The Man Who Wasn't There with Jordan Hoffman

8:37Griffin Newman:Well, indeed. But David, finish your thought here. Yeah. Well, our guest, of course, is Jordan Hoffman from The Messenger.

8:44David Sims:As you might remember in our last episode, Yentl from New York City. You talked about your exciting new job, an actual physical newspaper, the future. Can I? Yeah. So this is kind of funny. First of all, the last time. I'm only tinging you up for this because you said you wanted to discuss this. Well, the last time I was in this room was among the first times this room was used to record this podcast. I don't think that's true. It was one of the first, I'll tell you why I know this. For Yentl?

9:10Griffin Newman:For Yentl, it was on the early side. Because I watched, no, here's what happened. During the opening bit, before we recorded, when we were waiting for Griffin to show up. I don't know what you're talking about. I watched David pay his first rent check. The podcaster who wasn't there. Okay, interesting. And then he had to be like, oh, Christ, what's the rent on this place? And he had to like, look it up. It may not have been the first. No, you were looking it up. But the point I wanted to make. It doesn't. The specifics doesn't matter. Don't worry about Jordan. Let me get to the point. There's a point.

9:40Griffin Newman:I think it was 2023

9:41David Sims:and we moved in here in 2023. I watched it. No, but I'm saying that series kicks off 2023 calendar year. No, it kicks off the 24. So then it would have been fall 23. So I think we did move in here in 22, right? We did. I think David just doesn't know. He doesn't know how much the rent costs?

9:56Griffin Newman:I'm sorry. You know, yeah. But my point is this. He knows the rent is too damn high, but he doesn't know. When I came here, I try to do it at home. I try to do it at home in the morning, but sometimes the call of nature. And I did have to go into your restroom. The morning constitutional. I had to drop anchor in your restroom. And what happened, you weren't here yet and we were waiting. And I went in there.

10:15David Sims:This sounds impossible, but go on. And I was just floored, absolutely floored by the amount. And I recorded that. The amount of spare toilet paper in the restroom. And I dropped that I had just stocked up. You had just like$30. I bought like, right, because there was a Target promotion. Costco or something. I got like 372 packs. Yeah, yeah. Of ultra gentle. Oh, yeah. You have to go ultra gentle. But my point is this, not to be disgusting or scatological, but I just went back to the restroom, only for a number one this time. And I went back in there and I was flabbergasted at how much of that toilet paper still remains.

10:50I mean, I'm not shocked.

10:52Griffin Newman:We don't live here. So, like, it's not. It's like the Beatles. You hang out and help. You know, you hang out here all the time.

10:58David Sims:To be clear, that's not like, oh, we still have a lot left from what I bought in 2023. every time Target offers that deal, I jump on it.

11:06Griffin Newman:Okay, so Billy Bob Thorne. No, no, no, no. So here's the real reason I'm here. David, how dare you? The real reason I'm here. The last time I was here, I was working at this other company and I was all like, hey, guys, guys, you know, I took the day off work. You got to let me promote this new company. It's exciting to bring the paper back. The literal paper. I'm working for a new news outlet. You got to let me push it. The ink on the fingers. It'll make my bosses real happy. And you graciously allowed me to waste the listeners' time. And I talked about the glory of this new outlet. And then two weeks later, they folded.

11:36Griffin Newman:Well, I feel like, didn't they have like one week where they were like, AI slop only? And then they were like, forget it. Just fucking turn it off. What if we print the slop? It was sort of clickbait. What if fingerbait? It was a very... Printbait. It was a very public dissolution. I wrote an article about it. The Messenger was the name of the news outlet. And I wrote something funny about how it was a disaster to work for. so now I'm here to promote a new new outlet and you know what I like your boss a lot better this time oh and David knows all about it and now you're going to know about it through the listeners it's a new sub stack run by me where I publish what I want to publish and it's all great the only name you can trust in journalism it's called a Huff stack H-O-F-F stack

12:23David Sims:yeah this is Huff to table journalism

12:25Griffin Newman:Jordan I enjoy your sub stack Thank you. Wonderful. It has very much all of Jordan's interests. But you got to get back to reviewing New York City's library. Here we go.

12:36David Sims:I know you... And it's promised. If you go look at the sub stack, it's promised. You did a Sufjan, Steven, and New York City libraries as part of the sales pitch.

12:44Griffin Newman:You know, Sufjan was like, oh, doing all 50 states, baby. And you were like, I'm doing every New York City public library. I'm going to get in there and review the location. And I did a few of these. I know you moved to New Jersey. Well, that's the punchline is I don't live in New York City anymore. But you got to catch that bus, baby. Also fucking NJ library. Tell me about them. I know nothing. Yeah, I know even less. The books are on the different shelves over there. No, so I started doing write-ups of the different branch libraries. You know, which one has a smelling problem, which one has a this, where you could sleep.

13:14And then I moved. So I haven't been doing as much of that, but I'm doing my usual schtick, movies and life in general. And please, for the love of God, I would hope that if 2 % of the people listening, well, let's bump it up. 12 % of the people listening, how many listeners, 16 % of the people listening could get a monthly subscription. It would really help my bottom line. He's just asking for 19%. That's all he's asking for.

13:38Griffin Newman:Subscribe to JordanHoffman.substack.com. It's not expensive. It's$5 a month. It's less than whatever. You're not watching Landman. You're not watching Landman. It's Hofstack.substack.com.

13:47David Sims:Forget about your Paramount Plus Landman. You got to watch Landman. And look, we will settle for 22 % of our listenership.

13:53Griffin Newman:Jordan, you are a Star Trek fan. surely Paramount Plus is one of your why are you throwing them under the box that's a good point that's a very good point how great is Strange New Worlds it's so good I love that show I love that show too I just I have a lot of concerns about you know this new Starfleet Academy show yeah I'm suspicious Starfleet Academy this is the Giamatti Holly Hunter I love the cast Tatiana yeah Tatiana our friend of the show will be on it it's just you know Star Trek Discovery he's gonna everything I'll do this rant and I think Jordan sort of co-signs. I agree. David's playing with his baby Joey.

14:27Griffin Newman:You know, Star Trek Discovery, when it was launched, was like, hey, it's set sort of in the Kirk era, even though it's much, you know, glitzier, modern looking. And, you know, everyone was a little like, okay, you know, because, like, they've never really broached, like, what happened after, like, Star Trek Voyager, essentially. You know, like, we've never seen more of the sort of Star Trek timeline, right? Voyager is still the latest thing in the timeline.

14:49David Sims:I think Star Trek Nemesis, technically, was the last one. basically the answer to your question is sure yeah Voyager is the end you know and obviously

14:57Griffin Newman:we had the Abrams movies which were distinctly in their own timeline and all that stuff the Kelvin timeline right and then Star Trek Discovery was set in the Kirk era and then the fucking ship zapped to the 30th century or whatever the fuck it is for the last sort of two and a half seasons of that show and it was set in this kind of like far future where Starfleet is lost and they kind of rebuild it and blah blah blah blah And I sort of got it as like, okay, fine. You're setting it in your own little corner where you're not really going to fuck with anything. Quadrant. Indeed. And now the Starfleet Academy show is also set in the 30th century and is like following on from that.

15:35Griffin Newman:And I'm like, can we not just do Star Trek? Yeah, they're going in. And Strange New Worlds, of course, the show we like, is the one show where it's like, what if there was a spaceship and it went on missions that were kind of like episodes of the week and the crew had interpersonal dynamics. and everyone's like, we love this! Do this! And they keep not doing it. It's pretty bad.

15:54David Sims:This also remains my frustration with Star Wars, where I'm just like, why do we keep going back to the same corners, specifically in between, tight areas in between others?

16:05Griffin Newman:They've got like a little wedge that they're like, you know, like a little shim. They're like, I think there's two ears here. There's a week. Six ABY. Like, what was going on there? There's an hour

16:17David Sims:where Luke isn't accounted for.

16:19Griffin Newman:And I know, just to acknowledge my listeners, I know Star Trek Picard was set after, you know, where I want it to be. But of course that show was... Terrible. And was very backward looking because it's about all the old guys going like, okay, one more, you know, like Jonathan Frakes getting on the treadmill. So he can kind of be like, okay, let's put some green black back in the gray beard, whatever. It was pretty rough. And then the wonderful animated show was so good. And it was canon and it made an effort to be, but like it was obviously, you know. Silly.

16:53David Sims:But I've heard that Star Trek is now a priority. And the new Sky Downs Paramount. The Lizard King, David Ellison, will be creating a new Star Trek. Yeah, they're just going to wipe the slate clean. I think with, you know, I can't predict what the hell they're going to do. But everything David just said was correct, which is a rarity, by the way. Everything he said. And two Star Trek fans agreeing about

17:15Griffin Newman:the direction of the show also unusual. this new show they've been wanting to do a Starfleet Academy since the 90s you know and it's a great idea. Chad was always pushing for it really hard right? Didn't he write those books about it? No that was something he wrote other books. He wrote Tech War. He wrote some Star Trek books. With Judith and Garfield Reeves Stevens were the actual authors. Didn't he write books that were Kirk and Spock meeting for the first time? He wrote books where he dies in Star Trek generations and then he comes back.

17:47David Sims:I remember that when the JJ movie came out, Shatner kept saying, this was my idea and I kept pitching it to Paramount. And I wanted to direct it. Shatner saying stuff is... I wanted to direct prequel young Spock and Kirk. It's possible that there is a new... I never read his books. It's crazy

18:07Griffin Newman:how they might end up making another new Star Trek movie that William Shatner will still be alive and not involved with. Where he'll be like, I'm ready for my cameo. They'll be like, oh, we're going through a tunnel. Anyway, the Starfleet Academy thing is upsetting because they're going in with one arm. Because it looks cool. They're going in with one arm tie behind their back, though, because they're connecting it to Discovery, which they should. It's an original sin. They just shouldn't be doing it. But Paul Giamatti plays a new alien race that we've never seen. Good. Holly Hunter is the head.

18:38She's the headmistress. She's the, you know. Great. The Dumbledore, if you will. and others. And then a bunch of hot young kids running around. Yeah, which is like, that's fine. Yeah, it's going to be great.

18:50Griffin Newman:School stinks. That is always because like, Ben raises some interesting points here. For like 40, 50 years, people have been like, when do we do our Starfleet Academy show? And I do feel like it's always bumped up against like, doesn't school stink? Like, yeah. You know, they have to be at a school. They can't like go on adventures. But this is space school. They're going to like, they're going to like go with like, you know, they're going to do space realm and algebra. We could do space algebra.

19:14David Sims:But it is telling that I feel like this. Facebook reports. The first JJ movie got through Starfleet Academy really fast. But I mean, it has three very fun scenes. And it's like, that's all we need to do. No, they're trying to make this like Riverdale. They're going to be all schdupping each other. Space schdupping. They're going to schdup? Space schdup. It's going to be great. In zero gravity. Could you imagine?

19:30Griffin Newman:Maybe a space wedgie? That could be fun. A hot corn fuzz? Space swirly? Yeah. I just want another show about a, you know, ship that goes on missions. Well, I think, God bless Strange New Worlds, you know. So listen. it's you know it's doomed they're wrapping it up no they have this season and the next season but you know Dianu I mean we got a lot of didn't Sector 31 put some new kind of blood in the veins absolutely didn't that get people rearing for more what is the worst thing in Star the worst thing the worst show movie what is the worst Star Wars thing you can't ask me

20:02David Sims:I'm a bit of a neophyte in this area in Star Wars oh in Star Wars

20:07Griffin Newman:he's trying to say that Sector 31 might be a single what is the worst

20:11David Sims:element of Star Wars it's a good question I mean, I've largely tapped out of the last couple of years.

20:15Griffin Newman:I still think the worst thing is episode nine, which you liked, of course. And we were raving. Episode nine. We were walking out of that screening and you were like, it had spaceships in it. Episode nine is better than episode two. Sure. No, it's not. Well, no, wait a second. No, I fundamentally disagree with episode two. What's wrong with episode nine? They run around. They go with like quicksand Chewbacca shows up. You know what? All of those things do happen. You know what I like? If you like those things, by the way,

20:46David Sims:I can point to some other movies you might really like. People mock this. I got a couple movies with Sand and Chewbacca that I strongly recommend. There's a moment that were great. There's a moment in the ninth Star Wars when the stormtrooper flies and they fly now. And that's become a meme is like bad. When the stormtrooper flew, I was like, holy shit, that's a flying stormtrooper. This is cool. I was in the moment. I thought it was great. I'm moderately surprised that you're not the first episode this much of a nine defender I mean I think it's fine I've watched it one time but I am extraordinarily surprised you're not an episode two defender episode two is full of fucking Hoffman coded shit well there's

21:26Griffin Newman:which like well there's the it's got the diner with the the diner could be a 50 space diner he's in his own

21:32David Sims:noir movie investigating a rain planet with a clone I like that you know maybe I meant to say episode three that's fine that one's very boring number two was fun and also timothy timothy uh natalie portman she's wearing i'm sorry timothy went to natalie portman kind of similar you know timothy portman they have a similar vibe no at first she's wearing an outfit and then the outfit gets ripped in half that is two for the first time in the arena battle how is that not hoffman shit no that's good i meant to say episode three the third the third prequel i've never i fall asleep every time it's very boring the whole

22:09Griffin Newman:thing with you, right, is that Star Wars, as much as you're a nerd who likes space, it was never your primary thing. Listen, I remember the first time I ever saw the first Star Wars. It was thrilling. I loved Star Wars. Chewbacca, Sand, Yubnub. Yubnub. Yubnub, of course, obviously, I connected with... Yubnub's not in the first one. I know. I just remember that Jordan and I both like Yubnub. I love Yubnub. And I love all the jizz. I love all the jizz music. I love Yubnub's palace song. You've never wailed, though, right? You just appreciate it? No. I was not a jizz whaler. Not a jizz whaler, but I just enjoyed a nice shot of jizz.

22:46David Sims:And I... I just enjoyed a nice shot of jizz at night before bed. You pour yourself three fingers of whiskey in a shot of jizz. Yeah, it's very healthy. But the... David's doing the motion, which by the way, I'm not realizing, it does kind of look like something else. Yeah. I think though that the Jabba's Palace scene of the third Star Wars movie is just... When I saw that one, It's outrageously good shit. It's so good. So I love it. I have long attended. That is my favorite thing in all of Star Wars. Is Jabba. The Jabba Palace sequence, the first 20, 30 minutes of Return of the Jedi, I would live in that.

23:21David Sims:That is my favorite shit in the universe. I wouldn't want to live there. It's so horrifying. I want to live in the experience of watching it. Come on, let's go there. I don't want to rent a room in the back. You do. It's terrible. The dancing girl goes and gets eaten by the monster in the basement.

23:36Griffin Newman:Also hardworking entertainer. He eats a living frog and all that. He's always eaten a living frog. Salacious beef crumb. Now, Salacious Crumb is a truth teller. He pushes boundaries. Sometimes he misses.

23:45David Sims:Did you see him on Kill Tony recently?

23:47Griffin Newman:There's just so many, like, dumb comedy podcasting jokes you could make about Salacious Crumb. Like, most Austin-based comedy podcasters basically are Salacious Crumb.

23:59David Sims:Did you see Salacious Crumb went on Breakfast Club and talked about why he doesn't eat pussy? I'm just going to keep making jokes of Salacious Crumb doing other podcasts. He is salacious.

24:08Griffin Newman:Billy Bob Thornton. Billy Bob Thornton.

24:10David Sims:The 96 Billy Bob Thornton.

24:12Griffin Newman:In Sling Blade he does wins for Sling Blade in 96 and so he starts to show up and stuff.

24:16David Sims:And by the way he's got like you got fucking popping in Tombstone you have one false move which he obviously wrote. Like I said he's been around. You have a decent proposal he does the Sling Blade short film but then Dead Man but then obviously yes 96 is when we're I'm doing this.

24:28Griffin Newman:Do this. 97 he's got stuff that he clearly made pre-Oscar. He's in The Apostle he's good he's in U-Turn I love The Apostle. That's what I'm saying That's a great movie

24:37David Sims:98 you're right It's the first time

24:38Griffin Newman:He's booking With the Oscar in hand Simple plan Which he gets Another nomination for He's wonderful Armageddon Where he's German of course Down in the space base Telling everyone Where to point their drills Right And he was nominated For four Oscars For that He was nominated

24:53David Sims:In all four actor categories

24:55Griffin Newman:He's fucking good In that movie He's in the Stephen Gyllenhaal film Homegrown Is that a movie That you love I could see that being Oh no No A Hoffman I don't think Jordan's seen it It's such a forgotten movie. I forgot it. And he's fantastic, of course, as the James Carville of primary colors. Yes, that's good, too. 99, of course, one of the most forgotten movies ever made. Air traffic controller, sex comedy, Pushing Tin with Thornton, Cusack, Blanchett, Jolie. Like, just the most insane cast.

25:26David Sims:It was a sex comedy movie that turned into a sex comedy playing out in our tabloids as he started Pushing Tin with fucking Jolie. Who directed it?

25:35Griffin Newman:Mike Newell directed it. I think it was his follow-up to Donnie Brasco. Yeah. Weird movie. I saw that in the theaters. Pushington, it's not good. I saw it in the theaters and thought it was okay. It's just one of those things where everyone was like, everyone wants to learn the lives. And it's like, no, no one actually cares. It's the only movie that the Charles brothers made, right?

25:53David Sims:Who did Cheers and Taxi.

25:55Griffin Newman:They wrote it, yes. Glenn and Les Charles, right. And Mike Newell directed it? Yeah. Oh, that's kind of dark. Because didn't one of them die in 9-11? I thought it was the other Frasier guy who died. I think so. Okay. Wasn't it David Angel who died? That sounds correct. Yeah, they're both still alive. It's about near plane crashes. Well, that's true, but neither of them died. Okay. I will just point this out.

26:16David Sims:But just another thing that, you know, any of our younger listeners might not understand that's important context for this movie. For the first couple years of the 2000s, the world was obsessed with Billy Bob Thornton's sex life.

26:28Griffin Newman:That is true.

26:29David Sims:I thought you were going to say 9-11 because I actually do have some 9-11 connections.

26:32Griffin Newman:He's promoting 98. He gave good performances in movies. 99, less so, but he does at least become famous boyfriend to Angelina Jolie. Right. And there's like two years of them showing up on red carpet

26:44David Sims:saying weird shit and being like, we can't stop fucking. Didn't they keep each other's blood in a vial around their neck? Just a drop. Would you keep Angelina Jolie's blood in a vial around your neck?

26:53Griffin Newman:I would do whatever 1999 Angelina Jolie told me to do. Salacious Crump goes, 2000 of he wrote the gift and of course all the pretty horses kind of blows up in his face with Scarlett Johansson no she's not

27:11David Sims:no that's a horse whisperer

27:13Griffin Newman:oh I got my horses confused

27:14David Sims:sorry

27:14Griffin Newman:so that's a bit of a rocky year but in 2001 this year he's fantastic in Monsters Ball he's fantastic in this film he's fantastic as Griffin has noted many times in Barry Levinson's Bandits one must acknowledge he does also write and direct the film Daddy and Them which I've never seen which he's also the star of. Jim Varney's last film. Texas comedy? Yeah. And then it's like 2002 he didn't really do anything waking up in Reno. Yeah. But 2003 he had Bad Santa. Oh yeah. That movie's great. Right. Which is another one of those things where he's like fuck he's making this work. Right? You know like and it was a hit.

27:51Griffin Newman:And suddenly you were like is this guy like mainstream comedy star? Yeah and can he kind of do whatever he wants even though he looks right like he looks and he talks like that.

28:00David Sims:You're like Bad Santa love actually and tolerable cruelty, right? And tolerable cruelty love actually are both kind of extended cameos.

28:06Griffin Newman:Right, but he kind of pops in both cameos. He's very funny in both.

28:08David Sims:And you're like, has he unlocked a new chamber? Is there a new era? And then like Friday Night Lights is like... He's fantastic in Friday Night Lights. Agreed. And then this is where it starts to go away. But everyone always says that he is the one good part of that.

28:22Griffin Newman:Play Davy Crockett in the Alamo. And he plays him as a coward. And then 2005, he had Ice Harvest, a movie you stick up for. I stick up for really hard. The Harold Ramis movie. Harold Ramis, Robert Benton's remake. And this is where it starts to just go away.

28:37David Sims:Well, because... There was just a few years there where it was like, what can't this guy do? But that run of just being like, we got to replicate the bad Santa magic. People love Billy Bob Thornton being an asshole. I just remember him as a little bit coarse when he's like, she ain't gonna shit ride for a week. That's the best. I mean, it's just a little bit of a shocking joke. But it's a bad news bear school for scoundrels, Mr. Woodcock.

29:00Griffin Newman:Oh, yeah.

29:01David Sims:This is where... This is around the time

29:03Griffin Newman:when he starts the Boxmasters. Let's not forget. Yes. The Boxmasters was his group that was... Which caused the fuss in Canada. Right. They've released 17 albums. I know. I was going to share that. Isn't that fucking crazy? Well, did he have like... 17? In that interview,

29:23David Sims:that's part of his thing is like, we released four albums this year. Why are we talking about my movie work?

29:28Griffin Newman:He should have said like, well, maybe stop releasing so many albums per year. Just to explain. We've talked about it on this show.

29:36David Sims:If not talking about it here, then when? We already did. Primo Levi over here. You can't assume that everyone's listened to every episode. Are you just doing the bit where now you guys are replicating the interview? Probably. The interview is great because the guy, I can't say his name, Gian... Gian Gomasi. Him. He stands up for himself so well. He's like, look... Can I explain this quickly before you say this?

29:58Griffin Newman:Yeah, yeah, yeah. I really am putting a one-minute time limit on this.

30:02David Sims:Okay, do it.

30:02Griffin Newman:I really am.

30:03David Sims:Billy Bob Thorne went on with his band, and in the introduction, Gian Gomeschi goes like, Boxmasters have done this in 14 albums in the last two years. Da-da-da-da-da. Wasn't it a Canadian show? Keep going, keep going, keep going. That doesn't count. And then he's like, and you might recognize their bassist for his film work, Billy Bob Thorne. And then he starts exclusively asking questions about the album and the music. And the other bandmates respond. And Billy Bob Thorne, every time, says like, when I was a kid, I liked to paint models of monsters. And he's like, oh, okay. Then he'll circle around and ask another question.

30:46David Sims:I'll be like, so tell me about the writing on this album. And he's like, sometimes I would go boxcar racing. And then like 40 minutes in, he's like, what's going on here? Yeah, so finally Gianna's like... And he said, well, apparently you're treating my music like it's a hobby, so why shouldn't I fucking talk about my other hobbies? And he's like, what did I do to anger you? And he says, you were explicitly told not to talk about my acting work. And he was like, I think it's relevant in the context of an introduction. I have no questions planned. Yeah. And Billy Bob Thornton just had flipped out on me.

31:16David Sims:He's such a dick. And the other guys in the band were embarrassed. He used to read Famous Monsters of Film Land. Yeah, he's talking about Famous Monsters. And you can watch the video of the other guys in the band going like, why are we with this asshole? Oh yeah, because he's famous. Because by the way, nobody on planet Earth would ever listen to a damn thing this guy recorded. Which Gene Gomeshi basically says, but he's just like, would you ask Tom Petty if he takes music seriously? But no, that's the best part. That's the best part. Because if Tom Petty wrote or directed a movie, you'd for sure ask him about Damn the Torpedoes.

31:43And by the way, the Santa sketch from

31:44David Sims:I Think You Should Leave is a direct parody of that. I know that.

31:47Griffin Newman:I love how you said that. Like, it's like, oh, of course, I think you should leave, which is very relevant to the man who wasn't there. Yes. No, the reason I hate talking about this is that Gian Gomeshi sucks. And Billy Bob Thornton wins. And so it's like, he wins. In the long run. Fuck that guy, Gian Gomeshi, who sucks. On the record. David, how dare you not let me out in.

32:06David Sims:Lay the table for this for you to make this point. I just alley-ooped you. I hate that guy. I'm sure I've allowed you to make this point now.

32:13Griffin Newman:And we have now twice, if not more on this podcast, been like, he really got fucked over by Billy Bob Thornton. And I'm like, good. He should get fucked over again by him. now I'd pay 30 bucks to watch it okay like not 50 like on a POV like a PPV like Billy Bob Thornton is rude and kind of gnarly in a microphone what if Gene Gomeschie

32:35David Sims:starts an OnlyFans no artistically respectable people no cut him down to size no I will not contribute money to him I think now it's true we've talked about this enough because you know what you know what's great great what's great the man who wasn't there.

32:56David Sims:David? Yes? I've had some bad meals in my life. I can imagine. Do you know about Huel? I know about Huel. Okay. Beloved sponsor of this show.

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33:35David Sims:I like the RTDs. I got the chocolate peanut butter. I keep those in the fridge. You know, we often record in the morning. I don't remember to eat breakfast. I'm watching the movie, and then I'm heading out the door. I didn't eat anything. I just grab one of those. I chug it down. I feel great. I'm ready to do bits. Right.

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34:48Griffin Newman:in 2001 the Coen brothers released their ninth film The Man Who Wasn't There which is of course the 18th film in the Marvel Cinematic Universe

34:57David Sims:but is the man who wasn't there ever going to reappear or is he just sitting on the bench with fucking Star Fox and Cleo Avengers Assemble

35:08Griffin Newman:could put some hair in the dirt when the Coen brothers are making the Hudsucker Proxy this is the whole thing with the Coen brothers is anytime they make a new movie, everyone's like, oh, what'd you think of it? They always have their story.

35:18David Sims:And this one has one of the biggest stories. There was an old timey 50s barbershop poster with all the model kids. They said 1940s style haircuts.

35:27Griffin Newman:Yes. And they said, we started to think about the guy who did all these haircuts and we wrote this character of a barber and it all came out of these pictures of haircuts.

35:36David Sims:This movie feels like a bit that then starts being taken seriously. It's a little bit their thing sometimes. But it feels like an improv run of like, who's the funniest guy to be doing these haircuts? And you're like, what if it's like a Billy Bob Thornton type who talks as if he's in a noir? Right, right. Right? The stoic cigarette smoking sociopath. And really like Albert Camus character, but just like in the 50s. But you know, the working title of this movie was The Barber, which is cool if you know it and watch it again, because they say The Barber like 25 times in this movie.

36:12Griffin Newman:Is that a better title? I do like the title and I do think it's appropriate. Like, it makes sense for the movie. I think The Barber might have been... I think The Barber's kind of a cool title. I think Man Who Wasn't There is a better title for this movie. The Barber sounds like a movie now that stars a 50-something comedian who is doing kung fu. You know what I mean? Like, a Bob Odenkirk decided to do an action movie. So, like, he was just a barber and then he does, like, barber.

36:34David Sims:No, but you and I both know if that movie was made tomorrow, it wouldn't star Bob Odenkirk. It starred John Cena. And the premise would be, this guy is an everyday barber. Can you believe he secretly has fighting skills?

36:46Griffin Newman:John Cena, who I think can be very funny, but like his arms are like this because his pecs are so mad.

36:53David Sims:If more of these were Odenkirk's, we'd be fine. I know. You know? My problem is these movies where you're just like... Mark Wahlberg's going to play a guy.

37:02Griffin Newman:I'm like, let me guess he's a sleeper agent.

37:04David Sims:No, no, no. He's a suburban guy. He has a kid. You will not believe that this guy can hold a gun. Did you see the union where he was a union delegate? Is that Mark Wahlberg? Yeah.

37:14Griffin Newman:I did not see that one. It's terrible. It's him and Halle Berry? Yeah. Yeah, it's awful. But he, again, he becomes, he saves the day. He has made five of these where it's either,

37:24David Sims:can you believe this guy used to be? But it's a bunch of streamers. It's a lot of union jokes. Or this guy's mistaken for. Yeah. Yes. Now, when you say a lot of union jokes, which kind of union are we talking about? Labor unions. Like, it's all about, they go to Europe and it's like, ah, the Plumbers Guild will help us with this. and then all these plumbers come out with these pipes. And all of them are played by Herve Village.

37:42Griffin Newman:So, Postalbowski. The Plumber. The Coens basically have two scripts ready. They've got the barber, they've got O Brother. George Clooney apparently becomes available, so they're like, great, let's do O Brother. But they go right from that to Man Who Wasn't There. And it may shock you guys to learn that the sort of pulp novels of the 1940s were a big influence on this film. But visually...

38:05David Sims:James M. Cain, etc. A thing I love about this movie is that they're like, no, visually what we were studying were like low budget B sci-fi films. Yes, that's true. That's absolutely right. And because it's black and white and shadowy, a lot of people were like, oh, they're just doing like noir riff and they're like, no, no, there's like a major difference here. There are a lot of gray tones in this. They're not doing the sort of like inky black, dark shadow thing. And it's their only black and white movies. Yes. And how many, Roger Deakins shot it, of course. How many black and white movies has Roger Deakins done?

38:34That's a good question.

38:35Griffin Newman:I wonder. Not many. I mean, this was where I said, I feel like it was a true novelty when this film came out. Like black and white movies had really, you know, gone out of style. I guess Soderbergh had made one. That's later. No, the good German. No, I'm just saying. That was after. It was around the same time. I knew it was, but like, was Kafka black and white? Yeah, isn't Kafka black and white?

38:53David Sims:Was a cut of it black and white? It's half color, half black. But that was a decade earlier. That's what I'm saying. Right. Edwards 95 and that was largely blamed for why the movie like just bottomed out at the mom's office. Which is the same for this one. But obviously very... Well, I disagree. I think the reason, and I wanted to bring this up. I remember when this came out, and it is a downer of the film, even though I think it's really very good. It's depressing. This movie came out like five, six weeks after 9-11. Yeah. And I remember talking to people, like my cinephile friends at the time, and everybody was like, I can't, like, I didn't want to see it so depressing.

39:31No one was in the mood. You're not wrong. I think if it came out a year before, would have been more of a substantial hit. Don't you think? No. No? Not at all? There's no way this movie's ever a hit. Well, not a hit, but it would have been like nobody saw it. Thanos.

39:45Griffin Newman:This wins Best Director at Con? It did. It tied with David Lynch from Mulholland Drive. They both split the Best Director prize between Joel Cohen and David Lynch. But Con was before 9-11.

39:54David Sims:But so they were, right, they were giving it to Mulholland late and Man Who Wasn't There early. Is that right? No, it's the same year, 2001. I always get confused about for some reason thinking Mulholland's fucking 2000. It's not.

40:05Griffin Newman:Yeah. No, Liv Ullman gave the Palme d 'Or, of course, to Nanny Moretti's The Sun's Room over, which is an okay movie. I do like that movie. Over Mulholland Drive, Man Who Wasn't There, fucking Moulin Rouge, The Piano Teacher, the Haneke movie. And Shrek was in competition. He was in competition where he belongs and where he shall remain. Do you think Shrek 5

40:29David Sims:will be in competition again?

40:30Griffin Newman:I hope so.

40:31David Sims:If they have any respect. Send your letters. They should do it. No, but I think you are right, Jordan, that there's no version of this movie that's like a fucking slam dunk. But I think there's something to not just like Cohen credibility, right? But there's something to that movie playing a can before 9-11. than the response that got in the release afterwards versus Mulholland being a movie that weirdly, in its sort of tapping into a deep existential sadness, felt more welcoming to the public post-9-11.

41:05Griffin Newman:Also, we're going to look at the box office game for 2001. It's so fascinating to see how, unfortunately, Hollywood could not meet the mood of the country because the stuff that they're offering definitely is not like, have you recently experienced a national tragedy? Would you like to see a film? We're going to talk about like,

41:23David Sims:it's a lot of weird, dark shit. In 99 and 2000, you had a lot of very serious movies that did well at the box office. That's what I'm saying. Like you're seeing like a... They're following that trend. Yeah. So, okay. All right. It's the thing that everyone talks about of just like Lord of the Rings was the movie that met the moment and people were like, thank God this thing got made. Yes. We needed this now. So, obviously James M.

41:45Griffin Newman:Cain is the biggest inspiration. other but the Kane is the big one because Kane is always about like a guy makes a bad decision and he just like shit gets worse right like it's always the narrative is always like Postman always rings twice and that kind of yeah now Mildred Pierce is the most famous James and Kane novel in a way and of course there is a Michael Curtis 1945 film that is well regarded but the Coens don't like it and they initially were like should we do Mildred Pierce should we like get the rights I never knew that because they're kind of fascinated by Glendale which is where Wilder Pierce is set and they're like can we really like do like the Glendale saga because the movie doesn't bother to get into any of that of course Todd Haynes eventually made his miniseries version of it but instead they were like now let's write a weird thing about a barber and Shadow of a Doubt the Hitchcock film obviously another big influence they say I'm not seeing another Deacon's Black and White film by the way no I wasn't either I took a I mean I don't know some of those early ones but I doubt they were I do always forget that he did shoot the siege and the company men.

42:48Griffin Newman:There are some bad ones, but mostly good. And Buster Scruggs, the final chapter is not in black and white, but it's close, right? They really play with the... It's desaturated. Desaturated, but it's not black and white. Yeah. But as Griffin said, Cold War... But he doesn't shoot Buster Scruggs. Huh? He doesn't shoot Buster Scruggs. That wasn't Deacon's? No. My God. Cold War sci-fi Yeah. is another influence, especially visually, but like the sort of like... Bruce Lepinel.

43:19David Sims:Yeah, who's a great guy. He shot Llewyn Davis too. You said, yeah, as if it was obvious, even though you didn't provide that answer. I was getting to the audience. Well, I don't know.

43:26Griffin Newman:I'm looking at the dossier about this. I'm not fucking looking at that. We're taking multiple conversations at once. Jesus. Sci-fi, saucers, pod people, atom bomb anxiety, all that stuff, right? You know, like, right? That's... You're right. Absolutely. The film I unfortunately thought about a lot when I saw this film in theaters when I was 15 years old was Pleasantville because it feels like it's set in Pleasantville. Like, and it's got the black and white and everyone is kind of initially just sort of like a little, you know, stiff character before. And the music in Pleasantville is, is of course, Randy Newman.

43:59The great Randy. And this music has Beethoven and they're about equal in quality. Yeah.

44:05Griffin Newman:Remember when you finally engineered the critic circle giving Randy Newman a special award and he like hurt his hip and he couldn't. He couldn't make it. What year was that? It was like two or three years ago. It was like a lifetime achievement. It was the year of marriage story. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I had been campaigning to get him a lifetime achievement award. Because the New York Film Critics Circle does not give music awards. And it took me a couple years to get that Sisyphean thing up the hill. It fell on deaf ears a couple times. And then finally, we gave him the award and he had hip surgery and couldn't come from hell.

44:37David Sims:Who accepted on his behalf? I did. Mike Wazowski? Me. Because it happened. He thought he was going to come at the last minute. couldn't come and our chair it was was our our chair um but ironically in the photos he's blocked out you can't see the chair when it was al alison wilmore who we love of course and she um had so much else going on right there was a lot of chaos that year was it happened to be the best year it was that was the irishman year right there was so much going on and she the last one was like randy newman's not coming you're going to talk on his behalf he's going to send you his people are going to send you a speech and you're going to read on his behalf and i'm like i am when this It was kind of like, Jordan, you asked for this.

45:13It was great, though. But you know, it's a funny story because I get up there.

45:17David Sims:You also must play his great American songbook. That's right. I get that. Well, let me tell you, Stuart. So I get up there, and it's the, you know, it happened to be a big year.

45:26Griffin Newman:It is like Marty, De Niro, and Pesci sitting right in front of you. I go up on the stage, and I go up there, and I start doing Hoffman's shtick, and I kill. Good. I make a couple of good jokes. Can I tell? Can I repeat one of the jokes? wait Salacious Grum? I thought it was Quentin was there Quentin Tarantino was also there Brad Pitt was there and so I was like hey it's a great night

45:50David Sims:I hear Tarantino's a big fan of Salacious Grum podcast by the way I said it's a great night for movies it's a great night for New York we're all here and I said listen I know we're a little nervous because the film critics are here with the stars and you're worrying can any maybe we meet one of these people can we make an introduction so I said don't worry. Hey, Brad Pitt, don't worry. If you want to meet Eric Cohen, I know him and I can make an introduction. Eric Cohen, for those listening, he's a film critic and whatever. Executive at a... He works for Henry Curry. He's a great guy. But I picked Eric Cohen because Cohen is a funny name.

46:23It's got a K. So everybody laughed. Everybody laughed at my joke. Brad Pitt laughed at my joke. But I looked down front, dead center, three feet away from me. Spike Lee, Martin Scorsese, Robert De Niro, stone-faced. as if they could not wait to strangle me because I was wasting their time. De Niro unsurprising. De Niro unsurprising.

46:46Griffin Newman:Yeah, De Niro doesn't strike me as a big lapper. Scorsese and Lee love to laugh. I don't understand that.

46:51David Sims:I was so depressed. They're yuckers. I've seen the Fran Leibovitz documentary. All it is is Marty laughing all day. He's laughing like crazy.

47:00Griffin Newman:You're a cousin to Fran Leibovitz. She and I are best friends. So I got to admit, When I looked down and I saw Marty and Spike dead, I was a little bit upset. It's upsetting. Sorry. But I moved on. I moved on. I persevered, nevertheless. Maybe Spike had just said, like, I don't like Kundun. And Marty had been like, well, I don't like how, you know, fucking, you know, he got game. I don't know. Anywho, the point I'm making is this. Those came out the same year. The man who wasn't. So we were talking about the man who wasn't there, right? What's the point? Or until I continue. Yeah, the music in Pleasantville.

47:34Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. is Randy Newman style classical. The music in The Man Who Wasn't There is not film noir brass. It's all Beethoven. It's Beethoven.

47:43David Sims:Just you couldn't figure out why Spike Lee didn't like your stick. David, you're British, right? You're British. Yeah. Was it? Not as comfy to you. Very good.

47:53Griffin Newman:That is one of pretty good. It's one of those things where you're like, he's clearly had it in his, you know, he's ready to go with it. It's not like he's coming up with it off the top of his head, but it's so wonderful. but he's like little impish Mr. He's dressed like Mr. Mixx-Pitlick. He's like all in purple. He's very happy. You know, I just saw it, like literally last night, there's this new documentary called Mr. Scorsese. Right, which I'm very excited to watch. Which is by the time this airs, it'll be on Apple Plus. The whole Day-Lewis family is out there this year. He's the only... Making equally good films.

48:25Everybody in the whole universe calls Martin Scorsese Marty, of course, obviously. Yes. Except for Daniel Day-Lewis, calls him Martin. Never calls him Marty. but Spike Lee has a great moment almost as good as not my cup of tea he just goes thank God for asthma

48:41Griffin Newman:such a great quote it's a good because he would have been a priest otherwise okay a man who wasn't there they didn't write the protagonist with anyone in mind but of course they wrote Fran's part for Fran and they wrote Michael Badalucho's part for Michael Badalucho Fran Leibowitz no Fran McDormand

48:56David Sims:of course there is I could not find any substantiating of this but there there always been whispers that they had wanted Bill Murray to do this. I mean, that's a really cool idea. It's a cool idea. They would have beaten Lost in Translation to the punch. Yeah. I also... Obviously Rushmore's happened already, but like, yeah. The only reason I feel it is worth giving that rumor oxygen... Well, he was too busy

49:17Griffin Newman:talking to the other Ethan Coen writing who wrote Garfield or whatever, right?

49:21David Sims:Field. Yes. Well, I just want to tie this in. Bad Santa came because... What are they? Require and Farrar? Ficar and Require. Ficar and Require. Yeah. They were like obsessed with the Coen brothers. Sure. And we're like, can we write a movie for you? Right. And they said... To me, if you're obsessed with the Coen brothers, you should probably know that you can't. But anyway, whatever. That was their response. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they were like, we really, we like writing our own things. And they're like, is there anything we could do? And they're like, look, we've always thought it'd be funny to make a movie about a mall Santa who robs people, but we never actually had anything.

49:59Griffin Newman:It's so funny that they're like, here's our stupidest idea.

50:02David Sims:Do you like it? They were like, we never had an idea past that point. Right, right. If you guys want to run with that. We'll take 10 points. We'll do something. Right. Right? And they like brought it to them and they were like, this is good. We produced this. And that movie was designed to star Bill Murray. And Bill Murray famously would never commit to the contract. And it was like on the runway with Bill Murray for a long time. And Billy Bob Thornton slots in really late. But that movie's after this, right? Because of their working relationship on this, I have to think that they hooked. like he's can you imagine but like they're behind

50:35Griffin Newman:the camera right they're setting up a shot on man who wasn't there he's in his barber smock and then like Joel just like takes a little Santa hat and like starts holding it over the frame or whatever but I just think

50:45David Sims:both of those movies were designed to be Bill Murray vehicles it did feel like the Coens had some desire to do some Bill Murray sad sack thing I mean I love the Bill Murray sad sack obviously but I think it would it would have been too funny I think it would have been a tougher needle to thread because Bill Murray is inherently funny because he has a funny looking face.

51:03Griffin Newman:And beyond that, it's like, I sort of more assume Bill Murray's going to make wrong decisions and get in trouble than Thornton, where you're like, the whole movie, you're like, is this guy like a psycho? Is this guy like a damaged war veteran? Like, what's going on behind the eyes?

51:19David Sims:We're going to get to all this. But I do think also, like, Thornton has that, like, Humphrey Bogart thing where you're like, this guy is such an unconventional star, right? Everything about him is, like, odd and prickly. and yet he is just the most compelling guy on screen. Yeah, like the thing is in this movie, you're kind of like, why is this guy such a loser? Like he's a handsome dude. Like why doesn't, why isn't he?

51:42Griffin Newman:But he's not handsome in a, you know, whatever.

51:44David Sims:But this is the thing, right? I'm like in this movie, he is weirdly magnetic and attractive, but you're also like, Billy Bob Thorne can be the worst looking guy in movies, right? Like it's just, he's such an extreme visually in terms of his voice, in terms of his affectation. Like even if you're doing a subversion of the Bill Murray persona in 2001, want. You're playing with what is a persona that we've all gotten our hands around versus Billy Bob Thornton, despite being at the end of this like run that you're talking about where he was on fire. Still, no one could really classify what is the magic with this guy.

52:15David Sims:Not as evidence by him being this kind of like legit, austere, like writer and movie star who also is like doing vampiric sex with Angelina Jolie and then like fucking clocking into like, you know, fifth leads in blockbuster films and killing it and not seeming above the material, you're like, what is this guy's deal? And especially because the first movie most people saw him in was Sling Blade where he's, you know, not fully transformed. Fully transformed. Right. Now, I would imagine at some point we'll talk about how there is a wide interpretation of this movie that he's a closeted gay man.

52:46Griffin Newman:We'll talk about all that in a while. I'm going to finish the dossier. Thornton and the Coens had a mutual friend, a producer, I don't know, who apparently would throw Super Bowl parties and they met at a Super Bowl party. Insane to think about. Joel Cohn considers him one of Hollywood's true chameleons despite his reputation as like oh he's a southern guy he likes French reputators and but they had known him for a while they keep saying they keep stressing like he was in our orbit essentially and makes sense also

53:13David Sims:just from his his screenwriting days I mean similar with Tim Blake Nelson and you know

53:18Griffin Newman:yeah no that's you're right you're right absolutely and he makes like you know like one false move feels like a movie that Coen's would love or whatever um Ed Crane uh they're like He's a very passive character. He's mostly reactive. It's so hard for an actor to throw him a role like that. And we just thought Billy Bob would understand the stillness and saying very little and all that. And yes, he loved it. And apparently, while they were shooting it, he would hint at a smile and he'd be like, do much? Or he would cock an eye. He knew, like, I can barely do anything. Thornton's like, this guy and the guy in The Simple Plan are the closest to me.

53:58I agree.

53:59David Sims:I'm like, okay, Billy Bob, but okay, you know. There's also a lot of space between those two guys.

54:05Griffin Newman:There's a broad spectrum, but I kind of get what he's saying. He seems like an odd interview, so maybe he just kind of says stuff.

54:11David Sims:He's also infamously like one of the most neurotic men in Hollywood, beyond being like prickly, right? And being very hair-triggered. There are all these things about Billy Bob Thornton where he's like terrified of water. He has like a well-established phobia of antiques. Wait, doesn't he not fly? He also has a crazy OCD

54:29Griffin Newman:that's like very, as he puts it, geometrical. And there was an incident on set where he had to like drive around the set a certain number of times before he went to the coffee bean. And he's like, fortunately, the Coens were like completely amused by this.

54:41David Sims:Not annoyed. It's like one of these things where like, you know, you read it online and you're like, that's not true. And you look for the interview where he dispels it and he'll go on some fucking morning drive time show and they'll be like, no, I read somewhere that you have a phobia of antiques? And he's like, yes, I do. I don't like being surrounded by old things.

54:58Griffin Newman:You know what, Billy?

54:59David Sims:He's like, I get hives. It freaks me out. I kind of get it. I think they're bad spirits on those things. Wow. You know? Like, I know there was a whole to-do, like, there's a big... Like, they take a blindfold off from on somebody and like, antiques are already like, no! Grandfather clock. It's like one of those things he's like very severe about, right? Like, he's not like, yeah, I know, it's kind of embarrassing. His WTF is fascinating because Marin's kind of like like, going through his reputation with him. Wow. And, like, his sense of defensiveness, you know, and, like, all of this sort of stuff.

55:30David Sims:And he basically just keeps being like, I'm like an ugly, dorky kid. I don't want all this attention. Why are people talking about me? Don't be in the movies. Exactly. He has that inner conflict, I think, with him. What is your illogical fear? In life? Yeah, like, what freaks you out that shouldn't? What's your grandfather clock to Billy Bob Thornton? Eggs. Yeah. Much discussed on this podcast. I have a similar revulsion to being in a room with an egg. Any style? Obviously. Yeah, once it's cracked. Okay. What about you, David Sims?

56:03Griffin Newman:Oh, I don't know. Obviously, not finishing the dossier is my big fear. Obviously, this is their first collaboration with Francis McDormand.

56:10David Sims:I'll give you the list after the episode.

56:11Griffin Newman:Yeah, sure. Fine. Francis McDormand since Fargo. Yeah, which is well. And she's very much like, I am here to play like an image. She's like, I'm not an important character. Although I do think she's very good. She's great. She's decent.

56:23David Sims:she has more to do in this than I remembered

56:26Griffin Newman:yeah I mean because she's in a lot of like you know Gandolfini this is like that sort of early Sopranos has just hit phase and he's still doing the voice he's he's he's closer to Tony than I remember he's doing a little baby mouth right and well he eats during a scene and anytime Gandolfini eats I just think it turns like but my memory of this film

56:47David Sims:is so much that like you know the entertainment weekly previews and everything you know the long lead previews before 9-11 and everything. The hype on this movie was like Gandolfini, this is his first big movie move since Sopranos. In a Coen's film, this feels like a perfect tee-up to a supporting actor nom. And here's Frances McDormand. She hasn't worked with him since Fargo when she won Best Actress. Perfect tee-up to a supporting actress nom. And then the movie comes out and people are like, oh, they really don't have that much. No, they're both good.

57:17Griffin Newman:Shalhoub is amazing. Shalhoub is incredible. And I remember him having brief sort of like critics kind of buzz. They tried to pivot. He got an AFI nomination

57:25David Sims:the only year that the AFI did a televised award with multiple categories. He rocks. But yes, I think they tried too late to get a kind of critics group. He's doing his character from Barton Fink just times 10. It's the same. It's great. It's so slick and he is slowed down. You know, it's less stylized. Sometimes you need

57:44Griffin Newman:a little loop. Thank you for that. Producer Ben, thank you very much

57:49David Sims:for adding something. It's been too long so we added a new term to the glossary. This is a film that decides to lube it up. Yeah, they do. They are lubing it up. Is that,

57:58Griffin Newman:is this the last Shalhoub Coen's? Because he's in Barton Fink, obviously.

58:04David Sims:Our friend who runs the Blank Check meta account, I asked him to do a full tally of Coen Brothers repeated appearances. I was going to save it for the Scruggs episode. Okay. But I have the full data. We don't need no Scruggs.

58:24Griffin Newman:But did Shalhoub ever... Wait, no, what was the point? He never did. I interrupted your... He never did. This is his last. Oh, this is his last?

58:32David Sims:Oh.

58:32Griffin Newman:Yeah. Too bad. So this film, of course, was shot in color and then, you know, they turned it into black and white.

58:40David Sims:Basically, both because at this point in time, the resources were so limited for shooting and processing. that they just basically always advise you to shoot in color and adjust it later and obviously this is Post-O-Brother where like Deakins has kind of started to break down all the doors of Post-Futzing.

58:58Griffin Newman:There's also the classic you hear this and for this it is true of like we need a color version to sell to European markets.

59:05David Sims:It is always this thing that European markets are like we will not. The film was cheap though. Which is weird. They're supposed to be so intellectual over there. It's so bizarre and like Ed Wood I think is one of the rare like post-90 examples. I think Dead Man as well black and white or shove it actually shot in black and white there's nothing you can fucking do with this but like Nebraska is one that was shot in color and they aired the color version European TV and then Epix made a big deal of like we have the color version and Alexander Payne basically sent a cease and desist oh that's so funny there's a similar thing where the Coen brothers are like not only do we not approve of man who wasn't there in color but it like looks bad there's shit in it we did

59:43Griffin Newman:that doesn't work right it's not designed to be yeah all those scenes in the jail with the shaft of light and whatnot. That's got to be in black. But Deakins also says, I've fucked around with like, you know, existing black and white stocks and I felt they were too like grainy, too documentary feeling. Like they felt like ghost movies is one way he puts it where he's like, when I'm shooting in color, I can adjust the light to give it like more of a noir feel, less of one depending on the scene. I mean, Deakins has been working with the Coens for years at this point. Deakins is like a obviously celebrated DP and he had done Condune for Marty Scorsese Martin himself but like I remember this was the year where everyone was like in my silly little cinephile world like he absolutely needs the Oscar for this and of course the movie lost to Lord of the Rings for cinematography which of course is a gorgeous movie sure and the camera's flying all over and like all kinds of cool shit is happening but I remember it being that you were like Deacon's cleaned up the Critics Awards and like all that,

1:00:46David Sims:you know. And I think almost most telling, like he gets the nomination even though this movie completely blanks otherwise and it is the start of the bit of that run of just like, even if the movie doesn't hit with us, Deakins is basically getting auto-nominated. Sure, sure. Not even out of respect but because like every year his work is so undeniable It's so recognizable. that even if we bounced on the film, we have to pay respect. Did assassination of Jesse James, did that get him a nomination? So we talk about this in a future episode but that year he is nominated against himself. So he loses the Oscar to Elswit for There Will Be Blood because he's nominated for both Jesse James and No Country.

1:01:24I see.

1:01:24David Sims:I think he would have won that year had it been one film or the other. Yes. He does not win until Blade Runner, which is crazy. Wow. I would never remember that that was what he won for. I knew that he did win, but I didn't know it was for that.

1:01:39Griffin Newman:And yes. So you've also, Beautiful Mind, as you mentioned, and you know, Lord of the Rings. It's a big, it's a crazy movie year. And this was a like, I would say, fairly warmly received small movie, like in a pretty kind of loud, noisy year. It was their, the stat I saw was it was their lowest grossing film since Odd Soccer. That makes sense. It didn't cost a ton, which is partly why they got to make it in black and white and all that. But it just felt like the reaction at the time was a little golf clappy. It was a little kind of like, Like, there's nothing. This is good. Handsome. Yeah. Interesting.

1:02:17Griffin Newman:But not like another masterpiece from the Coen brothers.

1:02:20David Sims:I was so recently Coen-pilled at this time as like a 12, 13-year-old, having just seen Oh Brother and that being like my activation moment. I'm starting to fill in the gaps. But so I was like so electrified by this at the time as a young 'un who's just like, you guys are telling me they've made better movies than this? If this is my entry point, you know? There is an aspect of this movie that plays in my head fairly regularly. It's a line from this film. And it's a little, I'm going to, I'm going to, because I'm a little older than you guys. So I'm going to talk a little bit honesty here. I was debating whether or not I bring this up, but I'm just going to go for it.

1:02:59And now's the time. You are not married. I am unmarried. I'm very unmarried. David Sims is not only married. He has so many children. I can't even count how many.

1:03:10David Sims:Sometimes I look across the room here and I feel like I'm tuning into Fox in the mid-90s because this guy's married with children. It's true. I've been married for a very long time, happily. Happily. Married for... I just wanted to say, I also recently got married. Hey, Mazel Tov. Yeah, but very recently. He doesn't have the years on you. Well, so a loving and caring relationship is something that I have and I'm proud to have it. But when you've been married for really long times, I've been with the same woman for a really long time. We met before this movie was in theaters, like by two weeks or so.

1:03:50But we met in July of 2001, just before 9-11 we met. And her name is Muhammad Adda. No, so the salacious loves that. So here's the thing. even when you're married to someone that you love and is still there. The line when Billy Bob says, my wife and I have not performed the sex act in some time. He does say that.

1:04:18Griffin Newman:To a coroner who's telling him his wife was pregnant FYI. It's not like he says that to a rando. Every now and then. The guy's like, okay. Maybe David can, but I don't know that he does because he has so many children. He clearly has the sex act all the time. That's the thing. he can't stop having the sex act. So, when you can marry for a, every now and then, in my life, I'll think to myself, gee, it's kind of been a little while. I mean, not that this is any, we still love each other, we still care for one another. But has it been some time since the sex act? But I might think to myself, gee, it's been a little bit of a stretch.

1:04:53And then do you start

1:04:54Griffin Newman:scanning the horizon for Gandalfini? What I immediately do, immediately, is I hear that line from this movie every single time. And it happens. and as one day maybe, Griffin, a woman will be wise enough to accept your hand in marriage.

1:05:08David Sims:If only I'm so lucky to go years without the sex act. I'm not saying years. Can I ask, why are we discussing this right now? Because our guest on this episode is Jordan Hoffman. What do you mean? Because the thing about this movie that has lived with me... Am I the only one who applauds for himself? No, no, no. It's probably. You're the best. The only part... The part of this movie that lives with me constantly, but not constantly, I don't want to make it sound like it's constantly that I'm not having the sex act. But the thing that I play in my head the most is when I realize that it's been a little while and that I have a conversation between myself and the conversation between me and Billy Bob Thornton.

1:05:48And he says, my wife and I have not performed the sex act. And then I say, oh Christ, all right, I better shave, you know, something's going on. I better do something. That's the big takeaway. Light a handle or something. I don't know what's going on. I'd put on the Barry White record. and then maybe I can break the spell. And that's what it is. And it's always that line from this movie.

1:06:06Griffin Newman:It's just so funny because it's not like you watch this movie and you're like, this movie is about like healthy sexual relations. I mean, but sure, the sex act. Yeah. Pros trust the Home Depot for heavy duty storage solutions for any job site or garage. Right now, get up to 15 % off select storage and organization. Impact and water resistant totes and shelving built to hold up to 2 ,500 pounds. Storage systems have space for all your tools and protect them in the garage, on the job site, and everywhere in between. Save time and maximize efficiency with adjustable shelving customized to your business's needs.

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1:07:16Griffin Newman:This is a film about a quiet barber named Ed Crane, the second chair. He keeps saying it like he's a violinist. Yeah. At a barbershop in the city of Santa Rosa, which is a city in the North Bay. He got kissed into the barbershop from his brother-in-law? I guess so. Is that Batalucho is his brother-in-law, right? Right? Yeah. Am I wrong about that? Yes. He's the brother of Fran Leibovitz. Yes. Fran Leibovitz. Francis McCrane. Right. And he is a barber who it seems like says like two words out loud.

1:07:49David Sims:He's Calvin Coolidge-esque. You know, I finished watching this and I immediately said I wish I had thought to do the tally on this. How many lines?

1:07:57Griffin Newman:Yes.

1:07:57David Sims:I truly would be curious how many things does he say out loud in this movie? narrating the film.

1:08:04Griffin Newman:Yeah, yeah. So he hears his voice.

1:08:05David Sims:His voice is across the whole thing but I was thinking this might be a guy who has less than 20 lines of dialogue which is also just interesting to consider in the production of this movie that Billy Bob Thorne is often just showing up standing there holding a fucking close up for three minutes that later will be soundtracked by his own voice. He might as well be wearing a Mandalorian helmet for God's sake. He might as well be wearing a Mandalorian helmet. This is the way.

1:08:32Griffin Newman:And he is married to a bookkeeper at a sort of department store, I guess it is, or whatever. Yeah. Who is a bit of a lush, I would say.

1:08:47David Sims:She likes to, dare I say, pull the cork.

1:08:50Griffin Newman:He's in one of those marriages where they don't seem to like each other or talk to each other, but they're not fighting either.

1:08:55David Sims:Well, let's do Pin in this. I think this is kind of the key to the multiple interpretations of this movie. And it's interesting how wildly different I've seen reads for this movie. This is one of those

1:09:07Griffin Newman:in the James L. Cain style movies where it's like the first half of it, the plot moves relatively deliberately. And then the second half, shit really just keeps happening over and over. Because the first half is this kind of quiet, will he, won't he, where it's like John Pulido, who we have not yet mentioned, but is kind of at his best in this. You, yes. Like, is this his best Cohen's performance?

1:09:31David Sims:There's, I mean, he's so good in Miller's cross. Yeah, he's in Tolliver. He's amazing in Miller's cross. It's such a fucking skill piece performance. But this is, in a way, it's his most rounded performance. You're right. He's playing a,

1:09:43Griffin Newman:he is playing an actual closeted homosexual, barely closeted. They call him the pansy. Who is like a classic 40s guy, right? Sort of a con artist who's like, dry cleaning. It's the future of cleaning.

1:09:55David Sims:All I need is 10 grand. It's a classic Coen's character who's full of all these inherent contradictions where you're just like, he is this incredibly aggressive, sloppy con man who is also desperately lonely, barely closeted, right? And is like... With his pants up over his belly. They love that. But you're like, this guy is constantly at risk of torpedoing his own hustle out of his desperation to be loved even momentarily. You know? There's like so much going on with this guy, even down to sort of like the whole relationship to his rug that he's introduced in the movie, going into a barber shop, needing to get a trim underneath, but not revealing that in fact the hair on top is fake until the first chair leaves.

1:10:41David Sims:Yeah, he's remarkable in this film.

1:10:43Griffin Newman:He's wonderful. And he is like, oh, if only I had$10 ,000 for my dry cleaning. And I love the connection to Hudsucker there, because Hudsucker, of course, is about the hula hoop, and then it becomes about the Frisbee, and this is about dry cleaning. Can you believe this thing?

1:10:55David Sims:Well, because in the context of this movie, you could see the Billy Bob character walking away at the end and being like, and I guess he was just making up that dry cleaning thing, right? Like the way Polito explains it when he's in the chair, dry cleaning. You heard that right, dry cleaning. But it made me Google who invented dry cleaning. It is. It feels like a 50s B-movie science fiction plot of like they just spray it with chemicals, No pear on the fabric. I mean, I will say that to this day, I am kind of like, I don't understand.

1:11:22Griffin Newman:What do they do? I do not understand how that works. It's basically like they just wash it in chemicals rather than in water. I mean, that is, and the chemicals don't get it wet. I don't know how else to describe it to you. I've never actually seen dry cleaning. No, because you give it to somebody. Well, I mean, what do I get dry? I got a suit dry cleaned once a year and you give it to the guy and then you pick it up a few days later.

1:11:44David Sims:Cellophane on it. If there was a Netflix series called What is Dry Cleaning? One billion views. Yeah, 8 ,000 episodes. I'd be watching all of them. I would quit this podcast and just start doing a What is Dry Cleaning recap podcast. Can I just, for one moment, just, if not pull the brakes, just kind of slow the car down for a moment because I'm realizing, Jordan, what is your general relationship to the Coens? I think this is an important question to ask. Huge. I mean, I've obsessed, you know. But you calling out that you're a little older than us, you were able to come up with their rise in a way that David and I are entering midstream.

1:12:19David Sims:I'm a little older than you, so I discovered the Coen brothers when Raising Arizona was on Cinemax 20 ,000 times a day. And I discovered them, and I did not see Miller's Crossing in theaters, but I was aware of it, but I was too young. But it feels like a very Jordan movie. Oh, yeah. So I saw Miller's Crossing the minute it came out on VHS. And then from there on, and I saw everyone in the theater. So I saw, the first one in the theaters was Barton Fink, which is a huge deal and I loved it, obviously. And I mourn the schism, you know, because I feel that I've never been able to watch all of the Macbeth film.

1:12:57It put me to sleep both attempts. And I know, you know.

1:13:00Griffin Newman:That's fine. It's a good. I mean, I like that movie, but like, you're not going to die. Yeah. And then I thought that Driveway Dolls was pretty bad and I haven't seen Honey, Don't I Here? It's awful. and I didn't see Ethan's Jerry Lee Lewis. I haven't watched that.

1:13:15David Sims:I mean, that's maybe the most damning statement in the world that Jordan Hoffman has not watched Ethan Cohen's Jerry Lee Lewis documentary. Yeah, that's a little weird. I should probably watch that. Is that on the streaming? I can stream it somewhere? It's like not now. That's the thing. Oh, really? I felt like I watched it on Plex for free like three months ago, not on someone's server as part of like the Plex streaming library. Wow, it's probably on Canopy. It's probably on Canopy. But then now it's gone and I was seeing it only available as like$20 purchase. It is rentable.

1:13:45Griffin Newman:Yeah. Is it rentable? I've read what I bought. It's only 71 minutes long, so it's a breeze

1:13:49David Sims:if you want to watch it. It also looks like it took about 65 minutes to make. I've read Ethan Coen's short stories. Yeah. I think they're very good. Garden of Eden, I think the name of the book is called. And so they were my favorites. I have my own theories as to why they split. I don't want to get into that. but I hope they get there. I hope they get back together again because they can't do it on their own. They always say we're still writing stuff together. Yeah. We needed to explore some side projects and we'll come back together. I could understand the break. I could understand it. I mean, listen, I'll just say, if you were Ethan Cohn, would you want to hang out with Frances McDormand that much?

1:14:28I mean, she's a pill. She's very talented. She's very talented, but your sister-in-law... This is quite a take for Jordan to launch an hour into this episode. I mean, if your sister-in-law is Frances McDormand, and be like, oh, Christ, I got to hang around Fran some more.

1:14:40David Sims:I think they're two very, very complicated marriages going on in that partnership. I think they're just interesting dynamics in all directions. I would not want to hang out with Fran all the time. I mean, she's talented as hell, but like every movie, and she's, you know, I don't know. She's too much, man. And so that's my take. But I think that they should get back together because they don't have the juice on their own, and everyone knows it. It's certainly not the same, and together, they have more juice than basically anyone else on the planet. I know. They're one of the best. Like, if I had to name my all-time all-time favorite directors, you know, they're in the top five.

1:15:18It's them. It's Woody Allen. It's... I mean, I sound like... It's not like a schmuck. It's Kubrick and all the classics. Yeah, Victor Salva.

1:15:29David Sims:Gian Gomeschi. I think he's got a good movie in him, even if he hasn't technically directed yet. He should cast Billy Bob. No, I mean, it gets a little cliche, but I think they're that good, you know? Yeah, no, they are. But there are some people that just don't, that don't like the Coens at all. They are a little bit of like, if you don't like their shtick, even though they have a broad palette, I mean, they're, Inside Llewyn Davis and Raising Arizona are very, very different movies, but you can tell they're the same authors. It is interesting to read the reviews of this film at the time. And as we said, a lot of it came out at a bad moment, right?

1:16:02David Sims:But there was a sense of like, is there anything to this movie beyond shtick, right? Yes. No, I was a response to it at the time. You see that was not the sort of like, is this all a joke? Is this all a lark? But it was like, are they just kind of so obsessed with the idea of the vibes and the look and the character? And like, what is this movie actually about? I think it actually is. What is driving? I personally come away from this film and find it meaningful. I do, too. Which which is funny because the whole premise is don't look for me. And the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, which, by the way, I once made Joel and Ethan Coen laugh.

1:16:35Well, I share that. I made them laugh at a... You shared your opinions on Francis McTorne. I made them laugh, and they don't like doing press, as you know. But I did press for a serious man. I had to do a roundtable interview, which is awful. They have you with the dregs, with the movie guru and all these schmucks. I don't even want to get into it.

1:16:55Griffin Newman:Do you think it's more humanist or... Yeah. Whatever the... An inside joke. But so I agreed to do a roundtable because I'm like, I'm going to get to meet Joel and Ethan Coen. So it's after Serious Man. So I got a chance to make a statement. I said, hey, guys, this film, The Serious Man, has a lot to do with the Heisenberg uncertainty principle. You know, he's on the blackboard. You know, he talks about the cat. You know, even I don't understand the cat. And I'm like, man, who wasn't there? He hinges on the Heisenberg uncertainty principle. This guy Fritz, or maybe it's Werner. I'm like, what's your third?

1:17:27Are you going to do the trilogy? And that made Ethan chuckle and made Joel smile. So that's a major win. as far as I'm concerned. And then they say,

1:17:35Griffin Newman:get the fuck out of my round table. They didn't give me an answer. They just kind of shook me. I got the hi-hat. Okay, well, all right. To briefly summarize what the movie is about, because I do think it is more interesting to talk about what do we think, right, is actually going on. You were throwing out the basic setup, right? The basic setup is, he's the most passive, placid guy, but he makes this one decision that's kind of out of the ordinary where he's like, I will get 10 grand to give to this rando, and I'm going to do it by blackmailing the man my wife is cuckolding me with.

1:18:07David Sims:My wife's boss, who, by the way, is about to expand his business and give her a prime role in the operation. So essentially, I'm fucking her over. Right. And by the way, fucking over his household. Right. I'm essentially kind of dynamiting everything

1:18:21Griffin Newman:for this kind of cockamamie thing.

1:18:23David Sims:And his evidence is a husband knows. He's not wrong, right? But it's not like he catches them in the act. No, no, but he knows. Right. he's sensed a vibe. He decides to leverage this to get$10 ,000 to give to a con artist who also maybe just wants to fuck him. And I love that when he shows up in Polito's room, Polito doesn't even recognize or remember him. You get this reveal later with Gandolfini where you're like, he's throwing out 40 of these an hour. And he's surprised if anyone follows up.

1:18:53Griffin Newman:And when he almost gets away with it, but there's a couple problems. One, of course, there is no dry cleaning business that will soon furnish him with this investment. And two is that Gandolfini does eventually figure out that he's the blackmailer. And so he murders Gandolfini. But then he almost gets away with that because the crime gets pinned on his wife. And she, after, you know, a couple twists and turns, is sent to the chair. And before she goes there, she fucking kills herself. Right. And when he accidentally, he kind of accidentally on purpose kills Gandolfini, there's the great shot. He looks at his hands.

1:19:28his hands do not have blood on them

1:19:31Griffin Newman:um and then the bizarre kind of final act of the film plays out where it's like he sort of has like all the knots have been tied up right like he's gotten away with it in a sort of way but then he starts being crazy like he decides he should make a piano star out of his lawyer friend's daughter played by Scarlett Johansson how awesome is Richard Jenkins of this movie. He's amazing. And obviously he's amazing in Toggle 14.

1:20:01David Sims:His first film with them as well and they didn't want to audition because he'd been rejected by them so many times that he was like, I can't go through the heartbreak of missing out on another Cohen's part. I would love to know what parts he's auditioning. I mean, there's a lot of parts in Cohen's movies that you can see Richard Jenkins writing. And they use him so well

1:20:17Griffin Newman:from this moment on. Yeah. And then she like makes a pass at him in a car. He crashes the car. And then when he wakes up, he's accused of murder because they found John Polito's body, who I think Gandolfini murdered. Correct. He beat the

1:20:33David Sims:pansy to death for making a pass at him.

1:20:35Griffin Newman:Right. And, you know, and so then he goes to trial and then Battaluccio, who put up, like, you know, the barbershop as the mortgage to try and protect his sister, attacks him in court. And so the case falls apart. It's declared a mistrial. And he throws himself at the mercy of the judge who sentences him to the chair. And before he goes to the chair, he sees a UFO, ignores it, and is executed for his crimes. Right. That is what happens in The Man Who Wasn't There. Of course, right?

1:21:03David Sims:I guess so, but like... Gandolfini's wife has shown up at his door after he's seemingly gotten away with the murder. Yes. Who is that actress? She's got a great face. John Turturro's wife. She also plays the woman at the picnic on the beach in Serious Man. Right. Her name is Catherine. She's a great, great actor. Great face, but great face. But those two performances, she is like too phenomenal. I know she appears in a couple other moments, but basically what are killer one scene performances in Cohen's films that are wildly different. And in Serious Man, she's like the one figure of intense empathy and human connection where I feel like the great tragedy of that movie is you're just like, just connect to her.

1:21:45David Sims:Right. This guy's life is crumbling. And this woman like sees him and hears him. Yeah, it's a great scene. And then she does the opposite thing in this film, which is basically... Shoves him over a cliff mentally, yeah. Billy Bob Thornton's in this pocket of just being like, why am I getting away with this? Why is the universe lining up to escort me through Scott Free?

1:22:05Griffin Newman:I should be in a James M. Cain novel where it's all going wrong for me, and it doesn't seem to be.

1:22:10David Sims:And we're going to circle back to my bigger take on the movie. But she shows up at the door, and he thinks this is like the wife who's put together the pieces, and now she's going to blackmail him for killing her husband. and instead she goes like, hey, I know your wife's not guilty. I know what happened. We witnessed an alien a year ago. We saw a flying saucer. It changed us. We know too much. Someone had to like close the loop. You're good. Your wife's good. I'm sorry for your loss. You know, yeah, for the tragedy of your wife. Yeah, getting pinned with this.

1:22:44Griffin Newman:The, you know, imagine, I remember seeing this for the first time. The UFO thing does throw you for a loop the first time. I had completely forgotten that was part of the movie. Oh, you had forgotten even on rewatch. Because once I saw it, I was like, that's the movie where they throw in the UFO. Right. And the UFO, of course, visually, it's the same as the hubcap from the car crash and the surgeons. Classic silver saucer UFO. Right out of Plan 9 for Matter.

1:23:08David Sims:It's so good. There's a movie called, I think it's literally, it had a couple different titles, but I think its main one was Earth vs. the Flying Saucers. Yes, yes, great movie. which was an early Harryhausen film. That is one of the movies this feels most matched to visually. Yeah, even before you actually start putting flying saucers in it. Can I talk about, because we mentioned the Scarlett Johansson character, because this is something that I wanted to bring up. There were two things I wanted to bring up today. One was I had to remind the listeners to subscribe to Hofstack.substack.com. The other thing was there's the great scene in this where Scarlett Johansson is playing one of the Beethoven sonatas.

1:23:46And the whole movie is like sonatas from Beethoven. They're beautiful. And she mentions what I think is something that we all know. Beethoven was deaf when he wrote this. And when you learn that Beethoven, when you're a kid It seems impossible. It seems impossible. I don't know how old you were, but at some point, some teacher said to you Beethoven, you know, Mozart, Beethoven, Bach, the big three. This guy was deaf. You're like, what? That makes no sense.

1:24:07David Sims:At that point, it sounds like a weird fucking quirk. Like he's an X-Man or whatever. Exactly. But then I think this movie also circles, you're like, A, it's impossible. How could he do it that well if he couldn't even hear it? And then this movie also circles the tragedy of like, and this guy didn't even get to hear it. I know, yeah. Here's what I had to say. Everybody, please, I need the floor. I got both my, I got a visual. I got both my arms up like I just scored a touchdown. Just talk. This is so important. Give him space. Let my man cook. Ludwig van Beethoven is a man who everybody knows was deaf.

1:24:39He was not just deaf. His entire life, from the age of his teens until he died. He suffered from crippling diarrhea. He had, and I'm not... You're speaking my language here. Google this. I'm not joking. I read an 1100 page biography by Jan Swafford on Beethoven. 900 of those 1100 pages are about him shitting. Beethoven shat nonstop. Now here's the thing. He, toward the end of his life... Why this was a good guest book. It always is. Toward the end of Beethoven's life. He was writing, this makes me cry, the most sublime music anyone's ever heard, except for him because he was deaf. The Ode to Joy was one of the final things he wrote.

1:25:26Ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba. That was about how it feels to really

1:25:32Griffin Newman:clean out. A true Bob. Yes. Yes, the Ode to Joy is a Bob. There were quotes of the people who would in his apartment towards the end of his life, there were bowls of shit at his feet everywhere. He was just shitting and writing music and his aides couldn't... And he hadn't lost his sense of smell.

1:25:55David Sims:He was smelling shit while writing Old Detroit. They couldn't even visit him. They wanted to go, have you seen Ludwig? Is he writing? Is he well? We can't go in there. It's too disgusting. Yeah. He was the most putrid and vile man that ever lived sitting in his own shit. Yeah. But he was creating these works of art that have stand and will continue to stand for centuries. The most beautiful works of art man has ever created while his body was falling apart, literally falling out of his ass. And yet. David looks really happy. Yeah, go on, Jordan. I'm just telling you that I find this to be so touching.

1:26:31And I feel that people people should stop saying, oh, Beethoven was deaf. Scarlett Johansson should have said he was deaf and he was shitting for 20 years.

1:26:39David Sims:He was shitting his brains out. For 20 years. Don't you hate when you have diarrhea? Yeah, my friends. It's not fun. Preaching to the choir. It's not fun. The man who wasn't there. Yeah. And he was suffering. And yet he still created this artwork. He gave us joy.

1:26:52Griffin Newman:What do we want to say about the man? So that's all I have to say.

1:26:55David Sims:Many, many things. I'm just getting started here. No, no. Yes.

1:26:58Griffin Newman:What do you want to say about the man who wasn't there? Yes, yes.

1:27:00David Sims:I have many, many things to say. I think... There are people who think I'm making this up. Jordan, I'm actually going to tell you to please be quiet now. They need to discuss the film. in the Kim Dameshi interview with the Boxmasters 2009 which by the way Letterboxd should add are you kidding come on yes I'm kidding okay fine

1:27:17Griffin Newman:can we talk about the movie please alright take a comedy point let's talk about the movie please two can give me Griffin can we talk about the movie please yes yes thank you

1:27:24David Sims:I think this film is a little bit of a in certain ways an answer key for their world view at a point in time where they're at an interesting in what transition. I'm interested. I think this movie... Not interested in Beethoven's butt. Sure. I think this movie is in certain ways a rebuke to the notion that they are nihilists who are mocking all their characters and don't care about anything. Right? I think this movie is an interrogation of a man who seemingly doesn't care about anything. Despite the fact that he does end up murdering people... Gets sucked into a Cohen's plot. ...and pulls crimes, I think this movie is kind of about, despite his misdeeds, a largely benevolent sociopath, right?

1:28:10David Sims:It is almost a borderline sympathetic portrayal of someone who is actually incapable of feeling or at the very least isn't capable of being able to have any healthy relationship to his emotions or express them to anyone in his life.

1:28:25Griffin Newman:He's, right, he's so far gone in terms of like, he'll remark on things like the sex act, having not committed it. and like, you know, whatever, like his relationship with his wife and how it's curled. He knows it's not normal. He knows his life is weird, but he doesn't seem to mind. But he won't say like, and I didn't like that. What's weird, obviously, right, is that he makes the decision he makes, the initial decision, where you're like, why? If he's so, you know, like contented with just kind of like doing nothing and cutting hair and kind of just going through the motions, why does he do this?

1:29:02Griffin Newman:I can give you... I'm not saying you need to explain. The only thing he doesn't like is people who talk too much. Right. That's the only thing that he ever expresses discomfort. But he's surrounded by people who talk too much. Like everyone's always fucking talking too much.

1:29:13David Sims:There's a part where he talks about who is, oh, when he hires the new barber to replace Baldaluci once he starts pulling the cork, right? And he says, I hired this guy because he seemed quiet like me, but it turned out he was just nervous at the interview. Just another gabber, right? There's this term of like, it's just another guy who wants to talk all the fucking time. and his disappointment at realizing that this guy's another one of those, right? And yet he talks so much about him meeting Doris, his wife, and immediately feeling this connection and him being embarrassed that he couldn't speak to her and her saying, it's fine, I'll do the talking.

1:29:53David Sims:This sense of like there being a balance there, right? And when he has the moment where his life is flashing before his eyes in the car after he's rebuked. Right, he seems pretty happy in that memory. Yes. He says, my life flashes before my eyes, and the memory he goes to is basically this one kind of innocuous exchange they had. Chris McDonald as a door-to-door salesman, who he kind of didn't have the social acumen to send away, and Frances McDormand was able to cut out and neutralize, and then she sits on the couch and they don't know what to say to each other. And you kind of feel her waiting for him to say anything, right?

1:30:28David Sims:That they rushed into this marriage, said, I know everything I need to know about you. But you kind of get the sense, I think, that she thought at some moment he was going to be able to give her something that at some point would open up, right? And even the moments of recognition, what he reveals when he's making the defense to Shalhoub, you know, there's the scene where he confesses, basically, to Shalhoub, to everything he did. And Shalhoub responds as that's an interesting legal strategy, assuming that he is making up a yarn to be able to take the heat off of his wife. And Shalhoub's kind of given a test drive to see.

1:31:03David Sims:Yeah, I can see how that would work. And she seems touched. She seems touched. And part of that is him revealing that he knew she was having an affair because a husband just knows and that he caught it and he did it. And you see the look on her face of her kind of wanting to apologize for hurting him. and yet being like, this happened because you don't fucking touch me. You don't talk to me. You don't hear me. He's not inherently a bad guy or a dispassionate guy. Well, he is dispassionate to a fault. To a fault. That is his core issue. This is probably a great opportunity to talk about something that never dawned on me, but is a widely accepted theory among many people.

1:31:40I want to fold this in. Yeah, fold it in.

1:31:42David Sims:Fold it in. Okay, so I didn't know this was a big read and I was finding a lot of this as I was looking at letterbox logs and reviews and analysis, different pieces over the last, since last night, right? Try to see, like, what are people's reads on this movie? And a lot of people read it as he's a closeted gay man in a time who could never come to terms with that himself. He perhaps is not even cognizant enough to know.

1:32:02Griffin Newman:It's not, well, he knows a pass gets made. Because when Polito makes a pass, he's like, was that a pass? That's not, I'm all business. And that I feel like is... Way out of line. Right. If you're like, okay, that's what this movie's about. That's where you're like, yes. Okay. He clearly, there's something demonstrative about where he's like, I am going to not have sex with this guy to prove the point that I am definitely not gay.

1:32:28David Sims:But also, Gandolfini responds to that by beating this guy to death. You know what I'm saying? Like, it is a movie in which you expect him to react in a more extreme way. And he just kind of goes like, was that a pass? I'm not here to have sex. How do I give you money? You know, like, there's a little bit of that feeling. I would be very curious to know how, first of all, was this in Joel and Ethan's mind when they were writing this? And or if they I sometimes feel with their work, they are they they oftentimes are allowing they know that, oh, people are going to interpret this all kinds of ways.

1:33:02And they just move on. I agree. So they might just be like, yeah, hey, like it might have been after that. They might say, hey, some people are going to think he's gay. Great. Let's talk about there's three big moments, right?

1:33:13David Sims:It's the Pulido moment. It's obviously the recognition of we have not had the sex act in several years. And is Scarlett Johansson attempting to give him a sexual favor? Yeah, but kind of out of this. But she's also like 16. She's 16. We should applaud him for rebuking her. He has like a very like, what are you talking about kind of response. It's the most animated he gets by anything in the film. That's true. Is stopping her from going down on him, right? And she's doing it out of this sense of you've done me a kindness. I owe you the favor to repay you but also what I think is being what is unspoken in that scene is Scarlett Johansson's assumption that must be why you were doing this the whole time it's not just I feel like I owe you this I assume if my father's stoic older friend starts wanting to give me a fucking career set up

1:34:01Griffin Newman:it must be I need to essentially

1:34:04David Sims:and if I've gone along with it this far I understand the agreement that's what I'm trying to do and his reaction is like what? how could you possibly read it that way? well he's more

1:34:12Griffin Newman:heavens to Betsy he says right

1:34:13David Sims:but he physically recalls in a way that causes the car

1:34:17Griffin Newman:to crash it does but it feels it does feel a little performative like I do think he does or like much like with Polito like it's like I mean and again look I don't want to like Jordan saying I do feel like the Coens are like look make of it what you will but both times it feels like he's like no I am not here for a pass and with ScarJo he's like I'm not here for a blowjob and I'm like I think you wanted to see if that one was coming.

1:34:41David Sims:I think he is obviously hyper fixated on her in a way that he cannot process. This is that era. Well, yeah, because this is Ghost World and this are the same year. She was probably not 18 because she's only like 18 in Lost in Translation. She's so young in Lost in Translation. It is bizarre. Right. Yeah. No. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. She was pretty damn young in 1984. She's like two years older than me. Yeah. So she's 19 when Lost in Translation comes out. I think she was 18 when they shot it. I think she maybe turns 18 when they're filming. But yes, she's actually a teenager in this film. It is bizarre to watch her at this age now that we're just like 25 years later and she's apparently the biggest box office star of all time.

1:35:20This is the year where she... Ghost World came out in 2001, right?

1:35:23Griffin Newman:Yeah, this was the Ghost World year where it was like, oh shit, like the horse whisperer girl is like gonna be a star. Manny and Lowe. Manny and Lowe was before this. I never saw Manny and Lowe.

1:35:34David Sims:Manny and Lowe's great. Let me continue to try to lay these bricks, okay? I think she's recognizing that he has some obsession with her. It is driving him, right? But we're also living in this guy's internal monologue. I think this is him being as honest as he can possibly be. And I think in the same way that like, if he's gay, it's something he has not worked through. He is almost in denial of whatever sexual attraction he has going on here in the same way that he still, in my opinion, loves his wife. And I think she would love for her to touch him. and he cannot explain why he is not doing it.

1:36:08David Sims:That's a solid, I get that. I don't, okay. I think it's why this title for me is the right title of the film, right? Is there was a core emptiness to this guy that I think is both an analysis of, A, the archetypes of the types of guys at the center of these types of noir stories, these sort of like hardened men who have seen it all and get a bad shake, you know, all the tragedies pile up on top of them and they maintain this stoic face. And you're like, well, that's a psychopath, right? Who can just sort of like smoke a cigarette and make a pithy comment and move along and walk off into the rain.

1:36:45David Sims:The other part of this is, this is very much a post-war movie of men being defined, and Gandolfini is a character who has lied about his service, right? That men are defined by either you didn't go and you live with deep insecurity about the fact that you seem as less of a man because you didn't serve, because of your fear, your physical, the shortcut, whatever. it is because that's a tough break kid falling or you served in the war and something broke inside of you psychologically and emotionally. Now you have to just go back and cut children's hair and act like everything's OK or be a total drunk like Richard Jenkins.

1:37:15David Sims:Right. You just can't fucking work through it anymore. And here's this guy where it's just like I think the gay reading comes from and obviously sexuality is the thing that keeps coming up in this movie in an interesting way of just like there is something that feels unsolved in this guy that he cannot figure out. He is holding something within him. And so it's obvious to go like, what is his secret that he that is animating him that we are not solving. But I think this movie is about the unsolvability of this guy, which is like the great tragedy of his life is he can't fucking say what he wants.

1:37:44David Sims:He cannot express what he wants. He does not know what he wants. Our friend Jordan Fish, who was a recent guest on the episode, his letterboxd log was, now on watching this film, my biggest takeaway is he loves his wife so much that this is a movie like a tragedy of a guy who like literally just can't say it. Wow. Right? He's a wife guy. Can't say it in his actions. Can't say it in his words. Like, I do. I think the fact that he's such a conundrum is the Heisenberg kernel of the film. The more you look for facts. What does Tony Shalhoub say is like, it's what you started the podcast with the quote from.

1:38:23If you look for something, yeah, if you look for the facts, you'll find they don't mean anything. And I find that to be rather profound. However, I could see a coen's critics saying and you know give me that's a whack off type thing to say like you know hey if you look to if you try to understand it you never will like i could sort of see a critic condemning the cones like ah those tricksters they're so smart their heads up their ass they made a movie that if you try to figure it out that's the point that you can't figure it out i think this movie has enough juice that you can come correct as they say and and do something this pretzel logic like i think if a lesser director tried to make a movie like if you try to figure you're out the main character.

1:39:04It'll break your brain. It's annoying. But I think this actually works. Well, because I think it's the point.

1:39:09David Sims:I think it's about a guy where there's no there there. He's almost like a parody of the criticisms of them, right? Yes, yes, yes. This is style. This is affectation. Yes. This is mood. This is energy. This is confidence. But is it just rooted in a sort of cynical nihilism who gives a shit, right? And you're like, no, it's actually a fairly sympathetic portrayal of a guy whose great curse is that he can't fucking care. Yeah, I buy it. I saw someone on Letterboxd say that there is very much an autistic reading of this movie at a time where you could not diagnose this guy in that way. And that they said, I kept thinking while watching this film of Temple Grandin's quote, that making it through daily life makes me feel like I'm an anthropologist on Mars, right?

1:39:55David Sims:Yeah. Even just the way he talks about these haircuts. Masking and all that, yeah. What do we do with the hair? Do you ever think about what hair is? You know, like all of these weird broken things inside of him manifest in this way that seems like a cool fucking noir character. And you're like, this guy just literally doesn't know how to be a person. That's kind of cool. Like, yeah, I mean, forget. I mean, there's the gay read and then it could be the asexual reader. Just like you say, he's just he's he's I mean, I don't know if the code said let's make a movie about an autistic person, but just somebody who's not on not vibrating on this plane.

1:40:25David Sims:You know, David, I feel like you have. Well, I've just been listening.

1:40:30Griffin Newman:You had to let me go. it's just interesting that there's a film with a narration where the narration in my opinion is basically lies and misdirection or just unreliable and he says lots of stuff and explains nothing and he does not explain why like I keep pounding why he does the thing why does he blackmail James Gandolfini it's an insane thing to do it's weird because he doesn't look like he's somebody when he's describing He doesn't say, you know, and I finally wanted to get one over on my wife. No, no. He makes it seem like he just wanted to be rich. But he doesn't say that either. No, no, no, no, no, no.

1:41:08He does because he says that like he's stuck in a rut. He's the second chair. And he makes it seem as if he were to get a lot of money from being dry cleaning, being George Jefferson, he would. Finally get a piece of the pie. Yeah. Finally get that. It'd be like he'd be on easy street. but the thing is like it's almost like he doesn't covet fancy clothes cars or houses like what is he going to do with that money if he gets the dry cleaning money it's a little bit weird we don't

1:41:34Griffin Newman:know what he wants but I think he is kind of like do I want sex do I want money do I want my wife to die or like he's mad at her thinking about these

1:41:46David Sims:things may I may I give my read yeah it's interesting specific question please do I think he is, once again, in a way he would never be able to work out even to say internally, right? These are things he could not even admit in an internal monologue. We should mention, as you said, the narration is mostly lies. The reveal at the end of the film is that he's writing this for a men's magazine. His entire story is going to get turned into some tawdry, like, I killed my pregnant wife. Why? Right? Like, he's going to become tabloid fodder that will then basically probably become a highly fictionalized B movie.

1:42:20David Sims:Right, right. Right? Like, that's what his story is becoming, and we're seeing the toniest version of it. But I think he thinks he's telling the truth. I think he is explaining stuff as much as he thinks he can. I think this guy has no relationship to himself. And I think he can't explain the dry cleaning thing for that reason. I think what is going on, and I tie this back to In No Country, obviously a later film, but the moment of the gas station owner having inherited from his wife being this moment that Anton Chigurh shows such disdain and terror at, right? And obviously, a lot of the Coen films deal with the sense of different forms of cucking, right?

1:43:03David Sims:And men being defined by their relationships with their wives and living in fear of them or living through them or all these different things. I think there is this part of Billy Bob where he feels like he is failing his wife by being a man of no ambition who is stuck at the second chair in a job that her brother handed to him, right? And now her career is about to level up. Now she is about to be even more the breadwinner and he is like, I am not worthy of her if I am not contributing more to this.

1:43:31Griffin Newman:This is where you lose me.

1:43:32David Sims:But it's an interesting read. He already knows his wife is slipping away from him. But he also says, I don't think he's, I don't think he's putting money into this because he wants to buy her nice things. I think he's putting money into her because he feels like if he doesn't have money, then what the fuck status does he have in this home? Does he plan to make a fortune in dry cleaning and then buy her things? He's not incredibly smart. Well, that's true. It is not a well thought out plan. No, it's not a good plan.

1:43:58Griffin Newman:No, but I just don't buy that he likes his wife as much as you do. I think he kind of hates her. I think he likes his wife as much as he likes

1:44:04David Sims:anyone. And that's exactly it. I mean, when he has that death, they've had the death vision of the great scene. He's watching her kick. I mean, she's being awesome by telling the salesman to go F himself. He doesn't smile and say, good one, hon. He's still as stoic as ever. But you project onto it when he's sitting in that chair watching her go to town. He's thinking, wow, my wife kicks ass. So she seems like an emotionally unregulated woman. And it makes it difficult for him to deal with her. But also, she's one of the only people in this sort of vaguely polite picket fence society who like cuts through and says the thing that no one's saying.

1:44:39David Sims:She gets drunk at the wedding. She gets drunk at the wedding and of course and then tells the woman who's about to get married how marriage sucks. For a guy who like basically doesn't know how to talk, that's what he would want to say if he could put the thoughts together. And his brother-in-law's riding a pig and eating blueberry pie. No, like I don't think his love of his wife is motivated by anything sexual, right? No, no, no. Like I think he is largely an asexual person, but I think he feels a fondness for her that is the closest thing he has to a motivating force in his life. And yet the whole point of this movie is it's like, why does this guy do anything?

1:45:10David Sims:What fucking drives him? So many of these noir films are like, why does this guy get fucking tangled up in this mess?

1:45:16Griffin Newman:Because they want money.

1:45:17David Sims:It's always because they want money. But if he doesn't want money for himself, then who does he want it for?

1:45:22Griffin Newman:I don't think he wants money. I think he wants to ruin his wife. I just don't see it. I read it the opposite way. Right, but he makes a decision that's destroying her, and then he takes some pleasure in watching it happen. He doesn't care for James Gandolfini. That much is clear. He is hurt by the affair. James Gandolfini is sort of an offensive creature. Yeah, he wants, he's not, he's okay to stick it to him. Not that he doesn't want to kill him, but he wants to give him the works, as they say. Right, right. I kind of feel like in this type of situation where you find out that your partner is cheating on you, it makes you kind of not think rationally.

1:45:58Griffin Newman:But he's not finding it out. He knows. He's kind of sensed, but it's even, it's so, it's so outrageous that then Gandolfini would talk to him. Right. Like about the hypothetical that's so obviously. Right, right. But it's like everyone doesn't take him very seriously as like. Right. I'm having a affair with a married woman. No one you know is what Gandolfini says to him. I feel like that would make you kind of crazy to like know that this guy thinks so little of you that he's going to do, he's going to disrespect you in this way right to your face.

1:46:33David Sims:but this is also the core of sociopathy right like where you hear these accounts of like horrendous crimes and they track down the person and they interrogate them for days and they just never get to the bottom of like why did you do this you know right and they go through the checklist like did you get a sexual satisfaction from it is it revenge is it power and sometimes these people just go like i don't know yeah you know sometimes these people have a whole fucking system in their head, right? And it all ties together in a logic, a warped logic, but there is a chain within it. And sometimes people are just like, I don't know.

1:47:09David Sims:I just started doing it. It just kind of happened. I think about the movie Detour a lot while watching this, which very much feels like a Grimm's Fairytale version of a noir. And that is a movie where a guy who isn't that smart and isn't that interesting just keeps on fucking stepping further and further into shit. And at times it starts to feel like the character is supernatural, right? Like, mild spoilers. The guy seems to, like, murder people by accident. Yes. Right? He is... What is almost, like, Final Destination-style setup. Suddenly, like, phone cords become tied around people's necks, and they die in front of him.

1:47:43David Sims:Right. I mean, that movie was kind of, like, right. That was, like, very dark, even for the noirs of the era, or whatever. Yes. But that's a movie where this guy is just trying to fucking outrun this thing that you know is going to catch up to him. Right. It is so fascinating that the structure of this movie is basically every time he does something terrible or something terrible happens in his vicinity, almost immediately someone shows up and like hand delivers him a mulligan. Yeah. Like a white glove. When the cops come to tell him the news that she's been arrested. He's ready to confess. He's as well, I guess we're going downtown.

1:48:14I'm like, what?

1:48:14David Sims:You see it on his face the second they walk through the door, it's over. Yeah. Right. And he's not going to fight it. You can tell I think on his face that he's about to tell them everything. Right. And also he didn't, he only killed Gandolfini by accident. He did kill him, but he was being strangled. He was about to die.

1:48:33Griffin Newman:He does not want to kill him. He's not looking to murder him. No, he happens to have that thing. I think he would have been just as happy. Which they go, that's a lady's weapon. It's a cigar cutter.

1:48:44David Sims:It belonged to the guy. And they're like, no, it looks like some lady shit. But he would have loved to have got him in a less lethal spot. Had he punched Gandolfini in the cheek and Gandolfini if stepped back and then they would have taken a breath, he would have been just as happy. He didn't mean to kill him, but he got him in the carotid artery and thus the story progresses. Right, but I mean, he more wants to humiliate him,

1:49:09Griffin Newman:like publicly or whatever, privately, but he wants to humiliate. Can I mention now the second line that plays in my head all the time from this movie, other than my wife and I have not performed the sex act in years, which by the way, my wife and I performed the sex act plenty of times. Don't worry about that. But the other line, and I actually find it to be quite touching, is Battaluccio. How do you pronounce his last name? Michael Battaluccio. Battaluccio. When the trial's going off the rails, and he says, is this procedure such a strange line reading? Because he's new to the court system, and earlier he's like, don't let these rich guys fool you.

1:49:47They're just like us. They put their pants on one leg at a time. They use the toilet just like us, Ed. You know, it's a great moment. And then he's like, Ed, is this what happens? And Ed doesn't say anything because he doesn't know. Ed, Ed, is this procedure? And I find that, you know, we all think of like, God forbid we should ever be in court. But you do think that when you're doing something real professional, like a medical thing or a courtroom thing, like it's going to be by the book. And it never is. Like if you're ever going to get your tonsils out, you would think, you know, you go to a medical thing and it's like, oh, we're going to text you to have you come into the next room.

1:50:25It's like, text? What from text? I mean, years ago, there was no text. This is how it's done. Is this procedure? Sure. That's how I feel constantly in life. Is this procedure? Is this procedure? Shouldn't this be? You know, I recently moved to New Jersey. I had to change my - Congratulations.

1:50:40David Sims:You held for applause. Recently, do you want to? Ben's going to plug. He loves New Jersey. Grandparents used to live in Point Pleasant, which is a great spot.

1:50:49Griffin Newman:Yeah. Lovely town. Just changing your Verizon account, just changing, you would think, what's the, you know, the - What you're referring to is the enchanting of modern life, I will say. Well, this movie was written in modern times. You know, Batman's character is representative of the past, but I think he speaks to me in the now. Well, but - Geico is the frigging company. You would think I was the first person ever to move from New York to New Jersey and get my... It's so complicated. It's so... You have to have fought. You know, I'm going to tell you something. You're going to fall out of that very comfortable shit.

1:51:22David Sims:Do you want to burn this entire chunk right now? Because I know you're working on a comedy dynamic special, Move into New Jersey. To speak to Balaluccio's character. Well, I got to talk about Geico real quick. No, you don't. This is what... You can't just say, Hey, Geico, I moved... David's taking out a cigar cutter. No, no, this is so quick. This is so quick. You can't just say, hi guys hoffman here geico how you doing i moved to new york new jersey okay bye no yeah you have to officially change your the license plates and go to the dmv wait wait no this is the funny part this is the funny part you have to call geico 10 minutes before you go to the dmv i'm serious he says to me on the phone call me back when you're about to walk into the dmv you have to do it the morning of why can't i do it after no no no you could get a penalty so why can't I do it two weeks before I go?

1:52:13Why do I have to do it like a maniac in the parking lot of the DMV? Do it right before you go.

1:52:18Griffin Newman:I'm going to throw a bottle at you. No, it's true. I don't care. I want to talk about the movie. But is this procedure? Oh my God. That's what it was. It's insane. If I can speak to Botolucho's character, I thought 15 minutes ago about the movie. Yeah, all right. Shut up, Jordan. All right, all right, all right.

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1:53:02Griffin Newman:Tomorrow morning is knocking. Stock your fridge now. How about a creamy mocha frappuccino drink or a sweet vanilla, smooth caramel maybe, or white chocolate mocha. Whichever you choose, delicious coffee awaits. Find Starbucks Frappuccino drinks wherever you buy your groceries. Baudeloucho's character is a guy, he's the boss at the barbershop, who has hit his spot in society and is like, I am so happy here, right? And all he does all day is talk defensively about how great it is to be exactly him, right? You know, it's like, yep, this is where I gotta be, right? No higher, no lower. Small business owner, one employee.

1:53:40Griffin Newman:That's it. I own the store. And there's a tragedy to what happens to him, which is he gives away everything to protect his sister, who is, you know, he shouldn't do that. But there's also something, again, with Ed Crane, where you're like, Ed Crane clearly is like, I can't stand this fucking guy. Yeah. Right? And I hate that he thinks. He doesn't say it. Now, maybe if you're 11 or 12 years old,

1:54:03David Sims:Frank's got an interesting point of view, but sometimes he got on my nerves.

1:54:05Griffin Newman:Right. I hate that he thinks like this is, you know, whatever the best you can get. So that also comes close to an explanation for why Ed is like, maybe I should try to get some dry cleaning money. Like maybe I should escape. And like why it is sort of so disdainful quietly of all the normal people around him. And it speaks to sociopathy or whatever, a sort of antisocial kind of feeling that he's not really expressing. But that's all. Just like Batalucho is kind of like a quiet, like little bird. I mean, if you had to work with that guy all day, maybe he would. Yeah, he would drive you fucking nuts.

1:54:42He would make you want to, you know, blackmail James Gandolfi.

1:54:45David Sims:But all of his lines that sound like kind of cool, stylized, like funny dialogue, when you actually look at the text, them are just like, I don't understand these people. Right. Like I'm confused by behavior, basically. And I was just I'm looking at some of the quotes here, but like the line where he talks about him and Doris getting married. he said you know i think her line was i know you as well as i'm ever going to and she's right she was right you know this notion of the relationship never got deeper from that moment this feeling of like absolute confusion even the opening lines of the film are him talking about like the other people right they're going about their day and i'm holding a secret and there are all those shots in the car of him just watching the passers-by like like an anthropologist on Mars.

1:55:28David Sims:Yes, exactly. This like absolute confusion at it. As we're saying, things keep lining up for him so well, right? Absolutely like in sync with tragedy that it feels like is cosmically this guy like blessed in some way. Like, why is this the luckiest man in the world who keeps fucking dodging the car? To the extent that at the end of the movie

1:55:49Griffin Newman:aliens try to abduct him and he's like,

1:55:51David Sims:no, I don't think so. But also, that happens after he has now gotten pinned with the one thing he didn't do. What takes him down, what sends him to the electric chair, what makes the aliens decide that he's not worthy of their time, that they don't give a shit, he's not worth studying, right? There's just nothing really going on here is that it's like the one thing I didn't do ends up being the thing that sends me to death and I'm just sort of like, I don't really know what's on the other side of this. And he doesn't see, well, in a way, I was about to say he doesn't really seem to mind death.

1:56:22He, in a way, is saying maybe it'll be better.

1:56:24Griffin Newman:He's definitely like, that'll be a place where things will make sense. Yeah, no, he's kind of, the last line is actually very touching. He says, I'm going to be able to say something to Doris that they didn't have words for here or something like that. It's touching and also psychotic.

1:56:36David Sims:But it's what I, why I think this film is a weirdly emotionally sincere film because it is like a sympathetic tragedy about a psychopath, right? Maybe not a psychopath, but someone who is struggling with whatever,

1:56:49Griffin Newman:interacting with human people. A little mishug.

1:56:51David Sims:And I think it speaks to the like Scarlett Johansson thing where he's just like, I don't know, something's animating me here. I got to keep going here. Do you want a blowjob? No. What are you talking about? Right? She has that speech where she tries to give him the gift of being like, you know, they're people like you. They're like patrons of the arts. What's the line she uses?

1:57:07Griffin Newman:You're saying it.

1:57:08David Sims:I mean, I don't know. She's almost trying to give him like, here you go. Here's your label. Here's what you do. I know you're you're an enthusiast. You're an enthusiast. Yeah, which is I know you're confounded about the fact that nothing drives you. Maybe this can be it. Right. But in exchange for what? and then he goes and sends her to the expert and the expert's like, nothing. And he's like, she's bad? And it's like, no, it's just, there's like nothing. She's like a girl who plays piano well. And the expert, of course,

1:57:36Griffin Newman:played by the chubby rain guy from Bowfinger, love that guy. Who has transitioned? Is that right? Correct. Okay. There's another, there's another parallel universe in this movie which has a happy ending which is he accepts the blowjob from the underage girl and he learns to love life. And the car doesn't crash. The car doesn't crash. He's like, wow, blowjobs from Scarlett Johansson are terrific. I love life. And the movie ends, and then it goes into color. Right. And then everybody's happy. But there's also no takeaway from that scene.

1:58:04David Sims:Movie goes into color. Age of Aquarius plays. Yeah. There's no takeaway from that scene where he leaves that room and is like, fuck it. They're wrong. I know you're a star. We're driving to New York City. I'm getting you on the Ed Sullivan show, right? Where he's a guy who's now fanatically devoted to proving everyone wrong. and like, you know, fucking Colonel Tom Parkering her into what she means to be. It just feels like he's like, I don't know, is this the answer? And they're like, no, that's nothing. And he's like, fuck, then I got nothing. Yeah, yeah, that's funny. Right? And like, my life flashes before my eyes.

1:58:37David Sims:And the one thing I regret most is not saying to my wife, hey, thanks for that. You know, or like good job out there with Christopher McDonald. It's shocking this movie wasn't a hit.

1:58:48Griffin Newman:I was about to say, no wonder that it was not that well attended.

1:58:53David Sims:But this gets back to the Billy Bob Thornton thing where you're like, is this guy like a pill or is he a genius? Is he like completely out of touch with himself or more in touch with himself than anyone else?

1:59:03Griffin Newman:Is there any idea where he ever sort of spoke to these ideas? It was on Canadian public radio or anything like that.

1:59:08David Sims:I don't know if you've seen the fits he has thrown at the recent Landman premieres. I will say I have not been checking in with this He looks at Captain Jack Sparrow on Crystal Man Cool

1:59:19Griffin Newman:To be clear That doesn't actually sound cool I don't think I want Captain Jack Sparrow

1:59:25David Sims:Google Billy Bob Landman Premiere

1:59:28Griffin Newman:Is it still season one of Landman? Season two is about to debut in the fall So I got time I'm going in on Landman I'm going to be your Landman It's interesting because Again on Landman And he's just like a guy with glasses and a button down. But yes, he is kind of giving like, you know, male Ani DeFranco or whatever. Wow. He's making late stage Shawnee Depp look minimal. His beard looks like peels. And he's got like a hat on top of a Kangol hat. And like the most scarves. Wait, that looks like Aquaman. What the hell's Aquaman's name? Momoa? He looks like a deflated Momoa there. He looks like all these guys.

2:00:08Griffin Newman:It is the biggest earring too. And a big earring and a lot of chains. And I don't mean chains like Ben chains, like a lot of, you know, peace and love and dog tags. What a weirdo. Poor guy.

2:00:19David Sims:I find the WTF interview very interesting because he talks so much about how defensive he is, right? And that his attitude has always just been like, I don't care. I shut it all down. I'm me. And then you're just like, this guy is so hair trigger, right? He cannot find peace within himself. He needs to get Ed Crane in his life. He's the opposite of Ed Crane in that he cares too much about everything all the time. He's the man who's everywhere. Right. The man who was there. Did you know he was married five times before Jolie? Yeah. No, I didn't. Five before Jolie. Was he married or dating anyone other in the public eye other than Jolie?

2:00:54David Sims:He was in a years-long relationship with Laura Dern, who he left for Angelina Jolie. And then after Angelina Jolie, he said, I'm never going to get married again. And he ended up getting married to the woman he's been with for the last 20 plus years. He met up that. Connie Anglund, who's a makeup suspect. She is the adopted daughter of Walter Murch. Wow. And she is often credited as a makeup artist, but she was primarily like a special effects puppeteer. She worked on a lot of the fucking full moon pictures. She worked on like Puppet Master and Pre-Asteria. She seems like similarly odd and driven by her own interests.

2:01:30Can you imagine what their home is like? I cannot. It must have. I think it's normal. No, I think their basement is like, is the greatest Halloween basement of all.

2:01:39David Sims:I think they have a well-decorated house. Yeah. But I just think there's an interesting kind of thing between the two, the character and the actor here. He doesn't really direct. Slingblade, he wrote and directed. And One False Mood, he wrote, but Carl Franklin directed. Right. And All the Pretty Horses. And then he did the aforementioned daddy in them. And he did a film called Jane Mansfield's Car. And both of those barely got released. Both of those are kind of southern dramedy ensemble pieces. No. It's not about Jane Mansfield. No, but there's a car she may have once owned

2:02:11Griffin Newman:or something like that. Well, I would not want that car. Oh, it's the car that she died in. Yeah, no, that's of all the cars. It's the one you don't want. That film's 20 years ago? Yeah. So he stopped. He stopped. Does he write novels? He fucking put out 17 albums. I mean, Jesus. That's true. His output is clear. No wonder he was angry.

2:02:28David Sims:He put out 17 albums. Yeah, listen to us. You're like, he's kind of the king of these shows where you're like, who's watching that? But also, apparently, everyone's watching it and he's got a fucking mantle full of awards.

2:02:37Griffin Newman:Landman is the true hit, but Goliath, yeah, was something of a hit. I mean. And obviously, he was good on Fargo, like, you know, playing a sociopath, like playing a crazy killer man. You know, he was in a very bad movie with Shia LaBeouf called. Eagle Eye. Yeah, he's good in that. Of course, he's the guy who says you're in a mess of trouble. Yeah. That's like what he does. That movie is so bad, but he was so good in that that I've actually watched that movie a few times. That's the thing he stopped doing because of the TV work. He doesn't need to. He always used to talk about that he would do the things that animated him, right?

2:03:15David Sims:Coen Brothers movie, he'd write his own thing, and his agent would go, it's been three years since you've been in a movie that's advertised at a bus stop. And he'd show up, and he'd be in Eagle Eye. You're in a big world of trouble. You're in a big mess of trouble, son. Right. And now he just does the one thing. Do you remember who directed Eagle Eye?

2:03:31Griffin Newman:I agree. Yeah, I was going to say, what's that guy up to? He made the Triple X movie, right? the third triple X movie which is excellent I want to say

2:03:38David Sims:triple excellent

2:03:39Griffin Newman:it's triple excellent it's the best of the trilogy easily that is true he has made three movies since then Redeeming Love a Christian movie faith based movies I was going to say one of them was at least Shut In which is sort of like a thriller that didn't seem to go anywhere and then yeah another religious movie Mary about so his eagle eye is his masterpiece and it looks like Anthony Hopkins was in the one I bet he was working real hard the film came out November 2nd 2001 in limited release. But this is to speak to the sort of, you know, the box office offerings of the time. I want to note that while this movie was not a big hit, it's opening the same weekend in limited release as Amelie.

2:04:19Griffin Newman:And Amelie was a movie that obviously post 9-11 America was like, we like this. Whimsy, please.

2:04:26David Sims:And, you know, was like the film that broke box office records in Europe in 2000. You know, it took a long time to come to the States. and then it landed at just the right moment and just the right climate. I need a French pixie

2:04:40Griffin Newman:to tell me how to live right now. And then like Billy Bob Furns like, and people like, no. Where's the French pixie? Now, number one at the box office this weekend, Griffin, is an animated film that is good. We have remarked upon its possibly deleterious effects on animation. It's called Monsters. As a whole. It is Monsters, Inc.

2:05:01David Sims:And is also cited as one of the first big 9-11 post 9-11 hits. Yes. It has a huge opening weekend. $62 million. And the Pixar folks were like, we thought the film was good. It was tracking well, but then it kind of like wildly overperformed. And there was this feeling of like, oh, this is exactly what people want. I paid to see it now. You know, it's funny. I mentioned that my wife and I first met right around this time period. We, we, I remember the first time I ever saw the trailer for Montezing was like one of the first dates with my wife with whom I have the sex act perform the sex act

2:05:35Griffin Newman:starting to get a little Lady Doth protest it's not much of a performance but we performed the sex act and early on we did it more frequently and I remember going to see at the Ziegfeld may she rest in peace we went to the Ziegfeld and saw Funny Girl they had a replay and we saw the trailer for Monsters Inc and we'd been dating for two weeks and I'm like dying at the trailer because Mike Wazowski and Sully I was gonna say dying at the trailer I was like I can't wait to see that Mike Wazowski a bit of a spiritual animal

2:06:04David Sims:for you. I love Monsters Inc. The sequel, which was a prequel, not so good. I like it quite a bit. I've only seen it once. But Monsters Inc. is fucking five star. It's very good. I've seen it a billion times. So I applaud it being number one at the box office and I think it should have been. Thank you. What did it open to? 50 or 60? 62 million dollars. In 2001. That was one of the bigger... I think that was one of the 10 biggest openings of all time at that point?

2:06:28Griffin Newman:Well, I don't know. And we'll never know. Number two at the box office is a science fiction action film starring a major star who is sort of trying to cross over into American stardom. Is it Jet Li's the one? It is James Whang's film The One starring Jet Li and Jason Satham. Jason Satham's kind of the two in that one. You don't want to be the two in the one. I'll tell you that. It's sort of like Highlander with like dimensions. Right. I've never

2:06:56David Sims:seen the one. It's multiverse Highlander.

2:06:58Griffin Newman:It's like almost every Jet Li Hollywood movie. There's stuff but it doesn't quite

2:07:04David Sims:The premise on paper, like just, if someone hands you a slip of paper and it says, Jet Li has to travel across the multiverse killing other versions of himself so he can absorb their power. Oh, that sounds good. The more that he kills, the more powerful it becomes. You're like, great. And you're like, congrats, five million dollars for buying you pitch. You open up the fucking final draft and you're like, what is this? How do you write this movie? Like, you feel it where you're like, the premise is so good and there's kind of no good way to dramatize it. It's got some cool stuff in it. It's got some cool stuff in it.

2:07:35Griffin Newman:It's, uh, James Long's follow up to Final Destination too. Um, made 43 million in the US. Not a, you know, did okay. Um, and it, indeed, it does have a young Statham back when he was like a true martial artist. Number three, also new. These are all new this week. Is a thriller starring, uh, actors. Mm-hmm. And, uh, you know.

2:07:57David Sims:2001 thriller.

2:07:59Griffin Newman:Is it domestic disturbance? Thank you. I just somehow knew you needed nothing. I can tell you why. Travolta in his shoulder-ish length in a period. No, I think he's pretty

2:08:09David Sims:close cropped in that one. Is he? Let's see.

2:08:11Griffin Newman:He's his wife. John Travolta, Terry Polo, Terry Polo and Steve Buscemi.

2:08:16David Sims:Is dating Vince Vaughn and he's convinced that his wife's new boyfriend slash husband is a psychopathic murderer and he's trying to protect his son but it turns out Buscemi's actually the villain. That's the reason. This is his look. Okay, you're right. It's sort of like, you know, a half Michael. It's Swordfish with the Goathees. All right. So double Buscemi because he's in Monsters, Inc. as well. That is why I remembered and got it so quickly. Yeah. Because it was a big Buscemi weekend. And also a weekend.

2:08:46Griffin Newman:Buscemi.

2:08:48David Sims:Buscemi weekend. I got caught up on saying Buscemi and then stumbled on weekend. I think it's Buscemi.

2:08:52Griffin Newman:It was the one where he got like Buscemi. It's Buscemi. Seth Rogen corrected me and I always forget. And it's Scorsese. Scorsese. It's Scorcheesy. It's Scorcheesy. Buscemi got like slashed in the face in a bar fight

2:09:05David Sims:while they were making that move. Vince Vaughn and Steve Buscemi went out drinking in North Carolina where they were filming the movie and Steve Buscemi was stabbed in the head. That's terrible. And they were trying to keep his character a secret because he was kind of the John Doe in the seven of the film. Because if you know Buscemi's in it, you're like, I bet he's going to try to be the bad guy, right? That's the misdirect. But then it got all this news coverage because you're like beloved character actor stabbed in the head with beer bottle. But yes, Buscemi was king of the box office this weekend.

2:09:34Griffin Newman:Number four at the box office is a film in which an alien is allowed to be frank. An alien is allowed to be frank? Let him be frank. It's a motion picture called K-Pax. No, it's K-Pax. Wait, this is so funny. This, they were... Let me tell you. Wait, wait, wait. One thing that K-Pax ain't is funny. No, no, no, but this is funny. Right now, the day we're doing this recording, like less than 24 hours ago, a friend of mine texted me, they're doing like a special Blu-ray re-release in a steelbook of K-Packs I'm like who the fuck is gonna pay for that who wants that this is the disastrous end game of steelbooks or whatever where it's like I guess we have to do K-Packs

2:10:11David Sims:no Ben don't do it I'm not doing it Griffin bought K-Packs I'm not he just did it I bought the rights I'm putting it on my own label Griffin Select he's eating a banana with the skin on did you know there's five K-Pax books? They only filmed the first. Wild. Wow. I just want to bring up L-Pax and N-Pax. In future episode, shortly, upcoming episode, Entolable Cruelty. Next week's episode? Or is there one in between? No, I think you're right, right? We talk about how at one point, Jonathan Demme and Will Smith flirted with making that movie together. Apex. While, well, they were trying to make Entolable Cruelty together, came out of originally Truth About Charlie is supposed to be Demme and Smith.

2:10:55David Sims:Demi was so desperate to work with Smith, they also flirted with doing K-Packs. We've all flirted with K-Packs. Demi, Will Smith, K-Packs. I love intolerable cruelty, but Demi's intolerable cruelty would have been great too. It'd be fascinating. I'd prefer his K-Packs too. You know, I will say something to you all, listeners and people in the room. I've never seen K-Packs. Jordan. Winter Bertha. Send me your new address in New Jersey. That's right. Ben, I know you said that I can't buy the K-Packs deal book, but can I buy it for Jordan? Do they get K-Packs in New Jersey? I'm going to buy it. And J-Packs.

2:11:31Why is he called it? Is that his name? Is his name K-Packs? No, his name is Pratt.

2:11:35Griffin Newman:He claims to be from a planet called K-Packs. Or is he crazy? He's Mork from Ork. He's Mork from Ork with Bono sunglasses. Jeff Bridges was the Starman. Sure. So it's Starman meets Mork from Ork.

2:11:47David Sims:Sure. In this, he's the therapist. In this, he's the Robin Williams in the Awakenings. Number five at the box office. Yeah.

2:11:55Griffin Newman:is the rare Shalhoub Starer. First build in this film? He's first build. Wait, no, that's...

2:12:01David Sims:This thing's dripping with lube. What, Big Night? No, how would that... That made 12. In the year 2001, there's a movie where Shalhoub is first built. It's a live action picture. Can you give me a genre? Horror. Oh, that's... Oh, okay. It's like the... It is... Insidious of 2001. It's not like 13 Ghosts. It is 13 Ghosts. Wow. Shalhoub is the first build in 13 Ghosts? He is the lead character. He's got it above Lure. He's a ghost hunter. Oh, my God. He snuck in above

2:12:26Griffin Newman:Embeth Davids and Matthew Lillard and Shannon Elizabeth. When will they bring us the 14th ghost? One of past guests and friend of the show, Pilot Fero, its favorite movies. 13 Ghosts. I, multiple times, went to Pilot's house and was like, what's going on? Watching 13 Ghosts. And I was like, 13 Ghosts? Yeah, Shalhoub's a ghost hunter. Has to wear weird glasses to see the ghosts?

2:12:51David Sims:Yeah. Blu-ray.com, a great resource. has some of the most deranged message boards. And there's a thread that for me is one of the greatest American texts of the last 10 years. That is a guy who is adamant that 13 Ghosts was released in 3D and keeps saying, anyone have any word on when it will come out in 3D Blu-ray? Oh my God. And people respond, there is no 3D version of this movie. It wasn't released in 3D. And he keeps describing how strong his memory was of seeing it in 3D and saying, and the 3D was really good. Wow. And then people are just pulling out, digital 3D doesn't happen until this point and that year it would have been anaglyph it wasn't anaglyph there's no record of it anywhere and then he starts going to other message boards and being like these people shut me down wow you must have the answers he's living in his own alternative reality 13 Ghosts the 13th Floor remember that movie yeah 13 was that the same year no no I feel like the 13th Floor

2:13:47Griffin Newman:is like 99 99 because that was a that movie is sort of Matrix-esque was that in your

2:13:51David Sims:Cyberpunk watch?

2:13:52Griffin Newman:sure was. Yeah. That is a movie that is based on a very, very dense hard sci-fi novel called Simulacron 3 and the Rainier Werner Fastbinder like miniseries World on a Wire. It's based on that same text. What? I had no idea. Oh, I've seen both of them.

2:14:11David Sims:13th Floor is based on both of those things which are both and World on a Wire

2:14:14Griffin Newman:is somewhat

2:14:15David Sims:World on a Wire is not based on that same source material but it is. No, it is. Oh, it is. But like

2:14:20Griffin Newman:it's using both. That's crazy. such dense ideas and at the same time you're like Craig Bierko's the star of this it's not Bierko and Maul it's Bierko and Maul baby I mean how did this go wrong it's a movie and it's got like 15 twists you know it's got all this like what is reality I'm comfortable enough to say I don't think I understood I don't understand it at all I also know it's six hours long and it felt like

2:14:45David Sims:it was rushed so I can't imagine like the fucking Columbia Pictures 100 minute version let me tell you it feels a little rushed there's another I cannot deny that there's a French movie called I think it's called Je T 'aime Je T 'aime which is also like about brain universes and whatever and I don't understand that movie

2:15:02Griffin Newman:levels of consciousness and reality I mean a lot of the time these things are that's an Alan and René movie I believe we you know right are about how we can't understand much like the man who wasn't there if you look for the facts the facts aren't there number six is the box office I agree with that Riding Cars with the Boys the solid Penny Marshall movie that I assume we'll be covering anytime Very soon. Any day now. Imminently. You can start doing the math how many episodes until we cover that. Number seven, From Hell. Speaking of Johnny Depp on meth. Not a bad move on opium or something, but you know.

2:15:32Griffin Newman:I like the movie. Really? Yeah, I like From... I mean, I love the graphic novel, obviously. I saw it in the theater and said this is a nice way to spend two hours. Remains insane that that graphic novel was adapted by the Hughes brothers starring Johnny Depp, but yeah. And it was a moderate hit. It did okay. Yeah. Number eight is Training Day, which did great, obviously. that was the kind of thing again in the fall people like we like this kind of darkness like really really kind of like over the top

2:15:57David Sims:my memory also is that it was a movie that was supposed to come out like September 16th and they like kicked it like a month out of fear of like is this too intense for people and then it overperformed yes and people were like solid programmer and then it wins Oscars it sure did

2:16:12Griffin Newman:right number nine is the Bandits the aforementioned Bandits so Thornton is

2:16:18David Sims:hey now

2:16:18Griffin Newman:Thornton's on fire although that movie underperformed obviously You love to remind people. Well, it did. It did. Because it was right after Sixth Sense and stuff where it's like, Israel is back. Israel is back. And then 10 is Serendipity. Oh, sure. The bad rom-com. Yeah. With Q-Second. About the... Russian tea house. Hot chocolate. Yeah. Serendipity. Yeah. Yeah. Serendipity. I never saw it. It's not very good. I've had their hot chocolate. Those Q-Second movies after High Fidelity where Hollywood is like, you're a rom-com star and he just seems so angry about that.

2:16:51David Sims:Did you say this? And yet I watch fucking America's Sweethearts and I'm like, he is on fire in this. I can tell he doesn't give a shit. You have defended that movie

2:17:01Griffin Newman:on several episodes at this point because you've watched it sometime in the last six months. Probably like three years. And your defense of it is like spread out over a few episodes. And now I'm going to have to go and watch like, who directed that? Who was the studio executive director? Joe Roth. Joe Roth's America's Sweetheart. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which I remember being a two-star movie. What was the last two and a half thing John Cusack was in that wasn't that was memorable that wasn't a direct what about Chirac nothing he's insane in that movie I always forget that he's in that but he is good in that it's an interesting performance yeah he's notable let's say he's notable in that but it's not a direct video shot in Bucharest I mean Lee Daniels

2:17:40David Sims:the butler one of the weirdest performances ever he's Nixon in that one he's Nixon he plays Nixon like Lloyd Dobler and he's like

2:17:46Griffin Newman:I am not a crook checkers but Love and Mercy he's the less engaging part although I do think he is quite good no he's great but that movie's at least seven years old Love and Mercy more that movie's like close to ten years old

2:18:01David Sims:it's really good it has been a while who directed that he's a weird millionaire he's like it's I forget the guy's name but he was like a film financier who was like I want to make something and people were like yeah good luck with that buddy Steve Bannon well done it's Steve Mnuchin that's who it is is it real no No, no, no, no. I forget the name of the guy, but I'm truly, I'm scrolling back and I'm not finding the last thing he was in, I would say, of any legitimacy was Chirac, which was now 10 years ago. That's like 2016 or whatever? That's 2015. You know, F that guy. He's got to get his shit together.

2:18:33Since then, Arsenal, blood, money,

2:18:34David Sims:singularity, distorted, river runs red, never grow old, pursuit. I mean, like... And he doesn't even really have an excuse because when Nicolas Cage was doing this nonsense, he was in tax debt. He had to do it.

2:18:45Griffin Newman:It's Bill Polad who is like part of the Pollard family who owned the Minnesota Twins. He's the one who did Love and Love. Who mostly produces. And he did the Casey Affleck one. Yeah, Dreaming Wild. I believe that John Cusack could say to his managers, look, I make 10 of these bullshit movies a year. Let me do seven instead and give me one real movie. There's a director that would love to cast.

2:19:07David Sims:I think he's deeply cynical and doesn't care enough anymore. Well, then F him. I agree. That's always the vibe I've got. Because there are people that want to work and he's talented. He's wasting his time. He meant so much to me. And it's like, while I will defend shit like Serendipity and America's Sweeter where I'm like, this guy on autopilot had juice that people today wish they could conjure up. That was him at his most checked out. What's a recent movie where you could, like Richard Jenkins shows up in The Man Who Wasn't There. Where could you plop John Cusack and say, what a great performance?

2:19:35David Sims:I think he's truly like, sure, my quote is five million dollars. And they're like, you're not getting that if you do one good scene in a Coen Brothers movie. Yeah. I think he's just got a huge ego. He doesn't want to do it. He is notoriously one of the biggest assholes in Hollywood. I mean, Nick Cage had to do it because he was in tax. He had tax problems. Of course, Bruce Willis, we know he was banking up because he was sick. All of Cusack's closest friends and collaborators no longer speak to him anymore.

2:19:58Griffin Newman:It's pretty obvious how Steve Payne could tip Robbins. How he's on a right flow by himself. You know what? Then enough about him. His politics are normal. Oh, he's not normal. He's post swastikas on X. And then he deletes them and says, I didn't know that was anti-Semitic. I just wanted to share something. Yeah. So Jordan, a running theme with these kinds of movies is that I watch it and I'm like, this shit would work out for me. I would get away with all of it. And so I just want to kind of walk through, if I may, how I feel like I could pull off a happy ending. Yeah, yeah. Okay. All right. Still blackmail that motherfucker.

2:20:40Griffin Newman:Okay. So you want to do that. Right. Okay. But I don't invest in dry cleaning. You see that coming a mile off.

2:20:46David Sims:Money. Right. Yeah. I'm also going to say right off the bat even before that point I think just like a bed of 10 years of being open and communicative with your wife sure I like that having a healthy trusting relationship but he still wants the 10 grand from Gandalf having the sexual relations yes right but then of course blackmail performing the sex act yeah

2:21:05Griffin Newman:okay we quit our jobs me and Francis go to the happiest place on earth Disneyland hey I like it is the 40s I think it doesn't exist yet but I'm going to allow it fuck okay you go you start buying land. You go to Wildwood, New Jersey. We rekindle the marriage. Okay. So maybe Niagara Falls, let's say. Sure.

2:21:23David Sims:Whatever Disneyland was. Cue Salacious Crumblash. Rye Playland. Was that going? Yeah, I think that one's really old.

2:21:29Griffin Newman:Gail Feeney still gets in trouble for the embezzlement. Okay. Yeah. Right? Maybe he kills Polito. I don't know. It's not my problem. By the way, this is where I had to work it out. Oh, no, it's fine. Rye Playland opened in 1928. I told you, I knew it was old. Me and Francis moved to New York city buy a brownstone hey that real estate baby that will pay off now you're generational right you've got investment insight okay i've become a successful abstract expressionist artist because that seems easy yeah totally easy and also it's getting deeply cynical also maybe ben buy some ibm stock okay yeah yeah so place bets on winners of the world series that you know yeah right be like the bulls are going to run the table in the 90s.

2:22:12David Sims:I like that this is the first time you're, if I had been in this movie, it would have worked out. Basically involves you being a time traveler. It's just like Googling stuff that will happen. You're in the period. Okay, the movie is simple. You have the knowledge that you have. Lastly, and then fucking like Miro is like, wait, someone did dots before I thought of that?

2:22:29Griffin Newman:Or whatever.

2:22:30David Sims:Copyrighted the term computer?

2:22:33Griffin Newman:Jackson Pollock throwing paint in the garbage can. Invest in Tang. buy tang stock okay lastly though I see an alien they take me on their ship we become good friends besties that's the thing do you think Joel and Ethan ever had by the way that was terrific Ben do you think the Coens would appreciate you saying all that for sure individually though not as a unit unfortunately now do you feel that there was ever a moment when they were spippling the script where they said and then Billy Bob gets on the spaceship No. No, too bad.

2:23:08David Sims:No, no, if only because, you know, there's a clip that goes around a lot of Guillermo del Toro interviewing them for the Llewyn Davis DVD. It's one of the best extended talks they've ever done. It's like 45 minutes. They'll talk to him. Of talk and shop. And he says, like, you know, the moment, to jump ahead, you know, we'll cover this in weeks from now, but where Llewyn Davis sees the offering to the town where he knows his illegitimate son lives. The devastating scene. And all sincerity, one of the most remarkable scenes. And you think you know, oh, well, that's obviously where the movie's going.

2:23:37David Sims:That's going to be the next 20 minutes of not the ending. And he said, did you ever consider that? Did you do the exercise? And he went, you know, it's funny. We never once until this moment considered that we could have written that he drives there. And I think that is just kind of the way they think. Like, the ends are, you write the moment of the person not choosing the thing. They never do the mental exercise of what if they did the thing. Yeah. Yeah. It just seems to be a pattern with them. For sure. Yeah. And that's why they're great. And I think this movie, if I just kind of conclude my read on it, is like this tragedy for them about the way that they think people perceive them as like, imagine if you actually didn't care about anything, you know?

2:24:16David Sims:Well, yeah. Like what a miserable way to live life. They had been now making movies for almost 15 years, right? So they'd been around the block and they'd received plenty of criticism. And even though they're cool guys and they're the smartest guys in the room. No, but they. It had gotten under the skin. And I appreciate your read on this as this is their rebuke to their critics. And they have this kind of steely, deadpan vibe. They don't want to speak much. They're stone-faced in interviews. Yeah. Well, I did make them laugh.

2:24:43Griffin Newman:They are funny. Of course, I forget. That they are funny in interviews about this movie, though, where they're like, of course, Lebowski got ignored by awards bodies. Of course, O Brother was sort of like, you know, just this comic. You know, like, and then this, we take it to Cannes, we win Best Director. Because they're like, yeah, it's black and white. You know, like, we made an arty movie again. Like, they are always so deflective of any kind of like, oh, no, we really care about what, you know, the critics think or what the voters think. And I believe them.

2:25:13David Sims:I don't think they really care. They know that stuff helps. I think if this movie was meant to be like an aggressively defensive retort to their critics. No, it's not that. Right. They would have been more direct about it. I think it's more them kind of interrogating the idea of how they're perceived. Right? This notion. I think you're right. And I think if they had gone stronger, they would have said to themselves, why are we caring? Like, you know, like, who are we to be upset about our critics? Like, we get to make movies. Like, let's shut up and make movies. You know, I think they're too self-aware.

2:25:42David Sims:No, but it's like an imaginative exercise of, like, the type of person they're accusing us of being. How would that person even function in the world? Yeah. Right? If you truly just don't give a shit and just kind of stand around looking cool, saying cool stuff. David's checking his watch. Is it time to go? We've been yapping. Jordan, we can't. come to our listeners with one simple request. We just want 157 % of you to sign up for Hofstack. Yeah.

2:26:08Griffin Newman:Hofstack.substack.com. And your writing is elsewhere. I write for movies and TV and stuff. But it's true. The kids are going crazy for Hofstack. They're loving it. TikTok is out. Hofstack is in. We got any new seltzer reviews coming? I miss you doing that work. You know, it's funny because I've been, there might be some listeners who do subscribe to the Hofstack saying, hey buddy when when's your next update i don't write constantly i need to get back into that but what i predict is that when this episode airs in x amount of weeks there will be a torrent of of material and it's going to be great so if you buy now right now uh the low low price of x amount of dollars per i should probably raise the price real quick no lower it i'll lower it okay yeah lower it um it's going to be great and the people listening you know the blog that was there is my house stack.

2:26:56Oh, is it a good blog? Let me tell you. Vlog. Occasionally I vlog. Occasionally I vlog. When I'm too lazy to write, I just talk. Yeah, the camera loves you. I did a vlog about weapons. I loved weapons. That was a good movie. I loved it. Do you think weapons will be nominated for the best original screenplay nomination? That's a good question.

2:27:13Griffin Newman:I floated this on Katie's podcast, Katie Rich, from the show, also Subteka, where I was like, if that movie is a true phenomenon, you never know. And it's heading in that direction. It's kind of heading in that direction. We're recording this on the eve of its second box office weekend. And she rightly was like, you know, there's a big, big sort of, you know, barrier to that kind of horror movie. Something like what Coogler did with Sinners, where it's mixed with other genres.

2:27:38David Sims:I was going to say, it's also Coogler's at a little bit more of an anointment point versus Kreger being fresh. I could see. You can't have Sinners and Weapons nominated for Best Original Screenplay. It's too much. I agree. It's too much. One of the other. I wonder if it's a bridge too far. But I also think Weapons has a stronger acting contender than Sinners does.

2:27:59Griffin Newman:No, Sinners has the stronger acting contender.

2:28:01David Sims:Who do you think's the... You think... Michael B. The double MBJ.

2:28:03Griffin Newman:Yeah, he plays two people. The Oscars love that shit.

2:28:06David Sims:And you don't think Amy Madigan's going to get nominated?

2:28:08Griffin Newman:I mean, I would love to see that. Truly would love to see that. Wait, let me ask... We got a long season ahead of us. Yes. I think she... No idea. Did Ruth Gordon get nominated for Rosemary's Baby? She won an Oscar, my friend. That's why I'm playing. It's a crazy win. She won. So Amy Madigan could get nominated as a... I would love to see it. I really think that performance is very special. I agree, and I think it's sticky. And she's an Oscar nominee. It's been a while. I think Weapons... And Harris could yell at people for her. He's a yeller. He's her husband. I don't think Weapons is anywhere.

2:28:39They could set the Oscars together, arms crossed, not applauding.

2:28:41David Sims:Yes, exactly. Mean mugging, looking like two grumpy cats. Yeah, iconic stuff from them. I don't think Weapons is anywhere near as good as Rosemary's Baby, obviously. but I do think it's kind of one of those movies. Yeah. I think like kind of pinnacle of Hollywood film. Yeah. I think weapons as a horror film is it's not crazy to say it's it's Rosemary's Baby. No. It's not wrong. And you know what's so funny is that this gal who we both love Julia Gardner she was in the Rosemary's Baby prequel which nobody saw.

2:29:14Griffin Newman:She was in Apartment 70 which I thought was pretty good. You saw it. I never saw it. I watched it. It was good. Should I watch it? I love her. it's one of those things where it's like it's directed by the person who did Relic which is a movie I liked which is why I watched it and it's one of those things where number one you're like I wish this just wasn't a Rosemary's Baby prequel right it would be fun if this was just a horror movie set in an apartment building number two of it is obviously it'd be nice to see in the theater I saw it on fucking Paramount Plus number three is it really just it's not perfect but it has two or three beautifully directed like sequences that are so cool Diane Weiss plays the Ruth Gordon the cast of us.

2:29:49It's good. That's good. I'm watching it tonight. I'm watching it tonight. But I love, if we're talking Julia Garner talk, I love that Australian movie. Now, David Sims does not like the ending. right before record about the... I love the movie. It's called the Hotel New Hampshire or something. I don't know what it's called. Royal Hotel? The Royal Hotel New Hampshire. It's very, very, very good.

2:30:05David Sims:The documentary is called Hotel Normandy, I think. I get the name confused. Hotel Rwanda? It's based on documentary. Yeah. It's based on the documentary Hotel for Dogs. By the way, the Yelp reviews of Hotel Rwanda are terrible.

2:30:16Griffin Newman:We gotta go. Salacious Crumb is asleep. Well, no Wi-Fi. You know, that's... No Wi-Fi. No free Wi-Fi. Ben's looking at his phone. Luckily, we already recorded our ads, but I think Griffin has to record like a radio play or something. We'll talk about it later.

2:30:29David Sims:Thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate, review, and subscribe. Tune in next week for... More podcasts. Intarable Cruelty. By the way, can I just say one thing? This is kind of funny. I'll make this so quick. Once in a blue moon, I go on the blank check Reddit page. Normal place. I'm going to the bathroom. No, no, no. This is so quick. I don't care. All right. I'll just talk to the others. My man's about to take a number three. He's going to rub one out. Now, listen to this. I will occasionally... He's going to do the sexual act. He's going to perform the sex act with the toilet paper.

2:31:03I will occasionally go on Reddit and look up myself, of course, obviously, and look up myself on the blank check Reddit page. Yes. And this is the comment that's always made. Many fans on the subject. No, no, no, no, no, no. This is the comment made about me, Jordan Hoffman. An underrated guest. This is true. Now, that's an honor. But when will I be a rated guest? Why am I the... Jordan? Yeah.

2:31:28David Sims:I'm dubbing you now. Blink check's most rated guest. I would like to be rated. That is your title from here on out. I feel in life. This is my entire... Everything I do, whether it's going to work for a company that then closes two weeks later after I promoted on this podcast, whether it's performing the sex act with my wife, it's always like, hey, that was better than I expected. You know, and I'd like for once to be expected to be okay. Sims, we have dubbed Jordan Blank Check's most rated.

2:31:59Griffin Newman:You think I didn't hear that? You think that was quiet?

2:32:01David Sims:I heard that in Queens. I will say the way you come up often in the subreddit is like once a month, some user will make a post that's asking the question that people ask once a month like clockwork. What's the best episode? What's the worst episode? What's the funniest moment? Who's the best guest? What's the worst guest, right? These same things. And every time people do the what's the funniest moment, very often... Somebody will say... At the top of the list, and I'm quoting here, Jordan Hoffman screaming, your mother's cunt, and David Sims responding, we are in a place of work. No, it's Betty said that.

2:32:35David Sims:Oh, yes. I saw somebody... Back in the audio. One of the readers or Redditors, whatever the hell you call them, on New Year's Eve said, if you press play now on that episode, I will shout your mother's cunt at midnight. And you could then usher in the new year on your mother's cunt. And what better way? Thank you for being here, Jordan. Thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate and review and subscribe. I feel like I said this and then I got this rail. Now I'm resetting. Tune in next week for Intolerable Cruelty. Yes. And as always, I just want to end with the mirror of the quote I started the episode with because I started with Billy Bob paraphrasing Shalhoub.

2:33:16David Sims:My friend calls masturbating a number

2:33:18Griffin Newman:three, by the way.

2:33:19David Sims:That was the joke we made when you were in the bathroom. While you were doing it. We said you did the sex act with the toilet paper. Frances McDormand getting her legs shaved. I think she'd be nice to be married to. Sure, yeah. The Shalhoub quote, which I do think is as much as an answer to this movie as the movie gives, is the more you look, the less you really know. It's a fact, a true fact, in a way, it's the only fact there is. Your mother's content. Oh, my God. Salacious B. Crumb.

2:33:55Griffin Newman:Blank Check with Griffin and David is hosted by Griffin Newman and David Sims. Our executive producer is me, Ben Hosley. Our creative producer is Marie Barty Salinas. And our associate producer is AJ McKeon. This show is mixed and edited by AJ McKeon and Alan Smithy Research by J.J. Birch Our theme song is by Lane Montgomery in the Great American Novel With additional music by Alex Mitchell Artwork by Joe Bowen, Ollie Moss, and Pat Reynolds Our production assistant is Minnick Special thanks to David Cho, Jordan Fish, and Nate Patterson for their production help Head over to BlankCheckPod.com for links to all of the real nerdy shit Join our Patreon, Blank Check Special Features for exclusive franchise commentaries and bonus episodes.

2:34:40Griffin Newman:Follow us on social at BlankCheckPod. Subscribe to our weekly newsletter, Checkbook, on Substack. This podcast is created and produced. Hello.

2:34:49David Sims:Look what TJ Maxx dragged in.

2:34:52Griffin Newman:The Devil Wears Prada 2 is now streaming on Disney Plus and Hulu.

2:34:56David Sims:We are digital. We are downloadable. We are streamable. The fashion event of the year is certified fresh. Pull yourself together. We have work to do. Critics say it's smart and witty and the perfect sequel. That's all. Get runway ready for The Devil Wears Prada 2 on Disney Plus and Hulu. Rated PG-13.

2:35:18Griffin Newman:Produced by Blank Check Productions.