The Year of Living Dangerously with Tracy Letts

11:31Griffin Newman:Because you'd had a good, really good year. It was a good year. You'd been in a lot of stuff. That's when you're in like, Christine and like Wiener Dog and The Lovers. I don't know. It was like a very, very sort of exciting. It's when you meet Hitmaker and he gives you the secrets.

11:45David Sims:He's like, here's how you make a hit. Wait, when did he meet? When did they work on? Christine.

11:49Griffin Newman:Christine, right, right, right. Yeah. Yeah, of course.

11:52David Sims:And he was like, the women have to be little and it will go over$100 million. And you run to Greta Gerwig. I'm holding the hot hand. Tracy Letts is here in the studio. Thank you very much for having me on the blank check. Now, you're saying that you've never seen Master and Commander before. I was happy that this is the series that you came on for. It is one of our great joys in life for David and I. When we pick a new director, we put them on the schedule, we immediately crack our knuckles, pull up Blu-ray.com, and go, what do I already have? And what are the holes I have to fill? And then what's the best addition?

12:28David Sims:And it used to be, oh, no domestic release of this. Too bad, I'm not going to have it. I've started being a no matter what, by any means possible, I'm getting all of them. and this is this is a varied stack here we got Les Voix-Tour où on mange Paris right this is a French copy of the cars that ate Paris uh who's who's even the distributor here Esque Editions yeah BFI about to reissue this in 4k yeah got this fucking Mondo Second Sight Picnic at Hanging Rock I got that that's very nice it's a good box I just have the criterion of that that only has the director's cut and it says theatrical plus the book you get it's kind of like a better audition.

13:08David Sims:Yeah, I got them both. I tried to convince, I used this specifically to try to convince Amanda that physical media isn't ugly. I was trying to combat your I live in a GameStop thing by being like, but look, this is nice. No, there are nice ones.

13:21Griffin Newman:There are nice ones. But sometimes, aren't you a little skeptical of the really nice ones? Sure. I mean, I have giant boxes of movies that... For like freaking Congo. I mean, maybe Congo is rude because I know. The boxes are great, but then you're like, inside is William Friedkin's, you know, Jade,

13:37David Sims:like, which is a movie I like, but doesn't belong in this finery. I just bought the umbrella 4K of the live action Super Mario Brothers, which I think is$100 and contains more literature than like the Encyclopedia Britannica. A film that...

13:50Griffin Newman:It has four separate books. A film that I enjoy, but like that most people involved with are like a stain on my reputation. It is objectively dog shit.

13:57David Sims:And I want to be clear, I love that film. It is objectively dog shit. Very enjoyable. And it comes with a book that includes two different scripts, two rejected... scripts for that movie. And that's one of only three books included in that box. Last wave from the aforementioned Umbrella of the Fine Folks. Yep, I got that. We got Gallipoli has just a Paramount, a pretty basic blue that only came out recently. I'm glad they finally put it out. I've got Gallipoli, but I'm going to look at my phone. Okay, I wonder if I'm wrong in this just a reissue.

14:27Griffin Newman:What do you use here?

14:27David Sims:This has a 2023 copyright.

14:29Griffin Newman:I use something called CLZ. I use that too. There you go. Very fond of that. Let's see. Gallipoli. How do we spell that?

14:37David Sims:G-A-L-L-I-P. Yeah, that's what I got. Yeah. From a place you've never heard of comes a story you'll never forget. We both agreed in this episode, kind of a rude tagline. Yeah, a bit. But then I saw you on your letterbox log where people were getting excited. Oh, fuck, is Tracy Letts doing Year of Living Dangerously? I'm sorry. I didn't realize when I logged it. That's the fun of the sport. Oh, no, no. It's good. It's good. We like that. But you were posting in anger. Yeah. That you had to watch it on YouTube Premium because it was the only better option than the DVD you had. The DVD? I actually played them side by side.

15:17David Sims:You're aware of this? What is that? This is a Spanish Blu-ray. I've been a little suspicious that it's a bootleg, but it seems like it's not. Have you watched it? Yeah. It looks okay. Well, there's the whole thing where - I would not say it is reference quality. it looks like probably YouTube Premium just on a disc why isn't this movie why do I have a fucking box for Congo on my shelf and not the year of living danger this is Underground Pictures they put this out what's the copyright here for the disc release I'll figure it out I mean look yeah it's got this is 2014 I feel like often with these this is the only country in which any Blu-ray release of this movie has happened it was 12 years ago

16:01Griffin Newman:these MGM United Artists like you know that sort of tricky period for this right like the rights will get weird right that's always isn't that always the answer it's like no one can untangle sometimes

16:10David Sims:I also want to like we'll get into this but I wonder if there's a feeling of touchiness around this movie sure if we restore this too thoroughly and spotlight it too much are people going to get up in arms

16:20Griffin Newman:William Friedkin's Jane they're not touchy about Jade sorry

16:23David Sims:you know like there's other movies that get put out well that's a touchy movie that's a movie people touching each other the whole time where so is grabbing everyone and I got the rest of I got the arrow witness I got the dead poets the basic Disney release screen card I don't own Dead Poets do you not like it? I I it's my least favorite weird film yeah I think mine too Fearless I think is a Warner Archive Truman basic Paramount 4K Master and Commander got the Steelbook but I assume you don't have that yet I have it I just haven't watched it interesting and then Wayback's an image release I have that as well yeah I don't think I've seen the Wayback do you like Brit shit?

16:59Griffin Newman:you know what I mean? like so like did Master and Commander kind of pass you by just because it was like sort of a big blockbuster at the time and you were like, eh. How did it pass you by, I wonder? Based on those books, right? I have no... I've never had any relationship to those books. I don't go out to see a movie just because Russell Crowe's in it. I don't not see a movie because Russell Crowe's in it. Sure, sure. He's not an automatic guy. Do you go out to see? What about the sea? You know, the shining sea. Is this the Midwesterner in you? You're like, oceans. they're thousands of miles away.

17:35I have no good reason for not having seen Master and Commander. Maybe I'll go home and watch it tonight. So it's the best. It's so good.

17:42David Sims:It's one of David's favorite movies. I have not rewatched it since I saw it in theaters. We have not done that episode yet. Can you say what your favorite where is?

17:50Griffin Newman:That one is certainly my favorite.

17:51David Sims:Yeah. My favorite is...

17:53Griffin Newman:But I love a lot of his films.

17:54David Sims:Huh.

17:55Griffin Newman:Yeah, what's your number one, bud?

17:57David Sims:Is it Truman Show? That might be. That feels kind of lame. But it feels like that might be my answer. What's your favorite? Is it this? It's Year of Living Dangerous. Yes, right.

18:07Griffin Newman:I mean, we talked to you when we were planning this series being like, Peter Weir, does he spark interest? And Year of Living Dangerously was your, you know, I believe you said

18:15David Sims:it's one of my 50 favorite movies of all time. You know, I made a list recently of my favorite movies. It was going to be my top 100 list. And it turned out to be about 160 something on my list. Is it ranked or is it? Not ranked. Okay, just what's in the pot? Chronological order. and yeah, Year of Living Dangerously is on that list. So it's basically at this point, it's like this is the canon. These are the movies. You were just sort of going through everything you've seen being like,

18:40Griffin Newman:these are my favorites. These are the things I will watch again

18:43David Sims:that I know and love. Now, you might have sensed, David and I both trying to sniff out some of your movie blind spots, right? What don't you like as much? What haven't you seen and for what reasons? It's because we came into this loaded with a challenge. Ben, producer Ben, who is not a physical media guy. I've gifted him a couple discs over the year, but this is not his beat. When we lock down a day and a time to record. Well, I guess I should say I have vinyl. I have a big vinyl collection. I love music. But as far as, yeah, movies, I only really have a handful. And he says, you know, it would be fun if we tried to gift Tracy with a disc that he doesn't already have.

19:26David Sims:And I said, Ben, you don't understand the scale of the challenge you just proposed. That's impossible. And then the more we got into talking to him about how hard that would be, the more we were like, wait a second, you should try. You should try, Ben. You should see if you can pick out a movie he hasn't seen and or placed in his collection. and then he bought three and it sparked a competition in David and I and we have also each bought three movies for you wow and this is the Tracy Let's Challenge there are nine discs that are about to be presented oh fantastic and we want to know are any of these not already in the collection oh great Ben I feel like you should go first since you spurred this whole thing so I want to shout out

20:15Griffin Newman:we went to Night Owl Video you ever been there to Williamsburg great place lovely little place Nice.

20:21David Sims:It's about a year old. It's finally bringing physical media stores back to New York City.

20:25Griffin Newman:Shout out to Night Oliver. Yeah. They got a very nice used collection, very, you know, and all the new stuff, obviously. And their motto is death to streamers, physical media forever. So they're definitely going for it.

20:36David Sims:I was trying to give Ben some help in strategizing. He also went with our friend Ben David Grabinski, past and future guest, who was sort of guiding Ben through the understanding of certain labels have subscription programs. Tracy might be pre-buying a full year. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah, he had mentioned your subscriber to Vinegar Syndrome. So I avoided those releases. And we're looking for, you want rigorous honesty. Rigorous honesty. Complete honesty. Absolutely. Because you have about what? 20 ,000? No. How many?

21:06Griffin Newman:No, that's crazy. 11 ,000 plus. Still a lot. But I appreciate you throwing out the number 20 ,000. It makes it seem reasonable. 20 ,000 were sort of starting to approach like the amount of movies that might exist. This is why the challenge is fun. Right. But you buy a lot of stuff and kind of are like, I'll get to it or I have a completionist surge or whatever. I've seen perhaps 30 % of the movies on my show. Because I'm currently in this project of like, I got to fucking watch everything I own on disc that I've either never seen or do not remember. How many discs do you have? I have over a thousand, I think.

21:41I'm nothing like you, but I have a lot.

21:43Griffin Newman:I think I'm similar now. And my wife is, it goes in one room. and so it's a little mysterious what's going on, I think, to her. But then she'll glimpse like, what's... And I'm like, no, no, no. And you live in Brooklyn? I live in Brooklyn. So your space is somewhat... You have some... Somewhat limited. There's going to have to be... I'm going to need... There's some shelving conversations I'm going to need to have soon. Some choices that need to be made. See, we bought this house and it had a basement that looked like a Marriott ballroom. And it's just like, oh, well, this is where we can put everything.

22:12I mean, I'm very jealous.

22:13David Sims:Tracy, I need you to know that I now often repeat the phrase, all I want is the type of success where I can have a Tracy Letts basement. It has become basically the driving force of any professional ambitions I have is if I can just get a Tracy Letts basement. Imagine having a home where there was space for all of my sickness is the way I think about that. And you can pass your sickness on to your family members. Well, that's the real thing. Yeah. All right. Well, and so I want to preface as well. as far as curation, you saw my porch. Yeah. So just keep that in mind as like a kind of lens. These are kind of three porch movies.

22:55If this helps you understand

22:56David Sims:the kind of subgenre of porch movies. So of course, first here I have a limited edition steelbook of Ace Ventura Pet Detective. I do not own this film. You do not own this film. Have you seen it before? I don't think so. Wow. Wow. You're in store for a good time. Oh, great. How do you feel about James Carey? funny funny well then he probably will at least get a couple laughs at Ace Ventura I mean obviously not so funny that I've ever sought out Ace Ventura which I think would be one of the touchstone films in his it's his launch pad obviously I will say this was part of my strategy was thinking the 90s might have been the era where you were dismissing certain commercial films definitely definitely it started in the 80s but certainly extended well into the 90s.

23:47We'll get more into the 80s, 90s discussion. Great. I will say that I just worked with Peter Farrelly. I shot a movie with him called I Play Rocky, which is coming out later this year. And at one point, I got a note from him to take it down. And I said, wow, the director of Dumb and Dumber just told me I was a little too broad. That's incredible. In a movie about making Rocky. Who do you play in I Play Rocky? I play a fictional bad guy you'll never make this movie

24:20Griffin Newman:boxing movies don't amount to shit I'll tell you Rocky will never win best picture you might have actually quoted a few of my lines do you like to get that call because like Ford vs Ferrari great movie and you're very very good in it but like it's like oh fun racing well no no you're the guy who shits on everyone in the office I think this movie sucks I wish this movie weren't happening

24:39David Sims:but then what's great about Ford vs Ferrari is you get the scene of the emotional breakdown. You do get it. The best version of that character. I turn down a lot of those things unless it's got that extra thing in it that I go, oh, this is good. I want to do that extra thing. And so I Play Rocky has that.

24:58Griffin Newman:No, I'm excited for I Play Rocky. I am a sucker for that kind of movie. I like Sam.

25:02David Sims:Early word is good.

25:04Griffin Newman:I'm excited about it.

25:04David Sims:Do you know that the young actor playing Sylvester Stallone in the movie is the same young actor who played Al Pacino in The Offer one of my obsessions of the last decade. I have not seen it, but he's very good. I almost bought you the offer on DVD and then I was like, it's TV and it's DVD. This is offensive. This is rude. But the offer is one of the more bizarre things ever made. Thank you for the Ace Ventura. I will gladly accept it. Ben is one of one right now. One out of one. And so I should mention, that was a shout release. Next we have, this is Arrow Video. It is a 4K of Spawn. I do not own that.

25:40Wow.

25:41Griffin Newman:That doesn't shock me at all. Have you ever seen Spawn? I have not. Mark A.Z. DePay's Spawn. Are you familiar with the character? Is he a vampire or a vampire hunter? Oh, Casey. He's from hell. More demonic. Hellspawn. Yeah. He's a former soldier. Like a wetworks guy? Yeah. He dies. He goes to hell and Satan is sort of like, I'll let you go back to Earth, but you do have to be kind of like a hellish superhero. Was he originally

26:07David Sims:a comic book? Yeah, it's a comic book. Todd McFarlane, T-Dog Mac. 90s, very 90s. A lot of chains. And who directed the film? Mark A.Z. DePay, who's a legendary special effects artist. He's widely credited as being one of the two guys who really cracked CGI for Jurassic Park. And they were like, well, that means you should make a whole movie. And he did this, and I believe he never directed a live action film ever again. He directs direct-to-video Garfield sequels now. Yeah. Ben, you're two for two, man. Wow. I'm thrilled. By the way, this has theatrical and director's cut on it. I recommend directors.

26:42David Sims:Thank you. I appreciate it. And there's some really great special effects. And that's all I'm going to say. Okay. Roger Ebert gave this movie three stars.

26:51Griffin Newman:And then here, lastly, we have Trash Humpers by Harmony Current. I do not own Trash Humpers. Wow. I knew that was going to be okay. I was, I believe.

27:01David Sims:That was the one that was borderline. Harmony Current doesn't feel like quite your taste zone, but I also... I've got a couple of Harmony Current on the shelf. This was the thing. So I'm glad to have Trash Humpers on disc. Hell yeah. Yeah, I'm a big fan of his work. And I just, I can't believe three for three. Well done, man. Incredible. Well done. David, would you like to go next?

27:20Griffin Newman:Sure, why not? All right. Okay, first off, this is the most obvious one. You might have this one. This is Arrow's, yes, 4K release of Dominic Senna's film Swordfish. He's checking his database here. He's checking the app. Which is what I thought. I doubt you've seen Swordfish. I have seen it. All right, you've seen it. Okay, so I was wrong. But one of those where I was like, did you buy it just because there's a nice new addition out of A Sense of Completionism? I do not own. Okay. Hugh Jackman, Halle Berry, of course, John Travolta. Don Cheadle. Don Cheadle. A role that you would play now in this movie where it made today is Sam Shepard's role as the U.S.

27:59Griffin Newman:senator who's sort of like, stop. Yay, Travolta. You got to cut out your whatever it is. I don't like these computers. Right? and Travolta's like oh that's interesting and shoots him to death in like Utah or some you know some extravagant location just to make sure I'm thinking of the right film Halle Berry nude scene correct very famously they they leaked this oh a terrible leak came out from the studio oh she's filming a nude scene an extra scene has leaked oh who could have spilled this info there was also a moment clearly someone sent them a long range tracking report and they were like Can we leak the...

28:36Griffin Newman:Can we pay Halle Berry another million dollars?

28:39David Sims:There's a moment in the trailer of her undressing, and I remember being surrounded by teenage boys, being a teenage boy at the time, people being like, I hear she keeps taking clothes off. Like, it was... The buzz was really strong.

28:50Griffin Newman:It's a scene in the film, her nude scene, that I would say doesn't feel entirely dramatically essential to that.

28:56David Sims:But she's sunbathing, and then she just drops the cover, shows her breasts clear for about 60 seconds, and then she puts it back up.

29:03Griffin Newman:The nude scene is what it's sort of known for. I think this is a crazy text. This is a bizarre... When Hollywood was sort of like, we should be doing cyberpunk Tarantino movies. And then one year later, they were like, enough of that. We got to stop. Who directed this? Dominic Senna, who also made Gone in 60 Seconds remake. He did... He was a Fincher guy. He was one of the Fincher staples. I always get Senna

29:27David Sims:and Simon West confused. Right. Well, they were both Fincher guys. They're both, yeah.

29:31Griffin Newman:He did that kind of nasty Brad Pitt movie, California, if you remember that like a serial killer movie yep he was you know all sizzle no say medium medium to small stage

29:43David Sims:you guys are four for four alright alright let's see what I think oh he did Season of the Witch which I love have you ever seen Season of the Witch I have great movie one of our finest alright

29:51Griffin Newman:next up this is a strange one this is DVD use DVD wow wow wow wow Scott Alexander and Larry Karaszewski screwed let's check in the database now this is Griffin yep an exceptionally strange movie. I agree with that. Yes. I believe it has never been released on high death. Done on it. Wow.

30:09David Sims:Done on it. Have you ever seen it?

30:11Griffin Newman:No. It looks light to medium use here. We've got some crinkling on this. I'm sorry to give you this.

30:16David Sims:It is an odd kind of blank check movie because they'd had such success as screenwriters that people went, we should let these guys make a whole film. And it was trying to launch arguably three comedy stars

30:26Griffin Newman:at the same time. Well, it's trying to launch. It's sort of trying with Norm again. Norm MacDonald around the dirty work era, right? like our little after.

30:34David Sims:I think it's almost contemporaneous.

30:36Griffin Newman:And then Dave Chappelle. It's sort of half-baked era Dave Chappelle. I mean, who's the third?

30:42David Sims:I was arguing Sarah Silverman.

30:43Griffin Newman:Yeah, yeah, sure. Sure, she's in there. But Larry doesn't disown this movie, right? I mean, Larry, he's fond of... I think they're both... It was one of those movies that you had no idea how to market. It has one of the weirdest trailers. They clearly just have no idea what to tell you about this movie. It is so odd. Because it's quite odd and kind of vulgar.

31:02David Sims:I was going to say it's in this category I would classify as like big budget studio versions of John Waters material. You know, and I think it's a little post like something about Mary. People want gross out. It is very dark. It's very odd. Oh, thanks. Five for five. DeVito is great in it.

31:22Griffin Newman:Doing great. Finally, crank high voltage. I have not seen crank high voltage. Have you seen crank? I haven't seen crank. I've actually been on a bit of a Statham tear recently. Wow, and you hadn't gotten to it yet. I've not gotten to it yet. Both vital. I'm sorry that I went for high voltage here because the completionist in you now means you'll probably end up buying Crank as well. This is the sequel, Crank High Voltage. Is Joan Allen in one of these movies? Joan Allen is in Death Race. She's in the Death Race movie.

31:51David Sims:A movie I really fight for. She plays the... No, I was going to say she plays the Tracy Letts I Don't Want You Doing Death Race. It is the opposite. She is the evil prison warden. Right. And she's like, you motherfuckers, better death race. And there's a bit in that movie that I love where Joan Allen goes on like a 30-second terror and says every American curse word six times. Nice. Because she's angry at how Statham is breaking her system. For a while, my treadmill watches were TV shows, keeping up with the TV shows. But it just became too painful. And so what I've been doing.

32:26Griffin Newman:Because you're going to fall asleep watching these shows in 10 episodes before they do any plot. Right. It wasn't an enticement to get back on the treadmill. So I've been catching up on a lot of action. Like trashy action. For a 90s, 2000s action. Like I've watched the Equalizer series. I saw you log that. Yeah. Extremely good. Tracy, I had considered buying you

32:47David Sims:the Equalizer trilogy. So I did some cross-referencing. We were just talking about those movies. I love them so much.

32:52Griffin Newman:They make me so happy. Just to pitch you on Crank. Crank, the first Crank, the idea is it's speed but with his heart so he has to keep his heart rate above his heart in Crank Heart Voltage I believe he's been given an artificial heart so he has to literally like grab onto like use electricity electric cords and bite them to just

33:09David Sims:wait really yeah the first crack ends with him dying right and it was enough of a hit that justified the sequel well what if they put an electric heart in him but it resulted in one of the greatest taglines of all time which is which is he was dead but he got a lot better yeah he got better Mr. Statham never made a movie that he couldn't find his way to make a sequel to. Absolutely right.

33:30Griffin Newman:That's so true. All doors are open in the world of Jason Statham. I like this era of his better, which was more martial artsy, versus this new one where it's like, he's a gentle gardener, but he used to. And then some nice old lady dies and he has to go kill Hillary Clinton or whatever. Yes, but Beekeeper is incredible.

33:47David Sims:Have you seen Beekeeper? I have seen Beekeeper. Beekeeper is just so insane in the world it establishes.

33:53Griffin Newman:I forget which crank it is. One of the cranks has one of my favorite gags, which is Japanese guys talking to him and you see the subtitles and Statham is so out of it that you then cut to a reverse of Statham looking at the subtitles. The shot is reversed going like, huh?

34:07David Sims:Neveldine and Taylor. I got 3 for 3 too. 6 for 6. I took a very specific strategy. I feel like the 90s are the zone where you were maybe not keeping up as omnivorously with all of commercial cinema. I think that's true. And B, also, you talk about on your physical media episode, so big picture, the things you were watching with your children. And I was sort of trying to triangulate your children's tastes, where things are going. And I'm like, are there movies that I grew up with that you would not have seen at the time, but that might be good to introduce your children to? I like. They can come grift stamped.

34:44David Sims:I'm disagreeing with you. They can also. All of this stuff. Maybe then it knocks these discs a little higher up on the watch list because there's a little bit of an activity here. Okay. Okay. So first of all, Joe Dante's 1998 picture, Small Soldiers. Have you seen it? I have not seen Small Soldiers. And I assume that means you don't own it? I do not own, nor have I seen Joe Dante. I didn't even know it was a Joe Dante movie. You're making a Sherman-esque statement. Tracy, that's exactly what I was betting on. Because I went, I bet Tracy has respect for Joe Dante. Sure. But he lost track of the last couple.

35:16David Sims:I did. I did not know that was his film. This is an incredible film about the military-industrial complex. about the corporatization of America. Is that a person on the cover? No, so it is about a tech company, a military tech company that buys a toy company and their endless sort of gobbling up conglomeration of everything and decide to try to make, this film's very relevant now, basically AI toys. What if G.I. Joe's could actually do shit and they put military microchips in them and they start literally waging war on our backyard counter-stacks? But are there people in the film? Yes, there are.

35:53David Sims:It's not an animated film. It's a live-action film. This is Major Chip Hazard, who is the main villain toy, voiced by Tommy Lee Jones, and Frank Langella, Archer, leader of the Gorgonites. But this film stars Kirsten Dunst, Gregory Smith. Great Kevin Dunn. Phil Hartman's final film performance, Dennis Leary, David Cross, Anne Magnusson. It's got a really good cast. Jay Moore, of course. It was that era where we were trying to make that happen. but it's a wonderful film. I think it's a razor sharp satire. You guys are... It's very funny. You guys are killing it. Big action. I'm going to show that to my son.

36:29David Sims:Yeah, I think he will like it. It's got... It's not a... I know he's very into kaiju film. I know it is not a kaiju film. These are small, not big. There's a similar... Yeah. Energy of chaos. Creature feature-y kind of... The first question is always, is there a creature in it? It is mostly very small animatronic puppets. you know, of monsters fighting army men. Got it. And humans being like, the fuck is going on? One of the best films of 1998. Similarly, this comes from, this was DreamWorks. When DreamWorks was launching and Spielberg was like, we need a family slate. We need Amblin-esque pictures.

37:06David Sims:And he greenlit odd versions of Amblin-esque pictures that didn't quite perform as well as they should have at the time. Gore Verbinski's Mouse Hunt, his first film. I do not own Mouse Hunt, nor have I ever seen it. Wow, you'll like that. This is quietly one of the best film craft films of the 90s. If this movie came out tomorrow, best cinematography, best art direction, best sound, best editing. People would be like, nothing has looked this good since the 50s. Who directed Mouse Hunt? Gore Verbinski. Oh, you just said that. It is his first film. It is him cashing in the heat of directing the Budweiser frog commercials.

37:43David Sims:And it's a script that's just, these two guys are trying to catch a mouse. and he's like, what if it has the aesthetics of delicatessen? He built an insane house. He insisted on doing almost all of it with real mice. They had like 60 mice who they trained as actors. It's Nathan Lane and Lee Evans. Lee Evans. But it's also, it's Christopher Walken's in it, Maury Shakin's in it. Sure, sure. It's William Hickey's last performance ever. Oh, yeah. Wonderful film. Saw it recently at Filmform. It's a beautiful 4K. I tell you what. This is reference quality. If you score this last one nine for nine. This is my biggest swing because this is more recent, but I had a feeling that you just kind of opted out on this whole series.

38:24David Sims:This is, I picked, it's an excellent adventure picture. It's a family story done in a style, I'd say almost heightened to melodrama with the broad kind of allegorical storytelling of your biblical epics of yore. It is called Avatar, The Way of Water. I've never seen Avatar The Way of Water. Did you blind buy it? I did not blind buy it. I do not own it. Nine fresh discs. Now, did you see the first one?

38:55Griffin Newman:Did you see the first one? I've never seen one of the Avatar. This is my guess.

38:58David Sims:That you just went, not my thing, right? I've not. Yeah, I haven't seen it. This is a rip-roaring adventure about how we have lost touch with nature. So now I have to go buy the first one. This is the problem. We're making homework for you here, buying these sequels. It's a boy and a whale. The mighty Piakon, who you will be thrilled to meet. How long is that movie? Let's not talk about runtime. What is a runtime? Well, just in terms of showing it to my son. Your son will be into it, I would imagine. Your son will be into it. It might be split over a couple nights. It's 192 minutes long. 192 fucking minutes.

39:36Griffin Newman:It's longer than Lawrence of Arabia. It's similar to Lawrence of Arabia. It might be longer than Lawrence of Arabia. Has your son seen Lawrence of Arabia? That is not. Actually, you know what? Lawrence of Ruby is longer. Lawrence of Ruby is almost four hours long. Is it really? Yeah, it's really, really long.

39:49David Sims:It's four discs. So after you watch the movie, you can go into the making of. You know, recently, Sean and Amanda on the Big Picture podcast, we're talking about how even if you're not into it, it's undeniable that the specialness of the special effects are in fact kind of jaw-dropping and beyond what you're accustomed to seeing when you watch a lot of AI slop. I would agree. Or CGI slop. It is very much, yes. It stands in opposition to that. And we agree that it is the best of the three.

40:26Griffin Newman:Yes, absolutely.

40:27David Sims:Really? Yes. I think the sequel is the best. I do think you could watch it cold. It does a pretty good job of table setting at the beginning of the film. And there's such a big time jump between the first and the second that there is a bit of a clean entry point. Now, I have to say, you guys have done absolutely beautiful work in collecting these nine discs. I'm really impressed and I'm really happy to have them in my collection. And I'm happy to give all of them a spin. All of them. Does anybody listening to this give a shit about what we're talking about? Yeah.

41:03Griffin Newman:Oh, very deeply. Are you kidding me? Oh, yeah. You go on Sean's podcast, which is bigger than this podcast. and you guys, you know, speak at length on these matters. I always assume that those episodes are just very niche, that there's just a very, there's a small but dedicated number of people. But this is a growing area of interest for people, I feel like. I do feel like there's this general person, you know, like there's just feeling amongst film fans of like, it's just not good out there anymore. It's bad and we need to take a stand and we need to do something. Right, it's so annoying sifting through these streaming services.

41:37Griffin Newman:It's so annoying kind of like trying to find the best version of it, you know, and like it's so satisfying to own something. I don't know. I don't know. I can just hear a lot of pissed off film guys going, what do you mean he's never seen Ace Ventura? What? Who is this asshole? This is the balance of these things. I gotta relax.

41:51David Sims:People gotta come to blank check and understand this is the flow. This is the natural order. Have you ever had anybody on this show older than me? Yes. Your father. My father. Are you willing to say your age on mic? 60. Yeah. My father has been only on Patreon, but he is 73 now. He's 73. I believe Clint McElroy. Oh, sure. Amy Irving. Amy Irving. The great Amy Irving. She was only on Patreon though. Colin Quinn, I believe. Do you know? I think Colin Quinn is older than you.

42:23Griffin Newman:I would think.

42:24David Sims:I think so.

42:24Griffin Newman:Colin Quinn is six years older than you. Yeah. There you go.

42:27David Sims:You're rubbing in his face next time. So unfortunately, you don't get, you get to retain the crown as king of physical media. Let me tell you a few people who are older than me. I'll surprise you. Yeah. we do there's one last disc reveal oh yeah the remainder of the bag you mentioned of course your physical media episodes on the big picture which started out as just you and Sean and then grew to include Chris Ryan and Tim Hitmaker Simons as well there was one person who has been desperately trying to make his way onto the physical media high council well I'll read this note he left Mr. Letts please accept this meager offering of physical media.

43:09Sorry, it's hard to read his handwriting. It's really chicken scratch here. Representing some of my movies, only to our reference quality. It's less about hoping you watch and enjoy and more the honor of contributing my work to the definitive archive. Alex Ross Perry. Oh, Alex Ross Perry. How lovely. And what did he send? He gave you three of his films, which is Her Smell, Pavements, and Listen Up, Philip. Yes. I own Listen Up, Philip. You own Listen Up, Philip?

43:41David Sims:This same, the Eureka edition? Yes. Wow. I own that. But I'll take it. Wow. I mean, this is like an epic L for Arp that we went fucking nine for nine and Arp gets up to bat and immediately you fucking imported one of his movies. I haven't watched it. I should watch it. It's next to the film. I think you'd like it. Incredible Jonathan Price performance.

44:01Griffin Newman:Yeah. Yeah. Price is incredible in it. I don't know if you, another, you know, theater legend in his own right who also did Yellow Face, which I was going to say is important to our discussion today over the year of Dangerously.

44:23David!

44:24David Sims:Yes? This episode is brought to you by Moo B.

44:29Griffin Newman:Moo B! Oh, the global film company The Champion's Great Cinema. Oh! The global film company. The champion's great cinema. Iconic directors. Emerging auteur is always something new to discover. Movies, films are hand-selected. You can explore the best of cinema. Give me one example. No, they have a new movie that's streaming on the movie in the U.S. It's Father, Mother, Sister, Brother. It's the Jim Jarmusch movie from last year. The one, The Golden Lion. This is a film from Venice.

44:57David Sims:That regretfully, you and I both didn't get a chance to catch up with.

45:03Griffin Newman:But now I will be able to enjoy this funny, tender, and gently moving exploration of the universal intricacies of family dynamics. Tom Waits, Adam Driver, Mayim Bialik, Charlotte Rampling. Why are you listening? Cate Blanchett, Vicky Creeps. All the people who were invited to Ben's birthday party. It's a triptych, right? There's a New Jersey section, a Dublin section, a Paris section. Obviously, Jarmusch has done some such storytelling before, Night on Earth and such. coffee and cigarettes, Griffin? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

45:35David Sims:Okay. It's about the relationships between adult children. They're somewhat distant parent or parents and each other. I simply cannot relate. I know, right? Having a complicated relationship with your parents.

45:47Griffin Newman:So you can watch that and you can watch all the other great stuff they've got at Mubi. To stream the best of cinema, you can try Mubi free for 30 days at Mubi.com slash blank check. That's M-U-B-I.com slash blank check for a whole month of great cinema for free.

46:16By the way, the big picture has come up a couple of times here. They did a 1988 draft. I'm in the middle of listening to it as we speak. I was not invited. And I said to them, you know, I'm going on a blank check tomorrow. Right. And maybe if the blank check guys adopt me, you know, we're all New Yorkers. We're New York. Yeah, it's true. I was like, maybe, maybe, maybe I wind up jumping ship. Let me tell you, the text I got from Sean was pretty definitive.

46:48Griffin Newman:If you even think.

46:51David Sims:You fucking rat.

46:51Griffin Newman:For one fucking second. I was having a fun time listening to that. That's an interesting year, 88. and I really I respected Chris Chris's bind there Chris Ryan's binder of getting the number one pick where it's like you're on the big picture you know it's like you have to pick Die Hard that's sort of like the and he lost Midnight Run and I felt for him his Midnight Run you know well I sent them immediately upon conclusion I sent them a few movies they left off okay 1988 draft that I would have such as gladly well Thin Blue Line would be top of great definitive for me and it was just like how is this not, I mean.

47:27David Sims:Would be a beautiful use of a wildcard pick. Yeah. Did it get snubbed for Best Documentary?

47:32Griffin Newman:Yeah, of course. It was, he wasn't doing what that branch appreciated. You know, like he was doing something new. So he was, they never liked him. So you'd have to take it in wildcard. I think, did he eventually win for Fog of War? Like, I feel like they eventually

47:44David Sims:gave Errol Morris an Oscar. And then he also did the fucking, the stuff for the Oscars.

47:49Griffin Newman:He did. Those were fun. Yeah, he won for Fog of War though. That's his only ever Oscar nomination. Like they were, you know, They were always kind of like too snooty for him.

47:56David Sims:It's just one of the most incredible lasting cultural artifacts is from Errol Morris doing those, that Oscar intro one year where he interviewed people about their favorite movies. We have the clip of Donald Trump looking into the Interrotron, is that what he calls? Interrotron, yeah. Right. And talking about why he loves Citizen Kane and misreading it confidently. Right. It's a movie about a guy who gets everything. He died happy in a big house. I think he literally says it's a movie about a guy who gets everything. That reminds me, I was at some party in Los Angeles and David Zasloff, I was with Carrie and some of the other Gilded Age people.

48:36Griffin Newman:And of course, Carrie's in the HBO family, of course. The queen of the HBO family. She's on Gilded Age and Zasloff came up and he was so excited to see them. And we came to realize after a while, I was like, oh, the robber barons are his heroes. Of course. I love how you're ramming that railroad right across America. Yep. I God my favorite thing in the Gilded Age is anytime Morgan Spector's character is just like I feel like I need to go you know kill 10 ,000 railroad guys just to just to get my rocks off you know just really gotta like go fight with J.P. Morgan about something I love the Gilded Age where Gilded Age is number one kind of show for me where I can Google after and like and learn about the David just said this

49:20David Sims:in our way back episode with with Alex Ross Perry coming in many weeks. Have you seen Peter Weir's

49:24Griffin Newman:The Way Back? One of his least seen films, his final film, the film about escapees from the gulag who trekked across the Gobi Desert all the way to India. I remember my mom watching it and saying, this is really good. How come I didn't see this fucking movie? It was completely ignored on release. It's a fairly handsome, like, you know, solid. It's not his best movie, but it's pretty good.

49:45David Sims:But David was saying he loves anything, any watch that can cause him to open up some Wikipedia tabs and start digging into... You know, afterwards, I'm like,

49:53Griffin Newman:so, Mongolian in the 50s, what was going on? Yeah, right.

49:56David Sims:You know, like stuff like that. I want to hear your other 1988 snubs. Let me consult my technology.

50:03Griffin Newman:I'm guessing Akira wasn't picked. I haven't finished the episode.

50:06David Sims:Akira was not picked.

50:07Griffin Newman:I'm trying to think of like definitive 88 movies that probably are too niche or whatever.

50:10David Sims:They keep complaining about how bad the sequel slate is. It was very bad. And in fact, Amanda asked me specifically what my pick would have been. It's really bad. I suggested Lady Terminator, which is not actually canon. Right. That one's not canon? You have Halloween 4, Hellraiser 2, Nightmare 4, but I'm just immediately here. It's not great. Even with Thriller open, no one picked Child's Play and no one picked Dead Ringers? Dead Ringers was definitely on my list. I think they mentioned it in their honorable mentions, but not good enough. Another Woman, the Woody Allen movie, Another Woman, which, you know...

50:48That would have been a surprising pick. It would have been, but because I'd listened to the New York draft. Well, we had to dance between the raindrops on that one. Didn't pick Woody Allen? Did nobody pick Woody Allen? No one picked Woody Allen. I want to make it clear. Woody Allen's name was never said in the New York movie draft. We were in front of a live audience.

51:06David Sims:We were in front of a live audience. Backstage, there wasn't like a blood pact. Like we all agree no one's going to utter his name. It did not happen. No, no. I think if we were not in front of a crowd.

51:17Griffin Newman:I don't know, though. Who knows? because the whole populist agenda of the drafts of like you're supposedly trying to win the audience's favor i certainly thought i see right the other thing i will say the other thing with woody allen in a new york movie draft is it's like okay well so do you figure manhattan is the pick there there's other definitive new york movies well you know almost all like

51:38David Sims:like what's the new york right it's more the canon than the idea if he has one film that feels most representational of new york other than the one that's named after a borough and has a poster on the bridge.

51:49Griffin Newman:And has some great fucking photography of Manhattan. And some really good relationships. What's the New York movie? Well, I would probably pick Manhattan, but certainly if somebody picks Annie Hall in comedy or Hannah and her sisters in comedy. These are not shocking. No, you're not wrong.

52:05David Sims:Hannah and her sisters. The Bear, 1988. I've never seen The Bear. Jean-Jacques Renaud. Yeah, the bear. Bart the Bear, the great bear actor. It's a great, yes, Bart the Bear plays the bear. It's a nature film shot really from the bear's perspective. It's very good.

52:23Griffin Newman:I have never seen. He was a good director. And that is a genre of movie that doesn't exist anymore. The sort of gentle, nature-focused, plot light. It's not that gentle. That's the good thing about the bear. Right, right. We've got some peril. Yeah, yeah. There's fucking in it. There's psychedelic drugs. Oh, yeah? Yeah. No, the bear's kind of a thing.

52:43David Sims:the animal drama doesn't exist anymore. On a tapestry from Black Stallion to The Bear, it used to just be once or twice a year. We took some fucking cameras. We went to the jungle. You're going to love it. And we're like, we think we got this animal to act. Never Cry Wolf. Do you guys know that movie? I've never seen it. I know it. It's a beautiful movie and there's no good physical media. That's Carol Ballard, right? That's the kind of king of what we're talking about. Terrific. I had my neighbor Totoro but then Sean informs me maybe that's not quite the right release date

53:16Griffin Newman:you can call it an 88 movie but to me that's one where it's like you can't go by the American date because that movie was never properly released in America

53:25David Sims:it got a fucking trauma release

53:27Griffin Newman:yeah right Hairspray Things Change David Mamet Joe Mantegna and Don Amici a very good gangster comedy limo right yeah yeah that's a very good movie and there's a good disc of that too i think it's a indicator has a nice disc of that cross and delancey did that come amanda fucking drafted the shit out of my comedy pick uh chicken and duck talk chicken and duck talk never heard of it looking it up okay looks like it's a a chinese film uh hong kong comedy yeah yeah michael hui Very funny. Don't know it. Chicken and duck talk.

54:10David Sims:Okay, I'll check it out. I was pretty astounded that Phenasy didn't pick Police Story 2. He mentioned it as, I considered it. I'm like, yeah, you should have considered it and then picked it. That's a good move. Mystic Pizza, did that get picked? Amanda chose Crossing Delancey over Mystic Pizza. This is really fun how we're re-litigating.

54:28Griffin Newman:I was going to kind of... And I will move off this right now, but my last... Clint Eastwood's Bird, I think one of his best movies, is an 88 film. That's an incredible film. They did not draft that. They did not. A little quick.

54:39David Sims:The one I want to ask you about, Tracy, because I feel like a couple times now, Big Picture has done sort of a drive-by of apathy towards this movie, and I like it quite a bit. Clean and Sober, the Michael Keaton film. I like it quite a bit, too. I think that's a very good film. I think I mentioned it actually on their podcast, on one of the physical media podcasts, because I was talking about the value of Warner Archive. Yes. Right, which puts out sort of standard issue releases. They're very clean. There's no extras to speak of. There's no giant boxes. It's just, here's the movie in a nice, clean presentation.

55:11And it might not have been kind of a big deal movie at the time, but I really like Clean and Sober. I think it's a very good movie. And as a person sober for a long, long time, I have to say Clean and Sober is one of the movies that gets it right, gets the psychology of that right.

55:25David Sims:I was on the Michael Keaton. You're a big Keaton fan. Michael Keaton's maybe my favorite living actor. But I was on the Michael Keaton Mount Rushmore.

55:35Griffin Newman:Yes.

55:36David Sims:It was kind of a bad episode.

55:39Griffin Newman:Like it was a fun episode with you guys talking about Keaton. But like the four big Keaton movies was actually fairly easy for you guys to arrive at.

55:45David Sims:The problem is it's easier and more interesting to pick eight to ten Keaton movies than it is four. Because the four are always going to be pretty chalk. But they were just like it was not in the conversation for them. And I went in there being like, clearly this is one of his key texts. Well, they get weird about some of that stuff. And I can say, in fact, to bring it back to Peter Weir, it comes up with Witness. You know, Amanda and I really love Witness. Amanda. I think it's a great movie. We will spoil. We'll be on the Witness episode next week. Sean gets. Amanda's going to be on the Witness episode.

56:16Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Fantastic. We recorded it. It's a corker. It's in the bag. Well, there you go. Yep. Sean gets a look on his face like his ass is sucking lemons. And he says, is it a great movie? Yes. And I go, now look, it depends on where, you know, it's all relative, right? We could say Seven Samurai and Bicycle Thieves are great movies. And these other movies aren't. But if you're going to live in a world where you're telling me that A Few Good Men and Pelican Brief are great movies, then goddamn right, Witness is a great movie. Yes, yes.

56:48David Sims:Witness is also definitively a great movie. I think that it is analogous to Kurosawa, where you're like, well, like making samurai movies in the Japanese film industry at that time was akin to doing like a programmer. And he was elevating it to such a high level. I'm not saying Witness is the seven samurai of cop movies, but I think there is a similar, okay, but what is the most thoughtful, intelligent, deliberate, nuanced, detailed, lived-in version of this? And it is what makes Peter Weir a blank check filmmaker, arguably, I would say, not in this film, where he had a little bit of a blank check in the Australian film industry up until this point.

57:31David Sims:this starts to transition him especially with Mel Gibson being a guy who had crossed over but then once he makes witness work at that level and here's just what should be a cop action movie drama that is now nominated for best picture best director gets Harrison Ford his only acting nomination it's like every A-list actor in Hollywood wants to work with this guy they want to bring their passion projects to him because he can lend integrity to them but that is the next chapter of his career that ends with the film we're talking about today. Well, I think he showed a particular skill at a kind of stranger in a strange land story, which seems to be a theme running through a lot of Peter Weir's work.

58:16Griffin Newman:Even something like Dead Poets Society, which is ostensibly an inspirational teacher. But Robin Williams is the stranger in a strange man there. Yeah. Dream card for sure. Yes.

58:27David Sims:I have, you know, continued to say this kind of quickly because I lack the knowledge and the intelligence to make this point more thoroughly, let alone the historical context. But especially watching his early Australian films, it feels very informed by a man who has spent a lifetime trying to reckon with his relationship to the country he lives in. Do I belong here? What is my ownership over this place? Does this place own me? who has been disposed in my favor, you know? And it feels like his films are constantly cultures kind of butting up against each other, interrogating each other, and people crossing those lines and feeling out of sorts in their world.

59:11Did I read correctly that this Year of Living Dangerously is a recent rewatch for both of you?

59:18Griffin Newman:He'd never seen it. I saw this film several years ago, but I did rewatch it for this show. And when did you watch it for the first time? For the first time ever, last night. Yeah. I like to be fresh. Fantastic. Yeah. That's great.

59:32David Sims:Well, what'd you think? I liked it quite a lot. It is an interesting film. I have so greatly enjoyed, you know, the exercise of this show where we cover someone's full filmography. at times, even when it's a great career, you start to get into a feeling of, for like months, I've just been on this one guy's wavelength and it's starting to get a little samey even if I can extricate the values of each individual film. I'm in a bit of a loop here. And other times, the filmography is so disparate that you're just like, I'm swinging all around here. I don't have any grounding force. I have just by and large felt the cruising altitude of Peter Weir movies is so comforting to me.

1:00:19David Sims:There is this kind of like thoughtful patience to his films. I love movies that feel like they have some answers that they're not sharing with you, both in terms of actually the text, but also the craft, that you can feel the intentionality and the thought, and that's forced you to sort of lean in and try to interrogate what the person is doing. And this movie does have just such an incredible vibe to it. In a very basic, fundamental way, I don't know how many films I've seen that more accurately capture the feeling of being in a foreign country. Just the basic feeling of I have landed in a place and I'm trying to acclimate to how this place works.

1:01:07David Sims:and so much of this movie is the interrogation of who are the people who landed here and act like they already own it? Who are the people here who are trying to claim ownership? Who are the people fighting to be seen within it? And I also love any time it can be pulled off a movie about a fairly... How would I put this? He's not a weak lead character, but he's almost irrelevant to the movie in a certain way. He does not drive the action.

1:01:36Griffin Newman:No, he's changed by the action.

1:01:39David Sims:He's changed by the action, and the movie is, okay, I guess I'm leaving this now.

1:01:44Griffin Newman:He's pretty shallow. He's pretty shallow. Yeah, and he gains, obviously, some depth. Right. As it goes along, and he gains some understanding of the way things really work, which is what I love about this movie.

1:01:55David Sims:I think this movie is so good. Weir's early films, which this thing we've discovered in doing this is that he came out of a background of sketch comedy, like performing and directing, and then directing sketch comedy leads to directing theater and then directing film. And his early works, especially his short films, feel way more kind of barbed and pointed in their kind of satire of this kind of guy, a sort of well-meaning, liberal white man who wants to be involved in causes, who wants to help and doesn't quite get it. and this feels like this interesting I mean this movie is just the transition point of like everything in his career but he's basically removed any of the satirical edge from the character he is presenting it very earnestly but he is also presenting kind of how unimportant he is and even in the framework of it being like oh right he's not telling the story

1:02:54Griffin Newman:but I think it's also like about an Australian becoming alienated from like Thanks. And where he like, it's about Australians becoming alienated from like the Western world or like the way the Western world works and the way the Western world operates on the rest of the world. Right. And he's going in there being like, I'm like these British guys and these Americans, right? Like I'm in this mix and then becoming alienated from which I think is so interesting, especially that it's Weir's last Australian film before he joins Hollywood. and he does so well in Hollywood and I don't ever feel like he like, you know, he never like made shit there, right?

1:03:31Griffin Newman:Like he always did his own movies. But it's interesting that he sort of says farewell to Australia with that sort of a statement.

1:03:39David Sims:And the first four films are just so thoroughly about him interrogating his own sense of identity as an Australian of his generation and how he sees the world from that experience. Well, I mean, the character of Guy makes basically one ethical decision in the whole movie, and it's the wrong one, right? Totally fed by his ambition and without any sense of context. It's like, I'm here to do this job, and I don't care who gets hurt as a result of me doing this job, as long as it gets me what I'm after. And yeah, I think you can read that as personal on the part of Weir, especially given, as you say, he's about to go to Hollywood.

1:04:20He's about to leave Australia. you he's about to become that i mean he's gonna become quite a quite a player on the world cinema

1:04:29Griffin Newman:scene i don't know if he's making this film because you keep we can i we have a dossier research i'm gonna open it up but like he'd been trying to make this for years this was a long standing passion project of his so he's not making it in this sort of swan songy way um but uh it's interesting how it sort of uh worked out have you ever read the book the christopher kotch book i I think it's Koch. I was about to say, with that spelling, you never know how to use it. Right. Christopher Koch's 1978 book, which is based on his younger brother's life. His younger brother was a reporter in Indonesia during...

1:05:02Griffin Newman:Is this the dossier? Have you opened it? I've opened the dossier. It's not physical. You seem disappointed. It's a Google Doc. I mean, especially given the year of living dangerously, you kind of want to write a big manila folder right out of a filing cabinet. Acted out with shadow puppets. So his brother, you know, was in Indonesia for the fall of the Sakarno regime. Weir reads the book and buys, reads it in a single day and inquires for the rights like immediately. His quote is, I could smell the, now he, what's this word? Sate? Sate? I don't know what that is.

1:05:32David Sims:S-A-T-E? Yes.

1:05:34Griffin Newman:Interesting. Not sure. I think it's just a different spelling of satay. The tang of clove cigarettes, the distant sound of the gamelan, the exotic Japanese atmosphere. Like he, you know, His whole thing, I feel like, with Weir is he has these aesthetic reactions to stories or whatever. It's like, he'll read a script and be like, yeah, that's interesting. But then once in a while, he reads a script where he's like, ooh, I can't stop thinking about the world. And that always seems to be why he then pursues a project.

1:06:03David Sims:He reads a thing, he goes, this is overwhelming, I could never touch this, and then he can't stop thinking about it.

1:06:08Griffin Newman:Like Gallipoli is him walking on the beaches in Turkey and seeing this hand from an Australian... A medication bottle. Right. and being like, oh my God. And like then not being able to let go of like, right, our boys were here with their shit.

1:06:22David Sims:And then Last Wave was basically the same thing. Like literally finding an object in a space and then going like, oh, so who is the person who left this here?

1:06:30Griffin Newman:David had skeered grilled meat. Yeah, right. Satay. Okay, right. So it was just spelled differently. Probably JJ's fault. Yeah, it's probably fired. Have you seen The Last Wave? Obviously, you've seen Gallipoli. Have you seen? Yes. Last Wave is pretty cool. Yeah. And that was recently put on a disc, wasn't it?

1:06:44David Sims:Umbrella has had a disc out for quite a while. That's right. I missed out on the deluxe edition. I had it.

1:06:49Griffin Newman:Criterion is now also re-released. Criterion, it is. I had the old Criterion. The DVD, yeah.

1:06:54David Sims:They only have it on DVD. They haven't announced, I think, a Blu-ray or a 4K yet. It is a movie that they own outright. Yeah, so they're going to. Like, it is a movie that domestically is owned by Criterion, so I think it is coming soon, hopefully.

1:07:05Griffin Newman:So, Weir was trying to make The Thorn Birds, which, of course, eventually got turned into a miniseries. I don't know if you know this. And then he gets sort of diverted onto Gallipoli, but then the investors withdraw from Gallipoli. So then he turns to Yerva Living Dangerously. Then Rupert Murdoch himself funds Gallipoli. And so he gets put back to Gallipoli. So Yerva Living Dangerously is backburnered. He had visited Asia in the 60s. Briefly, I guess, in his sort of... He went to Colombo, which is the capital of Sri Lanka, while he was traveling up through Europe. He was very intrigued by it.

1:07:44Griffin Newman:Bali had become a vacation spot for him. So Bali is obviously a different island in Indonesia. I've never been to Indonesia. I will admit now. I have not either. I have not either. Of course, it's been many times now. And Ben, yeah, you're always. I would love to someday. My wife's been to Indonesia, but she lived in China for years. So she's been everywhere. She lived in China for years? Yes. Do you not know that? No. Do you not know that my wife is fluent in Mandarin? This is so surprising for someone I'm so close with. Griffin has known my wife since they were teenagers.

1:08:14David Sims:I went to high school with David's wife so I like to contend correctly that I'm actually closer with her than he is because I've known her longer. Is that how you guys met? Nope. No. Complete coincidence. We became friends and he was like you want to hear something funny? I'm going on a date tomorrow with someone you went to high school with. Oh wow. Oh so you guys your friendship actually predates your relationship with your wife. Correct. Here is the order. I meet his wife. I meet David. They meet each other. I know both of them better than they know each other.

1:08:43Griffin Newman:So true. Three kids who cares. But you don't know that she's fluent in Mandarin. Or that she's lived in China. That she lived in China, working as a teacher, living in Hunan province. Okay. But because she lived in China, she was like, oh, I'm in fucking China. I'm going to go everywhere. Yeah. And so she's been to Indonesia. She's been to Thailand and Cambodia and Japan. Was this right after college? Yeah, right after college. Okay, so those are the years we fell out of touch. She was in freaking China. It was hard to contact her. I think. But she says it's very cool. You know, she's, yeah.

1:09:15David Sims:Anyway. Can I circle back to a thing? I know we'll have covered this in Gallipoli, but I think it's important kind of restating. Rupert Murdoch invested all this money into the idea of, we got to start weaponizing what's coming out of the Australian new wave. Not out of as much a sense of cultural pride, national pride as, I think there's money in them hills. All these good filmmakers seem to be making interesting stuff. at an industry that is still so small? Can we turbocharge that by throwing money into it? And so that's how he ends up fully financing Gallipoli. And it was part of what was supposed to be a company that was going to be mimicking this a larger project.

1:09:52David Sims:It is the only film they ever make. But Gallipoli gets all this fucking investment. His budget jumps way up from what he had done before because of Murdoch. And the other thing is that there's this energy. It's why Gallipoli gets more of an American distribution deal up front with everyone post-Mad Max being like, how do we get Mel Gibson to Hollywood? How do we cross this bridge? This guy is just clearly like a raw element of movie star. If an Australian filmmaker has Mel Gibson, they've like opened a bunch of doors into our offices. Do we have a timeline for what is considered the Australian new wave?

1:10:32Griffin Newman:Great question. I think it's basically like the first film that is marked as like the Australian New Wave is like Wake and Fright or the comedy Stork. And those are both 71. As we've been corrected,

1:10:48David Sims:Wake and Fright is directed by Ted Koscheff who is not in fact Australian.

1:10:50Griffin Newman:This is the whole thing. Walkabout is also marked as an early one, but that's also not directed. But it's like at least those are films where it's like they're filmed in Australia. And then The Adventures of Barry McKenzie, which is 72, which is a Bruce Beresford movie, which is like a silly comedy. but that's starting to spark like independent Australian cinema again, right? Like homegrown. And so early 70s is where you market. Cars That Ate Paris is 74. Right. And that's a really, you know, that's a real Kickstarter.

1:11:19David Sims:And then that leads to Mad Max. But this scene is kind of the beginning of the end because right after this, you get into sort of like Brian Trenchard Smith more kind of like just genre plays, Mad Max sequels, Crocodile Dundee. like the thing has become commercialized. Correct. And most of the breakout directors have gone to Hollywood. Right. That makes sense because, you know, I grew up in a small town in Oklahoma and I probably first heard of the Australian New Wave around the year that this comes out. So this comes out in America in 83.

1:11:53Griffin Newman:Right. And by then there have been Mad Maxes. I don't know if Road Warrior had like made it to America, but it's probably around when it's - I had seen Road Warrior in the theater definitely before this. And then like Beyond Thunderdome is 85 and that's that sort of thing where it's like, well, now this has gone Hollywood. And then Dundee is 86. Dundee is 86. And then it's over. It's over. Right. And like you're saying, all those guys, so like Beresford, Russell Mulcahy, even the sort of lower level guys, they've all gone to Hollywood. Yeah, and they go, Philip Noice, right. And they go make genre stuff mostly.

1:12:26Griffin Newman:Right. And then you have Peter Weir and George Miller as the kind of like esteemed, you know, whatever, like Hollywood big shot versions of it.

1:12:34David Sims:I mean, George Miller's the odd one because he figures out how to basically keep... But he still makes like Witches of Eastwood. Like he still makes... That's the one that like broke him where then he's like, if I'm doing this, I'm doing it on my own terms, even if I'm ultimately handing the product over to Hollywood at the end of the day.

1:12:48Griffin Newman:Now, did you see this film when you were, you know, in 83? Yeah. Like in theaters. Yeah, yeah. So you would have been what? 17, 18 years old. Yeah.

1:12:56David Sims:And what drove you to see it or was it just seeing everything? Well, at that time I saw everything. I knew who Peter Weir was and you know Mad Max or I should say the Road Warrior had announced Mel Gibson as a movie star in the most profound way just a theater full of people going that guy's a fucking movie star and I'll follow him anywhere and I want to see what he's got and of course Year of Living Dangerously was quite a calling card for him in that it's like, oh, he's not just, he's not an action star. He's not Dolph Lundgren up there. He's smart. He's, he can play the male action star, but he can also play the romantic lead.

1:13:43He's smart. He can also play a guy who's a bit of a son of a bitch, right? There are a lot more arrows in his quiver, we realized with Year of Living Dangerously.

1:13:52David Sims:I was thinking, watching this and not having seen it before, this maybe feels like his most normal performance ever because obviously here he's fighting against the Mad Max thing, right? And trying to show his range he has. But then I feel like when his Hollywood persona as a movie star settles, it's still using 10 % of the mania, you know? It's the lethal weapon. It's the caged animal thing. And then he can also still be in rom-coms or dramas or whatever, but he does have that odd kind of manic energy to him. and this he is just so fucking steady. You know, he's not charming and schmoozing in the way he is in Gallipoli where he's such an exciting kind of like...

1:14:33David Sims:He's playing like an innocent sort of, which it's like not something he really did much of. I don't think he's ever played someone this kind of like simple in a way, not simple in like a backhanded way. I never saw The River.

1:14:45Griffin Newman:Is he playing this kind of guy in that? Like I'm trying to think of a comparable... No, The River, he's playing a Midwestern farmer, not completely convincingly, but it's not an embarrassment either. But yeah, he never really did the kind of slightly bright eyed, you know.

1:15:01David Sims:It was just making me think of how different sort of Hollywood sees development of movie stars now where like you have a foreign export movie that crosses over here. Everyone points and goes, that guy's a fucking movie star. And Hollywood's like, okay, collectively, how do we do this? You know, and there is this feeling of It's not like one studio signs him to a 10-year deal, but everyone's like, it is worth continuing to throw money at movies that have Mel Gibson in them so we can test him out and grow him incrementally. Like, he needs to be in spring training, right? It helps if he's in a drama.

1:15:39David Sims:Audiences need to meet him in different flavors. We need to test what he's good at and bad at at a low enough budget level that this will ultimately help all of us. versus you're Taylor Kitsch, you're on Friday Night Lights, and then they're like, great, you're the star of three$200 million movies. But nobody's actually have it. Nobody's actually saying that, right? They're all individually circling it. But it did feel like there was a kind of, I don't know. You read about these things like a collective unconscious in the period between when the studio system kind of collapses and the star contracts where people are literally saying, we're buying this guy, we're sending him to charm school, we're molding him in our image.

1:16:19David Sims:Things dissipate, but still there is a sense of like, movie stars are rare. If there is one potentially on the board, it benefits all of us to just chip away at this guy. Part of it, I'm sure, is also selfishly like, will Mel Gibson look fondly upon us 10 years from now because we financed one of his early films? Not to mention what Mel himself wants, right? Because he wants to be taken very seriously. you know, eventually he's going to wind up making Hamlet. He's going to wind up making Braveheart. He wants to be taken seriously in this way. So, of course, he's not going to follow Road Warrior with, I can't think of anything stupid enough.

1:16:59Griffin Newman:Well, right. Oh, you're trying to think of like, what's the dumb thing? What would be the dumb thing he could do? What's interesting is that he follows Road Warrior and Year of Living Dangerously with three prestigy pictures, none of which I feel like were quite it. Like there's the Donaldson Bounty film. Right. Which is like pretty good. Pretty good. Everyone's... He gets to be opposite Anthony Hopkins. Everyone's all dressed up and yelling and it's fine. He does The River, which I feel like didn't really make an impact, but on paper made sense. Who directed The River? Mark Rydell. Oh, right.

1:17:31Griffin Newman:So like, you know, he'd done The Rose, the heck on Oscar noms. He'd done, obviously, On Golden Pond. And then he does that thing Mrs. Soffle with Diane Keaton, which I've never seen, but I... That's a miscar. I mean, Julian Armstrong's a good director, but right, like a bond. That feels like he gets stuck in a,

1:17:46David Sims:he's a little too earnest.

1:17:48Griffin Newman:Yeah, and it feels like these are movies that the bigger guys had passed on. Right. And it was like, well, let's gamble on this Australian guy who's so handsome. Like, he'll make sense.

1:17:56David Sims:And playing him a little more romantic, maybe.

1:17:59Griffin Newman:And then he does Thunderdome and then Lethal Weapon. Right, and then it's like, okay. It's off to the races. Well, it's off to the races, but it is him doing action for a while. It's like Tequila Sunrise, Air America, And then he grabs the prestige with Hamlet. I think what they dialed in with Lethal Weapon

1:18:15David Sims:and with Thunderdome in particular, where he's older, where he's a more haunted Max and everything, is like, what's the right level of crazy we want here? Maybe we cleaned him up too much, you know, with your Mrs. Softells and stuff. Let's get a little bit of the energy back in there. And then those two movies, it's like, we got it. We know who he is. We have a handle on him. Off to the races. How old is he when he does Year of Living Dangerously? It's a good question. Still quite young.

1:18:44Griffin Newman:If that film is made around 81, 82, he's... Let me do the math here. 27? No, he's older than that. He was born in 56. Yeah, no, you're right. At 26? Dang, he's really young. He's only 70 now. And it's obviously he's been famous my entire life.

1:19:01David Sims:I mean, he is so pretty in this. It is kind of astounding just the serenity of his face.

1:19:07Griffin Newman:Look, it's the magic of aging. It means if you're Pacino or whatever, that I can show someone like the Godfather and they're like, I didn't realize he used to look like this. And you're like, yeah, take a look. There was a reason everyone was going insane about this.

1:19:21David Sims:Apologies for the tangent, but I found recently, through doing some Wikipedia rabbit holes, do you know that Al Pacino is actually on the record as far as we are able to historically document these things as one of the 25 oldest fathers in human history. Oh, wow.

1:19:40Griffin Newman:Okay, well, good for him. Good for him. No, I didn't know that.

1:19:43David Sims:Everyone was like, oh, he had a kid really old. I'm like, yeah, doesn't that happen like a lot though? And it was like, no, he's like, he's up there. There is a Wikipedia entry,

1:19:52Griffin Newman:list of oldest fathers on record. And a couple of them are questionable.

1:19:55David Sims:Like the top guy, they're like, that guy might've been adding two decades to his age. And I'm like, then throw him off this fucking list. Let me tell you, the top 25, you don't know about. They're not on Wikipedia. They're not bragging about it. On record. There's one guy also. Tony Randall is on this list. Tony Randall had...

1:20:10Griffin Newman:He had a child at 77.

1:20:11David Sims:Yes. He was married to one woman for like 40 or 50 years. She passed away. He married a 20-something. They pumped out two kids really fast and he passed away. Tony Randall, also from Tulsa, Oklahoma. Wow.

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1:22:15Griffin Newman:So the screenplay is written by three people, right? So Weir and David Williamson are one team. They already had written Gallipoli together. Playwright. Playwright. Right. Playwright. A great playwright, I feel like, of the, you know. And then, sorry, it's Coach or? Koch. Koch. I think it's Koch. Right. Koch wrote his own script and they kind of merged them. But Weir describes the relationship as bumpy.

1:22:38David Sims:But it was a little, not exquisite corpse, but like these things were happening, siloed processes that were then mushed together. As it usually is, I think, when you see multiple screenwriters on a thing. Somebody didn't meet somebody else. I just think sometimes it's more iterative. Right. Where it's handed off from one person. I guess that's more exquisite corpse. Whereas this, it was more like Frankenstein's monster, where they're like, we got four bodies. Which parts do we want to pluck from each of them? Though the movie does not differ from the book in any great way. A different narrator, I suppose, is probably the biggest change.

1:23:17It's not Billy in the book. It's not Billy in the book. Yeah. It's another journalist in the book.

1:23:24David Sims:Okay. Okay. But that feels very telling. Right. Whether that was Weir's decision or that Weir responded to someone else suggesting that. Yeah. It does feel like kind of... No, it's a big... The most important framework the movie provides. Yeah. Yeah. For how to read it, in my opinion.

1:23:40Griffin Newman:him so uh coach says you know uh and there was initial publicity that left his name off he he says he sort of fought for the screenplay credit and uh that you know as as it always is with these sort of screenwriting disputes everyone's got their story um but we're uh he coach says i gave we're a screenplay he liked it he took it to cbs in america they didn't like the script and so you You know, there was a polish. It turned into a rewrite. And Kosh is like, I know I'm not trying to be like the sensitive novelist here. But like, you know, they had fucked up my story. And I fought to put stuff back in.

1:24:23Griffin Newman:And so Weir kind of rewrites the rewrite. The rewrite was done by a guy called Alan Sharp, who wrote Night Moves, like a Hollywood guy. Weir rewrites the Sharp script more in the direction of what Kosh is interested in. CBS drops out. Williamson then comes on board. Kosh's final estimates is that the script is 55 % Williamson Weir, 45 % me. Sharp, excised, which was the stuff he really didn't like. So, you know, he's moderately happy. Peter Weir's take is, I ate the novel, I digested it, and it was delicious. I can only recall the taste, but what I then spoke as a result of the experience was my way of telling the story.

1:25:06He really has a way with words.

1:25:09Griffin Newman:Like, not a lot of guys sat down in front of a DWGA panel or whatever and was like, well, I ate the script.

1:25:14David Sims:And it tasted good. I will say, in our months of reading and watching interviews with Peter Weir, and as someone who loves to just drive a bit into the ground, his commitment to metaphors in talking about his process, he will pick one and he will really stick with it and ride it out to the end of the thought. Right.

1:25:32Griffin Newman:Yeah. so right they altered the Quan character Weir says he's much less likable in the novel would you agree yeah and I guess he wanted sort of to alter the balance of that so in what way is he not likable is he just like more of a cynical kind of yeah I think my recollection of it is that he's Quan is more manipulative

1:26:01David Sims:yeah yeah Because like this movie frames, it is a film that positions Quan as the hero of the story. It is almost kind of like a big trouble in little China in many ways of sort of like, here's your like fake lead at the center. But actually, this movie is being driven by this person who would never be allowed to be the center of a story.

1:26:23Griffin Newman:He also says he filled out Jill's character more in the book. The character is pregnant. He felt like that was a little too much. like essentially why would she be sort of throwing herself into all of this why would Hamilton be interested you know like in a further complication of that you know like so they removed that and you know it's just essentially like I assume this is correct and we were saying the book is more very much about the politics of the time and the movie is not really not that it's it's how am I trying like it's like this movie could be set in other moments of sort of critical change in a country, I guess.

1:27:01You don't need to know anything about Indonesian history or politics in order to enjoy the movie The Year of Living Dangerous.

1:27:10Griffin Newman:You know that there is essentially a sort of coup that happens at the end of the film. But this is a crazy and fascinating moment in Indonesian history. And the point is that he's only grasping little bits of it anyway, I guess.

1:27:24David Sims:I will say I'm the opposite of David in this regard, where I, more than anything, value a movie that can be in conversation with real historical events, but not require you to open a bunch of Wikipedia tabs. I don't look to those films as educational resources. I don't walk out of them going, clearly I know everything. But I like the ability to sort of tell a story adjacent to, in tandem with, real hard history that just kind of works as a complete closed loop on its own dramatically. Well, how well do you know Vienna post-World War II, how well do you need to know it in order to enjoy the third man?

1:28:04Yes. Right. I mean, we're going to give you just enough context so you know what the fuck is going on. Right. And then we're going to play any movie.

1:28:13David Sims:And I think Weir is, in particular, very good at that. Almost all of his films are, like, in conversation with larger, thornier issues that are too hard to compress down narratively, but he is telling one very clear emotional story within that. But of course, you've also got the problem, the issue of Peter Weir and David Williamson and CJ Kosh and Mel Gibson and Sigourney Weaver telling you a story set in exotic Indonesia. Yes. And I think that's a lot of this movie's tricky standing at this present moment is just taking a little cursory, view a letterboxd. I feel like there is a conversation for a movie that's a little bit lost.

1:29:00David Sims:And part of this is no proper physical media representation, not streaming in the regular places.

1:29:05Griffin Newman:Kind of a cruddy streaming.

1:29:07David Sims:Right. Is this movie a peak example of kind of Hollywood exoticism, even though it was not fully a Hollywood movie? Or is this a movie that is actually kind of interrogating that? which does not mean is not guilty of any of the attributes. But I do think, and I especially think this in having watched the earlier Australian films up until this point, I do think that is very deliberately what he is doing. I think he is very skillful at making movies where he is owning what his perspective is and the limitations of his perspective and working that in textually and narratively and commenting within that.

1:29:50David Sims:But I think everything we're saying about the recentering of the Billy Kwan character, which we will get to momentarily, is its own major conversation, is what he's really trying to say here. of like, here's a story of a guy who lands in a foreign country that is under great turmoil and is primarily focused on advancing his own career with a sense of kind of back patty, I want to be doing the right thing and falls in love and has a hot fucking two movie stars at the prime of physical specimenship. I mean, Sigourney is so stunning. The two of them look unbelievable in this, but it's like they're just getting it on while people are really fucking suffering.

1:30:36David Sims:Right. And, you know... But the movie's very conscious of that. And the actual story is this Billy Kwan character trying to push these kind of useful idiots into helping, you know, rather than hurting.

1:30:50Griffin Newman:But without... Billy never wants to tip his hand. Correct. Like he cares too much. Yes. That he's paying too much attention to everybody, that he's keeping his files. Right. Yeah.

1:31:00David Sims:Yeah, right. I mean, even the question of like, why do you have access to the president? You know, why do you have his ear that he's just sort of kept tabs on everything for any moment? He feels like he can move the chess pieces around the board to help the cause. But of course, the tragedy of this movie is like Billy Kwan falls out a window and Sigourney Weaver and Mel Gibson get on a plane and get to go like, well, that was interesting, but back to our normal life. And they just leave the problem there. That's right. And does Weir get away with something because he's already established his liberal bona fides, his story points that you talk about, colonialism in Australia?

1:31:40Is he given us a little extra credit for that, whereas the people who made Casablanca or the third man are not given that kind of credit? I mean, obviously, when I saw this movie in 1983 in a movie theater, none of this shit ever crossed my mind, right? But I see it now in a different light, right? 40 years changes the perspective.

1:32:04Griffin Newman:Was, yes, I wonder what, yeah, right, what the sort of discourse was at the time. Because this was a big-ish film. It was banned in Indonesia until like 2000. Yeah, well, that's not a country that allowed discourse on its politics until the 21st century. And even after that, yes.

1:32:23David Sims:There was discourse and what was it? Death threats against Weir and Gibson from Muslims who believed the film would be anti-Islamic forced the production to move to Australia.

1:32:34Griffin Newman:Yes, right. Because they were going to film it. From the Philippines.

1:32:36David Sims:Yes. Yes. Yeah. Oh, no, I'm sorry. It was supposed to film in Jakarta. Which is in the Indian show. Right. Then it was denied. So then it moved to the Philippines and then they had to end up filming the final chunk of it in Sydney. Got it. Because all the actors, I believe, who are not the three principals or four principals are Filipino actors. Yes.

1:33:03Griffin Newman:Ultimately, these films are financed by MGM. The first of their Freddie Fields era famous super agent who was the president of MGM in the 80s cost 6 million Australian dollars. don't know like what that translates to but you know sort of a

1:33:21David Sims:small to medium spend I guess sure about 10 I think based on the math we did for Gallipoli they I was about to go the other direction

1:33:31Griffin Newman:alright good to know okay I think they supported the Linda Hunt casting choice which was sort of a fraught choice

1:33:38David Sims:yeah so he cast David Atkins at first who is like

1:33:41Griffin Newman:an Australian dancer and a national treasure and And I assume they cast him more for sort of like a physical reason. And then they like start doing rehearsals with Gibson and they're like, oh, he cannot hold this.

1:33:52David Sims:He was he was a small Caucasian man, but not a man with dwarfism.

1:33:58Griffin Newman:Right. And so they start like looking for, you know, anybody. Essentially, they they they look in America because they had, according to We're Exhausted, they're casting like sessions in Australia and Hong Kong and London. Wallace Shawn tested, which is unbelievable to imagine.

1:34:17David Sims:And the other one is Bob Balaban. Yes. They were like, who are tiny guys with particular energies who can be pulling like Mel Gibson's suit jacket? I mean, beyond just the fact that Linda Hunt gives such a good performance, in talking about everything that is tricky about watching this performance today, it is, I just think, helpful to envision how much worse it could have been. Yes. Because that's a to imagine Wallace Shawn doing this. No disrespect to the great Wallace Shawn. Of course. It's like

1:34:51Griffin Newman:the film would be illegal. A thing that Linda Hunt is famous for after this movie is Aunt Dan and Lemon the Wallace Shawn play. She's in. Right? Yes. It's funny that they I have no idea if this came up with like what was your Billy Kwan audition like? I found a whole interview

1:35:06David Sims:with her where she was talking about it and comparing notes with him. There you go. Yeah.

1:35:10Griffin Newman:Um, so, you know, uh, how did he, so bad casting session in LA. Um, he's reading the Gibson part, you know, um, for David or David Atkins or you're saying Wallace wrong? No, no, no. We're is like reading with people. He's reading Gibson's lines. Like everything sucks apparently. Yeah. And a casting director holds up a photograph and he was like, that's perfect. And the castor was laughing. It was like, no, this is a woman. And we're is like, I was just desperate. and I was like, I want to meet her. Like, please.

1:35:41David Sims:She had done one movie up until this point. Right. She had been in Robert Altman's Popeye as part of basically the ensemble of Sweet Haven. I think she is Roundhouse's mother, maybe. Right. I mean, and she'd done Broadway. She'd done some theater. She'd done a lot of theater. Right. She'd gone to the theater school at DePaul University, formerly the Goodman School of Drama. And I believe she was cut. I think she was cut from that program. And then when she became very famous, they went back to her and said, would you mind if we said you were an alum? Yeah. She's a New Jersey native, Ben. I guess from Marstown.

1:36:19Grew up in Westport, I believe.

1:36:22David Sims:Yes, and she's, as a teenager, diagnosed with hypopituitary dwarfism. Right, she's 4 '9". Yes. She is a Caucasian woman.

1:36:31Griffin Newman:This is so true. This is unbelievably true. Yes, it couldn't be more true. She asked, I think the sensitivity at the time was more that she was like, can we rewrite this to be a woman? Like, she was a little bit more like, I'm not sure I can pull off playing a guy. Like, I don't know how much, unfortunately, there was hand-wringing over, like, you know, putting someone in yellow face at the time.

1:36:53David Sims:When you read the response at the time or people talking about the making of the movie, it felt like their concern was, will this look silly, not is this offensive? Right, yes. It was, this is a big swing, and in a serious dramatic film, does it throw the entire thing off balance? And the fact that it doesn't and that her performance is so good, it is, Fantasy's been talking about this a lot recently, it is one of those rare examples of a Best Supporting Actress win that's basically a cakewalk and the only nomination that movie got. It is so crazy. It's similar to the Amy Madigan weapons thing of just people being like, yeah, this is just like, this is kind of one in a million thing.

1:37:34David Sims:This immediately is stuck in everyone's mind. I mean, it's kind of hard to imagine Year of Living Dangerously without Linda Hunt in it. It is the defining element. You make with the movie. I think, weirdly, David, that it's considered brown face. It's a fair point. Yellow face because she's portraying a...

1:37:55Griffin Newman:A South Asian person. Southeast Asian person. Correct. This is clearly something I'm very good at parsing out and talking about in an intellectual... No, you're right. I mean... But no, nobody was concerned about that in 1982. And nor am I going to, yes, but, the decision at the time, right? We show the movies to our kids that come with the disclaimers now. This was wrong at the time. It's wrong now. And I believe that absolutely to be true. Yeah, and that's how I feel. The thing with this one that's so odd it's not like Breakfast at Tiffany's or whatever where you're like well this is this is plainly offensive at the time and it's just playing into a stereotype and all this you know like

1:38:42David Sims:Remo Williams The Adventure Begins is only like a year or two after this and has Joel Grey playing a villainous character who is like borderline Fu Manchu and that is a performance that gets like a Golden Globe nomination but that was Hollywood at the time they were obsessed with the stunt of it was as if like oh my god and this is I'm choosing my language very carefully here. I'm saying that this was their attitude at the time and this is exactly what the danger of the dehumanization was. It was treated as can you believe this human being convincingly played a dog? You know, that it was like, oh, they transformed into and make up in a voice and they changed the whole thing.

1:39:20David Sims:And now we obviously have like an entirely different language for how we consider like who should play what and how. It is interesting that it feels like the gender part of this is the most interesting part of the performance, the most powerful, and I actually think would be seen as progressive today, in my mind. In that light, it would. I'll also tell you, when you're the director and you're setting up the auditions and you're working with a casting director and you say, what we need from this character is a half Chinese, half Australian dwarf. Right. Within a certain age. Right. And you set up the auditions and then you look out in the waiting room and you go, They're not out there.

1:40:03They're not coming in because, not to say they didn't exist, but say there are four of them out there, Chinese, Australian people with dwarfism, who are coming into audition, and maybe two of them are the wrong age, and one of them is just terrible, and one of them is like, oh, maybe we can make this work.

1:40:20David Sims:I'm not going to rank the levels of offensiveness of which things are touchier than others, but it's like, what if you find the right guy, and he's six foot seven, and now he's walking with shoes on his knees, you know? And it did feel like the part of this that felt risky creatively was the gender element. And it is the thing that gives this movie this like entirely different like power and text. I don't know if it's just me watching this from for the first time yesterday, but it feels like baked in. And I was it was this interview I found that Linda Hunt did with Bomb magazine where she's talking about having just done the run of the Wallace Shawn play.

1:40:59David Sims:And she said, like, that was deliberate in my mind, that like, I am playing a super personality, that I am not trying to play a man. And you watch this now, and it feels like there is a reading that is pretty easy to get to of this character being like an Albert Knobbs, of being someone who has assumed a different gender identity, whether out of personal expression or out of means of survival. and that is kind of like the secret the movie is holding. And I think that was the thing that just made this performance so transfixing that, you know, in an era where people are just doing kind of race-swapped casting offensively without any delicacy, playing into stereotypes without any larger gain, this performance is not doing that or rather that's not the main driving force.

1:41:54David Sims:So people were just like, fucking hand her the Oscar right away. And as like a kid growing up in the 90s and trying to learn about Oscar history, it was such a weird thing to stumble upon and be like, in like the 80s, they gave Best Supporting Actress to a woman playing a Filipino man. And it's like someone I haven't heard of. But now that you're pointing her out, she does just kind of pop up in things. Does he, do you suppose there's any consciousness that he's indemnifying the brown face decision by doing that gender swap?

1:42:32Griffin Newman:I do wonder. But I really think the way he presents it is more just the total desperation of we could not find anyone even close to being good for this. Right. And it's such a unique and specific role. And then he at one point was like, should I make the character even more physically unusual? Should I make it a hunchback? Should I essentially just kind of transform it in a way that it might fit other actors, right? And then he pulls back from that because he finds Linda Hunt. I do think Linda Hunt wins the Oscar because she's good. I do also think she wins because it was one of those kind of like, well, like you said, like, well, this has never happened before.

1:43:05Griffin Newman:We have to sort of acknowledge what an unusual performance this is.

1:43:08David Sims:Who else was nominated then? That's a good question. It's a weird year. I was looking at because it's Cher for Silkwood, who I think wins the Golden Globe. The SAG doesn't exist yet. Right. And that's Cher's entree.

1:43:20Griffin Newman:Right. You know, like into being taken seriously. Right.

1:43:23David Sims:Maybe Cher was going to be the front runner.

1:43:25Griffin Newman:This is the year. So it's Cher and Silkwood. Amy Irving and Yentl, a lovely performance, but probably not going to win. Alfre Wooden and Cross Creek, which is a great performance, but is a small movie. And again, probably sort of like a welcome and welcome to the biz, you know. And then Glenn Close and the Big Chill, which is not like the definitive close performance. But I feel like now they'd look back and be like, should we just fucking give it to her for that? and then saves us the headache of...

1:43:49David Sims:Yeah. Every time they nominated her, they were like, but we'll give it to her for the next one. And she was the only actor nominated from The Big Chill, right? Which is weird because she is good in it,

1:43:59Griffin Newman:but she doesn't actually have a big role. I think it just speaks to her status that she was so... She has the scene where she cries in the shower, which is like a big Oscar-y kind of scene. But if I'm giving someone an Oscar for that movie, it's like Jo Beth Williams or something. I don't know. It's someone else. Well, it's absolutely the argument for an ensemble award. It is. Right? Yes, that would have won Best Pass. Big Chill would have won it hands down.

1:44:23David Sims:Yeah. And then who's the fifth nominee again? It's Linda Hunt.

1:44:27Griffin Newman:So Linda Hunt shared Glenn Close, Amy Irving, Alfre Woodard. Right, right. Okay. Good year. Great performance. It's an interesting year. It's an interesting year. That's the terms of endearment year. Right, and they run both of them in lead. Yes. So Shirley MacLaine. Right, like you could have put... put...

1:44:44David Sims:Today they would have put McClane in supporting. No, I think they would have put Debra in supporting and it would have been bullshit. No, I think they would have put McClane in supporting, which is weird. I think you're disregarding the kind of like... I know what you're arguing. Elder statesman role. I would point to Carol as the analog.

1:45:02Griffin Newman:Yeah, but Officer and Gentleman had already come out. So Debra Winger was a big movie star and that movie's more about her. And McClane is the sparky supporting character. Like, in this bullshit read of it. Like, I think Deborah would have been lead and might have won. Hmm, maybe they should have done some category fraud. They could have both won. But Linda Hunt won. Linda Hunt's such an interesting actor who has such a crazy, interesting career in some ways. But is also someone that, like, obviously Hollywood never really knows what to do.

1:45:32David Sims:No, there's a fascinating kind of, like, paycheck run, and I don't say that disparagingly, where the studios are like, this person's interesting. How can we work her into our big movies? and you're like, oh, she's like the madam running the saloon in Silverado. She's like the stern principal in Kindergarten Cop. Like, there's a good series of big studio paycheck gigs for her that all use her in an interesting way. Another one or two Altman movies too, right? She's in Pret-a-Porter. Yeah. And then she ends up on, she was on a 90s legal show and then she was on NCIS.

1:46:06Griffin Newman:She's on The Practice. Yes. But as like one of the judges. But NCIS, for 100 years. She was on that show for 100 years.

1:46:14David Sims:Los Angeles? Los Angeles, right. I always forget

1:46:16Griffin Newman:if it was New Orleans or Los Angeles.

1:46:17David Sims:This is a thing I discovered that I just, I'm so happy. I did the research and stumbled upon this myself. Linda Hunt twice won the Teen Choice Award surfboard for choice female TV star colon action.

1:46:37Griffin Newman:For NCISLA? Yes. Those awards, of course, full of integrity and voted on by action wait a minute they give a surfboard they give you a whole big ass surfboard you got a gun for one of these you got your Pulitzer you got your Tonys you gotta get a surfboard you go up on stage

1:46:52David Sims:and they give you a I was desperately trying to find a video of her accepting the surfboard on her IMDB she is credited once as self at one of those ceremonies but I could not find any video of it but both years I think the category was exactly the same I believe she beat Yvonne Strahovski for Chuck Maggie for the La Femme Nikita TV show. Like, it's like four TV shows.

1:47:14Griffin Newman:Here's Chalene Woodley accepting a surfboard.

1:47:16David Sims:Oh, it's a full-size fucking surfboard.

1:47:18Griffin Newman:Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was two years in a row,

1:47:22David Sims:the exact same nominees. I think I just, like, leave it in a parking spot, you know, outside. Just like, yeah. No, you gotta ride that shit home. I just love that it was four women in high heels who kicked people and that both times they were like, the teens have spoken and they like Linda Hunt sitting behind a desk. What if you don't surf? This is my, what are you going to do with a surfing board?

1:47:45Griffin Newman:Sell it, frame it. Do we call it a surfing board? It's just a surfboard. This is again,

1:47:52David Sims:you're sort of, you're not really a Hollywood guy I'm feeling here. But to this point, it's like this wasn't an anointment of a career. She was basically unknown to most of Hollywood. She was, you know, established in theater, but had done almost no on camera work. And then Hollywood is like, I guess we got to cast her in stuff, but she never becomes... You look back and go like, oh, that makes sense that Linda Hunt has an Oscar. She got a Tony nomination for End of the World,

1:48:20Griffin Newman:a play I don't really know in the 80s. Yeah, that's about... Anyway, she's in the film. Gibson, obviously, was the choice to begin with. Apparently, he was vaguely wary of the character, I think because he'd never done that kind of a thing, right? The sort of more cool, detached... Just the hold the center thing.

1:48:39David Sims:Right. Yeah.

1:48:40Griffin Newman:Sigourney Weaver, Peter Weir liked the film Alien. Yeah. Like many of us. And so, I don't know. He didn't, he didn't, like, you know, didn't have to press too hard.

1:48:52David Sims:Her time in between Alien and Ghostbusters wasn't rocky, but you do look back at it and you feel her fighting against getting pigeonholed as just genre.

1:49:05Griffin Newman:As, right, like a sort of an action queen or whatever. Right.

1:49:08David Sims:And it feels like she tries a lot of interesting stuff when she and Ghostbusters can prove that she's funny. And then that's followed by aliens and gorillas in the mist and everything. Like by 84, 85, it's like, oh, Sigourney Weaver can do anything.

1:49:20Griffin Newman:But she only does one movie in between Dangerously, which is Eyewitness. Right. She and Bill Hurt both kind of anointed new movie stars at that point. Never seen. They're like journalists, right? They're like TV journalists? Peter Yates, right? I think James Woods is also in that. That's not bad. Sure. You know, when she had been in college, she had gone to school with Christopher Durang. Right. And he had written these plays. They would do these plays in college. And he wrote these roles for her where she was kind of the, you know, in a sense, he's writing. Yeah, they were very much comedies.

1:49:58And she got to do lots of wacky stuff or be kind of, the fact that she was tall, statuesque, beautiful, long-legged and yet being in these screwball comedies who are playing a kind of Margaret Dumont character in these things that Durang would write. So it makes sense that after Alien, she would say, well, that's not really who I, I'm not really an ass-kicking action star. I do different stuff. But in Year of Living Dangerously, she and Mel, right, find an opportunity to play. I mean, she's just so fucking smart, right? Her screen persona is so fucking smart. And so you can imagine a lot of actors who would feel not equipped to play this role that she plays in Year of Living Dangerously.

1:50:47David Sims:She has a tremendous amount of intelligence and authority on screen that just is established. Second one when you see her in a movie that doesn't have a ton of time to backfill character.

1:50:58Griffin Newman:Right after this is when she does Hurley Burley on Broadway, which I feel like was another kind of big fucking deal. Does she do much theater now? She did Christopher Durang's... Masha and Sonia and Spike. That was the last one. I think so. She doesn't do a lot of it these days. Is she in these fucking Avatar things? She sure is. Tracy, I'm so glad you asked.

1:51:23David Sims:In a stroke of almost Linda Hunt-esque casting. It is bizarre what they do with her. Sigourney Weaver plays a 13-year-old alien. So in the first film... It is a phenomenal performance.

1:51:34Griffin Newman:In the first film, Sigourney Weaver plays the scientist, a human person.

1:51:38David Sims:She's like a chain-smoking, tired... I'm trying to make these avatars. How do people become aliens?

1:51:44Griffin Newman:She dies in the first film, spoiler alert. But her mind is uploaded, of course, to a mind tree. Don't worry about it. When you say spoiler alert after the spoiler, it kind of loses some... A little bit. and then in the second and third films she plays in Navi an alien so motion capture performance but they use the motion capture so that she can play a 13 year old girl

1:52:05David Sims:but it looks like her it's it looks like Sigourney Weaver's face on a 13 year old blue cat alien and she is so good in the films and she is such a a well observed performance of a teenager

1:52:16Griffin Newman:it is she's here she is

1:52:18David Sims:oh there you go

1:52:19Griffin Newman:anyway but back to the year of living dangerously it's just so exciting having you on the show and I feel like I just want to tell you all these things.

1:52:26David Sims:We're excitedly showing you our macaroni art.

1:52:29Griffin Newman:As we said, they were never really going to do Indonesia. They shot in Manila, which was very arduous. Then there were terrorist threats, which was a problem. Manila is a very Catholic city at the time, I think. Then they start shooting in a village that's very heavily Muslim. And this causes a lot of friction. and they, I think, don't know how much of a mess they're making by doing all of this. They're just blundering around making their movie. So they eventually have to retreat to... I mean, at one point, a note was left in a vehicle saying, in the name of Allah, the Almighty, stop your imperialistic film or we will stop you.

1:53:08David Sims:That's the thing. The discourse of this movie, I think it was not touchy in the States. It was touchy the places they were filming. That makes sense.

1:53:17Griffin Newman:Yes. So we're going to leave. Imelda Marcos, the then first lady but a big Filipino politician obviously personally reaches out and begs them like don't leave like you know like we'll figure this out but we're is just kind of like this is too fucked up like we don't need to be you know dealing with all this life first movie second is how he puts it so then they do another like six weeks in Sydney recreating some of the sets like patching it all together and yeah the biggest battle what do you think the biggest battle over this movie was after it was, you know, Final Cut. The biggest battle? Like, the biggest kind of, like, U.S.

1:53:57Griffin Newman:censor kind of, you know, like, you know, the studio thing, like, it's that there's child nudity. That there's the boy naked when he's sick. Oh, God. Like, isn't that, you know, isn't that how it goes, though? Like, you know, it's like, they're like, well, wait a second, though. Why are we seeing a penis? Like, a child's penis. From the dead child who's being... Right. Priorities there may be a little out of whack. Film came out December 82 in Australia. January, late January 83 in America. So Linda Hunt wins an Oscar for a performance that was a year plus old. Wild. Like she only, she wins in the 84 Oscars.

1:54:34David Sims:Yeah, and looking through it, it really felt like she just sort of swept all the critic awards. Yeah. It must have been a performance that people were like, that was interesting. Obviously, that's not a traditional Oscar winning performance. And then it became such a critic's cause that she carried it all the way. I just think back to the casting thing for a second. An interesting comparison point that I saw people pointing out on Letterboxd to your point of like, yes, it is incredibly hard to cast these things, right? And in theater, you are granted more sort of latitude if people can play things representationally.

1:55:08David Sims:And in film, we expect a kind of literalism. And how do you find the real person and also know that they can deliver what's necessary for the role and all of that, which is none of this set as an excuse, right? Just the casting is an incredibly tricky art form. The weird kind of counter to this movie is Killing Fields two years later, where they hire Hying Nesnagor, who basically just was the guy he was playing, and he wins an Oscar as well, you know? And it's in an academy that has very rarely awarded Asian actors at all. He is one of the few, and it's basically he is considered it's him and Harold Russell from Best Years of Our Lives, or the two times that someone who was like straight up a non-professional actor, we hired this guy based on life experience and it worked.

1:55:54David Sims:And even then, you know, it's going to be hard if you go, well, let's just assume we can direct them and we can get the performance out of them. We have to find a four foot nine half Australian Filipino dwarf. It's still like a tough challenge. You know, I, uh, years ago, uh, just to literally identify that human being alive on the planet. Right. Yeah. Years ago, I did a play of mine called Linda Vista and there's a Vietnamese American character in Linda Vista. And we went about trying to cast this role and trying to cast a Vietnamese actor in Chicago was challenging. Uh, we, we eventually got there.

1:56:33I, I have a Chinese Korean American friend who said to me, why are you trying to cast a Vietnamese person? You're not going to find a Vietnamese person. You just cast an Asian person. And I said, but don't you think that the Vietnamese person would have a different perspective on that and would want to see themselves, want to see the Vietnamese person represented on stage by a Vietnamese actor? And she said, that's not the way we look at it. She said, if I have to wait for the role to come up that's a Chinese-Korean-American. I've already got a limited number of roles I can play, and now you're going to tell me that I can only play a role if it's Chinese-Korean-American?

1:57:15Well, I don't know what Linda Hunt would say, since she has dwarfism, about a role that comes up in which she's being asked to play a dwarf. Yes. Now, would she say something different now than she said back in 1982? I don't know.

1:57:32David Sims:I don't know. We're not hand-waving or excusing any of it. There are two fundamental truths, which is this casting would never happen today, and this performance is extraordinary. And it is really the juice of the movie in every way. and back to just the reframing around this character is the whole reason this movie works for me on top of her just nailing the performance so hard but I think today there would be some form of reconceptualization around the character somehow I think today a director would say let's find that person before I do anything else yeah right it's like I've got to know that I've got that person I mean that I can build this movie around there was whatever years ago 2019 Steven Spielberg announced he was going to make that movie about the kidnapping.

1:58:21David Sims:The kidnapping of Garda Montarda.

1:58:22Griffin Newman:It's been made since then. Yes.

1:58:24David Sims:But he announced it as his next film and they said, and now we begin the worldwide casting search for The Kid. Right. And basically after two years he was like, I can't make this movie. Yeah. We never found The Kid. Right. You know? And if you're Steven Spielberg you have the clout to be given the money and the runway to search knowing that you might not find The Kid. If you're Peter Weir at this point in your career Oh, I know. They're saying to you, here's when you start filming. Yeah. In Manila, no less. Right. You decide who's playing that role, but we're not waiting around for four years.

1:58:57David Sims:Mel's got like two more fucking Mad Maxes to make or whatever. Right. Yeah.

1:59:01Griffin Newman:So the film, we should discuss a little more in depth, I would imagine. You know, what do we...

1:59:06David Sims:It opens with Billy Kwan, a character who we'll later find out is dead. Sure. But is telling the story of the film to us, basically.

1:59:13Griffin Newman:You're right. He's narrating from beyond. In Diary. form. Right. Yes. In a way. Yeah. But does this mean we're done with the dossier? We are. I'm sorry. No, it's alright. The only thing left there is, you know, the reviews, the reception of the film, which I can tell you more.

1:59:31David Sims:If there are specific questions, we can always plug back in. I can tell you a plate at can.

1:59:34Griffin Newman:I can tell you that it was well received by critics. And we're, these days, just sort of like, I'm not sure about that film's legacy, but I'm glad you know, it still exists. He doesn't talk about it in a reverential way exactly, but I think it was a pain to make. Here's what I don't know yet. How do you feel about this film, David? I love this film. I, you know, sensitivities aside and all, like the things we discussed, like I just, it's just the kind of movie I really respond to because it's sexy, but also like politically complex and like rewarding in its complexity. just like not giving you an easy answer, not giving you an easy guy to root for.

2:00:22Griffin Newman:Like he makes mistakes that are identifiable mistakes to me. He behaves in a way that I'm like, yeah, I don't know that I would really be of upright integrity here either. I don't know that I would know how to navigate this situation, but I would be kind of thrilled by it. And it's just a film that feels very relevant. Always. You can say it's relevant now. Everything's relevant now. Right now, everything is relevant. Right now, everything is relevant. But like... The Super Mario Galaxy movie has never been more relevant. Right. All films. But like, capturing like the feeling of a country on the brink of something is hard to do.

2:00:58Griffin Newman:Like, and I love any movie that does that. And I love like Rossellini movies. I'm trying to think of like, what are other movies that you would put in that genre of like sort of films about a revolution, but that aren't about like the instigators of that revolution? I don't know.

2:01:12David Sims:That's an interesting question.

2:01:14Griffin Newman:but I love revolutions Missing Missing isn't yeah another film that's impossible to find right now right isn't missing it's on criteria oh it's on criteria then I should go fuck myself you should but Gallipoli is that was not not inherent in my comment that you should go fuck yourself

2:01:30David Sims:Gallipoli is is similar in that regard it is you know backgrounding a giant historical moment and showing it to you only through the perspective of people who don't understand how important what is happening around them is actually going to be.

2:01:46Griffin Newman:Yes. Look, I'm no expert on Indonesia. I don't know if you are. Are you? I am not an expert on Indonesia. This is good to get out there. But like, Sakarno, from what I understand, Sakarno was not a communist. Right. But he was sort of like loosely aligning himself left wing, loosely aligning himself with the Soviets, maybe loosely drifting from the Americans. And what's happening in this movie is the West, the Americans, the Brits, the whatever, the old nasty stakeholders are like, let's fucking sow chaos so that we can get our guy in, right? Like, that's what happened in Indonesia, right? Because like, Suharto is the guy who replaces him.

2:02:31Griffin Newman:He's like, you know, I'll do what the Americans. David is saluting for those of you listening at home. and I know that I am embarrassingly simplifying Indonesian like politics here but right like and I just love that what's up Ben? Well because I was really trying to figure out like he seems to be this figure like a hero He is. Sukarno? Yeah. He is. He's the father of like Indonesian independence like they broke off from they were controlled by the Dutch for you know a hundred fucking more I mean how many you know hundreds of years. They were the Dutch East Indies. And like post-war, he's the leader of their independence movement.

2:03:11And completely anti-imperialist. Right. He doesn't want anything to do with the colonizers. Right. And therefore sets himself up as a leader of the country. But of course he's terribly corrupt

2:03:27Griffin Newman:as well. And that's what the tension of especially Billy Kwan. I mean, everyone else here is, they're they're drifting in here because it's interesting. Like Billy Kwan wants to Karno to, to help and Sikarno like, and I guess identifies in Sikarno, like, you know, good, right? Like you could be doing good. I mean, like were I in charge of a nation of what? 10 ,000 islands with like 400 million languages and like that had just been liberated from Dutch bond. I, yes, I imagine corruption would reign. I don't really know. Like the, This is what I don't know. Like, was Sikarno a bad leader? Like, I don't think so.

2:04:07Griffin Newman:Like, I think it was just like an insane and complicated situation that then the West kind of like blew up.

2:04:12David Sims:I also think there's an interesting chicken-the-egg thing when you look at like radical revolutionary movements and how often those leaders are proven to be corrupt and whether there is some driving force in them that pushes the politics, even if ultimately helpful to their people, so that they can achieve their own ultimate desires and gains, or if it's just classic fucking absolute power corrupts absolutely. But so often you have these arcs of the person being the savior ultimately becoming the exact kind of person that they existed to topple. Yeah, a little. Not the exact same. I think there's a thread of that happening, but I think it never actually

2:04:49Griffin Newman:even really came to that.

2:04:50David Sims:I'm not even saying with him in general. I'm saying like globally, across history, that is a thing that repeats itself so much. History aside,

2:04:56Griffin Newman:I just like how the film captures that, you know, all of that ambiguity. Yeah. While still being a 100-minute sexy journalism thriller.

2:05:05David Sims:Well, also, to your point, what I like is...

2:05:07Griffin Newman:It's a pretty darn watchable movie. Yes. But it's not a movie where he's gonna break the case and fucking save the day. And it's not a movie where he's like the white savior or whatever. You know, like, it doesn't really... No, no. It avoids all these pitfalls.

2:05:19David Sims:It's like an anti-white savior movie even though it is obviously placing this guy front and center in the story. It doesn't feel like it yells

2:05:24Griffin Newman:at the audience at any point.

2:05:26David Sims:But it's why I said the, like, useful idiot thing is there's this sense of like, as you said, Billy Kwan being like, man, if someone could get through to this guy, he really could help everybody. And he identifies Guy, literally just some white dude, named Guy who's handsome and charming. And it's like, he might listen to him. If I can load the right ideas into his head and he can go relay them and he's a better delivery system than maybe I would be, does that affect change? I find that idea very moving that what's going on globally, politically, what's going on in this country is so far beyond the reach of the characters.

2:06:13They really don't understand quite the world they're operating in. And they basically, you know, one of them dies and the other two run away. Yeah. I mean, right? They get to just live a fucking Hollywood romance.

2:06:26Griffin Newman:But I mean, a scene that I love is when they make it through the checkpoint. It's so tense. And then they're laughing, even though they just witnessed like state murder. Right. And I'd probably, because like they're just so exhilarated and they're like, you know, happy to be alive. You wouldn't put that in a Hollywood version of this movie. Because it makes him look like a jerk or an idiot.

2:06:46David Sims:It is begging to be misread. Whereas I view that as pointed. And part of that is the prism of looking at his other films and the continuity of his viewpoints. I brought it up in other episodes, but there is one of the first things Peter Weir did was he made one of the chapters in an omnibus movie called Three to Go that was truly like the very beginning of the Australian New Wave. Let's get these kids out of film school and try to make a movie commenting on the youth of Australia. And it's three different stories of three different characters. And he made one called Michael that is about a upper middle class kind of very coddled privileged, kind of well-meaning, liberal, intellectual kid who is fighting.

2:07:34David Sims:He wants to rebel against his parents and what he views as the safety of their bubble and wants to get into the shit and starts entrenching himself in kind of radical politics and radical art and wanting to feel dangerous and wanting to tell himself that he's not just comfortably sitting in an ivory tower. But it is ultimately an act as an effect. It's him just wanting to rebel against whatever is imposed upon him, even if what is imposed upon him is like immense privilege and security and safety. And it builds to him inviting this radical kind of theater troupe over to his parents' house, mostly to kind of just say, fuck you to his parents, and then immediately is hit with like, actually, is this more chaos than I want?

2:08:21David Sims:and I think it's really interesting as like basically the first extended narrative thing Peter Weir ever made on film because it feels like it is him very much trying to excoriate the exact person he doesn't want to be. Sure. Right. You know?

2:08:39Griffin Newman:The sort of cultural tourist. Right.

2:08:41David Sims:Right. And the guy who gets out when things get a little too messy. Right. Who likes to believe that he could get down and dirty and really give everything to the cause.

2:08:51Griffin Newman:But what does he do in this? He doesn't do much.

2:08:54David Sims:Exactly. That's the difference. And he's really the first act

2:08:56Griffin Newman:of the movie, like, just kind of circling around. Like, he's really not doing anything.

2:09:01David Sims:Right. That movie feels, right, it feels much more barbed. And this, the way it is, I think, getting at a somewhat similar thing is much less critical of the character and more critical of the societal systems. And then as you're saying, like, the moving part of it for me is Billy Kwan basically understanding that everything boils down to people, that these issues that can feel so humongous and impossible to manage or ever affect change, ultimately are swung by two people having a conversation. Right? And can you get the right two people in the right place? Can you get them to align on the same things?

2:09:40yeah and so much of the movie's philosophy is contained in that first conversation that billy and guy have as guy is just arriving and billy's talking to him about you know he talks to him about tolstoy and you know what what would you do you help the one person in front of you how do you how do you help what then must we do uh uh which is all pulled straight from the book by the way in Kosh's book. I mean, the dialogue is pulled straight out of the book. And it's really the argument that, or the conversation, I should say, that sits at the center of the film and that we keep coming back to. I mean, like I say, a guy only makes one ethical decision in the movie and it's arguably the wrong one.

2:10:22So, okay, the plot of this movie, though. Oh, we're still back to the plot.

2:10:25Griffin Newman:No, no, it's fine. We don't have to be, but I'm just trying to think like how it progresses.

2:10:30David Sims:I mean, much like Mel Gibson wanting to show people that he is not just an action star and that he can do drama. This is a guy who wants to be boots on the ground, an important photojournalist, you know, video journalist, film journalist, I guess, doing something meaningful. But also, he wants to stake his claim as important. He both wants to feel like he is fighting for the right issues and also that he is seen as someone who can tackle issues of weight.

2:11:00Griffin Newman:He arrives, he knows nothing. His predecessor has left him nothing, right? So he's kind of like a true babe in the woods. So he meets all the guys. Michael Murphy, love to see that guy. Always love to see Michael Murphy. What's he? I mean, he's an Altman guy to me. Yeah. He's a big Altman guy. But he does a million things.

2:11:19David Sims:He's great in everything. And he's a terrific. This is only, what, two or three years removed from Unmarried Woman, where he's also a son of a bitch. Oh, and Manhattan, a couple of years after Manhattan, where he's also a son of a bitch. He just played this sort of bland waspish. son of a bitch. It is rare to have someone who was that good and that handsome basically fully embrace the idea of being a character actor past strategically to represent the most annoying kind of person.

2:11:50Griffin Newman:You know what I've never seen is Shocker. Oh, sure. The Wes Craven movie that he's the lead of. Yeah. And I've always wondered what that is.

2:11:57David Sims:He's the human lead being haunted by the Shocker, right? I believe that is correct. Yes.

2:12:02Griffin Newman:Is what Mitch Pileggi is the original shocker.

2:12:05David Sims:Right. He's the man who sends him to the electric chair and then the man in the electric chair ends up haunting him. Maybe I haven't seen shocker. It's Wes Craven. Wes Craven. Yeah. But even like...

2:12:12Griffin Newman:That sort of weird 80s Craven where he wasn't sure what's his...

2:12:15David Sims:He's great as the fucking ineffectual mayor in Batman Returns. Yep. He's great and away from her. Like he's... I just think he is... He's always good. Always fantastic. Mm-hmm. And this is such a perfect

2:12:24Griffin Newman:use of him. He became a big narrator. He narrates like any PBS shit. That's Michael Murphy. Yes. Anyway. Michael Murphy's there. by the way.

2:12:34David Sims:Still alive.

2:12:35Griffin Newman:How old is Michael Murphy? I can tell you that he's 87 years old.

2:12:37David Sims:He's 87 years old. Yeah. He's about to turn 88. And I think he's the only American, well, I was about to say he's the only American, except Linda Hunt, of course, is American. Yeah, right. But he's the only American character. Oh, Sigourney Weaver's American. He's the only American character. That's what I meant. Yes, he is the token ugly American. And it's another scene that I think is really telling.

2:12:54Griffin Newman:But Sigourney, she's a British diplomat. Yeah. Right. But she's an American actress. Yeah.

2:13:00David Sims:The scene around the table where Michael Murphy is trying to sell Mel Gibson on the sexual tourism of the Philippines, where you're like, you know, okay, but like cut the bullshit. You're not here because you actually care on any humanitarian level. This is a cushy job because they treat you like royalty. Right.

2:13:18Griffin Newman:And the laws are looser. Your money goes far. You're right. Right.

2:13:22David Sims:And then who's the other actor?

2:13:23Griffin Newman:His name is Noel Farrier. He's an Australian actor who is, you might be unsurprised to learn, had a big comedy career. Contemporary Barry Humphreys, who's a big Australian, who's Dame Edna. Is Barry Humphreys... He died. Okay. Died very recently. Do we get a sense of what publications, what countries... These would be like wire journalists, I would assume, right? My dad was a wire journalist. Okay. He worked for UPI. He lived in Vienna. He lived in Beirut. He lived in Rome. Hated the Australians. No, my dad hated Welsh people. and that is too strong to say that he hated them. It's more that my dad, I would detect in him disdain for the Welsh, where I was like, you grew up so fucking poor in London.

2:14:11Griffin Newman:Like, what is, you know, what do you have on the Welsh? Nothing. Like, you know, it's like you're just as like a bunch of a yokel as them, except you grew up in like South London or whatever. But like, and like, and he just kind of had these like, yeah, but they're just so silly. You know what I mean? And I would be like, this is because we, what, the Brits conquered them a thousand years ago.

2:14:30David Sims:But this is also a tale as old as time. You're all stuck under the same boot and you point to the other person and go, I think they're the fucking problem. That's exactly what was so funny about it.

2:14:38Griffin Newman:And it wasn't like he was the only one. It's a common thing in Britain that people are like, ha, the Welsh. And it's just, I'm like, they're like a hundred miles that away. How different are you? But no, he didn't, my dad didn't have an Australian thing. Other British people do. I mean, don't you, I mean like, have you been to Britain? You know, it's like the Brits, the way they are, it's especially with Australians. But, you know, any like, you know, Canada, you know, America, where they're just like, you know, those guys are kind of Britain Junior. You know, we kind of invented this whole thing.

2:15:09David Sims:They're fucking running circles around the British labels in terms of physical media these days. The Australians are stepping up.

2:15:15Griffin Newman:I mean, what is a good, is there a good British, like, Eureka? Eureka. The BFR.

2:15:19David Sims:Yeah. Indicators is UK and Radiance is UK. Radiance is UK. Yeah.

2:15:23Griffin Newman:But like the old Tartan label and all that, right?

2:15:26David Sims:Like they're gone, right? Yeah. Yeah. But you got imprints and umbrella and via vision. I'm just pointing to the time. We got to, let's keep going with the plot. The scene of them sort of like trying to suss out in Mel Gibson, what is your sexual deviancy? As if the only reason you would take this job is to be able to take advantage, right? And it's like Michael Murphy is basically, I wasn't even going to say coded. He is like, this is a man with like pedophilic inclinations. who is like primarily driven by underage girls. Yes. And the other guy is like deeply closeted.

2:16:05Griffin Newman:Right. Because when Billy's laying it all out at the end, that's what he's, right. He's poking at all of those sort of unspoken things.

2:16:11David Sims:And in that first scene, I think where you're introduced to those guys around the table and they're poking Billy as like, what's your fucking thing? Who are you fucking? What's your fucking deal? And he like very, like stands very firm of like, that is not my relationship with her. You know? they're like, so you're fucking her on the side, right? Why would you talk to her otherwise? And he has this like, you don't understand kind of thing where it just feels like Billy is a character who is completely grounded in the value of seeing people and seeing the worth of people and the relationship of people to each other in a non-transactional way.

2:16:47Griffin Newman:It's why it's so interesting to me to learn that the book character is less pleasant. But I guess, because like to me, it's like, right, they invest the morality in the movie in Billy. Because this character is very strategic

2:16:59David Sims:but not in a devious way.

2:17:01Griffin Newman:Yeah. I'd be like, fine, manipulate me. Oh, no, no. You made me fall in love with the Courtney Weaver. Oh, this sucks. Yeah, that would suck. Oh, fuck.

2:17:09David Sims:Don't you hate when that happens?

2:17:11Griffin Newman:No, what do I do? Yeah. So, Billy nudges Guy towards Jill, right? Mm-hmm. And I feel like Bill nudges Jill towards Guy as well, right? Like, there's all this sort of subtle manipulation going on.

2:17:23David Sims:Mm-hmm.

2:17:24Griffin Newman:And...

2:17:24David Sims:and also lets Guy know that he can give him access to the president in exchange for agreeing to make Billy his exclusive cameraman. That is framed originally as just, you do all that for me, and it's like, look, I just want steady work. Which, of course, is not... I don't think it's the president. I think it's the leader of the Communist Party. Oh, yes, I'm sorry. Correct. That's right. Yes, yes, yes. But who does later, historically, did become the first president? Am I wrong about this? No.

2:17:52Griffin Newman:Sukarno is the president of Indonesia. at the time. Yes. So, Sakarno is eventually related, but so what happens is there's a communist, you know, not revolution exactly, but like there's communist fighting. Tracy, I'm looking at you because you know everything about this. I assume you know more about this than I do, but there's communist fighting. Sakarno was the first president. Yes. The military led by Suharto uses that as an excuse to completely wipe out the communists and all opposition. That's right. And then eventually kick out Sakarno. Suharto becomes the president of Indonesia for 35 years or whatever until death.

2:18:27Griffin Newman:No, not until death. Right, in the 90s, it's like the economy gets bad and it's finally his time to go. I listened to this podcast called Revolutions by Mike Duncan. I highly recommend it to everyone. It's well known. Where he goes through every single revolution that's ever happened. It's just him talking. It just tells you, I'm on Mexico right now. And it's just always so interesting how it's always the same fucking mistakes. that guys just stay a little too long. And it's like, hey, you're getting old. Do you want to pick a successor? And he's like, well, if I pick a successor, then you'll try to get rid of me.

2:19:01Griffin Newman:You know, it's like you started the relationship by cheating on someone. Then you're like, I think you're going to cheat on me. Like the whole, like, right? Yeah. And Sukarno was kind of laying the groundwork for the communist uprising that was eventually put down. And one of the ways he did this was with a speech in which he spoke about living dangerously. Correct. That's where the title comes from, which is never referenced in the film. It's referenced in the book. Right. Straight off the bat. But... Vivere pericoloso. Well said. and like he called he gave the speech during like an anniversary of their independence and it was about a year before the coup but was he like did he want this coup to happen the way it happened like no right like this is the thing that's all sort of you started to get in the weeds here and it's like I'm lost again seeing it in 1983, I couldn't have found Indonesia on a map.

2:20:12Sure. Right. So.

2:20:16Griffin Newman:That didn't matter. It didn't matter. Like it's still a film effect. But what spoke to you about the film then, I guess, apart from just their kind of rock? Well, again, the stranger in a strange land aspect of it. Right. The quality of the performances, the love story that you talk about. I mean, the scene where he goes to the embassy party and then she comes and she gets in the car with him, and we start to play the Vangelese song, is just the hottest scene. It's really unbelievably hot. They're really like peak handsome to it. You know, like Gibson and Weaver. Well, they're not only physically attractive, but they're such good actors and they play that desire so effectively.

2:21:01David Sims:They don't even speak that much to each other.

2:21:03Griffin Newman:But then there's also the sort of loaded mystery of like, you know, is there a secret layer to this relationship? Are you gaming me a little bit? Which just kind of makes it harder. Yeah. And the filmmaking. I mean, I suppose with Picnic at Hanging Rock, he had established that he was a great filmmaker. Sure. But, you know, I just watched The Stuntman last night. I saw you bemoaning. Who's the director? Richard Rush. Destiny Radiance, right? Yeah. Why did this guy never make another great film? Yeah. That's one of my dad's favorite films. So it's like, what is going to be, how are we going to know that Peter Weir is really that guy?

2:21:44And I think Year of Living Dangerously, it's very apparent that he is that guy. That scene where the British journalist says, I've taken a bungalow. And then we cut from there to the guys having a kind of rickshaw or tuck-tuck race down the street. He takes about five minutes to say,

2:22:00Griffin Newman:I've taken a bungalow. Yeah, right. He does a lot of purple preamble. too, but yes. And then the music choices and the tuk-tuk race that takes us into the bungalow, and then the whole bungalow sequence, in which we hear very little of the dialogue being spoken, but so much of the sexual tension between Sigourney Weaver and Mel Gibson is playing out through the dance, the Jerry Lee Lewis music, all of that. Just the way all of that is put together is really masterful filmmaking, I think.

2:22:30David Sims:In a really unshowy way, he has such an incredible command of like the music of cinema in the sense of the magic you can get when you just have every element of this art form working in tandem. And you're not doing anything really gimmicky or flashy, but it is just the camera and the editing and the performances and the language and the literal music, the blocking, the framing, the art direction, everything. You know, he it's like subtle magic trick shit. you know it just feels like he's always doing like close up magic that is very skillful in making these things just flow so organically and be so his movies are weirdly seductive even when they are not sexually charged but he never made a sexually charged movie

2:23:19Griffin Newman:up until now

2:23:21David Sims:this is his horniest movie yeah I would argue Picnic at Hanging Rock is very sexually charged yes that's true with

2:23:28Griffin Newman:the threat of sexual violence exactly Exactly. And it's mysterious. And like, I mean, it's just at the time, especially imagine if you had seen, had you seen other weird movies when this came out? Probably not, right? Like, imagine being like, okay, what did the guy who made Picnic and Hanging Rock in the last wave and Gallipoli make next? Yeah. I guess this has a little bit of a handshake with Gallipoli.

2:23:49David Sims:Yeah. And the Mel, especially. Yeah. This idea of now we're going to start digging in.

2:23:54Griffin Newman:Yeah. And like, let's tell us, like, Gallipoli and this both tell like human stories of intimate relationships in a grand setting, where there's a big thing playing out in the background. And I just find it ultimately just really transporting. When the movie starts, I'm in a different era. There's even something about the way the credits look, the way the credit sequence is shot. Over the shadow puppets. Yes, it feels of another time. Very effectively transporting me to a different time and place. And I love that.

2:24:29David Sims:Our friend Bobby Finger, past and future guest, I was looking at all the letterbox logs for this movie. He used the term meandering as a positive, which I'm like, that is a good way of putting. The weird movies feel like they're very much on their own time zone. They're working at their own pace and they lull you into what they're doing.

2:24:50Griffin Newman:But it's the mood it should have because it's like that until it's not. And then when everything's going down, it makes the shock of that so much stronger. And then the death of Billy so much more unbearable.

2:25:04David Sims:It is also the thing I'm almost most allergic to in historical films or films about important political issues is characters who are so aware of the importance of what they are doing in every line, in every gesture, and filmmaking that is just focused on communicating that to you. the stakes of the importance in a way that is not representative of what it feels to live, to be a person. Even when you were in the most extreme circumstances imaginable, you are not burdened with the weight of importance of what you're doing and how it's going to be studied. I think that's right. Yeah. I think you're right about that.

2:25:41I think, you know, if Woodward and Bernstein were sitting around and all the president's men saying, you know, this is the future of, Right. You know,

2:25:52Griffin Newman:fucking fate of democracy rests on our shoulders. But instead they're saying, I got to go and talk to that lady and see if I can get her on the right. You know,

2:25:59David Sims:it's what's most well judged about that movie is the amount of time that's them just being like, huh, she didn't pick up. You know? Right. That you're not just seeing the important things and that they don't immediately have the full picture.

2:26:10Griffin Newman:The first time I saw that movie when I was a teenager or whatever and it ends with them publishing.

2:26:15David Sims:Yeah.

2:26:16Griffin Newman:I was like, wait a second, this isn't the Watergate movie about like where they get fucking Nixon and like the last half of it is like Congress and, you know, testimonies and like, oh, they erased the tapes. It's like none of that's in the movie.

2:26:29David Sims:No, it's literally just a movie about getting that story. It's such a good movie. Rolls.

2:26:33Griffin Newman:Yeah, it's pretty cool.

2:26:34David Sims:Good 4K. You got that 4K? Oh, hell yeah. That's, I mean,

2:26:38Griffin Newman:talk about a good image. Is Pakula up or down? Is he like... What do you mean? Back in... Because like I feel like for a while he wasn't taking it seriously. of March Madness.

2:26:48David Sims:He was in the potential bucket for the losers bracket this year. He's a great, great... I don't know. I don't know what... I've heard you reference this. I don't know what this is. Every March we do 32 directors, a daily vote. A bracket like a, you know... Who's voting? Our listeners. And we let them dictate one piece of programming a year. But where do they go to vote? Well, it's on Twitter, which I don't know if you've heard is doing really well right now. It's a normal place to have civil discussions. And now we do it on our own website. on your oh do it on our website

2:27:19Griffin Newman:you can go vote I'll vote for you right now Wes Anderson or Preston Sturgis Preston Sturgis my man correct answer yeah no offense to Wes who is a great guy no offense to Wes would vote for Preston Sturgis he would vote in a second yes but you

2:27:34David Sims:you had said you were like is Bakula too many films is he a little down no it's a very great interesting filmography I mean the latter half of his career is a little less sexy it's what's interesting to us when we try to cultivate and curate who's going to be on the bracket each year. But you guys already know. You've got this thing planned out for the next five years. We're crazy. Somewhat. About a year and a half. But we leave gaps to let this one thing. But one director gets picked by the fans. Right, right. One director per year. Whoever wins this March Madness thing will just go on the schedule.

2:28:02David Sims:For a whole series? Yes. The fans pick a whole series? Correct. Who's the last director they picked? The last director? The Coen brothers. The Coen brothers. Poor us. Right, so it was like... They usually pick someone cool. Five months, but it was a good fucking five months. Yeah. Yeah. And right now... Yeah. It's Scorsese. Scorsese, Milos Forman.

2:28:21Griffin Newman:You haven't done Scorsese yet? No. No, because it's a very hefty ask. So that's a little bit of us being like to the fans, like, are you cool with essentially sort of a half a year on this guy? Oh, right. Which is like, it's fine. I mean, it's Martin Scorsese.

2:28:34David Sims:Weir's like the size that is perfect for us. If you got like... How about Charles Lawton? I mean, well, you know, he's pretty easy.

2:28:41Griffin Newman:Let's knock him out.

2:28:42David Sims:Sometimes if there's like a guest being floated who might be tough in terms of scheduling, will throw out is there a one film filmography you want to cover? Because we know we could just slot that in anywhere. And so long we've always kind of kept on the table as like is anyone ever going to try to claim that? Pretty good movie. Pretty fucking excellent movie. But no, but yeah.

2:29:03Griffin Newman:You worked with one. Well, you've worked with multiple blank check. You've worked with Catherine Bigelow. I have. Who we've covered on that. I'm trying to think of like who else. You guys shit all over shit all over my movie. What is that? You were a little more positive. than the other people.

2:29:17David Sims:Yes. I made a joke about you being terrified that you had a physical meeting. I like that you shouted out Lindor. That was going to get bombed. Who's the other? Marie? Is that her name?

2:29:30Griffin Newman:She's on my shit list. Marie's going to be thrilled to hear this. We covered the post way back when. Hold on. I'm not done talking about Marie. Let's get into it. So Marie, she says at one point, she said, well, I missed this vital part of the movie, because I just happened to look away from the screen for a minute. It's like, happened to look away? Who happens to look? You don't know how to watch a movie because I know what that means. It means she's looking at her fucking phone, which means she doesn't know how to watch a movie. And she's totally on my shit list. Well, she's on. Marie, you have to earn Tracy's respect back.

2:30:06David Sims:I'm looking here, like Adam McKay, Todd Salons.

2:30:10Griffin Newman:Sure.

2:30:10David Sims:I'm like, these are people where they're like major directors, but we haven't done them. And I don't know if we would.

2:30:14Griffin Newman:All right. but we covered the post yeah in which I haven't seen it I love that film we were very we were very very high on it in the moment because it was a new release so we were very excited by it I have not revisited that film but I like that film we really don't have to do my filmography no I'm just I'm just trying to see

2:30:34David Sims:if there are other directors that we've covered but those are the two Catherine and Stephen yes and then we covered Ghostbusters Afterlife of course you're the main character in that that was a favorite I don't mind saying that I mean I would say that if Jason were here you were around the truth is that Mike Judge was supposed to play that part oh really that's so funny he was supposed to play the part and for some reason at the last minute there was a scheduling problem and Jason we're in Calgary where Carrie's shooting the movie and Jason's like you were already there I was there with my wife and kids while she was working on the movie and Jason's like wow if only we could think of somebody from Oklahoma who could do a scene with Carrie Coon so that's how I wound up in that but You've not done Jason on the...

2:31:15No, we did on our Patreon. We watched the Ghostbusters movies.

2:31:19David Sims:So you got to work with Muncher. Muncher's the ghost in Ghostbusters. Okay. A blue guy. Again, just being mindful of timing. Yeah, we should wrap up soon. Try and maybe just hit a couple more major points in the plot. Griffin, you were referencing Mel's character being aware of living through a major event. Not being burdened with that self-importance. that he is kind of, not solipsistically, but he is primarily just going, okay, let me figure out the lay of the land. What is, like, who are the pieces on the board and how do I take the right side? He's not thinking about the impact he has. He's just trying to build a good career starting from that point.

2:32:00Where I'm trying to steer us is that Jill passes him info and that the Chinese communists are about to arm the PKI,

2:32:08Griffin Newman:which is the local communist party. Right. And he makes the decision that we've been saying throughout, you know, the ethical decision that's really not the right one. Ben, we haven't heard what you think about The Year of Living Dangerous. I had never seen it before. Oh. And I really, really loved it. It really resonated with me. I have such romanticism for this kind of life of a journalist living abroad, living hard, smoking cigs, drinking, hanging out at bars. You've lived dangerously most years of your life, I would say. I would say I have a past and I still think about those times fondly and glad I made it out.

2:32:55But yeah, this movie was just such a joy to watch. Great. I'm glad to hear that because I feel like, obviously, my presence here on your show is endorsement of the year of living danger.

2:33:09Griffin Newman:I mean, you could always come on to discuss a film you don't think works. It's fun to talk about movies that don't work or that are outright failures like that. That can be kind of fun too. Can I share it also? It made me feel like I was able to live in a Tom Waits song. Nice. That is well put. This is just like, that's the thing with a Tom Waits song. Like this is just not my climate. I just, you know, it's Tom Waits song.

2:33:32David Sims:It's not your climate or.

2:33:34Griffin Newman:Well, cause Tom Waits is, you know, that sort of the bayou. And this is kind of like the, you know, the same thing. It's too, the air is just too wet for me. Like I would just be struggling. Yeah. I can't be in, in this sort of jungly. This is a damp movie. Yes. I love the beach. I love the water. Yeah. Like that, that's sort of, I know I would just, I would suffer very hard. They let the actors sweat, right? They do. It's part of the sexiness. It's part of the, like, and like, yeah, so the decision at Red Sea is basically, Jill's like, hey, this shit's about to go down. You got to get out. And he's like, aren't I a fucking journalist?

2:34:06Griffin Newman:Like, right? He does the one kind of journalistic thing. He's like, I'm going to, you know, publish this news. But it's selfish. Because he's like, this is my big story. Right? It's part of his motivation. Yes, you're right that it's a little bit of him being a hot-dogging, right, kind of guy. Yeah.

2:34:23David Sims:You're right, you're right. But everyone else is, like, manipulating him towards positive ends. You know, they are sort of driving him as a vehicle in the right direction because I think they all identify. I was thinking a little bit of this movie in relation to broadcast news, which is obviously so much about completely excoriating the William Hurt character. But there's certain commonalities between these two of just like, oh my God, here's just a guy with the right shoulders and the right eyes and the right voice and the steady hand. He is so dangerous if he does not have a moral compass installed in him or the wrong people get a hold of him.

2:35:10David Sims:Because immediately is this understanding of whatever this guy communicates to the public is going to be heard. You know, he is like a human printing machine for the legend.

2:35:20Griffin Newman:Right. Right.

2:35:22David Sims:I just love too, he's a radio journalist. Like I love hearing him deliver the news. Yes. That it's not just that he's writing the pieces. That seems so good too when he's doing the broadcast and he can't stop sweating. Yeah. Yeah.

2:35:45Griffin Newman:the character kumar we haven't really talked about uh but sort of a vital character in the last act of the film he's driver his um the fact that he is uh pki which is revealed late in the right is so obvious yes when you watch the movie uh the second it was like oh shit how many times does peter weir show him sort of looking get giving side eye to uh to the other woman who works in the office or I mean clearly he's it's like everybody knows it but Mel Gibson. But that's what I love about this is like you kind of vibe if Gibson is just he's not dumb but he's just too innocent to really understand like the die has sort of been cast.

2:36:28David Sims:Well that's also like I've arrived

2:36:29Griffin Newman:at a situation that is already wrapping up and I'm just like here to have fun and learn things. It's the other thing that

2:36:35David Sims:reminded me of broadcast news where you're just sort of like there is this cultural reckoning with has the media become something that is now out of our control. You know, it has gained too much power. We have given it to a medium we don't quite understand where the values can be completely thrown out of whack based on things like watchability. You know, and the right answer to that is yes. Yes, yes. And that's you know, there's this attitude of William Hurt's more aware that he's part of the problem, but he's sort of like, if not me, then who? Someone else is going to do it, right? And he's right.

2:37:12David Sims:I'm not the one who created this situation. You know, with some years, you can look at it and go, oh, actually, if it's not William Hurt, it's going to be another William Hurt. Totally. And the other part of it is, for better or worse, this guy projects intelligence. Whether or not he has intelligence is irrelevant. Whether or not he understands the situation is irrelevant. it is that no one will listen to Billy Kwan and people will listen to Sigourney Weaver even less despite being a mega-babe movie star because she is a female diplomat. That's right. Right. And this guy is going to be able to, yeah, he's a megaphone.

2:37:50Griffin Newman:He's going to be heard. He's the best kind of character. Smart enough to know that what he wants isn't going to happen but still like a little bit of an, like can't dodge the true believer thing. I'm like, but what if you fed your people or what if you helped in the way I know you want to or you could or whatever. And it's such a great... Again, the third man, Holly Martins, right? Holly Martins goes through the same crisis over the course of the film. Not understanding the situation he's in, having the situation explained to him still doesn't get it, has to see the situation played out in front of him to sort of start to grasp just what the stakes are.

2:38:34David Sims:It is what I also find fascinating about the possible queer reading of this movie and the Billy Kwan character is there was a notion of, is Billy Kwan someone who was born biologically female, who has adapted the persona of a male, whether through a genuine expression of gender identity or strategic means to an end to be taken seriously and to be able to power these things? I think there is a queerness that Linda Hunt plays. And in this interview I read where she made the super persona comment, she said that was a deliberate, thoughtful thing in her mind. That she was not like, clearly I am playing this role like a cross-dresser.

2:39:16David Sims:But I think it's part of what's fascinating about this performance is it doesn't just feel like, well, this is like a stylistic kind of flourish. That you just suspension of disbelief by this performance. there is a even I think in how every scene is played the other characters kind of eyeballing Billy and going what's going on here what's the yeah what is the the deal and part of that is that Billy holds his cards close to his chest but part of that also is like so what so is that's the haircut what's you know like everything's a little no one has really looked or sounded like this

2:39:55Griffin Newman:uh death of Billy very sad and like and just like that's really of course like I mean, do you buy that? I don't really think that guy's in danger as much as guy is in real danger after that and gets through the blockades and gets to the airport. But you are like, right. But the loss already happened. I mean, I guess guy's eye gets fucked up. Well, and he has to navigate it without any help from Billy, right? It's not just Billy's death, but that he doesn't have an advocate. Right, yeah, yeah.

2:40:24David Sims:And what he has to navigate is how do I get the fuck out of Dodge?

2:40:28Griffin Newman:Right. and then it is over my head there is like it's not like I'm gonna expose this I'm gonna right oh I just watched the government murder a journalist like in the city he's like where's the fucking airport but it's it's so it's so silly that he goes to the palace and the way he conducts himself right it's like clearly he's he's not thinking in his right mind because he's upset but also he doesn't have Billy to guide him anymore yeah right that's not gonna work well he's also got the presumption of a white guy. Yeah. Like, they wouldn't dare kill me, right? Right.

2:41:02David Sims:And there's something so kind of like undignified about Billy's death, right? And even the way it is shown on screen that we get the moment of the breaking through the door and Billy's reaction and then we're mostly seeing just the body lying on the ground afterwards once Guy comes to the scene. And Guy later says

2:41:24Griffin Newman:when they're cleaning up Billy's stuff that Sikarno didn't even see the banner.

2:41:30David Sims:Right. Yeah. Right. Tragic. But it's not some epic sacrifice moment. Sure. You know? Yeah. It's very... It's not effective.

2:41:42Griffin Newman:Yeah. It's a dumb, pointless, but you understand the motivation, the desire to just do something. And Billy's so distraught because he's been giving money to that family and that young boy gets sick and passes away. And I think that just really pushes them over the edge. Yes, yes.

2:42:06David Sims:And it's the dehumanization. Yeah. It is the, these are not chess pieces, these are human beings. We should play the box office game. You're going straight from... I think so.

2:42:19Griffin Newman:I mean, is there anything else we want to say about the film? I'm just, I'm trying to bring the plane in here. I don't want to. I think we haven't paid enough attention to Maurice Jarret and incredible work. Yeah. Vangelis, who the song is credited in the closing credits, but Vangelis himself is not name checked. So you would almost think that song is written by. Maurice. Maurice. And it's not. Yeah. Yeah. It's the classic, like Peter Weir would just have like a collection of tapes. He would play music all the time. All the American. And rock and roll pop music is really...

2:42:54David Sims:It's just fun to have Tootie Fruity in this movie.

2:42:57Griffin Newman:He just liked that little song he uses and uses it twice, obviously. Apart from that, it's Maurice. Uses it twice, very close together, by the way. It's sort of unorthodox, the way he uses it. Also, Russell Boyd. His guy. And to be clear about Jure, Jure then goes to Hollywood, does Witness, does Mosquito Coast, does Dead Poets, becomes weird, does Fearless.

2:43:21David Sims:team that he carries over. Right.

2:43:23Griffin Newman:Russell Boyd, the legend, who is at Picnic and Hanging Rock, where they have no money figuring out all these innovative ways to make the air feel magical, essentially. He's such an incredible DP. He's still alive. Still working, I think. He hasn't really worked much since we're retired. His last credit is the way back. And before that, of course, Ghost Rider. He did shoot Nicolas Cage's Ghost Rider. why is this movie not on 4K well I guess we already talked about this it's almost certainly a rights issue but it is odd that no one's left to figure it out given Gibson, given the Oscar it's worthy of restoration yeah I agree and it's worthy of conversation right?

2:44:12Doesn't it provide an opportunity to revisit this question of casting the question of politics and it would seem to me that a new release would provide the opportunity to further that discussion.

2:44:25David Sims:To go hard, I think that's why also MGM or whoever has fucking access to MGM Home Video now through Amazon, maybe Sony, isn't going to just be like, yeah, just like put that one out with a theatrical trailer. I think there's a worry about just giving it the kind of release that Gallipoli got from Paramount, which is just like, we put it on a disc. Are you happy? Versus this This is a movie that needs to be like, have a thoughtfully curated extras package of dialogue around it and context provided. So I don't know. One of the specialty labels needs to step up.

2:44:59Griffin Newman:Yeah. This film came out. Do you know about the box office game? I've heard you guys play the box office game. I intentionally did not do any investigation because I want to play legit. An honest player. So this film came out, limited release January 21st, uh, 1983. Wow. So I graduated high school. Congratulations. Thank you. Uh, so that's as far as my education, but nevertheless, where'd you go to high school? Uh, Durant high school in Durant, Oklahoma. Hell yeah. Um, so, uh, it is obviously it's limited release, so it's not in the top five. Number one, it's a lot of holdovers. I would say from, you know, the 82 season.

2:45:42Yeah.

2:45:42Griffin Newman:Number one is a big Oscar-winning movie of 1982. A comedy classic. But it wasn't the big... What's Tootsie? It's Tootsie. It's Tootsie. Because Tootsie was a December release? Tootsie came out in December... Yeah. December 82. Massive box office. Unbelievable box office.

2:46:01David Sims:In my past of trying to memorize box office charts and such, it does just feel like the first four to six months of 1983 are ruled by Tootsie.

2:46:11Griffin Newman:until E.T. I assume you saw Tootsie at the time? I did. Oh, no. E.T. came out before. In a packed movie theater. Yeah. Did you enjoy Tootsie? I loved it. Have you thought about Tootsie lately? Now I feel like I'm like a psychiatrist. I selected it. Is Tootsie in the room with us right now? We did a 1982 movie draft on the big picture and I selected Tootsie. I listened to it, yes. A film I've only seen once. Really? Maybe twice. Yeah. But I enjoyed, but I have not seen in years. Which, what? Tootsie? Tootsie. Oh. worthy of revisit. I'll revisit it. Criterion Edition, very good. Okay.

2:46:47Griffin Newman:Tizzy's number one. Tizzy's number one.

2:46:49David Sims:What's he up to?

2:46:50Griffin Newman:Well, it's only been out for a few weeks, but it has made,

2:46:53David Sims:damn, it's made$81 million. I think it at the time was one of the 10 highest grossing films in American history. All right. Yeah.

2:47:00Griffin Newman:So, number two is an action film that had come out earlier in December. Okay. A gigantic breakout hit for one of its stars. For one of its stars. I mean, the other guy is... It's a two-hander? It's a two-hander. I mean, the other guy's a little bit more of a name. I guess it's sort of a breakout for both of them. But especially for the supporting... Especially for the line. For the sort of...

2:47:22David Sims:So one guy was already more established, but the less established guy really kind of popped on this one. He becomes the most famous actor of the 80s.

2:47:31Griffin Newman:Action comedy? Yes, very much. It's... 48 Hours. Oh, well, yes. Walter Hill's 48 Hours. Yes. Like, Nolte at that point, like, he's not nobody. No, he's a big hero. But, you know, he's still up and coming. He's an established star.

2:47:45David Sims:And Eddie Murphy is 21 years old.

2:47:48Griffin Newman:Eddie Murphy is but a child, essentially. He's so fucking old. So those are, I mean, like, obviously those are like sort of, it's like basically, do you want to go see, you know, this kind of comedy or that kind of comedy? Like, they're just kings of the box office. Number three is, I mean, and now I'm thinking about the 1982 draft that you did. Certainly one of my favorites of 82, two. Probably not my number one favorite, but one of your favorite directors. You know, certainly was nominated for many Oscars. Big drama. Gandhi. Not Gandhi, but I can tell you that Gandhi is number four. Is it a Lumet?

2:48:23Griffin Newman:It is a Sidney Lumet movie. The Verdict.

2:48:27David Sims:Hell yes. I think I got that in the legal draft on Big Picture, if we're just all reminding people of our past draft.

2:48:36Griffin Newman:I got the verdict. I got the verdict. You got the verdict? Absolutely. That was my number one. I think so. I can try to look it up. But the verdict is the best. I got the verdict in the 82 draft. Why do I feel like... I'm going to look it up.

2:48:50David Sims:Oh, because I took 12 Angry Men. I don't know. What draft was this? You guys did a legal draft?

2:48:55Griffin Newman:We did a lawyer movie draft. I got... This is lawyer movie. So it was drama, comedy, thriller, Oscar winner, movie lawyer that you would want to represent to you. Oh, nice. And then John Grisham. was its own category. And I got the verdict, Intolerable Cruelty, The Devil's Advocate, Chicago, The Firm, and Atticus Finch. Not bad. You got Bridge of Spies, Legally Blonde, Michael Clayton, Philadelphia, The Rainmaker, and Grisham. And then you picked Stanley Tucci in Spotlight as your lawyer.

2:49:28David Sims:Oh, nice. I knew that I had first round pick and I was like, what would I have gone for over the verdict? And the answer was, I knew it was going to be a feeding frenzy for Michael Clayton. You got Michael Clayton. I had to get Michael Clayton. Yes.

2:49:38Griffin Newman:Yeah. So, okay. Yeah, the verdict. So number four is Gandhi. What's your take on, of course, the Best Picture winner? It's about to be the Best Picture winner. Gandhi. What about it? You a big fan? No. I feel like you guys all kind of shat on Gandhi. We didn't. In the 82 draft. No, maybe not. They shat on it more than I did. It was important in the moment and Kingsley was undeniable. Kingsley's unbelievable in it. I think Gandhi is, you know, it's not one of the great movies of the 82, but it gets a slightly bad rap. It's very watchable.

2:50:11David Sims:It's pretty good. I've never seen it. I have it in that big Columbia Classics box set, and I'm just like, when am I in the mood to just throw on three hours of Gandhi? Let me tell you. Well, Kingsley really elevates it. I mean, there really is a way on board with that movie. But also, to see 100 ,000 extras,

2:50:30Griffin Newman:it's just unimaginable. You'll never see it again. Yeah. Yeah. it's alright I mean you know it's not not incredible it's got all the flaws you'd think it has number five is a real Griffin movie it's a real

2:50:46David Sims:Griffin movie is it an 82 holdover or an 83 it's an 82 holdover a fantasy film it's a fantasy film it's like one of my favorites or is it just my type of thing I'm sure you love it it is the dark crystal yeah I like it oh my son's favorite movie wow there you go most watched movie in our house scary spooky scary He loves it. Can I tell you the movie I almost bought as one of the three, and I actually just could not physically locate a copy in time? But if you have not watched it with your son yet, I highly recommend. Have you guys done Paranorman? He got scared by, is it called Coraline? Yes. He got scared by Coraline.

2:51:23Interesting. Yeah, Coraline's scary. And so we haven't gone back into, he likes Box Trolls. And I noticed you had done James and the Giant Peach as well. Yeah, it was scary.

2:51:32Griffin Newman:Yeah. Fox Trolls is the guy who eats the cheese and his face Ben Kingsley yeah he's really fucking good he's good

2:51:39David Sims:but it's very freaky

2:51:40Griffin Newman:yes

2:51:42David Sims:Paranorman is about fear yeah yeah yeah it is like reckoning with fear and I think it is one of the better dramatizations of fear mongering I have ever seen we have it on the shelf I think in a steel box okay okay so if I had gotten it for you I would have fucking struck out on that one okay

2:51:59Griffin Newman:I chose right I'll tell you the rest of the top ten number six is The Toy, the Richard Donner film with Pryor and Gleason that is... Remake of a French... Yeah. That's right. Perfect politics. Le Jouet.

2:52:10David Sims:Yeah. Oh, does that have perfect politics?

2:52:12Griffin Newman:Yeah.

2:52:12David Sims:I haven't seen it. Jackie Gleason buys a black man and hands him to his son and says, have fun.

2:52:18Griffin Newman:Another Oscar... So that's a December 82 release that didn't really translate. Another future Oscar winner. That was a pretty big hit, though. Not at the same scale

2:52:25David Sims:of Tootsie and 48 hours.

2:52:27Griffin Newman:It made 47 million. That was pretty good. Sophie's Choice. Sure. Um... which is, you know, is okay. I don't know. I don't know what you feel about Sophie's Choice. Haven't seen it since... Right. Since like 82. Well, I've seen it since then. It was on cable a lot. Right. I recall it being pretty good. Yeah. Peter McNichols. Fantastic. He's such a good actor. It's...

2:52:52David Sims:His career is fascinating when you zoom out.

2:52:55Griffin Newman:Right. How many times... Just when you discover him later in life, and you're like, okay, so who's... How did this guy get started? you know like Sophie's Choice is not what you would expect numbers sorry number eight is Best Friends the Burt Reynolds Goldie Hawn Goldie Hawn Valerie Curtin screenplay okay I believe yeah Valerie Curtin wrote it with Barry Levinson yeah and it's based on their friendship right so is it a sort of like they're like it's a bit of it's a it's a when Harry met Sally right directed by Norman Jewison I've never seen No, me neither. It's not great. Fair enough. Number nine is E.T.

2:53:33Griffin Newman:Big one. Big movie. And then number 10 is The Man from Snowy River. What is this? Australian film. Really? Directed by George Miller. Not that George. George T. Miller. Yeah. Wow. Who also directed The NeverEnding Story 2. Yes. Australian Western. Griffin was offered Crocodile Dundee and had to turn it down. I can't believe it cracked the top 10 of the box office. It's opening at number 10, so not amazing.

2:54:02David Sims:But yeah. Kirk Douglas? It's what we were saying. The Australian kind of like, Australian fever is cracking.

2:54:10Griffin Newman:Kirk Douglas in dual roles as brothers Harrison and Spur. Man from Snowy River is good. I give that a thumbs up. All right. And it even got a sequel, Man from Snowy River 2.

2:54:20David Sims:What's the physical media report on Man from Snowy River? What are we looking at? I don't think I own it. Okay. I don't know. Let's see.

2:54:28Griffin Newman:so you have to sort of dutifully like log like because the the database thing what's it CLZ or whatever it's called it's like my problem is I'm always like did I put this in you know like where you do this little barcode scanning but every day I assume another pallet arrives you're opening them up it's my it's my full time job it's my job like has an Amazon driver or anyone like that ever said to you like you know our fucking DVDs buddy I gotta say I live in a doorman building The driver has never said that to me. My wife says it to me. Oh, no, sir.

2:55:00David Sims:I live in a dormant building, humblebrag. Congratulations. It does feel like every time I pick up a package, they're like, get a lot of stuff shipped to you. How many do you have? How many disks? I think I'm probably around a thousand, but I'm not dutifully logging. I should. How do you store them? Like, do you have shelves? I mean, I don't really know. I have shelves that I have outgrown. There are now pillars of vertically stacked disks. like the books in Ghostbusters.

2:55:28Griffin Newman:This is my problem.

2:55:29David Sims:I also have too many discs in store.

2:55:31Griffin Newman:A very well-arranged shelving situation, but it's full. And so now the new stuff arrives and I'm like, well, I'll figure this out.

2:55:38David Sims:That is exactly where I'm at. I now just have a shelving unit that is full and then a corner where discs live. And I'm in between. I'm waiting on the new shelving unit.

2:55:49Griffin Newman:I'm watching those Bud Butiker Westerns right now, that Criterion. Is that what it is? We did. The Talty and all the... The Renown Westerns? Renowned Westerns, right. Carrie and I did every one of them. We did like one a week for five weeks. How are they? They're fantastic. Every one of them. I'm really liking the sort of like, I just have to watch my desks because then it's sort of like, the choice is out of my hands. Like, I'm not going to agonize over... This is why Carrie wants me. This is why I pick the movie every night. Right, right. Like, I don't want to choose. I don't want to scroll through carousel.

2:56:19Griffin Newman:She's like, I don't want to think. She's like, the shelves intimidate me. The streaming tiles, I can't make heads or tails of it. you pick you put it on no bitching obviously she's got veto power I think the entire time we've been together she's vetoed two movies what are the two vetoes or is it a secret one of them was a movie with Cate Blanchett and Judy Notes on a Scandal Notes on a Scandal good movie I hadn't seen it I put it on and Carrie said I've seen this and I remember it okay so it was just

2:56:50David Sims:a been there done that

2:56:51Griffin Newman:that was one veto Parliament Hill Classic something else No Town of Scandal is a Parliament Hill classic. A Parliament Hill classic? There's a lot of scenes set up. Oh, the neighborhood. Which is a park I used to go to. But no, she doesn't veto. And she doesn't blame me when the movie is bad. Right. Does she ever tap out? She never taps out. She never taps out. Sometimes it's hard to keep her awake because she gets up early. But that's napping out. There's a lot of like me making her sit up and I scratch her back while we finish moving. But your kids do a good bedtime? This is the biggest thing in my life.

2:57:25Griffin Newman:My kids are pretty good with the bedtime. Good for them. Now, occasionally, I'll put on a movie that I've seen that I like, and she watches it, and she's like, what the fuck? Sure. The Brood. Still, this is a conversation in our house still. She's like, what the fuck? That movie rocks. But I mean, it is certainly, you got to be in the right mood for it. And it's such a poisonously angry movie, which I love. Yes. And I know it's his divorce movie, and it's, That movie rocks. But yeah. I want to make sure I said everything I have to say. I wanted to bitch about Marie.

2:57:58David Sims:Noted. So wear it as a badge of honor. I wanted to say the big picture, right? You know, it was questionable whether or not I'm big picture or blank check. Well, can we get ahead? Can we get a cartoon likeness of you to wear on that desk and tell people they're sitting at Tracy's desk? We're allowing you to sit at Tracy's desk today. Right. We're not possessive like Sean. We're not.

2:58:21Griffin Newman:So this is a very free and open environment. Sean's a little bit more with the chairs and the committees and all this stuff.

2:58:28David Sims:But also I do, I have airdropped a contract over to you if you want to look it over. There's potentially a five-year first look deal on the table. Non-exclusive, but first look. I was surprised that you guys had guests come back. I didn't realize that until I listened to somebody recently and you're like, oh, they came back. So I want to look at your lists. Absolutely. Dictated by March Madness.

2:58:51Griffin Newman:Tracy, we'd love to have you on any time. I don't know if you know this, but you're quite an estimable person. So we don't want to just like bug you all the time, but we'd love to have you back. I don't feel like that, but that's all well and good. The last thing I want to say is that you're living dangerously. So I showed it to Carrie years ago. Again, oh, I didn't know the other things we wanted to talk about. Did we want to cover Star Wars or did we want to cover Godfather? Say what you're going to say and then Star Wars.

2:59:18David Sims:Okay, so. Two minutes on Star Wars. So, Carrie doesn't remember the movies. I showed her Year of Living Dangerously a few years ago. She had no recollection of it. The nanny and I were watching it a couple of nights ago in preparation for this. Former SAG. And Carrie walked in halfway through the movie. She'd been working in town and she walked in halfway through the movie and she's like, I remember none of this. I have no recollection of any of this. But she watched Mel Gibson for a few minutes and she said, my God, he's so in his body to watch the way he moves on camera. It was just like... It really is what he could do.

2:59:54There's a scene where he's going out to the airport at the very end of the movie, and he does a jog out there, this sort of high-stepping jog he does on the way out to the airport. And it is a marvel to see. It's too bad what happened to that guy. He was one of our great movie stars.

3:00:13Griffin Newman:And I think even before he went publicly insane, he lost some thread of like the kinds of movies he should be making you know he got too into the sort of Hollywood gigantic paycheck world

3:00:22David Sims:but then also his revenge thriller started getting weirder and darker yeah in a way that he's an incredibly

3:00:28Griffin Newman:magnetic screen presence I mean especially in the 80s that is a very good quote

3:00:32David Sims:from her and I I often almost always the the infrequent times that I now work as an actor I think I used to do a lot more now I'm a professional podcaster who sometimes acts I think about a quote That's how I define myself. I'll tell you, the first time you did Big Picture after Hitmaker had set it up. Right. And we were watching all that happen. We have a text thread called News and Deals that Alex Ross Perry is in as well as the great filmmaker David Lowery. We were all sharing Blu-ray announcements and deals. And we saw it happening, right? Hitmaker saying, you should maybe have Tracy on. Do you know Tracy?

3:01:10David Sims:Yes, I can connect it, this and that. And we go, Sean, you've recorded Tracy today? how was it? And he said, if that guy ever decided to start a movie podcast, we'd all be cooked. Bumped right down the chart. We're done. That's very sweet. It is our saving grace that he is so in demand in other areas. He is so esteemed in so many other fields that he never will commit to a permanent desk, which is why he can be third chair, fourth desk, whatever. But I remember some interview that Carrie gave where she talked about being a full body actor, how she feels like she can always rely on her theatrical training to in on camera work, which is often so bizarre and nonsensical and can leave you in a position where things are changing so fast and you have so little barren of where you are in the story that you can look kind of nonspecific in a scene that she relies on her instincts and using her full body and everything.

3:02:09David Sims:And anytime I'm like acting professionally again, I go like, am I am I doing full body actor shit? Or am I just thinking about my fucking head? Very nice. Very nice. It means a lot coming from her. She's also a former athlete, and Mel clearly has some athletics in his background as well, right? It's a big part of it. Yeah. And I think, I mean, you're talking about the shame of how fully this man unraveled, but it is an interesting thing where like... Great actors are often people who have a really great dialogue ongoing with their own psychology and their own body and ability to take control of these things and own them and use them in a very deliberate way.

3:02:50David Sims:But very often great movie stars are people who have some weird kind of unresolved thing within them. There is some inherent tension that makes them more unwatchable, makes them more watchable, even if it makes them less functional as a human being. And sometimes it is in a destructive way. Sometimes it's in a self-destructive way. Sometimes it's just oddness. You know, you meet certain movie stars and you're like, how do you tie your shoes? But on screen, I will buy anything you are selling. It is a fascinating thing. And, you know, we were talking with Marie, now officially on the shit list, recently, who was saying that she had just rewatched Apollo 13 and she was like, how the fuck did Braveheart beat Apollo 13 for Best Picture?

3:03:32David Sims:And we were like, you cannot overstate how powerful Mel Gibson was at that moment in time. Yeah, it's really true. Yeah. Yeah, he was. Star Wars? Yes. So you threw out one of the worst movie takes I've ever heard of all time.

3:03:44Griffin Newman:Wait, remind me, oh, that you don't like the trench run, right? I forgot about this.

3:03:49David Sims:I said, we all agree that the ending of Star Wars sucks. Give me your Pulitzer. What I said was that the ending of Star Wars is the most boring climax to a great movie. That's so crazy. That's what I said. Yeah. But you said it like we're all on the same page. Yeah.

3:04:05Griffin Newman:And you're saying it to boys there. I mean, boy and girl. But, you know, like where I'm like, I watched the trench run. I would watch the trench run over. I would revive my VHS. The VHS degraded.

3:04:16David Sims:Fantasy has like the trench run tattooed on his body. Like he's the fucking prison break character.

3:04:21Griffin Newman:And the thing about the trench run to me is like, I love the climaxes of the other Star Wars movies where he had more money and he went more epic, but it's actually kind of small in this beautiful way. Dramatically, it's like perfect.

3:04:32David Sims:And even like, I think these moments that are constantly ripped off from that sequence, but exploded and overstated, even down to just the return of Han Solo at the moment you think he's got no support, is I just think so gracefully and sort of succinctly done without making too much of a meal out of it. All right. Let me tell you millennial boys a thing or something. Let me do it. We're young ass whippersnappers. I'm an old millennial. You know, you millennials are so monolithic in their movie opinions. Let me tell you, first of all, we never called it the fucking trench run. I don't know whoever came up with the trench run.

3:05:13We called it the end of Star Wars. And by the way, The movie was called Star Wars. I always call it Star Wars. No, no, that I am with you.

3:05:20Griffin Newman:In this house, we call that movie Star Wars. A new hope.

3:05:24David Sims:New hope doesn't fucking exist.

3:05:25Griffin Newman:That really sounds like he had five minutes where they were like, hey, by the way, are you going to put a title on the other one? He's like, uh, yeah,

3:05:33David Sims:a new hope.

3:05:35Griffin Newman:It's also so... A new hope, right?

3:05:36David Sims:It's so funny for him to land on that title after he's promised he would make prequels someday but hadn't figured out what the prequels were and he was like, the one safe bet is this is probably a reset point. Because... Call it A New Hope. Because Star Wars isn't a good title. Clearly, Star Wars isn't working. It's so crazy how good a title Star Wars is. So, A New Hope, which sounds like a Faith Hill album.

3:05:59Griffin Newman:Isn't it crazy that Star Trek was a title before Star Wars? Yeah, right. Star Trek sounds more esoteric. What is that? Why'd you pick that? No one had done Star Wars? The actual Trench Run itself. Right. First of all, you know what's stolen from a movie called The Dam Buster? Yes. He would cut in footage of it, right? Yeah. Damn Buster's a damn good movie. Yeah, very good movie. D-A-M. But we've not... Why is Luke piloting one of these goddamn... Because he used to shoot Wumprats in his T-14. I don't know. Do you really think that he has the know-how to get into this machine and drive into this crevasse of the Death Star that you imagine, like, this is a ragtag rebel group, and they're like, we've scraped together like 10 of these ships.

3:06:49Griffin Newman:Yeah. And he shows up and they're like, hey, you're like six foot two. Yeah, you want to get in this thing?

3:06:53David Sims:They also, well, first of all, he's like five foot 10. Secondly, they got like 20 like lifer pilots and all of them fucking flame out and Luke is the last hope. But he's the Jedi. He's the chosen one. Yeah, of course. Of course. But why are we supposed to care about Victor Buono who suddenly shows up late in the movie in the ship and is just like, where did he come from? Who's he? And I'm, one of the guys, One of the big picture guys tells me that character has a name. Porkins? We're talking about Porkins here?

3:07:20Griffin Newman:I'm talking about Porkins. The actor is actually William. William. He does have a bit of a. Really rude of you. Victor Bonova. I saw William. Who can play? I've told Griffin this. I'm sure. Maybe I'm in. There's a play called Hitchcock Blonde and he played Hitchcock. Oh, right. On the West End stage. He was. With. Rosamund. Rosamund Pike. Yeah. That's right. And David Haig. And I can't remember.

3:07:38David Sims:He's not still with us. Right. Who can. He must be pretty old. He also. Also, he's in Raiders of the Lost Ark. He's the guy who gives Indiana Jones the assignment. Do you assume that there was a scene between Porkins and the mechanic who put Porkins in the thing, and the mechanic's name was Beans? Do you suppose there was a scene between Porkins and Beans? Yes. There better have been. Tracy, and you are getting at why Star Wars has the cultural stranglehold it does, because it opens up these questions, these conversations. Tracy. We start thinking about Beans. You could write 10 Beans novels.

3:08:09Griffin Newman:my dad introduces me to star wars obviously as a sort of a right right you know i watch it like and then i'm obsessed with the trench run and yeah i only know it's like yeah there's the guy who gets shot immediately you know to prove that there will be deaths like where these guys are gonna blow up yeah i'm all right boom right that's put and then you like uh start to read books about star or like you get and you're like the guy's name is fucking porkins like they they couldn't been five minutes like figuring out a better name for this guy?

3:08:39David Sims:Yeah. This guy's got a squid head. What's his name? I don't know. He's a Mon Calamari. Why is Darth Vader in a ship? Why have we... Yes, he's in a little TIE fighter. What are you talking about? Have we been led to believe that Darth Vader is good at flying

3:08:53Griffin Newman:on these ships? So now what you're doing here is very interesting because it's sort of what we did when we started the show, which is like if you examine Star Wars without the further context, because like, of course, when you watch the prequels it's like, oh, he was a crack pilot. Everything's Backfield and explains. But like, you're right that the whole thing with Darth Vader in general in Star Wars, where it's like, there's a fascist empire. It is mostly run by British white men who are older and are kind of like, you should kill all of them. Who is this sadist robot who walks around among them with a cape?

3:09:26Griffin Newman:Everyone else is a fascist Nazi guy.

3:09:28David Sims:It's what's fascinating about... Is Peter Cushing, right? Darth Vader getting retroactively turned into like the greatest villain in cinema, where you're like, he was meant to be like the weird gimmicky Bond henchman. Yes. There's some big guy who's got an odd energy. Who is like, like, I just wish someone would be like,

3:09:43Griffin Newman:where are you on the org chart? Right. I'm a major. What are you? Why do you get a cake? What is Darth? Right. There's an emperor. Then there's some, you know, general. I understand all these things. Who are you? And so then it kind of makes sense that he's like, I'll get in my ship. Like, there's some ships.

3:10:00David Sims:Like, let's go. Right. Why is he getting a ship? Because it's like, that's the guy James Bond has to punch at the end because it's not satisfying to watch him punch Dr. No. Dr. No is like an intellectual.

3:10:10Griffin Newman:He is. He's not going to punch. Dr. No had a lot of good ideas out there. He's got good ideas. He's just trying to make America healthier. I stand by that take. I've rewatched Star Wars, the original trilogy with my son. He's liked them. He's watched them two, three times. But he's not been gripped by them. No. But he may be a little young for it. I mean, I saw them all in the movie theaters when they first came out. I was the right age. Right. Yeah, sure, sure. Well, the other thing with us... Eight is when I saw them, I think. I saw the re-release. You know, I've seen them already, but I was there for the re-releases in 97.

3:10:42Griffin Newman:Those were my first time seeing them. And I was 11, and that was perfect. It was everything. I couldn't believe how bad Phantom Menace was. I couldn't believe it. Phantom Menace is tough. Because, yeah. I had always been told it was bad. Finish your sentence. Because? Well, it's bubbling with some interesting ideas

3:11:03David Sims:and some bad ideas. This podcast only exists because of our obsession with that film and how we are constantly wrestling with it. How we would keep attacking it being like, are we going to like it this time? And we're not wrestling with is this good or not as much as what is going on here? And I contend it is the best of those three. So when it started, people were like, well, maybe he'll like, he's a little rusty. He'll regain his footing.

3:11:26Griffin Newman:I contend it's the best of the three. It's the best of the three now. I think the Padre sequence is wonderful. Which again, he's ripping off Ben-Hur, but like.

3:11:33David Sims:It feels similar to the Trench Run where he's taking a classical visual language of an epic cinema of past and applying it to future sci-fi.

3:11:42Griffin Newman:The thing that's happened with the prequels lately, you know, the prequels come out, they were hits, obviously, but they are derided. Reviled. Yes. And now that the Disney legacy sequels have come out and had their own life cycle, now the fans are like, well, the prequels are interesting because they are interesting. They are. They're weird. George Lucas is a weirdo.

3:11:58David Sims:They are outsider art.

3:11:59Griffin Newman:Right. They are made by a lunatic who can fund his own films at the highest level. Right. And so George Lucas was like, I want to sort of, you know, write about the fall of the Roman Empire, right? Like, I want to write about this sort of decline. How do fish just stick? But I also think there should be like a Jamaican fish alien because kids watch it. You know what I mean? And like in the original movies, you can see Lucas being tempered and that there's a lot of, you know, a lot of mature people around him as well. And the prequels, he's unfettered. So he's like, we'll have Jar Jar Binks. and no one at any point is like, this fucking sucks.

3:12:33Griffin Newman:Like, we cannot do this. That's part of the problem when you become as big as George Lucas. 100%. Nobody can tell you that's a bad idea. Now everyone reveres Lucas and I revere him too because there's nothing like him and God bless this thing. He did lots of interesting things. But I remember reading interviews with Mark Hamill at the time, like in the 90s, where he's like, he's the fucking Pope. Getting lunch with him is a day-long production. You can't have a conversation with him anymore where it's just like a regular, are like, hey, why are you, you know, like, and like, that's what, and so they're interesting objects in that way.

3:13:03Griffin Newman:Because like, when, how often does that happen in Hollywood? Never. Never. Literally never. So that's interesting. But are they like a good movie? No. But you, you know. Fascinating text. It sounds like your son watches a lot of goofy kaiju movies, which rock, but like they're silly too, right? Like it's like the right balance of silliness is something that can be hard to find. Right. Is the, like I said, the question is, is there a creature and especially are the creatures fighting?

3:13:26David Sims:not to spoil you I did additionally get two kaiju action figures for your children oh my god oh my god see you think the big picture ever did this there you go

3:13:37Griffin Newman:see this is we treat our guests right especially after we make them do a three hour plus episode this has been far too long we should really wrap up

3:13:43David Sims:that's a funky color Hedorah but then this is I think a really skeleton Godzilla after he is atomized from the end of the 54 movie at the bottom oh that's fantastic isn't that fucking cool I've never seen that He has a bigger Hedora, but he'll love you can't have it. He just had a Gamera themed eighth birthday party and got so many Gamera. The other kids from second grade walking into this being like... Has he converted other people? Or is his friends into Gamera? Not at all. They're all into K-pop demon hunters or whatever. Which he's never seen, doesn't know anything about. He goes over to a friend's house

3:14:20Griffin Newman:and he has no idea what... But he's not coming home being like, I must now watch K-Pop Team 100. Not at all. Everyone's talking about it at school or whatever. Well, that's great. I mean, it's great. I mean, I'm right at the start of this with my kids. Like, you know, the sort of like the larger osmosis. And you watch how it works. I have to say, I didn't do a lot of conditioning to get him kaiju crazy. Right. This isn't a thing where, this isn't like when parents are like, my kid's favorite band is The Clash. And you're like, okay, you know. I had the Criterion box of Godzilla, which has a big sort of comic book.

3:14:56I know I have it myself, of course. He became interested in those visuals before he could even read and page through that. And he went through that over and over. He memorized all the, I taught him the titles. He memorized all the titles. And then I said, well, if you like this so much, maybe we should watch one of the movies. And I put on one of the movies.

3:15:13David Sims:That's it.

3:15:13Griffin Newman:Immediately. That's it.

3:15:15David Sims:Because they are weird. Yeah. Like they're weird to watch. They're not like movies now. Your daughter, you haven't shown them.

3:15:21Griffin Newman:No, my daughter is quite fearful. She loves movies. And she loves Bowser, who is something of a kaiju.

3:15:26David Sims:I got her the big Godzilla toy, which she alternates between being scared. Well, now the big Godzilla toy

3:15:32Griffin Newman:is just a favored friend in our house. Griffin got her a Godzilla that's like large. How old again? My daughter's 54. But he got her this a couple years ago. And initially, yeah, sometimes the Godzilla had to be like put away. Yeah, right. Like it was a little.

3:15:45David Sims:And then Ben had to act like Godzilla was eating his finger. and that killed...

3:15:49Griffin Newman:That bit was...

3:15:50David Sims:Kill it. She plays like fucking death comedy. She needs you guys to come over again.

3:15:53Griffin Newman:She's been asking.

3:15:54David Sims:Hey! Hey, wow. Anytime.

3:15:56Griffin Newman:But, yeah, but she hasn't seen Godzilla yet.

3:15:59David Sims:I got one... She doesn't like

3:16:01Griffin Newman:when Ursula gets big in The Little Mermaid. Yes. That freaks her out. Yes. And so, that's also kaiju adjacent. So, I've been like, maybe large isn't your speed right now. But I also think

3:16:10David Sims:don't start with 54. Start with the movies where Godzilla's the good monster and he fights the bad monsters. Yes, right. I think maybe the first movie he watched was Destroy All Monsters. That I would say is the best starring part. Because then you also have the Minya in that one, right? The witch? And I was going to say the little baby Godzilla. Oh, yeah. Manila. Manila, yes.

3:16:31Griffin Newman:Oh, I know that one. That one's cute. He's cute. He's a good entry. I'm not even that deep on Godzilla. I like Mothra. Mothra's cool. Alright, so I want to shout out we have, I looked up our Indonesian listenership the last 12 months got about like 1 ,500 downloads. Really? So there's some folks out there. So we just want to shout out to our listeners. Very nice. Hello, Jakarta. What's up? Would love to visit. Sure. It just looks like I was like looking at Google Maps. It's quite stunning. If you're one of those 1 ,500, let us know

3:17:07David Sims:what the local comedy theater breakdown is. If there's a good opportunity for us to do a live show.

3:17:12Griffin Newman:Yeah. Yeah. Please do. Yes. Tracy, we've taken far too much of your time. Thank you so much. I can't believe this podcast is going to be four hours long. You're going to have to find some guts. It'll be 3.15, which unfortunately may not even crack top five.

3:17:27David Sims:It won't crack the 10, I don't think.

3:17:29Griffin Newman:The audience weirdly just demands longer and longer. I don't know why. You're a king amongst men. You are the boss, bitch. You guys are sweet. Have anything to plug? Is there a bug just ended its run on Broadway? Yeah, not plugging nothing. Ben went to see Bug, did you not? I loved it. Oh, thanks, man. I think it really captures the paranoia of being on drugs. Thanks. Bug rocks. No, nothing to plug. As I've said before, this is my job. The acting and the playwriting is hobby. That's just right. This is my job. You're plugging physical media

3:18:05David Sims:and the value of owning the films you care about. You plugged a beautiful,

3:18:08Griffin Newman:but you guys, yes, Tracy has spoken very well of why it's great to own a disc. But, you know, our fans already know that, I would say.

3:18:16David Sims:I will tell you, as someone with a, unfortunately, an overwhelming amount of anxiety, most times in my life, I'm constantly trying to find different pieces of media that can function as a bomb for me. Things that, for whatever reason, physiologically, just calm me down, slower the heart rate. Slower the heart rate. Slow down the heart rate. We need that. long-form interviews with you have started really doing the trick. You got a great voice. Very nice. You got a great voice. But thank you for being here. We will absolutely force you to come back again. We will hold you to your openness. And thank you all for listening.

3:18:56David Sims:Please remember to rate, review, and subscribe. Tune in next week for Witness with Amanda Dobbins, Dob Mob for Life. We're just doing it. He's crossing the ocean. He's coming over to Hollywood. Yep, this episode,

3:19:08Griffin Newman:this series has Dobbins, it has Sean, it has Hitmaker. It's got all the big boys. Yeah. Yeah.

3:19:14David Sims:Thanks, y 'all. Thank you. As always. And as always, I have to ask because I almost bought it. Have you seen slash do you own slash has your son seen the Roland Emmerich Godzilla? No. And is that a forceful blocking him from that experience? No. In fact, when he turned eight, I said to him, you can now watch any Godzilla movie. If Godzilla's in it, you can watch it. Wow. That had not been the case before he was eight. That's like the best version of like the birds and the bees talk. You're old enough to start understanding the world. I was like, he was limited for a long time to the Showa era and then I expanded to the Heisei era, but now he can watch any Godzilla movie.

3:19:56Wow.

3:19:57David Sims:If he ever watches it, please let us know because I think he will hate it. But I was curious. I didn't want to infect your collection with the disc. I don't think it's a good film. Much like Phantom Menace, I've always been fascinated by how broken it is. But I saw it about his age and really struggled with why it didn't make me happy.

3:20:22Griffin Newman:Blank Check with Griffin and David is hosted by Griffin Newman and David Sims. Our executive producer is me, Ben Hosley. Our creative producer is Marie Barty Salinas. And our associate producer is AJ McKeon. This show is mixed and edited by AJ McKeon and Alan Smithy Research by J.J. Birch Our theme song is by Lane Montgomery in the Great American Novel With additional music by Alex Mitchell Artwork by Joe Bowen, Ollie Moss, and Pat Reynolds Our production assistant is Minnick Special thanks to David Cho, Jordan Fish, and Nate Patterson for their production help Head over to BlankCheckPod.com for links to all of the real nerdy shit Join our Patreon, Blank Check Special Features, for exclusive franchise commentaries and bonus episodes.

3:21:07Follow us on social at Blank Check Pod. Subscribe to our weekly newsletter, Checkbook, on Substack. This podcast is created and produced by Blank Check Productions.