Picnic at Hanging Rock with Jane Schoenbrun

8:07Jane Schoenbrun:There's something like Aboriginal going on. Sure, sure. Or like, I think it's Walkabout is maybe the key. You're thinking of Walkabout. That makes a lot of sense. And I'm thinking about like, there's this thing, especially in the, because then I looked up the Peter Weir filmography, and I was like, oh, I can't talk about, what's the one with Albert Einstein and Marilyn Monroe? No, not Performance. Performance is one.

8:33David Sims:Eureka? Eureka. No, not Eureka. No, it's not called Conversation. It's called... These are all movies, though. They are. I'm going to find it. That movie rocks. Yes. But that's one of the more quietly insane movies ever made.

8:49Griffin Newman:Insignificance is the film. Wonderful name, too. And it was... Easy to remember. Of course, Teresa Russell, I think, as Marilyn Monroe. Gary Busey as, I think, Joe DiMaggio. Yeah, that's right.

9:03Jane Schoenbrun:Where have you gone, Gary Busey?

9:05Griffin Newman:Wait, who played DiMaggio in Blonde? In Blonde, wasn't it? Also, Gary Busey. They brought him back.

9:12David Sims:Wasn't it Adrian Brody? No. Who was it? Oh, boy. I remember thinking they got DiMaggio wrong. Kind of all.

9:21Jane Schoenbrun:In Blonde, Gary Busey was Albert Einstein.

9:24Griffin Newman:In Blonde, Gary Busey did come back. Is Gary Busey alive or did he recently leave us? He's alive. He's alive. But let's just say this episode's a month away. Yeah.

9:33David Sims:Right, right.

9:33Griffin Newman:As is Peter Weir. Peter Weir is alive, retired, and I truly think like gardening and chilling. Yeah.

9:39Jane Schoenbrun:Yeah.

9:39Griffin Newman:He seems to be taking it easy. Yeah.

9:42Jane Schoenbrun:What was I going to say? So I think the, because there's this thing, especially in like the Australian Peter Weir movies, at least the ones that I've seen, where there's like, there's like something grotesque or there's some kind of like the guy from the what's the plumber one? The plumber? The titular plumber? I feel like I relate that to the like there's a lot of that kind of guy in the Nicholas Rogue movies too.

10:10David Sims:Nicholas Rogue is like I think a classic dang ass freak through and through whereas Peter Weir for a guy who became... He left it behind. He left it behind. That's what's interesting. I do think there's a baseline darkness to his movies. Yes, I think so. I think part of what was good was he was able to jump over to Hollywood and work with big stars. But what they appreciated was that he brought a surprising amount of edge and depth and darkness.

10:34Jane Schoenbrun:And in this way, there's a little bit of like Milos. Yes.

10:37David Sims:Another guy like that. He does have a kind of bifurcated the Australian half and the Hollywood half of his career. This is absolutely his guarantor in the terms that we usually apply on this podcast. This film. This film. Yeah. His second feature film, which is basically canonically accepted in Australian culture as the great Australian movie.

10:57Griffin Newman:I think it was named the number one Australian movie in some survey. Yeah.

11:03Jane Schoenbrun:More than a Mad Max or a Heavenly Creatures?

11:06Griffin Newman:I guess the question is, right, now we get into the question of what's the competition.

11:10David Sims:I think it's a little bit because this is seen as the supreme artistic achievement. Yeah. And Ben and I were watching some of the special features, producer Ben and I, on the Second Sight box set. And Weir was talking about that in the sort of reconstructed Australian new wave in cinema, they had like comedy breakthroughs. Mad Max, of course, is semi-inspired by The Cars That Ate Paris and comes after Weir, but kind of concurrent in this time. But they were like succeeding in genre. They were succeeding in character-based comedy. And there was this feeling in the industry of, can we identify our Ingmar Bergman?

11:48David Sims:Can we have our, like, elevated auteur who we can point to the other countries and go, we got a guy? And this movie was sort of received as, I think we finally have one. We found our guy. Yeah. And then, you know, Noyce and other people come out kind of like simultaneous with him. But I think this is culturally seen as such an important breakthrough of kind of serious legitimacy.

12:13Griffin Newman:I mean, George Miller, obviously. We mentioned him. Who are the other big guys? Baz. Baz.

12:22Jane Schoenbrun:Is Alex Pryas Australian? He is?

12:24David Sims:Yeah. He comes later. He's a little later. Yeah. Let's see. Who's identified as part of the Australian new wave? I feel like Wake and Fright has been maybe reclaimed as a significant one. But he's interesting because that's Ted Kochaf. he jumps over to America very quickly and then does like First Blood. He does like trashier stuff. Dallas 40.

12:47Griffin Newman:Weekend Fright is really cool though. That's like, but like that's, there are those Australian movies that would pass over that would basically be like, you know, Australia is basically just like a burning wasteland filled with like people with sticks who will hate you. Yeah. People were like, I guess it is, right? You know, like the, and then Paul Hogan comes over and he's like, no, we're just a bunch of mates. love to have a big beer you know like there was that gillian armstrong yes is part of that same

13:12David Sims:wave but i think a lot of leftover season three yes i do think uh peter weir uh kind of stands out as the guy who made the translation over to the studio system the best as i was saying right philip noyce becomes first and foremost kind of like hired hand elevated adult thriller guy right um uh damon lindelof has cited uh this film hanging rock that's right i read that actually

13:43Jane Schoenbrun:season two of the leftovers yes yeah and that's the other thing about this movie is like the

13:48David Sims:cultural tale of its influence on other major works is humongous sure this feels like such a

13:55Jane Schoenbrun:turning point movie of helping to define it's a fascinating i it was i watched this movie for the first time. Hi, I'm Jane, by the way. Yeah, I was about to say, Griff, who's our guest? Our guest today is Jane Schoenberg.

14:09David Sims:I'm returning to the show for the second time. Director of I Saw the TV Glow. And excuse me. We're all going to the World's Fair. We're all going to the World's Fair. The title of your next film is? It's Teenage Sex and Death at Camp Miasma. I was going to get like 60 % of that right, but I didn't want to make it.

14:24Jane Schoenbrun:Somebody said Teenage Death Camp.

14:27Griffin Newman:This is why I didn't want to take that. That sounds touchy. Yeah. That sounds like we could be going in the wrong direction. Yes. I definitely would have just said, like, Camp Miasma. I would have not been sure. Camp Miasma for sure.

14:40Jane Schoenbrun:There was a moment early in, like, production or prep when some emails were being sent and they were just being sent with the shorthand teenage sex. Right. And I said, you know what? Go with Camp Miasma. Yeah.

14:51David Sims:Have you figured out what the acronym is? Is there a catchy kind of... Yeah, no, it's great.

15:01Jane Schoenbrun:It's even better than Istvgut You have some good Yeah

15:06Griffin Newman:But then your TV glow you could just call TV glow Yeah Or you could call it

15:10Jane Schoenbrun:It's miasma You know we've been saying Miasma You do love a long title I have been accused of this And you know You have things to say And you're gonna start saying them At the title You should call it your next movie Where does it come from I think it comes from like Godspeed you black emperor Yeah Yeah Lift your skinny fingers to heaven

15:28Griffin Newman:Yeah or whatever that song was called or album remember Death From Above 1979 sure remember them they were great yeah

15:38David Sims:but Jane thank you for coming here thank you for doing this episode I'm stoked we were trying to find the right person for this one because it feels like such a big one and I forget what it was I stumbled upon first but you citing this as kind of like an important yeah synthesizing of kind of dream language in cinema in a modern way

15:58Jane Schoenbrun:What I was going to say is I feel like I had this period in my 20s where like I took my like kind of like random film video, like video store teenage year film nerddom. And I was like, OK, I got to like if if I'm going to go toe to toe with like the boys at Metrograph, I got to you know, I got I got to watch them all. I got to level up. I got to they shoot pictures, don't they? Top 1000 and just like work my way down. and this was very early in that for me. Like I watched this one like pretty early on in like learning film history in the canon and this was like an early one where I was like, whoa, there are films like this from the 70s?

16:38Griffin Newman:What's interesting about it, because I also like first watched it probably in college or whatever, is like it's so hooky, like premise, that you do, like there's no barrier to entry with this movie because you're like, oh fuck, what is this mystery? And then you watch it and you're left with a completely different set of feelings. than what you might have imagined of like, it's definitely not about like, you know, trying to figure out where the girls went in a meaningful way. Like it's not a practical film. We'll dig into this further,

17:05David Sims:but the great anecdote that Peter Weir tells about showing the film to an American distributor for the first time after it had like broken out in Australia and it was a buzzy title and the movie ends and the guy throws a cup of coffee at the screen and goes, there's no fucking answer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that's the whole reason he wanted to make the movie. the dream film syllabus that you wrote yes so what was this for was this for TV Glow

17:31Griffin Newman:or was it just general

17:32Jane Schoenbrun:this was before I mean maybe even yeah this was definitely before TV Glow a friend who had a site I think called Syllabus the Syllabus Project yeah that's right I was asked to write a syllabus of my choosing and I was like okay I'm gonna write a short syllabus of movies that I think I think I called it like the oneric you know like film language yes And yeah, I would update it if I was if I was writing it now.

17:58David Sims:But I mean, I had seen this when I was scanning for potential guests. I hadn't looked at it in some months. I'm glad you did. And looking at this list again now, these were the things I was thinking about. Many of the titles I was thinking about while watching this, trying to understand or kind of place where this movie comes from. No, because no, this is the point you were making, which I think is correct, which is like there was a kind of dream logic that existed primarily in the silent cinema when it was harder to tell more conventional narratives because you didn't have dialogue and things tended to be more visually expressionistic and dreamlike.

18:34David Sims:And then there was a sort of formalizing and a normalizing of stories that it does feel like Picnic at Hanging Rock started to break again. And to like because you put in here like Trip to the Moon, Cabinet of Dr. Calgary and Chandelier, Meshes of the Afternoon. Like, there is something very indebted to that era. For sure. And I think, like, the Jean Vigo movies, which have sound, obviously.

18:57Griffin Newman:The best movies ever made.

18:58David Sims:But that's, like, people watch those now, and they're like, when the fuck was this made? Why? This feels so modern. And things start to get more narrow right after that. Well, it's also, like, that's the golden age of, like,

19:09Jane Schoenbrun:Cocteau and all those guys, too. Yes. But I agree that looking at this movie now, like I was thinking a lot about Antonioni, right? Like this is like La Ventura. It's La Ventura, but more people vanish. It's like La Ventura meets the Wicker Man. Yes.

19:26Griffin Newman:Fuck yeah. Yeah, totally. Plus Australian accents, which just like La Ventura will always have black and white and Italian in its back pocket where you're like, this is classy. Whereas Australians, you're always like, this is earthier. Because like the way people talk in Australia just feels different.

19:44David Sims:I think that's part of the fascinating juxtaposition of this movie where you're like oh it's like dainty upper class australian period film yeah at a time where everything else that coming out of the australian new wave was like earthy for first and foremost like dirty ragged uh there's an oddness to like from a distance is this a merchant ivory movie and you're like no there's that like australian chaos to it um yeah and like there's obviously the line from this to all of sofia coppola's work is totally so direct and so short straight to just like virgin suicides being her first movie oh sure feels so not iterative of this but influenced by this and she has cited it as being like a big turning point movie for her but i also think malik is like on the same spectrum as this and obviously is is just a couple years away.

20:41David Sims:I thought of Memoria. Absolutely.

20:44Griffin Newman:That's maybe the other best movie ever made. Am I crazy? I love Memoria. That movie is the best movie ever made. Certainly of the decade. I should have put it on my sight and sound list. What was I doing?

20:55David Sims:I've shared my fuck up with that movie, right? What? Had it on mute? Even worse. I went to see it with an ex-girlfriend at the Alamo Draft House. That is the worst movie to is a dine-in experience. God bless, yeah. God forbid an emotionally charged, are we getting back together or is this the end of everything? Crunching my mozzarella sticks. Yeah, it was like a reconnection point that ended with me. Bad night. That movie made me want to just run into the street. I was so happy about the ending. I was, yeah. Instead, I was just like very self-conscious about when I took bites of my chicken tenders.

21:30Jane Schoenbrun:But this is a weird one. Like, this feels like sci-fi, right? Like Picnic and Hanging Rock. This movie, absolutely. At moments. It is really flirting with that.

21:38David Sims:It was one of the Coen Brothers movies where you said this, David, and I've thought about it a lot, where it's like... Great point by me. Well, wait until you hear what it is. The point was, I'm big and smart. No, the point was you said something like, this movie just feels like it has the answers. What movie was I referring to? I'm trying to remember. It might have been Lebowski. Sure. But these movies that somehow feel like, is there more going on? Is it like retaining secrets it's not sharing with me? and beyond the fact that this movie is like pointedly unsolved right i think there's something to watching this where you're like is this religious is this supernatural is it existential

22:18Jane Schoenbrun:is it all of them like gen there's something of like like the 60s and the 70s you know there's something of like that generational moment that it's coming at the end of but there's something really magical to a movie like this where you're like you watch it and you get the feeling of

22:34David Sims:confidence that it knows what it's about, but it's just not telling you. Versus sometimes I think when people try to affect the style of a movie like this from the outside in, and you're like, you're just being vague.

22:47Jane Schoenbrun:There's the Lynch quote where he says, um, I wanted it to feel like the answer was like in the next room over. Yeah. Perfect way of saying it.

22:57Griffin Newman:Yeah. Isn't it crazy though to watch the John Vigo movies, all like one and a half of them and just be like, this was the best it ever got. And not in a pessimistic way, just in a kind of like, oh yeah, this is right. It was all there pretty early and we've never beaten it.

23:13David Sims:That's how I feel about that. I dropped out of film school very quickly, but my favorite teacher in my very short period of time was a guy named Gary Mayers at CalArts who before screening us lots of lots said,

23:27David Sims:if, what was his phrasing? It was something, I'll paraphrase this, but it was something to the effect of if 1 % of movies were 1 % as good as LaTalante every year, we would be living in a perpetual golden age of cinema. Jesus Christ.

23:43Jane Schoenbrun:I think it's like who is, and I do feel that relationship between La Ventura and this film where it's how I feel about the Blair Witch Project also, which is like you weren't like, let's make a found footage movie. you were you were like let's make a movie and here's like like like you invented the language and so yeah without even totally i feel about like elliot smith songs versus like uh like like a litany of like other singer songwriters who are sort of like occupying a genre you know there's like something um like like it it was inside him and then everyone else copied it or something and and yeah la ventura to picnic and hanging rock because i feel like i don't watch this movie and and maybe it's just that I know we're not going to get the mystery solved but La Ventura is like the essence of that like what if the third act didn't come

24:38Griffin Newman:right yes right right what if it's like and that's that and I leave you with your thoughts like not with an answer or explanation

24:46Jane Schoenbrun:whereas this almost feels like it's like playing in that genre like that genre existed for this so that this could swim and run and make it a little sci-fi and also that feels like a simulation sometimes

24:57Griffin Newman:A little bit. Yeah.

24:58David Sims:Something to the fact that it is so seismic stylistically and in terms of what it contributes to the modern film language. And yet, unlike what you're talking about, someone like Malick or Antonioni or Sofia Coppola or Elliot Smith or whoever, where you're like, this is the only way they would know how to make something. They're not looking to break the form. This is just the purest expression of the way they view the world and their emotional landscape and all of that. you get into the making of this movie and Peter Weir like just breaks it down logically. This is not a style that's really shared by any of his other films.

25:33David Sims:He gets there incrementally in terms of problem solving the best way to adapt this novel and like serve the material and also make something that is sellable and ends up sort of like... Dumbling into this. Right. It's like the guy who like creates silly putty while trying to remove wallpaper glue

25:54Griffin Newman:or whatever yeah Blair Witch Project is actually it is a great comparison to this movie also because it is another movie that you watch where you're like this isn't real right because like my wife was like is this based on a true story and I'm like no like people didn't vanish like in in like a mystical way but you watch it and you're like this is a real thing that happened in Australian

26:17David Sims:history it it feels weirdly real and there also was the cultural reputation that preceded this movie of the book being framed almost as like a mini Fargo. Is this real? Right. Like what inspired this?

26:29Griffin Newman:Right. God, Blair Witch is the best. How do we, I guess we would do the series on Patreon. Yeah, that's what we've talked about. It's a weird movie to talk over. But yeah, anyway. I could do it. You like Blair Witch. Watch. Alright. We're not doing Blair Witch. I still maintain the scariest stuff in Blair Witch is at the beginning. I don't, or maybe that's crazy. But I do, I love that movie. It's incredible.

27:02David Sims:David, watch this. Watch this.

27:08David Sims:Can you tell me what's going on? I'm trying to hit home. But it's a foolish effort because nothing hits home. Like home cooking. That's true.

27:20Griffin Newman:Oh, boy. Well, it's really tough, man.

27:22David Sims:Wait, Griffin, what are you doing? I'm trying to hit home, but nothing hits as hard as home cooking.

27:26Griffin Newman:I just need a way to beat the winter blues, not get delivery, something kind of unsatisfying. It's much easier if I could choose from maybe 100 recipes every week.

27:37David Sims:Cuisines from around the world. Let's see. I have 99 right here on my desk, but that's not 100. And we might have to outsource this job to someone else. How about our friends at HelloFresh?

27:46Griffin Newman:Yes, HelloFresh is a place that makes it easy to do more home cooking every year with recipes that feel good and taste delicious night after night. They got more than 35 high-protein recipes each week, Mediterranean options, GLP-1 friendly options. They've got sustainably sourced seafood. They've got 100 % antibiotic and hormone-free chicken. They got three times the seafood for no upcharge. That upcharge is gone. They're beefing up the seafood. They've got grass-fed steak ribeyes. They've got seasonal produce, pears, apples, asparagus.

28:23David Sims:I love to entertain, of course, at my palatial estate. Yeah, of course. I've been there so hard. My manor. I love nothing more than when I can impress guests by whipping out a great recipe that I have cooked all by myself for the dinner parties that I throw nightly. And HelloFresh is great for that, but also great just if you want to treat yourself. So Ben, any recipes you've been jamming on hard recently?

28:46Griffin Newman:Oh yeah. Actually, I was just checking out old school barbecue pork sloppy joes. Ooh. That's a super high protein item. Slop it up. Yep. And we mentioned seafood.

28:57David Sims:There is, of course, prep and bake Tex-Mex salmon tacos. That is exciting because I'm on a bit of a seafood diet right now, if you catch my meaning. Seafood, you eat it? No, I'm eating mostly, of course, creatures from the sea.

29:11Griffin Newman:So go to HelloFresh.com slash check 10 FM to get 10 free meals and a freeze willing knife. That's a$144.99 value. $144.99. On your third box. Offer valid while supplies last. Free meals applied as discount on first box. New subscribers only. Varies by plan. That is HelloFresh.com slash check 10 FM. 1-0 FM.

29:49I'm going to open the dossier about picnic and hanging rock.

29:54Griffin Newman:Lady Joan Lindsay wrote this book. She was a painter. She studied art at the National Gallery of Victoria Art School in Melbourne. She wrote unpublished plays, and then she wrote a debut novel under a pseudonym, and this is all in the 20s and 30s, and didn't become successful until she was in her 60s and 70s. She wrote a book called Time Without Clocks. Sounds cool. Facts, Soft, and Hard. I assume nobody has read these books. Say that last one again.

30:23David Sims:Facts, Soft, and Hard. C-T-S? Mm-hmm. It sounded like you were saying fats, like fats domino. Fats domino. Soft and hard. Fats dominoes.

30:32Griffin Newman:No, I don't know what those books are about, but those came before 1967's Picnic at Hanging Rock. She was labeled a bit of a mystic by her friends. Sort of said that she could see things others couldn't. Knew things without being told. Could tell what had happened in the past. I mean, what? Apparently this is what her friends said about her. Time without clocks refers to the fact that she could sort of stop clocks and watches in her presence. I mean, cool. And, I mean, she sounds cool. Yeah. Get her on the podcast. I think she might be very dead, but maybe we can summon her from another time. If there's anyone we can summon, it's her.

31:14David Sims:It sounds like it. She probably likes League of Their Own.

31:17Griffin Newman:Now, Hanging Rock is a real place. She'd had a weird dream about a picnic there. She knew this place well from her childhood holidays. And she wakes up from this dream and she can feel the breeze blowing through the trees and hear the laughter. And she starts writing and wrote this in 10 days, supposedly. Yes, the novel. As though possessed, correct.

31:40David Sims:Now, the novel opens with, whether picnic at Hanging Rock is fact or fiction, my readers must decide for themselves. As the fateful picnic took place in the year 1900 and all the characters who appear in this book are long since dead, it hardly seems important. And the book was warmly received, but much like the opening of Fargo, it like sparked a bunch of fucking conversation of, is she trying to convince us this is real? Is this a con? is this like a scandal that's been covered up etc etc

32:10Griffin Newman:here is a painting called At Hanging Rock by William Ford that inspired her clearly the film as well exactly and indeed as you point out she kind of does the Fargo thing of like is it true or not to her true is different that's how she puts it and so you know uh the peter weir had made homesdale right griff which is like is it a short film or is like a tv

32:42David Sims:movie it's like 50 minutes long yeah he made a couple 50 minute guys i haven't seen homesdale yet i watched his section called michael of an omnibus about young people in australia okay that's very good uh but homesdale is seemingly the one that got him on the map uh and it was

32:59Griffin Newman:the movie that attracted the attention of uh pat level who is like an uh australian sort of show busy person she was like a tv person yeah yeah and she uh kind of takes the book to peter he was writing cars they paris right so he hadn't you know even started work on that and he she leaves the book with him he reads it late into the night can't put it down he loved that it was open-ended. Like, he's basically reading the book being like, they better not solve this, and then they don't. The quote I heard him say... That it's not Sherlock Holmes.

33:33David Sims:He always thought about Hitchcock saying that a mystery was the hardest kind of story to crack. Right. But in his experience as a viewer, he always felt disappointed when mysteries had to solve themselves.

33:43Griffin Newman:Well, because Sherlock Holmes, it is annoying when he's like, actually, it was a robot. You know, and then... Sometimes it's awesome. Sometimes it's awesome.

33:49David Sims:Yeah. Excuse me, David. If Sherlock Holmes said it was a robot, that would be awesome. The Hound of a Baskervilles was a big fucking robot. That would be cool. No, but it's very hard to make the ending that is more satisfying than the anticipation and the mystery, which I think what he was saying, that often it feels like, even if an ending is surprising or catchy, that it still isn't as exciting as the tension at the center. Kind of how I felt about weapons. Interesting. I mean, yes.

34:20Jane Schoenbrun:I was like, ooh, I hope I don't find out where these kids went. Then they were like, it was a witch it was a witch it's a witch and she did a specific thing she did some very specific things

34:30David Sims:she had a very particular set of skills tangling hair around a stick yep cut water's involved a bowl of water yep um but yes he read this and was like i fucking love that this just doesn't have an ending yes that it doesn't solve it that's my perfect kind of mystery movie he meets with her

34:48Griffin Newman:because he has to be approved by her to make the movie they meet and at a certain point he says forgive me but can I ask you I'm not supposed to ask you this but is it true? She looks very tense. The novelist you're saying. He asks the novelist.

35:01David Sims:Yes. He was in fact specifically warned going into the meeting the only thing we forbid you from doing is asking her if it's real. And she said I really don't want to discuss that

35:11Griffin Newman:please don't ask again.

35:13David Sims:Wow. But then she also said She still was into it.

35:16Griffin Newman:She was like you can make the movie.

35:18David Sims:I believe she said something to him to the effect of it feels true to me in a way. And that his interpretation of it was, this is in some way in conversation with some experience she had that she would not share. Obviously, it is set in a time she didn't, you know, would not have lived through in that way. But it felt like in the same way that it came out of a dream, it was some processing of something that she had deeply repressed, which is why she was so noncommittal always. And it was sort of a warped interpretation.

35:50Jane Schoenbrun:And then for us watching the movie, like watching someone else doing their best to like honor that experience that someone else had that's interesting.

36:03David Sims:Yes and he also asked her he said you don't need to explain it to me but can you tell me is there a definitive answer in your mind and she said yes. Wow. She said portal. He was like do they just fall down a dimension X.

36:17Griffin Newman:Are there aliens

36:18David Sims:it's something supernatural whatever and she goes I know what it is. which is kind of what he needed to know even if he didn't need to be told

36:27Griffin Newman:he needed that mood to exist in some way he's recommended David Williamson an Australian playwright to write the book doesn't happen but that guy does end up writing Gallipoli and Year of a Living Dangerously so they do work together but he suggests a guy called Cliff Green who wrote the screenplay who said the whole thing was a magical experience this is what I like about him this is the quote I like that JJ highlighted the first 20 minutes of the film more easy to write because it's straight line chronologically but the moment when edith comes screaming down the hill becomes a more complex story so much of it is atmosphere and setting it's really a book about the atmosphere of australia love that that's like again that this guy just reads the book and gets it that like i am not you know being asked to make this more linear or make this more about something in a way a movie needs to be about something you know what i mean like it'd be so easy to read this book and be like okay but you know it can't just be about the atmosphere of australia whatever that fucking means right like that it's you know gotta be more about like no and then a bunch of guys came with metal detectors and waved them around hanging rock and then a bunch of you know spiritualists came or what you know like however that i mean there was a tv miniseries version of this i know i i kind of wanted to watch what was that like i mean i don't know like what does that do to the story there's a musical that has been

37:46David Sims:like it just finished a run here in new york i was trying to get to it but like it's been like 15 years of like redevelopment this is a story that people keep coming back to i just want to throw out a little bit and like just move back one step for one second the the bizarreness of this project coming together in the way that it did uh patricia lovell the person you mentioned who reached out to Weir after seeing his his short film was like as a bad analog, like the Kelly Ripa of Australia, like someone who had started in radio and then was like a children's TV presenter and then was like a morning television person and like did not have a footing in film, reads this book, decides I should option this.

38:30David Sims:Right. And I've seen the short film and I guess I hasn't made a feature yet. And I'm going to reach out to him where Peter Weir's like, when I got the call, it didn't even fucking make sense what was being presented to me why she was the person why she would believe in me and then when she brings him to meet with um joan lindsey he and joan lindsey hit it off immediately and she was by all accounts a very kind of tough guarded customer and everyone's just like this feels like the right combination of people even though it belies any sort of traditional thinking

39:01Griffin Newman:they could barely scrap together a budget obviously they're promising to make a movie with no resolution. It's not an easy sell. The book was at least famous in some way. They get 220 ,000 pounds is how he puts it. About 440 ,000 Australian dollars. You know, their money is laminated. It's like plastic because they all go in the beach. They all go in the water. Australians are going to get so mad at me on this miniseries because everything I know about Australia is from uninformed opinions that British people had that I learned when I lived in Britain and Bluey. I was going to say. And Bluey presents It's a very utopian vision of Australia.

39:37Griffin Newman:Louis makes you think they're the best of us. Right.

39:38David Sims:And I have noticed anytime we talk about Australia on this podcast, your British upbringing comes into play where you're like...

39:45Griffin Newman:They're very, you know, they look down on them.

39:47David Sims:But you describe them like they're a bunch of loony tunes.

39:50Griffin Newman:That's how British people talk about them. Like fucking punching each other in the water. Like British people are English people, I should say, because it's not British people. English people are basically like Scottish people are like drunk madmen. Welsh people are like simpletons. Australians are just, right, like raving criminals living in this like semi-lawless landscape.

40:10David Sims:You make sideswipe comments as if Beyond Thunderdome is toned down from the everyday life of the modern Australia.

40:20Griffin Newman:And then you watch Bluey and you're like, oh, what a fine place this is.

40:22David Sims:Have they solved emotional intelligence? Are they the ones? um the the mackleroy uh brothers uh uh my brother my brother and and uh peter weir uh hallinjian mackleroy who produced this and also produced um uh cars that ate paris yeah and later produces uh produced the last wave they said they were having such a hard time getting uh cars that ate paris off the ground they knew how difficult it was for that movie not having like a clean hook and a weird title and like a murky plot that one of the strategic decisions they make is we're already thinking about how to sell this movie that's not going to satisfy in a conventional mystery way let's make the girls who disappear as like ethereal and poetic and enticing as possible not just so we can put them at the center of the poster but so that the tension of the movie comes from the rug pull of oh shit they're gone right that's the dreaminess right right yeah yeah like really hook you into these girls right a psycho framing that they pitched to we're and he's on board with with like how do we make the first 30 minutes so intoxicating and even just the visual language of fucking pan flutes girls and their flowing white dresses at the front of the poster with these dreamy color scheme and then we're gonna freak you out

41:44Jane Schoenbrun:and I think that on rewatch a thing that I kind of like vaguely remembered being left with I think this movie maybe peaks in those first 30 minutes for me it is

41:58Griffin Newman:there's nothing like it I don't know if you can sustain that mood yeah no 100 % right so it's sort of unavoidable but you are a little bit like take me back you know when it's right like I just it is a movie where I'm like I'm not sure I care who's sleeping with each other or who's having a conversation right now. But that's not true because I love the movie. You know, of course, you know what I mean? I love the movie also.

42:22Jane Schoenbrun:Yes. And those first 30 minutes are like, that's the thing that if you don't watch it for four years, you're like, yeah, you're full in on.

42:30Griffin Newman:It's also why her screaming is so upsetting. Even though like nothing, you know, violent happens and nothing, you know, nothing really at all happens. but it's like Grace Zabriskie screaming in Twin Peaks which Jane of course has discussed on the show with us where you're just like Jesus why is she making that I don't know like it snaps you out of the reverie in a really disturbing way what Griff?

42:55David Sims:No I also forget which ones are which and hopefully JJ has answered this Which girl is which? No Oh okay I see women as different people

43:02Jane Schoenbrun:No I definitely I can differentiate I could not in this you know there are like there are some characters at the picnic you know you're like oh glasses girl but yes

43:12David Sims:no what I was gonna say where is Jackie Jackie Weaver is the maid she's not one of the girls she's the maid getting a little something something on the side oh sure sure sure yeah but it is she is one of those people where you know Jackie Weaver in the present tense reintroduced as like you know she's all fucking have ya

43:34Griffin Newman:10 million pounds or whatever

43:37David Sims:Right, kind of like one of the weirdest two-time Oscar nominees. Oh, rules. But like, she's in this. She has a run of Australian work. Then she kind of like disappears from Australian film for a long time. What's the second nom for? Obviously the first. Silver Lines Playbook. Right. She's like, I'll fucking have you.

43:53Griffin Newman:Where's the money? Was she liking that one? Yeah. I've only seen her once. Yeah, that's exactly what she said.

43:57David Sims:Go Eagles. I'll fucking have you, Eagles. Yeah. Wood or Ice. Wood or Ice. Wood or Ice.

44:04Griffin Newman:Right, yeah.

44:05David Sims:John. What I was going to say Just pissing off Philadelphians 2 now? Yeah I think Five Year Engagement is the movie she makes right after getting the Animal Kingdom nomination Yeah That was her first Hollywood film ever Ever Right And even before Animal Kingdom she hadn't done a movie in like a decade had mostly been doing theater Sure Like she's in the most iconic Australian film in a supporting part and then even still has this drips and drabs career doesn't even become like Australian character actor royalty until decades later. And you see her, you hear that she was in Picnic at Hanging Rock and you just looking at her face present day are like, it's going to be so hard to pick out who she is because there's no way she looked like this when she was.

44:51Jane Schoenbrun:I think I even like Googled like totally what character that she plays and then was like, well, you're not Sarah. So right. Who fucking knows?

45:00David Sims:You're not Irma. Irma. Irma. Have you seen Fearless Jane, the Peter Weir movie with Jeff Bridges? No. It is another movie where I think the whole thing is very good, and the first 30 minutes feel transcendent. That's true.

45:17Griffin Newman:And similarly dreamlike. I mean, not similar to this, but just in a fugue kind of state.

45:23David Sims:He's come to replicating this style and has a similar, like, well, reality needs to splash water in your face. This tone can't maintain forever. and it is one of these movies where you're like it's not like the movie falls off a cliff after the first 30 minutes but the first 30 minutes are just activating something that is like yeah it's thrilling it's a miracle it still feels otherworldly

45:43Griffin Newman:it's funny that we're saying that right the oh no he never really replicated this tone again and then I'm like no you're right about Fearless and then like the Truman Show is like that especially before the also has a similar kind of structure

45:54David Sims:of like 40 minutes of like what is this weird transmission from space

45:58Jane Schoenbrun:yes and the reason I was thinking about Dead Poets Society is because I imagine like the big difference is that like this doesn't have like characters like that movie has maybe but also it certainly has this like boarding school repression

46:17Griffin Newman:you watch Dead Poets Society now and you're like that's Ethan Hawke that's Robert Sean Leonard but like I don't know if you felt that way as much when that movie came out and there was a bunch of boys

46:25David Sims:part of those guys becoming those guys was that That movie takes its time to like sell you on each of those guys individually versus the inverse of this, which is like we need to sell you on a vibe and an energy of what these girls represent. Right. That is enjoyable for you to watch because we don't have time to build them individually as characters. I don't even know if it's don't have time.

46:42Jane Schoenbrun:Like I feel like the movie is disinterested in like it's just kind of nasty all the way through. And like even like those those men and like the school mistress. Yeah. And then at the end of the movie, when you just like find out in quick succession that like the two main characters left die. Yes. Very. It's not logical. It's not like emotionally logical or it's clear that it's like clearing space to do something else then. Yeah.

47:10Griffin Newman:So when they're like and everyone died, I'm like, yes. Right.

47:13David Sims:I suppose you would never get over this experience.

47:16Griffin Newman:Everything's unraveled already at this point.

47:19David Sims:When you were saying like, I don't really care about the conversations towards the end of who's sleeping with who, when it gets into the... You know me, I hate gossip. You hate gossip. This movie is in that somewhat limited canon of decade-plus-later director's cuts that take footage out. Yeah, he trimmed it down about 10 minutes. It is hard to find the theatrical version now. Wow. Like, Criterion has always only put out the director's cut, which is about 10 minutes shorter. And the 10 minutes that are cut out are mostly in the last 30 minutes of the film and are kind of shoe leather stuff. It's like more stuff with the coachman and shit.

47:57David Sims:None of it's bad, but it does feel interesting that he makes this film in 1975 and then in like 97 or 98, he's like, in decades of re-watching this film as part of retrospectives, maybe we just get to the end faster. Maybe past the first act, I could have tightened this up.

48:17Jane Schoenbrun:Well, because it's like, it's such a spell for those first 30 minutes. Yeah. And then it's not exactly that the spell is lifted. It's more that like the spell just has this like slow like denouement.

48:27Griffin Newman:Yes. Yeah. Just to give you a little more context on the film. Obviously, money comes from Australian Film Development Corporation and South Australia, you know, like government money. But he says like the Australian New Wave is basically happening concurrently with indie dramas being made in Australia. If that makes sense. He's like, the people came first, then came the money. like I feel like the country starts to get aware of like oh there's something artistically happening here with Australian film that is brand new and we can give a little money to him not like a ton of money to it weir calls it kind of like like the sort of hippie hang you know like post hippie yes kind of thing is you know like these people the flower children the anti-war movement are now kind of just rattling around getting a little older and some of them are starting to make movies

49:19David Sims:It's similar to what like Easy Rider kickstarted over in Hollywood. And he said like that's they wanted to put the money into that to angry young person movies, character studies, things that were kind of like sexually charged social comedies. and when they were pitching this movie, even though the book was successful, people were like, who the fuck wants to watch a period piece? That they were facing so much opposition to like, that's not what's going on in the culture right now. And that he was so frustrated that there was this limiting in a film market, a film scene that had finally opened up and they were already trying to pigeonhole it to, this is the only thing we export.

49:59David Sims:And that after Picnic at Hanging Rock, people were angry that he was making the last wave and that he wasn't sticking with period films because Picnic had had such a big impact that everyone flipped the other way. Weir's take is that The Rock literally opened up

50:15Griffin Newman:and swallowed them, by the way.

50:16Jane Schoenbrun:Whoa, he's got a... Yeah. He's got his own solution.

50:19Griffin Newman:He says, like, over the years, he talked with her a lot. You know, after he makes the movie, she sort of trusts him more. Mm-hmm. Where she's, like, basically... Like, of course she made it up, quote-unquote, but there's some... She's like, listen, The Rock opened up and swallowed him. fucking rock just eat people right fucking hanging rock more like hungry rock hungry rock yeah um and like then eventually at one point he's like did a ufo get them and she's like maybe and he's like all right you're too much like and then she dies but then peter weir is like he's like i just had to have an answer in my head and i've decided that like they just got swallowed by essentially the earth.

50:58Jane Schoenbrun:I love that. Right.

50:59Griffin Newman:But I don't know. You know, and he also was basically like, she was kind of shocked by the movie when she saw it for the first time and said like, he kind of changed the tone and I didn't really write it with that kind of feeling, which is interesting to think about. But like, you know, what she was imagining versus this sort of dreamy thing that she's seeing. But they were friends for life.

51:23David Sims:But that's part of the, this is a dream that felt really real to her. Totally. You know, she doesn't need that translation in tone to sell the lapse in logic because it makes emotional sense to her, which is the part that I think made him, Weir, feel like this was in conversation with something real she had experienced. Sure. Some emotional truth.

51:47Griffin Newman:Yes.

51:47David Sims:Right.

51:47Griffin Newman:Peter Weir's like, obviously, a bunch of girls didn't just vanish. Right. That would be in the news, even in 1900. Like, and there's no evidence that that happened.

51:55David Sims:But that's what I think he was smart about, talking about him, like, kind of landing on the style pragmatically is, like, she thinks of this like it's the French connection. And if I present this as the French connection, people are going to ask 8 ,000 questions. What do you mean? Where did they go? If it feels unreal from the beginning, that's part of the juice. He also said that when he went to the real location, once he had signed on to make the film, he was like, oh, fuck. There's like an energy.

52:22Griffin Newman:Everyone when they shot there said like it was spooky as hell and we hated it.

52:26Jane Schoenbrun:When you see it in the movie, no offense. I was like, that's hanging rock. It's not that good. It's just, it's like they're like going on this long trip to hanging rock. Yeah. Australia sucks, guys. No, I'm kidding.

52:36Griffin Newman:I'm totally kidding. It seems to rock. They get these girls mostly from Adelaide from like fancy schools. Like he basically like realizes they looked at lots of girls, but they realized like, no, we need kind of like posh private school girls who are 16 years old.

52:50David Sims:This was the thing I was going to say. What? Before I lost my point, a thing that has never happened before in the history of this podcast, that he, they dubbed over a majority of the schoolgirls. Because for him, he was like, I'm ready to cast two different parts. The look and the energy is so important that I will cast based on that, even if they can't deliver lines. And there's a lot of them. And get voiceover actors to like sell the line delivery later because it's not like they have that much dialogue.

53:19Jane Schoenbrun:well it seems it's one of the things that i love about the first 30 minutes of the movie is that and and the quality like continues on but there's that like painterly quality where it's like you're almost looking at these like wide shots that look like these old these old like impressionist paintings you know like these like groups of of of girls in in nature you know yes and and like

53:41David Sims:literally holding fabrics over the lens to make things feel more uh not synthetic but like pointedly artificial. Yeah. And Unreal. Yeah. I'm just going to keep using the word Unreal. This movie was made using Unreal Engine, right? This was the original. It's actually an Unreal tournament. It is.

54:00Griffin Newman:Yeah. But like, the way the producers and we are describing, you know, it's like they were a bunch of hysterical teenage girls. Like in the best way. Like they just had the right energy once you got them all together. Most of them never act again. Yeah. One of them has a story about like the author seeing her and calling her Miranda and being like, it's been so long. Everyone seems a little high on like how insane it was to make this movie and how it felt like it was real. Do you know what I mean? Like, and I'm not being dismissive of this.

54:31David Sims:I was going to say, I love your dance between loving movies more than anything. I love it. And then sometimes you read shit like this and you're like, fucking get over yourselves. So what? You made a 10 out of 10 masterpiece. Fuck off.

54:43Griffin Newman:It's not that. It's more just like, you're telling this anecdote of like the author was looking at me with shimmering eyes, addressing me as this long-lost girl in her past or whatever. And that was obviously very meaningful. But it does feel like everyone got kind of intoxicated by being in this location, being in these costumes. It's cool, though. You make movies. I make movies. Yeah, rules.

55:03Jane Schoenbrun:You make great movies.

55:04Griffin Newman:I bet you that's exactly how it feels.

55:06Jane Schoenbrun:You kind of need it, too. If you're going to make a fucking movie, you need to be like... To be like... It gets very tarot-card-y, you know? It gets very like,

55:15Griffin Newman:whoa this must be cosmic it's so funny how people only talk about movies like that right like where it's like yeah we kind of got like something's happening or they were like yeah making that sex scene was really weird they had to like put baby powder on me every take and like every setup is really boring you know where you're like wasn't it awesome to do this thing of like no boring

55:36Jane Schoenbrun:and technically because it's amazon fulfillment it's like there there's there is the like um like the Marvel, like the Robert Downey Jr. Land way of making a movie. Of course. You know, there's the like, all right, we're, you know, call me out when you're ready for me. I'm going to be in my trailer. You have a Jane Land, right? Yeah. The Jane, the Jane Land is, is, is, is just a big box of jelly beans. You're inside the box. Like it's a fucking ball pit. A ball pit. A fucking cheese. Yeah. But then like if you're, yeah, the other, the other option for making a movie is that Like you care a lot and everyone is not sleeping and you enter a state that's like one step below war level psychosis.

56:20Jane Schoenbrun:And by the end of that, yeah, you're going to be like that fucking rock, man.

56:25David Sims:I mean, I guess it was because I was I was digging this movie and the surrounding stuff. But I ended up watching last night a peak pandemic Zoom 20 year reunion of the Virgin Suicides cast. Sure. Okay. Hartnett Hartnett Dunst Dunst and the other daughters most of whom right didn't really right one of them was young Jenny and Forrest Gump but that was kind of her last major major role isn't one of them AJ Cook yes who's like the Criminal Minds girl

56:58Griffin Newman:for the next she's still on that show

57:00David Sims:yes because I watched fucking Final Destination 2 and I was like what happened to this person she's really good and you're like oh she made 47 trillion dollars on 800 seasons I've been on Criminal Minds since I started college, and I'm 40 years old. Here's what's so crazy about this, if I can go off for half a second here. She joins like four or five seasons in, and you're like, oh, late. She only did 600 episodes of Criminal Minds. She's now on a Criminal Minds spinoff, I believe.

57:28Griffin Newman:No, you are incorrect. Criminal Minds has merely been retitled Criminal Minds Evolution. Insane. Yes.

57:34David Sims:Okay. And the other thing that happened is at one point— Why, by the way?

57:37Griffin Newman:Because Criminal Minds went off the air for two whole years, and CBS was just like, need it back! And so they just brought back the same cast. Montagna's back. AJ Cook is back. They called it Criminal Minds Evolution, I guess, to distinguish that something had happened. Because Charmander used to be on the show.

57:52David Sims:Right, now he's Charmeleon. Charmeleon, yeah. But they at one point kicked her off the show because they were like, I gotta tighten the budget. Yes, they kick her off for you. And fans protested so much they brought her back and even still, you're like, she joined late, she was kicked off, the show died, and yet she's been doing it for... Why are you bringing up the original suicide zoom i'm sorry what was this the original they were talking about how like for like dunst and partnett they had done other things but those things felt way more traditional up until that point and this was the first kind of like cool artsy movie they had worked on and the rest of the group were either like non-actors or actors who were kind of at the beginning of their career right or james woods Thank you.

58:33The young cast.

58:34David Sims:And they were all like, it was kind of incredible how well you established an energy, like not in a woo woo way, but you created this feeling of like, we're all in this together. This is the vibe. It is safe. It is protected. It is experimental.

58:52Jane Schoenbrun:it's such a huge part of like because it's you know it's like circus shit right and like it's not just like for the viewers at home yeah it's like if you you gotta yeah we talked about portals a lot on this new movie cool it's just like we're going through a portal guys welcome to the portal we're on the other side of the portal now and you know everyone is so sleep deprived and also like in a manic state of something that like people are ready to buy into that i feel like paul thomas

59:19David Sims:sanderson always talks about time travel uh that like that's what he's trying to push everyone through and even less like because he's not literally depicting periods in a very accurate way most of the time uh it's like the feeling of that but but it is like there are things that are just feel like the technical work and still through everyone being on the same page have a consistent energy to them. But this is a movie where as much as it doesn't feel like we're trying to design that by purpose, everyone was kind of in this suspended state the whole time. There's something like uncanny in both.

1:00:01David Sims:Yeah. In the energy. Yes. And then part of that is Rachel Roberts. So we can talk about how she got involved in this. but like seemingly was a Gene Hackman and Royal Tannenbaum-esque terror to this young cast and this young director in a way that like only helped the movie.

1:00:23Griffin Newman:She's an Oscar nominee from The Sporting Life and they structure everything around. It was going to be this actress Vivian Merchant. She was the original.

1:00:33Jane Schoenbrun:She's the woman, the boarding school. Yes, the mean woman. Mrs.

1:00:39Griffin Newman:Appleyard. And Vivian gets ill. She can't come to Australia. She's a British actor.

1:00:46David Sims:Was married to Harold Pinter?

1:00:48Griffin Newman:Famously super chill guy.

1:00:49David Sims:And Weir was like, the way she would perform his material is what I was looking for in the intensity and the sharpness. Gets ill. They lose her like 10 days before she's supposed to arrive in Australia. They have to find someone in less than 24 hours, basically, to get him on a plane. Rachel Roberts says yes immediately. but also says I won't arrives and says I won't wear her wig. Correct. Which is fair. Right. She said there's a supernatural kind of like tradition in the British theater that if you wear a wig designed for another actor your production is cursed.

1:01:27Griffin Newman:Yes.

1:01:27David Sims:And Peter Weir's like well we're in Australia and this is a movie so maybe that doesn't count. And they were like she was so fucking strong headed about it and beyond that shows up in Australia with her own wig, which is the wig she wears in the movie, and everyone's like, well, we hate that. I'm team her on this one. I agree. She's right. But they all talk about being like, we've got to talk her down from this. She's also just like

1:01:50Griffin Newman:fucking with their, you know, best laid plans and they're making this tiny movie. I'm sure she's pulling rank.

1:01:55David Sims:Come on. That was the whole thing. Like, how much of this is pulling rank versus like, how much of this is she's on her own wavelength and which can be hard to communicate with.

1:02:03Jane Schoenbrun:You're doing a movie. Uh-huh. Let's say, um... Thomas Middleditch. Okay?

1:02:09Griffin Newman:Good job casting that guy. Things are going good.

1:02:12Jane Schoenbrun:Yeah. A lot of great decisions. And he's got his own wig. Probably does. Then they hire you. Yeah. Because he drops out last minute.

1:02:20David Sims:Yeah. I would ask, would you wear that wig? First, I would ask, did he ever wear this wig in his personal life? Or is it only on camera? Has this wig gone to any locations? Meanwhile, you've got the perfect wig sitting at home with you. No, I think she was creatively right. Right. I don't think I'd have any hangups about it in the same way.

1:02:40Griffin Newman:Beyond that, whatever this energy was works in the movie so well. Because you are like, what's wrong with this woman? But in a perfect way.

1:02:47David Sims:It's just so funny that the chain of it is like, what the fuck is she talking about? We don't have the money for another wig. And she's like, don't worry, I'm bringing my own. She shows up with the wig. Everyone's like, we hate this. How do we talk her down from the wig? And it's like the lady killers where they're submitting one person at a time to talk her down from the wig. and the person comes out the door bloody and is like, she's not moving on this. And they're all like, we hated the wig. We still hate the wig. It took 10 years to recognize she was right. She was totally right. While we were filming, we were like, this wig's going to fuck up the entire movie.

1:03:18David Sims:Blahless wig. But that they were all terrified by her. She had a reputation for getting dead drunk. Yes. And doing an impression of a dog that she was apparently very skilled at that would quickly turn into her just being committed to acting like a dog for the rest of a party. My daughter does that a lot. Would start biting people on the legs and shit. She doesn't bite people. She was like Rex Reed's third wife of six. I'm sorry, what? Rex Reed? I'm sorry, not Rex Reed. Yeah, I was about to say. I'm sorry. Rex Reed don't have no wives. Rex Harrison. Excuse me. She was married to Rex Harrison, who then had three wives after her and spent the rest of her life trying to get Rex Harrison back in between divorces.

1:04:04David Sims:She dies of suicide five years after this film. That's too bad. She was 53 years old. Yes. Was like an incredibly extreme, somewhat tortured woman. Yes, totally. And like had this effect on everyone else working on the film. They viewed her the way she sort of, the energy she holds over all the characters in the film. Rex Harrison, legendary stickman. Seven wives.

1:04:29Jane Schoenbrun:But it's not like a nurse ratchet, you know? You're not like, well, she is the breakout.

1:04:33Griffin Newman:No, no, she's very woven into the movie, totally.

1:04:37David Sims:The other, yes, yes. The other fascinating thing is there's the early scene. I think it's basically her introduction where she's on the steps of the school addressing all the students. There will be a dinner served when you're home. And that was maybe her first scene she shot and she does like two takes and she goes to Weir and she's like, could you just put a tape mark on a C stand and send all the actresses away? The way they are looking at me with the level of fear they have in their eyes is throwing me off and I can't concentrate in the dialogue because I feel too bad. And he sends them away and was like, she nailed it in one take.

1:05:15David Sims:And like her theatrical training was like, oh, she can just do whatever you ask her to do. And he was like, she was the first time I'd worked with an actor where I could give such a specific note of try doing it with a little more of this energy and she would make an adjustment dial change that would be almost like it's it's unnoticeable to anyone else yeah

1:05:36Jane Schoenbrun:when i went from working with like non-actors or early career actors to like trained theater

1:05:43David Sims:actors yeah it's a crazy thing to experience that she was so fine-tuned she didn't need a created reality around her that she could just take what you asked of her and give it to you immediately but that the energy throughout had the proper effect on all the other actors.

1:06:00Griffin Newman:She's in one of my favorite movies of all time which is Saturday Night and Sunday Morning. She's amazing in that movie. She rocks and she's amazing in this movie obviously. She is one of the few performances I remember versus the girls where you're right. You're more just like the vibe is so correct. Russell Boyd, the great cinematographer who shoots all of Weir's movies. as you said Griff puts all these filters and nets which shoot close ups at 32 frames a second and then cut that together with 24 frame per second dialogue shots to like basically make things feel strange like is like because he's basically like we have no money right like and we are saying to him like we have no money you have to make things feel weird yeah like you just have to do tricks and so they would basically be like can I shoot you a little faster?

1:06:52Griffin Newman:Don't blink. And then we'll like mix it with regular speed stuff and you'll barely detect what's going on, but it'll just feel odd. And that's his big trick. Does this make any sense, Jane? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:07:06Jane Schoenbrun:Yeah, we did a little frame rate stuff on my new one. A little frame fudging? That's fun.

1:07:12Griffin Newman:A little Wong Kar Wai, you know? Yeah, exactly. Yes. I mean, the king of that. They did very shallow depth of field. obviously they put like gauze over the lens uh i mean it's often literally like bridal veil fabric right they would go buy bridal veil stuff uh john seal is the camera operator on it obviously john seal isn't you know legendary cinematographer uh in his own right um and uh you know they um just wanted to capture this kind of hallucinatory rhythmic mesmeric kind of atmosphere i have a

1:07:47Jane Schoenbrun:question please i'm gonna pose it to you david as the foremost expert on australia here we go jesus why so cool she had this dream he made this movie they made it dreamy they never solved the mystery no but why does this capture australia that is a great question so like what what does

1:08:08Griffin Newman:that what does he mean that screenwriter said this of course cliff green by like he must mean this mood i'm gonna take back that he must mean anything because i am not definitive on anything here but he might mean like this mood of the country quote-unquote civilizing right which is what these this school represents the school is so english right like it feels like yeah because like i feel like so much of australian culture is this push and pull of like well we're from england like so many people who came to australia to settle the country originally right are being sent there from England to the English Empire, British Empire.

1:08:43Griffin Newman:And so we're going to build our own England here. But it's like you're in a completely different environment. There's people already here. You're creating a culture that is not English. But then there's Englishness that's being clung to with this school.

1:08:56David Sims:Well, to be really blunt about it, it's like here's second generation colonizers trying to be like, we got our boots on the ground, now let's start building Britain to different climate. and this is a movie that's literally about like the earth attacking that yeah that's right right

1:09:14Griffin Newman:they're like right they're violating this sort of hostile space like natural space like it's not like a inviting place that they're in no it's pretty i guess it's hot but it's hot there's snakes they weren't about those snakes about 18 times i mean it's the whole thing for me with Australia where, again, my reasonable and correct opinion of what Australia is like is like scorpions far from the sky on you every 30 seconds.

1:09:41Jane Schoenbrun:They're like, girls, you're going on a picnic to Hanging Rock today. I'm like, bring your spear gun.

1:09:49David Sims:Just for context, just for the listener, my brother moved to Australia like less than two weeks ago. He just got there. After watching Hanging Rock. Yeah, but he is as of 21 days ago at the time of this recording. Did he get bit by a snake? No, I'm just saying. It's just so funny to like talk to my brother and be like, I'm loving it here. And David's like, fucking hell has taken over the earth.

1:10:14Griffin Newman:I am well aware that Sydney, I think especially, is incredibly cosmopolitan city. It's very nice. Yeah. I know Australia is nice. I live in America. We can barely feed people here. Like most of these countries are doing all right. It's quite a shitty place right now. Compared to us. Yes. We'd kill to go to Hanging Rock

1:10:31David Sims:Yeah, Australia maybe got

1:10:32Griffin Newman:Get my ass to Hanging Rock

1:10:34David Sims:You got snakes and bats in the woods Here we got them in the fucking Oval Office

1:10:38Jane Schoenbrun:You know what I'm saying? Whoa I was told this was not a political podcast We lied to you

1:10:46David Sims:This is the most political podcast Do you want some whole and or raw milk? Yeah What if that's all in on that this year? Raw ass David I was going to say It is a through line of Weir's work. The Australian films very much feel about that tension of Australia being a culture built hostily upon another land that can never totally be conquered, right? The history, the people, the actual geographic landscape and the flora and fauna and all this sort of stuff. And then when he goes over to Hollywood, it does feel like his movies retain that core theme of the tension between two levels of society, you know, or two aspects of reality fighting each other.

1:11:31Griffin Newman:That is true.

1:11:32Jane Schoenbrun:It is true. Is it not, David? This one is like, I feel like everything that we're saying, yes. And it like, where is then the space for like the thing that I actually remember about like what this movie makes me feel like. And I presume for the Sofia Coppola, the same thing, which is just like, how about all that? Like pent up sexual energy. Well, that's the big thing we have to talk about here.

1:11:52Griffin Newman:Which I assume is another thing. I don't know much about Australia in the turn of the century, but there were sexual revolutions happening all over at that time. People were reckoning more with, like, can we still keep women in a box and teach them to be good, proper girls who, you know, never misbehave, right? Have to wear those awful corsets. Yes, and, you know, there's, you know...

1:12:13David Sims:God, we talk about how hot they must have been making this movie. When you see the guys in, like, fucking four-piece suits...

1:12:19Jane Schoenbrun:Or the policemen in, like, an all-black uniform. Here's my line. I told you I had one line watching this movie. It said, I don't think you should wear white to Hanging Rock. It's a bad choice. They're all, like every girl, flowing white dress. Right. Even without, even if you're not going to go onto Hanging Rock and get lost on Hanging Rock, get swallowed by the rock, you probably don't want to be in that for a picnic at Hanging Rock.

1:12:49David Sims:A brown jumpsuit with Crocs. Yeah. Maybe that's what you wear. it's like oh man those shoes too those are not shoes for the yeah for hanging rock yeah no i think i think this movie is tapping into in a way that's like very similar very linked to twin peaks for me where it's like it's got the stream like logic it's got the central mystery but but the core thing is sort of interrogating the unspeakable like uh uh tension of uh sexual danger for young women in society, right? Like the whole movie is like working off of this kind of dreamlike fetishization of the purity of the kind of young girl in a painting, frolicking on a countryside and what no one wants to discuss, which is like the threat of danger that is surrounding them at all time, just in their very being.

1:13:48Jane Schoenbrun:But also their own. I mean, And like, I think that the thing that's, that's interesting in this one and that you see in Virgin Suicides is like, like, whereas something like, um, and there are elements of it here. Yeah. When that, that guy, I see him in like a top hat, that guy, when he first shows up, he's like in my brain, he's like, and he's like a real like Dickens kind of guy. And he's like, yeah, I'm like, I'm scared about what he's going to do to those girls for sure. but it seems like it takes a backseat to those girls being like I'm taking off my knickers like I gotta get up on this rock they're in this like euphoric

1:14:26Griffin Newman:collect you know they cut the heart cake yeah it feels like you know they're pushing against a transgressive boundary they're pent up they got some energy

1:14:35Jane Schoenbrun:they gotta get out of it

1:14:36David Sims:but that's definitely the paired version suicides thing which is like it's these swarms of young boys who are obsessed with the idea of these girls their look their energy them being unattainable, yet none of them are actually kind of the threat or the answer to what was going on inside of them, which is a little unsolvable. And this movie establishes such a web of men surrounding the rock and observing them, where in a dumber movie, you could see it being a not a whodunit in a traditional sense.

1:15:09Jane Schoenbrun:No, I thought of like I Spit on Your Grave, which would have been around the same time.

1:15:13David Sims:You're pegging all these guys in the vicinity who are all kind of clocking these girls, and yet they're all at a pretty severe distance, and they're all just completely freaked out by what happened. Yeah. And if anything, are trying to rescue them. But it's like, in the Twin Peaks way, and Twin Peaks obviously, like, provides straight answers at a point, but it's... Incredibly straight answer. The most normal answers. But it's more like turning that sexual tension in both directions, What they're feeling internally and what is being projected onto them into a supernatural force that's just hanging over everything.

1:15:52David Sims:Which I think is pretty cool. Really cool.

1:15:54Jane Schoenbrun:And pretty cool for like, there are so many like Lindsay Anderson type movies about like boys going wild at school. I can't think of a ton like between this and Virgin Suicides. Or right, just in general. The pent up like female sexual energy.

1:16:14Griffin Newman:Now if I Google movies about girls at boarding school, it's Google. Yeah.

1:16:19Jane Schoenbrun:I recently. Google will arrest you. I was, I recently asked ChatGPT, which I try to not use, you know, I try to not ask it. But I was like, I'm really curious about this AI. Like if I asked it based on all of the information online about my new movie, which is called Teenage Sex and Death at Camp Miasma. What do you think it is? To tell me the plot of the movie. Yeah. In the style of a Jane Schoenberg movie. Like, I wanted to see how close it could get. And it said to me, I can't tell you that because you're asking me for descriptions of teenage sex. And that is lewd and indecent. And it said, how dare you?

1:16:52Jane Schoenbrun:Yeah. And it said, and I've put you on a list.

1:16:56David Sims:We're like gentlemen, PT. So above board.

1:17:10David Sims:Uh, David? Right. Right? Right. Right. I am correct. That's your name. It's time to take a break from your school or work routine, but stay consistent. That's the tough balance. We should have a school routine.

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1:19:12Griffin Newman:So one consistent scoop, right?

1:19:14David Sims:That's why you like it. Just one scoop and it's over with. I dump it into my shaker filled with eight ounces of water. I shake it up and I drink it and it goes down real nice.

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1:19:55David Sims:It's time to believe in the Hail Mary. Go long. 24, 18, three and a half. Hike. I don't know if that's proper football terminology. I like to say Hail Mary pass. It's one of those sports phrases I like to reappropriate without really knowing what it means. But here's something I do know about. Project Hail Mary, one of the most beloved adventure stories by Andy Weir, is soon becoming a major motion picture. And because this major motion picture is about to be released, There has never been a better time to immerse yourself in the best-selling audiobook. Here's the basic logline. As the sole survivor on a desperate last chance mission, Ryland Grace, must save the earth from disaster in this incredible science-based thriller.

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1:21:26Not the two friends, but there are two friends.

1:21:30David Sims:Listen to the audiobook available now on Audible before the movie starring the aforementioned Ryan Gosling hits theaters on March 20. Project Hail Mary. Listen. Watch. Save the world. That's a really simple three-point actionable plan. Anyway, listen now at audible.com slash Hail Mary.

1:22:02Jane Schoenbrun:here's what i'll say it passes the bechdel test this movie does it does

1:22:06Griffin Newman:not a lot talking more talking about rocks than boys in this one absolutely snakes um but but i

1:22:12David Sims:think you're right that like most especially in a supernatural or a vaguely like a horror mystery adjacent thing there is almost always largely because of how few women got to tell these stories ever in this medium there was almost always this undercurrent of like is this pointedly kind of salacious and titillating are we demonizing the sexuality is the sexuality something that's kind of scary that has to be punished versus it all happening in this kind of like uh it the movie's like mercifully non-literalized in those ways and non-judgmental in a way that now feels like saying that is a ultimate faint praise award but in the 70s you're like this was not a thing anyone was fucking doing totally and like the the like you know this the sickness yeah if you try to

1:23:12Jane Schoenbrun:like find the culprit obviously like the culprit is very diffuse and kind of comes for them all

1:23:17David Sims:yes by the end of the movie right but that it's not a movie about like these girls and their

1:23:22Jane Schoenbrun:hysteria right no and they were like easily struck down in this right no if anything they're like hysteria is the most humanizing thing about them yeah you almost want them to be more hysterical or anyone to be hysterical at a certain point yeah yeah um there's uh um an article i read

1:23:44Griffin Newman:i just called it up on something called cinephilia beyond by uh tim peel and i have no idea what that site is but i'm reading it uh where he talks about like the the um aboriginal idea of um i want to find the exact thing uh dream time uh where that like there's this sort of four aspects of aboriginal dream time the beginning of things the lifeline influence of ancestors the way of life and death the sources of power in life he's like he feels like this movie is about like they are you know encountering an ancient and aboriginal force that like they can't understand in some way that's like the sort of australianness of this movie that it's like we continue to tamper with like a natural environment we we never understood in arriving here right and like trying to civilize it uh he points out something that i certainly would never thought about which is that the girls go right to left when they enter the frame.

1:24:47Griffin Newman:And the hero journey tends to be left to right. And right to left is more unsettling. Have you ever heard that before? I've never considered this like visual language. I'm thinking about reading Hebrew. Absolutely. Or farce. Those classic right to left languages. He's got a lot of other ideas like that that are sort of interesting to consider.

1:25:10David Sims:I feel like when I hear people talk about that, directors talk about that with intentionality it's usually in terms of establishing um a visual language of characters progressing versus regressing it's interesting to make it a kind of like are they going against cultural tides thing rather than like moving backwards in their own story right

1:25:33Jane Schoenbrun:yeah i think to me it's like the thing like that like something like that is only as good as how much it like sticks with you subconsciously afterwards and like when i think about the like language of the girls movement in this movie i think the thing that sticks out more to me is just like how they're really like they're not really captured in close-ups that much until pretty like far into the movie or like it feels much more interested in this like um yeah the this this panoramic painted yeah kind of aesthetic of like you're what you're just seeing like 11 of them

1:26:07David Sims:together wandering around as as sort of almost like a hive mind yeah they're like animals that you know out in their landscape or something did anyone see this movie not knowing that they would

1:26:18Griffin Newman:disappear because it's so much part of the selling of the movie yeah because it's lovely to think about the idea of just watching it being like what is this before they disappear right it's a cool hangout because the first 30 minutes are completely beguiling if you don't know that it's building back to something. Not Big Island, but you're just like kind of squinting, looking for it. Picnic at a hangout rock. But they give it away in the beginning, too. That's what I'm saying. I feel like there's no, it's too bad. And it was the whole

1:26:41David Sims:selling point. Right. Yeah. I'm sure on the TV adaptation, the picnic lasts for six episodes and they only disappear in episode eight. No, no, no. Flashbacks to the picnic.

1:26:50Jane Schoenbrun:Oh, fuck!

1:26:51David Sims:Are you serious?

1:26:52Jane Schoenbrun:Are you serious? No, I don't know. I haven't seen it. Okay, you're right, though. It's flashbacks to the picnic and you see it from a lot of different people's perspective and by the end of it, you've learned something that wasn't clear. It sounds like someone knows

1:27:03Griffin Newman:how the process works for streaming television.

1:27:07David Sims:Natalie Dormer plays the headmistress, right? She does, yeah. She's Mrs. Appleyard. Let's see what the fucking superstructure is. How the wig did they get her in? Oh, God. It's, oh my God. Samara Weaving was in there. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. The series starts with her purchasing the house and being like, I could build a school here. It's that one.

1:27:27Griffin Newman:At least it's not like explorers from like a hundred years ago being like and what should we call this rock it's kind

1:27:33David Sims:of hanging yeah i don't know starts with the rock being straight and then you see the rock hanging

1:27:38Griffin Newman:rock i mean it sounds like the miniseries is a little more what i was describing of like it's got a bunch of theorizing after yeah totally it's like that's how you fill those hours right like what did happen could it have been this could have been that and that's definitely how you improve on this movie it's a movie just screaming out for improvement look tell me there's this one element that I feel like sticks out to me a little bit. Okay, Ben's playing the music. The pan pipes. Yeah. It's so pervasive throughout the entire movie. Yeah. But damn, did I vibe with that shit. Yeah, no, it rocks.

1:28:12Griffin Newman:It made me actually really

1:28:13David Sims:appreciate pan flute again. And just to be clear, Ben isn't playing this from his console. He's whipped out a pan flute and he's blowing hard on that shit in between throwing in some hot takes. I just remember it being such a thing in malls, pan flutes. You'd see them on the street. It's like when a ventriloquist can drink a glass of water while the dummy talks. He's saying and playing the pan flute.

1:28:40Jane Schoenbrun:I think the pan flute has gotten a much worse rap than it deserves. Agreed. I think it's something about Enya and pure moods.

1:28:50Griffin Newman:That's exactly what it is. It's that 90s world music chill out compilation thing. Yeah. The pan flute became associated.

1:28:57Jane Schoenbrun:These are also the ones I'm hearing in my headphones are kind of like, I know pan flutes. Like, I love it deep. You know that? Oh, yeah. Like Rainforest Cafe. Well, you're talking about the best restaurant in the world.

1:29:12Griffin Newman:Basically, they were looking for the sound of the movie to speak to the pan flutes. And they found it. Yeah. And Jim McElroy said, like, he had just watched some, you know, documentary that there'd been this weird haunting music. And he called the producer. They played it. They were like, we love this. It's George Zamfir is the flutist. Flutist. Pan flautist? Sure. And apparently was like, I recorded all that shit years ago. You don't want that. You want some new stuff. And start sending new stuff. And they're like, no, no, no, no, no. We want the like haunting pan flutes. Like that's why we're calling you sir.

1:29:49Griffin Newman:I already missed the pan flute and we just played it for a little while. I could listen to it all day.

1:29:54David Sims:Ben's rolled up on the floor going through pan flute. At this point,

1:29:57Jane Schoenbrun:my main YouTube algorithm suggestion is like, it's, it's like an eight bit image of like a night by a fire. And it's just 10 hours of that pan flute music.

1:30:07David Sims:Yeah. Can I just say, I think, I think you folks are right that there was like a cultural throwing the baby out with the bath water because, Enya and fucking Deep Moods and whatever Racine is like.

1:30:17Griffin Newman:Which by the way, that stuff rocks. This is exactly what I want to say.

1:30:21David Sims:And here's the thing. We actually never. Enigma? We have not gotten anywhere further in relaxing music technology. That was the peak. Everything people have tried to do since then to chill us out backwards.

1:30:36Griffin Newman:Jean-Michel Jarre?

1:30:37Jane Schoenbrun:The X-Files theme with some drums underneath it.

1:30:40Griffin Newman:Fuck. The X-Files theme is so good there's gonna be a new x-files right and ryan kugler's producing his new x-files oh really yeah yeah and like that's fine like i'm all for new x-files yeah i don't care like i'm not i'm not worried about the sanctity of the x-files which is one of the don't touch the messiest franchises to ever exist sure but it will be it'll be set in contemporary times yeah yeah yeah

1:31:01Jane Schoenbrun:but they better not mess with the theme song i asked jillian anderson on set if she was gonna go back and she's in your movie i've heard there's space for her i i forget what she said on my

1:31:11Griffin Newman:Oh, you forgot, huh? Cheer me out. I asked someone that question. I was like, is Duchovny and Anderson back? And I was told, like, there's room for them to be back. Like, it sort of can go either way.

1:31:21David Sims:I got a blockbuster pitch. How about Skinner? What if all three of them try hooking up? It'll work this time, right? Wait, wait, wait. All three, so are you saying Skinner's the third? Hold on a minute.

1:31:31Jane Schoenbrun:Is that his name? Mitch Pelleggi.

1:31:32David Sims:Mitch Pelleggi, yeah. Skinner, yeah. He's still going. Who was the Robert Patrick character? Also, the cigarette-smoking man. Doggett. That guy's still alive.

1:31:40Griffin Newman:He's with us. It's why the Bills can't win the Super Bowl. Cigarette Smoking Man is still alive. Yeah. William B. Davis is the actor. I mean, the thing that happened with X-Files, which is like, I like the X-Files. It's like foundational to my growth growing up and all that, is Chris Carter came back, did the new stuff. And it was, God bless it, so heinous. Yeah, it was rough. It was kind of like, can we take this guy out back? It is crazy.

1:32:06David Sims:Give the X-Files to anyone else. three times he was like, I think I'm ready to return. And people were like, yeah, movie sucks. He's like, got it. Took the feedback. We're returning with a new season. Yay. Fuck that sucks. Don't worry. I heard your feedback. Next season is going to be really different. Just three times in five years.

1:32:26Griffin Newman:Every time DeCompany and Anderson bring it, like it's like, it's just him.

1:32:30Jane Schoenbrun:There's like a sushi restaurant. You remember that one? They're in that sushi. They're stuck in that. And it's like a technology, you know, it's like Siri. It's Siri. It's X-Files doing Siri.

1:32:40Griffin Newman:Sometimes you don't have the rope of what people are thinking about anymore. You know, he let go of the rope. Yeah, 100%. He let go of the rope. It's fine. And, like, you watch The X-Files now, and you're like, if someone did, like, Mulder falls into a coma and a Native American man revives him, now that wouldn't work. But I'm okay with it because it's the 90s, right? 100%. Yeah, exactly.

1:33:01David Sims:But also, is that a perfect example of a show that needed the churn and the pressure of being...

1:33:07Jane Schoenbrun:22 episodes a season.

1:33:08David Sims:Yeah, and needing to, like, spread out the work and bring in other voices. But that's why... And knock it up your own ass and think about it too much.

1:33:14Griffin Newman:That's why 22 episodes is how TV should be. Yeah. Because then you have to make 10 random episodes about bullshit.

1:33:22Jane Schoenbrun:Right.

1:33:22Griffin Newman:Which rocks.

1:33:23Jane Schoenbrun:I asked for... No one will let me take a meeting on the Buffy reboot, but I've been asking, obviously. And the thing I keep saying when I ask is, you have to do 22 episodes. and six of them need to be unwatchable.

1:33:38Griffin Newman:Yeah. Right, right. There should be six that are canonically skippable, but good, you know, in their bad way. Six that are just about like some bullshit, like they pick up a toy and they're like, oh, it's a haunted toy.

1:33:49David Sims:Like Buffy's got like a new cousin that you've never heard about anymore. This is my problem, is that now people go like, I'm going to take four years to make 10 or eight episodes of a season with complete intentionality and control. And you watch it and you're like, still six episodes are bad. It's still, it's always going to be six bad episodes. And it's better that you have a 22 episode season and those six episodes are at least kind of like... Oh my God, a 22 episode.

1:34:17Jane Schoenbrun:I mean, I've been thinking about this because I'm working on TV and like a 22 episode season. Also like the holiday episode of Dead Art.

1:34:26Griffin Newman:Absolutely.

1:34:26Jane Schoenbrun:Well, yes. Sweeps Week is gone. Where did Sweeps Week go?

1:34:30Griffin Newman:Like Sweeps Week is like, everyone wants to fuck each other for three weeks on the show And then all the repression gets stuffed right back in the bottle. You know, like, we don't do it again for a while.

1:34:38David Sims:It is a crazy thing to consider that even the biggest TV shows used to be able to go, like, for one week only, Bruce Willis. And the ratings would spike up by 10 million people. It didn't matter if everyone else had, like, I haven't watched that in two years. They're like, well, I got to see the Bruce episode. I got to see the episode where it's all dream sequences or whatever. The third Rock 3D episode after the Super Bowl or whatever. There you go.

1:35:02Griffin Newman:Yeah. I mean, also episodes after the Super Bowl. Another thing that's gone. I know they still exist, but like I want to see House watch the Super Bowl, right? Like, you know, or like Terrell Owens appears, whatever. Whatever dumb shit they would do to acknowledge.

1:35:18David Sims:What I liked was the calculation of, even if this episode isn't in conversation with the Super Bowl, it has to be the biggest episode we need ever done.

1:35:26Jane Schoenbrun:A little something extra.

1:35:27David Sims:It needs to be worthy of the post-Super Bowl slot. TV used to be so good. Jane the TV show that you were doing is based on a very specific fixed work and one we have talked about for years because so many blank check filmmakers have like flirted with adapting it and it's a thing that we are constantly telling Ben he needs to read and when it was announced that you are adapting Charles Burns' Black Hole Ben was like fuck it's finally time. If Jane's doing it I gotta read it. Did you read it? Not yet. But I'm gonna do it. He's saying he's gonna do it. I'm gonna do it. I'm really in the comics late.

1:35:59Griffin Newman:I will make a promise that within a month when this episode is released, you'll devour it. Once you start it. Yeah. I love those Charles Burns Tintin things. You ever read those? No. X'd out.

1:36:12David Sims:Really good.

1:36:12Griffin Newman:You know what's great too?

1:36:14David Sims:I'll say it's pan flute. Yeah, let's circle back to pan flute. It's just good. And maybe let's play it again. Sure.

1:36:25David Sims:Now that's nice. Slower. Okay. This is your thing, Jane. this is your jam?

1:36:30Jane Schoenbrun:No, it doesn't. Not low enough? There it is. There it is. There it is.

1:36:33David Sims:Slightly, yeah, octave down. David, you love like spas and massages and shit like that. I do, and this is what's playing, baby. I love this stuff. Because I got a massage for the first time in a very long time. Where'd we go? Somewhat recently. I'll tell you off mic. Okay, fine. And they were playing like the fucking techno version of this. Yeah, sometimes they'll do that. That's what I hate is these hip places feel like, oh, pan flute is lame. I can't play it. And I'm like, you're stressing me out right now? Yeah, it's time to return with a V. I will calm down.

1:37:01Jane Schoenbrun:I think it has something to do with some of that Lilith Fair scorn. Sure. You know, kind of spilled over into the pan flute. What else rules Lilith Fair?

1:37:12David Sims:Bring back Lilith Fair. Sarah McLaughlin. Good. Pan flute, good.

1:37:15Griffin Newman:And you're good. Now, is this just that I'm growing older and I miss my youth? Yeah, are we lame now? Probably. Almost definitely. So the girls disappeared. not to do the plot of picnic hanging rock which is a you know not a plotless film but a loosely

1:37:33David Sims:scripted film i guess they go up to the rock yeah they take a nap a kind of mysterious eerie nap and you kind of want to take a nap in the best way they're on good they they seem like they're on drugs yes they're in some kind of odd it's like euphoric right like they're in a state

1:37:49Griffin Newman:they've worked themselves into this like because they probably never get to do something like this

1:37:53David Sims:and be like remotely independent. But it also, it looks like a cult-like ritual despite you knowing that there was not a kind of intentionality or planning. They all just kind of like lay down at the same time. Except one of them knew

1:38:04Jane Schoenbrun:she was going to disappear.

1:38:06David Sims:Right. That's Glasses Girl had the premonition, right?

1:38:09Griffin Newman:Is it Glasses Girl? And isn't she talking about a dream within her dream? She's like quoting Edgar Allan Poe or whatever.

1:38:14Jane Schoenbrun:I wrote one line that I really liked. What did they say? They said,

1:38:18David Sims:Joseph Gordon-Levitt was chasing me up the walls. Isn't that what she's saying?

1:38:22Jane Schoenbrun:Where is it? I have it here somewhere. Most human beings are without purpose, but they're performing some function unknown to them. Oh, fuck. Good shit. Shit rocks.

1:38:34David Sims:That's like the pan flute of quotes.

1:38:38Griffin Newman:And then they wake up. The bugs crawl on them when they're sleeping. Yes, although not on the girls who don't get taken and then eventually return. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But yes. It was Miranda, I think, is the one who says that she is going to disappear. Yes. Miranda's kind of the main one. That's so Miranda. And she's a lawyer, right? And she's a little spikier than the other girls. Evan Handler? Yes. No, that's Charlotte. I mean, Evan Handler plays Charlotte's husband. That's what you're referring to. Miranda's the one who marries the guy who's like, I'm like that. Right. With glasses? And then in the new show, she's exploring her sexuality.

1:39:20Griffin Newman:There's just a Che DS. There's Che DS. Really? She explores her sexuality. She sure does. You ever watched, what's it called? And Just Like That? I haven't seen an episode. How many episodes

1:39:30David Sims:did they have per season? Not enough. 22. I'm going to make this case. Because people were like, it's kind of demented. And I'm like, imagine if they got 22. Imagine the shit they would have done if they had to do 20. They did 10 episodes a season.

1:39:43Jane Schoenbrun:No, I think it's like America is waiting in bated breath to see what the pit season eight feels like. Yeah. Oh, God.

1:39:49Griffin Newman:But the pit is right. I mean, that's why people are freaking out about the pit. Because, you know, it's fucking like it feels like old TV. Turn it out.

1:39:57David Sims:Isn't this some of the juice of the Taylor Sheridan shows, too? I keep reading these clickbait headlines where you're like, I haven't seen any of them. Belly Bob Thornton answers a door with a boner. And I'm like, this sounds like when TV was good. Well, that's also that even if those shows are 10 episodes each, he's writing all of them.

1:40:12Griffin Newman:So he's getting so tired.

1:40:14David Sims:He's found a way to get into the psychological headspace of 22 episodes a season.

1:40:20Jane Schoenbrun:And not enough people, not enough main characters, but not lead characters dying in car crashes. Perfect. Oh my God. Or maybe not die. Episode 14.

1:40:29Griffin Newman:Episode ends with car accidents, you know, just like a car, like, flipping over. Yeah. And then it's to be continued. And then there's Native Americans bring Malder back.

1:40:38David Sims:The greatest shit in the world was when... That happened to the X-Files, like, season two. It didn't take them long. When TV was, like, produced on, like, a podcast schedule where you're like, they're filming the episode now I will see in a month. And you would read like Michelle Rodriguez and Cynthia Watros got arrested for drunk driving. Yeah. And then three weeks later, it's like, oh, both of them are dead. Fuck, Ana Lucia bought it. Nothing was under wraps.

1:41:01Griffin Newman:R.I.P. Ana Lucia. She was a wild one. She was. She was great. Did you watch Lost or were you not lost? Oh, yeah, of course. Yeah. I remember we once talked about Firefly. Oh, of course. You were activated by the Save Firefly thing long ago.

1:41:15Jane Schoenbrun:Yeah, that was my originary trauma.

1:41:18David Sims:Right. Was there a campaign to like send in something? Were people sending in something?

1:41:24Jane Schoenbrun:It was kind of the original. There definitely was. What are they? What was the object? Brown coats, maybe? Well, that's how

1:41:32David Sims:Firefly fans identify themselves. Yes, they call themselves brown coats. They might have also sent some coats in. I just always liked that thing where you'd be like, this network has threatened to cancel a show. I would be scared to rewatch Firefly in 2026. 20 ,000 people sent in plastic knives because it's their way of communicating to the president of the network that they want their show back.

1:41:54Griffin Newman:Jane, I haven't watched it since, yeah, since college. I wonder, I truly wonder, because I really loved Firefly so much, and it was important to me. It, like, lifted me out of a deep depression. Did they have a word that they used instead of fuck? Yes, they did. What is it? Because they had the whole, like, they would speak Chinese as well.

1:42:15Jane Schoenbrun:Oh, totally.

1:42:17Griffin Newman:I can't remember what they would say. But what was, of course, Battlestar Galactic had frack. Yeah. I remember the show, it was the CBS Apocalypse show, Jericho, built a Ferris wheel. Right. Right? Yes. There was some show that built a Ferris wheel outside the office of whoever ran CBS. And she was just like, fine, Jesus. And like, oh, it's another season. Yeah. What are you doing?

1:42:46David Sims:That just felt like there's something that felt so innocent to that versus like the Snyder cult is building bombs or whatever they're doing. So the girls wake up and they walk.

1:42:58Jane Schoenbrun:Anthrax in the mail.

1:42:59Griffin Newman:The clocks stop at noon. All this spooky shit happens. And they walk in a trace like into a crevice, I guess. Yeah. And Edith just screams. And that's it. Well, I feel like the four girls break off before. Yeah, they've already climbed up to the rock. Or climbed to the...

1:43:15Jane Schoenbrun:And there's one who's like, no, no, we got to go back. Right.

1:43:18Griffin Newman:Yeah. And then they come back later and they're like, the girls are missing. Right. The rest of the class comes back late at night.

1:43:27David Sims:Yes.

1:43:27Jane Schoenbrun:I love that scene.

1:43:28David Sims:Yeah. With, like, talking to the headmistress. Yeah, because you're like, if I was that headmistress, you're really in her shoes figuring out something's gone wrong. Well, she just, like, launches immediately into, like, reprimanding and, like, laying down the law. And then the other adults have to come and be like, you don't understand what just fucking happened. Right.

1:43:46Griffin Newman:But we're also skipping over the rocks are talking, kind of. They're like shaking and making noises. They're seeing vapor kind of coming out. It's so mysterious. I was really just so hypnotized by it. Yeah, no, it's so awesome. And there's no way to define even what it really is. They got a recording of an earthquake that they used for some of those weird primal noises. They would slow it down and fudge with it and stuff. But that was what they're doing. But maybe what it is, it's the rock's tummy rumbling because he's so hungry. He's like, need girls.

1:44:23Jane Schoenbrun:Again, the rock is not very big to my eyes when we see it in wide shots. It's kind of like an aggro crag style set. Thank you for acknowledging the importance of the aggro crag.

1:44:35Griffin Newman:And I do hope the Edgar Cag was specifically inspired by Picnic. And we should say that Mo will be on the next episode.

1:44:42David Sims:Yeah, Mo is on the next episode.

1:44:44Griffin Newman:But like the kids who lost it should have just been like disappeared into a void. Yeah. And it's like they shall never return. But you're kind of like where did these girls even find space to disappear? Right. That's what like they just go behind a rock and like, you know. And then of course one of them is eventually found like in there.

1:45:02David Sims:Yes. Well, we'll get to that. Permission to make a bad joke.

1:45:04Griffin Newman:Yeah. Okay. Is the show a little excitement?

1:45:08David Sims:Yes, make your bad joke. Permission to make a great joke?

1:45:10Griffin Newman:Yeah, let's hear it.

1:45:11David Sims:Okay. Is the reason they disappeared because it was The Rock's cheat date? And he eats whatever he wants on his cheat day. Right. After like six days of grilled chicken breasts and shit and terramonic tequila. He gets to eat three Victorian girls. He has like a stack of 15 pancakes.

1:45:32Griffin Newman:Will The Rock even go to the Oscars? It's a really good question. The Masking Machine just got the one nom.

1:45:36David Sims:It did, for makeup.

1:45:38Griffin Newman:Which, excellent makeup.

1:45:39David Sims:Don't you think he'll go to fucking plug live-action Moana?

1:45:42Jane Schoenbrun:Oh, I thought you were asking about Hanging Rock. My joke was I was conflating the two.

1:45:46Griffin Newman:That actually feels like a Conan, like I wish Conan could host in a picnic at Hanging Rock here. Yeah. Like he's like, and now the rock from Picnic at Hanging Rock. And then he just starts screaming.

1:45:56Jane Schoenbrun:What was the last picnic at Hanging Rock here at the Oscars? It's been a little while. I made this joke with the AR-15 from Weapons. That should host you.

1:46:04Griffin Newman:where it's just like costume design is integral to you know it's just floating like this

1:46:08David Sims:well with Dune Sandworm playing the piano was fun it was great but I do want now that like Conan's returning for a second year I want him to go full like character parade Conan Preparation H.

1:46:21Jane Schoenbrun:Raymond right where it's the masturbating bear

1:46:23David Sims:do like 20 anthropomorphized objects from Oscar nominated films

1:46:27Griffin Newman:no the pitch is and he should steal this the fucking opening video is Amy Madigan makes him run like this through all of the other movies.

1:46:35Jane Schoenbrun:That's good.

1:46:36Griffin Newman:Right? Like, she just can't... Because, like, Conan and Amy Madigan is cooking with gasoline. Like, the two of them will be great together. Yeah. And then he's just doing this. I mean... Running through Marty Supreme

1:46:47David Sims:or whatever. It was their intent to bring back the... I know. They were going to do it. It got fooled for a couple reasons that make sense. Yeah. But I'm hoping, I'm praying... This episode comes out the day after the Oscars. The day after the Oscars. I hope Conan did a great job. I hope he went through all the movies. I hope he physically ran through them all. I'm sure he wouldn't.

1:47:06Jane Schoenbrun:How did Blue Moon do in those nominations? Two.

1:47:08Griffin Newman:Best actor, best screenplay. Not bad. You like Blue Moon? I loved Blue Moon. Blue Moon rocks. I love that film. We need more bar movies. You know my favorite thing about Blue Moon?

1:47:17David Sims:That they had to take an approach to shooting around him, being fake short. Yeah. In a way that makes him feel like a Muppet.

1:47:26Jane Schoenbrun:Yeah.

1:47:27David Sims:That it feels like the visual strategy they employ for incorporating a Muppet into a real world set. I mean, when, when, what's his name,

1:47:34Jane Schoenbrun:E.B. White? Yeah. When E.B. White shows up as the like, you know, the celeb cameo. Yes. That's when you know.

1:47:41Griffin Newman:Like when, like he's the fucking Captain America of Blue Moon. It is crazy that that movie. Where they're like, and he's like, and I'm thinking writing a book about a little mouse.

1:47:50David Sims:It is insane that movie is so good that it does like six walk hard. It does like here's little boy version. Baby Stephen Sondheim, right.

1:47:58Griffin Newman:And I don't ding it for any of them. No, it's awesome. Blue Moon is a blast. That was just, I was hooting and hollering and feeling crazy about, you know, Lorin's heart.

1:48:06David Sims:Yeah. Oh my God. I went through the arc of being like, yeah, you know, this is good for what it is. It's fun. To by the end being like, is this the most devastating thing I've ever seen? Does this rock and roll so hard? Linklater's good. Yeah.

1:48:18Jane Schoenbrun:I went to see it. I did my own double feature at the Little Movie Theater upstate. I was playing both that and the... The Black Phone 2? No, yeah, I did see Black Phone 2. No, Nouveau Vogue. Nouveau Vogue, yeah.

1:48:30David Sims:Because there were two different kind of Barbenheimers you could do. You could do Nouveau Moon, or you could do Black and Blue. Blue Phone 2. You could do the two hops.

1:48:42Jane Schoenbrun:Oh, that's true. That's true, because I forgot about Ethan Hawke. Ethan Hawke, not really in Black Phone 2 that much. I think he phoned that one in. Literally.

1:48:50Griffin Newman:Did you like Nouveau Vogue?

1:48:52Jane Schoenbrun:Not really.

1:48:52Griffin Newman:Yeah.

1:48:53Jane Schoenbrun:It was okay. You know what? I was also hungry, and I knew I was doing the second one, and so I did leave halfway through to go get Chicken Parm Euro.

1:49:01Griffin Newman:Well, I mean, Chicken Parm Euro?

1:49:03Jane Schoenbrun:That didn't put the movie over the line for you. You buried the lead on this. Let's talk about Black Phone 2, though, because... Please. I feel like I, you know, choose your battles in terms of, like, I'm a filmmaker. You don't want to talk shit. You don't want to talk too much shit about other filmmakers, but one film I feel comfortable talking shit about is Black Phone 2. I have to say. Did you like Black Phone 1? I didn't, but... Neither did I. I think that it's a whole different ballgame. Sure. Yes. I only saw Black Phone 2 because people were like, but this one's kind of fun. It's kind of like Nightmare.

1:49:37Jane Schoenbrun:It makes it Nightmare on Elm Street. Right, because he's dead, so he's just like a weird monster.

1:49:40David Sims:The first one felt like a pretty complete statement. Yeah. And I was puzzled by them attempting to make a second one. And then I saw the trailer, and I'm like, if you're using this as a way to backdoor the new Black Door... A new kind of like Blumhouse-y like... Yeah.

1:49:55Griffin Newman:You know, whatever. Like there's a new, like Black Phone takes his hat.

1:49:59David Sims:There's a new bad guy. Right. The phone goes to hell. Like whatever.

1:50:02Jane Schoenbrun:But I would say the grabber. The grabber.

1:50:05David Sims:Try harder. He grabbed. Absolutely. Try harder. He grabbed people. I understand that was his name in the first one, but if he's going to become supernatural, he's got to rebrand.

1:50:12Jane Schoenbrun:Yeah.

1:50:13David Sims:Yeah. So to what? Phony? Freddy Grabber.

1:50:17Jane Schoenbrun:Yeah. He. Grabby Kruger. Full spoilers ahead for Black Phone 2. Warning. No one dies. Good. He kills not a single victim. Good. Everyone survives.

1:50:29Griffin Newman:Right.

1:50:30Jane Schoenbrun:Everyone is Christian. Good. The Christian stuff in that movie is amazing. It's so... Did you guys... Neither of you guys saw Black Phone 2. You saw it, didn't you, David? I didn't see it. No, I'm speaking into the point here. No, no, no.

1:50:43David Sims:I heard about this. I think it's good because for too long, these horror films have presented lead characters with abominable behavior and actions that I don't condone, and these filmmakers are presenting it like they're heroes. I watch these Jason movies. I'm supposed to be rooting for this guy. He's killing people. I like to hear that the grabber is obeying the law.

1:51:03Jane Schoenbrun:But there's this kind of like the attitude that the movie takes is that being a Christian is sexy. What? Yeah. Like in a good way? Yeah. That like there's like one character who's like, and I believe in God. And then someone else is like, that's sexy. It's really, this would have been better if you guys had seen it. Is the grabber Jewish?

1:51:24David Sims:Like, what is the framework here?

1:51:27Jane Schoenbrun:The grabber is basically... Black phone, it's like a camp, right? Yeah.

1:51:32Griffin Newman:There's some element of that.

1:51:33Jane Schoenbrun:They get him to a camp somehow, and guess what is lurking at this camp? Grabber? A phone. A payphone. Oh, sure. And guess who's calling on that payphone? Grabber! Yeah. Okay, good. I got it that time. And also the grabber's victims again.

1:51:49Griffin Newman:Oh.

1:51:50Jane Schoenbrun:Like they're just repeating the trope of the black phone? It's like, oh, the classic thing that happens with the grabber is that the dead. They talk to you. Yeah. The victims help you and pump you up. Right. Which I didn't really like in the first film.

1:52:03David Sims:When they pick up the phone, is Ethan Hawke like, they offered me 10 % of first dollar gross and I didn't even have to come to set.

1:52:12Griffin Newman:This really worked out with Sinister and The Purge.

1:52:16Jane Schoenbrun:He did one day on set of Blackphone 2. That's what I heard. And he is grabbing on the storm.

1:52:24David Sims:Also, like, honestly, like, do not bemoan Ethan Hawke pulling that off. Nice work if you can grab it.

1:52:32Jane Schoenbrun:He's got one of those, like, you know, like the grabby kind of hand things.

1:52:36David Sims:Are you fucking kidding me? No, I wish.

1:52:38Jane Schoenbrun:Like one of the toys? Yeah, he's got a couple of those toys, you know, extender. You're making this sound excellent. Most of the movie takes place on, like, a CGI frozen lake. I will not be tricked.

1:52:50Griffin Newman:into watching this movie is I was tricked into watching the first Black Phone by some people being like, eh, it's kind of interesting. And I watched it. I was like, no, thank you. But it has the same, like, pretension of seriousness to it. That's what I find is often true with Scott Derrickson movies.

1:53:04David Sims:Excuse me, it's about trauma.

1:53:06Griffin Newman:Yeah. The Black Phone is about trauma. I recently watched his Day the Earth Should Still remake. Don't know why I did that. It's not very good. He's made a couple movies I like. Name them. Dr. Doctor. Give me the news. I like Sinister. I think Sinister is like pretty effective. Like I don't think it's like some masterpiece.

1:53:27Jane Schoenbrun:I don't know that I've seen Sinister.

1:53:27Griffin Newman:I never saw Sinister. Sinister is like actually gnarly. Content projector? Fucked up home movies.

1:53:36Jane Schoenbrun:It seems like there's something fundamentally at odds in the Black Phone 1 thing where it's like it wants to be like this guy is like actually just like a pedophile. and we're just going to like linger in his like absolute grotesque shit. And also like, we don't like that.

1:53:54Griffin Newman:We want you to know that that... The grabber's no good.

1:53:57Jane Schoenbrun:Yeah.

1:53:57Griffin Newman:I think the grabber actually should be arrested and maybe like taken to court for some of his crimes. Maybe the justice system needs to have a say on the grabber. The grabber meets Lady Gaga in prison. Someone's got to save the grabber. Yeah, I guess that's kind of it. I mean, I sort of enjoy Doctor Strange, but like that you know the marvel movies are always a grab bag of who really grabber bag yeah indeed uh that's about it because i didn't like exorcism of emily rose which is sort of his breakout never saw that one deliver us from evil that's a movie he made never saw that one no i haven't seen that one yeah that's an f cinema score i think i'm trying to figure out what

1:54:32Jane Schoenbrun:movies to play at my birthday party and i was googling um best comedies and i came across a letterboxd list that he the derrickson yeah a scott derrickson letterboxd list of the 100 best comedies of all time. And you're going to do those? It was a good list. He seems to have perfectly good lists. Do you remember his number one? It was chronological. I don't think that was a number one. It was more like 100 years, 100 last. But you wanted to do comedies. I was looking for inspiration.

1:55:03Griffin Newman:Do you do a theme for your birthday?

1:55:05Jane Schoenbrun:You know, I did last year. What did you do last year? Well, actually, this year I was like, I'm thinking I might do VR as a theme and my best friend was like, wasn't that last year's theme?

1:55:15Griffin Newman:It's like Lawnmower Man.

1:55:17Jane Schoenbrun:And then I was like, no, last year's theme was time travel. And then my best friend was like, didn't you show Strange Days last year? Great movie. There's no time travel in that movie. No. No.

1:55:26David Sims:There is VR. Squids.

1:55:27Jane Schoenbrun:I don't think I'm going to do a theme this year. Fair enough. I think I just, I want to show Pee-wee's Big Adventure.

1:55:32David Sims:I mean, it cannot go wrong. I like that Pee-wee and Picnic now get to sit next to each other in the Criterion closet.

1:55:41Griffin Newman:Oh, sure. Alphabetically?

1:55:42David Sims:Yeah, close to.

1:55:44Jane Schoenbrun:Absolutely. Yeah. Performance in between. The peas, man. That's where it's at. Perfumed nightmare. Yeah.

1:56:01David!

1:56:02David Sims:Yes. Ah, who's that? No, David, in fact, I see why you were confused. It sounded like a doorbell or perhaps even the ringing of a phone to introduce an ad read character. But in fact, it's not an ad read character. It's an exciting new ad read prop. My hand chimes. Okay. What? Oh.

1:56:25Griffin Newman:Then why are you ringing those?

1:56:27David Sims:Well, I'm ringing my ceremonial chimes to announce our new sponsor on the podcast, Chime.

1:56:32Griffin Newman:Chime! Listen, Chime is changing the way people bank. Not like this old school banks that charge you when you overdraft, charge you with monthly fees. Built for you, not the 1%. And it's not another banking app. It unlocks smarter banking for everyday people with products like MyPay, which gives you access to up to$500 a year paycheck anytime and getting paid up to two days early with direct deposit. Some old banks still don't do this. There's no overdraft fees. Yeah. No minimum balance fees. Yeah. No monthly fees, like I said. It makes your everyday spending work harder by delivering real rewards and progress.

1:57:09Griffin Newman:It's got some stacked benefits, if you ask me. You can earn up to 3 % APY on savings. That's seven times higher than a traditional bank. Add that to the stack. Rated five stars by USA Today. Real humans, 24-7. Rated five stars is the customer service. Well. So the people will pick up the phone when you call them. And you go, good job. Thank you for that good service. Sounds like you're sort of dragging out the call there, but I mean, that's nice enough. And they've got a great way to build credit history with your own money. They've got a new card that unlocks safer credit building cashback.

1:57:42David Sims:That's the sound of me running the card against the chimes.

1:57:45Griffin Newman:Again, no annual fees, no interest, no strings attached. You're going to get 1.5 % cash back on eligible chime card purchases. There are strings attached to the chimes. It's just the structure of how chimes work. When you get qualifying direct deposits, okay? My younger self would have benefited from this. I needed something like this back when I was overdrafting once in a while. Lil David. Hit it with those fees. The adventures of Lil David. You could say I was a little bit odd in those days.

1:58:13David Sims:You were a little odd. A little odd. Okay. I was ODing. Overdrafting. It took a while to get there. And you know what? It could have meant some other things.

1:58:23Griffin Newman:And I'm glad I did it. Good. Good. Chime is not just smarter banking. It's the most rewarding way to bank. Join the millions who are already banking fee-free today. It takes just a few minutes to sign up. Head to chime.com slash blank check. That is chime.com slash blank check.

1:59:03David?

1:59:04David Sims:Yes. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. We're both stroking our chins. Okay. And narrowing our eyes and kind of staring off into the middle distance. Do you know why? I don't. Because we're trying to thoughtfully build a wardrobe. Oh, and we don't mean a piece of furniture. Put that hammer and nail down. We're talking about what goes inside the wardrobe. And I'm not talking about a portal to Narnia either. I'm talking about the clothes.

1:59:29Griffin Newman:That's right. You know, you want premium fabrics and you want considered design. You want every...

1:59:34David Sims:And you want pieces that mix well and last, obviously.

1:59:36Griffin Newman:That's true. And they should be everyday essentials that feel effortless to wear. Yeah. And dependable.

1:59:41David Sims:Even as the seasons change, as they are doing currently in New York. They should be items that you love so much that you would be crestfallen should some snow from Narnia creep in. Oh, yeah. And Mr. Tumnus shows up offering you Turkish delight. I know the queen does that. He's like, can I borrow pants? And you're like, what's that going to do to the pants? Right.

1:59:59Griffin Newman:You have like horse feet. We just have different leg shapes. Okay, look, they've got lightweight cashmere sweaters. I've got a couple of those. They got short sleeve Mongolian cashmere polos. I think I might need to get some of those. Linen bottoms, shorts, tees, and 100 % pima cotton. I won't settle for 99. European jersey linen, all kinds of versatile pieces that make a wardrobe work season to season. We're talking about queens. They work directly with factories. They cut out the middleman, so you're not paying for brand markup or fancy retail. stores. You're just playing for quality clothing.

2:00:30Griffin Newman:That's all it is. Just quality clothing. Cash beer is 100 % Montgolian. That's the luxury stuff, okay? Yeah. The Pima Continent's long staple. It stays soft. It doesn't pill. That European jersey linen, breathable and lightweight, okay? It's rated between 4.5 and 5 stars by thousands of people wearing it every day.

2:00:47David Sims:I was worried there might be a 4.4 in there somewhere. Terrible! They only partner with factories that meet rigorous standards for craftsmanship and ethical production. So I've got all kinds of Quince stuff.

2:00:58Griffin Newman:As I point out all the time, I also, my bed sheets. Yeah. Okay? Yeah. My comforter, Quince. And they're hitting? Yeah.

2:01:05David Sims:They're the best. I love being in bed. Falling asleep well?

2:01:07Griffin Newman:Right now, go to quince.com slash check for free shipping and 365-day returns. That's a full year to build your wardrobe and love it, and you will. Now available in Canada too. Don't keep settling for clothes that don't last. Go to quince.com slash check for free shipping and 365-day returns. quince.com slash check. Thank you.

2:01:39Griffin Newman:What do we discuss? Well, the girls are gone and this has been reckoned with, but I'm like, what are the other things we need to talk about?

2:01:48Jane Schoenbrun:Here's some things in this movie. There are these late movie revelations that I kind of did a double take on. we find out that now we're getting really deep into the lore, but that Sarah who's essentially the main character.

2:02:05Griffin Newman:So Sarah is sort of the main character, the girl who doesn't get to go on the trip. The survivor, right.

2:02:11Jane Schoenbrun:Is she the sister? Of, yes. Of that other guy? Yes.

2:02:17David Sims:Why? How? That's one of the I will say the deleted scenes in the theatrical cut. Maybe explain that. No, no, I watched them. they they're more in depth on that yeah and i think that feels more elusive in the director's cut where you're like why is this kind of just nodded at without really there's like five minutes

2:02:38Jane Schoenbrun:left in the movie and all of a sudden i'm finding out that those two characters who never interacted

2:02:41David Sims:are your brother and sister yeah there's like earlier scenes in the theatrical cut that are not bad but i understand him just being like no this is not where the action is right um

2:02:53Griffin Newman:I mean, they basically just got separated because she was at the orphanage and then I guess somehow ended up at the school and they lost touch. And then it turns out that her tuition hasn't been paid at a certain point. By some benefactor. Whatever guardian. Right.

2:03:10David Sims:But it's a reflection of like if you are not born into class and wealth in this kind of society, right? Yeah. Like there are two pathways. They can put a man to work and they can try to, like, finish a young woman to be married off to someone rich. And so she's sort of sent into this, like, coddled training ground to try to make her a proper lady of value.

2:03:37Griffin Newman:Whereas he is sent to work for some well-off family but befriends their son. Yes. Whose son? The rich family that— That other boy. Bernie works for that other boy. And they together are in the woods when they witness the girls walking to the top of the mountain. And then, right. Okay. Yeah, yeah.

2:04:01David Sims:And then, yeah, make this effort to try to, if not rescue them, at least try to follow up and understand what happened.

2:04:09Jane Schoenbrun:Did this come after the go-between? The Losey film?

2:04:13Griffin Newman:Incredible movie. Thank you for shouting it out. Good question. That film came out in 1971. Yeah. I feel like there's some go-between bleeding into this one. A movie that... My father's favorite movie of all time was The Go-Between. No, Saturday Night and Sunday Mornings was his... No, that's the movie that my dad was like,

2:04:33David Sims:that movie is about my life when I was that age. Right, the way my father reacted to Marty Supreme. That's you, that's the kid at the end. The way my father reacted to Blackphone 2.

2:04:44Griffin Newman:Grabber!

2:04:46David Sims:I always wonder why your name was Jane Grabber

2:04:48Griffin Newman:and hyphenated but Go Between Todd Haynes used the score from Go Between for May December just used it and when I brought it up to him he was like yeah it rocks

2:05:00Jane Schoenbrun:right doesn't that movie rock it does rock also that book is incredible the book is incredible I read it

2:05:06Griffin Newman:a few years back it is incredible so right so you have Michael who's the English boy the rich boy who is just like haunted by that I guess haunted by that he can't fix it right is that the simplest way to put it he has these vivid dreams of Miranda where she's sort of like a bird right or a swan but like it's like it feels like he's also just like I was there I was watching he was the last they were the last two people to see them and I like let them disappear

2:05:33Jane Schoenbrun:am I wrong to say that like it feels like the film there's something like a little rapey with those two

2:05:39Griffin Newman:there's something at least like creepily voyeuristic about what they're doing they're like look a bunch of girls. Like, they also just kind of

2:05:45David Sims:appear in front of them. The movie is playing off the energy of something significantly worse and more inexplicable happening before anything bad is able to happen from their actions.

2:05:57Jane Schoenbrun:Like, if I was writing the miniseries, those boys would be suspects. Sure. Right. Yes.

2:06:05Griffin Newman:And it's quiet in the movie, but it is, you know, it's not hard to read that in.

2:06:09David Sims:And then instead, they become almost obsessed with... Figuring it out. They almost feel a little emasculated by the fact that it's not a thing they can solve. They can't solve it. They can't be like Prince Charming and save the princesses. But I also think part of it is the inexplicable nature of it is breaking their brains. To witness something that they cannot even get their heads around.

2:06:34Griffin Newman:But his buddy is Bertie, Albert, right? Who's like Australian. Albert's the one who finds Irma the one who doesn't disappear but doesn't know what happened and like her feet are untouched right so it's like it's not even it's like she does seem to have maybe been suspended and returned

2:06:53David Sims:does he go pass out ends up with the same bruises and then when they find him he has the swath of cloth in his hand totally

2:07:02Griffin Newman:no it's Michael who does that and then Albert goes to the rock after that happens finds Irma She doesn't know what happened. And then Albert is the one who, yes, recounts the dream where, yes, it's sort of revealed that Sarah was his sister.

2:07:16Jane Schoenbrun:Yeah.

2:07:17Griffin Newman:I guess. And that she, in this dream, essentially said, I've got to go. And then it's revealed that she, you know, threw herself off the building and crashed through the greenhouse. This is the end of the movie. Well, now you're, yeah, you're jumping all the way to death. I'm just telling you.

2:07:31David Sims:Because, no, this whole, as we were saying, the whole other thing is that she's told Mrs. Appleby. headmistress whatever yeah um that they're behind on the payments right and she's also doing the brass tacks of like the great tragedy in her eyes of three girls going missing is that's three fewer tuitions yeah sucks in the immediate beyond even the fact that now the reputation of the school they're surrounded with these horrible fucking vibes and the business is never going to recover from this yeah so yeah i don't think i want to send my kid to the hanging rock school But so just as a way to immediately cut costs, she's just like...

2:08:07David Sims:I'm sending them to looming rock. Right. Or maybe Black Phone 2 school or whatever. Let's kick this freeloader to the curb. Yes. She's becoming more cruel and merciless in this.

2:08:19Griffin Newman:And she's expressed that she had a terrible experience at the orphanage previously. But she...

2:08:25Jane Schoenbrun:I don't know. But then... But the headmistress, in the end, it's like she's coping with something too, it almost feels like.

2:08:32Griffin Newman:well I think she had a connection to her colleague who we haven't really mentioned is also one of the people that

2:08:39Jane Schoenbrun:disappears totally yes yes oh and there's some kind of like maybe there there's some sexual repression kind of stuff going on

2:08:47Griffin Newman:it's very hard to read into some of this stuff but it feels like

2:08:50Jane Schoenbrun:it's there I believe is her name because then there's also Jackie Weaver who is sleeping with that guy the sort of groundskeeper. Yeah, they kind of have like a Gosford Park upstairs. This is the go-betweeny thing. Right, yeah, exactly. And you get the sense that the headmistress is kind of pissed off about that. Yes. You guys are having sex?

2:09:13Griffin Newman:Yes, yes. But it's... This is all stuff that's happening in the movie where you are like, what am I to grab on here? Like, what's the plot? Like, what is the ongoing story here?

2:09:23Jane Schoenbrun:The girls have already left the Hanging Rock. Right.

2:09:24Griffin Newman:The girls are gone, and now I'm with everybody who's sort of grasping on for an explanation or a way to proceed. The detail of the teacher who disappeared, sorry, again, I don't remember her name. Miss McCraw. Miss McCraw is witnessed by the girl who runs off that she is just in her underwear walking around. Weird. What's going on there? What happened? Was she hypnotized, possessed? Like, it's, I don't know.

2:09:49Jane Schoenbrun:I think they were horned up. I think that rock was horning them up. It was a hot day. It's St. Valentine's Day.

2:09:56Griffin Newman:And then there's this, It's true. We discover Irma, and there's this moment where Irma is brought to say goodbye to the girls, and they're all hanging there. That's a great scene. They're doing a dance lesson, because it's those wooden boards that they're all holding onto that are suspended from strings, to do their posture. I assume that's what that is. To do their ballet moves. To do ballet stuff. And then they all just go feral and start screaming at them. Yeah. Because they're like, you did it. It's your fault.

2:10:21Jane Schoenbrun:They are the American critics saying, explain it, Joyce! Solve the mystery.

2:10:26David Sims:I think not to simplify it

2:10:33Griffin Newman:we can just be like we can't simplify it and we leave it to you you're saying we the podcast exactly now that we've said that you can also go ahead and simplify it we all acknowledge that yes part of it is just

2:10:46David Sims:I don't claim to have the ultimate reading but this is what I feel while watching this movie we talked about it a bit in our True Grit episode in our Coen series But that like the ending of that film, which I find so powerful, is kind of like this young girl is broken by this experience because after this going on this fucking adventure that like leaves her down an arm but also has these like high highs and low lows. The notion of like, great, and now go to finishing school and like make yourself a proper wife for someone to buy and like, you know, funnel into the system is just a thing that she cannot wrap her head around anymore.

2:11:23David Sims:And I think a lot of this movie is about, to me, in my view, a society that is not giving these women any outlet to ever, like, express any emotions or autonomy. So all these things of, like, what are these, like, repressed, unspoken things going on beneath the surface? It's not that the movie isn't communicating them to us. It is that these characters do not even see a pathway to being able to communicate them to each other or perhaps even admit them to themselves. and what is like motivating them to go to that rock is like being horned up but it's also this feeling of like jesus christ are we just like stuck on this conveyor belt for the rest of our fucking lives and i think it's part of what makes everyone so freaked out about them disappearing is to a certain degree it's like well this is scary what ominous kind of unknown thing is lurking around here but also other than that what's our future we're all going towards the exact same fucking thing.

2:12:23David Sims:Don't like it. No. And like, you know, this girl gets told that she's going to get kicked out of the school. She immediately is like, well, I guess it's suicide. There's like no third option for these people. And not that the group of girls go to the rock with ideations of death to begin with, but it's more just this feeling of like exploration of is there anything else out there even for a moment before we have to return to like the straight line we're expected to walk on. Because the world of this movie is very small. And some of that you can say is like a budget limitations. But I think much like, you know, Halloween gaining power from not being able to afford extras.

2:13:07David Sims:There's something about how limited the scope is of the world this is contained within. The fact that, you know, we see the police coming in and trying to solve it, but the movie doesn't zoom out to like this becoming a national news story in a way that really, really broadens its aperture. You're stuck in this, like, very kind of claustrophobic existence the whole time. And death is, like, kind of the only way out of it. Sure.

2:13:32Griffin Newman:I mean, that is the way out for Sue, and we learn it's the way out for Mrs. Zappleyard. Right? Like... The rock comes for them all. She goes to the rock, climbs it, and dies, is what we're told, right? Like, her body was found. She friggin' jumps off. or she jumped off.

2:13:50David Sims:Yeah. Lost her dang mind. Can I give you my read on what I think happens to the girl?

2:13:55Griffin Newman:You're like the Australian cop at the front of the scene like chewing an apple. Lost her damn mind. Oh, she lost her damn mind.

2:14:01David Sims:Yeah. I think, and this is just, you know, how I've always read the movie, they go inside the slit in the rock and Bill and Ted are just there with their phone booth. Totally. And they're like, come with us.

2:14:14Griffin Newman:We're going to go see Socrates.

2:14:16David Sims:They bring them to San Dimas in the 80s and they have a grand old time and they were like, if you don't mind, we'll stay here. I mean, do Bill and Ted fuck? Each other? They should. The medieval babes. What are you talking about? They're married. They have children.

2:14:27Jane Schoenbrun:Yeah. One of them is played by Jack Haven.

2:14:29David Sims:Yeah. Cool. And Samara Weaving.

2:14:32Griffin Newman:I saw that movie once in COVID. It's gone. I'm sorry. Not bad. I remember having a totally fine time with it.

2:14:38David Sims:I've been pushing to do it on Patreon. We had it on the schedule for a moment. We did think about it. We did. We can bring it back. Yeah. I just love all three of those movies.

2:14:48Griffin Newman:Same. Yeah, they're great. They're fun. The second one is so good. The Bogus Journey one. That movie distressed me as a child. Well, it's... Because it's weird. It's very scary. Yeah. You like Bogus Journey? It's the one with the death. I don't think I've ever seen it.

2:15:02David Sims:Oh, Jane. It's cool. It's cool. I would have guessed that Bogus Journey was like one of the most influential films on your work. I've like seen parts of it on Comedy Central for sure. You clearly have gotten there without having seen it,

2:15:15Jane Schoenbrun:but I would strongly recommend you see it. You know what else I haven't seen? What? Princess Bride.

2:15:20Griffin Newman:You know what? That's one for me too. I've seen The Princess Bride like once maybe, but like it's one of those movies that's canonical for people that I am like, I don't have much of a relationship with that movie.

2:15:31Jane Schoenbrun:The other big one for me that I think it might finally be time for, because I just had an idea yesterday for like, not a gender swap, like more of like a moral swap. Like take good and make it evil is Forrest Gump. Well, hey now.

2:15:46Griffin Newman:I mean. You're onto something here. That's a good starting point.

2:15:50David Sims:Right, so your idea is to take Forrest Gump and turn him into a good character instead? Yeah, exactly. See what I did there, Ben?

2:15:58Jane Schoenbrun:I liked it. I've never seen Forrest Gump, but I know the idea. It's quite a film. Forrest Gump is fucking stupid and bad, but also, you know, pretty watchable. I've been on a Zemeckis kick. I watched... He's made some amazing movies. Who Framed Roger Rabbit I watched for the first time in a while. What a movie. What a picture.

2:16:16Griffin Newman:The best. Unbelievable. It's my favorite of his movies.

2:16:18Jane Schoenbrun:I think I was actually, the last time I was on here, maybe talking a lot about the Polar Express because I had just watched it for the first time.

2:16:24David Sims:So we covered him years ago. We covered him in deepest, darkest pandemic. Yep. And we spent a lot of time thinking about the man. But David, I just teem up. My daughter loves the Polar Express. David has been stuck in a hell of Polar Express. It's not a hell.

2:16:40Griffin Newman:It's a strange world. I don't know how you feel about the Polar Express. I loved it. I loved it. So, you know, I watched it before I had kids and I was like, what a weird waxy movie. And then I watched it with my daughter on TV and I was like, yeah, but at least she likes it or whatever. Then I took her to see it in theaters. The Nighthawk had it. Some of it kind of rips.

2:16:59David Sims:You're also skipping over 80 additional times she made you watch it at home. I've seen it a lot.

2:17:04Jane Schoenbrun:That movie is like, whatever, what do they call this like thing that people say my movies are like where it's kind of like liminal, you know? Like that's a liminal movie.

2:17:15Griffin Newman:Polar Express is a liminal movie I don't think your movies are They're not liminal like Polar Express Polar Express To me, liminal which of course is in the eye of the beholder but it's like you're in the train car of the Polar Express and you're like, I can imagine this going on forever. I'm in hell I go to another train car it looks the same. You know who would fit it in that movie? Salad Fingers And now we're getting a liminal space movie this year, right? We're in the back rooms directed by like a 19 year old which I'm all for I'm like yes let's have 19 year olds make creepypasta movies

2:17:49David Sims:and the train conductor's in that right

2:17:51Griffin Newman:yeah he's gonna be there he's gonna be like welcome to that ballerick hot hot hot I mean it's something that my daughter has not clocked and I keep waiting to see if she ever does where I'm like this movie is sinister like he's not nice he's really weird and mean to them he's quite mean yeah and I know that's sort of the bit of like oh he's kind of stern, but like, you know, he's got a heart. But your daughter's a sensitive kid who I feel like reacts to those things. but she likes the rules, you know, and there's a lot of rules in Polar Express.

2:18:20David Sims:A tremendous amount of rules. Right. One of them, of course, being feel free to put ice cubes inside your hot chocolate. Oh,

2:18:27Griffin Newman:no,

2:18:28David Sims:never, never let it cool.

2:18:29Griffin Newman:Number, this film came out.

2:18:31David Sims:I'm doing the box office.

2:18:32Griffin Newman:He's skipping so far ahead.

2:18:34David Sims:He was about to tell us number five. Number five,

2:18:37Griffin Newman:no. This film came out in Australia in 1975.

2:18:39David Sims:Do we have any final thoughts on Picnic at Hanging? rock.

2:18:43Griffin Newman:Well, I had to create the space to leave it open. Oh, should I just play pan flute there? Yeah, do that over the box office game. This film came out in Australia in 1975, but then, you know, sort of slowly works its way around the world. It does make a lot of money in Australia. It doesn't come out in America, as far as I can tell, Griff, until 1979. February 2nd, 1979. The year of Alien. There you go. Yeah, there we go. So I'm giving you the box office week for the 2nd of February, 1979. Okay. Number one of the box offices is a superhero film. It's been number one for like two months. It's a big movie.

2:19:21Griffin Newman:It's called Superman. Superman. Do you cover Superman, Jane? Who's that? Christopher Reeve. Who's that?

2:19:29Jane Schoenbrun:He's kind of a Superman. Is that the guy who played Atticus Finch? No. He's a newspaper man. I've actually never seen the original Superman. It's pretty good. I should watch it. Richard Donner? Yeah.

2:19:39David Sims:75 % of it is the best shit on Earth. Is it Brando? Yeah.

2:19:43Jane Schoenbrun:Oh, I gotta see it.

2:19:44Griffin Newman:Brando has been tightly woven into a Kryptonian suit. Did I watch?

2:19:49Jane Schoenbrun:And I haven't seen the new Superman, but I kind of wanted to. The new Superman's fun. Yeah.

2:19:52Griffin Newman:Maybe I should do them both back to back. Yeah, and skip everything in between. Yeah. You'd be fine if you did that. Absolutely. Number two at the box office is a comedy. A comedy. An ensemble comedy. Anthology.

2:20:06David Sims:It's an ensemble anthology comedy. comedy. It's not Kentucky Fried Movie, is it?

2:20:10Griffin Newman:No. Think worse than those two movies. Or think less cool than those movies. But it is anthology. It's not like the groove

2:20:20Jane Schoenbrun:tube?

2:20:21Griffin Newman:No. Less cool than

2:20:22Jane Schoenbrun:Kentucky Fried Movie. It's too early

2:20:24Griffin Newman:for Amazon Women on the Moon. So you guys, again, you're thinking cool. It's really lame. No, it's not even lame. It's just like very mainstream comedy of the era. One of the big comedy figures of this era.

2:20:35David Sims:Oh, oh, is it the Neil Simon?

2:20:36Griffin Newman:It's a Neil Simon. It's the hotel one Yes he made multiples But this is one of them Yes It's called It won an Academy Award

2:20:44Jane Schoenbrun:He made multiple There's multiple Hotel ensembles Correct Like we're at a hotel

2:20:49Griffin Newman:And there's gonna be like Four mini stories About people In the hotel Four rooms This is California Suite

2:20:55David Sims:Which Maggie Smith Won her First or second Second Sure Wild She's good in it

2:21:00Griffin Newman:I've never seen it I've seen California Suite Bill Cosby's in it Great And Richard Pryor well yeah i don't know how i can yeah jane fonda walter walter matthew elaine may okay richard prior maggie smith pretty fun no it's not it's okay it's like one of the four stories is pretty good the maggie smith one one's okay the richard prior one like it's like and one of them's kind of bad you know what i mean it's like i made like three billion dollars adjusted for inflation made 42 million dollars wow it was a big hit number three of the box office is something i have never heard of. I have to look it up.

2:21:36David Sims:Okay, that's exciting.

2:21:37Griffin Newman:Okay. I'm not going to tell you what it's called because you have to guess, of course. Okay, so there was a book. Okay, I like it so far. A non-fiction book. Okay. 28 million copies of it were sold. Okay. A secret. It is a treatment of what I want to call dispensational premillennialism, comparing end-time prophecies in the Bible with current end-time prophecies, right? Of the time. Uh-huh. So it's like doing all that stuff. This book gets turned into a film narrated by Orson Welles. Fuck. That's just him being like, the Old Testament, you know, like, and talking about all this shit.

2:22:18David Sims:I know this movie.

2:22:19Griffin Newman:You do?

2:22:20David Sims:Yeah. Because it's like a bizarre curio.

2:22:24Griffin Newman:It is.

2:22:25David Sims:It's not called... Fuck. It's not called The Final Something, is it? No.

2:22:31Griffin Newman:I'll tell you what it's called. Yeah.

2:22:33David Sims:The Late Great Planet Earth. whoa okay that's a different movie than i was thinking of okay well that's what it is i just when i watch like old siskel and eberts they will rail about how like once a year there's a movie like this yeah and they were like the weird faith-based box office phenomena of their time which were like quote-unquote documentaries that stoked like end time spheres yeah there's there's the the search for noah's ark which like a really big one yep a couple years later they would also

2:23:03Griffin Newman:There would be movies that was just like, we have a hot air balloon and we took some fucking pictures of the ground from it. And people didn't have like, you know, other ways to see that in color.

2:23:12David Sims:That's an earlier, more innocent time. By the time you get to the 70s, there's a documentary that's like, did we film an interview with God? It costs you two dollars to find out. And people would rush out and they'd be like, no. And they're like, ha ha, we got your money. And they'd run for the hills.

2:23:27Griffin Newman:Number four, the box office is an action comedy that was a gigantic hit. In 1979, is it Silver Street? No. It stars a guy who didn't make a lot of comedies. And in fact, we wanted to talk about him indirectly with Jane, and this is a way to do it. Here we go.

2:23:43David Sims:It is one of the two Clyde the Orangutan movies.

2:23:45Griffin Newman:It is one of the two films in which Clint Eastwood acted alongside a monkey. You wanted to talk about Clint with me? No, we want to talk about Sully. Oh. We're building a bridge over here to Sully. Because we forgot to do it last time. We got to do it before this episode ends. But what the film is called? Okay. It's the first one. have you seen either of the movies

2:24:03Jane Schoenbrun:which is kind of it's actually insane that I haven't seen a lot of my like movie knowledge comes from the critic I feel like there are a couple bits on the critic about this

2:24:15David Sims:I just feel like one of my top five favorite movie stars of all time is a monkey totally

2:24:24Jane Schoenbrun:monkey on camera did you see the news yesterday about Kenan and Kel meet Frankenstein Yes, I did. Thrilling. I, I, yeah. I finally, this country's back. This country's back on the right track.

2:24:36Griffin Newman:I hope they do them all. There had better be a tie in orange soda that I can buy for them.

2:24:43Jane Schoenbrun:There had better be like a long exposition. Eight months later about how much they were at each other's throats. Oh, yes. Do you know what I love about it most of all?

2:24:51Griffin Newman:They buried the hatchet within five days of shooting. They were not speaking.

2:24:55David Sims:Those are their real names, right? They have the rights. to use their real names. Sure. That's right. It feels like this movie is not legally affiliated with the Nickelodeon series at all. That's right. So I'm really fascinated to see how... Will they play themselves in a new way, right? Like, are there going to be, like, weird legal lines of, like... Maybe Kel Trance loves orange soda. Kel Mitchell can love soda, but orange soda is owned by Nickelodeon. Well, I love orange soda,

2:25:19Griffin Newman:and I hope Kel does too.

2:25:20Jane Schoenbrun:He was kind of stupid? Was that, like, he was kind of the dumb one?

2:25:23Griffin Newman:Kel's just excitable and, like, was easily tricked. Yeah. And Kenan was the schemer. Kenan was always like, here's what we're going to do. We're going to do all this crazy stuff. It's very Honeymooners.

2:25:33Jane Schoenbrun:You can only imagine what's going to happen when. Oh, my God. When they meet Frankenstein. Frankenstein's a monster, too. But also, I think the classic Kenan. It better be Elordi.

2:25:41Griffin Newman:He's just doing the exact same thing.

2:25:46David Sims:The classic Kenan Kel thing is that Kel's always a little smarter than you think he is.

2:25:50Griffin Newman:Yeah, Kel has kind of like a sort of innate. Right, right. That's right. At the end of the episode. And Kenan trips himself up with the scheme. Right, he overthinks it.

2:25:56Jane Schoenbrun:They should get a Lordy and who's Maggie Gyllenhaal's bride?

2:26:01Griffin Newman:Yeah, they should get Jesse Buckley as the bride. What's the film called, Griff? Okay, so I always get the two titles wrong. Just try.

2:26:10David Sims:It's called Any Witch Way You Can. That is the sequel. The original was called. Any Witch Way But Loose? Every Witch Way.

2:26:18Griffin Newman:This is what I always mess up. Oh my God. In which, yes, Clint Eastwood, a bare knuckle brawler, roams the American West looking for a lost love, accompanied by his brother, manager Orville, who is played by Jeffrey Lewis, and an orangutan called Clyde. Clyde. Sounds like straight out of the Australian New Wave. It kind of does. Humongous movie. Directed by James Fargo, who's one of his guys. Was like maybe Clint Eastwood's biggest hit at the time? It made$105 million,

2:26:43David Sims:which is a lot of money. Humongous. There were like 10 movies in history that had made$100 million at that point.

2:26:49Griffin Newman:What did you want to say about Sully? Sorry? Just to, this is the Sully space. This is your chance to talk to me.

2:26:54David Sims:You used to run a Sully Tumblr, correct? Yeah. What are you, Nardwar? Am I wrong about this?

2:27:02Jane Schoenbrun:You're correct about that, yeah. Thank you. What was it called? My Sully Fan Art.

2:27:07David Sims:Because I told people you were doing our Twin Peaks return finale episode, and multiple friends of mine were like, you gotta ask Jane about the Sully Tumblr. Wow. And then when the episode came out, several people on the Reddit said, I cannot believe they didn't bring up the Sully Tumblr.

2:27:22Jane Schoenbrun:I'm happy to hear this because... I felt like the Sully Tumblr never got its due.

2:27:27David Sims:This is your moment.

2:27:28Jane Schoenbrun:Yeah.

2:27:29David Sims:To reclaim it. I think... It still exists. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tumblr.com slash mysullyfant.

2:27:32Jane Schoenbrun:So basically, here's what happened. This was pre-movie.

2:27:36David Sims:This was... Oh, yeah. This was the real man, the real hero.

2:27:39Jane Schoenbrun:Yeah, this was pre-transition. This was... I... It was 2006... No, the movie had come out or was just coming out. Let me check the dates here. I had just quit my day job. Movies 2016. I kind of had these like dark years between 2016 and 2019, 20 that were sort of like, am I trans? This is one of the main coping mechanisms. It was my silly fan art. Yeah. Yeah. I think I, I saw something in it. I, I was trying, I was trying to find my voice, that voice that people love so, so much now. And a lot of that was going into the, the conceit was sort of like, you're kind of tearing pages out of moleskin.

2:28:26Jane Schoenbrun:Yeah. I was tearing a page out of moleskin notebooks and I was doing little one panel comic strips where, um, Sully is like, I think as we now know him to be like, um, just, just like a hero of our time. But, but, but then I, yeah, I was interested in like the Sully backstory. Sending you guys an image from it.

2:28:46David Sims:Thank you. You're welcome. Do you know that Dave and I like wholeheartedly, there's a big Sully thing. We, we defend that movie really hard.

2:28:54Jane Schoenbrun:I don't think I ever actually saw the movie. That was the other thing. Wow. I hadn't seen the movie. I mean,

2:28:58David Sims:the idea of him is so powerful. Yeah. Imagine a whole movie of that.

2:29:01Jane Schoenbrun:No, I think that, and that was where the comics came from. My Sully fan art was sort of like, you don't have a man like Sully, who's real very often. It's a great name. The man and the mythology. I mean, that's the fucking, the drive songs about him.

2:29:17Griffin Newman:You're a real human being. No,

2:29:18Jane Schoenbrun:and it, it's true. I feel like it was a different time to have a fascination with Sully in 2016. I feel like now post the rehearsal season two. That's true.

2:29:32David Sims:We were so fucking ahead of that curve. You know what drove me crazy? People text and saying, you got to watch the rehearsal. You're going to love it. Why? Because someone else stood up for Sully when we've been here doing the work for fucking years. And me as well. They tried to railroad us. In 2016 or 17. The three of us were doing the work. boots on the ground.

2:29:51Jane Schoenbrun:I gave Sully a sidekick named Tully who is his...

2:29:55Griffin Newman:There's also little Sully.

2:29:58Jane Schoenbrun:Sully's dad gives him advice. Sully's dad is a character and his dad is kind of always like, if you ever have to land an airplane because there are birds, you know, there's a lot of that.

2:30:09David Sims:Oh, he's constantly fighting birds. Yeah. Do you folks know, since we've already spoiled Blackphone 2, do you know the ending joke of Daddy's Home 2.

2:30:22Griffin Newman:Yes, we've talked about it on this podcast. Do you know it, Jane?

2:30:25David Sims:No, tell me. The first Daddy's Home, obviously, it's like Will Ferrell. Don't set up the first Daddy's Home. I have to go. Very quickly. No. Mark Wahlberg, Will Ferrell, stepdad versus birthdad coming back into the picture. Oh, I gotta watch this. And he's feeling emasculated. Sofia Coppola loves it. It's okay.

2:30:40Jane Schoenbrun:Hold on, because I actually didn't know... What's the movie called? Daddy's Home. It's important to explain these things. It's not called Stepfather, because it sounds a lot like stepbrothers. It's sort of that vibe.

2:30:51David Sims:But I mean, not as surreal. But like demented Nickelodeon family comedy. Right. Yeah. So the reveal at the end of the movie is that they're actually father and son. Mark Wahlberg remarries and she goes like, unfortunately, you are going to have to meet the father of my children, my ex-husband. And he shows up and it's John Cena. And it's like, oh, here's the guy who can emasculate Mark Wahlberg. Now it gets passed down. Right. So in the second movie, Is Cena in there? They're a blended family. Cena's in there. They're all getting along, but there's a little tension between them. But now the grandfathers come in.

2:31:26David Sims:And so the chain is Will Ferrell, or Will Ferrell's dad is John Lithgow. Got it. Mark Wahlberg's dad is Mel Gibson. Oh, wow. And they save John Cena's dad for the end of the movie. And the reveal is that it is Captain Sully Sullenberger playing himself. That's good.

2:31:41Jane Schoenbrun:And that's good.

2:31:42David Sims:It's the only man who could emasculate Mel Gibson. Right.

2:31:46Jane Schoenbrun:I do like that. and I'm glad that Sully got a paycheck.

2:31:49David Sims:Yeah, and probably like pretty good residuals.

2:31:53Griffin Newman:Did you want to say anything about Watto before I move on to number five at the box office?

2:31:56David Sims:Yeah, you also, you're fluent in Watto. Yeah. When you first came in here for the last episode, you clocked the Watto standee. There's a big Watto Pepsi standee. And you said, oh, we got to talk about Watto and then we forgot to do it. No, we can write that wrong. It's the moment.

2:32:13Jane Schoenbrun:It actually, I have a friend, my oldest friend who is a big fan of the Blank Check podcast. Shout him out. That's crazy because that's the podcast you're on right now. What up, Bob? Okay. We grew up together and it was like... Hi, Bob. Yeah. What's up, Bob? We had this sense of humor, right? Or like a Watto. You know, you're looking for the things that don't quite add up in pop culture in the year 2000 or whatever. 99? When was it? 99, yeah. And we were collecting those Pepsi cans. Absolutely. And I feel like it was like my brain was still small enough that and it was such a big event. Those prequel.

2:32:52Jane Schoenbrun:It was like, oh, this is going to be like this is we're about to get our canon. Yes. Like we kids, our parents got it. It was Luke. It was Chewie. Right. We're about to get our canon.

2:33:02David Sims:It's these guys. Well, and they were pushing Watto so hard, I think, because of him being a CGI like visual effects breakthrough. Yeah. You watch the movie and you're like Jew. He is, in fact, a flying space Jew. He's a bit of a Shylock. And he's like a very unsavory character in the film without having the coolness of a villain. He is a slave owner.

2:33:23Jane Schoenbrun:He is a slave owner and a gambling addict. There's a good Mad TV sketch. Do you remember that one? Oh, about Watto? Yeah, where they go to like George Lucas's ranch and he's like showing them the new characters. And it's just like, here's like Aunt Jemima Watto.

2:33:38David Sims:Right. The Jar Jar discourse was so loud at the time. Yeah. Wado kind of got dropped out.

2:33:43Griffin Newman:And the Neimoidians almost got dropped out.

2:33:45David Sims:And I think the Neimoidians were second. Right. And I think we all are like of the same broken brain where even in 1999 we were like. We were able to see that there was something going on with Wado. And the future like circled back around 10 to 15 years later.

2:33:58Jane Schoenbrun:I feel like Wado also has like there's something like very Donkey Kong about Wado. Like Wado feels straight out of the like not the Nintendo, the rare. universe. I was going to say...

2:34:10Griffin Newman:Donkey Kong Country, you're speaking my language right now.

2:34:12Jane Schoenbrun:There's some Banjo-Kazooie energy to Watto.

2:34:15Griffin Newman:Thank you for...

2:34:17Jane Schoenbrun:Let's just put it in the parlance of these times. Watto is a scenery chewer. He is. What do you mean by that? If you're in a scene with Watto, you're going to get out-acted. And let me... Neeson admits that to this day. That fucking thing blew me off the screen.

2:34:34David Sims:And then you find out who Sully's father is. Yeah. I mean, let me put it in the parlance of our day. Watto is straight up aura farming. And I don't say this to glaze him.

2:34:45Griffin Newman:Oh, my God. But the man was absolutely serving. So weird that Qui-Gon is like, I'll break any rule. I'll train a kid. I'll gamble for his life, right? I'll bring him, you know, because... And then the kid's like, can I have my mom? And he's like, you know, things are done a certain way here, all right? I'm not going to just take your slave mom from Watto. Yeah, this giant ship's a little crowded. I won one slave in the bet. Does he Jedi mind trick Watto? Watto says that they don't work on him. Mind tricks don't work on me. I'm a toy there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he can't be. And of course, Watto, instead of flipping a coin, rolls a chance cube to produce a red or blue outcome.

2:35:24Jane Schoenbrun:Part of the charm of Watto is that, like, I feel like the name Watto, that was the first draft.

2:35:32Griffin Newman:Yeah. I think we did a good job Number five of the box office Is a romantic drama about ice skating What's it called? Well it's not The Cutting Edge No Famously it stars Robbie Benson Who is best known as the voice of the beast On the video archives podcast In Beauty and the Beast they did That's right And recently was on Severance

2:35:59David Sims:Who is the female lead of this movie?

2:36:02Griffin Newman:Her name is Colleen Dewhurst.

2:36:06David Sims:Yeah. Big sort of theater actor. Yeah. Mm-hmm. This movie is called, is it called The Something? No. Fuck.

2:36:14Griffin Newman:I'll tell you what it's called.

2:36:15David Sims:It's called Ice Castles.

2:36:18Griffin Newman:Yeah, there we go. There you go. Okay. So that's the top five. You've also got The Further Adventures of the Wilderness Family. What the hell is that? Sounds good. That's a Jane-esque title. Yeah. I've fed it into chat, GPT. You should look into that IP,

2:36:36David Sims:see if anyone's got a hold on it right now.

2:36:38Griffin Newman:That is a sequel to a movie called Adventures of the Wilderness Family, perhaps unsurprisingly. I don't know. Looks like some kind of like, you know, Little House on the Prairie adjacent shit. You've got the Ralph Bakshi Lord of the Rings, which rocks and is insane. Yeah.

2:36:58Jane Schoenbrun:Wait, he did Lord of the Rings too? I thought he just did The Hobbit.

2:37:01Griffin Newman:No. So The Hobbit was Rankin Bass. That thing is okay. And then there's the insane Ralph Bakshi. What's, you know, where you trace over it? What's it called? Rotoscoped. Lord of the Rings. It is so weird and nightmarish. It's got all kinds of cool stuff. It unfortunately ends in the middle of the two towers. And then he didn't do Return of the King. And then there is a crappier Return of the King animated movie. But that was all that ever existed until Peter Jackson. Number eight is the Sean Connery movie, The Great Train Robbery. Oh, sure. Number nine is a movie called Movie Movie.

2:37:32David Sims:Yeah, that's a Stanley Donan film. It's sort of Stanley. It's two movies. It's Stanley Donan's Grindhouse. I'm not kidding you.

2:37:41Griffin Newman:Dynamite Hands, a boxing movie. And Baxter's Beauty of 1933 is sort of Gold Diggers.

2:37:45David Sims:It's basically him doing two different Golden Age pastiche mini movies. And there's a fake trailer in the middle. Yeah, I wasn't kidding. It's his Grindhouse.

2:37:54Griffin Newman:Wow.

2:37:54David Sims:Movie Movie is like, A, I think an incredible title. Yeah. And B, it is a fun concept. But it's also fascinating that anytime anyone's tried to do this, it has not worked. The public has said, fuck you.

2:38:06Griffin Newman:And then number 10. And they've been wrong every time. Every time. Yeah, Grindhouse rocked. Number 10 is Across the Great Divide. What is that? It's a film. A Western. Okay. With Robert Logan. Whatever. Doesn't matter. I have to go see the Sam Raimi movie in a second. Oh, fine. So we got to wrap up. That's a humble brag.

2:38:23David Sims:Sure. You were saying I got to go this whole time. I thought you got to make pasta dinner for your family.

2:38:28Griffin Newman:No, it's why I could do a later pod today because I have a screening. Well, well. I have to go to the Fortress of Doom, a.k.a. Disney headquarters. Whoa. You ever been there? No. They should let you in. They haven't invited me. Let you mess around with some stuff.

2:38:43Jane Schoenbrun:They should let you develop a live action.

2:38:46David Sims:Where's Watto? Where do you keep him? Where's Watto is not a bad title. I'll tell you some Watto rights stuff off mic. But I feel like it's about time, Jane, that you attach yourself to some random live action Disney remake that never actually happened. Right. Some IP play.

2:39:02Jane Schoenbrun:That seems to work out well for my peers. Yeah, it's perfect. Not nightmarish and annoying at all. It's like about as good mileage as everyone involved in that hanging rock case. It's one of those. A lot of people just kind of disappear.

2:39:17David Sims:Yeah.

2:39:18Griffin Newman:Thank you for joining us, Jane.

2:39:19David Sims:Thank you for being here. Thanks for having me. This is always so fun. I'm very excited to see the new film, which will hopefully come out sometime in this calendar year. Yeah, this year. And you are working on Black Hole?

2:39:29Jane Schoenbrun:I'm in the hole. Cooler show. Which rocks. But yeah, that's what you're doing, right? Nothing else to plug? The book will be out in the fall. That's right.

2:39:37Griffin Newman:I knew you had another thing.

2:39:38Jane Schoenbrun:It's like a 600, 700-page novel. Hell yeah.

2:39:41Griffin Newman:Wait, you wrote Antkind?

2:39:42Jane Schoenbrun:Yeah, I wrote Antkind. It starts Richard Brody. What's the book called? I'm sorry. The book is called Public Access Afterworld. Very cool. I think it's good. It's a novel. It's a novel. It's going to be my dune. You know, this is my opus.

2:39:58Griffin Newman:Music to my ears. Nothing better.

2:40:01David Sims:It's like pan flu music. Yeah, play it up again. My Sully fan art still. My Sully fan art still on Tumblr.

2:40:09Jane Schoenbrun:Yeah.

2:40:09David Sims:Yeah.

2:40:10Jane Schoenbrun:If you want to see my true first project.

2:40:14Griffin Newman:And yeah, I saw the TV glow, obviously, and we're all going to the World's Fair. The best. Yeah. Yeah.

2:40:21David Sims:honor and privilege to have you here. Seriously, thank you for coming to the show. To be here. Oh my God, it's so fun. Music's really chilling, man.

2:40:26Griffin Newman:I'll see your ass tomorrow. Well, hey.

2:40:29David Sims:Not to spoil for the listeners, but we're recording episodes tomorrow. We are, in fact. What are we doing tomorrow? They'll have come out like two months earlier. We're doing Mailbag and Return to Oz. Or no, we moved them out back. We're doing Carl's Day Paris, right? Yeah, which you'll have heard last week. Great. Thank you all for listening. Thank you, Jane, for being here again. Tune in next week. four four doop doop doop doop is it Gallipoli next? The Last Wave The Last Wave of course tune in next week for The Last Wave with our buddy Ben David Grabinski returning to the show who also has a new movie coming out and as always I just gift to you the listenership the opportunity to listen to some chill ass pan flute music

2:41:31Griffin Newman:Blank Check with Griffin and David is hosted by Griffin Newman and David Sims. Our executive producer is me, Ben Hosley. Our creative producer is Marie Barty Salinas. And our associate producer is AJ McKeon. This show is mixed and edited by AJ McKeon and Alan Smithy. Research by JJ Birch. Our theme song is by Lane Montgomery in the Great American Novel With additional music by Alex Mitchell Artwork by Joe Bowen, Ollie Moss, and Pat Reynolds Our production assistant is Minnick Special thanks to David Cho, Jordan Fish, and Nate Patterson for their production help Head over to BlankCheckPod.com for links to all of the real nerdy shit Join our Patreon, Blank Check Special Features For exclusive franchise commentaries and bonus episodes Follow us on social at BlankCheckPod Subscribe to our weekly newsletter, Checkbook on Substack.

2:42:23Griffin Newman:This podcast is created and produced by Blank Check Productions.