Ratcatcher

24:52Right. The person hasn't quite figured out how to communicate what they want to do. Sometimes a movie that doesn't start flashy builds in other ways because performance or whatever. Right. I like a movie to start flashy with sort of like Tommy Lee Jones has the neuralyzer. He's pointing it right at me. The best kind of flash. Right. Erase my memory. This could be my first movie. Or a movie starts with Jennifer Beals like working at a steel mill. cut-off shirt. That's another flashy way to start a movie. That's, yeah, it's pretty flashy. Yes. Or, or, and this is once again a disclaimer because I don't want to make it sound like our listeners need to do this.

25:25If you're not comfortable with this, I understand. But if you're ready for Ricky, you could start a movie with Ricky and The Flash playing a small concert.

25:45David? Yes. This episode is brought to you by MUBI, the global film company that champions great cinema. It champions it. Unlike the others. No, they... Decry it. Barbarian it. From iconic directors to emerging auteurs, there is always something new to discover. With MUBI, each and every film is hand-selected so you can explore the best of cinema. You can log on to MUBI and check out all the movies they got. Art house, cool indie stuff, foreign stuff. Okay, this is awesome. There's a movie star movie now streaming on Mubi in the US covered on blank check soon. Well, I think that's the headline.

26:24Yeah, Die My Love. Yes. You're going to need to watch it if you want to keep up with the show. True, true. I mean, I guess, you know, do what you want. You don't have to, but we recommend viewing the film. Please view the film. Die My Love, Lynn Ramsey's film. Great film. It came out last year. It was a canon that came out last fall in 2025. It's a visceral and uncompromising portrait of a woman engulfed by love and madness starring Jennifer Lawrence, who was nominated for a Golden Globe, Robert Pattinson. It's kind of mostly those two. They're very heavy on the two of them. Yeah, some top shelf.

26:56Nolte? I was going to say, some seasoning of Nolte and Spacek. Like dry age, let me tell you. Oh. Yeah, you've got them in there. But yeah, it's a lot. It's a big showstopper movie for J-Law. And R-Patz. Yeah. Even R-Patz knows. He's playing sack and fiddle. Sure, but then there's a lemon pepper dry rub of Nick Nolte. I love lemon pepper, guys. I love Nick Nolte. I love Nick Nolte, too. Look, it's Lynn Ramsey making her eagerly awaited filmmaking return. Obviously, that's why we're covering her on the pod. We've been waiting for her to make another movie. And it was on the shortlist for cinematography.

27:37of the 90th Academy Awards. I didn't even know that. That's awesome. It's a passionate, complicated, destructive love story between two major stars in Lawrence and Pattinson who'd never been together on screen before. I know. I guess that's not that surprising, but they are quite a pair. The bat and the cat. K-A-T-N-I-S-S. Oh, Katniss. Yeah. The bat and the steek. Mystique, that is. Oh, sure. Yeah, it's an awesome movie. The steek and the freak. Is that something? He's played a lot of freaks. Sure. Sure. spoiler alert for the episode but I was a big fan of the film I know you were have you seen it yet?

28:11I haven't seen it yet I think you're gonna like it a lot it's also based on a book by Ariana Harwitz anyway there's so much good stuff to watch on Mubi but there's also awesome look if you're not a member this is a perfect month to sign up in order to keep up with the show to stream the best of cinema you can try Mubi free for 30 days at Mubi.com slash blink check That's M-U-B-I dot com slash blank check for a whole month of great cinema for free.

28:51I think to your point, Lin Ramsey, but especially this film for a first film, it is what Greta Gerwig is describing. It is within five seconds, I'm watching a filmmaker. Who is this person? What is their deal? trying to figure it out, which is why, like, it is bizarre, David, that both you and I were transfixed by this movie while being vaguely the age of the characters. Yeah. And I, look, I'm not a poor Glaswegian kid. Neither am I. And I never experienced the things that we, what's his name? What's his name in the film? Rat Catcher. No, Rat Catcher will, of course, be joining the Avengers in Avengers Day.

29:30I was Googling for Rat Catcher quotes, and unfortunately, all that was coming up was The Suicide Squad, Ratcatcher 2. Who's a charming performer? I like her quite a bit. Yeah, but yes, for some, you know, whatever. I responded to the kid immensely. Absolutely. To just that feeling of like, you know, being amongst a bunch of kids that you just are not vibing with. I think... And like, you just, you don't want to make them mad and you don't want to do the fucking weird shit they're doing. All three of us are different strains of SensiBoy at our core. And I think a thing this movie captures incredibly well is that moment of, am I going to let the pressures of a kind of imposed cultural sense of masculinity change me permanently?

30:22Right, right. Right? It's like this pure pressure, boys will be boys kind of insidious energy that he is trying to navigate his way around. while also trying to figure out how to just fucking survive, you know? Yeah. And not just survive them, but like everything in his life. Lynn Ramsey. I'm opening the dossier. Please do. Born on December 5th, 1969. Wow. 1969. Pretty fucking rad. Born in Glasgow, Scotland, to a Catholic father and a Protestant mother. and I don't know if you guys know this, but that kind of shit is a little more unusual, especially back then. I was kind of cross-faced marriage.

31:06Glasgow, of course, is home to what they call the old firm. The most famous sports rivalry in Britain between Celtic and Rangers, which are the two big Glasgow football teams, and Celtic is supported by Catholics. Rangers is supported by Protestants, classically. Also, home to the Glasgow kiss when you headbutt someone in the nose? The jokey thing is that a Glasgow kiss is a headbutt. Yes, yes, yes. Jokey? Glasgow kiss. I don't find that funny. Jimmy Fallon would not be laughing at that. He'd go, hey, buddy, please. You know, in Britain, Glasgow blank basically just sort of means like a rough thing.

31:47I feel like British people are like, that's the scariest place. A Glasgow handshake is stabbing someone in the liver. I want to share. I did visit Glasgow for the first time. It was a beautiful city, but I can see the edge. I mean, it's a very cool city, and it's only gotten cooler. Totally. Very cool city. It's rougher days are behind. I do have to correct you. The edge is Irish. I did, though, witness kids very much the age of the older bully kids. Right, kind of like 13, 14-year-old age. I did witness a street fight. Oh, sure. Well, you know what they call that? Glasgow homework. That's pretty good.

32:27So, um, she says her family's, you know, her parents' parents were so staunch that her own, her mother's own mother refused to attend the wedding. Her dad worked in the shipyards in Glasgow. Glasgow was, that was the sort of, the biggest industry, the fucking river, whatever the fuck it is. The estuary. The fucking river. I think that is the name. The fucking river. I'm getting my, I want to get my geography straight here. Uh, you know, But Glasgow is a big sort of shipping area, especially back then, I think. So dad worked in the shipyards, apparently at one point with the great Billy Connolly, the great Scottish comedian.

33:02The Big Inn? Is that what they call him? I think they call him the Big Inn, I believe. Yeah. And then the shipyards close. You know, the city falls on harder times. Dad worked apparently as a bar manager of a gay pub at one point. Okay. Per Ramsey, that was a revolution for me dad. Brought him to the 90s. you know he kind of you know kind of woke him up to new culture that's kind of a cool story yeah they lived in Mary Hill which is like a typical sort of working class part of Glasgow which is where Ratcatcher is set she's got two sisters and a brother she's got a brother named James okay and of course the main character of this film is named James Ramsey says both of us had dark hair my sisters are blonde so we were the black sheep and we were the ones essentially who kind of got in trouble you know we were like the bad kids yeah she liked to paint and film she says was not like a primary interest as a kid but she did love The Wizard of Oz Douglas Sirk and Betty Davis so she was watching something she says that's the influence of her parents she thought she might go to art school she remembers she says she watched The Wizard of Oz like 50 times it's such an origin story for so many filmmakers I feel like especially of a prior generation back when like you just watch what was on TV or whatever James Cameron Cameron recently cited it as his favorite movie of all time.

34:20Cool. It came out that he had tried to develop Wicked, but I think he was implying that he tried to develop a movie out of the books before the musical, perhaps. Oh, that's interesting. But that he was talking with Universal about doing Wicked for a while because he loves Wizard of Oz so much. Very interesting to consider Cameron doing a musical. Well, that's my question. Was he doing the musical version or was he? Or like an adaptation, a straightforward adaptation of the Maguire books. Not totally clear. Don't look now. The Nick Rogue movie. Uh-huh. One of my favorite movies. One of the best movies.

34:58One of the best. Yeah. But a scary movie. She saw it, she said, in an inappropriate age. She was about eight. Mm-hmm. And it was like a sort of thunderbolt moment for her. She was so immersed in it. She said, I had a very happy childhood. so like the films are more like showing her like dark other worlds and interesting things like they're more active it's not like that films were like an escape from some grim childhood no and they don't feel like uh processing films if that makes sense yes uh she was sent to bed uh her parents found out she was watching don't look now they didn't approve that made the dossier jj decided to you're on the fire button already he's gone they sent her to bed that's what she said in an interview.

35:41She does say, so it's her whole thing. She's like, that film wasn't my big thing. But also her parents are clearly big film fans. They showed her shit like Bette Davis again, Mildred Pierce, Alfred Hitchcock movies. It's getting in there. But I do think a lot of my favorite filmmakers are people who find their way to filmmaking. Yeah. It is not the first obvious North Star that they're heading toward. And the way she approaches film definitely tracks with someone who's working in other mediums of art first and applying other sort of ways of thinking to filmmaking rather than just a self-referential feedback loop of what other filmmakers have done.

36:20She refers to her parents as products of a certain intellectual working class movement towards self-improvement and self-empowerment that has all but disappeared with the decline of communities and union power and all that. I think that's a very cogent way of thinking from Lynn Ramsey. She hits a teen. she hits her teenage years falls for an older boy and they start going to the Glasgow Film Theater where she starts seeing more like European art films like Fastbinder movies she sees Blue Velvet basically the sort of arty anarchist boyfriend she saw Ali Furitz the soul of an incredible movie blew her away there was a dive cinema called The Salon in the West End of Glasgow that she liked she also got very interested in photography Glasgow had a visual arts center there was a big dark room and she's basically like a self-taught photographer.

37:06Cool. Starts getting into that. She goes to Napier College in Edinburgh, which I think is an art school. Studies fine art and photography. She likes, you know, Ann Golden, Robert Frank, Diane Arbus, Richard Billingham are some of the names she shouts out. She sees Meshes of the Afternoon, that crazy fucking, you know, Maya Darin short film. It's always like on St. Sam Blitz. It's so cool. Worth watching, guys. It's like 20 minutes long. It's like nothing you've ever seen. That blew her mind, and she applied to film school the day she saw it, she said. The first day she could apply. She was rejected by the Royal College, messed up her interview.

37:44So instead, she goes to the National Film and Television School, which is in Buckinghamshire, which is outside London. Just giving you... I'm giving you kind of... No, I'm liking it. Yeah. And one professor takes an interest in her called Walter LaSalle, head of the camera department, who had won an Oscar for Best Cinematography for Zorba the Greek. Hey. Have you ever seen that? I've never seen Zorba the Greek. Yeah. I haven't met him yet. Yeah. I'd like to. Yeah. I haven't gone to Greece yet. It feels like that's going to pop up in some weird self-curated blind spot wash through series that you launch into once a month.

38:19Absolutely. So he saw an eye. Apparently he plays a British writer in Before Midnight. You know how Before Midnight they're all like hanging out with folks. At the table with Arianne Lebed and everything. That's cool. That's cool. You know what I think is interesting to consider with Lynne Ramsey, too, is that at this time when she's in film school and is seriously developing as an artist, the notion of Scottish film, especially to the rest of the world, is basically focused entirely around Bill Forsyth. Oh, sure. a lovely filmmaker a filmmaker I respect tremendously but is about as local hero Gregory's Girl on the opposite end of the spectrum from Lynn Ramsey as possible yeah he's kind of sweet his housekeeping adaptation of housekeeping is really good yeah but right Gregory's Girl yeah Gregory's Girl is you know is cute Gregory's Girl is one of those films that gets foisted on you when you're a British teenager where you're kind of like yeah it's alright Bill Forsyth is like the most gentle thoughtful kind of like like winsome, these very kind of melancholy comedies.

39:31And I just think when you're dealing with countries that have smaller film identities and one director breaks out, and especially when they become someone whose work is getting exported, you know, Bill Forsyth is getting his movies released by American major studios with American stars in them. It's like sometimes at film schools. maybe not like art driven film schools they're like well obviously this is what our main product is now we need to put out more things like Bill Forsyth movies and Lynn Ramsey is doing something absolutely one of one at that time yeah I mean he sees her eye the type of film director who comes up as a photographer it is kind of like okay you got a way of looking at things not a way of telling a story maybe but you know big influences for her as she's going through film school Bresson, as we just mentioned.

40:24Wow. Nailed it. He has a famous book called Notes on the Cinematographer that I own and have read. I recommend to anybody. It's an incredibly easy read. Hugely influential film school book, I feel. It's just kind of like a lot of statements. Right. It's basically this sort of stripped back, economical, non-intellectual approach to filmmaking. Like it's Bresson at the time trying to be much like all these new wave guys who are kind of like, let's, you know, do away with how things were done. And let's, you know, have a new approach. It's kind of him in Bill Maher mode. yeah and Mar's been trying to get him on Club Random he's been listening to Bresson is too random for Club Random yeah and too dead the only issues she finds photography a way about of documenting things so as a film director that's how she sort of thinks about things like in Ragcatcher for example she points to this moment where James' mother has the hole in the toe of her stocking that she's always darning and James tries to pull the whole out of sight when she's sleeping so she's perfect again and expression of his love for her boiled down to a little gesture like she likes those kinds of little little you know visual moment observation things her visual style is very different than Brisson who's a lot more kind of classical and formalist but it was the it was the storytelling and the writing and I think the sort of intensity of the emotions without the films being melodramatic that she really sparked too.

41:55She says. Yeah. So, at the time, a lot of films were kind of making calling card films. You know, you're trying to get this state money that'll maybe get you a feature film, right? And she says, I wasn't really good at that. I'm making like weird experimental shit that's not, you know, getting the same kind of attention. The Criterion release has three, for short films. It's also on the Criterion app at the moment we're recording this. Her graduation film is called Small Deaths. I think that's one of them, right? Isn't it? Small Deaths, Killed the Day, and Gas Man are the three they have. Producers saw it, asked, let's take this to Cannes.

42:36It won the Prix du Jury. Then she follows up with Killed the Day. Wins another Prix du Jury for her third short film, which is called Gas Man, as you said. This is very similar to Campion of like, Like, you build a recurring reputation at Cannes with the short films and the sort of notion of, like, we're invested whenever you make a feature. We're waiting. And she casts her brother James in all of them. So, you know, that connection is there. After the Cannes success, BBC comes a calling and says, write me a little feature film treatment, please. so you got BBC Scotland you got Pathé the big European financiers and she hands him a 60 page treatment for Rat Catcher she said it was basically a very messy script had some potential obviously because they gave her some fucking money and she says what's it about?

43:33well it's inspired by her own memories of growing up in Glasgow the magical thing to her of being in a city that's right by the countryside you can go into the hills really easily but obviously imaginative weird stuff is in there. And, you know, I mean, the rubbish strike of 1975. So, you know, Britain's winter discontent when like a lot of the garbage unions went on strike. A lot of unions went on strike in general and garbage popped up in the street. That's happening in this movie in the background. Which sparks the rats. The titular rats that need to be caught or because garbage is in the street.

44:11A sign of something having gone wrong. Rather than New York where we just have garbage in the street all the time. It's gotten better. It has. Right. It has. Unfortunately, you got to give it up to Adams for that. You know what? Fuck it. Fuck him. No, no, no. It was a big thing for Eric. The rat czar has been doing a great job. Shout out to that lady. And Spawn's also been doing a good job in Rat City, right? He's been keeping things clean. Yeah. Absolutely. Cool. Right, right, right, right. So she's got this little movie. She's got to find a kid. She looks at about a thousand kids from working class.

44:44backgrounds, schools, youth clubs, and stuff like that, casts a little boy called William Eadie. I don't know. Did he, like... Almost everyone in this movie never acted. Right. It's not like he went on to act. Tommy Flanagan, who's very familiar, obviously, because he's... One of those... There are those Scottish or even, you know, there are those British working-class actors who do plenty of stuff in their home country, and then America is like, you're going to play bikers over here. Right. You want to come over here and play like kind of bikers, sort of southern guys. Like, you know, you've got the beard.

45:19You've got the face. Like you can translate very, very nicely. Tommy Flanagan, Ben, is the one with the very distinctive facial scar. He's got the scar on his face. But he's in Braveheart like four years before this. Oh, okay. Which when someone has a very unique feature to their face like that, very often, as David said, Hollywood goes like, got it. You're a character actor. We know where to place you. So he was on Sons of Anarchy for many, many years. He's one of the Ravagers in Guardians of the Galaxy 2. That's right. He's in Gladiator. He pops up in all sorts of stuff. So, you know, obviously there is a script.

45:57It has the dialogue. She says it's pretty close, but she tries to encourage improvisation in all these kids. Tommy Flanagan, da, you know, is pretty much the only, like, currently working, you know, like, the professional actor. Mandy Matthews who played Ma has quite a few credits okay alright so there you go but almost everyone else was yeah non-professional first time everyone involved in this movie Alwyn Kuchler who's still an incredible DP is you know film school pal but he you know he does he's done he shot like Steve Jobs he's a great DP yeah I mean and this movie looks astonishing Lucia Zucchetti is the editor Jane Jane Morton the production designer.

46:40These are all film school pals for her. It's a tiny little crew. And right, Alan Kutler shot Sunshine. He did indeed. He's done a lot of boils. Yeah. And they get along well or whatever. Good for them. I'm moving along here. All right, JJ. I want to hear more about when she went to bed and when she woke up. Are there any like subchapter headings that indicate where that might be? She shot mostly in the neighborhood of Govan. Okay. I apologize if I'm saying that wrong. I do not know everything about Glasgow. A lot of little urban villages, sort of a little suburb-y. It's got the hills, stunningly beautiful, kind of ugly beautiful is the way she puts it.

47:21So she liked that. She says it is a bit of a dodgy area, but that was obviously kind of the vibe that she was going for. It is a period piece. Sort of like a quiet period piece because you don't really think about it because I feel like especially American audiences are like, I don't know, is Britain like this now? You could tell me. I fucking have no idea. Unless someone's wearing like a powdered wig. Is this a sci-fi movie? Maybe it's set in their future? It's set in the 70s, which is obviously her childhood era. It was a frequent subject when it was released in Scottish Tablets because I guess the Glasgow mayor, Pat Lally, is in the film.

48:01And obviously the film has this somewhat shocking... The bathtub scene. Yeah, it has a film with essentially underage nudity. Now, it's a sort of platonic and sort of sweet scene is how she intends it. It's these kids playing together where there's kind of, it's like they're almost on the edge of like, you know, Roman, you know, like they're in that kind of like in between. Yes, I think it's sort of pointedly unsexual. Correct. That's the point that it's sort of like they are at a stage before it would turn into that. and it is very much in the tradition of like a lot of the photographers you were talking about who were a huge influence on her.

48:40There's a documentary I love. She admits it's risque. She meant it as an innocent scene but she says she was lucky to get it. It was the toughest scene she ever shot. There's a documentary I really love that I forgot about until I was sort of reading about this called Tierney Guerin, The Mother Project who is a photographer that I really love but had a photography show that caused a lot of hand-wringing in the way that she photographed her children and her mother and things like that. I don't know. That's just a recommendation of a film. But yes. Mike Lee apparently loved the film, speaking of him earlier.

49:18Makes a lot of sense. And we should talk about it, and then we will discuss how it went to Canada. Okay. We can talk about the film first. Yes. Rat Catcher. Now, it is, what, 90-minute movie? You know? 93, I think, Soak and Wet. And it's a wet film. Very damp. Obviously it has canals. It has a drowning. But it also is just damp when they're not in the canals. It's a damp-ass fucking country, Scotland. I love it there. You feel like everything's getting sprayed down a little bit before everything. And it's, you know, it's a film that actually has what we would think is a hooky plot of like, it starts with this boy is sort of responsible or kind of adjacent to the death of another boy.

50:02Yes. And has guilt over it. But that's not really what, you know, that's not really the plot of the movie. It is basically an accident. Yes. But he feels guilty and he's not telling anyone about it. You know, like he's like nursing a secret or whatever. And I do think, look, these things still happen all the time and are tragic. But I also think in an earlier time, they happened even more frequently. I'm obsessed with the, just to cite another documentary that I watch a lot, Tell Them Anything You Want, the Maurice Sendak documentary that Spike Jonze and Lance Bangs made in the last couple years of his life when they were working on Where the Wild Things Are.

50:44I think it's like an incredible 40-minute thing. Sure. That's mostly about Maurice Sendak's thoughts on death and how death-obsessed he has been his entire life. The river is the river, Clyde. just want to the Glasgow's River is called the River Climb thank you but he talks a lot about in that how he had a similar incident when he was a child where he was playing like catch out in the street and the ball rolled and this boy got hit by a truck oh god you know and I like to think about it it's terrible but that the mother of this child that he was like beside himself that he wouldn't leave his room that he felt so guilty that he felt cursed yeah and that the mother of this child came over to specifically say like, it's not your fault and I forgive you, you know, that like these things sometimes just happen as and that is in sort of what I was saying about Lynn Ramsey, the kind of thing we don't want to think about, that these things can happen in sort of such a meaningless way in which there is not someone you can really blame sometimes, especially when you're dealing with like children with underdeveloped brains.

51:50Well, that's the thing when you're a kid. Who don't understand the consequences of what they're doing. You really, it's so, how do you process something like that? You just don't have the life experience. You're too young to really be able to like fully grasp it. I mean, this is like a really scary thing about being a child, right? Your parents and your teachers and everyone around you try to teach you as much as they can. But in a lot of cases, you really only learn things when you come close to them being a problem. Right. When you recognize that something almost just went horribly awry and the stakes suddenly become real inside of you, whatever it is like touching your hand over the stove.

52:29Right. Like is the smallest example of that. And then like your brain now fully understands. My parents are just telling me to not touch the stove because they're mean. if I held it longer, I would be scarred, you know? Yeah. And this is the kind of thing where you're like, the difference of a second, the difference of 15 degrees and movement is he jumps out of the water. And it's like, that was scary. That almost turned really bad. And instead it turns bad. Yeah. They're sort of just roughhousing and the boy dies. And I think it's kind of because of the boots. Yes. The gumboots, the wellies. His mother insists that he wear boots.

53:08Trying to get him to dress up for church. And they're really like tall. Yes. Rubber boots. Yeah. And they fill up and I think pull him down. Right. It's horrible. And it happens right away. And, you know, it's like how the film begins. And it happens in a kind of elusive way. Yes. It is not. The movie is not. And then you have James' mother hugging him saying, I thought it was you. You know, like, you know, expressing her fear. And the other thing, too, you're almost like kind of blaming him. it's done in a way where it's not showing him to be evil. Well, you've also barely gotten to know this character.

53:41Yeah. It actually starts with the other character. Yes. It almost switches on you. Yes. And she's filming all of this in this fairly poetic way where you, you're kind of struggling to get your head around what's happening. Yeah. But the thing I wanted to say is that if you become more aware that no one knows how to swim. Yeah, sure. Yeah. Sure. So it's not like he could dive in. Right. and save his friend. He doesn't know how to swim. He doesn't know. Yeah. He's not a lifeguard. Right. I mean, it's like a joke I made when we did our Bright Star episode years ago. But that's a movie where arguably the central conflict is Guy doesn't have a coat.

54:18Oh, God. He really... Winter is coming. He's so cold. Like, you do just... It is always kind of striking to see films about certain communities, especially in certain eras where you're just like, there is just this huge vulnerability here. Anyone could kind of drown in the water at any time. And that speaks to the way that the community reacts to all of this, which, like, is... It is not the most shocking thing that has ever happened in a community. You know? Yeah. Well, they're also so desensitized because they're just living in these awful conditions. Yes. And you just feel the pressure and the tension of everything that's happening.

54:56Yeah. It's a tough opening. and the film is not as dark as, you know, like after that. No. Like it's obviously, it's a gritty film and it's like, you know, about kids living sort of rough lives. But Kes, the film you mentioned earlier, the Ken Loach film, is, you know, this sort of like searing work of social realism that was like such a big movie when it came out. Ken Loach's first feature film. A Boy and His Hawk. It's about this really working class, you know, dysfunctional kind of working class kid in Yorkshire who's struggling at school and struggling at home. And then he gets really into falconry.

55:41And you're just... It's a hawk. What a fucking dumb idiot. It's a kestrel. Obviously, that's why it's a kestrel. Jimmy Fallon laughing my ass. My dumb Happy Meal ass. You know, it's Britain's Old Yeller. Uh-huh. Yes, yes. In that it's like this movie where it's like kids have to watch it. The generational. But even as a kid, you're like, I mean, when you're watching Cassie, you're like, something fucking bad is going to happen to the bird. You feel it the whole time. Which, like, I'm sorry to spoil, but like, you know, something bad happens to the bird. And you know it. You know, like, this is not going to end in this, like, sweeping, happy way.

56:11And whereas Ratcatcher does not work that way. That is not how Ratcatcher, it's not like it's building to a tragedy. It starts with a tragedy. Yes. And then it's about, it actually kind of ends happily. It kind of does. In a way. Like, it's certainly, it kind of fakes you out that something bad has happened. And then it's like, but nothing bad has happened. And actually, he's probably grown a little bit. See, I had questions about that. Maybe we wait to get to it later. Because I was actually unclear about the ending and if it was real or a dream. I think it's real. I mean, you could interpret it as, like, I guess a weird kind of fantasy or dream.

56:43But I don't think so. I think it's more like, you know, he brushes up against a dark feeling and then, you know. Yeah. But I don't know. Maybe I'm ringing up. Yeah, I don't know. Oh, no, actually, right in the credits you see him. I, I, I. Yeah, you think it's, you think he dies? I think so, but I think you could read it either way. I don't know. You're probably right. I also think the thing, this movie, this movie does not, for starting with an accidental death, handle it in any plotty way whatsoever. Right, it's not that he's covering up a crime movie. Right, which you could just immediately, your brain is trained from watching so many other shittier things to assume that has to be how this progresses.

57:25And if it's not doing that, it's going to be a movie specifically of intense suffering and processing. If it's not interested in the plotty aspects of the fallout of the death, then certainly it has to be entirely about this boy working through what he's experienced. But actually, you sort of forget about it for a while because other stuff's happening, and then it sort of starts brewing back up. In a way that I do think is a more accurate reflection of real life. You know? I mean, I do. You read about horrible things that human beings go through. And my first question is always like, what do they have for like breakfast the next morning?

58:03Yeah. You know? No, I get that. We watch movies and read books that depict it as like a person just lies in a bed weeping for six months until they're resolved. And you're like, but you do just have to go on living in some way. you know you have to like go for a walk and like buy paper towels at the store you know and like make small talk with people who don't know what you've gone through and all these sorts of things and that you can go through these waves of sometimes feeling i i think i say this is not someone who has experienced this level of tragedy before but that i think there are sometimes almost like catatonic states of calm you know especially in the immediate aftermath it's not the kind of like Mystic River, fall to your knees, explosion that we all are used to seeing these things depicted as.

58:55Is that his daughter in there? I have heard some things that have led me to believe based on the man with the weird neck tattoo yelling very loudly that it's his daughter in there. That's one of those movies where Clint Eastwood's Mystic River. And Sean Levy talks about this in the book he wrote. You know, and first he says like Sean Levy director of Right, Taka Waititi comes in and he is riffing on whatever that. Epic. Epic. no no Sean Levy who wrote the journalist wrote the Clint book talks about you know obviously Clint shoots one to two takes and that is like I think the first take and you are kind of like fucking credit to Penn that he got there right away and I guess Penn knew I have to like I can't just like work on this sort of like over a few takes like is that 50 % of his Oscar win not even the effectiveness of the scene but them being like oh and he had to go from like zero to a hundred and then they wrapped for lunch.

59:49He wins the Oscar because he'd lost for Dead Man Walking. Yes. And people sort of forget that, that that at the time was considered this crazy loss. It was a little bit equivalent to Denzel Malcolm X, where you're like, this performance is so historic. How in the world could we ignore this? And, you know, that's part of it. But also, yes, it was a big showy performance. It's just so annoying because then he, Penn did win his deserved Oscar for Milk. Right. And we could have just waited. And with one battle, which he is obviously phenomenal in, you're just sort of like, yeah, but does Sean Penn need three Oscars?

1:00:25He certainly doesn't. No, he certainly doesn't. He doesn't. But he is very good in it. He is unbelievable in it. Yeah. Who did Penn beat? Oh, well, he beat Bill Murray. Right. Which would have been nice. That would have been nice. And he beat Johnny Depp for Pirates of the Caribbean, which was like, that was a moment. Right. I don't know if you've heard of that. He played his character. And those two guys, everything's been chill. Regular! Yeah, I'm realizing this is like a really normal category of well-balanced men. So Ben Kingsley and Jude Law are the other nominees. Okay, so yeah. I guess is Ben Kingsley the chillest?

1:01:00Yes. Because he's famously not that chill. I have only heard that he is the most intense human being he has ever lived. Right, he's pretty intense. But not dramatic. Right. He's just laser focused on being intense. Jude Law has never been canceled or anything like that. But, you know, he's gotten in some naughty trouble with the ladies. You know, he's had a couple of affairs or whatever. I would have to say that he's gotten in some naughty trouble with the ladies.

1:01:54I think let's be clear seven children, five mothers. That's like athlete numbers. You know when you start hearing about those athletes who are like, yeah, I got like 14 kids. What do you want from me? He's the Nick Cannon of the UK. I was going to say, I think they are on a text thread. Yeah. That is wild, though, that you're like, right. That best actor category is four of the most extreme men on the planet and just Randy Jude Law.

1:02:30David. Yes. I am so excited about this episode sponsor. Yes. Me too. Might truly be the most excited I've ever had for anything to sponsor this podcast. We're excited to like sponsors that tell you how to like help your finances. Hey, easy. Okay. Okay. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Easy. Today's episode of Blank Check is brought to you by Nirvana, the band, the show, the movie. Nirvana, the band, the show, the movie. Marie's here too because everyone's so excited. Yeah. I love this movie. I mean, I love this band, this show, this movie. Yes. Important correction. This film is finally coming to theaters.

1:03:07February 13th is the start of the theatrical rollout. Yeah. From our friends at Neon. Neon's bringing it out. We have been waiting impatiently for other people to see this film. We saw this at South by Southwest. One of the best screenings of my life. Truly. Truly. It was an unbelievable experience. Ben, you were there. Had a blast. And I had never seen or engaged with this show previously. Me neither. Most of the group. Don't really need it. It was like seven of us. You don't need the context to enjoy. Absolutely. It's a big thing. I think you need to know what Toronto is. Because you knew nothing other than us hyping you up for you.

1:03:41Well, this was the problem. And we should say, it's a city in Canada. Yes. I went in. You guys had just been like, it's the best thing ever. And not just you. Other people. I can't believe how good. And I was like, this is so overhyped. And here's the great thing about David. I'm walking in. I felt mad about it. I was just like, they primed it too much for me. I like that you acknowledge this, because sometimes if we tell you something's good, I see you go put your fists up. Well, I'm just like, relax, because I need to... I can't go in with too much hype, because that's not good for my critical experience of a movie.

1:04:10And then I thought it was better than the hype. This is the thing. This movie is truly a miracle. I think it is the funniest movie of the last 10 years, easily. And listeners of the show know I am often bemoaning the state of the theatrical comedy. And this is a movie that provides the thing I've been longing for, which is you go see this with a crowd. It is just electric every five seconds, rolling laughter. And the movie just builds and builds and builds. This is a movie for Matt Johnson. Yes. Director Blackberry, one of my favorite movies the last couple of years. Him and Jay McCarroll started as a web series, became a TV series, and now is a movie.

1:04:49But you don't need to know any of that. This works as a clean entry point. It's a movie about two friends who are obsessed with their band playing at one venue. They want to play at the Rivoli. That's all you need to know about these guys. Before the lights went down at the South by Southwest screening, I believe you turned to me and said, what do I need to know? And I said, all you need to know is they want to play the Rivoli. They got to play the Rivoli. I've been to Toronto many times. Have you been to the Rivoli? Never. I've stayed on Queen West, though, and I've certainly walked by the Rivoli many times.

1:05:17And I've always been like, oh, yeah, the Rivoli. There it is. It's not Carnegie Hall. No, it's a fucking bar. And you never see these guys. What do you mean? It's the most important music venue in Canada. You never see these guys practice their music. But all you know is that every episode starts with, here's the plan. Here's how we play the Rivoli, right? We got to play the Rivoli. And this movie starts from there and explodes in unbelievable ways. I think this movie is truly like a magic trick beyond just how funny it is and for how much it's caked in the deep lore of this Nirvana, the band, the show universe that's existed for 15 years.

1:05:48you can just go in knowing nothing and be blown away. And for a movie that seems kind of slapdash and roughly made from the start, it starts to pull off genuine like cinematic magic tricks where you cannot believe how this thing was made. What was my Letterboxd review, Griff? Did you see it? No, please tell me. LOL, how did they make this? Truly. That was how I felt. How did this get made? No, but I was also just like, how did they make this? I don't get it. You don't understand how they're getting away with it legally. you don't understand how it was cleared for release. And there is a melding of scripted and non-scripted, them engaging with real people on the street where the line between what is planned and what is not boggles your brain.

1:06:32It was my favorite thing I saw all of 2025. And now it's coming out in 2026. Now, listen, I do have to do some talking points, okay? Do some talking points. Nirvana the Band, the show, the movie, is in theaters February 13th. Get tickets now. Now, we must say this. Nirvana, the band, the show, the movie. They're very clear that we have to say the title of this thing a few times. Nirvana, the band, the show, the movie. Why? It's a really simple, easy title. Nirvana, the band, the show, the movie. It really is a kind of like going cold expecting something fun. I don't think you need too much more than that.

1:07:03I know it sounds unwieldy or whatever, but just like I think you're going to have a pretty good time. If you trust our opinion at all, take this recommendation. Don't look it up. go in and I really, really doubt there is any chance you will be disappointed. In theaters February 13th. Get your tickets now. Nervon and the man, the show, the movie.

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1:10:03Suko. He was the little Kong baby. Suko. Suko. Suko.

1:10:23Rat catcher. Rat catcher. James, our little boy, lives in Glasgow. But sometimes he takes this bus to the end of the road. Right? And he just goes and fucks around in this kind of unbuilt, I think it's under construction housing estate, that's like utopian right by this field of wheat exactly like it's like and it's suddenly like there's so much color like that that shot of you know like through the window of like this blue sky and the you know like suddenly it's not fucking raining it is the moment of like exceed in my opinion is the moment of extreme transcendence in this film when he's sort of exploring around this, I was going to say abandoned, but it's an unfinished, in-progress home and looking through its window and seeing this like insane, picturesque, kind of Terrence Malick field of golden wheat.

1:11:19And then he jumps through the window into it and runs through it. And it feels like he's jumping into a painting, like he's jumping into a Van Gogh or something. So he's got that. That's nice. But it's like the aspiration to escape his entire life. And then, right. It's not just about the death that he's experienced, but it's like he's surrounded by like constant pain, effort, struggle. And he's also constantly surrounded by people. I mean, it is such cramped living conditions. He shares quite a small apartment with his family. No one seems happy. Everyone is going through it. But it is not, again, nil by mouth of like, this is about an experience of boys having of like extreme social neglect.

1:12:03It's more just like their lives are fairly shitty. Yes. And he's got some siblings. Mm-hmm. You know, his dad is, you know, always seems to be you know, on the lash sometimes not to. On the lash? Yeah. Does that mean three sheets to the wind? Yeah, going out getting fucking drunk. I've never heard of on the lash. Yeah. You would say essentially like, what are we doing tonight? we're gonna go on the fucking lash mates, you know? Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I like that it is basically not some fucking movie that's, like, made for, like, a government official to watch and be like, we need to send more money.

1:12:44Like, you know what I mean? Like, there's some movies like that where it's like, this is a statement film about, like, you know, an extreme condition. It's more just like, no, man, this is just what life is like for a lot of people. It's weird. You know, especially at this time, you know, in the 70s and in urban cities. urban situations. Yeah. Without feeling like it's trying to push a point. Exactly. Just kind of over the top. So, but there's, you know, there's the prong of like he has these kind of like magical little adventures. And then there's the prong of his family life is kind of like a bit dodgy.

1:13:16And then there's the gang. The Neds, I think is what they call them in Scotland. Yes. In England, London, we call them Yabs. Who regularly target this young girl. This girl, Margaret Anne. Margaret Anne. played by the actress. His name is Leanne Mullen. She's pretty phenomenal in this. She's great. She's great. And like James and Margaret Ann feel like the vibe is just like they're just both a little different. Maybe a little more sensitive, a little less interested. But Margaret Ann's obviously sort of being targeted in this like vaguely sexual way. Like they're kind of like flirting with her.

1:13:48They're kind of, you know, like crushing on her and they're being horrible to her. I think she, Ramsey, captures a really fascinating energy, which is sort of these boys have targeted like the nerdy girl with the glasses, right? They throw her glasses in the river so she can't see. It is clearly being motivated by sexual energy, like them struggling to come to terms with developing urges. And that's why they're all fucking insane to each other too. I mean, this is all like awful boy shit at that age. But it's like easier - My boys are going to live in padded cells from like age 13 to 20. I'm just cutting that off.

1:14:27Just by padding now. You might as well. They need it. But it's this thing that like, I just don't know if I've ever seen another movie capture. And especially because it does it without explaining itself of like, they're so horned up in a general sense that they target the person who they view to be kind of like least attractive or conventionally desirable. and then just kind of fuck with her. They're not like violently attacking her physically. And they're also not making moves on her. But everything just has this kind of like odd, unprocessed energy around it. And James sort of figures out how to like throw himself in front of her.

1:15:14Yeah, kind of divert the attention. In a way that both like stops them from really inflicting harm upon her in any number of ways, but also makes him kind of seem like one of the lads in a way where then they aren't going to attack him. There's the moment where he lies on top of her that I find so effective. Well, where the boys are like, go on, go on, go on. You know, like there's this kind of like... There's this energy of like, someone should get on top of her and dry hump her. Wouldn't that be funny? Right. And what he does is gets on top of her and like planks. Planks on her. He's inventing planking.

1:15:49And basically gets to like do the move of, I don't know what I'm doing. Yeah. To stop them from doing anything bad. Right. When he knows exactly what he's doing. Little sacrifice. He's just blocking. Yeah. I should point out, obviously, we haven't mentioned this, but this film, you know, they're talking and they're sort of Glasgow dialect. Did you guys throw in the subtitles or would you free ball it? For sure. Free ball it on this one. This is one of the rare English language films that was just straight up distributed in theaters in America with burned in subtitles. Burn that onto the fucking negative right now, baby.

1:16:23Don't even worry about it. Don't even try. It's, I am very like, you know, even to this day, I'm fine listening to regional British accents and can watch movies and I can discern what they're saying. But this is definitely one, especially also because of the verite thing. I was going to say, it's got like Altman, everyone yelling over each other. Overlapping. Eight characters. Where I'm like, Like, let's throw in that one ing. Let's hit that button right there. Hey, baby, it's fine. It's fine. Don't feel bad. We put him there for a reason. Yeah. So you've got the sort of really grim stuff we're talking about.

1:17:00And then there'll be moments like one of the boys in the gang gets a little pet mouse. And they're all fucking around with the mouse. And you're like, Jesus, this is, you know, animal violence. Stuff is so, like, uncomfortable. They're all trying to catch these rats. But then you're like, is this going to turn into a torture situation? Right. And what are they going to do with their mouse? and then they tie the mouse to a balloon and they make it fly. And then there's this like little fantasy sequence of the balloon going into space. Yeah. But it's so kid-like. It has this kid logic to it. They're like, that's what it's going to do.

1:17:26Yeah. Yeah, that is kind of wonderful and fanciful, although also distressing. But you also, it speaks to... Kind of a Lynn Ramsey vibe. Yep. It's a real like core text moment of her entire worldview as an artist, in my opinion. And it speaks to like the overriding theme of this movie, which is like, is there any way to get out of this? To get out of this energy, out of these social situations, out of poverty, out of what is happening in our local government, you know? The dream of just like, could I fucking jump through a window and run through the weed? He can literally do that, but he can't stay.

1:18:04It also feels like... These rats are here and we cannot cohabitate with them, but also he doesn't want the rats to be murdered by these bullies. if you tie a rat to a balloon can the rat just go to the moon and live there and be happy? But this is actually a pet store mouse. This is a mouse. And I think the distinction is important. Yep, it is. Yep, a little white mouse. Yes. It's also one of those things not to be cynical because I don't think Lin Ramsey made this movie with any cynicism. I don't either. Of like, okay, you know, I'm making my indie movie. I have my little budget like my sort of two million pounds or whatever it is.

1:18:38I get to do one kind of ambitious thing. 10 % of my budget's on this one. Let's set aside a little bit for like something that's a little outside of whatever I'm going for generally. Right. And it sticks in your head. You know, it's like if you're, and again, if you're a fucking can and you're like, what films have un certain regard this year? And you watch that, you're like, I can't forget the movie where the fucking mouse was on the balloon. Un certain regard. But in film festivals, you're watching four movies a day. Yeah. Maybe you're watching this movie at 9 a.m. or maybe this is the last movie you watched in a day at like 11 a.m.

1:19:13This is one of those things where you're going to lean forward and even if you don't like it, say, who the fuck is this? Sure. Who made this? Who's this now? Right. And just a correction of another plot detail I got wrong, something that I never do on this podcast. Ryan, the friend, the boy who dies at the beginning, the mother made him put on the boot specifically because he was going to visit his father in prison. Oh, that's right. That's right. It speaks to even just. Right. This grimness. The grimness, the loop of inevitability. And then she gives James, the boy, she gives him Ryan's sandals.

1:19:46Those are the trick shoes. Right, right. Those are nicer shoes she gives. And she had gone out to get those sandals while he ran off to play. Let's wrap it up. This episode, I can't think about this. But she also has that scene where she wants to look at him because he reminds her of him and is saying, like, your eyes are the same. Not like, seeing you reminds me of his death. Like, is your face close enough that I can still experience some of it? And that scene is his mother pushing him to give this woman the moment she needs. And he just doesn't even know how to react. You know, he doesn't push back against it in an extreme way.

1:20:21He doesn't start crying. It's just like, I don't understand the intensity of emotion happening right now. And it's very genuine of that age, too, the way that he plays this just like frozen, I don't know what to do. I feel like that character, he does it a few times or even adults talk to him and he's just like unable to respond or communicate or even just react to them. And Margaret Ann clearly becomes like his one ally, the one person who he feels some kind of solace and understanding from. But also they don't talk that much. And when they're talking, they're not talking about their feelings at length.

1:21:02It is basically just the two of them sensing there are simpatico energies here. We both feel overwhelmed by the same things happening around us. Right. We're both trying to reckon with the things happening inside of us. Yeah. Right. Me, I don't know. I'd probably just be like, I'm going to go to law school. Maybe, you know, get a great job and just fucking pull my bootstraps. Work for J.D. Vance. Oh, that's so true. And, you know, Hillbilly Elegy is like a really similar film in terms of quality. Well, better. It's a better film. It's a better film and it had a better effect on our world. I know you're saying that this movie is pointedly not kind of an issue, like driving a point movie.

1:21:43It's funny because you look at like the plot. I look at Hillbilly Elogy. Yes. No, no, you look at Hillbilly. Yeah, you want to talk more about that one? It was a statement movie. The statement was, elect him. It's God bless Ron Howard, who has made films I like. Yes. And seems like a guy with a head in his shoulders. And has said publicly, like I'm sort of a little baffled and saddened by J.D. Vance's career. I do not think that was anyone's intent in making that film. And in fact, many people have psychoanalyzed, including people close to him. That he felt rejected by like, you know. The negative rejection from Hollywood.

1:22:12Much like Donald Trump. That the cool celebrities didn't like his movie. Radicalized. Personally, I think J.D. Vance is no good. Personally, I think we live in hell. Personally, I'd like to say, because I agree with Jamel, that he is a pig man. He is a pig man. But Ron Howard. Another great take from Jamel. One, you don't want to have made that movie. I'm sure Ron Howard's like, ah, fuck, why did I make that? I wake up every morning and go, oh, thank God, I still haven't made Hillbilly Elegy. For all of my other mistakes I have yet to direct Hillbilly Elegy once It's a nice thing To remind myself So I have empathy For Ron Howard In that position Ron Howard post Rush Which is one of my Favorite movies he's made A film I really love The sports film Rush One of the weirdest runs Has been on one of The weirdest fucking runs It's crazy It's not good It's not bad It's just fucking Bizarre It's kind of bad I'm gonna read it to you In the Heart of the Sea Wailing epic Kind of a great idea The movie didn't go over The slot The alternate telling of Moby Dick.

1:23:11Right, like what if that sort of true story of Moby Dick, but right, big disaster. Starring like three Marvel actors. Inferno, the third and forgotten Robert Langdon adaptation. Right, that was the, look, let me do something safe. Inferno will work. And at the moment Inferno comes out, people were like, we decided we hate these. We don't care anymore. And he's like, you hate them now? I think it cleared enough internationally to not be a disaster. But domestically was a disaster. Ignored in America. Yeah. Solo, a Star Wars story, did the mop-up job on that. bang-up job there, Bronnie. Normal. Hillbilly Elegy.

1:23:42Normal. Yeah. 13 Lives. The one I haven't seen and the one everyone always tells me, like, you know what? That movie is sneaky good. The TIE Diver movie with Viggo and Farrell, I remember. Yep. Yeah. And I'm trying to remember who the third guy is. Edgerton. I bet you he plays a slightly Tasserturn fellow. A friend of the podcast who's a screenwriter, I remember telling me that summer that there was a screener link circulating that him and all his writer friends on the group text had watched. And they were just like, this thing is winning best picture. Yeah, no, we've talked about it. And then Amazon was like, should we fart that out in August?

1:24:21Amazon was like, what if we put it in theaters for 30 minutes? And the theaters were like, you know that's less time than the movie runs for. And Amazon's like, it's too late. And they were like, but it's going to be prominently placed on the streaming service. And they were like, no, it's a drop-down option when you're trying to pick how many rolls of toilet paper you want to buy it once. And then last year, there was Eden, which was at festivals the year before. Which our man Bilga has been banging the drum for. You guys don't understand how fucking weird this thing is. It is weird. I watch it.

1:24:50It's on Netflix now. You can just watch it. You're allowed. Uh-huh. And I watch it, and again, I was kind of hoping for it. Like, okay. And I was pretty disappointed by it. But it is fucking weird, right? It's definitely weird, and it's definitely a movie where if I, like, sat you down and was like, just watch this film. Yeah. You know, survivalist sort of true story thing about people who live on a weird island in the Galapagos, Sidney Sweeney, Daniel Bruhl, weirdest cast you ever saw. Yeah. And then you watch it, and then I'm like, who do you think directed that? Ron Howard would be the 800th named your set.

1:25:17Right. Like, you would go through, you'd be naming dead people, and I'd be like, no, it was Ron Howard, and you'd be like, no, it wasn't. Was it Ida Lupino? You know, like, you would just keep, yeah. The most interesting thing about Eden is imagining him saying the directions out loud on set. Right, right, right. Now, Sidney, what I'm going to need for you in this take is to take one tit, just one tit out. Yeah, how many movies has he made with nudity? I'm sure he's a couple, but sort of Spielberg-y in that way. It's not really his wheelhouse. Yeah. But hey, you know, sometimes you gotta just go move to the Galapagos Islands.

1:25:52Do we even know what he's doing next? Yeah, he's making a war movie with Adam Driver, which kind of sounds cool. Oh, yes, that one does sound cool. Vietnam movie. He also has made like seven documentaries in the last... He's like, are you a boomer icon? I'm putting that shit on Hulu right now someone made a reddit thread r slash blankies that was like why doesn't Ron Howard get discussed more he feels like an obvious perfect candidate for the show and people were arguing is he more of a journeyman is he sort of like a studio guy does he have a strong enough identity and I just responded 32 films plus 8 documentaries crazy it's crazy that's why we're not doing him that's one of the reasons but it's like there are other reasons but that one settles it I'd have him on I'd love to have him on great voice great voice remember you guys might not know this he was the voice of Arrested Development you guys know that?

1:26:45do you know what Ben you might have to cut this out Ben's looking at me like I'm an asshole right now crazy you might have to cut this out Ben do you know that he was Opie on the Andy Griffith show? they're right oh right it's one of Hollywood's best kept secrets so um we're kind of done with the plot of Rat Catcher almost I'm trying to think it's not a plot exactly so he befriends this girl he fucks around with the boys who are tough he tries to find his balance in between staying on their good side and not becoming one of them which is interesting when you think about The Bone Temple which is the other movie we'll be discussing today we're doing back to back records I watched these two movies back to back and then we're recording these two episodes back to back and it is fascinating how much the movies echoed each other in a lot of ways.

1:27:33It is that sort of like turning point in a boy's life that both movies are really, really obsessed with. Yeah. This is an age where you are not mature enough yet to really have empathy. Yes. It makes me think of the Mulaney joke of where 13-year-olds are the meanest. Yes. It's the meanest age. The worst age. Yeah. They're smart enough to identify what you don't like about yourself, but not filled with shame enough yet to be quiet. Yes. You know? Yes. I've quoted an anonymous friend of mine who works in a field with children who always says, being a teenager should be a legally admissible defense for insanity in court.

1:28:19Kind of is. Their brains are just exploding. Yeah. And it's just, it's like a real fucking like, you know you're you're on a knife's edge figuring out how to be a good person you know and and so little influence in the wrong direction can really set you off and and also these are lost kids i mean these kids are are not latchkey kids but it is kind of a like just go out and play i don't see a single playground i don't see a ball no they're they have they have garbage and a and a fucking river yeah but you're like they're circumstantial latchkey kids right like i feel like the term latchkey kid is applied to like parents who do not engage who do not lock in and pay enough attention with their children and this is almost like a societal construct that is preventing children from being properly parented i just want to say as a former latchkey kid it is also when your parents both have to work.

1:29:20Yeah. To make ends meet. Yes. But the notion of a Latchkey Kid is gone. Like, it's like, that's just not acceptable anymore socially. And it's like, fuck, what was I just watching that was set in the early? Oh, no, I was just thinking about E.T., right? Which is like the, E.T. is the ultimate Latchkey Kid movie. But it's about the waning days of that era because then, you know, the late 80s, Eats and Pats, like stuff like that, it starts being like, well, you can't let your kid be by themselves. It's 10 p.m. Do you know where your children are? Right. And so now it's like, no, your kid needs to be in an after school program and your kid needs to be whatever.

1:29:54You know, like the latchkey kid goes away. And it's like the 70s and 80s are the sort of height of the latchkey kid, I feel like. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. But it's more suburban thing, too. Yes. Like the little kid biking home from school. Like, I didn't do that shit. Took the, you know, public transit in London. That's what I did. Took the bus. From age 11. I took the bus as well because my parents didn't trust the subway. Right. Well, they had the kind of like. There was a year or two. Sort of that era. Specifically post 9-11 when there was so much concern that that would be a target where my parents would make me take the bus home.

1:30:26And I went to school on 81st Street and lived on 8th Street. Jesus. And it was just the worst bummer to like all my other friends lived close to the school and they'd be hanging out and I could hang out for exactly 35 minutes. before I was in the danger zone of the bus being slow enough that I'm back home past curfew, you know, or for family dinner or whatever. Yeah. Anyway, eventually the garbage gets resolved. I mean, there's even like a shot with this garbage thing of like one of his sisters. She's sitting on the garbage eating like something. It is basically because of furniture. I want to correct myself.

1:31:12So, you know, the winter of discontent, the famous winter of discontent, which is when Britain, which is still governed by a labor government, James Callahan's become the PM. Harold Wilson resigns. James Callahan becomes PM. Like tons of different units go on strike. The TUC, which is the overarching union council, starts like fighting with the government a lot. And so like all kinds of things start fucking up sort of structurally in Britain. It's 1978, 1979. and that's famously the downfall of labor and Thatcher comes in for, you know, and the Tories rule for 17 years. And everything was perfect for the rest of time.

1:31:47Yeah. But this is set in 75 and Glasgow had a 13-week dustman worker strike. Okay. So it's set during a very specific, you know, labor action in Glasgow in the 70s. I love this scene because what happens is the army comes in to clean up the garbage. And I like that Lynn has some people being like, fuck you. This is a union town. This is a union country. And they're berating the army for scabbing. And you have the one lady who's like, shut up, you know, we need to do garbage. Rubbish. And then some guy is like, shut up, you old hag-faced cow or whatever. He's fucking, lays into her. I just love all that.

1:32:35That little sweet color stuff. I also love that Lin Manuel is like, and I am throwing away my trash. The way you said Lin, it just put an emphasis on, and I felt like I had to circle back to that. He has the song about throwing away, and the movie's really about trash in a lot of ways. Other legal action has been. He now owns Blank Jack. In my defense. And has sold it. I am but a teenager. to recycle men. A little before the army stuff, we should talk about how Kenny, the weird animal kid. Yes, Kenny's the kid who instigates all the drama and almost drowns himself. And his dad rescues him, right?

1:33:19Ryan's, or James, sorry. James' father rescues him. There's nearly a second incident. James' father becomes like the subway hero, you know, like in 30 Rock. Like he gets like a little burst of excitement from getting the kid out of the canal. And how does he celebrate, guys? Well, of course he buys a bottle of scotch and gets fucking blotto. Yeah. Shouldn't laugh. And we then have, you know, it's not overly dramatic. It's very grounded like everything. Her movies are not self-serious. But he does, you know, he hits his wife. It's terrible in front of the children. Yeah. Yeah. It's just, you know, this film is about people who are just kind of stuck in dead ends yeah right this this feeling of there is no other place to go and and this is what it is and I guess this is also in the there's the really lovely dance sequence that you reference at the beginning of the episode I think that's kind of in this because then after they get into a fight they you see that they figure it out and dance together the wife and the husband you know there's nice stuff there's nasty stuff yeah do you ever see Sweet 16 another Ken Loach film no really good film also set in Glasgow or around there also about like a teenage boy kind of dealing with whatever you know life and that one I think is present day 2002 same time good movie it was just like living in Britain at the time there's like the various strands of British movie.

1:34:59There's old ladies have tea in a village type movies, right? And those will travel. Yeah. Like those get ported over to America. That's$20 million Samuel Goldwyn films immediately. You know, Jane Austen, Charles Dick, you know, period stuff where people are like, oh, like, you know, that's happening. Or like, oh, the victim. They always have the thing on their neck. The rough? Yeah. I mean, that's a certain era. But yeah, they did do that for a while in Britain. You're like, maybe you should bring in a rough. I've been thinking about it. You know? And we'll see. We'll see. 2026. Become a rough rider?

1:35:35There's the kind of full Monty influence kind of like, these guys are doing something silly. A couple mad lads. Right, right. That also is hoping to travel. That's hoping to get thrown over the pond. And then there's this thing where it's like, yeah, well, life fucking sucks here, man. You live in a council estate And someone's drunk And no one can understand anything anyone's saying Everyone has lice The lice stuff in this Did you guys ever have had lice? I did Yeah, I did And I It's so Yeah I think I was 11 Or maybe 10 I was in primary school But it was in Britain Yeah And it's still so visceral for me That feeling of like Being in the bathroom And your mom like combing your hair With a fucking metal comb Yeah And like being like Look, you know and like you see all this shit.

1:36:23I like that he has the moment of they remove the lice and he's like, I won't say it. Yeah. Another visceral thing and this is something you guys probably didn't deal with but also ticks. I have a very visceral memory of a... That's a real, you know, if you're playing outdoors thing. Yeah. My mom had Lyme disease that hit her really hard for a couple of years where she was largely bedridden. So the specter of ticks loomed large and that's why I pursued the role on the TV show so aggressively so I could kind of take back the word and refocus the trauma into something real. Everything I just said is real.

1:37:00Go on, Ben. I just wanted to say, but the way that you get a tick off, at least this is how my dad did it, lit a match, blow it out, and then they press it on the tick so it will release. Kind of similar to like a leech. You ever got a leech? Which only happens to those kids who stand by me. Well, you guys did that, right? That's you blood-let to a treat. Britain still practices like a Tudor medicine too where they're like the problem is we need all that blood out of your body right away. And that's also why David so aggressively pursued a co-starring role on the TV series The Leech so he could work through David the legal David's applauding and giving me two thumbs up.

1:37:42The legal documents are piling up. We're being sued by leeches? Just those guys.

1:37:58Oh my God. Hello, Creek. Hey, how's it going? And who are you? Mack Black. And what's that? That's my name. You asked who am I and that's my name. What are you doing here? You don't know what the name is. What do you want? I'm a construction worker, obviously. As you can tell from my general demeanor, temperament, and this hard hat here. Yeah. I'm sure you've noticed the interruption, the sound. Yeah, I guess I... Yeah, cameras. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. We've been hearing some construction noise. In the building. But I've been struggling. Yes. What's the matter? This construction project's not going well.

1:38:33I have no idea what's going on. I explained to you my name is Mac Black. I'm a construction worker. I've been working in the building. He's winding up. He's winding up. He's winding up. Literally. I don't know what's going on in your life. I knocked on the door. I open. I'm interrupting. I don't know what's going on in your life. You're struggling. What's going on? This construction project's not going well. Okay. Okay. Been trying to build a better wardrobe. There it is. Yeah. And so what you're referring to, of course, is the sort of the furniture, the physical thing. Incorrect. That's a weird assumption for you to make.

1:39:04I'm talking about pieces that work together and hold up over time. Well, Mac, we've got news for you. Come on in. Take a seat. I have a pair of pants and I've been jackhammering them for months and nothing's coming together. We have ad copy people can't see with prompts that are a little esoteric. And one of the people who works for our show responds to those prompts in interesting ways. But nobody knows what like it's like going to an improv show where you didn't hear what someone yelled out. David, excuse me. I'm sorry to interrupt. Mac doesn't know any of that. He's living his own life. You're right.

1:39:35Mac is such a he's such a thoughtfully realized character. Thank you. I'm a construction worker, surly demeanor, hard hat. And I've been taking the jackhammer. The pants short for Macintosh. Absolutely. Macintosh, blackintosh. That's pretty funny. Now, thank you. Quince has the everyday essentials. You got to go to Quince to get a good word. Well, that's the recommendation I've been waiting for. What took you so long? I said fast. Turn his mic off. Quince has the everyday essentials. I love with quality. The last organic cotton sweaters, pose for every equation. Okay. Lighter jackets to keep you warm in the changing, changing seasons.

1:40:09List goes on. I love Quince. I've got, I got a nice quarter zip that I've been, sporting around town. Well, well, well, you're looking pretty smart if I dare say so myself. They got obviously very, very cheap and comfortable cashmere stuff, Merino stuff, a lot of good. I got myself a cashmere scarf from Quince. It's cold in New York City. You need to bundle. Now, I'm a little bit wary. Quince sounds good, but is this one of those companies that works with bottom factories and cuts in the middlemen? No, they're top only. Top factories cutting out the middlemen. Just to be very clear. That's what I was worried about.

1:40:48You're not paying for brand markup. It's just quality clothing. Everything's built to hold up to daily wear and look good season after season, okay? And let's not forget that, of course, every night I sleep under a quince comforter and quince sheets. So it's not just your wardrobe. It's everyday life, Mac. Ben, can I say how much I appreciate that I feel like you're making the effort to communicate with me? You're making eye contact. You're giving me recommendations. What can I say? unlike Silver Spoon Sims over here. Refresh your wardrobe with Quinz. Go to quinz.com slash check for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns.

1:41:21Now available in Canada too. That's quince.com slash check. Free shipping and 365 day returns. Quinz.com slash check. That's great news because I live in London, Ontario. Mac, see you later, man. By the way, big fan of the pot.

1:41:44uh barry jenkins sure his criterion closet video video which is uh pretty early on and i feel like the the closet being a thing sure he like pulls out the rat catcher dvd had not yet done the blu-ray release and says like this is the first criterion that barry jenkins ever owned which i like that phrasing of and it is the third person but he does point to it and he kind of explains why it was like a seismic, life-changing experience when, I don't know, he got that film from his university library or a teacher handed it to him. But you see a lot of influence from this on Moonlight, I think. A hundred percent.

1:42:30Just, even just that, the way Moonlight starts, where it's in those kind of abandoned houses in that neighborhood in Miami. In the cut. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Got it. Yes. It just feels like this movie's influence is quietly larger. It's a good-ass movie. Moonlight is pretty fucking terrific. PFG. I feel like, is it already starting to get a little forgotten? Not forgotten. I just think it's underrated. I mean, you know, and Barry fucking made a TV show that unfortunately no one saw. Right. Like, because of both, it's a TV show. People struggle with that. Followed by a Lion King people that unfortunately too many people saw.

1:43:11What is the show? The Underground Railroad. Yeah. Which is very, very good. It's just like one of those things where it's like, it came out right in the pandemic, was happening, early pandemic. But it does make it feel like, I love Beale Street. I think it's incredible. But then it's like... It's been a long time since Barry's kind of been at like the top of the combo. It feels like we're waiting for the next film in that run. And it's been two other things. No, Moonlight, I think, is one of the best American films ever made. it's so fucking cool that it won Best Picture. Crazy. We've talked about this before, but, like, the weirdness of that ceremony and how it all went down, I do think also tends to overshadow how crazy it is that it won Best Picture in a good way.

1:43:55You know, versus, like, Parasite having that same triumphant moment of, like, oh, my God, the good thing won. Yeah. But that just being, like, unimpeded. Yeah, no, no. Any drama. Yeah, there was a bit of drama with my two favorite Oscar wins of all time, Moonlight and King Richard. Honestly, Bill Simmons was doing the most rewatchable sports movies of the 21st century with Sean on the rewatchables. And he brought up King Richard. And they were both like, this movie would be a sort of like nicely remembered three and a half star fun sports movie if he fucking hadn't slapped Kirsten Rock. Like, just like, you know, not like people would be like, wow, one of the great movies.

1:44:35people just like oh yeah yeah Teenage is alright absolute TNT classic yes I remember saying to you has any movie ever lost cultural value faster like within seconds you mean yeah yes I mean probably I don't know it's so weird like it's like O.J. Simpson murdering people did not tarnish the naked gun as much as the fact that it's like him winning that Oscar and then being tied to that moment which then tied to that movie then we're like we're all just gonna agree to pretend that movie didn't exist much like creed 3 i know this is a point you made but like creed 3 for like made like 300 million dollars worldwide and six weeks later it was like so we've all promised to never speak of this again i love that movie it's a very good movie but a movie that also in another universe i could imagine myself re-watching all the time and instead it feels like an intentional queue up um should pre-watch creed 2 too which isn't that good but is a fun sports movie yeah i i remember creed 2 being i like the ending a lot functional i like the ending a lot i think dolph just crushes i was gonna say the stallone dolph restaurant scene i like all that shit i just love dolph i'm basically always here for dolph yeah remember he was the king of atlantis yeah of course uh i believe he was the king of a specific clan he rode a seahorse yeah he did oh beautiful flowing well i'm i'm well aware that He did that proper country.

1:46:00We used to be a proper sunken subcontinent. That's yeah. You see that thing where James Wan was like, I could direct the Avatar sequels. James, if you don't want to. Yeah. I want James Cameron directing Avatar sequels. That is the first person to throw their hat into the ring where I'm like, not a disaster. So, um, The thing with Kenny is he does sort of almost drown himself. But then late in the film, he just starts taunting James about how he killed Ryan in this sort of out of nowhere way. Poking. Yes. Truly poking the bridge. And that provokes this sort of ambiguous thing at the end of like he sort of throws himself into the water.

1:46:44Yes. And then you see him happy and then you see him in the water and you're sort of like, you know, sort of a succession situation. Jeremy Strong floating in the pool there. Absolutely. which I heard was normal to shoot. He, well, yes, there is ambiguity of whether it is to some degree a fantasy sequence, him placing himself in the memory to process it in the other boy's ill-fitting shoes. Or is this him killing himself? But it's also like, the imagery continues over the credits, but he is alive. He is alert. He is moving. His eyes are open. It is what makes it a little more fantastical feel a little less literal.

1:47:24It cuts to black and it says James will return in Avengers Doomsday. So I figured he was coming back. Yeah, he is Ratcatcher 1. DC owns Ratcatcher 2. I, I, my, my interest excitement level for Doomsday is pretty low. But I will say, I think... What about that one trailer where Captain America tried to sell you Cialis? I think giving us... That's what it looks like. Blank will return in Avengers Doomsday. I know that's a thing that's existed since James Bond, right? It has, right, of course. But there's something about the self-importance of those trailers versus how unexciting they are and ending.

1:48:01It's also just like whether Thor will return and I'm like, likely place for him to be. Yeah. An Avengers movie. You're fucking shitting. Yeah, you want me to what? Just like call, like, should I have a town meeting to tell them Thor's in an Avenger movie? Greta Garbo will return and Avengers doomsday, you have my interest. Right, the Polar Express will return. long retired even longer dead that would get my your nose is bleeding happens sometimes do you need tissues we'll see it's just a little this is interesting i think i think blank will return avengers doomsday is really valuable for the culture i also think much like moonlight in this analogy event blank will return avengers doomsday is parasite and we're forgetting that just a little bit earlier, much like Moonlight, we were introduced to the chairs.

1:48:51I know. And I think the chairs have to come back. You want them to do more chairs? I think the chairs are one of the most valuable bit formats we have in the movies. But do you think Blankful Return has replaced the chairs? I think a little bit. And it might just be that we're in a moment of people being so excited by Blankful Return. That fucking X-Men thing. And we'll loop back around to the chairs. It's not just that they're like, oh, Patrick Stewart will finally send off Professor X. I'm like, he's fucking died on screen as Professor. Three times. Literally, like, already three times. They keep doing it.

1:49:19Maybe four. Yeah. But it's just also that the trailer is, like, Magneto and Professor X being like, death comes for us all. And I'm like, yeah, you fucking should know it comes for you all. It comes for you every five minutes. It came for you in a film directed by Brett Ratner. That's how long ago it came for you. Brett Ratner was the choice to direct it. But this time, they're going to communicate this to each other while playing chess. That's something you've never seen in an X-Men movie before. because it's like he dies in X-Men The Last Stand he gets he gets sploded Professor X yeah and then spoilers for X-Men The Last Stand at the end he returns in someone else's body his consciousness is transferred over don't worry about it yeah and then he then we go to first class then we're dealing with younger prequel Charles sure sure sure but then he died he doesn't die I checked in Days of Future Past it's like a bullet or an energy ray is about to hit him when like time is stopped but he's almost dead.

1:50:15But in future past, somehow he got his old body back. They do not address it. He's still alive. They do not address it at all. We know he beat death the first time by moving to a guy in a comatose state. Don't fucking address it. Don't worry about it. Logan, of course, he dies. Big time. But that's a sort of alternate future. Yeah. And then same with Multiverse of Madness. Some version of him gets his neck fucking snapped by Wanda Maximoff. So you're like, it's truly three. I've seen the guy die. as Professor X. I've seen him die in other stuff too. He's Patrick Stewart. He's done a lot of movies.

1:50:49I watched him die on stage once. It is. He was playing fucking Macbeth. It is so funny that Logan, they were just like, look, the stakes are this time. We're actually ending it for good. Farewell. They're going to die and they're going to stay dead because let's face it, these actors are getting old. They don't want to keep playing these characters. And you're like, they brought back both of those guys multiple times. Patrick Stewart has killed them again. T5! That is old. But his buns are the best. McKellen is 86, and he's getting on stage with me like, I'll do Gandalf one more time, and I'm like, bitch!

1:51:27Chill out! Sit down! Take a rest! Didn't he do a play in the West End where he, like, had, like, a serious leg injury? Yeah, he banged himself up in some way because he's fucking old! I'm not saying he doesn't, I'm not saying, like, retire, bitch. Like, it's fine. Do what you want. But it's just to, you know, manage your health, sir. I just like that. Ben, do you know they're making a film called Lord of the Rings, colon, The Hunt for Gollum. They find him in Lord of the Rings. You can watch those. No, I have not heard about this. This is a movie that takes place in like a one-inch margin between stories we've already told.

1:52:03I think it's nominally between The Hobbits and The Lords of the Rings. Yes. But we understood exactly what Gollum was doing right before this and right after this. They tell you. Right? There's like a monologue that tells you. You'll never believe who's directing this movie. Why, Andy Serkis, of course, the actor who portrays the role of Gollum, which basically seems like it was the only way that they could get Peter Jackson to sign off and approve on another Middle Earth thing. That sort of like with his aesthetic will be kind of borrowed or whatever. And that he'll give it like the stamp of approval.

1:52:38And like Macalyn's in it. Elijah Wood's gonna show up. The Amazon series, he's been like, don't fucking associate that shit with me. Why wouldn't he want to be associated with the Rings of Power? Stick. One of the most electrifying fucking shows ever made. His buddy Andy Serkis, he's like, this is a nice opportunity for him. They start announcing, maybe some of the other actors return. You're like, huh, it has been over 25 years. Then recently, story comes back, Viggo Mortensen will not be returning? Right, even though Aragorn, I believe, is the one hunting for Gollum, largely. Aragorn will be recast because Viggo Mortensen is too old to reprise the role.

1:53:14Which he is. Correct. And then one week later they announced Ian McKellen is returning. The whole thing with Gandalf is it's like he is old. I get it. And so I think they just keep thinking they can get away. And they got away with it in Hobbit. The thing he admitted recently. But even that was 15 years ago. It was a while ago. It was 10. About 10 years ago. Wow. Maybe a little more. He admitted recently he was given some interview about Lord of the Rings because I guess it's... well no it's not even an anniversary it was the 25th anniversary every year the christmas everyone watches anniversary this year of fellowship right oh yes it will be 25 in december yeah and he gave some interview where he was like you know the like third scene i shot is saying goodbye to frodo like because of the way those movies worked and i was saying to peter jackson like what are my emotions i don't like i haven't done anything with this guy jackson's like oh you know you feel sad like you're saying goodbye to an old friend he's like okay he's that scene, you're seeing a blank face, man.

1:54:10I had nothing. It's good acting, though. The Hobbit and Unexpected Journey came out December 2012. It's 12, 13, 14. The reason they're making The Hunt for Gollum is you look up the fucking grosses of those movies that are universally ignored. No one talks about them. They're like billion, billion, billion. There was a perfunctory billion dollars every year. I describe those movies as ultimate jury duty cinema. We gotta do it. We gotta do it. We gotta do it. But yes, anyway, there's gonna be this ungodly Gollum movie in which some of the actors return some of them don't some of them are de-aged some of them are recast like you're gonna have like waxy de-aged Orlando Bloom standing next to some new guy playing Aragorn cause Orlando Bloom he'll put the ears on for anything they were like this movie's called Legolas Takes a Shit he's like put the ears on I think he's had them surgically welded on I think other movies have to shave them down exactly Yeah, he has to take him off to do another episode of Easy.

1:55:14Interestingly, we're talking about Peter Jackson, who, of course, took a job from Lin Ramsey to make The Lovely Bones. I mean, he didn't steal the job. Are you familiar with The Lovely Bones, Ben? I'm not. So The Lovely Bones is a best-selling novel, Ben, written in the early 2000s by Alice Sebald that was a big hit. It is about a young girl who is murdered by a child sexual predator. Jesus. And she, in the afterlife... It gets worse! is trying to solve her own murder and communicate with her parents from the beyond. It was this wildly successful, beloved, acclaimed book that people were like, but how the fuck do you adapt this?

1:55:47This is so intense. And it was like her magnum opus dream project. It was Ramsey was like, I have a take and I can do it. And she got, we'll talk about it. And the writer approved deep into development, was pretty close to like getting it up and running. And then basically Peter Jackson snipes it from her. At the moment where Peter Jackson has so much fucking power, that if he's interested, the novelist goes like, sorry, I'm breaking our contract. And Peter Jackson makes it and it's a disaster. It's one of the worst. It's the worst film he ever made. But there's an insult to injury of, you know, my movie was taken for me and then fucked up by doing the exact opposite of what I would have done.

1:56:24That sucks. Yeah. And I love Peter Jackson's films. He's done a lot of them. And I'm confident in saying that that film is worse than the Three Hobbit movies. Yeah. I would watch those Three Hobbit movies any day of the week. I'm never fucking watching Lovely Bones again unless we do Peter Jackson on Blanket. Which we gotta do. Which we'll do someday. Rat Catcher. Yeah, really good. Really good. It's a great movie. She's made five great films in my opinion. Film premiered at the Cannes Film Festival and it was sort of a buzzy hit. Was really praised. I think it was kind of that like this is a Ken Loach, Mike Lee kind of thing.

1:57:00It's not some sort of prepackaged British shit that's like, you know, whatever. This is a new voice. Yeah. Yeah. She says, and she's addressing what I'm saying, a lot of people have misconstrued this film as social realism. It's not really that. Try to avoid those cliches. And I think she's right. It's more like you're in a boy's head kind of film. I say it many times across this miniseries. I will keep saying it. I think no one is better at depicting the inner life than Lynn Ramsey. Here's a great quote. I think that is like the great project of her work. Here's a great quote from Lynn Ramsey.

1:57:32I'm just going to read it verbatim. Quote, I wish I'd never mentioned Bresson. I'm not trying to make an homage or a pastiche like all those Tarantino copycats, those film boys who are just making wank. Muchette, Ben, is, in my opinion, probably one of the 10 greatest films ever made. If I were handed a Sight & Sound ballot, you know, if Sight & Sound starts sucking ass and they handed me a ballot, it would be in my 10, no question. And it's a little parallel to this in that it's about like a young French girl in a small country town who is just faced with indignity after indignity. It's a tough watch.

1:58:10And it's kind of her stoic suffering across this. But they are wildly different movies. Oh, yeah, definitely. Wildly. Got it. Film came out, made about a million dollars, came out in Britain in 99, came out in America about a year later into like October 2000. And we are going to do the box office game for October 13th, 2000, Griffin. Okay, so Rat Catcher's number one, it opens to 15? Yeah, I know. This film opened on two screens and made$10 ,000. I'd love to know which screens, honestly. What New York Indy Theater had it or whatever. Yeah, yeah. It's like an Angelica. Possibly. It was a long time ago.

1:58:41Number one at the box office, Griffin. I'm sorry, give me the date again. October 13th, 2000. Number one at the box office is a holder for, it was last week's number one as well. It's a comedy. It's a hit comedy. It's a hit comedy in October... 2000. 2000. 2000. So, you know, Bill Clinton's still president. 9-11 hasn't happened. How long has it been held over? This is its second week. It has made$58 million in two weeks. It's on its way to making 166 domestic and 330 worldwide. It's a huge hit. That's quite big. It spawned sequels. Okay. It's a movie star movie, and it's getting a sequel this year.

1:59:22Oh, oh. This is Meet the Parents. Stiller and De Niro are meeting the parents. It's funny to consider these movies opening the same. Well, no, I guess this was its second weekend. This was its second weekend. Yeah. Focker in law, Ben. Yep. Yeah. Not a franchise I respond to extensively. Ben, calm down. Don't get too excited on Mike. Number two at the box. You, like, meet the parents at the time? I kind of enjoyed it at the time. At the time, I loved it. And I rewatched it a couple years ago. And I think it is fine. And I think the sequels are bad. But at the time, I was like, that's one of the finest movies ever made.

1:59:56And I'm like. There was such hype. It is solid. It is fully solid. Number two, the box office. You can milk anything. Yeah, could you milk me? He says that. He's talking about his nipples. That is pretty funny. It's kind of funny. It is pretty funny. It's just one of those movies where I'm like, you haven't successfully convinced me that Ben Stiller would want to fucking talk about nipples at the dinner table. It's just like all this sort of like wild stuff that happens to Meet the Parents. Interesting. Every time I'm just kind of like, he wouldn't do this. But whatever, it doesn't matter. I guess it is kind of like a turning point in the mainstreaming of cringe comedy, but the mainstream of cringe comedy is always predicated on someone being a little bit more embarrassing than their intelligence would suggest they would be in a public setting.

2:00:37It's a year after American Pie. It has this gross-out streak, and, like, two years after Mary, you know? Yes. And it's, like, it's a very mild gross-out streak compared to those movies, but, like, you can see it, where they're like, yeah, we need these comedy set pieces that pop, like, in some way. But also, he's not an awkward teenager. He is an adult man. He is. I think the funniest thing from what I remember in Meet the Parents is when he does the volleyball he like jumps out of the pool and smashes the volleyball into a woman's face and like her nose is like bleeding like crazy like that is kind of like good waspy you know like he went too far like that that works for me is like big comedy Owen Wilson is great in Meet the Parents and it is fascinating that they just completely change his characters for the sequel right they get it in the first one Well, in the first one, he is like preppy, annoying country club, golden boy boyfriend.

2:01:29And then he shows up at the end of the second one and now he's a hippie. And the movie doesn't go like, man, this guy changed. The movie's like, you remember him, right? It's like a mass psychosis thing. And then the third one, he's like a co-lead. And it's all about how he's like au naturel. Right, right. Anyway, Fokker in Law. Number two, the box office is a sports film. Remember the Titans? That's right. Quite a big hit. boys jacquins remember the titans a pretty watchable movie um i want to say 115 domestic denzel washington i want to say that was maybe denzel's first hundred million dollar movie i remember that kind of being trumped well no because uh pelican brief can't be true yeah but let's see let's just see uh what denzel's sort of like domestic takes were in the 90s because he was a very consistent he was successful actor but i feel like his movies tended to make it was like a 70, 80, 50, 60.

2:02:23Less than that. Yeah. But the Falcon Brief made around 100. Okay. Yeah. And this was the second. Yeah. So it's just two. Yeah. And of course, the Falcon Brief had the, you know, the Julia Roberts bump. Right. Number three at the box office. Now, this is why this was, this is a crazy box office. We're going to have three new movies. Oh, wow. Okay. So number three is a... All opening below the holdover. Yeah. So, oh, and I should say Meet the Parents is 21 mil. Remember the Titans, 13. So those are holdovers. Number three, Opening to$7.9 million. It's a horror film. Forgotten. Forgotten. Only memorable for who the director is.

2:02:59It's a first film from a director who I don't think ever worked as a director again, but is a legendary cinematographer. Is a legendary cinematographer. Oh, it's the Janusz movie. And what's that movie called? And that movie is called... Fuck. It is Winona Ryder and Ben Chaplin? You are correct. It is the third in three movies in three years, or two years even. of like satanic horror movies. It's the last and least after Stigmata and End of Days in 99, which were better hits. Yeah, fuck. What is this movie called? You'll never remember if you don't remember. It doesn't have the word exit in it.

2:03:34It doesn't. And it doesn't have the word angels in it? It doesn't. It doesn't. It simply doesn't. Can you give me one of the words? Lost. The film is called ABC's Lost on Thursday at 9pm No, the film is called Lost Souls There we go Winona Ryder, Ben Chaplin, Philip Baker Hall You think he plays like a really like funny Sort of smart aleck Book detective It's just like Philip Baker Hall Oh, does he do a lot of bits? Or let me guess, he's a stern fucking guy Who works, he's like a cop or a politician Miss him Sarah Winter, Elias Codius John Hurt, do you think John Hurt plays like a priest or something?

2:04:09He must play a fucking priest Father Leroux Well, well, well Oh, Philip Baker is also a priest. Okay. Number three. So Lost Souls. Yeah. Just, you know, a flopper. Yeah. Yeah. Number four. Do you think Spielberg, well, he must have watched it. I think Spielberg is like, sorry, Anish. This was like Winona's flop era and Girl Interrupted coming out this fall. It was supposed to be the comeback where everyone said like, but she's got a real big one. And then Girl Interrupted comes out and Angelina Jolie so completely shadows her that within two years, it's like shoplifting incident, Mr. Deeds, she's basically retired.

2:04:46And then she's in the wilderness until Stranger Things brought her back. Yep. And there she was. Number four at the box office is a film that is a comedy film. And it is opening to$5.4 million. Not great. Which is poor. It's quite poor. It is a film. No, no, no. Everyone relax. Here's a little concept I'm going to throw at you. Ben, calm. Do you guys know Saturday Night Live, the television show? Uh-huh. What if a character from that from a series of recurring sketches. He's got his own movie. The movie is Superstar? That is wrong. It's the Ladies' Man? It's the Ladies' Man! So, Roxbury's 98, Superstar's 99, Ladies' Man is 2000.

2:05:22It's just so funny that SNL was like, every year, we guarantee, we will be releasing a movie you won't watch in theaters based on an SNL character. I just find it fascinating that there's like... We're gonna keep trying and failing. Wayne's World is so huge at the beginning of the decade, right? Yeah. Wayne's World 2, they rush out, huge drop-off. They're like, we kind of fucked this up. Yeah. Then there's the rush of the other people want to get in. Coneheads. It's Pat. Coneheads. And Stuart saves his family. Yeah. All three colossal bombs. Right. And then everyone's like, I guess the SNL sketch thing doesn't work.

2:05:54Lorne Michaels waits like five years and he's like. Even less. Like three. One a year. One a year. I signed a new deal at Paramount. The new guys. You know, I feel like that's his pivot is like, okay, we're not going to do fucking Coneheads. Right. But why not have, right, like the current cast. It's launching pad for the new ones. Yeah. The most fascinating thing about those movies to me, it's three films in three successive years. Yeah. And all three of them are Will Ferrell as the second lead. Right, right. Ferrell is the reliable glue guy. He did not identify that Ferrell is the leading man.

2:06:26He didn't. And then like Zoolander. You're like, it's a Catan movie with Ferrell support. It's a Molly Shan movie with Ferrell support. It is a Tim Meadows movie where Ferrell's the villain. Yeah. Yeah. No. And then, have you seen The Ladies' Men? I've never, I don't think I've ever seen it in full. Reginald Hudlin. Reggie Hudlin. I actually like that film. Yeah, it always seemed to me like a pretty and offensive thing, but it was obviously a big flop. Yeah, I think it's interesting, and I think it's got some character to it. It does totally work. Feral is, you might be surprised to hear, very funny in it.

2:06:59And it pops in it? And Tim Meadows, one of our favorite people. Love Tim Meadows. It's a mystic. Yeah. Yeah, Superstar's the one I struggle with. It's Bruce McCullough directed it. Have not seen since then. It's like very strange and sad. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, shocker. It's vague rat catcher vibes. Number five at the box office, opening to$5.3 million. It's going to go on to make 22. Okay. Which basically is its budget. And it's going to go on to get two Oscar nominations. So it's sort of like a soft success, but I think they were hoping for a bigger success. Is it an American film? It's an American political drama.

2:07:33sort of like a quasi-thriller kind of drama it's not the contender it sure is Rod Curry's the contender starring Joan Allen and Gary Oldman and Jeff Bridges in my memory because it connected with Oscar voters I thought that film opened later in the year and made more money it was not it was it was kind of like a mild flop interesting and honestly and in early dream works it got kind of like middling reviews and it was just one of and Gary Oldman was obviously one of the big acting plays from it and he didn't get the nom he got like a Sagnon but there was this whole press conversation and they were like he didn't get it because he's right wing like you know he's being cancelled for his beliefs no no no remind me it was more intense than that he like wrote an op ed disowning the film that he produced and developed and then brought Rod Lurie onto because he thought the film was going to be more even handed right and he is like a thunderous anti-abortion villain right he's like the fucking speaker of the house or whatever he is yeah and he's like this movie has an axe to grind and it's like a witch hunt movie like it's about him like dragging this woman over the coals for you know a sex scandal and but he basically was like I want to divorce my work from this movie was getting precursor noms and it was a big surprise did he get a globe nom?

2:08:48he got no he did get a sag nom I distinctly remember that it was seen as a big surprise that Bridges got in over him Bridges got every precursor nom he did okay so they put both of them in at SAG? Yeah. Wow. And Bridges is, in my opinion, the reason to watch that movie. He's utterly incredible in it. Everything else about that movie is stupid rock brain shit. It is a dumb fucking movie. Barack Obama has often cited. Barack the, Barack the, um. Dwayne Barack Obama. Yeah, right. Barack, what was the joke? Oh, the Rock Obama. It was Dwayne Barack Obama. Yeah. Yeah, sure. Um. Uh, he says, like, that's what being president is like.

2:09:28Like, you get to have a sandwich every time. He has said that's his favorite depiction of a president in movies. It's his favorite fictional president. And if you watch that movie, you're like, Obama kind of was doing a Jeff Bridges impression. You could see that movie hidden when Obama's in his mid-20s. And that's sort of becoming the archetype in his mind of here's how I'd love to communicate to the public. Others in the top 10. The re-release of The Exorcist. That's just like your opinion, man? Sure. I felt like I had to do some joke like that. I thought that was fine. I thought that was good.

2:09:57Rug really tied the room together. Obama. Remember him? Funny. Number six of the box office is the version you've never seen, version of The Exorcist. Oh, yeah. Spider-Walk. Which was a big hit. With big re-release. Number seven, doing great. Opening new this week is Robert Altman's Dr. T and the Women, which is kind of like, is that the last before Gosford Park, or is there one more? It has to be the last, right? Cookie's Fortune is before this? I think Cookie's Fortune is the year before, yes. So Gosford Park is the year after. It felt like he had just officially run through the end of his goodwill from the player in Shortcuts.

2:10:33I remember, that's a movie that I've read defenses of, right? Like, largely it's a bit forgotten. Yeah. But I remember at the time as a budding cinephile. Like, I sort of knew who Altman was. I probably hadn't seen much Altman yet. And had an insane cast. It has this crazy cast. Yeah. And I just remember the reviews were universally like, fucking, what's the matter with you? Fuck you. I'm here for you. I want to support you. Yeah. Why are you doing this to me? Doing this again. Like, there was a feeling of like Altman, can you truly not go five years without crashing out? Like it's like Shortcuts, The Player, You Were Back.

2:11:08You Were Back. What have you been up to? We'll grant you one pret-a-porter. Not six. Fucking what? And you know, now everyone tries to, basically, there's someone to reclaim any Altman movie. Yeah. You know, like if you hunt around, there's someone who's like, you know, Kansas City is awesome. My favorite movie of all time is a movie that many people have said is indefensible. Right. But that was, I just remember critics at the time and then Gossard Park came in. Thank you. Yeah. I told you you could do that. We all like this one. He is my favorite filmmaker of all time. I think it is silly to act like all of his movies are good.

2:11:45He's made bad movies. And your opinion can vary on which ones are bad, but it is impossible to like all of his films. He has made movies that just, I would say it's scientifically impossible. Like there's a lot of movies of his, I feel like, where you're like, this just didn't work. You mixed a bunch of shit together. You put it in the oven and you didn't make brownies. And I like the shit you mixed together and I get why you wanted to do it. And I just don't think it's quite bad. And this will make for a really interesting chapter in the book. But God is this unpleasant to watch. It is silly to be like, yeah, no, five stars every time for Moldman.

2:12:13Of course. That's a little silly. Dr. T and the women in this economy. Sorry, I had to make that joke. Go on. Please. I apologize. Number eight is the Sylvester Stallone remake of Get Carter, which essentially is the end of his career as a screen actor for a while. Certainly on a studio level. Yep. Yep. Number nine is Almost Famous, which was, as we've talked about, I think, on that episode way back when, yeah, an underperformer. Like, after Jerry Maguire, even though it was critically beloved and got awards and shit, was kind of a weird bomb. They released it in, what, like, late August or early September?

2:12:46It was a September release. They were being dumb. And number 10 is Best in Show, which is expanding and has only made$3 million, but is going to make close to$20 million. So it's sort of like a quiet little indie sleeper hit. Yeah, because Guffman, you know, didn't really break out and Best in Show did. Yeah. So we're going to wrap it up with Ratcatcha. But Lynn Ramsey for the next five weeks. Enjoy that. You crazy fuckers. We got Morvyn Caller next week with the Mother of Blankies. Emily Yoshida, the way you said it just might have been a little hard to parse. Mother of Blankies. Emily Yoshida coming on to talk about Morvyn Caller, one of her favorite defining movies of her life.

2:13:26people have asked why it had been so long since Yoshida on main feed. And the answer is we've been waiting for this. We've had this in the hopper. Yeah. I mean, also Emily lives in LA. It's a little harder to just throw her on anything. And yeah, we knew we were going to do this. We were like, you're doing more. We were going to do this. We had two long ass mini series in 2025. But yes, we've recorded the episodes. It's a tremendous amount of fun. It was so good to, to get back in the ring with mama. Thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate, review and subscribe. I'll remind you that in addition to our show coming out on Sundays, every Thursday through the end of Oscar season, we have Critical Darlings on our feed.

2:14:05Critical Darlings! A little sibling show hosted by the great Richard Lawson, Alison Bullmore, and produced by our buddy Ben Frisch. Also over on our Patreon, we have bonus content, three episodes a month, as well as an ad-free feed available. We're doing the Oz commentaries. Lynn Ramsey, one of her favorite films. I wonder if she would love our episode in which we talk about what to get for lunch. That's patreon.com slash blank check. Thank you all. And as always, blank check will return in episode on Morvyn Caller. You see what I did there? Do you want to hear the PGA nominee? Please.

2:15:19Great American Novel, with additional music by Alex Mitchell. Artwork by Joe Bowen, Ollie Moss, and Pat Reynolds. Our production assistant is Minnick. Special thanks to David Cho, Jordan Fish, and Nate Patterson for their production help. Head over to BlankCheckPod.com for links to all of the real nerdy shit. Join our Patreon, Blank Check Special Features, for exclusive franchise commentaries and bonus episodes. Follow us on social at BlankCheckPod. Subscribe to our weekly newsletter, Checkbook on Substack. This podcast is created and produced by Blank Check Productions.