The Ladykillers with Connor Ratliff

10:53Griffin Newman:You appeared on a commentary episode in our Phantom Podcast days and then you did Twin Peaks The Return main feed you've also done Twin Peaks season 2 with us that was on Patreon and George Lucas appeared three times just twice I'm seeing just twice

11:10David Sims:I believe there was one time in studio where we had a talk with him there was live show at the Bell House and then you're of course forgetting Denim Invasion live at the Del Close Marathon

11:23Griffin Newman:that's not listed on the Wikipedia I will say oh wow how do you change a Wikipedia I don't know Just saying, it's not listed. George was definitely part of that. Someone needs to list it. Hey, we got a shout out. And also, both Broadway shows. This is true. It does say in the Denim Invasion entry, they note cameo appearances from Diana Kolsky, Murph Mayer, and George Lucas. National Fire Radio. Yeah.

11:46David Sims:But this is right. This is true also. Peter Jackson and Sir... Two characters. Sir Blank. Two characters, really. Who then became Joe Shack. Yeah, I guess one character with an alias.

12:00Griffin Newman:Sort of like Professor Doerr is... Yeah. Well, I guess he has the... Producer Ben, you were going to make a comment. The season two episode for us on Patreon was a really big episode where he got a lot of new fans.

12:15David Sims:That's what they call a driver in the biz. It was a driver. I mean, it was very important for me to be a part of that. It was a good one. Yeah. And if I can just digress. I know you don't like digressions, but... I recently saw about half of Twin Peaks, The Return, at the Metrograph.

12:32Griffin Newman:Right, they played it all? They played it all. I wasn't able to attend all of it. Right. It's weird because - Were people kind of coming in and out? Like, was it a - Yeah, I talked to some people who went for the whole thing. It was two days. On the one hand, because of the sound mix, which is a theatrical sound mix, which apparently David Lynch hated the sound mix for TV because it's all compressed. So on the one hand, this is the way it is supposed to be seen. It's tinny. This is like the, it sounded different to me. Like there were times when it felt silent at home, but in the theater it felt like, oh no, there's like so much sound happening.

13:10But on the other hand, absolutely not the way it's meant to be seen. Nine hours in one day and nine hours the next day. Just absolutely. Right, the way it's meant to be seen is 18 hours in one day. It is the parts that are, but I will say this, as just a follow-on comment from the season two episode as a reward to people who liked that episode and just want a little bit more. The Dougie Jones plot in Twin Peaks The Return, it never occurred to me anytime I saw it before this how true it is to the spirit of all the plot lines people hate in season two. It is the most little Nikki. It is the most Nadine with superpowers who thinks she's back in high school.

13:51It is the most, It is just like all of those, like Ben thinks he's in the Civil War, all of those things. Dougie Jones is like, let's do a version of the, I don't think this is intentional necessarily, but it's like, let's do a version of this, of those kind of dopey plots.

14:07David Sims:It's Canto Bight. It's Canto Bight. It's like Rian Johnson saying, we can't ignore the prequels. Yes. Yeah. There has to be something that is on the same continuum as the energy of the prequels. Yeah, like my favorite move from that being that what can we do that kind of nods to the inappropriate stereotypes but doesn't actually do anything wrong? So let's have like a little drunken leprechaun in the casino. This is the one thing we can do that's a little bit like a Jar Jar kind of move. We're allowed to make fun of the Irish, right? Ben Hosley, Connor Ratliff? Yeah, I think. Approval? Yeah. All right.

14:41David Sims:Anyway, end of that.

14:42Griffin Newman:Can I speak to Tom Hanks' streak of$100 million gross?

14:45David Sims:Yes, and let's just call out the reason Connor is on this episode is over the last couple of years, Connor, you started listening to the podcast again. And then you'll text me at errant times and say, if you ever do this, or I'd love to come on and talk about this type of movie. And you did a while ago just pin for me. I'd love to come on and talk about Hanks. So just let me know the next time you have a Hanks movie on the schedule. And this felt like a particularly fascinating one to do. You are currently wearing a big T-shirt.

15:11Griffin Newman:Right. You had your podcast. Good eyes. Good eyes. Good eyes. Good podcast. This guy's got good eyes. Dead eyes. And I want to clarify, when you say I'm wearing a big T-shirt, he doesn't mean I'm wearing like an oversized shirt. Like, oh, that'd be a good shirt to like go to sleep in.

15:25David Sims:No, although what? It's an XL? It's an XL. Okay. Yeah. It is a large shirt. It's an XL. Yeah, it's a comfy shirt. Extra large. Yeah. But it is specifically, and I love talking about Penny Marshall on the pod, Penny Marshall is big. Yes. That's what the shirt is.

15:40Griffin Newman:Yeah, that's what it is. But now, do we count that thing you do? No. Which interrupts his run. No, that's the one qualifier. It has to be leading role. So if you take that out, the run is from Gump to Cash Me If You Can. There's one bump. It can go even longer, all the way to League of Their Own. Yeah. But Philadelphia only made 77 domestic. Yeah. But if you go...

16:06David Sims:Give me the streak from... I'll give you from League of Their Own. That's 90? 92 92 okay give me 92 Penny Marshall's

16:13Griffin Newman:League of Their Own

16:13David Sims:yes

16:13Griffin Newman:I will say we'll have you on to talk about that next year League of Their Own Sleepless in Seattle 100-100 Philadelphia makes 77 Forrest Gump obviously a colossal hit a Tramander plus one of the biggest hits Apollo 13 a gigantic hit Toy Story a big hit nothing you do we don't count I guess Saving Forever Ryan a colossal hit highest grossing film of its year You've Got Mail a very solid hit Toy Story 2 massive movie Green Mile for a movie that long and difficult made a lot of money. What, it made 130? That's right. Cast Away, smash hit, Road to Perdition. I will say, if I'm, you know, the seismologist looking for the earthquake and, you know, that's where you start to be like, It makes it to like 101.

16:54Griffin Newman:Makes 104. But was even like,

16:56David Sims:oh my God. For a dark movie like that. Tom Hanks playing a murderer in July. It did all right. In an austere period.

17:02Griffin Newman:2002 Catch Me If You Can, obviously, you know, big hit back to, and then Lady Killers and Terminal in 2004. 2004 is where he crashes into the wall doing broad comedy for great directors.

17:14David Sims:In one year, he has two movies in a row. Because even when this bombed, I remember people being like, yeah, but he's got a Spielberg comedy coming this summer. He's going to rebound really quick. And when Terminal ends up at 70, people were like, is Hank's cooked? And I'll confess, as we're looking through those numbers, there's something we're not even accounting for, which is when I went to see Castaway in the theater, I didn't buy a ticket for Castaway. I bought a ticket for a different movie and then went into Castaway because I was still feeling a little too salty. So you're saying that Castaway's box office is low.

17:47David Sims:The numbers are low. There's an asterisk. There's at least one ticket. Do you remember what you bought a ticket for instead? I don't remember. What else would have been out at that time, Griffin? Well, let me do this math. But just for listeners who don't know, the great Connor Ratliff, your podcast, Dead Eyes, was about the fact that coming out of drama school, you got a big job. one episode, one scene role in Band of Brothers, an episode directed by Tom Hanks. You were cast. The role was yours. The day before, they call you and say you need to meet with Tom.

18:17Griffin Newman:They need to re-audition, essentially. Yeah, I had already signed the contracts. They had cut my hair. It was ready to go. We were ready to film. He's having second thoughts. Love that we're making you revisit this yet again. I don't mind because Griffin's saying most of it, so I'm not having that.

18:29David Sims:I'm doing it really quickly. Yeah. And they ended up recasting your role. You hurriedly auditioned. It doesn't go well. The explanation you hear from your representation is Tom thinks you have dead eyes. Before I did the re-audition, I was told this. So I went into the audition with like, holy shit, what do I do with this part that doesn't have a lot of dialogue, doesn't have a lot of opportunity to show off your emotional range. You lose the part. It's an albatross around your neck for many years. It defines a lot of your sense of self and your relationship to your career and the idea of pursuing a life in the arts and all of these things.

19:04David Sims:But the thing you always talk about on the podcast, which is great and people should listen to if they haven't already, is that like. And if you have apologies for all of this recapping, go ahead and hit that button that just moves you ahead 40 seconds. We call it the ad break button. Yeah. That he. You should play the music under this part. Was possibly your favorite actor at the time. He's absolutely one of my favorite actors of all time. And what was so damaging about it was not just that you were fired from a big job, but that it was by someone who was one of your personal heroes. And that it was also at the peak of Tom Hanks is undeniably America's favorite person.

19:41David Sims:He's the nicest guy in the world. We all love him. And this guy ruined your life. And so would Cast Away have been the first Hanks movie that came out post firing? Well, when I got fired, Green Mile had just been released in England. And that was one of the things about the day I got fired walking around London seeing this giant

20:00Griffin Newman:big city. This giant policeman man. I mean, he's a prison guy. This true guy. He's just in a uniform. An angelic, a beautiful portrait of a good man. Glowing. A movie that listeners get mad when I diss it. Yeah. But I think it's a very bad movie. Yeah, maybe give that one a watch again. I love it. Yeah. Here's a little trivia cue I have for you guys. Read this sort of like Hank's dominant figure of the 90s, right? As we just sort of illustrated. Post the lady killers. It's not like Tom Hanks has ever left our life. We love him. We can do hit indie podcasts about him. And we can have him get COVID to prove the seriousness of a pandemic.

20:36Griffin Newman:Yeah. And many other things. But how many movies has Tom Hanks made live action? Live action. I'm going to cut out Polar Express and the Toy Stories and all that because you know those did well. That made over 100 million domestic. Domestic? Okay, so the first two Robert Langdons.

20:52David Sims:Da Vinci Code and Angels and Demons. Because Da Vinci Code is definitely seen as a Hanks is strategizing how to have a surefire hit. Right.

21:00Griffin Newman:What's a sort of more middle-aged starring role for him?

21:03David Sims:But that is very much, I think, a post-Ladykiller's terminal move of he needs to attach himself to IP and something that could be a franchise.

21:11Griffin Newman:Da Vinci Code is a huge hit. Angels and Demons is a very mild hit by comparison. Inferno flops. We're not even talking about it. Captain Phillips did make$100. It made$107 million. Yep. Obviously, wonderful performance. Sully makes$100. Sully made$125 million. Not only are you getting this, you're getting them in order, Griffith. David, David, did you ever watch my crash cut of Sully that I gave you last time? Yes, I loved it. Thank you.

21:33David Sims:And is there one more? There's one more. There's one more. There's one post. And it's not a starring role.

21:39Griffin Newman:Elvis. Oh, yeah, there we go. In which he noticed something about the fair singer Elvis Presley. What was it? His wife? His wife? His wife? Santa Claus. What did he say? The showman and the snowman You'll sing here comes A performance where the seeds Are being planted in the lady killer I'm also Going to put it out there I don't want to talk anymore About Elvis on this episode I regret to inform you that's impossible No I don't want to talk about I won't participate I'm going to remove myself from the conversation You'll recuse yourself from the Elvis tangent Because I will say that I'll put it out there If Lerman never wins one of the I have put my name on the that's one I think you want to do I want to do the Elvis episode because I have a lot I want to do so if you know next March what's just interesting about looking at his career as I'm looking at it right now is it's like he still makes these kind of grown up dramas that do pretty good like Charlie Wilson's war did pretty good obviously Bridges Spies did quite kind of grown up triples another one that did like you know the post made 80 domestic 180 worldwide.

22:52David Sims:His zone kind of becomes more, he can take a grown up drama to 60 to 80, which very few other people can.

22:58Griffin Newman:A man called Otto made like a fair amount of money not that long ago, despite being not very good and about a man called Otto. Like, it's like, in Bridge of Spies, you're like, this is set during the Berlin, you know, wall, like, you're like, oh, a man called Otto, what's it about? It's like, I don't know, there's a fuck called Otto. It's like, oh, pretty grim, dark subject matter. It is quite a dark movie. That is a movie that really, you see the The star power is able... Anyone else in that movie, it does not make that money.

23:26David Sims:Like Tom Hanks getting a man called Otto to 65 is arguably more impressive than Hanks at his peak getting Apollo 13.

23:33Griffin Newman:That's the last time Hanks made a movie that was big in theaters, I will say. Because since then, and sort of around then... Two Wes Anderson's. Beyond that, I just want to point out. I want to point out, he's made some streaming movies. Greyhound, Pinocchio, News of the World was sort of like, that's a pretty good movie, but that was sort of a pandemic-y movie. It was as a Finch.

23:53David Sims:Because his things were in this sort of like mid-tier grown-up movie zone. With budgets, but yeah. But I think Sony had both Finch and Greyhound. And like the moment the pandemic started, Sony sold both of them. To Apple. He was like one of the first guys where his movies went straight to streaming rather than theaters holding them back. And Greyhound is pretty good. Never seen Finch. Greyhound and Finch are both movies I'd love to see in a theater. Finch, I really wanted to see in a theater. I keep waiting for there to be a moment when some of the pandemic streamies in particular get even the slightest.

24:27I think it'd be a great film festival for some theater to do like six months of streamies. Connor, I consider doing the curated,

24:33David Sims:the streamies, the streamie era. But yes, as you said, those two movies got sold straight to Apple+. Greyhound is still, I think, their most popular movie ever. They're making a sequel. Penokio, they decide is going to stream before it starts filming. and then it turned out horribly. News of the World was like a same-day VOD thing. That's a good movie. Pinocchio? Robert Zemeckis' Pinocchio? Probably the worst film he's ever been in.

24:55Griffin Newman:It's a tough movie. And since then, he's done two Wes Anderson movies, which he's excellent in both. He's got one great scene

25:00David Sims:in Freaky Tales, a movie I'm the only person who talks about. It's a movie. I ordered it sight unseen because there was a point when I was making Dead Eyes before we got to, spoiler for the most recent episode of Dead Eyes, before I got to Tom Hanks and resolved everything with him. We are now on good terms. I want to say that. You've talked to Tom Hanks. We have had multiple interactions. He has been very good to me.

25:25Griffin Newman:Have you interacted with him much since you interviewed him? Yes, yes. What do you just text him? No, no, I don't take it. I have his email, but I do not take advantage of that. I emailed him once when the episode came out, but he put me in his audio book. Oh, that's cool. His audio book, which he wrote a novel called The Making of Another major motion picture masterpiece. It is about the fictional making of a Marvel-style superhero movie and about all the things that go on. And we said there is an actor in that novel who gets fired. And you voice the actor. I voice the actor who replaces the fired actor.

26:00And it specifically says that the fired actor has dark eyes. So his novel is very much, I feel, in conversation in some small way with my podcast. Can we pin, sorry,

26:11David Sims:what the email you exchanged you had with him after the episode was released. I just want to circle back to that. Yes, we can. Absolutely.

26:18Griffin Newman:But Freaky Tale, like I got into

26:20David Sims:the Anna Bowden Ryan Fleck that I like and it has been roundly ignored and Lionsgate Limited put out a special VHS edition of the 4K.

26:30Griffin Newman:It's on my

26:30David Sims:to watch list. I like it quite a bit. I'm going to check it out. Hanks kills one scene in it and his casting is really interesting the way they use him. It's really fun. Um... But when I was doing the podcast, I decided I was going to own every Tom Hanks thing on Blu-ray or on whatever format, the best format I could get them on. Don't go explain to me. It's how I interact with this podcast. And I decided, well, this is a good news. I'm investing in, like, I think I'm going to get to Tom Hanks. It was my way of sort of manifesting. I was gradually collecting all of his work. And I have it on this little shelf in front of my desk.

27:01I also started doing it with Funko Pops because I realized. You have all the Toms. So many Tom Hanks, like a crazy number of Tom Hanks Funko Pops and variants. He's kind of the anti-Griffin Newman in that sense. I did this because I thought the podcast would go on for 10 years before I got to him. And I had this vision of touring with live episodes where the Funko Pops would be like the set. Yes. But instead, I just have this insane wall in my apartment. It is just one of the walls of your home. It's just like five different Forrest Gump. Yeah. Also parts, characters that don't have a Tom Hanks Funko, but he played Walt Disney.

27:37So I have the Walt Disney. So I started expanding into that. But anyway, Freaky Tales.

27:41Griffin Newman:Wait, can I pitch something? Yeah. Bring the show back and then make it about getting rid of the Funko Pops. I don't want to get rid of the Funko Pops. Yeah, see, this is that kind of like buzzkill Ben energy. I sort of thought

27:51David Sims:that's where you were going. I think Ben... This sort of weird stance of maybe you should stop buying toys. If I find out I'm sick or something and I have a certain amount of time left, I will definitely do that show. That'll be the first thing to sell. Yeah. Well, I hope then that it doesn't come back soon. Oh, that's nice. I would love it to come back too I bought Freaky Tales sight unseen And I really enjoyed it Yeah I like it a lot And I do think to bring it back to Lady Killers His performance in Lady Killers Is part of this little Corner of Tom Hanks His filmography that I think of As weird Hanks I agree with you

28:28Griffin Newman:And it might be the first I think it's kind of the first That's what it's looking at I'm like oh his career does start to change here It is Or he seems more interested in taking risks.

28:38David Sims:I feel like what you're talking about, which is what I found really interesting about this era of Hanks we're in, right? Which is he did some really smart like, oh, Sully, Captain Phillips, who are real life figures. Yeah, he'll still play in every man. Like he was doing all the forms of transportation and the most heroic person involved in a mishap. So like, who's the boat guy?

28:58Griffin Newman:Submarine, plane, Captain Phillips, I guess, what is it? Polar Express, you got the train guy. Although he's, honestly, as someone who's now seen the movie a billion times because of my daughter, he's malevolent in almost every form. Even as Santa Claus is that kind of bad vibe. It's a very strange performance. I wanted to show, Here is the other film he made. Oh, sure. Remember Here? Yeah. Okay. Carry on, carry on. I had a, Griffin and I had a long conversation on a ferry boat right after he watched Here, which I liked Here more than you guys did.

29:28David Sims:I promised a lot of close people in my life that they were going to hate Here as much as I did and then had to listen to you and Alex Ross Perry. and several others be like, you're wrong. Here is good. I don't know if I said it was good. I just felt like by the end of it, it had won me over on an emotional level. It's certainly trying to do that. I'll say I'm really considering importing that Italian 4K. They're not going to do anything in the US? There's a Blu-ray only. And I'm just like, am I really giving it a fair reconsideration if I'm not watching it with full pixels?

29:58Griffin Newman:Yeah, you got to see all the Ks. I got to see the Ks. To me, the apex of Weird Hanks is Cloud Atlas because that is just both a movie he talks about so fondly. I love it. Me too. And a movie where he's getting to be six weird Hankses. Nothing but big swings. The whole movie is a movie made of swings. One of the six characters is sort of a classic Hanksy guy. The guy with Halle Berry. Everyone else is Hanks being like, let me do this, let me do that. You know, like, and this Lady Killers feels like him beginning to open that tool up. It's part of... To poke around. If I were to consider like Tom Hanks' career like a map of a theme park, like a Disney World style map.

30:35Yes, sure. That kind of language will get you nowhere on this podcast. The weird Hank's area, the mayor of that area is David S. Pumpkins. Like he rules over all of the, Colonel Tom Parker and...

30:48David Sims:This is great. Okay, so here's the point I want to make, right?

30:52Griffin Newman:You know what, David S. Pumpkins? Still holds up. Yeah, it's still funny. I watch it like every few months. The Halloween special?

30:58David Sims:That I have yet to check out. I think, here's what I think. I think the Halloween special is a little underrated.

31:04Griffin Newman:Sure, it's certainly not overrated. Nobody rates it.

31:06David Sims:I think it was really slammed and I think it's a little funny. It's much like my take on the Lady Killers where I'm like, I'm not going to argue this is a masterpiece. I think it's a little funny.

31:14Griffin Newman:It's crucial that there is a sort of not very good sequel within the show to David S. Pumpkins and a Halloween special No One Remembers. That's part of being a one-hit wonder I was going to say, I think the second sketch was bad and was a mistake. It was definitely a mistake, but don't you think that's good? It makes David S. Pumpkins all the more special because you're like, right, this isn't something that gets to recur. They tried and it failed. I think they waited so long

31:36David Sims:to do the second one. I don't even remember the second one. What even happens in it? I think New York City is having negative emotions and there's this river of pink slime under the city and David S. Pumpkins has to deal with it. And they let Rick Moranis be Saved D. Pumpkins, his brother. Yeah. Yeah, it's like it's a jump scare attraction. I don't know. Yeah, I'm trying to remember what the structure is. I remember it was in the fucking, what's his name? It was Jack Harlow was the host. Yeah, that's correct. And he fucks it up. He's playing the Beck Bennett sort of reaction guy.

32:13Griffin Newman:Yeah, and he's, but the joke is that he's into it or something. Yes. Like they change the, because Beck Bennett is vital to David S. Pumpkins. Yes. Like, I am so in the weeds with David S. Pumpkins is the best line in David S. Pumpkins. Either that or Leslie Jones saying, I'm crazy, long beat for David S. Pumpkin. Yes. Long wait.

32:33David Sims:But Beck Bennett's got Swiss watch timing in that thing, which is so key to making it work. And Jack Harlow continues to be offbeat. Well, it's interesting because you think of early Hanks SNL and he's the king of guest recurring sketches because you have Mr. Short Term Memory, you have him and Lovitz as the two guys who like the creeps. And these things were Conan O 'Brien written sketches. They were sort of built to recur. And then you have these classic late period Tom Hanks

33:00Griffin Newman:Celebrity Jeopardy, Black Jeopardy. And they are not built to repeat. So when they come back, they tried.

33:06David Sims:They brought that character back on the SNL 50th. And they did the same beat and it didn't get laughs. And I'm like, my guy, you're copying the same exact dialogue. People know the button. They probably need to get Conan to come in and write the second recurring one.

33:21Griffin Newman:It's even more fascinating because that was just a sketch they had that they would throw at everybody and everyone was like, eh, maybe. And then remember, like Hank said, that he was like, Chris Hemsworth feels like a David S. Pumpkin. It's like, I don't know if I should do this. Yeah. Anyway.

33:35David Sims:They also, they talk about that like he didn't have the take on the character until air, that he didn't have the voice and he didn't do the pointing. I do a whole episode of Dead Eyes talking to Bobby Moynihan that if you want to go deep into the weeds on how it happened, it's right there, along with the oral history of David S. Pumpkins, which you can find online. He kept being like, I'll figure it out. I don't have it yet. And then it's just the one moment it matters. His own face. Still funny. It still makes me laugh. It's still funny. And the roots of pumpkins can be found in his performance in Lady Killers, I think, in terms of like that.

34:03This is the theory I want to put out. This is the theory I want to put out.

34:06David Sims:I think he's good in this movie.

34:11David Sims:David? Yes? You hear that? Vaguely, yes. You're wondering who's that knocking at your door, right? I have no idea. Well, it's us, of course, because Blank Check is returning to the Bell House, a place famous for having a door.

34:26Griffin Newman:They do have. That place is lousy with doors. Lots of doors. Marinos. Yes, we will be live Friday, October 16th at 730 at the Bell House in Brooklyn, New York. You can join us for a night of pure cinema.

34:40David Sims:Oh, that was a quote and accompanied by the hand gesture. He's got the meme, right, right, right. David is doing the Marty meme, which is almost as good as the whale face because that's sort of the theme of our live show.

34:50Griffin Newman:Yes, we'll be joined by some special guests to discuss the man, the myth, the Marty for an episode accompanying our miniseries on the films of Martin Scorsese. More details to be revealed, but it'll be Scorsese adjacent in some way or other.

35:02David Sims:It'll be a Marty Palooza, and tickets will go on sale to the general public Thursday, July 23rd at noon Eastern Time. For more information, go to thebellhausny.com slash show.

35:21David.

35:22David Sims:Yes. I've been traveling all summer. That's true. And thank the Lord I brought AG1 with me.

35:28Griffin Newman:Oh, yeah. I'm sure you had those packs with you wherever you went.

35:32David Sims:I got the travel packs. I got a box of berry travel packs, one scoop plus eight ounces of water every morning. AG1.

35:40Griffin Newman:That's my truth. AG1 helps to maintain energy, support gut health, and support immune health. AG1 is clinically shown to support gut health and fill in common nutrient gaps, Griffin. The daily health drink with a multivitamin. It's got pre and probiotics, it's superfoods and antioxidants. One scoop, eight ounces of water, like you said. And I believe it is the scaffolding keeping your entire body standing at all times. This is true.

36:04David Sims:Even though summer is your license to chill, and Lord knows I'm trying to chill, with all the late nights and the long weekends, spontaneous plans, AG1 helps you keep one thing consistent. Just one thing consistent. High quality nutritional support every single day, no matter where you start your morning. Visit drinkag1.com slash check to get a free AG1 travel case with seven free AG1 travel packs in your welcome kit with your first AG1 subscription order while supplies last. That's drinkag1.com slash check.

36:49David Sims:This is the theory I want to put out. In the way he talked to you on Dead Eyes, right? Especially about his early career and him being like a summer theater festival Shakespeare guy, you know? A guy who had ambitions, but it does seem like he is still kind of surprised he became as big of a star as he did, right? that at some point he got slotted into sort of like inoffensive leading man territory in a way that got him sitcom guest roles and then TV movies and bosom buddies and all this sort of stuff. You know, he was sort of like, I was a guy at the moment. It kind of made sense. And then he just keeps evolving into becoming like America's truest North Star, right?

37:30David Sims:And I do not get the sense that he's a guy who feels imprisoned by what the persona of Tom Hanks became. Everybody I know, whoever has worked with him, crew and cast alike, is like, that guy loves being Tom Hanks. Like, not in a self-centered way, but I rarely see someone less burdened with their public reputation than Tom Hanks, who is happy to be Tom Hanks all the time. And yet, I do think you sense in him a little bit in the 90s, where it's like, huh, I'm a victim of my own success. Right, I can't quite get out of this lane. In the sense that, like, I wanted to be an actor, and now I'm a little restricted in what I can do as an actor.

38:06Griffin Newman:Like, what is his riskiest 90s performance, let's exclude Bonfire of the Vanities, or whatever, like, very early 90s?

38:12David Sims:It's League of Their Own. It's like, it was him playing bad. League of Their Own is my all-time favorite Tom Hanks performance. He's so good. It's the time capsule one because it has all of the ambition and the striving of him doing something different, but it also has everything that's great about classic Splash Hanks. Agreed. Because one of my frustrations as a fan of Tom Hanks is how infrequent... David's peeing. All right. You'll hear this. He's going to make his own splish splash in the toilet. Oh, my gosh. And really project so he can hear while he's in the bathroom. Or should this be just for us?

38:49Maybe it's just for us.

38:50David Sims:Maybe let's let him catch up. And let's keep referencing back to this, but not explaining what was said. Connor, make your point. Yeah. So, basically... David Sims. No, David S. Sims. David S. Connor's got to make his point before he flushes the toilet. So, I think Tom Hanks, I'm going to have a lot of Hanks takes in this episode, but one of the things is in his own natural voice. Fuck. I didn't make it. He's going to feel completely caught up. David, great news. Connor waited for you to make his point. I wanted you to, I didn't want to leave you out of it. He thought it'd be rude to keep talking.

39:30Tom Hanks in his own natural speaking voice, especially yelling, is one of, like, there's there's no, there might be some who are his match, but there's no one better at yelling at another person in a movie.

39:43Griffin Newman:Yelling is 90 % of Woody the cowboy. The first thing that I... Buzz, I'm gonna go absolutely push on our A toy! Like, that's all that stuff. Yeah. No one else is as good. It really is. And the first thing I remember him doing in a movie that really had an impression on me was the, I am not a fish in Splash, where he's fully naked, cupping his genitals and I was just like, this guy is putting it all out there. He doesn't put it all out there though and I will call his cowardice out. He's never turned on? I don't think so. I mean, I haven't checked every nook and grace. But you haven't seen Freaky Tales.

40:17Griffin Newman:No, I haven't. Maybe he hangs strong in Freaky Tales. You know what I said? He's got a really interesting small part. It's just him standing there naked. 60-something. How old is Tom Hanks? He is... He says to be upper 60s. 69 years old. Nice. Hell yeah, brother. Just turned 69. But League of Their Own is that perfect thing. There's no crying in baseball. It has that tone. It has that timber. There's that little scratch in it. Whatever. He's getting mad. And we are deprived of that in a lot of his post-90s work. Or mid-90s and on. He's doing a dialect or he's doing a different kind of voice. Woody is one of the rare things where you hear that Hanks voice.

41:04David Sims:It's part of the juice of the Toy Story franchise becomes the one outlet for kind of a classic Hanks that's frozen in time because it's a different physical representation but he can still give it that energy vocally. Here's kind of my master take I want to throw out, right? Big is the moment that like completely mints him as a star. He gets the Oscar nomination and then infamously he kind of like missteps for the next handful of years after Big.

41:28Griffin Newman:He can't quite find what he's supposed to be doing. He stays in the big lane of doing kind of like comedy dramedy. Because Big is a weird example of

41:40David Sims:a studio comedy that gets an acting nomination. So it's sort of like, okay, so I'm a more serious comedy star. But right, Punchline, The Burbs, Turner and Hooch, Joe versus the Volcano, Bonfire, The Vanities.

41:51Griffin Newman:Bonfire, The Vanities is the nadir because he's horribly miscast. There's no bonfire in Vanities. I mean, it is... Put out that fire! You read the book and you're just like, how on earth... Like, they should swap him and Willis. Yes. Is, I guess, the simplest, like, solution. Because Willis is also kind of miscast, although he actually... I kind of like... By the time they realized that, they'd already done that one opening shot and they're like, we can't reshoot, we can't reshoot it.

42:19David Sims:With the opening...

42:20Griffin Newman:And so, right, League of Their Own, which is two years later, is him hitting a reset button, taking a supporting role.

42:25David Sims:And I think in those years, people were, like, sort of... does he not get what he's good at, right? League of Their Own was this ingenious, like, isn't the audience going to reject you? They're starting the movie playing a son of a bitch. Didn't this just backfire on Bonfire of the Vanities? But he's really smart of, like, the motor that movie needs is, here's Tom Hanks having fun, playing washed out, playing angry, playing an asshole, but you see the Tom Hanks goodness in him, which gives you the arc over the course of the movie of we want to see this guy get his act together, right? Also, there's a shift I'll point out, and I don't know where you mark this exactly, but if you were to watch, just go through his filmography, the first, let's say, act one of his film career is very horny.

43:11Horny, horny Hanks. No, you're not wrong. I'm making you horny. 80s Hanks is pretty horny. 80s Hanks is so horny.

43:18Griffin Newman:Volunteers? Yeah. I mean, Dragnet, he's all over Akroyd and everything. Yeah, I remember a shot from volunteers. I remember a shot from Volunteers where he's like having sex with someone in like the dorm room and it's on Simulator there's just so much stuff that you don't, if you start watching from like big on, you don't find it as much. No, because he becomes

43:41David Sims:like America's old oak tree right? Yeah, he doesn't have a lot of on-screen sex. The George Washington of cinema and then the other thing is you're calling out dialects but I'd argue like 90s, early 2000s he's basically always staying within 10 degrees of his home base voice, right? Yeah, yeah. Like, it feels like there's this conscious thing of like, I can do a little bit of a dialect, but if I try to sound less like Tom Hanks, the audience is going to reject it. And you'd see him do talk show interviews, or you'd see SNL, which I'd argue is actually the starting point of Weird Hanks. Where like once a year, once every other year, he comes on, he's a great host.

44:18David Sims:People are like, man, he's so gamey, he can play all these different characters. And then people in the movies are like, but don't get too far away from that. I'm going to open the dossier. Then Catch Me If You Can, he's doing a big swing Boston accent and people are sort of like, huh, that leads to Lady Killer's Terminal. And as you said, Polar Express, which is a big hit, but all three of those movies are 2004. Polar Express is him trying to do Weird Hanks in a movie. Sure, sort of. I mean, sort of. It's part of why the performances

44:41Griffin Newman:don't work in my opinion. I mean, the hobo especially and stuff like that. What's up? I'm going to open the dossier.

44:46David Sims:And then from that point on, it's this balance between him finding sturdy adult fare and opportunities for weird Hanks, but it does feel like when he's doing shit, like saving Mr. Banks.

44:59Griffin Newman:He's a little, he's phoning it in in something like saving Mr. Banks.

45:02David Sims:I think he's not bad in it. And that's another one that makes like 80 or 90 or whatever.

45:07Griffin Newman:That's him like putting the twinkle on autopilot.

45:10David Sims:Yes. Taking a nap. It is him feeling still, I got to represent some idea of what Tom Hanks is. I would argue in the last five or 10 years, he's like, I fully do not give a shit anymore. Yeah. And he doesn't do any calculation about like, is it beneath me to do one scene in Freaky Tales? The Wes parts aren't as big as you would imagine.

45:29Griffin Newman:He loves doing the Wes parts. And like when I interviewed Wes Anderson, it was so obvious. I think I said this, like how proud Wes is that Hanks came to set. And Wes is like, look, this is how we do it here. There's no trailers. We all live in the hotel. We all eat dinner together. Everyone is on set at all times. And Hanks was like, this rocks. I wish everything was like this. And apparently can just sit down in a chair and go like this. Like, just go to sleep. But he's so good in those movies. I still think he's concerned with boomer representation. Like here, that's a boomer movie. Greyhound, boomer.

46:03Griffin Newman:Like he's still like out there being like, don't worry. The boomers have their man on screen. When he's the guy. When he's the guy.

46:08David Sims:When he's trying to mount a movie under his name, but I feel an energy from him showing up for literally one scene in Phoenician.

46:15Griffin Newman:I'm such a great scene. Feeling so free. The Phoenician thing strikes me definitely also is him just being like, I really enjoy Astro City. I like going to that vacation.

46:27David Sims:Also, I want to play. I just want to act. I want to not feel burdened by my reputation. I am so excited that possibly that he might be part of the ensemble in all future West things. I think that's the vibe. And eventually, like, we'll get our Steve Zizou. We'll get our West will do a movie that'll be like, let's give Hanks a really, like...

46:43Griffin Newman:Like the thing with Del Toro where it's like, Wes keeps seeing him and is like, I keep thinking of you as like Aristotle and Asis. And Del Toro apparently was just like, I could do that. And West is like, all right, like, hold that thought. The last thing I'll say is that I had a thing, and this is something I never, I always had it in my back pocket as like, oh, we could do a Dead Eyes episode that'll sort of explore this. But I never really talked about it because we never got around to it. And it is that the Lady Killers, see, I'm tying it back in here. The Lady Killers lands in an era where I had this observation about the movies that Tom Hanks was doing and why he was doing them.

47:19and it was frustrating to me.

47:21David Sims:Connor Taken, it's the main reason I wanted to make sure you're on this episode because this is a great example of it. Well, the pre part of the take is I always felt like the best Tom Hanks movie that Tom Hanks never made was The Truman Show. Sure. Because I always felt like Jim Carrey was too weird to be playing and the way he plays it is like a weird guy and I'm like, that movie I think makes more sense to me if it's like the ultimate Tom Hanks movie. I'm just a normal guy and then I find out this neighborhood is a TV show as opposed to like, Hi, I'm the guy who lives in the neighborhood. And it's a TV show.

47:52What are these cameras doing here? But I say that as that I always wish that was a Tom Hanks movie. I started looking at this period of movies where Tom Hanks would show up in the movie after the one that would have been the slam dunk. Meaning he sees Shawshank Redemption. He's like, I got to do a film like that. What's that guy's next movie? What's Frank Darabont's next movie? I want to star in it. It's the Green Mile. Everyone's less favorite of the two. Still a good movie, but it's not Shawshank Redemption.

48:20David Sims:And you're like, Hanks could have played Andy Dufresne. Like, that was too risky a move for his stardom. Then you have American Beauty, which I maintain, even before all of the Kevin Spacey news, I maintain that that movie is far more subversive if it was Tom Hanks playing that role. I think the whole movie works better because Kevin Spacey, even just his cinematic history, you're like, if he's cutting off Gwyneth Paltrow's head, he's a good guy. Like, the bar is so low for...

48:56Griffin Newman:No, Spacey was always a slimeball. That was his thing. Whereas, way back to working. Tom Hanks playing that role, I feel like would be like, oh my God, he's like really going through this midlife crisis. Hanks in American Beauty, that movie would still have some juice. Tom Hanks jerking off in the shower, which is the start of American Beauty, would actually sort of throw audiences out of their seats. and when I picture like the comedy but it's actually not possible that movie couldn't be made I'm serious it would be too shocking even a DreamWorks it would have been I think it would have been a great movie and the ending would have made sense him being like I don't this isn't who I this isn't who I am the decency of that last scene and the tragedy of that movie would have felt like I don't disagree with you I'd still be crying about that movie if that was a Tom Hanks movie but then he shows up for the next Sam Mendes film Road to Perdition which he's good in he's good in But when I think of what the Tom Hanks American Beauty would have been, I would have been like, that would have been a movie that actually said something.

49:50Whereas when you cast America's favorite sociopath as the main guy, you're kind of like, okay. Right. I hear you. I hear you. And then you have George Clooney doing Oh Brother, Where Aren't Thou? Kind of making the Coen brothers like movie stars can star in Coen brother movies. It has to be the thing that Hanks is looking at that gives him the security.

50:10David Sims:Why can't I do that? I can do this. Yeah. And then you have this movie that has like T-Bone Burnett infused soundtrack. We're going like Americana. It is the closest cousin to a brother in their filmography. And you could always feel this thing of like someone does something and then Tom Hanks will be like, I want to be in that next person's thing. And it always ends up being a little bit like it's not quite the thing. And what is the movie that the Coens make right after Lady Killers? Three years later, but their immediate following film. No Country for Old Men. Correct. like this is the other part of your argument I like is sometimes he's a little early right he's thought of the person to collaborate

50:48Griffin Newman:with but he's picked the wrong they're at the wrong point yeah because any like

50:51David Sims:he is still primarily a filmmaker first actor I weirdly can imagine Tom Hanks in any of those three roles in No Country for Old Men like there's a version of that movie I don't know if which of those is the best and it's hard to picture anything in that movie changing in such a drastic way and not feeling like a diminishment, but it is, there is part of you that has to feel like, oh, I do this movie, and then their next one is the one that like. And if they announced tomorrow that the Coens were reuniting and making a neo-Western and Tom Hanks was one of the three leads, I'd be hooting and hollering.

51:27David Sims:If the implication was that Hanks was going to be in a Coens movie in that mode at his current age, that's the other thing is he's got just like so much innate gravitas now that he can throw out.

51:39Griffin Newman:The Lady Killers, of course, is an Ealing comedy directed by Ealing legend Alexander McKendrick. Have you guys seen The Lady Killers, 1955? I, in fact, rewatched it last night. And how'd you find it?

51:49David Sims:I like it a lot.

51:51Griffin Newman:It's not my favorite Ealing comedy. Me neither. But it's totally good. Now, both of you have... And it has Alec Guinness doing this shit, you know, better than anyone can do it. Alec Guinness, who is one of the sort of 10 guys, I think, can make the argument for the greatest screen actor who ever lived.

52:08David Sims:No offense to Tom Hanks, who I like a lot. Well, the thing that's impressive with Alec Guinness, it was how versatile and chameleonic he was while also being able to do a really incredible home-based performance. Right.

52:20Griffin Newman:And also, he could sword fight like nobody else. He could do everything. Take back Arthur Vayner.

52:24David Sims:Yeah.

52:24Griffin Newman:Oh. I only saw the original Lady Killers. David's doing some lightsaber fighting. I'm doing Obi-Wan's very forced lightsaber stuff. I only saw the original Lady Killers last week, and I watched it in preparation for this episode. Do you like the Ealing comedies? Do you have a base on the Ealing comedies? I watched a lot of those when I moved to England.

52:40David Sims:I have more of a relationship to British culture than I do. So I'm kind of looking to you for a little bit of understanding on the original. I haven't seen, I don't know if I've even seen any other Ealing comedies. You ever see a kind of hard film? I lived in England for a while. I went to school in England. I didn't see any of the carry-on films and I didn't see any of the Ealing comedies. The carry-on films

52:58Griffin Newman:is one of those things where it's like, watch carry-on camping or something and like, you're fine. The rest of them the exact same time. It's an easy weekend. It's just 47 movies tonight. What is carry on? They're the epitome of like old-fashioned British comedy, which is basically like, you know, there's a bunch of situations happening. I want to light the fire. And it's always like a lot of like, ooh, you know, and like someone's top flies off and everyone's like, oh, oh. But they were also,

53:19David Sims:they were like the early British equivalent of like the Friedberg seltzer, like date movie, epic movie, where you're like three of these are coming. How do they turn them out so quickly? You know, and there's a posh guy who goes like,

53:29Griffin Newman:oh, you know, it's just, it's the epitome of like corny 40s. I want to light the fire for the blankies on the Patreon. This sounds like a great Patreon.

53:39David Sims:it only takes all of the carry on every year for decades. There'd be like three of them and they were like, carry on receptionist, carry on shoe salesman, carry on ancient Rome. It does speak to the sort of British tradition where, uh, their dedication to like, uh, ceremony is that if you accidentally make something like a carry-on movie, then you have to keep making it. It has to take the piss out of every single thing before the series can be retired.

54:08Griffin Newman:So the Ealing comedies, Ben, just to give context for listeners as well. They're the sophisticated counterpoint. It's post-war there's Ealing Studios, which Ealing is a neighborhood in West London, that produces a lot of films that I really think epitomize Britain after the war. This kind of like chipper sort of mordant like they're very sweet but they're a little dark and like Whiskey Galore Kind of Hudson Cornets is obviously a famous one that's the one where Alec Guinness the one I like the best although I have not seen many of them Alec Guinness plays a bunch of roles I highly recommend to anyone The Lavender Hill Mob which is an amazing movie really really funny with Alec Guinness Alec Guinness is in a ton of them Man in the White Suit Barnacle Bill The Lady you know there's lots of them they tend to be you know funny but kind of dark comedies and the Coen brothers.

55:01Griffin Newman:What I want to know is what's their relationship to it. I guess a remake of The Lady Killers had been sort of... It's at Fox since the mid-90s. Sorry, at Disney. At Disney. At Touchstone.

55:15David Sims:Perfect sense as a title to remake. There is a sort of just like simple logline for this movie. And especially because I think it is kind of seen as one of the canonical classics in British comedy.

55:28Griffin Newman:And it has a sort of simple setup of like a bunch of criminals are trying to get one over on this old lady. And like she somehow is indestructible. But it's not as well known here in the States. No, but it's a piece of IP. and Disney had it. They had this. We got the Lady Killers IP. I guess they bought it in some way. Robert Harling, who wrote Steela Magnolia. Steela Magnolia. Steela Magnolia. Take him. In 1998, it was announced as the writer and director of a Touchstone Lady Killers remake that was going to take the original London setting and bring it to the big, easy, Gnarlins. And yes, this cup of tea was going to turn into a pot of gumbo.

56:06Griffin Newman:Snow gators. What? Sorry. Harling leaves the project and on comes Barry Sonnenfeld, the Coen Brothers cinematographer of yore. Get out of here, Harling. Barry's here. Who had just made Wild, Wild, Wild, Wild West. It's a bit of Wild, Wild West. And Wild, Wild West had not done very well. Nonetheless, he is prepping Men in Black 2. He's also prepping Big Trouble. He's the one who brings in the Coen Brothers to polish the script. because he's their old pal. It was a writing assignment. They obviously, the Coens, had an English father. He's an American citizen who joined the army and like, but he was born in Britain or something.

56:50Griffin Newman:Like, Edward Cohen is the guy. And Joel and Ethan had written together before. No, he never directed a movie together. But they've been writing together. They're as a writing teacher. They've grown up with the Ealing comedies and they love them. This is not a situation like True Grit coming up where they're like, fuck that movie. They have plenty of reverence for the lady killers. Yes. But also, as we've said before,

57:12David Sims:post Big Lebowski, which was really like a kind of knockdown moment for them, they start taking four higher writing gigs in a way they hadn't before and being like, you know what, sure, we'll polish a script. We'll do a pass. We'll like on assignment adapt your material. This was straight up just a gig for them. Now, can I jump in for a second because this is not in the dossier, but I cross-referenced with JJ. Go ahead. My friend, Barry Josephson, producer of The Tick and Disenchanted. But, and of this. He was Barry Sonnenfeld's producing partner. I think it's a little bit more of a title than when I talked to him about it.

57:47David Sims:He was not a very hands-on producer on this. But, the two Barry's... He would have been

57:51Griffin Newman:had Barry directed it, one of those.

57:52David Sims:Exactly. Right. So, he was developing it with Barry Sonnenfeld for a very long time. He teams up...

57:58Griffin Newman:Is this the first time that they teamed up as the two Barry's? No. So,

58:00David Sims:he had been the head of production, I think, at Columbia Pictures. And then after Men in Black is delivered, he's like, this guy is going to be on such a hot streak. I'm leaving my position and going into business with him as a producer. And then they proceed to make three shitty movies in a row.

58:16Griffin Newman:Wild Wild West, Big Trouble, and I guess... That David...

58:20David Sims:Listen, so the wheels are already kind of coming off the wagon at this point. Also do the pilot of the Warburton tech show together. The thing that Barry told me that is not on the record anywhere, but he said I'm allowed to share here... Go ahead. Was that the Sonnenfeld... Go ahead. Cohen's scripted Lady Killers was meant to be a vehicle for Nicolas Cage. I think I might have said this in the Raising Arizona episode. You could see that. That makes sense. He drops out of it, I want to say, maybe to do adaptation?

58:51Griffin Newman:I mean, it's sort of the Nicolas Cage era of him doing Family Man and Weather Man, like these sort of comedy. I can see that he would seek this out. But Nicolas Cage is a star who even though he had become

59:03David Sims:a little broader, I'm realizing he did a lot of movies about men. He loves men. Yeah. He was kind of the original Manosphere. Right. Yeah. I'm sorry, the Manosphere. But he makes sense as a guy who had become such a big star, and yet being weird was part of his brand. And if he had shown up with weird teeth and weird facial hair doing a voice in this movie, people wouldn't have been like, absolutely not my Nick Cage, right? Cage drops out for some other project. I think it was adaptation. And when that happens, Sonnenfeld's like, I really just wanted to do it with Cage. If he's not doing it, I'm not interested.

59:37David Sims:And that's when the Coens get the call-up.

59:40Griffin Newman:The way the Coens describe adapting the film, they say it was fun to desecrate it, essentially. This is Joel. Frankly, the idea of despoiling a work of art kind of appealed to us. So they're sort of having fun mucking around.

59:55David Sims:Well, another key part of it is they're writing it assuming they're not going to direct it. So they're like, who cares? To a certain degree, this isn't going to stick to us. A little bit, who cares?

1:00:03Griffin Newman:They have the, you know, the original, the lady is a stereotypical old lady. She's a genteel English lady, right? And they were like, we want the lady to be more of like a kind of rock of faith type, like more of a sort of tough old broad, right? And so they have this idea of the sort of Southern Baptist black woman. And this, you know, similar to intolerable cruelty, which we just discussed, starts as a writing job. So yes, maybe their passion for it is not as initially intense as some of their projects.

1:00:35David Sims:Look, I think they liked the idea of doing it. It doesn't feel like a movie they would have strategically developed from the ground up to direct. Once Barry drops out,

1:00:42Griffin Newman:they decide they want to do it.

1:00:43David Sims:Yeah. Like, it's not like they got forced into it. No, no, it was their choice. But this is that era. It's the two movies in a row that feel like things that were for higher jobs at bigger studios that could be seen as broader, more commercial plays that they decide to direct themselves. The third movie in this trilogy that never comes to pass is their Gambit remake, which they had similarly written on assignment. You ended up making that? I think it's Michael Hoffman. That sounds right. Made it with Cameron Diaz and Colin Firth and Alan Rickman as an ultimate movie that doesn't exist, but as a movie that kind of...

1:01:16Griffin Newman:It did make a name for himself out here. Just to complete both the New Orleans and the Gambit. Well done. 100 flaming card points. They claim, and perhaps they're correct, that this is the first IBS movie. They're kind of proud of how lowbrow the humor is. I, here's, here's my big take. At a certain point, they're like, we're doing like loser Ocean's Eleven. We're doing like an Ocean's Eleven where everyone's an idiot.

1:01:40David Sims:This movie feels to me, it finally hit me last night. This feels like if the Coen brothers had directed a Happy Madison movie in this era. And I think to a lot of people, that sounds like an absolute nightmare. And it's a cross-section of two things I like that even if I'm like, this is not the best use of anyone's time, I'm kind of happy it exists. But absolutely, like the amount of shit jokes in this, Combined with everything else. Well, especially the fact that the IBS runner in the movie. And it does run. It does it ever. J.K. Simmons' character, to be clear, is the... It all just builds to a very quick sort of bait and switch gag, which is you think he's having a bowel movement, but he's being killed.

1:02:23It doesn't actually really impact the heist, which is sort of your expectation, is that...

1:02:28Griffin Newman:The heist in general is not that important in this movie.

1:02:32David Sims:It's funny, actually, though. You're right, though, because it's like they keep setting it up as like, and here's another ticking bomb. Right, right. That's a complication. And it like goes off twice, but neither time in a way that actually causes problems. He both has to shit when they're on the riverboat and he needs to shit when he's in the tunnel. But like whenever whenever he needs to use the bathroom when they're actually in the casino, you feel like, oh, they're going to get caught. Nothing goes wrong with it. And there's a lot of the sort of the way that like Lebowski keeps defying your expectation of how one of these things is supposed to go, like how the way things go wrong will frequently be like, well, that's not the way I expected it would go wrong.

1:03:13And there's a lot of things like that in this.

1:03:16David Sims:They set you up to know how things will go wrong and then they kind of don't happen. Yeah. And I think that, I mean, that's one of the reasons why I think a lot of people initially were not satisfied by the Big Lebowski because they're actively sort of defying the thing that we know will satisfy an audience, which is you set something up and then you pay it off. And I think they're enjoying that. And I think they also do that in like the man who wasn't there. There's a lot of like the Coen Brothers like doing that thing, which is like, you think we're going to do this, but because they know how to set up a joke.

1:03:47and I think there's a part of them that likes like, we're going to set up the joke and then tell you a different punchline at a different time than you're expecting and you'll never get the thing that you were expecting.

1:03:57David Sims:Now that having been said, when they do that in a drama, generally I think people receive it as, oh, it's kind of a profound statement on the unknowability of life, right? And the lack of control these characters have. When they do it in a comedy, there is often this response of, so they're just fucking with me. None of this matters. you know I feel like there's this kind of knee jerk that Lebowski got of just like oh so they're just like fucking around this whole movie's a lark that I think then gets filed under people's like are these guys arrogant

1:04:29Griffin Newman:the Coens while they finish their script and decide to take over the director's chairs realize Tom Hanks is their first choice they approach him it should have been Foghorn Leghorn yeah they he turns out he's just a cartoon Foghorn detests though and that's when they realized he was just a critic. Also, I believe this was after Back in Action. It was. So his box office, it was poisoned. At this point, Foghorn Leghorn in the early 2000s, Hollywood was like, we are not in the Foghorn Leghorn business anymore.

1:05:00David Sims:People forget how much the failure of Looney Tunes Back in Action at the box office got pinned on Foghorn, which I don't think is fair because he's not even pinned it that way. I say that's not fair to Foghorn. Yeah, I say, I say, I say. Yeah.

1:05:12Griffin Newman:So, uh, Hanks obviously is not drawn to remaking The Lady Killers, but loves the Coens, had never met them, likes their movies, um, really likes Raising Arizona, Blood Simple, Fargo. Opportunity to go where? Um, and has every reason at this point to trust that this will be a fantastic film. They have a great track record. He's never seen The Lady Killers. He says he's probably seen Kind Hearts and Acornos, but that's it. So he doesn't have, like, a big grounding for the Ealing comedies outside of reputation. He doesn't watch it. He doesn't want, like, Alec Guinness entering his brain.

1:05:46David Sims:They do style him fairly similarly. I mean, they come up with an American-ized, Colonel Sanders-fied version of it. But the paleness and the red around the eyes and the teeth. Clearly the Coens are latching on to some element of this character looking sickly and like a zombie is part of the equation. I also think, though, I think it was a good impulse. Sometimes I think, like, the danger is that you'll accidentally do something that's stealing without meaning to because you'll just have parallel thinking. I do think it would be, if you were to just watch a bunch of scenes, just scenes of the character and put them in a mix with a bunch of other scenes, I don't think you'd be like, oh, those two are the same character in two different movies.

1:06:27Griffin Newman:Sure. He invented a whole backstory for him of like he's on sabbatical from some university because there was a sexual harassment lawsuit and he's a boy. But, you know, like, Hanks gets to work figuring out who Dor is. I love that none of it's explained. I think the Coens kind of just let him do that. And his first trip to the Cannes Film Festival is with this movie.

1:06:51David Sims:And it plays at the Cannes Film Festival after it has come out in the United States and flopped.

1:06:56Griffin Newman:Yes, because it came out in March in the U.S. It was March or April. Yeah. And it wins the jury prize for Irma P. Hall. It's a very, it's a special award for Irma P. Hall outside of the two acting awards that they, it's the Tarantino jury. The Cannes Film Festival, Ben,

1:07:13David Sims:usually just gives out two acting awards, gendered, right? And it's just, it's two performances, male and female. They gave a special award created just for this extreme circumstance, handed out by Quentin Tarantino to Irma P. Hall in this movie, six weeks after it flopped. It's another Cannes triumph for the Coen brothers. Is Samuel Jackson and Jungle Fever

1:07:38Griffin Newman:the only other time that happened? I don't know. It's a time that it happened. I don't know. I don't know. But his memory is that he had a great time at Cannes with the Lady Killer. Big standing ovation. Everyone enjoyed it. Makes sense. This is the kind of movie French people are like, yeah, this is what America's like, right? And then he's like, and then the next year he went with the Da Vinci Code and obviously we had a giant reception and like, you know, red carpet and all that. But by the time the movie was over, he was like, the theater was half empty. You know what I mean? And he's like, obviously that movie made a billion dollars or whatever, but like I had a better time.

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1:10:57Griffin Newman:Marlon Wayans begged to be in this movie, he said. You know, he said, I begged and pleaded and hit the casting couch and I did both of them. JJ, note, Jesus. He hit the casting couch.

1:11:09David Sims:That's Marlon's quote that I'm sure is meant to be a joke and thank God JJ editorialized to let us know that he does not approve of that joke.

1:11:17Griffin Newman:You know, he basically, you know, Marlon's like, I watched all their movies I found, you know, I sort of get the kind of like cartoonish Bugs Bunny energy. I jerked off Ethan, then Joel. See, this is why I do think that there is... Did a kind of 1906. When I hear that, because that is a Marlon original joke. Yeah. I detect some of that voice in his character in this movie.

1:11:37David Sims:Yeah, it's an interesting question. I mean, Marlon is so interesting. I think he is such a powerful performer. And there is the swing between his own projects, which are not always exactly my cup of tea, but I can't deny he is like very engaging on screen. And then anytime he like hands himself over to a director and is like, I want to do your thing. I think he's kind of incredible. Okay. Like he's great in Requiem. He's good in Requiem.

1:12:02Griffin Newman:I don't like that movie at all. I don't either, but I think he's great. Wait, Requiem for a Dream? Yeah. Be excited. Be excited. Everyone in that movie is just dialed to 5 ,000. He's horrendous. It ends so badly for some of those characters. But I'm not counting that as a real director. some of the characters in that movie it ends badly for them. Yeah, they don't have a good time in that one. That's my take on that movie. I feel like a lot of those characters meet a bad end.

1:12:28David Sims:I loved him in Air. I think he's great in Air. I liked him a lot in On the Rocks.

1:12:34Griffin Newman:Yeah, I thought he worked in that. On the Rocks was mostly my takeaway was like, God, he's still hot as fuck. This is the other thing. Marlon Wayans is so handsome. He's a really good guy.

1:12:42David Sims:And he's aging impeccably.

1:12:44Griffin Newman:And it's not like Sean isn't handsome. Sean's also good looking. No, but Marlon's legally has. Yeah. Yeah. But obviously he doesn't do a lot of what we're talking about. He largely is in other stuff. I think he's really funny in Norbit. He's really funny in Norbit. I also think he's good in G.I. Joe. Is he? I think he's kind of good. Is he? Are you just saying that because that's the other one? I think he's kind of good in G.I. Joe. I don't remember him being much of anything in that movie. Wallace Whipcord Weems? That's who he is. Wallace Whipcord Weems. Nobody in that. Everyone feels, I enjoy that movie okay.

1:13:16Griffin Newman:Everyone feels a little lost in it. It's a lot of garbage. It's so silly. Yeah. It's one of the silliest movies ever made. I've never seen any of them. Silly. There's just two. No, there's three. Oh, no, there's three if you count Snake Eyes. You're forgetting. We got the origin of Snake Eyes. I don't think I... I think I tried to watch that one and couldn't even finish it. Here's the thing about it.

1:13:34David Sims:It's not very engaging. No. It is a classic Patton Oswalt joke. You know that guy Snake Eyes? Oh, yeah, with the mask and he doesn't talk. He's so awesome. Here's a movie about who he was before he got the mask when he used to talk a lot.

1:13:47Griffin Newman:bad happened to him involving Dice. Wayans decides his character is the audience's point of view. I guess I can kind of see that. I don't really know. Only in the sense that he's the only person who feels...

1:13:58David Sims:Yeah. And he's in a modern world. I also think that's a helpful thing for an actor to have. Speaking to a point we made,

1:14:06Griffin Newman:this is a quote from Joel Cohen. Marlon was funny as hell and he improvised a lot of that stuff. Well, well, well. We were telling Marlon he should really... I say it does seem that Marlon improvised a few of the lines in the movie. And we shall get waffles. Maybe I just need to do fawls. Of course, I couldn't be in the movie because I was box office poison at the time. We were telling Marlon he should... I was blacklisted, I say. ...really be given a writing credit because of what he does in some of those scenes. He was great. Irma P. Hall, kind of one of those, like, you know, actors with a million credits.

1:14:36David Sims:But much like, what was the name of the woman in the original Lady Killers? She only started acting in her 50s. Right, right. And then that was her first major role. she wins the BAFTA for Best British Actress and dies two years later. Kate Johnson. It was her only above the title role. Irma P. Hall, similarly, I think doesn't have her first screen credit until her 50s.

1:14:58Griffin Newman:Yeah, she's got like a couple things like back in the day, but which really, I think, properly starts acting in the late 80s. She's very good in the film A Family Thing, which she got some critics notices for. I didn't realize at the time that that was the same actor who was in when the Lady Killers came out her performance is so different she's a I think generally yeah anytime you see her in a movie you're like right this is like a very very good character and just the briefest of moments to lament the loss of Billy Bob Thornton as a screenwriter because there was that era where he was writing a bunch of movies and I felt like the family thing was my favorite thing he wrote he also wrote movies that were about like real life in the south and it was like oh yeah this guy has like some grounding on that and now he's like now he puts it all into his songs

1:15:42David Sims:can I just give a really quick Grammar Rundown because I think it's interesting. She was a high school teacher. She taught languages, right? Then she got side work during the summer as an interim publicist on an independent film that was filming in Dallas, where she lived. It's called Book of Numbers. It's sort of like an early 70s crime movie. The director saw her do a poetry reading and was like, let me give you a little role in this. She kind of gets the bug, but then she basically is like, I like acting. Let me start a local theater company. So she builds a very successful and I think still existing to this day theater company and then does little roles on the side.

1:16:21David Sims:She doesn't full-time act. She's 90 years old. She's still alive. She doesn't full-time act until 1984. Yeah. And then at which

1:16:30Griffin Newman:point she's like 50 years old. Apart from a family thing, which I do feel like was her first sort of quote unquote breakout. Soul Food. She's in Soul Food, which is a very fun movie. She's in she's apparently the grandma in Steel. We're going to watch Steel one day. We are

1:16:46David Sims:the Friends of Superman Patreon series.

1:16:47Griffin Newman:Right. I remember her in the Clint Eastwood Midnight and Garden of Good or Evil, which is not one of Clint's best, but it's okay. She's in Beloved. Which we covered.

1:16:54David Sims:I don't remember her in that.

1:16:56Griffin Newman:It's a pretty small role. Patch Adams. She's in Patch Adams, which I have seen. Your favorite movie, Bad Company. That's a tough one. What's she in that one? She's pretty far down the cast. She is Jamie Foxx's mom in Collateral the same year as this? Am I correct about that? An incredible performance. It's the same year. It's the sort of the fall, you know, when this is coming out in the spring. That's a great scene because that's the scene where she's... Vincent's so nice to her in the hospital bed and she's going like, oh, my son, this and that. You know, he has his own limo company and Vincent's realizing like what a loser J.P.

1:17:28Griffin Newman:Fox is. All the autographed photos on her hospital room. And like the whole dynamics of the movie start to shift. But like Cruz and her are so locked. They're so good in that scene. She's great. And like since then, I feel like she's done a bunch of stuff. She's basically been retired

1:17:41David Sims:for 10 years. At 80, she steps away. She did the Werner Herzog doubleheader.

1:17:47Griffin Newman:Yeah.

1:17:47David Sims:My son, my son and bad lieutenant. She's quite good bad lieutenant.

1:17:50Griffin Newman:Yeah. She's a great actor. She's incredibly, the Coens found her through casting. They saw her almost immediately. She was like the first person to walk through the door. They were like, she rocks, but let's see some other people and they were like, no.

1:18:01David Sims:I do feel like she's the undeniable juice of this movie. You know, I was talking to Barry about it and he was like, by the time the Coens took over, you know, they handled their own shit. So we were not very involved. But he was just like, she's just undeniably, we would watch the dailies and be like, this is a home run because of her.

1:18:22Griffin Newman:Her quote, it was a wonderful experience working with Tom Hanks. We bonded. I bond easily, I guess. I say that I have all these God children. God sends them to me and he's become one as well as the Coen brothers. Film was shot in Mississippi, carried a budget of about$35,$40 million. they built a lot of sets everyone had a good time the Coens had final cut they turned this movie in that was what was released

1:18:48David Sims:absolutely feels like a final cut movie it does not feel like it has odd rhythms you know it is not playing the conventional studio comedy game

1:18:56Griffin Newman:and Joel Cohen has this idea of like let's try to combine gospel music and hip hop music for the score and for the soundtrack I think the soundtrack is incredible The Burwell score is very interesting I will say

1:19:13David Sims:And there are the multiple uses of What is it? Trouble of this world Yeah the hymn is called

1:19:20Griffin Newman:Trouble of this world

1:19:22David Sims:You listen to this often? Ben I swear to you I bought the CD at the time It would be a CD You bought the CD? Absolutely it's a good ass soundtrack You are such a weird person I like this movie guys. It's a B minus. I will not stand here and let Griffin be bullied for this. I do not think it is weird. I do not think it is weird. Griffin, look at me. You are normal. You are normal. Normal person. You're big and cool and normal. Big and cool and tough and normal. It's a good CD. If they re-released it on vinyl, I'd buy that shit again. Record store day, limited color, right? I'd buy the shit out of that.

1:20:06He'd be lining up. He'd be lining up at Rough Trade in Manhattan.

1:20:09David Sims:Yeah. No, realistically, what I'd be doing is I'd be texting Connor and saying, hey, are you lining up at Rough Trade in Manhattan? Yeah, that does sound like a Griffin. I do usually text you the morning of Record Store Day and go, are you lining up? I just want to, because I don't think there's anything in the dossier. There's a song I like by the band Lush, the UK band Lush. They had an album and a song called Lady Killers. Okay. I really like that a lot. Is it inspired by the movie or is it just... No, not at all. You're just bringing it up because it doesn't. Is it them confessing to a horrible crime?

1:20:36No, I'm on my... It's a point of view song. It's a character song a la Randy Newman, sort of. No, I don't think it is. Actually, it's a stretch now that I remember the lyrics. But it is dealing with a type of problematic man.

1:20:49David Sims:But I think you're right that it was part of the calculation for this movie, especially them working at Touchdown again as we're getting T-Bone Burnett back and we're going to do an unconventional soundtrack. Because T-Bone first consulted on Big Lebowski. Oh, right, yes. He put that... Because that's why that has a really cool soundtrack. And then Oh Brother Where Aren't Thou was the soundtrack more successful than the movie. And Lady Killers feels very much like we're going back to that. Surprise best-selling album. And in fact, it sold one copy to Griffin Newman full-priced Virgin Megastore at age 15.

1:21:18I am in the Discogs app now because I'm almost positive. No shade to JJ, but I'm almost positive he did not go deep on the soundtrack release formats in the dossier. Am I wrong? Am I wrong? Is there a vinyl? No. There are five CD editions. Europe, Mexico, Canada, the U.S. And then another one that seems like it almost might be unauthorized. No, it was a reissue. It was a reissue. But unknown year when it was reissued. Okay, I didn't buy the reissue. I got the original. And it is, hold on, I want to see how available it is. There are 76 versions of it, copies of it, available on Discogs. I'm going to get it.

1:21:58Griffin Newman:So the film is a contemporary story somehow. Say that with your full chest. About a lady and widow named Marva Munson. She's got a big picture of her loss, her former husband, late husband. It's a big, sturgis move, although other... The portrait changes, which does...

1:22:23David Sims:Ninochka does that with Lennon, I want to say.

1:22:27Griffin Newman:But I think there's at least one Sturges. Sullivan's Travels. There are a couple Sturges. By this point, you know, it was done on the Beverly Hillbillies, the TV series where Mr. Drysdale had a portrait of his dad and it would always change its reaction.

1:22:40David Sims:I want to say it is a bit that I always like. Portrait responding with faces.

1:22:47Griffin Newman:Yes. So she's got a house and she rents it to, having complained about her former tenant playing hippity hop music, to the great George Wallace, rents it to a classics professor named Goldthwait Higginson Dorr.

1:23:03David Sims:She discovers him on her front lawn chasing a cat up a tree. I love it as an immediate save the cat subversion of we're seeing the worst character in the world ostensibly saving a cat as an introduction. Like, it feels like they're rebuke to the sort of idea of schematic screenwriting.

1:23:22Griffin Newman:Right.

1:23:23David Sims:Yeah. But it does immediately endear him to her and then he sweet talks her. He is the most flowery speaking man in history.

1:23:33Griffin Newman:Yes, he is a mellifluous, you know, he's 10 words when one could do. He looks like Colonel Sanders with sepsis. And he ostensibly wants her cellar, her root cellar, to rehearse music in with an ensemble of weirdos. Church music of the Rococo era. And he says Rococo like 400 times. And every time I find it funny, B -. For sure. And she is mostly concerned with God and what's it called at the university? Bob Jones University. A real university, of course, which is like a very Christian university. She sends them$5 a month. Right, she is on their plaque. And I think one of the more subversive jokes in the movie is the fact that you have this character that you are rooting for, who is a well-intentioned person, and that the her monthly donation like ultimately any windfall that she gets at the end of this movie is going to go to this institution that has a history of racial segregation it's not a great university but that's the joke like that's the joke which i actually think in 2025 is a joke that plays really interestingly because there's so much of the kind of like i didn't vote for this There's so much of the sort of like people who like you're we've had a decade now of trying to like parse the intentions of voters and like, are there good people who vote for bad people and then bad things happen and they didn't mean that the fact that you have a hero of the movie that at the end is going to be like, oh, good, I can donate them to this.

1:25:05that's the win poisonous like it's a very that's it's as dark and ending as the Coen brothers have had in terms of like what looks like a sunny win for a good character is like oh yeah but the money is going to go to this group that as of 2004 I know that I don't know that I know that there have been like some shifts I don't know how meaningful but at the time yes I don't want to get sued by Bob Jones University or whatever oh you don't want to get sued by them I don't know they feel like all right well then bleep me bleep me. Bleep me. I just want to edit out what I said. If what I said was too hot for this podcast.

1:25:38Griffin Newman:I get your gag of of like, um, they have controversies. Yeah.

1:25:44David Sims:Uh, I just want to call out the original Lady Killers has the same exact kind of narrative bookend of opening with her going to the cops saying something that they kind of dismiss as a little crazy and ending with her going in and confessing and offering to give them the money and And then being like, this woman's making stuff up. Why don't you keep it? Right. It's got the same thing. The Coens add the idea of specifying where the money would go in such a specific way that's seeded from the very beginning of the movie, which I do think is smart. Like at the end of the original, she's just sort of like, oh, I guess I'll.

1:26:22Well, we see her give money to like a panhandler. And the implication is like the money is going to go to. She'll be very generous. She'll be generous and kind

1:26:31David Sims:because she's a nice lady. But you have this idea of this woman who doesn't have much already giving whatever she can to Bob Jones every month. It's the other thing I like is like the character is funny in the original Lady Colors but the bit there is more this woman is incredibly oblivious. It's all going on under her nose. She's dotty. I like that Irma P. Hall's character has agency. She's active.

1:26:50Griffin Newman:I like that she's active. It's a great performance in my opinion and it's kind of like to me sort of the reason to recommend the movie. If, you know, my big problem with this movie is that it feels kind of lifeless and low energy which makes no sense to me given the tone and like how heightened the performances are and how silly everyone is I find it kind of dreary to watch I want it to be like really goofy really loony tunes and instead it's not like and at the end it kind of picks up the pace a little bit stuff's finally happening people are dying but a lot of it is just them sitting around one thing I had forgotten is that the in my memory of I've seen the movie twice once when it came out and then once recently for this and it's not I watch it all the time I think I've seen it four times my memory of it was that fair amount the runner of throwing the bodies over onto the barge happened over a longer period of the last 20 minutes it's all bundled at the end yeah it's like that they have the barge before then I guess is sort of you see the barge but I'm like the movie was almost over and they had yet to dump a body and I'm like oh I remember it being spread out a little bit more.

1:28:01David Sims:But that is structurally exactly how the Ealing one works as well. I think this movie I like this movie I think it's the worst Coen Brothers movie.

1:28:12Griffin Newman:Inarguably I think inarguably. Inarguably I think there's probably some people out there who pick and tolerable cruelty and to all of those people I go rewatch it you're wrong about that. I think I think Buster Scruggs kind of has a a muddled reputation, but I really like that movie. That's partially Netflix and partially just omnibus stuff. Intolerable Cruelty, the last solo film that... Joel Cohen's sponsor. No, no, no, Joel McBeth. That Ethan. Yeah. No, it's Joel. Joel, until McBeth. Right. It was funny that in the interviews, he was like, yeah, since Intolerable, I've been looking for a project that really found me.

1:28:46David Sims:That's part of that Joel

1:28:47Griffin Newman:didn't direct a movie for like 20 years. Yeah. But I do feel like it's their worst movie. But I also feel like I had this thought about it that if this movie hadn't been released, let's say that Disney looked at it and said, we're going to Zazzle of this. We're going to take the tax write-off. No one's ever going to see this. Imagine we had spent the last 20 years just please release The Lady Killers. The Con Brothers made a movie of Tom Hanks. It's a remake of this classic movie and it just hasn't been released. I think if we saw it now, we'd be so excited by all the things that work in it. I'd be like, why didn't they release this at the time?

1:29:26It's not perfect, but it's you know, I think there's a feeling Some things people might bump up against. Sure, sure. There are bumps. I'm not denying the bumps in this movie. But I do think that in the same way, I think a lot of the things that don't work in this movie are built into things that also kind of don't work in the original.

1:29:46David Sims:I'm a little inclined to agree with you. I've always been, said with no disrespect, a little perplexed by Lady Killer's seeming status as one of the ten greatest British comedies of all time.

1:29:56Griffin Newman:I would not put it above other Ealing comedies. To me, it's a sort of middle Ealing comedy.

1:30:02David Sims:I just feel like I often see it cited as perhaps the pinnacle of the Ealing era. To me, there's something about the way the story is structured that makes it feel like this trifle, this minor sort of little story. It's not told with satisfying beats. I think there are things the Coen brothers actually improve in the sense that I think the original heist doesn't feel as interesting to me as the heist in this movie. Agree. The original heist is really uninteresting. And it kind of in this movie, they need her house because it's crucial to the heist. It's another thing I like. In the original, it's sort of just a happenstance thing, you know.

1:30:42Griffin Newman:I mean, they're like near. They're near, but they could have they could have. It's just bad luck that they ended up in this lady's house. They could have done it in any number of places. And I think there are certain things that feel a little bit more interesting to me. When I was watching the original Lady Killers, everything that was a little different about the heist, in most cases, not every case, but in most cases, I felt like the Coen brothers had made it a little bit more interesting on the heist level.

1:31:09David Sims:Yeah, and then the original film, it's sort of just, what a weird house you have. There's sort of transients who seemingly are going to only rent the room for like two days a night. The original film takes place over only a couple of days.

1:31:24Griffin Newman:The original is really concerned with Guinness, you know, playing this character. They move in. Like, you know. Right. They do the string quartet stuff. They do the heist.

1:31:33David Sims:And then they try to get out and they're immediately kind of like caught and busted. This film does the sort of Ocean's Eleven parody of they need to be here for the perfect plan, which we'll talk about.

1:31:44Griffin Newman:They've got to bring in their team.

1:31:45David Sims:everyone has a role to play. But they're going to be here for weeks if not months planning this.

1:31:50Griffin Newman:So like Marlon Brainwains is the inside man. J.K. Simmons is demolition. Zima is the tunneler because he was in the Viet Cong. Yeah. What does Ryan Hurst do? He's just like the muscle. He's the brawn. Yeah. Yeah, he's the muscle. And of course, yeah, Mountain Girl played by the great Diane Delano. Who just passed away. Oh, that's sad. She did just die. Yeah. At the age of 67 of cancer. That's so sad. It's very sad. I loved her on the show Popular. It's such a weird reference. Mountain Girl. It's like pulling from electric Kool-Aid acid test. Oh, that's... Jerry Garcia's ex-wife, Mountain Girl.

1:32:26Griffin Newman:I mean, that's a very

1:32:27David Sims:Coen Brothers reference.

1:32:29Griffin Newman:Well, this movie is modern. Modern. It's something I'm grateful to. Like, that's why... Right, because there's the bit with Greg Grunberg where they're on set, you know, to introduce J.K. Simmons' character. And you're like... Dog food commercial. We're on a movie set? Like, that doesn't feel right. Like, again, this feels like it's set in the 50s.

1:32:45David Sims:It is a thing I kind of like about this movie is that the team is made up of five guys who seem like weird, out-of-time cartoon characters. And you have these moments where they have to interact with the outside world, and you're like, oh, even within this movie, they are strange. I'll also say that you talk about people's Coen Brothers journey. We haven't gotten into that. Connor, tell us your Coen Brothers journey. You're a little older than us, so you have a different point.

1:33:09Griffin Newman:Canoe down the river of the Coen Brothers. The first Coen Brothers movie I ever saw was Raising Arizona. I was taking a college credit course when I was in middle school, where in the summer I'd go and...

1:33:18David Sims:You were taking college courses in middle school? I don't know why I did this exactly, but it was a thing... Which college? I think it was Northeast Missouri State University. It might be Northwest. I can't remember. But it was a thing where for a few weeks you'd go, you'd stay at a dorm and you'd take one college class. And I did this for two summers. And one of the summers, the class was creative writing. Looks like it was Northwest. There is no Northeast. Oh, boy. I've been... Well, well, well. You really...

1:33:41Griffin Newman:I've nailed you to the wall. Oh, man. People warned me about coming on this show. That's a bit of a gotcha podcast. And I didn't believe him, but I have been gotcha. This is like when, right, the presidential debate with the live fact checking. Oh, shit. Here I am. I'm going to have to stop you there. David and his infamous laptop. I can't get anything past you guys. The teacher of this class showed us a series of movies. And when I think back to the movies he picked, I'm always kind of impressed that this guy had like they were interesting things to show us. He showed us Raising Arizona. He showed us Radio Days.

1:34:15He showed us True Stories. Sure. Great movies all in similar time. And they're all kind of in that time period, like, just to get, like, a young mind thinking about how you can tell certain...

1:34:26David Sims:And, like, unconventional comedies. Like, there are different ways to be funny. Yeah. And Raising Arizona was by far the one that I was just like, this movie is so funny. And, like, I've seen that... There's a clip of Tarantino talking about Raising Arizona and talking about how it was filmed and the feeling at the time being that like all movies will be filmed like this from now on because there's like someone figured a new way to film like funny chasing. But it's what everyone who tries to do it learns is this is so fucking difficult. Yes.

1:34:55Griffin Newman:Yeah. That's a movie that has a lot of energy. I would say a comedy by the Coen brothers is sort of madcap about a bunch of dirtbags that has a lot of energy to it. Yes. A camera is electric. It's just, but I always think about the Coen brothers, their movies as their first two movies laid this template down. And I think of this spectrum where Blood Simple is at one end and Raising Arizona is the other because it's hard to think of a one-two punch from any filmmaker. They are showing you everything they got with those first two movies. Raising Arizona. And we will exist between these two poles.

1:35:26Which are wide poles. Raising Arizona feels like the people who made Blood Simple should have failed at trying to make a Raising Arizona. It feels like you can't, no one can make both kinds. Or vice versa. Yes.

1:35:36David Sims:Like Blood Simple's a failure and then they're like, you know what we should do is comedy. And every movie of theirs, I feel like, is on that spectrum. And Fargo being one that lands sort of almost perfectly in the middle, that it's like a blood symbol that's also got this crazy... You're absolutely right. It's why it's their definitive film. And another crazy thing is, if you love blood symbol, if you're like, this is what I want from the Coen brothers, you have to wait until No Country for All Men before you really get another movie that fully bites at that apple. Right? Like, if your jam is Blood Simple, you go to Raising Arizona, you're like, that's not what I wanted.

1:36:12A man who wasn't there a little bit, but it's a noir. But it's still got a lot, it's still got a little bit more of the kooky Raising Arizona aspect to it. Even, like, Miller's Crossing has a little bit more of the crazy camera work. There's like a... I hear you. No Country for Old Men is the first movie that feels like it's a proper follow-up to Blood Simple. Lady Killers is closer to the Raising Arizona side, but it has that sort of like darkness and crime and, and also a little bit of like the world of blood simple feels like a cruel world. I mean, there's something mean, there's something really, there's a mean streak in the lady killers that keeps it from that.

1:36:55I think when it works, it's great. But I think there's a lot of places where the, the mean streak and I'll start with like, I went to that website, the very helpful, uh, does the dog die? website for the lady killers because I genuinely wasn't sure whether the dog had died in this. The dog or the cat? The dog at the beginning on the commercial. Oh, yes. Yes. Yes. And it says it's implied the dog in the commercial filming dies of suffocation approximately 15 minutes in. And there's another comment saying the dog is, during filming an ad, the dog is made to wear a gas mask that suffocates him. He is shown dropping into unconsciousness.

1:37:32Then someone tries to resuscitate him. You see his tongue hanging out. but it's like that's a joke in the movie that feels to me like mean in a way that it doesn't doesn't buy you much there are people like Ben Hosley and it's early too

1:37:47David Sims:you kill a dog within 15 minutes of the movie you've put like a boot around your car tire

1:37:52Griffin Newman:it's a tough thing to ask of an audience yeah

1:37:55David Sims:it's just immediately putting you in a bad head

1:37:57Griffin Newman:I fucking hated that part

1:37:58David Sims:maybe Matt yeah like if you're doing it how do you feel about John Wick it's what the movie's about that's the engine You're okay when you're like, as long as this movie takes it as seriously as I'm taking it.

1:38:08Griffin Newman:One dog dies and 100 people die in response. And it was justified. Exactly. When I for 100 ,000 I used to be justified. Whereas the implied comedic death of the dog on the commercial set.

1:38:21David Sims:Well, it has no bearing on the plot whatsoever. Right. It's used as a storytelling tool to communicate to the audience. He's bad at his job as props manager. Movie sets are not well run, I guess. And I would say, arguably, if you were like, well, we need that moment to indicate to the audience that J.K. Simmons' character can be kind of sloppy. Bad instincts. It is literally, the thing you learn from that moment is the thing you learn from literally every other thing he says or does in the movie. Also, by the way, the introduction of the moment is, so J.K. Simmons is introduced working on a dog food commercial that is directed by Greg Grunberg, and Bruce Campbell appears silently as the Humane Society rep.

1:39:04David Sims:I just always love when the Coens threw a Bruce in there. Yeah. But he, the dog, what is it? The collar is the prop that they're having an issue with?

1:39:13Griffin Newman:We have to move on from this scene that does not matter.

1:39:16David Sims:No, it is important. I'm just going through the... It is important as an encapsulation. The mean-spirited aspect of the movie. I will also say there's another question on the side that says... I'm going to finish my point on this. I must. I must. They go, hey, can you fly in a new collar? And instead, J.K. Simmons puts a full fucking World War I gas mask on the dog and Grumberg is like, the fuck are you talking about? This is scary. They need to see the dog's face. The dog needs to eat the food. And he's like, well, it's always an interesting take. We're already communicating he's bad at his job by him not thinking through it creatively.

1:39:47David Sims:And then while they're having the conversation, the dog dies, which is just a heightening of he's bad at his job that leaves a bad taste in people's mouth. I do think that's important to the like, there is nothing game by killing the dog. The story beat is already accomplished by him just having the bad creative instinct. and it is in line with what this movie is doing, which is, as you said, just kind of like unnecessarily mean. One of the other questions that I really like the answer to on is that does the dog die? It doesn't have to do with the dog. So it is a new point. We're starting fresh.

1:40:16Is someone gaslighted? Someone is continually lied to throughout the film, but I don't think it is gaslighting is the response.

1:40:24David Sims:How do we? That's a that's a fine hair to split. It's a really fine hair. We have talked about it before, David, on this podcast, Blank Check with Griffin and David. But I think in the 80s and especially in the 90s, it kind of tapers off in the early 2000s. There was a run of people attempting the like pitch black dark murder comedy, big studio comedy with movie stars making a movie that feels kind of to its core evil and is about people trying to kill each other to get ahead, to pull off some con, to cover their tracks or whatever. that almost always plays like a fucking lead balloon with audiences.

1:41:00David Sims:Lucky Numbers is one that we talked about. And I think in that episode we talked about other movies that fit into the very bad things is another one. It's the meanness. There's a, like, the degree of how funny you have to be to overcome a certain level of meanness. It's just like, it's, I always think of it in terms of, because I think about this in terms of, like, performing improv as well, where if you want to do a scene about certain things, It's just like at Chuck E. Cheese or any carnival where you have tickets and prizes. That's like some things like, well, that's a million tickets. Right.

1:41:35And there are certain things where it's like, if you're going to make a joke about this thing. You need to hit the jackpot. Yes. You better have a million tickets worth of funny in this joke or else you don't have enough.

1:41:45Griffin Newman:It's the same thing with this movie using the N-word twice in its first two minutes. Yes. Marlon Wayans is basically pretty much every single fucking line that that guy says in the movie. you're kind of like, all right. And it's like not that funny. If that shit's funny, I will forgive so much. But he is the least funny part of the film. Undeniable. Look, if you're going to use the N-word in a movie and it's written by you guys, like Joel Cohn and Ethan Coen, that's what it says. Unless it really, really feels like, yeah, this is part of the story and I'm just going to think about you guys writing that on your computer.

1:42:17Griffin Newman:Because the thing we don't know. And then like talking to whoever about how to deliver the line or whatever. And even if it is a scenario where... I'm not saying you can't use... I'm like, I'm not trying to be some police I wasn't asking to. I was... If you thought I was about to use the word, I'm not No, I wasn't The... You're not about to call Michael Richards The shooting script, if we imagine that it's just like, this was word perfect that they did it note for note but even if I was making a movie and someone improvised and they use the N-word a lot I would still be editing that movie knowing that like people don't know that.

1:42:57They're going to filter it through me. It's not like a little warning comes up on the screen saying Joel and Ethan were just including some pretty free takes. He improved that.

1:43:05Griffin Newman:He improved that. Yeah. I do want to say one more thing just because it amuses me from doesthedogdie.com. Yeah. There is the... And it does relate to the dog, but I...

1:43:15David Sims:Connor's turning around. This is the best episode I am. I am confident. I am confident that you will on some level appreciate that I included this. One of the questions is, is there dog fighting? And the answer is, a dog is dressed as a World War I soldier but does not fight. That's really good. Ben, I want to say, I want to ask something of Ben. The main archetypes of the gang in this film are transmuted from the main archetypes of the British film. But the characters are transformed pretty substantially. Do you want to wager a guess who played in the original the role that Marlon Wayans plays in this film in 2004?

1:43:52Griffin Newman:Wait, what? Who played the British version of Marlon Wayans in the original? And how much are you willing to wager? He's probably willing to wager nothing. I'm going to wager nothing. I don't... Mr. Bean? I don't know. Peter Sellers. Kind of close. Peter Sellers, the Mr. Bean of his day.

1:44:09David Sims:Isn't that wild that in that movie, it's Cockney Peter Sellers?

1:44:12Griffin Newman:It's not wild. What do you mean? That's like totally... I mean, obviously, Peter Sellers... But he's an Ealing standard guy. Like, that's the guy. Griffin, I'm going to take you aside on this. that Marlon Wayans is in this movie.

1:44:24David Sims:I'm sorry. The wild part is, who's our generation's Peter Sellers?

1:44:29Griffin Newman:And like, I don't dislike Marlon Wayans. I like him a lot. But I think he's whatever. I mean, I was going to say he's not pitched right, but I don't know that anyone's pitched totally right in this movie because I really think it needs to be actually sillier.

1:44:44David Sims:This is my thing though, okay? So like, I cannot deny your truth, right? And I know that I'm Bernie Sanders' nightmare. I'm in the 1 % on this movie. I'm up against the wall, right? And it feels a little bit like, funny, funny, 500 comedy points. I'm granting them to myself and taking out a loan against my future. Wow, redistribution of wealth after a Bernie Sanders joke. It's a more extreme version of what I felt like on our Johnny Dangerously episode, where I'm like, I watched this and I laughed.

1:45:14Griffin Newman:But Johnny Dangerously is 10 times the movie. I agree. That's a pretty enjoyable watch.

1:45:19David Sims:The Defenders, it's a much larger group on Johnny Dangerously. It felt like that was a 50-50 split on this podcast, but also in our listenership, right? This, I'm firmly Bernie Sanders' nightmare, the 1%. But I feel the same way where I watch this and I'm like, I like the energy of this. I'm laughing at this. It doesn't all work for me. There's a ton I bump on. What's the funny parts to you? I laugh like once a minute while watching this movie. I chuckle. I'm not kidding. No, you do. Yes, I do. Once a minute? I watched this yesterday. I went like this. once a minute that's a laugh I did a little quietly to myself

1:45:52Griffin Newman:what's the funniest part of this movie what's the funniest thing that happens in Joel and Ethan Cohen's Lady Killers their debut film

1:45:58David Sims:the funniest thing that happens yes

1:46:00Griffin Newman:number one yes JK Simmons face whenever he needs to poop sure that's kind of funny every time every time that Tom Hanks and Irma P. Hall are engaging direct with each other they're good I am locked in I'm enjoying it Are you laughing? No, but I didn't claim I'm not a 60 second man The way that Griffin Is claiming to be You're not Gage I'm a one minute man I want that on the record You are Missy Elliott Not just a one minute man An every minute man That's a very different distinction

1:46:31David Sims:I'm every minute Can I confess To a thing that made me laugh And it ties into a thing That is problematic About the film And that you don't like About the film When When when I believe that Marlon Wayans uses the N-word addressing Steven Root and Steven Root's reaction to that, I thought that was funny.

1:46:53Griffin Newman:I think Root nails the discomfort of that scene quite well because Steven Root is a Swiss army knife. That guy can literally do anything.

1:47:02David Sims:Talk about an ultimate when is that guy bad? That guy always nails it and he is one of the ultimate he understood the assignment actors where it's like knows what movie he's in, knows what size the role is knows what needs to be accomplished in that scene can I tell a blind item thing a thing I can't talk about but it's Stephen Root related please let's get to the root of the issue oh a new segment on the show the root of the issue the root of the issue do we have any play in music for that yeah Ben Ben drop the root of the issue theme song

1:47:33Griffin Newman:who is the guy in office space king of the hill and dodgeball too I don't know his name but I know his face Cause his name is Steven Rue And I'm so good at the issue Okay, we just heard it. Great. I love it. So every time we do this, and I'll come back to do this segment.

1:47:53David Sims:We should press that on vinyl. Ooh, limited edition record store day single. Steven Rue's character from O 'Brother

1:47:58Griffin Newman:could do it, press it on vinyl for him. He could, blind man, sing it into the can. Yeah, all right. I worked on a thing. I can't talk about it. So I gotta be very careful here. Oh my God. All right?

1:48:09David Sims:This item is as blind as Steven Rue's character or no brother we are, though. It truly is. Oh, classic Root of the Matter. What is this segment called? Root of the Issue, but maybe it's Root of the Matter because Root of the Issue makes it sound like there's an issue. Can we get a remix for the newly titled Root of the Matter?

1:48:23Griffin Newman:I told you before, I know I'll tell you again. Steven Rue is a god among men. I'm telling the truth. I don't mean to flatter. He's the number one character actor. That's Root of the Matter.

1:48:37David Sims:Ooh, that is tasty. I like that. Press that on vinyl. Press that on vinyl. Record Store Day single Limited edition release What color do you think? What color? Beetroot red Beetroot red Beetroot red There you go What's the thing? I was on I can't tell you what the thing is I signed documents What's the fucking story? For crying out loud I'm gonna leave this podcast 20-ish minutes There we go I was on a call sheet Uh huh And I know Which is a thing We all know what a call sheet is Keep going I was hoping I was talking to your least informed listener Keep going I'm here for you I know there's one person out there Who's thinking I can't keep up with this podcast Where were you on the call sheet?

1:49:11I don't... Low. Low, sure. Double digits? I don't remember. I just remember being on a call sheet and noticing that Stephen Root was also on this call sheet and being very excited. I can't tell you how this thing was made, where it was made, but I wasn't... If you want to know how this thing got made, you could listen to How Did This Get Made.

1:49:30David Sims:I was in a situation, though, where I could hear him in the next room and I heard Root at work and it was really thrilling. I never saw him, but it felt like, oh, I've really arrived a moment. I also put myself on tape for a role that I did not get in the movie Paint? Paint? Oh, the Owen Wilson? Yeah. And I believe Stephen Root got that role.

1:49:56Griffin Newman:He's in that film, yeah.

1:49:57David Sims:You can never feel bad about losing a role to Root. No, it actually feels good. It feels like whenever someone like that gets a role that you, I just feel honored that there was even a point where they were like, we're looking at other people. I was running on the same route as Root? I was on the Root Root? Is this story, has it happened yet? Is it done?

1:50:16Griffin Newman:What are we doing here? What do you mean? Okay, great. So moving on. I never said, did I say it was a story? I guess it was a blind item. Yeah, it was an item. And we got to the root of the matter. Let's just pause for the outro. Steven and Root! Steven and Root! Steven and Root! Steven and Root!

1:50:44Oh, shit. The outro's even better.

1:50:47David Sims:It's a great B-side.

1:50:51Griffin Newman:So, what's the film about? They need to tunnel into this vault from a river, side river. Ironically,

1:50:59David Sims:the value of this house is that it has a root cellar.

1:51:04Griffin Newman:Root cellar!

1:51:06David Sims:Yes, it does. It does. and there's a riverboat casino in this territory. Casinos cannot operate on land. They have to operate on the water. Maritime law, but they have an underground on land vault where the money goes every night before they lock it up. And the door is impenetrable, but if you were to dig through the back wall and this house is the closest, you could go in. Marlon Wayans is their inside man. The idea is that, much like the movie Inside Man, they can break down the wall and repair it so that it looks like the money magically vanished and no one was ever the wiser. A little spoiler for a...

1:51:47If you don't like spoilers, get out now. Jump ahead, 40. This is pre-Inside Man. Two years ahead. The Spike Lee movie, and it kind of is the same.

1:51:57Griffin Newman:Yes, it is a little bit. It's similar. I want to point something out. I'm looking at the Wikipedia page for this movie. This is a four-paragraph plot description. the first two paragraphs, I would say, are 80 % of the movie. Which, and the final long paragraph, essentially, is the climax where everyone dies. Spoiler alert, everyone but Irma P. Hall meets their end, grisly end. Kind of speaks to me to how there's not much, once they've sort of begun their scheme, there's not much happening.

1:52:26David Sims:The original film is 90 minutes long. This film is...

1:52:30Griffin Newman:It's 104 and shouldn't be. It should be more like 90. Yeah.

1:52:34David Sims:But it wasn't made in the 90s. It wasn't made in the 90s. It was made in the early 2000s. This film's about 15 minutes longer than that one, right? I was watching the original last night. The old lady catches them at the exact halfway point. And that movie has much less of a planning the heist. The heist takes a while thing. It's like they show up, they basically do a robbery of an armored truck. They just block a street. In a cul-de-sac. Yeah. They block a street and are pretty lucky about nobody sees them. It's like a quick hit job and then they're ready to immediately run out. And it's the same gag executed in a different way where the money flies all over the place and she goes, where'd this money come from?

1:53:17David Sims:And they try to come up with an explanation, a lie. She says, you got to go return the money and then they all decide to take turns one at a time killing her. But it's at the halfway point, 45 minutes, that she catches them. And even then, I still think it takes another 15 or 20 minutes before the first attempt is made. So the original is structured the same way proportionately in the lady-killing chunk of it is only the last 25 % of the film. And it's the same thing where it's the repetition of the death. They do their own thing with throwing the bodies over a train track that's similar with the garbage barge in this movie.

1:53:53David Sims:But I'm just saying that's from the material.

1:53:56Griffin Newman:Yeah, sure. I think this movie... You guys, I don't like that movie that much. So that's not really, I'm not a big fan of the 50s. Now I got you. You didn't get me. I've seen that movie like once on TV. I got you to trash the Ealing movies from your beloved homeland. It's not a movie. The defense of this movie can't be like, oh, well, the original isn't that good

1:54:15David Sims:because I'm like, well, then fucking don't make it. But I think a bunch of listeners are going to be like, what are these guys dismissing the original? The original is incredible. And I think the original, I think we're in a minority here. I think the original was used as a cudgel to beat this movie with when it came out.

1:54:29Griffin Newman:The problem with this movie is this movie. This movie is not very good. I'm sorry, guys. I think it's pretty good.

1:54:36David Sims:Here are things I laugh at. Five out of ten. I think it's a six. I think it's an ultimate gentleman six.

1:54:42Griffin Newman:And a rude man seven. To me, I'm very politely extending the five because everyone tried.

1:54:49David Sims:I think it's a B minus. Can I make a couple little cases for it? And just explaining what I like about it.

1:54:54Griffin Newman:Honestly, yes, because we're wrapping up soon. Oh, what? This is the first I'm hearing of this. Yes. I'm letting you guys know.

1:55:00David Sims:And I want to talk about Hanks' performance a little bit more because I like it. I like it too. Anytime he has... And not just because we're friends. ...a continuous paragraph of dialogue, I laugh at at least one thing he said. I think that stuff's pretty funny. I think that is the exact kind of language stuff that I think the Coens do better than anyone else on the planet is people getting caught in circular monologues that have jokes nestled within jokes within jokes. And then the character reacting to the outside being like, I have no idea what the fuck you just said.

1:55:25Griffin Newman:I do think it grinds the movie to a halt. it's kind of it's funny to watch him do it he's having so much fun and I do appreciate watching him have fun and he's unencumbered you feel him for the first time in 15 years being like I can do anything but it does grind the movie to a halt it's sort of like okay let's stop and watch this funny thing sort of happen and I would say that is both part of what's wrong with the movie and it's also so intentional in the sense that like you not liking it is different than them like fucking up that part of what doesn't work about this movie is that it's a very minor kind of movie.

1:56:05It feels like... This is my least favorite defense of a movie.

1:56:10David Sims:It's a lark. This movie... No, but it's like you have to acknowledge the most I can defend this movie is still like... I think it is a well-executed, unimportant movie.

1:56:18Griffin Newman:This is the George Lucas thing where suddenly George Lucas is in a corner and he's like, Star Wars is for children and nobody needs to like it. I'm like, okay. All right, George. But I'm also... This movie is pointless. It's fine that it's bad. No, that's not actually a defense to me. No, I'm not saying that.

1:56:32David Sims:I'm saying it's minor by design. I'm saying that. Yeah, sure. Because I'm also defending the movie, saying it is undeniably, in my opinion, their worst movie. But I also think as low points of filmmakers go, there's still so... There's no defense that this is a great low point to have. There are a lot of... No, no argument. There are a lot of low points for filmmakers where I'm like, I just wish they hadn't made that movie. And with Lady Killers, I don't wish that they hadn't made this movie. I'm glad that it exists. This is going to be one of our longest miniseries ever, right? It is over 20 films, including the films directed by Joel Cohen Solo, Ethan Coen with his wife, and Joel and Ethan together, right?

1:57:13Which this is the first. They're figuring it out, man.

1:57:15David Sims:But this is the lowest point. Babes in the woods. And I think this is pretty high for the worst film and filmographies that we've covered on this show. as reclamation goes, when this movie came out, I fully was, I know you've talked about this before, I fully was of the belief that they had lost their ability to make movies and that they were on a decline that would never stop. This was the movie where it was like a, I wouldn't go so far as are they cooked, but it's the closest. I think the fact that this and Talber cruelty were both disliked and were both seen as them attempting to go more mainstream.

1:57:52Griffin Newman:Mainstream with a big star and both times the reaction from the general public is negative.

1:57:56David Sims:Not only do we not like what they're making, but it seems like they've sold out their own values and now I guess they're just looking to get assignment jobs. I think people were like, well, they're done. The fact that it's like three full years before No Country and it felt like it kind of came out of nowhere. I feel like when I watch it now, I feel like there's pleasure to be had in another crazy Coen Brothers movie that has its own specific thing. I don't like the mean-spirited aspects of a lot of it. There's a lot of things in it that don't work. I think the structure of it veers intentionally away from satisfaction in places.

1:58:31Yeah. Except for right at the end.

1:58:33Griffin Newman:I do feel like, well, okay, so my... I think it is satisfying to watch all these guys get killed. I think in that sense, the movie is smart. So, like, you know, they get rumbled. They decide they have to kill Irma P. Hall. First, Tom Hanks tries to win her over, which is a pretty fun scene. And that's one of my favorite beats and thing is when he's like, I'm just going to... And you're sort of watching him almost, you know, knock her down.

1:58:58David Sims:By the way, I'm sorry. To circle back to your question of what is the funniest part of this movie, I can tell you what I think the funniest part of this movie is. That's the question. And it's the scene that almost for me represents its key value. Irma P. Hall trying to get George Wallace to meet the professor. And Tom Hanks is eluding him. And George Wallace increasingly thinks... George Wallace plays a sheriff who basically is only sitting in a chair. This is an imaginary figure. She's an old lady who's lost her mind, and she clocks that he's hiding under the bed, and Irma Pihal has this conversation with Tom Hanks under the bed where she's giggling and going, Professor, why are you drinking tea under the bed?

1:59:34David Sims:And George Wallace looking at her like, this is like a weird breakdown for a woman to have. And him just making the shush finger under the bed. I just find everything about that seem funny.

1:59:45Griffin Newman:I think we should maybe call back something that came up in that Johnny Dangerously episode, which is that I would say drop the NY and it's fun. I'm giggling. But that is, I think, it's something we really hit on in that Johnny Dangerously episode where it's like, right, do you find something kind of fun versus actually funny?

2:00:03David Sims:If you don't find this movie funny, there's nothing I can say to convince you of its value. I can see that most people did not. Absolutely. I want to say this and no disrespect intended. I've lived in New York for almost a quarter of a century. I will never drop the NY.

2:00:18Griffin Newman:That's a good point. Thank you. And thank you for saying that. And you know what? Soren Mamdami is happy that you're going to stay here. Our future wonderful mayor. Yeah. Is he a mayor? Oh, boy. Let's hope so. Anyway, Lady Killers.

2:00:31David Sims:The first half of the movie is the heist planning into the heist. And then, right, an explosive goes off that throws the money all over the place and she walks in. They think she's going to be at church.

2:00:42Griffin Newman:She comes home early to make tea. The deaths proceed in this order. The first is Marlon, who is... Almost happy initially to kill her, but then flashes back to his childhood and his own mother. Who used to sit in the living room in the same way. Right, and realizes he can't do it.

2:00:59David Sims:And sorry, just to circle back briefly, Tom Hanks first tries to sell her a load of bullshit. She doesn't buy it. Yeah. She almost buys it. He's like, we're barely, we're just affecting. First he says, everything you saw was a misunderstanding. The money was flying because he doesn't believe in banking, this and this and that. That's one of my favorite moments because I feel like both of those characters have to operate at a higher level of intelligence because it's like, I don't buy this. And he's like, oh, I have to make my lies better to fool this lady. It is my favorite Hanks performance moment, which is in that scene when he finally goes like, let me level with you.

2:01:32David Sims:We are not musicians of the Rococo era, nor any other era, right? We are criminals. And in one sustained shot, the light behind Hanks' eyes goes out. All of the effort he does to play Charming, when he hits the word criminals, he starts looking evil without doing anything demonstrably huge on his face. And establishing the importance of eyes in film acting. They gotta be alive. But then he admits to her, this is what we did because of the insurance policy. It's not like anyone lost their money. It's$1 added onto everyone's plan, and we could cut you into this and give you money to donate to Bob Jones University.

2:02:08David Sims:She says it's not right.

2:02:10Griffin Newman:She almost gets there. And then she gives up. I like thinking that I like thinking you're gonna hand the money back I like thinking it's never occurred to me that that moment where Tom Hanks literally like drains the life from his eyes it was that he maybe thought back to my Band of Brothers audition quite possibly I saw an actor do something once if I can pull it off in this moment then maybe we got a movie

2:02:32David Sims:it truly is he goes Connor mode so Marlon

2:02:34Griffin Newman:is flashes back to his mother yeah he's trying to shoot her that doesn't really work

2:02:39David Sims:with a handgun and a pillow

2:02:40Griffin Newman:and so then he comes back and gets shot in a struggle with J.K. Simmons.

2:02:44David Sims:With Pancake. Pancake has been angling for a bigger cut. A, he brings Mountain Girl into the arrangement, which was not agreed upon. She enters the circle of trust and they agree that she's going to have to split his share. But then he also loses his finger. An explosion wants workman's comp.

2:03:02Griffin Newman:Yes.

2:03:02David Sims:Is not granted it. J.K. Simmons, of course, at this point, he was just such a reliable, funny guy. This is their first film with him? Yeah, but I mean, like in any movie. The first, same year as Spider-Man 2. Right. I love his character. I love his mustache. Mustache, great. I love his repeated, the Coen Brothers sort of cycle, repetition of both images and dialogue. And, you know, I like the rhythms of Coen Brothers films, the way he keeps going, just a trial balloon. He's pitching bad ideas. Easiest thing in the world. There's another good runner. Yes. But then he, yes, struggles with Marlon Wayans as they get into a fight.

2:03:39David Sims:They've been bickering the whole time.

2:03:40Griffin Newman:So that's Marlon dies. They throw him on the barge and we're like, okay, now we are in the people get thrown on the barge. Like, you know, this is the thing. Right.

2:03:48David Sims:Then Zima is up next. Another thing that makes me laugh every time he swallows the cigarette.

2:03:53Griffin Newman:Well, it only happens once or twice, right? he hides the cigarette is what you're referring to and then he's able to kick it back out which is great Zima is the best part of this movie but he dies because he swallows the cigarette he's startled no what happens next is Pancake tries to escape with the money and Zima kills them and then he tries to kill her but is startled by a cuckoo clock swallows his cigarette falls down the stairs Pancake tries to escape

2:04:21David Sims:while the rest of them are disposing of Gawain's body there's a gag that I didn't remember noticing the first time and it feels like the type of gag it didn't make me laugh it's a little mean-spirited but I it felt like the type of thing that's like I bet the Coens enjoyed this detail which is that when uh J.K. Simmons and Mountain Curl are both killed so they have two bodies to dispose of and you see them holding these legs with boots and pretty hairy legs and you're like oh that must be J.K. Simmons they drop the body and then you see the next body and the legs are even hairier

2:04:49Griffin Newman:yes yes um the I the Zima one is the one that I think is good because it's physical humor that's part of the story. It's part of the house they're in. Marlon Wayans one is kind of an anti-climax. The Ryan Hurst, the character we haven't mentioned because he's not that interesting. Although I do think

2:05:08David Sims:it's a good performance. And after this, he becomes like... He's the Sons of Anarchy guy. Right. And he was on Walking Dead. He becomes, after this, exclusively big, weird, bearded, soulful, haunted man.

2:05:20Griffin Newman:He basically has a change of heart and is like, actually, maybe we should turn ourselves in. Which is the same thing

2:05:27David Sims:that happens in the original. Tries to shoot.

2:05:28Griffin Newman:That one round

2:05:30David Sims:Hanks fails. Doesn't want to kill him. Shoots himself. Yes. By mistake. I think it's a good gag. It's not bad. Physically it works. And that he basically, right, just immediately falls over. Yeah.

2:05:40Griffin Newman:And then Dora thinks he's gotten away with it and he's going to take all the money and then gets clocked in the head with a, you know. Gargoyle with a raven on top. He loves Edgar Allan Poe and the gargoyle is the opening shot of the movie. And he breaks his neck classic Gwen Stacy style. And the anti-climax aspect of it, which also comes from the original, which is that these things sort of happen and are like, oh, they sort of just like, one dies, then the other. The problem kind of completely solves itself. You have like a villain, a comedic villain who's set up in both versions where you're like sort of waiting for him to do the villainous thing.

2:06:14David Sims:He's presented as a criminal mastermind. In both cases, you're like, is this guy just a total blowhard? In neither movie does that character ever truly, you never see him actually like kill somebody in a way that feels like, oh, this is the moment we've been waiting for. In the Ealing one, there's the bit with Herbert Lom where he's crowbarring the fucking ladder. That feels like the closest to him sort of screwing a guy over. But in this one, it feels like Hanks is going to have to kill the strong, dumb guy and then he doesn't. And it's like, oh, I didn't have to do that beat that we're sort of anticipating from the beginning.

2:06:47David Sims:But he's just immediately. And then we're thinking, oh, now we're going to see he's going to have to do the killing and then the movie takes care of it before you ever have to have a scene where he tries and fails to kill. Yes.

2:06:59Griffin Newman:Yeah, you know, it's all right. Deacon's popping off at this point, I would say.

2:07:03David Sims:Let me map a couple things here, okay? First of all, I just think this movie looks incredible. Yeah, it looks good. I think, like... Yeah, Deacon's is great. If we're not viewing this through the prism of the Coen Brothers filmography, which I know is the main exercise of the show, and we're thinking, like, this is just a touchstone comedy that is released in April, I do the mental exercise of watching this movie of being like, what if this was directed by a first-timer? Because of course it is. It is. What if this came out of the blue and it was like, oh, it's directed by some guy who did commercials before this?

2:07:34David Sims:I do think I'd be like, that movie isn't great, but who the fuck directed this? It is like so well-constructed. Obviously, you think it's lifeless. I think it's got energy. Not lifeless, but low energy. Every time it does one of the Trouble This World montages, I'm really kind of like in on the kinetic energy of the motion of this movie and the way it uses the music, the look of it, the performances, the styling. Like, I think on a basic craft level, it is not, like, markedly a step down from their best work. You could just say all of that craft is applied to something that is less worthy of their craft than most of their films, but it's not like they have a film in their filmography where it's like, that's a complete fucking drop of the ball fart.

2:08:19David Sims:It's incompetent. it is lacking identity I think this movie benefits from going into it I think everybody who watches it at this point I think it's to the benefit if you go in with a feeling of like this is their worst one absolutely lower your expectations you gotta watch it that way and at this point we also don't have to watch it with the fear of like fuck have they lost it and it's like hey guess what right after this they won best picture they've continued to make great films this wasn't the end of a golden age for them this just becomes a weird blip and there are things they do in this film that it's not like they just made a film that's like, well, it's like a bad version of this other film of theirs.

2:08:59There are, the things that I find pleasurable in this movie aren't just things where I'm like, oh, I could just go watch Barton Fink again and I'll get that out of it.

2:09:07David Sims:And I know you like Burn After Reading less than me, David. Yeah, I know. That is a movie I love, but Burn After Reading is actually weirdly similar to this one and feels like a much better version of this, even down to like the comedic deaths and the misunderstanding and all of that, that movie, I would argue, has a point of view that this film does not have. I, well, I tend to think... Yeah, I think that movie has more, right, more driving its tone. It has ideas in it that relate to the way that Joel and Ethan see the world, whereas this is a comedy about comedy. Like, it's not actually about me.

2:09:41I'm going to push back on that slightly and say this, because I always tend to think of their next film as a trilogy, their next three films as a trilogy of sorts, because I always feel like No Country for Old Men is about this sort of, it's the drama version of like, there's an evil, there's a darkness in the world and we're going to look at these systems that are trying to deal with it, but ultimately like, can they? Maybe they're not built for it. Burn After Reading always feels to me like the comic B-side of No Country for Old Men. The same world, the same fucked up systems, but instead it's all these ridiculous bureaucratic fools that are sort of, they don't even know what's going on.

2:10:12Both movies end with a similar thing, which is like, I don't know what's going on. Maybe none of this mattered

2:10:16David Sims:or meant anything. And then a serious man sort of like takes an even broader view of the universe in a way. And now I'm sort of for the first time thinking of Lady Killers as being sort of like a pre... Like those four movies, because there is a worldview to this in the sense of you have a main character who is put forward as like a smart person who is well-intentioned. but in this world where you have these like bad men who are trying to do something, she's ultimately going to like get this windfall of money at the end and donate it to, and I, I pray their lawyers aren't listening. Bob Jones university.

2:11:00Oh, this is a comedy podcast. In many ways, I gotta be allowed to joke and riff.

2:11:06David Sims:Comedy is about pushing boundaries. Sometimes we miss. Please do not sue this. Please don't sue us. Please. And if you want to sue us, I want to remind you that the opinions expressed by Conor Ratliff do not reflect the opinions of Blank Check Podcast or Blank Check Productions overall. They are the opinions of one individual. Please sue Conor Ratliff. Oh, please. But please also don't. Don't sue him. But if you're going to sue us, sue him. But I do feel like that is a subversive ending at the beginning of a series of, I think the endings of the next three Coen Brothers movies are all these like, oh my God, that's a way to end a movie.

2:11:40and I love the fact that this kind of like broad Disney comedy ends with like a happy ending that also has like if you know where the money is going this is a movie about a bunch of criminals who all die and the money ends up going someplace that is not a

2:11:55David Sims:ultimately like a happy ending no I also it is a funny thought experiment to consider if Barry Sonnenfeld had made this in 2004 with Nicolas Cage I don't think it would have been a big hit but I do think people would have been like kind of an upswing for Barry Sonnenfeld versus where it was at with the Coens like if he had made

2:12:16Griffin Newman:but this movie wouldn't be very good if Barry Sonnenfeld made it like even compared to the Coen version

2:12:22David Sims:but I also think it would have been a little similar of all of the films they made with Deakins this is the one that feels the most Sonnenfeld-y to me

2:12:30Griffin Newman:it's true but I just want to point out to you this thing in Barry Sonnenfeld's career where after Gett Shorty and in Black he makes absolutely abhorrently bad movies. I agree. And so it's sort of that thing of like, maybe he just didn't know

2:12:42David Sims:how to make a good movie anymore. But this feels like the kind of film he should have been making. That having been said, Big Trouble feels like him trying to get shorty again. He couldn't pull that off. Can I ask a question? Please. One of the things, one of the questions on doesthedogdie.com says... Good, good, good. No, no, we got to answer. I want to get out of here. David, we got to answer. If I, I'll tell you this, if I don't say what I'm about to say, your listeners are going to lose it. Connor, you're saying... Because they'll always wonder what was it. You're saying it right now and also I have to do a merchandise spotlight.

2:13:10David Sims:Connor, go on. The question under the category fear it says, are there ghosts? And the commenter says, no ghost appears but I am pretty sure that all of the stuff happens because of the ghost of the lady's dead husband. I like this. His portrait also continually changes throughout the movie and there are flickering candles. This movie has good hosts.

2:13:29Griffin Newman:What's the merchandise spotlight?

2:13:31David Sims:First you gotta say the sentence properly. What's the merchandise spotlight? David, your alma mater the AV Club, that has now gone through many different hands of corporate ownership and is a website that is like fucking nerfed to death and trying to read archives of the AV Club is a headache, especially any article that originally used to have images. They would do a yearly feature. Do you remember Swagology? A feature I loved when I was young that was in an era before social media where people share this stuff all the fucking time. The AV Club once a year would do a roundup of all the promotional items they had gotten from studios for TV shows and movies, new releases.

2:14:09David Sims:And they would rate what's the best and what's the worst swag we got. And in 2004, they referenced that the fine folks at Walt Disney Pictures sent them a Lady Killers branded waffle iron. To your point about the waffles being the main hook of the marketing, I think it's because, by the way, that scene in a microcosm is what in theory the comic juice of this movie should be, which is this guy acts like this and has to confront the real world being like, why are you talking like that? And why are you dressed like that? The inherent comedy of him ordering waffles at the Waffle House in a way that no one understands.

2:14:47Griffin Newman:I'm not finding a single thing about this on the air.

2:14:48David Sims:I was doing such deep Googling. I found them referencing it in a later Swagology. I have been looking for years to find one on eBay. I've never found an image of one. I remember there being one at AV Club at the time, but in their 2009 swagology, they talk about getting swag from Gordon Ramsay's Hotel Hell and Kitchen Nightmares and they say this will go in our pantry right next to our Lady Killers waffle iron. It exists. And if any one of our listeners can find one or send me one, please, please, I need to know I'm not crazy. Can I just hop on real quick? I know that Griffin put out the offer first.

2:15:26If anyone has one, please send one his way. If someone has two? Yes. I really love that second one. I don't want to rain on Griffin's bread. I really want that. Someone's like, I got two of these. What am I going to do? March 26, 2004. March 26, 2004.

2:15:37Griffin Newman:First in the box office, Griffin, is opening number two to$12 million. It ends up making 30. It made, domestically, it made 30. What are the numbers? Nine. It cost like 40. About 35 to 40.

2:15:51David Sims:Which is pretty crazy considering that Hanks probably got 20 or close to.

2:15:55Griffin Newman:There's no way he got 20.

2:15:57David Sims:What do you think he got? 10, 15? A lot less. My man took a haircut on this one?

2:16:01Griffin Newman:100%. I'm sure he was way below his court on this.

2:16:03David Sims:The budget was under$40 ,000. It made$70 ,000-something worldwide? Yeah, it probably... And how much money were they stealing in the heist from the casino? That's a great question. In the original, it's$60 ,000. I'm guessing it's like$600 ,000 in this. I don't know. Yeah. Because I'd love to know how much more money the movie made than the heist was. Quite a bit. That'd be like a fun segment. In that sense, it was kind of a success.

2:16:25Griffin Newman:Number one at the box office is a sequel. Okay. Sort of a family... I guess. It's a family adjacent movie. Sort of genre. I'm sure you were there opening weekend. 2004. Is it live action or animated? It's live action with some animated characters.

2:16:38David Sims:You say I was there opening weekend derisively. That means, of course, it has to be Scooby-Doo 2 colon Monsters Unleashed. It's one of my favorite subtitles, but it is also one of the worst titles of all time. No. Because they should have done Scooby 2, Scooby T-O-O, Scooby-Doo. There's so many opportunities there and they whiffed on all of them. Scooby-Doo-Bee-Doo. Scooby-Doo-Bee 2. Scooby-Doo-Bee 2. Any of these they could have done and they did not. It's just called Scooby-Doo numeral 2 colon Monsters Unleashed, a movie with a great premise and terrible execution written by James Gunn.

2:17:17Griffin Newman:Scooby-Doo 2. Monsters Unleashed. Opening to a healthy$29 million for a movie that bad.

2:17:21David Sims:But the first one came out in the middle of the summer and opened to like 55. It was the biggest opening weekend Warner Brothers had had. Yeah, I mean, I think this one's... The whole cast talks about that they felt like they dumped it coming off a big hit. Yeah. Yeah. And it ends up at like 90?

2:17:38Griffin Newman:It ends up at 84. It does like half of what the previous, yeah. Number three at the box office is the actual box office success of this era, this moment. I believe it's called The Passion of the Christ. That is correct. One of the most successful movies of all time. In five weeks, it has made$315 million. Insane. Number four at the box office is a collabo between the two most recent people to be involved with Superman. Oh, it's Dawn of the Dead? Yes. So Gunn has two movies in theaters. Zack Snyder's Dawn of the Dead, which has a 60 % drop after being number one last weekend. But nonetheless, a decent hit.

2:18:13Griffin Newman:Yes, and a good movie. Number five at the box office, probably drawing a lot of fire away from Tom Hanks sort of having a bit of a flop on his hand. Someone else is flopping harder. Is a huge flop. A notorious flop? I would say somewhat notorious. directed by someone who's been on this show multiple times. Who's been a guest on this show? Two times. Two-time guest.

2:18:33David Sims:A two-time guest directed a huge flop. It's him swerving

2:18:37Griffin Newman:to a more sort of like kind of grown-up type movie. Doesn't work. Is it in good company? No. That's a good movie. Yeah. That's why I'm confused.

2:18:45David Sims:Oh, and that was also Paul Solo, right? I believe so.

2:18:47Griffin Newman:Yeah. Okay. No, but it's more... It's not a particularly big hit, but it gets a lot of press because of the star and another of CoStar and the press around them at the time unrelated to this movie.

2:19:00David Sims:Was there a romantic entanglement? In 2004. And they were swinging serious. It's more grown up. It's a comedy. A light comedy. Yes. The film is called Jersey Girl. Yes. Kevin Smith's Jersey Girl. Not a bad film at all. It's totally fine. It is so much better than its reputation suggests. I do believe...

2:19:18Griffin Newman:But obviously it's hammered by the press.

2:19:19David Sims:He at his Atlantic Smodcastle Theater that he owns in New Jersey, I think they have once or twice in the last couple of years done secret screenings of his director's cut that I've heard is quite a bit better. That is a movie that obviously there was a lot of Weinstein panic cutting around J-Lo after Gilly bombed where they were trying to hide her in the movie. But either way, she dies in the first act. Anyway, not a bad film.

2:19:43Griffin Newman:Number six in the box office is Taking Lives. That's the Angelique, DJ Caruso. Yeah, not a good movie. No. Number seven is

2:19:51David Sims:Starsky and Hutch. Yeah, really kind of not a good movie.

2:19:55Griffin Newman:What a terrible movie. I remember enjoying it. Sort of skates along. Right. It's got a couple of moments. I do remember there was a point where I was checking out movies from the New York Public Library when I realized you could check them out on DVD. And that was a movie that had such a long waiting list that you would never be... It had like hundreds of holds. That's so funny. So it's like, oh, you'd never be able to get Starsky and Hodge from the New York Public Library. They just didn't have enough copies to meet with demand for people who wanted that movie for free.

2:20:21David Sims:Todd Phillips did an interview when that movie came out where he was like, we're not trying to do like a parody of the original show. We're not trying to do a Brady Bunch movie thing. Our pitch was like, this was the original pilot for Starsky and Hutch and the network said, can you make it 10 % less funny? And then I remember seeing the movie and going, that's exactly what it is and that's a weird thing to aim for.

2:20:41Griffin Newman:That's not weighted, but it was a solid hit. It did well. Number eight of the box office, a bit of a, it did okay, but a bit of a flop. The Viggo Mortensen film Hidalgo. That's a big flop. Well, how much money do you think it made, though? It cost over$100 million. It was an expensive movie, but it made$70, which is like, you know, it's like... Big flop. Number nine of the box office is a film about a window. I'm seeing here that it's a secret window. Okay, let

2:21:06David Sims:me guess what this is. Give me a hint. Who's the lead actor? Johnny Depp. Fuck. Is it based on the work of a famous writer? Probably. Stephen King, you're fucking up my bed. I know, I forgot. It's a secret window.

2:21:18Griffin Newman:Number ten of the box office, and people forget how early this film...

2:21:21David Sims:I'm counting that as a win

2:21:21Griffin Newman:that I got that one correct because I would have if David hadn't spoiled it. I got you. Number 10 of the box office, people forget how early this film came out in the year, Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind. Yeah. Which, of course, goes on to win an Oscar. And number 11, opening just below all that, but a film we'll cover on the box office one day, the Ernest Dickerson film, Never Die Alone. It's like, what if DMX is the lead rather than kind of like the off ball? Well,

2:21:44David Sims:but the movie opens with DMX's death and then it's David Arquette investigating the life of a guy via flashback.

2:21:50Griffin Newman:Oh, so did he die alone? I think he did. And David Arquette turns to the camera at the end. He's like, and that's why you should never die alone. It's an interesting movie. I've never seen it.

2:21:57David Sims:It's a pretty good film. Cool. I remember going to see it with my friend in high school and being like, oh, this is going to be like exit wounds, like DMX, just like being a badass. And then it's kind of a character study. Fascinating.

2:22:06Griffin Newman:All right, I'll check out Never Die Alone. Save it for the series. Maybe I will. He actually has made quite a lot of movies. It might be tough. Ernest? Yeah. I did a count recently. It's doable. I think some of them are TV movies.

2:22:16David Sims:Yeah, I circle back. I always check the viability of a candidate. Oh, Connor. Do you want to leave us with any final Tom Hanks thoughts? Because I feel like we didn't discuss his performance enough. David was rushing us along.

2:22:28Griffin Newman:We talked about Tom Hanks for a fucking hour. He's been committed to the idea of this being the worst episode ever. I want to go see the gay movie. I have to go see a gay movie. You have to go see a gay movie? What movie? Yeah, it's the one where they kiss. Oh, that one. Mescol and O 'Connor.

2:22:41David Sims:Okay. I think. Is that who it is? I didn't realize there's an artificial. Do we think? shot clock on this movie.

2:22:46Griffin Newman:On this episode. Yeah. Do we think that Pickles is the descendant of Ulysses from Inside Llewyn Davis? He's talking about animals. David's leaving the room. He doesn't want, he says, David's scratching his butt and slamming the bathroom door. He was off mic. He said, he's talking about animals. As if that was somehow, did I miss a memo? We're not allowed to talk about And I just want to make it clear that he said this, as he muttered this, he stood up and scratched his butt. No wonder he got so, I didn't realize there was a no talking about animals rule in the podcast, I am so sorry that I violated that.

2:23:18Obviously, the dog stuff, I really like. Connor, it's not your fault. I shouldn't have brought it. That's why he got so mad every time I mentioned that website.

2:23:24David Sims:He sent us an inner office memo recently. No more animal talk. He said, I am hereby forbidding animal talk from the podcast. Also, no poppins. Oh. Do you remember no poppins? Do you get the joke I'm making? No poppins? Mary Poppins? There was a... Steve Harvey sent out a memo to the entire staff of his talk show. And the first thing on it was, no poppins. do not let someone come visit my dressing room before a show, but he described it as no pop-ins. Sounds like something that Mr. Banks would have said. Yeah, absolutely. We gotta save that guy.

2:23:54Griffin Newman:There's no record of this waffle iron on the internet.

2:23:59David Sims:I know. I had to do such deep Googling to find. I will screenshot it. He made it up. And we will post on social media the AV Club write-up that still acknowledges it. But I searched really hard last night to find the proof because I was like, am I imagining this? We gotta get two of these. We gotta get two. I'll be so sad if we only ever find one for Griffin and then I'm just left with... Connor is a delight having you on. Connor triples is best. Maybe we should get three. No, triples is best. Oh, sorry. I accidentally felt like we were about to wrap up the episode. That's a weird energy floating around here.

2:24:32David Sims:I have so much more to say about the lady killer. David, what if we only talk about humans? Can we keep the episode

2:24:36Griffin Newman:going a little longer? No, you guys keep talking. He needs to go to his screen. I'm going. We just keep going. It's fine. Yeah, you guys have fun. Connor, it really is so much fun having you on the show. Thank you for having me here. I want to deliver you a true compliment. Sometimes I'm coming to this show, you know, we got a podcast scheduled. Maybe we have some guests that I don't know. And there's the slight nerves of like, what's that going to be like, right? You coming on this show, I truly was like walking into the studio like, I'm going to have a good time this morning. Did you have a good time?

2:25:01Griffin Newman:Absolutely.

2:25:01David Sims:That's a lovely compliment. And he hasn't given a compliment in a decade. Wow. To anyone. I keep him close to the chest. Can I?

2:25:08Griffin Newman:I actually have a bunch of letters that on my death will be released that are compliments for everyone. Flowery compliments written in cursive. That's a nice thought.

2:25:14David Sims:Ben, you're a good listener. Right. It's like, that's the full letter he weighed until his death to tell him he didn't say that? Can I put that compliment into my press quotes and say it's from The Atlantic? Absolutely. All right. All right. I'll see you later.

2:25:29Griffin Newman:All right. See you later. Truly lovely to talk to. Too bad I don't like this movie. I wish I liked it a little more. That's a great wish. What if that came true? What a waste of a wish. That seems like

2:25:37David Sims:a gigantic waste of a wish. My stance is I give this film barely a passing grade, which means to me they have never made a truly bad film. But you've seen it four times. But this is their absolute worst movie. Yeah, I've seen it four times. I would love it if like the Blue Fairy from the Zemeckis version of Pinocchio came to you tonight and was like, your wish is granted. You now like the Lady Killers. I'm like, great. No more wishes. No more wishes. My girlfriend and I were watching the Ealing movie last night and she was like, and everyone hates the Cone one. And I was like, yeah, let me just show you the opening scene of what Hanks does so you can see how weird it is.

2:26:12David Sims:I want to know what she thought. And I put it on and she goes like, this is funny. I like this. And I was like, right. I'm going to take a shower. But if you want to keep watching, feel free. I go take a shower. I come out. I'm like, what do you think? She was like, um, I like parts of it. And I was like, really, it's lost you? And she was like, I'll admit, after two minutes of you in the shower, I started checking my phone a lot. And I was so ready for her to back me up. and she immediately was like, I kind of get what other people are saying. Yeah, I would. It's not a movie I would ever fight with.

2:26:40If someone's like, I don't like it. It's not like I'm going to convince you. No, I did not break up with my girlfriend on the spot over there. That would be weird. But I do find pleasure in the things that work in this movie. I do as well.

2:26:49Griffin Newman:I find pleasure in so much stuff and I love all you guys and I'll see you on Thursday. All right. Did we get any of that on my... We'll see. He was projecting. I like the way it feels when someone leaves a podcast and you hear them go away. It makes you feel like you're really in the space.

2:27:01David Sims:I mean, now we can actually get to it. Every now and then when you're in a movie theater and they make a really bold choice about having a sound happen in the back corner of the theater. And it pulls you out of the movie in a way that you're like, that's a big choice. These are also these are the reasons I love this show not being on video. You know what I'm saying? They're sort of like theater of the mind. And like you heard David get further away from the mic and then a door shut. The flush of the toilet.

2:27:25Griffin Newman:I'm kind of thinking maybe to mirror the movie. One of us should each get up and leave. Oh, it's like he went on the barge that him leaving there was the first one.

2:27:34David Sims:Let me make sure my devices are synced in terms of Disney Emoji Blitz. Just if I'm going to leave abruptly, I have to. Yeah, it does. I'm in a really good place, actually. I really feel like, and I hope that people have enjoyed, because I know that sometimes listeners, they're like, oh, well, I'll enjoy the movies that I like. But it's actually sometimes that's not the case. sometimes it's more fun to hear people talk about a movie where there's a little bit more interesting stuff to chew on because some Coen Brothers movies, like I texted you at one point and I said, I don't want to do Lady Killers anymore.

2:28:07You really want to do Barton Fink. Because Barton Fink is not just my favorite Coen Brothers movie. It's one of my top four favorite movies of all time.

2:28:14David Sims:And we had literally like just promised it to White the day before you texted me that. And I was just like, he wants to do it for a lot of reasons. He feels really strongly. We feel really strongly. I'd still love you to do Lady Killers. And it makes sense for me to do this one, given all the Dead Eyes crossover and everything. And he's stealing your moves in this movie. Oh, yeah, my Dead Eyes move. But I just saw a quote about Barton Fink in that new John Goodman interview that's out, where he specifically said he wishes he could go back and redo some things about Barton Fink. It's crazy. And I'm like, what on earth could you be talking about?

2:28:50David Sims:Look, we've been doing a lot of Goodman this year. and he, I say this all the time, no actor of his stature is more publicly self-critical than Goodman. It is incredible how unsatisfied he seems to be with everything he's ever done. And I'm like, that's a guy who is so natural, makes it seem so effortless and always hits for me. And he's like, I watch Barton Fink and I like shudder. As much - I think I fucked it up. Oh no, he's perfect. It's crazy. there's one part of that movie that I don't like can you guess what it is? no but I just had a big thought tell me what it is because I need to hold on to this thought there's one scene that I bump on it just feels a little bit like always feels a little out of place to me and it's the part where he's at the USO dance and he's doing his like silly dance oh sure and yelling at people and there's something about it tonally that feels like it's from another movie and every other scene in that movie feels perfect to me and that one scene I always whenever I get to it I'm always like I like the sailors fighting with him though I know what you're saying about the dance itself yeah there's something about it that seems a little bit too like it it looks like a scene that if you saw it as a deleted scene you'd be like I know why that didn't make it in it kind of doesn't I had a humongous thought just now this all just came together for me and I can't believe David's not here to hear this and I hope he never hears it I want to make it clear.

2:30:17David Sims:I hope he never listens back to this. For everyone on Earth but David. And if you're listening to the show, never, and you meet David, or you already know David, and you see him again, never repeat this to him. But maybe say, I know something from the podcast that you don't know. And refuse to explain it. Yeah. Would this movie work better with John Goodman in the Tom Hanks part? I was literally, that was my next point I was about to make, that Hanks is kind of doing a Goodman performance in this, right? In terms of, like, the bigness and like much as I enjoy Hanks' performance in this to imagine John Goodman in the role is to imagine an effortless seeming performance.

2:30:54David Sims:And John Goodman's kind of better at like charming menace than anyone. Like he would know how to make this character scary and funny at the same time. I think you would be more genuinely scared for Irma P. Hall's safety if it was John Goodman. And I think when he dies at the end you'd be like yes we did it. Like you'd feel a relief that he had been wiped off the board. Goodman in this would... Ben, if they don't kill the dog and it's Goodman, and Goodman is doing foghorn leghorn. I would

2:31:24Griffin Newman:like to see that. I would like to see that. It's hard for me to say that I... I would maybe like it.

2:31:32David Sims:Is there anything you liked about this movie? Or was it like a total? You liked it when it was over.

2:31:36Griffin Newman:You liked the tunneling.

2:31:37David Sims:It's a big part of the movie. Huge part of the film. I liked the tunneling. Zima with the cigarette? That's quite impressive. That's a good part of it. Were you amused when he was hiding under the bed and she was saying, what are you having tea under the bed for? It's just a funny thing for someone to witness and imagine that this old lady has an imaginary friend named the professor who drinks tea under the bed. And to imagine that Tom Hanks hiding under the bed and getting caught under the bed would still work. Right. And that he's shushing her, right? And that in her mind, she's like, this is funny that he's playing this game of saying shush.

2:32:12That he thinks he can get away with it. It's a great scene in which each character is kind of correct about what's going on. Like, they always have their own version of what's happening.

2:32:21David Sims:And it leads to the ultimate victory of them not taking her credibly when she confesses and offers to give them back the money, which then leads to her giving all the money to Bob Jones University. And Connor, is there anything you want to say about Bob Jones University on the record that is your viewpoint, not ours? I don't know a lot about them. Everything that I've heard has been unimpressive to me. And if that's a crime, throw me in prison. Okay, Ben's going to leave. That's getting a little too hot for him. And of course, I hope that my big, big hope always, and I tweet about it every few years or post about it on social media, that the one sequel the Coen brothers claim they're going to make is Old Fink.

2:33:05David Sims:Old Fink would rule. It's the best thing they could reunite to make now that they're in this extended rumspring of working with their wives and not with each other. And the last I heard of it was them saying that they thought that Turturro was aging better than they had hoped. We're past the age because they wanted to be Barton Fing in the Summer of Love. We're past the age chronologically where that should have happened. But I think they want their idea of what John Turturro as an old man is, is still... The guy's aging great, but he doesn't look young. Yeah, and I think, you know, that's what movie magic.

2:33:43I want to see what the Fink hairdo in the late 60s is. I can only imagine the Fink hairdo

2:33:48David Sims:in the late 60s. I, you know, basically, I just can't believe the Dial of Destiny beat them to it. We already got, we got old Indiana Jones before we got old Fink. Old Jones, yeah. And I, and I don't even worry about, like, Barton Fink is a movie that just means so much to me. It captures so much. Um, it's a movie I think about constantly. And I'm not scared whether old think is good or bad because I'm not one of those people who thinks like, oh, it gets ruined if you don't like, like, I don't, I never think that way because I always. You never think that way. I never think that way. That's not how I think.

2:34:23That's not how I think, governor. Yeah. That's not how I think. Um, I, I always prefer the notion of like, just try it. Try to do the thing. I agree. If you have the idea, if you have the impulse and if it doesn't work out. No slate off the original. It's the same way that like that that's ultimately I know David really hated the argument of that. We were I don't remember exactly what he was objecting to. But but when I when I think about lady killers and what works about it and what doesn't. I always just land on the side of I'm glad they tried this because especially now knowing it wasn't a dead end for them.

2:34:59Well, especially now talking in terms of moose porting because we're going to introduce the concept of moose porting this late. Well, all right. Because I haven't said this on the pod. I've only just said this to you in person, right? This is a great, great place to introduce it. So with the recent passing of Gene Hackman, I had never seen the movie Welcome to Mooseport.

2:35:18David Sims:Yeah. Let me make clear as well. My father had prostate surgery on the day that Gene Hackman died. I was in the hospital waiting room for him to be released. and you called me and you pitched the idea of moose porting to me on the day of Gene Hackman's death. The body, I was going to say the body was still warm, but of course, when they discovered him, he had been dead for a couple of weeks. But this is the context in which I received the idea of moose porting for the first time is hospital waiting room. All right. And it's as good a place as any to receive this idea. So if you're listening to this in a hospital waiting room, congratulations, you're pulling the same classic move that Griffin did.

2:35:59if you're near a hospital, we don't want people overcrowding the waiting rooms in hospitals. But if you're near a hospital and you see the waiting room is basically empty, maybe walk inside, listen to the zest part. Or hit pause, go. Well, we also don't want people draining the Wi-Fi from people who need it. But anyway. Only sign on if you need it. I had never seen Welcome to Mooseport. When it came out at the time, it was poorly received. I just didn't see it. I didn't see it. But I always thought I will see it eventually. And then eventually it became sort of canonized. as Gene Hackman didn't make any more movies, people were like, I can't believe his last movie was Welcome to Mooseport.

2:36:34It kind of has this reputation of like, I can't believe.

2:36:36David Sims:He lived for another 20 years and Welcome to Mooseport remained his final film. And so he died. And I thought, you know what? I should see Welcome to Mooseport now. And it occurred to me that maybe I will enjoy it more because now I have a different context. Maybe I will appreciate now that there aren't going to be any new Gene Hackman performances. I will just appreciate aspects of it that wouldn't have been as enjoyable to me back when it originally came out. And I did watch it, and there were a few things I really did enjoy. And I do think it was enhanced by just appreciating seeing him. Now, by happenstance, the day you're pitching this to me, the day of Gene Hackman's death, I had watched Mooseport for the first time within the two weeks leading up to that.

2:37:22David Sims:For whatever weird reason, I got on a run of watching Donald Petrie films. Donald Petrie directed Welcome to Mooseport. He directed the Macaulay Culkin, Richie Rich. He directed the first Miss Congeniality. Wow, you filled up a whole dish. And there was another Petrie I watched. For some reason, I got in a Petrie run, and I was like... You were filling up your Petrie dish. Right, I was like, Petrie's kind of an interesting journeyman comedy filmmaker who had some big hits and some big misses, but never really had a defined identity, right? And I was like, maybe it's time to watch Mooseport. And I watched Mooseport, and you were pitching Mooseporting to me.

2:37:55David Sims:And I thought the framework you were pitching was specifically watching a movie that was disregarded at the time because of the context in which it was released, that now with some distance plays a lot better removed from that burden, right? However, whatever was held against it at the time. and I said to you and you said I think it should be a thing that we start doing and calling mooseporting that mooseporting should be the verb for going through that process of reclaiming a movie that was a victim of circumstance and timing and I said to you Connor I have watched this film in the last two weeks and it is not very good I do not know how much of a bump you're going to get from re-watching it in the wake of his passing and you said that maybe mooseporting is just the term for filling in a gap in someone's film demography after they die.

2:38:45David Sims:And since then, I feel like you have morphed it again to just be filling in a gap. Well, it's specifically a thing you it doesn't like going back and seeing an old Orson Welles movie, something that came out before you were born. That's not mooseporting. It's something that you could have gone to see at the time you passed on it for whatever reason. You missed it. You maybe didn't even know it existed. And things kind of dismissed with a shrug. Lady Killers is the kind of movie that a lot of our listeners might be mooseporting. A lot of them will be mooseporting. I'll also say this. I want to clarify.

2:39:13It's not... I just said something and I realized, no, that's not mooseporting. If you didn't know that a movie existed, that's not mooseporting. It has to be something that you actively, like, knew it existed, didn't see it. Never bothered to watch it. And then you go back. But you were making an... I recently mooseported the movie It's Pat, and I realized that a lot of the... Well, it's better than its reputation. Certainly, there's a lot to recommend. We don't have time for that right now. No, that's its own episode. But I realized there were a lot of SNL movies that I didn't see in the 90s.

2:39:42David Sims:Oh, so you're doing a big SNL movie. I never saw Coneheads. I never saw Stuart Saves His Family. Coneheads I really like. I never saw Night at the Roxbury. I never saw Superstar. There's a lot of these movies. First half of Roxbury. Never saw The Ladies' Man. On fire, yeah. Any of those movies, if I saw them now, let's say they're all C -. There still might be a part of me now that is nostalgic for that era of comedy. We don't get that kind of character comedy. The last SNL movie was MacGruber, which is now 15 years old. and that was itself the first one in about a decade? If you go see a movie like that in the theater when it comes out and you think it's 25 % funny, you still feel like, ugh, 75 % of that was not worth it.

2:40:19Now, in my dotage, as I near my 50th birthday... Congratulations. It may... Well, I haven't got there yet.

2:40:25David Sims:Okay, humble brag. I think I might... Those are examples of movies that are... They are on deck to be moose-ported because I think at this age, there are certain things... Even if I don't love them, even if I don't really like them, there'll be an element of appreciation that wouldn't have been there in its original context. I feel that way basically now whenever I watch any studio comedy because we never get them anymore and we never get them theatrically. And anytime I watch a true, pure theatrical comedy starring real comedy stars that has production value and any degree of craft behind it, I'm just like, this is automatically gaining another half star from me just because we're living in a vacuum of these types of movies.

2:41:08And I would say in an era now where we are awaiting, will the Coen brothers make another movie together? I think Lady Killers is an ideal moose port because there's a limited number of Coen brother movies. If you liked the other ones and you haven't seen this one, you're also getting to see Tom Hanks and these actors in this era. Yeah. And no matter what, they're not making 2004 era Tom Hanks movies anymore. They don't. He's older than that. This is a movie. I mean, they kind of are. Well, they did with here. They did that. They are kind of making.

2:41:42David Sims:But I think even if you dislike this movie as much as David and Ben did, I think this is a film worth moose porting and hopefully moose porting within the context that we're helping to provide of how strange it was that everyone made this movie and how it's at kind of a fulcrum point of career best work for everyone involved on either side of it. But it's interesting that they all met in this middle fallow sort of they met they met briefly in a pit and then all climbed out of it. And I also think, to be honest, the one thing that I would definitely say about this is I don't think that you could accuse this movie of like, well, this is the Coen brothers just phoning it.

2:42:19David Sims:It is not a phone in and it's not anonymous. It is. They are trying some things. Not all of those things work. But it's clearly built around things that they personally find funny and repeated themes and visual ideas that are throughout their entire filmography. And sometimes, honestly, like when you really like an artist, their flawed deep cuts sometimes are more more interesting to revisit than some perfect movies that you there are some movies of theirs that I've probably seen so much. This is the value of mooseboarding. Yes, this is. And moose porting is also great as you get older because it is a form of time travel.

2:42:56It is a way of revisiting things that you...

2:42:59David Sims:It's like a butterfly effect. You watch it and you imagine, how would my life have been different if I had seen this in theaters at the time? Because you have to, you can only moose port a movie that you were aware of when it was in first run. Charles Dickens knew about moose porting. In a way, he may have invented it with A Christmas Carol. Christmas Carol is kind of the ultimate tale of moose porting. Ultimately, it's like, you know there's some stuff that you missed Ebenezer and he's like I'm gonna and he's like I've seen some of this like you haven't seen this you haven't and he's like this feel this hits different for me now moose port past moose port yet to come yeah Connor spirit please no more moose porting Connor I have a podiatrist appointment but I'll of course just let you keep going is there you oh you're gonna go well is there anything you want to go so I'm gonna okay is there anything you want to plug oh um Connor Ratliff presents the acting class incredible on YouTube Griffin has appeared on a couple of...

2:43:48Twice now? It's a one-person improvised show. Occasionally I have a guest join me in my one-person improvised show. The great Jeff Heller recently? It pretends to be an... It's a one-person improvised show that pretends to be an acting class.

2:44:00David Sims:You do them live. You've been doing them in New York. You've been traveling a bit with them, but all of them go up on YouTube eventually? Most of them. And if you... What I would ask people is please subscribe to the YouTube channel because it is the thing that I want to... I'm going to give it another year and see if I can build it. It's an incredible show. I cannot endorse it enough. Everyone I know who has seen it is blown away. It is the kind of thing that I think only you can do and is a perfect vehicle for your unique mind. And I would like it to eventually be a thing because it's basically like a talk show where I make the guest improvise when I have a guest.

2:44:35And I really like the idea of it. I sort of want it to be like hot ones without the wings or the sauce. to just what's left.

2:44:46David Sims:I will say also, by the time this episode comes out, it will be close-ish to us doing the first George Lucas performances, George Lucas talk show in a little while, New York Comic Con. And I believe we have some New York show date set. We'll put the information in the episode description. Are you allowed to plug the Stitch comic? Oh, yeah. James III and I... Past and future guests, friend of the show. have written a series of eight issues of Stitch comics that Dynamite Comics is putting out. So we're writing official Disney comics. And basically, these are comics in which Jumba, he's in danger of losing membership in one of his evil guilds.

2:45:29And that's where he has his dental plan. And so he has to come up with a series of inventions to try to gain enough points so he doesn't lose membership in this evil organization. That's a really funny idea. And in each issue, he has a new invention that could be used for evil. Stitch usually does something that will then send things in a chaotic direction. And I think they're turning out really funny. I've seen the first two. Show me a couple pages. They were really funny. First two issues with the art back, and it's really good. So please check those out. I think the first issue is out in early August, and then monthly for eight months or whatever.

2:46:03David Sims:Connie, thank you for being here. I love you. Thank you so much. I'm going to wander away. Okay. Yeah, and I guess I'll just figure out how to end the episode. going onto a barge of garbage yeah, right, garbage barge of course, no, thank you thank you for being here, talk to you soon I love you I guess it's just me left alone with my lady killer's thoughts it's like a 6 out of 10 I acknowledge there are a couple major strikes against it so it's bordering on being like a 5.9 but I give it the 6 I prefer the sound of a B - over C +, even though I guess both are passing grades. Just getting to C territory, even if it was a passing grade, always felt like I can't hold my head high versus anything with a B.

2:46:51David Sims:I'm like, look, it's more good than bad. Rotten Tomatoes, 60 % positive reviews. That's the cutoff. I think this movie ended up at like 44. I think that's rude. It should have been 60. Right there, 60. It should have been barely fresh. Or if it were rotten, it should have been like a 59. Should have been a pretty high rotten or very low fresh. It's not a great film. It's deeply flawed, but I think compared to a lot of the worst movies we've covered on this show, pretty good standing if this is your worst film, especially for how many films they've made. Tune in next week for No Country for Old Men, a movie I don't think we'll argue about a lot.

2:47:32David Sims:It's pretty fucking great on Best Picture. It's not racist. which is definitely a feather in its cap. And as always, I think I'm just going to go jump on this garbage barge. Ride it all the way to my podiatrist appointment.

2:47:55Griffin Newman:Blank Check with Griffin and David is hosted by Griffin Newman and David Sims. Our executive producer is me, Ben Hosley. Our creative producer is Marie Barty Salinas. And our associate producer is AJ McKeon. This show is mixed and edited by AJ McKeon and Alan Smithy. Research by J.J. Birch. Our theme song is by Lane Montgomery in the Great American Novel, with additional music by Alex Mitchell. Artwork by Joe Bowen, Ollie Moss, and Pat Reynolds. Our production assistant is Minnick. Special thanks to David Cho, Jordan Fish, and Nate Patterson for their production help. Head over to BlankCheckPod.com for links to all of the real nerdy shit.

2:48:34Griffin Newman:Join our Patreon, Blank Check Special Features, for exclusive franchise commentaries and bonus episodes. Follow us on social at Blank Check Pod. Subscribe to our weekly newsletter, Checkbook, on Substack. This podcast is created and produced by Blank Check Productions.