so perfect. Like, that's the note that you want to end. That's probably the note that, like, a real Preston Sturgis movie would end on as opposed to the Coda. Well, you want tact, call a tactician. This is what I was going to say. You want an ass nailed.

1:51:30David Sims:Gonna nail that ass. I do think you watch a lot of, like, Lubitsch and Sturgis in particular, and the final beat of the movie will often be some loop closing with a supporting character. They end with, like, here's the perfect, like, romantic like sweet beautiful

1:51:52Griffin Newman:positively the same thing

1:51:54David Sims:or the three guys opening the restaurant at the end of Ninochka or stuff. Yeah. It does feel very classical to be like we don't put game pieces on the board unless they will ultimately get their final payoff. Well and there's the bit about Geoffrey Rush where it's like that show will be yours someday. So like to have Catherine Cedda Jones has now ownership of the game show. Yeah I don't really know how that's a transfer to property but it does feel like a callback to that too. Right. And the idea that she has something of her own that's now his and whatever. Oh, well, it's the thing that they do together, right?

1:52:24Does he say, like, what are we going to do now? And she's like, I have an idea.

1:52:27David Sims:And then it's such a free entertainer. It's interesting. Did JJ have anything more about the budget? I mean, I do think a lot of this was some development costs, but also

1:52:37Griffin Newman:JJ, who is fired, of course, because you didn't sign the Massey prenup. We're going to nail this. No, I mean, the budget is not really. There was just so little reporting on this movie because it was kind of there and gone.

1:52:49David Sims:Clooney has always said that he thinks there are less than five times in his career where he actually got his full quote. Right. Because he is a guy who likes to be like, I want to do the. He just didn't do a lot of paycheck. I want to do the descendants. I'll do deferred salary. You know, I feel like this is one of the cases where he probably got full quote. Maybe he did. And maybe like. I think this is probably more than the Coens were ever paid up front to direct a movie. I'm guessing. So everyone just got paid a lot. That's my thing. And I'm like, I bet. It's bankable, right? Craft Services was much better on this film than it was in the Coen Brothers film.

1:53:21David Sims:You know, they talk about how they prep so meticulously to be able to keep costs down, to have worked everything out so far in advance that they don't have to go searching on the day. Yeah. And I just think that's them working around a lot of the second there's a certain price tag on your head, people start asking questions and they start breathing down your neck and there's pressure. Even if your people who are able to retain final cut in a movie like this, they just don't want that pressure on them. Right. And this is just I think everyone was more comfortable. People probably had better trailers.

1:53:54David Sims:I think fucking. They probably stayed in a great hotel in Vegas. Grazer and Ron Howard both probably paid like a million dollars to produce this, even though Ethan was the main producer. You know, like, I think this is just a movie where everyone got their full salary, where everyone was treated nicely. It doesn't feel like they made it any differently. But you do watch this and you're like, holy shit, Burn After Reading costs$20 million. It's crazy that True Grit is cheaper than this. True Grit's like$40 or$50. Wild. You know, like they're just so good at just like don't waste money on things that aren't on screen.

1:54:26David Sims:And also big stars want to work with them and they will ultimately benefit when the movie is profitable, which almost all other movies are because the bar is so low. You think this one's eventually made its money back? It made$80 worldwide.

1:54:39Griffin Newman:Wow. Yeah, let me look up the numbers. I do think we had Seth Rogen on the show recently to discuss The Big Lebowski. The episode's already aired. And he put it correctly, which it made$120 worldwide. It made$35 domestic. It made$120 worldwide? So it made$80 overseas? So that is healthy. Movie stars, man. And it's like, but as he put it, and he's right, he's like, at this time, every movie made$40 million on DVD. Even bad ones. Maybe they made more. But everything would just make so much money on DVD. And especially comedies. anyway the film came out October 10th

1:55:17David Sims:but I do think it spooks them a little bit it is weird even though no one's losing their shirt on it I think it's perceived as a miss

1:55:24Griffin Newman:I'm sure it spooked them as much as the Coens are spookable I don't know how much they do seem quite self assured obviously

1:55:31David Sims:and yet they followed up with a very similar move it's another movie they were originally just hired to write that they decide to take over and direct with a huge movie star. Yeah. And it's a studio project that's being pushed as a conventional mainstream comedy or at least trying to sell it that way. You've already recorded Lady Killers episode? And I did not, I've seen it once, you know, 15 years ago. I will spoil here. I just contend that they have never made a movie with a failing grade. I'd say that's the one that's on the cusp. Closest. I'm like, I give it like a fucking C plus B minus.

1:56:07Griffin Newman:Yeah. Ben, did you like Intolerable Cruelty? Thank you. I haven't realized I haven't really gotten the unit and I was getting this sense.

1:56:14David Sims:You had a hard time following. I laughed at some moments.

1:56:21Griffin Newman:I found the characters quite despicable. They are. In a way that made it hard for me to want to follow them along.

1:56:32David Sims:It's a very acidic movie with no one to root for. Yep. But then it makes you believe in love at the end anyway. Yeah.

1:56:38Griffin Newman:Yeah, and there's something about the crassness, and I understand it's arch. It's arch. Arch is hell. It just... Then you're a sincere fella. Yeah, I struggled with it a little bit. Like, I will say I had to pause at one point because I got so frustrated. Like, the moment when Clooney, they get married, I was just like, I got to walk away from this. I'm so annoyed.

1:57:04David Sims:I also think so much of the movie is misdirecting the audience that you kind of need to see it twice to have seen it once, which is another thing of like people seeing in theaters at the time and never revisiting it.

1:57:15Griffin Newman:And I bet that that's a symptom of me always, you know, knowing that if I were put in this situation that it would work out. Of course. And so seeing him fuck up so bad. Catherine Zeta-Jones would not pull one over on you. I got to get out of here. I can't even deal with this.

1:57:30David Sims:And to David's point of view, being a sincere fella and someone who loves love, unlike bag of money movies, I think you can't even place yourself in the character's heads in this. Yeah, you don't play around with that shit.

1:57:42Griffin Newman:Heinz, the Baron Krause.

1:57:44David Sims:They are engaging in intolerable cruelty towards each other, which you don't fuck with. Number one. Hang on. Hang on. Can I say one more thing about the tone of this? I know, David. I also have to leave. But I feel like if this. You have to leave. That's why I'm rushing this. If this had come out with Burn After Reading, like post No Country, put those two movies together, I think they go really hand in hand. But I do think Burn After Readings, that tone directed at DC as opposed to like Divorce Lawyers in Love, like is a little bit better aimed. Like it makes more sense to be cynical about that than...

1:58:13Griffin Newman:I vastly prefer this movie to Burn.

1:58:14David Sims:Interesting. David dislikes Burn, although we will see how the rewatch goes.

1:58:18Griffin Newman:We will. It's not like I think Burn is like a bad movie. Like it's well made. It's got a lot of great stuff. But like that is the one time where I kind of had the Ben reaction. And on every rewatch, I rewatch, I have the Ben reaction. I'm like, too mean. I kind of hate everybody. I, you know, it feels like an exercise.

1:58:35David Sims:I agree with you, Katie. And as I love to remind people, Burn After Reading is weirdly their third highest grossing film. You love to remind people of that, but I don't care about that. But I'm just saying it did cross over in a way that, to Katie's point, I do think it was more palatable. Like the acidity in that movie is like, we all hate these guys. This movie is based around people. who are kind of like annoying and arrogant, but we can all find common enemies in them. Yeah, and you want to hate DC more than... Because they're the people who control the levers of power. And also just like the post-no-country thing, people were ready to receive it on its level as opposed to this period where it was a little bit weird.

1:59:12Griffin Newman:It wasn't just Clooney, it was Clooney and Pitt. But I think that movie has targets that are acceptable.

1:59:18David Sims:There's also something to like grimy scumbags versus these are like rich, awful people. Well, you haven't seen Burn After Reading yet, right? They're rich people. I have.

1:59:28Griffin Newman:Okay. I have, but I just think that movie has a really goofy tone. I just remember enjoying it. But they are rich people. I like this kind of, because it's like the rich people aren't happy even when they're not being mean. You know, it gets it. That's what I like. October 10, 2003. A bad time to release this movie, in my opinion. I already said it's opening number four at the box office to$12.5 million, which is just straight up bad for your George Clooney PG-13 rom-com. Like, come on. Yeah. Now, number one at the box office, making$22 million. So again, I don't know why they opened this against this.

2:00:01Griffin Newman:Yeah. Is an auteurist masterpiece that is... Is it Kill Bill? It's Kill Bill Volume 1. Yeah. Which is like one of the greatest experiences

2:00:09David Sims:I ever had in a movie theater. It's another reason I think I didn't see this in theaters was I was seeing Kill Bill three times. Yeah. You know, like I was just... All the Coen's people you were talking about who didn't want to see it, they were busy. It just felt triumphant. The guy's back and this thing is like a fucking thrill ride.

2:00:25Griffin Newman:What kind of crazy, you know, studio is like, yeah, let's open the new Coens against the new Tarantino. It's very bizarre. Anyway, so that's number one. Number two is I would call a big sleeper hit of the season. Okay. It was number one last week. It's going to make$81 million. It's making$15 million in its second week. We had a very good legs.

2:00:45David Sims:So it was September 2003.

2:00:48Griffin Newman:Yeah, I guess so. Yeah. Late September. Like a charming comedy with a movie star. It's kind of his movie star breakout. It's kind of his movie star breakout. I was thinking it was a Reese. And you think it's charming. It's a great movie. It is, I think, at this point, a canonical classic. It's a canonical classic. 2003, September. It's his breakout. Kind of. I mean, he's already a big star. He's becoming a big star right now. He's been a big kind of supporting actor guy for a few years.

2:01:22David Sims:The Pacifier doesn't come out until 2004. I'm not talking about the Pacifier. He said big star, so it has to be Vin Diesel. What would you say is the main genre of this star? Comedy. Comedy. Comedy star. It's a big comedy star. Is it Will Ferrell? Nope. No, because Elf is a little later that same year. Yeah. Christmas time or close to it. And it's not a Stiller, and it's not Nolan Wilson, and it's not a Vince Vaughn, And it's School of Rock.

2:01:47Griffin Newman:It is School of Rock, the wonderful Richard Linklater movie. Which, right, it's that thing of like, it's a mainstream family comedy that's made by Richard Linklater and feels like it was made by him. It is what I think everyone hoped Intelebral Cruelty would be. Sure. And there's this feeling.

2:02:05David Sims:Actual crossover appeal beyond just, right, art movie. Jim Jacks, who our buddy Kevin Smith talked about a lot on the podcast, was the guy who originally got the Intolerable Cruelty script and set it up at Universal in the early 90s. And his big thing was find these Sundance guys who have, you can see the gem of a commercial movie within them and protect them enough to let them make it their way. And that was like dazed and confused. And at the time it was like, one of these days, Linklater is going to figure out how to make a movie that cracks the mainstream. And there was that similar feeling with the Coens.

2:02:38Griffin Newman:yeah number three at the box office new this week is the movie that i'm sure an angry phone caller tour made about not even opening above this okay right you know it's like i'm sure some agents got chewed out some assistants got yelled at it's a uh family comedy it's a family comedy um it's it's it's it's heavy on animal is a good boy it is the film good boy yeah what is that which stars dogs. It's a Jim

2:03:06David Sims:Henson production.

2:03:07Griffin Newman:Essentially I think Molly Shannon is first billed in this one. Liam Aiken is the kid actor.

2:03:12David Sims:But I think you're right. Molly Shannon's the mom and it's like dogs are actually aliens. Oh. Matthew Broderick is an alien. I'm an alien dog. Matthew Broderick's an alien dog.

2:03:22Griffin Newman:So the dogs talk. Matthew Broderick, Brittany Murphy, Carl Reiner. Yeah, these are all the dogs. Sounds like people. Cheech Marin, Cheech Marin doing a hilarious voice animal. But I think

2:03:31David Sims:it's basically like dogs are from Mars.

2:03:35Griffin Newman:I mean this is one of those movies that has like been banned from existence by like congressional action I have never I had no idea it's the dignity of intolerable cruelty opening the world good boy

2:03:48David Sims:number five at the box office you said Molly Shan was top build but top build is a dog like it was a movie that was sold on top build is like

2:03:54Griffin Newman:eight dogs she was like ninth build

2:03:56David Sims:yeah and they're beating two of the biggest movie stars at the moment number nine at the box number five at the box office

2:04:02Griffin Newman:is a movie star thriller. Okay. I would say it is a lesser entry in his oeuvre, although he's working with a director he made a great movie with before. Is it a Fuqua? No. I was thinking it was like a Denzel Fuqua. So it is a Denzel. It's a Tony Scott. It's a Denzel Washington. Nope. Not Tony Scott. He only worked with this guy twice. He's a great filmmaker. I believe he's directed you, Griffin. Oh, this is Out of Time? It is Out of Time directed by who? Carl Franklin. The great Carl Franklin, who of course made one false move in Devil in a Blue Dress, which are amazing. And of course directed.

2:04:37David Sims:One true thing, which is solid. One episode of vinyl. One episode of vinyl, which I assume was good. Yeah, what I liked about him, he whispered all his direction. That's cool. Is that a good vibe? It just felt very intimate. Like he'd go up to someone and just really hand on shoulder. Out of time. I don't want to announce things in front of everybody. I'm giving the note to just you. Right, right.

2:04:57Griffin Newman:It's a Denzel mode that I love, which is Denzel as a sloppy, fucked up mess, right? Like rather than Denzel as the cool professional or whatever, like it is a, it is a sweaty Miami or it's a Florida Keys. Yeah. Thriller about like a cop. Who's like, he's the chief of police, but like scandals are piling up. Yes. Eva Mendes is there. Here's my story about this movie. Is that Dean Cain, a great patriot. I texted you about this movie. Cause I was at a trampoline park that was playing, I guess it was, it was, it had TNT on and I saw the final, I was like, what is this movie where Denzel is like sweaty and kind of a bad guy and holding a gun?

2:05:34And immediately after that, they started playing Malcolm X, which was just playing in the background in a trampoline park, which was quite a sight.

2:05:41David Sims:Does Denzel own a trampoline park? Does he own Urban Air? He's probably making a lot of money off of it.

2:05:47Griffin Newman:It's not an amazing movie, but it's all right. And that's number five of the box office. Number six of the box office new this week is House of the Dead, the video game adaptation that Clooney did have the temerity to beat. That one. Uwe Boll. That's the beginning of the Uwe Boll video game dynasty. You've also got the rundown, the early Dwayne Johnson action. Pretty good movie in my memory. Peter Berg movie, right? Yeah.

2:06:10David Sims:It's like fun. It feels like there's an alternate history where you're like, if that movie was a bigger hit at the time, the entire Dwayne Johnson trajectory would have been very different.

2:06:20Griffin Newman:I don't think the interview's gone up yet, but I interviewed Benny Safdie for Smashing Machine, and he calls him DJ. Okay. And that was very interesting to me. I was like, oh, is that how we refer to him? Because I still don't really know, you know, like when I'm interviewing, so I'm like, so what did Dwayne do? What did Rock do? What are we calling him? And he calls him DJ. Number eight at the box office, Under the Tuscan Sun. Masterpiece. C-plus masterpiece. Number nine, Secondhand Lions. Never seen that one. That's the Haley Joel post-Oscar. Michael Caine, Robert Duvall. Yeah. Right. What fucking addled studio guy was like, get me Caine and Duvall.

2:06:56I mean, Kane and Osmond had Oscar heat.

2:06:59Griffin Newman:Yeah. Yeah. And then number 10, it's been out for five weeks. I love the idea that that's a burying the hatchet movie. Right.

2:07:06David Sims:Between Kane and Kaylee Joel. And their contentious. The beef must be squashed.

2:07:12Griffin Newman:Kane knows what he did. Ball is there being like, it's fine. You'll win your Oscar. I got mine for Tender Mercies, was it? Yeah. Kaylee, you'll win this time. Secondhand alliance. And Kane's like, oh, I won't campaign. You can campaign for this. The lions are yours.

2:07:28David Sims:What the fuck? I've never had a good cane, and that was somehow the worst cane I've ever had.

2:07:33Griffin Newman:Meanwhile, David's cane really just popped out there. That was pretty good. Well, you grew up in Britain, everyone. Everyone's got a Michael Caine. The lions are yours. The lions are yours. I can't remember. I lost it. Number 10 is Lost in Translation, which people forget came out in like August. In August? Yeah. Wow. It was in early September. Right. Did it go to Venice and then straight into theaters or something?

2:07:52David Sims:I think so, but it like played for five months.

2:07:55Griffin Newman:Are you high on crack? All right. We're going to complete the episode with Ben. Griffin, you would have gotten a text from Ben. Ben, I guess, just started hitting up eBay because he didn't care for the movie. So he's just hyping shit on eBay. Well, no, I looked up if there's any merch. He looked up merch spotlight and sent an eBay link. For$125, or our best offer, perhaps, you can buy a shirt, maybe the most wrinkled shirt. I was going to say. Pretty wrinkled shirt worn by Cedric the Entertainer. Wow. With Studio COA, so it's authentic. Like on-screen prop? It's just funny because the picture of the shirt now is so wrinkled.

2:08:33Griffin Newman:Yes. But then the picture of him wearing it, you're like, this shirt was very iron. It was new in 2003.

2:08:40David Sims:It's also, the shape of the shirt, I will say, is not making a ton of sense to me. It almost looks like it's like a midriff cut. It is, does look short, but maybe it's a proportion. And I'm like, are the sleeves tiny or are they hidden? Are you guys tempted to buy? I mean, I'm looking around this office with all the stuff here and I cannot tell how much of it is shit you have bought on eBay just like this in a recording. Every day we come here and David goes, I wish there was more stuff. He goes, Griffin, please buy more.

2:09:05Griffin Newman:It's interesting that you've said we. All this negative space in here. You pulled up that eBay link. You're complicit in all of this. That's true.

2:09:12David Sims:Fuck. He is. There's no option for best offer. I would make a best offer.

2:09:17Griffin Newman:We still haven't received our, like, device that turns.

2:09:20David Sims:Yeah, because it's a fucking complicated delivery process.

2:09:22Griffin Newman:Water or air into water.

2:09:24David Sims:I have to text Minix to figure out a time. I feel like I'm supposed to, like, bring a trinket. Like, I have to have an offering here. I like this.

2:09:33Griffin Newman:We're done because we have to do Tank Girl. And Katie has to go see. If I Had Legs, I'd Kick You. The movie for moms who are separated from their children, as I am right now. Will it make me never want to go home? We'll see.

2:09:46David Sims:Possibly. I might give you some little avatar stories to bring back to the boys. Okay, truly, I don't think this is going to be worth it.

2:09:52Griffin Newman:Very quickly, I looked up alternate titles for the foreign markets. Love is Expensive in Argentina and Brazil. Cool. That's pretty good. Japan, Divorce Show. Good. Okay. My favorite, Austria, is Anne, parentheses, I am, close parentheses, Possible Case. That I don't get it. An impossible. I don't know. Oh. And possible and impossible. Oh. Okay. It's got layers. Yeah. I think David's giving me kind of a... Yeah. Intolerable Cruelty is one of the... It sounds like the title of a USA show. Oh, you don't think it was a good title? It's okay. It's before Suits existed and Royal Pains or whatever else.

2:10:32David Sims:In 2003, it sounds like necessary roughness. There you go. But it's like... It's fine. You'd believe that there's like a 10-star Hepburn Tracy movie called Intolerable Cruelty. Yes. 100%.

2:10:44Griffin Newman:or a fucking Rock Hudson movie it's like yes yes 100 % that is true you're the best I'm so happy to be back here far too long what a thrill I gotta get back to New York more you do give me the finger guns I mean you know this episode came out last year I think we may have recorded that's true we recorded as I said before we started recording it was right before I started the terrible endless process of being laid off so I was like I have a job that I like and then by the time it came out everything was insane but it all worked out

2:11:09David Sims:it all worked out because I have a new job that I really like yeah people should follow everything you're doing on the Yankler? Yeah, I'm going to promote because Prestige Junkie, I've got the podcast that's free to everybody, but we have a paid tier now where you can get extra stuff. Chris Rose and I are talking about award season, some real nerdy nonsense. Those are not great takes. You and Chris Rosen? You're interviewing great people. Yeah, it's been fun. I feel like you and David are united in the idea that Sandler's going to win the Oscar this year.

2:11:34Griffin Newman:I'm at least floating it. I'm not like locking it down. My super hot take is that Happy Gilmore 2 and how well that did and how many people are in it was like a really good, like that's good. That's pushing him forward. I listened to this episode. They're both Netflix movies. Like I think it's all there.

2:11:48David Sims:I think it's a good take that it is emblematic of a level of love. Yeah. And just like acceptance in like you are part of the firmament. Yeah. That movie is so cheerful and like heartfelt in this way that it just makes you more affectionate toward Adam Sandler even if you don't like it that much. And then people forget that for 20 years the industry would be like, oh, we hate our most successful movie star. Yeah. They would throw him under the bus at every opportunity they got and be like, we're ashamed that he's our most consistent. Yeah, he keeps making all this money for us. And now I feel like he's just accepted as, like, part of Mount Rushmore.

2:12:18Yeah, and speaking of Clooney, like, I'm so ready for Jake Held. I guess by the time this airs, it will have premiered at Venice, so the world will know if they got the goods. I'm ready.

2:12:26David Sims:Yeah. Thank you for being here. Thanks for having me. David?

2:12:32Griffin Newman:Yes. Did you order our lunch? Yes.

2:12:34David Sims:I can't wait.

2:12:35Griffin Newman:Great. I'm excited to eat it. We gotta watch Tango right away because I have to go to physical therapy.

2:12:39David Sims:Okay. Thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate, review, and subscribe, everything in my body hurts. It's not a competition. I wasn't trying to one-off you.

2:12:46Griffin Newman:I understand that. It's just one of those things where my shoulders hurt for three months and I'm like, I guess I gotta deal with this now because I'm old? Like, it just won't stop hurting. I know why. It's because of the babies. But, like, yeah. Oh, that's a good call. Yeah, I hold that. Yeah, they weigh pounds. When are they gonna start standing? Soon? Oh, oh, well, he's standing. Whatever, sorry. Bebop. I don't know. We have to be telling him to do Tank Girl.

2:13:13David Sims:Please remember to rate, review, and subscribe. Tune in next week for The Lady Killers. What we can all agree is their worst film, even though I will mount a half-hearted partial defensive.

2:13:25Griffin Newman:Right, I would struggle with it's not their worst film from somebody.

2:13:29David Sims:But I was just like, you could rank Talbot Cruelty as their second worst, and I wouldn't even argue with that because you're only putting masterpieces ahead of them. That's the thing, is I would defend this movie a lot, but still be like, what am I going to put below it other than Lady Killers? It's bottom five for me. we'll see where it wins the ultimate record. Probably top of the bottom five for me too. Yeah. You're the greatest defender and you're like top of the bottom five. That's what I can do. They made a lot of good movies. They made a lot of perfect films. Yeah. And we'll continue to talk about them.

2:13:54David Sims:And as always we're going to nail your asses. We're going to nail every one of your asses. Every person out there.

2:14:11Griffin Newman:Blank Check with Griffin and David is hosted by Griffin Newman and David Sims. Our executive producer is me, Ben Hosley.

2:14:17David Sims:Our creative producer is Marie Barty Salinas. And our associate producer is AJ McKeon.

2:14:23Griffin Newman:This show is mixed and edited by AJ McKeon and Alan Smithy. Research by JJ Birch. Our theme song is by Lane Montgomery and the Great American Novel, with additional music by Alex Mitchell. Artwork by Joe Bowen, Ollie Moss, and Pat Reynolds. Our production assistant is Minnick. Special thanks to David Cho, Jordan Fish, and Nate Patterson for their production help. Head over to BlankCheckPod.com for links to all of the real nerdy shit. Join our Patreon, Blank Check Special Features, for exclusive franchise commentaries and bonus episodes. Follow us on social at BlankCheckPod. Subscribe to our weekly newsletter, Checkbook, on Substack.

2:15:02Griffin Newman:This podcast is created and produced by Blank Check Productions.