Raising Arizona with John Hodgman

7:02Griffin Newman:Having not seen it, I'm not offended. I'll be, in fact, I'm going to put a little tiny bit of offense.

7:07David Sims:And in fact, I would say this. if anyone involved with that movie at the upper levels felt good about what they did, they would not be returning to Marvel as quickly and loudly as they are. Yeah, I see what you mean. Holly Hunter, yes, I have actually recently, for whatever reason, gone on a couple similar rabbit holes of especially actresses over the age of 40 where I'm like, huh, quietly, that person has not been in a movie in eight years. there are a lot of people who it feels like there is a pre-pandemic cutoff and i go like oh fuck did hollywood kick them the curb and you're like no just streaming bullshit it's right it's the rise

7:47Griffin Newman:of a certain kind of television where it's like they're not not working they're working it's just

7:51David Sims:they've been diverted to this like i think katherine zeta jones has not been in a movie since red two if i am not mistaken and yet she has done 10 tv shows that don't exist including one for Facebook Watch. She was the lead actress. I don't know what you're talking about. Because it's not real. Facebook Watch is the streaming. Correct. I thought the name of the show was Facebook Watch. The last film. That was the platform.

8:15Griffin Newman:Okay. The last film that she made was, well, actually it was the, probably not released in America, Dad's Army in 2016. Okay. When is Red 2? Red 2 is 2013. And that is the second most recent movie she's made. She has done, of course, played Olivia de Havilland in Feud. She played the cocaine godmother in some TV movie. Was it not called cocaine godmother? Yeah. She was in something called Prodigal. Is that part of the cocaine bear universe? Yeah.

8:49David Sims:That was a Fox show that ran for two seasons. She, of course, was on the National Treasure Disney Plus show, tying back into why is Disney going out of their way to make sure they never make a National Treasure 3? why are they not fucking begging Nicolas Cage on his hands and knees Nicolas Cage is in this movie too by the way right he is in this movie

9:09Griffin Newman:and of course we have to acknowledge she played Morticia Adams in Wednesday but just in two episodes yeah because Wednesday's mostly at camp in that show or something yes we

9:19David Sims:right before this episode started we're talking giving spicy Star Wars takes that we never want to say on mic never will say on mic Star Wars on the internet is a writing it's a wonderful it's a wonderful trip to feedback. But it was it was looping all the way back around to an on ramp into discussion of this movie and I said we need to start recording right now so we can take this energy and talk about it. I lost it. Sorry. You refer to it as perhaps your favorite line in all of movies. Certainly your favorite line in this movie. David was talking about Yoda and he had some extremely hot takes on Yoda that I will not repeat.

9:53David Sims:Yeah. Legendary stick man. Yeah. Walking stick. True. Speaking of it's funny you mentioned Yoda because it brings us around to this movie that we're going to talk about. And one of my very favorite lines in movies, what was he wearing? Jammies. What was on his jammies? I don't know. Yoda's and shit. Yoda's and shit. Yoda's and shit. They had that line shot through me like force lightning. I have talked many times in this podcast about how one of my favorite lines in the history of movies is in Superbad, where the two cops, Rogan and Hader, are doing Star Wars impressions to amuse McLovin in the backseat.

10:37David Sims:And they're clearly not getting a big enough response. And Hader turns around and goes, you know Yoda? Yoda from Attack of the Clones?

10:45Griffin Newman:It's a good joke.

10:46David Sims:And the specificity of... From Attack of the Clones. Not from Star Wars. No. Attack of the Clones. Yoda from Attack of the Clones gets me. And it does... I had a similar jolt to this line that I've had every time I've watched this movie, but it hit hard fresh again last night. And I was just like, is any kind of joke that sort of throws Yoda off the hump going to get me? It's not like if there's a Yoda impression in a movie or someone does the backwards talk. Right. Or they go like, your nutsack looks like Yoda. Anything like that, I'm immediately rolling in the aisles. Your nutmobile looks like your Yoda.

11:22David Sims:But there's a commonality between those two jokes, right? Yoda's and shit. It's just, I mean, look.

11:31Griffin Newman:It's a perfect joke because it's like, yes, that's where Yoda has made it that far in the pop culture to sort of be in his brain. Yes. But like, not like, you know, Yoda. It's almost like how like parents would call all video games Nintendo. You know what I mean?

11:46David Sims:David, thank you. That's what the two jokes have in common. They're both people who know what Yoda is. But only kind of. Their understanding of what Yoda is is a little off.

11:58Griffin Newman:Look, they assume that other people are on the exact same level as them. I think my favorite line in Raising Arizona is, you know, these blow up in funny shapes all. She's like, no, unless round is funny. Really good. Let me say this. Let me take you on a trip back through time, please.

12:15David Sims:Hey, what is the name of this podcast?

12:16Griffin Newman:Yeah, can we introduce the podcast?

12:18David Sims:It's a Blank Check with Griffin and David. I'm Griffin. I'm David. It's a podcast about filmographies, directors who have massive success early on in their careers and are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want as long as their seed can find purchase. Sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they bounce baby. That is my favorite line in the movie. We'll talk about that for 15 minutes. There are a lot of lines. This is a miniseries on the films of Joel and Ethan Coen, both together and separately. It is called Pod Country for Old Cast. Probably. Probably.

12:49David Sims:Probably. And today we're talking about Raising Arizona, undeniably their guarantor. And I found an interview quote from them in 2000 before O Brother came out where they said, that's the last time we made a movie that actually made everyone an amount of money that they felt good about. And it is interesting to think because they've been pretty consistent since that point.

13:10Griffin Newman:Normally they would make probably enough that no one's mad at them.

13:13David Sims:They become, I would say, so minted after a while that even their less successful films, no one's losing money on them. Right. But after this movie, there is a run of like all of their movies basically barely break even or lose a little bit of money. But everyone's kind of like, yeah, but those guys are so good that they keep giving them small budgets. And they were like, this was the last time a studio gave us money and the return on investment worked. It's called Raising Arizona. Raising Arizona. Ask me if I like this movie. Who's our guest? Our guest, gentlemen, John Hodgman of the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

13:49And the brand new podcast on Maximum Fun, E Pluribus Motto. Janet Varney and I discuss all the mottos, mammals, monsters, and beverages of the states and commonwealths and districts of this country currently known as the United States. We'll see where it goes.

14:05David Sims:We love Janet Varney. Pass and future guests. Terrific. That's a good guess, yeah. Yeah, season two is out now. I should also list as a credit, of course, Dicktown. Still streaming on Hulu for the time being. Starring Griffin Newman.

14:17Griffin Newman:And what about that podcast you did about iClaudius? I'm just going to start bringing out Hodgman credits. There is a whole podcast that I made with Elliot Kalin about the British 1970s historical miniseries iClaudius. iClaudius. And it's called iPodies.

14:31David Sims:I hate to list credits that are going to hurt you, that bring up open wounds. but of course also the author of Medallion Status and Vacation Land, which sadly were never published in any format past hardback. Library editions only. I hate to jump, and large print, obviously. Absolutely. I hate to correct you, Griffin, but they're both available in paperback. If that were true, I would have heard about it by now. On a bargain table near you. I would have heard about it now. I listen to so many podcasts. Surely multiple copies in a little free library waterlogged with rain near you. John Hodgman, what were you going to say?

15:09David Sims:Ask me if I like this movie. John Hodgman, do you like the film Raising Arizona? I love it so much!

15:15Griffin Newman:Would be funny if you didn't like it and we were finding out right now. That was all the underline for the movie. In case people haven't seen this movie, you should go see it. Yeah, go see it. Run out to your local multiplexes. Go find a copy. No, you have to run to find the copy. I mean, the camera should kind of catapult after you in this kind of amazing way that you can't believe. Right. You wanted to take us back through time. Yeah, I will take you back through time for a moment. First of all, I just want to put a pin in this. Yeah. You call this undeniably their blank check movie. No, no, no.

15:51I call it undeniably their guarantee. It's their guarantee.

15:53Griffin Newman:The movie that gets them some creative freedom and more money. I think financially, there is an argument to be made. Yeah. Critically, I would say that their guarantor was Blood Simple that allowed them to make this. And after they made this, my memory at the time was that people were like, I don't know about these guys.

16:16David Sims:Look, I agree with you. And their career is kind of weird in how it built. And a lot of what we keep talking about in this series is that they were given time to grow in a way that the industry is not really support anymore. Right. But I think it was the combination of the two of Blood Simple is like heralded as these guys are major. These are careers that are going to be undeniable. Right. So we got to give them space to do something. And they're given the freedom to make. Absolutely. Raising Arizona, which then makes enough of a profit that even if people respond to this film, and I was looking at the reviews at the time, and they are so weird.

16:50Griffin Newman:Well, it's reviews that I think they would get maybe all the way till Fargo of like some raves, but some people being like all flash, all style.

17:00David Sims:Not only that, but the thing that surprised me in how stated it was is this movie is so mannered it like snuffs out any possibility of being funny. Right. Like rather than being like this style makes the movie funny, but the thing's frivolous. They were sort of saying like it's so overdone that like there is a void of laughter. Now, let me say this. Yes. To those critics. I mean, it's true. They went they went weird fast after Blood Simple. And basically went let's do the exact opposite of what everyone loved us doing last time. Exactly. And the people who were giving them money, I wonder if they knew that they were basically going to try again to make Crime Wave.

17:45Possibly. Possibly. I mean, the great— I don't think they did know is my point. No. Like, I think that they didn't understand that there was this element of wackadoo in the Coens that is not apparent in Blood Simple, which I, by the way, watched at 2 a.m. this morning. Hey. In preparation. Thank you. Sure. And in honor of my insomnia. Yeah. but is not apparent in Blood Simple and is wildly apparent in this movie. Yes. And then it modulates between those two modes throughout their career in a way that I find absolutely compelling. But I will go back, I will say this, to critics at the time, I was there.

18:22David Sims:Yeah. I lived it. Mm-hmm. 1987. Do you remember the crowd response going to see this movie? Yes. People were into it. Very into it. Now, I saw it at the Harvard Square Theater. Yeah. I'm a coastal elite. A lot of smarty pants is in the room. Charles Diggs, my high school pal, perhaps the smartiest of pants is. Yeah. And I were like, what are we going to do of an evening? Yes. Let's go see a movie. Went into Raising Arizona. Yeah. I still get chills thinking about. I had no idea what I was going into. Yeah. That was a movie I wish I could have seen in theaters opening weekend where you're just like.

19:02David Sims:really like Nicolas Cage or Holly Hunter

19:05Griffin Newman:or John Goodman

19:06David Sims:or anything. Yeah, I feel like this movie doesn't really... It's got none of my... William Forsythe. Well, you know I love William Forsythe. Well, I know, yeah. You're a big fan of the God is in Dead series. Yeah, and also Flat Top. Forgot about that. He was Flat Top. But like, I'll just... The electricity that I felt with that Yoda's in line, Yoda's in shit line was very, very powerful because you talk about on this podcast movies that don't exist. Uh-huh. 1987, Star Wars did not exist. We were talking about this, I feel like, fairly recently with Gethsemane. A decade after the first Star Wars.

19:41Griffin Newman:It's the most fallow Star Wars period. The forgotten dead period of Star Wars. Where people are kind of just like scraping for anything.

19:47David Sims:It's like the equivalent of making an old Yeller reference or whatever, where you're like, yeah, that old thing that we use as shorthand. And of all of the Star Wars references that they might have made, there could have been anything and shit on there. Yep. Boba Fett's and shit. Skywalker's and shit. They knew Yoda's was the funniest. Lobots and shit. Not just linguistically. Yeah. Yes. But even Joel and Ethan Coen would look at Lobots and shit and go, no, let's dial it back. Right. Yoda's. Right. It has to be, right. Making Yoda the butt of a joke in itself is really funny. Yes. And then also, I felt profoundly seen.

20:21Yes. By that line. Yep. And by, and this, I wouldn't even say that I was seen in this movie in terms of my love of this kind of storytelling. Mm-hmm. Because I didn't know that it created that love in me. And the only the other moment of sheer electricity. And this is good because I'm bringing us to the beginning of the movie. Good. That long opening narration. And then cutting to the credits. The yodeling and the raising Arizona hitting the screen at 11 minutes in. It has that feeling that I felt. my memory is I stood up and gave a standing ovation in that moment. But the theater truly was electric.

21:03The Harvard Square Theater. I don't think it's there anymore. But it was an art house. It's also where I saw Swimming to Cambodia and The Princess Bride.

21:11David Sims:Late 80s classics all. It has the feeling of what I often only now get in the modern era from the good Mission Impossible movies, where when they light the fuse, you're like, fuck, right, they haven't even done that yet. Right. Right? That feeling that Raising Arizona is going at like 8 trillion miles per hour and 11 minutes. It's like, by the way, here are the opening credits. Yeah. You're like, oh my God, you are like playing like you're pitching a perfect game so far. I also think. And can I just say this because I'll forget it. Yeah. 8 trillion miles an hour describes this movie. And yet at every point in the movie, you feel like they're taking their time.

21:47Yep. There's nothing rushed about it. No.

21:50Griffin Newman:No, the beginning of the movie, you are like, wow, is this going to be like this breakneck throughout? Is it all a montage? Right. Is it truly a Looney Tune? Yes. And then it does, you know, manage to sort of shift into a lower gear without it feeling whiplashy. And that yodeling? Yeah. I mean, aside from being iconic. You did it, right? One-year-old David. Yeah, it was good. I used to be able to hit those notes. Ooh!

22:20Griffin Newman:Iconic, like, DVD menu that you're like, oh, turn it off, turn it off. It's just like on a loop.

22:24David Sims:Yep. I put my disc in and was like, let me brush my teeth and then I'll, like, start watching it. And I just, I had to hear that yodel eight trillion times as I got distracted. It's all I listened to walking around yesterday. Yep. I didn't even have my AirPods in. You were just surrounded by Carter Burwell and his yodeling clothes. No, I had a boombox on the subway. Okay, good. But in the moment of seeing the movie, yes, I laughed harder than I'd ever laughed in any movie. It was genuinely funny. Charles Diggs felt the same way. I dare say he probably does still. And I remember the audience walking out of there just on clouds.

23:01David Sims:My guarantee point is more that the holy shit, these guys are for real only goes so far if you've never made a return on investment. and I think that they did the two parts separately kind of gave them the ground. And a lot of it, as we will continue to cover in this series, is they found a couple big champions early on who were just like, we'll keep making your movies. Well, you're right. The most important part of their career is how closely it tracks to the premise of this podcast. Yeah. And we should probably talk about that. But like Circle Films and then Working Title Films, they got companies where they were just, they kind of crack their model of like, you guys are pros.

23:43David Sims:You come in like on time, under budget, under schedule. Great actors want to work with you. You have great taste in actors? The risk here is low enough and it feels like one of these is going to hit and break through in some way. And when you get to Hudsucker Proxy, it's Joel Silver being like, from the moment I saw Raising Arizona, it was apparent to me that these guys were going to make the crossover to being hyper-mainstream, big-budget comedy filmmakers. Like, he talks about making Hudsucker as if it was like they were like two steps away from their Ghostbusters. And then they would continue to be Ivan Reitman, you know?

24:19And I feel like who knows whether those expectations were conveyed to them. I don't know. But like when Joel Silver comes in, he's like, I've been waiting for your big blockbuster. They're like, terrific. Here's Hudsucker Proxy. Which is another example of like, it's the crime wave element. Well, Hudsucker Proxy is a, you know, it is a crime wave spiritual sequel. Yeah. Joel and Ethan Coen. Who are they?

24:42Griffin Newman:Made blood simple without any major investment, of course. Mostly from local dentists and doctors. Yes.

24:49David Sims:Family friends.

24:50Griffin Newman:Circle Films, however, distribute the movie, as we talked about last week. And they gave the Coens an oral commitment to produce their next picture.

24:59David Sims:And the oral commitment, by the way, the way it sounded out loud was... Jim Jacks, who's been discussed on this show before. While you're narrating, can I do a little Ode to Joy background? Yes. Jim Jax, who Kevin Smith very beautifully eulogized, but was this kind of key figure who had started out as a film exhibitor and theater owner and then eventually becomes a producer and was this guy who at Universal in the 80s and 90s kept plucking people from Sundance and being like, are you ready to make your studio film? and he is responsible for Raising Arizona, Mallrats, Days of Confused, several of these, you've impressed me.

25:36David Sims:Here's five to ten million dollars to make your strike at a studio comedy.

25:41Griffin Newman:They present Jim Jax for the screenplay for Raising Arizona. He's happy to see that not only did the Cone plan to follow through on their commitment, but they wanted to sign on for even more Circle Films. Jax was kind of afraid. Do the old to joy. What did you say there? Can I just do the dossier, please? Jax was kind of afraid that like because Bloodsport was actually hot I feel like you guys should be listening to me we are listening

26:07David Sims:we're multitasking layers of mannered style that are distracting from the substance of the moment

26:16Griffin Newman:he was worried they'd go for something bigger essentially they actually had enough juice that they probably didn't need to return to Circle Films at that moment but instead they make a deal for four pictures blood simple raising arizona miller's classing barton fink are the total you know circle films uh deal good for yeah yeah uh and essentially jacks is basically like you can decide what you want to make and within reason we will fund it like you know like it's you know no studio meddling whatsoever essentially film was uh made for about$3 million, I think. And then three weeks into production, 20th Century Fox put up another$3 million.

26:59Griffin Newman:Yeah. Which I don't, you know, I guess to get the distribution rights.

27:02David Sims:Could you imagine spooling the dailies for this thing? Yeah. Right? Like, if you're just seeing the raw footage, you're just like, who the fuck are these guys? And also, who the fuck are Holly Hunter and Nicolas Cage? Like, we should pour more money into this. They're onto something. I mean, I agree with you.

27:21Griffin Newman:Yeah.

27:22David Sims:I think you watch any, like, raw footage of this. Yeah. And you're like, something interesting is happening here. Give them three more million dollars. Exactly. So people made decisions based on different things then. Very different. Yeah. So Holly Hunters, of course. I think because people wanted to make movies. People liked movies. People liked movies. The people who made movies liked movies. People who made movies didn't hate movies. They took pride, in fact, in having completed a film. If it was their job to make a movie, they were like, yeah, let's do make that movie instead of finding 10 ways to not make a movie.

27:50Right.

27:51David Sims:And sometimes now, these days, ways to unmake a movie that has been made and instead becomes a write-off.

27:59Griffin Newman:Holly Hunter, of course, is an old pal of the Coen brothers. Former roommate of Franny McDormand. And they had tried to cast her in Blood Simple and we talked about that. But she basically is always on their radar for this movie and their other big thing is just we want to do something that's completely different from Blood Simple. We do not want something tense. We want something funny. We want a quicker rhythm. And we want Holly Hunter to be in it. All great instincts. They wrote the specific image of Holly in uniform hurling orders at prisoners. That was like, whatever. That's their germ of an idea of a role.

28:40David Sims:Turn to the right. Yep. But that's immediately identifying a like, Holly Hunter can be the smallest, most chipmunk-voiced woman in a room and yet command that level of authority. And you can mine comedy out of that. It's a very, very smart thing for them to locate before anyone else has captured that on film.

29:00Griffin Newman:Now, they are sort of getting, I guess already, pretty much starting with Blood Simple, the question that I feel like they get throughout their career, which is like, are you making fun of these people or not? Right? Like the sort of like, you know, you're making these movies about like downtrodden folk or poor folk or criminals or right. You know, like people on the fringes. Or then once you get to Fargo, like honest Minnesotans or, you know, and it's like, are you guys elitist bullies? Yeah. Yeah. And obviously, I think Raising Arizona is one of their most like plainly open hearted and sympathetic films.

29:35David Sims:And it's like it's all right here. Look, we've recorded a lot of the episodes in this series already. is a recurring thing that we go back to of like the strongest sort of like ideological vein you can find across all of their films is the belief in like individual people. Right. Right. Right. A massive distrust of systems. Yeah. But like that a good person is kind of the most valuable thing on the planet. Yeah. They value decency. Yes. Like for as much critique and shit eating that they were I don't think they ever ate the shit but they were offered shit to eat. for being arch, for being satirical, which they never were, right?

30:17But for being mannered and reserved and stylized. And these were their action figures they were playing with, not real people. In fact, they're profoundly real people. And they are all treated with incredible sympathy.

30:32Griffin Newman:The Coens, a lot of interesting quotes that JJ's dug up here from interviews over the years. This is from Joel. people have a problem dealing with the fact that our movies are not straight ahead they prefer the reason Arizona was just about a couple of schmoes in a tree look for a corner of a kid the arrival of bounty hunter from hell interrupts the comfort level people have with their world but we feel a strong emotional connection to these characters we're not laughing down at them yeah and uh this is also from Joel uh where he's like you ever seen in a movie where someone gets shot and the script goes off and blood runs down you get a reaction it's movie fodder in a different way a baby's face is movie fodder too right you know what i mean like they don't start with it's a baby getting kidnapped but they get start with it's a couple there's a circumstance they you know you know what i mean like and then they're like well baby like that will get blood running right you know uh make people blood simple that's true and they did think about that at all times but i feel like there's some incredible baby face acting in this that's what i'm saying like the image of a car stopping short and almost hitting a baby is so, like, it makes your whole body sit up, right?

31:38David Sims:But also, the image of the baby pulling its own hood down like, I don't want to see this, is just like, on an animal level, one of the funniest things you could possibly see. What if a baby had a day out? Well, the hijinks that would pursue.

31:53Griffin Newman:The chaos that would infertile. And I'm not saying a day out like at a nursery. I'm saying like the Big Apple.

32:00David Sims:like a big apple. Right. But certainly he stays ground level. And I don't mean a fruit. He's not going to crawl his way up to the tallest steel beams.

32:07Griffin Newman:Would he? That was a movie that as a kid I was like, this is one of the eight or nine most important films ever made, right?

32:13David Sims:What is the country? Is it Malaysia? There is one country where Baby's Day Out is like still the highest grossing film of all time. Because it's universally

32:20Griffin Newman:like everyone's like can get that. Right. The baby had a day out.

32:23David Sims:But in one country it has a disproportionate reputation.

32:28Griffin Newman:It is... It just says it's a popular film in South Asia.

32:34David Sims:Okay.

32:34Griffin Newman:And it was remade several times in different South Asian countries. But I'm not seeing the specific thing you're talking about.

32:41David Sims:There's one country I'll figure it out at some point. I do just want to call out, at the time of this film, Joel Cohen engaged to marry Frances McDormand. I believe they get married the year this film is released. But obviously in the time between Blood Simple and this, their love has flourished. in 1995, they adopt a child. Oh. Sorry. And we were talking with the great Ray Tentori and Jordan Fish last week, guests on our previous episode, about this whole feeling of like, are the Coens like dispassionate? Are they elusive? Are they making these movies at arm's length? Aloof. Yes. Joel has this like first marriage that is rarely talked about, that falls apart before they write Blood Simple, right?

33:29David Sims:Which is all about being stuck in bad marriages, right? And obviously that situation did not heighten to murder attempts, but there's something there that feels like an extrapolation of an energy of an internal struggle, right? In the same way where it's just like, he's marrying the woman he's going to be with to our present day. Yeah. And seven years, eight years after the release of this film, they adopt a child. There is something in the mix of this movie that is clearly, if not autobiographical, is at least like touching on clearly conversations, feelings of the future. But here's the thing that makes that story makes me think about.

34:08Even to this day. We, among the people who love the Coens a lot. Yes. If not the most. Are still sort of making arguments that like, you know, they're human beings. Yeah. I think.

34:22Griffin Newman:Right. And kind of being like, I think this is what's going on with them. You know, not like, oh, they've talked about how this is what's going on.

34:28David Sims:But this was Ray's point of just like, you can like draw analogs to even the limited information we know about their lives, right? There's still a lot of extrapolation there in the middle. They're not particularly secretive about their lives. No. But they're also not overly candid. But I mean, sure, because they're and they are literal human beings. Who have emotions. To not overshare shit. Yeah. And yet, I think that one of the reasons that this movie and some of their other movies, that they were held at arm's length, even to this day, because people felt like they were being held at arm's length by them.

35:08Yes. And that their virtuosity as writer, director, producer, editors, the absolutely innovative way that they approach story structurally and then visually as well, their ability to get these incredible actors and to spot them before other people have spotted them, it's all very intimidating. Yes. And I think that, and they are very stylized and they are very mannered. And so I feel like we're still making this argument. It's like, well, you know, Joel Cohen and Francis McDormand, I mean, they have human souls.

35:45David Sims:I mean, not to be base about this, but there is a degree to which they feel like space aliens. Yeah, exactly. These two funky looking guys who kind of stand stoically. And the work is not one-to-one representation of what's going on with them emotionally. It's being transformed and iterated and changed. And I interrupted you and I apologize. No, no, no. But I think it makes people assume, and also what you're saying, like that they were so virtuosic from the beginning. Where it was like, where did these guys fucking learn how to do all of this perfectly right out of the gate? And even the way that people talk about them directing.

36:24David Sims:you know the the thing that all their collaborators talk about the actors who work with them for the first time are like they really are the two-headed director it is bizarre where one guy will come up and give you a note and walk away and the second guy will come up from a different room and finish the sentence yeah you know and even that is like what is this weird communication between them between you know the fucking universe or whatever that i think makes people feel like are there movies like them studying mankind from a remove, right? Are they looking at us through a telescope in space and then sort of like pulling levers?

36:59Well, I mean, one of the reasons it really resonates...

37:02David Sims:David hates when we analyze movies on this podcast. His two least favorite things are analyzing movies and talking about the career arcs of directors. And I will say recently, we've been buttoned up against this as a little bit of an issue.

37:19Griffin Newman:Propel hydrates better than water to help you get the most out of your workout and get back to your best self. What propels you? Propel with Gatorade Electrolytes. This episode is brought to you by Facebook. So you were scrolling on Marketplace and there it was, the bike you'd been searching for. You sent a message and it turned out the seller was super chatty, kind of funny, and an avid cyclist.

37:44David Sims:The next thing you know, you're in a cycling crew. well, a community cycling group. The thing about Facebook, you might find more than what you're looking for.

37:54Griffin Newman:From a browse to a bike ride, this summer, find more on Facebook. I was thinking about delayed opening credits. Yeah. The legacy of delayed opening credits a lot.

38:08David Sims:I hope you're going to make the point I hope you're going to make. Well, first of all, obviously this podcast would not exist were it not for Raising Arizona and the delayed opening credits habit. Yeah. but you're wearing a hat. John, thank you. I was teeing this up and I got sidetracked. The listener at home or in the car or wherever you are and the D-van where you recreate can't see that Riffin is wearing a very specific hat. A very specific hat. I wasn't sure if he thought that. On perhaps the one year anniversary or close to it. Just about. Of us going to the movies together to see a movie called Hundreds of Beavers.

38:41David Sims:You and I have an ecstatic in-theater experience. A film I talked about a lot last year and in our Blankies Awards this year. Yeah. But a similar like where the fuck did this come from? Who are these people? But that is a movie that takes I believe one full hour to get to the credits. I saw that film twice in theaters and both times the audience applauds because the magic trick of like oh fuck I somehow didn't clock that you hadn't done that yet. Yeah. Yeah. It's a great feeling. And that's a movie that's similar to what I imagine seeing Raising Arizona in theaters felt like. Yeah. And Edgar Wright talks about this as like the most important movie of his life and you feel the influence.

39:16David Sims:so much on all of his work that he sees this and goes, you can make movies like this? That's how I felt. And I never made a movie, by the way. But I know from seeing the movie, you can make movies like this if you aren't lazy and tired like me. But I mean, like, you can do whatever you want. I had never considered the possibility until this moment that movies could be made this way. And even though Star Wars didn't exist at that time, we were already, I think, in the beginning of the stranglehold of the hero's journey on screenplay writing, both popular and artistic. And here was a movie that was destabilizing precisely because it doesn't follow a pattern that you understand.

39:58You're getting a whole pre-story before you get to the credits. Then it changes tone or it slows down. It has these wild comedic sequences that are basically... Looney Tunes.

40:13David Sims:Heroes of the film are ostensibly doing a pretty awful thing. Yeah. For very emotionally valid reasons. And then Randall Tex Cobb drives a motorcycle from hell into it. And, you know, I remember people critiquing it then and revisiting these critiques. It's like, well, now I don't know if this is even real. Yes. I'm like, of course it's not real. It's a movie. Saw this in so many reviews at the time. Well, I don't even know what reality this film takes place in. I don't know. Is this a fantasy or what? Is this a magic? Take it seriously? David, how was your pee? Yeah. Great.

40:42Griffin Newman:Flannery O 'Connor and William Faulkner are influences on them. They say they specifically took the phrase, warthog from hell from Flannery O 'Connor. Preston Sturgis. And then Pumbaa took it from them. Preston Sturgis is obviously an influence on them. They say Palm Beach story in particular, the manic energy of that film, a masterpiece in every single way. Yes. And you guys might not have realized this, because you haven't mentioned it at all, neither have I. Cartoons. Cartoons. Ethan Cohen says, we thought about those characters who rebound and collide. Simply their speed of movement. We tried to refine the spirit of animation you find in pinball machines.

41:20Griffin Newman:He's got the Woody Woodpecker tattoo.

41:22David Sims:The hairstyle is a very deliberate Woody Woodpecker homage. Cage was very, very disciplined, focused, intense about the idea that his hair had to match the relationship to the character's energy in the scene. that there's a direct correlation between hair height and, right, how cartoonish he becomes. And yet, I mean, like, even though he identifies as the outlaw, right, and he's like, isn't my son a little outlaw and I'm a little outlaw and everything else, he doesn't have it in him to be a Bugs Bunny or a Woody Woodpecker. No. He's too nice. Yeah. He's too decent, ultimately. Well, they can't say, am I a stinker?

42:02David Sims:It's funny. Aren't I a stinker? I feel like when they talk about this movie now, Both the Coens and Cage. I'm talking about the characters. Yeah. It's not Cage. Yeah. I feel like they talk about Wile E. Coyote, right? Yeah. And Wile E. Coyote is in pursuit of a thing. Yeah. That much like them wanting to steal the baby, you're like, isn't this going to harm other people when you do this? And yet the pursuit seems so pure and not malicious. Right. And driven by these, like, unquenchable human needs. And also they're just constantly getting fucked with. Like, even though Wile E. Coyote is the aggressor, he is the pitiful, empathetic character because you're just like, this guy's getting it from all directions.

42:44David Sims:And also, much like Cage, there's just some kind of inherent sadness baked into the design of this character. The saddest eyes in cinema. That's right. I was just going to say they really made a lot of those eyes. And then what? They really found the sadness in those eyes. What if Wile E. Coyote, who is silent, instead has the inner monologue of fucking Flannery O 'Connor? You know? Like, that is the brilliant characterization of this movie. It's like, this guy's got like a poet's soul. Yeah. And, you know, David, as you were saying, people are like, well, how did they learn to do this? I don't know.

43:17They read books and saw movies? Yeah. And interpreted it? Yeah. Well, no, but you're like, you know, this is inspired by Preston Sturgis. It's inspired by Flannery O 'Connor.

43:27Griffin Newman:I think the Coen brothers have the juice. I'm going to say it. This is their first film with Donna Isaacson, who is an early casting director that they work with. Works with them on the next three films, too. Also worked with Danny Boyle later on. She made some quite good discoveries in the casting of this film. Really? I didn't notice anyone in this movie that really had an enduring career. That's interesting. Donna Isaacson. This is a great quote from her. I will say, anytime I talk to a casting director, pretty much the greatest people on earth to talk to, if you like care about movies like in a certain way.

43:59Griffin Newman:The thing about the Coen brothers is they embrace a concept and a place in a world and they're completely faithful to that world. If you don't hear the music of the script, you're not right for it. You have to hear it. That's dead on. Nicolas Cage quickly takes the film story in tone. Not shockingly. Like truly not like, you know, really like he heard it. He says he understood where the humor was, what beats musically to hit. Other people considered Willem Dafoe. interesting right off of like platoon essentially would have been too dark probably

44:31David Sims:you think

44:33Griffin Newman:would have been a little

44:34David Sims:too scary

44:35Griffin Newman:yeah I mean even Willem in whimsy mode usually does have a hint of malevolence

44:40David Sims:Willem holding a baby your immediate thought is is he gonna eat that baby yeah I mean it's like and it doesn't matter the context the movie has built around the character it's like instead of instead of casting someone with the saddest eyes in cinema what if we had H.I. McDonough have retractable jaws like alien The meanest teeth in cinema.

45:00Griffin Newman:Kevin Costner and Nicolas Cage had the same agent at the time. This was a big discovery from JJ. Of William Morris. And the agent was like, both of my guys are too big for this movie. Like essentially both of my guys are hitting right now. They're about to be big stars. They don't need to be doing a tiny movie like this. And they certainly don't want to audition for it. Exactly. Kevin Cage essentially a junior agent convinces Lamano to let Cage meet the Coens but not read and I guess it's a status thing I guess that was sort of enough for the Coens but then Costner is so determined he agrees to read without telling his agent he like surreptitiously reads Costner really wanted this which is fascinating he read opposite Holly Hunter then Cage hears about this so Cage is like fine I'll read you know like they start to fight for it and Cage gets the role obviously a perfect like Cage must have this role.

45:59Griffin Newman:Oh absolutely. I don't Costner getting this role his entire career is probably different. He might be okay. I don't know

46:06David Sims:When we did our Costner series we talked about the Silverado thing right and how much he loved playing that kind of Rapscallion character and basically right after that he is pushed not against his will, but they're like, congratulations, you are the grand oak tree of America. Yeah, you're the new Gary Cooper. Right. And I think he was still in this point where he's like, can I play the fucking fun dangerous guys? Can I be ha ha ha ha Woody Woodpecker? Yes. Now, I think Costner would have been... I don't want to say too sincere, but I think it's the thing that Cage gets. He would be too grounded.

46:40David Sims:Yes. And the expression... I think Costner can be funny, and I think he can be big, but he's best at sort of understated you know, kind of off the shoulder kind of stuff. Look, Bull Durham. He's phenomenal. Okay, here's a movie where obviously he plays a different kind of, like he's not a rap scout. Well, he is a rap scout. He is. He's a rap scout. A movie full of verbal dexterity like this movie. Yeah. Like lines that are big meals. Yeah. And also featuring Nathan Arizona's in that movie too. Yep. Before he died at the age of 40. Incredible. That is the hardest 40. That anyone has ever lived to.

47:18Yeah. But, you know, he... Trey Wilson is the actress. But Bull Durham is a... Even though it's a wackadoo film with some real funny parts to it, it's not a cartoon fantasy.

47:29David Sims:It's also built around Costner's stoic magnetism, which this movie needs to be fucking propulsive. And I also think for how much Cage has been on the record talking about his theories and his principles on acting, right? Yeah. And how he thinks that acting can be impressionistic, right? Right. And that is his approach. He thinks about rather than just like embodying a character in the reality, honestly, that he's like, I'm a piece of equipment. I'm part of visual storytelling. It doesn't need to reflect reality. It needs to reflect a feeling or an idea. Yeah. And I think that's the part of him that reads the script and not only gets the language of it, but understands visually what he needs to be in the movie and how to manipulate his body and do things.

48:15David Sims:He has a physical rubberiness that matches the Looney Tunes tone. He's like, what I'm doing in relation to these fucking wide-angle lenses is a big part of it rather than like, what is my motivation? My motivation is I know what this shot should look like.

48:32Griffin Newman:Right. Now, the Coens, as you guys may or may not know, are not the kind of guys who are like, yeah, do whatever you want. They are like, read the lines. We have a pretty autocratic sense of this.

48:42David Sims:They never worked with Cage again. Nope. And it's not like they...

48:44Griffin Newman:I don't think they did not get along basically at all. They kind of talk about it in this way of everyone's like happy now.

48:51David Sims:Cage talks about it the same way where he's like, you know, they have that meeting. They're like, hell yeah, this guy gets it. And then in classic Cage fashion, he shows up to set every day and it's like, here's 10 new ideas they had. And they're like, right. And what we want you to do is what we wrote and here are the storyboards. And he's like, but what if I did that upside down? And they're like, right. And what we wrote and the storyboards are what you should be doing. and they've talked a lot about you know they start out with three million dollars they end up with six million dollars whatever the way they make this movie look this big and this great and this tight on that budget is they were just like obsessive meticulous planning which is their story of their success going forward and as things go on they're like we build a perfect plan and then we're still open to things changing on the day if a better idea comes along but at this early point and with them getting such a big shot at like the studio big leagues they're like we've nailed this down and the only way this movie is going to work is if we stick to our plan and cage coming in and being like what about this dreadlock wig i think they were just like nick stand there have you ever seen the movie trading places i'd like to because i dan akkroyd on the amtrak train the frustrating part of it must have been to them that they're like this guy gets it right had the meeting he's locked in we're not having to trick him into this performance we're just like stop throwing out other stuff on top of this people look it's really hard when someone says i know better than you yep and it's especially hard when they do like everyone hates to know it all especially when they know pretty much all cage is the one who puts the

50:27Griffin Newman:woody woodpecker uh tattoo on because he's like i think my character is woody woodpecker come to life.

50:33David Sims:And you need the audience to understand like, the movie's telling you how to watch it. This guy's a cartoon character.

50:39Griffin Newman:The Coen's probably tolerated that because they're like, if it's just going on your body and you're not going to, you're going to say the lines as we wrote them, okay.

50:46David Sims:But they also repurpose it into something that then thematically matters at the end of the movie. When he tears the ice. Yeah.

50:52Griffin Newman:Cage used to make little movies called Super 8, well, on Super 8 cameras. Sure. And so did the Coens. And so Cage said they had this thing called a Super 8 feeling. they would talk about together. Like when they were doing something that they both were excited by, the Coens and Cage on this movie, they would say, we're getting that Super 8 feeling.

51:11David Sims:That's so linked also to the fucking like Ramey Brothers, Campbell. I mean, I want to circle back to this, but there is like such a continuum even just within the history of this show of like Road Warrior, Evil Dead, and this movie, you know? Or even you could say road warrior evil dead 2 and this movie all feel like a thing that was happening through connection

51:38Griffin Newman:right yeah the one time they claimed that they maybe were going to work together again um is this movie called 62 skidoo which was kind of like a hippie surfer movie the cohen's would talk about sometime that they would be like we'd like like it's like a cold war comedy with about like amnesia and it's like a funny manchurian candidate and like we want cage to do that yeah so like they never were like we'd absolutely and this is in the 2000s that they're talking

52:08David Sims:about this right i mean like they have the the respect for cage especially when the guy becomes like a fucking 20 million dollar movie star with an oscar right but it never came together and

52:17Griffin Newman:obviously cage's career kind of sputters out in the mid-2000s we'll talk about this reviving right

52:22David Sims:2010 is really late 2000s is when it really hits a wall but well he really hated bees he hated them yeah that was probably the problem had to work with bees we'll talk about this in many weeks from now but Lady Killers was originally set up as a Nicolas Cage vehicle directed by Barry Sonnenfeld uh and it is when Cage I forget what movie he ends up doing instead of that drops out that Sonnenfeld walks away and goes I should ask my buddies the Coens if they want to do this I've never seen that movie I like it.

52:53Griffin Newman:Holly Hunter calls it a very self-conscious movie. She's not wrong. But not in a negative way. She says, Joel and Ethan function without their egos, or maybe their egos are so big they're completely secure with anyone who disagrees with them. Either way. Sure. Frances McDormand's take is, I can't imagine Joel ever making a movie that was actor-oriented. Like a Sophie's Choice, where you set up the camera and two actors work together. He sets up the mood, he talks about rhythm. She means that, I think. She's talking about her husband, of course. She loves him and she's worked with him many, many times.

53:25Griffin Newman:Right. But she means that and is sort of like, that's what he does. Right. Like, you know, if you want this experience, you're not going to get it at the Coen Brothers shop. Well, they're animators in a way. You know, we talk about this as a cartoon. They think of, they're creating a visual and emotional landscape that has timing and performances that they have pre-vis.

53:43David Sims:It's similar to Wes Anderson where it's not like, hey actors, what are you thinking? Let's do a blocking rehearsal. and based on what you do, I will adjust and figure out how to film this. They're like, here's my movie and if I hired you because I trust you and I know you're going to figure out how to bring humanity to this, but that's your job. Speaking of that, the big jolt of electricity that I had rewatching, I've seen this movie many times. And it is a movie that one of the, my wife is a whole human being in a room right, and I both love movies. We share a lot of taste. Humble brain. but she doesn't like to watch movies a lot sure because they take time you love watching them you will text us once a week and go guys if I have three free hours what should I see this afternoon or what should I rent and you know like it's just one of those things where it's like do you want to watch something I don't care put anything on in the background but there are a couple of movies where if I put it on she'll tune right in she's like I think I've seen this movie 12 times and I'll watch it another 12

54:37Griffin Newman:it's an easy easy easy movie to rewatch yeah like right you don't put this on and go like oh I'm so exhausted by raising Arizona. I had a long day yesterday.

54:46David Sims:I got home late. It's invigorating. And I was just like, I'm thrilled to spool this movie up at 11.30 p.m. But the jolt of electricity that hit me... Yeah. ...this time watching was, oh, this is Wes Anderson before Wes Anderson. Yeah. Yeah. And I had never thought of that. I'm sure this is very obvious to everybody. But this is a decade before Rushmore. Yeah. And it's very clear. I mean, Wes Anderson... has his own set of influences, his own set of preoccupations. Obviously, I don't want to take any agency away from Wes Anderson, but it's like there is a shared DNA, obviously. Yes, and I think the same to Shaun of the Dead.

55:26David Sims:There is like, right, a generation of guys who are coming up like 10 years after who see this movie and it blows their minds. Sits with them. And especially making a comedy that is this visual. Yeah. I mean, that's the way Edgar Wright describes it, is seeing it and going like, if you can make a comedy look like this, then why aren't all comedies like this? and they said the first time he directed something, he was like, oh, I get why they're not all like this now. It's impossible and it requires you being a genius with the best collaborators in the world. And it also goes against, I mean, it is a completely different kind of comedy that was certainly now and certainly then as well.

55:59There is no, we're talking about it, where there's no improvisation. Yep. There's no like, yeah, let's just take a fun run at this one.

56:06David Sims:This movie does not have many conventional jokes, even in a way that later coin films do. No, stuff like the balloon line.

56:13Griffin Newman:That's kind of a conventional-ish joke. But yeah, it's not a set-up punchline kind of movie. No, it's a joke in the sense that it's a silly thing that's sad. Right.

56:21David Sims:It's moments. Yeah. That aren't like about build-up payoff, which so much of comedy is, you know? I wish I knew something about it. Join the club. Only build-up. Someday payoff. I think there is something. We've been talking around this a little bit, right? Okay, here we go. But that this is sort of like the first generation of filmmakers who grew up on Looney Tunes and such. Yes. Where it's impacting their work. Right. There are people who are working simultaneously and people like Frank Tashlin who started out as a Looney Tunes director and then became a live action director. Who then works with Jerry Lewis which then affects Jerry Lewis's directing style when he starts making stuff.

57:01David Sims:Which of course then radicalizes the French. Yeah. Like bleeds out in all this way. Right. But here's like the first generation of directors who grew up watching this stuff. And there's the bizarre visual language of like manic 40s, 50s, 60s theatrical short cartoons baked into their brains. Right. Now, those things could do anything because they used a fucking pencil. Right. And you could draw anything you imagined. But traditional animation was very limited in terms of camera movement. It was almost impossible to do. Disney created the multi-plane camera which was to be able to replicate the idea of camera movement within animation but it was mostly used for establishing shots wasn't really used for action or dialogue scenes or anything that was really moving the plot forward it feels like there are these three movies like George Miller with Mad Max Sam Raimi with Evil Dead and Blood Simple with the Coens that are all them trying to infuse a little bit of that sensibility into something that's a little more dramatic.

58:03David Sims:And then on the second movies, they all, with the confidence under their wings, heighten and go like, I'm going to try to make a live action cartoon. I want to capture the way those Looney Tunes feel. And the big key to all three of them, and they talk about how influential Road Warrior was on them, and obviously watching Raimi do this stuff as their friend and working with him. And seeing how it could be done. And this movie has so much fucking Road Warrior in it. Oh, Road Warrior, yeah. Yeah, and Ramey too, obviously. But I think there's something to all three of these director-director teams.

58:38David Sims:Cracking the code on how do you use the camera, the thing that animation can't do, to convey the energy of what animation can do in character, right? And in reality. and like those three movies unlock something in terms of like this is how you can use the camera to make you feel action in a way that no one has before horror in a way that no one has before comedy in a way that no one has before the magic of those movies is all three of them have elements of the other bleeding into them right but you just watch this and you're like some of the funniest jokes in this movie are just that this is shot that way and they know that it's not by accident Right.

59:19David Sims:Yeah. Yeah. And a lot of that is Sonnenfeld, who like, you know, you look at the early part of his career, one of the few guys to have any level of actual high level success jumping from DP to director. Right. And the movies, at least the first five or six, that are so good that he directed and didn't shoot. You can see in execution everything he kind of like what he the code he cracked with the Coen's of. What's the funniest lens? What's the funniest place to put a camera in relation to an actor? What's the funniest camera movement? Right. And I think his innate sense of humor really helped them in that way understand how to translate that into a language.

59:59Yeah, for sure. That's my spiel. Put the camera under the bed. Put the camera under the crib. Funny. Have a baby crawling towards the lens. Yeah. It's baby Herman before baby Herman or around the same time, actually, I think. Yeah. Right. Baby Herman's the following year.

1:00:12David Sims:80s were big for babies. And then put the camera under the car and have Nicolas Cage crawl towards it like a baby. Like a baby. And be pulled back by his awful evil doppelganger. John Goodman. John Goodman. I'm going to say this. He's a good, not just a good man, a good actor. John's a great actor. Okay.

1:00:31Griffin Newman:I'll hear your argument. Obviously, he's got small roles in movies. Revenge of the Nerds. Starting in 83, like Revenge of the Nerds or whatever. but True Stories, which is the year before, which is a great movie. Obviously somewhat undersung at the time, I feel like. Astounding in that film. And if it's sung at all, it's sung with the lyrics of meow meow. Because John Goodman did that in True Stories when he's trying to remember a song. He goes, meow meow meow meow meow. And that was another great moment in my life when I saw that happen. So True Stories is the year before Raising Arizona, but the Coens are very definitive.

1:01:07Griffin Newman:Like we chose him before True Stories was shot. Like, they are basically, like, we truly discovered John Goodman. He came to our... Fuck you, David Byrne. Parallel thinking. Right. He came to our... And it is funny because, right, True Stories is Texas and this is Arizona, but both kind of tales of, like, lonely souls on the prairie, you know what I mean? Like, they do have somewhat similar energies, even though True Stories is much less cartoony, I guess. More emo. Yeah. Although it can be cartoony in a lot of ways. True Stories is like based on a bunch of National Enquirer articles, I believe.

1:01:41David Sims:Yeah, and sort of the idea of those types of articles as much as actual articles. But they both sat in a very established sort of cultural moment of kitschy Southwestern Americana, which infected a lot of music and visuals and film at the time. We were talking about this. Fancy, smarty pants, hipstery type stuff. Oh, very smart. Like it was fun to exoticize for big city folk to exoticize the American Southwest in particular. And while it is not, in my opinion, offensive, they are doing an invented dialect that does not exist. Yes, yes. It's not. It is a kind of funny exoticization. Yes. It's a cartoon.

1:02:25They're cartoon characters.

1:02:26David Sims:And I even think I could see people being like, this movie is making fun of H.I. McDonough by saying, why is this idiot having these sort of like faux literary profound thoughts, right? That it's like a punching down of like, wouldn't it be funny if this dumb yokel has this incredibly verbal way of speaking? The beauty of this guy having all of this. A rocky, a barren place where my seed could find no purchase. Right. They're like, it is an active. Yeah, because rural people can't be smart at all. Right. Right. I think the implication is they're making comedy out of how unlikely that is. Whereas I think their thing is, imagine a guy like this who no one takes seriously.

1:03:08David Sims:And what if there's like a universe of emotion and thought inside of him?

1:03:12Griffin Newman:I feel like Moonstruck, this, and Wild at Heart. I know he's also got like Vampire's Kiss and Valley Girl. He's got other iconic movies of this year. But those three, which 87, 87, 90.

1:03:22David Sims:Yeah.

1:03:22Griffin Newman:He's doing the same thing in all three Where he's like yeah He's kind of got the gift of the gab In this weird supernatural way about it He seems like salt of the earth Or diamond in the rough or something But then he'll monologue in this romantic Sincere way that you can't believe It's coming out of this wackadoo's mouth The waters run deep Yeah

1:03:42David Sims:He's so good Here's a good one thing I want to say Before we talk about Cage a little more We were doing prep for the King Ralph show And you made a point that has stuck with me as we've been talking about Goodman for months now. Sure. A year of Goodman for us on this podcast. A year of Goodman. Right. That he so seamlessly, quietly, in such an unshowy way, adjusts his dialect around wherever he's playing. Oh, yeah. That you always kind of, when watching any movie, go like, right, I guess John Goodman is from Arizona, right? Right. Where you're like, for a guy you don't think of as being like, oh, he's like an accent guy.

1:04:20David Sims:He's a guy who transforms. he does voices or whatever. He just like very, very subtly but accurately off the cuff adjusts to wherever the character he's playing is from. Yeah.

1:04:32Griffin Newman:Missouri, of course, by birth or whatever. But Missouri can be from anywhere.

1:04:36David Sims:You buy him in the bayou. You buy him in the Midwest. You buy him as a city guy. You know, a tough talker. Yeah. You buy him when he's eating fried chicken with you in an open field and he's about to beat you up. Smacks you with a big old branch.

1:04:50Griffin Newman:What if he wanted to tell you to go fuck yourself but kind of with like, you know, like adding in a little pun.

1:04:56David Sims:I think he would need to cross-reference with a kind of brash, old-school New York Hollywood producer. Right, sort of. Old-school Hollywood. They'd have to build a room together, batting ideas back and forth. I'm at a complete loss to what they're talking about. I mean, what if he was the king? Of England. What if John Goodman was the king? Have you ever considered that? One of the most profound questions. By the way, Ben, nice to see you over there. Hi there, Ben. It's great to see you. Yeah. Always a pleasure to have you on the podcast. Thanks for the friendly chat, by the way. You're so welcome.

1:05:23I should have worn it today. I forgot. It's okay.

1:05:26David Sims:a rival podcast. It's true. Hollywood hamper. I'm just going to say, I want to say to the listeners, Ben, send me a Friendly's hat. And I'm going to just say, I've said it before and I'll say it again, Jesus cock, that's a hot hat. Hell yeah. Damn it. I got to clip that. I got to use that quote. I really do. You need it as a banner on top of the side. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I'd like to see it embroidered on the back over the ponytail hole in the back of the adjustable cap. You know what I'm saying? I really like that. Jesus cock, that's a hot hat. Yeah. Sims. Take it. What year is Valley Girl?

1:05:58Griffin Newman:Valley Girl is pretty early in his career. It's 83. Okay. And he's done, at this point, a couple of the Coppola movies. He's in Rumble Fish and Cotton Club. He's in Birdie.

1:06:08David Sims:Has Peggy Sue not happened yet?

1:06:10Griffin Newman:Peggy Sue is the year before. She's not yet married. Which he is good in, in like a sort of broad role, but he's good. I think he is phenomenal in that movie. I have not seen that movie since I was a teenager. I mostly remember Kathleen, obviously.

1:06:25David Sims:I think he's truly phenomenal, but it's the classic tale of like, Coppola is like, Nick, I got great news for you. I've convinced the studio to hire you for this part. I've been giving you these little side showy character parts, but you're the romantic lead of this movie. Nick, I got good news for you. Finally in Hollywood, nepotism works. Yes. And he reads the script and is like, I find this character boring. I don't want to do it. Right. And Coppola's like, what the fuck are you talking about? Right. And he was like, okay.

1:06:52Griffin Newman:I have like moved heaven and earth here.

1:06:54David Sims:Let me go to the lab and see if I can come up with a good take. And he gets back to Coppola and he's like, I'm going to play him like Pokey from Gumby. And Coppola's like, the fuck are you talking about? But it works. It's genius. It's like one of the earliest examples of Cage in a sort of leading man role, taking the least conventional route to something that then ends up affecting in a genuine way. Yeah. And hitting on real emotions and real thoughts, in my opinion. But I do think that's kind of a turnkey for him. I also think you talk about the Super 8 feeling, right? Yeah. There is obviously the Coppola family dynasty, you know, the mountain of nepotism that is that family.

1:07:29David Sims:But also, as he's always quick to call out, he was the son of the black sheep in the family. Like he was the son of the one guy who kind of didn't figure it out and had the same aspirations in the entertainment industry as did his mother as well. And so obviously he was close to the cousins who were going on to massive success. Right. But he was like there was always this energy of like we're the fuck upside of the family. Yeah. And they all almost treated me with a bit of pity. It's like he had been placed in a cage. A Nicolas cage.

1:08:01Griffin Newman:Over to you, David. The film shot for 13 weeks. Certainly wouldn't. A$6 million movie these days would not be getting a 13-week shoot, I don't think. No. In Arizona, Sonnenfeld, Barry Sonnenfeld, of course, the cinematographer here. I feel like, I mean, as great a job as he does on Blood Simple, this is his, like, a calling card movie. Yeah. and as I was saying to my wife last night who's seen it before but I was just like everything about this movie is good but the way the camera moves was so bananas like people were just like I don't understand how they did this

1:08:32David Sims:yeah and Miller's Crossing is a beautiful looking movie right but it's him doing a much more kind of conventional constrained yeah and he's doing other stuff beautifully constrained he's doing other stuff in this era like When Harry Met Sally that is also like gorgeously lensed but this is the Colin Card movie that yes I think like makes people trust he probably could direct as well. And his entire directing career is really built off of the language he establishes in this movie.

1:08:59Griffin Newman:Like, right, you see Adam's family in Men in Black in this movie much more than you do in Men in Black. Yeah, sure, all of it. They're all, Sonnenfeld says, they're all a little nervous. They got a real budget this time. This is nerve-wracking. You don't want to fuck this up in the same way of Blood Simple, the different way Blood Simple's just like, eh, we'll see if anyone likes this. big note they got at the test screenings. They didn't like the rabbit blowing up. Interesting. I think this is something that Cohen's run into once in a while, where they're like, why do you guys care about us wounding animals?

1:09:32Griffin Newman:Squeezing a frog. That's the number one thing audiences. They didn't care about the lizard being shot off the rock? Maybe they cared about that too. Yeah. For all we know, that rabbit ran away as soon as that grenade hit the ground. We don't know. You're right, though. It is funny. It's a wascally rabbit. A wascally rabbit. Oh, excuse me. You're right. They do work with Carter Browell again, of course. you know, continuing, obviously one of the greatest collaborators, but initially they were like, this movie might not be groovy enough for you, which is, I don't know what that means exactly. He's a rock and roll guy.

1:09:59Griffin Newman:Burwell said the score is improvised using household objects like peanut butter jars and vacuum cleaner hoses. That's fun. Fucking, yeah. Ben. And then, of course, the yodeling. What?

1:10:10David Sims:Improvised score using peanut butter jars? No reaction from you? I mean, I love it.

1:10:16Griffin Newman:I love the inventiveness. Sounds cool as hell. Yeah, it does. He's too busy ordering some hot hats.

1:10:24Griffin Newman:An honest-to-goodness Oki named John Crowder did the yodeling. Honest-to-goodness Oki. I always thought that it was Pete Seeger, but it's not. Pete Seeger's on the soundtrack somewhere, but I love Pete Seeger. But Carter Burwell, I mean, one of the only composers where I will just listen to the soundtrack. John Williams level, as far as I'm concerned, in terms of creating mood, tension, world.

1:10:52David Sims:They feel like wordless operas even listened to on their own. What is your ringtone? It's the theme from Tootsie. Peter Bishop, something's telling me it must be you. That is very funny, and I can't believe I have never witnessed this go off. Well, that's because it's only keyed to one person in my life. Your wife? Who's a whole human being in her own right, and shall remain unnamed. I'm a brag. You know what is really funny that I think about a tremendous amount? Weird that that movie's called Tootsie. Oh, she said it was a pocket dial, by the way. Oh, wow. So everything's fine. We have talked about that a billion times.

1:11:28David Sims:It's not a character name. It's one of like 40 nicknames they call her. I was just listening to this podcast. Okay, then whatever, move on.

1:11:34Griffin Newman:I just want to say also for the record that I was distracted, yes, but I was reading Randall Tech's Cobb's Wikipedia. He's quite a character. Here's the thing about him. He was a professional fighter. Famous chin. Famous chin. In many ways. And I could kind of tell by just his vibe. He was a professional kickboxer in the 70s. Yeah. And yeah, famous chin that often paradoxically overshadowed his incredible nose. He had close a nose. As though he were doing a headstand. Because that's how the sun would cast a shadow. Yes. But you see what I mean? That nose. And I don't know. Were you going to talk about him later?

1:12:13I mean, we must talk about him.

1:12:15Griffin Newman:I'm sure we'll talk about Randall Tex Cobb. Are we putting a pin in Randall Tex Cobb? We're pulling a pin out. There we go. We're blowing up. We'll blow up this rabbit later.

1:12:24David Sims:Incredible Joel quote about Randall Tex Cobb. He's less an actor than a force of nature. Dot, dot, dot. I don't know if I'd rush headlong into employing him for a future film. Weirdly, that's the only way you can employ him. This does feel like you have to headbutt him five times before he agrees to be in the movie.

1:12:41Griffin Newman:This film has Holly Hunter and John Goodman and Francis McDormand. Lifetime, like, Coen folk, right? Yes, right. But it also does have Nicolas Cage and Randall Dick's Cop, where they're like, once was fine. Yeah. We let the genie out of the bottle and we did not try to recapture it.

1:12:57David Sims:Well, even Emmett Walsh, who appears in this, and it's his final Coen film. Tiny role, yes. Where he always had this kind of chip on his shoulder of like, why didn't they keep hiring me? And their line was like, he was difficult. Right. We found our people who are very simpatico. and when you find a Goodman or a Hunter, you hold on to them forever. Yeah. I mean, it really does, it would say something to you as an actor if you do not get invited back because so many people are getting invited back. Yes. And of course, as we alluded to, the wonderful Trey Wilson was not invited back because he died tragically at a young age.

1:13:30I would have hoped that they would use him again.

1:13:33David Sims:Yes. He was supposed to be the Albert Finney part in Miller's Crossing and died so shortly before production. Yes. Finney replaces him like a week before the movie starts. Oh, well, then I'm glad he died. So that was supposed to be... Sorry, I don't mean it that way. But also, clearly, that was them being like, we want to give this guy like a grand Shakespearean role.

1:13:50Griffin Newman:I didn't mean that the way it came out.

1:13:53David Sims:That was a pretty brutal reaction. It was tough. And Finney is incredible in Miller's Crossing. I knew what I was saying when I said it. And I think I've been appropriately respectful of the talent of Trey Wilson, whose performance in this movie is outstanding. And that clearly... He's very good. it reflection that they were like you know what we should do we should write like right we should

1:14:13Griffin Newman:media for trey wilson because he really crushes the final scene of the film which is very important to this film like sort of i don't know feeling like more than a confection everyone at the time who said that they were not human that they were right that they were walk out they were right movie about movies or they're making an imitation looney tune yeah i mean what they were making an imitation Looney Tune, but then they took their Yosemite Sam and made him the most heartfelt voice of morality in the film. Right. That sets them on the proper path at the end of the movie, no surprise.

1:14:50David Sims:How could anyone who isn't a humanist land there? And put that in your movie. And that, I mean, you know, when I think about, look, I adore Wes Anderson. Very, very important movie maker to me. I love so many of those movies. Humble brag. That I like him. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Fair enough. And that he's his own, his own person, his own right. Yeah. A whole person. But I, but I, you know, I spend a lot of time thinking about, you know, what are the differences between the Coen's sense of manner and style and Wes Anderson's. Wes Anderson had a lot more, I mean, we're talking about directors that create very specific visual compositions.

1:15:34Yeah. That sometimes they're, I mean, the Coens are, in a way, they initiated meta into cinema in the sense that they were making homages to other kinds of movies. Yeah.

1:15:47David Sims:Genres of movies. And the type of movie that constantly reminds you that it is a movie. That it is a movie. Mm-hmm. That we're referencing Preston Sturges and the Looney Toons, or we're gonna make a gangster film, or we're gonna make this Martin Fink movie, which is itself about movies, that aboutness that so many people take as being cold and reserved. Yes. And even the The camera joke in Blood Simple, where the camera is tracking along the bar and then has to jump up over the passed out patron, is a joke that to some people goes like, holy shit, who the fuck are these guys? And to other people, you're like, why are you puncturing the reality of this movie?

1:16:22David Sims:Yeah. Or you don't even see it. You're making a thriller. Yeah. And now you're making a joke that's like, you guys know this is a movie, right? We're going to make a joke about your understanding of how a camera moves. And, you know, Wes Anderson movies have profound human emotion in them as well. and my favorite of his is Moonrise Kingdom because I think so much of Wes Anderson's movies are preoccupations with lost childhood, obviously. But I don't, like, for me, this performance by Trey Wilson at the end really, like, it grounded and humanized everything that had been going on. It represented a theme of real emotion.

1:16:57Yeah. But just to be able to take that moment and move so seamlessly and not the word I'm looking for. They weren't creating a contradiction. Yeah. Their movement between highly stylized and mannered and then highly human and naturalistic was so beautifully done there. Something's happening within the same frame, within the same scene. Yeah. And another reason people get a hard time getting a handle on them is by now you know exactly what a Wes Anderson movie looks and feels like.

1:17:28David Sims:Yes. But with a Coen Brothers movie, you never knew. They can mix it up a lot. And they would do it on purpose. And they'd be virtuosic at every level. This sounds like I'm picking winners and losers, like the federal government or something. Well, I know. But I mean, I just hadn't really appreciated what this movie and what the Coens did in terms of 90s cinema. Yes. You know what I mean? Like, first of all, making a movie that could be about or could be imitating cartoons and Preston Sturges and everything else. the stylistic or the narrative loop-de-loop that they do in this movie and in other movies.

1:18:04There's no Pulp Fiction without that. Yeah. You know? Agreed.

1:18:08David Sims:Another movie that banks on you understanding this is a movie and playing on your knowledge of how movies work and what they should or shouldn't be doing. And, you know, meta was my language in the 90s. And if you know anything about my work, mostly I'm just riffing on movies and television shows that I've seen. You know what I mean? And I hate to say that maybe the Coen brothers made that habit respectable for me for a period of time. Perhaps. You know what I mean? But I do think it's respectable. I mean, all we do is make things about the things that we love. I mean, look at the room we are in and the career that we have built for ourselves.

1:18:42The other thing is that while this movie has a lot of babies in it, it is not about lost childhood. It is about parenthood and the fear of becoming a parent.

1:18:52David Sims:Yeah, I also think there's something interesting to like Wes Anderson doesn't talk about his childhood much. He doesn't talk about his relationship with his father when he's like doing press. Yeah, those things are kind of mysterious. And yet you watch his movies and you're like, I understand that there is stuff that he is still working through. Right. It's weird because, yeah, sorry, go ahead. Even if I can't identify exactly what his experiences are in the same way that, like, everyone from the beginning knew Spielberg's parents got divorced and he never got over it. Right. And it took a while for us to get more, a fuller picture of what happened there.

1:19:24David Sims:Yeah. It was like, there's a thing here. I just, like, I realized the other day, like, I know fucking nothing about Wes Anderson's dad. And yet we're all like, well, we understand the stuff that he's still fixated on and needing to push through. And the Coen's, it is a lot more oblique of like, what made you want to make this now? And is this truly just you riffing on some other genre, a type of movie you like? Or is there some animating idea within this that came out of some personal feeling or experience? And especially because they're two separate people, it is even harder to identify that sometimes.

1:20:01Griffin Newman:Yes, their only real thing is they wanted to do something completely the opposite from Blood Simple.

1:20:08David?

1:20:09David Sims:Yes. Did you know there's a new place where you, you specifically can let your nerdy freak flag fly?

1:20:16Griffin Newman:I did know that because it's a real digital town, Video Game Town. And it's populated by some of the best freelance writers on the internet, where you can read compelling editorials, reviews on the latest pop culture releases, get exclusive interviews with tastemakers, and even get rankings of sexy mascots if you're into that.

1:20:32David Sims:Video Game Town covers all things geek related. We've got coverage on meme culture, Film reviews from Sadant Al-Laka, articles dissecting television, both new and old, and a weekly podcast with some stellar guests.

1:20:45Griffin Newman:They deliver the kind of analysis, editorials, podcast videos, rankings, and nerdy ephemera that you can't find elsewhere. So check them out at videogame.town. And if you want to support the return of fully independent web media, you can directly support them on Patreon at patreon.com slash videogametown for exclusive articles and podcasts.

1:21:01David Sims:Videogame.town for new stuff every single day. Propel Fitness Water with Gatorade electrolytes, zero sugar, and vitamins.

1:21:12Griffin Newman:Propel hydrates better than water to help you get the most out of your workout and get back to your best self. What propels you? Propel with Gatorade electrolytes. This film is about H.I. Hi. McDonough. Herbert I. McDonough. A convenience store robber by trade, I guess. A low level. They have a name for him and it's recidivism. Yes. who meets Ed, Edwina McDonough, when she takes his mugshot over and over again. Little firecracker. Yes.

1:21:45David Sims:They basically have three meet-cutes over the course of the three arrests you witnessed. We got to it. It's an hour and 20 minutes.

1:22:01David Sims:But the second time he's arrested, he sees her crying uncontrollably.

1:22:07Griffin Newman:right is that the second time yeah she she her fiance leaves her during the her fiance uh that i didn't like that really that was one moment where i was like you're not treating this character with respect that was like it was too funny to it was too funny to not include yeah but that's the one joel and ethan cohen i know you're listening okay go back and make raising arizona the special edition i think it's funny it's funny of course it's funny i don't think it's a slight of her

1:22:38David Sims:intelligence i think it is more about how different dialects process different words which is a thing i've noticed comes up a lot in their films yes like even in fucking hail caesar when the original title yep when um when uh uh rare moment of studio interference about alden Aaron Reich, he goes, I work with actors, not rodeo clowns. And that's a joke about a guy being so pretentious, he says rodeo wrong, right? Of course, yeah. And I view finance— And rodeo drive. Yes. I view finance as the inverse of that joke. They love language, and it's obvious from everything they ever do, and it's another reason why I got such a—well, there's a literary term for it.

1:23:29I got a hard-on. for their work because of their love of language and dialect, even if the dialect is invented.

1:23:38Griffin Newman:Now, we spoke about this prologue. A hard on, I'm sorry. I should have said. I have a hard on. David's really happy right now. This prologue. I'm just going to turn away from Griffin. I'll just look at you now. He pulls me down. We act each other wrong. this prologue that is breakneck and romantic and sweet and sad. And in my opinion, just, I don't know how you don't, how you watch this and you're not like so energized by like the rest of it. You know, like the whole arc of them falling in love and, you know, getting together and she can't, you know, her womb is barren and his seed can find no purchase and they can't adopt.

1:24:25Griffin Newman:and they, you know, like where you're just like, yes, they're going to be okay. These like twin fires, right?

1:24:31David Sims:Well, I like that there's just some connection that keeps like being tested every time they have one interaction in between sentences, right? It's like they have this moment and then he's like locked up for six months and then he comes back and the moment continues. Right. And he has this moment of like lashing out at anger at the idea of her finance. Who would ever leave a woman like you that sticks with her is that the next time he's out, she's ready to lock it down, and he has a reason to not go back. Right. Yes. And that is so sweet and so powerful and is conveyed so quickly and so meaningfully so much through these performances, right?

1:25:11David Sims:But then you have this thing. It is such a good setup for the movie of, like, their earnest belief that, like, well, yes, he's a criminal, but she works in law enforcement. Doesn't that... Can't that balance out. It doesn't neutralize each other to make them adoptable. But you're like, from this setup, you're like, yeah, you're right. This is an unsolvable premise. They are never going to get approved for illegal adoption. Time to kidnap a Quint.

1:25:34Griffin Newman:Something has to be done. So local, regional furniture magnate Nathan, Arizona, played wonderfully by Trey Wilson. 37 years old in this movie? Yeah, and you're right, Griff. With the body of a 58-year-old. He gives off older. I cannot deny this. I was shocked to learn that he died at the age of 40.

1:25:51David Sims:I know he technically... died of like a hemorrhage but it does feel like he was the youngest person ever to die of old age um he has had quintuplets well you know how i feel about him i'm glad he's dead

1:26:04Griffin Newman:you went back to that one i was gonna set you up and then i was like maybe that's too mean um you did it anyway i did it for you david thank you um uh so they kind of have the about as altruistic a baby kidnapping ideas i guess you can have which is like well they got a lot of babies on their hands. We can just take one. We can just take one.

1:26:24David Sims:I like that part of the rationalization is almost like, that's so many kids we'd maybe be doing them a favor. They're probably stressed out with how many kids they have to handle.

1:26:34Griffin Newman:Now, you are not actually allowed, Ben's gesturing at me, you're not allowed to have all your multiple birth children in one crib, as this movie depicts. Some of the things in this movie are a little outside of reality. Let me ask you a question. Is it cool to put a loaded gun down in the crib? Dude, that is something that I think I don't think I really clocked as heavily as I did on this rewatch where I'm like, he never picks the gun back up. He just leaves it in the crib. I think he oncocks the hammer but that's about it. Like I kept waiting for the beat of him like, you know, I'm like he does pick the gun back up, right?

1:27:11Griffin Newman:And he's like and one more thing and I'm like, oh yeah, and then he talks to them some more and then he leaves the room. Yeah, he leaves these home invaders and kidnappers. Where are the other babies in that scene, by the way. Because it is nighttime.

1:27:22David Sims:Yeah, they're probably going on some Rugrats-style adventure. That must be it. It's four babies days out. Yeah, right. I can't remember if you said this on mic or off mic, but you were like, now any time you just have one of your twin boys in your arms, you're like, this is so easy. Shit is fucking child's point. I can't believe I ever complained about this with my daughter. 100%. I'm so used to the challenge.

1:27:46Griffin Newman:Having a kid for the first time, to be clear, to be sympathetic to people who listen to my show. Having a kid is very hard. And it's like, you know, I'm not trying to downplay that it's very hard to have a kid.

1:27:56David Sims:But you're saying the intensity doubled by having two more at the same time. Well, they always say

1:28:02Griffin Newman:it's like more than doubles, right? Like it's like, yeah, but yes.

1:28:05David Sims:And so I think there is this sort of like perverse backwards altruism in the idea of their scheme, which is like... It's interesting that you are able to have these characters be kidnappers and you don't lose sympathy for them. They're sort of reacting to the imagined idea of someone like David being like, oh my God, I can't believe I have to feed two kids at once. And assuming that means if you took one kid away, they would thank you. When in reality, of course that's not the case. Cut to Griffin and I on top of a ladder looking in a window in David's apartment. As whimsical. I take the left one, you take the right one.

1:28:41David Sims:He'll thank us both. As whimsical as this film is. He's got more than he can handle, Griffin.

1:28:45Griffin Newman:I mean, I do feel like this is a film when even the first time you're watching it, you kind of know like no babies are gonna die and everything's gonna be okay the tone of the film just sort of suggests like there will be no sort of horrifying sort of you know content in this

1:29:02David Sims:and i feel like the thing the film identifies that makes it so powerful and is the beating heart at the center of it what is actually the real source of narrative tension in this film more so than the demon on the motorcycle right or you know the idea of law enforcement catching up with them, the two breakout hooligans who are trying to rope him back into crime, is that they get this kid. They immediately form such a genuine emotional connection to him. Not just the idea of finally we're parents, but they really immediately connect with, oh, my God, I'm looking in the eyes of this creature and I'm feeling love.

1:29:38David Sims:Right. And then we got a family here. They are hearing on the news, not just like, I'm angry that someone stole my kid. Give him back. But like the actual kind of bereft kind of not bereft, the the grieving, the public grieving of these parents where you see on both Ed and H.I. like, fuck, we've done something wrong.

1:30:04Griffin Newman:Right.

1:30:04David Sims:That the level of love we immediately feel for this baby makes us understand the amount of pain that we're putting these two parents through. And how is this solvable? Because if we give this kid up, we're going to be missing him for the rest of our lives. And yet, that is the exact thing we've done to these two other people. Still, they had four more. More than enough.

1:30:23Griffin Newman:so pretty quickly uh i mean the the line you referenced a while back john where holly uh you know ed just starts sobbing the second she's holding the baby i think that's so brilliant because you're like both like yes she's somewhat cracked like you know like these people are crazy enough to be kidnapping a baby and like the intensity like her emotions are so in turmoil yeah and but then you're also like but she's right like all babies are beautiful and she loves this baby. It's fully sincere. It's what it feels like when you have a baby. Like this thing that you felt a little bit ambivalent about maybe or you were looking forward to but reasonably scared about to what the change is going to be and then you see it and you're like, I love it so much.

1:31:05David Sims:Who cries better in movies than Holly Hunter? Oh, totally. Good question. Basically.

1:31:11Griffin Newman:I mean, this is the same year as Broadcast News, right? Crying duo. It is. What is crazy? When she unplugs the phone and just sits there and

1:31:19David Sims:cries they start filming broadcast news before this has come out am i correct we did that episode so many years ago i don't remember but i mean obviously that is the case they're obviously both fox films right and they're similar time broadcast news was supposed to be deborah winger she gets pregnant raising arizona style anti-raising arizona anti-raising arizona uh and they need a last minute sub bin and i think fox was like the woman in this fucking coen brothers movie is unbelievable. Take a look at her. Right. And we talked about in that episode that the, I'm forgetting her name, but the real news producer who James L.

1:31:53David Sims:Brooks worked with to help develop the character said, I'll admit to you something really embarrassing. Sometimes I just break down crying. And he wrote that into the script. So building that into broadcast news so much is like pure serendipitous magic that like he had landed on that That's another one of our marital movies that we could just put on. Like everybody. The best. And I could easily go down that road, but look at David. Yeah. Right. Look at David. You already did a whole episode on that. He's about to start crying all the hunters.

1:32:26Griffin Newman:I know. Yeah, maybe I need to just schedule a 10 a.m. cry or whatever it is she does in broadcast. This podcast is too long.

1:32:38Griffin Newman:Pretty quickly High's former cellmates Gale and Evil Snoots So Gale is of course John Goodman And Evil is the great William Forsythe Did he ever do another Cohen's William Forsythe? No, he was left behind He was left off the train He's so great in this movie And I remember watching for him all the time In the 90s, William Forsythe is one of those guys He's just in like 8 movies a year In like little roles and like straight to video movies and shit. Like he has a long, busy career, but mostly doing like fun junk.

1:33:11David Sims:But you're right because he's standing next to John Goodman, who the Coens both immediately lock in on and are like, this is the love of our life. We have uncovered a natural element that we will use to power up the rest of our careers.

1:33:26Griffin Newman:I would say one of the great introductions to a character is how you meet these two.

1:33:33David Sims:Yeah. Well, you have the first...

1:33:35Griffin Newman:It's amazing.

1:33:35David Sims:You're saying in the opening prologue... Oh, I guess you kind of see them in prison.

1:33:37Griffin Newman:But I do think the introduction to basically every character in this movie is as good as your... You know what I mean? Yeah, true. They're so good at delivering a visual concept of a character to you where you're like, I think I get it.

1:33:48David Sims:And also, I will say, you're introduced to so many characters in that prologue, like M. Emmett Walsh and all the people in the prison cell and whatever.

1:33:55Griffin Newman:You're talking about their true entrants.

1:33:57David Sims:Who never repeat again. If you're seeing this movie in 87 or these unknown actors, you have no reason to believe that those guys are going to come back. Right. You might say their birth, because they are, this is a birth scene when they crawl out of that hole. Yeah. Out of the shit. Yeah. Yeah. Like, they're being born out of a hole, crying, screaming and crying. Covered in poop. It might be too. And Evel has to be, he's a breech birth. He has to be pulled out by his ankle.

1:34:24Griffin Newman:It might have been a little bit too, like, out of reality. But I would have loved if he pulled the map out and started trying to figure out which way to Albuquerque. Yeah. I didn't even think about that connection. I'm so obsessed with the birth canal metaphor that I didn't even think about it. It's like, what's up, doc?

1:34:40David Sims:Which way to Albuquerque? Another one of the funniest things ever. That every time it's map out of hole, which way to Albuquerque? He's always trying to get to Albuquerque for no apparent reason. It's just kind of like nearby big city, I guess, that's far enough away. He had a meth empire that he had to ask.

1:34:59Griffin Newman:He was trying to break bad. You know, when she's like, you bust out of jail and he's like we felt the institution no longer had anything to offer us i think it's so funny like they're very like they're interesting characters in this movie in a way and that they don't really matter to the plot that extremely i guess they sort of just represent high's recidivism right like his his high opportunity for they're like the equivalent

1:35:24David Sims:of his frat brothers who are like don't you want to crack open a six-pack right it's like right

1:35:29Griffin Newman:Right. She just got with this guy. Now they're trying to be responsible. Right. And the guys from the past are returning to be silly. Also both hyperverbal in the same. Yeah. I mean, I guess all the characters are. But yeah, I think there was somewhere that I read that they they had this idea that these characters read a lot of magazines. That's good. That they picked up a lot of. Right. They've been in prison. Yeah. Like, yeah. Just like. Yeah. Like the whole like this is our family unit. Sure. There's some like magazine-y catchphrases of the day that were coming through there.

1:35:59David Sims:I think they're like, they're finding something interesting in the tension between the sort of like yokelism that is the primary language with which these types of people are expressed in movies. Usually as like inessential punchline characters. Right. Right. And also the grand tradition of this like incredible mastery of language, southern literary sort of giants. Yeah. Right. Like the most profoundly emotional, thoughtful sort of inner life work and being like, why are these two things so apart when we're saying they're both from the same region? Right. And we're compartmentalizing them in our culture.

1:36:37David Sims:Yeah. Yeah. But the magazine thing is a really good take. Like people end up in prison. What are they going to fucking do? lose their mind get ripped and read yeah absolutely so uh i haven't thought about

1:36:50Griffin Newman:these two guys that is escaping me or no it's right so like right they're the trashy like why don't we go knock over some 7-elevens again and then you have um sam mcmurray and francis mcdormand just as sort of repellent in a way as the like bougie like oh no have babies like enter the middle class, like be like us. Swinger couple, make racist jokes. Excuse me, Polish people are not a race, they are a nationality I guess. My race. Sam McMurray bringing a lot of talking about cartoons a physical goofy energy. Sam McMurray is the best. We cannot ever right? Like I mean like he's the greatest. Did he ever do another Coens?

1:37:35Griffin Newman:He did Adam's family values. Yeah. So Sonnenfeld worked with him again. Yeah. I don't think that he did. I was looking that up. Yeah, he never did. He, obviously a huge TV guy like did a zillion TV things. But he's lots of movies.

1:37:48David Sims:Neil's dad on Freaks and Geeks. He's so fucking good. Oh God, I forgot about that. That arc. I don't know if he's talked about this publicly or other people have talked about this publicly. Yes. But he was part of the cast of the Tracy Ullman show. Yes, for like 60 episodes,

1:38:04Griffin Newman:like a whole thing.

1:38:04David Sims:Most of those main cast members got thrown in to do voices on The Simpsons and he didn't get a family member. and he has a couple guest appearances in the first season, but I think it has always kind of rankled him that he was like an inch away from The Simpsons. He was left behind by both the Coens and The Simpsons. Yeah. That's rough. Yeah.

1:38:24Griffin Newman:That is interesting.

1:38:25David Sims:Because that cast otherwise has Kavner, it has Castellaneta, Azaria they find from the outside because the original guy they hired was an asshole. Who's the original guy? I always forget his name. Harry Shearer. Mark Maron talks about him. He was a stand-up comedian who then primarily became a voice actor but was so bitter about it. And he was like on G.I. Joe in a lot of big children's shows. And he was originally Burns, Moe, like all of those. I guess some of the characters end up being Shira, some of them end up being Azaria. Yeah. But Azaria talks about this. When they hired him, it was in a recasting.

1:38:58David Sims:And he went, what was the other guy doing wrong? And they said, you know what? His performance was actually great. He was just such an asshole that we couldn't imagine continuing to work with him. And Azaria's like, that's the greatest fucking lesson in show business I ever learned. I thought it was because the other guy couldn't do an Indian accent. Well, that was also the big part of it. Can I just say something that I discovered though? What's that? Well, so I was thinking about this dude. What's his name? Sam McMurray? Yeah. Sam McMurray. So they're the, like Cage is Woody Woodpecker. Yeah.

1:39:28And a little bit Wile E. Coyote. Obviously set in the American Southwest. So it's got Roadrunner vibes. Right. Nathan Arizona is Yosemite Sam. Yosemite Sam. This guy feels like goofy to me. Sure. Carter Burwell did the score for a goofy movie. Wow.

1:39:43David Sims:That score is so fucking good. It's another score that you can like... Do you know this score? I only know because I was listening to Carter Burwell joints. On Spotify. Yeah, and all of a sudden it popped up. I'm like, wow.

1:39:55Griffin Newman:It is also a score where... Suddenly like your phone was a little goofy. It got a little goofy.

1:40:00David Sims:It is a score where if you played it for someone without telling them what movie it was, they would never guess it was a goofy movie. If you extract that score from the movie it's in, it sounds like just a fucking classic Carter Burwell score. I have a great Super Yaki shirt that is music by Carter Burwell, his opening credit in the Goofy Movie font, which is just so funny to see.

1:40:21Griffin Newman:You know what else is a Goofy Movie?

1:40:23David Sims:Raising Arizona. There you go. Bringing it back around. Now, on to the second half of Act One. I like that so much of their justification of why they so desperately want to have a child. I'm going to fucking paraphrase this and misquote it, but the notion that, like, we were so happy in love that once we landed on the idea of having a child, depriving them even one potential day of the joy we were experiencing felt cruel, right? That there was a sense of, like, they have found such comfort in each other that they created a world that they felt like we need to bring someone else into this, which then hurts them so much when they can't.

1:41:03Yeah.

1:41:04David Sims:Yeah. but it's human it's coming from like a true place of like we want to create a zone of love that can extend it's beautiful and it's human and it's not arch and it's not mannered and it's not stylized at all yeah uh so what happens in the movie uh they kidnap they have the baby Nathan Jr yeah they kidnap and then and then then the the cellmates show up and they're the jailbirds show up yeah um I love something that stuck in my mind forever ever John Goodman using the hand soap in the bathroom as sort of like pomade to fix his hair. That's pomade. Really? Yeah. It's just so white and foamy that I always think he's putting hand soap in there as well.

1:41:47David Sims:It is. It's also public pomade which is gnarly. And a fucking gas station bathroom. It's the third most famous men's hair pomade in the Coen Brothers universe. Well, Dapper Dan number one.

1:42:01Griffin Newman:After Dapper Dan and Fop. Fop. Yeah. I don't want Fop. God damn it. I met the guy who designed the cans for Fop and Dapper Dan and indeed all of those products. Wow. I profiled him for the New York Times Magazine. Not for that reason. Yeah. His name is Ted Hay. And on cocktail bulletin boards in the early 2000s, he was known as Dr. Cocktail. And his hobby was, he's a production designer for films, but his hobby was going into, was recreating pre-prohibition cocktails. ideally with pre-prohibition liquor that he would source by going into the attics of old liquor stores in Chicago and finding stuff that was 100 years old.

1:42:41Cool. Doesn't go bad. That fucking rules. H-A-I-G-H.

1:42:45David Sims:We've been close friends to nearing a decade now. I dare say. I cannot believe I've never thought to ask you, were you on high-end cocktail message boards in the early 2000s? I was not. And how did you know this? because I befriended and was briefly the literary agent to Dale DeGroff, who was the bartender, the famous bartender at the Rainbow Room. Yep.

1:43:10Griffin Newman:Who really... I'm going to do a picture of him quick from any, like, magazine he's probably ever been, like, featured in. David has perfectly affected the pose of a man shaking a drink. Shaking a drink. Anyway, Dale DeGroff was part of the big cocktail renaissance of the early 2000s. The craft cocktails. Yeah. And then, uh, and in fact, his book that I represented, The Craft of the Cocktail, still in well, still available in hardcover. No paperback? Probably there's a paperback out there. I'll search. But he put me on to Ted Hay and David Wondrich, another big cocktail historian. David Wondrich has some awesome books about the history of cocktails.

1:43:45David Wondrich is a cool dude and he's a former punk rocker. Oh really? Yeah. Oh shit. Big time punk rocker. So cool.

1:43:53Griffin Newman:But Imbibe and Punch are two of his books that are excellent. Highly recommend. I don't know that Ted ever did a book, but you can read my profile in the New York Times magazine. I don't think I saw a fancy cocktail chat hitting the Raising Arizona episode. They don't really have a lot. I just had to talk about how excited I was when I learned that he designed the fop and dapper Dan cans. I don't know. I don't want fop. God damn it. Speaking of doctors, Dr. Spock, we got to talk about it. That's so funny that that's the instruction manual. Yeah, that is a good joke. Yes. Yeah. My parents had that book.

1:44:25Griffin Newman:That book brings me back. to the, you know...

1:44:29David Sims:Our baby years. Childhood, exactly. Our own personal baby years.

1:44:33Griffin Newman:Is that still a tome? No. Or has a lot of this stuff moved on? He's basically been completely discredited

1:44:38David Sims:and put on the track?

1:44:38Griffin Newman:No, I wouldn't say that's true. It's more just like... It's just outmoded? Yeah, a lot of his stuff is still... He's not a bad... He's not bad. Like, Dr. Spock is good. Like, his ideas are largely good. He was... Well, he just wanted people

1:44:51David Sims:to live long and prosper.

1:44:53Griffin Newman:You know, he was... Politically, he was on the left and he was on the right side of things and stuff. I'm sorry. Was he on the left or the right side of things? You teed me up there. I know you're trying to get your point out. All I can say about Dr. Spock is I'm glad he's dead. Look, I have three points of personal connection. When did he die? 1998. So he saw Raising Arizona. I wonder if he thought it was funny to have his book in there. I hope he got a big fat check out of it. Yeah. That's a very, very funny running gag. I don't think anyone involved with this movie got a big fat check, just to be clear.

1:45:29Griffin Newman:I think the checks were fairly slanted. What if Benjamin Spock, Dr. Benjamin Spock? Six million dollar budget, five to Ben Spock. Yeah, what if it was that? All right, so I have three points of personal connection that I must raise before the podcast ends. And the podcast must end.

1:45:41David Sims:Two hours from now. This episode, not the whole. Yeah. One, regarding Dr. Spock, my wife was a whole human being in her own right. Her aunt was his assistant for years. Wow. And it is understood within the family that she was also his mistress. Sorry, Spock family. I'm dropping some bombs. Who knows? This could be the Fletcher family mythology. Yeah. Ann Winter was her name. Ann Winter. Yeah. Another piece of personal connection. Yeah. I met Carter Burwell at the TED conference. That's all. Starstruck. Did he yodel at you? No, he was a very sweet, down-to-earth dude. actually came to David Reese and I years ago worked on a thing for HBO that never went and he came to the edit to look at it.

1:46:28David Sims:He is able to obviously this score is not an example of this but I think in some of his work he's able to tap into a feeling a musical feeling that feels like it is touching such an intense darkness that I always wonder like is he one of these guys who is just like and he seems very chill in life. He does but he seems like to me. What? What? A little goofy. It's a little goofy. Sorry. Sorry, David. I had to. But you know what I'm saying. I'm like, I could listen to some of his scores and be like, is this man the Edgar Allen Poe of film composers? Oh, because he's so dark and he was in love with his 14-year-old cousin?

1:47:04David Sims:Well, I would not.

1:47:05Griffin Newman:I also don't get the Edgar Allen Poe thing.

1:47:07David Sims:I think he is able to convey a darkness in music that I cannot think of another composer who is able to hit that consistently where I'm like, is this a man who is spending all of his time wallowing in the deepest thoughts imaginable? And he does not seem to be that way. Not in the very brief time. The third point of personal connection, and I will not tell the story until we're ready to end. Okay. Not just because I want to keep moving. Pin out. Is that I auditioned for Burn After Reading. Oh, interesting. For what role? I'll tell you later. Pin. Okay. So what else happens in the movie? Lack of conventional jokes, but Forsyth and Goodman showing up does have more of a kind of classic comedy vibe of them having to cover for their lives.

1:47:48David Sims:Silly conflict here. It's a welcome home sign for a baby, which is funny. Right. So they have to explain that the baby was visiting the grandparents, even though both the grandparents are dead and they're in different locations.

1:47:59Griffin Newman:But it's also the conflict of High being tempted back to criminal life. Yes. This is where he has the nightmare about Leonard Smalls where we're sort of, I feel, really introducing this concept of like High is sort of connected to, you know, he has the sight in a strange sort of a way. In a way the movie doesn't have to

1:48:19David Sims:think about very hard. Well, here's the thing the Coen's have said in interviews. That the way they conceived of Leonard Smalls was not what is the ultimate villain that could exist in this universe, but what is the ultimate villain that would exist in H.I.'s imagination. if he had to fear someone coming and retrieving the baby what is the worst thing he would think of right and it is almost a cartoon version of an evil biker and it comes to him in his sleep yeah and he looks like a monster he looks like one of those Looney Tunes monsters he does yeah there's a quote I want to read from him from Tex Randall Tex Cobb yes he was on David Letterman 1987 must have been for the promote the release of this movie perhaps I don't know and uh letterman says how does your current job compare to your old job and he said in the last job i had if you didn't do it just exactly right you got hit in the mouth in this kind of job the worst thing that can happen i mean if everything in the whole world goes wrong take two nice it's really good it's really something to think about it's really funny i think he is magnificent well in the movie he's so perfect it's crazy his voice and manner his little squinty face the squinty face, the high-pitched voice.

1:49:34Griffin Newman:The stained teeth. The stained teeth, but it's like, you know, it is absurd that this monster has his voice like this. Like, it's totally like a Looney Tunes gag that nose that has been so mashed into his face that his breathing is wrong. The fact that his name is Leonard Smalls, his nose is somehow two-dimensional. Lenny to his friends, but he doesn't have any friends. But he doesn't have any friends, right. Yeah. He wears the shit out of a grenade. Although it's ultimately he's undoing. Until the grenade wears the shit out of him. That's true. Very well said. He's got some little booties. What else?

1:50:10Griffin Newman:I like the, you know. Well, he was trafficked as a child. Mama didn't love me is the tattoo, right? Yeah. He's got the sort of different sized guns. Yes. Which I think is very cool.

1:50:21David Sims:But that's what's smart about. And he's got weird fur on his boots. What's smart about the character is that the movie says, like, this is the end result. of a child being taken out of its nature. Right. Right? Like, in a very silly, heightened way. And, you know, the connection between the Woody Woodpecker tattoos to jump ahead in the final confrontation, it's like a fighting Darth Vader in the tree moment in Empire. You know, Yoda's and shit. We're not so different. Talking about Yoda's and shit here. Yoda's and shit. We're not so different, you and I. It's like, so he peels back, or, you know, they're in this big, very brutal fight.

1:50:58David Sims:Mm-hmm. And Nicolas Cage peels back a layer of fur-covered leather or whatever. Sees he's got the Woody Woodpecker. And that connection has always, and I think to the movie's credit, remained a little bit ambiguous. It's not a very on-the-nose indication of sameness. It invites you to wonder how they're the same, how they're linked, what it is. Now, it is Woody Woodpecker, but to be clear, that is a off-brand appropriation of Woody Woodpecker for a muffler company from the 60s called Thrush Muffler. It's kind of the equivalent of Calvin pissing on shit. Exactly. Yeah. And it was a staple of like muscle car iconography in the 60s and 70s.

1:51:47David Sims:Which then often became like biker gang iconography. And unfortunately, Woody Woodpecker, not that particular design, but in general, in prison, as a tattoo, is a white supremacist tattoo. Oh, boy.

1:51:58Griffin Newman:Those guys got their paws on Woody? Yeah. Is Woody Woodpecker funny? It's a really good question. Because I never loved him. I definitely know who he is, and I know the noise he makes. I don't ever remember. So he's lodged in my brain. Woody Woodpecker would make the run on afternoon cartoons on WLVI Channel 56 in Boston. And I saw a lot of it, but I never remember ha-ha-ha-ha-ing at it.

1:52:22David Sims:I remember having a distinct sort of fondness for, oh, a Woody's coming on, right? Different. I'm watching these hours-long animation blocks, and I'd be excited to see, like, oh, it's a chilly willy, you know? Yeah. Like, Woody was not one I was dreading when a Woody Woodpecker cartoon came up with a rotation. And yet, I watch Looney Tunes today. I laugh, I chuckle, I guffaw. Yeah. I cannot imagine Woody Woodpecker doing anything that would make me laugh. He's an imitation. I mean, a purposeful and considered imitation. And even if he was, and Mel Blanc, or Blanc, or I don't know what he says, but his name, right?

1:52:58Yeah.

1:52:58Griffin Newman:I don't know. He's dead now, and I'm glad of it. John? Wait a second. Everyone's getting bodied here. All these 20th century icons. Just acknowledging that we all are mortal. We don't live forever, and I'm glad.

1:53:10David Sims:You're glad that people are dead rather than being stuck on this myrtle coil long past their duty.

1:53:16Griffin Newman:Do you think Mel Blanc had to die so that Mel B from the Spice Girls could emerge? Yeah, there could only be one. Right. I forgot they were both Highlanders. Yeah, good point. But Woody Woodpecker was also ran an imitation. Yes. Sorry, the estate of Walter Lansing. If Yoda told you to go into a cave of evil, would you do it? Yeah, I'd do anything Yoda told me then. Because that might be when I'm peacing out. Really? He doesn't have the X-Wing out yet. Yeah. Now, X-Files, Tex Cobb's in one of those. Here's the difference. I would...

1:53:48David Sims:My brain, no worky, as the millennials say. You've been sick for 17 years, it seems like. You've had the endless cold. When I watch Empire Strikes Back, my thought is always, I don't know if I leave Dagobah.

1:54:02Griffin Newman:Right, actually, kind of, sort of a chill vibe here.

1:54:04David Sims:I think Yoda's kind of got it figured out, and I know it looks like I got to go save my friends, and part of me is just sort of like, I don't know if anything you can do at this point is going to make a difference. Yoda makes a good point. Well, look, I know that we like talking about Yoda's and shit. Yeah, we do. We should not because poor David. I don't like talking about Yoda. Are you kidding me? You want to throw the rest of this movie away and just talk about Yoda's and shit? No, no, no. Come on. Sure. What's up with Yoda? I'll tell you something about Yoda. He died pretty suddenly in Return of the Jedi, right, David?

1:54:32Yeah, that was the point I made.

1:54:33Griffin Newman:You're taking my points. Yeah, but that was before we were on mic. Oh, you want me to make it? Okay, we're making it on mic. all the entire fucking saga. Why is he choosing that moment to tap out? And then like in Jedi, Luke's like, hey Yoda, what's up? It's been like a year max since I last saw you. Yoda's like, truly seconds from death. He's just like, Luke, I'm walking in that bed and let me tell you, I ain't getting out of it, okay? Luke's like, oh, I have a bunch of questions for you. He's like, yeah, I think Leia's your sister or something. Check in with the Obi-Wan ghost. I am out of here.

1:55:01David Sims:He's got a Marion Coutillard, Dark Knight Rises death.

1:55:04Griffin Newman:It is actually hysterical that in Jedi, Yoda can't even give Luke a lot of the exposition. And fucking ghost Obi-Wan then sits on a log and is like, FYI, yes, we knew Vader was your dad. Yes, Lady is your sister. Yoda didn't cover any of this?

1:55:17David Sims:Are you fucking kidding me? The guy couldn't have held on for 10 more minutes?

1:55:20Griffin Newman:And Luke's like, why didn't you tell me about the Vader thing? He's like, look, from a certain point of view. And Luke's like, just say George hadn't figured it out yet. Come on, just admit it. Even though I was... He just is like, I can't believe I'm even in this one. I died two movies ago. Even though I was only 12 years old, maybe, when that movie came out, and I and I think John Wolfe convinced our teachers to let the whole class skip school. Oh, that's like to go see it. To go see it as a field trip. And Brooks Ames was not allowed to come with us. Like his parents wouldn't. Because his parents said no.

1:55:51We're Sith. Even though I was young, in that moment when Yoda died, I thought to myself two things. One, that's how it is when a person gets old. If you're caretaking for an elder parent, they'll take a sudden turn for the worse. And the other thing I thought at the time was, I'm glad he's dead.

1:56:10David Sims:I think the smallest thing is, right, like there is this fear of what feels like this incomprehensible, otherworldly, if not evil, at least scariness, right? Like a man who exists just to be a monster. And yet his motivating force is I was taken away by my parents and look at me now and I have to stop it from happening, right? Right. Which more than him being able to solve the problem himself, I think it kind of scares H.I. and Ed enough, combined with seeing the actual sorrow of the Arizonas at the child being missing of like, if we love this kid, we actually can't do this to him. Right. This is like creating a problem that's going to hang over him for the rest of his life, whether he knows it or not.

1:56:53David Sims:But the fact. And then the second part of it is I think seeing the tattoo is less signaling that they're part of the same white supremacist group and more just like, oh, right. This guy was a person at some point. It's not that we're the same.

1:57:07Griffin Newman:There's emotion that's been kind of calcified or like, you know, scarred over with this guy. Yeah. Like it is the raw. It is his raw flesh. The last thing that High says to him is sorry. Like, Hai has to destroy him because he's a villain, an obstacle. But Hai doesn't feel great about blowing him up. Right. But there's also ambiguity about what the apology is for. Like, it is that. Sure. But what else is he sorry for? And I love this ambiguity. Like, this is what I was thinking about before with regard to trying to figure out what is the emotional core of the Coens that they're bringing to this.

1:57:43It doesn't matter. Sure. Ben, I studied literary theory at Yale University, a four-year accredited college in Southern Connecticut. And the first thing we were taught is the author is dead. Authorial intention does not matter. What is left behind the text often reflects things that the author doesn't even think about on a conscious level. So even if they do have an intention and state it, that does not mean that they themselves, if they are alive, they're reliable narrators necessarily about their own work. and sometimes they're not allowed, they can't speak for their intention because they are dead.

1:58:19And you know what? I'm glad. But that said,

1:58:25the effort to try to humanize or find an emotional core for what the Coens are going through is, I think, ultimately a dead end for this reason. And I love the fact that they will put in these things that feel very meaningful, and yet they have no precise explanation.

1:58:47David Sims:Well, The Hat and Miller's Crossing is probably the ultimate one. We'll talk about it next week. Sure. And we'll get to Serious Man, which embraced the mystery as them yelling that at the audience, right? At a point in time where I think audiences had finally come to understand how to build a relationship to their movies and not bang their head against a wall. But I also, I think a lot about, I believe it was on an episode of WTF where Patton Oswalt was on, and the two of them were talking on how much they both love the Coen brothers. And Marin says something to the effect of like, you know about like movies and shit, right?

1:59:16David Sims:Why are the Coen brothers so good? Explain to me why I think about their movies all the time. Honestly, that's why he's a master interviewer. I agree. And Oswald said something that I think about a lot in relation to their work, where I will probably paraphrase this in a way that is much worse than the way he put it, but something to the effect of, the thing about the Coen brothers is they're not interested in giving you answers. They just kind of casually open doors and let you decide whether or not you want to walk through them yourselves. Right. And there is that feeling of I know there is something behind this door.

1:59:50David Sims:And now the door has been opened, but they're not guiding you through it. And they're not telling you you need to walk through that door. Exactly. And that feeling of like I might not have the answers, but I know there is an answer here. Right. And part of the joy is knowing that you're never going to land on it definitively, but that you can wonder about what's behind that door forever. I mean, you know, so much of, you know, movie quote unquote fandom on the Internet these days is breaking it down and figuring it out. Yep. And getting to a final answer. And they don't design movies like puzzles of like we're giving you the clues and if you put them together right, you will have everything.

2:00:26They're not like Mr.

2:00:27David Sims:Policeman. I gave you all the clues. They're not snowmen. They're not snowmen. And I think, you know, this movie has less of it than some of their later films. I want to be clear that I thought that was funny. That was very funny. Thank you very much. You might have heard on the audio David laughing uproariously at that joke. Unless Ben chose to cut it out for some reason. Sick guy. Weird. But I think like. You know what? I love the ambiguity, you know? Just let it. Like did David find it funny or not? It's for you to interpret. It's hard to think of another like broad studio comedy of the 1980s that would allow you to be like.

2:01:05David Sims:And I don't know if I'll ever have an answer for that. And I find that interesting. Yeah. No, obviously. In a way that doesn't feel like a plot hole. Right. It's just fascinating that even in their movie that's like, let's just try to make something that's fun. It still starts to like scratch at these corners of mystery. Absolutely. Yeah.

2:01:22Griffin Newman:Okay. So I think we kind of left off discussing somewhat the couple, Glenn and Dot, stop by, meet the new baby.

2:01:31David Sims:I need to award five million comedy points to their son who just writes the word fart on the inside of their wall. that hits so hard. It is incredible. And then the callback to fart later is equally genius.

2:01:45Griffin Newman:And I like how they're signaling just like the chaos of this family and how they're not really disciplining the children at all. They're gently signaling that the family is chaos. Yeah, they're not doing well. The kids are all bandaged and hitting everybody with sticks. But this basically leads directly... Like when they cut to that shot and they're just like hitting the fucking car. The girl's got the eye patch.

2:02:07David Sims:this leads like directly into the the Huggies heist yes

2:02:14Griffin Newman:tension is building they stop at a convenience store I need some Huggies I'll take these Huggies and whatever cash you have

2:02:25David Sims:you and I agree David that the Coen brothers are underrated as being some of the best action filmmakers on the planet because it's not their primary mode but this movie

2:02:32Griffin Newman:yes absolutely I mean like it is hard I don't really know how they did this camera stuff. I've watched special features where they sort of explain it.

2:02:43David Sims:And some of its evolution of Raimi cam shit. The way it rockets around.

2:02:46Griffin Newman:Yes.

2:02:46David Sims:It's so cool.

2:02:48Griffin Newman:Yes. But yes, Hai knocks over a convenience store. He can't help it. He loves to knock over a convenience store.

2:02:53David Sims:I think a lot of its undercranking combined with like incredibly meticulously rehearsed and practiced runs on complicated dolly tracks and rigs and such. It was the adolescence of its day. I couldn't think of a better way to put it. I will never watch that shit. I will never watch it. One billion years. You haven't seen it? No. Oh, you have to see it. Do I? I definitely don't. Oh, it's magnificent. I've been too busy re-watching Disney's bonkers from the beginning, so that's going to take up the next four months of my life. It is a...

2:03:24Griffin Newman:Are you okay? If you are not seeing it because of one of two reasons. One, that it is emotionally devastating. That's true.

2:03:33David Sims:Yeah. And two, that the gimmick of shooting each episode is a single one shot. Yeah. Is distracting and mannered. I don't believe that. I believe it is well executed yet. I'm just like, I simply don't want to watch that. Mostly because of point one. I would say that both of those things are true and yet you forget about them. Sure. In a way that is astonishing. Both the technique that it was filmed and the fact that it is, I mean, you feel the emotional gut punch, but you are on a journey. It's great. Just to resolve this question, David, my girlfriend asked me, are there cartoon characters that you grew up having like early formative crushes on?

2:04:12David Sims:And I was like, yeah, I feel like the obvious ones, you know, the generationally Spinelli and recess and whatever. And I said, what about you? And she went bonkers. And I went, well, that's very damning for me. It feels like there's a real straight line to you being activated by bonkers as a child and dating me now. That's absolutely true. And then I was like, I think we need to watch bonkers so I can solve this. 61 episodes and four special compilations. I think we're 10 in. I feel profoundly older than you. I don't, this is a generational thing. I don't even know what Bunkers is. Bunkers was like a ripoff Roger Rabbit cartoon that clearly they deny it had been developed as the Roger Rabbit animated series and then realized we're going to have Zemeckis and Spielberg baked into these contracts and too much approval.

2:04:54David Sims:So it becomes about a different silly cartoon animal who is partners with a gruff, fat, real world style policeman who solved cases in, Toontown.

2:05:04Griffin Newman:Oh, alright. What's next in Raising Arizona?

2:05:07David Sims:What else do we need to talk about? Huggies! Heist. Which is just like a fucking 10-12 minute action sequence. Oh, and the payoff when he gives her, he's giving her those directions while they're having the monologue. You have a man for a husband. You're not a real man. All that subtext about what it means to be grown up and then you realize that he's giving directions to the Huggies. To pick them up just casually while speeding. In motion. The dogs are so good. I do not have any children you gentlemen both do I do feel like and tell me if my read on this is wrong this is sort of metaphorically them being like you become a parent and then suddenly everything in your life feels like this all the time the pressure of fuck how do we get diapers

2:05:51Griffin Newman:everything is really hard and high intensity you feel like you're being chased by a pack of dogs all the time and there's also that big dog and then there's that little dog, which I kind of felt was like a reference to that Looney Tune where the bulldog and the one that jumps on Tom's with, hey, Rex, or whatever. You know those guys I'm talking about?

2:06:10David Sims:Then there's also two stupid dogs, which was kind of a ripoff of that, Bunker style, which was another 90s. Okay, so we're getting out of this. All right, so what's next? I thought, but here, I just thought John Goodman and William Forsyth were a riff on the big dog and the little dog. No, I agree with you. That's all.

2:06:23Griffin Newman:Okay, so next is his former boss, the foreman, shows up with his broken nose and his neck in a brace, and he's now threatening because he's figured out.

2:06:34David Sims:He's put it together.

2:06:35Griffin Newman:Yeah, and they want the baby.

2:06:37David Sims:Right, which Goodman and Forsythe are also putting together. Because they're hearing it. Everyone around them now realizes they've done something wrong and I can benefit from it. You know what's up, Doc? The gig. The gig is up. And no one knows how to get to Albuquerque. No one knows. The place of salvation. Everything's been found out. Very fun fight between Goodman and Cage

2:06:58Griffin Newman:in the house. Oh, yeah. And just the spinning... And Goodman. And it's Three Stooges. Camera work. Right. Goodman's such a big beefer and Cage is this weird string bean guy with just such unpredictable energy.

2:07:12David Sims:The other thing is that this is starting to severely strain their relationship. Yeah. The guilt of this is... Which is also parenting.

2:07:22Griffin Newman:I get what you're saying. Right. It's about this strain of parenting and what it does to people. of course, to a new relationship or whatever. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

2:07:33David Sims:But also within this movie, there's the sort of ends justify the mean situation of this will make us so happy that maybe we have to do something wrong in order to give us the future that we want. And by doing it the wrong way, it like eats at their relationship. Yeah. It starts to turn them against each other. Yeah. The guilt, I think, is really kind of getting to them. Right. And this fear of are we going to fuck up this? kid. Right. Yeah. So they make up with the baby. Yeah. Goodman and Forsyth steal the baby.

2:08:07Griffin Newman:Steal the baby. Instantly fall in love. They love him so much. He is very charming. They become immediate surrogate parents. Yeah. That's when he's got to go buy the Huggies from the old timer. It's kind of a magical baby. How do you put them on? And he said, well, they have these tape heads and it's fairly explanatory. So good. That's also the balloon these balloons blow up into funny shapes. And then they do the whole like countdown thing and I'll be back in five minutes. Yes. I love that recurring. They go rob the bank.

2:08:40David Sims:They forget that they've left the baby carrier on top of the car. Huge reaction in the theater when they put that. That was such a beautiful cinematic sleight of hand. It just gets you. Just the very image of the baby in the seat. Yes. And there's by making the baby a little precocious, the sort of like hiding the face kind of thing. Yeah. It does I think it buffers the actual like discomfort sense of danger yeah you know you're like I'm accepting that you're using the baby in a manipulative way that are fun movie stakes while also being like this baby could fucking baby's day out if it wanted to it's never really gonna get hurt this baby is smarter than anyone in a way exactly and when Goodman and Forsyth realize they left the baby on top of the car they pop out their birthing screams again so good which is such a like I remember well I don't remember what I remember, but it's such a clue to the movie.

2:09:31Like, we were dealing with very primal emotions here. Yes. Like, these are primal screams that these guys are embodying.

2:09:37David Sims:And Edwina is, like, sobbing in the car while, you know, H.I. has just kind of gone numb as they're trying to chase after both the baby and the Jollyard buddies.

2:09:50Griffin Newman:The same time Smalls appears, presents himself to, you know, Arizona. American Arizona. who is basically like not interested. And he's like, fine, I'll just do it anyway. I'll just steal the baby. And I guess sell the baby. I guess that's his plan. Like just not even claim the reward. Well, he's saying, I'll do it. I'll do it for what was the reward? $20 ,000? $50 ,000. Yeah, but he demands$50 ,000. Right, it's$25 ,000 and he demands more. He demands more because that's what the market will bear because he knows because he was trafficked as a child or whatever. And I guess he's got the receipts.

2:10:24David Sims:But you also get to what is kind of the line of the movie for me, which is if I'm as bad as you, what good are we to each other?

2:10:30Griffin Newman:Right, right, right.

2:10:31David Sims:That it's really starting...

2:10:32Griffin Newman:Real Coen brothers logic too.

2:10:33David Sims:To weigh down on her that she feels like they're both activating something bad in each other that has led to this whole situation. And disregard our love. Clearly this doesn't work. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, then there's a fight and then there's the end.

2:10:51Griffin Newman:Yeah, I mean... Well, there's the die pack exploding. another primal scream

2:10:57David Sims:yes

2:10:59Griffin Newman:they do this sort of armed robbery with the baby yes I mean there's so much fun shit and it's all so energizing and wonderful but again to me it's the last 15 minutes that make the movie make sense because you're watching this movie kind of being like how can this end appropriately

2:11:21David Sims:which I love a movie that lays out a deck of cards where you're like, there is no way for you to get out of this okay. Right.

2:11:30Griffin Newman:Because like, you're like, yes, possibly they're just going to give the baby back. But isn't that just kind of like, doesn't that feel a little cheap or a little like a bit of a bummer or whatever? You know, like, okay, can we give the baby back? Yeah, no worries. Just to be

2:11:46David Sims:clear. What was the whole movie? The double layer of, I don't know how the characters are going to untangle the situation and I don't know how the filmmakers are going to let that untangle feel like a satisfying conclusion to whatever I've been watching. I mean, one thing that Looney Tunes cartoons could do, or they were never tasked with sticking the landing to a two-hour long feature film. They don't have to resolve any sense of an emotional narrative. Yeah, you just fall, like the coyote falls off the cliff for the third time. Yeah, and then Bugs Bunny looks at the camera and says, fuck that guy, right?

2:12:20That's the famous closing catchphrase of Looney Tunes, right? Yeah, fuck that guy, right? Fuck that guy

2:12:31Griffin Newman:The maturity Defeating Leonard For high Speaking about Difficulty of sticking the landing To a three hour long feature

2:12:45David Yes Red alert

2:12:48David Sims:Uh oh There's been an outbreak Biohazard of a new Patreon series. It's contagious. Oh, that's so true. It's been cooked up in the lab for your pleasure. From the fine folks at the Umbrella Corporation, we are covering Resident Evil. The film franchise. Yes.

2:13:10Griffin Newman:We've got the first franchise. Six movies. Yes. That beautiful second franchise. How many? Six? Seven? It's got the one movie. Oh, it's got the one. We'll be covering all of them on Patreon, doing commentaries. on, yes, the Resident Evil, Apocalypse, Extinction, Afterlife, Retribution, the final chapter. Welcome to Raccoon City.

2:13:30David Sims:This is an exciting time. Zach Kregor, friend of the podcast, has a new Resident Evil coming out. We thought this was a good opportunity to revisit the history of Resident Evil movies.

2:13:39Griffin Newman:Why not? Why not? Why can't we? Why can't we? We can. Check in for that August 1st, and it's going to be running all the way through November 1st.

2:13:49David Sims:Followed by your March Madness winner, Dr. Dracula Dr. Acula himself That's so fun So that's great That's great Thank you Thank you so much

2:14:04Griffin Newman:Propel Fitness Water With Gatorade electrolytes Zero sugar And vitamins Propel hydrates better than water To help you get the most out of your workout And get back to your best self What propels you? Propel with Gatorade electrolytes it's hard to bring it home it is yeah feels like some sort of like siege perilous that high passes through successfully yeah and in the sort of magic realism magical thinking of this movie because obviously what happens just to very quickly summarize is they return the baby uh nathan arizona is like it's all good i understand that you did this out of love even though you're stupid yeah and then high says that he had a dream of first of well nathan arizona to seize that they still have love even though they have given up on their own love you guys shouldn't give up on each other either right and hide dreams first of just watching nathan jr's life you know from afar right but then also dreams of being greeted by his own grandchildren yeah in a sequence that makes me uh water comes out of my eyes when i'm like what is this feeling and arizona has also said to them like he plays this so fucking well in the arcs of it of him

2:15:15David Sims:being like, who are you? We brought the baby back. Don't ask questions. Can we say goodbye? He from behind. He's not even looking at their faces, sees the emotion in their body language, the relationship to each other, where he's like, you're the ones who took him. And he's not even angry, even though they had framed it as we saved the baby from Smalls originally, where he's just like something profound emotional has happened here. And I'm just grateful that you came around to doing the right thing. and then he is so quickly kind of bereft at the idea that they're about to torpedo the relationship.

2:15:49David Sims:Right. Where he's like, whatever's happened here is a sign of something honest. Yeah. And they're sort of like, her infertility has driven us crazy. We don't understand how we have a future for this relationship. One of the things about this movie, that a lot of stylized, mannered movies by different directors that came afterward that were primarily preoccupied with men's ambiguity about growing up, this movie is really about a woman genuinely wanting to be a mother. Yeah. In a very sincere way. And it's a stark difference from some of the meta, sort of crimey, like, wackadoo movies that would come out in the 90s in its wake to a degree.

2:16:29David Sims:But Nathan says to them, like, you gotta just keep trying, which is what my wife and I did. Right. Despite this character, this actor only being 37 years old, he reads like a fucking 70-year-old man, right? Yeah, right. And so him saying, like, we kept trying and you hope that medical science catches up to you and it caught up to us with a vengeance, which gives H.I. the ability to dream of like one way or another, we're going to have a family. Yeah. There is a way to make this happen. Yeah. You know? Yes.

2:16:56Griffin Newman:Yeah. And I do feel like the magical thinking of this movie is like something has happened in defeating Leonard and saving this baby and making it like that. Maybe things can be different for them.

2:17:08David Sims:It's like vanquishing the dragon and returning back to your village.

2:17:12Griffin Newman:Yeah. It's really funny that Gail and Evel return to prison through the hole that they dug out. That's so cute. They gotta go back to it. But that's in his mind. But I believe that it happened. Same. They weren't ready to be born. Glenn gets arrested for being an asshole to Polish people. An excellent bit of comeuppance for him.

2:17:34David Sims:Sergeant Kowalski. Yes. Sergeant Kowalski. And I just, I like this idea it gets at that, like, in some way, this experience that could not be literally processed by a baby will have some lasting effect on Nathan Jr. that sets him apart from his brothers and sisters. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it's a valuable lesson for the baby. And I wasn't a parent when I saw it. I've seen it many times since being a parent. And I realized, oh, that is why we drove around with our kids on top of the car so many times because we wanted to give them that experience. And they don't remember it, but I think they benefit from it.

2:18:14Absolutely. Such a good parent. Thank you. And the final line of... David, you too, by the way.

2:18:19David Sims:Yeah. The picturing... let that horse in here being old having the grandchildren thanksgiving table it feels like home if not arizona someplace far away right where where children and the parents are loved or whatever and everything is warm i don't know maybe utah so great it's just such a good final joke

2:18:41Griffin Newman:absolutely i mean how do you not walk out of the movie just walk on air yes yeah i did like

2:18:48David Sims:basically 90 minutes soaking wet. I walked out on air and I was completely as a creative, I mean, I was I think I was turning 16 that year. Wow. But I mean, it's like, I don't think I've ever stopped thinking about that movie since I saw it. And it was incredible. You are such a dear friend of the show. And we often go like, fuck, we should ask Hodgeman. It's been a little too long, right?

2:19:14Griffin Newman:About once a year. It's like, what's up with Hodge? But there are things

2:19:18David Sims:Things like Dune, where like the second Lynch won March Madness, we were like, well, that it's a no brainer. It's a non question. You're the first person I ask. Right. There are things like Evil Dead 2 are struggling to find someone. We were like, wait a second, Hodgman. And you were like, absolutely. I don't know why that was a struggle, but OK. But there's also there have been things like A Master Builder, which many people say is one of our best episodes. That was like, we cannot imagine anyone who would want to come on this episode. That was our raising. That is one of the greats. We went weird hard.

2:19:45And we did not care about any. There were no rules in that room.

2:19:49Griffin Newman:Hot of every Reddit thread that's like, you know, do us the solid show up.

2:19:54David Sims:And we trust that with you in the room, we will figure out how to make this an episode that people will want to listen to without. I'm sorry. Right. Our friends from the flop house. Yeah. Stuart Wellington in particular. Dan McCoy, Elliot Kalin, cohost of iPodius with John Hodgman. Go on. They had been trying to do some sort of New York movie podcaster and such meetup, which we've done in past years and kind of fallen away by the Commonwealth pandemic Stu's bar on 12th Street and 5th Avenue New Wife but the new bar with his wife what am I saying not new wife with his long standing wife but the we hate movies guys Matt Singer what are we doing here

2:20:32Griffin Newman:what's I know we had been struggling to solve the Raising Arizona

2:20:36David Sims:scheduling problem even though this is such a big movie where we're like it's weird no one's asking for this one and yet it's such a big film that it feels like we can't just wantonly throw someone on it without it being worthy, you know? Yeah. And you're at the bar and you're heading out. And I was like, by the way, we have to get you on. We haven't done since Dune. Cohen's? And you go like, I mean, Raising Arizona. And I was like, yeah, great. I text David. I'm like, we've solved it. Raising Arizona, right? Yeah. And then I tell you like scheduling this and that. We figure out the puzzle. You get back.

2:21:10David Sims:You land. Here we are. You send a long text and you're like, gentlemen, I just want you to know I'm not trying to throw around my weight. I don't want to be greedy. I think of myself as a utility player in the tapestry of your show. I just figured people would be clamoring for all the Cullen movies and that two or three of your regs would probably going for Raising Arizona. I just thought it was such a gentleman's move that even after we said, yes, please, you went. I don't want to take it away from someone else. know that I would gladly go on any episode, whichever one you're having the hardest time booking.

2:21:43David Sims:And I said, you are lucky that this is the one we are having the hardest time booking. And also that is one that you clearly have such a formative relationship. I guess it was meant to be. We just, we love you. We thank you. When I say something, I love you all. You've always been of such great value to us as a friend. Yes, thank you very much. As a person, a friend of the show. I'm very glad you're all alive. The ultimate compliment. Thanks, John. I hope it stays that way for a while.

2:22:06Griffin Newman:Look, this film came out in February of 1987, but we're not doing that weekend. And let me tell you why. Sorry, March. Oh, no. Well, I think it opened small and then opened wide. Yeah, it opened on one theater March 13th, 1987. We're not doing that weekend because that is the weekend of Evil Dead 2, an episode that John literally was on. Wow. Oh, wow. So I'm going to do it wide. That was a big year for Hodgman. It's a big, wide weekend. In the world. Where it's adding hundreds of theaters. April 10th, 1987. Insane to think about these two movies being in theaters at the same time. Yeah. It was definitely April when I saw it.

2:22:43I had not seen it in March.

2:22:44Griffin Newman:It hits$2 million. The film ultimately ends up grossing$22 million, which is a lot of money. And according to numbers, $767 whole dollars internationally. My guess is they just don't have a lot of data. But number one at the box office, it's number seven. Okay. So number one at the box office, Griffin, is a... April 87. A comedy Sort of a youthful comedy I guess

2:23:09David Sims:But it's not a teen comedy

2:23:11Griffin Newman:Well that's why I'm struggling to call this a teen It's this actor who's kind of transitioning From teen to Youngish You know adulty guy

2:23:20David Sims:Is it a frat packer is it a Hughes person

2:23:22Griffin Newman:No who's the other one in that era Who made you know who's like a star Yeah

2:23:28David Sims:It's not Cruz Comedy It's not an outsider's boy. I'm trying to think of who's the other one who's making the transition in the 80s. He's mostly comedy, but he's trying to broaden? This is a comedy. This movie is a comedy. This movie's a comedy.

2:23:45Griffin Newman:He became a gigantic star, gigantic, gigantic star two years ago with a huge hit movie. He's a big TV star. In 85, you're saying.

2:23:53David Sims:Oh, this is Michael J. Fox? That's right, but what's the film? Is this Secret of My Success?

2:23:57Griffin Newman:The Secret of My Success. Secret of My Success. Neither have I. Herbert Ross, of course, is a sort of legendary director but near the end of his career.

2:24:05David Sims:It's kind of a largely forgotten movie that you look at. It's box office grosses and you were just like, man, Michael J. Fox was just so beloved at the time that people were going to see anything he did. And it had that Night Ranger song. Sister Christian? No,

2:24:21Griffin Newman:The Secret of My Success. Meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow. So that's opening to, it's new this week, $7 million,$7.7 million. Number four at the box office. It is a sequel. Comedy sequel. Okay.

2:24:36David Sims:In 1987. Comedy sequel. Comedy sequel. Is it a two? Nope. Is it a three? Nope. Is it a police academy? It is. Is it a four? That's right. Is it Mission Moscow? Nope. I always get them wrong. Fuck. Is it Citizens on Patrol?

2:24:48Griffin Newman:Citizens are on patrol today for the police academy for... I just realized Citizens on Patrol spells out C-O-P. There you go.

2:24:57David Sims:Fuck. That is good. there's a lot to unpack I haven't seen that I've never seen a single police again same

2:25:06Griffin Newman:I've seen scenes sure I don't think I'd flip through and catch a sequence in TNT one character who's a little bit of a has the gift of the gab

2:25:15David Sims:well the gift of the gab or the gift of the gift of the sound effects pew pew pew that guy I'd say that's not gab and I'd say that's

2:25:21Griffin Newman:but it's like his mouth magic mouth meow meow number three at the box office is Michael Winslow is still alive, right?

2:25:31David Sims:Yeah. Good, I'm glad. Thank God. Is he? I am all but certain. And if not, I'm going to have to come up with different evening plans. He's alive as hell. Thank you. This guy is so alive.

2:25:41Griffin Newman:I'm glad. I'm glad of that. Nice, lovely Wikipedia picture, full color. Looks great. I pray he hasn't died by the time this episode comes out. Jesus Christ. Okay, number three at the box office is a romantic comedy from a legendary director with a legendary star, but at this point he's a fairly new star. Interesting. This is a movie that got very bad reviews, but I think it did okay.

2:26:01David Sims:Is this one of the Bruce Willis movies? It is a Bruce Willis film. Is this Blind Date?

2:26:04Griffin Newman:It's Blake Edwards' Blind Date with Bruce Willis and Kim Basinger.

2:26:09David Sims:Blake Edwards did the two Bruce movies back-to-back that were meant to be the moonlighting transition to movie stardom, and they both don't work. Sunset, of course, being the other one. Which is sort of old-timey crime comedy. And then Blind Date, which was kind of a hit, but was just sort of like, I don't know if this guy is going to go the distance. These were pre-Die Hard, both of them? And then the following year is Die Hard and people go, holy shit. People go, holy shit. Number four at the box office

2:26:35Griffin Newman:is the re-release of an animated film. I assume from the fine folks at Walt Disney Studios. That's correct. Okay. I put this on for my daughter once and she could not have been less interested in it.

2:26:47David Sims:Interesting. Okay.

2:26:48Griffin Newman:Sort of confirmed my, me, what I remember about it, which is never a movie I liked very much. But I think it has its fans. Is it a classic classic? 70s. Is it like the Aristocats? It is not just like the Aristocats, but is the Aristocats.

2:27:01David Sims:I would almost say that no movie is more like the Aristocats than the Aristocats.

2:27:05Griffin Newman:Yeah, a movie I put on, because those Reitherman movies are often interesting. I put it on, it has this very shaggy, you know, animation style. But I would admit, I too was always like,

2:27:16David Sims:yeah, I never really loved this one. Reitherman era is my favorite Disney Animation Studios era, and yet that is the one that I feel like I never revisit and have no inclination to. I remember being at a young age where I had learned, I'd started learning about how stories work. And my parents explained to me what morals were, especially when you're watching children's entertainment. Most movies try to give you a lesson.

2:27:39Griffin Newman:You've told this story before, but it's a really good story.

2:27:40David Sims:And my older cousin walked in on me watching The Aristocats. And I got to the end and I looked at him. I was like befuddled. And I was like, so what's the moral of this story? And he went, I don't know. Everyone wants to be a cat. Nailed it. Which is just the song they're singing at the end. where he was like my disaffected, older, like fucking 20-year-old cousin. I was like, I don't know. Everybody wants to be a cat? I don't think this movie's about anything.

2:28:03Griffin Newman:101 Dalmatians, Sword in the Stone, Jungle Book. I feel like Robin Hood. Those are the peaks of the ride. Those are the ones. Number five of the box office, a giant action hit. First in a long running series. Talk about crush-worthy animated characters. That Robin Hood fox. Everyone goes hot for him.

2:28:18David Sims:You might be surprised to hear that Made Mary and Fox and Robin Hood was what I cited to my girlfriend. Jesus, Conk, those are some hot foxes. Is it Predator? No. What was it again? Is it action? Lethal Weapon. Yes.

2:28:31Griffin Newman:There we go. Lethal Weapon. Richard Donner's Lethal Weapon. You've also got Platoon, still in the top 10. From winning Best Picture the year before. From winning Best Picture the year before. You've got a little film called Raising Arizona. You've got Barry Levinson's Tin Men, which is fun.

2:28:47David Sims:Amanda Knox's dad's favorite movie. It's a runner on big pictures. they're doing their 25 for 25. Ricky keeps saying, where have you ranked 10 men? And she keeps having to tell her dad.

2:28:59Griffin Newman:You said Amanda Knox. You meant Amanda Dobbins. Amanda Knox, of course, is the woman who was accused of murdering someone in Italy. I'm so sorry. In a group text. I was like, Amanda Knox is dead. I was like, it's like I swang in a ball that was all the way over there.

2:29:13David Sims:I am so sorry. In a group text containing Sean Fennessey, we were all joking about the fact that her middle name is Knox.

2:29:19Griffin Newman:And her son is named Knox for this reason. Yes. But you're like, Amanda Dot Knox is dad's favorite movie. I'm sorry. Huh.

2:29:30David Sims:But also, maybe it is. We'll have to check. The bit on Big Picture is he keeps going, where are you going to rank Tin Men? And she goes, nowhere. And also, it came out in the 80s. Right. The assignment is movie since 2000. Where are you going to rank Tin Men? Yeah. Fun movie. Fun little movie. Never seen it. Yeah. This is a really mixed bag. Yeah. To be honest with you. No wonder Charles and I went to see Raising Arizona. I wouldn't have seen any of these movies. So evil did too.

2:29:57Griffin Newman:What lethal weapon not so good for you? Never saw it. Okay. Number nine at the box. It's pretty good. Number nine at the box office is Nightmare on Elm Street 3. Dream Warriors. Great movie.

2:30:05David Sims:Do we both agree the best one?

2:30:09Griffin Newman:That's a very complicated question for me. I believe the first is the song from that one was a meow meow meow meow. Great song. Yeah. I think it's the best of the sequels. I think the first one has kind of crazy magic to it and is actually scary. I enjoy all other Freddy movies, but none of them are scary. The first one is scary. Yeah. Like, it's really disturbing, and the way he films the dreams are so cool. Yeah. The third one, though, is the best of the, hey, if these movies take place in the dream world, they should be wild and fantastic and weird. But you're right.

2:30:41David Sims:It's starting to become almost a little more of an action movie.

2:30:43Griffin Newman:Dream Warriors is where it, but the second movie is obviously so strange and such a weird object. And three is like, yeah, let's make a fantasy movie. Yeah, it just fucking rolls.

2:30:52David Sims:It does roll.

2:30:53Griffin Newman:It does roll.

2:30:54David Sims:It's so much fun.

2:30:54Griffin Newman:Number 10 is the Hugh Wilson comedy Burglar starring Whoopi Goldberg and Bobcat Goldthwait, a film I have never seen. This is a big weekend for Bobcat. I know. I was just going to say two in the top 10. He's on patrol and he's burgling. This is kind of Bobcat's peak, right? Hot to trot, I would say, was really the... But that's also... Hot to Trot. We're going downhill. Hot to Trot is a year later. Yeah. I'm only saying that. I love Bobcat Goldthwait. Obviously a wonderful guy. A wonderful director. Yeah. But he definitely is a guy where you're like, huh, when he was a movie star, things didn't always work out so good for Hot to Trot or Shakespeare.

2:31:31Griffin Newman:People didn't know what to make of Bobcat Goldthwait.

2:31:33David Sims:He's talked about that too, where he's like, you really think a whole movie of this is going to work? And they were just like, money! I just saw a trailer for Hot to Trot of the Nighthawk. That's why it was on my mind. I'm not thinking about it all the time. I don't know why they were showing that trailer. I should go see Hot to Trot. David

2:31:47Griffin Newman:That's the 10 Yeah I gave you the 10 Pretty good 10 Although John apparently is completely dissatisfied He bodied the 10 I guess Citizens on Patrol and an Aristocats re-release is not the most thrilling

2:32:01David Sims:Best of times worst of times Right

2:32:03Griffin Newman:And I've never seen Blind Date This film obviously was a big hit And well received but we have as we discussed Some critics still looking askance at the Coens for being a little slick and a little possibly patronizing, although I don't think they are.

2:32:18David Sims:Here's my complaint about the Coens. Are they too good at making movies? Well, honestly, that's what it is.

2:32:23Griffin Newman:That is what a lot of Coen reviews boil down to. It's a little suspicious. Honestly, even post-success. Yes. Like, once they're deep in their success, sometimes people are like, can they stop being so impressive? Yeah. Like, I want to actually watch the movie. And I'm like, why don't you just watch them?

2:32:39David Sims:What are they up to making perfect movies? There are some perfectly executed movies, beyond perfectly executed, sort of like mind-bogglingly well-made and acted that I can't, they're a barren place where my seed will find a purchase because I feel like they don't need a viewer, essentially.

2:32:58Griffin Newman:Such as? Well, this is my very controversial hot take that I was reserving for Off Mike later. Okay. But because of my love for you guys in the podcast and many, many people loving these films that I had never seen, I've been watching the later Mission Impossible.

2:33:16David Sims:Uh-huh. And they're absolutely glorious, but they're just bouncing off my eyeballs because I just feel like there's no need for anyone in this. Bounce off the big eyes. That'd be a good stunt. Hodgman, can you tell us the burn after reading?

2:33:33Griffin Newman:and then finish your point well I was just going to say like all of the Cohen even though they are virtuosic

2:33:39David Sims:yeah and even though they are sometimes very cold I feel like there's room for me in this movie I watch all of their movies so much and I find them very comforting even the ones that are dark or intense yeah and I do think it's because there is a core humanism to them that I find comforting amidst the chaos I when I my life was kidnapped by television and then by commercials for Apple how rude and all of a sudden I all of my dumb pretentious dreams of watching movies suddenly became like I could be in them and I said when I got representation they're like what do you want to do like who do you want to they were like you know you can do anything now you're in an ad it's a different you're all over America but they were like they were like you know we can we can try to make some things happen for you what are your and I was like I'd like to be in Battlestar Collect and if I were to make any movie, it would be with the Coen brothers.

2:34:37Anything. I'll do anything. And I was invited to audition for Burn After Reading. Makes perfect sense. Several roles in that I could see you fitting. There's a very small role at the beginning of the film. Jeffrey DeMonna's The Doctor? No. Interesting. Honestly, I don't know that I've ever seen that movie because I was sad that I couldn't be in it. Wow. And that's why I was able to be tricked later. Okay. So I auditioned for them. It was really a big deal. They were sitting right across from me. Wow. And I was playing some kind of Mormon FBI agent or something at the very beginning of the movie.

2:35:17Interesting.

2:35:18David Sims:We will revisit soon. And I did not get the role. Sure. I don't know who got the role because I never saw it.

2:35:24Griffin Newman:Wow. I was a little scarred. It hurts too much. And I was telling this story on the set of the Apple ads. uh-huh um after it was clear i was not going to get the role but i was like i was excited about it i was telling justin about it and the yeah justin long and the guy who i kept jeff who operated the boom mic he was always getting on me jeff like one thing i learned and this is you know this is a big whistling movie raising arizona i would whistle on set just to keep myself company and Jeff would always say and I understand this because he's the boom operator he's listening to everything he said you know what's funny about whistling the only person who enjoys whistling is the person who's whistling good line I'm like oh Jeff so he heard everything I said about this and the next time I came in to work he said yeah I asked around and I found out who got that part maybe the movie was filming at that point right hadn't even released because I had previously told a story about this actor running into this or seeing this actor in an airport so Jeff was putting things together counter narrative.

2:36:28And he said, yeah, I found out who got that part. Lonnie Anderson.

2:36:37And for a moment, I was like, oh, well, great. I mean, if they wanted Lonnie Anderson, that's no comment on my acting. Like, I understand they wanted to go in a different direction. So thanks a lot, Jeff. He's like, no, I'm just fucking with you. It's more than Lonnie Anderson.

2:36:50Griffin Newman:It's actually someone called Hamilton Clancy. Hamilton Clancy got the role. So I was one of those who was left off the Cohen train And I never even got on it I just read for True Grit, but I didn't get to read for them Question about Hamilton Clancy Is he still with us? Oh, fuck, he better be

2:37:08David Sims:Hold on

2:37:09Griffin Newman:Jesus Cock, that's a hot setup It looks like he is He doesn't have like a Wikipedia page

2:37:15David Sims:I'm glad he's alive John, thank you for being here Thank you for being the ultimate utility man And serving our needs What a stupid story to end on, I apologize Is there anything additional you want to plug? You talked about your new podcast with Jennifer Arnie. E Pluribus Motto available at Maximum Fun, along with Judge John Hodgman, always available on Wednesdays on Maximum Fun. Dick Town is still available on Hulu. David Reese, a friend of the show. We love him so much. And I are working on a new secret project, but I can't say anything about it because maybe nothing will ever happen. James Bond.

2:37:45They're going to do it. Denis Villeneuve directing a script by John Hodgman and David Reese.

2:37:51Griffin Newman:Reese is going to play Bond and John will be the villain. No, I'm a fresh new take on Moneypenny. Oh, yeah, right. Yeah, exactly. Vacation Land and Medallion Sales out in whatever. Hodgman.substack.com. If you want to listen to me read aloud from Moby Dick, that's something that's happening. Hodgman.substack.com. Whatever you can find. If you go to there and you subscribe, it's free and you'll find out about all the dumb stuff I'm doing. If you want. That's a good place to find out. Everyone should want.

2:38:18David Sims:Ben has asked to do the end as always. as I wind this show down, Ben, I want to hand you something. It will have been a couple months past by the time this episode comes out, but Ben recently celebrated a milestone birthday. Oh, yes, that's right. Happy birthday, Ben. And I commissioned a present for him from friend of the podcast, Kellen Jet.

2:38:40David Sims:Worked on the Ninja Turtle Mute Mayhem movie and Spider-Verse and did a piece for our art show. And when we had the art show opening in March, he said, you know what I thought would be kind of a good idea for a painting? and I said, can you please do this for Ben's birthday? And Ben is now getting a scissors, pair of scissors? I think Ben will immediately be able to identify what he has done. But I want to just shout out Kellan Jett for having this notion, seeing it through.

2:39:08Griffin Newman:Sorry, it's well packaged.

2:39:10David Sims:Yeah, that's to his credit. It's to his credit. And when you're editing, make sure to keep in all the awkward silence. Maybe mix in a little bit of David's cup of ice as well to cover the time. Keep my story out about auditions or whatever. Keep it in. Do it like six times. Maybe layer it in while he's opening the package again, kind of as an echo.

2:39:32When I went into the audition, I wore a suit. And because I thought that's what you did. And I can't remember what Joel or Ethan said. You dressed up for the audition. Yeah.

2:39:45Griffin Newman:Oh, my fucking God. Oh, here we are.

2:39:47David Sims:All right. So number one, we have. He included some bonus sketches.

2:39:51Griffin Newman:I think some test sketches to land on the final product. It is. I pictured as the young man who I believe kind of opens gummo. It's the rabbit ear wearing young man. It is a painting of Ben. It's a painting of me. The kid from gummo. Sitting on a highway overpass smoking a cig. Wow. this is a really cherished thing. This is awesome. Thank you. Wow. Happy birthday. Thank you. Yeah. Glad you're alive.

2:40:24David Sims:Thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate, review and subscribe. Tune in next week for Miller's Crossing. Absolutely. Another movie that I love. Pretty good one. Ben, anything you want to say to end the episode? Oh yeah. And as always,

2:40:43David Sims:Fuck that guy.

2:40:54Griffin Newman:Blank Check with Griffin and David is hosted by Griffin Newman and David Sims. Our executive producer is me, Ben Hosley. Our creative producer is Marie Barty Salinas. And our associate producer is AJ McKeon. This show is mixed and edited by AJ McKeon and Alan Smithy. Research by J.J. Birch. Our theme song is by Lane Montgomery in the Great American Novel. with additional music by Alex Mitchell. Artwork by Joe Bowen, Holly Moss, and Pat Reynolds. Our production assistant is Minnick. Special thanks to David Cho, Jordan Fish, and Nate Patterson for their production help. Head over to blankcheckpod.com for links to all of the real nerdy shit.

2:41:33Griffin Newman:Join our Patreon, Blank Check Special Features, for exclusive franchise commentaries and bonus episodes. Follow us on social at blankcheckpod. Subscribe to our weekly newsletter, Checkbook, on Substack. This podcast is created and produced by Blank Check Productions.