The Ballad of Buster Scruggs with Paul Scheer & Jason Mantzoukas

9:57Jason Mantzoukas:I want to see the Odyssey poster With just those names on it Just like me

10:01David Sims:Just Stavi Just It'd be hard to get the text Everyone's fitting on I will tell you this It's just a text poster Like the Fiona Apple album

10:13Jason Mantzoukas:I heard a great story about the Odyssey Which I think I can share Because it's I think I can share this story

10:19Griffin Newman:If it said Homer Simpson wrote it I think your wires got crossed Oh wait

10:23Jason Mantzoukas:Peter Griffin wrote it Wait that way It was a little flashback like this So I was shooting on the Universal lot, and I don't know if you've seen this, but on TikTok, there was a lot of footage of the big ship from the Odyssey in the water because they were shooting it in one of the tanks. All practical, baby. All practical, right, yeah. And if you got high enough on a hill or on the top of a parking structure at Universal, you could look down at the boat in the water. Now, when they were shooting, it was very heavily covered because they had a lot of lighting equipment and stuff like that. But apparently production was furious that these images of a boat from hundreds and hundreds of feet away were released.

11:10Jason Mantzoukas:And this is that post trailer. Right. Trailer had been released. We've seen the boat in the trailer. that it was suggested that if they want to continue filming, that Universal would have to build a 75-foot-tall wall to block out any lookers-on from this process. Bring in Mr. Nolan's wall. And then when they were told that that was impossible to do, because it wasn't just like, it was a large, it wasn't even like a, put up a screen. It was like, oh, please build a wall. It was that wall.

11:45David Sims:Mr. Trump, please build that.

11:46Jason Mantzoukas:Please build that wall to protect this ship. It was met with great disdain and anger that they could not immediately build a 75 foot tall wall.

11:55David Sims:If I had been in that room, I have the answer for them. Take that giant minion. Yeah. Move it over where he wants. Universal got this giant thing in the sphere. You can see from the highway seats out.

12:06Griffin Newman:Yeah, I can just read to you the Greek, Greek American. First, I Google Greek actors and I got, I think, sure. from Greece, of course. All good. So Zach, Jennifer, people we would have thought of, Tina Fey, comes up right away, obviously. Someone that you guys have struggled to name in the past, Melina Kanekaridis. Melina Kanekaridis is about seven to literally name. Seven rows down here, but she's in there. Yep. John Stamos. Oh, of course. Oh, he's a classic. Greek yogurt. Now, I'd like to see him in the other one. This one, I didn't know. Hank Azaria? Didn't know that either. Is he like maybe...

12:39Griffin Newman:Maybe half. Half? Let's see. His grandparents on both sides are Sephardic Jews from Thessaloniki. I love it. My dad's from Thessaloniki. Two quarters makes a half. Yeah. Now, Olympia Dukakis, who is dead? One of the greats, RIP. Yeah, she's one of the greats. But that's pretty embarrassing.

12:54David Sims:There's maybe not an actor with a Greaker name than Olympia Dukakis. But I mean, like, Nolan's not gonna, he could do a lot,

13:00Griffin Newman:but he's not gonna revive her from -

13:02David Sims:I feel like you're skirting the issue, David.

13:03Jason Mantzoukas:Well, wait, but Dimitri Martin is in it, right? Dimitri Martin is in the movie. Yeah, he is. He does a PowerPoint. He plays guitar. He's so good.

13:10Griffin Newman:And he made his own costume. Minu Suvari I guess I never thought about it I didn't know that I didn't know that Now this one surprises me Betty White Is she Greek? I have no idea That must be a stage name then Right? White Well I think White is her married name That's No no no White is her No White is her name Her name is Betty White And her Mother's name was Christine Kachikis And indeed Was Greek I love it Okay Alright I love that. She's also dead, so cannot appear yet.

13:44Jason Mantzoukas:Unless there's some scenes with ghosts. I mean, but by the way, Nolan has figured out how to bring ghosts back. But they can't be photographed on IMAX. That's the hard thing.

13:54David Sims:Because it's too loud and scary.

13:55Jason Mantzoukas:I was about to say, right. It's not that the camera can catch it. They're just like, oh! On the episode, you guys even mentioned someone playing Dionysus, which I do play on the Percy Jackson show. That also didn't even remind you of me. I haven't watched the Percy Jackson show because I've never read the book. Is that show full of Greeks? I'm the only Greek on that one, too. I was about to say, did they do the same cursory Google?

14:20David Sims:The entire Greek representation.

14:23Griffin Newman:You know, I apologize. Oh, thank you. Apology accepted.

14:27David Sims:I want to also say I'm sorry. I feel like David's been screwing this issue a little bit and redirecting it back to, huh, who are other Greeks who should be in the audience? Do you see what he did? He went straight to a document as if the document was to blame.

14:39Jason Mantzoukas:Well, he did say that he Googled and got some wrong information. I was trying to see. It is AI.

14:44Griffin Newman:Oh, no, I'm not even on there. AI David. That's what I'm saying. I might take this up a little bit. Why are you not on here? Why is Chris Angel on here? But he would be great. That's not surprising. He would be good. Okay, then fine. Then why is Spiro T. Agnew on here? Yes, a famous Greek-American. Wow. Pretty good actor. He's been in a couple things. I guess he lied to the American people. So all those people who are acting.

15:06Jason Mantzoukas:I believe that Spiro T. Agnew was in Barney Miller. One episode. He probably was. He probably was. I am shocked. Michael Chiklis? Yeah, Chiklis is Greek. There you go. I'm surprised that Zach isn't, like, so high. I mean. Zach is third. Oh, okay. So you just didn't read it. Behind Anderson and Stamos. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That makes sense.

15:22Griffin Newman:Who's the first person he says?

15:23David Sims:Jennifer Aniston. Jennifer Aniston. Have you heard of her?

15:25Griffin Newman:Yeah. I mean, I do feel like. Her dad, very Greek. How many times have you played a Greek guy? A handful. Like, is Rafi canonically Greek? No. Oh, no. I've played everything else and Greek only a handful of times. I was about to say, I feel like.

15:39Griffin Newman:a big circle on that world map and you're like, you're here. Yes, anything that the Mediterranean touches, you can play, is what casting directors decided. And then they decided later, you can't do that. We are just going to call. Forget that, forget that, forget that.

15:56David Sims:No, I think, I am sorry. I apologize.

16:00Griffin Newman:Wow.

16:01David Sims:And I think especially because I think the ultimate insult of it, if I can take ownership for this, is not only were we listing prominent Greek American actors. And we forgot to mention our friend. Not even prominent. Friend of his show. Yeah. Friend of the show, friend of our personhood. But also that in compiling the list that we left you off of, we say to Stavi like, yeah, this list is pretty shitty. You could very quickly be the greatest Greek actor in Hollywood. By the way, he could. He could. I'm not taking anything away from Stavi, who is fantastic.

16:30Jason Mantzoukas:Here's what I want to say. I like Stavi a lot. I've been on his show. He's a great guy. I think this is a Stavi issue because he doesn't know that you're Greek. Stavi should know. You're saying he should know. You should know who's on his block. You know. Here's what I'll say. I'm not laying this at Stavi's feet only because I've never even met the man. Okay. And David and Griffin and I text frequently.

16:52David Sims:You're not leaving it at his sandaled toga. You should meet him. We need to bridge this together. I guess it's an L.A. New York thing. It is. I think it is an L.A.

17:00Jason Mantzoukas:New York thing. But you're here in New York.

17:01David Sims:You're here in studio. Maybe we will make this happen.

17:03Jason Mantzoukas:I don't think you could handle recording at Stavi's. Oh, why? It's in his apartment, and I think that you would have a problem with it. Yeah, maybe. He also lives in an egg factory. Oh, no. I've been there, and I loved it. Not a chicken coop, an egg factory. Of all the things.

17:18Griffin Newman:So Paul knows Jason very well and works with him. So Paul seems to have insight here.

17:22Jason Mantzoukas:I could say to you that I don't think that. I trust Paul. Yeah, I would not say you would feel comfortable going. I trust Paul to know exactly what I'm capable of withstanding. Sure. A lovely experience in every way, but it's going to be right up your alley. The show will be great. You guys will also, I think, and I know, I'm not at all interested in making you feel bad. I'm also just for -

17:46David Sims:No, we gotta wear this like flavor flavor. Where's the clock? Here's the other thing. As I walk away from this, I'm also, just so everybody knows, I'm not at all interested in this episode going long, in this being some sort of record setter. I'm here to talk about the movie and that's that. Train on the track. I'll tell you that I have - Oh, sorry, Paul. I know that you guys don't necessarily listen to our podcast, but you overlapped recently with our podcast because we, in a recent episode, started establishing a group of young actors who are all in a cohort together that we are calling... This is how it began.

18:21We are calling the Geek Squad.

18:23Jason Mantzoukas:Or the G Squad. But the G Squad is technically a band, a K-pop band. It's also Ryan Gosling,

18:33Griffin Newman:fucking Giovanni Robise. I'm trying to think who was in Gangster Squad. Sean Penn. Mackie. Brolin. I think Sean Penn's the villain. He is. He's Mickey. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mickey Cohen. Yeah, I think. We went down with Jake Johnson. We went down a rabbit hole of who's in the Geek Squad and who's not. And I feel like you guys did a similar, you guys were creating a similar list. So this is something I believe we could really team up on.

18:59Jason Mantzoukas:And what we have kind of established in our... Which episode was this in, by the way? This was in the, it was Grizzly to the Revenge. Got it, cool. And it is primarily a conversation of who is in the Geek Squad. We're talking Jacob Elordi. We're talking Florence Pugh. We're talking Chalamet. There's been a lot of conversation because it was sort of like, who belongs, who doesn't? Like we feel like Zendaya is out of the Geek Squad. Like she's kind of - Too cool. She's on the, but the Geek Squad is not representing nerds. I understand what you're saying

19:34Griffin Newman:Glenn Powell's not in this role He's not Geek Squad

19:37David Sims:But see I think what you're getting at here is

19:40Griffin Newman:He's sort of a peer of these guys

19:41David Sims:Did you see Bratz the Andrew McCarthy Brat Pack documentary I saw the movie about the dolls with a big head

19:48Griffin Newman:Yes we did With a Z With a Z

19:54David Sims:But I feel like they all talk about that That they got labeled in this way These people who kept working together and would socialize together, even if not all 15 are going out to the same bar every night. And that some of them said, I don't want to be lumped in with this. And I feel like Zendaya. That's what we were talking about. I feel like Zendaya is kind of the Tom Cruise. I would say she's in there, except she has like absolved herself. But Tommy Holland is geek squad.

20:18Jason Mantzoukas:Well, he would be if he wasn't with her. Well, that's what I think, too. There's a few things of what we're trying to figure out is, and this is the issue. And then we will talk about the better. This is a tight episode. The fact that, and by the way, our fans absolutely hated the geek squad.

20:34Griffin Newman:They hated the geek squad. I have a hard out at some point. Okay, I pushed it. I said to Molly, I said -

20:38Jason Mantzoukas:You still have a family, huh? You're still doing that? You're still doing that. The minute it started - You believe it. It's actually crazy the degree to which he's doing it, Jason. Molly said to me, she said, remember, you have a hard out. And I said, you got it. And then that's my assistant. And then, and maybe two minutes into the podcast, I texted her and said, drop that. I canceled. I canceled that. out. I canceled my four o 'clock. I was like, get rid of it.

21:01Griffin Newman:We could have gotten you out of here. I don't think so.

21:03David Sims:I don't think so. Maybe not gotten you somewhere else. We haven't even introduced the podcast yet. We got to talk about it.

21:09Jason Mantzoukas:Can I tell you the one thing I had a dream about the podcast and this is this is what I said. Seek therapy. Yeah. I said, I said, this is the Coen brothers mad TV.

21:22Griffin Newman:This thing.

21:23Jason Mantzoukas:Absolutely. This is great. And that was and that was in my dream and I'm bringing it to... I love my life.

21:30Griffin Newman:I say this in a nice way. It also feels like them digging through the fridge a little bit. And I don't mean that in a bad way, but just being like, huh, we have these leftover noodles.

21:38David Sims:But I had this exact same thought on this rewatch. I went, we all know. We all discussed this as the Coen Brothers anthology film. Is this more the Coen Brothers sketch comedy movie? Is it there Monty Python and the Meaning of Life? It is a series of sketches built around the panicking.

21:55Griffin Newman:like you just read the Lord of the Rings and then there's the appendixes the appendixes are interesting right sort of them being like and here's like

22:02Jason Mantzoukas:yeah here's what's left it's like it's like thumbnail sketches which I think it's like when you see a great art exhibit you might see like oh this is what they did you know before they drew the Mona Lisa or you see elements of things and I feel like weird it's just Leonardo da Vinci's dick yeah it's a lot of dick based with like just a clever smile it feels like this dick's following me around the room the thing for me is like

22:26David Sims:The pee holes always looking at you regardless of where you are.

22:29Jason Mantzoukas:That urethra is following me. Now that should be a blank check poster. A small drawing of... Da Vinci's dick. Da Vinci's dick.

22:37Griffin Newman:Da Vinci's dick. With multiple arms. It's a new down Brown novel and that's important. And Tom Hanks is circling. And what were you going to say? He's going to come back to reprise that character? And he's me... It's a crossover with the National Treasure movies. Oh, I love it. That would be funny if they both are In parallel trying to get something At odds with each other Kind of like a 21 Jump Street Men in Black I wanted those things I wanted that My friend Rodney Rothman was going to write that movie I'm desperate for somebody to do one of those

23:09David Sims:Tate has been talking it up again recently He's been saying I would do it tomorrow

23:13Jason Mantzoukas:The script is great, we still talk about it Here's what I think was interesting And without having seen Predator Badlands The premise is The Predator is in the movie Badlands Yes. And it's very slow. It's very dramatic. I'm waiting for Predator Days of Heaven. That's when I think they're really gonna crack. Predator in Redline. Yeah. But there's a, there's a Waylon. The Sam Shepard character's just played by a predator. Well, I heard.

23:43Jason Mantzoukas:There's a Waylon-Yutani robot. Yes. In Predator Badlands. And I love that. Like, that kind of subtle crossover is really nice, too, because it builds a universe without having to like jam them in there, you know? And I feel like just like letting universes exist are fun. And I feel like, you know, I think that that we miss out on that. But now that everything's owned by three places, it feels like you would have a lot more. Oh, please. Four places. Come on.

24:10David Sims:A hold on and breaking news. It's now true. Oh boy. It went from four to two. This movie, this watch, I absolutely like all of these movies that I've been rewatching with you guys. Some, you know, These are, for me, the filmmakers of my lifetime. You know what I mean? The people for whom I started when I was a teenager, watching them, discovering them, and watching those first bunch of movies. Miller's Crossing was the poster that hung in my college dorm. Truly, the number of times I said to people, take your flunky and dangle is shocking. I just was obsessed with the Coen brothers, and it helped that they never, with a few exceptions, they never really faltered.

24:54And they constantly were exploring and examining stuff that I also was interested in. Detective novels, noir, shaggy detectives, like cruelty, man's vices.

25:06David Sims:Genre rift shaggy. It means to interrogate the human condition. And I would argue that even the ones where they miss,

25:13Jason Mantzoukas:it was from a pure reason. Yeah. Like, this is my argument here, is I do believe that Netflix gave them a lot of money because this is early time in Netflix. And they were like, we want to make a big...

25:25Griffin Newman:They want the cred.

25:26Jason Mantzoukas:We want the cred. And I feel like...

25:27David Sims:Let's also call out this as Annapurna. Okay, yeah. I kind of forgotten. Yes. Very important power player in the 2010s of cinema. Megan Ellison's company that was going to save... The good Ellison. That was going to save cinema by bankrolling all of the young auteurs who the studios were like, no more, we're going to give you money, PTA. We'll circle back to this in a major way. But right, there used to be a better Ellison child who with her father's money said... She still exists. Oh, yeah. Annapurna still exists. She kind of exists in the shadows, though. Like, she's largely pulled back. Do they not have Bond anymore?

25:58No. They don't. OK. No, they don't have anything.

26:00Jason Mantzoukas:OK. But I felt like this is a movie, and I was looking at it and trying to think about it. I don't want to say it in a way that is mean, but it feels like it has a slight element of a cash grab where it's like, we're going to get a lot of money. Let's go do this thing that we kind of want to do, but we don't really have. but we can kind of, because it's not in the theater, we can kind of go and make this thing that is a little less formed than our other things. And I actually think that that was great because you get these like seven great vignettes. And it's like, it's the only, that's in a weird way how I feel like streaming movies should be.

26:34Jason Mantzoukas:It's like, oh, this is stuff that you can't.

26:35Griffin Newman:It should either be like bargain basement action garbage, right, like DTV kind of stuff, or right, like kind of like this is the squarest peg and it will not fit. because this is an uncommercial movie. Well, and the West End several doll shorts were kind of a similar exercise. Same thing.

26:51David Sims:And in that, they did an even weirder release strategy with them. Well, they split them up. Well, they broke them up. You can watch them rather as individual pieces, which I would love it if this was as well. And in that way that you're calling it a sketch movie, which I agree. Because every segment has a punchline. That's what really jumped out to me this time. Well, these are funny. These are so funny in the way that the Coens, that Coen tone is so on display here. And the reality is like, I love the wraparounds because it is like the Coens, I feel like are always hearkening back to those things of their youth.

27:22And this is just Western frontier stories, a book of short stories that are pulpy and fun that might appear in like Field and Stream magazine. Color Prince. Yes, exactly.

27:33Jason Mantzoukas:And I feel like it comes out of time, if I'm correct me if I'm wrong, but in that time where even like Quentin Tarantino is playing around with like doing this, like with hateful aid or. I think it happens about a year after this and Hateful Eight does another thing when it goes to Netflix and I was thinking about that where when that goes to Netflix he chapterizes it and makes it longer but more like a TV show and it's like I love that breaking of form and that's like the benefit of streaming to me it's like the trailer for his now connected Kill Bill was playing at the Vista Whole Buddy Affair Yeah, I'm thrilled.

28:10David Sims:Proper wide 35 and 70 release in December. Yeah, it's great.

28:15Jason Mantzoukas:People pay money, one of the things. And it was at the Vista. It was packed all the time, but it had French subtitles because it only aired.

28:21David Sims:It's the only right time they ever did it was at Cannes. Oh, that's cool. But yes, no, it's the kind of experimentation I would like to see. And 2019, 2018, a moment where you're like, oh, my God, there's things like Annapurna coming into the world, going to filmmakers saying, what's the thing that no one else will let you make? giving them the money and when no one else would release it Netflix goes why not like it felt like these kind of maverick forces were actually opening up and letting weirder stuff get made and as often is the case it was like that's what they used to legitimize themselves before they could just fucking get commercialize it out of that business remember when Amazon's entire first batch of shows were all indie filmmakers and like interesting people like Steve Conrad there's like Spike Lee Whit Stillman right like all

29:06Griffin Newman:basically like It was all the 80s guys Joey Solomon Who had lost their key JK we make Lord of the Rings For a billion dollars and that's all we do It's so good We all watch it I can't stop watching it

29:23David Sims:I'm watching it right now

29:24Griffin Newman:People stop me on the street and shake me To talk about the plot points

29:27David Sims:Where does the stick come from

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30:47David?

30:48David Sims:Yeah? Ben and I are four-eyed cool guys. And here's the thing with glasses. I don't know if you know this experience, Ben. You're living a compromised lifestyle because it's so annoying to get rid of glasses and get a new pair. It's so expensive. It is. It's so time consuming. The tiny screws hurt your fingers. You gotta get a new prescription. It's a whole to do. It's a production. So most of us just live with it. But wait a second. Zenni Optical fixes all of that, Ben. What? Yep. Zenni is an online eyewear shop. Prescription glasses, sunglasses, blue light lenses starting at under$30. You stop asking, do I really need new glasses?

31:28David Sims:And you start asking, why wouldn't I just get them? You do it in that voice. You go, why wouldn't I just get them? You're not agonizing over one pair that has to do everything for the next two years. You get the ones for work. You get the fun ones for when you're partying. You get the pair that only matches one outfit. Yet they got over 150 ,000 five-star reviews. And if you've never bought glasses online before, Zenny has a virtual try-on so you can see exactly how a frame looks on your face before you commit.

31:55Griffin Newman:I'm sorry, Griffin. They actually have 150 ,001 because I just left a five-star review that says, great.

32:01David Sims:That is very, very kind of you. If your glasses are overdue for a refresh, now is the time. Go to zenni.com slash podcast and use code podcast15 for 15 % off your first order. The styles sell out, so don't sit on it. That's zenni.com slash podcast, P-O-D-C-A-S-T, promo code podcast 15. David, I'm sorry for excluding you from this act.

32:31Griffin Newman:That's okay.

32:37Griffin Newman:You know what, Griffin? Why don't you introduce the podcast?

32:40David Sims:Do we have to? We should just briefly. There's something more important we have to do first. We have to revisit the conversation about the Geek Squad because for me... Oh, yeah. David's so upset. I think they're caught. David's like, I thought we would. I thought I'd successfully moved them off of it. The John Hughes films were kind of the centering force. in our podcast of the Brad Pack. They started the conversation. We have to finish it. You can't blame our guests. To your point, what we were talking about was that a lot of people in that documentary don't want to be associated with the Brad Pack are so butthurt that they are lumped into this thing.

33:10And some people are like, yeah, who cares? They call this the Brad Pack.

33:12Jason Mantzoukas:The Brad Pack to me was the funniest documentary because -

33:15David Sims:Also, it helped all of our careers. Yeah.

33:16Jason Mantzoukas:Yes. But not Andrew McCarthy. And that's who's making the documentary. He's the one who pushed back against it the most. Exactly. Which is what's interesting. Right, because no one thought they were Brad. obsessed with it yes well because he believes that his career was hurt by it right and i feel like he got put in a bucket and he presents it right and and but you could argue oh put me in a bucket put me in a bucket of greek actors how about put me in a greek american actor bucket even my friends might recognize you'll never think this can be full of yogurt that's very heavy but yeah i feel like um like i i feel like that's like he also made bad movies like and that's the thing too it's not like oh andrew mccarthy made these three great films and here's the biggest joke of it all saint elmo's fire not a good movie saint elmo's fire is ass that movie sucks

34:04Griffin Newman:people are nostalgic for it and obviously i wasn't there right but it's like people of a

34:08Jason Mantzoukas:certain age were like this speaks to us but it wasn't good it doesn't last it wasn't like these are great actors it's like this is a shitty movie but it captured a moment where we actually

34:17David Sims:wanted to see all these people together well there's a combination of i think the word brat felt pejorative to them and they didn't like the idea that they felt like it was taking them less seriously as actors. Unsurprisingly, you see Demi Moore who's just like, look, this is an industry that looks for handles and hooks. Like, if they want to use this to, like, identify me, then I'm running with it and I'm working harder to prove myself beyond that rather than fighting it off. But these labels, I mean, seem like so, like, comfortable.

34:46Jason Mantzoukas:Oh, my God. It was the best time of my life. And his response to it was comically hilarious. And I love that Judd Nelson was like, I'm not going to even dignify this with being in. I'm not picking up the phone. I'm not, yeah, won't even be in this. Sorry, what were you saying, David?

35:00Griffin Newman:Well, these names are usually somewhat, like Frat Pack was also, it's a bit of a weird label. Geek Squad isn't exactly like the nicest thing to call people.

35:08Jason Mantzoukas:Geek Squad, the reason why we call it Geek Squad, because it does, it may be confusing. We're using Geek Squad as the best. The person that bites the head off of the chicken at the carnival. The weirdos, you're saying. No, no, no, it wasn't. We were calling it more like the best by Geek Squad because they're people who help older people use their technology. So these are young actors who are bringing older people into this. I'm rubbing my hands together. I get it. I see the vision. You know what the Geek Squad does? The Geek Squad plays Bob Dylan so that the boomers go to the movies. That is what we're talking about.

35:41And it's like, I like that kid.

35:43Griffin Newman:He's good. You know who I like? Elvis. The kid who played Elvis. Yeah, that guy was good. He looks like Elvis to me. Classic Austin Butler geek squad. We've talked about it a little bit. You do? I have, yes.

35:54David Sims:Can I just say this before you start reading the list? Since I have talked about this, I feel like never on mic. But for me, the core of what you're talking about, I've never had a name for it, is three concentric circles that makes up the majority. I agree. It is the cast of Dune. Yes. The younger cast of Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. Yes. And Euphoria. Those are the three center rings in the circus.

36:14Jason Mantzoukas:And you are, that is perfectly said. and I believe that that's where we... There might be a few outliers, but for the most part, you got it.

36:23Griffin Newman:Chalamet being the number one where any Hollywood producer would be like, zero things about this guy communicate A-list movie star to me. How does he never fail?

36:33Jason Mantzoukas:Like this is, like, I'll give you a couple of the names. Yeah. Timothy Chalamet, right? Obviously right there. Austin Butler, right? The bear. Did we decide, oh no, we took the bear out. We took Jeremy Allen out. Because of Shameless. But we put in a Lordy. Yeah. Margaret Qualley. Big time. Jenna Ortega, which we felt like was, you know, and then there was these debates. Like, we already said no to Glenn Powell. He's not a part of that crew. Sydney Sweeney, not a part of that crew. Not really. Because it's like you need to be more.

37:07Griffin Newman:She's kind of doing her own thing.

37:08Jason Mantzoukas:With that new movie, the boxing movie, it may change it, but I feel like she's over here. She's also in two out of the three.

37:14David Sims:She is. Of the circles. Yeah. And I also, I'm like, is she like Cusack where you're like. Oh, interesting. He was in the movies with them and was doing his own thing that was very lateral to them. But you don't really put him. She's also best friends with the Pivens. Best friends with the Pivens. Chicago actress. Yeah. Only post great politics. Oh, my God. Yeah. Geek Squad is like, and you're right. It is all of these people and all of the kind of infrastructure around them that is making all of these nonsense movies. And I think it's important that they work together a lot, that they feel like a class that has risen together, that they're unified by certain filmmakers and certain subjects and whatever.

37:53David Sims:Because that's where these things happen of like there's an energy being transmitted at times the collaboration, at times the competitiveness.

38:00Jason Mantzoukas:Well, it was interesting because we talked about Nicholas Holt and we're like, well, what does he fall into this? And we're like, not really, because he's been around. He's been around a long time. I think like Nick Holt, the Fannings, they've just had huge careers. They're not part of Geek Squad.

38:11David Sims:And they started young and it also, they were sort of like Geek Squad before there was a Geek Squad. They were sort of running independently because there wasn't. To harken back to True Grit, I don't think Haley Steinfeld is Geek Squad. There's a great Coen. You guys didn't mention, yeah, that's true. You guys didn't mention this in the episode, but I have a couple of Coen stuff from different episodes that I just want to mention. More bones? This is not a bone. This is just one of the things, a couple of things that I've loved in interviews that, like I said, I'm obsessed with the Coens. But in True Grit, there is a great fresh air interview with them.

38:45And they talked about how on True Grit, there were more rules protecting them putting the horses in the cold river than there were protecting them from putting Haley Steinfeld. An underage actor. They were like, she could spend more time in the water than the horses. And that that was like a crazy thing. the other thing that I love about them and this is from years ago there was a podcast called creative screenwriting where the guy would ask the same questions to screenwriters and one of which is what do you do when you come up against writer's block and the Cohen's answer was we go to our respective offices and we take a nap and when we wake up usually one of us has a solution and they jack it yeah they jack it down you jack it down

39:31Griffin Newman:no that's great You gotta jack it down to zero

39:33Jason Mantzoukas:You gotta alleviate your erection To then come back and have a more Leave yourself with your power

39:37David Sims:So you can focus on your art Get the poison out

39:42Jason Mantzoukas:Now I guess Oh yeah go ahead Introduce our podcast Quickly Grudgingly It can happen I think the last time it was an hour in We're only 36 minutes The first time it never happened The first time the show was never introduced That's good podcasting.

40:03David Sims:That's actually elite podcasting.

40:05Griffin Newman:Was that Used Cars? Yes.

40:08David Sims:Used Cars, Big Trouble. That's it. Oh, as the duo. Each of us have done interviews. You guys haven't been on since Big Trouble. What's the other one I'm forgetting? There's another one that happened last year. Last Action Hero.

40:22Griffin Newman:Oh, that's right. I'm so sorry.

40:24Jason Mantzoukas:No, you're right, but it was on Zoom. I'm so sorry. Well, we've always been on Zoom together.

40:29Griffin Newman:It's so great to have you guys in the... This is great. In the stude.

40:32David Sims:You came in the stude once before for... For a watch-along of a James Bond. Tomorrow Never Dies. Tomorrow Never Dies.

40:38Griffin Newman:And of course, we talked to Paul a million years ago for Running Scared. That's true. Oh, yeah. That was a million years ago. That was a million years ago.

40:42David Sims:Ever not in-person episode. Wow.

40:44Jason Mantzoukas:We carved out an exception only for you. I appreciate that. And I'm happy to talk about that movie because I still believe that that is a great template for action comedy. I agree. And it's so hard to find that balance still to this day.

40:57David Sims:It has gotten worse in the years since we talked about that movie, especially as it has become the domain of streaming services.

41:04Jason Mantzoukas:Well, I mean, and I'm going to tell you, I have not watched it yet, so I can speak to it. I'm too scared to watch the Shane. Okay. Play Dirty? Yeah. I've seen it, and I'll talk about it. I talked to, yeah, I talked to Ed Brubaker a bunch about it. The great Ed Brubaker. The great friend of the show. Yes, the great.

41:21Griffin Newman:Friend of the show. We love him. This is the Shane Black Play Dirty movie that's the - That's an adaptation of the Parker books. Or a couple of the Parker books. I got him distracted. Go on. I just introduced a showing of Kiss Kiss Bang Bang at the best. The Nighthawk this week. The greatest. I was thinking about. One of the great, true. And have you seen Play Dirty? No, and that's what I was saying. I can't believe he has a movie. I could watch it on my TV anytime. But that was my, I was nervous. I haven't done it yet. I was nervous.

41:48Jason Mantzoukas:I don't want to. I want to recommend the Parker books. I especially want to recommend the Darwin Cook graphic novel adaptations of the Parker books, which are unreal and beautiful. And Ed Brubaker helps put them out. Rest in peace. R.I.P. A legend, Darwin Cook. His Catwoman is amazing. Incredible. Incredible. New Frontiers. A lot of great shit. Next level. Anyway. Which I believe New Frontiers is the basis of what James Gunn is going. I think Gunn is drafting off that. Seems like it. And he's smart. I think so. I really enjoyed Play Dirty. and the stuff that didn't work for me felt like some VFX stuff was kind of like mushy and not great and I ended up being there were certain moments that I was like oh this didn't need to be so VFX this could have been a smaller moment but nonetheless even Nice Guys which I adore

42:39Griffin Newman:has a couple of those things where I'm like this action sequence didn't need to be quite this big I have a feeling that's studio notes

42:48Jason Mantzoukas:going make it bigger and then you can see in the product that he didn't really care to make it bigger and he's like, yeah, does that work? Because it's still a small time Parker heist kind of grind. And Wahlberg, it was supposed to be Downey Jr. Yeah, it was Downey Jr.

43:03David Sims:theatrical. And I don't mind that it's not Downey Jr. because Parker is such a fucking asshole. Good Wahlberg cast. Parker and Wahlberg, Parker is a brutal, absolute, ruthless, humorless, charmless person. and Downey Jr. is not at all that and Wahlberg does a good job of that but I have seen and heard criticism where people are like oh he's just so unlikable he's just blah blah blah

43:30Griffin Newman:and that's Parker but I do feel like that's do you have any relationship with Wahlberg at this point I mean you made the movie with him where I played the artisan

43:38Jason Mantzoukas:you did play the artisan and by the way again now I'm going to have to come on with a song and I was in Daddy's Home and that's right you were in Daddy's Home

43:46Griffin Newman:but I mean is he a guy who's like hey Jesus Nope. Like, come see Parker. That wasn't on me, that was on him. It doesn't seem like his vibe really. He is not at all a person who is like, hey Jason. And I think if you were to show him my picture and be like, who is this? He would be like, I have no idea. Would he be like, I might have worked with this guy? You look so generic, maybe. A thousand people look like you. You know what? And you're always changing the way you dress. If he showed a picture of you,

44:11Jason Mantzoukas:I bet you what he would do is pray on it. Yeah, probably. He'd pray on it.

44:15Griffin Newman:He'd throw up on hollers. He has this nervy vibe on screen now that he didn't, I mean, he's always been a little that, but like, I do feel like with him on screen lately, I'm like, are you having fun? Like you always seem so bummed out.

44:28Jason Mantzoukas:This is what I will say about him. Sure. And I, it's with very few actors. They're either great, terrible, or like, you don't know what you're going to. He is Mr. Famine. I completely agree. And it's like, and sometimes you're just like, I don't even understand. Like, and I think it's a lot about the director. And I think if the director is hard on him or put, or really has a point of view, you get a great performance. If it's like Max Payne and it's like, I'm just going to show up and do my thing. Cause Sam Jackson can do that. Sam Jackson is such a good call. He's like the whole movie. You can feel him being like, what the fuck is this?

45:02Griffin Newman:Why am I in this?

45:04Jason Mantzoukas:No reason for it. And it's like, and so I feel like that kind of like when he decides he's going to direct himself, I think that's when you get the bad Mark Wahlberg. Whereas like Sam Jackson, I think from stories I've heard, will decide to direct himself and - Always delivers. I have heard this as well.

45:22Griffin Newman:I have heard him say out loud at a bar, that motherfucker tried to read my lines to me. Oh my God. About a director.

45:29David Sims:The Wahlberg thing that is interesting to me is like we have covered many films in which an auteur tries to cast him against type to disastrous results, right? Like Truth About Charlie, The Happening, Planet of the Apes to a degree there was another one I was just thinking about but like Lovely Bones is obviously one of these that we haven't covered yet right and then there's like smart directors we will have to cover it we will cover it someday smart directors casting him intelligently right Departed is like a great

46:00Griffin Newman:but the whole magic of Departed is he doesn't want that role that's why he's so good at it you can feel him looking at Leo being like I could do what you're doing where you are.

46:10David Sims:Similar with fucking Boogie Nights. He's never stopped apologizing to Jesus for being in Boogie Nights. And it's so crazy. The fact that both he and Burt Reynolds do not want to have been in that movie is nuts. It's like a peak for both of them. What's fascinating about him is you're like, of course he's bad when directors misunderstand how to use him. And of course he's great when directors are really smart about a slightly unconventional way to use him and to harness his energy. The middle is the part that's confounding where you're like, hey, Mark Wahlberg, play a cop in a movie that costs$40 million.

46:41David Sims:He should be okay at this, right? Right.

46:43Jason Mantzoukas:And he just bottoms out. I mean, Spencer, well, I think the reason why I've had a hard time turning on this film is because of Spencer for Hire, which I was like, oh. What a miss. Because it seems to me like, what an opportunity. That could have been a great, fun franchise. Those books, those stories, hard-boiled, Pete Berg.

47:03Griffin Newman:Like, I was like, I'm going to love the Boston. But that was sort of the beginning of me being like, I think Pete Berg might just not be... I used to love the stuff he was doing. Yeah, when he was a Michael Bay acolyte.

47:13Jason Mantzoukas:Pete Berg seems like he likes to fly and LAPD flown helicopters and show off guns on Instagram. Not even just in a way like,

47:21David Sims:this is cool. When the announcement is Robert Downey Jr. is re-teaming with Shane Black to do an adaptation of a legendary noir character, for theaters, you're like, that's what I want everyone in that sentence to be doing. And then when it becomes Shane Black is doing a streaming crime movie with Mark Wahlberg it immediately feels like yeah I know what that is. I've seen that a ton of times even if it's the better version of that. Totally. I have also only heard good things from everyone who's seen it with the like qualifier of there is some stuff in it that feels like streaming bullshit. Is it as good as Kiss Bang Bang?

47:56No but is it is it unsuccessful? Not at all I had a blast. You see

48:01Jason Mantzoukas:the movie that I feel like I like that I'm now going to be embarrassed to admit it to you all, but because I feel like no one liked it, but it kind of scratched that same itch was, was it called The Instigators? It was like a Boston movie. Oh, the Damon. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

48:15Griffin Newman:That was something that bounced. It was called The Instigators. Is that a COVID movie? Did that movie get bounced off? No. It feels like it should have been. It's Casey Affleck, right?

48:24David Sims:It's like a 2024 Apple TV movie.

48:26Griffin Newman:And I remember being hyped for just like trashy fun and it kind of bounced off me in that streaming way of like, if you don't get me quick, I'm kind of - Right. I think I watched it on a plane.

48:35Jason Mantzoukas:I was like, oh, I'm okay with these. Maybe good on a plane. But I think what the difference is. It's a porch movie. It is a porch movie. It's trying for that. Well.

48:43David Sims:Thank you. Well. And because. Got it to my list. Because we have two guests in the studio today. I'm not introducing them. Paul is at Ben's usual desk. I know. I feel uncomfortable about it. Ben has assembled an ad hoc setup, including a mic being held together with duct tape. Oh, you had to mention that. No, because it has porch vibes in a good way.

49:01Jason Mantzoukas:That is a porch vibe. And you should have had your can taped to it as well. Like, I feel like a can cozy. Like, I feel like there should be like, I made this. I didn't have to buy a cup holder for$2 on Amazon.

49:13David Sims:He has like an ad hoc, like, producing engineer set up on the AV cart with a half built Lego Batman movie Joker mansion underneath it. And a duct tape mic.

49:25Griffin Newman:It's perfect. The microphone. It looks good. And I use the one that Sims broke. Okay. Well. And so I had to throw something to get. During one of his Sims temper tantrums, I was trashing the place. I said the word Juilliard and Sims ripped the microphone off.

49:42Jason Mantzoukas:You're like primetime Letterman after a bad show. Look at the pencils in the ceiling. So many people in the audience are like, who's Letterman? I was going to say... The guy from the nodding beard meme? I don't even know what that is. I'm learning so much about memes today. the but mark walberg is an actor that in a movie that may bounce off you feels like he's giving it his all like and i feel like that's the difference like yeah like i don't ever feel like mark walberg even when he's on entourage i'm gonna i'm gonna need you to watch the infinite wait oh no sorry sorry sorry i'm saying the wrong person oh matt damon sorry sorry matt damon sorry yes that's That's it.

50:24Jason Mantzoukas:Agreed. Sorry. Matt Damon is the guy who I feel like is the anti-Walberg because he is, it's always interesting. It's like, oh. Damon has always given everything 100%. Well, this is what you guys were saying on the True Grit episode is there are so many different categories of Damon and he is successful in every one of them. Damon as leading man, Damon as supporting character, Damon as cameo in a side character in a movie like Interstellar.

50:52Griffin Newman:Those are all successful. The one thing I'm very interested, because you look at Wahlberg's career of late, and it's this mix of stuff like Infinite, sort of straight to streaming. I know that was not intended for streaming COVID casualty. It would have been, it still would feel that way if it wasn't. What's the streaming work he's doing in theaters? Somewhat anonymous action stuff that he looks kind of bored in. Which is shocking because, let me be clear, it is an Antoine Fuqua movie that cost well over$100 million and was a blast to make. I had so much fun.

51:24Jason Mantzoukas:That's the panic fire. That movie got caught up in the panic fire of everything's streaming. It's just the only way. Everything goes. And thank God for Tom Cruise, who's the only one who was able to control. I mean, he was the only movie that did not go to streaming that was done. Do you remember that announcement?

51:41David Sims:It was like parallel with the Warner Brothers Project popcorn. Every movie is going to HBO Max day and date. Paramount announced that every theatrical release of theirs would be on Paramount Plus within two weeks. And they had forced Cruz's hand and made the announcement, or they were trying to force his hand. They publicly announced, and that will also apply to Top Gun Maverick. And he was like, it will not. Like, they had tried to get him to throw it on Paramount Plus in 2020. In 2021, he holds it to 22. And they were like, sure, it comes up Memorial Day. It will be on Paramount Plus by June.

52:16David Sims:and he was like, no, it will.

52:19Jason Mantzoukas:And I will say that he continues to hold it tight because even Mission Impossible, the final reckoning, he held that from VOD for way longer than any other film.

52:32David Sims:I spent five months waiting on my fucking steelbook pre-order.

52:35Jason Mantzoukas:I got that and I came the other day and I was like, oh, well. And you know what? I'll tell you this much. I was brought in. I was brought in to... David's having a great time. I had to host. I didn't have to. I was hosting a screening of the final reckoning. You had the privilege? I had the privilege. And I was shown footage of the movie, and I had to get my reaction to it. But they showed a documentary about that biplane scene.

52:57Griffin Newman:That shit is unimpeachable. Unbelievable. It's unbelievable. Two perfect sequences in that movie.

53:02Jason Mantzoukas:Never have seen it since it's not on the DVD, it's not on the steelbook. Fuck. Oh, the thing they showed you? The thing they showed me, I don't know why, because it's similar. What's on the DVD is similar, but the footage is different. and I was like, why is this not out there? Because it was one of truly the most thrilling things I've ever seen. It actually makes it look way more dangerous than the documentary does. David, will you please get back to what's on the computer?

53:28Griffin Newman:I wanted to finish my point about Warburg before we introduced this podcast. So half streaming garbage, half this sort of inspirational stuff he'll do like Family Plan, Arthur the King, the one where he's with the... Family Plan's more dumb family comedy.

53:41David Sims:It's not inspiration. Right, but there's a second one from it's inspiration. but I

53:44Jason Mantzoukas:closer to murder mystery but I mean where does the movie with Topher Grace and the airplane fall with that's

53:50David Sims:well that's inspirational because Mel Gibson is his lord and savior oh god

53:54Griffin Newman:but that was at least I mean that movie doesn't work but I guess that's sort of like I guess I want you doing this kind of stuff like playing big being a villain but he has a movie coming up called By All Means in I think 2026 directed by Elegance Bratton who made that movie The Inspection a very solid debut I thought, where he plays Gregory Scarpa, who is like a famous mafioso who went informant in the in like the 70s or 60s or whatever, with like Mark Wahlberg, Yaya, Abdul Mateen. Yes. Sounds good. You know, I mean, David, this just kind of sounds like something. Yeah, this is something where I'm like, OK, do you think this is the other thing about

54:38Jason Mantzoukas:him and what I've been thinking about with him? I know he's trying to launch that Vegas or that Nevada Warner Brothers or whatever that is

54:47Griffin Newman:Do you think he just had to avoid anything interesting while he was doing that? I think he's like, let's shit out as many of the, like, let's boom, boom, boom Just kind of keep the

54:54David Sims:boring Wahlberg pipeline And like raising money, working with more investment companies Building more capital

55:02Jason Mantzoukas:Some of them feel like real direct-to-DVD but then you can go, oh, but a year ago he did a$100 million movie But I feel like that studio has failed.

55:12David Sims:It seems like it. But it definitely felt like he was trying to start an entire side industry. Like he was trying to Tyler Perry it to some degree.

55:21Jason Mantzoukas:But it was also under the Warner Brothers banner. Or it was like it was a big studio banner. And they had moved things out there. And it actually, I thought in many respects, made sense. Like, all right, well, they have a tax credit. You have land. You can go shoot this thing. And I guess maybe at the end of the day, if he's the face of it, maybe it doesn't take off as much. I don't know. It's interesting because we have to remember it's not that long ago that he was considered one of the most successful producers in town. Boardwalk Empire, Entourage, that whole HBO run was like, oh, Mark Wahlberg and that company are producing on a huge level.

55:57Maybe he is someone to go in on it with.

56:00Griffin Newman:Introduce our podcast. I really was trying to wait for the hour, Mark. We have to stop talking about Mark Wahlberg. He's not in this movie Wait wait he's not in this movie He's definitely not in this movie Can we check the cast Yeah check He's not in it He's not in the girl who got rattled Introduce the podcast By the way can we talk about that Yeah We're both doing the same thing He also has a clothing brand Called Introduce the podcast

56:20Jason Mantzoukas:But by the way So guys So when I was at I went to the Celtics I went to the Celtics game The other night And he has a special branding deal With the Bruins And the Celtics Only Municipal clothes there And I was like And I looked at the quality of it I said that's a good call

56:36Griffin Newman:I do want to talk about this movie a little bit Yes, I worked on this movie a lot Well then you're wasting time I'm getting serious you're wasting time I'm not wasting time Because I'm going to have to leave and you're wasting time

56:47Jason Mantzoukas:Ben can you read what the logo

56:48Griffin Newman:You know when I have to leave, you know how my life works Let's introduce the show I am now officially really annoyed I'm going to be honest with you Not with you guys, with him With me? I said introduce the podcast I was really hoping to get to an hour, why? Let's go Now you're holding him back

57:07David Sims:Now you are Who am I holding back? This is Blank Check, the show about filmographies The directors Who are given a blank check And the movies that they make As a result Sometimes those movies hit And sometimes they don't Baby? That was basically fine I didn't know I was going to do it Who are our guests?

57:32Griffin Newman:This is just like that episode with Gethard where he has Jimmy Fallon. I think about it all the time. Do you remember that one?

57:37David Sims:What? You think we're blowing it on that level?

57:40Griffin Newman:No. No, not on that level where I'm like, we have great guests. And then it's like, we're having to introduce the show. We haven't introduced them. Don't make that word. Here's the thing. David, the show has been happening. The show has been great. Everyone's been loving it.

57:52Jason Mantzoukas:I do feel like this is the problem sometimes with podcasting. It's like you're not tuning in. You didn't tune in and go like, I'm confused. You know. It just showed up in your feed. You know what you're listening to

58:01Griffin Newman:before you hit play. You know who the guests are. it's true you do that always does make me laugh and we haven't introduced our guests and I'm like the app tells you it's been doing that

58:09David Sims:you're the one doing that right now well here's what I'm going to say the shift to video podcasts now I'm looking like when the Doughboys have a guest and the person is on camera sitting there waiting to be introduced I'm like introduce them now immediately I never thought about that change the format I think the first sense has to be our guest today immediately

58:29Jason Mantzoukas:just have a better shot Or do you have them wait? Do you do the talk show thing? No, just introduce them at the top. It's a formality. The show has been happening. Our show currently has been happening for an hour long. But this is the issue with video podcasts. It's a perfect 55 minutes. Podcasts should be podcasts. Video shows should be video shows. I agree. We should not have podcasts that are just... This is Blank Check. That's Griffin. That's David. There we go. This is Paul Scheer. And I'm Jason Manzugas. We are from... How did this get made? producer Ben producer Ben the Ben Ducer

59:09Griffin Newman:what's his going I mean I know we don't come up with one I don't know we don't really do this anymore

59:16David Sims:Ballad of Benster well that's are you sure how about Inside Lou and Ben Davis Inside Lou and Ben Davis well now it sounds like it's a Ben David Grubinski yeah it is It is. Okay, let's get into it. Buster Scratch. We'll get into it. This is a movie that, to me, I loved because, especially in this rewatch, because I was like, oh, this is not just a movie that is an homage to all of the Westerns and all of the great, the John Fords, you know, all that stuff. It's an homage to all of the Looney Tunes episodes that are the homage to all of those movies. Yep. There is so much cartoon Looney Tunes stuff in here.

59:55Especially the first movie.

59:56Jason Mantzoukas:Did you go to the Vista when they were playing? Oh, what was the movie where it's the, where there's a sex pillow and George Clooney's carrying it around all the time? I forget.

1:00:06Griffin Newman:I think it's Ryan Gosling is who you're talking about. It's Lars and the Real Girl? Lars and the Real Girl? No, no, no. Oh, you mean Burn After... No, no, no.

1:00:12Jason Mantzoukas:Yeah, it's a Coen Brothers movie. Burn After Reading, he builds a sex chair. Has a sex chair. Right, yeah. But they did a, I thought this was a cool one. They played it there. They played Looney Tunes cartoons before the screening.

1:00:25Griffin Newman:The Coen's it or just the theater? Oh, yeah, the Vista.

1:00:28Jason Mantzoukas:And I thought that was a really cool, it was a great way to kind of put your brains to it. There's a lot of cartoon shit in Theroux. Have they ever talked about the Looney Tunes? I wonder, because it felt to me like they were doing both here. They were both, you know, leaning into some of those great, big, classic Western things, but then also how we have processed them through cartoons. Oh, I mean, well, look, the opening scene is Bugs Bunny. Yes. I mean, absolutely. I would argue, and maybe you guys will disagree with me, that the one segment I don't particularly care for as much as the rest.

1:01:02Jason Mantzoukas:I wonder if it's the same for me. Is the second to last one, the one that is the longest. Oh, really?

1:01:09David Sims:I love it so much. Oh, that's so interesting. I find it profoundly affecting. Yeah. It's affecting. We'll get into it. It's affecting. I love that. The one that for me, I find that is the least interesting is the final one. I agree with that. That is my opinion. With the great Mark Lynn Baker. I see that is my favorite one Interesting What a good episode It's a good episode It's been great and it's only getting better

1:01:34Jason Mantzoukas:Well because the last one I think is like I don't know how else this could end Without it And I feel like it's the Coens The other ones are like they're doing riffs on it And then that one feels like they're really Infused I don't know it feels Different in tone and style

1:01:49Griffin Newman:I almost I want them to take another movie but I almost do want it to be the last thing they ever did which is them being like time to die I agree with you that it

1:02:00David Sims:does feel like an ultimate artist statement in an interesting way and obviously like I think this doesn't work as a movie where you watch it all the way through rather than separate you know episodes without that being the end because that's what it's all building up towards and it also does feel like this is what our body of work has been about what is everyone's favorite?

1:02:21Griffin Newman:Just say your favorite. Just say your favorite off the top of your head. Mine is the Tom Waits one. Because that I feel like is Ben's favorite too. I mean, beyond. It is far and away my favorite. Heavily features digging. Yeah. Digging. You know what? It's not just Waits. It's the shovel. I think Ben and I both enjoy unearthing things. Yes. Yeah. In many ways. The only difference is that Ben has buried it first. Right, right, right. And then I return to the genes.

1:02:46David Sims:Yes. Do you know that Ben was really recently stopped by the TSA on his honeymoon in Italy because he had a portable travel shovel?

1:02:58Griffin Newman:I was going to joke because he had a shovel. You didn't think you could buy a shovel in Italy? I just wanted to be prepared.

1:03:05Jason Mantzoukas:Why did he even need a shovel in Italy? Because he wants to bury some Italian jeans. He had some digging plans. Did you bring jeans as well or were you going to buy those there?

1:03:13Griffin Newman:I brought jeans and what ended up happening. Are you taking them out of the suitcase and gesturing with the shovel to them? Are you buying jeans or are you sourcing denim? What are you doing? No, I buy new Levi's jeans. Okay, and then I ordered through Italian Amazon a collapsible shovel as well as a ceramic container to put the jeans in. Oh, you mean kind of like Etruscan vibes? Like you were going to go full chimera? Ceramic container? Yeah. Okay. Like for organs and so forth. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. We got there. The container didn't arrive in time. Ah, sure. But now you had it.

1:03:57Griffin Newman:Me apologia. Now you had it sent to your hotel? Yes. Wow. So then I was like, well, it's a perfectly good shovel. It's still in the packaging. I love it. But they had a real problem with me. It's a weapon.

1:04:10David Sims:It's a weapon. And his wife. Through security. His wife texts me POV. my husband arguing with the TSA because they found a portable shovel in his back. And it's just, it's filmed for far enough away that you can't hear it. And it's been just gesticulating. Is it like one of those Karen videos

1:04:27Griffin Newman:you see on YouTube of what?

1:04:29David Sims:And she's like investigating a shovel

1:04:30Griffin Newman:and calling over her some people. Well, they kept being like, why do you have this? And I was like, I don't know how to explain it. Did they let you through with it ultimately?

1:04:39Jason Mantzoukas:No, they took it.

1:04:40Griffin Newman:They seized it.

1:04:40Jason Mantzoukas:By the way, this interaction is very much at the time I was in the Orlando airport and the woman in front of me had a handgun in her purse. Wow. An escalation. In Florida. In Florida, that's so weird. In her defense, she was going to Disney World. She had like a quilted purse. She did not look like a person that you would think would have a large handgun in her purse. Not a Derringer. Yeah, it was a big-ass automatic gun. And when she opened it, she was like, well, yeah, but it's just for me. It's my character. She was so -

1:05:13Griffin Newman:I'm not bringing anyone else a gun. This is my gun.

1:05:17Jason Mantzoukas:Yeah, the idea that it was like... I put in a Ziploc bag like they told me to. Yeah, she's like, I'm not going to use it for the plane. I'm just bringing this gun for me. No, no, this is a carry-on. This is my personal item.

1:05:27Griffin Newman:I assure you, this was not intended to be used on the plane.

1:05:30Jason Mantzoukas:I sat by, I was standing behind her watching it, and everyone was so calm. I was like, this is a gun. She was like, wow, you guys are really giving me a hard time about this gun. Give me the business with this handgun. Yeah, it was she had no like, oh, my God, I can't believe it.

1:05:44Griffin Newman:It's not like shoes or cigarettes where you're like, oh, when did they change the rules? It's like you were never really allowed to bring guns. Every once in a while, I'll accidentally arrive at the airport with like a Leatherman in my backpack. And I'm always like, oh, no, I'm so sorry. I am like, throw it away. Please throw it away. I'm, you know, the idea that I would ask that somebody would accidentally bring a gun. Right. Just as absentmindedly is hilarious.

1:06:08David Sims:And it feels like the way you were describing it, she was treating it as if, oh, I forgot to dump out my water bottle. Exactly.

1:06:14Jason Mantzoukas:And she was so. This is embarrassing. No, no remorse. And also like, but it doesn't have bullets in it. Right.

1:06:22David Sims:Like, you really can't just let me take the water bottle on the plane.

1:06:26Jason Mantzoukas:It was it was great. So they took the shovel from you.

1:06:30Griffin Newman:OK, so digging. Oh, yeah. What is your favorite?

1:06:34Jason Mantzoukas:Well, I mean, and I don't want to, I don't want to shirk it here, but I was gonna say that I really do believe the bookends of it are my two favorites. Okay.

1:06:41David Sims:Buster's my favorite.

1:06:42Jason Mantzoukas:Yeah, because I think that like that opening, like I feel like it encapsulates in many respects everything I love about the Coens in those two.

1:06:50Griffin Newman:Buster Scruggs might be the only one where I have just the tinge of like, this is perfect as a, as a sketch. It's perfect. I, I, I almost just want like, give me, I want more of it. Like it's the only way. Everything else I'm like, this is ideal.

1:07:04Jason Mantzoukas:But I think that that's actually the reason why for me it works because you're probably right. Because I think that like the minute you go, oh, it could have been a second shorter. Like you always want to leave people wanting more, especially with a comedy thing.

1:07:18David Sims:I feel like, you know, the only one though, that feels like it leaves me wanting more because you're like, man, you could do so many fucking things with this character.

1:07:25Griffin Newman:You want to come back to see exactly to see him locked in like that. And he's always good. I remind you Especially when he was Controlling the actions Of Red Hulk Our president Oh we love that Our president Villainous leader

1:07:37David Sims:I remind you I gave him Do you think he has The iPad The action figure Has the iPad They didn't make one No no why not Why not Are we talking about The thinker The villainous leader Leader I'm sorry the leader The thinker of course Is Peter Capaldi Thank you The suicide squad Megan the suicide squad But um No This is the thing I was sending David Many texts about this That he loved And responded to Really quickly About the toy The multiple reshoots of Captain America.

1:08:04Jason Mantzoukas:Jean-Carlo Esposito completely at it. And you can tell because when they have their conversation, they walk into a dark cave. It's like, come in here. All right, sure.

1:08:15David Sims:It's a Dustin Hoffman Little Fokker's thing where he keeps popping up around a corner and going, I need to talk to you about something, but far away from any other principal actor. Come on over here, come on. And then you can go back to the scene you were just in. Can I meet me on reshoot here?

1:08:29Jason Mantzoukas:It is so funny when you look at those scenes, like what's going on in the background, where they have just come from. I love it all.

1:08:37David Sims:All of the merch of Tim Blake Nelson as the leader is an entirely different design than what's in the movie. Really? Because they shot the entire film one time with an entirely different look for the character and then reshot every second of his footage. Wow. We got to talk to Jesse Falcon about that. That's amazing. You should talk to Jesse Falcon. Oh, I know. You should definitely talk to him about that. Didn't get a Marvel legend, but like the Funko Pop, they're like t-shirts. Wow. Where it's him with like little glasses and like natty combed hair. Oh, wow. And he's like dressed like a college professor versus his like zombie.

1:09:11David Sims:With the long-headed hair. Right, right. Instead of the like bumpy brain, it's a tall head. I feel like they, I feel like. Which is the comics. The comics.

1:09:18Jason Mantzoukas:It's going for the original comics. It's a bummer. It's a bummer because I feel like, you know.

1:09:23Griffin Newman:I just feel like Red Hulk had a great domestic agenda and he didn't get to execute it.

1:09:27Jason Mantzoukas:And now he's trapped in that island. and the hard thing for red hulk is because of the shutdown he's not getting any of his policies he's also not getting his pills no i got those pills you gotta get those pills give me that by the way i was so upset my so my son had never seen a marvel movie uh my son never had seen a marvel movie we went to comic-con this year yeah and i met your kids at comic-con oh yeah exactly yes yeah and so we were and so there was this moment where we got home like what what is a Yeah, like, how old is your son? 11, and the other one's nine.

1:10:01David Sims:And also, let's call out the last time you were on the show for Last Action Hero. You talked about that your sons have always been pretty disinterested in movies. Yes. And that was one of the first movies they liked. Yes.

1:10:12Jason Mantzoukas:And Last Action Hero is a big, we've now been big movie now. So it's been working really good for us. But I watched every, I did a curated selection of it because they really wanted to watch Endgame. And I was like, we can't start there. Let's go. and I created a crash course to get us to endgame and then we went backwards, but they kept on going, when can we see the Red Hulk? When can we see the Red Hulk? Oh boy. And this is not a bit, this is not a joke. And I was like, we were not gonna see that one just yet. We're gonna do like eight Green Hulks before he gets red, come on. But they think Red Hulk is the fireworks factory.

1:10:44Jason Mantzoukas:They were ready for Red Hulk. And so I was like, guys, we can't. And I had been watching everyone with them and I came home one day, I had done a show and they come home and they're like, we watch Red Hulk. and I was like at first it was the only one they watched without me and I had already seen it and I was like what did you think and it was funny because it's the first time they were disappointed about

1:11:03Griffin Newman:and it was I remember when you're 10 or 11 you're like it wasn't quite the five star experience every film in my life has been this is the first bad movie I've ever seen I did detect slight cracks is the foundation are movies allowed to be bad?

1:11:19Jason Mantzoukas:it's a funny moment that you have when you realize that there's a and they come to me all the time they go like can we watch i go no well why not i don't think you'll like it but and it's like well is it too adult like it's not too adult it's just not good yeah yeah and it's hard to like explain why right when they see it they're all right because right because you're

1:11:39Griffin Newman:like yeah i don't know captain america fights red hulk in it like and you're like well that

1:11:42David Sims:sounds good and you're like yeah it does sound good i could ever imagine um salute i i was going to say, you may remember, I gave Tim Blake Nelson my best supporting actor award in our Blankies episode this year for this movie. For Buster Scruggs. You loved him in the movie so much. This segment is so my sensibility. I did see this in the very brief theatrical release.

1:12:05Griffin Newman:It was screened for me, I think.

1:12:08David Sims:Some of the biggest laughs I've ever had in a theater come from this segment, which is just so my fucking bullseye. It's so you. It's so me. It's so cartoons. It's him. It's his performance. It's the song, all the physicality of the tables. And then you've got Clancy Brown. The dust coming off of him in the perfect silhouette.

1:12:27Jason Mantzoukas:I mean, that is the most cartoon thing of all time. The tone of the movie is established when during this segment, in the very beginning, as he's riding the horse and playing guitar, there's a shot from inside the guitar out. Yeah. You are looking from inside the guitar out through the strings. The sound is muffled. And I'm like, oh, this is what they're doing. They're having fun. This is fun and silly. And I think the thing, when I watched it again, and I hadn't watched it in a long time, I was like, oh, but this character comes back. Yeah, this is like, he's also the titular.

1:12:59Griffin Newman:Right, you're right. And he does seem otherworldly, obviously. And you're like, maybe he finds a way to write.

1:13:04Jason Mantzoukas:Or do you go backwards and you see him before? Or does every character have an interaction with this guy? Because that's a movie too, right? But no. And I think that that's why I also feel what you're saying. like I want more of it. Like, I think the movie might even feel better if there was a little bit. Like, maybe if those characters come into that town where he gets killed, I mean, that doesn't quite work. It is the magic though

1:13:29David Sims:where like every other segment is a complete thought that ends at the exact point it has to end to because there is so much a punchline and even the segments that are more dramatic do kind of have an inherent sketch comedy game within them. Right? It's all about building this up and knocking it down and getting to that surprising like but inevitable conclusion and his is the one where you're like you could do seven more sketches with this guy that would all be satisfying but also

1:13:55Griffin Newman:Mortal Remains right has Saul Rubinick great Saul Rubinick playing a Frenchman and then Krumholtz is in the Ballad of Buster Scruggs as a Frenchman this is their second crummiest film I would say it is I think Kelsey's just still there that's the crummiest and I had that I heard the brief like when I was rewatching I was like does Krumholtz come back because when I saw him I was like it's a similar look is and like then I started thinking like what if mortal remains like it's like there was a character in each of them and they're all in the carriage that's fun and then I watched it I was like right but that's not what it is at all wouldn't that be cool but wouldn't that be cool but the Coen's also are I think when you say to them wouldn't that be cool they're like oh I don't

1:14:31Jason Mantzoukas:know maybe we did something else and I think that the movies that we have watched that are similar and I'm gonna this is a very big thing I'm painting here but like a Kentucky Fried movie or like Amazon Women on the Moon, which I was able to buy in the UK. Congratulations. Yeah. Blu-ray or DVD? Blu-ray. Wow. But the format of these styles, the style of film where it's shorts, there always is a little bit of a through line. A little bit. Right.

1:14:57Griffin Newman:What's making this all hang together? Absolutely.

1:14:59Jason Mantzoukas:And this is just... The milieu. The West. The milieu. The West. Frontier. The themes of going West and a new started or whatever. And even though it's the, but the book is, is the book The Ballad of, but the book, it's based on two different stories.

1:15:15David Sims:And you're saying the physical book in the book. Two of the six stories are adaptations. Yes. Four of them are original.

1:15:22Griffin Newman:Yeah. You know what? I should open the dossier because I actually think there are lots of questions. Crack it. I don't know the total. David, I'm begging you to get to the dossier. David.

1:15:31Jason Mantzoukas:It's an hour and 12 minutes. David, go to the dossier. JJ worked on it.

1:15:35Griffin Newman:Please start getting the podcast in motion. The Coens, of course, had made short films before. A little bit. Joel made a short film called Soundings in NYU Film School. Obviously, they did the Tuileries section of Paris Jatame, which is very charming and funny. The Buscemi segment. Teach his own cinema. And then they did the World Cinema segment next to his own cinema

1:15:52David Sims:with Brolin, right? Tell him I like the Nuri Bilga silent. That's his bit at the end of the movie.

1:15:58Griffin Newman:Oh, yeah, right, right, right. It's Cowboy wanders

1:16:00David Sims:into an art house theater and he really likes Climates. The Nuri Bilga silent movie. And he like tips his cowboy hat and goes, tell him I liked it.

1:16:08Griffin Newman:seen this it's really great yeah it's really trisha cook uh co-directed a short called don't mess with texas where ethan was someone of anyway but in the early 2000s the cohen start writing something called the ballad of buster scruggs but they don't intend it and intend it maybe right away to be a short but they realize like you know this is like an interesting lark maybe

1:16:27David Sims:it could begin to be a collection they also they tell tim blake like we're writing this for you this is this fun idea we're toying around with.

1:16:35Griffin Newman:You put a movie cowboy in a kind of more real,

1:16:40David Sims:dangerous Western milieu. Is there anybody who, and I mean, I think he has said this outright. Is there anybody who has had their career just astronomically catapulted forward than the Coens and Tim Blake Nelson?

1:16:53Griffin Newman:It is so interesting that they look at him and they're like, we know what to do with you. And that's all he needed. It's all of it. It's from Oh Brother to this guy. Like, it's so varied.

1:17:03David Sims:I mean, here are the things that are craziest. One, that they actually don't work together at all between O Brother and this. Right. And in your mind, you're like, he became a staple.

1:17:12Griffin Newman:Yeah, in your mind, you're like, he's Steven Root. He's in Six of These Things.

1:17:15Jason Mantzoukas:But the thing about him, too, is I think he also is exploding in a lot of movies that are odd that for the most, for the eye test for most people are like, oh, that was a Coen Brothers.

1:17:24David Sims:Right. It wasn't. But it feels like he's in those. Or he gave a performance in a movie that felt like it could have been a Coen's performance in a more straight film

1:17:32Jason Mantzoukas:or whatever it is. Yeah, like he's doing a lot of that weird, not weird work, but just a lot of that you just associate him with that.

1:17:38David Sims:But also to be a guy who, I'm sorry, David, went to Juilliard, is classically trained.

1:17:44Griffin Newman:We've talked about Tim, I guess just Neo Brother.

1:17:47David Sims:But then like, you know, was like doing character actor stuff, doing comedy stuff and was sort of like, I think I'm more of a writer and director. That's my main focus. I become friends with Joel Cohen through that. Then he offers me this part. I'm like, I don't really act that much anymore. this is the third lead of the movie should I do this he does it he never stops working right it's not even he has had peaks and valleys no he's got a face on everyone is like we know to cast this guy forever he will be in six things a year so back to the dusty

1:18:16Griffin Newman:because well we can talk about you know that so they've done short films well they've done short films they write buster scruggs they start to just write other stuff it all goes in a drawer at one point HBO who's the only other possible contender for I think making something like this is like we do an anthology like that makes some sense they sort of talk about it it never goes anywhere um and ethan says basically at some point they were like we just need to write like one more and it'll be a feature right like they had maybe four or five they were like let's just do it the only when you say buster scruggs are they writing buster first they do buster scruggs

1:18:52Jason Mantzoukas:the first but i mean but oh but always as a story not as like we're gonna write a buster scruggs feature. Exactly. I think they

1:18:59Griffin Newman:realize like, no, it's a little trifle and they just keep adding trifles to their drawer. But they tell him about it in like the early 2000s

1:19:05David Sims:and then they're like, we don't really know what to do with this. We have this thing we wrote for you. We don't really know where this would fit into it. They love westerns.

1:19:11Griffin Newman:Yeah. And so they're kind of, as they put it, rummaging around in the western genre where they're like, well, we never did a stagecoach movie. We never did a wagon train movie. Like these are all, right, Buster Scruggs is like, it's about dueling, right? Like the gold miner thing, the stagecoach thing, it all makes sense as like these are things westerns would would subgenres of the golden age.

1:19:32David Sims:They have ostensibly done two feature length westerns at this point, yet both of them are unconventional in their own ways that there are a lot of hallmarks they have not hit at all.

1:19:39Griffin Newman:They write the mortal remains, the final piece, as a way of unifying when they look at all their stories. They're like, what is the common theme? And they are like, the common theme of this is death.

1:19:49David Sims:Death comes for us all.

1:19:50Griffin Newman:Exactly. Like, and it's like it may be out of the ordinary or it might just kind of be like, Like, what can you do? Like, you're going to, you know, but like that is right. That is the common theme. So they write that.

1:19:58David Sims:You could also zoom out and argue that is the common theme of their body of work. The common theme of much art, obviously.

1:20:05Jason Mantzoukas:Well, that's what I was going to say. The first and last chapter to me represent the full scope of their career, which is like death, but cartoon silliness and then like poetic sort of seriousness. And sort of like the brutality and beauty. And it's really well. I mean, I think this movie does capture a lot of what they do in very short segments.

1:20:26David Sims:You know, I think the primary concern of like their careers and their body of work is this is the only guarantee. And what do you do with that knowledge? Right. Yeah. That most of their stories are animated by how do people process the fact that that is the inevitable end goal? How do people what are they willing to do in order to protect their lives? the cruelty of taking away other people's lives like all of this the negotiation i i really wish

1:20:56Jason Mantzoukas:like i also feel like there's no like their movies are more not more modern but i feel like they there's less lying here like people are much more bald here i feel like it's like in this film yeah and i feel like they kind of man you're obsessed with bald in movies i mean i think it's great and you're talking about greek actors talking about bald actors um but i do think I love it. Greek.

1:21:17Griffin Newman:Greek as hell. Greek as hell. We left him off the list. Well, he is dead. That's not the point. I mean, he can't ship off to the Odyssey tomorrow. I believe he was Jennifer Aniston's godfather. He was. Is that right? John Aniston is the dad. I do have his vinyl.

1:21:32Jason Mantzoukas:His vinyl is great. His singing vinyl is... I can imagine that guy had some pipes. He does a little William Shatner-esque. But I feel like what's fun about this is these people are who they say they are and what they... No one's like, hiding that much. And I feel like a lot of Coen Brothers movies is about manipulation or covering.

1:21:50David Sims:But I also think that's like a principle of the dramatic idea of the Western, right? It is why it is a genre that people are still so obsessed with is it's this notion of like white hats and black hats and men meeting in a town square and looking each other in the eye and saying the thing and these moral lines, you know, this sort of like this this midpoint culturally between like we built just enough of a society that we're starting to establish rules and structures and idea of how a town works and what jobs are, you know, and dressing it up. And yet things are settled by guys shooting each other in the head.

1:22:27David Sims:Right. You know that it's this exact midpoint in like the human evolution.

1:22:32Griffin Newman:Right. So Westerns getting away from barbarian.

1:22:35David Sims:To what extent has civilization

1:22:36Jason Mantzoukas:arrive and then what civilization sort of and what they take they and then where it manipulates to is people like oh i can circumvent the civilization i can manipulate it i can gain get money from it you know like what i feel like as part of it is and zoe kazan has that line when her brother has died and they say do you want to go back or do you want to move forward and she said there is no back there is only moving forward and that's everybody in this movie everybody in life is marching forward towards certain death. It's just happening so much sooner in this movie because circumstances are brutal.

1:23:11And these things have to be 15 minutes long?

1:23:13David Sims:They basically, all of them average between 15 and 20 other than the Kazan, which is about 35. Right. The rattled is the sort of centerpiece.

1:23:23Jason Mantzoukas:And that's why I feel like that, why I don't like it as much as the others is because I think it does break the structure too late in the film because it's right at the... That is the exact thing I like about it. Really?

1:23:36Griffin Newman:I can see Griffin's side of it. I agree with you, Paul, that I am kind of like, this is like a few too many beats and I've been with this movie for a while. You know, I don't know. I don't know. I want to know why you guys like it eventually. Okay. They take this project once they're sort of like, okay, we put this all together to Annapurna, as we said. Annapurna sells it to Netflix, pretty quickly, according to the Cones. And it is a mistake of trade reporting that it's reported as a series. And I think it's partly that it was still so new for these movies to be on Netflix. And it's announced as this anthology of stories that I think, you know, Variety et al are just kind of like, oh, is it like a television miniseries?

1:24:18Griffin Newman:Like, is that so hot right now?

1:24:19Jason Mantzoukas:No filmmaker would be going with a film to Netflix at this point. You know, like, right? Well, also part of it, I mean, kind of. We've got House of Cards. We've got Fincher. But no filmmaker would come with a film. I see what you're saying.

1:24:33David Sims:It felt like Netflix was doing something similar to Annapurna, which was, what's the thing you can't get made anywhere else? And when Netflix made them, a lot of times you were like, oh, there's a reason no one else made this. This script had problems. Things like Duncan Jones' Mute, right? Where you were like, oh, these development hell movies are now going to Netflix as a salvation versus the ones that were good but were challenging. It felt like Annapurna was financing. and then getting theatrical distribution for it.

1:25:00Griffin Newman:And this is this exact... And I think it was more doing the Scott Rudin thing of like, what's the thing you've been trying to make? We can figure out how to make it for you. If cinema for adults has kind of died, then we'll put up the money for it.

1:25:09Jason Mantzoukas:But it's kind of also like movies that can't have good trailers, right? You can't sell. Right, movies that would struggle

1:25:15Griffin Newman:with an opening weekend expectation or whatever.

1:25:17Jason Mantzoukas:Right, so here you just slap it in Netflix, you open up your app and then you're like, it's there, I'm watching it.

1:25:23David Sims:But they're absolutely kind of riding high for going to Netflix at this point. A lot of the people who are going to Netflix are like coming off of a shaky period. I guess Irishman's the year after this, which is another big turning point of like, oh, fuck, here's this movie that the studios were too scared to make. Right. And they're rolling out the carpet for Scorsese.

1:25:43Griffin Newman:And Irishman, the Scorsese, the thing about Irishman and Flower Moon is like they are very long. And very expensive. And they were expensive to make. They probably still would have made decent amounts of money. But they're long and expensive. A decent amount in theaters.

1:25:56Jason Mantzoukas:I think I would have loved to have seen the Coens do Flower Moon. That story is a Coen. Like that to me is like,

1:26:02David Sims:and it drives me.

1:26:04Jason Mantzoukas:I love Scorsese, obviously, but that I would love to have seen the humor in that more because that's a movie where you're talking about a lot of this kind of just manipulation. No, for sure.

1:26:14Griffin Newman:There's a way to make it more. This is a quote from Joel. I like this about television TV thing about TV series. I don't understand. I think it's hard for both of us to get our minds around is feature films have a beginning, a middle, and an end. Open-ended stories have a beginning, a middle, and then they're beaten to death until they're exhausted and they die. I do think that's a funny way to talk about really successful television. Because only a couple shows truly got to end on their own terms. Well, usually if you're successful, it's like, yay, our show rocks! You're a victim of your own success.

1:26:44Griffin Newman:We're still going, and it's like, no! You're done!

1:26:47Jason Mantzoukas:Except for the UK model, which was like, yeah.

1:26:50David Sims:Right, most often shows end. The semester will never end. Most often shows end unresolved because they didn't get where they wanted to and they were taken away too soon, or they're victims of their own success that are stretched out far past the natural ending point of the story.

1:27:04Griffin Newman:The Coens also say, they are literal about this, they're like, no studio would have financed this film. It's like, hey, why'd you go to streaming? And they're like, why do you think? Nobody's going to make this movie. This is not a commercial movie. And it's an expensive movie. And we see how the industry is changing and they only want to make franchise movies. And like, you know, Isn't it expensive because it's period? Yeah, I think this movie was like a huge pain in the ass to make because this is the one where Ethan's like, I am really exhausted. It is the reason, yes,

1:27:31David Sims:the split up in quotes between the two of them is at the end of this, Ethan's like, I'm so fucking wiped out, I don't want to make another movie. And Joel goes, I guess if you don't want to do it, can I do stuff solo? Oh, okay. And then Ethan ends up getting this second wind and deciding that he wants to make very, very serious, complicated lesbian genre. Society. That's right. For society companies. But he, when it was sort of talked about and people were like, are they talking around a blowup that happened between the two of them? Was there a falling out? Is there an illness? Is it an industry thing?

1:28:03David Sims:Whatever it was. The line was always Ethan saying, we made too many Westerns in a row. That No Country was tough. Some films in between. True Grit was really tough. Some films. And then this, he basically was like, it was an idiotic ambition on our part. it felt like making six complete movies. Even though they were short, it felt like six separate productions in a row. The scope of them is massive.

1:28:29Griffin Newman:Right. They're not, they don't feel small. Not at all. I mean, maybe in cast, but that's about it.

1:28:34David Sims:Almost all exteriors. Right. He was like, it was just months on uncovered sets. Every couple of weeks, it would basically reset with a new cast. We'd have to rethink visually the new story. So many of these people are old. Like Tom Waits. I was watching Tom Wake. Did he look old to you? Do so much in this. I was like, wow. He must have been exhausted. No, and I think Ethan even said, like, that much time outdoors uncovered sets, it wouldn't have been a problem when we were young. Yeah. But we got ourselves out there, and even just being, like, five years older than they were when they made True Grit, or more, seven, you know?

1:29:13David Sims:And that's already a couple years past. They were, like, the additional 10 years between when we started making Westerns and this one. We were just like, I can't handle this. Yeah.

1:29:27David!

1:29:28David Sims:Yeah? If I'm being honest. What? Don't lie. I'm the most radically honest person in America. It's time for radical honesty. Okay, honesty is on the table. Sometimes it is 1 p.m. Sure. And all I've had is coffee. Uh-oh. No breakfast, no lunch, just caffeine. And whatever movie I'm three rewatches deep on. That's actually... That sounds like you. Yeah. I can't believe that's in the ad copy. A little tough on the tummy. Lately, I've been keeping Huel around to stop myself from doing exactly that. Huel is sponsoring the podcast. Tell me of Huel. Well, here's what Huel saves me. It saves me time on recording days when we're deep in a director's filmography.

1:30:03David Sims:This is customized ad copy. It's, well, yeah. And that's why you're right on time to every single episode.

1:30:07Griffin Newman:Of course, a screening marathon where you forget to eat. No, totally. Like, I think this is an actually relatable condition of like, oh, no, I haven't eaten enough today. Like, you know, I've had a slow morning. Right. I've got something. I've got a busy afternoon.

1:30:21David Sims:Huel has the Black Edition ready to drink. It is a bottle that is just a meal inside that bottle. I got chocolate peanut butter. It tastes good. It just tastes like a nice little milkshake.

1:30:33Griffin Newman:Whoa, it's got 35 grams of protein, seven grams of fiber, 27 essential vitamins and minerals and minerals. You're actually impressed by that rundown. That's a lot of protein. That's like an Ocean's Eleven. That's a hefty amount of protein. Style line up. And then they got the powder, the black edition powder, which is the customizable hat. That's 40 grams of protein, same complete nutrition, mixed with water or milk. No artificial sweeteners, colors, or flavors. Yes. It's gluten free. My wife is gluten free. Well, that's nice to know. Good for her.

1:31:02David Sims:No, in all honesty, I often try to watch the movie right before the episode because my brain cannot retain anything. And then I rush over here and I'm like, all I've had is four cups of coffee and zero food. And it's nice to just shake a Huel down it. and just feel vaguely like a normal person. It's under$5 a meal for the RTD.

1:31:23Griffin Newman:You know, ready to drink. Of course.

1:31:25David Sims:There's also, you know, there's a powder for when you're home and you want to control the texture, whether you want to just shake that up with water or mix it into something else. Right. But the RTD, you can just grab one of those bad boys when you're sprinting out the door to a record on time.

1:31:39Griffin Newman:No, wait. How do you spell it? It's H-E-W-E-L. No, you fools. No. It's H-U-E-L. Okay? Here is a limited time offer. Stop running a nothing but coffee. Get Huel today with my exclusive offer of 15 % off online with my code check at Huel.com slash check. It's H-U-E-L dot com slash check. New customers only. Thank you to Huel for partnering and supporting our show. Wow.

1:32:06David Sims:If you're the kind of person who forgets to eat until you're staring down a six movie day, this is the fix. And a six movie day, that is impressive. And our hats are off to you. Very good.

1:33:13David Sims:us. singing was part of his training at Juilliard. But he credits his son. He has a really good WTF episode. Oh, okay. Where he credits his son, where he was just like this incredible bonding exercise of me being able to go to my son, who was a guitar prodigy, and be like, I'm hiring you to spend the next six months to teach me how to do all of this. And they got very close doing it.

1:33:35Griffin Newman:Can I give you Zoe Kazan's incredible take on this movie? And she obviously, I mean, like with all these actors, it's like, hey, why'd you do it? She's like, I don't know, it's a Coen Brothers movie. Like, what am I going to not do it? she says she thinks the whole thing is all bound together in a really clever way each chapter prepares you for the next the first one is like it's going to be a good time people will die but it's going to be fun by the third one that expectation has been reversed it's like amusement comes with a price you know entertainment is not easy and like you've watched the deaths of all these protagonists right Tom Waits reverses the pattern a little a bit there's hope and then Gal Who Gets Rattled is the opposite where you're Like, you're in it.

1:34:13Griffin Newman:You're invested the most. It has the most crushing ending. And then the final one is just this dream logic of, like, you know, this museum of death. What comes next? We'll get into it more, but that's my quote. She's fucking smart. Everyone who has worked with her says that as well. Yeah. And I think that... She and I worked together on the Nia Vardalos movie, I Hate Valentine's Day. Jason, you're in that? Oh, don't you worry, I am. Oh, do you go on date with her?

1:34:41David Sims:I was so worried. do you go on a date with her and she's like i hate no no um nia vardalos is uh falling in love with john corbett once again um and they're four movies together yes she has a kind of regular lunch group of friends you're one of the kind of downloads with and it's me zoe drach and judah

1:35:04Griffin Newman:friedlander guys that's all the same age yes crazy the wrecking crew the wrecking crew aka The Wrecking Crew. That movie is not perfect. It is. It is. David, wait a second. You better be ready to back up. It is very gracious of you, David. It is not perfect, but I had the most wonderful time making it. It sounds like a good crew. Everybody was dynamite. And it was maybe one of the very first movies I was ever in in a meaningful way, like multiple scenes. That's a long time ago.

1:35:33Jason Mantzoukas:You know? Oh, yeah. I will also say that when you just said something about, not about Valentine's Day, but the dossier, coming up and saying like that she read all the pieces, which again, these are two things that surprised me. A, that Netflix didn't approach them. And then B, that they're giving the full script out to everyone because it feels to me, it's like, oh, here's the piece we want you to do. Don't worry about the rest. It's not important.

1:35:53David Sims:The weird misreporting about this film and the assumption that it was a TV show was also that like in some of the trade announcements, they said that it was a project under Anna Perna's new television division. And also because Netflix is doing so much playing with format stuff. I have heard conspiracy theories in the past that there was a little bit of deliberate trickery in knowing that Netflix would be more willing to sign off on this, even though their intention was always to make it a movie. That is pure conjecture. But they have been very upfront. Everyone who works on this movie is very upfront that it was like, the script is a finished thing.

1:36:29David Sims:It is in this order. And everyone reads it from beginning to end.

1:36:32Jason Mantzoukas:And this is, you know, when I talked to Quentin Tarantino, he talked publicly on the radio. So I'm not, I'm not a, not Radio Bunz podcast. He was saying that they kind of tricked Harvey into Kill Bill, you know, to kind of maneuver how they wanted it to be released too. So I think that that's just part of good producing. It's good that someone was able to trick Harvey after Harvey tricked so many people. Yeah, a hundred percent.

1:36:58Griffin Newman:Is he okay? What's up with him? You're saying mostly just - Haven't heard from him in a minute.

1:37:02David Sims:You're saying mostly just the editing room, right?

1:37:04Jason Mantzoukas:Yeah, yeah.

1:37:04David Sims:His notorious editing re-battled.

1:37:06Jason Mantzoukas:But I do feel like that, like I think that that's all fair play because it's sort of like, just get it made. Go get the thing. Because it doesn't make a difference for Netflix, ultimately, I don't think.

1:37:15David Sims:No, no. And they've been very clear that it was like, this is always what we want it to be and that's what it was. Right. And whether it was just misreporting because they tend to keep the lid on very tight while they're working on stuff. So there's a lot of speculation that leads to like fact, theorizing getting printed as fact. or if that was part of their kind of clever.

1:37:37Jason Mantzoukas:Well, you blew my mind when you said that he wasn't sick for the breakup. I thought whatever I read was that he was sick and then that was...

1:37:43David Sims:I'm really fucking tired and I need time to recharge and maybe I'll come back to it later. I get it.

1:37:47Griffin Newman:Yeah. It was a pain to make. They shot it in Nebraska, Colorado, New Mexico, almost all on location except for the final segment, which was shot on a stage, obviously mostly in its carriage.

1:37:59Jason Mantzoukas:Well, that also... It was a huge pain in the ass. The first sequence is in the very famous... I've shot there multiple times, the famous Old West town that's standing in, right outside of Los Angeles. Right. And that you would see Deadwood and, yeah, everything in. Don't they,

1:38:13David Sims:is it in that segment where they refer to Val Verde in this movie, which is like... Do they really? Yeah, which is the famous kind of shared fake... The like fake South American country. The fake South American country that like...

1:38:24Griffin Newman:It's in Commando. What's the guy, the writer who wrote all those movies? Stephen D'Souza. Thank you, it's D'Souza. It's a D'Souza ref. It is. I don't actually know if it is.

1:38:32David Sims:Yeah. But Val Verde is invoked at some point in this film. There is this like owning of the kind of like collective monomyth of the American West via movies. Right. Well, also not for nothing. The fact that in that opening segment, Tim Blake Nelson is killed by Seth Bullock. Tim Oliphant. Right. You know, putting a Deadwood actor in there, putting like there's something really wonderful about that.

1:38:57Jason Mantzoukas:I also thought that that opening sequence is movie Old West. He's in the white cowboy outfit. It's like it's very everything else is much more grounded in a more realistic way. The juxtaposition of him and Clancy Brown is incredible.

1:39:13David Sims:It's also like he's like a 40s movie cowboy and he is killed by like a 60s movie cowboy. Both of them are fictionalized, heightened, stylized version of phony cowboys existing in a milieu of like, these are what the actual guys were like. This is basically the Coen's playing with toys. Yeah. This first one, absolutely. I mean, you're kind of identifying why I love this one.

1:39:35Griffin Newman:But like the joke of like, okay, or the puzzle of like, you're in the saloon, you're not allowed a weapon. How do you kill somebody? Like, it's fun. What if Seth Bullock, but also Roy Rogers? but it's also right what Griffin is saying of kind of like now your time has come buster like you're gonna you're gonna get knocked off the board

1:39:55David Sims:the trick shots

1:39:59Griffin Newman:the cheerful singing and all that this is officially uncool and it happens but I loved the sequence where he kills Surly Joe he's singing the Surly Joe song and dancing and everyone's getting on board for it but they keep cutting back to Surly Joe's brother coming in and finding the Robinsons sketch. What the fuck? Who did this? He's dead. That sequence is so funny.

1:40:25David Sims:Every single line of dialogue he has is funny to me. It is funny in the way it's written. You can just imagine the Coens giggling to themselves about like, imagine Tim saying this. There are moments of like pure like elation that I have in this segment. I mean, his killing of Clancy Brown is truly, I know I've been using a lot of hyperbole across the series because I love the cohen so much that is amongst the hardest I've ever laughed in a theater it's so good yes I lost my fucking mind it's so funny I saw this at the IFC with our friend J.D. Amato in like one of the five basically unadvertised days it was playing and there was almost no one else in the theater outside of a recently cancelled Louis C.K.

1:41:04David Sims:oh wow it was like a very odd experience we walk in we're like that's him right and then we're just laughing at anything he laughed a lot oh yeah He liked it a lot. You're talking about the author, right?

1:41:15Griffin Newman:The novelist. It would be funny if he kicked the board and made him shoot himself once. But then he does it then six times. One time is funny.

1:41:25David Sims:Six times is the funniest thing I've ever seen.

1:41:28Jason Mantzoukas:I feel like the image I see when I look at him in this is Bugs Bunny with the guns on his holster. I feel this image. Everything. If you told me this was literally shot for shot of Warner Brothers, Looney Tunes, cartoon epic. Yep, 100%.

1:41:41David Sims:And I even think the dust silhouette and all these things of like establishing cartoon logic, the way at the end when he dies, he becomes an angel with little wings and a harp. Yeah, that's straight Looney Tunes.

1:41:53Griffin Newman:Oscar nominated song? Yes. He sings an Oscar nominated song when a cowboy trades his purse for wings. Well, he performs it in the movie. I can't remember. I think Gillian Welch did it on stage at the Oscar. It's mostly the other guys singing it, but I believe Gillian Welch did it. Oh, David Rawlings? David Rawlings is the idea.

1:42:07David Sims:There we go. Do you guys know? I've got those albums don't worry about it. I was going to say, it's like Jason does not have like a laptop open. Short side tangent, that will be worth it. Please. I promise you. It's fine. We already introduced the show, now we're in. Yeah. The show has started. We're doing great. We're actually ahead of schedule. It's so funny. David has genuinely calmed down. Yeah. The tension was just for the words that begin the show. A little bit. We're doing great, David. We only have five more segments to talk about. So here's my side tangent.

1:42:34Jason Mantzoukas:David, as a parent, I feel that pressure. I feel it. I've recorded episodes where I've come down and my wife is like, what possibly could you be doing?

1:42:47Griffin Newman:The idea of coming down and being like, oh, but we had 18 more minutes on fucking Predator 2. And we're not resolved on the... Griff and I are like, let's go, child. Childless man. Bachelors. We have nothing to do. I'm in New York. I don't have my family.

1:43:03Jason Mantzoukas:I'm very happily going to say as long as I'd like. we do have a show tonight I'm coming to the show

1:43:10David Sims:oh really oh my gosh we'll talk about it in Manhattan right the great New York City the great town hall George Lucas talk show when we were doing so much of it during the pandemic over live streams Connor as he is want to do got very into the idea of producing an original soundtrack album on vinyl I remember because there have been enough songs that we like like improvised or musical performances. Yes. So there were like a couple original songs, but there were times where we ended up doing improvised, like covers of other songs. And Connor, as is his want, was like, I'm going to produce like, you know, 300 of these or whatever, but I want to legally clear every single second of it.

1:43:54David Sims:And he spent like a year going through and clearing every kind of musical thing. And any artist we had had on the show who had representation from someone else, making sure like no one's going to make money off this, but I want this to all be above board, right? And one of the things was we had someone perform one of the songs from the Star Wars Holiday Special. And there's so much mystery around the Star Wars Holiday Special because everyone ran for the hills and tried to, you know, eschew credit for that. And he was like, we got to figure out who wrote this song. I think it was the Bea Arthur song.

1:44:26David Sims:And Connor did months of digging and found out that it was written by to kind of like go to 50s, 60s variety show comedy legends who did most of the original songs for the Carol Burnett show. Oh, cool. Who died decades ago. And that Disney has never bothered to copyright the holiday special songs because Lucas disowned it. Right. Fox never did it. Lucasfilm never did it. Disney didn't do it now. It's like just out there. No one has the rights. and he was like, who is the next of kin for these old Borscht-Beldy comedy writers? And it was Gillian Welch. Her parents wrote the songs for the Star Wars holiday special and Connor got connected with her and he was like, weirdest phone call you're ever going to receive in your life.

1:45:13David Sims:You actually own five Star Wars songs? Wow. Did she have any knowledge of that? No. So she made a deal with him for nothing, right? I love it. But she was like, Thanks for letting me know I have IP over Disney.

1:45:30Jason Mantzoukas:That is wild. And I feel like that special is amazing. I got to do a documentary about it where I got to read the outline that was given. And it is one of the best pieces. It's great. I mean, everything about that and how weird it was, I feel like it needs to be released. And it's remastered.

1:45:54Griffin Newman:I think George and Harrison may have to depart this mortal coil for like it to actually be like, well, did you hear though that that they're remastering the original? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I live in hope. The story had always been. I live in a new hope.

1:46:07David Sims:The stories have always been that contractually when George sold Lucasfilm to Disney, one of his baked in conditions was you cannot release the original theatricals. That even upon leaving, he was like, you can't do it without me. Right. So something has something has changed.

1:46:24Griffin Newman:Either they convinced him or he, you know, it expired or something.

1:46:28David Sims:And do you know that, like, right now, as we record in the Disney parks, they have Chewbacca, the walk around Chewbacca with the red robe and the Life Day orb. Oh, wow. Like, they will not let the holiday special out legally, but there's, like, merchandise of it. But there's references. And there's references to it.

1:46:43Jason Mantzoukas:Well, because now what they've done is Lego did a—I worked with Disney and a very high up executive at Lucasfilm. I had done a special for Marvel where I did a documentary about this failed comic book called Brute Force. And we went back and got to do some stuff and Kevin Feige allowed us a little bit of leeway until there was none. And then, but then they were like, can you do this for the special? So we can maybe re-air the special but that died a much quicker death.

1:47:15Griffin Newman:Yeah, yeah. Someone catches wind and is like, no, right, squish.

1:47:19David Sims:Yeah. Yeah, I know. I just I love everything about the segment. The moment for me that is like I enter a state of nirvana is when in the sort of standoff, he turns to the camera. It is not the first time he's spoken to the camera.

1:47:36Griffin Newman:He talks about the mirror where he's like, and I'm up and I'm backwards and I'm looking at him. It's before that.

1:47:40David Sims:It's the moment that introduces that because at the beginning, of course, he's on the horse. He's singing. He's talking to the camera. He's acknowledging it. Right. But then he's sort of been in his world entering these tough bars. Everyone's laughing at him, being like, what the fuck is up with this guy? And then he reasserts his dominance. Right. And this whole like Cohen thing of this tension between this guy who seems like an idiot goofball also being capable of like intense, horrific violence. Right. The sort of like subtext under the movie fight cleaned up version of an American myth. and he stayed in that reality for like 10 continuous minutes, I feel like.

1:48:18David Sims:And then he's in the shoot off. He's done the five fingers, right? He like in this fucking shootout decides to shoot all five of the guy's fingers off so that he can't fire the gun. And he's like trying to figure out if he can do it with his left dominant hand, right? And Tim Blake Nelson turns back to the camera that's behind him and goes, I ain't got but the one bullet left and it's with this like Bugs Bunny ain't I a stinker like he's thrilled at the challenge well what's so fun about this whole segment is it starts off so big in scale and scope and it just gets closer and closer and closer in so that at a certain point especially once he's talking to us it is conspiratorial Tim Blake Nelson is including us in his mischief And us, he's letting us in on what's going on in a way that I was like, oh, I love it.

1:49:15And that he that there are no more narrators, that there are no more talking to us. That goes away once he dies.

1:49:21David Sims:And what's happening here goes beyond self-defense, right? What you need to do to survive in the West, because even like the Clancy Brown thing is like the rules of poker. You know, that's a dead man's hand. You have to respect that. If he doesn't like when he goes, I would appreciate it if you would go and turn your firearm into the closet over there or whatever, you know, the gun check. It was so funny. He's just so unfazed by everything. But at this point, it's like, okay, there's a shootout. There is self-defense. He needs to shoot first. He's actually just torturing this man. To not just shoot him in the head, but to shoot his fingers off one by one.

1:49:57Griffin Newman:It's not just a white hat 40s thing. It's violent. It's cruel. There's a weird dissonance to that that I love.

1:50:03David Sims:And then as you say, at that moment, after he shot all five fingers off, turns to the audience and is like, we're having fun here, right?

1:50:09Jason Mantzoukas:Which we are. But this is also, we talked about Looney Tunes, but that's also Three Stooges, which I think is very much them too. Like, Three Stooges is violent. It's quite brutal. Right, and if you were to look at it, it's like, you can see it one way and you can see it another way. And I think that, like, to your point, Jason, when he's like, my brother, like that, it's like, oh, that's this weird line that the whole movie walks where it's like, it is real, but we also have him going up with a little angel wings and a harp. And it's like, And that to me, that's what I love about this. I mean, I would say it's probably the best piece of the entire film because I think it is the most thought out, the most beautifully done.

1:50:53David Sims:And this beautiful moment of like, I got the one bullet. Turns around, fucking vanity mirror, silver plated, right? Figuring out the angles of where to shoot. Then he calls out like, it's risky. I shouldn't get too fancy with it. as if he isn't already doing this trick shot, then murders this man in cold blood and then gets challenged to a new duel by this like new Hollywood Western cowboy, right? And this guy is obeying the same rules. The reason why he's able to shoot Buster Scruggs down is because he doesn't do the fucking preamble. Right, he's not talking to the camera.

1:51:26Jason Mantzoukas:He's not playing to the thing because Buster Scruggs is actually playing to the audience, right? Because he's like, yeah, yeah, we can do the count. It's almost like someone's calling him off stage. The moment where he uses the same mirror to look at the bullet hole in his own head is wonderful.

1:51:44David Sims:And the reveal of the hat. And the framing of that. Yeah. And even when this cowboy's walking away and singing this Oscar-nominated song, he's not doing it down the barrel of the lens. He's singing, but it's like we shift to like a cat baloo. We have to move on, though.

1:51:58Griffin Newman:We do have to move on. We have five more segments to do. Segment two. You're all good on us. Anyone help me? No. Okay. Now, this is the simplest one joke premise, right? It's sort of all building to punchline. I do really like it. This is the most, like, it feels like a cute little short story. This is the slightest. Wait, which one is it? Tell me. This is the James First. This is Franco. Oh, yeah. Steven Rood. I think Franco is incredibly well cast in this. Galactus is in this. Galactus is in it. He's there. he's there I hunger I don't I mean I don't know what you guys but Kang is there too right a couple Kangs there are a couple

1:52:42Jason Mantzoukas:Kangs they're all Kangs I mean this is the cool thing about this everybody in this is a Kang yes I loved when the time variance authority showed up I love Mr.

1:52:49David Sims:Timely

1:52:50Griffin Newman:when's he coming back so many things in whatever phase 4 5 whatever that was 5 6 where they were like this makes sense there's a lot to draft off here where I'm like, you guys have nothing.

1:53:02David Sims:Sorry. Nothing. In my memory, this was like the first major post like Me Too, Time's Up, Franco thing, which gives it an interesting air because you're like, here he is not charming at all. Being an outlaw. Right. He's really, he's well cast. He's really good. It's all about like this guy just barely escaping culpability for his actions. Kind of the last thing he's

1:53:27Griffin Newman:done. He mostly disappears after this. Right, that anyone really watched.

1:53:31David Sims:I was wondering if this was shot for. I think it was shot before, but came out quite a bit after because of their post-production.

1:53:38Griffin Newman:It's similar to the Deuce where it's like the Deuce wrapped up in 2019 or whatever, which is the other sort of last thing he did of note. But this is his last major credit for a good chunk of time. He's such a good comparison to Root in total, like, gonzo mode. Oh my God. Steven Root in, like, silliest bug man mode. Yeah, I mean, incredible. And like, I mean, the gag, the thing. All right. So the thing about this one is apart from the gag of first time, which is hilarious. Right. Which like hit for me so hard. And I laughed when I saw it. Is that in this one, we're really for the first time seeing like Native Americans, this command cheese as like classic Hollywood villains where they are just like violent and scary and have no character.

1:54:21Griffin Newman:Right. The movie does this twice because they're just like a murder as well. Right. Basically. And I think it put people off because it's like, you don't see this in revisionist Westerns basically ever. Like this kind of like classic cartoony cowboys and Indian kind of villain thing. And I feel like they're, they would, the Coens would just be like, yeah, well, this is the million we're playing. It's riffing on the history of these types of stories. But it is quite shocking. I love the moment in it when the, when they're attacking and, and, and Franco's got the noose around. and there's one of the guys who's trying to hang him first gets an arrow in the throat.

1:54:55Yes, yes. Pulls it out. It's still going. It's a second arrow in the throat. I was like, these are the jokes. This is so good. Yes. But then it's such a funny sequence. And then the Indians leave and everybody else is dead. And it's just Franco on his horse. The tension between the horse's appetite forcing it further and further, tightening the noose tighter and tighter, that tension is great.

1:55:23Jason Mantzoukas:I love that. It's such a great moment because you have this great action scene and it is this, like, it gives it so much more weight because any moment he could also be, his neck could be snapped and it's done. And it's like, it's so great. But then that right next to, like moments before, Steven Root coming out in pots and pans. The silliest getup. Right, right. And it's amazing. The most comical villain. He's also put, he's stripped down.

1:55:52Griffin Newman:With a catchphrase. Yeah. Pan shot. Pan shot. And the glee with which he's screaming pan shot is so funny.

1:56:00David Sims:What's skillful about this too is it's all wind up to one punchline, right? It is the like tremendous Cohen's comic irony of a guy being able to be hung for the second time. Right? To be the kind of like old sage, I've been through this before.

1:56:15Griffin Newman:Well, he's died, right? He's kind of a ghost. And so he's like, when he's not scared to die the second time.

1:56:20David Sims:See, I think it's the opposite thing. My read is this guy thinks that he can't be killed. Oh, that's a fair read. I think it's that too. I think the smile, yes. I think this, I've seen here before,

1:56:33Jason Mantzoukas:this can't keep me down. Something will work out. I do think though, it is a one joke thing, but I also think the first joke is one of the funniest. a bank in the middle of nowhere there's no town there's no anything that image is great

1:56:53Griffin Newman:you don't even think about it the absurdity of this thing

1:56:56Jason Mantzoukas:that is such a funny fucking thing and then it just goes

1:56:58Griffin Newman:someone making it all the way out there and being like what this place needs is a bank

1:57:03David Sims:going back to this awkward notion of these developing proper society of America right like this is how things should be and yet it isn't quite right yet yes no it's so wrong and

1:57:16Jason Mantzoukas:i think that that's like and that's what i love about like everyone is making these mistakes but then also you know it's uh like not doubling down but it's like i love how fierce he is to protect himself like of course right like he goes into battle mode yes like he's an idiot maybe to build that bank there but he's not an idiot to protect the money oh and the setup of the shotguns the scatter guns underneath each teller's window. He's home alone his whole fucking... Exactly. That's exactly right. And do you think that there are other tellers there? That's the other thing I was thinking about.

1:57:47Jason Mantzoukas:A thousand. Is he the only one? I mean, but it is built up. Like, this is a thoroughfare. Like, people are coming in and out.

1:57:55David Sims:Right. It makes you ask a bunch of questions about who this guy is. Yes. In a good Coen way, where you're like, any one scene character, you wish you could learn about their entire life. and a lot of that's in casting, but also the details of like, what made him pick this place? Has he ever had other employees?

1:58:10Jason Mantzoukas:Well, like, I guess I was wondering in this whole thing, how much the Coens talk to their actors about what they want? Because that's also a very big...

1:58:19Griffin Newman:You always hear like, not that much.

1:58:21Jason Mantzoukas:See, that's, and that's like, Clint Eastwood, we were, I talked to one person who was in Unforgiven and he was like, I went to Clint and I was like... Morgan Freeman. Morgan Freeman. And he was like, I went to him, I was like, I want to do this, I want to do that. and he goes no no no you're the actor right you do that don't tell me about it yeah and i was like so interesting and i wondered if they were like this because it's a great choice he plays it i mean they're playing very different energies and and you can play that have that degree of freedom on a clint eastwood movie to have that degree of freedom and know that you're only going to get one take because he's famous for only doing one maybe two takes that's crazy yeah i i feel we're gonna

1:59:02Griffin Newman:I just had an intimate dinner with Bradley Cooper. Well, well, well. By intimate dinner, I mean like me and 20 other people at a dinner for his new movie with him and Will Arnett. What did you guys have to eat?

1:59:12David Sims:Wait a second.

1:59:13Griffin Newman:Is this thing on? It was on. This thing was on. And Bradley, of course, did depart before dinner was over to pick up his daughter from Russian class. Sure, of course. Okay. But I chatted to Bradley Cooper for a bit, and all I wanted to ask him about was Clint Eastwood, because of course I'm obsessed with Clint Eastwood, and that is what I was asking about. And I was sort of like, is it like, is, is it as intense as you imagine? And he was like, not at all. No, no, no. He was like, he's like jazz, baby. He's just walking around. He's like, why don't you try this? It's all very flowy and smooth.

1:59:43Griffin Newman:And like, and he was like, and there were a couple of times we screwed something up. Oh, interesting. And like, it was okay. Like nobody was like, uh-oh, Clint's going to blow his top. Meaning they didn't get it or something. Right. Where it's like, yeah, no, we can relight it. We can, you know, it's like, it wasn't quite as severe as you imagined is how he was putting it to me. Obviously he's Bradley Cooper. he probably has a little more you know weight to throw around

2:00:02Jason Mantzoukas:but I think that's also like I think the misnomer is if you got it you got it and you move on and I think that that's the difference

2:00:08Griffin Newman:Clint's whole thing is also it's just like I think the more you do it the more you get away from it

2:00:12Jason Mantzoukas:like that's Clint's like philosophy is what you hear by the way I was just double checking the person that I talked to about Clint Eastwood Saul Rubinick oh there you go of course and he's so good in him right and so I just like I think it is and but that idea being like they it's like like Alfred Hitchcock would talk about like he's like oh I've already done the hard part before I get to set.

2:00:31David Sims:I think the Coens are closer to that. From what I have heard, without being... Because they prepare so meticulously for all the visual stuff. That Hitchcock was almost dismissive of actors. Hitchcock is the kind of...

2:00:41Griffin Newman:He's moving dolls around.

2:00:43David Sims:They're my little Playmobil figures. An impediment to his perfect creative vision. Finturesque, if you would argue. I think Eastwood is, I hired you, I trust you, do whatever you want. I am an actor. But come prepare, know your lines. I expect you to be a professional, but then it's your... This is your space. I'm not going to pull this out of you. Right. And the problem is when people are great in Eastwood movies, when he's cast them perfectly, they fucking kill it. And you see people who are sort of like stranded at sea and you know that he wasn't giving them any help.

2:01:09Jason Mantzoukas:Right. Well, and I think that you can also say that for Soderbergh is like that too. Sometimes I think Soderbergh moves very quickly. And sometimes people can really be like pop in. Why is he not like tending to me?

2:01:19David Sims:The thing I've always heard about the Coens is that they just don't want to get into the psychology of it. It's very objective based, but they know what they want. they love collaboration

2:01:28Griffin Newman:but if I go up to them and I'm like and why am I robbing this bank they would be like shh that's not because you need the money

2:01:34David Sims:like that's what they would say you know that's very mammoth that's very like just say the lines they won't let you fuck up like they won't let you drown and they will take the time to get it right and that's the difference

2:01:45Jason Mantzoukas:it's like there's not there are very few bad performance if any I think not really yeah well that's a triumph of casting and their scripts are incredible I was at I heard Rogan on the Lebowski. Right, Lebowski. I was at that reading of Lebowski. Did you read or were you just... No, I was in the audience. Right, yeah, okay. And what blew my mind when watching it, because I know that movie so well, was how much of the ums and uhs, how much of the unique speech patterns for everybody were in the writing. They weren't, the actors hadn't brought that cadence or those things to it. It was all there.

2:02:23That blew me away.

2:02:25David Sims:If you build up the career like this, you start to enter a magical phase that I think is very similar to Wes Anderson right now, where it's like everyone knows. And what the tone of her performance is in one of your movies, what they like out of actors, how the language should sound. It's easy to do the work at home.

2:02:42Griffin Newman:A lot of security is like, I know you do a good job. Like if you're on a Wes Anderson set or whatever. But you also don't.

2:02:48David Sims:The script is written so specifically and the like proof of concept exists out there and you go, I think I can figure out what they want and come correct.

2:02:56Jason Mantzoukas:And I think the interesting difference with Wes Anderson, and maybe I'm making a generalization here, but he really does go, I'm going to work with the same people because I don't even want to. I mean, there are new people every now and then, but it's like it feels like I these people will deliver this thing, whereas the Coens feel like they are there's a stable, but they are bringing in new people and you're and they're killing it. Like, you know, it's like they don't they seem that they want to meet new talent.

2:03:20David Sims:Well, and there's a greater variety in their tones. They will switch within a couple different modes versus Wes Anderson making very different films that all have a very similar sensibility. So you see this film.

2:03:32Griffin Newman:You've watched the first two segments, and I feel like you're like, okay, I get it. This is Coen Brothers' Western little nuggets being thrown at me. And then you watch Meal Ticket. Because I feel like Meal Ticket has to be the third where it's a little bit of a halt. It's not all going to be bandits and Indians and cowboys and banks, right? Like Meal Ticket is a crazy, you know, sorbet. Meal Ticket was my favorite.

2:03:58Jason Mantzoukas:The first time I saw it, Meal Ticket was my favorite because it was so, it's so affecting. And I think it even hits harder after the first two. Like you're just like, oh, like the scene where he is having sex with like the prostitute and he's just looking down the barrel of the camera and I'm like, oh my God. It's just like - He turned him away. Henry Melling, is that his name? Harry Melling. Harry Melling. I'm so sorry. He said this completely transformed his career.

2:04:23Griffin Newman:Obviously, he's Dudley Dursley in that. But this is kind of his reclamation. Yes, 100%. Absolutely incredible, because the vast majority of this piece is only him reciting all of these incredible monologues.

2:04:38David Sims:Without the use of most of his body, without his extremities. And it is just on him, and there is no dialogue until almost the end. You know, and that is, I mean, ancillary dialogue, any dialogue between him and Liam But Neeson says like a combined 40 words in this thing maximum. And I feel like Harry Melling does not have a single line off stage. He doesn't communicate unless he's doing the poetry.

2:05:00Jason Mantzoukas:He is the chicken. Right. Like, I mean, he is not a human. And that is so, and that's so interesting to me.

2:05:08Griffin Newman:It's like, this is about podcasts having to pivot to video, right? That's what it's about. That's what the chicken is. It is.

2:05:14David Sims:Yeah. The comedic concept that one time is an occurrence, two times it's coincidence, three times it's a pattern, right? And this is, to your point, David, where they're starting to train you to understand, oh, there is a through line. All of these stories are going to come back to the same notion of how we negotiate death, right? And that Franco is this guy who, in my opinion, my reading is he thinks he's above it. He starts to think that he's magical, that nothing can get to him, right?

2:05:40Griffin Newman:Right, maybe I'm invincible.

2:05:41David Sims:And he has this final moment where he looks at the young girl in the crowd, and he's not even concerned about the news around his neck. There's a pretty girl. Because he's basically, as James Franco was wont to do when he sees a young woman in a crowd, he's basically thinking like, oh, it'd be great when I go flirt with that woman in like half an hour when I'm down from here. I'm going to, the noose will break and I'll make a run forever. I think he's not like imagining, wouldn't it be great if I was there with her? He's thinking, I will be there. Well, he's there to say death is inescapable. And if you think you got away with it, you didn't.

2:06:13David Sims:So watching that segment, you don't really know what it's about. and the second it ends with his death and then like hard out, that's where they're teaching you, oh, this is going to come for everyone in this segment in some way or another.

2:06:24Jason Mantzoukas:Well, then what is the difference that you see between the first and second approach to death? Because obviously Buster Scruggs feels invincible. He feels like death is never going to come for him. He's never -

2:06:36David Sims:He's not even thinking about it.

2:06:37Jason Mantzoukas:No, he is a showman and he is almost showboating around it and that's what gets him killed. Then the second one, it's like, I guess maybe the difference is that the first person feels like he's unkillable. The second one feels like he can escape death. And the third one is it's inevitable.

2:06:52David Sims:Well, and the third one you're watching and you're like, what does this have to do with the other two outside of like the brutality of this time? Right. I think there's something about how in the in each of the first two, you could argue death is coming for them because they are engaged in life and death events. They are seeking out or are part of things that lead to people's deaths. Melling is a true innocent. He is seemingly also out of danger. He is a pure innocent. So it even comes for the innocent. The cruelty of this world is that even the innocent, even the artists, even the soft are going to be...

2:07:33Melling is

2:07:34Griffin Newman:movie theaters and the chicken is Netflix. And that is true and Sarandos does have the chicken in his office. My reading is that this is... No, I have a reading too, but what's your reading?

2:07:44David Sims:This is them commenting on the kind of level of disdain that show business has for the creators. I agree. A little bit of that.

2:07:51Griffin Newman:A hundred percent.

2:07:52David Sims:They view them as freaks, and their job is to build an industry around their bizarre thing. And also grab the next thing.

2:08:00Jason Mantzoukas:There's no loyalty to the thing.

2:08:02David Sims:The second you don't have an audience,

2:08:03Griffin Newman:you are garbage to me. But Neeson is sympathetic, partly because it's Liam Neeson. He's a great actor, but he can do so much with his face or whatever. But like he does feel bad. But to my point, he's not tossed someone in the river.

2:08:16David Sims:And to what you were saying, right, of like he seems safe. This is not a guy who exists in a world of danger, right? He has been rescued. One of the few full lines that Neeson has is when he's going to the crowd with the can collecting money and he's patting himself on the back for like, isn't it such a sad story? Look at him. I found him in the street like this. No arms and legs. I saved him. Like he's giving himself the honor of, look at me, the hero who discovered the nobility of this man with a poet's heart and the ability to speak to the masses. But that's a studio head. Totally. And then the second he stops drawing a crowd, it's like, this guy's fucking garbage.

2:08:50Well, yes, it's somebody who used to care about putting art out and is now concerned with... He wants the prestige of standing next to high art.

2:08:58Griffin Newman:Beyond everyone's studio takes, and you guys definitely are not annoyed at Hollywood at all in any way. Everything in Hollywood is going according to plan. A plus A, okay. Our careers are going perfectly. exactly how we thought they would play out. It's also like in these, these ideas of the West is this like, you know, the, you know, white American European culture is encroaching on this like wild land, right. Where they're like, listen, gathered, you know, peasants to say, you know, to the Shakespeare and the Percy, you know, and like, I love those reaction shots of like the old people going, just like, they don't know what he's saying.

2:09:35Griffin Newman:Right. Like it's just, but these like words are so interesting. and like you know then there's the brutality like yeah but at the end of the day they're gonna like the chicken more so like you know there's only so much remember when brian cox and the actors all came to deadwood uh i do i love i love that sequence of episodes it is amazing because you're watching deadwood knowing season three is the last season david milch doesn't know that or whatever you know like yeah yeah and and you know like with about four episodes to go suddenly it's about Brian Cox ordering ham and you're like this is one episode right and it's

2:10:08Jason Mantzoukas:like no this is like three episodes anyway but I will but I guess maybe in a broader sense it's just about how new takes over like a mom and pop a mom and pop store gets taken over by a target right like I mean and it's and it's about culture evolving somebody figures out oh this is a simpler way it's an easier way it's about good TV being replaced by reality TV and that's why We went on strike in 2007. And we got everything we needed. But I mean, but I do think that like, yes, we are looking at it through the lens of like directors and actors. But I also think that that is how society runs to the newer, flashier thing will always overtake.

2:10:49David Sims:I think there are a couple other things going on. I mean, you know, you were saying that they went to Netflix and they went to Annapurna because they said, what studio is going to green light this? But you look at some of the quotes they have from talking about setting up this film and beyond like, well, we're doing something weird and unconventional, so we have to go to an unconventional place. They were already saying it does feel like a kind of grown up movie has died. It does feel like the industry has shifted. It does feel like it's harder to sell anything that isn't Marvel. And these are guys who have been able to do that for 30 years.

2:11:17David Sims:Exactly what they want for decades. And even while still getting things made, they're like, we can feel it moving. We can feel it moving past us. Maybe we're Harry Melling and the crowd starting to thin out. We've not been thrown over the bridge yet, but you can see it going down. And it's always going to come to the brass tacks of, does it cost less to feed a chicken than a guy? Right? Like, that's what's so brutal about this segment is you really see that the calculation in Liam Neeson's mind is like, I got to feed him with the spoon. I got to think about his feelings. This chicken, you just throw some corn at him.

2:11:52David Sims:I got to make him a stew. I got to hold him while he shits and pisses. Right. It's the bag of feet is the thing that changes it for him where he's just like, it's just this.

2:12:01Jason Mantzoukas:Well, I think the image of from behind him with the birdcage looking out into the thing, it's like it's it's just it's an easy it's an easier life. And it's it's a and it that's what he's living a hard life. Everyone's just trying to survive. That opening is just like, I'm putting down the thing. I'm putting down the hat. I'm doing this other thing. It just seems so hard. But I also wonder, and I don't know if I have an answer for this. why was that guy so willing to sell a chicken? Like, you know...

2:12:30Griffin Newman:Sure, is this chicken gonna die in a year? I mean, it's a chicken. Right. Yeah, it always felt to me like the chicken is a scam. Yeah. Right. You know? It does feel like, yeah, this chicken can't actually do much.

2:12:39David Sims:And my read is also that Neeson, like, wildly overpaid. That Neeson basically put his life savings towards the chicken. Because there was a part of me that felt like... He's down to zero. There's a get-rich-quick scheme.

2:12:48Jason Mantzoukas:There's a part of me, and I think I wanted this moment, is, like, that guy had... I mean, this is a full invention. that that guy had a little man underneath that cart to do the man.

2:12:58David Sims:And he's not selling him.

2:12:59Jason Mantzoukas:And he's not selling the man. Because that's the scheme.

2:13:02Griffin Newman:Or he came with plants, audience plants, whatever.

2:13:05David Sims:I think the chicken isn't as much of a golden goose as he thinks it is. It's a chicken. It's not a goose. Okay, I'm sorry. I think the chicken's kind of a canard.

2:13:16Jason Mantzoukas:As a kid, I grew up in New York. Now that is French for dog.

2:13:20David Sims:Okay, wait a second. Let me try.

2:13:23Jason Mantzoukas:as a kid I went with my dad to Chinatown all the time and I saw this this is what I saw it was the most exciting fun thing to ever see it was so cool it was like a chicken that could do math and they had a game a tic-tac-toe game where you would play against a chicken it was like a battery powered game

2:13:40Griffin Newman:and it was great and obviously there was Letterman's Super Patricks

2:13:43David Sims:I think quite possibly the answer is

2:13:46Jason Mantzoukas:it should have been Letterman taking his cabin boy character now that's a universal

2:13:49Griffin Newman:Letterman would have crushed in Buster Scruggs

2:13:51Jason Mantzoukas:I think Letterman in that section might have been fantastic. Want to buy a monkey?

2:13:59David Sims:His cabin boy character would fit perfectly in this film. I think part of what's going on, even if it's not like a little man, it's in the building of the cart or it's in the way he trains the chicken. I think this guy, Liam Neeson's coming up to him, offering to pay more and more money. And he's like, the chicken's not the thing. There's some secret that he's not selling to Liam Neeson. and even if he is telling him the secret, he's like, I can replace the chicken. The chicken's not the thing. If I want to still do the chicken act, I go to a farm, I get a new chicken. He didn't sell him the cart.

2:14:30Jason Mantzoukas:I guess it's buyer beware too. But you don't see the buyer beware part. You just see the shiny new.

2:14:40David Sims:You just see how quickly he makes the calculation.

2:14:43Griffin Newman:You also don't see him kill Harry Melling. You just infer what is happening.

2:14:47Jason Mantzoukas:That sound effect, that plunk, is brutal.

2:14:50David Sims:It's tough. And I also, I think to what you were saying, David, there's this notion of, oh my God, they're bringing high art to the people, right? Here's a sophisticated show and this audience sits, rapt attention, you know, giving him ultimate respect and then applauding. But the subtext is they're here to see the freak, right? Like the fact that he's such a good dramatic orator is the party trick. It's no different than a chicken being able to do math. the actual thing that's interesting is the creature on stage. Right. And that's just the dressing on top of it. And the second, like the material isn't working, the novelty of the guy is out the window and the guy has no value.

2:15:30Jason Mantzoukas:But I also, but I think I would argue that what's interesting is I may not have understood what that guy said, and I may not have even gotten the point, but it left me thinking, and that was interesting, and that was cool. And maybe part of that is the body. But the other thing is irrefutable. I saw an animal do math. I know what I saw. And that is, I guess, I get a point A to B. It's like, I can tell you what I saw. Where the other one is like, I felt something. I don't know how I felt about it. And I can't tell you. It's art. It's a difference of art. And yeah.

2:16:06David Sims:It's also the difference that this isn't being framed as like a sideshow act, right? Like there are guys like Johnny Eck, who's in like Freaks, who was the famous half man who lacked a lower body. Right. He's not showing off his he's showing off his acting skills. There were so many successful performers of this time who were born with like different like physical issues. Right. Who then made their act. Watch me roll a cigarette with my teeth. You know, watch me do this without legs. And he's not doing that. The fact that he is armless and legless is irrelevant to the material of what he's doing.

2:16:36David Sims:And yet the harsh reality is they would not be bothering to pay attention to you if you didn't look like this.

2:16:42Jason Mantzoukas:Well, yeah. And I also feel like they make a really cool choice Of not making him like The minute he gets off stage going I am a motherfucker You don't do the baby hearing thing You just don't hear him He doesn't talk

2:16:55Griffin Newman:Like a parent who like you put the shit over the cage

2:16:59Jason Mantzoukas:But you see his face And you know that That's why I think the emotion is

2:17:04Griffin Newman:It's why that guy Harry Melling Is in a lot of stuff now

2:17:08David Sims:Looking at his face you're just like this is an incredible actor

2:17:10Griffin Newman:There was a sadness to his existence

2:17:11David Sims:and his inability to connect. And when he is on stage, he feels like a person. He is speaking some truth for him. And the idea that people are paying attention makes him feel like he is valid. And I actually think, to your point,

2:17:24Jason Mantzoukas:they might come because he has no, you know, he has this odd body. But that goes out the window once it starts. And I think that that's actually a really beautiful thing, too. It's like, oh, I'm just caught up in this.

2:17:35Griffin Newman:Yeah, they do. They are moved by him.

2:17:37David Sims:It's true. It's also such a funny use of Neeson, who they have never worked with before. No. Right? And it's just like stripping down everything about Liam Neeson as a movie star culturally, which especially in the late 2010s is like, now you've had this whole fucking Euro thriller. And it's like, you're taking away that. You're taking away dramatic actor Oscar Schindler. You're just like, this guy looks really strange and has a very intense voice. Liam Neeson is just a physical presence and a vocal presence that is one of one. And what if you put that in an entirely different context and you're just like, there's a lot going on in this guy?

2:18:13Well, it's also he does not. And in a way that Liam Neeson could feel so imposing and so threatening. And he doesn't. He feels small. And even when he's measuring the depth of the water with the rock, you don't feel like there is cruelty or malice. No, you feel like he is sad. He is. He communicates. He's sad that he.

2:18:35David Sims:Yes, he's doing an incredible job. And he thinks it's a mercy killing. Like, that's part of the tragedy and like the brutality of this movie, you know, in his exploration of death as a concept is that he's doing the math of if he can't bring an audience anymore, then he should be dead. Right. And it's not as a as a judgment. It speaks to to a certain extent that he has always viewed him as a little less than human. But he thinks it is an act of sympathy. I'll put you out of your suffering. I also think that what I get, I go back to the opening.

2:19:08Jason Mantzoukas:I think the openings of all these are really interesting because you open with putting on the thing, putting, you know, he's setting up the, like, it's hard. And it's like, it's like, he is a, yes, he's in show business, but he's doing manual labor. Like he, and this is, he is, I think, beaten down by it's every night, a different town, everything. thing. It's like, and he's doing actually more work to, to put it on the pod, put on.

2:19:34David Sims:Yeah. He's setting up the cameras. He's editing clips. Right.

2:19:38Jason Mantzoukas:And it's like, and it's like, and it's, and wouldn't it be easier? Wouldn't it just my life be better? And it's like, and I think that that's what you see. Like, you're not seeing him on the day that he found them. You're not seeing on the, like you, this is what seven years in whatever it is. It's like, and you feel those years, it's just never going to change. It's never getting better. And his life is empty and alone. And it's I don't know. I think it's a very like they're both sympathetic characters.

2:20:02David Sims:And I also love that it's not like packed house. And then one night it's empty and he goes for the chicken that you see a real kind of durational the crowd tapering off and they're not coming back. And you see like four or five performances that are all losing energy. Right. This guy's like sticking it out.

2:20:23Griffin Newman:I'll go. Canyon is the next one. Yes. It's based to talk about that on a Jack London story. It is. I don't know much about it apart from that it's a Jack London story. Of course, that's the Tom Waits one, which is Jack London's the guy who wrote White Fang and all that. All those boys' adventures.

2:20:39Jason Mantzoukas:This is like a silent short. This is as close to a silent short as I think you can get. Well, there are two great words that get repeated.

2:20:47David Sims:Mr. Pockin.

2:20:48Griffin Newman:But also, does have the Tim Robinson thing, not to keep it, of like, it's so beautiful, it's so quiet, and then when he gets shot, he's like, you motherfucker! He won't stop saying it. You suck. Yeah. Why'd you do that? Yeah. You shot me in the back. I did all this work. Like, he's just saying, we're like, we know, we know. Why'd you do it? You know, but he's like, it really sucked. You shot me in the back. Well, also, this is like the most innately. It didn't hit nothing important. Ben, you want to speak. It went right through. Hit nothing but guts. I think Tom Waits is perfect. Agreed. He's perfect.

2:21:23Another guy you keep playing that hadn't worked with.

2:21:26Griffin Newman:I was going to say, how has he never been in a Coen Brothers? Were they writing it, I think, I wonder, like thinking of him the entire time? Yeah, I would love to know. I would think so. Especially even just the choice of the song to kick off the segment feels so just part of his repertoire. And that it bookends. As he is leaving through the exact same way that he came, he's singing the same song again, which I thought was beautiful. Now, this is their first song they shot on digital. I didn't mention this. After Roger Deacon said he would never shoot on digital. Well, it's not Deacon's. It's Bruno Delbonnel.

2:21:58Griffin Newman:Oh, interesting. I didn't notice that. I do feel like this is, like, obviously the most, like, them being, like, the magnificence, right? Like, you know, it's so beautiful and lush. The crystal clarity of... Right. The animals and all that. Right. And, like, they're messing with the style in each segment. And this is the, like, the true, just, like, the majesty of the West. And it's like... But, of course, at the end of the day, it's a weird little Santa Claus just trying to dig rocks out of the ground.

2:22:23Jason Mantzoukas:Do you think that there's a connection? between like giving a voice to the legless guy from the last, you know, like in this one, because it's sort of like he is killed for, you know, he's like, he's shot in the back. Like there's that thing. Like, how could you do this? It's like, you hear the voice of the aggrieved in that moment. And I feel like you don't get to hear that in the one before. You measly skunk.

2:22:47David Sims:Well, this is the great thing about the segment is that he doesn't die. That after watching three in a row, you're like, I get it. All of these are people marching towards their inevitable death and because of the tension that is built from just how methodical it is, how slow it is, the process of the finding it, the thing with the owl which starts to feel supernatural you know, or at least kind of like spiritual in a way, you're just like, how's this guy gonna fucking get it? But you're watching it and you like this guy so fucking much and he's cooking the egg with the fish

2:23:18Griffin Newman:so hard. And he only takes one egg. He could get greedy but he's like, I'll just

2:23:22David Sims:take one. He's like, how much can an owl count? Yeah, exactly. But this thing feels so lush and romantic, and he is so sympathetic that you're just like, oh, Jesus Christ. And he's good at it. When's the axe going to fall on his head? I hate it, and there's this tension. I love the process of digging each exploratory hole. Oh, less, less, less. Oh, let me go the other way. More, more, more. Now, less, less. Okay, so the vein is somewhere up here. The counting of the, like, three. Shake, new spot, four.

2:23:51Jason Mantzoukas:It reminded me in many ways of the opening of There Will Be Blood in the sense of like methodical there. And, you know, obviously that character goes downhill, but it's like, but, you know, with Rich, but being coming Rich. But this character, I feel like he will not stop. Shooting will not stop. Like he will get his thing. And that's a that's the same thing when he breaks his leg in the opening of There Will Be Blood. How long was that town for how far was that?

2:24:15David Sims:But for that, you're like, this is what makes a man evil. Like this is the death of his soul. This is a guy who perhaps had no morality to begin with, and then he's forged in the darkness of this, like, pit to come out and do whatever he needs to survive. And then versus this story, which is like, what if you start with, like, an old Walter Brennan-style coot, who's usually just the butt of the joke and the character who maybe gets a little moment of, like, more emotion? But if you really got to live with this guy and his process, it's hard not to start caring about him, especially as something of an innocent versus these other stories.

2:24:49David Sims:He's working so hard. Working so hard. And you're like, God, what a waste when someone's going to come and steal all his fucking gold. You know that's what's going to happen. I thought it was crazy when he's digging those holes and he keeps finding jeans. He keeps finding jeans. These are even more valuable than the gold.

2:25:08Griffin Newman:We're thousands.

2:25:11David Sims:Congratulations. Y-O-U.

2:25:16Jason Mantzoukas:Hey, I just Venmo'd you for rent. Nice. Now I can instantly spend it whether I'm checking out online with Venmo or using a Venmo debit card. Say more. More exactly. Because the more you do with Venmo, the more you get. Like earning up to 5 % cash back with Venmo Stash on a bundle of brands. So, order more pizza. The math demands it. Get the Venmo debit card. Venmo Stash bundle terms and exclusions apply. See terms at Venmo.me slash stash terms. Venmo checkout not available at all merchants. Venmo MasterCard is issued by the Bancorp Bank N.A.

2:25:47Griffin Newman:This episode is brought to you by Fox One. Watch all 104 matches of the FIFA World Cup live in 4K for just$19.99 a month with three days free. Build your own multi-view, choose up to three streams, and follow player spotlights. Stay on top of every moment with live stats, highlights, and instant replays. The FIFA World Cup, streaming live on Fox One. Offers a subject to change. See fox.com for complete terms and conditions. yeah I don't know I mean I don't know what to say about this one except that it's just

2:26:21Jason Mantzoukas:truly delightful and I think it's like but I think this is what the benefit the beauty of this movie is there are some that are very slight and I think that they they do something that's interesting it's like Walter Brennan here's a twist on Walter Brennan here's a very simple you know what we a subverting of expectation two ways character and your ending and then boom and we're fine and we just move on it's it's like the James Franco one it's like the Franco one's

2:26:44Griffin Newman:similar. It's like, right, what if you did, like, a Kearnsdale Creek Bridge, but without the twist?

2:26:48David Sims:Well, I think the other thing going on in this short is him putting back two of the three eggs, right? Yes, right. In the words of our great American poet, Seth MacFarlane, there are a million ways to die in the West, right? Oh, okay. And as much as there is, you know. But it's also

2:27:05Griffin Newman:kind of in the words of one of our great Navi poets, Neytiri, kind of educating Sully on, like, only take what you need. Yes. You know what I mean? Is that in Fire and Ash?

2:27:15David Sims:We'll see. That because of the way they filmed the owl, right? Yeah. You're like, oh, this is going to be a story about a man who is cursed for his greed. Right. Right? That the owl is going to place some kind of curse upon him. But these are like people trying to survive. They make terrible decisions, uncharismatic decisions. But it's part of the danger and the lawlessness of this time that you get the sense if he had grabbed three eggs because he, why not? I'm hungry, the owl would have like spited him and smited him. Right. But the generosity of I get it. You just need to survive. As long as you're only eating one of my babies, well, then I'm looking out for you.

2:27:55Jason Mantzoukas:And I think that there's also a lot of that, like that care. Like, it's the same thing that happens with Franco, with the Native American like on the horse, like it comes up to me. It's like there's there is sympathy or there is a connection, right?

2:28:09David Sims:It's a respect for life. Right. And also, this is the guy who's like in touch with nature, in touch with the land, in touch with the world, you know, it like has some inner sense of joy. And I was like, as long as you're not taking more than you need, I accept that this is just the give and take of life. Right. And then it feels like that is almost supernaturally what makes the bullet go through him, which allows him to like get, you know.

2:28:33Jason Mantzoukas:And everybody who dies so far is taking liberties, right? Like our first character, everyone is taking a little bit more than they need to. If it's talking to the camera in the first one, if it's, you know, committed, like it's like they're not learning their lesson. They are continually. Well, what else can I get?

2:28:47David Sims:And the joy he gets from killing this young guy in revenge is, as you're saying, David, like a principled, like I worked this hard and you're just going to take it for me. Like, that's not how this works. Just him seeing the movement, the shadow movement on the ground in front of him on the hole and knowing there's someone there and he's shot before he even looks is great.

2:29:08Jason Mantzoukas:I love that image, too, how his shirt gets more bloody, too. Like, when you're above it, it's a beautiful shirt. I'm old, but you're older.

2:29:15David Sims:And you're just so happy when he, like, rides off singing, and you're like, oh, my God, he makes it out of this alive. He doesn't ride off.

2:29:22Griffin Newman:I'm sorry. He drags his donkey. I just love that detail, too, about the character.

2:29:27Jason Mantzoukas:Yeah. Right, right. Workman life. It's, again, it's another, like, I'm not leaving anything behind. It's like, you know, it's like it's— I'm thoughtful. Yeah. He's committed to doing it the old way. Audio only. no video no video just audio like the medium was intended

2:29:44David Sims:now we've broken the pattern right so it's like this is the first segment in which arguably our central character doesn't die at the end right so then when you enter the Zoe Kazan segment get ready for a hammer blow but maybe you don't know that that for me is like the value of this and why it does need to be longer because it's like fucking with your whole even like your internal rhythms of like this one feels like it's going deeper than the other one? I also misremembered this one, too, as I was watching, because I thought that I remembered her brother dying. And then I was like, then and the guy, the wagon train guy falling in love with her.

2:30:20And I had remembered it as him dying as well. And that everybody around her starts to fall. And it wasn't that. And I was once again, like heartbroken at the end of the film. And you end with the final shot. He is so good in this.

2:30:33David Sims:He is. He's fantastic. But no, you end with the final shot of just seeing, what's his name, Mr. Andrews?

2:30:39Griffin Newman:Yeah.

2:30:39David Sims:Riding off in the distance to tell him. Mr. Arthur. What am I going to tell Bill Knapp is what the line says. Yes. I just think it's so good in the way, like, the movie has trained you to feel like you understand how these stories are going to go and then this upends it by being like, these are the most human characters you have seen yet. We're really investing in their emotional dynamic. There is, like, a sensitivity and a subtlety and a presence to this. It is the least showy cinematically. It feels like when they are in conversation, it is like sustained shot, reverse shot mediums where he is like, they are letting the actors control the scene.

2:31:19Jason Mantzoukas:I will also say that these last two pieces are heavily dialogue driven. Right. And it, right. Right.

2:31:25Griffin Newman:Versus the tranquility of the fourth one.

2:31:28Jason Mantzoukas:And you know, like all, I mean, throughout, I mean, throughout there, they're very like, I mean, yes. And like, while that performer is doing these monologues, it's not like, it's not, it's not a talking to each other. Right.

2:31:39David Sims:Their monologue's happening.

2:31:41Jason Mantzoukas:Yeah. And I feel like that opening sequence is something like it felt like out of a serious man or something like that. The dinner table. It's quick and it's this fight and you're in it and it's like, oh, wow. Like that. I love that opening. I'm like, whoa, what is this? But it's also so weird. There's like they're doing all the Western stuff, but you're like, oh, wait, is this Johnny Guitar? Is this like a really strange lens? What are they riffing on?

2:32:07David Sims:Because you're like, there's a wagon train. There's this notion of an arranged marriage. There's the future out West. Like, what is this? The untrustworthy brother. You know, what's it? You know, and who is going to screw over who? Like, who's lying? Yeah, there's a sort of sense of misdirect of you're trying to get ahead of them and go like, what is this segment? And it takes so long to reveal itself. And because Tom Waits walks off scot-free and because the brother dies early in this, even if you've accepted these are all about death, you go, maybe it's about grieving. Maybe it's about living in the wake of a death of someone close.

2:32:43David Sims:You are lulled into a sense of security of this is not going to just be a tragic rug pull of this romance ending.

2:32:50Jason Mantzoukas:How death can maybe actually create new life because that's what you're kind of seeing is like, we're going to get married. We're going to stay here for the Homestead Act. We're going to, and it will be, we'll actually build something better than even going to the other, the new frontier.

2:33:02David Sims:Going on longer and it's living more with these characters. It grows past feeling like a sketch, right? It starts to feel like they're asking me to invest real emotional weight into this. So clearly they wouldn't bite my hand. I lose bite your hand. Speaking of like one of my favorite things in this one is how disliked by everyone. The dog is like how to go against the grain of everything else, which is the dog is the villain. you know like that she even is like that's not my dog you could if everybody's mad at the dog it's not me you could argue in a long tail way the dog is the most responsible for her death yes right oh yeah she doesn't go off if the dog does not walking at the prairie dogs or whatever but i also if he kills the dog successfully yes happy happy ending they're married right yeah well

2:33:52Jason Mantzoukas:what I also love about it is the way that they seed the punchline, right? Or the setup is really kind of beautifully hidden. It's like, okay, look, if this goes down like this, you hear it and it sounds very heroic, but you don't, like, it's like when you realize it at the end, you're like, oh, right. It really is a magic trick ending because it tells you what's happening. It's like, if I go down, you kill yourself.

2:34:20David Sims:But his line at the end is like, poor girl. She didn't know she could have made it. Yeah. You know that it's like this misinterpretation of a second. Of a moment, yeah. Of a moment, of a movement, of a sound. But he made her so afraid and gave her what to do. He told her the story of the future. She just followed through. Right. And this was the better of two bad options. And it's like, if he had sat up a second earlier. Well, that's it.

2:34:46Jason Mantzoukas:If he had made a noise. But here's my thought about it, too. She has just gone through death, right? And I think that she's quick. She's not, maybe if she didn't go through death, she would have waited a moment more. But she's like, okay, boom. She made that choice instantly. And I don't know if that's about grief. I don't know if that's about grief, but I have to imagine that that quickness of the choice feels like she's been there, she knows, and she's -

2:35:15David Sims:Here's what I think it's about. I think this segment is about two characters very, very tentatively. and with great doubt considering has the world reached a state of modernity where we could live a life based on happiness first? And the fact that it's all about you have to get in this wagon and follow your shitty, dumb brother because he might have a prospect of a man for you to marry because maybe you're seen as a little plain and a little timid. No one wants to marry you and that's your ultimate value as a woman, right? There's no notion of marrying for love, marrying for happiness.

2:35:50Griffin Newman:No, it's like you're making into arguing. You're going to have to survive. Like we're

2:35:53David Sims:planting footholds out here, baby. I think she plays a beautiful balance of she's not treating this as she's walking towards her death sentence. It is what it is. I guess I maybe have to marry my brother's friend, but maybe he's not even that interested in me. Maybe there's not a guy there, whatever. Right?

2:36:08Jason Mantzoukas:Yeah. And she doesn't play. And I was thinking about this too. She doesn't play it totally either. Like, I think a lot of times you see like true or you see like so tentative, so awkwardly like, oh, no one will like this is a unlikable thing. She's just kind of is what it is. Vanilla. Like, that's it.

2:36:27David Sims:You know, it's like she's nice. And in their odd backwards courtship, which is sort of like presented as a marriage of convenience, you know, an arrangement that this is a business proposal, this is a survival mechanism, whatever. They are both refusing to really let themselves accept that maybe this is what they emotionally want. all of their conversations keep happening in non-emotional terms while there is clearly an emotional connection happening where the reason she hesitates when he proposes it to her is I think what she plays very well is the notion of I actually have caught feelings for this guy and him presenting it as well I'll just do this because it saves us both money is that a worse fate for me to end up with a guy who I care about who is viewing me as means to an end?

2:37:15David Sims:Or is he doing this out of pity? That would hurt me more. That they're both feeling each other out of being too afraid to acknowledge, I actually think I just like you because that's not really a thing afforded to people. Well, it's also not what was being done at that time. People weren't marrying for love and for, you know, it was convenience. It was arrangements that made sense. And so can you justify,

2:37:36Jason Mantzoukas:like you have to justify your feelings through some sort of balance sheet that this world identifies and says is the right way to do it.

2:37:44David Sims:The tragedy of her brother's death opens up an opportunity of living a life of enjoyment and pleasure, right? And like self-fulfillment and being understood and seen, which both of them feel skeptical about. And his whole fear is obviously, I don't want to end up like fucking Mr. Arthur. This guy's like the best of the West. But what? He's an old man who like sleeps on rocks, you know? And like what? He's going to die in two years. I feel this guilt of leaving him here to do this alone. But also, this is probably my only off-ramp to living a quote-unquote normal life. Well, a life that is, or a life that could be happy or full of love.

2:38:22And in the last segment, which, David, would you like to segue into the last segment?

2:38:25Griffin Newman:Absolutely. The Mortal War Mains, my favorite segment, but also a perfect, like I said, capper to their career in a way.

2:38:30David Sims:We'll say I gave Zoe Kazan a supporting actress nomination this same year. She's great. I mean, I love her. She's fucking stunning in that. She makes this piece work with every moment she's on screen. She is electric to watch. Don't want to see her.

2:38:44Jason Mantzoukas:Can I say one thing about, because we just, I just, as you just were talking about that, I just want to put one thing and we'll go right into five is that idea that is there also a thing about it's easy to give up? Very. And I feel like that, like, cause it's like, she doesn't give up initially, you know, and when her brother dies and she got, I'm going to move forward. She doesn't give up again. Like she keeps on not giving up. But then at the end, it's like, it's too hard. I'm just going to. Yeah, at a certain point, it's like, Jesus Christ.

2:39:10Griffin Newman:Like, what's life going to be like? I'm probably in my 20s. I probably have a life expectancy of 40. Like, what are we doing? And already in this handful of days. Like, everything's being. I mean, it's just the wagon train thing.

2:39:25David Sims:I can't go back. Where's back? There's no future ahead of me, but my past exists even less. And then suddenly this sliver of hope opens up towards not just a possible future, but possibly a good love-filled future. In the final episode, when they're in the thing and the trapper is talking about the woman that he was involved with. And someone says, did you love her? Like, this is, I think, the first time the word love has been spoken in the entire movie. And he's like, what? What are you even talking about? Like, what is love? Right, that's a luxury. That doesn't exist for another hundred years.

2:40:02Yeah.

2:40:03David Sims:Yeah. And I think you could argue that the characters in the first three segments, I mean, like, Tom Waits is obviously a guy who refuses to give up and wins, right? Right. But the other three are people who push through some kind of struggle or danger, and you look at their ultimate deaths, and you go, would it have been better if they just gave up at an earlier point? Right. Like, what are you fighting for to a certain degree?

2:40:25Jason Mantzoukas:Meanwhile, when she gives up, it was just over the crest of the hill where her life is. Her new life is.

2:40:31David Sims:It was about to happen. Right. And she gave up because of a misunderstanding, which is, I just think, such a profound tragedy. Yeah. It's beautiful. And this one's loosely based on a couple different pieces.

2:40:42Griffin Newman:It's based on a story called The Gal Who Got Rattled by Stuart Edward White. I don't know much more about it. I mean, that's why this. So it's this one and the Tom Waits ones. Which is why this snuck in as an adapted screenplay.

2:40:52David Sims:It was a surprise nomination because no one was really thinking of this as an adapted movie. Right. But also, I feel like the specific story that is cited is also based on kind of a legend of a folktale. Sure. Of similar sort of...

2:41:07Griffin Newman:Like a, yeah, Western, like, this is like a Western trope. They're all tropes. Yeah.

2:41:11Jason Mantzoukas:And that's why I feel like the end is really, when you talk about, like, different. And that, I think, is why, like, when you leave this movie, it all pulls it out. I mean, it really does pull the cords all together at the end. The final one being this kind of so starkly different, both in how it's done, how it looks. It is so insular. It is almost entirely inside of the carriage. It's in a studio.

2:41:39Griffin Newman:Right. The creepiness of you realize how dark it's gotten. And then the extra creepiness of them being like, stop, stop the carriage. And they're like, oh, it doesn't stop for anything. Like Tyne Daly might just have to bite it. Like, you know, and then this is an episode of the Daily Show. We should call it. And this is an episode of the Tyne Daly. No, this is Cagney and Lacey. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is an episode of Cagney and Lacey. No, I'm more of a judging Amy guy. Oh, Brennan. She was so good on that.

2:42:03Jason Mantzoukas:I will also say that this is, I think why I lean in a lot here too, is like, these are five actors that are just, this is dialogue heavy and I am riveted to it. And maybe it's also because of the lack of it or this kind of pacing all the way through. It's like, yeah.

2:42:20David Sims:But this is a classic Coen's juice of just watching like five great character actors fucking cut it up.

2:42:26Griffin Newman:Chelsea Ross, who I love. Great. The great Chelsea Ross who plays the trapper just gets to pop off for five minutes. Marklin Baker. Marklin Baker? Who's Marklin? No, no, no. No, no. Who is it? Do you mean as the Englishman? No. Who do you mean? Saul Rubenek is the Frenchman. Yes. Tyne Daly is the... Is Mrs. Betjeman. Yes. Who am I thinking of? I'm thinking of John Joe O 'Neill unless you're thinking of Brendan Gleeson. I always think John Joe O 'Neill is Jeremy Strong. Or not Jeremy Strong. Danny Strong. It is not? I know what you're saying. The guy's name is John Joe O 'Neill. He also kind of looks like Mark Lynn Baker.

2:43:01Griffin Newman:Does he look like Mark Lynn Baker? Yeah, he does.

2:43:03David Sims:He looks like Mark Lynn Baker. He looks like a lot of other guys.

2:43:06Griffin Newman:But his name is John Joe O 'Neill. He's mostly like an Irish theater actor. But they've all got a monologue except for Brendan Gleeson who has a song. I love that. We're sort of trading off like everybody gets to talk sort of almost uninterrupted for a bit.

2:43:21David Sims:He's also part of a duo act that can be read very cleanly as a self-insert of the Coens or at least kind of thinking about how they are perceived by their critics. That is part of my reading of this segment. That you have these people who represent... This segment is almost like a fucking Pixar's Inside Out argument between different positions on... Kind of philosophies. It's a philosophical debate. Each character is representing a side of it, right? You have the Saul Rubinick character who is like actually just a philosopher. He is a guy who's very caught up in an academic notion of studying theories of existence.

2:44:02David Sims:You have a religious woman who also lives with a kind of shuttered, blinded denial of certain areas of existence.

2:44:10Griffin Newman:But she's also specifically like, she subscribes to like Chautauqua thought, which was like a big thing right at the turn of the century in terms of what she's talking about, that kind of temperate woman's movement. Whereas Chelsea Ross is like, I don't know, I'm a dirty guy with a big beard who married a Native American. He's a man of the land. But I realize we're all the same.

2:44:27Jason Mantzoukas:He's a survivalist. But that's the best part about it is no matter what you believe, it all is the same. Exactly.

2:44:33David Sims:Chelsea Ross has no theology. He's just like, I fuck a woman, doesn't matter, I can't talk to her. I catch some beavers. We kind of do some hand signals.

2:44:40Griffin Newman:It's all good. It's all good.

2:44:42David Sims:And then you have these two brothers who I think are representing this notion of the Coens as these sort of like mordant tricksters who love like spitefully kind of like mockingly sending characters to their death.

2:44:54Jason Mantzoukas:Well, and that's what I think is kind of this, if it is the - They say like, we enjoy it. We like watching them die.

2:45:00David Sims:Which is what their critics say. I know, I know, I know, exactly. Putting dumb characters in danger and having them die terribly. Well, and they even - Oh, go ahead. I was gonna say, they even say like, oh, you can bring them in dead or alive and they're like, yeah, but we only bring them in dead. Don't worry, we kill everybody.

2:45:17Jason Mantzoukas:Yeah, but I love that if this is the last one and whether it was not intentional probably that they didn't know. Maybe not entirely, yeah. But this is the first time I feel like you see the two of them represented. I mean, these are very much them, right? I mean, this is -

2:45:31David Sims:Yes, yes, yes. And even down to their bounty hunters whose act is one guy's a performer who distracts so that the other guy can attack. which speaks to this kind of like the two-headed director thing that people talk about with them, of like two guys approaching the same motive from different angles.

2:45:49Jason Mantzoukas:I've always heard also that one talks to you about acting and one is worried all about the technical stuff when you were on set. Sure, sure, sure. But also that they represent this sort of like

2:45:57David Sims:in the ideological wheel of this, that they represent this sort of like we tell ourselves stories in order to live thing, right? Right. That like what is their function? Death's coming no matter what. We're not murderers. we're just fulfilling a thing that has already been requested by the universe. And we ease people into that with stories, right? We tell them stories. We sing them songs, these old folk tales. And most of the stories they tell are gothic, are mordant, you know?

2:46:26Jason Mantzoukas:And that's why you have that, like, I think these bookends, it's like the first is like them doing the movie version of how they do it. And then this is like the, not the commentary track, but the Q &A afterwards. You know, it's like you have the two perspectives of what they're trying to do.

2:46:41Griffin Newman:A hundred percent.

2:46:42David Sims:But there's just one stop on the carriage and everyone's got to get out here. I fucking love it. And they don't want to. And they don't want to.

2:46:48Griffin Newman:Ladies first, I need help getting down. These are some good bits. These are some good I don't want to go bits. And I like saw Ruben Eck going like, yeah, all right. Like, let me at them.

2:46:58Jason Mantzoukas:But sorry, Paul, go ahead. No, no, I just, this is something that I just feel like rewatching it. I didn't remember it from the first time as cleanly. And then I was like, oh, this is, I think, my favorite thing. I agree.

2:47:12David Sims:Mark Pease, or I'm sorry, Joshua Pease, wrote a piece for the now defunct birth movie's death on this segment when it came out that's incredibly good about this sort of being what feels like the greatest summation of their worldview. Forgive me, because even though I'm such a fan and a regular listener, Patreon member, does the dossier get published? No, it's too

2:47:36Griffin Newman:like the sources JJ's pulling, like it's like commercializing in any way is a little tricky. You know, these are academic things we don't want to clear. What you just said, Griff, is a great example. I would, after some of these things, want to then go and read or listen to or whatever. Please do. I like that.

2:47:55Jason Mantzoukas:I like that idea.

2:47:56David Sims:JJ is such a law-abiding citizen that anytime we sort of floated the idea. The movie we're doing tomorrow night in Philly. Really? Wow. Have I seen that? Is that the Jamie Foxx one? Yeah. Gerard Butler. Yeah. And it's F. Gary Gray. Yes. Oh, is it? Yeah. I didn't realize that. I haven't watched it yet.

2:48:12Griffin Newman:Is that going to be any good? It was like a hit.

2:48:13Jason Mantzoukas:It was a hit. It was. I remember when it came out, people were talking. This is the new seven. Yeah. Like this is like the way it was like. It was like a. Right. Like, you know, it was like that. Like, I forget. It's got a big twist. Right.

2:48:27Griffin Newman:It's like he's done a scheme that's like he gets put in prison. and then he comes out and he can do bad things or whatever. We're going to figure it out tomorrow.

2:48:35Jason Mantzoukas:We watched Monkey Bone today, which, wow. Yeah, F. Gary Gray.

2:48:39Griffin Newman:I mean, the problem with that Monkey Bone,

2:48:41Jason Mantzoukas:it's just so normal and regular. I wish they'd loosen up. I'm going to say this tonight on stage. I imagine it's the, we've been doing this show for 15 years. How did this get made? It's the first time I literally wrote down in my notes, how did this get made? Like, how did it, like, go past? I don't understand how the script was written. and I don't understand how anyone signed on to it. I don't understand any. I was like, and this is not like from the 1970s. No, no, we've seen it. Oh, they did it on this show. Oh, Henry Selleck. Oh, wow.

2:49:13David Sims:It's also, it's one of the greatest, better, all the years of therapy and analysis and psychiatric work I've done. Rarely has someone nailed me to the wall as hard as Sims when I was talking about how much I loved this movie when it came out as a child. and he was like it makes perfect sense that the chaos in your brain how if you have described feeling when you were a child that monkey bone would feel like a relief monkey bone calmed the noise if only I could be in the underworld everyone else is like popping Advil watching that movie and that my brain was like 17 different like cartoon alarm clocks all doing like routines I was like oh monkey balls monkey balls kind of settling monkey balls monkey balls is a good one monkey bone is a dick I mean that represents sense a penis.

2:50:00David Sims:JJ just he has always been like if I were to publish these I would go about them a very different way because he respects. I get it. I think that

2:50:10Jason Mantzoukas:sometimes it's like it may just be nice to have just the straight up links to something like without the bigger pieces like the love movies death and stuff like that. Drop links in the description.

2:50:20David Sims:Yeah we do that as well as the newsletter. The newsletter is great. Able to sort of hand select some of that. But some of the dossier gets messy. And JJ starts editorializing.

2:50:34Griffin Newman:Oh, that's great. I love that. He does. I like a little JJ aside.

2:50:37David Sims:Yeah, but just a little bit. Just a little. And we should say that this week he did too much and thus he is fire.

2:50:42Griffin Newman:Oh, wow.

2:50:44David Sims:I guess I guess. Sad to let him go.

2:50:46Griffin Newman:It's a shame. He's in the cart. He's in the carriage.

2:50:50Jason Mantzoukas:Next stop. Drop him in the river. How heavy a rock? How heavy a rock is JJ? He is a pretty heavy rock. Here we go. Yep. Now, I'll ask you all a question. Yeah. As you talked about on, what's the Big Lebowski episode? Yeah, where, you know, John Turturro obviously goes off and makes his movie, the Jesus movie. Of course. Is there a character in this that you would like, because we talked about. That isn't Buster Scruggs? Yeah. Oh, I want a movie about now rich Tom Waits. That is a great.

2:51:21Griffin Newman:Like Chester Lampwick in the Simpsons episode with a solid gold car or whatever. He's rich. How is he different? I love that. Everything has to work out. Everything. But it's like no conflict. It's him and the owl. It's him and the owl.

2:51:38Jason Mantzoukas:I mean, it's very Beverly Hills bellies, if you think of it, but a different era.

2:51:42David Sims:Beyond all the obvious reasons why the Waits segment is such like Ben Bate, like, you know, old coot digging. Oh, yeah. Right? Right. Tom Waits himself. It's a fucking, it's wet, too. Yeah, but it also is a everything works out. It is a guy who seems destined for failure and death. And at the end, he leaves with a bunch of fucking gold. By the way, I'm not. You're always asking movies to do.

2:52:05Jason Mantzoukas:I will. You know, I'm not advertising Sora, but I did see you could, you know, you could get in this store and just put those jeans in there, too. You could actually make this segment. No, no. Right up your alley. It has to be real. Because I just saw, which I'll show you a post episode, something posted Randy Macho Man Savage in Revenge of the Sith. And it is. Like, what? It is. This is the whole problem with AI. You're like, that sounds good. And I watch it and I was like, wow, for a multitude of reasons. Wait, is he just inserted or is he taking the place of? Is he General Grievous? It's the final scene with, you know, it's with.

2:52:44Jason Mantzoukas:Mustafar lava battle? It's like, Anakin, you were my brother. Oh, yeah. He's doing the lines. I mean, I'll play you a section of it. You can hear a section of it just to hear it. But he's doing the lines.

2:52:59David Sims:I like you're saying he's doing the lines as if it isn't like fucking CGI necromancy. What a fucking bummer. What a bummer. This is so interesting to me. What a bummer. This sounds awesome.

2:53:09Griffin Newman:This is another reason you should stay off social media, Jason. There's less ability to manipulate you.

2:53:20Griffin Newman:That is effective. Terrifying. I hate you! Wait, who's taking the Hayden role?

2:53:28Jason Mantzoukas:I think it's Hayden. It's Hayden.

2:53:31Griffin Newman:Oh, that's funny as hell. Yeah, no, I mean, this is what AI is for. I want to see Leon Kennedy from Resident Evil 4 attend the Met Ball. That's all you've ever wanted to do. Anyway, I'm sorry. There's a world where you could redo it. I wanted that to happen. All right. All right. And our fans have always been so normal about our use of AI. I'm being clear. We hate AI. We hate AI. We reject it. I want to be unequivocal about this.

2:53:53David Sims:Paul, can you send me that letter? I hate AI as it's used in creative pursuits. But boy, am I down for AI in crunching data for medical research and all manner of other things that it is great at. This is the whole problem. It's like there's three things we wanted to do. and a tremendous amount of money is being spent on the exact things we don't need. In the 10 years, we're about to get a lot of cures for catastrophic diseases and a tremendous amount of dog shit content. That's the problem.

2:54:25Jason Mantzoukas:You're going to get a lot of shit posting. I mean, that 20 second thing is a shit post that just happens to be... What is the company that just said they're going to put out 500 AI podcasts? Yeah. That's called Blank Check Productions. Baby, we're doing it! No, it's so crazy. We want to be very clear.

2:54:41David Sims:We hate AI. Stay tuned for our slate of AI shows launching 2026. You ever want a podcast that's just 500 llamas? We got one of those.

2:54:49Griffin Newman:It's AI Marie Barty. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. We actually fed her all the way. We just pushed her in for the phone.

2:54:56David Sims:We bought exclusive rights to her laugh, which will be replicated onto other podcasts. It's her laugh and Seth Rogen's laugh. Great laugh. Just head to head.

2:55:04Griffin Newman:It is a shame we didn't have them in the same room. You want to wrap up, David? I do need to wrap up soon, but we should play the box office game before we do Cohen's top 10 sheer.

2:55:12David Sims:I want to say to Paul's point, Jesus Rolls is to Turow saying, Cohen's, do you mind if I take this character and run with it? If Tim Blake Nelson said tomorrow, hey, would you let me make a full Buster Scruggs movie? I would not be concerned about that.

2:55:27Jason Mantzoukas:Yeah, you know, I think you'd have to figure out how does it sustain? Because it is a Bugs Bunny short.

2:55:35Griffin Newman:Maybe it can't.

2:55:36Jason Mantzoukas:I mean, maybe it can't.

2:55:36David Sims:I'm not saying he should, But I trust him as a writer and director enough that if he said, I want to see if I can do Buster Scruggs on my own, I wouldn't immediately say red alert in the way that Totoro announcing I'm making a sex comedy of the Jesus on a road trip was like, this is only

2:55:53Jason Mantzoukas:bad ideas. No, I agree. I feel like there. But this is like a world in which. But I wish that they would make more shorts and almost like that Netflix would allow like a Coen Brothers short channel like every you know, it's like, you know, they make one thing. It doesn't have to be big. It's just like a 15 minute. I mean, it's unrealistic, but I would love to see that kind of collaboration with them.

2:56:15David Sims:Our friend, the aforementioned Conor Atleff, has said that he thinks the high points of this are amongst the best stuff the Coens have ever done, and that he feels like if it had been released as separate shorts, that it would sort of stand in greater estimation, because some of these are just really pleasant to rewatch and really easily revisible. And obviously, the point is putting them all together and the greater conclusion they come to, right, and the thematic connections and echoes. But some of these are like tough hangs. Right. And you're like, you know, fucking meal ticket's incredible, but you don't like...

2:56:48David Sims:You're not gonna pop that in. You're not inclined to fire it up. I have watched the Buster Scruggs segment upwards of 10 times. This is the second time I've ever seen meal ticket. I think that's understandable.

2:56:57Griffin Newman:Yeah. Yeah, right. That makes sense. And even Mortal Remains, which I love, I only love it as the capper to this movie. It doesn't work on its own. You wouldn't watch it on its own, but boy, I would send someone the Tom Waits one, the Buster Scruggs one, as individual... and maybe the Franco one.

2:57:15David Sims:But we reduced it to a gif. We have the Franco one and the most palatable. I do hear that

2:57:20Griffin Newman:Netflix is building a theme park and that the carriage ride will be a part of it. By the way, in many respects,

2:57:26Jason Mantzoukas:the Franco gif is the chicken. The Franco gif is the chicken.

2:57:31Griffin Newman:And thank you for saying that, Paul. Well said. Now this film came out. He did a good job. He did a good job. Film came out November 9th, 9th, 2018. Louis C.K. and I were seated. Obviously, Netflix did not report its box office at all, but it was not number one at the box office. Number one was an animated film based on a children's classic story, Griffin, that this movie made you feel normal and regular. It's the Peanuts movie? No. I have it. Harold and the Purple Cran? Nope. Okay, it's 2018. What month? Oh, that was his act. What month, you said? November. November.

2:58:08David Sims:And I tazzed out over this one?

2:58:09Griffin Newman:You didn't like some of the things going on in this one. I've never seen it.

2:58:13David Sims:I didn't like some of the things.

2:58:14Griffin Newman:You didn't like the star. You didn't like the voice he was doing.

2:58:17David Sims:Oh, this is Benedict Cumberbatch as The Grinch.

2:58:19Griffin Newman:This is the Illumination The Grinch movie. I don't like that one. I've never seen it.

2:58:25Jason Mantzoukas:I've watched it many, many times. It made about$500 million. Oh, wow. This is right in the wheelhouse of my kids. Sure. Tyler, the creator, does a song. You're mean with Mr. Grinch. Here's what I will say. He does. Oh, yes. I do not like the retconning That we like the Ron Howard Grinch they're re-releasing it The one I like is the fucking

2:58:47Griffin Newman:Cartoon

2:58:50Jason Mantzoukas:But they're re-releasing that In theaters this Christmas I'm like no no no

2:58:54Griffin Newman:I agree with you That movie was a colossal hit The Ron Howard film

2:59:00Jason Mantzoukas:It's Ron Howard

2:59:01Griffin Newman:I think it was a little bit like It's Christmas time the Grinch is here There is a nostalgia for people of a certain age that that movie aired when they were young and now they're going to show it to their kids. That movie,

2:59:14David Sims:you also, like, that was the highest grossing film of its year. It was a ginormous blockbuster.

2:59:19Jason Mantzoukas:And they built a section of park at Universal. They have not taken over. It's still there. Whoville is still there, part of Horror Nights.

2:59:26David Sims:I also think it's interesting that, like, Universal was like, we're going to make this fucking animated Grinch because people have complaints about the Jim Carrey one and maybe we can make a better definitive Grinch movie and replace the stuff in our parks. Like, it felt like that was part of the impetus was let's have a new representation of Grinch. Because of the illumination, yeah. The movie quietly makes$500 million and Universal has gone back to Jim Carrey Grinch. Like, everything in the parks, the merch, everything. I would never have been able to pull that. I have no recollection of it even existing.

2:59:55Is that, like... I've seen it about 17 times.

2:59:57David Sims:After Boris Karloff did the fucking Chuck Jones animated version, they announced Ben to Cumberbatch and I'm like, makes sense. Perfect voice for Grinch. I see the first trailer. he's like, I don't like Christmas. And I'm like, why does he sound like me? Why hire Benedict Cumberbatch and have him sound like me? He should sound like Smaug. He should. You're a mean one, Mr. Smaug. I find presents annoying. Sometimes they bounce, baby.

3:00:25Griffin Newman:Number two at the box office is a, it was a big hit. A film was a big hit. One Oscars. One Oscars. It is very bad. Is it Bohemian Rhapsody? There we go.

3:00:34Jason Mantzoukas:There we go. My favorite thing about Bohemian Rhapsody was when it won best editing for the Oscar. Well, it did have the most editing. Quantity-wise. When people put it together. It's a volume award. It was mind-blowing. Because I did not sit through that. I did not subject myself to that full film.

3:00:52David Sims:This is so weird. I just Googled who directed Bohemian Rhapsody and my iPad caught on fire.

3:00:57Griffin Newman:I will never forget the whole nightmare, obviously, that movie's production has already unfolded in the press. And then they're like, come to the press screening. I go to, you know, they're kind of like, here's Bohemian. I go to it. I was like, F that movie, like, so glad I don't have to think about this again. And then it won Academy Awards. Can you believe it? It was a giant hit. Does that? Because Queen is like, here's my question. No, no. Here's my question. Because I think about this all the time when I'm listening to you guys talk about it. Does that ever? Because I have really, in my adulthood, lost faith in awards, lost faith in the Oscars, lost faith in the Emmys.

3:01:34Griffin Newman:This is communicating quality. These are not, these awards do not delineate what are the best or most interesting or deserving movies whatsoever. Does Bohemian Rhapsody or Green Book or any of these other awards cause you to lose faith? Yeah, that was a pretty bad year. Cause you to lose faith in the institution of the Oscars. Sure, a little bit.

3:01:56Jason Mantzoukas:I have given, my friend gave me a tip many, many years ago to do any Oscar pool. And it's been very good for me, which is just go by look at it and be like, who's the biggest name? What title sounds interesting? You'll always win short film because a majority of choices are people that are just like, oh, yeah, that person's in a show. Great. Like, it's the reason why I think SNL is cleaned up in the supporting actor category. Because it's like, oh, Bad Bunny was on SNL.

3:02:25David Sims:I bet Tiffany Haddish did a good job. That sounds like she would have done that well.

3:02:30Jason Mantzoukas:Right. And it's like, oh, it's and not that not that she's not, but it is a funny, interesting thing that I think it is just people just going down. I think there's a lot of people who watch it. I think a lot of people care about it. But I think a majority of people are just going on odd gut choices.

3:02:43David Sims:There was that year that Ellen Burstyn got a supporting actress nomination for an HBO movie from the Emmys. One second. It is. It is a sub 10 second cameo. And she was just like, clearly, they just saw my name on a list and said, she's probably good in that.

3:02:58Jason Mantzoukas:Don Cheadle got nominated for Best Supporting Actor in the Captain America. He's good in that Winter Soldier. Falcon and Winter Soldier, yes. Walks through a museum and probably on screen for two minutes.

3:03:11David Sims:He's weirdly on screen longer than he was on set. No, I think the Oscars are in a weird place where they've made such a push to diversify their ranks and go younger and more international, more diverse and weirder. and try to expand the taste of their voting body because it had become so old and calcified. And what happens now is it feels like there's a pendulum swing every couple of years where you get a year like this, where you're like all dog shit. Green Book, best picture. And then you get Parasite. And then you get Shears Parasite.

3:03:43Jason Mantzoukas:So it's a weird back and forth. I also think it's reflective of the time. Like this year is going to be interesting because it's like, what's really out there? What's going to be coming up for most normies is a bunch of movies they don't know. It's like the train dreams and Hedda and all that sort of stuff. It's going to be like, no one's going to see that. But the movies that the two, yeah, Hamnet, like it's going to be sinners in one battle. And I would argue that one battle, as much as I love it, is not going to be even on most people's radar. Sinners is going to be the only movie this year that is going to make any.

3:04:15David Sims:And are Wicked and Avatar going to get in there? But are they going to get in there as a sort of consolation prize? Yeah. You don't really have a chance of winning nomination. Green Book 2. Green Book 2 is stealthily. the next chapter. A strong contender. I like it. I mean, it's fun. It's deeper. Keep booking.

3:04:31Griffin Newman:It's good. Green Book 2, hardly booking. Number three at the box office. A bit of a forgotten film. It's new this week. It's an action horror film. Action horror? Yes. A period action horror? It's a war horror movie. It's a war? Not Shadow in the Cloud. Is it Overlord? Overlord. Oh. A Julius Avery movie.

3:04:55David Sims:Yes, I weirdly fell down a rabbit hole Wikipedia last night of Julius Avery was announced in 2020 to reboot Van Helsing Sure I don't remember how I got there, I was going down a Van Helsing thing But so Overlord Top of Mind

3:05:13Jason Mantzoukas:Only for that reason I was going to say, we did it last night

3:05:17Griffin Newman:He since then has done Samaritan the Nicolas Cage superhero movie that's kind of forgotten No, was that Stallone? Yeah, sorry, what am I talking about? Stallone. Yeah, not Cage. And then The Pope's Exorcist, of course. Oh, yes. Which we also did on the podcast.

3:05:30Jason Mantzoukas:By the way, Samaritan was a direct rip of a movie that I had done, Arch Enemy. That was, that I was like, it was almost shot. The trailer was cut the same way, too. It was very interesting. Manganiello. Yes, exactly. Yeah.

3:05:45Griffin Newman:No, the thing about Overlord, which I've never seen and heard was like, okay, kind of like fun, silly, goofy, gory stuff is that it was initially going to be another Cloverfield movie.

3:05:53David Sims:It was going to be World War II Cloverfield, and then the response to Cloverfield Paradox was so bad. That they were like, let's stop calling things Cloverfield. Versus it being like, this helps sell original spec script movies if you tie them into the Cloverfield and use that branding. They were like, fuck, we ruined the branding. Yeah.

3:06:09Griffin Newman:Number four, The Box Office is a normal Disney family movie. Normal. Everyone remembers. Normal. Mm-hmm. It's not a live-action remake.

3:06:18David Sims:No. But it has that vibe. Sure. Is it Nutcracker and the Four Realms? There you go. There we go.

3:06:23Griffin Newman:Wow.

3:06:24David Sims:Now you are one of three credit directors. Right.

3:06:26Griffin Newman:Lassie Hallstrom did two of the realms. Joe Johnson did one. I did a realm. He did a realm. It was my joke back in the day. You picked up a realm as a figure. But that was a true, I think, classic Disney where they're like, let's do a Nutcracker movie. And they're like, okay, great. Any other ideas on casting story? And they're like, oh, just start production. Throw a couple realms in there. We'll figure it out. I don't know whether they're going to have gowns and stuff. Like, it's fine. Like, it just, because they fired Hallstrom and replaced him with Joe Johnson, I think. Extensive reshoots were overseen by Joe Johnson.

3:06:53Griffin Newman:like Morgan Freeman's there he's got like an iPad or something yeah

3:06:56David Sims:yeah yeah

3:06:58Griffin Newman:never seen it my daughter does love the Nutcracker I watched the Macaulay Culkin one sure that one's fun yeah that one's good number five at the box office oh one of my favorite movies of 2018 truly or for and I just attended an intimate dinner with its director Bradley Cooper is it A Star is Born A Star is Born obviously a gigantic hit it's been out for six weeks since made 178 million dollars oh well did it end up at two it ended up making I don't know I mean it definitely yeah another 215 domestic another best song nomination in here against Beat Bust a totally normal performance of it that poof that was one of those true like the Oscars do rock yeah it's like this is insane that I'm watching this

3:07:42Jason Mantzoukas:and that's and that is why I feel like the spectacle of the Oscars will still you'll always get something good

3:07:50David Sims:yeah yeah

3:07:50Jason Mantzoukas:you will get something good.

3:07:52David Sims:I'm hopeful this year. Especially in 10 years when they let Will Smith back in the building.

3:07:56Griffin Newman:That's when you're going to be guaranteed something good. I just did my hands out. Yeah. Like two big slappers. Two big slappers.

3:08:06Jason Mantzoukas:I mean, I still, we talked about this on How Did This Get Made? I love his mea culpa to that in Bad Boys 4 where he does like kind of address, it's like Martin slaps him and it's like now we've made peace with the slap. And then that was one of the things I've made. And I think it was because of COVID. Like, I've really made a turn on my, was it that bad? I mean, it was. Well, it's one of those things where. Excuse me, Paul, he could have killed me.

3:08:31Griffin Newman:I mean, like. Where people got a little too hysterical in the other direction of like. And I was like. He's under attack. You are not allowed. Right. No, no. It's as the Oscars charge the stage to start hitting people. I agree. I agree. It is categorically insane. It's definitely not the done thing to when someone is presenting. Be like, oh, I think I'm going to come hit you.

3:08:50Jason Mantzoukas:And I think the difference is, is like, look, we were all in COVID. There's a lot of shit going on. Oh, shit was going on. And I do think it just got, it was amped up so much that I think.

3:09:02Griffin Newman:We had less things to talk about.

3:09:03Jason Mantzoukas:Yes. And when I looked at it again or thought about it again, I was like, yes, what you're saying, you should not be charging a stage and slapping anybody in the face. Etiquette, you know. Right. Don't do that. But it was viewed as like, this man. oh like if you were if you were to hear it you'd be like he beat the shit out of this person

3:09:22David Sims:there was a live murder yeah it was I saw that at Marie Barty's Oscar party and it was mostly the Barty party it was a literal Barty party and it was mostly like film people people who work in film people who write about film people study film everyone in there was just like a hardcore movie nerd and there was an hour and a half of people as if it was like the Zapruder film oh yeah Breaking down like, wait, what happened and why? I wasn't even watching it. I mean, I'm like, I'm so out on this stuff. Divorce from the Oscars. I really haven't been watching it. And one of my like film guy text chains blew up.

3:09:59Hey, are you guys watching this? Did you get, was that a bit? Do you think that was a bit? And I had to tune in. It was all we were debating.

3:10:03David Sims:It felt like there was a collective like hallucination. And until he got up to accept the award, we were like, at some point, we're going to get some answer. And the second he got up and started crying, and said like, Richard Williams, protect his family. Everyone just gasped and went, oh my God, it was real. Like he said the first line and we went, oh my God, it was real.

3:10:25Jason Mantzoukas:Well, I was, I am friends with Regina and Will Smith. But when she was, so she was hosting that year.

3:10:31Griffin Newman:She was, she and Schumer, right? We're like, get us on stage. What the fuck? Right.

3:10:35Jason Mantzoukas:And so we were, we, the Black Monday cast was on a text chain, all like kind of rooting on and then. Doing great, Regina. Show's normal. And then it was like that. I think if it was if I'm correct in saying it, that's a bit right. And it was like, no, like we did get verification. Hardcore.

3:10:53David Sims:That was not that that must have been an astounding text received from someone in the room.

3:10:59Jason Mantzoukas:It was because it was like because the way it was also displayed. I remember like sound dropped out. Yeah, it was a weird camera cut. And it was like and then you got up and there was like that shot where it was like somebody was talking to Will Smith in the corner. and it was Bradley Cooper and you could only re-watch it on the Australian feed that was what was weird

3:11:22Griffin Newman:this guy got crikey that's not a slap you beat me to it number 6 just to wrap up we should do our Cones rankings we've been podcasting for 3 hours number 6 of course this week the very good idea of doing the girl in the spiders web this let's do a sequel to Girl with a Dragon Tattoo by adapting the fourth book written not by the guy with a different actor. And an infinitely valuable Cinematrix play.

3:11:46David Sims:I scored off of it today. Nobody remembers. No one remembers.

3:11:49Griffin Newman:Number seven is Nobody's Fool. Is that Kevin Hart? No, Tiffany Haddish. That's Haddish. Regina, is it? Wait, who is it? Nobody's Fool, the Paul Newman movie? No, that's the problem. Is it Tika Sumter? Tika Sumter, Tiffany Haddish. And Whoopi Goldberg. Amari Hardwick and Whoopi Goldberg. And she's got a wig on and she's kind of going like this. Whoopi Goldberg. At the foolishness, I assume.

3:12:10David Sims:has a bit in the trailer that is so fucking funny.

3:12:13Griffin Newman:This is a Tyler Perry film.

3:12:15David Sims:But it was Tyler Perry at Paramount where he didn't usually make his films. Right, kind of doing

3:12:18Griffin Newman:what looks like a pretty ordinary rom-com kind of thing. Right, it was sort of him

3:12:22David Sims:trying to do more of a normal comedy in a Tiffany Haddish vehicle and not the Tyler Perry thing. I don't know if it veers into faith-based lessons towards the end. No, yeah,

3:12:31Jason Mantzoukas:because I was trying to remember that was one of those movies where, again, it's still in the top ten so it's making money but it also was not... No. Yeah, it was not...

3:12:39David Sims:And it was just sold as another Tiffany Haddish movie. Right. There's a bit where they, I believe Whoopi Goldberg plays their sisters and plays their mother, I think. There's a bit where they go to visit the mom and they're yelling at her. And she starts acting like the phone has dropped out and she can't hear them. That sounds funny. And then they go, you're not on the phone. We're talking to you through a window. That's funny. And she's miming that she can't hear them. That sounds funny.

3:13:03Griffin Newman:It's really good. I just. That's all I've seen. She's a national treasure. Whoopi rolls. And I always someone today just posted the famous thing she said on marriage to some interview. I don't want someone to sleep in my house. No, it's just I don't want someone in my house. I think about it all the time. Number eight at the box office is Venom. He's there. He's been doing great. Number nine is the David Gordon Green Halloween giant hit. Number 10 is The Hate U Give, which I feel like was they, you know, hoped for hit and wasn't really hit the young adult. It's a young adult movie based on a sort of a hit book.

3:13:36Griffin Newman:Yes, and that was a lot. Amand Listerberg. Regina Hall's in that. And I saw it. It's okay. It's very, very serious. It's a shooting, right? Yes, yes. Very sort of sensitive, serious teens wrestling with deep issues movie. It's not very good. Yeah. It's okay. That is that. But Griffin, I know you're looking at your phone for this reason. This is not our last episode in this miniseries. But we're kind of treating the next three as bonuses. split up and did three movies,

3:14:07Jason Mantzoukas:which we will cover. Oh, that was the question I was going to ask.

3:14:10Griffin Newman:It's not our finale for the Coen.

3:14:12Jason Mantzoukas:Will you do them each gets their own, Macbeth gets its own episode? They're all recorded. Okay. We did them. We have them in the can.

3:14:18Griffin Newman:Driveway Dolls, Honey Don't. Okay. But we will do our top, our Coen's rankings now. Okay, I have done mine as well in the last 10 minutes. Fantastic. I knew you were playing with your phone and I was like, Jason's up to something.

3:14:31David Sims:Like, feels terrible. I'm looking at this list and it feels wrong, but I it's crazy any move feels like how could I there's no right answer here and let me be clear this is what I'm sort of putting as my ranking of what I consider their best works obviously Hotsucker Proxy is my favorite film of theirs you can do favorites one of my favorite movies well you do what you want there's a universe in which I put that at number one

3:14:53Griffin Newman:Griff is there a movie before you do your list that rose high during the re-recording of this or that dropped or is there anything like that like a sort of canonical fave I want to say, I mean, but like, it's so arbitrary. It is a little bit.

3:15:08David Sims:I feel like Raising Arizona dropped a little and Lebowski went up for me. I had the exact same reaction. But I mean, like, but I love them both. Both masterpieces, in my opinion. I have Lady Killers last. I will say I put Tragedy of Macbeth and Driveway Dolls ahead of Lady Killers. Sure, sure. Those are not in my rankings. Yeah, yeah, get them off. That's for my master ranking.

3:15:27Griffin Newman:I hear you, I hear you.

3:15:28David Sims:For the sake of this series, Lady Killers. Lady Killers last. Then Intolerable Cruelty. Oh, shit. No, everything past the, and by the way, I think Entalber Cruelty is great. Past this point, every movie I'm going to list sounds like it's an insult to put it this low. And it's truly just an embarrassment of riches. I then have Blood Simple, Scruggs, True Grit. You're True Grit that low? Okay, keep going. This is what I'm saying.

3:15:54Griffin Newman:Keep going, keep going, keep going.

3:15:54David Sims:Raising Arizona, Miller's Crossing, Oh Brother, Where Art Thou? And so now that was 11th. Right. My 10, Man Who Wasn't There, great movie. 9, Burn After Reading. 8, Lebowski. 7, Barton Fink. 6, Hail Caesar. I put Podsucker at 5 with me trying to be objective. But it's number one in my heart. But then there are four movies that I just think are stone cold, like just undeniable masterworks. Number four, No Country. Number three, A Serious Man. number two Fargo number one inside Llewyn Davis that's where I land wow that's their best film in my opinion Hudsucker's my favorite that's the distinction

3:16:42Griffin Newman:I want should I do mine? yeah you should do alright I have Lady Killers last then Burn After Reading sorry then Man Who Wasn't There sorry then Buster Scruggs then Intolerable Cruelty all the way up at 14 then Hail Caesar now we're just in movies I love territory man I put Hail Caesar a lot higher than you you did? yeah then Oh Brother at 12 Blood Simple 11 my 10 are 10 Hudsucker 9 Raising Arizona 8 Miller's Crossing 7 No Country 6 Llewyn Davis my 5 are very different from yours 5 Big Lebowski 4 Serious Man 3 True Grit all the way up there 2 Fargo 1 Barton Fink that's me nobody yell at me

3:17:24David Sims:like our ranking is are incredibly different and yet I'm like I don't think you're wrong about that you're not mad at me so mine falls into To the truly, these are, I cannot separate my true love for some of these from. It's allowed. Yeah. So distinction are like millimeters. You know, especially when we get into that top six or seven. Lady killers is obviously number one with a bullet for you. Number one, intolerable cruelty. Number two. No, lady killers, intolerable cruelty are at the bottom for me. Man who wasn't there. Buster Scruggs, Burn After Reading These all could kind of be in any order But they are all in that lower third Burn After Reading And then True Grit They're chunked to me True Grit, Hail Caesar, Oh Brother Are like that middle category And then it gets into Blood Simple, Llewyn Davis Raising Arizona Barton Fink And then for me Fargo, A Serious Man no country Lebowski Miller's Crossing Miller's Crossing Miller's Crossing is my number one just because it is baked in it's the movie it's their movie that I've seen the most yeah and I've seen Lebowski a lot and I've seen Miller's Crossing more Owen Burke our friend Owen Burke yeah watches Miller's Crossing every year on St.

3:18:48Patrick's Day he told me this years ago and I've instituted it as well and it's a blast that is a great way it's a great revisit and I just it's one of those movies that I know every line of. It is, I know every corner. I love that movie. Even though I know that many of these movies are inarguably better movies, No Country especially, Fargo especially, Miller's Crossing just has its hooks in me, as does Lebowski. Lebowski is so baked into, like when I need a feel-good watch to just disappear into, it is always Lebowski. You had Fargo at three? I had Fargo at five. Wow. I have Miller's Crossing is one.

3:19:30Lebowski is two. No Country is three. A Serious Man is four. Because I just think that is dynamite. Incredible film. And Fargo is five. Yeah. And I mean, like a lot of these, I couldn't. If you said to me, reorder those five in a different way, I could happily own it. You know? Yeah. These are all unimpeachably just masterpieces by my estimation. I agree with that.

3:19:50Jason Mantzoukas:Yeah. This is too quick for me to do it. I think that that that and I but I won't but I think I want to take a moment and say that when you ask men's health what their ranking of the Coen brothers. You appreciate you. Yes. Yes. And I do appreciate you. I've been asking.

3:20:05David Sims:They haven't gone back to me.

3:20:06Jason Mantzoukas:They rate them from one to six abs. Yes. It's an abs. You know, the number one for them is is going to be Fargo. That's men's health right now. Great. Great one. I'm going to but I'm going to maybe show you where they go a little bit off the rails. Maybe, you know. So Vulture put Intolerable Cruelty in the top 10. Yeah, I think that everybody has to kind of do that. Men's Health did put Burn After Reading number six.

3:20:33Griffin Newman:You know, some people love Burn After Reading a lot. I really, I have no problems with Burn After Reading.

3:20:39Jason Mantzoukas:Before Serious Man. That's a little wild. That's crazy. That's a little wild. The last, the J.K. Simmons, David Rasche scene of that movie is incredible. Lights out.

3:20:49Griffin Newman:It absolutely makes the movie for me. I will say also just to know, like ranking Coen Brothers movies is like the quickest way, at least back when Twitter was somewhat usable to just get everyone frothing. You would just be kind of like, I think Barton Fink's my favorite Coen's. And then something, you know, one hour later, people are like, what's your address? I'm going to come kill you. Like, and even though we're all arguing over all movies that we all love, basically.

3:21:14David Sims:I just got a tracking notice from anthrax.com. I love it. So I remember seeing Barton Fink in the theater and being like, what the fuck is going on? I am jealous. This is incredible, I think. Like, I just, like the John Goodman performance, because at the time, I hadn't seen him do anything like this. It was Dan Carr. He was, it was unbelievable. You know, what a, I loved that movie.

3:21:38Jason Mantzoukas:Yeah, no, it's like, what order do I put five-star masterpieces in? Exactly. I'm gonna make a shocking admission, never saw Barton Fink. Oh, well, you know what, Paul? Now you have the best kind of homework. Yes, well, that is, That is, I don't know what it is. I've seen every single Coen Brothers movie.

3:21:55Griffin Newman:You have such a good one. Great night out. And as someone, Paul, who works in Hollywood and I feel like knows a lot about how it works and has a lot of opinions on how it should work, Barton Fink's going to feel the same. And I'm surprised just as a Wallace Beery wrestling fan that you haven't watched. You love Wallace Beery wrestling.

3:22:10Jason Mantzoukas:But it was one of those movies that I felt like, oh, you know what? I do this sometimes. I'm like, I'll wait until I can see it properly. Yeah, I get that. I didn't see the Godfather movies until I saw them at Film Forum in New York. So as an adult, because I wanted to wait until I could see it in a theater. I knew it would matter. Yeah. I watch it on my Apple Watch. That's so cool.

3:22:32David Sims:You want to see Barton Fink and then you hear really bad feedback from Bart Simpson and his friends. And they just completely discouraged you from going. And Naked Lunch, that's why you've never seen Naked Lunch either.

3:22:41Jason Mantzoukas:Same thing. Bart really shit on that one. It's also great to see. like I have a painting of Hudsucker Proxy in my house I love it I love it so much and it was one of those movies that I felt like when I saw it it liking it made me like cause everyone was like oh Raising Arizona Raising Arizona and you felt like oh there's no but I like this nobody's arguing for this one I was part of it cause I'm like a full step older than you guys Hudsucker to me felt like a betrayal

3:23:11Griffin Newman:that was the you're rubbing your hands you can't wait the cones made a big movie and then you're like what the fuck was that? And I was like, what the fuck is this?

3:23:17David Sims:And before the lady killers and Top of Cruelty back to back, it was like that was the consensus, obviously.

3:23:22Griffin Newman:It was a falter. It felt like a misstep. Have you watched it? Oh, yeah. Many times. Many times. And I think it's wonderful. But in that moment, I can totally understand. I was like, what the fuck, guys?

3:23:33David Sims:Can I say this as a closing statement? Because we recorded our episode and then we, Ben, Marie, and I went out to LA and introduced a screening with the American Cinema Tag. Did this intro and I saw it again, Project on 35. Anytime I see it screening, I see it, right? But these Coen's movies, as we talk about, every time you watch them, I get different stuff out of them. They go up and down in my rankings at levels of greatness, right? But certain elements jump out to me more. I have different readings. Maybe I get certain plot details wrong because I'm paying attention to one thing. But watching Hudsucker on the big screen that time, like something clicked in it for me that I'd never really thought about before.

3:24:10David Sims:And especially knowing that it was a script they wrote early with Raimi that they couldn't get made and with all their clout, they're like, we get to do this, is I think that movie is about like how to become successful without becoming an asshole.

3:24:23Griffin Newman:Right, right, right, right. You can't let go of the. Yeah, absolutely.

3:24:28David Sims:And these guys who people often miscategorize as being very judgmental of their characters and condescending. I'm like the way they treat Norville in the section of the movie where he becomes full of his own shit and high on his own supply is like the most disdain they have shown for any character, like even more so in a way than like Anton Chigurh, right? Where they're like, this is the absolute cautionary tale of we just like making hula hoops and we want everyone to enjoy hula hoops. And how do we do that and ascend to levels of success without becoming this guy and needing to like fall off the side of a building and reclaim our humanity?

3:25:04David Sims:And I think you like step back and you look and you're like, these guys had this fucking career working together for 30 plus years, made like basically 20 masterpieces and just like stayed true to themselves the entire fucking time. And even like say whatever you want about Lady Killers. That is very much their movie.

3:25:23Griffin Newman:We have never done a career as... Nothing's like this. Here we are at the end of your series. At the end of your series, talking about a movie that while we might quibble with you know, it might be a little uneven segment to segment vignette to vignette, there was still so much in this that was wonderful. We could have talked about it for another four hours. Have you ever done a series that is, because I feel like by the end of most series, you guys are cooked because now you're stuck with the dregs.

3:25:51David Sims:And this was as long a series as we've done, basically. Pretty much. I mean, the solos are a little closer to being dregs for us.

3:25:58Griffin Newman:Yeah, right. Get ready for those three episodes where we are beginning to grasp. But that's a different story. You could have not done those or done those on the Patreon. as all three of the, or all four of the, or three of those in one episode. Like, they are not the same. Maybe these are good ideas that we should have listened to.

3:26:15Jason Mantzoukas:Do you feel like in those three films, or do you have any research, and not to tease this for the audience, that they give each other notes on their solo films?

3:26:24Griffin Newman:No, I don't think so. I've heard nothing to that effect. I've never heard anything like that.

3:26:27Jason Mantzoukas:That's interesting to me, to be like, to have such a close, because I'm also fascinated with the Safdies too, and it's like, oh, I don't know.

3:26:35Griffin Newman:Dude, the Safdies, having seen both those movies, it's the same thing as what the Coens were. Like, I see what each was bringing to the table. Right. And I think both of the movies they made a loader are really good, and I actually like them more than the Coens. But the balance is hard to replicate. But you're just like, right, this energy is here, and this energy is over here. And they used to be together, and now we're watching them. Do we know anything about the movie the Coens are working on together again? Nothing except that they're working on something new. Just that they are.

3:26:59David Sims:And that it's maybe a horror adjacent.

3:27:02Griffin Newman:Heard that, but who knows?

3:27:04David Sims:They tell a lot. And that also might be a loose starting point.

3:27:06Griffin Newman:It's turned into something else. It's exciting to consider. Oh, yeah. Another movie. But if this is their last movie, which is not impossible. It's impossible. I don't mind it as a last movie. Yeah.

3:27:17Jason Mantzoukas:I don't either.

3:27:17David Sims:I think it's a good final film. I hope we are wrong about that. They told a bunch of funny short stories.

3:27:24Jason Mantzoukas:Their whole filmography is funny little vignettes. I mean, they're movies. But I feel like it kind of encapsulates everything about them. I love it. What? I mean. Sorry, we made you. I have to go. No, let's wrap it. We literally have to do a show. Yeah, we have to do a show.

3:27:39David Sims:I'll also say I saw Ethan Coen on the street yesterday. Yesterday? Right before recording this, our final record. He looked so fucking cool. Oh, yeah. Because I think of him as being like the wormy little one. He was wearing sunglasses, leather jacket, cock of the walk. Where? I had like five inches on him easy. But he looked cool. Yeah, just walking around with the fucking Flatiron District. I love that. Yeah, Nomad. Looked rad as hell. Thank you guys for being here. Oh, what a pleasure. What a pleasure. Glad we made it work. It was, I knew you guys had some New York shows on the books. We were going to do this episode guest list, and I threw out to Sims, is it crazy if we see if they're free?

3:28:19David Sims:And knowing very often you guys are so busy, impossible to block out six hours to give an episode its proper space. Thrilled to have been able to be included in this. what is, I think, inarguably the best series you guys have done, both in terms of films and episodes. I think this is a blast. Amazing, yeah.

3:28:38Jason Mantzoukas:Really, truly fun. And I love this, too, because it's a chance to revisit. Yeah, the rewatches have been great. It's really great.

3:28:46David Sims:There's no better rewatch assignment than throwing all these movies out. This has been a blast. You guys have to do some dog shit next time. Yeah, you're doing dog shit next time. I'm joking. Is there anything specific you guys want to plug? How did this get made? Still going strong, baby Year 15 or 16 now, I can't remember I remember listening to that Burlesque episode That was one of the first ones Is Old Dogs in the first five? It's in the early ones It's the pilot that we never aired And then we did do it Okay, that's what I thought

3:29:17Griffin Newman:Burlesque, just at my old job Was it 09? This December will be 15 years My old dogs Congrats on the iHeart Award

3:29:27David Sims:decade and a half. Like, you know, look, this is, you know, we went out to the I heart awards in Austin, Texas. We're all dressed up. We think they're about to present our category. It basically happens in a montage in between awards. They go like, what was it? It was like Jameson asked you to raise a glass to podcast. Award for best ad read goes to Conan O 'Brien. Award for best film TV podcast. How did this get made? And we're just like, oh, they didn't even present it. Oh, my God. I assume, oh, they didn't present it because they asked you guys and you weren't going to show up. and I text you guys congrats and you said on what?

3:29:58David Sims:And we said you just won and you said won what? And I was like the iHeart and you were like for what category?

3:30:05Jason Mantzoukas:No awareness whatsoever. None. Zero awareness. Now I was at the first ever Astro Podcast Awards and we can talk about that later. Okay. I want to thank producer Ben for helping me with the I've Got a Bone segment and thanks to Zach Cherry for letting me do it. And maybe thank me

3:30:27David Sims:for the He-Man sunglasses as well. And thanks to Griff for the sunglasses, even though he didn't know he was doing that for the bit. What a blast. And thanks to Emma Erdbrich for helping us with the tune. Totally. And guys, by the way, just listen to those doughboys. Those stupid fucking doughboys. They need the bomb. They're doing great too. Another long-running guys. Doughboys, action boys, all the pod boys. Sloppy Boys No

3:30:57Griffin Newman:Jerky Boys Did you say that? I said Sloppy Boys Sloppy Boys But also listen to the Jerky Boys Jerky Boys as well

3:31:01David Sims:Bring it back Revisit Bring it back I'm sure it's aged beautifully Next week is Tragedy Macbeth Next week is the Tragedy Macbeth With our friend Dana Schwartz Dana Schwartz Returning to the show For another witch film

3:31:11Griffin Newman:That's right

3:31:12David Sims:Yep

3:31:12Griffin Newman:We gotta plug holes But not plug But you know Holes Dig them But also the movie

3:31:18David Sims:But when you say plug holes It sounds like you're telling people To fill them in No don't do that So be clear in your language

3:31:22Griffin Newman:Create them Right Right. So you don't like one of those senators who like fills potholes or whatever. You're like, I'm not voting for that. You got a Joe, a Joe dirt philosophy of life. So a whole dig it. Okay. We are done. I'm sure this is ranking in our top five length at this point. Who knows? No, there was episodes of just this series that were very long. And Leslie, of course, never, never. The only person capable of doing that is Alex Ross Perry. Yeah. Great job in pavements, by the way. Thank you.

3:31:53David Sims:That was fun to do. What if I promise to make the ad reads really long on this? No, but we don't like the... We already did the big trick of the... Yeah, the hidden trick. I'm not trying to make waves here. Arp was so angry when he discovered that. Did he? He texted us when the episode dropped and was like, I guess I need to concede the belt. And then a week later was like, there's 40 minutes of silence? These fucking... Oh, it was so good. Thank you for being here. So much fun. Thank you for having us. Excited to see you guys talk about Monkeybone tonight.

3:32:25Jason Mantzoukas:Please, this would be great.

3:32:26David Sims:And as always, Smell you later, Fartheads. There we go. I mean, I intro'd us. I might as well outro us.

3:32:39Griffin Newman:Blank Check with Griffin and David is hosted by Griffin Newman and David Sims. Our executive producer is me, Ben Hosley. Our creative producer is Marie Barty Salinas. And our associate producer is AJ McKeon. This show is mixed and edited by AJ McKeon and Alan Smithy. Research by J.J. Birch. Our theme song is by Lane Montgomery in the Great American Novel, with additional music by Alex Mitchell. Artwork by Joe Bowen, Ollie Moss, and Pat Reynolds. Our production assistant is Minnick. Special thanks to David Cho, Jordan Fish, and Nate Patterson for their production help. Head over to BlankCheckPod.com for links to all of the real nerdy shit.

3:33:18Griffin Newman:Join our Patreon, Blank Check Special Features, for exclusive franchise commentaries and bonus episodes. Follow us on social at Blank Check Pod. Subscribe to our weekly newsletter, Checkbook, on Substack. This podcast is created and produced by Blank Check Productions.