Miller's Crossing with Ari Aster

11:44Griffin Newman:I feel like that's how you feel being here. You're like, yeah, it could be. There's worse places I could be, at least, in press mode. It could be worse. And I'm happy to just to have the opportunity to say publicly that I love Miller's Crossing. I mean, it's an important stance to take in this day and age. It would be really funny if you came on and you were like,

12:08David Sims:Well, it's kind of a C -. Yeah. Like, not my fave Cohen. What's your history with them? Do you remember what the first movie of theirs you would have seen would be?

12:18Griffin Newman:Yeah. What's your Cohen's sort of... Right. Yeah. Like, what would have been the first theater Cohen's? I don't know. I think the first one I saw was... I think it was actually just on television. I think I saw it pretty young. I think I was like 10. And I saw Raising Arizona. and that for me was like whoa what the hell is this immediately locked down yeah just like this is a language that you know like I haven't heard before but like I speaking to me and I kind of watched them all from there I mean you're my age I feel like we were both too young to have seen Fargo in theaters probably yeah but I was aware of it because I loved the poster I loved that like embroidered yeah the homespun mystery poster and also that was a movie that was at the Oscars and Francis won and I remember my mom me being like what's that and my mom being like yeah uh you know it's hard to explain Fargo

13:16David Sims:but almost every episode talking about Billy Crystal cut into Fargo oh sure as a child being like what is this movie

13:23Griffin Newman:but I don't think I saw Coens in theater until Oh Brother this is a point I've made same for me Big Lebowski was rated 18 in the UK he grew up in England I did see I think the first one in theater was Lebowski for me. And I think it was because my dad thought it was so funny. And then my mom, and so he recommended it to my mom, and then she took me. Was that 98? So I guess I would have been 12. So Fargo did come out when I was 10, which is, I think, around the time I saw Raising Arizona, which makes sense that I would have kind of like... And is this general early for you, kind of like, I'm starting to understand what the director does.

13:59Griffin Newman:I want to like watch a movie and then see more by X person versus just watch movies. I can't trace exactly when those things were. I do remember, I would say the first time I really became hyper aware of the director was when I watched Goodfellas when I was really young as well. And I remember just thinking, what makes this feel different than other movies? What's he doing that's different? Because this feels... I obviously didn't have the language for it or... But I just could see that somebody was doing something behind the scenes that was making this different.

14:39David Sims:Raising Arizona, as you said, is the same. And you locked in on that. Same thing. And at that point, I would have been still addicted to cartoons. And it's like, whoa, this is... It's a straight line. They're creating an on-ramp for you to... Yeah. Totally. Yeah. Just making these cartoon miniature worlds.

14:58Griffin Newman:Wait, who's your cartoon guy? Yeah, let's get into this. This is important. Who's my cartoon guy? Who are your tunes? You know, it's like... Your favorite tunes. Someone points a gun at you and it's like, you have to make a feature adaptation of a cartoon character. And let's be clear,

15:10David Sims:the gun they're pointing at you is a big cartoon gun.

15:12Griffin Newman:It's got a big quark in it. If they shoot it,

15:15David Sims:a flag will come out that says bang.

15:16Griffin Newman:You know, it's like Daffy Duck, Woody Woodpecker, I don't know. Who are you guys? Fucking Wile E. Coyote, whatever. Who are my guys? Or maybe you don't have a guy. Well, you know, VTF,

15:25David Sims:we have to prep you for this by asking who are your tune guys. Well, I'm talking about myself as a little kid watching Raising Arizona. So I guess let's just go, let's like take a little time machine back to 1996 or whatever it was. And I'm watching Rocco's Modern Life. I'm watching Ren and Stimpy. I'm still watching the Rugrats. Yeah. Yeah. They're getting a little, they're getting a little whatever.

15:50Griffin Newman:Yeah. Crusty around the edges, those Rugrats, but they were okay. I'm still identifying with Chucky Finster. Okay. I was going to guess that.

15:57David Sims:I didn't want to autocomplete. Yeah, a little bit of Angelica. Rocco also has some bow energy. Like character to character. I think there's a little, the way Rocco engages with the modern life around him. There's some Ren and Stimpy in there too. Yeah. But well, Rocco's modern life has one joke that I identified as like, that's my humor when I was really young, which was the episode where Heifer becomes convinced that, you know, that, what is it? I'm not sure what the chicken place is. It's...

16:33Griffin Newman:Chokey Chicken? I can't remember, but something chicken is people. Chewy Chicken. Initially called Chokey Chicken. Chewy Chicken is people. Chewy Chicken is people. The Soylent Green. The Soylent Green thing. Yeah. And so he comes out screaming that and then there's like a family of chickens going up the stairs. And they're like, well, that's a relief. And I go in. I just remember really... That's a good guy. That's a good guy. I remember just that had me laughing for like 10 minutes. I was a really stupid kid. No, no, that's not sophisticated. Yeah. We grew up in a perfect era for that of, you know, cartoon.

17:08Griffin Newman:Like that was that we had it best. I really think we had it best. Well, the Nicktoon revolution was... Stuff was just slipping by.

17:14David Sims:You also basically doubled the amount of cartoons that were being made because of cable, right?

17:20Griffin Newman:We need stuff. Like so much of Sour Bound cartoons was still us watching

17:24David Sims:the things our parents grew up on. And suddenly there's this wave of like cable channels making new shows. And Nickelodeon in particular pulled a bunch of like underground cartoonists and were like, just do your thing. So you had these shows that were, if not subversive, at least were quietly kind of like for their own entertainment, which then could transmit a signal directly to the type of kid who'd be like, I get this. This is doing something different. I mean, it's the thing I feel like we talk about on this show all the time, but that feeling of watching something when you're young and going like, why is this different?

17:58David Sims:The way you're describing watching Goodfellas, it has to be the person who made this, because this is doing something different than anything else I've ever seen.

18:06Griffin Newman:But so then, all right, Miller's Crossing. When do you get to Miller's Crossing? I watched this in college for sure. Like, I don't, you know, I had long, you know, I'd seen Bunch of Coens or whatever by the time I finally rented this on Love Film and watch it on my college 10-inch TV.

18:21David Sims:I think this is the last one I saw, not counting new releases that came out after I saw it. In my Going Backwards and Coen's, I think they played this at Film Forum some point in the last 10 years, and it was my blind spot. And I also had only seen it the one time before re-watching Last Night versus every other Coen's movie. Oh, really? So this isn't a big one for you? I feel like I've seen five times. I love it. I was kind of surprised when I put it on, why haven't I re-watched this? because all their other movies are movies I tend to throw on if I can't fall asleep. And this one I just never go back to.

18:55Well, this was an early one for me. This was really early. As I was first digging in, this was one of the first movies that I rented of theirs. And I remember this is around the time that I also was obsessed with Goodfellas. And this came out the same year.

19:11Griffin Newman:This is the year the big three gangster movies. It's overshadowed by that. And it makes sense because Goodfellas is the best movie ever made. I agree. I agree. But this is one of the best movies ever made. I was completely blown away. And this is a film I just kept rewatching. And I was a kid who, I was a fat kid with a debilitating stutter. So I keep hearing about these kids who are making Super 8 movies with their friends. Right. But what do you do when you have no friends? and so I you know instead of making movies I just like wrote scripts and this was one of the scripts that I was completely obsessed with you know I would you get your hands on scripts to see like yeah no I I was printing scripts from like from the internet like Drew's Scriptorama and their their scripts are I feel like unique simply scripts simply scripts don't the Coens kind of write their scripts more narratively or what I feel like there's some uh approach they have that's not typical oh the Coens yeah no the Coens are they they write them as like prose they don't do like I think they do do interior but but they but they are you know they're they're literate um and well they're literary and in a way and and this this film especially because you know I mean the dialogue is just is so musical and so beautiful and has such like rhythm to it and obviously you know The film is like something between pastiche and homage.

20:50And it's specifically got its sights on Dashiell Hammett. But one of the first scripts I bought was, well, one of the first script books I bought was this and Barton Fink's screenplay, published together with the Roderick Jaynes introduction. We have that somewhere here. There's a third one in there, I think, as well. No, it's just those two. Okay. It's just those two. The Faber, the Faber, the published, the Clapper, you know,

21:20Griffin Newman:cover. Those were the best. If you were, if you were, if you were collecting scripts, the Faber series was, you know, was absolutely the best.

21:28David Sims:Is it titled as, like, Collected Cohen Screenplays Volume 1? No, no, no. Okay. I know what you're thinking about. You know which book I'm thinking about. That came later. But then there's no Volume 2. There's a Volume 1 that's three of them together that I got recently, and then Volume 2 never happens. is that right I mean Faber published like almost all of them they did they started doing them solo and they did they did yeah they did the man who wasn't there again with another Roderick Jaynes intro which those are the funniest

21:59Griffin Newman:Roderick Jaynes of course is their editor who is them who is them although I think they didn't start doing that until is it Barton like they initially or like Miller's Crossing was edited by somebody else right it was Michael Miller right Right. Barton Fink is Roderick James. So that's where, but is Raising Arizona, did they edit that one themselves? I'm going to check. No, Michael Miller is their, right, is their editor on that one too. Yeah, so, but Roderick James, famously they wanted to dress Albert Finney up as him one year when he was nominated maybe for Fargo. They were nominated under that, and they were like, we're going to put Albert Finney in a costume and have him like sit there.

22:36Griffin Newman:I don't think it actually happened. Who's the guy they use for? They have like a photo. For Forever Young films. Oh, yes. Which he shows up for Blood Simple and he goes, forever young, forever young. They've used him a few times. It's there, absolutely. Yeah, that guy is so funny.

22:56David Sims:So funny. When you're young and you're reading this script and trying to like pull the math from it to be able to apply to learn how to write your own scripts, are there things you remember latching on to or observing and engaging with it in that format? Well, you know, I mean, the film is like, you know... famous for its labyrinthine plotting, which was so complicated that they had to take a break from it to write Barton Fink. Right. Because they got confused. Most productive writer's block of all time. Yeah. Yeah. But when I first started writing screenplays and kind of obsessively reading them, I was just obsessed with dialogue writing.

23:35And so I was really into David Mamet, Patty Chayefsky, and the Coens, really. and there were a lot of other screenwriters that like still that meant a lot to me like you know I was really into Paul Schrader when I was young and I was really and I got into Bergman pretty young and I really loved his screenplays and you know and Kenneth Lonergan who's still maybe the best dialogue writer you know like living

24:02David Sims:I'm with you on that I was looking at his IMDB the other day because I was like how few credits does Lonergan actually have there's the early run of him getting the credit on Analyze This which he says they basically totally rewrote. Right and he showed up for Gangs of New York. Yes. He's sole credited screenwriter on Adventures of Rocky and Bullwinkle which is incredible. No one else gets credit on that but the thing I always forget is he wrote two episodes of Doug going back to Nicktoons which makes a ton of sense.

24:32Griffin Newman:Yep. He wrote series four. He was in the writer's room for that one I guess. I don't know. Doug a tough protagonist to write for. I think Alon Ergen was mostly animated by Porkchop. That's really who he dug in.

24:44David Sims:And his plays, you know, are incredible. His plays are incredible. I read his plays obsessively in high school, I think in a similar way of just being like, what is this and how does he do this?

24:54Griffin Newman:I've also talked about this, but This Is Our Youth was revived in London when I was a teenager as this like rolling like thing with celebrities. Like it was for the initial cast was Hayden Christensen and Anna Paquin and Jake Gyllenhaal. But then they would just bring in all these other young hot American actors. I found one the other day, which was... I have the Pope. Damon did it, which is bizarre. He was way too old to be doing it.

25:17David Sims:Freddie Prinze Jr. and Chris Klein did it together. Yeah. And like... One of the worst titles for anything. This is our youth is a bad title. It's quite bad. I'm sure he regrets that title a little bit, right? Yeah. Like, you know... It's a very good play. Yes. With a horrendous title. That's another thing. I found this Playbill article where they were talking about... But you can turn on me as a bit. Sorry, I'm... No, no. Just musing on bad titles for great things. You Can Count on Me, I remember being, because I love that film, and I remember almost not seeing it because the title, and then being so happy that nobody said, You Can Count on Me.

25:54Yes.

25:55David Sims:You're sitting there the whole time going like, don't blow it, my guy. Yeah. Especially the final bus stop scene. It could come at any second.

26:03Griffin Newman:Sundance-y kind of movie. I mean, I know it wasn't. Once you've seen it, the title kind of works. No, it's a totally fine title, But now I'm realizing, like, actually, he usually shits the bed with his titles. No, I'm kidding. I mean, Margaret is a great title for the movie. It's a tough sell, maybe.

26:18David Sims:Right. It also falls into the Tootsie problem of, like, so who plays Margaret?

26:21Griffin Newman:Right. Like, there's nobody.

26:23David Sims:It's a poem. There's a Playbill article I found that was when You Can Count On Me was about to come out. And they're saying, like, everything's coming up, Lonergan. He wrote the Rocky and Bullwinkle movie. His first directorial effort. Like, this is our youth continues to, like, sell out in London. and he was like, my next thing I'm doing is this is our youth as a movie. Yeah. Oh, interesting. Which is like, it is absolutely, as long as people don't think I shit the bed on this first film, I'm doing that next without a doubt.

26:49Griffin Newman:But it's not cinematic at all. It's set in a freaking dirty apartment like it's a play. I don't know. It makes sense because it was so beloved. Yes. And, you know, everybody likes young people. Right. He could, in theory, get three big stars to do it. Damon Affleck, Casey Affleck, and Summer Phoenix was that cast. Wild. I gotta find the Kieran Culkin one I saw it like three times I just kept going I saw the Kieran Culkin with Michael Cera yeah I saw that I saw that at the roundabout yeah and Tavi yes

27:19David Sims:find out who played the female part against Klein and Prince though Colin Hanks did it in London I think anyway this is not important now I'm seeing why these go for two hours sorry because they're important because we talk about the important things that everyone else is afraid to talk about here's what I want to ask about Miller's Crossing or rather a point I want to make. Bloodsable does not have a ton of dialogue in it. The dialogue that's in it is really strong, but there are extended sections that play out in silence. Well, it's mostly just the private eye. Yeah, I mean, I mean, Walsh. I mean, I mean, Walsh.

27:55Who, you know, was a real get for them in their first film. He's a... Proper, recognizable character actor. You guys seen Straight Time?

28:05Griffin Newman:Yeah. Heather Burns, the greatest. the greatest.

28:08David Sims:Oh, ooh. Yeah. Love Heather Burns. But that's a good point that like what they did for M.M. at Walsh, a guy who was always kind of taken as sturdy but never got that good of a showcase, I think immediately gives them so much clout with other actors of, well, I want them to do for me what they did for him. And just from Raising Arizona on, they're getting great people. But Raising Arizona is so dialogue forward that the criticisms at the time as we read all the insane reviews when it came out are people being like, why is this so fucking overwritten? There's all this insane criticism at the time from major critics.

28:44David Sims:Yes. Being like, no one talks like this rather than getting that that's the point. When you dive in,

28:50Griffin Newman:the critics don't really fully align on the Coens until Fargo. Like, I mean, obviously, they were critically beloved in their way, but like every movie, there would be a huge swath of usually older critics being like, this is all sizzle. Like, you know, this is pastiche, like you say, like this is not. Well, and there's that, there's that like, I'm always mystified by this one, but they judge their characters. They don't like their characters. Right, right. They're patronizing. They love their characters. I've never understood. Well, no, I've just never understood that as even a criticism. It's like, especially when you're making a genre film, it's like, I want you to destroy everybody you create.

29:28Like, you know, that's like, I've paid for this movie.

29:32David Sims:Also, their movies are about cruel and indifferent universes. Yeah, and they've always been world builders, you know? And they're people who are very conscious of kind of all the traditions that precede them. And what kind of distinguishes them is that they're both like a reverential thing going on, where they absolutely love these traditions. And then they're also totally irreverent, where they're kind of blowing them up. And so you do have something like, with Raising Arizona, you've got a lot of Tex Avery and all the... But then with Miller's Crossing, you have specifically Dashiell Hammett.

30:17You've got Howard Hawks. You've got... This really explodes with Hudsucker Proxy, where it's like, okay, this is sort of Capra. It's like Mr. Deeds goes to town. And it's like, okay, it's also the big clock. and it's, and like you got Sturgis and it's mostly Capra with like the speed of Howard Hawks. And then with Miller's Crossing, you've got, I would say mostly Hammett with again the, like the treatment of dialogue that you get from Howard Hawks and then like a minimalism. Yes. Like even just the rooms are empty.

30:58David Sims:Yes. And after how kinetic and sort of like thoroughly stylized Raising Arizona is, I think you're right that they didn't totally align until Fargo. But this is a movie where you see a lot of their critical critics swing back and go, maybe these guys have depth. Not everybody. this is the first of their films that feels that has like an elegiac quality yes and I do feel that if you're one of the people who whatever was like saw Raising Arizona and was like weird enough to be like they don't like these people I don't like this you know yeah this movie is really moving and it's a great film about friendship that's the I think you

31:38Griffin Newman:have to watch it a couple times to figure that out maybe because the first because it's so visually overwhelming and because the plot is ostensibly naughty and complicated. So you're trying to keep track. And then the more I watched it, the more I locked in on like, yes, it's a film about friendship. It's a film about a person weighing whether there's any morality in what he does, right? You know what I mean? And making a moral decision and then regretting it, essentially. I'm reading the Ebert Review. The Ebert Review is interesting because he has the criticism I think a lot of people had where he's like, this is a gorgeous movie.

32:13Griffin Newman:I don't believe that anyone would live in these rooms like these rooms are too beautiful it's not a gangster movie like and can be in the times who I think of as like one of the kings of the old guard back then like futsy kind of a whatever bad critic sorry Vincent was a big hater who is like this is like fucking Dick Tracy you know the Warren Beatty movie toy train past yeah this is just these kids playing with gangster action figures and you're just like I'm just saying not to diss my own community, but...

32:44David Sims:But I think this movie is, even on a surface level, more sincere and less ironic. Less, right? Which broke down some of their detractors who get fully won over by Fargo. And I think part of it is to your point, when you're talking about all the different elements they're synthesizing in like, you know, Hudsucker's after this, but in Blood Simple and in Raising Arizona, they're getting the charge from putting disparate things together, right? What if you combined Mad Max with Flannery O 'Connor with Wile E. Coyote? And to some people, they just short-circuit and go, you can't put those things together.

33:24David Sims:The things that Miller's Crossing is synthesizing are all starting at a closer place to each other. So I think people were just like, okay, this is a less manic thing. A thing that I find funny, because I was trying to remember why I saw Miller, not Miller's Crossing, Raising Arizona at a young age, And it was that I was obsessed with the AFI did their 100 years, 100 laughs list after their first 100 years of movies list. They tried to do every year a new one as a TV special that I was obsessed with. And then Blockbuster had a little pamphlet where you could check on which ones you had watched as a comedy obsessed kid.

33:59David Sims:And in 1998, Raising Arizona was 30 on their list. 31. But like barely 10 years later, it had gone from like, what is this overwritten stuff to we all agree this is one of the 50 best American comedies ever made. Yep.

34:15Griffin Newman:Fargo's also on that list.

34:16David Sims:Where was Fargo? 93. And I'm sure Big Lebowski's on there now.

34:20Griffin Newman:Now would be, yeah. Yeah, right. Now, I wonder if Raising Arizona, well, who knows. Just because Big Lebowski sort of became their most famous out-and-out comedy in a way, but...

34:35David Sims:David. Yes. I got myself into a real pickle. Uh-oh. I thought it'd be funny to put on some Groucho Marx glasses. Uh-huh. Very, very funny. Very funny. Classic. I've been stuck wearing them for five years because it's such a hassle to replace your glasses that once I made that commitment, now I'm walking around with the big schnoz, the eyebrows, the mustache, all times.

34:56Griffin Newman:I know what you're saying. Glasses cost hundreds of dollars. You know, you just kind of live with whatever you've got. Wait a second. What about Zeni Optical? What?

35:03David Sims:I forgot about Zenni Optical.

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36:03Griffin Newman:This episode is brought to you by Facebook. So you were scrolling on Marketplace, and there it was, the bike you'd been searching for.

36:11David Sims:You sent a message, and it turned out the seller was super chatty, kind of funny, and an avid cyclist. The next thing you know, you're in a cycling crew. Well, a community cycling group. The thing about Facebook, you might find more than what you're looking for.

36:27Griffin Newman:From a browse to a bike ride, this summer, find more on Facebook. I'm opening the dossier. We have research. All right. We don't just make stuff up. Okay. So obviously, right. They're pivoting out of Raising Arizona. Joel says, we don't want to do another out and out comedy. We wanted to do something that was a little bit morbid. We've always liked gangsters. And they talk about the visual. The starting point is the visual is the hats, the long coats, the hat blowing onto the ground. Tommy guns, dirty town gangster stories is how Joel Cohen puts it. more pulp-lit than movies per se. Right? Like, they're starting more with this.

37:06The sound of the cork

37:07David Sims:being pulled out of a... Skip leaves, say, once again, the goat. No movies sound better than Coen Brothers movies because every single action has such a distinct resonance to it. Any, like, shifting of weight in a chair suddenly is the most visceral thing you have ever experienced. I'll just say, since I'm only able to talk on the Miller's Crossing podcast, but I've got a lot to say about all their films, I will say for sound design, the road trip sequence in Inside Llewyn Davis is so mesmerizing. The John Goodman? Goodman, Garrett Hedlund. Everything about it. It's so just, it is such a hypnotic like 20, 25 minutes.

37:54It might be their best filmmaking, but also just the sound design. It's like the whole thing is like almost underwater. Yeah. And it's really, it's really eerie. And also just their like metronomic sense of like pacing, like reaches like a sort of apex. That's the, they have a lot of, they have a lot of like apogees, like, you know. They do. They have multiples. I can't talk on Hudsucker Proxy or Serious Man podcast, but I will say. You can share your thoughts here. This is your space. Yeah. I will say Serious Man, The Goiz Teeth, and then Hudsucker Proxy, The Hula Hoop, which I know Sam Raimi was involved in helping to direct.

38:41Those two are like, I mean, just, you know, as far as the medium has been like pushed. Yes. As far as montage is concerned, just absolutely amazing.

38:52David Sims:And the Hudsucker, right, the Hudsucker sequence feels mathematical in the way it is interweaving different games that are being heightened and de-heightened. You basically, within one extended montage, have like 10 different narrative tracks that you're keeping your tabs on. Yeah. And just like what they're doing in that movie with the Cacheturian. You know, it's, I mean, it's Carter Burwell kind of riffing on Cacheturian's Spartacus. Yes. Mostly the Adagio, but it's, I mean, just what they're doing with music there is so great. It's like, you know, it's very, it's like, it's very Rube Goldberg and they're very Rube Goldberg-y filmmakers.

39:33Griffin Newman:the sort of serious man true grit inside Llewyn Davis whatever Apogee one of like several Apogee that does feel like drawing a circle like for kids like for kids that feels like where they're just like we can I'm not saying in an arrogant way it's just they're so they can do anything right like they can work in any genre at that point without any kind of like oh let's see what this is like

39:53David Sims:we we've recorded our Odd Soccer episode quite a bit ago and I was trying to do some tidying around the office and I found this which I don't think was shared on mic and never went acknowledged. Ben, I believe, drew this up, which is a chain and it says, you know for kids. Was this your handiwork? It's just like an idea I was playing around with. Just pitching the idea of a chain to play with. Oh, because you like just like a metal chain. Ben likes chains. Right. It's a quality of something I love in film. Oh, I'm sorry. Chains in general. You know for bad kids. I missed the key word. The chain is for bad kids.

40:33David Sims:There's no Ari movie with chains, though.

40:34Griffin Newman:You've never really done chain work in your oeuvre. Bo was afraid. He breaks the chains. Remember in the play? Yes. Okay. Yes, that's right. That's right. Okay. So you've done some chains. It just must be fun to, like, as a director, evaluate, like, piles of chains, right? Like, is this the right chain? It's more in my private life. When you were visited by Jacob Marley. Ari, same, I gotta say. Yeah. So, okay. uh Miller's Crossing as you already you know noted Dashiell Hammett is obviously their biggest uh inspiration versus James Kane Raymond Chandler whoever else that they've also sort of paid homage to over the years yeah Chandler would be Big Lebowski right Kane would be man who wasn't there and kind of blood simple definitely yeah yeah yeah blood simple for sure Kane the horniest I would say Chandler kind of the coolest and Hammett I feel like is the most emotional I don't know Maybe that's very broad of me, though.

41:30Griffin Newman:Actually, maybe I take that back. I'm not sure if I would say Hammett was the most emotional because... Well, Glass Key is emotional, which is a book I love. Because that is about friendship. That is about a guy being like, I can't be friends with you anymore. But you're also outside of the characters in Hammett. Whereas with, I would say, is Kane the most emotional? Not necessarily. Kane's just so horny. With Mildred Pierce, maybe. But Kane is like so just bare bones and like nothing extraneous. whereas Hammett is like more colorful I would say and is having more fun with language and and then Chandler is is you're just always inside of like Marlowe's right a drunk motherfucker who like can't put his pants on but also is so cool speaking to what you're saying Ethan there's a quote from Ethan Miller's Crossing definitely an exercise in doing a Hammett story it's that thing of not being in the character's head and part of the mystery is who is the main character.

42:29Griffin Newman:Because with Sam Spade, who I feel like is the most famous hammock guy, you are spending the whole thing being like, yeah, what does he want, actually? Like, I don't get it. He's cool. Yeah, he's an enigma. And Gabriel Byrne in this movie, Tom, Tom Reagan, he's a stoic. You might not know if the character's Irish. Did you pick up on that? Subtle detail. Yeah, he's stoic. Yeah, he's a stoic who... He's sort of man of few words. Yeah. stone-faced often. Very Red Harvest. And, you know, it's like, he's doing something. We know he's got a plan. We don't know how much of a plan he has. He seems to be a brilliant improviser.

43:08Have ideas for a plan?

43:10David Sims:What's the line? Yeah, right. Yeah, something like that. And I guess, you know, Red Harvest is infamously the, you know, the sort of, the text for Yojimbo and then like, you know, and then those Sergio Leone. name. The man with no name. Yeah, the man with no name, but specifically a fistful of dollars, right? And then, yeah, just a guy who in the case of like Yojimbo, like, you know, rolls into a town, you know, like a drifter who then pits, you know, pits two warring gangs against each other. But here, you know, it's somebody who's of the world and in the world. What's the line that you describe him to?

43:53David Sims:He's like the guy behind the guy whispering in the ear. This sort of notion of the type of guy who's not usually at the center of these stories. The right-hand man. Right. And is so reluctant to reveal himself in any way. Tough to date. I feel like this guy might be tough to date. Well, there's the exchange he has with Marsha Gay Harden where she's like, that's a hell of a long way to go to get what you want. And then he says, what would that be? And she says, me. and it's a thing he would never, ever say to her that she's basically pulling out of him of, I think you just got fired and got your ass beat rather than saying I love you, which is the thing you would never do.

44:34David Sims:And yet the whole time, in almost every scene, I'm trying to figure out, is he manipulating this current situation to his own ends for what he wants or is he battling back and forth in terms of what he actually wants? I think what makes this character interesting to me is at different times, I think he's in complete control or complete chaos based on is he cleaning up the messes of something he did wrong before? Or is this all how he was trying to build it out purposefully? because I think there is some shifting of at moments in this movie, I'm thinking he's planning all of this so he can get out or he's planning all this so he can be on top or he's planning all of this to help Albert Finney or just to get Marsh Gay Harden or all of them.

45:22David Sims:Does he think he can pull it all off? And then by the end, it turned out he, you know, he did have the plan.

45:29Griffin Newman:Yes. Do you think he, the whole time is like, that's how it's going to unfold? I'll switch sides and ferment chaos. Well, of course not when he lets Bernie Birnbaum go in the woods. That's the one time he's letting the mask slip or whatever. That's the sort of crux, right? It's like it actually... And I would fucking let him go too. He won't shut up. I would struggle to shoot Bernie Birnbaum. And then it's so great when he shoots him. Yes. It's one of the most satisfying murders of a person ever in a movie. But having only seen this movie twice.

46:03David Sims:Admittedly. Okay. I did, in this watch, feel like there is a midsection where his priority becomes Marsha Gay Harden. I mean, she's... And then he's sort of trying to untangle the damage he causes by letting his emotions override that much. I think there's a window where that becomes the dominant driving force for him, and then he starts to close up again.

46:25Griffin Newman:He's definitely... Look, he's a compulsive gambler, and he likes a drink or two. He likes to pull the cork. Yeah, it's not like Tom is a completely straightforward person. There's obviously a lot raging inside of him that he deals with in traditional 1920s gangster ways. It'd be funny if he went off and did art or something. He's actually a really good painter. Right. Yeah. But yeah, he's not sentimental, I guess. And Albert Finney, Leo, right, is such a sweetheart in this movie, which is so... He never stops being a sweetheart. Like, he's really not a cold-blooded... He's a very warm-blooded guy, right?

47:08Griffin Newman:Like, he's a... And I feel like Tom is like, I don't know how to be like that. Or I don't understand, like, how to sort of handle this, like, you know, this emotional person. Right? I don't know. Albert Finney at the end of his career was, in those last like, you know, 15 years, was playing a lot of warm guys. He's, yeah, Aaron Brockovich and all this. My favorite actor, basically. I mean, Saturday Night and Sunday Morning is one of my favorite performances. That is basically one of my core movies. That's where he plays like a brute. He, as I've told, I've said on this podcast, that is, that's like, my dad was always just like, that was me.

47:44Griffin Newman:You were raised on that movie, yeah. Yeah, it was a working class British guy, like in that era. Just drinking all the time. But he just always... Where it's just like, we just got food back, like proper, like, and I don't mean even good food, but Britain in like the late 50s is basically like, we're now allowed to eat regular amounts of food again. We've basically just been drinking our brains out. If a character was just beer, it would be Albert Finney.

48:10David Sims:He's a human pint.

48:11Griffin Newman:And like, what I love about that is that's 1960, 1963, the next movie he makes is Tom Jones in 1963, which is basically like, what if a guy fucked his way through like England in like, you know, whatever era? But the commonality is, there was always... And the Oscars were like best picture, I think. Like, this is the best picture of the year.

48:27David Sims:He always had that, like, not to be corny, but the twinkle in his eye. And there was this like well of warmth that you could apply in different ways. But there was something of like, in Aaron Brockovich, you want to see him be won over, right? But something like this, what's funny about it is that he's not doing the tough layer on top of it. I mean, it's one of the most insane things is that this was not only not written for him, but written explicitly for Trey Wilson, who dies two days before filming.

48:54Griffin Newman:Right, who's obviously wonderful in Raising Arizona. And you get it. I mean, like, you can see him in this. But then I also cannot imagine anyone else but Finney in the robe with the Tommy gun. Like, you know, in that whole sequence, you're like, yeah, it's incredible.

49:08David Sims:And the weight of the history of what he provides. Like, Trey Wilson clearly would have knocked this out of the park because he would have been eager to have this kind of opportunity. But scene one of Finney sitting there, you're like, yeah, I get that this guy's run this town for 20 years or whatever. It's like production value and like weight, especially because the movie basically opens on him silently, largely just reacting, you know, that's sort of like worth its weight in gold. But it is wild that it not only was not intended for him, but that he jumps in so last minute where you're like, this is Finney with zero prep.

49:42David Sims:Yeah, right. Like if Trey Wilson dies two days before, like how do they even get to Finney that quick? Get an agreement out of him, get him on set within a week. Yeah, it's a really soulful performance. But also he's so clearly tapped into whatever they're doing, you know? I mean, like there's the gag where Gabriel Byrne breaks into the ladies room and he's dressed in drag as like one of the attendants. It's like, which he asked to do, it's just like clear that he has the same sense of humor. Right, it was into the idea of being Roderick James at the Oscar. Like, I'm just like, it's so... So great.

50:14David Sims:Funny, but also this feels like a movie, especially at this point in their career, that you imagine only gets greenlit if they have someone like Finney in the supporting role.

50:24Griffin Newman:Well, this feels like a classic, like... Let me get back to the research then, because, okay, so famously, yes, usually they say they write very fast. Like, that's, I feel like, their typical explanation on screenplay writing. But as we said, the plot slows them down. It takes them, they say, about eight months because they stop in the middle to write about Barton Fink. They get some distance from it. They kind of go on vacation. They come back to it. They figure out the plot. And they also say they don't change the dialogue, but they rewrote part of the script during filming, which I don't really understand, but maybe they just kind of restructured the, you know, plotting in some way.

51:05Griffin Newman:They obviously are not very into symbolism, explaining symbolism. Barry Sonnenfeld says, like, they won't say, like, the hat represents this. We're going to talk about the hat. But they will say, we wanted to make a movie with hats. You know what I mean? Like, that's the thing with the cones. They're like, hats. Like, we started with hats. What do the hats mean? And they're like, oh, I don't know. We just like hats.

51:25David Sims:Right before we recorded, we were talking about how you were worried going into the series of, like, isn't it going to be tough because they famously don't want to talk in interviews and we're not going to get the context that J.J. is usually good at digging up when he's not busy being fired. and that you've been surprised that there is a lot of stuff they say. Despite the reputation, you can pin all this together. But I feel like so much of the reputation comes from the hat where this movie comes out and everyone was like, what does the hat mean? And they kept on being like, we just thought it was kind of an interesting image.

51:54David Sims:They really downplayed any weight behind it. And I feel...

51:59Griffin Newman:To Cody and Cohen, the hat doesn't represent anything. It's a hat blown by the wind. Yes. It's an image that came to us that we like. And then Barton Fink almost... I don't think that's disingenuous. kind of thumbs it up. No, I don't either. I think that strikes me as being right. You know, I don't see that and think like, man, that hat represents, you know. I agree with you. I think that's the secret. You gotta just, I mean, look, you have made movies, I'm sure, where people are like, but Ari, what does this mean? Like, that scene, come on now, explain this to me now, Ari. You know, I'm like, I'm sure you get this all the time.

52:27Totally.

52:28Griffin Newman:And that's really fun and you love those questions and you'll have to answer them. Yeah. Right? And sometimes you dangle stuff knowing that it's gonna, people's time. You're not a babe in the woods being like, you know that, sure, like, okay, this will be something. Sometimes that's the joke. The joke is like, you're going to think this means something. Well, that's why the dick in the attic in Boa's Afraid is my favorite thing. Well, that's the whole point. The whole point is like, the whole point is, what could be up there? It's the whole movie. You're like, you know, you build the intrigue and you make it like an object of suspense and then you reveal, like, you've just wasted your time and your thought and your energy on this and it's, it's the stupidest possible thing that could mean nothing.

53:09But also, it kind of means everything.

53:12David Sims:It's like, isn't everyone's father kind of a penis? That's the trap, you know? It's like, even, I mean, it's almost like the one thing I regret where it's just like, ugh, like I, I, Are you having too much fun? It's such a, well, no, it's just such a fuck you. And that was sort of the point, was, you know, I guess, to quote Susan Sontag, Please. It's a gesture that's against the very idea of interpretation, right? Like, just like, yeah, just try to interpret this. I just gave Ari the finger. Yeah, well, that's exactly right. It is a middle finger to anybody, you know, investing anything. Like, sort of doing semiotics.

53:50David Sims:I mean, against everything we've just said, can I give my hat read? Oh, please. Because something kind of clicked for me watching it this time. Yeah, the hat is a penis. The hat is a penis. It's Bo's dad. What's up? The hat is Bo's dad. It's a call for. Right, what's the hat? No, I think it is literally just a hat, right? But I think the reason, not just the imagery, right? But then also the hi-hat being thrown out as the term all the time. Yeah, give me the hi-hat, sure. Refers to symbols, but yes. Yes. And the first scene after the opening credits and the hat imagery is them calling out that Gabriel Byrne lost his hat.

54:23David Sims:Yes. And it goes back to the Leo thing.

54:24Griffin Newman:They are very into knocking his hat off his head. Absolutely. A lot.

54:27David Sims:And there's a lot in this movie of when people are wearing a hat, when they're not, when they take it off, right? Which I think is just literally what it is. And down to Polito talking about like ethics, right? That this is a movie to me in many ways that is about this kind of like early 1900s, all the immigration happening, these different cliques from different countries coming to the major cities and trying to establish a social hierarchy. You know, where did the Irish stand relative to the Italians and to the Jews and all these people trying to make a name for themselves. But all of this was couched in this idea of like manners and ethics and gentlemanly behavior.

55:05David Sims:And who can you trust? You know, the Sopranos thing of like, do you feel like we got in after all the good stuff had happened? Right. That that era of like mobsterism and even what Goodfellas is kind of addressing is like this is starting to get tacky. and the shit that they talk about being so animating to them is like these movies that have this kind of dialogue and the hats and the long coats. Yeah, they're fetishists. These guys used to talk well and dress well, right? That's absolutely right. And the idea of what you did with your hat was shown could be an ultimate sign of respect or disrespect to someone else.

55:38David Sims:That the major thing in play here, in many ways, the central tension of this movie is can you do something that breaks the gentlemanly nature of crime? Sure. And if you do that, is this irrevocable? Polito's hatred of the double cross. We're all pretending to be gentlemen. Exactly. To what extent are we really? Yeah, no. The hat is a meaningless thing that all this weight is put on. It could be the ultimate affront if you do the wrong thing with your hat or if you lose it, do you feel like you're no longer a man? But it is just literally a hat. It's nothing. It's just a piece of poetry.

56:11Griffin Newman:Yeah. I gotta say about tailors and haberdashers during this era, they were fucking cleaning up. Okay. Go off. They were making so much money because you got to think like these knuckleheads show up. They get a full wardrobe. Right. Then they get shot by a Tommy gun minutes later. Good call. They need more. They just then turn out

56:30David Sims:another henchman. They're not just going to patch a hole. They're going to give you a new hat from scratch. Yeah. If you go to the Shenandoah Club, you know, there's a lot of henchmen up on that. Yeah. That upper floor in that hallway. They were working in quantity. For sure. Yeah. Yeah. It was a good time. Do you know also, Ben, do you know that the reason the Mad Hatter exists as a character is because hat glue used to make people literally fucking insane? Yeah, they would use mercury. Right. So they were cleaning up, but then they were also probably like hitting themselves in the head with a mallet.

57:04David Sims:Everyone was crazy back then. You know what I mean?

57:10David Sims:David? What? I've heard of August Rush.

57:13Griffin Newman:Okay.

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57:19Griffin Newman:No, August rush was Freddie Highmore. It was Freddie Highmore.

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59:06Griffin Newman:as I already alluded to you got three big gangster movies this year you have Miller's Crossing which is this sort of stately almost to a point film right like where it's like it's so painterly and beautiful you got Goodfellas which is like Scorsese poking the gangster movie in the eye I feel like right like he's like this is not the godfather these people were not classy they did not like all dress like beautifully and like have poetic conversations in dark rooms. They were like weird little psychos as God bless them. And it's about how being a gangster is fun. It's super fun. And then someone might shoot you because you were annoying for one minute or said something.

59:42Griffin Newman:In The Godfather, it's like, may I have permission to shoot? Yes. You know, I love The Godfather to be clear, but I feel like Scorsese's like, come on, like let's. And then the part was Home Alone. No, you have The Godfather Part 3. I put Home Alone in there.

59:57David Sims:I think Home Alone is kind of important in this.

59:58Griffin Newman:I don't know that the wet mandates were organized crime. I think they were kind of just a sort of a stack operation.

1:00:05David Sims:That's the pointed satire of the film. They're disorganized crime. What were you going to say about The Godfather Part 3?

1:00:10Griffin Newman:Well, it's just, obviously that's a flood movie. I don't know if you agree. Maybe you think The Godfather Part 3 is perfect up and down, but you know. I do think it's flood. It's a movie where you feel like Coppola's maybe not, his heart isn't in all of it as much as the first ones. There's lots of interesting stuff. Yeah. But it's got a bit of a red, a lot of great ideas. Right. And it is also kind of about the gangsters of old who are so finally appointed are getting a little garish. There's a lot of gross money, right? There's the whole thing with the Vatican. Whatever. It's just like tarnishing.

1:00:44Griffin Newman:And the Miller's Crossing is more the sort of picture-perfect Norman Rockwell gangsters. I don't know how to describe them.

1:00:51David Sims:Which is what they're obsessed with preserving. The sense of this means something.

1:00:55Griffin Newman:And the whole Bushido, you know, of like, if Leo says so, then you got your marching orders. And like, that's what you do. Miller's Crossing is pastiche. Yes. And it's like, you know, like a tribute to a way of making movies and a style of filmmaking that, you know, that is very classic, but is dead. And so, you know, it's not a surprise that Miller's Crossing like wasn't a commercial hit. but now for now for me I feel like it's such a successful tribute that like I I put it with those movies I put it with sure it fits into the yeah yeah with those gangster films of the from yesteryear right yeah of like the 30s and 40s and you know films like um god I'm trying to think like I the roaring 20s it's a little I mean those Cagney movies are not quite this energy I guess yeah I'm trying to think like what what would I put this with because it is so hammock that it's that it makes me think of those books more than it makes me think of any film which is what they're saying like they are like our big inspiration is more books versus us doing our version of the big sleeper what you know like whatever you know Key Largo I mean I don't know any gangster movie there's so many gangster movies that you could think of

1:02:15David Sims:well and for how classical it is I think it's hard to put it up against the films from the actual era because what it has is the distance and the perspective to be mourning the loss of this. Yeah. I mean, it feels like a Michael Curtiz film or something. That's a good call. As far as how they shoot it, the dialogue is more stylized than anything.

1:02:38Griffin Newman:Should I watch every Michael Curtiz movie? No. There's like 400. But there's so many of them. But there's so many great ones. I feel like I've seen... There's so many great ones. The only gangster movies I've seen is Angels of Dirty Faces, which is very, very good. It's great. But I don't, I'm not actually that up to, you know, up on his like his vast amount of output. I've seen Casablanca, which I'm a fan of that one. Yeah, it's good. I actually think that movie's well written. I've seen like Captain Blood. I've seen, but yeah, I'm not a big Michael Curtiz expert. Yankee Doodle Dandies. I have seen that many years ago.

1:03:10Griffin Newman:The Breaking Point. The Sea Wolf. I don't think I've seen that. That sounds good. What's that? What's up with that?

1:03:14David Sims:Is it a boat movie or a wolf movie? It's another boat movie. Okay. Michael Curtiz never made a talking wolf movie, did he? Like a talking animal picture? No, I don't think so.

1:03:23Griffin Newman:He was, what, Hungarian, right? Yes. Anyway, okay, Miller's Crossing. This is their second Circle film, which Bloodsip will also...

1:03:30David Sims:Yes, Circle just signs up and is like,

1:03:32Griffin Newman:we get it, we're in the Coen's business for the long term. It's 20th Century Fox, who funds most of the movie, who had obviously done Raising Arizona. Ben Barinholtz is the guy they're working with, and basically they had this arrangement early in their career where Circle film was basically like, do what you want, we'll sell the movie. and, you know, I mean, there's nothing like that arrangement now. Like, the way things work back then does seem kind of unique. Or maybe the art film scene was a little... Well, you had, you know, you had home video and that just, that made everything less of a risk, you know?

1:04:06Like, if it doesn't make its money in theaters, it's, you know, it's gonna make its money on video. This movie was seen as a flop,

1:04:15David Sims:but it also cost less than$10 million. so yes the budget's a little right they're like between foreign sales and TV and video I'm not worried I think their only their only meaningful flop was was Hux Hux Hux Rexy right that's the only one that ever you know probably like led to some serious discussions about like how do we play the next one yes right we actually need to think be sort of thoughtful of our budget next and now this also feels like a movie that today even if a studio were to say sure we'll make this it would be green light contingent on you getting one of 10 actors. Yeah, fucking gangster squad.

1:04:52David Sims:That they could get people to sign up. Right, well, that's contingent on you getting five of the biggest stars simultaneously. Right, get a bunch of big actors. Gabriel Byrne is not a star. Exactly. No, I was about to speak to him. And by the way, this is our guy we're picking. And they're like, the fifth lead from Excalibur?

1:05:07Griffin Newman:Right, a casting director turns them on to him. Right, he'd done Excalibur and The Keep and Lionheart. You know, it's like he's a guy. he's not famous at all.

1:05:18David Sims:Had he ever been

1:05:18Griffin Newman:the center of a movie?

1:05:19David Sims:Certainly not a Hollywood film.

1:05:21Griffin Newman:Not a big movie. And then he basically becomes shorthand

1:05:25David Sims:for the rest of the 90s. Now you've worked with Gabriel Byrne. I have and he's one of my favorite people. He's a really, really wonderful man.

1:05:36Griffin Newman:Famously a guy I've seen on the street many times for some reason to the point where I was like, what's going on? You should say hello. He's just a good guy. He's great. I am a big fan of what happens to him in Hereditary. I think one time I interviewed you, I just think it's so funny that if you think about that movie just from Gabriel Byrne's perspective. Yeah, he really didn't ask for any of this. He asks for none of it. Almost every scene, he's like, what? As some fucking insane, you know, further breakdown. And then he just catches on fire. And that's the, I'm sorry that I'm spoiling all your movies on this podcast.

1:06:10Griffin Newman:It's fine. I mean, but if you, if you rewatch Hereditary and you're like, Like, let me just get right into Byrne's perspective. He really shouldn't have married her. I'm sorry to say. Sorry to be rude to Tony, who's, you know, a luminous creature or whatever. But he should not have married into that family. No, he, you know, he took a wrong turn somewhere. Was casting him in Hereditary partially inspired by this?

1:06:35David Sims:Is this your favorite performance of his? Yeah. I was super starstruck by him because of this. And he's got an iconic face, like a low-key icon. Nobody really looks like him. He's got a great face, great eyes, great presence. He's just a very grounded, authoritative... You take him seriously. Incredible voice. Deep well of bottled emotion. You can just cut to him listening to a conversation and be endlessly fascinated by what is this guy thinking right now.

1:07:09Griffin Newman:Yeah, they love him. he is the one who insists on the Irish accent which they're resistant to but obviously I think good call.

1:07:17David Sims:It's also a light lilt Sure, yeah, he's not like, oh hello, you know, yeah, no, it's a Stop chomping on potatoes, but it helps in this way that like these people are the early wave of Americanization. They're all kind of one foot in, one foot out. Of course, it also makes him a bit of an outsider in the film. Absolutely. Even though Leo, you know, the Albert Finney character is also you know ostensibly you know like Irish. And Finney has similar he's putting a little tiny inflection sometimes.

1:07:47Griffin Newman:Yeah. He says obviously as you often will hear about Cohen's directing style would be fairly just kind of like you know rudimentary or not too involved and one point he said what's the significance of the hat and Ethan replied and that was it. Yes. Another point he said like I think in this scene I'll like walk out of the room I'll put the drink down walk out of the room and they were like he would never leave a drink like in the glass finish the drink but that's good direction that's what I mean like they're on they're on those points

1:08:15David Sims:like right that's a key detail of the character yeah

1:08:18Griffin Newman:obviously right Trey Wilson dies right before the shoots of art gonna start they delay 10 days and Albert Finney pops in like how do they even

1:08:28David Sims:get through to him

1:08:29Griffin Newman:I know they're at Fox 1-800-ALBERT no I don't I don't know Finney says he also Finney apparently also got a little put a little more Irish on it Ethan quote from Ethan Cohen. We got mugged by the Irish. Albert Finney, of course, is not Irish, but he is British. And yeah, he just really wanted to do it. And he was really into the attendant thing. He begged for that. They were like, no. And he was like, please. I mean, British guys love to dress a drag like that is number one, like, you know, just to do some panto, essentially. Yeah. This is Marsha Gay Harden's in the tea over there. Yeah. 100%.

1:09:05Griffin Newman:This is Marsha Gay Harden's like first role, basically in a movie. She's in Angels in America on Broadway. Okay. But she didn't originate it. Yes, she did. Why do you think Debra Messing originated this? You thought very wrong, my friend. Okay. But that I think is actually maybe after this. Yeah, that's in like 93.

1:09:26David Sims:This is one of those performances where I, when I saw this for the first time, I went like, I kind of now understand better why she won the Oscar for Pollack. Yeah. It's also because she says in that movie, you've done it, Pollock. You broke it wide open, which is something you have to do in a biopic. You have to say. You have to have somebody say, this is history. Jackson, no pressure, but if you fleck this paint correctly, you might be remembered for the rest of time.

1:09:55Griffin Newman:The best scene in Pollock is when he's biking and he's got all the fucking booze on the bike and he falls off the bike.

1:10:00David Sims:I don't think she's bad in Pollock, but this is one of those things where you watch. She did 30 years. You watch the performances someone gives before they win the sort of surprise Oscar and you're like, oh, this is everyone years later catching up and being like, we probably should have given her more credit earlier. She's phenomenal in this. She's a great actor. She's great in this. She's very sexy. Are you allowed to say that? We're allowed to say that.

1:10:25Griffin Newman:Yeah, we don't tone police on this podcast, okay? We are allowed to call Marcia Gay Harden circa 1990. Sensuous. She's very sexy. Very smoky sexy. I feel like, you know, they're, again, you know, like they're evoking.

1:10:37David Sims:Obviously, the sexiest performance in this film is John Pulido. I mean, Pulido is one of the best actors to ever do it. You know. Yes. John Pulido is so amazing.

1:10:48Griffin Newman:He, I mean, apparently basically just walked in and they were like, great. Like, you know, like they saw tons of guys and then he walked in. And he continues to be amazing in all of their films. As Creighton Tolliver. He feels like they built these sets, though, and he just walked in. you know what I mean? Like the sets just summoned him in costume. Like they didn't even have to find out about him. He's great. I love him in Lebowski. Yeah, of course. I think he's so funny in that movie. As a brother Seamus. Yes, exactly. He's one of those great character actors because he just is a type. Like he's just, you know, you couldn't get somebody to play Johnny Casper who wasn't Johnny Casper.

1:11:25David Sims:I'm trying to see if I can find this because it doesn't look like J.J. put it in the dossier, but I think it's his random roles he did for the A.V. Club where he talks about that he wanted this role really badly and the Coens wouldn't see him for it because he had read maybe for Blood Simple. And at that point, he was like, I was a heartthrob. I had a full head of hair and I was like 40 pounds lighter. And they were like, that guy's a pretty boy. And he kept being like, you don't understand what I look like now. And he was saying this all with this attitude of, I'm so glad I'm no longer a pretty boy and I could get to play guys like Johnny Caspar.

1:11:59David Sims:like there was this part of him that this was always in his soul and the body was wrong for a while and then he aged like milk and walked in and they were like as you said holy shit you're right you're perfect and it was like finally unlocked for him of like this is the guy I've always wanted to be this movie it is astonishing to me that it didn't get a supporting actor nomination but then every time I watch it having only seen it two times I'm doing the math being like well who do you put

1:12:24Griffin Newman:well Totoro got critic awards and critic attention I feel like Totoro probably was the play because it's the showiest performance. And Finney's the biggest star in the legacy. Finney would have been the studio play, right, obviously.

1:12:35David Sims:But then Polito, I think, is the MVP of this movie. Polito's amazing. I love him. Aw, did somebody hit you? Just the look of What's a man? This is on the Rizzler.

1:12:50Griffin Newman:Coming in with the little sailor outfit. This is the first Totoro collaboration that he went to school with Francis McDormand so they knew him. obviously he also just sort of feels like a guy that's been in Coen Brothers movies that they built in a lab 100 % and I do think that he's amazed like yes he's you just want to reach in the screen and punch him like he's so awful and slimy and like so satisfied with himself yeah he's so unafraid of being a little douchebag the scene where he comes back and like same in the Spike Lee movie you know what I mean like I just feel like that was his like he's like yeah yeah yeah Do the right thing.

1:13:28Griffin Newman:Yeah. This is the year after. And he's in Jungle Fever. Jungle Fever. He's so nasty in that one. Yes.

1:13:33David Sims:But the scene where he shows up and now is like really feeling himself. I actually hold all the cards, right? I'm going to tell you what's up, Tom. And then within that, he starts to break down about his vulnerability of the actual reason he has to put his thumb on Tom is because Tom saw him break. and he doesn't want Tom breaking his tough guy image. And then he flips it back into, if you ever tried to shoot me again, I just scored a few tears. Like this flip of, I actually have the power because you know I'm not powerful. But also if you ever try to get the power back on me, I'll pretend I'm pitiful again.

1:14:16David Sims:When in reality, that wasn't a fucking move from him.

1:14:19Griffin Newman:No, he doesn't want to die. Yes. I mean, he's, I guess, the kind of guy that, like if Tom has a gun pointed at him, he's probably just going to like stoically be like, all right, right? I mean, he's probably not going to drop to his knees and go, look into your heart, you know. Do it again. He starts. No, Bernie would do it. I'm saying like that's in Bernie's nature.

1:14:38David Sims:No, no, Tom would just, yeah, he'd take it.

1:14:41Griffin Newman:Yeah. Yeah. Steve Buscemi gets the part because he can say the lines, essentially. They were like, we need someone fast. Ethan calls it a lost art, like horseback riding, which I like. And of course, Sam Raimi's in this film. They're still very close with him. They filmed the shoot in New Orleans, which I feel like is a classic place to film all the way up to now because it has all this old-fashioned architecture that you can still just use. That's why Fincher uses it for Benjamin Button. Right? Yeah, free production. You don't eat oaky. Yes. Right, that's Hammond, Louisiana, is Miller's Crossing, the trees and all that.

1:15:17Griffin Newman:But yeah, right. The general look is brown. Where did you shoot anything? You shot Eddington in New Mexico and Arizona? or like around there? I shot Eddington in New Mexico, primarily Truth or Consequences, but also a lot of stuff outside of Albuquerque and in Madrid. And I grew up in New Mexico. Right. This is my New Mexico movie. My cousin lives in Silver City, which I think of as like the sort of wrong side of New Mexico. Not in a bad way, but like not near all the sort of New Mexico stuff. Like you're not going to go get, ceramics or see opera or visit the George O 'Keefe house or whatever.

1:15:57Griffin Newman:It's all the way on the other side, but it is very, very, very cool over there. Yeah. It's a very specific place.

1:16:05David Sims:It's a weird place. I found the Polito interview. He had done Death of a Salesman and they had seen him in that and he was 35, 150 pounds lighter, full head of hair, and they called him in and wanted him to read for the Dane because they were like, that's his physical type. And he was like, between 35 and 39, I aged like 30 years, doubled my weight, lost my hair, and had to beg them to let him read for Casper. And then when he walked in the room, they were like, oh, you didn't tell us you look like this now.

1:16:36Griffin Newman:Barry Sonnenfeld, this is the last time he works with them. They wanted him, they just kept saying handsome and he didn't like that word. And they went back and forth and back and forth. And finally, Sonnenfeld said, quote, what if we just make it look nice? and they were like, yeah, that'd be great. So they agreed on nice versus handsome, but they, you know, I feel like they're, they want to be more conventional, less flashy, right? Like not as... It's a deeply brown film. Yeah, and the camera needs to be more stationary and it's a lot of conversation, so we're going to be, you know, being conventional.

1:17:07Their films with Sonnenfeld are, you know, the lighting is a lot more flat than what Deakins brings. He brings, like, a lot more mood and a lot more texture and... And depth. Yeah.

1:17:19Griffin Newman:Sonnenfeld never shoots another movie again, right? Like, this is it. Like, Adam's Family is what? 91 or 92? And Sonnenfeld's films, once he starts directing, look like these films. Yes. Like, Get Shorty, you know, kind of looks like a contemporary Miller's Crossing. Yeah, no, absolutely. He shot Misery the same year. He shoots Misery for Rob Reiner, which is a great looking movie. And When Hermit's All is the year before this? Yes. And then that's it. And Adam's Family is 91. So it's like really much, you know, and like, look, those early Sonnenfeld movies are so good looking. Like, I love those 90s Sonnenfeld movies.

1:17:56Griffin Newman:Like, they look fabulous. Adam's Family Values. Adam's Family Values is a masterpiece. Red and Black is wonderful. And then... Wild Wild West still looks good.

1:18:06David Sims:Sure.

1:18:07Griffin Newman:I'd argue everything from the 2000s on stops looking good. It's weird that they stopped looking good. That's what I was trying to describe him. And it's not like I hate Barry Sonnenfeld and I know you've worked with Barry Sonnenfeld, but like... I never worked. I guess he never worked directly with him.

1:18:19David Sims:He had a contractual position. I just want to make it clear with no disrespect. I never met the man.

1:18:24Griffin Newman:But it is odd that he went away from the really ornate stuff and started doing more conventional kind of comedies and stuff. RV looks insane.

1:18:31David Sims:He's doing a thing in that, or whoever his DP is, but it's, I would say, not successful. And then... You seen RV? Yeah, I have. Runaway Vacation? I have, yes. I've seen it. I saw it in theaters. and it didn't make the biggest impression on me. Fair enough. It didn't make your sight and sound top 10, right? No. I'm trying to remember. It was 11 on the list? It was edged out. Yeah. That has like the widest angle lenses in the world and has the color palette of like a fucking bag of Skittles. But then like Nine Lives looks terrible. Sure.

1:19:08Griffin Newman:Well, if there were some challenges with that one, probably. Carter Burwell score, you could say this about half a dozen Carter Burwell scores for the Coens, but it might be the best score he ever gave him. It's great. He's got so many great scores, but it's... Very romantic. Right, using these Irish melodies and all that stuff.

1:19:25David Sims:He can identify how in the middle of a piece he can just hit one note that suddenly fills the entire thing with dread and melancholy.

1:19:33Griffin Newman:They have Frank Patterson, the singer, record a new version. That's not a vintage Danny Boy. That's an original Danny Boy. That's probably the best sequence in the film. Yeah. it's pretty amazing. It's transcended. What do you think of a guy going, shooting the Tommy gun in a circle like five times while he's dying? It's just the greatest. I agree. I agree. I agree. If you don't like that, then you can just take your toys and go home. Different people. Yeah. And one of my favorite traditions in, you know, just in movies is, you know, the gun that has like endless ammo. Yes, right. And I feel like that's a gag that they kind of keep going back to.

1:20:11Like when the bar is being shot up by all the cops and there's the, just that, you know, it's just endless. You know what's

1:20:19Griffin Newman:fallen out of favor when characters are shot by a Tommy gun and they go like this? Yes. Like the real

1:20:26David Sims:gyrating. They're still standing up straight taking the bullet. Bullet after bullet. It's the Robocop boardroom. Yeah. The guy who does not lose his ability to stay upright while being filled with like 800. He gets, which also, which also happens to to Peter Willer. Yes. Yes, he does. He gets shot one gazillion times. But you don't fall over until the squibs stop. Was Eddington your first... You stay upright and take the Swiss cheese and lick me.

1:20:55Griffin Newman:Eddington's your first gun movie, right? Are there guns in Bo? There are guns in Bo. But Eddington is like action. I feel like you'd never directed gun action in that scale before. Bo has action scenes in it. They're just comic. Chasey and... They're comic, but it's actually the same. it's actually the same challenge which is like how do i sustain this action for as long as possible you know and action is just cause and effect uh and and but the cohen's are masters of prolonging set pieces um which again is the rube goldberg thing right you kind of can't believe we're still going yes yes but but eddington is uh the first time i've done like maybe what I guess you might call proper action, even though it's meant to be funny as well.

1:21:46David Sims:You have like, right, all the Denis Menoshe chase stuff in Bo. Well, exactly. Right, which feels a little Raising Arizona. Yeah. We've been saying this in other episodes that I'm sure will come out 15 years from now, but they are like, for not being thought of as action filmmakers at all, anytime they do an action sequence, you are reminded they are amongst the best on the planet. I mean, obviously, like, they have as good a sense of... No country. They're better at establishing spatial geography. Yeah. No, they're incredibly lucid. Everything they do is right. In some ways, they feel to me like the true successors to Hitchcock.

1:22:25And, I mean, they're the opposite in that, in their method, where Hitchcock would do... Sorry, I'm saying, I said Hitchcock. I actually meant Kubrick, but both, actually. They, um, uh, so now that I'm scrambled and I said Hitchcock, but I, I, but I said Hitchcock for a reason. Um, even though it was, uh, an accident. It was positive Freudian. Uh, which is, you know, that they, their films are incredibly designed. And when I was saying Kubrick, uh, and I was saying, you know, opposite methods, which is, you know, uh, that he would do endless takes and they, they tend to do very few takes. I find that their films are immaculately made.

1:23:11And then I think what really ties them to Kubrick is their sense of humor. Right, this particular kind of sense of humor. Which is like something between, well, it's sort of misanthropic, but then at the same time, it's also, you know, they're just Jews. It's just very Jewish. It does boil down to that.

1:23:33Griffin Newman:Whereas Hitchcock is just British. like and like all of his weird shit you're like right he's just a weird british guy and like they are just jews and this i mean like what i'm thinking or no country like no country is like would you would you take the money right you know like right at the start like there's a big briefcase full of money and like the jewish mother in me or the jewish like part of me is like no no no no like if you take that money like half your brother is gonna shoot you right you know like i can't yeah right well we're gonna we'll talk about it on that episode ben usually in these when he watches of these movies is like, I would take the money and be fine.

1:24:06Griffin Newman:If I were in this movie,

1:24:08David Sims:it would end with me owning an island and being happy. I'd make the right choice. Like Ben watched Sam Raimi's Simple Plan and was like, yeah, that would work out.

1:24:14Griffin Newman:I could solve this.

1:24:18David Sims:David. Yes. Everyone hates bank fees, right?

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1:25:17David?

1:25:18David Sims:Yes. Red alert. Uh-oh. There's been an outbreak. Biohazard. Of a new Patreon series. It's contagious. Oh, that's so true. It's been cooked up in the lab for your pleasure. From the fine folks at the Umbrella Corporation, we are covering Resident Evil. The film franchise.

1:25:42Griffin Newman:Yes. We've got the first franchise. Six movies. Yes. That beautiful second franchise. How many? Six? Seven? It's got the one movie. Oh, it's got the one. We'll be covering all of them on Patreon, doing commentaries on, yes, the Resident Evil, Apocalypse, Extinction, Afterlife, Retribution, the final chapter. Welcome to Reconciting.

1:26:02David Sims:This is an exciting time. Zach Kregger, friend of the podcast, has a new Resident Evil coming out. We thought this was a good opportunity to revisit the history of Resident Evil movies.

1:26:11Griffin Newman:Why not? Why not? Why can't we? Why can't we? We can. Check in for that August 1st, and it's going to be running all the way through November 1st.

1:26:21David Sims:Followed by your March Madness winner, Dracula. Dr. Acula himself. That's so fun. So that's great. That's great. Thank you. Thank you so much.

1:26:38Griffin Newman:Leo O 'Bannon is the mobster of a town, a city, whatever. We don't need to, we don't care to know what it is, I guess, in Prohibition. Yes. He's the Irish boss of what I consider to be sort of like a mid-sized city, right? Like, this is not New York, LA, or Chicago, right? Doesn't seem like it. Like, it feels more just like Gangsterville. yeah although I'm not sure if it's not Chicago maybe it's it feels it just feels like smaller than Chicago if that makes sense just because it is like he has a nice house and he has a nice club it doesn't feel like he runs this like big industrial city and like the mayor is just a schmo that he knows and the chief of police is another schmo and all that but he really likes this girl Verna Birnbaum I guess is her name

1:27:28David Sims:Leo's twist.

1:27:32Griffin Newman:And she's related to, she's the sister of Bernie, who is a bookie who has been skimming off of the match fixing arranged by Italian gangster Johnny Casper. And Johnny wants him dead. And Leo doesn't want him dead because he doesn't want to piss off Verna. And Tom is in this situation of like, do I give, you know, my boss really needs to kill this annoying Jewish guy. God bless you, Bernie. I'm Jewish just to be clear but I do hate Bernie because he's Jewish obviously

1:28:02David Sims:Bernie Sanders yeah you backed yourself into that one my brother

1:28:06Griffin Newman:you know like Tom is like torn between like I must show loyalty to my capo you know like right you know like I have to be like a loyal soldier and like I'm watching Leo piss it away and Leo maybe because he's old maybe because he's getting sentimental or whatever is just like I'll be fine like who cares like he has this like kind of suave like you know like like I deserve to be in love I don't know am I does anyone want to I'm just summarizing the plot of Miller's Crossing at this point I feel well you've left the Dane out of it and before we leave the Jewish thing too early no let's never leave it we're staying on it I just think I think there's also this really interesting thing that happens when they first start making films where especially Jewish critics like Jay Hoberman right are like alarmed accuse them of being anti-Semitic, which is so weird.

1:29:01And there is an interesting tradition among Jewish critics to disdain Jewish filmmakers. Yes. I won't expound too much further on that because... As a Jewish filmmaker? Well, as a Jewish filmmaker who has recognized that tradition playing out before his very eyes.

1:29:20Griffin Newman:I think there can be this reactionary sense sometimes of just like, don't get us in trouble or don't like sort of like shine a spotlight on all our nonsense or I don't know what it is. Or is it why these Jewish guys? I'm a Jewish guy. Maybe it's just rank jealousy.

1:29:39David Sims:There also, there is a thing we've talked about and the Coen brothers are like a big notable exception from this trend. But very often when the highest level, most prominent Jewish filmmakers finally make their sort of explicitly culturally Jewish movie, it feels like they are trying to goy wash it a little bit. There is this feeling that I've always found fascinating within these studios that are often run by Jewish people and these filmmakers that are predominantly Jewish making Jewish family movies and being like, but it can't be too Jewish. What are you thinking of? I mean, we talked about it a bit with The Fablemans.

1:30:11David Sims:Yeah, sure. Well, that's funny because the Fablemans and Serious Man couldn't be further... Those are two very different Jewish... Jewish-American films.

1:30:23Griffin Newman:Serious Man to me is the ultimate film about being Jewish American, right? Like that sort of crazy dichotomy. That's the great movie about Jewishness. That was on your Sight and Sound top 10, right? I think that was your Serious Man. It's another one that, well, Serious Man is there. It is there. Wow. I have this right here. It's there right under Showa. You're right.

1:30:45David Sims:They're the two. They're just a double feature. Armageddon Time was the same year as Fableman's. I love both of those movies, but they both have that thing of not casting a single Jewish actor.

1:30:55Griffin Newman:Well, with Armageddon in Time, I'm very sympathetic to James Gray needs actors who are famous to fund his movies and all that. Whereas Fabelman's, it was kind of interesting. But Fabelman's felt very honest to me from Spielberg in terms of like, this is about my Jewish identity and my upbringing, but we were also this kind of assimilationist family. And it's like, it's very vital to that movie. I love that movie.

1:31:15David Sims:The one I always throw out as Punching Bag is...

1:31:17Griffin Newman:Armageddon Time is like, we live on poisoned land. I mean, that's a masterpiece. I love that one.

1:31:21David Sims:Yes. A darker film. The one I always throw out as The Punching Bag is Sean Levy's This Is Where I Leave You. Sure, sure. A sitting shiver movie with a family comprised of Jane Fonda, Justin Bateman, Jason Bateman, Tina Fey. Adam Driver. Adam Driver, Corey Stoll. Yes. No, no, I've never seen that film. Deeply bizarre. That's on my site in Sound Top 10. Of course. And then there's like, you know, 10 Woody movies. Yeah, who? What? Which guy? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that becomes like his sub-genre, right? Like, I feel like he's viewed as one of the few guys where it's like, this guy makes Jewish family movies.

1:31:56David Sims:Yes. In a sort of sustained way.

1:31:59Griffin Newman:But he didn't make a lot of movies about his childhood. No. Well, there's Radio Days. There's Radio Days. There's the stuff in Annie Hall. There's a lot of stuff in Annie Hall. But he rarely did that. You know, he never made the Fablemans really. Radio Days is kind of Fablemans. Radio Days is the classic. Yeah.

1:32:15David Sims:I do think there's some weird kind of like call is coming from inside the house thing with the way people reacted to this at the time. But not Miller's. Wait, wait. No, when you were saying the sense of some accusations of this movie being anti-Semitic at the time. Or their general...

1:32:35Griffin Newman:Because also, again, John Turturro, who is 100 % Italian, is a Sicilian guy.

1:32:43David Sims:Isn't that Anthony Quinn mode of this guy has a lot of face, so we'll have him play every single ethnicity possible.

1:32:48Griffin Newman:But also, it's like this quiz show, I feel like there's a Barton Fink... He had a big Jew run. Right. He was playing these kind of, these Jewish characters who are often like perceived by the world to be very annoying in the movie. Yeah, I mean, that is what Quiz Show is about. Yeah, Quiz Show is basically just the whole movie is them rubbing their temples being like, but he's so annoying. Like, we can't have this guy on television. We can't.

1:33:11David Sims:TV executives will literally commit fraud in order to get John Turturro off television. Yeah, if it were radio,

1:33:17Griffin Newman:it would have been fine. Absolutely. And this movie is just like, you know, the problem is if they just fucking shoot Bernie we're fine right? there's no plot. Yes I think so. I guess Verna breaks up with Leo or is Casper probably going to cause trouble anyway? No I mean there's still a movie probably but this is such a there are a lot of dominoes here so that's just one of the dominoes.

1:33:48David Sims:I think the world around is acknowledging what you called out or sensing what you called out, which is like, is Leo getting a little complacent?

1:33:57Griffin Newman:Yeah, and a little miss off. Is there an ability

1:33:59David Sims:to grab the chair here? It just feels like there's an energy swirling around of like, can the hierarchy of power change in the DC universe? Right.

1:34:07Griffin Newman:And Black Adam is just lurking around the court. No, what happens in this movie is like, Leo gets more power, knocks off his enemies, I guess, gets married to the lady he loves at the cost, basically, of his buddy, Tom, being friends with him. He really doesn't lose. Like, it's actually, everything works out great for him. But also, Tom is the one who orchestrated all of that happening. Tom makes all this happen. Right. And, like, Tom sacrifices their friendship, I guess, or decides not to be friends with them anymore.

1:34:43David Sims:There's this feeling for all of the internal conflict that the movie almost circles all the way back to the starting point. obviously a tremendous amount has happened at the center but in terms of the key dynamics between the three people they've all reset to where they were at the beginning well it feels like Tom by the end you realize that Tom was ready to sacrifice everything to basically just win Leo the war you know like Leo gets himself into this fix and Tom doesn't agree with it but everything that happens in the film is kind of revealed to be Tom, despite, you know, having misgivings there.

1:35:24Like, you know, kind of putting himself in hot water to get Leo out of this. He basically has two great loves in his life

1:35:33David Sims:that are almost equal, who are Verna and Leo. I would say his two great loves are booze and gambling,

1:35:38Griffin Newman:but yes. Drink and game. Right. But I mean, his relationship with Verna is not loving. He doesn't seem like a guy who's very good

1:35:47David Sims:at being emotional. But I think he's in love with her. It's not a loving relationship. He's definitely obsessed with her. Right, but that's what I'm saying. In both cases, like the whole thing of him getting in the fight with Leo. Well, he loves Leo more. I think that's what it is, is that he has really strong feelings for her, but he can't, you know, he can't allow it. The moment where she says... Despite the fact that he's doing it. Right. He's doing it, but... He gets in the fight with Leo to say to her, I love you, because he can never say that. And even when she calls him out, he won't admit it, right?

1:36:15David Sims:And likewise, the entire movie is his way of saying I love you to Leo which he could never say verbally and the moment he decides to actually shoot Bernie is the moment that his love for Leo trumps his love for Verna that's true in my mind not to over he's also pretty fucking sick of Bernie at that point that's a huge part of it but there is this kind of like also Bernie has to die so that Albert Finney can go to the funeral and wear a yarmulke one of the greatest decisions which is just such a funny do you know what I love about that moment. I love imagining this entirely dramatic scene playing out and the Coens just laughing hysterically behind the monitor at we got Albert Finney to wear a yarmulke that it was the only thing they were paying attention to.

1:36:59David Sims:It is the most justified the entire movie. You're right. It's setting up just to get to that one image. But it's also,

1:37:07Griffin Newman:I mean, the emotional decision, like I don't think Tom makes a strategic decision in not killing Bernie, right? Like, that is his heart or whatever getting the better of him. Don't you think?

1:37:21David Sims:No, because if he was doing it for Verna, he would have told her much sooner. He holds onto it for so long and lets her hate him. Well, no, I think he's doing it for Verna in the truest sense. When he says, look into your heart,

1:37:33Griffin Newman:that's literally what he's, she's in his heart. But he's not letting himself get any credit with her for doing that. Because that scene is so iconic. Obviously, it's the poster of the film and it's sort of the best you can remember. It's the notion of what happens in this place in the deep world. It's so funny because it's like, yeah, he throws his shot away and he's like, get out of here. I'll never see you again. Bernie is back in 10 minutes. Right. Bernie, do you think Bernie even like goes to another town? He just like doesn't walk around the forest. Yeah, he starts feeling embarrassed and he's like, I don't like this feeling.

1:38:04Right. Fuck him. Right. What am I going to do with my life?

1:38:07David Sims:Like I would have put a grenade in Bernie. I'm going to start going to restaurants. Right. Yeah, yeah. That is a good threat. Yes. No, that's what's so stupid about it is like, you can't trust this guy for a millisecond. He's going to get so antsy so quick. Well, because ethically, he's kind of shaky.

1:38:24Griffin Newman:Yeah. You think Bernie? Yeah. He doesn't have like a rigid moral code that he abides by or anything like that. I'm quoting John Pulido just to be clear. Yes. There's one moment where they use the word glitch in this movie. Oh, interesting.

1:38:37David Sims:No, no. I'm sorry. That's no country.

1:38:39Griffin Newman:Sorry. I'm also right now. Anyway, carry on.

1:38:41David Sims:And Break It Ralph. That's the movie you're thinking of.

1:38:43Griffin Newman:they use the term glitch you seen Rick and Ralph never saw it isn't that John C.

1:38:49David Sims:Reilly I'm a John C. Reilly fan additional writing credit John C. Reilly as well I think he did a pass on his dialogue Ben's number one hero Dr.

1:38:58Griffin Newman:Steve Bruhl so okay so Leo is Johnny's basically saying I want to kill this guy Bernie Leo will not lift his protection on Bernie and so a sort of mob war heats up in the background which is mostly like them just fucking with each other's clubs and Tom getting you know the shit beat out of him I think the scene where who's the big guy who Tom hits with the chair who's the actor he's the guy from Dumb and Dumber exactly like that it's one of those guys he's the guy with the most annoying sound in the world yeah and he's the one who goes Jesus Tom Jesus Tom and just a little piece of trivia there that gets cut out of the Criterion version what?

1:39:45why? so my editor Luke Johnston is Joel's editor right now Luke's been working with them since Buster Scruggs I know that they went back into the cut and they just took out a few things and one of the things is him saying Jesus Tom another is that's so funny another is the woman in the Shenandoah Club who's like who goes who screams

1:40:10Griffin Newman:That I can see them being like, we're being a little too silly here. Like, I can sort of understand losing that moment because it's almost like a Raising Arizona moment in Miller's Crossing. Raising Arizona, they do it in Hudsucker too. Yes. Oh, right. When the guy splats, yes. Splats and there's the big lady. It fits there. It's always a big lady. Yeah.

1:40:30David Sims:But isn't there also a moment in Hudsucker at the party where he tries to speak, I forget what language it is, and says the thing that offends the one so dearly they do the same moment again. In the what? In the... In Hudsucker. He's at... Oh, well, there's also the Peter Gallagher party. Yes. There's the blue letter. Right. Right? Where, like, he comes in with the blue letter and we push into the screaming mouth of one of the women in the waiting room. Yes. The Paul Newman secretary. Yes. And then what's the one you're talking about? You're talking about... Maybe I'm confusing this, but there's at the Peter Gallagher ball.

1:41:05David Sims:Oh, Peter Gallagher. In Hudsucker. There are the two, like, rich women. Yes. I feel like he tries to speak to the woman in like Dutch and says something that's accidentally... Yeah, right. He says something in... I don't know if it's Dutch, but... And then the woman is scandalized and she screams and the guy throws his martini in his face and punches him. Right. But it feels... That's a very Raimi-influenced thing. That feels like... Right. The evil in the woods as the camera. Those moments

1:41:35Griffin Newman:where they go off. Yeah. In this early chunk of the movie, you have this sense of like, everyone's still with Leo, the cops and the political firm. But Tom is sort of pointing out over and over again, like your support is kind of weak. The moment the cops come in and raid Casper's.

1:41:53David Sims:The clock, yes. Yes. No, but even his weird like hideout. Yes, right. His warehouse. Right. I guess they had been doing the gambling. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Just this feeling of there still are all these gentlemen agreements that are holding all these systems together.

1:42:09Griffin Newman:Then they try to kill Leo. The Tommy Gunn sequence we talked about. I mean, that sequence is perfect. But it's after that that Tom admits to Leo, like, you know, Bernie is not worth it. Verna is not worth it. For example, I am having an affair with this woman. Right. And they break.

1:42:25David Sims:There's the earlier scene with Leo where he keeps Verna in the room with the door closed and doesn't give it up. And at that moment, right. He creates the fissure. So why does he say it? Explain it to me. I'm dumb. I think in that moment he is considering the possibility of prioritizing his own happiness. I don't think he's committed to it. That was my read watching it last night.

1:42:49Griffin Newman:Or is it him being like, I have to break with Leo to like whatever, survive or have him survive or anything like that. Why does he reveal the affair to Leo? Or does he think Leo would be like, oh, well, actually, then I don't like her. I love you. I think it's because he wants I think it's because he knows he has to. Right. He needs to push away. Well, but he also needs he needs there to be a story. Like, he needs it to reach Johnny. Yeah, right. This is a real, like, I'm not an undercover agent. Yeah, exactly. He can't just come over saying, like, yeah, we got into a fight. It's his departed.

1:43:26David Sims:It's his, like, look, would a guy go this far? just to, right, take down a whole system.

1:43:33Griffin Newman:Man, that part is so good. When are we doing Marty? What Marty would you want? What's your favorite Marty? I mean, I know... What Marty would I want? Yeah. Maybe Age of Innocence. Maybe Last Temptation of Christ, just because that one doesn't get talked about enough. Or I would say I love Casino. I love Raging Bull. Love them all. I love them all. After Hours, King of Comedy. actually Silence I think is we've talked about this it's so under yes like that that's one of the greatest films ever made and it doesn't get talked about that way it's an astonishing movie and it does feel like it's weirdly been it needs like another 10 years for everyone to sort of whatever settle down and be like right yeah I would say Silence for me is is his best film this century and you like basically all the films you made this century yeah yeah I love them mall.

1:44:27I love Shutter Island. I love Shutter Island. It's amazing. That's a movie about friends, too. Irishman is incredible, too. Irishman is just great, great, great.

1:44:36David Sims:There's that interview he did a couple years ago where he's like, in retrospect, I regret making Shutter Island just because I'm getting older and who knows how many films I have left. Sure. It is such a...

1:44:46Griffin Newman:That's the one you regret? Exactly. It's a proof

1:44:48David Sims:of you operating at such a high level that you're like, Shutter Island was maybe kind of a toss-off. I could have done something with my time. It's so fucking good.

1:44:55Griffin Newman:It's incredible. But I really think that's a movie about friendship, too. Because that's Ruffalo being like, I made all this because I'm worried about you, buddy. I'm spoiling every movie. All right. So, okay. So, yes. He goes over to Casper. Casper is like, prove your, you know, make your bones by killing Bernie. And he does, he can't do it. And we've talked about all of this. I don't know why I'm going through this. He looks into his heart. He looks into his heart. And he sends Bernie on his way. and then I do feel like they must have gotten stuck on the last because that is when suddenly a ton of plot happens.

1:45:29Griffin Newman:How does this untangle? You have the sort of like the Dane who is Casper's right hand man but has a thing going on with the Mink but Mink is obviously with Bernie now and that's probably the chain of information that is the problem more than it right you know.

1:45:44David Sims:I want to call it something in the Miller's Crossing sequence the first one which is that it is the most iconic part of this movie and I feel like it's a thing people cite as like a level-up moment for Turturro in his career of, like, how did he access this level of, like, absolutely heartbreaking, pathetic vulnerability that is so uncomfortable? And then watching it last night, realizing 80 % of that sequence plays out on Gabriel Byrne's face. So much of what Turturro was doing is not on camera. Most of his pleading is off-camera dialogue over Gabriel Byrne weighing it. and it speaks to how effective what Totoro is doing that in your mind, you almost correct it to being like four minutes exclusively on him.

1:46:31Griffin Newman:It's a great performance and it's a great scene because you really have... I was watching with my wife and she was like doing other stuff and I was like, by the way, they're gonna... This scene is gonna be impossible to ignore, if that makes sense. Like, you can't even look at your laptop. Like, if you're just working while that scene is happening, you're like, Byrne, can you just let him go? Like, can you shut him up? Yes. let him go I don't care I just can't listen to him anymore isn't this the part of the movie where they start the whole like shoot him in the head kind of runner joke

1:47:02David Sims:yeah one in the head

1:47:03Griffin Newman:or one of the henchmen

1:47:04David Sims:is like you gotta do it twice you gotta stretch them once

1:47:07Griffin Newman:but it's such like gallows humor it's but it's very funny uh and I love that it just becomes this recurring line and they say one in the brain specifically yeah uh Polito really nails that part when he does it when he kills uh always put one in the brain yeah The Dane was written for Stormare, I've heard, which is crazy. And he wasn't available because he was like, Peter Stormare was always like doing like the Swedish King Lear or whatever. You know what I mean? Like he has like this whole other life where he would come into America and be like, yeah, I'll play some psycho for you. And then in Scandinavia, he's treading the board.

1:47:38David Sims:But I think Freeman's great in this. He's so good. And Fargo ends up being like the greatest role you could ever write for Stormare. I almost think Stormare would have been, he is so innately odd that it might have unbalanced this movie a little bit. there's something about the Dane being fairly stoic. Yes. The Dane's just kind of this rock. He's stoic, but he speaks more than Stormare in Fargo. Than Grimsrud, where I think his only line is unguent. Unguent. Right. Where is Pancake House? It's the inverses, like Freeman. I'm fucking hungry now, you know. I'm fucking hungry now, you know. Freeman can deliver this much dialogue.

1:48:13Griffin Newman:It's the most you've said of this entire car ride.

1:48:15David Sims:Freeman can deliver this much dialogue and still feel stoic and mysterious, if Peter Stormare is standing somewhere you're just like what the fuck is going on with that guy

1:48:25Griffin Newman:but there you have this like the most vulnerable moment Tom is in I feel is when he gets Polito to kill the Dane instead of him yes right like it's like that's the sort of like shakiest part of his entire scheme is is Polito's the most volatile Casper Johnny Casper's the most volatile element here right yes and he has to basically We convince him like, hey, no, your guy who's been with him for a long time is actually the guy double crossing you, not me.

1:48:54David Sims:It's also interesting that so many of their films are people getting in over their heads who don't understand how complicated the situation they're in is that they believe they have all the angles figured out. And the movie is constantly pulling back to reveal like there are 20 things they're not considering. This is all going to bite them in the ass.

1:49:11Griffin Newman:Because all this stuff is very simple. It's like he then handles Polito by being like, if I put him in the room with Bernie, one of them will kill each other. But this is one of their only movies. And he's like, and I figured it'll be Bernie

1:49:22David Sims:because he's the more desperate and he'll know what's coming. Whether or not you believe that Tom has all of this figured out from the beginning is one of their only movies where the person at the center does have a handle on everything. He seems pretty smart. Right. Yeah. I feel like a minute one, you're like, this guy's smart. Right. This is the smartest guy in the movie. Their other films are just someone immediately gets in over their head and keeps digging deeper.

1:49:43Griffin Newman:They usually make movies about idiots. Yes. Or like you have like Francis McDormand in Fargo or Tommy Lee Jones in No Country where you're like, this person is upright, but they're not really, they're coming in and viewing what's going on. Llewellyn Moss isn't an idiot,

1:49:57David Sims:but he doesn't understand what he's getting into. I think Llewellyn... People thought I was too critical of the characters in Blood Simple being dumb, but it's more that they're oblivious. You don't think Llewellyn Moss,

1:50:10Griffin Newman:he's not an idiot. Josh Brolin in No Country. He just makes some mistakes, you know? Bringing the water back out. I mean, even if he didn't do that, though, he still would have the tracking device with the... Right, he's fucked no matter what. Yeah. And also, the thing in No Country is like, you could give the money back, it doesn't matter. And Tommy Lee Jones there is ineffectual. Like, he's... Or he's just like, I don't know what to do about this. Yeah, he's... He's like, I can't operate on this level.

1:50:36David Sims:Like, this is exhausting. I think the defining feature of a Cohen idiot, though, is the confidence that they have it figured out.

1:50:42Griffin Newman:Yeah, then Llewellyn doesn't have. every Clooney character, like, you know, whatever. Right, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:50:47David Sims:Pitt and Burn After Reading, the sort of, like, I have every angle. Well, everybody in Burn After Reading. Everybody in Burn, like, even Malkovich, like, who thinks he's smart or whatever. Like, yes, yes. He's the one who, at the end, runs out of his house in a robe with a hatchet and chops George Clooney

1:51:04Griffin Newman:to death. Right. No, it's, uh, it's Richard Jenkins. Yes. Poor Jenkins. Jenkins is that classic Cohen, like they find him, I think for, is it intolerable or is it Man Who Wasn't There is the first time he works with him? Man Who Wasn't There, he plays the lawyer, the alcoholic lawyer. And I feel like they're just like, oh, we need to like, just put this guy through the blender. Like they love, like, you're a friend of Jenkins. My friend brings him into Olive Kitteridge, which is great. Yes. Whoever hasn't seen Olive Kitteridge that's listening in on this is a, that's a great, it's a miniseries.

1:51:36Griffin Newman:I watched it at the time it was on HBO, yeah. It's great. Jenkins, the king. I love Richard Jenkins. You've never used Richard Jenkins. What's the matter with you? He's busy. He is busy. That guy works. He's been a little... He hasn't really done much recently, but he played Jeffrey Dahmer's dad in the Dahmer thing. It's one of those things where you're like, where's Jenkins? And they're like, ah, fuck, he was busy playing Jeffrey Dahmer's dad. He's in season 12 of a CBS sitcom called Rich. He had one leading role, like The Visitor, right? the Tom McCarthy. He's great in.

1:52:10David Sims:There was one that came out during the pandemic that was a Sundance movie that then went straight to drive-ins that was him running like a restaurant. It's called The Last Shift. Yes.

1:52:18Griffin Newman:And I know that because Divine Joanne Randolph is in that movie and when she won the Critics Circle Award for New York, she asked for him to introduce her and we were like, why Richard Jenkins? She was like, we did this movie together and we love each other and he gave the sweetest, like most loving intro for her for a movie, rooted in a movie I've never seen.

1:52:38David Sims:the last shift. That felt like a movie that people liked at Sundance and it was like this is going to be one we'll talk about in the fall and then the fall was that. It was 2020. Yes.

1:52:48Griffin Newman:Could we just quickly shout out if we're going back into the plot. I love Polito's cousins the twins trying to get the position. It's just such a stupid silly little thing.

1:53:00David Sims:and the mayor and she's like Tom can't you tell him? Polito kicking the mayor out of his own office so he can sit behind the desk. Yes. Yeah. Polito's just extraordinary in this, and it is... I'll keep talking this series about Ethan's line about he thinks the defining trait of a director is tone management. And Polito is doing a different size performance than everyone else in this movie, and yet there is a core humanity to what he's playing that stops it from being a cartoon character. And it's the biggest part he ever had. Even with the Coens, he shows up... he's more of a sort of one to two team player.

1:53:38He's pretty silent in Barton Fink. They use him basically

1:53:41David Sims:as a joke of misdirect in Barton Fink to be like, you're used to that guy yelling. Yeah, but Michael Lerner comes in and... Right. Here's who yells at Pulido. That's a great performance. Incredible. He's amazing. I had an experience working with Michael Lerner on Bo is Afraid. Right. I'll actually leave it at that. But he was... No, that was very near the end of his life, I imagine, because he died in 2023. Yes. Yeah, but... Yeah, he's amazing. It felt like Lerner kind of got the praise that Polito should have gotten of the rolling effect of the Coens building this type of character and the fun of watching a guy like this burst blood vessels and speak continuously

1:54:20Griffin Newman:for 10 minutes. Aren't Lerner's only two Coen roles, Barton Fink and Serious Man? Like, is he in another Coen Brothers movie? Because him and Serious Man is such a funny end to his collaboration where he just walks in the room and keels over. I think that's it. I don't think he's in. Yeah, he's not in any other. With the pipe. With the pipe. He's got the pipe in his mouth. Where they're like, he's figured out that he's just fucking. Where he comes in with all the papers. It's one of my favorite gags in that movie. So, Miller's Crossing.

1:54:47David Sims:Yeah, you know, a bunch of shit happens. Polito will just do these, like, precision turns, though, within a monologue. Like, the density of the language, which is so precise and so often playing out in these long takes. And then he will have, like, six emotional swings within it. And it never feels like he's pushing. And there are moments where he's doing, like, like, sketch comedy-esque moves of, like, sitting with his jaw hanging open in, like, disbelief, like, sort of, like, cartoonish shorthand of a visual representation of an emotion, and yet he's still making it feel like this is a real person and a person who has a credible threat.

1:55:22David Sims:He's just, like, extraordinary in this.

1:55:24Griffin Newman:I love Olek Krupa. He's the guy I keep calling the A, right? Yeah. Yeah. He's great. Bernie's Urset's roommate right yes yeah I don't know Michael Jeter's in this movie didn't clock him and Danny Aiello I also didn't catch no no no no it's Danny Aiello the third that's why it's Danny Aiello's son okay who is one of the cops got it but not senior right no I was looking for Jeter

1:55:55David Sims:and I don't know where he is

1:55:56Griffin Newman:I don't either

1:55:57David Sims:yeah yeah apparently he's like one of the gangsters we just always like to do a Jeter corner I like that

1:56:03Griffin Newman:old the captain the old guy the police captain the police captain that guy's great yeah that guy really gets made fun of too and like he's he's making a good fucking point and like you know Tom's too hard on him even the way Tommy has a relationship with the cops every time they show up is a funny gag too where he's just like good to see you bud and he just like strolls out it's also like the Irish cops neither rain nor wind nor snow that's the mailman so good

1:56:31David Sims:uh No, but there's like the tribalism vaguely of like the Irish cops are always going to side up with the Irish gangsters. It's better that they're running the crime.

1:56:39Griffin Newman:They'd rather that be it. Right. This film was initially called The Big Head, which is supposedly like the nickname for Tom Reagan.

1:56:50David Sims:That is a good title. Miller's Crossing is a better title for this movie.

1:56:53Griffin Newman:Miller's Crossing is a great title for a painterly gangster. I would like to see a movie called The Big Head. Sure.

1:56:58David Sims:I want that to exist.

1:57:00Griffin Newman:Ari is there anything in this movie we haven't touched on that you want to talk about before you know I just you know I don't want to like bring us into the box office game and such before you know because it is so rich with little details yeah I don't know let me see the last scene is like something of a nod to the third man yes no definitely yes and the third man is always a great way to end the movie yeah I think like you know having everyone kind of take stock and be like I guess we're not friends anymore is a great way to yeah definitely and just like a long forest road where somebody's walking towards you and then walks right past, which is a little different here, but it's definitely evoking that.

1:57:39David Sims:But you also have Tom tilting his hat down and then the camera kind of swooping up under him to be able to catch his eyes. Yeah. And staying on Gabriel Byrne with the saddest eyes in the world.

1:57:49Griffin Newman:What's he going to do now? It is my favorite kind of ending.

1:57:52David Sims:Is he going to just drink like one billion gallons of whiskey and die? My favorite kind of ending in movies, period, is character goes through a whole insane thing. They've made it out the other side and then the ending is, what the fuck do I do now? Yeah. Anytime someone pulls that card, it works for me. And Gary Brown is like a perfect face to do that with. Yeah. And I think just going back to the third man, I do feel like that a lot of their DNA is there in that film. They've talked about that film being important to them, but I mean, even just the eccentricity of the score in that film. The zither.

1:58:27Yeah, the zither. And then the opening uh the opening narration which I believe is Carol Reed speaking oh sure which is you know Graham Greene you know writing the irreverence of that opening narration in the third man just feels like uh it just it just feels important for them yeah and

1:58:50David Sims:the friction of these elements shouldn't be put together this is not the normal way to tell this story right I just remember yes There are a lot of filmmakers, I would say, are very important to them, like Lubitsch and Billy Wilder. Preston Sturgis, obviously. They cannot shake Preston Sturgis. No. Nor should they. No. And then The Third Man, especially, just feels important.

1:59:14Griffin Newman:Carol Reed's so weird to me because he's made a bunch of great movies. He also won Best Picture for Oliver, which is not a film since I was a kid. Right. But I doubt one of his better movies. I'd say three especially great movies. Like Third Man, The Fallen Idol, and what's the other one? And Odd Man Out. Right. Those are, and like, and they're all Graham Greene. Right. And Third Man is correctly venerated, but I feel like he is not talked about in the sort of, whatever, great directors of his era. The Fallen Idol might be my favorite. Fallen Idol is so good. One of the best kid performances ever.

1:59:45David Sims:I just remember seeing Third Man for the first time after hearing people talk about it so long, and that so much of the framework was also, and obviously, one of the greatest film scores of all time. And I'm seeing these noir images and Orson Wells and the hat and the tunnel and all this stuff. And in my head, I'm like, oh, I can imagine what the score is. And then the movie starts, as you said, with this, like, jaunty narration and the zither music and that immediate feeling of, this is not what I think the tone of this movie is supposed to be. How is that going to get to that point is the kind of thing that feels like animates the Collins.

2:00:16Also, Joseph Cotton's kind of, like, bumbling buffoon. He's so good, man. Like, the audience surrogate being something of a... The character of a buffoon is important for them as well.

2:00:29Griffin Newman:Joseph Cotton and John Goodman of his day. You know why? Why? Never got an Oscar nomination. Oh. It's like one of those guys where you're like, he's in like half, you know, 12 masterpieces. John Goodman of his day. Yeah.

2:00:41David Sims:No, fair enough. To the hat point. I'm glad that I got you with that one. Yeah, no, it was good. I was trying to do the math on that. Did he ever play Roseanne Barr's husband? Yeah. Did he live long enough? His last movie is Heaven's Gate, I think. Like, he doesn't live long enough. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just because you invoked Lubitsch. There's the famous Lubitsch anecdote that I don't think ever made it into a movie is always retold as like a great example of the Lubitsch touch, but I think was in some development session where they were had like four pages of dialogue of a couple fighting to show that the love had gone out of their marriage, an older couple.

2:01:14David Sims:And then he said, scrap all of that. They're in an elevator. He's wearing a hat. A younger woman walks onto the elevator and he takes off his hat.

2:01:22Griffin Newman:oh wow

2:01:23David Sims:and you're like it's one of the greatest like fucking show don't tell examples of a thing that maybe never made it to screen but I kept thinking this while watching the movie last night and the importance of the hat of just like it's not that the hat represents something it's that the hat can be a communicator definitely what people put on the hat is the point

2:01:43Griffin Newman:and if you get your hat knocked off

2:01:45David Sims:you're vulnerable

2:01:45Griffin Newman:you feel vulnerable you're exposed the movie kind of uses

2:01:48David Sims:the hat in a similar trope of like right that's when you've lost your status. Do you think Tom's good at sex? I think he's really bad at it. You think he's really bad at it? Yeah. He's not good at talking. I think he has to be good at sex.

2:02:02Griffin Newman:He's a bad communicator.

2:02:02David Sims:I think he has to be good at sex. Otherwise, no one...

2:02:05Griffin Newman:Do you think he cries for one hour

2:02:06David Sims:after he has sex? I think during, but he lasts the full hour. So you got to weigh that.

2:02:13Griffin Newman:Sorry for throwing that out late. Okay. Tom's a choker. There's just so much buried in that man. there's so much rage and feeling

2:02:22David Sims:I think he's a clean line

2:02:25Griffin Newman:what you see is what you get with Tom Riddin like imagine fucking watching a baseball game with that guy

2:02:30David Sims:you'd be like get me away from this person imagine his like fucking Manosphere podcast he just sits there let the other person talk that's his energy in the scene Tom likes to watch I think actually he's kind of got the cuck chair in his apartment

2:02:46Griffin Newman:he does have a cuck chair

2:02:47David Sims:Yeah.

2:02:48Griffin Newman:I'm glad we said cuck chair on this episode. Hey, it's part of the legacy of our show. As I've said about the hotel cuck chair, where else is the chair supposed to point? Hotel rooms just have a bed in them. Correct. You know, everyone makes fun. You know what I'm talking about? Ari, do you know what I'm talking about? The one plus chair in the hotel. You go to a hotel room, there's always a chair pointed at the bed. And it's like a perfect 45 degree angle. That's the cuck chair. That's the cuck chair. It's like, what do you think? What are you going to paint faces to the wall? Like, I mean, like, it's just it's not a big room some hotels have like a Sibian in the bathroom yeah absolutely that's important yeah the good ones we're gonna play the box office game Ari if you don't know we're gonna girlfriend is gonna try and guess the films that were the top five at the box office when Miller's Crossing came out which was October 5th 1990 so when does Goodfellas come out because Goodfellas is early in the year isn't it isn't Goodfellas like March or April it was September I should note also that this Miller's Crusting opened the New York Film Festival this year.

2:03:45Griffin Newman:Okay. And, you know, generally, I think, was treated with, you know, a lot of falter all. So was Goodfellas in the top five? No. Yes, it's number five. It's number five at the box office. Where does Miller's Crusting open? Dances with Wolves, maybe? That's very late. Dances with Wolves comes out December, right? Dances with Wolves is not on this list. Okay, so, okay. Number one at the box office, Griffin. It's new this week. It's an action film. stars an action star. A new action star. Die Hard. Not Die Hard. Is it Seagal? It is Steven Seagal. And here's the challenge. Name his third movie.

2:04:22David Sims:It came up in Box Office Game, the website the other day, and it completely foiled me. It's the one with Kelly LeBrock. I think it is the one with Kelly LeBrock. It is not.

2:04:31Griffin Newman:Fuck. It's not Above the Law. It is not Above the Law, which is his first film. Right. It's very good. And it's... It's not the one with Kelly LeBrock, which is his second film. Which is called... Hard to Kill. Right. Which is a great title. This movie is called,

2:04:45David Sims:tell me how many words it has in the title. Three.

2:04:46Griffin Newman:He was a three-word title guy. Is it blank to blank? No. It's blank for blank. Out for Justice? There we go. That's a great guess. Oh, it's not that? That is wrong. That's his fourth movie. Fuck. It's not Out for Justice. Out for Justice is the next year and that's the one with Jerry Orbach. Yeah. Good movie. Or maybe it's bad. I can't remember. Is it Cars for Kids? Uh-huh. It is directed by Dwight Little. who made you know the fourth Halloween movie and murdered 1600 a lot of glorious 90's trash H Little yeah you're missing a rose for Emily and I've never I've never seen this movie because I feel like I would remember the movie where Keith David is the second lead he's probably having fun it's called

2:05:31David Sims:Marked Marked for Dead Marked for Death

2:05:33Griffin Newman:is the name of the film there we go I almost got there number two the box office Griffin is a re-release of a Disney film an old classic it's an old yep give me the decade of it's original

2:05:44David Sims:40s 40s early early 40s early 40s so it's not okay so it's Snow White and I'm it's not Bambi no is it a princess movie uh nope no it's an animal movie nope it's a weird one fuck it's a weird one it's not it's not an animal it's not a princess it's a weird one it's not Fantasia It sure is Fantasia. Okay.

2:06:11Griffin Newman:Yep, Fantasia. Do you like Fantasia? I know he does have animals in it. I love Fantasia. Do you like Steven Seagal? I forgot to ask. Do I like Steven Seagal? Not his work. You like his personal life. I like him as a person. I think he's a good guy. His values, his physical appearance. Yeah. I mean, no. No, I don't. I don't. Let's just, let's face it. Fantasia I do love. Fantasia's great. Fantasia's great. Fantasia's amazing. number three is a psychological horror film starring one of your favorite actors is it Pacific Heights yes bing bing bing Michael Keaton is the scary guy movie I watched the first time last year like quite a bit it's John Schlesinger that's right it's got a

2:06:53David Sims:stacked supporting cast everyone in that is like a fucking five star actor Mako yes

2:06:58Griffin Newman:Laurie Metcalf yep Carl Lumbly Tippi Hedren's in this yeah everyone's in it you seen this movie what's this Pacific Heights yeah I've seen Pacific Heights it's fun Pacific Heights is great. Number five is Goodfellas. Number four is another of the big hits of the year 1990. Giant smash hit. Won two Oscars. It won two Oscars. Yep. Is it City Slickers? No. Come on now. Give me another.

2:07:21David Sims:Romance. It's a romance that won two Oscars. Major categories? Yep. It's a romance. It's not Pretty Woman. Nope. Weepy. A weepy romance. Sad romance. Is it Ghost? It's Ghost. It's Ghost. Oh, yeah. Jerry Zucker's Ghost. So Ghost must have been out for a while then. That was a July film. I've been out for four months. Because I know that that was... Crushing. That was the movie of that year. Absolutely. Yeah. All right, you've also got... Box office.

2:07:46Griffin Newman:Postcards of the Head, From the Edge, which has been out for about a month. Flatliners, Joel Schmacher's Flatliners. You've got Narrow Margin. Is that a JCVD? Peter Heim's film with Gene Hackman. Narrow Margin is actually pretty fun. What is that? It's a remake. Gene Hackman thriller. Okay. Gene Hackman and Ann Archer. What is, is he a lawyer? Is he a cop? He's an L.A. deputy district attorney trying to keep a murder witness safe.

2:08:13David Sims:I like the sound of that. And I'm sure he's very even-keeled. Yeah, right.

2:08:18Griffin Newman:You've got... Bad, but fun. Right. Ninth, you've got opening is a neo-noir called, oh, the Michael Cimino movie, Desperate Hours. Right, like late Cimino. Oh, yeah. With Anthony Hopkins and a normal Mickey Rourke. Huge bomb. Uh-huh. And then Funny About Love, the late Gene Wilder movie. Directed by Leonard Nimoy. Yeah, that's a weird...

2:08:40David Sims:Gene Hackman... Is the poster him with a clock on his head? Yes, that's right. Because the biological clock is ticking or something. Yes, I think he's an old dad is the premise of the movie. Sure, sure. You seen that? I haven't seen Funny About Love, no. I feel like that's one where the people who worked on it were like, yeah, he just seemed really sad. Like he didn't want to be in a comedy. I think he did it right after Gilda died, maybe. All right. We're done, Ari.

2:09:04Griffin Newman:When did Miller's Crossing open? You didn't say this. Like number 50. It's like, you know, in one screen or whatever. Okay. Yeah. It made like$4 million. It was unfortunately... Got zero Oscar nominations. Which is crazy. But it's forever young. It is. Forever young. But it is... They're a few years off from like their real Oscar breakthrough.

2:09:26David Sims:It is a forever movie, though. Yeah. And Barton Fink will get two. Yeah. But then Fargo is the breakthrough. Ari thank you for being here Ari you have to catch a plane you gotta go thanks for having me I gotta go Eddington one of the best movies of the year thank you Ben and I saw it and had a great time and by a great time I mean we were thrilled at the level of panic attack we were having I recommend to everybody I think it's please see Eddington yeah yes especially in a theater funny and exciting it is good to be locked in with that movie I mean that like as the highest compliment

2:09:56Griffin Newman:absolutely

2:09:57David Sims:yes and thank you for being here and thank you for doing this and I wish you a great long sleep as this press tour comes to a close. Thanks for having me. This was fun.

2:10:06Griffin Newman:Can you take it easy? You're gonna take it easy? You're good at that, right? Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. You're kind of a max chiller. I probably won't. Playing some video games. You love video games? Sorry. I don't play video games.

2:10:18David Sims:Donkey Kong Bonanza? I don't. Pauline is back? Does that move the needle for you?

2:10:23Griffin Newman:All right, all right, all right. Let's get Ari out of here. I might just go to that hotel with the Sibian.

2:10:30David Sims:And that's your plug as well, right? Yeah. In multiple ways. Thank you for being here. Thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate, review, and subscribe. Tune in next week for Barton Fink with our friend Chris Weitz returning to the show. That's right. And as always, better stop giving me the fucking hi-hat, David.

2:10:56Griffin Newman:Blank Check with Griffin and David is hosted by Griffin Newman and David Sims. Our executive producer is me, Ben Hosley. Our creative producer is Marie Barty Salinas. And our associate producer is AJ McKeon. This show is mixed and edited by AJ McKeon and Alan Smithy. Research by J.J. Birch. Our theme song is by Lane Montgomery in The Great American Novel, with additional music by Alex Mitchell. Artwork by Joe Bowen, Ollie Moss, and Pat Reynolds. Our production assistant is Minnick. Special thanks to David Cho, Jordan Fish, and Nate Patterson for their production help. Head over to blankcheckpod.com for links to all of the real nerdy shit.

2:11:35Griffin Newman:Join our Patreon, Blank Check Special Features, for exclusive franchise commentaries and bonus episodes. Follow us on social at Blank Check Pod. Subscribe to our weekly newsletter, Checkbook, on Substack. This podcast is created and produced by Blank Check Productions. The right window treatments change everything. Your sleep, your privacy, the way every room looks and feels. At Blinds.com, we've spent 30 years making it surprisingly simple to get exactly what your home needs. We've covered over 25 million windows and have 50 ,000 five-star reviews to prove we deliver. Whether you're DIY it or want a pro to handle everything from measure to install, we have you covered.

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