No Country for Old Men with Leslye Headland

5:40Griffin Newman:It is also very.

5:41Leslye Headland:He is trying to engage with him. Yeah. It's very funny that he keeps being like, you married into this? And he's like kind of blank, like not getting it?

5:50David Sims:He chokes on the sunflower seeds at the notion that he inherited a thing from his wife's dad. And Gene doesn't respond with any defensiveness. He doesn't do like a well, well, well. No, he's like, yeah, if you want to put it that way. Right. He goes, there is no way to put it. And even just down to, I think it's the final shot of the scene of Chigurh putting the sunflower seed back.

6:13Leslye Headland:I love that shot.

6:14David Sims:Crumples up and then it slowly uncrumples.

6:18Ben Hosley:Yeah, because it's the tension and then the release. Right. You know, of just like, we are so tense. And actually, oddly, the release of that is like why you remember it. I think so. Because you're hoping for that. Like, you're hoping that that's going to.

6:32David Sims:But also, much like the bag, you release it and then it's still just like a crumpled mess, right? You don't go like, oh my God, you never see Gene again. Nope. Bye, Gene. You're relieved that Gene didn't die, but you're also like nothing has been solved here. No, not at all. And it's in fact almost scarier where you're like this is so completely random and meaningless for him. Yeah. Right? Yeah. That he throws the coin toss into it and it doesn't feel like an element of like perverse fun. It's not like he's a fucking James Bond villain with a gimmick of the coin. He's not Two-Face, right? No, not Two-Face.

7:06Ben Hosley:No, no.

7:06David Sims:He's not getting any joy from the idea of staking it all on that. It just feels like this guy, he's pure evil.

7:16Leslye Headland:Or he's pure...

7:17David Sims:This is what we need to break down.

7:20Griffin Newman:So with Toothface... Toothface. Toothface is a new villain I'm pitching, which is a guy whose face is a Toothface. Keep going. With Toothface, not to get too deep into fucking comic book talk, right? But it's like, he's so traumatized by what happened to him. He cannot handle making any decision without flipping a goddamn coin. He needs fate to decide which side of his trauma response takes over. But I think Anton Chigurh is doing a little bit of that where he's like, it's not all me. No, this is fated or not fated. And like, I am merely an instrument of something I don't understand. And that's why it's so important that Kelly MacDonald says to him, you're saying it's the coin, but it is definitely not the coin.

8:05Griffin Newman:Yeah, it is you, my friend.

8:06Ben Hosley:It's interesting that you say instrument because so in the book, this is essentially word for word. It's essentially word for word. The scene, including putting down the wrapper.

8:15David Sims:It is funny that they won a screenplay Oscar for this because they have been so open about the fact.

8:20Ben Hosley:It's just a cut and paste. Right.

8:21David Sims:There's a line where they were like, they said one of us holds the book flat. And the other one. Right. And then they talk about how much they consolidated. As a big fan of this book, they did.

8:32Griffin Newman:They did. They did a great job adapting. It is not transcription.

8:36Ben Hosley:But you're right that the dialogue is the same. I wouldn't say cut and pest because there are many things. One of the things they didn't include and you don't need to because of the visuals is anything can be an instrument, Trigger said. Small things, things you wouldn't even notice, they pass from hand to hand. People don't pay attention. And then one day there's an accounting. And after that, nothing is the same. Well, you say, it's just a coin. For instance, nothing special there. What could that be an instrument of? You see the problem to separate the act from the thing as if the parts of some moment in history might be interchangeable with the parts of some other moment.

9:15Ben Hosley:How could that be? Well, it's just a coin. Yes, that's true. Is it?

9:19David Sims:So that's, I mean, beautiful writing. But also what a great underlining of the whole thing. the whole thing. And also that the value of this movie is, as you just said, they don't need that because they're able to convey that through repeated visual patterns.

9:35Ben Hosley:Yes, to the visuals. Yes. And the performance. Yes.

9:37David Sims:This movie came out in the very brief tenure in which I was attending film school before I dropped out and ruined my entire life. Or fixed it. Unclear. Doing great now. Jury's still out. You're doing very well. Jury's still out. What?

9:49Griffin Newman:Fucking film school. Nobody ever learns anything about it. Sure.

9:52David Sims:But this is the period of time where I'm just like, all I need to do, all day is watch movies and break them down because I'm trying to like figure out how to engineer these things. That's work. Right. Your work. Yeah. This movie comes out that fall. Yeah. Basically in the one semester and change that I'm in film school and I'm in Valencia, California. If there is an artsy movie, I want to see a more limited release. I need a friend with a car to drive me to the fucking landmark or the arc light or something.

10:20Ben Hosley:Yes. Yeah.

10:20David Sims:But no country is mainstream enough that it goes to the Valencia town center 16.

10:25Ben Hosley:Oh, wow.

10:26David Sims:And plays there for months. And I saw this movie so many fucking times.

10:30Ben Hosley:In the theater? Yes. Yeah, I saw it a lot too.

10:32David Sims:I'd just be like, this is the blueprint. This is the best constructed movie I have ever seen. I saw it so many times. I hadn't watched it in quite a while because I was so obsessed with it in its year. Yeah. Where I was just, and I was just like, well, this is just the pinnacle of everything. Yeah. And I watch it now and I'm like, I don't know where I'm going to rank it in their filmography. There's definitely a ton I put above this. I don't think it's their best movie, but it might be one of the best made films ever. It is just so perfectly made. Yeah, I saw it three times in the theater.

11:06Griffin Newman:It's a lot. Yeah. I saw it once or twice. And I've seen it several times since then. It's a movie I admire. It's a book I love. And it's an author I love. I do love Cormac McCarthy. Perhaps it's a little fucking, you know, boring of me. Why would it be boring? I don't know. Why do you say that, though? I feel like so many 20-something boys have a Cormac McCarthy face, right?

11:33Leslye Headland:Maybe not. Maybe I'm being too rude. You're kind of built like the description from Blood Meridian.

11:38Ben Hosley:I was going to say, I do think there's like Blood Meridian is like a gateway drug to something. Yeah.

11:44Griffin Newman:I don't know what, but. I love him. And I love how he clearly, how he behaved his whole life totally normal. I love that. No, but I do. Well adjusted. And he's one of those guys who, his books, I mean, the Border Trilogy, this, all the pretty horses and the crossing, and those books are my favorite. And they will just, once every two or three pages, just have a moment, have some line where you're just like, that's the best thing I ever read. Yes. Like that's the most incredible, beautiful evocation of like light going through a fucking window that I've ever seen. And you put the book down and you just soak it in.

12:19Griffin Newman:And that's why I do feel like he's hard to put on film. And they did such an incredible job putting him on film. Yeah.

12:25Leslye Headland:And so that's what I love about this movie the most. This movie watching it. And we haven't even introduced this podcast yet.

12:30David Sims:No, and I'm going to do it in a second. But this movie watching it, I feel the way you just described reading Cormac McCarthy books where like every three minutes there's something that happens where I'm like, that's just, that's the greatest visual storytelling I've ever seen. Yes. That's the greatest evocation of a feeling, a moment, a communication of an idea. I agree. Whether it's thematic or plot. This podcast is called Blank Check with Griffin and David. I'm Griffin. I'm David. We're the two friendos, and it's a podcast about filmographies, directors who have massive success early on in their careers and are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want.

13:05David Sims:And sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they bounce friendo. I'm just going to keep saying friendo. this is a miniseries on the films of Joel and Ethan Coen. Today we are talking about the titular film in our series. Pod Country for Old Casts. Oh, the titular, yes.

13:24Leslye Headland:It is.

13:25David Sims:No Country for Old Men is the film. The pinnacle of their career within the industry. Certainly like within the arc of their career. Agreed. It's interesting.

13:33Griffin Newman:It is both a pinnacle and a comeback.

13:36Ben Hosley:Yes, it is a comeback. That's right. Because Lady Killers is right before that. And in Talbert Quilty is right before that.

13:41Griffin Newman:It's sort of them. It's them as, look, when U2 released All That You Can't Leave Behind. We talk about this all the time. How you doing? You interested in talking about this right now? Sorry, anytime I bring up U2. Ben is holding a cattle gun to his head? They had made Zoropa and they had made Pop and they were kind of, you know, they were a little down and they were like, we're auditioning, we're re-auditioning for the role of like Best Rock Band. Sure, sure. And this is the Coens being like, we're re-auditioning for like the Best Directors. working.

14:11David Sims:The other thing I was thinking about...

14:13Griffin Newman:How did it work out for you two? I don't know. Millions of records sold. Biggest tours ever. Won fucking Grammys and shit.

14:19David Sims:But they never got Ben's respect.

14:21Griffin Newman:The ultimate price.

14:25David Sims:I was thinking, within the same year, this is very similar to the moment of Spielberg going from 1941 to Raiders of the Lost Ark. That's interesting. Yeah, that's interesting. And that episode, I said, was like kind of one of the greatest comeback moments movies in Hollywood history. Not moments because his his cold streak was not sustained.

14:47Ben Hosley:No, no, no, no.

14:47David Sims:But it was a real like we're ready to knock this guy down to size.

14:50Ben Hosley:Yes.

14:51David Sims:And he just kind of like pulled himself up and was like, I got to make something just like kind of so lean and focused and undeniable. Right. And this feels similar to that where I'm like, I don't think Raiders is Spielberg's best movie, but it might be his best made film. Yeah. Like he's just like, I just got to make myself undeniable here. Sure. Yeah.

15:09Griffin Newman:I mean, of course, the Coens are just sort of like, no, we like the book. I mean, I'll look at what they said in interviews. They never talk about that strategy. Yeah, they're not like, we need to fucking punch Hollywood in the face and knock everyone's teeth out.

15:19David Sims:They talk about a deeply normal man, Scott Rudin, begging them to do it. And I'm being like, I don't know. Who's going to dab Cormac McCarthy? Right. But this also comes in a three-year gap after Lady Killers. There was this feeling of like, are they just cooked?

15:32Ben Hosley:Yeah.

15:32David Sims:Where did they go? And we were saying right before we recorded the great Leslie Hedlund. Returning to the show.

15:38Griffin Newman:Hey, Leslie. podcast.

15:39Ben Hosley:Hey guys, good to be back. Leslie Nation, Rise Up. Cult of Love. Cult of Love recently on Broadway. Broadway girl. Soon to be a film. In front of cameras. A movie picture. Soon to be in front of cameras.

15:54David Sims:Adaptation.

15:55Ben Hosley:We'll see what happens. It's certainly not going to be this.

15:58David Sims:But we were saying like in you said, how has the series been going? And I said, great. Every one of these movies is a delight to rewatch. Every night when I'm like, oh fuck.

16:08Ben Hosley:That was what I was wondering.

16:09David Sims:I gotta watch a Coen movie tonight. I'm just always thrilled.

16:11Ben Hosley:Yeah, you're thrilled.

16:12David Sims:Always thrilled.

16:12Ben Hosley:Yeah. For different reasons. Yeah. Because it might be just a disaster. And then it might be, yeah, one of the greatest film adaptations ever. Yes.

16:24David Sims:But also, as we've been tracking the critical response of these movies, it was like there was such a skepticism about them that it's sort of squashed by Fargo. And then right after Fargo, everyone's like, fuck, no, we were right. Yeah. There's a feeling of getting twice as angry as them. And then from this movie on, everyone was like, I guess they're undeniable. It did feel like they so completely won the argument.

16:48Ben Hosley:I think it was so interesting, too, that like one-two punch of Fargo. We, you know, exactly what you said. Lebowski, which at the time, everybody. People were furious. Ingracious. And it's just so funny that that's the film that is culturally.

17:06David Sims:Absolutely.

17:06Ben Hosley:I mean, of course, Fargo is. But Lebowski has completely surpassed it in that sense.

17:12David Sims:It will be the movie in their obituary. Yeah. Unquestionably. Right. They will never make something that has a bigger cultural impact. That's what it is. Yeah.

17:20Ben Hosley:Is it is it their best movie? No, like not at all. But yeah. But there's no. Although, you know what? I asked my assistant. I have an assistant. I asked her like I quoted the movie and she was like, you know, know she's my assistant so she's like uh-huh um and uh and I said well you know have you have you seen the big Lebowski and she was like I mean I've heard of it yeah it's not necessarily a next generation watch but this is my point your assistant she's um late 20s okay yeah because

17:58David Sims:my sister's 27 and I'm also wondering now that she may be never seen Lebowski but she knows it

18:05Ben Hosley:Like she understands that it's something in the world. Yeah, right.

18:09David Sims:It is just kind of universal shorthand. There is sometimes a question our listeners love to throw out.

18:16Griffin Newman:There's sometimes a buggy. There's sometimes a buggy? I'm invoking Mulholland Drive, which was the last time.

18:21David Sims:Well, this is what I was going to say, David. What guest has had the best run of movies? Mine. You are a relatively recent addition to our regular guest canon. but you have exclusively covered three of the most important American films the last 25 years

18:37Griffin Newman:and not only that but three films that are sort of like seen by many as the best Zodiac Law and Drive of totemic filmmakers

18:45Ben Hosley:I can't believe it happened this way

18:47Griffin Newman:you're out of control is what I'm trying to say next time you're getting a piece of shit exactly

18:52Ben Hosley:yeah please get me the get a bowl of diarrhea I was thinking like first of all I was thinking that and like how honored and excited and like blessed I feel thank you all so much for boosting up my ego. But I also thought how similar those three movies are in terms of, especially in terms of structure. Like, you're just, again, you're like, wait, which scene is coming next? Like, there's this world that you live in rather than

19:22Griffin Newman:Absolute straight line. Absolute straight line. Like, I was buying a book at a bookstore.

19:26Ben Hosley:I was getting a Coen Brothers book and the lady was like, oh, this is, you know, And I said, oh, I'm doing this podcast about No Country for Old Men. And I previously did Zodiac and Mulholland Drive. And she said, oh, those are really interesting movies about time.

19:46Griffin Newman:This is true. Zodiac, very much so. Obviously, Mulholland Drive. Yeah, no, absolutely.

19:50David Sims:Also, not to be reductive, but I think all three movies at their core are about touching the membrane of, like, absolute darkness. Right?

20:01Ben Hosley:Yes. That's true. And this feeling of like,

20:03David Sims:can you make it through the other side once you know that exists?

20:07Ben Hosley:That's the other side of the coin in inviting me. Right. You know, is that I get to do the best movies, but also the flip side of the coin is you're here for the darkest shit.

20:15David Sims:But I also think that you and I are similar. It's interesting. Look, your friend Zach Kregger, who we had on the Fargo episode.

20:21Ben Hosley:Yeah.

20:22David Sims:The two of you got engaged in your own con toss.

20:24Ben Hosley:We did.

20:25David Sims:Trying to pick between those two episodes. And you were going back and forth. And we said, look, we're going to win either way. However this lands, We're happy to have either of you on either one. Yeah. Figure it out amongst yourselves.

20:34Ben Hosley:And we hooked up and, you know, connected. And he said, you know, I'd really love to do Fargo. Because I kind of went like, oh, Fargo's available. Let's do it. And then he, you know, he said, hey, you know, I really want to do Fargo. I have this personal connection to it. I love the film. And clearly he's a filmmaker. And I said, yeah, man, I just thought you'd want to do No Country. Yeah. I just wanted to give you that because it's there. You know, it's everything that you're saying. It may not be the best film. I think we can talk about why it's a superlative, very influential in their being taken seriously, best picture, et cetera.

21:10Ben Hosley:And he really was like, oh, do you think that? You know, not in a derogatory way, but he certainly was like, oh, I would consider Fargo. Like, that's the one that I would lean toward.

21:20Griffin Newman:It worked out because that episode comes out close to the release of his film and that's fun.

21:26David Sims:Oh, that's good. Everything worked out. But when you were texting with us about it, you were like, I mean, does it make more sense for me to do Fargo, like female protagonist? Yes, exactly. And it has this sort of like black humor. Yeah. Right. Versus like, is Zack seen as a little more highbrow and thrillery and sparse? And you were sort of like talking over the sides of it. Yeah. What I was going to say, I think you and I are similar in this respect, is like this feeling of constantly thinking about the absolute worst things in the world and like needing We need to combat that with some sense of humor.

22:01Ben Hosley:Yeah. I think that's right.

22:02David Sims:Avoidance.

22:03Ben Hosley:Yeah.

22:03David Sims:That is like trying to push through it, which is a thing I think the Coens do really well.

22:08Ben Hosley:Yeah.

22:08David Sims:I think all three of the movies you've covered are funny in bizarre ways. In certain ways. Yeah. I think this movie is very funny in bizarre ways. Yeah. I think like Fargo is more explicitly funny and has this sense of like we are going to place goodness at the center of this. We're going to remind you that it exists in a very pure way.

22:27Ben Hosley:Yeah. I agree. And I think that when I was thinking of the three of them, and then I am curious, you're guys feeling like the Fargo versus this movie, but like very quickly, I was thinking about the three of those movies and how like in a personal way, yeah, there was just this like delving into darkness and the, the, you know, at the times that those films came out, like, yes, I said on Zodiac that like, you know, I watched it every day for a while because I was so depressed. And then it's comforting. It's very comforting. And, and Mulholland drive, like I said, you know, lesbian working in Hollywood with suicide ideation.

23:03Ben Hosley:That's me. I totally relate with that. What's interesting is that I couldn't really figure out why this movie hit me so hard. So I'm excited to talk about it. Yeah. I don't know why it hit me so hard at the time and why it hit me so hard rewatching it.

23:17David Sims:I think that was part of it for me in this non-conspiratorial way, because I like that the movie doesn't create some insane interconnected web of stuff, right? Like, to a certain degree, the events of this movie are kind of meaningless. Yes. In a way, they love.

23:32Griffin Newman:Yes, the events of this movie revolve around things that are really not our business. Right. Yes. And like, Llewellyn, the only sort of quote-unquote kind of, you know, normal guy in it. Yeah. He just shouldn't have gotten involved in this business. Now, Ben's about to say, if he stumbled across a bag of money, he would have escaped Scott Free with no issues whatsoever. He'd own a castle.

23:54Leslye Headland:I'd be sipping on a Mai Tai somewhere. For sure.

23:58David Sims:But it's been interesting in the episodes we've done leading up to this. And when No Country Gets Invoked, several different guests have gone. It just always drives me crazy that he goes back and gives the water. That makes zero sense. Absolutely. Yeah.

24:11Ben Hosley:When I was re-watching it, my wife was like so stupid.

24:15David Sims:Bring it up as such an urgent, like I still haven't gotten over this. As if it's like the kind of slam against a horror movie of why would he go in there that's so dumb. right? Yes. Yeah. But I think it's like the core of the movie is why it is so effective and maddening is you're like the guy is basically doing the save the cat thing and it ruins his entire life. Yeah. Right.

24:36Ben Hosley:It's also like the the the what he what sugar says to Woody Harrelson. Yeah. If the rule that brought you here, it's like if the rule that brought you here, what what use was the rule? Yes. Right. So the rule of you bring water to a dying man. Yes. You know what I mean? What was the use of that after everything that comes after it?

24:57David Sims:As you said, David, he never should have been there. He shouldn't have gotten into this, right?

25:00Ben Hosley:Yeah.

25:00David Sims:But, of course, he would have been in a better place if he actually just took the money and ran. And the fact that he goes back and does the moral thing to, in his mind, kind of balance it fucks him to a far deeper degree. In a very intense way.

25:14Griffin Newman:Well, sort of, but also he should have just looked in the bag. There's a fucking tracker in the bag. Yes. Okay, can I just shut it out, bro? Clever about the carve-out. He's clever, too, though. He's, you know, he's supposedly, he has clever moments.

25:27Leslye Headland:Because I don't want to make it seem like I wouldn't. Like, I have humanity. I would feel for this person. Or a deeply moral man. Yeah, I would have empathy. So what I would have done is grabbed a cactus. Because, you know, they're full of water. And I was going to say, they're also famously easy to grab. Yeah, grabbable. Well, yeah, you know, I would get, like, I would avoid the spikes. I would make it happen.

25:50David Sims:Also famously easy to do.

25:52Ben Hosley:Yeah, I was going to say, like, what is happening?

25:55Leslye Headland:And then once I've now got the bag back home, here's the thing I would definitely do. You go through every bed. I would dump it out on the bed because I want to roll around in that frigging money.

26:04Griffin Newman:Oh, you're not even dumping it out to sort of take a closer look. You're like, I need to Scrooge McDuck it right away.

26:09Leslye Headland:And in doing that, you would end up discovering the tracker. Exactly.

26:13David Sims:Not because you're that smart, but because your instincts are that kind of in tune. I want to throw it up in the air.

26:19Leslye Headland:I want to make it rain. Yeah.

26:20David Sims:And would maybe make it work. Yeah. Yeah. I think similarly, like, spoilers for No Country for Old Men. Yeah. But, like, the most fascinating thing this movie does, and the thing the Coen brothers said was the thing that made them ultimately decide, fuck, we should adapt this. Yeah. Is the feeling of this kind of wrong-footed thriller where the lead characters never meet each other. Yes. Yes. Yeah. And it all ultimately feels a little meaningless.

26:47Griffin Newman:It's a movie that seems to promise a showdown and the showdown never really arrives.

26:53David Sims:It feels like it's all building towards these three characters ending up in a good, the bad, the ugly style standoff. Yes, yeah. And instead, and I, you know, as someone who just kept seeing this in the suburbs of Valencia and would just feel the audience go like, what do you mean he's dead? The moment you cut to Josh Brolin on the floor and there's this feeling of like there must be a misunderstanding. He's he's pulling a Hannibal Lecter. Someone else is wearing his face, whatever it is. There's no way the movie has just and it's got 30 minutes left to go.

27:21Ben Hosley:It's such a weird shot as well. It's really in a place where you can't quite see his face. The angle is the angle is wild.

27:29David Sims:You're like under his jaw. And then it's not really until Tommy Lee Jones takes off his hat and Kelly McDonald cries that you're like, I guess. I guess that was him.

27:37Ben Hosley:I guess it's real.

27:38David Sims:Yeah. But the moment before, it's sort of—

27:42Ben Hosley:I think what I'm saying is, like, there's no veneration of him. No, of course. Yeah, there's—yeah, that's what I'm saying.

27:45David Sims:He has to get a hero's death, and you get this slow fade out, and then the next thing you see is the police arriving, right? Yeah. And the dissolve comes after a woman sitting by the side of the pool, promising him beer, hitting on him.

28:00Ben Hosley:Yeah.

28:00David Sims:And he keeps going like, my wife is coming. Yeah. I'm a married man. I don't want to. Yeah. And you're like, you keep wondering, is this a morality test that he's going to slip? Yeah. And in the universe of this movie, that is what causes his death. That's a good point. Right. Not that she's a temptress, a siren of evil or whatever, but it's a sense of, did this guy? Right.

28:21Ben Hosley:But is it like the water where he's punished for the good thing? Perhaps he turns her down. Do you know what I mean? Absolutely. And punished for that.

28:31Griffin Newman:In the book, obviously, that character is more major.

28:34Ben Hosley:She is. She's like a runaway. Yes.

28:36Griffin Newman:They have a whole long section that all gets cut. Yeah. But no, his, his, no, it's his grandma. His, sorry, his mother-in-law is the one who gets him killed too. She gives him away. Yeah. She gives him away. He shouldn't have called his wife. Yes. Yes. He, look, his biggest mistake is he stays in a fucking motel. Stay in a hotel with a desk, a concierge. that like assassins can't just knock on your fucking door. Like you just want like one layer of people to get food. That's a very good call. Instead he's like, what's your cheapest motel? I'm like, you have a bag of money. Yeah, exactly. You can spring for a presidential suite.

29:16Griffin Newman:I get the idea of like, I don't want anyone seeing me. I don't want CCTV.

29:21David Sims:His love with the AC event is clever. That's the thing where I'm like, you're kind of smart.

29:26Ben Hosley:Yes. You know, but what's so... And when he's looking at the, sorry, when he's looking at the, you know, the guy underneath the tree, you know, the way that he waits, the way that the time is expressed to us via the wristwatch. Like, you get a sense of like, oh, this guy was in Nam. Like, you get it. Like, you get that this is somebody that does have some sort of street smarts. Right. But then exactly what you're saying, David, it's like, then he makes choices that you're like, I'm so sorry. What? Because he's not that. He doesn't belong in this movie. He's not that good at this stuff.

29:57David Sims:Exactly. And he's dealing with an entirely different league of person. But to your point, it's like, I think, especially by cutting out all that backstory of that character, right? Yes, it's better. You're reducing it to a moment of a choice. And that choice doesn't gain him anything in the same way that doing the kind thing to the dying man doesn't gain him anything.

30:17Griffin Newman:I want to open the dossier. Please do. In a second. But I do want to know what all you guys are saying. that's why I was on the one hand mildly surprised that in the year of 2007 a big year for movies Zodiac among them this won Best Picture over There Will Be Blood which is kind of like a magnum opus from PTA obviously Michael Clayton what were the other big 2007 movies

30:41David Sims:Juno and Atonement were the five nominees Atonement got Best Picture but then Julian Schnabel got the Joe Wright slot in Director David is miming praise, applause, taking a bow. Oh, no. He's jerking off a giant dick. Yeah. What's the giant dick about?

30:59Griffin Newman:I don't like Julian Schnabel.

31:01David Sims:I don't like Julian Schnabel. I like that movie a tremendous amount. That is an ultimate onion, heartbreaking, the worst guy you know just made a good point movie for me. And I'm like, he did kind of do this well. Although I give more credit to Yannish. This movie is obviously

31:19Griffin Newman:incredibly compelling and well-made, but it is not satisfying as you're saying in the sort of, you know, maybe traditional Hollywoody Western way you might expect.

31:28Ben Hosley:Yeah.

31:28Griffin Newman:And so it is sort of surprising to want best picture. You watch there will be blood, which has Daniel day Lewis screaming. I abandoned my boy. It's not like there will be blood is like an easy movie, but you watch it and you are like, this is the kind of thing you would think like would kind of triumph. It's so epic. It's so the acting is so big, like in all this. And I just remember when this movie came out, and I feel this way to this day, I have never seen a film be as well-received as this film. Yes. And since then, lots of movies have come out to praise. I remember when the reviews came out for this, I was like, I think this is essentially getting a 100 from everybody.

32:06Griffin Newman:Wait, I'm sorry. No Country for Old Men.

32:08Ben Hosley:You're saying that forever? Like in all perpetuity? Since then. I've never seen a film as well-received as this.

32:13Griffin Newman:No one questioned it. And I don't think people really remember how well this movie went over.

32:17David Sims:And I think there was a bit of this and There Will Be Blood were very much pitted against each other.

32:23Leslye Headland:There Will Be Blood's an amazing movie, but there were some people that were, it was a little more divisive. That would be me. But Leslie weighed in. She said, what a piece of shit.

32:32David Sims:There Will Be Poop was your review.

32:35Ben Hosley:Sound off in the comments. Yeah.

32:36David Sims:No, I was a little colder on that movie at the time, and I have grown to like it more. but I do agree with you that these two films were pit against each other. There was weird synchronicity between them. They were both set in the same place.

32:52Ben Hosley:They were shot in the same place. They were shot in the same place. They were shot in the same place. Simultaneously, yes. No, but in the same place they were shot. And they were shot at the same time.

33:00David Sims:Like they talk about that the crews were having to avoid each other. Like to like negotiate who got what location when. That's wild. And they were both like American auteurs who had kind of disappeared. And it was like, what are these guys doing? And it was seen as this sort of like, here's the next chapter. Yeah. Right? Yeah. But you're right that this movie is bizarre in how sort of bracing and unsparing and like deliberately unsatisfying it is. And yet it ended up being the sort of like more populist pick, I think, relative to There Will Be Blood, which was seen as almost more nihilistic yeah I don't know

33:44Griffin Newman:they're only but somewhat punishing yes and but and just when you just think about it it's like right how does this movie end Llewellyn Moss gets shot by unrelated Mexican gangsters right off screen then Tommy Lee Jones

33:54David Sims:spends 20 minutes Tommy Lee Jones

33:55Griffin Newman:is like I'm having this dream and generally I'm kind of bummed out by the world yeah the end but there's 20 minutes in between the death and the car and he's like Jesus that hurt and you're like and that's it and you're like

34:09David Sims:does the car kill him no he limps away No, he's in pain. Yeah. And you're like, okay. What were you going to say, Leslie? I like all those endings, to be clear. I think they're great. Oh, same, same. David's eating a hot dog in a croissant? A colache. Okay. I was curious, when you finished eating, David,

34:27Ben Hosley:why do you think this was sort of universally acclaimed, especially because you're claiming that it's, you know, 100 % and then since 2007?

34:38Griffin Newman:There's been nothing like it. I mean, I think partly there was this vibe of like, the Coens are back. Thank God. Yeah. Thank God. You know, it's basically been since Fargo. Yeah. Every single thing they've made since Fargo, people had been hot and cold on. Like, even your Lebowski's or your O Brothers, you know, those movies had more fans. But at the time, both got the reaction of like, this kind of goofy thing is what they want to do. Yeah. They'd been in such a goofy mode. and then they're just like we just made the most like psychotic cold blooded like crime thriller you ever saw that's also shot through with like Tommy Lee Jones furrowed brow about what has happened to this world that we live in and people were just like I've never been so electrified that's how I felt

35:23David Sims:it's like a Swiss watch construction film that is still somehow explicitly built around themes and ideas you know and this is right

35:33Ben Hosley:before Obama this is right before so we're all kind of worn out we're kind of worn out what were the four best pictures leading up to that?

35:44David Sims:that's a great question so 2006 was Departed yikes, right 2005 was Crash Crash, Jesus Christ, yeah 2004 was Million Dollar Baby

35:58Griffin Newman:which is a great movie and 2003 was Return of the King

36:02David Sims:right, okay And then what? Then Chicago. Yeah. So it feels like very gladiator.

36:08Ben Hosley:Sorry, but it's all very like kind of genre E. You know, like it's not the crash win is just so sort of bizarre. Everyone's I mean, from I think the people who want I think Paul Haggis was like, sorry, what? Like, I mean, you know, Brokeback was really, you know, seen as the front runner until gay people happen.

36:27David Sims:It is absolutely a a defensive best picture win.

36:31Ben Hosley:Yeah, it's a yeah. And then Departed is kind of like this afterthought win for Scorsese. And was made 17 ,000 better movies than that. Right, right, exactly.

36:40David Sims:And that was even the line at the time of like, is it a little silly that we're going to give it to him for this? Yes. And yet they were like, it's kind of a weak year. This movie was a big hit. Why not this year? Right, right, right. Versus this film being seen as like, is this the Coen brothers' towering achievement? Is that their magnum opus? And I think it was, I think David's right. The fact that there was this feeling of comeback. the fact that the movie is sort of just like so clean and undeniable in its craft.

37:09Ben Hosley:It's also a throat slit of a movie. It is. Like it is not... It's not an easy part. It is like, I mean, we're like, hey, Departed, and you know, of course, very violent. Yes. You know, but also very mainstream.

37:21Griffin Newman:Departed is also incredibly funny and like wacky. Right, and Wahlberg handles it at the end.

37:26Ben Hosley:You know what I mean? Like he handles it. So it's not like as nihilistic as... The quote ending of that movie is we still get the guy at the end shoots the other guy.

37:36David Sims:I find this movie very comforting, but it is the kind of movie where I usually am on that island and other people are like, what the fuck are you talking about? Why do you want to live in that headspace? Yes. Yeah. And like Mulholland Drive was wildly acclaimed, but was also like for a certain type of person. Yes. There were like big flashing warning signs above that movie of like, hey, if you don't love David Lynch, you're probably not going to like this.

38:01Ben Hosley:Yeah, yeah, yeah. right?

38:01David Sims:And Zodiac was like not totally recognized in this scene here.

38:05Ben Hosley:Yeah, if you don't like David Fincher, you're not gonna like this.

38:07David Sims:And this is him going like very procedural and it's really dark, right? But in a way without the stylization and the pulp of something like Seven. And this movie, everyone was just like yeah, kind of undeniable. And I also think it's interesting that 2007 was such a humongous fucking movie year and one that we keep pointing back to is like, was that the last time we were just kind of firing on all cylinders?

38:28Ben Hosley:Wait, can I say something about there will be blood that I just thought of when you were saying that? I wonder if the there will be blood thing is that it's so arm's length.

38:36David Sims:I think so.

38:37Ben Hosley:You know, I mean, it's incredible performances, but in a weird way you're sort of just watching them.

38:43David Sims:A character study about a man you cannot understand.

38:46Ben Hosley:Exactly. Like, no one is watching.

38:47David Sims:I understand him who wants oil. Well, if you say he's an oil man, I would agree.

38:50Ben Hosley:I would be interested to challenge anyone to say, did you empathize or maybe not even empathize, but did you recognize or empathize the journey of that character? And I think 70 to 80 to 90 % of the people would be like, no, he was just an asshole. And it was an interesting character study because of that. He's a flawed guy. I'll allow that. But I don't think that you're, I don't think you leave that movie being like Citizen Kane, right? You don't leave that movie going, oh, that guy, you know, at least I didn't.

39:26David Sims:I remember that movie first screening and some people going, that might be the best movie ever made. Like, there were those people. And then there were also people who were just like, I don't fucking get it. And there were people you were never going to get to sit down and watch it, right? And there's something about this, even though it is purposefully withholding the kind of denouement you want out of a movie like this. Yeah. I just think there was something about being like, a guy finds a bag of money that he shouldn't have and someone's chasing him. That's exactly right. And the film is so, like, to the bone as much as it is throat slit.

40:02David Sims:There's, like, a framework of it that is so recognizable. Yeah. That helps people recognize what it's doing well. What's it called?

40:10Griffin Newman:Kolachi.

40:11David Sims:A kolachi?

40:12Griffin Newman:Yes, it's a Czech thing, I think, but it's very popular in Texas in the South. Shout out my kolachi eaters on this podcast. I'm sure there's a few. It's basically just, like, a savory sort of pastry thing. With a hot dog in it? Sometimes it has a hot dog. Yours did, didn't I?

40:28Ben Hosley:It sure did. Were you just eating it? Yeah.

40:31Griffin Newman:But sometimes, you know, you could put like eggs in there or jalapenos or... But they do sweet ones as well. They have sweet ones as well. Very nice. Brooklyn Colatchy Company, DeKalb and Bedford. Anyone wants to go there? I go there all the time.

40:43David Sims:Yeah. I just think there's something to the sturdiness of the genre setup of this movie.

40:51Ben Hosley:I agree. And I think that, like, in the 2007 of it all, we're kind of all over it.

40:58Griffin Newman:I mean, my favorite, my second favorite president, sorry, Donald's with us now, of course. But at the time, my favorite president, he was just winding down.

41:05David Sims:I'm sorry. Your first favorite president is Donald 45. Your second favorite is Donald 47.

41:11Griffin Newman:Okay. You're right. Okay. But my favorite president at the time was winding down a second perfect term with no issues whatsoever. Mission accomplished. Every mission had been accomplished. No, you're right. There's a lot of malaise. It's crazy how quickly we solved that one. It's an interesting era because it's like, it's a year before the recession where all the chickens have come home to roost. Yes. Right, right, right. You know, so it's like the country is ostensibly like in like okay shape, I guess. But like everyone's just already like, nah, man, like the milk is spoiled. Like we suck. This has been years of us sucking.

41:46Ben Hosley:It's the guy in the wheelchair at the end. Like it's like, can't stop what's coming. Right. You know, it's like in a way it's foreshadowing what we all already know.

41:54Griffin Newman:Yeah, we're like, Jesus, we've just been like hearing about the fucking Iraq war and Katrina and like all this shit.

42:00David Sims:This wins. It is anointed. But yet you step back and look at 2007, which is studied as a year of just like we got everything. Right. Yes. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. The slate of the great movies of 2007 do not all reflect that feeling. It is not a year you look at where you're like there's something in the air. And it's being expressed in all these movies in different ways. It's such a good year for movies. Yes, but I'm like Zodiac and There Will Be Blood and No Country are on a spectrum. But then you're like Atonement and Juno are in Best Picture. Michael Clayton is a little closer to that earlier batch.

42:35Ben Hosley:Michael Clayton feels like the departed of that year.

42:38David Sims:Yes. You know. But also is very much like that we've got to keep running on the corporations. They might not have our best interests. They have our best interests. I can't believe you would say that. I'm just raising the question.

42:50Griffin Newman:Ratatouille. Yeah, Ratatouille's about the corporations. You gotta watch out for those guys. Yeah. No, I don't know.

43:01David!

43:02David Sims:What? This episode, don't act so surprised because it's a familiar friend. Oh, okay. This episode's brought to you by MUBI. Yawn!

43:09Leslye Headland:Just kidding! Comfortable! Secure! We love them!

43:13Griffin Newman:They are a global film company, a champion's great cinema, iconic directors, emerging auteurs, Always something new to discover with MUBI. Each and every film hand-selected. So you can explore the best of cinema.

43:23Leslye Headland:Nothing more to say, I guess. Wrong! There's a new film coming to theaters. Yep, movie theaters. February 13th, the first Nigerian film ever in official competition again.

43:37Griffin Newman:That's pretty wild. This is a film by Akinola Davis called My Father's Shadow. It was BAFTA-nominated, poetic, tender portrait of a father-son bond framed within the political landscape of 1993 Lagos in Nigeria. It is about a father and two young sons as they journey into and around the vibrantly rendered Nigerian metropolis, reckoning with their relationship, navigating the city that's in the middle of a democratic crisis, written by real-life brothers,

44:07Leslye Headland:Akinola Davis Jr. and Wally Davis. Love it, brothers. Co-wrote this groundbreaking feature debut, and you've got Sofei Dorisu.

44:15Griffin Newman:Oh, from Slow Horses. I love him. I hope I'm saying his name right. But he's a really good actor and he's the star. It's worth seeing. It's in theaters. It's great to go to a theater.

44:26David Sims:It's in theaters. We love that Mubi puts Mubis in theaters before ultimately ending up on their wonderful platform. Dang right. I'm just looking at some of the stuff they got right now. Die My Love, of course. Yeah. An important watch, a necessary watch for any blankie. La Grazia, the new Paolo Sorrentino movie, which I missed in theaters. Good moment to catch up with it. The great Shall We Dance. Oh, the classic? The original. Oh my goodness. That's fun. Like a restoration? Yeah, and look what they got a collection called Heartthrob Nicolas Cage. It's young, dreamy Cage. Well, still dreaming to me.

45:05Hey, you're very open-hearted.

45:08Griffin Newman:Anyway, to stream the best of cinema, you can try Mubi free for 30 days at Mubi.com slash blank check. That's M-U-B-I dot com slash blank check for a whole month of great cinema for free. And then go see My Father's Shadow in theaters. Please, thank you for listening. Thank you. Thank you for your attention to this matter.

45:24David Sims:Thank you. Very kind.

45:33David.

45:34David Sims:Yep. You and I have a lot of shared interests. Sure. Common interest. Film. The movies, comedy, podcasts, life, New York City, bagels, sandwiches. These are all true. Sleep. Oh, I love sleep so much. Sleep rules so much. It is kind of wild how sleep is constantly underrated. I don't think people give it enough credit. And it gets credit. And nonetheless. Even when it's bad, it's good.

46:05Griffin Newman:Well, I don't know. I don't think anything could really change how I sleep, though. Wrong. What? Wrong.

46:11Leslye Headland:What product could change my nights? Lisa. Lisa can change your nights. You switch to a Lisa mattress. Griffin. What? I mean, it's just so true. It's true. I am living proof right now. You are. Because Lisa sponsored the show. And when they sponsored the show, they said, would you like a mattress? Sent over a big, hunking mattress.

46:31Griffin Newman:And I was like, it's time. It's time.

46:32Leslye Headland:I'm switching to a king mattress.

46:34Griffin Newman:You're a king. I'm getting a bigger bed. My kids sometimes will pile into it. I need as much square footage as possible on this sucker.

46:45David Sims:Yeah, you need hop-on pop space.

46:46Griffin Newman:I do. And so I got a mattress from Lisa that is my favorite place to be. It is my favorite.

46:55Leslye Headland:I say this so genuinely. David Biggs, Sam. It is so nice. It is. It really... I'm laughing, but I'm emotional. It soothes the soul.

47:04David Sims:It's everything. It's everything for me.

47:06Leslye Headland:good to be there.

47:08David Sims:Lisa owns my days and my nights.

47:10Griffin Newman:Now listen, I mean, Lisa, they've got this lineup of beautifully crafted mattresses. They're all tailored for different sleep positions, different feel preferences, but they've all got premium materials. They've all got full body support no matter how you sleep. They're all designed and assembled in the USA. They've all got a free shipping, easy return, 120 night sleep trial that you can go by. awarded the best hybrid mattress by Wirecutter at the New York Times, exclusively featured by West Elm. They're their go-to mattress provider over there. It's good stuff. Yeah. And they donate thousands of mattresses each year to those in need.

47:47Griffin Newman:That's huge. Partner with organizations like Clean Hub

47:50David Sims:to remove harmful plastic waste from the ocean. It's nice to hear that they care. And it's nice to hear all those endorsements. But really, I think there is no stronger endorsement than David Sims, the sleepy king. The most tired man in America saying that Lisa hits just right. I love it.

48:11Griffin Newman:And I use it. And this is a true endorsement. Oh, boy. They're all endorsements. But this is about as endorsement-y as an endorsement gets. I don't know what to tell you. Go to Lisa.com for the President's Day extended sale. 25 % off mattresses. Plus, get an extra$50 off with promo code blank check. Exclusive for our listeners. that's l-e-e-s-a dot com promo code blank check for 25 % off mattresses plus an extra$50 off support our show and let them know we sent you after checkout

48:42Leslye Headland:that's lisa.com promo code blank check

48:45David Sims:and David just because we invoked President's Day in this ad read I do think we need to show our support for our president Rolk Thunderbolt Ross the Red Hulk himself

48:54Griffin Newman:is he in prison?

48:55David Sims:yes

48:55Griffin Newman:is he no longer the president?

48:57Leslye Headland:maybe in letter of the law

48:59David Sims:but not spirit but here's the good news while stuck on the raft Marvel's high-tech sea jail? Yes. He's sleeping on a Lisa.

49:08Leslye Headland:I sure hope so.

49:09David Sims:A mattress fit for a Rolk.

49:20Griffin Newman:All right, I'm opening the dossier. Okay, in the late 1980s, Cormac McCarthy, normal guy, started working on a screenplay. Chill dude. Chill dude from minute one. Started working on a screenplay. I mean, God, like the whole thing where his first wife married him when he had no fucking money. And they lived in like a shack with no electricity or whatever. And he was like, you have to go make money because I'm writing my books. Yeah. Normal guy. Yeah. And like, he fucking got away with a lot of shit just by writing masterpieces. There's other guys who probably do that and they write unreadable shit.

49:51It also took quite a bit of time.

49:53Griffin Newman:It took him a long time, I think, to get noticed. Like his books, even his early books are very good. Like he's a very interesting writer. But like, yes, took him a minute.

50:02David Sims:Can you just imagine this guy with this headspace being unsuccessful?

50:07Griffin Newman:Just not going to eat a lot of beans. Just being like, I got to make this fucking work. So in the 80s, he starts writing a screenplay called No Country for Old Men. He couldn't find any funding for it. And he puts it on the shelf in 2005, of course.

50:19Ben Hosley:Oh, before writing the novel.

50:21Griffin Newman:Long before. Oh, so he originally was like, this is a movie. That is why that novel is so goddamn readable. Some of his novels are pretty tough to crack. It is so dialogue heavy. It's a little more propulsive and plotty or whatever. And you can find, if you go to Texas State University, where I think all his fucking documents are a lot of fragments of this screenplay or whatever. But he eventually turns it into a book. It comes out in 2005. And the reviews even note, like, this feels like a Coen Brothers movie. No way. You know what I mean? Like they're also like, oh, in general, like, oh, it's quite cinematic.

50:59Griffin Newman:And like, I can see its origins or whatever.

51:02David Sims:When does The Road come out?

51:03Griffin Newman:Right before or right after? The Road is right after. Okay. And so the whole thing with Cormac McCarthy is in 2005 when he releases No Country for Old Men. He is a major novelist.

51:11Leslye Headland:But one year later, he releases The Road and becomes basically like a celebrity and one of the most famous writers alive. It is kind of his No Country the movie moment where everyone's like, okay, we all agree.

51:21Ben Hosley:Yeah, well, it's a back to back. You're the president of literature.

51:23Griffin Newman:And he's suddenly like he's getting dragged onto Oprah and he's like a guy who's like never done any fucking press. And he's like it's like he cannot avoid the phenomenon that that book is. Yeah.

51:34David Sims:Well, and just him becoming a late in life parent and being like, oh, my God, it's a Cormac McCarthy novel with surface level emotion. Here it comes.

51:45Griffin Newman:The road is about two people walking down a road. And it's a post apocalyptic book. And it's about a father and son. It's so easy to get your hands around.

51:54David Sims:I Love My Son of It made him an Oprah book club guy for the first time because it's like, Oprah can't be like, look, I like this, but this might freak you guys out. The Road has that core. I mean, The Road, phenomenal book.

52:06Griffin Newman:Yeah, phenomenal. It is. It's very good. It is not my favorite by far, but it's very, very readable. Anyway, Scott Rudin, normal guy. Normal guy. Normal. Yeah. Gets the rights to this book, I think, before it even releases.

52:19Leslye Headland:And he. As he was wont to do.

52:21Griffin Newman:Yeah.

52:22David Sims:Basically, this era is just like a fucking vacuum cleaner for any kind of buzzy manuscript.

52:29Griffin Newman:He has been working with the Coen since Raising Arizona. He was oversaw production at the age of 28 on that movie. And this, but this is the first time that he is the producer, the lead producer of a film of theirs. And he does their next three, I want to say. That sounds right. He does Burn After Reading and True Grit. Yes.

52:49David Sims:Does he not do Lewin Davis?

52:52Griffin Newman:No, I think not. Okay. Let me double check this. But certainly True Grit. No, he didn't do Burn. Okay. I want to get this right. Yeah. He did, but he... He did do Grit. We talk about it. No, he definitely does Grit. Yeah. I just can't remember what the third thing he does is. It is Lewin. So those are the three movies he worked with them on. Yeah. He gets them to commit to writing. He's hoping he can convince them to direct it.

53:14Ben Hosley:And this is their first adaptation, right?

53:17Griffin Newman:Yes. I mean, you could call Oh Brother an adaptation of sorts. Of the Odyssey, yeah. they would say they never even like opened the Odyssey.

53:24David Sims:But when they win best screenplay, Joel makes the joke of the only two authors we've ever adapted are Homer and Cormac McCarthy, which feels right.

53:33Ben Hosley:Which feels right. Just very quickly, the...

53:36Griffin Newman:The Lady Killers is also an adaptation, I will say. Oh, that's true. Remake. Right. Yeah, that's true.

53:41Ben Hosley:That's true. I just think it's interesting, this sort of like forethought of normal guy Scott Rudin to approach the Coen brothers when they don't really adapt. You know, a lot of the appeal of their films is their language. Yeah. And how funny they are and tone and, you know, you know, commanding performances that are based on their scripts.

54:08David Sims:Yes. Here are a couple of things at play, though. One is Scott Rudin is so fucking hungry to win an Oscar. This is the movie that finally gets him best picture. Right. And it felt like he had been running his entire life to get to that moment on stage. Yes. And he gets on stage and goes, oh, my God, what a surprise. And I'm just like, my guy, you've been giving this speech in your bathroom mirror.

54:30Ben Hosley:Yes, for a long time. Every day of your life.

54:32David Sims:And as David said, this movie has been on like a golden run from the moment it premiered it can.

54:38Griffin Newman:But it was a tough year. I'm sure it was a hard fought campaign or whatever, especially because it was, I mean, Miramax is somewhat behind it, but it's a Paramount Vantage movie. Yeah. And I don't know how much Paramount Vantage like was, you know, sharp elbowed in the campaign sphere.

54:54David Sims:It's basically the final stages of post-Weinstein Miramax, which will completely dissolve before once again getting revived within a couple years. Yeah. And Vantage is shut down basically within two or three years of this.

55:05Ben Hosley:Actually, I think that Miramax. Actually, I think that 2006-2007 time period is when they end the partnership with Disney. That sounds about right. They stop being touchstone and they go to Weinstein Company.

55:22David Sims:I know the Weinstein, because Grindhouse is this same year. That's right, yes. And that was a Weinstein Company movie. So definitely, they had left before this.

55:33Ben Hosley:Oh, I see what you're saying.

55:34Griffin Newman:Yeah, right. I mean, they officially basically shut it down in 2009. Disney did. But Weinstein Company is 05 or 06. Yeah, well, it's Fahrenheit 9-11 is the whole flashpoint. Anyway, it doesn't matter.

55:47Ben Hosley:It doesn't matter, but just point being, it's the end of that run.

55:50Leslye Headland:Fahrenheit 9-11, of course, a film that lied about my great president, George Shepard. Your third favorite president. Sorry, Leslie.

55:56Ben Hosley:No, I was just going to say, like, this is the end of the Miramax run and the birth of Scott Bridge.

56:02David Sims:This is a weird co-production of two companies that are in transitional stages. That hate each other. Yeah. That hate each other. Also transitional. And they're about to close down. Yeah. Stuck between arrows of two different tyrants, as we said.

56:13Ben Hosley:Right? Normal guys. Yeah. Yeah.

56:15David Sims:But Scott Rudin's playbook for so long, beyond throwing things at people and demanding string cheese, was that he would just get, in his mind, the most talented auteurs under his wing.

56:28Ben Hosley:Yeah.

56:28David Sims:After they had proven themselves or once they needed some support. Yeah. And he was basically a human version of like Richard Kelly's The Box, right? Where he'd be like, just don't look. And if you need something, push a button and maybe someone gets hurt. But you don't have to know about it.

56:43Ben Hosley:But you don't have to know about it.

56:44David Sims:I'm just going to fight all your fights for you and insulate you from this. But his favorite thing to do was like, find the material. Yeah. Find the director or be like, what do you want to do next? And all of it felt like in the grand scheme of things, one of these days, this is going to pay off in me winning Best Picture, right? Yes.

57:00Ben Hosley:the bathroom speeches begin. Right.

57:02David Sims:I'm trying to find the right confluence of elements. So I think that's part of it. He's just constantly looking for what might have the juice and looking in unconventional places to his cred. The other part of it is post-Lebowski, when they're kind of knocked down, they start taking four higher writing jobs for the first time.

57:19Ben Hosley:Right. And so there's a lot of uncredited stuff.

57:22David Sims:But Lady Killer starts out as a script that they were not supposed to direct. And Talbot Cruelty was a rewrite job they were not supposed to direct. They get talked into both of those. And then there's like the Gambit remake that someone else ends up making. There's some other stuff. So they're in this zone where they're a little for hire. Yeah. And Rudin's going by that playbook. Oh, I see. If they now.

57:43Ben Hosley:So it's a little more like set up than Rudin having the foresight of. Correct. Coen brothers could write this.

57:49David Sims:Now, the last two times this happened, it didn't work out for them. But I think he's going, yeah, this feels like a better match for them. and if I can sneak them through the back door of just try adapting this, maybe they will once again fall in love with the material, agree to direct it, and this will actually work for them.

58:09Griffin Newman:So, obviously the only real Cormac McCarthy adaptation that had appeared in theaters before this is All the Pretty Horses, which is basically the greatest book ever written. The movie is not very good.

58:20Leslye Headland:Supposedly there's a better cut out there somewhere.

58:22David Sims:Right, it's a contested, certainly the movie that was released in theaters was not what anyone wanted to make. And the question is, was there a version of it that would have worked?

58:30Ben Hosley:Well, I think that Billy Bob Thornton, by his own admission, essentially screened an assembly. That's what he said. And that everybody freaked out.

58:41Griffin Newman:Everyone was like, right, exactly. That book is also poetic, spare, difficult to adapt, like, silently lead character, you know, like whatever. This is a pulpy thriller. Like, and the Coens are like, we're very aware of McCarthy, but like this felt like something we could get our hands around much more. But they love that it's a pulpy book that's an ordinary straightforward treatment of a crime story. And then the ending is so weird. Yes. They like the three quarters in, suddenly they're like, main character is going to disappear. You know what I mean? So that they like the chase story, then getting subverted.

59:23David Sims:There's another thing they love, which is that for the first half of the 2000s, their big dream project was To the White Sea. Yes. It was covered extensively in our friends Ray and Jordan's podcast, which was a novel adaptation that is mostly in the one character's head that doesn't have a ton of dialogue and is this sort of odd take on a survival film. And they could never get that off the ground, right? But they in reading this book, link back to that, the same thing that animated them, which is having a character who barely talks, who you get to define by his actions within a survival situation.

59:59Right.

1:00:00David Sims:Right. That it is circumstantial behavior. Can you paint a full character portrait through that? That this guy speaks so rarely. He's at the center of the story. And we're only seeing him in a very specific set of circumstances. And we're learning who he is through how he tries to game out his continued survival. That is what's up. And so, right. That is what's up. They try to make the movie that is just all that. And it's a little too wild and a little too expensive. Right, right. They had Brad Pitt. He fell out. They were like, it's not getting greenlit if you don't have him. Right. Suddenly, it's like Rudin's bringing them this.

1:00:34David Sims:It's a smaller budget. It's a cleaner sell. But it's got the same juice that they had wanted to play with.

1:00:42Griffin Newman:J.J. thinks this, and I agree with him, that it is a lot. There's a lot of it that reminds me of Miller's Crossing. Both adapting writers. Miller's Crossing inadvertent, or more indirectly, doing Dashiell Hammett, not as specific. But as they would put it, they like how Cormac McCarthy, this is a quote from Ethan, refuses to tell you what people are thinking and just describes what people are doing. I am so into that. They like the lack of interiority. They're like, that's engrossing. That's like interesting in a movie. And they, you know, you have in this book a bad guy, Anton Chigurh. I don't know if you guys agree he's a bad guy.

1:01:21Griffin Newman:I think he raises some interesting ideas. He's a marketplace of ideas. You have an ostensibly good guy, Sheriff Bell. Yeah. And then you have Llewellyn in the middle who's kind of a gray guy. Kind of a sort of like, he's not malevolent, but he's kind of, you know. Well, yeah, he's driven by greed, which we all can relate with.

1:01:38Ben Hosley:He loves his wife, which we're all kind of down with. He does some stupid things where, you know, as the outsiders, we can definitely be like, I wouldn't do that. But like, you don't know. You're kind of, you know, we're all kind of stupid. Relatable. Yes. 100%. And then, you know, just the classic in too deep, in over his head. Yes. Recognizable beginning, middle and end to your every man storyline.

1:02:05David Sims:And you start out with this triangle of like a kind of an unlikely protagonist, right? Thrust in the middle of the wrong story. Yes. Being chased by an unstoppable force. Yes. And the cop who is slowly narrowing in on it all from a distance. Sort of circling around it. Right. Closer and closer.

1:02:23Griffin Newman:Right. They make it clear to Rudin like, hey, this is going to be violent. Like, just making sure you're cool with that. And he's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. They have the line of one of us types.

1:02:35Ben Hosley:It sounded a little different than that, but yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course, of course.

1:02:40Griffin Newman:One of us types into the computer. The other holds the spine of the book flat. That's very funny. With the book, every other chapter is narrative. And then every other chapter is an interior monologue from the sheriff.

1:02:52Leslye Headland:they get rid of a lot of his monologues. You only really do the opening and then some of it he says out loud in dialogue.

1:03:00David Sims:But that's the only voiceover.

1:03:01Griffin Newman:Right, right, right, right. They basically, they strip out dialogue wherever they can. They like the least possible dialogue.

1:03:07David Sims:Another interesting thing of this movie because they are perhaps, they are certainly in the conversation of the best dialogue writers alive.

1:03:15Ben Hosley:That's the thing.

1:03:15David Sims:Their movies are so talky. Certainly. I think their films have always been consciously, I think they're never really defining their characters through their language in a traditional way because one of the things I think they're so smart about as dialogue writers is that their characters are usually using dialogue to lie.

1:03:36Ben Hosley:Yes, exactly. Right? If not for like

1:03:38David Sims:devious criminal means in like saying who they want to be or how they want people to see them.

1:03:45Ben Hosley:Yeah, that's a really good point. And they've always been defining through action.

1:03:48David Sims:And what's interesting is the clash between the action and the words, right? I think in terms of why this movie just connected with everyone, there's something about them pulling back the dialogue a bunch.

1:04:00Ben Hosley:Yes, yeah.

1:04:01David Sims:That I think sometimes their detractors would get distracted by the tap dancing of the verbiage and going like, who are they trying to impress?

1:04:13Ben Hosley:Well, this is the thing, right? Is this too clever? Yeah, this is the thing. Like, I am struggling with this because there are a lot of reasons I would call this a masterpiece. A lot of reasons. But the last two times that I've been on this podcast and I've gotten the opportunity to talk about masterpieces, and I've always felt this way, that a masterpiece has to have something personal about it. And these like Minnesotan Jewish guys. Yeah. It's like if I'm if I have that criteria, which I made for myself, by the way, so I can absolutely break that. But what I will say is that what this movie does, because the script is so faithful to the source material, is that it shows you what phenomenal filmmakers they are.

1:05:04Ben Hosley:Yes. It does not. There's nothing covering it. There's nothing going like, but also we smoothed it over with this thing. And like, we created a character that represented that. And like, you know, and then because you could say Barton Fink, you could say Fargo, you could say Miller's Crossing, for fuck's sake. Like, there's also an argument for a serious man, for sure. Like, so I think, but what's so energizing about it? And I think it's exactly what you're saying about everywhere one was like their back. is that you really get to see, my fucking God, they can shoot a movie.

1:05:38David Sims:Better than anyone else.

1:05:40Ben Hosley:Better than anyone else.

1:05:41David Sims:And basically from the beginning. Yeah. Like just right out of the start.

1:05:45Ben Hosley:Boom. Gorgeous shot. Right. I was sheriff of this. Boom. You know, like it just.

1:05:50Griffin Newman:Some of the most amazing, like, shot making in this movie. It's, look, it's pretty. It's a really pretty movie. It's really pretty. It's all the pretty movies. It's a dramatic part of the country. It looks really cool. There Will Be Blood wins cinematography this year. And there's nothing wrong with that win. Elspeth is a genius. But let's acknowledge the tricky thing that happened. Double Deke.

1:06:13David Sims:Deakins was nominated against himself. For Jesse James.

1:06:17Leslye Headland:For Jesse James in this. So this, I think, is...

1:06:20Ben Hosley:So then it splits the vote?

1:06:21Leslye Headland:I think a little bit of that. No disrespect to Elspeth, who, once again... He's a great DP, and that movie looks very good.

1:06:27Griffin Newman:Yes. That movie's also got some shot making. But No Country, I think, is Deakins, you know, just like tweaking the knobs perfectly, right? Like it is not a showy piece of, you know, cinematography. Jesse James is. Jesse James is like, you're like every single frame, you're like, good Lord. Like, I'd like that frame to please. Like actually hang that in my house. It's an amazing looking movie. Perhaps his prettiest movie. Right. It's a bit much at times, as is everything in that fucking movie, which I like. I do like that movie but right I'm sure he split the vote against himself this should be his two different flavors of himself

1:07:05David Sims:he should be winning with the Coens it takes another 10 years for him to win cinematography Jesus for the first time and then he won three in a row it was the same thing they did to Lubezki he won two I think okay

1:07:17Leslye Headland:he won for it was Blade Runner in 1917 he won for Blade Runner 2049 yeah

1:07:24Griffin Newman:which is an amazing looking movie gorgeous that rocks, but I think at the time people were like, kind of a bummer he won for like a sequel to a movie he wasn't the DP on. But it was also like, guys, please, can we get this one? Yes. And then he won again for 1917. And that's a movie that is loud cinematography, obviously, because it's a single shot and all that. And it was this sort of technical achievement and that was a fine win, but it's, you know, he should have won with the Coens when they won Best Picture. he's more tied to the cones than any other filmmaker I agree and this is a triumphant work that he made with him but whatever I mean I don't fucking know maybe I should just go sit in a chair

1:08:05David Sims:the one behind the microphone in the office is where we record but here's my

1:08:12Ben Hosley:here's what I would say about that here's why there's a possibility this is why he may not have won yes there are gorgeous shots yes there are beautiful landscapes yes there's a lot of what I would call Yeah, beautiful, showy shots. Right. And this is not my idea. It's actually from the YouTube channel, Every Frame a Painting. But great YouTube channel.

1:08:33David Sims:Check those guys out. Not that they need podcasts. Check them out.

1:08:35Ben Hosley:Yeah, absolutely.

1:08:36David Sims:His video on specifically. The Spielberg wonder? Well, that, but the Coen's one where he talks about the way they shoot conversation.

1:08:43Ben Hosley:So he talks about shot, reverse shot. Yep. So he says, you know, this is how they work, essentially. That's where they shine. Right. And Deakins in that video makes the point that with the Coens, he uses the long lens for the coverage of the character.

1:08:59David Sims:He is basically always inside the conversation. You're almost never getting over the shoulders. The camera is in between the people talking.

1:09:06Ben Hosley:It's in between the people.

1:09:07Griffin Newman:Sonnenfeld loved a wide lens and Deakins is the one who's like, guys, a little long.

1:09:12Ben Hosley:And I think that, for example, the coin toss scene, as great as Frendo is in terms of dialogue, which, by the way, that's what they shine at, right? What really kills me in that scene is the framing of that. The sense of space. The sense of space. We don't need an establishing shot that tells you everything about that space. you see how out of place sugar is and you see how much gene jones lives in that world and there's

1:09:48David Sims:something even haunting about gene being in this very busy frame behind the counter all the stuff hanging behind him on the wall and then the window behind him yeah and the sense of kind of endless

1:10:00Ben Hosley:emptiness behind him yes that's true yeah yeah yeah it's constant reminder that these big action

1:10:05David Sims:sort of moments in this film are happening in spots in between emptiness. That's right.

1:10:11Ben Hosley:Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's exactly right. You're in the middle of nowhere. And I think that's my point about Deakins, is that he just doesn't, like, in this film, he's doing perfectly what they do. Yes. Their editor is doing perfectly what they do. Their editor, who is them. Yeah, who is them, right? Right. The rhythm of the dialogue, they understand, And even if it's not what they quote unquote wrote, it is what they do best. It's a good match. Yeah. So it just. Yeah. I wonder if that's why he just didn't have the, you know, the landscape be beautiful. I just I don't know if. But I agree that he should have won with them is my point.

1:10:53Ben Hosley:He did the apex of what they do. I also think. Understood the assignment. Yes. As the kids say.

1:10:58Leslye Headland:I've said this in other episodes. I think. And I do think he's aura farming. Anton Chigurh's aura farming a bit. I don't even know what this is. I don't know what it means.

1:11:05Griffin Newman:It's the new things the kids say. It basically seems to mean like being aura, like A-U-R-A. You know how kids are always saying that people have aura? Yeah. It's like, I guess it's just any scene in a movie where you kind of stand there looking cool. Everyone's like, bro, is aura farming? Okay. Like, I've just, I've been seeing it.

1:11:22Ben Hosley:You kind of get the clout for establishing great vibes or whatever? Yeah. Reaching out to a new audience.

1:11:29Griffin Newman:It's both praise and slightly derogatory, I guess, where it's like, okay.

1:11:34David Sims:Yeah. And just to be clear, we're trying to make our show catch on more with the TikTok generation. Is Llewellyn Moss Sigma? Can we talk about this? I do think. I'm pointing up at the word Sigma. I'm like throwing myself up a bridge.

1:11:46Leslye Headland:He's having a brat summer.

1:11:47David Sims:Podcast over. Well, no, Chigurh is having a brat summer. He is. He's quite a brat, actually.

1:11:52Griffin Newman:He is serving. It would be funny if Woody Harrelson was like, Chigurh is having a brat summer to like Stephen Root or whatever.

1:12:01David Sims:two things about Deakins one I think he's better at shooting actors than anyone else alive period yeah and it's so much his background as a documentary cinematographer not being able to compose

1:12:15Ben Hosley:a block yes yeah he just

1:12:17David Sims:has a really good instinct of understanding exactly I didn't know that to be in relation to the

1:12:23Ben Hosley:performer to capture best

1:12:25David Sims:what they're doing yeah so there is that kind of very unshowy cameras always It's just the exact right place to make everyone pop. Because basically every performance is good in a movie that Roger Deakins shot.

1:12:35Ben Hosley:And he knows that the thing that is going to be scary about that scene is not the camera.

1:12:39David Sims:Yep. The camera is not going to make the scene scary. He understands always that he's in service of the thing. Right? Yeah. And then secondly, he is able to shoot inanimate things with, I was going to say inanimate things, but just non-people. Things that are not faces.

1:12:56Ben Hosley:Things that are, yeah.

1:12:57David Sims:With a sense of innate power and dread. Agreed. The shot early on in the movie of the scuff marks left from the boot. Jesus.

1:13:06Ben Hosley:Yeah.

1:13:06David Sims:Of the sheriff that Chigurh has choked out with the handcuffs is just like one of the most striking images in this film.

1:13:14Ben Hosley:I agree. I agree. And it also is the moment, the first time I saw it, it is the moment where it's like, get on board. Yes. This is the fucking movie. Yep. Yep. There's no fake out. We're starting here. There's no, it's just, we're starting here. It's only going to go, we're starting at 11. Get excited.

1:13:32Griffin Newman:I do think it's weird there's no bloopers at the end. Like he flips the coin, he's like, ah!

1:13:39Ben Hosley:That was the mid-2000s, by the way. Life is a highway.

1:13:45Griffin Newman:Whatever, just, you know.

1:13:46Ben Hosley:Every time he... This is the dawning... Yeah.

1:13:49David Sims:Every time Deakins captures the the the key lock being shot through with the cattle gun. Do you know what I'm saying? Wait, say it again? The cylinder. Yeah. The cylinder of the key at the fucking door.

1:14:05Ben Hosley:Jesus. Yeah.

1:14:06David Sims:Yeah. And there's the one time maybe it happens a couple of times. The one time I remember distinctly where he quickly cuts to a shot of the impact, the imprint left on the back wall. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And stuff like that is somehow like the most upsetting imagery in the movie. Yeah. More than the stuff that is aggressively bloody.

1:14:24Griffin Newman:Yeah. Yes, yeah. Just to wrap up the dossier, the dossier. McCarthy did visit the set, but I think they basically just described him as amiable and gracious, not like there to render judgment.

1:14:38David Sims:They talk about him coming to a screening. Yes. Early on, and they heard him laugh a couple times. And they went, I guess that means he approves.

1:14:45Leslye Headland:I mean famously that means

1:14:47Griffin Newman:the Coens like to take I've heard that from multiple people I feel like someone just texted us that like they don't really give a lot of notes and then you do the take and if they're like ha ha ha then it's like alright I guess we're done

1:15:00David Sims:in unison and does not need to be a funny scene they just like giggle maniacally if they like what's happening

1:15:08Griffin Newman:so this is a crazy okay this is interesting just behind the scenes stuff so Rudin is in the final stages of his deal of Paramount when he gets the rights to this novel. Paramount is turning Paramount Classics into Paramount Vantage, which is now Paramount nothing. Paramount Cowards

1:15:23Leslye Headland:or Paramount Maga or whatever Paramount's up to these days.

1:15:26David Sims:It was just so funny when it went for Paramount Classics, which was like, this is a, the most erudite version of our, like, Archway, right? Right. Like, it felt like it was the Paramount, like, gates framed by, like, flowers and shit and this, like, dainty, like, calligraphy kind of thing. And then it was replaced with like fucking punk rock, bar, bathroom, label maker. The sticker isn't even staying. It's car.

1:15:54Leslye Headland:Vantage.

1:15:57Griffin Newman:Anyway. So he will then move on to produce films. A number of studios, including post Harvey Miramax. Yes. Yeah. To deal with this transition, he proposes that both no country for old men and there will Will Be Blood, a movie he also produced, be set up as co-productions of Paramount, Vantage, and Miramax. Right, right. They have, they're flipped. Basically, Miramax essentially being, of course, a Disney label.

1:16:24Leslye Headland:Right. In the dying days of that.

1:16:26David Sims:But isn't it, No Country was Miramax, Domestic, Paramount, Overseas, and There Will Be Blood was the opposite? I feel like.

1:16:35Griffin Newman:Something like that. Yeah. I don't know. What are you going to say?

1:16:38Ben Hosley:No, I just, I feel like knowing Miramax. Yeah, you're right.

1:16:41Griffin Newman:Okay.

1:16:41Ben Hosley:Oh, you were, that's what it is?

1:16:43Griffin Newman:It was Miramax had domestic on this and international on blood and vice versa for the... Copy that, yeah.

1:16:49Ben Hosley:I cannot believe you knew that.

1:16:51Griffin Newman:My broken brain. My broken fucking brain. Rude and also produced Darjeeling Limited and Margot Wet the Wedding in 2007. So it's just working with a lot of auteurs making difficult movies. Like Darjeeling is a bit of a difficult swing for Anderson that doesn't go over perfectly. Margot is an insanely difficult swing for Bombeck that goes over horribly. Horribly, yeah. And it's still, I feel like, the movie when people are like, I like Noah Baumbach. I'm like, Margot at the wedding. And there's the 5 % of psychos who are like, oh, my favorite. And the others are like, I never saw it or I hated it.

1:17:22David Sims:It was like drinking poison. The rude and magic was that he was like a fucking mafia boss who was like, if this is what you want to make, I will steamroll anyone who stands in the way. Yeah, yeah. I got you 100%. I mean, it's a really good strategy. Yes. If you think about it. It's how he attracted the best directors because he was just like, you will be protected.

1:17:41Ben Hosley:It's actually like, you know, actually Netflix kind of did that in its early days. We're not going to give you notes. We're not going to give you notes. Just come in here and fucking do it.

1:17:50David Sims:And now they still don't give notes. They're normal. No, the Netflix thing was for so long. What is the movie?

1:17:57Ben Hosley:They're super chill. They're all about artistic vision.

1:18:00Griffin Newman:And they like everything to look however it should look.

1:18:02David Sims:Exactly. And they never demand that every movie open with an overhead helicopter shot of the city.

1:18:12David Sims:where they're basically like they have some numbers that tell them if that isn't the opening

1:18:16Griffin Newman:shot then people won't finish their like fucking trader joe's dinner on their table with their mug you know like they don't want to pay attention for 35 minutes no thank you um but yeah the netflix

1:18:27David Sims:strategy versus the rooting thing i feel like the netflix strategy was for years them being like what is the script everyone else has turned down?

1:18:36Ben Hosley:Yes. Well, that's what it is.

1:18:37David Sims:We will let you make it here with a lot of money and no notes. And then some of those came out and you were like, oh, I get why everyone turned this script down.

1:18:45Griffin Newman:No Country, they write, by the way, just to point out, they write at the same time as A Serious Man and Burn After Reading. I think it's important to note that because it's like they hadn't made an original movie in a long time. Right, right, right. At this point. And it's not like this is them and then they're like, oh, maybe we should. It's like they do have these original ideas cooking at the same time.

1:19:04David Sims:But also this period of like profound productivity for them. They start being like once a year guys. For a little while.

1:19:13Leslye Headland:This run of bangers that all came out of the same. Create a bubble. An interesting fact about this movie is that apart from Steven Root, I think everyone in

1:19:21Griffin Newman:it is someone they've never worked with before. And it doesn't feel that way. Everyone in it, you're like, oh, these feel like Cohen guys. And obviously they worked with Brolin again two times. Did they ever work with Bardem or TLJ again, though? No. I feel like, did they ever use Garrett Dillahunt again? He's another guy that feels like they would have used him like five times. Yes, you know?

1:19:42David Sims:He auditioned for Llewellyn five times.

1:19:43Ben Hosley:For Llewellyn, yeah. Yeah. Five times?

1:19:46David Sims:That's what I read. And he could not be more perfectly used in the place he is. Should have been, yeah. It is also funny that he is also in Jesse James and kind of plays a very similar role. What happened with the Heath Ledger of it all? They said... Go ahead. He was their first choice, which makes perfect sense after Brokeback. But also, I think it would have felt a little repetitive. I'm sure he would have figured out a way to make it a distinct performance.

1:20:12Ben Hosley:Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah.

1:20:13David Sims:But you're casting him off of the strength of the thing he just did really well, which is Cowboy Who doesn't say much.

1:20:18Ben Hosley:However, you know, you've got Joker in the midst of all of that.

1:20:22Griffin Newman:Yeah, it would be an amazing in-between if he'd been in this. Yeah, I agree with everything you just said.

1:20:28Ben Hosley:I just wonder, yeah, I just wonder if that would have impacted it at all. Probably not.

1:20:33David Sims:Dark Knight comes out like eight, nine months after this. Oh, it's after this. I wonder if he had said yes to this, if he would have been able to do Dark Knight. He said he turned it down because his daughter had just been born and he wanted to spend time with her. I see, yeah. Which makes sense. And then after nine, ten months, whatever, he accepts the Dark Knight role.

1:20:53Ben Hosley:I see, okay. It should have happened, yes.

1:20:57David Sims:It's just unfortunate that he passed away.

1:21:00Griffin Newman:Yeah, very much. Brolin famously was shooting Planet Terror, which he's really good in. Yes. Really funny performance. Yes. He should do more of that. He does. He works a lot. I shouldn't really complain. And famously got Robert Rodriguez and Quentin Tarantino to help him with his audition tape. And the Coens, when they got it, said, who lit this? Not joking. Yes. And they liked it. Yes. How it was lit. they didn't like him and they said no. And he said that like, he said he thinks it hurt that he was like really big and he had this goatee for the role in Planet Terror and he thinks he didn't look right, but he was also just like, I don't think they liked me.

1:21:41Griffin Newman:Like, it's fine. Like, I wasn't vibing for them. Let's also talk about his - But they couldn't cast this role. Right.

1:21:46David Sims:Let's talk about Brolin's status at this point. Sure. Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah. Because obviously he's like a teen actor, a son of an actor.

1:21:53Griffin Newman:He's a Nepo baby. His dad is a pretty famous actor. I feel like maybe people don't put enough respect on James Brolin's name anymore, but he said the Coens would certainly know that. Know who he was, yeah.

1:22:04David Sims:But he was kind of like an A-plus B-list star, if that makes sense.

1:22:11Leslye Headland:He was very similar to James Garner to me. Right, right, right.

1:22:13Griffin Newman:A big TV actor and a sort of solid-ish movie actor.

1:22:17Leslye Headland:Had the absolute leading man vibes. Yeah. Never totally clicked as a movie star.

1:22:20David Sims:Handsome. Was famously very close to being James Bond. He was almost the only American. James Bond. And of course he's been married to

1:22:28Leslye Headland:Barbra Streisand for a very long time. Which I'm sure is normal as well.

1:22:32Griffin Newman:We're talking about so many normal.

1:22:34David Sims:He has this run of like thrashing and goonies and all his teen performances right where he has just kind of like out of the box charisma as a kid and then talks about that he hit a point where he was just like I want to get good at doing this and tried to really like study learn how to be better and then yet was still stuck in kind of like a true B-movie fourth lead zone. It's a Jessica Lange moment.

1:23:01Ben Hosley:Yep. Right? Like it's a King Kong, hold on a second. Yep. Like one moment. Yep. You know, Oscar.

1:23:08Griffin Newman:In 2000, right. But he was stuck there for a while. Well, in 2000 he's in Hollow Man as like the guy where you're like, hey, Hollow Man, bash this guy's fucking head. And he sucks. He sucks. He's like, what's the matter, girlfriend? And you're like, fucking, I can't wait for the invisible man to waste this guy. fuck this guy

1:23:24Leslye Headland:he always had kind of like he's gonna die like second

1:23:26Griffin Newman:right fake lead

1:23:28Leslye Headland:get him out of here

1:23:29Griffin Newman:right and then he's in like fucking nothing the villain in Into the Blue right it's the in 2004 apparently he's in Melinda and Melinda I don't remember that I did see that film 2005 he's the villain in the Paul Walker Jessica Alba shirtless film Into the Blue one of those films where it was like what's the plot and they're like shirtless shirtless yeah bathing suit yeah 2006 he was in The Dead Girl that didn't win And then in 2007, he's in Grindhouse, In the Valley of Elad, the movie that Tommy Lee Jones gets an Oscar nomination for, No Country for Old Men, and American Gangster. And he's also in the Coen Brothers short film.

1:24:06Griffin Newman:To each his own cinema. To each his own cinema. Right. The next year, he does Dubya, where he plays my favorite president. Yeah. It's technically established, besides the later one. Yeah. Not Obama. Not Joe. No, it is Joe. It's actually Joe. It's Joe. It's Joe. It's Joe. It's Joe. It's Joe. we're back on time and Milk which he is phenomenal his final and he gets an Oscar his first Oscar novel his only only and then after that he has kind of a weird are you a star thing where it's like Jonah Hex it doesn't work

1:24:38David Sims:he for a long time was one of those actors and in Black 3

1:24:42Griffin Newman:like he's good in it

1:24:43David Sims:he was

1:24:44Ben Hosley:the old boy remake old boy remake which is so misguided you know

1:24:47David Sims:he felt quietly like box office poison for a while where anytime he was in a supporting part, it worked. And anytime a movie was pinned on him, it was a disaster. It was a disaster. A little bit. But he's a working actor.

1:24:59Griffin Newman:Yes. He's a working actor. And then he played Thanos and it was one of those things where you're like, that feels like a bummer for him. Yeah. And like, Marvel's not going to pull that off. And God bless him, they pulled that off. And he pulled that off.

1:25:11Ben Hosley:It was when Ruffalo was cast as Hulk. Yes. Same sort of feeling, right? You're like, what the fuck? Why is he doing that? Why is he doing that? Ruffalo? And then fantastic. And then fantastic. to your point

1:25:21David Sims:it's the fact that he pulled it off that people were like he actually gave a real performance he really did

1:25:27Leslye Headland:he's the only reason this shit is working

1:25:29Griffin Newman:I mean he has this run that's like Inherent Vice Sicario which he's great in of course he's very good in that he's one of the ten people trying to climb Everest Hail Caesar which he's great in only the brave he's phenomenal in that movie and then the fucking two Avengers movies the Sicario sequel and then The Dunes which he's wonderful in No, I think he's figured out his thing now. And now he's doing Zach's movie. He's been a little quieter lately, but now he's in Zach's movie. Right. He's in The New Knives Out. Thrilled about that. He's in The Running Man, the Edgar Wright movie, and he's in this Ridley Scott movie called The Dog Stars that's like a post-apocalyptic movie with like Jacob Elordi and him.

1:26:08Griffin Newman:I'm sure that'll be fun. Yes.

1:26:10Ben Hosley:It's just, it's funny how there was... It's like, fine, fine.

1:26:14Griffin Newman:Ridley Scott shot it like two days. He just set up a bunch of cameras in a circle and was like, go on, fucking...

1:26:19David Sims:That moment in 2007 where suddenly it was like, Josh Brolin is in five movies this year working with all major directors. Who made a phone call? Like, what is this? Like what we were talking about in our Mulholland Drive episode. Like, why did Hollywood just suddenly all decide this guy? And then you see the performances and you're like, this guy figured his thing out. That's the thing. Right? This wasn't like some concerted press effort. Yes.

1:26:43Griffin Newman:Brolin famously was like day trading to make money. Yes. all the way up to Making No Country.

1:26:49David Sims:Was married to Diane Lane, was mostly at this point the guy who stands next to Diane Lane while she's having a second act

1:26:55Leslye Headland:sort of revival.

1:26:59Griffin Newman:He says he had a great age.

1:27:01Ben Hosley:Unfaithful was like 2001? 2002? He's sitting next to her. So five years he's sitting next to her.

1:27:05Griffin Newman:I love that movie so much when she's so horny that the wind just fucking blows her across the street. It's one of my favorite movies of all time. That is a movie where people are like, oh, isn't it bad? And I'm like, watch it again.

1:27:15Ben Hosley:No, it is. Sit your ass down. Oh, it is a fantastic movie.

1:27:17David Sims:That's the horny version of Sandra Bullock being so racist. She falls down the stairs and crash.

1:27:24Griffin Newman:It truly is. That is what happens in crash. You can't convince me otherwise. She's so goddamn racist. The floor is like, down you go, bitch. These people. I truly said to my brother, I remember on Exiting Theater, I was like, am I supposed to take away that she was so mean to her maid that the maid, like, cleaned the floors too hard, and that's why she fell down the stairs? She's so racist. My brother was like, what? She lost her center of gravity.

1:27:48Ben Hosley:Oh, my God. You guys, you're going to kill me. I'm going to have a heart attack.

1:27:53David Sims:But Roland talks about that he had the clarity of just being like, I know this is my part. I, like, see how to do this. Yeah, this is me. And I've, like, had something in me that I haven't gotten the chance to show. And this is the vehicle. And I have to figure out how to get through it. I've got to figure out how to get it.

1:28:07Griffin Newman:And he said, like, I had a very good agent who was very persistent who wasn't, like, he's perfect for the part. but was just like, can you just meet him?

1:28:16David Sims:And especially as they're not finding someone else, they could wait back and hold back six weeks later, go like, you want to take another look at Josh?

1:28:23Ben Hosley:And the way he puts it is,

1:28:26Griffin Newman:finally, they're like, fine, fine, fine, fine, fine. He can come down. He says, I started a few scenes. I came down and met them. There was really no reaction in the meeting. I walked out being like, well, it was really nice that I met the Coens. I'm a big fan. And by the time he got home, he got the part. You know, he was told he got the part. Ethan says like They had just Talked to both Tommy and Javier That day And he comes in And that combo helped them be like Yeah these three guys circling each other Kind of make sense to us Yeah And I think there's also the kind of like It's weird it's like Tommy Lee Jones is a major star But obviously he's not exactly like A guaranteed box office guy At that point But he's a major star

1:29:10David Sims:But like fucking Man of the House had come out to pin drops two years before this.

1:29:15Leslye Headland:Pin drops. Javier Bardem is like a respected actor who is certainly not a box office guy yet. He's got one Schnabel Oscar nom under his. Before Night Falls.

1:29:26Ben Hosley:But this is his first English speaking movie.

1:29:29Leslye Headland:He's in Collateral in like that one scene.

1:29:32Griffin Newman:But that's about it.

1:29:33Leslye Headland:He is largely a Spanish actor. During the press tour for this, he did not speak much English. Right.

1:29:39David Sims:And his Oscar speech he gives is a minute and a half and half of it's in Spanish. Like it was that thing where you were like, oh, he kind of learned this phonetically. I've never seen him.

1:29:48Ben Hosley:When I did Acolyte, Li Zhengzhe did the entire show phonetically.

1:29:54Griffin Newman:That's so interesting. That might have helped his performance in a weird way. Just because Jedi are so remote and his characters obviously kind of, you know, where it's like that's sort of an interesting thing to hand an actor. Yeah. he also just probably seems hard though

1:30:11Ben Hosley:yeah but I think with Javier in this movie what's great is that he's again it helps like he he doesn't need to speak until he needs to speak

1:30:21David Sims:and there's also something about the unease of the language

1:30:23Ben Hosley:so everything is well Sugar as you know and you're probably about to read David Cormac wanted to create a character that was ethnically ambiguous you didn't read it and imagine a human person. Sure. Right. So I think that was also, and I don't know if this is ignorant on their part, the Coen brothers, but it seemed to me that they certainly wanted someone that looked ethnically ambiguous. Like what, you know, and what accent is that? Which is why the phonetic.

1:31:00David Sims:Yes, I think so too.

1:31:02Ben Hosley:That is good. You know, like the fact that, yeah, Yeah. When he spoke late, much later, I think, actually, it was I told them I don't. I don't like violence and I don't drive. He talks about that.

1:31:17David Sims:He loved the Coen brothers so much. He said yes to this, even though he was like, I don't get this. I don't get qualified.

1:31:22Ben Hosley:I have no idea what's happening. Yeah.

1:31:24David Sims:This isn't in my wheelhouse. Yeah. But he he has one of the most unique faces. Absolutely. I feel like he has talked about, like, thank God I broke my nose at a young age. Yeah. Like, I don't think I would have been a movie star.

1:31:41Ben Hosley:Oh, have you guys seen Haman Haman, by the way? Yes. I absolutely have.

1:31:45David Sims:One of the wildest looks anyone has ever had.

1:31:47Griffin Newman:You know, there was this thing in the 90s as I was a burgeoning cinema fan. And I realized this is sort of these Spanish films in the 90s. Yeah. Involved insane amounts of sex and nudity. I don't know if you guys are aware of this. Insane. Big-ass Luna, one of these guys who'd be like, hmm, titties. You know, I was just going to be like,

1:32:05Ben Hosley:I'm pulling that off the old library shelf. But it is very funny to see him. Yes.

1:32:11Griffin Newman:You know, well, first of all. That's young Javier Bardem. Yeah, that's him and her.

1:32:15Ben Hosley:That's him and Penelope, who's 18, I think. And he's like 24.

1:32:20Griffin Newman:Yes.

1:32:20Ben Hosley:But actually in that movie, I think it's.

1:32:21Griffin Newman:He's very like skinny and sexy in it.

1:32:23Ben Hosley:Exactly. And he's very aware of how his physicality is defining his character. right like there's a lot of shots of his cock um no no sorry his cock in in underwear sorry to be cleared for the viewers yeah his bulge is is heavily featured he's very much um uh objectified by uh some of the characters in the film you know specifically you know if you don't know the plot of this movie you don't really need to know it it's everyone's having sex yeah it's like a

1:32:55Griffin Newman:relationship that turns disastrous quickly.

1:32:58Ben Hosley:Soap opera, yeah, like it's whatever. It's called

1:33:00Griffin Newman:Hamon Hamon, which of course means ham. Ham. Yeah.

1:33:05Ben Hosley:But point being, I think that was kind of his first role. Yeah, that was his calling card.

1:33:09Griffin Newman:That's his calling card, and then he does live flesh, which rocks.

1:33:12David Sims:Perdita Durango with Rosie Perez.

1:33:15Griffin Newman:Yes. He does the Before Night Falls, obviously, is the big breakout. And then the sea inside, another fucking paralyzed guy movie. Sorry to be, like, painting with a broad brush. That and Diving Bone Butterfly.

1:33:32David Sims:There's something to him.

1:33:33Griffin Newman:He's very good. That's a movie where you were like, he's very good in this. Yes, yes, yes. The movie is fine. It's a solid kind of biopic.

1:33:40David Sims:I think the whole Bardem thing is that, like, his energy, his look, his voice are all constantly, like, teetering on this very, very delicate edge between terrifying, sexy, and silly.

1:33:55Ben Hosley:Absolutely. That's what it is.

1:33:56David Sims:It takes like one degree for him to swing so wildly the other way.

1:34:00Ben Hosley:That is what it is.

1:34:01David Sims:And it doesn't make sense that he can kind of hold all three.

1:34:04Ben Hosley:There is something. It's going to sound weird, but there is something that is silly about the sugar performance. I think that's what they're smart about. Very small. It's like five percent. Yes. But if you as an actor, well, the only thing that's said about him in the book is that he doesn't have a sense of humor. Yes. There's no description of him. There's no like inside his head. What's going on? He thought blah, blah, blah. Yeah. Or he doesn't. It's a little bit. But I think you have to have a sense of humor to play him.

1:34:34David Sims:I agree. And I also think that's so much of the styling, which they talk about. The hair. The hair. I was just going to say the hair is like. And they put him in the outfit. They do a camera test. And he's like, is this a prank? Are you fucking kidding me? Why would I look like this? It's so goofy. That's the 5 % silly.

1:34:52Ben Hosley:And he was like. That's a silly haircut.

1:34:54David Sims:They were laughing hysterically. I thought they were bullying me.

1:34:57Ben Hosley:Yeah.

1:34:57David Sims:I thought they were setting me up for failure. But the thing he does smartly is understand the funniest thing he could do is not play the look at all. Right?

1:35:08Ben Hosley:And he does not. Right. He lets it speak for himself. He knows it's funny. Yeah.

1:35:12David Sims:Yes. Yeah. Right. And that's the sort of like conflict within it of just I cannot get my head around this guy. And they found that hair from a – And the book describes nothing.

1:35:21Ben Hosley:They found the hair from a photograph of a guy, what, in the 70s? Who's at a brothel.

1:35:28Griffin Newman:It's a book that Tommy Lee Jones had, supposedly. I just love the idea of, hey, fellas, want to read my book? That is a great accent. Fantastic. Violence. He does hate violence, but. Doesn't drive. He doesn't drive. But he would He would apparently like He says like I managed to drive myself Into the park to become evil to become death When the camera stopped rolling I would bed The Coen brothers like alright Alright can you get the gun out of my face and He said they would just be giggling I mean which is just like the story Every actor says The haircut Supposedly a photograph of a guy in a bar At a Texas border town in 1979 Their haircut is acting by itself, Bardem says.

1:36:15Griffin Newman:You don't have to act weird. Right, yeah.

1:36:17David Sims:Don't play the hair.

1:36:18Griffin Newman:No, you haven't. To me, he looks like, and this is the thing they thought about, he looks like a fucking monk or knight from the Crusade. Sure. That's what people look like in paintings from the 10th century.

1:36:29Leslye Headland:I feel like they also joke about Dorothy Hamill, but that's part of it. It just looks like he walked out of another dimension.

1:36:35Ben Hosley:That's what it is. That's just what it is.

1:36:37Griffin Newman:This is a human person and he does bleed and shit. It's not like he's the Terminator exactly. I agree. But you are just like, is this someone from yeah, just like another world? Like an alien. Here's the thing

1:36:49David Sims:I will admit that makes me sound stupid, because I am stupid. You're a big stupid idiot. Excuse me, I'm a little stupid idiot.

1:36:56Ben Hosley:I'm very petite. You're physically small. There's stupidity. Mucho grande. When I speak to you, I mean, the first thing I think of is ignorance.

1:37:04David Sims:Yes, absolutely. First and foremost, I remember watching this movie for the first time and getting to the gravestone at the end and being like, oh, this was a period piece?

1:37:15Leslye Headland:Yeah, right. It's 1980. Yeah, they do.

1:37:17David Sims:And every time I watch it. The first time I felt that too. I still get so caught up in it. I forget it was not set in 2007 until the Vietnam line. Yep, agreed. Which somehow I just didn't clock the first time I wasn't doing the math on. The production design is astonishing. Exactly. And they're not playing period that hard, right? And it's like the earmarks are the lack of certain technology, what have you, right? But there is something kind of timeless about it. And yet, Chigurh is the only character who is kind of styled specifically to the 70s in a way that is then so jarring. Yes, yes, yes.

1:37:55David Sims:Why is this guy like a weird amalgamation of trends, you know? Oh, of trends.

1:38:00Ben Hosley:Yes, yes, yes.

1:38:00David Sims:I see what you mean. And not like high fashion trends,

1:38:03Leslye Headland:but you're like, he's sort of got like a Canadian tuxedo thing going on. He's got very 70s boots on. Oh, yeah.

1:38:10Ben Hosley:The costume designer talked about how she wanted the boots to feel like a weapon. Yes. Like knives, basically. And she said she was like, no one else in the movie is wearing this style of boot. His pants are even kind of slared out. Yes. It's got a heel to it, sort of.

1:38:28David Sims:But there's the moment late in the film when he's trying to extract the bullet from his leg. and they cut to him sitting in the motel bathroom, right? With his legs crossed. Gorgeous. Using tweezers to try to pull out a bullet shard. And he's like banging down. And he looks hot, but also he's not posing in a naturally menacing way, right? There's something as if he is posed as if he is painting his own nails.

1:38:55Ben Hosley:He, this is what I mean. And he's like slouched over. And I think it starts with Hamon Hamon, right? Is that I think this is a man who understands that a lot of acting is the neck down.

1:39:07David Sims:He's got a tremendous amount of body. He cuts just a big figure, right? And he's really smart about knowing how to subvert what you expect him to do or how you expect him to play a scene without just feeling like he's being flippant, you know? Or like contrarian or whatever. And it's like, right, somehow the fact that he's not playing that scene tough makes it tougher. Somehow the fact that he's like slouching over in a way where there actually are tummy rolls rather than later when he stands up in the towel and you see him looking pretty cut makes him look more sexual. But also makes it more otherworldly where you're like, it's even weirder to see this haircut on a naked body.

1:39:52David Sims:You know?

1:39:57Griffin Newman:We're leaving today and entering a world of Mickey Mouse waving Princess meeting and greeting

1:40:03Leslye Headland:Lightsaber clashing The Twilight Zone Tower of Terror dropping Banshee flying

1:40:10Griffin Newman:Space Mountain launching Galaxy rewinding What's the new death look Galaxy rewinding Fireworks igniting

1:40:18Leslye Headland:World of Other Worlds For whatever you love Infinite worlds await at the most magical place on earth. Walt Disney World Resort. When you want your spring break to feel like. And your kids pool day to feel like. And your hotel bed to feel like. And room service to feel like. Because at Hilton, hospitality feels like. Your cabana's ready.

1:40:48Griffin Newman:Would you like fresh towels?

1:40:49Leslye Headland:It matters where you stay. Book now at Hilton.com. Hilton, for this day.

1:41:00Griffin Newman:Tommy Lee Jones, obviously, I would say, is the most route one casting decision in this movie. Yes. Like, we're going to have Tommy Lee Jones play a Texas sheriff who's a little over it.

1:41:11David Sims:And yet, I think this performance was greeted as a, like, welcome back.

1:41:15Griffin Newman:And it's an amazing performance. It's really, yeah. A stunt. And they wanted this character to be tart. Like they didn't want like a sort of good old boy, essentially. And that's what TLG is so good at. But also what he's good at is... He's from where it's set. They're like, he's the real thing for the region. He just checked every box. And then there's some interview where someone's like, is he scary? And Ethan says, he's a big pussycat. And Joel says, let's just say he doesn't suffer fools gladly, but he is fine. Yeah. I also think Famously he sued Paramount And got like a fucking ton Of money from them Because they fucked him On some contract thing For this movie Yes They gave him like Fifteen million dollars

1:41:55David Sims:That kind of

1:41:55Griffin Newman:Yes But that was not A Cohen's thing obviously

1:41:58David Sims:But I think right He waived his quote For some back end That then they tried To withhold from him

1:42:03Griffin Newman:They messed with him

1:42:04David Sims:I was going to say I think a lot of people They could have cast Would then try to play As you said Like tart Rough Right Haggard You know And what's smart is They like hire Tommy Lee Jones. That's his default setting. And then they're sort of saying, like, can you make this your most emotional performance ever? Absolutely. Absolutely. And that's the magic of it. It's really magical. From the get go, there's something disarming about starting a movie inside Tommy Lee Jones's head where he's basically admitting to the audience, like, I just don't even know anymore.

1:42:37Ben Hosley:I mean, if you think about like, you know, him in pop culture, obviously he's acted in a gajillion things since The Fugitive. But like, that's his, you know, you look at him, that's what you think, right? It's the defining role in many ways. Yeah, you think high status, you think, you know, barking orders, you think, yeah, of course, like, you know, being the good guy at the end, but almost sort of reluctantly, right? You know, I killed my wife. I don't care. You know, like it isn't even, I don't believe you. Yes, you did. It does not matter to me because I'm the Anton Sugar of this movie.

1:43:09David Sims:That line reading wins him the Oscar. And from that moment on, every time he is cast, they are either leaning into that or trying to subvert it. Yeah. Right? Like, it becomes the unavoidable comparison point of this is, as you said, this is what people have in their mind when they think about Tommy Lee Jones.

1:43:25Griffin Newman:I think so.

1:43:26David Sims:And he's not a guy who transforms himself, so he's going to be used differently, but you're never going to be like, that was Tommy Lee Jones?

1:43:32Ben Hosley:I also think, I'm just realizing this in this moment, that actually it does help the narrative of the movie because there's this understanding that he, in his iconic role, tracks down the bad guy. Yes. Quote unquote. Right? Like, he is excellent at that. So you do continue to think, even subconsciously, he's going to catch this guy.

1:43:53David Sims:And not only that, you start with his interior monologue, and then he's basically not on screen for like 20 minutes.

1:43:59Ben Hosley:Oh, is that true?

1:44:00David Sims:And his screen time increases as the movie goes on, but he's pretty backloaded. So it's important to be like, here's the big movie star. You know who this guy is. Yeah. You're setting expectations based on him being in a movie with this kind of setup. Yeah. We're pinning him at the beginning. You're never going to forget about him. Yeah. You're keeping track of him the entire time, even when he is elusive from the story.

1:44:25Ben Hosley:Yes. Yeah.

1:44:26David Sims:Because we're going to have to get back to him at the end and he needs to have been felt the whole time. Yeah, he's, yeah. Incredible performance. And of course, right. He doesn't get nominated for this. He gets nominated for In the Valley of Allah, a movie that's completely forgotten. It is. The same year.

1:44:38Griffin Newman:It's not, in my opinion, a amazing movie, but he is unsurprisingly very good in it. And it was kind of a combo nom.

1:44:46David Sims:And everyone knew that Bardem was basically walking away with supporting actors. So I think they didn't.

1:44:51Ben Hosley:Just quickly, who was that? Just a couple vibes of who the other guys were?

1:44:56David Sims:Okay, so lead that year is Daniel Day wins. He wins. I'm a man of my boy

1:45:03Griffin Newman:I mean that is cunt George Clooney and Michael Clayton did you see that interview he gave about it it was on one of the talk shows where he says like the thing Clooney says like the thing I get the most praise for from like people now is the final scene of Michael Clayton just drive right and he's like the reason I agree with them is that entire fucking scene we were shooting have you seen this interview yes it's incredible Like what people on the street were going, hey, George Clooney. They were seeing him in the window. I was like, oh, because it was just filming live.

1:45:35David Sims:And they were like, we had one take of that. It was like one mag. We weren't going to get a second shot.

1:45:41Griffin Newman:So he's like, I am trying so hard not to laugh the entire scene.

1:45:43David Sims:And people are like, what is he thinking of? Like the blankness on his face is so profound. And you're like, that guy's just trying to hold his shit together.

1:45:51Ben Hosley:Hey, Georgie. There's a story like that about De Niro and Robin Williams. in Awakening.

1:45:58David Sims:My favorite story.

1:45:59Ben Hosley:Which I'm not going to say on this podcast. Okay, I was going to say. Oh, you can do it. I feel like I can't say. Yeah, the listeners can look it up. Wait, wait.

1:46:06Griffin Newman:What is it again? Robert De Niro. It's Robin Williams.

1:46:09Ben Hosley:It's Robin Williams and De Niro in Awakenings. Awakenings. And it's a similar vibe.

1:46:15David Sims:It's a sequence in the movie in which De Niro has not yet awakened. That's correct. So he is a man trapped inside a body.

1:46:21Ben Hosley:And we've got bystanders.

1:46:23David Sims:He's back in the car.

1:46:24Ben Hosley:You know, screaming, hey, De Niro, you know, like this.

1:46:27David Sims:and he's just keeping his stillness.

1:46:29Ben Hosley:That's correct.

1:46:30David Sims:This character cannot react. Yeah. Yeah. And then, because David asked, a guy yells out, Hey, Bobby, you still like that black pussy?

1:46:41Ben Hosley:Can you imagine?

1:46:43Leslye Headland:And De Niro's just like... No, De Niro breaks. Oh, okay. That guy.

1:46:48David Sims:Williams was like, it was the only time I ever saw him break. Yeah. Where he had to be like, yeah, I did.

1:46:52Ben Hosley:It's so...

1:46:54David Sims:You got me there.

1:46:55Ben Hosley:It's dark, but it's a fucking, it's a story. We'll say it's a story. We'll say that.

1:47:00Griffin Newman:Guys got me picked. You have a nominee for Best Actor of the Year. It's a very strong year because Viggo Mortensen in Eastern Promises, which is another one where you're like, is this like a lizard from Jupiter? Like, you know, this guy who shows up is just like, I cut off hands and feet. And you're just like, I want to. A perfect description. I believe you. Oh, boy. A lizard from Jupiter. And then Depp in Sweeney Todd, which is this sort of divisive performance. I do love him. him trying something. It is. It's him. And then supporting

1:47:28David Sims:is a totally normal guy. Just,

1:47:31Griffin Newman:it's the most normal. We're seeing so many normal people. Yes. And we love talking about that on this podcast. Supporting actor, we do. We've never done it. No, it's never. Bardem, Philip Seymour Hoffman in Charlie Wilson's War. He had just won an Oscar, but that's a showy supporting performance.

1:47:45Leslye Headland:I mean, the one scene. Yes. It's just lights up. Tom Wilkinson and Michael Clayton,

1:47:51Griffin Newman:arguably a worthy winner, incredible performance,

1:47:54Leslye Headland:Casey Affleck, Jesse James.

1:47:56Griffin Newman:Yes, total category fraud. He's a lead, but he's supporting to Pitt, but really, really good performance. From a normal person. Another normal, totally normal. And Helho Brook and Into the Wild, which is a career nom, but a great performance. Yes, right.

1:48:10David Sims:And I think was seen as it might be his year in a gold watch kind of, thanks for a great career. Of course, yeah. But Chigurh was just like, it felt like -

1:48:20Ben Hosley:It doesn't sound like the strongest year to me in terms of competition for him. That was sort of the question behind the question. I also just think... Like, was anybody giving him a run for his money? No.

1:48:30David Sims:I feel like he basically had this lock from the moment the film premiered. And I also think... I remember saying to people when this came out, like, this is the most iconic villain that anyone has created since Hannibal Lecter. I agree with that. Like, this is such a kind of, like, perfect, like... Excellent. The voice, the look, the behavior. Agreed. Scene for scene. this is just this character so fucking sticky. And I said to a friend in film school, like people are going to be parodying this character for 20 years. It is to my great relief that I feel like what happened is one year later, the Joker comes out.

1:49:06David Sims:Yes. Oh, yeah. And that becomes the villain that basically everyone is sort of trying to chase for the next 20 years.

1:49:12Griffin Newman:It would be funny if like Dank Meme Lords

1:49:14Leslye Headland:started like Anton Chigurring overall.

1:49:17Griffin Newman:You know what I mean? Like if he became their like guy.

1:49:19David Sims:I think it is to culture's great gain that somehow Chigurh got spared the memeification that would have kind of flattened him a little bit. Yes. Based on the Joker like nine months later. Yeah. Just becoming the thing. And then also like most other villains after that are sort of trying to iterate on what Ledger did. Yes. And it still makes Bardem and this feel like this very unique, bizarre lightning in a bottle thing.

1:49:48Ben Hosley:Yeah.

1:49:48David Sims:also with the benefit of not being like and then Hopkins played Lecter three more times, you know?

1:49:54Ben Hosley:Yes, yeah, exactly, exactly. We suddenly throw that person in the lead and it's like, no thank you.

1:49:59David Sims:Yeah, because I just still, I watch this and I go like, where the fuck did this come from? Right. And it still feels fresh to me. Yeah.

1:50:07Griffin Newman:Yeah. So, wait, back to the rest of the day. Kelly MacDonald, amazing in this. Oh, unbelievable. Unbelievable. So good. Kind of a swerve casting wise, obviously.

1:50:19Ben Hosley:It's a little bit like a Helena Bodum Carter fight club situation where you're like, the girl from Trainspotting is Scottish woman alive. Just dropped in the middle of. Yeah, this like she's she's so she's excellent.

1:50:36David Sims:And just like talk about perfect characterization in few words. Their first exchange on the couch of the trailer. Right. Yeah. Where he's like, you keep talking like that, I'm going to have to take you back and fuck you. Yeah, yeah.

1:50:48Ben Hosley:And then she's like, big talk. Big talk.

1:50:51David Sims:And then he just sits there and continues to drink beer and you see it on her face of like...

1:50:55Ben Hosley:Keep it up.

1:50:56David Sims:I wish he would. I know. I'm like, let's go.

1:50:58Ben Hosley:Cut to that. Not the fucking water. Right. Kelly MacDonald, much, much better than the character in the novel. I would agree with that. If there's any real kind of...

1:51:08David Sims:And the character in the novel is much more overwritten. Yes. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

1:51:13Griffin Newman:Mother-in-law is Beth Grant, the iconic.

1:51:14Ben Hosley:Oh, you know. Always good at playing a baddie. Absolutely. I'm starting to doubt your commitment to Sparkle Motion. Yes. And that is iconic behavior.

1:51:25David Sims:And is the pageant head in Little Miss Sunshine as well having to freak out?

1:51:31Ben Hosley:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:51:31David Sims:Is very good at that. Steven Root being Steven Root.

1:51:39David Sims:Is he? The actor they have worked with the most, I was sort of trying to do a little count in my head. Who? Stephen Root? I mean, he's up there. I'm like McDormand, Buscemi.

1:51:48Griffin Newman:But I mean, like McDormand, right, is obviously up there. Right, right.

1:51:51Leslye Headland:Root's in so many of them.

1:51:53Griffin Newman:He's in... So many. Yeah.

1:51:56Leslye Headland:So many.

1:51:56Ben Hosley:Remember him in True Blood? Fantastic in True Blood. Isn't he incredible? Yes. What the hell? He's always good. He's always good, but that was a moment where I was like, oh, I was unfamiliar with your game, Mr. Rick.

1:52:08Griffin Newman:Right. He'll do something that's another string to his bow. You're kind of like, oh, I thought you played this kind of guy. Is O Brother his first Coen's, though? Is that possible? It looks like it is. And then you have Lady Killers. He's great in that scene. No contrary he is. Scruggs. Scruggs. Okay. Four? Yeah, four. I don't know. That was a cursory glance. Yeah. McDonald, one thing that's interesting about her, though, is that she's sort of, because she's so peppered in the movie, she said she would, like, shoot for a day and then be out for like two weeks. Yeah. Then she for another day being out for another couple weeks and she mostly just like hung out in South Texas where she's the energy

1:52:43David Sims:of the character who's just sort of like I don't totally know what this whole movie is going on here. Right.

1:52:49Ben Hosley:Something's happening. I have no reference for you know.

1:52:52David Sims:Privy to.

1:52:53Ben Hosley:Yeah.

1:52:53David Sims:I mean the other notable performance to call in this movie is like they kind of save Woody Harrelson from the wilderness with this film. I think that's yeah. It's the start of him. Yeah.

1:53:03Ben Hosley:It's a nice little Janet Leigh right. Like it's a little like oh here comes the he's dead, you know?

1:53:08David Sims:And 10 years earlier, you're like, he would have played Llewellyn. That's true. And he definitely felt a little dinged at this moment. I remember even seeing him in the trailer going like, what he heralds? That's interesting.

1:53:18Griffin Newman:They think he has, just from this, like major peck and paw energy. And they're like, he gives us, like, you know, the sort of whatever, like that thing.

1:53:30David Sims:It's just like a perfect three scene arc. Like there's an entire movie in his performance. Yeah, bubonic plague.

1:53:36Leslye Headland:Bubonic plague.

1:53:37Griffin Newman:Yeah.

1:53:38Leslye Headland:What?

1:53:39David Sims:He says, compared to what?

1:53:41Griffin Newman:The bubonic plague. Film cost about$30 million. Much of the film was shot in New Mexico, but also Texas. Right. As we mentioned, Marfa. Texas and Marfa, famously kind of an arty town. They got a lot of, you know, boutique-y little galleries and stuff.

1:54:00David Sims:They got the Prada store, right? Of course.

1:54:02Griffin Newman:Yeah.

1:54:03Ben Hosley:Still have to visit. I forgot about that photo. Thank God.

1:54:08Griffin Newman:Dark. Right. And of course, There Will Be Blood is shooting at the same time. Yes. And there is a time they're shooting Brolin in like remote West Texas and across the horizon is Paul shooting like oil on fire or whatever. Just insane.

1:54:24David Sims:Right. It's very cool. Insane. Yeah. But yeah, no, I mean, we've talked about a bunch of the scenes out of order, but you're really just dropped into the middle of it, Tommy Lee Jones's head, and then the cop trying to call in about Chigurh immediately kills him and then you're out in the road and you're seeing the first use of the cattle gun. Is that the right term? Yeah, it's a cattle prod or a bolt pistol or whatever you want to call it. I mean, just such an incredible choice. Yeah, it's right out of the book. Going back to the power of objects, right? This idea that he takes this thing that is obviously menacing and dark.

1:55:02David Sims:It is a thing we use to exert power.

1:55:05Ben Hosley:It's like a supervillain weapon, right? You're like, what the fuck is that?

1:55:09David Sims:But yet in farming, it's used in a like, well, this is just the nature of my job.

1:55:13Ben Hosley:And it's also, yeah, there's a there's sort of a quotidian thing to it. And also people are cattle. Right. Right. They're animals.

1:55:21David Sims:There is an innate dehumanizing in the fact that he is using this to kill people, even though that is what is meant to do to take lives.

1:55:28Ben Hosley:Yeah.

1:55:28David Sims:And just the eeriness of him telling the guy to stand still. a thing to

1:55:34Griffin Newman:note about this movie is that it sounds really good now all Colin and Brother movies sounds good because Skip Leavesay of course their sound editor really takes some pride in this one they did a lot of on set sound rather than sweetening stuff in post

1:55:57Griffin Newman:Leslie, sorry, this is a complete tangent, but you did make The Acolyte.

1:56:01Ben Hosley:Please help me.

1:56:02Griffin Newman:When you're doing lightsabers, and The Acolyte has a lot of lightsabers. A lot of them, yeah. You know, I just watched Dan Dord and no fucking lightsabers, which is fine. Like, it doesn't need any lightsabers. Yeah. No, no, it's not, yeah. What do they have now? Do they have, like, a full lightsaber? Or is it, like, still, like, a glowy stick where, like, a lot of the works didn't, you know, like, how much, how complicated is it?

1:56:21Ben Hosley:So for our show, we were doing an immense amount of fighting and specifically Woojah influences. And so the action choreographer Chris Cowan and I were creating sequences where the lightsabers were used very quickly and swiftly the way they are in the prequels. right? The prequels obviously utilized an enormous amount of VFX to create the lightsabers. Those suckers? You guys, are you familiar with the...

1:56:55David Sims:Never seen them.

1:56:56Ben Hosley:Have you? Yeah, 1999? Yes.

1:57:00David Sims:Ewan McGregor? The guy from Strange Sponic?

1:57:04Ben Hosley:So, for our show, it was very different. I won't get too in the weeds about it, but when I went to the... I said okay, I want specific lightsabers that can do that, that can be light and fought with that quickly. And I also want a lightsaber that has a Shoto that you can unlock and pull out. Am I incorrect? They lost their minds. They were like, what are you talking about? Yeah. We cannot create lightsabers that are that light, that are that lightweight. My understanding. We cannot do that. That we cannot do the lights. I also said I want the lights within. Like I want it to be practical. So that you can actually see the light on the actors' faces.

1:57:52Ben Hosley:The Shoto was a big deal because they were like, it doesn't make sense for the handle to be that long. So these are guys, by the way, these are guys that I respect. They are doing their job. But I did have to essentially change the way that they had been thinking about lightsabers for, you know, the Disney reboot slash television.

1:58:15David Sims:Am I incorrect in thinking that? In the 70s and 80s, they were basically using a lot of reflective tape to be able to light them and get the glow and then extensive post-work to do the coloring and to actually give it the sort of power it needed. But that way there was a kind of light source and reflective off of it. And in the prequel era, it was more just sticks that were emanating no light and the light was entirely a post-effect.

1:58:38Ben Hosley:And therefore, you could have faster battles.

1:58:42David Sims:Famously, Ewan broke a lot of the sticks. Yes. And you wanted there to actually be interplay in camera between the actors and the weapons and the light.

1:58:50Ben Hosley:And the sticks had to hit each other over and over again. Right. So these were not like, you know. That is interesting. So everything. So here we go. All the lightsabers are much, much heavier than they can be for the actors. The first round is actors going and action choreographers going, these are too heavy. We cannot. The poor actors are like, I can't lift this, like let alone, you know, except for Manny Jacinto, who was like, I just I don't know what the fuck is going on in terms of how how deeply he was able to adjust and create that character and do that much stuff. But so, sorry, long story short, we had to essentially create lightsabers that aren't usually lightsabers.

1:59:39Griffin Newman:I just, you can't say this. You can't agree with me. And that's fine. You can't say anything on this. But like a lot of the post-Disney Star Wars stuff has not had good lightsaber fighting.

1:59:51Ben Hosley:Agreed.

1:59:51Griffin Newman:Okay, she can't agree with me. No, I agree.

1:59:53Ben Hosley:And part of it is because the lightsabers are so heavy. This makes sense. Truthfully, like that's what it is.

1:59:58Griffin Newman:In both of the sequel films, the lightsaber fights are very kind of old-fashioned medieval, like swinging these heavy fucking swords.

2:00:05Ben Hosley:That's exactly it. If they're medieval, they're not ninja or samurai.

2:00:08Griffin Newman:And the characters are removed from the High Republic shit.

2:00:12Ben Hosley:But Darth Vader is samurai, but it's not.

2:00:16David Sims:In the original trilogy, they barely move, right? It's a lot of big swings. Everyone moves way too much. But it's a lot. But there's this tough thing of what exists between those two poles, between Alec Guinness standing planted and just swinging one time. Yes. And Ewan McGregor being able to do like back flips and like basically becoming devil sticks.

2:00:36Ben Hosley:And I want to say like these guys, I'm not talking, you know, shit about how they do their job and create their lifesavers. It's just they're like, this is how, they're just incredible. They're just like, this is how lightsabers work. Yeah. You know, like, and they were very, very accommodating and willing to go with what my vision was. And so I will always be grateful to them for that because I think it really overstepped what their understanding was.

2:01:04Griffin Newman:I just think the Acolyte was the first post-Disney Star Wars thing I saw that had good lightsaber. I would agree with that. Just say it. Yeah. And, you know, some of this post-Disney Star Wars stuff has not emphasized that at all. And that's fine. But other stuff and lightsaber fighting has really bummed me out. Yeah. Yeah. And I know it's hard. It's hard. It's hard to fucking choreograph it.

2:01:23Ben Hosley:Well, you got to, like, do all those types of things. You know, the actors have to, you know, I was, we were talking before, I was not willing to do any face replacement, you know. So a lot of these people learned their, a lot of these actors learned, you know, not the wire work, obviously, and the, you know, but they did a lot.

2:01:41David Sims:But it, right, you're, it's a tremendous amount of work to figure out how to solve problems that you're creating, right?

2:01:48Ben Hosley:That's filmmaking. Yeah. That's our job. Like, that's exactly, oh my God, I've never heard.

2:01:53David Sims:If you want to do it right, if you're like, it needs to be this. And if I'm planting my feet down and saying it's got to be this, then people are circling back and going, here's all the reasons that's impossible.

2:02:04Ben Hosley:That is exactly what my job is. My job is solving problems I created.

2:02:07David Sims:So here's my question off of this. I think a good on-ramp back into the sound of No Country, which I have a point to make about. How weird is it to be sitting on set, watching extended lightsaber fights, and just hearing like... Like, obviously, so much of it is the sound of lightsabers, which are done in post. And when you're there watching it, and you're like, that looks great, does it always fundamentally feel a little silly when they're just going like...

2:02:33Ben Hosley:Well, because what... And I... Listen, I appreciate the compliment. And David and I, I'm so glad that you had that experience with it, because that was my intention.

2:02:42Griffin Newman:I also think it was one of the only things that really engaged with the prequels in a meaningful way.

2:02:46Ben Hosley:That's what I was, again, you know, thank you. I'm a fan of the Acolyte over here. Thank you. Thank you very much. A lot of work went into that, David. A lot of, like, Legends work went into that. But that's weird. I thought you'd never seen a Star Wars movie. Well, of course I haven't. I just, you know, a lot of the disappointment that I felt was that, you know, there wasn't enough acknowledgement of that, David. if I'm being honest. Sure. You know, I just kind of thought, you know, I put a lot of work into this and into canon and involving like video games, which by the way are canon. And, you know, creating...

2:03:25Ben Hosley:No, it's a weird world. It's a weird world, right? And the cartoons and the video games... Those books aren't allowed,

2:03:30Griffin Newman:but maybe we can bring some back.

2:03:31Ben Hosley:Yeah, exactly. We're allowed to bring some back. Those video games weirdly are all canon.

2:03:34Griffin Newman:Yeah. Right.

2:03:35Ben Hosley:And so there were a lot of like legend stuff that I dropped in and, you know, like the tracker character is an alien from that. Like, anyway, point being, and we were engaging in those prequel kind of, you know, all of that. So I was a little disappointed that the show didn't get like a larger sort of, you know, what's the word? Like pat on the back for that, you know? Like, I don't think people need to like fawn over it. But it just, anyway, point being, the, because you asked me about that. I think that's how this started. The dull sound. Is that you were asking about that. But I think because the choreography that Chris Cowan created and then the stunt team and then first team was so astonishing that I very rarely was kind of thinking about it.

2:04:20Ben Hosley:I was just so impressed. Like, I was just like, Jesus, this looks like The Matrix. This looks like Woosha. This looks like Crouching Tiger. Like, this is—so it was very goofy, for sure.

2:04:29David Sims:But then when you put the sound on top of it, it becomes magical.

2:04:31Ben Hosley:Exactly, yeah.

2:04:32David Sims:On top of something that already was impressive. Right.

2:04:34Ben Hosley:And the thing that I think is so impressive about the sound in No Country is that it's exactly what you're saying, David. There is not this reliance in post-production to create the sound of New Mexico. Yes. You know, they are doing it right there. I'm assuming, right? Like the Foley is all. I want to say one final thing about Star Wars.

2:04:55Leslye Headland:Fine.

2:04:57David Sims:Go ahead. Fine. That there is always this response to any modern Star Wars thing of that's not what we want. If they could just do this, we'd all be happy. Yes. And of course, anytime that happens, there is a contingent of people who are very loud, who are equally angry. Yes. And go, not that, this. Yes. Yeah. And I have contended with friends of mine who are Star Wars fans who will say things like that. Like, I genuinely think. Yes. It is somewhat unsolvable. Right? Yeah, I would agree. Not that you can't make great Star Wars stuff. No, I would agree with that. It's hard to make something for everybody.

2:05:25David Sims:But the cultural relationship to Star Wars is so intense in that way.

2:05:29Ben Hosley:And I think that's why it's hard for them to reach out in terms of an audience, because so many people who are not Star Wars fans, you know, I would say to them like, well, OK, before I started writing, it's like, OK, well, why are you not a Star Wars fan? And they would say, well, I just don't know enough about the stuff. Yep. And I was kind of like, God, that is so the opposite of 1977.

2:05:48David Sims:And there is this weird battle between is the goal here to make something for everyone? Is the goal here to make something for people who don't think they like Star Wars? Is the goal to make something for specific subsections of fandom? And all of it gets this weird intense response. Yeah. There has not been any ability to allow Star Wars to become a thing that can be prismatic. Yeah. And not have to represent all of it at once because the magic of those original movies is like, holy shit, it's everything all at the same time.

2:06:18Ben Hosley:That's exactly right.

2:06:19David Sims:Which is impossible to replicate because it didn't exist before then. Yes, it was lightning in a bottle shit. Right. And all of this exists in the wake of it. the clearest distillation of this I have ever seen. And then we'll get back onto No Country for Old Men is the thing where they discovered the fucking 70 millimeter print of the original theatrical release of Star Wars. And they were like, we didn't think this existed. And they screened it in London at the BFI and Kathleen Kennedy showed up and she was like, we've been searching for this. We're so happy. And they screened it. And like five different journalists wrote reviews where they were like, it looked like shit.

2:06:52Leslye Headland:And these are the exact people for 50 years

2:06:54David Sims:have been like, why won't they give us a theatrical cut? Get rid of the special editions. They just gave us theatrical. I'll confess it. This fucking sucks.

2:07:04Griffin Newman:This is like dog shit. There are certain things because you'll watch those despecialized editions of you where you're like, oh, fuck that the X-Wings look like that. I kind of got used to them looking like that. There's certain things where you're like, I don't need there to be a Looney Tune playing out in the background with a fucking cartoon. There's stuff George undeniably

2:07:22Leslye Headland:improved. Right. But then there's Yes, that's true. Some of the little bits of cleanup. You're like, oh, yeah. But now that dialogue has shifted to like,

2:07:29David Sims:what we want is someone cutting some of George's things. I'll say it. I'll say it. I'll say it.

2:07:36Griffin Newman:I always say it. What they want is to be 12 again.

2:07:38Ben Hosley:That's what everyone wants.

2:07:39Leslye Headland:So do I. Yeah. So same.

2:07:41Ben Hosley:Same.

2:07:41Leslye Headland:Here's what I'll say about the sound of no country. The other big part of this and why I think. My allowance was like two pounds a week or whatever. I mean, when I was 12.

2:07:49David Sims:Yeah.

2:07:49Leslye Headland:I don't think I was getting up to much.

2:07:51David Sims:It took five years to buy a CD-ROM. Right. I remember doing that math, like getting a catalog and being like, how much do CD-ROMs cost?

2:08:00Ben Hosley:Five years. Yeah.

2:08:01David Sims:Oh, my God. That's true. I get a fucking Anton Chigurh pocket full of change every week. I was getting like two pounds. I'd say to my dad, I'd be like, isn't my allowance like 45 cents? And he'd be like, I don't know. It's what I have on here. Yeah. The day you remember to ask. This movie has no score until the end credits. That's the other part of it. stands out even more because the sound, the noises, and especially a movie that has less dialogue than their films usually have, the sounds are the soundtrack.

2:08:34Ben Hosley:But they must be augmented in some way, right? You know what I mean? Like they're not. No, for sure. So it's orchestrated, but that's true. You know, there's no music.

2:08:41David Sims:I think the Skip leaves a magic is that he knows how to just overcrank everything just a little bit. Yes. To make it feel hyper real. Yes, yeah. And in the vacuum of stoic characters, lack of Carter Burwell score, that becomes even more evocative.

2:08:58Ben Hosley:Right. I see what you're saying. Yeah.

2:09:00David Sims:But but it is a movie where you're just like everyone walks differently. You you hear and feel the differences in everyone's footsteps. Yeah. You know, and every surface they're standing on. It's just like incredible, incredible shit. And it's part of what makes this movie like eerie in such a stained way for me.

2:09:22Ben Hosley:Yeah.

2:09:22David Sims:Is, you know, I think they showed it to Cara Burwell and he's like, this doesn't need music. Right. They were not intending it to not have a score. And he was like, I think the best thing I can do here is not do anything.

2:09:33Ben Hosley:Right.

2:09:33David Sims:I'll write something for the end credits if you want. But like. Yeah, I didn't realize that. Yeah. There's a sustained tension from being like, why isn't this being cut by anything else?

2:09:46Leslye Headland:This episode is brought to you by Nespresso. Introducing Virtuo Up, the latest in a long line of innovation from Nespresso. It's innovation you can touch, sense, and taste in every single cup. With a three-second start, easy open lever, and dedicated brew over ice button, it's even easier to enjoy your coffee your way. Sip for yourself. Shop Virtuo Up exclusively at Nespresso.com.

2:10:12Ben Hosley:We all have that dream trip we've been wishing we could go on. But too often, life, or usually price, gets in the way. That's why Priceline is here to help you turn your dream trip into reality. With up to 60 % off hotels and up to 50 % off flights, you can book everything you need for your next adventure. Don't just dream about that next trip. Book it with Priceline.

2:10:34Leslye Headland:Download the Priceline app or visit Priceline.com and book your next trip today.

2:10:39Griffin Newman:Go to your happy price. Priceline. No country for old men. what do we want to say about it that we haven't been saying already

2:10:48David Sims:we've gone for two hours you're talking about the ethnic ambiguity of Shigur as a character right? right there's something in hiring a Spaniard in a western set in Texas and then basically giving him like Tim Burton makeup on top of how weird his styling is in the hair and the outfit and everything yeah and just being like man this guy's wearing a lot of dark colors for like brutal sun

2:11:14Ben Hosley:It's very true.

2:11:15David Sims:I'm like looking at an image on my iPad right here and you're like, they like pancake him with paleness. Right. On top of his natural skin tone and then this like deep redness around his eyes and his lips. Oh, I didn't even think about that. Yeah. That also makes it feel like, is this guy a ghost?

2:11:31Ben Hosley:Like, how is he not getting sunburned? That's true. Yeah. There is this like otherworldly thing to him, which we've already talked about. But I think like in terms of the rest of the narrative, which I think we're, you know, going to chat about now is like hopefully. No, but meaning like I think, you know, there has been this online debate idea that Chigurh is, you know, Satan is the is the personication is Joe Black. You know, it's like the personication of Jeff. Sure. Jeff. Or Jeff. Jeff, you know, you guys, please make that the title of this personification of Jeff. Yes.

2:12:09David Sims:I go back and forth every time I watch this and whether I think. He is, if not supernatural, at least explicitly kind of allegorical. I would agree with that. Actually meant to be processed as a real human being.

2:12:27Ben Hosley:I think the ending says human being. And I agree with you that it's allegorical. Yes. It's somehow holding both simultaneously.

2:12:35Griffin Newman:Like, Chigurh, here's my thing. The movie begins with him getting arrested and strangling the deputy. The deputy, like, sits him down. And, like, you know, so, right, the big thing in this movie is, like, this country, it's just not for old men anymore, if that makes sense. That's kind of the big take. It's Tommy Lee Jones basically just brushing against evil or whatever, but also just brushing against a world where he's just like, I don't know where to begin with this. I don't know how to this isn't like crime like that sheriffs deal with where it's like hey why'd you do that to that guy well he stole my alright well you can't do that

2:13:12Leslye Headland:he even shares that his grandfather and his father were both sheriffs and they used to not even wear a gun

2:13:18Griffin Newman:right like that it's like you and like everything about Tommy Lee Jones' character it's like he knows everybody this can be reason he knows everybody he knows everyone's name like you know when he's at the diner he knows the name of the waitress when he sees Llewellyn's car he's like I know this car this is Llewellyn's car I'm like bitch you must he must be in charge of like a thousand acres of land like it's like deep south Texas like you know but nonetheless like he's whatever you know he's like basically trying to sort of like keep an eye on the community right he has the line the exchange

2:13:49David Sims:with Garrett Dillahunt I think it's when they go to the first crime scene and he goes so it seems like they died of natural causes and Garrett Dillahunt says like there are like 40 gunshots here and he goes well natural in relation to the line of work they were in right right the idea that this guy is like not numb but it's like he's seen it all but the the great line that i think is in the trailer where

2:14:10Griffin Newman:like dylan's like do you think he's got any notion of the sort of people are chasing him he's like he ought to he's seen the same things i have hey it's certainly an impression on me but this guy is

2:14:20David Sims:increasingly going like this is not something i understand there's something happening here that feels like emblematic of a cultural.

2:14:31Ben Hosley:Yeah. I do think we need to keep moving forward, obviously, but in the book, it's very, it's explained later on that he's a veteran. Right. So in a way saying like this level of violence, I can't understand. I'm a little bit like, but you can, you know, like he can,

2:14:46Griffin Newman:but it's also something he's so haunted by. Yes. Right. And the desertion and all of that. And he's just like, and right in the book, there's this specific memory he has of this territory. thing that happened during the war and like but in this it's just like what happened uh but we don't even know but like a drug deal was going to happen and something went wrong we don't know what right shootout that and they all murdered each other hunting leaving behind an incredible amount of drugs yes and a bag array of guns yes quite a lot of guns yeah um and it's one of those things that like no one is even nobody cares that this happened no that makes sense yes everyone is basically like basically some version of a cost of doing business thing right you know natural causes right yeah and Llewellyn is foolish enough to try to skim the money yes and but like it's like you don't feel like Sheriff Bell is like I'll solve this yeah right like he almost immediately he's basically just like I know Llewellyn's gonna die I'm gonna try and find him I think

2:15:51David Sims:I think Brolin's first line of dialogue in the movie is he's, you know, slowly surveying the situation. He finds the dying guy. He finds the bag. He's sitting down at the tree next to this dying guy. Or no, that guy's fully dead. Right. Yes. Oh, yeah. And he opens the bag. He sees the money. He lifts his head up and then he goes, yeah. And it's such a good piece of writing that this guy is like, of course, it's a bag of money.

2:16:14Ben Hosley:Brolin claims that he improvised that.

2:16:16David Sims:That rocks. That makes sense. Good for him. And then similarly, when he wakes up in the middle of the night and it's like, yeah.

2:16:21Ben Hosley:Yeah.

2:16:21David Sims:You know, to go get the water. This guy's kind of silently in this monosyllabic conversation with himself. Yes. About like, of course, I got to do this. Of course, this is what would happen.

2:16:32Ben Hosley:Yeah.

2:16:32David Sims:I think as you're saying, this is the kind of thing that Tommy Lee Jones has seen before. What's what's activating him isn't I've never seen this level of violence before. It's this doesn't make sense to me. Well, I think I think that there's this clash internally between Chigurh is killing so many people he doesn't need to kill. Right.

2:16:52Ben Hosley:Yes.

2:16:53David Sims:And it's like he's trying to Tom Lee Jones is trying to solve this as a guy trying to clean up loose ends of a crime gone wrong. And yet Chigurh is also kind of behaving like a serial killer. Yes, he is. And it's like if a guy is a professional, why would he be this sloppy? Yeah. I think that's sort of what is unspoken of like, it doesn't make sense the level and nature of the violence that is unnecessary.

2:17:17Griffin Newman:Right. And like the Woody Harrelson character who shows up later feels like a more old school, whatever you want to call it, contract killer, fixer, whatever. Right. Where he tries to solve the problem of being like, can we just fucking figure this out? Right. Can we be gentlemen about murder? murder you know like let's get over it yeah sugar seems to have some weird you know like you know code in his brain yes because like why does he kill kelly mcdonald he doesn't well he say he just said that he was going to he claims that he told llewellyn that he was going to right but it's like like obviously the money is not a problem anymore no he doesn't fucking know anything yeah

2:17:57David Sims:no and so like he has to go out of his way to do it so many of the people he cattle guns he doesn't need to kill them in order to get what he needs out of them. And then there are other people. They're not stopping him.

2:18:08Griffin Newman:But then there are other people that he lets live. Yes. And one time he flips a coin, but other times he just clearly has this moment of like, yeah, I mean, whatever.

2:18:16Leslye Headland:There's this woman in the hotel where he tries to get information. She's like this great, like. Love her.

2:18:22Griffin Newman:Great character. She's like perfect. She looks like she's like painted into the floor. You know what I mean?

2:18:28Leslye Headland:She's just this like, she just sort of swivels around. Like she's like a costume character in a theme park. I was going to say she's an electronic robot that can't stand up. Yeah. But she's almost. I'm not giving out information. She's almost like intimidating like him in this weird way. Yes. And he almost respects her.

2:18:45Griffin Newman:Yes. I think he fully respects her. He's like, of course I could kill this woman, but that actually might be a problem.

2:18:50Ben Hosley:Did you not hear what I said? I think, too, that she's, you know, it's when, I don't know. You guys, I don't know physics. I didn't know we were going to have to. I don't know. But it's like, you know, force meets a movable object. Yes. Yes. So in a way, like scientifically, he can't continue. I mean, Gene sort of folds right away. Right. He's just like, you know, and she's like, get the fuck out of here.

2:19:12David Sims:Which like disarms him that Gene doesn't have more pride or defensiveness.

2:19:16Ben Hosley:Yeah, that's true.

2:19:17Griffin Newman:Chigurh, we don't even know who hires him, but we assume it's one of the cartel. Sure. And I assume the other cartel or someone else is the people who've hired the various Mexican gangsters that eventually do kill Llewellyn. Sure. Like, I don't think they're in league.

2:19:31Leslye Headland:maybe they are I have no idea Chigurh gets the money well there's also the Stephen Root Harrelson contender

2:19:37Griffin Newman:they right I don't know who they I have no clue they mentioned someone mentions like did you hire a bunch of Mexican gangsters and like they're like yeah so like I guess this is like and Chigurh is like I am the instrument for this you know what I mean like he has and he does get the money which I guess is the goal right that's the fundamental thing that's wanted of him he's the only person who figures out that it's in the duct right this all happens off screen essentially but that is what happens which another fucking

2:20:07David Sims:great shot of him not necessary yes the the trails in the dust in the vent of the fingers yes i love that talking for later that's where he hides it oh god yeah the whole thing like the

2:20:20Ben Hosley:tent poles and stuff it's just exactly what you said it's like you learn about the characters by

2:20:24Griffin Newman:what they're doing yeah you know yeah that's well right exactly he's an idiot for going back with the

2:20:30Ben Hosley:water. But God, that vent thing was smart. And you establish earlier...

2:20:34Griffin Newman:He has practical... Right. Because he's like a welder, which they don't really establish in this. Yes.

2:20:38David Sims:But like that is...

2:20:39Ben Hosley:Oh, yes. Yeah. Yeah.

2:20:40David Sims:You establish earlier that Llewellyn's... Not Llewellyn. Sugar is going to use the coins for the screws on the vent so that later you can just cut to a shot of coins on a desk table.

2:20:51Ben Hosley:Yeah.

2:20:51David Sims:And know what it means. Like that's the shit in this movie that when I was 18, I was like, holy fucking shit filmmaking! Where you can like build up a language where then like 40 minutes later you cut to an insert shot of inanimate object and go like, I understand exactly what just happened in the last 20 minutes without a line of dialogue. Oh God.

2:21:10Griffin Newman:Yeah. So right, like Llewellyn, he's kind of stupid for going back with the, he's stupid to take the money to, I would say. He doesn't really. Opportunity knocks. I know, but he takes the bag and he doesn't think that hard about it. He probably should search the bag or get the money out of the bag and put it in something else. Or dump it out and make it rain. It's like, there's like 20 dead people. There's not like two dead people. No, there's a lot. There's so many vehicles. There's a lot. And so he, like, clearly he's kind of overwhelmed by it, which I would be too. He's like, I'm just going to go home and maybe like, you know, fuck my wife.

2:21:50Griffin Newman:But also not fuck my wife.

2:21:52David Sims:Make a joke about fucking my wife. I think he fucks her.

2:21:54Ben Hosley:I think he definitely fucks her. Hand stuff?

2:21:57David Sims:Interesting.

2:21:57Ben Hosley:I also think I mean her face I think says it all at the she's like you know got that little smile

2:22:03David Sims:but I view that as her being disappointed that he's not going to follow through on what he's saying I think he's gonna I think he does um we're moving on I think unlike a lot of Cohen idiots who get in over their head and refuse to acknowledge it right he's constantly feeling the pressure of right am I in too deep right yeah versus these guys who are just like I'm gonna to get this right i'm gonna make this all work and it also is a guy lives in a trailer but he is not set up with a pressure like say uh fucking william h macy and fargo where it's like this guy needs the money no now where it's right he could still live like this story right yeah it's the sense of opportunity but it's not a like i can't turn this down yeah uh or at least that is not explicitly said to us, which also makes it this game for him of like, is this worth the squeeze?

2:22:58Ben Hosley:I actually didn't realize like how similar he is to other until you just said that. Like even Lebowski. It's like I'm getting pulled into a thing. I don't know. I just wanted my rug back.

2:23:09David Sims:Yeah, that's really interesting. I think they love when it's a confident moron, which he isn't quite. He's like not the smartest guy, but he's smarter than a lot of their protagonists. and he also is more scared than a lot of their protagonists, right? Even though he is a fairly stoic man, you're feeling the tension of him in his situation not knowing if he's going to be able to pull this off.

2:23:36Ben Hosley:He doesn't pull it off, by the way.

2:23:37David Sims:He pulls the screws tightening.

2:23:38Ben Hosley:Yeah, by the way, just spoiler. He does die. When they sick the dog on him and he's swimming through the thing and then he shoots him, that was the kind of what you were saying about the tracks being, that was the moment for me. Yes. where I was like masterful. Like as the sun's coming up, all of that is timed so that by the time he shoots the dog,

2:23:58Leslye Headland:it's just like exquisite. Unload the final bullet. Get fucking loaded back.

2:24:04Griffin Newman:Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. Beautiful.

2:24:07David Sims:You saying that TLJ's character is coded as a veteran. It's also interesting that Brolin is as well, but in like wildly different wars. Yes. Brolin served in Nam, TLJ served in World War II. Right. So they both have a certain mentality and instincts and resources that come out of that experience, but in like wildly different situations that would have formed their role.

2:24:33Griffin Newman:Tommy Lee Jones is also part of a quote unquote righteous war. Exactly. Like fought against evil. And Josh Brolin is like, I was sent to a terrible place where I suffered. To what end? The experience. Right now I'm in a trailer. Right.

2:24:44Leslye Headland:Yes.

2:24:45Griffin Newman:Right. And, you know, I came back and everyone thought that sucked. I mean, there's a moment, obviously, where he has the bond with the other non-veteran who, like, lets him go through because he's like— Oh, great scene.

2:24:55David Sims:Who doesn't want to let him through because he's worried he's a Mexican. Right. And then he's basically able to flash the non-veteran thing. Right. Yeah. Wish I could do that.

2:25:03Ben Hosley:In the book, he says— Just in a cool movie way. In the book, he says, you can't go to war like that about Vietnam. You can't go to war without God. I don't know what is going to happen when the next one comes. I surely don't.

2:25:14David Sims:It's a guy who just quietly is sort of like, world doesn't really make sense. And I kind of got a shitty hand without being self-pitying.

2:25:21Ben Hosley:Yeah.

2:25:22David Sims:Which is why I think he sees a bag of money. And it's like, not don't I deserve this?

2:25:27Ben Hosley:No. Yeah.

2:25:29David Sims:But like, is there any reason for me not to try it?

2:25:33Leslye Headland:Right. Right. And even knowing the inherent risk.

2:25:36Griffin Newman:That's the Ben feeling. Yeah. I don't know. Give it a whirl. Give it a whirl. Why not? But I would, of course, then say that I have to sugar.

2:25:43Leslye Headland:And then he ended up dead

2:25:44Griffin Newman:Yeah he does die I'm so sorry here's the money back That's what you would say I'm so sorry here's the money back I'm really really sorry I wanted the money because there's so much money And it's all in just one little bag And it's$100 bills I so wanted it so desperately

2:25:58Leslye Headland:So I could use it to buy things and such Perhaps you understand I like goods and services

2:26:02Griffin Newman:I say Tunchikur is like let me just unscrew my little My oxygen tank And I'm like you see the money you can buy

2:26:09David Sims:Food, toys, clothes I mean there's so many things The way Chigurh is set up from the beginning of the movie, you're like giving him the money back wouldn't solve anything.

2:26:16Ben Hosley:Yeah, it wouldn't. And you already know that.

2:26:18Griffin Newman:And like, here is a man who you could not buy off for any amount.

2:26:23Leslye Headland:Right.

2:26:23Griffin Newman:You couldn't say to him, hey, I'll give you the money back plus 10 million. What he tries.

2:26:26Leslye Headland:He's like, wouldn't you rather just we split it rather than whatever they're paying you. Right. And he's like, that's not how I like to live my life.

2:26:34Ben Hosley:He's like, it's not going to happen.

2:26:36Griffin Newman:What I like to do is have the biggest silencer you ever saw and put it on a fucking shotgun. Right.

2:26:43Ben Hosley:The silencer with the shotgun is also like a great story because not unlike the lightsaber story, it's like you have to create that. You know, there are like silencers for shotguns like it's fucking hanging out. Yes.

2:26:58Griffin Newman:But it rocks. My favorite kill in the movie is shooting the guy behind the shower curtain. I just like shooting someone where it's such a fucking big gun that like it's like, you know, like the shower curtain goes like, whoop. Yeah.

2:27:12David Sims:But also the cattle gun is kind of ingenious because the first couple scenes they survey, they're just like, what do you mean there's no bullet? Right. Right. There's this bizarreness that they start to figure out through like the damage created in other spaces of like, oh, it is kind of a perfect weapon.

2:27:27Ben Hosley:He also never uses it on screen.

2:27:29Leslye Headland:He used it once. The guy at the start. The very beginning.

2:27:32Ben Hosley:Yeah. No, no, that's what I mean. But after that. But yeah, besides that guy.

2:27:35Griffin Newman:The only issue with it is that you have to—

2:27:36Ben Hosley:But it's hanging over the movie the whole time. And he's carrying it most like him. You've got to carry around this fucking thing. It's a fucking oxygen tank. Right. Right.

2:27:43Griffin Newman:Right, right, right. I mean, look, he's a bit extra not to drag him. I mean, like, for example, when he needs to get some bandages, he explodes an entire car to distract people. Sure.

2:27:56Leslye Headland:Well, he's stealing from the pharmacy.

2:27:58Griffin Newman:Oh, I understand. Yeah, and I just feel like there's other ways to approach that of like maybe I'll steal some money or maybe I'll like, you know what I mean? And he's like, blow up this card.

2:28:08David Sims:But isn't that what's kind of breaking Tommy Lee Jones is like, I don't understand when this guy is using a scalpel and when he's using a machete because he does both. Sometimes it feels so strategic and thoughtful and sometimes it is so fucking messy. He is perhaps just a messy bitch who lives through the drama. He's actually, that's what he is.

2:28:27Leslye Headland:And he is having a brat summer, of course. Can we talk about the milk?

2:28:33Griffin Newman:Yeah. He goes to Llewellyn's trailer. He blows the bloody bolt off, you know. Thunk walks around. Nothing in there. Sits down. Jug of milk. In case you weren't sure he was a psycho. Another great Deacon shot. Yes.

2:28:47David Sims:He sits there with the jug of milk. He's sitting motionless. He hasn't even taken a sip yet. And then it cuts to the reverse shot, which is his reflection in the television.

2:28:57Griffin Newman:And then we see it again with Tommy Lee Jones. And it is an interesting moment where Sheriff Bell is clearly like, he looked at himself in this mirror. He's putting himself in the shoes of the guy. And he's just kind of like, I wonder.

2:29:09David Sims:Because in that Chagurh moment, you're like, what is he doing? Why is he just sitting here with a jug of milk, not watching TV? I think his brain's just going, you know?

2:29:18Griffin Newman:Yeah. I think he's just rebooting. Yeah. It does feel like it. Like, what's the next target? But I think they just wisely avoid the Terminator thing. there's moments like him blowing up the car with you know walking with the explosion behind him like right he's like a robot but not always

2:29:32Leslye Headland:and he's not indestructible

2:29:34David Sims:they throw it off the hump with his look they're always finding ways to stop him from feeling yes completely T-800 um yeah

2:29:43Leslye Headland:and he's not invulnerable as you said here's my take

2:29:45Griffin Newman:you just give me a crack

2:29:47Leslye Headland:at the Terminator franchise now what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna I'm gonna use Terminator 2 as my jumping off well make a sequel to that one I know we were talking about how it's hard to please Star Wars fans, but Terminator, I think we can figure it out. It's David Cross in Arrested Development

2:30:01Griffin Newman:talking about non-monogamy. He's like,

2:30:02Leslye Headland:it could work for us.

2:30:04Griffin Newman:I'm just like, the sixth time.

2:30:06David Sims:Guys, if we just commit to not leaving this room for 45 minutes, I think we can walk out of here with me.

2:30:12Leslye Headland:It's 45 and we're done. And we're done. Here's my take. Arnie's in it. We'll figure out how. Okay, that sounds good.

2:30:18Griffin Newman:Playing a Terminator. Here's a bag of money. And there'll be a new Terminator. And what will his vibe be?

2:30:23Leslye Headland:I don't know. He's Bugs or something? We'll figure that out. later.

2:30:26David Sims:His vibe is something other than Arnold.

2:30:30Leslye Headland:Has anyone done Liquid?

2:30:32Griffin Newman:Oh, yeah, somebody did that one. What if he's a gas Terminator? No one's done gas. Yeah.

2:30:37David Sims:Who's playing John Connor? Someone.

2:30:41Griffin Newman:Who's an okay actor who nobody really cares about? Let's get that guy.

2:30:46Ben Hosley:Ryan Phillippe.

2:30:49Griffin Newman:God, I was... Talk about someone zero people would be excited about. What did I just watch? Oh, I know what you did last summer. I never seen it before.

2:30:57Leslye Headland:He was a fucking filet back then. He was a piece of meat. He was, but also that movie is... Oh, he's an asshole.

2:31:02David Sims:Want to meet the most repellent thing you've ever seen.

2:31:05Griffin Newman:But then he gets eaten by crabs.

2:31:06David Sims:Yeah. Great stuff. You have not seen the new one, right? I have not. It is funny how they're just like, we're just not even going to invoke him, basically. Oh, yeah, he doesn't come up? No, it's like Prince and Love Hewitt are in it. Right. And Geller is like very much part of...

2:31:22Griffin Newman:I have. Is Prince still a fisherman? My favorite thing about those two movies is that Freddie Prinze Jr. plays a working fisherman in those movies. Okay, mild spoilers. He's like, I gotta go fish. I'm like, you have never,

2:31:36Leslye Headland:you don't know what a fish is.

2:31:37David Sims:Mild spoilers? Uh-huh. He owns a, like, fisherman's bar. Okay. I think it is implied that he still fishes, but the primary business seems to be. But he's like a commercial fisherman. That is so good to know for canon. Yes.

2:31:49Ben Hosley:Yeah.

2:31:50David Sims:He still has a boat. he still seems to fish. Good, good. But it feels like the town has become very touristy and he now runs like the locals bar that has the fishing ephemera in it. And the Billy Blue side of the boat is hung up above the bar. Prince looks pretty fucking fantastic. He's aged really nicely. He has aged. Yeah, he's a good looking guy. Beautifully. Yeah. There was a little, I've been like watching it and I'm like, did Prince have like a Brolin moment?

2:32:18Leslye Headland:He's not that good an actor.

2:32:19David Sims:He's not that good and yet I was watching

2:32:21Leslye Headland:I was watching it and I was like, someone could cast him really well. Yeah. He kind of works in this. But Coen, brother. He's an iconic Star Wars character. Yes. He's Kanan Jarrus. Yeah. He's very good in that show. Okay.

2:32:37Ben Hosley:He's a good voice actor. He has a really, sorry, we'll go off this in a second, but there's that video of him, David. Talking about Star Wars. Talking about Star Wars.

2:32:47Griffin Newman:He loves Star Wars. Yeah. He has a really great take on it. He's a big nerd. He was fun on one of the Mass Effect games, too. He's a good voice actor.

2:32:53Leslye Headland:What were you going to say, Ben?

2:32:54Griffin Newman:I have a question about the motel where he hides.

2:32:57Leslye Headland:It's just, this is like no country for old men, you know, Ben? Yeah, that's what the movie's about. Oh, sure.

2:33:01Griffin Newman:Okay, the motel where he hides it in a duct, and then he rents another room that's connected to the duct. But he gets found out, right? Yes.

2:33:08Leslye Headland:Because he sees that the curtain has been moved. Right. I'm assuming that's the Mexican... Yes, whoever's looking for it. Right. Like the other party trying to track him down. Do they have the device or are they just figuring out that he's there? That's a good question. I've never been able to like determine. Because Chigurh obviously has the receiver.

2:33:34David Sims:Right. For the track.

2:33:35Ben Hosley:Oh, right, right. Right.

2:33:36David Sims:I don't think they would have one as well. They're maybe tracking Chigurh. They might be following his trail. Yeah.

2:33:44Ben Hosley:I mean, is the scene with the suits, the scene with the suits is after that? Or just meaning, I wonder if that answers your question. Because if he's, I think it is. I think that we see, I think we see suits before that. Suits have a tracker. I wonder if Mexicans also have a.

2:34:05Griffin Newman:Oh, sure. Because they're two separate. They might, I think there's some dialogue that alludes to this. Yeah.

2:34:11Leslye Headland:but they also could have talked to that another great just random character the woman that runs that motel maybe they went in and talked to her as anyone got in a room kind of thing

2:34:24Ben Hosley:yeah it could be that simple

2:34:26Leslye Headland:there's the moment when he's doing the

2:34:29David Sims:air duct trick for the first time and he's sitting in the room with the gun loaded waiting for him with the lights off right and he sees the shadow of the footsteps underneath. He's hearing it and he's seeing it and he's seeing him continue to walk. But before that moment, when he's hearing the steps off into the distance, he calls. You're like, why the fuck is he picking up the phone? He calls the front desk, hears the deadline, and then hangs up. And it's just like, the guy's smart enough to know. I've studied this guy's behavior. He's killing the woman at the front desk. If he's already here, she's dead.

2:35:09David Sims:Right. Yeah.

2:35:10Ben Hosley:There's just stuff like that I love. I love it too. I feel like he hasn't encountered Sugar at that point. So there is this like anticipation too with the audience of like, here we go. Right. Here we go.

2:35:23Leslye Headland:They never. They shoot at each other. Yes. But they don't really interact. It's after that scene is.

2:35:29David Sims:Right.

2:35:30Leslye Headland:Yes.

2:35:31David Sims:But they're always quite far from each other.

2:35:34Griffin Newman:They talk on the phone though. Yep. And then after he talks to Sugar, he talks to Harrelson and he's like, you talk too much. Yeah. Yeah. Which is kind of funny. But yeah, he does. And Sugar does not get him. I mean, it's just so funny. I'm sorry to keep hitting that point. We just don't get that weird satisfaction. We don't get the defeat of Sugar, obviously.

2:35:54Ben Hosley:It is a great shootout, man. It is. And really too smart. You know, for all of his stupidity, he is a smart guy when he's driving that truck. And he's watching the bullet holes. And he's smart.

2:36:07David Sims:the rear view mirror and everything.

2:36:09Ben Hosley:Yeah.

2:36:10David Sims:Yes. And just the way they build the tension with the increasing amount of bullet holes around him. But you can never quite track where Chigurh is. You can track the trajectory of the gun.

2:36:23Ben Hosley:Yeah.

2:36:23David Sims:But you're never like seeing him, you know?

2:36:25Ben Hosley:You don't get into his, I think if I'm remembering correctly, you don't really get into his POV. I don't think so. And so therefore it is also a subversion of a hero versus villain. Because usually you'd pop over to villain and then you pop over to your, you know.

2:36:39Griffin Newman:Instead, Llewellyn dies and Chigurh sort of, you know, completes his mission and moves on wounded. And then Tom Bell sits down with his dad. I believe so. Played by the great Barry Corbin. Yes. Who is an actor I mostly think of as playing like yeehaw Texas guys. he was on northern exposure it's great on northern exposure uh but like he would just like he was the guy who could swing in wearing a cowboy hat in her tv show being like well from jexus you know and he's good at his shorthand this he's like pretty you know uh like calm and quiet beaten down and awesome yeah and then tom just tells his wife about some stories some dreams he had and then he woke up and it cuts to black and i just remember my audience being like what what what the fuck are you talking about?

2:37:32Griffin Newman:That's it. Right. They're already... I didn't even know he was done.

2:37:35David Sims:Was he... He's done? He's done talking? When Llewellyn dies, it feels like, okay, so I guess I was wrong, but the movie is building to a showdown between Tommy Lee Jones and Bardem, right? Right, right, right, right. Yeah. And then you're like, no, it's ending on the guy's dream and it feels like he's sort of like hanging mid-sentence. Yeah. Tess Harper, who is so goodness. Yeah. Yeah. With just a few moments from Tender Mercy's, one of my favorite movies. She's so great.

2:38:01Griffin Newman:And they also off screen do a lot of hand stuff, I will say, in the film.

2:38:05David Sims:I have no doubt they're fucking. They have a very happy physical.

2:38:11Griffin Newman:They've got a great relationship. I just love it that she's like, oh, great dream.

2:38:16David Sims:Want to do some hand stuff? So when you're saying the masterpiece personal question, right? And part of it is that when you're posing that. And part of it is that this is something they don't originate. It is something they are assigned to. It is something they connect with.

2:38:32Ben Hosley:And yeah, like I said, because, you know, so much of the dialogue is Cormac McCarthy and not them. It does feel like this is the this is the film of just, you know, we are master filmmakers. Right.

2:38:43David Sims:And is it just like skillful interpretation of someone else's voice? I do think this movie kind of in its sparseness and in a way they maybe couldn't do if they were writing it themselves from scratch identifies some key through line in their worldview that certainly is reflected in all their films. and when people, especially the early parts of their career, would attack them for being kind of like nasty, cynical, just like setting up idiots to be punished, you know, in like a cool and kind of merciless world. Yeah. I do think there is this thing of like, are they just nihilist? Does none of this matter to them?

2:39:25David Sims:They make these movies that are touching on this kind of darkness, and I do think this movie is kind of their retort. There's a reason why I think... Fargo, if not their masterpiece, is their definitive film because it is the ultimate balancing of everything they do. Right. Yeah. But part of what makes Fargo so powerful is that they're placing this like undeniable figure of good at the center of it who is cutting through this. Yes.

2:39:52Griffin Newman:And sort of is that. But he's so, so tired.

2:39:55David Sims:Right. And he's not going to fix it. Marge is someone whose life lies ahead of her. She's about to have a child. There's a new exciting chapter that's unfolding. Yeah. He just got the stamp, right? Yes. There's all this sort of shit. And she is sort of like comically good. The movie has that lightness. She is comically. Yeah. Yes. Even as dark as moments, it's funny.

2:40:15Ben Hosley:Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I would agree.

2:40:17David Sims:Her goodness is funny. Yeah. And so it is, if not obscuring their real feelings, I think it was adding to this sense of, are they just playing with toys? Right? Yes.

2:40:32Ben Hosley:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

2:40:32David Sims:How much of this is just like genre riffs for them? Is just them.

2:40:35Ben Hosley:Yes.

2:40:36David Sims:In them doing this stripped down, like subversive kind of genre deconstruction. Right. They're doing a more focused version of the kind of thing at the center. I would agree with that. Fargo.

2:40:52Ben Hosley:That's something I think that I've learned in doing this with you guys. They're re-expressing something. They're re-expressing something and they're doing, yes, the pinnacle of what they do. Right. And because they can't rely on witty dialogue. Yes. And, you know, like you said, a character like Marge that will just like cut through all the bullshit. Yeah, I would say I would go so far as to say it's a masterpiece because if I use the criteria of the ending of the movie, it did leave me like, you know, Mulholland Driver Zodiac, where I was like, wow.

2:41:28David Sims:And also kind of twinned with the ending of Fargo that also comes back to a couple having a conversation. Yes.

2:41:34Ben Hosley:Right?

2:41:35David Sims:In their comfortable domesticity. Yeah. But for him, it's like this moment of extreme vulnerability. It feels like Tommy Lee Jones is transparent in this final scene. He's incredible. There is like an understated sense of deep sadness and him feeling unmoored and vulnerability in him even sharing this with her. that the scariest thing he could do is ever share his abstract thoughts that he has not been able to untangle yet, even to the person closest in his life in what seems to be a very healthy marriage, right?

2:42:10Ben Hosley:Absolutely.

2:42:10David Sims:And it's sort of this sense of like, unlike Fargo, this is not a universe in which Marge is able to stop the evil, right? Obviously, as she puts it, all that for a little bit of money. She didn't stop it in time. A lot of damage was -

2:42:27Ben Hosley:Was done.

2:42:27David Sims:was done many people died but ultimately like there was some sense of justice at some point yes she gets to look at peter stormara the back of the car and say and for what a little bit of money a little bit at least hopes that that stays in his head versus here the fact that the three people never meet you kind of come back to tommy lee jones being like to what end yeah and you're

2:42:50Ben Hosley:right the the villain you know uh stormar in fargo is kind of the prototype for sugar you're right because you know just you know terminator-esque has his own code it's not really even about the trajectory of what he's planned to do um but then in that film he gets you know his kebab comeuppance or whatever and in this film you know you just you don't know the fate of this guy

2:43:16David Sims:Right. And in the dreams that Tommy Lee Jones is having, I think he's trying to reckon with these cycles of the stories we tell ourselves of like lawmen and bad guys.

2:43:29Ben Hosley:Yeah.

2:43:30David Sims:In a kind of idea of an American West where these things can balance themselves out. And he's just sort of like, are we moving into a realm where for better or worse, we don't fit into the model anymore? And then who am I?

2:43:45Ben Hosley:Yeah. I think what's interesting, like, in terms of the thesis of the movie and sort of, I think what you take away from you, from it at the end, is that, you know, that all the characters sort of get this, like, you know, meh, you know, like, who knows, you know, he, you know, the one is dead. But I also heard that from somewhere that Tommy Lee Jones did that in one take and only did, you know, one of them and that he also did the fugitive sort of famous, you know, after the train crash speech also in one take. I'd say it just goes for one.

2:44:30David Sims:I think I go. We don't need to.

2:44:32Ben Hosley:We don't need to do this again. We get it. Like he's just he's totally embodied the character and therefore the the the I almost said lyrics, but the dialogue is just he's just speaking it.

2:44:42David Sims:You know, the final shot, his face to me is so heartbreaking where he he looks so worried at how she is going to respond and what she thinks about what he just said. Yeah, I think that.

2:44:57Ben Hosley:Yeah, sorry.

2:44:57Griffin Newman:He was like, I had the weirdest dream. Like I was in class and I had to take a test and I wasn't wearing any clothes.

2:45:04Leslye Headland:And then my teeth fell out. She's like, it has pretty standard textbook stuff. You're worried about aging.

2:45:09Ben Hosley:Yeah.

2:45:09Leslye Headland:I had the weirdest nightmare. Donald Trump became president.

2:45:14Ben Hosley:Fantasy. Don't bad mouth David Skye.

2:45:17Griffin Newman:Yeah. I'm sorry, David. This film, I'm just moving us along. Yes. Premiered at the Cannes Film Festival in 2007. I'm noting that only because it's an insane Cannes. Because No Country for Old Men is there. Zodiac is there. Stephen Frears in all his wisdom and his jury gave both of those films zero awards

2:45:38David Sims:why did I think No Country won director because the Coens

2:45:41Griffin Newman:have one director but not for that one for that one they won Bupkis and it's like four months three weeks two days won The Palm that's a good movie that's obviously a very like powerful festival film like it's oh yeah we talked about this for Zodiac

2:45:56Ben Hosley:and

2:45:57David Sims:it is an excellent impossible to imagine watching a second time movie, but if you see it at a festival out of nowhere, it hits you like a ton of bricks. But it is a little

2:46:06Griffin Newman:rude that it just went over like, it got well received. The critics liked it there, but it didn't win anything. Paramount Vantage wanted to release this in August, which is fucking crazy. They were going off of the success in the previous year of The Constant Gardener, which of course did win an Oscar.

2:46:24David Sims:We've talked about this sort of like August sort of Labor Day-esque like focus features adult thriller slot where you could have like kind of a modest counter program success.

2:46:36Ben Hosley:Yes, that's true.

2:46:37Griffin Newman:But this movie is not quite that. Right. The Coens, perhaps wisely, felt strongly about releasing this film in the fall. Yeah. Came out in November and was their biggest hit of the moment. True Grid eclipses it, but it made$74 million domestic and$171 worldwide. Wow. And it won Best Picture at the Academy Awards. I don't know if you know. Director, screenplay, supporting actor. That's right. It lost for sound editing,

2:47:04Leslye Headland:sound mixing, cinematography, and editing. I watched the three speeches

2:47:10David Sims:this morning.

2:47:12Griffin Newman:Their speeches.

2:47:13David Sims:Joel tells the story that's very funny about, or no, for screenplay, he says the Cormac McCarthy and Homer thing, right? Yeah. And then Ethan gets up and he goes like, uh, I, uh, thank you. and he walks off stage and then when they win Best Director Joel tells the story about them growing up making movies together and how it feels crazy that their life doesn't feel different from when they were 10 in the back together we're happy

2:47:38Griffin Newman:you let us play in this little sandbox exactly thank you for letting us

2:47:41David Sims:have our corner of the sandbox and then Ethan gets up and goes I think uh no basically said everything I needed to say last time thank you it's a perfect bit yeah and then of course when they win Best Picture they say nothing Scott Rudin pops the entire

2:47:56Griffin Newman:gets on his head and revolves around or whatever. Yeah. Scott Rudin throws cheese strings from the stage. This film, Griffin, came out November 9th, 2007. Yeah. Limited, so it's opening number 15, a robust$43 ,000 screen average, though. Number one at the box office is sort of the No Country for Old Men of animated films, though. And it's second week at the box office. I'm joking. It is called Bee Movie? That's right. It's Jerry Seinfeld's Bee Movie. My God. Now, have you seen Bee Movie?

2:48:24David Sims:I have not.

2:48:24Griffin Newman:He's a bee. He's a bee.

2:48:25David Sims:It's kind of a movie about an old man who doesn't understand it is no longer his country. Oh, my God.

2:48:31Griffin Newman:That's sort of slowly what Jerry Seinfeld's last 25 years have been about.

2:48:35Ben Hosley:Oh, my God. I'm just imagining. Yes, exactly. Yes. Yeah.

2:48:38David Sims:I'm just imagining the last scene of No Country with Jerry Seinfeld and his wife.

2:48:42Ben Hosley:No old man. This country.

2:48:43Leslye Headland:Not for old men.

2:48:43David Sims:Just very quietly going, what's the deal?

2:48:46Leslye Headland:That's pretty good.

2:48:47David Sims:With an old man.

2:48:50Griffin Newman:Number two at the box office is a film that I think was widely tipped as a major Oscar player. American Gangster? Right. Did well. Yeah. Is not bad, but certainly underwhelmed on that front.

2:49:01David Sims:Got only the one nomination for

2:49:03Griffin Newman:Ruby Dee? I think it might have gotten like a costume nod, but yes, essentially.

2:49:06Leslye Headland:But not a bad movie. Not a bad movie. Pretty rewatchable.

2:49:09David Sims:It was just on paper you were like, this is going to be the greatest shit of all time.

2:49:14Ben Hosley:This is it. Yeah.

2:49:14David Sims:Yeah.

2:49:15Ben Hosley:Well, also it's the year after The Departed, so it makes sense. It was.

2:49:19Griffin Newman:Number three at the box office. New this week. I think very unhappy for the studio that this is opening number three. Okay. It's a comedy, high concept comedy.

2:49:29David Sims:November 2007. What studio released this picture? Warner Bros. Warner Bros. It is not Fred Claus, is it?

2:49:39Leslye Headland:It is, unfortunately. Vince Vaughn's Fred Claus. One of the most repellent films I've ever seen. A film that actually embodies pure evil. Right.

2:49:49Griffin Newman:Now, I remember, of course, this is when I was an intern at People Magazine because I covered the B-movie red carpet in London. I worked in London. I covered the red carpet for this film. I've talked about it a lot on this podcast over the years. This is a huge flop. Opening new at number four. Drama. Serious drama. Oh, you're saying this movie is The Kingdom? Yes, I did not cover the red carpet for Fred Claus. I did for The Kingdom, but that's not what we're talking about.

2:50:15David Sims:But this is Lions for Lambs?

2:50:16Griffin Newman:Lions for Lambs! Oh. Where it's just like everyone's in a room going like, but the war! Is it good? We don't know. Yes. I've never seen lines for lamps. No, I haven't. I covered the red carpet.

2:50:27David Sims:That is the fundamental yes or no question of our time.

2:50:31Leslye Headland:No, it's that thing of like.

2:50:33David Sims:Tom Cruise, Meryl Streep, Robert Redford. The Cruise implosion. Right. Summer Redstone says we're ending our deal with him at Paramount. And then the big buzzy announcement is United Artists is being handed over to Tom Cruise. It is going to be his studio. He gets to make what he wants. and the first move was, I'm going to play supporting in a Robert Redford talkie drama. And it felt like, is this the next phase of his career? Right. Is he not interested in being like action star, movie star anymore? Yeah. And right after this,

2:51:05Ben Hosley:he pivots so far away from that. And this is like the couch jumping era. This is a mess. The immediate post-couch jump.

2:51:13David Sims:Everyone's a little sick of talking. How do I reset? Yes. And then his second UA movie is Valkyrie, where he finds Macquarie and that sets the next 20 years of his career

2:51:23Griffin Newman:number 5 of the box office Griffin is a film that matters very much to you and I not as a film but as a thing we used to say to each other and you would say it to a lot of people a line from this film

2:51:35David Sims:put it on my tab what's the film called it is one of the great breakfast starch movie posters of all time that's right

2:51:47Leslye Headland:it is called Dan in Real Life the Steve Carell film Dan in real life have you seen it Leslie I have not

2:51:52Ben Hosley:it's got one of the most

2:51:54Leslye Headland:weirdly photoshopped posters of all time

2:51:56Ben Hosley:that I know the poster of his face sitting on a second pancakes nothing close to that

2:52:01David Sims:happens in the film oh really no he doesn't

2:52:03Griffin Newman:sleep on pancakes

2:52:04David Sims:but it was clearly like a kind of like sub kind of Kasdan-y attempt at a dramedy that then they were like how do we sell this to look more like 40 year old virgin

2:52:16Ben Hosley:oh right what can be wacky

2:52:19David Sims:happening in relation to his face.

2:52:21Ben Hosley:Yeah.

2:52:21David Sims:A stack of pancakes. Put it on my pet.

2:52:24Griffin Newman:Number six in the box office is Saw 4. Okay. That's the one that starts with his autopsy, I believe. Okay. Maybe, I think, no, it is. Where they're like, he's dead. Number seven is the film The Game Plan. Now, what's that one? That is The Rock is a football player

2:52:41Leslye Headland:who finds out he had a daughter. And she likes ballet. And he's like, what's the game plan?

2:52:46Griffin Newman:Yes.

2:52:46David Sims:Or whatever. That's the era where he's like, I am solely family movie star. And he does that to Therese and Escape to Ridge Mountain in a row. And then was like, never mind. Never mind. Fuck this.

2:52:57Griffin Newman:Number eight at the box office is the sort of okay thriller, 30 Days of Night, the vampire movie with Josh Hartnett.

2:53:04Ben Hosley:Yeah, David Slade. I've never seen it.

2:53:05Griffin Newman:Number nine is something that I do not remember what this is. P2?

2:53:09Leslye Headland:The fuck is that?

2:53:10David Sims:That was a Wes Bentley evil parking attendant movie. I don't know how you know this. broken brain.

2:53:17Ben Hosley:How do you know

2:53:19David Sims:what 52 is? We've all parked in a parking lot. But what if?

2:53:23Leslye Headland:What if it was evil?

2:53:25David Sims:I think it's Rachel Nichols and Wes Bentley.

2:53:28Leslye Headland:You are correct.

2:53:29David Sims:And I, it was one of those distributors that only existed for like

2:53:32Leslye Headland:18 months.

2:53:33David Sims:Who are you?

2:53:34Griffin Newman:It was distributed, of course, well, it was distributed by Summit Entertainment. So they, Oh, okay, so maybe it was

2:53:39David Sims:early Summit.

2:53:40Griffin Newman:Yeah, but it was Alexandre Aja. He didn't direct it. He produced it and he found like one of his freaks to direct it. I would not direct a parking movie. I assume that's what he sounds like. Number 10 at the box office is The Martian Child. What is that again?

2:53:56Leslye Headland:It's John Cusack? John Cusack. And he's like, what if my child was Martian? Yes.

2:54:01Ben Hosley:When you hear like all the log lines, just diminishing returns of like, you know, we're going down to 10 and it's just like, my God.

2:54:11David Sims:I think it's basically the movie is like, help my son is K-Pax. I have watched this movie on a plane, but it's basically, I think, like Cusack being like, I don't know, the kid thinks he's a Martian. Oh, my God. And then someone plays the therapist who's trying to get through the kid. I want to say it has a maybe vaguely tasteless twist, but I might be misremembering that. I think it is one of the rare movies, though, where John and Joan play siblings, if I am not mistaken. That's what I got to say about the Martian child. I don't know what to tell you.

2:54:41Griffin Newman:That's it.

2:54:42David Sims:Leslie. Thank you, guys. Pleasure's all on. Thank you. Three for three.

2:54:48Ben Hosley:I mean, really, that is those.

2:54:50David Sims:Wow. Yeah. And once again, we cannot oversell how much dog shit we're going to sell you with next time.

2:54:56Ben Hosley:You have to. There's no way.

2:54:59David Sims:It's going to be the stinkiest shit we've ever covered on this show.

2:55:02Ben Hosley:Yeah. Yeah. But you guys have been really lovely in terms of. Essentially offering me or letting me pick like really. Of course. Oh, we heard you like Zodiac. Yeah.

2:55:15Griffin Newman:You know, and then David texted me and was like, that was the weird thing also where it was like nobody was going for Zodiac, which is odd because it's like so incredible.

2:55:24David Sims:We raised like the flag to friends and we're like, who like Zodiac? Why can't we find anybody?

2:55:29Ben Hosley:Yeah, I think like No Country is just, you know, it's just an astonishing movie. Yeah. So like those three, I just am like, Jesus Christ, I feel really lucky.

2:55:39David Sims:You did great. And I did. It felt like the pinnacle of their career to me at this time. And yet I think the run that comes right after it is sort of the kind of stuff you can only do when emboldened with this level of success. It's fertile stuff.

2:55:55Leslye Headland:It's a blank check.

2:55:55David Sims:It's really good shit. They had quite a blank check run right after this.

2:56:00Ben Hosley:Leslie, are you doing good? Yeah, I'm doing okay.

2:56:04David Sims:You're about to go on vacation.

2:56:05Ben Hosley:I'm about to go on vacation. and by vacation I mean I'm not going to be with my wife and my child. As a parent, I understand. I'm staying here but I'm not speaking.

2:56:16Griffin Newman:I don't have to deal with it.

2:56:18Ben Hosley:No, I'm okay. I'm good. I'm actually sort of not doing anything right now which is really lovely.

2:56:23Griffin Newman:That's great. I feel like I last saw you right before my twins were born. You were beginning to spool up on Cult of Love or whatever. You had stuff on your plate or whatever.

2:56:34Ben Hosley:I was about to start rehearsals for you. You had a lot going on.

2:56:37Griffin Newman:I feel like Accolade had just come out and you were starting.

2:56:39David Sims:And then like since then we will text once a month.

2:56:42Griffin Newman:It's like, we should really hang out. And I'm like, I know.

2:56:43David Sims:And then we never do. I'm so sleepy. Yeah. And I just wave and I'm like, I got no kids over here. You guys tell me when and where.

2:56:49Ben Hosley:I mean, I'm so tired that I'm not even playing like Night Rain with my RPG group. You know, like, I mean, we're just like we started and then everybody was like, what happened to you? And I was like, I just I can't even bring myself to play a video game. I'm so tired.

2:57:05Griffin Newman:I started the Donkey Kong game, which is for children. And I was like, this is kind of overwhelming.

2:57:11Ben Hosley:This is a lot for me right now. Yeah. But yeah, that's something. Let's hang out. That sums it up.

2:57:17Leslye Headland:And obviously, you know, everyone should be hanging out. And also Ben. But yeah, thanks for having me.

2:57:20Ben Hosley:Yeah. Thanks for having me. It was wonderful to watch the movie again.

2:57:23Leslye Headland:No, of course. A phenomenal film. Kind of an easy movie to talk about in a weird way where you're just like, who am I to say

2:57:29Griffin Newman:anything bad about this movie?

2:57:31Ben Hosley:Like, it all works. Yeah, you just kind of like roll through it. It's like absolutely brilliant.

2:57:36Griffin Newman:Not in like an uncomplicated way. There's complicated stuff to think about, but it's just kind of like, I'm not really faulting anything here.

2:57:43Ben Hosley:One thing that I was going to say very quickly was the one thing that I love about the novel and the film is that, you know, then Seventh Seal, it's like, I'm playing chess with death. And I just love that this movie is like, it's a coin toss. Yeah.

2:57:59Leslye Headland:There you go. There's no game to win. It's a coin toss. That's it right there. I think we also have to mention that this is a dry movie.

2:58:07Griffin Newman:Well, that's true, Ben.

2:58:08Leslye Headland:Thank God we've said that.

2:58:09Griffin Newman:Although he does go in the water at one point to get away from the people.

2:58:13Leslye Headland:And it looks refreshing.

2:58:14Griffin Newman:I know. Because it's so hot. When he goes in there, I'm like, man, that's what I would be doing all the time.

2:58:18David Sims:But to back up Ben's point here, it's a movie so dry that the greatest mistake its lead character makes is getting a jug of water.

2:58:28Leslye Headland:And going by the pool.

2:58:29Ben Hosley:And getting a jug of water.

2:58:30Griffin Newman:The water fucks. I was kind of shocked you didn't have water, by the way. I'm like, you're out here, like, hunting in the desert. You don't have, like, a fucking bottle of water? Like, you served in the army. Hey, maybe this guy is a fucking moron.

2:58:40David Sims:He's dumb. Yeah.

2:58:42Leslye Headland:It's a friggin' dry movie.

2:58:44David Sims:Thank you all for listening. Thank you.

2:58:46Ben Hosley:Thank you, guys.

2:58:46David Sims:Please remember to rate, review, and subscribe. Tune in next week for Burn After Reading. Right. Just a really funny follow-up movie. Yeah, we'll have that figure.

2:58:54Griffin Newman:That's when we're, like, eight guests have rotated out of that spot. We'll see.

2:58:57David Sims:It's been an interesting... Yeah. It's been, like, the crow reading. Oh, my God. in terms of the number of different names.

2:59:02Leslye Headland:The person, the standing name right now is Y. We cannot say it, but we'll tell you after. Yeah, don't say it, don't say it.

2:59:11Ben Hosley:What happens. I'll see you guys for the next Masterpiece.

2:59:13David Sims:Yeah, absolutely. Penny Marshall's riding cars with boys.

2:59:19Ben Hosley:I'm game.

2:59:20David Sims:David's taking a photo of what?

2:59:21Leslye Headland:Of the runtime? Runtime. Someone asked me how long this episode was.

2:59:24David Sims:Okay, because it's not four. We came in. No, we didn't go four.

2:59:27Ben Hosley:A respectful three. A respectful three. Just under.

2:59:29Leslye Headland:I don't know how you put up with this.

2:59:31Ben Hosley:I'm obsessed with this. This was actually like my, my, um, it's my happy place. I love talking with you guys. And I even said, I was like, I just am so happy that I get to do something that I love. And I'm not like, and, and it's during a time when I'm not also like under deadline. It's kind of like, it's very chill vibes.

2:59:50David Sims:And as always, I'm going to promise you that next time you're going to get the worst fucking movie ever. Dog shit.

2:59:59you

3:00:03Leslye Headland:Blank Check with Griffin and David is hosted by Griffin Newman and David Sims. Our executive producer is me, Ben Hosley. Our creative producer is Marie Barty Salinas. And our associate producer is AJ McKeon. This show is mixed and edited by AJ McKeon and Alan Smithy. Research by J.J. Birch. Our theme song is by Lane Montgomery in The Great American Novel, with additional music by Alex Mitchell. Artwork by Joe Bowen, Ollie Moss, and Pat Reynolds. Our production assistant is Minnick. Special thanks to David Cho, Jordan Fish, and Nate Patterson for their production help. Head over to BlankCheckPod.com for links to all of the real nerdy shit.

3:00:42Leslye Headland:Join our Patreon, Blank Check Special Features, for exclusive franchise commentaries and bonus episodes. Follow us on social at BlankCheckPod. Subscribe to our weekly newsletter, Checkbook, on Substack. This podcast is created and produced by Blank Check Productions.