Witness with Amanda Dobbins

12:29David Sims:Women only get 33.3 % of the podcast appearances that men get. It's true, but I'm back. You're back. I'm done. Amanda Dobbins for the big picture. You done. I am out. O-U-T.

12:41Griffin Newman:No, this is what I want to talk about. Of having children, not of Blaine Chet. No, no, no, no, no. This is the beginning. Amanda and I are just connecting on this moment. Because it is a real, like, you draw the heavy line. I'm just declaring it in many places as possible. No, no, no. Much like Peter Weir, that was my Australian new wave face. Here I am. Hollywood baby. Harrison Ford is John Book.

13:03David Sims:Yes. Is me. Now here's the other part of it Now your second appearance I feel like these are two of the three movies I hear you cite the most As feeling like the most impactful On your development as like A movie fan and a movie watcher Absolutely It has now created a standard Which isn't to say we can't have you on for something else But it feels like in both of these cases Oh that's true

13:28Griffin Newman:Thomas Crown of Witness Formative

13:30David Sims:We lock on the director and I say to David Dobbins and we just text you and you immediately text back all caps. Absolutely. It was just an obvious slam dunk. So these are also films that like were successful. Yes. At the time, but are not canonized. They're a little forgotten. In the, in the, in the general letterboxd film nerd.

13:54Griffin Newman:Yes. I guess that's a good way to put it. But they were, they were important to my cinematic development. And I've got a whole lot more of those. Have you guys done Run Howard yet? No, we have not. Apollo 13. Like, just book it right now.

14:06David Sims:The other one I was, John, book it. The other one I was going to say, I feel like in that trilogy is Working Girl. I feel like Working Girl, Witness, and Thomas Crown of Hair. Like, three to 5 ,000. Yes. Are the three I always hear you say. And I have one more for you. Okay. Even though I'm pretty sure, well, first of all, like, have you done Rob Reiner? No. Okay, well.

14:28Griffin Newman:Because here's the whole issue with Rob Reiner. I know, it falls off a cliff. It falls off a cliff. It falls off a cliff, but that's fine. We could do pre-Cliff Reiner. First of all, I hosted what I believe was my 10th, maybe 11th birthday party at the movie theater to see North. Wow. But that's not my pick. A movie that is a stealth witness sequel? Sure, but it's off the cliff. Yes. North is the beginning. It's the cliff. Right. Sure. But American President is another one. American President is after North, I believe, in his filmography. And so that's when he pulls the parachute and it deploys.

15:05Griffin Newman:Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he's like, American President. And he's like, I still got it.

15:08David Sims:The parachute starts to catch on fire. The parachute works. He just happens to land inside of a volcano.

15:14Griffin Newman:Yeah, yeah. American President, I know, is a big one for you. Right. I would love to do that. But so, you know, there is a whole. There's there are others. There's others.

15:22David Sims:It just feels like we've gotten two huge ones.

15:24Griffin Newman:But, you know, in Apollo 13, American President and Thomas Crown Affair, that's, and we're similar ages, like, that's, you're, you know, becoming, like, a teenager, like, these are movies from the mid-90s that we watched, same for me. Witness is from the 80s. Yeah. And Witness, maybe for you, it was for me, was a home video. Oh, absolutely. I think you're kind of ready for this movie because this is like a, you know, you know, there's in a perfect world, this would be rated, I guess, like, well, in the sort of the British rating, like this is kind of a rated 15 movie, right? Where it's like a little violence.

15:57Griffin Newman:Yeah. It has one pair of tits. It has a hint of nudity.

16:00David Sims:It's got a single pair of tits.

16:01Griffin Newman:But like, by and large, it's not too intense. And it's it's it's adult, but it's sort of like, you know, you can engage with it as a teenager.

16:09David Sims:It also falls into the category of if you're interested in watching this, you're old enough to watch this. Right. Right.

16:16Griffin Newman:Hey, this movie has zero lasers. And you're like, yeah, well, I don't know.

16:20David Sims:You're going to have to really lock in to get to the boobs. And the boobs are going to make you a little emotionally confused.

16:25Griffin Newman:Yeah. And right. It's a movie about no exciting violence. Oh, is it about how the Amish are super weird? No, it's kind of engaging with them as a community in a mature way.

16:35David Sims:It is the mildest kind of culture shock comedy. Right. In how like. The gentlest comedy. Definitely. It is underplayed. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there is one stabbing at the beginning. There is. Yeah. Or like throat slashing, I guess. It's a throat slashing. It's pretty tame. There's a shootout at the end. Like, you know, there's -

16:53Griffin Newman:Someone drowns in corn. Dramatic corn. If you showed this to a 10-year-old, they would go over their head. As you know, I live with two young men who are. So there's that aspect of it. Maybe I should just show them the barn scene. Barn raising. On YouTube. They might like it. That's a great one. The barn raising is one of those things where you're like, this is real? You know, when you're a young person, right? Yes, even still. I mean and I Well so also I grew up Speaking of the 80s In like the first wave American girl doll Situations And so And so I had a Kirsten Okay And she's from like Minnesota She's She's Midwestern And it's like But she's like a Scandinavian Immigrant Swedish girl from 1845 Yeah And like And they came with a set of books You know And there was one that was like How did this person How is this person The introductory one There's like a birthday one, a Christmas one.

17:46I'm sure I'm like a school one, probably.

17:48David Sims:Yeah. Like, and anyway, like a party one. I don't know. There was one about a barn raising.

17:54Griffin Newman:Oh, interesting. And they like had a barn raising and then like a party in the barn. And this, so Witness was like really important to me in terms of visually realizing this event that I had only read about in the context.

18:09David Sims:So the doll predates. Of the original six box set. Yes. Kirsten American Girl doll series. Can we talk about how messy the American Girl doll canon has gotten? I can't keep up. Because it used to be tight. The normies can't find an entry point.

18:24Griffin Newman:You got to do homework just to pick up one doll? And there's like a 2000s one where she likes Chumba Wumba? Like, what is this? But also, apparently, they just introduced that Samantha, another of the originals. The classic one. You know, the original three, there was, it was a pretty singular demographic. Sure. You know, which was, you know. Little white girl? White ladies with means. Mm-hmm. So it's good that they expanded the bounds. Right. But apparently, Samantha, one of the originals, now has a great-granddaughter who you can buy.

18:57David Sims:Yeah, they're like trying to do.

18:59Griffin Newman:Let's not do this. I don't know what she's up to.

19:02David Sims:But the Samantha doll isn't like 80 now, right? You're like dealing with Samantha. Samantha is frozen in time. That's what I'm saying. The idea of like dealing with two child dolls in different temporalities, it's if it's fucking frequency. You know what? I'm just I this is how diseased my brain is. But just right now, I was thinking about like, yeah, the Poshmark market for American girls doll stuff must be probably like Valhalla. It must be the most incredible thing because I had that catalog. I was just thinking about Samantha's tea set and the little like iced cupcakes or glazes. Or like maybe it's ice cream because her thing is she makes ice cream, you know?

19:42Griffin Newman:They make dolls for the dolls. I'm well aware. It's a... Is your daughter now getting into it? Not yet, but I mean, those are on cold storage. Like those are a waiting curve because, you know, my wife, I think, had a couple and then her sister had a couple. This is a family of girls. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they're all just, you know, locked away. My daughter's still, I think, too young to fully engage with them. Totally. And she's obviously also just all the way in on Spider-Man and mostly cares about what Green Goblin is up to, not what Kid Kittredge was up to. That is healthier. You know? I guess so.

20:16Griffin Newman:But they're coming. Yeah, they're coming. And then maybe one day I'll be on Poshmark. But the tea set was like little wicker chairs and it had all the accoutrements. It was so beautiful. And I'm just like, their resale market must be... Amazing. Like, I think I feel right now the way that Sean feels when talking about physical media. I'm just like, I can't imagine the possibilities. My question for you is, do you have yours? Are they in a box? And like, now that you had two sons, not to be binary, is it possible, right, that these will not be in use? I would absolutely bring it home if they wanted to.

20:52My mom, bless her, did her downsizing on her own a couple years ago. And she didn't. First of all, she gave away all my babysitter's clubs like 15 years ago. And I had like a full set. I mean, I wasn't like, you know, I wasn't up to date, but it was originals like one through one, 25, like first edition. Like I was on that shit. I wonder what happened to my goosebumps. And then she didn't check in about the American Girl dolls. So I don't know about that. We do, the boys do have my Cabbage Patch Clifton. Sure. Interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that seemed, because I think my mom thought that was a little more gender neutral.

21:27So then you're getting into generational.

21:29David Sims:Right, then you're dealing with the grandparents' opinions on what dolls should be played with by what children. Just to clarify, when your mom downsizes, you move into leisure land? Yeah. Is that a downsizing reference?

21:41Griffin Newman:David, because we're coming up on Halloween, I just have one question. Are you going to allow your daughter to throw pumpkins? Throw? Oh, because she's Green Goblin? Oh, because she's into Goblin. Oh, yeah.

21:50David Sims:Well, but she's like...

21:51Griffin Newman:And I don't say we should light them on fire.

21:53David Sims:No, but she might be confused. She might be confused if she sees a little pumpkin.

21:56Griffin Newman:Yeah. There's a lot of little pumpkins around. She loves little pumpkins. Yeah, you know all the stuff. Gobby. Yeah, but she knows that Green Goblin, again, is like a sort of gentle mischief maker, not a promocidal maniac. Okay, that's good. That's when it kills girls. I don't think she's going to like meeting Willem Dafoe. Like, whenever that day comes for her when she's like nine years old.

22:18David Sims:You always think your kid's not going to like meeting Willem Dafoe, and yet when you get there, it's just in time.

22:22Griffin Newman:Like, this to me seems like the only downside of the Spidey and his amazing friends that like later when I'm like, so here's Green Goblin. She's like, that's not my Green Goblin. He is not ruining Mother's Day. Like he is.

22:33David Sims:Do you know about this show, Amanda? I do. Are your sons infected with this? No, they don't. So what happened, so my children go to a Montessori school, so no characters allowed at school. No characters. Wow.

22:43Griffin Newman:Your kid can't show up with like a Snoopy snuffy. No, no branding. Yeah, yeah. So that has sort of like delayed things a little, but he did come home the other day and, or a couple weeks ago and he was like, Dad, I want to watch Batman. Sure. And my husband instinctively was like, I don't know what that is. And he's like, I've never heard of this.

23:05David Sims:And then my three and a half year old son was like, Dad, it's a beautiful film. I want to see it. And my dad and Zach was like, well, we don't have that here. You know, I guess like, you know, I don't know. Maybe I'll look into it, but we can't watch it right now. And for now, that was acceptable to him. Yeah, but he does also think Tom Cruise is coming to his birthday party. So I don't really know.

23:27Griffin Newman:Like from, like he thinks Maverick will show up. No, no, no. Because now he's really into like parachutes and stuff. So now I like show him Tom, I show him the making of featurettes. Right, yeah. But here's the thing. Because he's so young and he's, the featurettes are much better because they show Tom Cruise practicing.

23:48David Sims:Yeah. And then they show like all the safety measures. Right, right. And it is every time right before they go to the final stunt, he whispers to me, I'm going to like this, right? And I'm like, you will like it because he can do it. And, you know, I keep saying, like, look how safe he is. Look how they're practicing. But so, no, he now understands Tom Cruise as Tom Cruise. Yeah. And so he does think he's coming to his birthday party. I don't know what to do about that. Sure. But we haven't gotten to Spidey and Friends yet. they'll be there for you

24:21Griffin Newman:whenever you need because they're heroes

24:24David Sims:I've turned this out to Sims I don't think we've said this on Mike but I'm really curious if there's going to be a thing 15 years from now where the entire generation who grew up on the show because basically everyone I know with a kid under 8 is like my life is infected with Spidey and his amazing friends if the movies are going to have to adjust to that canon in the way that David is joking where they're like Well, my version of Spider-Man is constantly vexed by Green Goblin stealing his lunch. Okay. And I need to see that in the movies. I've been waiting my entire life to see it in live action.

25:00I mean, they're tiptoeing that way. It's all going to happen. I guess it's true. What happened? Like, people die in the last one. That's sad.

25:08Griffin Newman:Yeah. Rip. Yeah. Marissa Tomei blown into a wall. I was really sad about that. She looked so good, too. She looked so good. She was honestly killed for the crime of hotness. Yeah. That Aunt May was just too hot. What culture came from.

25:24David Sims:Look, I will say this. Just connect threads here, right?

25:28Griffin Newman:Yeah. Instagram threads.

25:29David Sims:Ben Hosley and I, producer Ben, we're on Daily Zeitgeist podcast.

25:33Griffin Newman:Yeah. Is that an LA or a New York podcast? LA podcast. Okay, okay.

25:38David Sims:And Jack asked us, he was sort of speed rounding like movie conversation talking points that he was like, I listen to your show and I've wanted to have these discussions with you guys. And he was like the whole thing of like movies becoming sexless. Right. And like what is perpetuating this? Is this a younger generation that is skittish about it? Is it about the studios? Is it about movies translating overseas or whatever? We litigated this whole thing. Right. Yeah. The thing I really locked into was I think what is less discussed isn't like in the 80s, Michael Douglas used to fuck everyone against a wall and now there's no sex in anything.

26:11David Sims:What I feel like is under discussed is the witness thing of like every movie used to just have this level of sexual tension in it. Oh, I thought you were going to say every movie used to have just like one pair of tits. And it like wasn't a big deal.

26:26Griffin Newman:I think that was part of it. I do think that is a little, I mean, look, films still have nudity. Yeah. But like not in the, but it's, if they do, it's like a, ooh, like come see so-and-so's, you know. and come see someone's dick now because the men will also be full frontal. There are many more dicks. Yeah. I can't deny that. It's more common to see a dick. But this is sort of just like a European like, oh, okay. Well, like there they are.

26:52David Sims:I think there was some of that. It's the human body. Look, there were also many movies in the 80s and 90s that were built entirely on look at how many tits you're going to see and they were not presented in a European way. But I do, I kept while watching this movie again last night thinking about the Marvel, like everyone is beautiful and nobody fucks thing. Where you're like, this is the exact inverse of that. In that like, here you have, I feel like you've said it many times, I'm inclined to agree, Harrison Ford, the best he has ever looked on screen. It's this and Working Girl, right? It's this and Working Girl.

27:22David Sims:Which are back to back. We can talk about it. They are, so this is like his ideal phase of life. Yes.

27:28Griffin Newman:I would agree. I mean, how old would he have been? He would have been like - He's like 40. He's like 43. He's got to live. 42, 43.

27:34David Sims:No, I know. and hey, that's fine. All power too. But this I feel like even more so than Working Girl because Working Girl has the like movie sheen on it. Uh-huh. Like for how much he is genetically blessed and is taking great care of himself. Harrison Ford does look like a real person in this movie. 100%. It is that amazing thing where you can see someone who has like movie star fucking like, you know. Right. glow and yet the movie doesn't make them like perfectly groomed and hairless and poreless what

28:10Griffin Newman:I gotta stop you here it's not just what you're talking about this is the first time he plays a guy in today in the world in a movie basically I mean excluding you know as a leading man little movies that he did early on but like since he has become a star sure and done like you know the run of like Star Wars Apocalypse Now briefly obviously Frisco Kid Emperor Strikes Back Raiders Blade Runner Return of the Jedi Temple of Doom Yeah but that's that's pretty you know I'm just saying that's a leading man I'm saying like this is like Harrison Ford is in our world Yeah Right? Working Girl is 88 I forgot I always think it's 86 so that's a little later This is 84?

28:48Griffin Newman:It's 85 Wow 85 Wow But like this is the first time that we have seen him wearing regular clothes Yeah Yeah Drinking a cup Well sort of Hot Joe Hot Joe Well he does of course then go plain Right Mmhmm He goes plane mode. Plane mode. Sure. Plane on main. The cut of those pants is very contemporary, though, in a funny way. It is true. It is very late millennial, except he is wearing socks. But yes, the high cut and then obviously the crop, you know, showing some ankle.

29:16David Sims:I was just watching all the special features on, not to tempt you, Amanda, but this lovely premium witness. I know. Tracy Letts gave out two copies and neither was to me. I texted him after the.

29:28Griffin Newman:I mean, you weren't even present for that virginity convention. You know, I'm saying this is a good object.

29:33David Sims:This doesn't look like a GameStop. This is a good object. I mean, that's true. You hear the knock of this? Not plastic. So one thing as you're sitting there and I'm in the same room with you as you knock on it. A lot of things on my desk. There is like, we've gotten the plastic. That's not plastic. And you guys talk a lot about steelbooks. You got the metal ones. We love the steelbooks. But the symmetry of it, it still just is a box, you know? And it's just like they're like rows of boxes, you know, and it all just kind of looks like boxes. So that's another thing that you want a different form factor.

30:07That's that's my feedback.

30:08David Sims:I know this is Sean's case. But when you have something like this, Sean's argument, I should say rather for this type of case. Yeah. It's like a hardback slip. Right. Hardback slip is that then it starts to look more like a book. But you're not buying that. John book. But but there's still all like it's it's the aesthetics. of when they're lined up. Interesting. And they're all like flat and the edges are rounded and they just, you know. You dislike that. Yeah, I don't. I think that you need more texture. You need more variety for it to look. It starts to look a little, it looks flat. I agree.

30:49Griffin Newman:And where's the steel? I true. I also, I mean, I keep hearing about the steelbooks. Don't know if I've ever seen one IRO. I see no shine. I see no texture. I see no metal. Yeah. But it's like, think about a bookcase where, you know, okay, oh, we're holding a steel book. Okay, now I'm holding a steel book. Oh, it's a master and commander steel book. Okay. So. But what if it was wearing a hat? Ben, I would agree with you that, first of all, I don't know how to open this.

31:18David Sims:It's a little tug there. Yeah, it might be a little tight in that center. This isn't like the steel that built the American railroads, you know? It's a steel rail. You know what?

31:27Griffin Newman:When you open it up, it's plastic guts. You ain't wrong. You can't drive a train down them discs. It's true.

31:34David Sims:I think if it was American railroad steel, everyone's shelves would be collapsing all the time. But think about a bookcase that looks good to you. Yes. You know? Uh-huh. It is almost never all of the same size, binding, color, all in a row. Like the sets look weird. And you can tell when someone does not have a book collection and they have a large bookcase and they buy one of like the old gaudy sets. And you're just like, oh, that looks kind of like fake and unused. I love that we're having this conversation. There's like a symmetry to what's going on with the display of physical media that I find aesthetically offensive.

32:14David Sims:Now, let me say this, Amanda. Yes. Your podcast co-host, Sean Fennessey. Yes. The king of the symmetrical stack, right? Yeah. The photos are everything has to be lined up perfectly, right? Not on his shelves, but when he's posting like doing my Spike Lee research. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Perfect stack. Yeah. A lot of physical media collectors like ourselves want the perfect symmetry on the shelf. They want everything the same. And in fact, it will drive them crazy if a movie is released in a different form factor that's not going to line up. I do know that. I don't feel this way. I'm with you where I like, I wouldn't say a messy shelf, but I like the variety.

32:50David Sims:I like the idea of like peaks and valleys and different shapes and and like Criterion will do this sometimes where they'll be like we tried something different with the packaging and people people go ballistic. They put out Trainspotting in a like a package that they were like this is a reference to 90s like British promotional CDs and it was thinner and taller. Yeah. And people lost their fucking minds. And I'm like good give it to me. Make it all look different. But I do think that some of it, people have different tastes and people have different aesthetics. And Sean is, bless him, a neat freak and a quote unquote minimalist.

33:32And his house is clean lines.

33:35Griffin Newman:I was about to say, right. And he doesn't like things out. And I live in a sea of books. And if I could have 18 different prints and patterns in one room. This is how I live in life.

33:48David Sims:Embrace the chaos. I would like the Marie Antoinette set designer to come to my house next, you know? So it is purely at some point like I prefer this color to this color. I prefer this look to this look. But I find the symmetry unnerving. And it does not soothe me. I don't disagree with you. It freaks me out. Look at this big chunky picnic at Hanging Rock. Look at this. No plastic here. You know what I'm saying? I'm going to open the doc. I got the novel in here. The book is in the set. I'm sorry. I am here as a chaos monster. I'm not helping you. You know, I'm not. Be a chaos monster, please.

34:24I didn't even bring my laptop. You know the kind of guests we have sometimes? I know, but I just. You're no monster. You know, Sean usually keeps me. Like, I try sometimes to stay on the tracks, but here I'm just like, let's talk about. We're pulling a rip for it. Let's talk about Steelbooks.

34:39Griffin Newman:That's why we like to be in person.

34:51David!

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35:51Griffin Newman:It's a triptych, right? There's a New Jersey section, a Dublin section, a Paris section. Obviously, Jarmusch has done some such storytelling before, Night on Earth and such. Coffee and cigarettes, Griffin.

36:02David Sims:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. It's about the relationships between adult children. They're somewhat distant parent or parents and each other. I simply cannot relate.

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36:44Griffin Newman:I want to tell you guys something you might not know. Peter Weir's from Australia. Really? Did you guys know that? What? Peter Weir grew up in Australia, is Australian, made many Australian films. The hat trick. But he did like American movies and was kind of raised on them. How can you not, right? Hollywood. It's all over the world. Hollywood, sure. And so pretty quickly in his career, he says around when he made The Last Wave which is his third film he starts kind of getting an eye on it he's like you know this town isn't big enough like you know he's starting to get a little sick of the sort of scale of Australian projects right the extent to which

37:24David Sims:especially in the 80s it's not the start of but there's a real surge in if someone makes an interesting film in a foreign country that crosses over a little bit time to bring them over to Hollywood and slot them into the machine you know I think there's a little bit less of everyone works in their own country and more of eventually we're getting you over here.

37:45Griffin Newman:The Thorn Birds, the 19, what is it, like 1980 film? The Thorn Birds. You guys know this film? Yes. Based on a, I don't know. This film? No, it was a miniseries. It was a miniseries. Based on the Australian novel by Colleen McCullough. Because that was Richard Chamberlain as well? Well, it's being set up initially as a film that was going to be directed by Herbert Ross and star Robert Redford, rest in peace. And Herbert Ross was, I think, getting old, and so he was being pushed aside, and they were like, maybe you can do this, and you're Australian, right? You'll get it set in the Outback. You'll get it.

38:24Griffin Newman:And he circled it, but wasn't that interested, so he backed off, and eventually that got shunted to miniseries as 1983 is when it came out. With his recent leading man. Right. From The Last Wave. And instead, Weir does two more Australian films. He does Gallipoli. And he does Year of Living Dangerously, which is an Australian production. But MGM has a little bit of money in it. And so it's sort of like half a step into Hollywood. And Mel Gibson is like not quite a Hollywood star yet, but is about to be. I was going to say.

38:55David Sims:It's all inching. It is interesting that Mel Gibson kind of functions as that turnkey for both George Miller and Peter Weir. Where they had worked with him before and he was crossing over. and it was like, if you can get Mel again, you get to make a movie that's like half Hollywood.

39:13Griffin Newman:Now, moving on from him for a second, back to Witness. This was originally called Called Home, which is what the Amish refer to dying as being called home.

39:22David Sims:Sure.

39:23Griffin Newman:It's a good title when you have that explained to you. On its face, it is quite a bad title. It's not a great title. Romance novelist Pamela Wallace and her husband Earl W. Wallace, who is a guy who worked on the TV show Gunsmoke for a long time had rented a home in Amish country. They'd kind of gotten interested in the Amish and they start working on a screenplay that would be about an Amish woman falling for a big city guy. Okay? Makes sense. Earl Wallace brings in a guy called William Kelly

39:53David Sims:who also worked on Gunsmoke. That movie was going to be called Not Working Girl. I was trying to see if I could draft a better wording of it in my head and I just gave up and, you know, yeah.

40:02Griffin Newman:Knocked it out there. that guy had worked on like westerns and stuff how the west was won he has a credit on this screenplay ends up in the hands of a producer called Edward Feldman in 1983 it's like 180 pages it's very heavy on like Amish life right it's very invested in all of that but they're nonetheless interested and he options it yeah he options it he has a first look deal at Fox at the time and the head of Fox at the time Joe Weisan takes a look at it and says, we don't do rural movies, which is quite a line. You're always hearing about execs saying things like that. Yeah. We don't do rural.

40:41Griffin Newman:What does that mean? We can't leave the city like ever? What are you talking about?

40:46David Sims:I mean, as he puts it, he read the script. He was like, this concept is great. It's really overwritten. And he makes a deal with them where he's going to pay the writers$25 ,000 to have a one-year option and get a rewrite out of them. Right. And that he doesn't have to pay them the remaining$225 ,000 unless it actually gets greenlit. And so he runs downstairs and he's like, I'm excited. I just made a great deal. Look at how great of a deal maker I am. And they were like, what the fuck is this rural trash?

41:19Griffin Newman:So they do the rewrite. He brings it back to Fox. He gets the same answer. We don't do rural pictures. He sends the script to Harrison Ford's agent on a Thursday. By Monday, Ford was on board.

41:31David Sims:And he was like, Rural picture, huh?

41:32Griffin Newman:And they're like, yeah, no, we still feel this way about it. Put it in turnaround. But he takes it, rural picture with Harrison Ford. Yes. And they still don't want to do it. No, but it's crazy. Yeah. Takes it to Warner Brothers. Warner Brothers is like, Harrison Ford is too expensive. Takes it to MGM who says Harrison Ford can't act. Which I guess is what I'm trying to say about, like, it's like, I guess he'd only been in these genre films and maybe there's still some impression of like, oh, he just does these big budget distractions like they're, you know, he doesn't play a real guy. he has like a one-liner and, you know, then jumps over something.

42:06David Sims:This is his lone Oscar nomination as an actor. It's so much of this movie's legacy. And I think he's phenomenal in this. But it's also like not his best performance and you, in my opinion, might be. I do think it might be his best performance. You, you step back and you're like, that nomination more than anything was Hollywood going like, okay, we admit.

42:27Griffin Newman:You know what you're doing. It's definitely Hollywood doing that, but I think it's arguably his best performance.

42:36David Sims:It remains rude that this is his only nomination. And I was also just going through the math of like, he has been in eight Best Picture nominees, I think. Right. He also, you know, the Oscars and Hollywood in general don't tend to valorize the kind of movie star acting. He's not a Transformer. In Indiana Jones and in Star Wars and like even in The Fugitive. Yeah. Where though they gave Tommy Lee an Oscar for that. And he was not even nominated, which is insane. That's a little bizarre where you're like, oh, there are like four, three acting nominations for Working Girl and he gets snubbed. Like things like that.

43:13David Sims:The Fugitive snub is tough. They're snotty about box office stuff. It's a really crazy year. They still are snotty about box office stuff. They still are. You know, the Oscars in particular. So I think this is his like quote unquote best capital A acting performance. And, you know, I guess he does like jump over stuff. But it like, you know, like a couple of times or like or, you know, like dives into some corn or whatever. The way he always self-deprecatingly refers to it is I'm good at falling down. Right. But it's like it's it's not the full Harrison Ford experience. No, no, it's not. It's a very important bridge film in that sense.

43:51David Sims:But that's what he was looking for. You know, I mean...

43:54Griffin Newman:Yes, to carry on. Yes, you're right. He's looking for that. He apparently does not want to work for Universal. They had replaced him with Mel Gibson on a project that J.J. guesses was maybe the film The River. So he's pissed off at Universal. But Paramount is interesting. Yes. The only one of guys left.

44:12David Sims:And also was in the middle of making a ton of money off Indiana Jones for him. this is he's basically signing on to this movie as temple of doom is filming i believe sure yes

44:24Griffin Newman:exactly uh year of living dangerously is just coming out and feldman the producer goes to see that and is like i want that guy peter weir but peter weir is prepping the mosquito coast which is at warner brothers and of course will come out after witness eventually uh jack nicholson is attached to that. Yes. And so while they are, you know, like they're like, okay, they cycle through some other directors. Peter Yates, but it doesn't happen. Arthur Penn, Paramount's not interested. John Battam says no. These are all guys at the time.

44:57David Sims:The woman who directed Testament.

45:00Griffin Newman:Okay.

45:02David Sims:Do you know that movie, which I've never seen, which is like a post-apocalyptic movie with Lynn Litman, the Jane Alexander film. Okay. I know she was attached at one point because that movie is Lucas Haas' debut and she's the one who recommended Lucas Haas. Yeah, that a lot of people from Testament end up working on this film because she had brought them on. Interesting. But yes, they're cycling through many, many directors. But then what happens? Mosquito Coast falls apart. He's like overseas scouting. Yes. And he said it was the first time that it happened where it was like he thought he was going to be filming in two months and the movie completely falls apart.

45:37Griffin Newman:And Weir is no interest in this movie in particular, but it's like, I think I just need a job, and I think maybe I need to do something I'm not obsessed with. Because he's kind of obsessed with the Skeetor.

45:46David Sims:It goes back to the Hollywood thing, right? That he was a guy who was attracted to the idea of a Hollywood career, not in terms of just like, can I buy a beach house? But that he goes to his rep and says like, I think I want to be an assignment filmmaker. I want to try the old Hollywood thing. Find me a picture that is greenlit. Right, exactly. What's basically a go picture with a script that seems solid? And it wasn't just that he wanted to be filming something. It was also that he was like, I kind of like the challenge of seeing what's the thing with all the pieces put together and what can I bring to it?

46:15David Sims:He brings him three scripts and Witness is the one he likes. The last twist. Yeah.

46:21Griffin Newman:Is that Redford suddenly is like, I want to do Witness. This looks good. Makes sense. It does make sense. And he'd probably be good. He wants to star? Star. Okay. He doesn't want to direct. But because Weir has come aboard partly, I think. I think there's just heat around Weir, too. You know? Weir's living dangerously is his thing. And he kind of tries to muscle in. And Feldman is like, no, we're committed to Ford. We are ready to go. You know what I mean? It's like, I'm not fucking with this again. It's tempting, but it could be a disaster. The thing with Redford also is he's a big control freak.

46:59Griffin Newman:He's going to take over in ways that maybe you don't anticipate. So, like you're saying, Weir kind of likes it. It's like, this is studio filmmaking. Yes, this has some cliches in it. Yes, I don't really know anything about Amish country, but I'm just going to do my best job.

47:16David Sims:But it's also him kind of coveting that era of filmmaking, you know, and what good came out of it of just being like, if I really have my bones as his director, couldn't I be someone who can slot into something like this and find a way to make it personal? and basically his process at that point is just like cut 60 pages out of the script

47:35Griffin Newman:well it's more and it's the same thing we talk about this on the Dead Poets Society episode I think it comes up over and over again he's like let's pull out some of the violence it's too much let's make the love story less overt rather than like a full romance yeah suggested rather than shown he has the guts to not lean too hard on these like very dramatic elements to be like no we don't need it we don't need it and apparently the producers are freaking out Because they're like, that's the juicy stuff. Are you sure?

48:03David Sims:But he's a big, like, don't use music unless you need to. If you can convey it in a look, take all the dialogue out, guy.

48:09Griffin Newman:Because Dead Poets Society, to spoil, originally ended with Robin Williams dying of cancer. Right. And he was keeping that a secret the whole time. Right, exactly.

48:18David Sims:This doesn't need a different morbid twist. Right, right, right. This doesn't actually have to be a soap opera. But you read that this original script had them having a full sex scene that plays out on camera. that the line that I butchered in the opening was like a multi-page conversation and there was similarly a multi-page monologue at the end of the film saying goodbye. You know, and he's just like, none of that is necessary. He also directly invoked in some of the interviews I was finding that like he was obsessed with the Hays Code era, that you have early Hollywood that's super fucking horny, then the Hays Code comes in and all these movies are restricted, but they're overflowing with sexual tension.

49:00David Sims:Right. And he was like, I found those films more sexually charged when there was a thing that couldn't be said and the movie's boxed in and has to find another way to express it. And when you're dealing with a culture that is like repressed and plain, it's a very good match. And he was just like, I think the most erotic version of this movie, if the motor at the center is their attention, is the one in which they're not saying the thing. Yeah. I mean, it's like, it's showing, not telling. It's restraint as, you know, additive. It's like it is not an instinct that we have really in any type of culture right now, but certainly not in filmmaking.

49:38You know, I mean, people fucking lost their minds when they didn't kiss at the end of Twisters.

49:42Griffin Newman:Yes. I didn't think it. Well, I mean, I'm very on the record for what should have happened in Twisters. Tell us. You should have fucked more Tierney. Sure. Yeah. I mean, same. I like cheered when she showed up.

49:53David Sims:That's the mom. Yeah. Don't we kind of believe that maybe he did? Yeah, well, there's a rating on the film.

50:00Griffin Newman:It's slightly more textual.

50:01David Sims:Because why was he already at the bar?

50:02Griffin Newman:Exactly, where she's like, I kind of have a crush on this guy more. And he's like, you should. And I would know. Comes in with a towel around his neck. Right, exactly. Twisters.

50:11David Sims:A film I have. Poof. Forgotten, I gotta admit. Pleasant time. Yeah, sure. But everything has to be spoon-fed to people. Yes. You know? And audiences are angry if it's not explicitly spoon-fed to them. if the film's thesis is not, like, said aloud. I will also say, yes, yes, a big bugbear of mine. I'll also say my problem with Twisters is that I'm like, them not kissing at the end feels like a reference to movies not doing that rather than a thing the movie itself has earned. It feels like someone's like, you don't be cool as if they didn't kiss, because remember, and then cited six movies where that happened, rather than the movie being constructed around in a way that witnesses where you're just like, there's an hour and a half before Kelly McGillis and Harrison Ford kiss where you are exploding, where you're so aware of the fact that the movie is consciously avoiding that.

51:06Yeah, I mean, I don't mean to imply that whatever's going on in Twisters is any way on the level of what's going on between Harrison Ford and, yeah, like Kelly Riley. Like, it's not, I just, that was a recent example of people being mad on that.

51:19David Sims:Oh, totally, totally. But that's, if you want to get away with doing this kind of thing, you have to do it intentionally. Yeah. And it's like Peter Weir isn't just doing like, I don't care. Get it out of here. Like he's very deliberate in what he's pulling and what he's replacing it with. Right. It's show don't tell. You have to be smart about the show. Yeah. You have to land the show. Right. But but I think this does.

51:42Griffin Newman:To this point, Harrison Ford says what he liked about the script is it was more or less a literate script for adults. I saw a movie in it. It felt like a movie. It had something to say. It has a moral point of view. Like, he's smart. I mean, Harrison Ford is smart. I'm sure he felt the exact same way about Random Hearts. It's just funny. Like, he makes witnessy movies over and over again. And sometimes it works.

52:06David Sims:I mean, this successfully creates another silo of his movie star persona. which is you can have a Harrison Ford movie that is me in a pretty nice suit being a grown up an adult movie that's not usually

52:19Griffin Newman:too over the top Presumed Innocent and Frantic have a little more

52:22David Sims:of the lurid quality but he did successfully make this kind of like its own franchise of like you could tell when a Harrison Ford movie was being sold as this one's a little more for grown ups and it would still work and I'm going to be a little bit of a rascal but you know but like my moral compass will ultimately be where it needs to be even in Presumed Innocent though like that gets pretty wonky but like yeah but it's not him at the

52:50Griffin Newman:condom thief that movie's awesome that movie's so good so he you know and he hung out with some Philly homicide cops he did his work now to cast Rachel Lapp can I just jump in here

53:03David Sims:with one thing what don't say it with that level of disdain I like talking about the making of the movie Witness. Peter Weir was like, I love this script. This is A-list movie star. Is this guy going to be a diva? Is he going to swing around too much weight? Like, I need to meet with him and see if there's like an unspoken connection or not. Because otherwise, I don't know what I'm getting into. I've never worked with someone at this level before. And he goes to where Harrison Ford lives at the time at some ranch. And Harrison Ford picks him up himself at the local airport. And he's like, good sign of character.

53:36David Sims:you know didn't send a fucking chauffeur right and then they like sit down in harrison ford's kitchen and they go over the script and he was like all he wanted to talk about was what could make the story better there was no like i want my character to have a moment like this right what's the motivation here it was sort of unspoken we both think this character's rock solid what i'm concerned with is the big picture and he was just like yeah thank you so much he said i'm dob mob for life. Sure, yeah. But that he was like...

54:05Griffin Newman:They said, but David did crush that draft and good job by him. Yes, yeah. Six months ago at this point. What do some people think?

54:13David Sims:Just maybe if the vote had gone on a little longer, the Muppet heads would have risen up and would have come to their senses. Sure, okay, yeah. But no, but he, like, it's the thing you always hear about Harrison Ford, that he, like, approaches everything like craftsmen, and I think his ultimate value as a movie star is, like, few people have ever been better at carrying an audience through a movie. and it's not just that he has the innate appeal, it's that he really thinks about that stuff and he was like, there was no eager driven conversation it was all just like, what does this movie need to work?

54:45David Sims:You know, like his most kind of movie star note was originally, I think the final battle with the bad guys was a shootout and he was like, this sucks we need to have a more exciting way for one of these guys to die Yeah, yeah, yeah. We can't just be like bang, bang. It doesn't have to be silly, but like people have shown up, something needs to happen that feels like ingrained in - And it rocks. It's so good. Was he, was John Book originally a carpenter in the script? That feels like a Harrison Ford ad.

55:15Griffin Newman:I mean, the man can work wood. I don't know, but that feels like something.

55:19David Sims:No, he was not in the script and Weir was like, I think you need to see what they do so it doesn't all just become like the comedy of like, how weird it is they eat breakfast at this time. Right, right, right. But Harrison Ford is... Absolutely. Yeah, was a carpenter. He's a carpenter. Yeah, like he built Joan Didion's deck in Malibu or whatever. He can do me any time. It's a very smart show, don't tell, looking at the elements of what he had. It was not in the script. And he was just like, I think we should do this. They allot an entire day for it. And the movie uses like five continuous minutes of footage, which other people would be like, fucking hurry it up.

55:52David Sims:We don't need to see the whole barn.

55:54Griffin Newman:Rachel Lapp. Yeah. First they want Glenn Close. Makes sense. She's hot at the time. She's on the real thing on Broadway, which is this gigantic Tom Stopper playing, Mike Nichols directed. And Jeremy Irons is her co-star and her agent is like, look, I'll get her out of the show. And they're like, no, you won't. Like Mike Nichols would fucking nuke you. So that doesn't happen. But Peter Weir pivots to Isabella Rossellini. She's kind of wishy-washy about it. Maybe, maybe not. She goes over to the Bereshnikov movie White Nights instead. Peter Weir does eventually work with her in Fearless. I mean, Witness is way better than White Nights.

56:33But, like, White Nights is pretty... Good moves. Yeah. Yeah. That's some dance trash movie for you right there.

56:40Griffin Newman:Right. Right, right. Garbage dance movie. Then Peter Weir's like, what if we got, like, a German actress? Right, right? Like, we're casting a Pennsylvania Dutch woman. Yeah, sure. And like they think about that, but they can't find anyone. There's just one lady apparently he likes of the unnamed who like called on the phone and was like, hello, Mr. Veer. And they were like, this is not going to work. No. Kelly McGillis. Yeah. High school dropout. Had studied at the Pacific Conservatory of Performing Arts.

57:10David Sims:But then where'd she go after that, David?

57:12Griffin Newman:Juilliard. And then she was in Ruben Ruben, which is. The Tom Conte movie. Yeah, the Tom Conte movie. I've never seen it. What a title, though. It's about a guy eating two sandwiches, I assume? Yeah, exactly. One on each hand. Wait, why is it called Ruben Ruben? He's not playing a character called Ruben.

57:27David Sims:Interesting.

57:28Griffin Newman:Apparently, there's a dog called Ruben. Okay. But Tom Conte got an Oscar nomination for that movie.

57:34David Sims:That is her only previous film credit. This is her second film.

57:37Griffin Newman:Right, because that's 83.

57:38David Sims:Right, yeah.

57:39Griffin Newman:And I guess he correctly is like, I want someone on the more sort of new side, because this is a fairly kind of innocent character. Yes. I guess, right? And I mean, I think he's very smart.

57:53David Sims:Like you were saying that Ford spent a lot of time following Philly police, right? And then was like, I don't want to do any Amish research because my character shouldn't know any of this. Yeah, exactly. Makes some sense. Right. The Amish people were like fully immersed in doing a ton of research and living in Amish country because they had to know it. But I also think very smartly, they kept being like, who's the big name who'd be good for this role? and then settling on a recent Juilliard grad, an opera singer, a ballet dancer, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ega Mortensen. Like, it helps that when he goes to this place, obviously you watch it now, and, like, two of the four are super fucking recognizable.

58:30David Sims:Sure. In retrospect, but it must have helped that you're, like, he enters a world. Who are these people, right? Right, who are these people? Like, I buy them. And they're also introducing me into this world that I do not know about either. And he's casting vibes and looks in a lot of ways.

58:44Griffin Newman:apparently Ford was not into the screen test and was like eh and Peter said quote Harrison if you're going to work with me you've got to trust me and if you don't trust me you shouldn't make the movie and everyone goes quiet and like Harrison's like okay well I guess she's in the picture you know like so good shit exactly and so they you know they send her off to Lancaster country and she hangs out with some Amish people like they give her they give her a you know a little education.

59:15David Sims:Weir has her work with an accent coach. And he said, his greatest worry is that sometimes if people work on the accent too hard, the accent becomes the entire performance. You don't want him to write over to that. And he kept doing like check-ins with her every couple days. And then one time she calls and does the accent for him. And he's like, that was your last class. Roll it back to three days ago. Okay, got it. You went one step too far. There are a lot of Weir stories like that where it's like, add, add, add, add and then he's like actually subtract. Coco Chanel. He lets it build. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

59:49David Sims:Yeah, exactly.

59:50Griffin Newman:She, one of the most interesting things she learns when she's hanging out with the Amish family which I really like is that they don't say please and thank you and she's like that really opened up vast numbers of doors for me. They're not concerned about pleasantries just necessities of life. They're very real. They're down to earth. They're there to work. Life is work, right? You know, like that's the rewarding thing for them. So that, I mean She's so good in this movie. She's fucking phenomenal in this movie. She's unbelievable. And like she's such an, you know, she's a bit of a sad Hollywood story because like, you know, she gets discarded by Hollywood like I feel like by the early 90s essentially, right?

1:00:26Griffin Newman:Like she just has like a sort of five-ish year.

1:00:28David Sims:I've never seen Cat Chaser, which is the Abel Farrar movie with her and Peter Weller. And I was - Sounds like normal set. Yeah. To dig in harder on this.

1:00:37Griffin Newman:That was 90. That was 89. Because obviously after this, she does Top Gun. Yes. Yes. In 88, she does The Accused. Yes. I mean, that's the run. That's her stardom.

1:00:48David Sims:Those three movies in three years are just humongous. Right. She says that Cat Chaser basically made her want to walk away from Hollywood. Right. I've not been able to find her go in depth as to what happened, but you can make a lot of assumptions with two insane people she was working with. But then she, like, scales way down. Right.

1:01:06Griffin Newman:Her only big movie after that is The Babe, where she plays Mrs. Ruth in The Babe. Ruth movie. It's like a lot of TV movies. What is Mrs. Ruth up to?

1:01:18David Sims:Well, she's writing a check that will be on cash and one day will be sold as part of the Bambino, right?

1:01:25Griffin Newman:I mean, I assume Babe Ruth's mom, wife, I assume Babe Ruth's mom was like, Jesus! Look at this giant child of mine who hits dingers! What a fucking pun on this kid. No, I mean, famously, actually, Babe Ruth was like a child who was just a street maniac. They were like, we cannot, he had to be sent to like a home for boys because it was crazy. He kept hitting people with bats and they were like, what if we put a baseball right here? But I think like Babe Ruth's life as an athlete, despite being married to a couple different women, was basically like fucking ladies every night on the road, you know, being Babe Ruth, smoking 80 cigars, eating four porterhouse steaks.

1:01:59Griffin Newman:That's what you always hear about Babe Ruth. Wow. But I think, you know, he was, you know.

1:02:03David Sims:It definitely feels like the industry moved on from Kelly McGillis really quickly. It also feels like, you know, she had her sort of comeback about 10 years ago where She was in a couple of Ty West movies. She came out.

1:02:14Griffin Newman:Oh, yeah.

1:02:15David Sims:She's in the innkeepers. She started doing like interviews and sort of talking more about like her arc. And I feel like she does frame it as like to some degree. I was just like, I fucking hate these people. I hate this industry. I don't want to do it anymore. I don't want to do it anymore. I respect that. I'm sure they also were not offering her the project she was deserving of. But she also kind of frames it as like, I really soured on it pretty quickly.

1:02:40Griffin Newman:I mean, yeah. Yeah, it sucks. I mean, I don't know. The whole thing with her in Top Gun is it's like, it's not like she's bad in Top Gun, but she and Cruise don't have a lot of cameras. They have nothing. And it's just like, I mean. It's funny when you were talking about the Harrison Ford, Peter Weir meeting in the prep, and he's sitting down and he's like, okay, so what can I do to make this movie better? Which is in many ways the complete opposite of the Tom Cruise experience, which is like, what can I do? I am singularly focused on what can I do to make sure that I'm Ethan Hunt in every frame of this movie.

1:03:17And you guys understand I saved movies and all of the world. It's the Harrison Ford Craftsman thing, you know?

1:03:23David Sims:And like there's an interview on this beautiful Arrow set of him doing like some daytime talk show when this movie is about to come out. With like a fluffy like, you know, local daytime journalist. Yeah. And he's clearly not disrespectful to her and she's not stupid. But immediately she's like, you know, you have a bit of a reputation for not liking doing this, that you seem uncomfortable when you're doing press. But I've heard, and tell me if this is just a line, that you actually said, I want to do as much press as I can for this movie because I care about it a lot. And he does his very flashy, unflashy Harrison Ford, like, well, I'm proud of the picture and how it turned out.

1:04:04David Sims:and this is not the kind of picture that sells itself and you have to go do it because otherwise if you're making work but it's not communicating with people then what's the point? These, like, his notorious reputation for being a bit of a stonewall. And then you watch it and you're like he's just not doing soft shoot to sell his movies. Which he doesn't really do. He's speaking very intelligently and reservedly. It's like Leo on New Heights. Totally. Yeah, which is, like, guys remember that six to eight months ago Leonardo DiCaprio went on the New Heights podcast with Benicio Del Toro.

1:04:35Griffin Newman:It's just so funny that they always had him with Benicio, except when he was on Big Picture he was with PTA. But largely it was like him and Benicio. Yeah. And it kind of felt like Benicio was his little sort of helper in kindergarten. Oh, absolutely.

1:04:49David Sims:Do you remember they did that with him and Pitt on Once Upon a Time in Hollywood? Yeah. That they went on WTF together. That was great. And there was like five minutes when they were talking they actually let their guards down and they were talking about all the different ways that they get away from the paparazzi.

1:05:02Griffin Newman:Right, right, right. And that was awesome. Because largely they're more... Yeah, well, they're professionals. You know, they've done this and they know what they want to say and what they don't. New Heights, which is not a podcast I listen to. No offense to it. Me either. I only see little clips sometimes, but that one, the clips where it's just like Jason Kelsey going, just to start off and you're just like, I don't think this is his energy. And Leo's like, hello, thank you for having me on this podcast. I love cinema. Yes, thank you, Leo. We're glad you love cinema. I mean, God bless him. He's out there.

1:05:31Griffin Newman:He's doing, yeah. He wants to sell the movie. Exactly, just like Harrison. And you can't go on Fallon anymore. I mean, you can, but, like, nobody cares.

1:05:37David Sims:This woman in the interview is doing the fucking 1985 version of our current media landscape, Hell, where she just keeps pushing, like, one could guess that perhaps this movie is you trying to, like, put Indiana Jones and Han Solo in the backseat. And he's like, no, I'm proud of those movies. I'm proud of those performances. I will make a third Indiana Jones picture. And she's like, but do you hate the golden handcuffs of being known for these two big franchises? and he's like, I'm not going to be an asshole. I'm not going to complain about it. I'm proud of the films. I like the people I work with.

1:06:08David Sims:Right. You know, that she is sensing that he sees this as a pivot point and thus he might be trying to throw the old stuff in the garbage. I don't want to be seen that way anymore. And he's so even-handed about it, but he also kind of keeps saying, I've heard him say this in other places, like he was like 36 or 37 when Star Wars happened. He had gone through his whole arc of like fucking leaving a studio contract, becoming a carpenter, building back up the small parts with American Graffiti and was just like, I'm here to do work. Like I have no discomfort with this. I had walked away from it once before.

1:06:46David Sims:I'm not going to complain about being too successful and being pigeonholed into being an A-lister, but I want to use my power for good. There's a men's health cover featuring Kyle Chandler, I think from like 10, 15 years ago. And the cover line is like a good hang with the last real American dude.

1:07:05Griffin Newman:I can tell you exactly what it says. It says a serious hang with the last solid dude. The last solid dude. Okay. He's looking good. You know, and it's the best cover line writing that ever. Because I think about it anytime I'm confronted with like the last solid dude, you know. But like Harrison Ford was giving the last solid dude. But they also had, I will say, a guide to the best summer gear. Best new tennis racket, weekend bags, sunglasses for every sport. and of course, cruising motorcycles. Sure. Now I need two to three cruising motorcycles every summer. Does Harrison Ford ride motorcycles?

1:07:38Griffin Newman:He probably does. In addition to the planes. He never seen a... He never seen a...

1:07:42David Sims:Sure, that's right. I imagine he's done it in his off time as well. But it... He just feels like a vehicle guy, right? Like he likes vehicles. Yeah, okay.

1:07:50Griffin Newman:He enjoys cycling and tennis. I like my little red wagon. Oh yeah, the cycling. I remember when he was... He's a big bike guy. Yeah, when he was in the UK filming the new Indiana Jones, which we don't have to talk about, But he was like, you know, in his spandex, like cycling around on the weekends a lot, just showing up at pubs.

1:08:05David Sims:I know he's done 15 television series in that same amount of time. Yeah. But it was a little alarming to look at his IMDb last night and go like, oh, post pandemic, he has only made two films. Which are Indiana Jones and the Doll of Destiny and Captain America Brave New World. Oh, right. Red Hulk. Totally forgot about that. I'm like five years. Red Hulk's right there in the office. We love Red Hulk.

1:08:27Griffin Newman:We like our president.

1:08:28David Sims:Nothing but respect. Oh, right. Of course. We also have another one over here. Okay. It's a popcorn bucket.

1:08:34Griffin Newman:We just think it's pretty funny that Harrison Ford played Thaddeus Ross, like eight films into that role and turned into Red Hulk. Right. And I guess now Marvel will just kind of be like, just forget it. Just forget that it fucking happened.

1:08:48David Sims:Yeah. It just feels like a shame. Yeah. It's a shame. I mean, he does shrinking. Right. And everyone loves shrinking. And he likes, do they? Nobody loves shrinking. Never seen it. My mom loves shrinking. There you go. It's good. But also talks about it as if it's final season Game of Thrones where she's like, you and your friends aren't watching Shrinking? Everyone I talk to is watching Shrinking. I can't say I've shrunk of late.

1:09:08Griffin Newman:Yeah. And then he did, right, 1923. Yes. With Helen Mirren. Right. But that was like a one season thing, right? It was two. They did two seasons. But is his character still alive? Which Dutton is he? He is Jacob Dutton, of course. And he is, I mean, he's alive in 1923. Hey. Oh, okay. Maybe he's on ice and in Yellowstone they'll like find him in like an ice chest. I hope so. And throw him out. And he rilks out. Yellowstone is current day? Yellowstone is present day. Oh, okay. That's right. And so we had to go into the past. And so they've done like 18 something and they've done 1923. Have they done anything like 50s, 60s?

1:09:44I don't think so yet.

1:09:45Griffin Newman:They should do like 3000 BC and it's just like grass. I was going to say future. Oh, sure. Yellowstone 2099. Wow. Where they're getting like cyber oil.

1:09:56David Sims:Yeah. Or cyber cattle. The cyber duttons. Everything should just be cyber. I mean, this is a thing I feel like Chris Ryan is constantly sort of litigating. But like, I am sometimes confused as to which Sheridan verse shows are Yellowstone universe and which ones aren't. Like, Lawman Bass Reeves is not connected to Yellowstone.

1:10:18Griffin Newman:No, because that's about a real person. Right. And I think Tulsa King is also not. Tulsa King is just set in our disgusting woke world, which Sylvester Stallone must dismantle brick by brick. But they have done, of course, 1883 and 1923, and then they have upcoming The Madison with Michelle Pfeiffer and Patrick J. Adams and Matthew Fox. We need to throw him out. Oh, wow.

1:10:44David Sims:And then something called Why Marshalls. Yeah, do you know what why is, if I'm not mistaken?

1:10:50Griffin Newman:Well, I'm guessing that why refers to Yellowstone, but go ahead.

1:10:53David Sims:Well, that... I mean, I assume. The greatest boondoggle of the modern streaming era is that Paramount sells the Yellowstone rights to Peacock.

1:11:01Griffin Newman:They have the rights to all but Yellowstone.

1:11:02David Sims:Because they're like, well, we're never going to start a streaming service. And then CBS and Paramount re-merge. And now Paramount inherits CBS All Access, rebrands as Paramount Plus, and is like, you're telling me they have Yellowstone forever? So when the whole Sheridan, Costner, Bruja blows over, they're rubbing their hands together and they're like, well, if the show ends, we stop having to give Peacock anything. So they're making a new show that's most of the supporting cast of present day Yellowstone. You're Luke Grimes. You're Gil Birmingham. Sure. Continuing the same plot lines, but they're like, it's a new show.

1:11:40Oh, great.

1:11:41David Sims:And we own this now. Got it. And I guess they're calling it Y instead of Yellowstone to even more distance itself.

1:11:47Griffin Newman:They're also working on 1944 and then something called 6666, a shutter to think what that is. Yellowstone in hell? Probably. Look, Witness. Let's talk about Witness. I just want to tell you, of course, that they filmed in Lancaster County, but of course they did not film the Amish, who refused to be filmed.

1:12:02David Sims:And we're like, you can take anything you want. You can use our homes. Do not fucking capture our souls. I mean, a little bit.

1:12:09Griffin Newman:The Amish were very unhappy with this. Have either of you been to Amish country? Absolutely. In what context? Did you take a bus? Were you the tourists? No, no. It's just a nice place to go on vacation. It's sort of like going to upstate New York, but going this way. And it's a slightly different vibe.

1:12:25David Sims:I was going to say for me, it was like eighth grade overnight trip to Philly.

1:12:29Griffin Newman:It is a classic thing to do with the school.

1:12:31David Sims:and we went to fucking Amish country. And the thing I remember, I maybe have invoked in previous episodes. Eat a big dinner. We go to Amish country and you see that you get the tour and then they show you the butter and whatever the fuck. Right. But then they were like, and then we're going to show you a 4D movie about Amish life. And we went into a custom built theater to watch this 40 minute original film about a kid going on rum spring and thinking of leaving the Amish community and coming back. But it was built in this environmental theater where there were like effects and like doors shuddering and like wind and stuff.

1:13:04David Sims:And I was like, this is the most anti-Amish thing. You're trying to sell me on the beauty of the simple life. And you're like putting like William Kassler tanglers under the seat and having like, it was like a theater built as if it was like a barn and shit would go off around it. Ben's shaking his head.

1:13:23Griffin Newman:I was just always kind of jealous by the tradition of Run Springer. Like, I wasn't restricted, really, as a teen, right, at all. I kind of got away with a lot of troublemaking and shenanigans.

1:13:37David Sims:But it was the idea of having the Purge-esque get a jail pass. There's something of, like, just go off. I love that idea. We actually want you to fuck up. Right. Right. Yeah.

1:13:47Griffin Newman:Yeah. But it is, I will say, I think Rumspring is a somewhat, our view of it is not, like, entirely accurate, I think. It's not just, like, taking ecstasy constantly. and going to clubs. It's a Pennsylvania Dutch word for running around. But I don't think that the actual vibe of it, by and large, is like, yeah, you should go to Vegas. It's not like The Purge. No. Become a graffiti artist. It's a little bit more seen, I think, within most communities. It's like a time to engage in courtship and like, you know. Shoplift. Just be a little looser with like, okay you know it's like it's so when you say engage in courtship though you do mean like fuck around yeah no but i don't find out i don't think it's like right why don't you just like hit the clubs and just like run through ladies i mean part of it i'm sure is that it was mainly

1:14:41David Sims:uh meant to be shown to uh school groups like the one i was in but this 4d movie its depiction of rumspringa was a an amish kid driving a car and eating a slice of pizza right yeah yeah and

1:14:52Griffin Newman:they're like he's going crazy right i think there's a little bit of like okay like things can be a little less strict while you're in this kind of like unsettled 16, 17, 18 year old time of your life where you maybe want to explore. Right. You know, just being English.

1:15:06David Sims:One hand on the wheel, one hand on the slice.

1:15:08Griffin Newman:Exactly.

1:15:09David Sims:There was a line I remember where he literally was like, look, I love my grandfather, but pizza's going to be pretty hard to give up. Yeah. Now look, it's so true.

1:15:19Griffin Newman:Maybe they can make pizza. It's just not plain. The whole thing with the Amish is like, It'd be very, it'd be the plainest pizza you've ever had. I can feel myself being disrespectful to a community I don't understand the second I start talking about this. All I have are stereotypes. So an amazing thing about this movie is that I know the Amish themselves hated it. And so it was the Mennonites who were filmed as extras, right? But I think it is very respectful. That's why this movie is so beautiful. And it sells what is lovely about this community. and you watch it thinking he might stay. Or at least just like, the whole thing that's interesting to me about Witness, which we should talk about, which is a film about John Book.

1:16:06Griffin Newman:John Book. Harrison Ford is John Book. But of course, initially it is about Rachel Lapp, a woman in an Amish community whose husband has died, played by Kelly McGillis, who with her son Samuel, played by Lucas Haas and his big moon eyes, just the biggest eyes in the world. Also his drug ears. And cute ears. But I just feel like the eyes are so vital because you're like, he witnessed. Well, yes. Yes. And any time you see those eyes of his, you're just like, it's still in his eyes. You know, when he sees Danny Glover in the press clipping in the box, they have that shot that is like of his eyes, like the get out eyes shot, you know?

1:16:44And he's like, oh, it's that one.

1:16:45Griffin Newman:Harrison Ford like calmly putting his finger down is like a shot I never forget.

1:16:49David Sims:Even the inciting incident of this movie Just being, seeing his eyes through the crack Of the closed stall door You need those eyes to punch through the crack Yeah

1:16:58Griffin Newman:But his, you know, they're going to Baltimore To spend time with her sister Is her sister also Amish, one assumes Or has she maybe left the community in some way? Presumably her sister's It's not really mentioned It's not made clear What's going on in Baltimore is not totally clear But I guess the vibe is kind of like You need to mourn, you need a little bit of time To get support, I don't know It's very clear it's going to be his first time Leaving It's his first time on a train It's his first time visiting the city I mean it's the exact again not to dwell on dead poets But we did that recently Opening of dead poets where it's like Everyone filing into the school And it's just quiet Like the way this movie just starts with the funeral Where it's just like I'm bringing the heat up slowly Just get to know this landscape These people It doesn't need to be lurid It doesn't need to be weird or goofy it's just kind of lovely him getting on the train is so lovely and like looking out the window and being so excited also fully 15 minutes before Harrison Ford shows up and then of course he witnesses a throat slashing yeah he's pretty creative in the little stalls just a stall action good instincts switching stalls exactly

1:18:06David Sims:Indiana Jones head on a swivel yeah exactly and the hat at the last moment he's really smart

1:18:12Griffin Newman:Danny Glover a very new to film Danny Glover of course does a bad thing

1:18:17David Sims:he had only done Places in the Heart

1:18:17Griffin Newman:It sounds like I know that like because the whole thing with him, too, is he starts a little late. Like, Dan Glover. Do you find. He's almost immediately too old for this shit.

1:18:25David Sims:Right. The other thing is, I think because Danny Glover like hits the ground running, it like arrives as like a fully formed adult movie star in a way.

1:18:33Griffin Newman:Because Color Purple is like, you know, same year as in the fall or whatever.

1:18:37David Sims:Right. And then Lethal Weapon's the year after. Like, it's such a quick kind of ascension that something in my brain short circuits when I see him in a movie like this. and he's not hyper famous yet. Right? Like he shows up. There's just no era of like watching other A-list movie stars where you're like, oh, there are a couple like small parts they have where they're a little green before they figure out their stuff and they figure out their look. And you're like, even in this, it doesn't unbalance the movie. No, not at all. But I keep being like, right, Danny Clever's only in like three scenes.

1:19:10Right. And you're, I mean, it's hard when you're going back in time and when you've, because this is not the first time you have you Griffin yes have seen Danny Glover so even though right it's he's new it in the movie

1:19:22David Sims:to the scene not new to you that that is my point is that unlike other people where you can go back and watch the earlier films and be like oh of course this is early in their career before they were a big star Danny Glover just somehow always feels like yeah he must have been above the title from the beginning right

1:19:48Griffin Newman:Guys, it's time to believe in the Hail Mary. Project Hail Mary, that is. One of the most beloved adventure stories by Andy Weir. Big book. It's now a major motion picture. This has never been a better time to immerse yourself in the best-selling audiobook, right? The movie's coming out. Listen to the book. Yep. All right, so I'll tell you what it's about. There's a sole survivor of a desperate last chance mission in space. Rylan Grace is the character. He's got to save the Earth from disaster in an incredible science-based thriller. The fan favorite narrator, Ray Porter, brings every moment to life with humor, heart, and pulse-pounding tension.

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1:22:12David Sims:What's that? Just throwing in some quotes that feel relevant as reactions. Got it. Now, initially, of course, I was going to let Griffin have his pick because it just ended up being that you had too many trees in your yard. It's a problem. I mean, I'm all thumbs. Green thumbs. I got 10 green thumbs. It's hard for me to do any other task because I'm so busy planting trees and watching them grow so fast.

1:22:34Griffin Newman:So graciously, he allowed me to select some trees. And so I actually picked some stuff out for my dad. Oh, very nice. Humble brag. So he got himself a couple of sky pencil holly trees. Oh, cool. I'm going to look these up. Oh, very nice. Oh, yeah. They're sort of like tall, thin boys. Yeah. Yep. And then he also got a lilac shrub.

1:22:59David Sims:A lilac shrub?

1:23:00Griffin Newman:Is that his favorite color?

1:23:01David Sims:In this economy?

1:23:02Griffin Newman:Yeah. Yeah. Lilac is through the roof. And I love the smell of a lilac flower. So the whole process was so easy. The thing I really love as far as like the features that are available on this site is you enter in your zip code and it gives you a growing zone. So you're able to pick out the right kinds of plants that are going to thrive in your climate. He's planted this stuff. Yeah. It all came healthy, like they said. Yeah. And they look great.

1:23:31David Sims:And I bet it planted a big old smile on his face to watch these trees.

1:23:35Griffin Newman:Absolutely.

1:23:35David Sims:And now here's the best part.

1:23:36Griffin Newman:I went and I helped him out and I got to dig a hole.

1:23:39David Sims:That is the best part. One, two, three. Life's a hole. Dig it. Show dirt.

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1:24:16David Sims:And I have one last thing to say.

1:24:18Griffin Newman:Please.

1:24:18David Sims:Life is like a box of chocolates for scum. Very good. Thank you.

1:24:32Griffin Newman:Here comes, you know, he witnesses this crime. Here comes John Book trying to figure out what happened. And Patti LuPone is, you know, his trusty sister. Yeah. He's got the great, the great, I love him. What's his name? Brent Jennings. From Moneyball. That's who I, like, he's a guy who's in a billion things. Incredibly hard. But I can, he's washed. Just a perfect line delivery. Tell him why it's incredibly hard. Perfect line delivery. I think, like, and I'm saying, like, seriously, look at this guy's recipe. Lovely career. An unbelievable amount of movies.

1:25:07David Sims:He's still with us.

1:25:08Griffin Newman:He's 74 years old.

1:25:09David Sims:But one could only hope to hit one line out of the park that hard.

1:25:13Griffin Newman:But he's great in this. He's the trusty, you know, partner of John.

1:25:17David Sims:And I also feel like he's not a movie cop. He feels like a real cop.

1:25:21Griffin Newman:I mean, the sweet thing right early on when he, Samuel doesn't really have the words for saying that the person he saw was black. Yeah. So he was like you, but not. What's the word for run? We don't need to do it. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, no, it's. And just that moment where John Book, like the hint of the Harrison smile. Yeah, it's great. It's so good. Just spreads across his face. Like, I like this kid, you know, it's just so good.

1:25:48David Sims:But that's also a thing. we talk so much about how being good with kids is a thing that tends to like elevate a movie star to like legend status. Yeah. Because you kind of can't fake it. Stumpig. Yeah. Stumpig. And then you think like, oh, he hasn't really interacted with children on screen up until this point. Yeah, I guess so. As much as he has been a movie star beloved by little boys. Right. And Peter Weirva talks about when he was... Well, we did just have short round. Oh, you're right. I'm sorry. But that's right before this. Well. Yeah. Yeah. No, you're right. You're right. But that his introduction is this kid is sitting here and Harrison Ford lowers himself into the frame.

1:26:27David Sims:Yeah. Right. That he gets down to the kid's eye level. That's it's some Princess Diana shit. You know, it does immediately. Yeah. And he is the prince of my mood to his performance. It's just also like it's a very primal heteronormative thing about I'm about to say, but it makes him so hot. You know, it's just like this single like this single hot guy who's just like, oh, and now I know instinctively. had to like bond with this kid. I'm just like,

1:26:52Griffin Newman:hello. Here's the take, right? That I forgot. This is what I was going to say. The whole thing that's, the quiet thing in this movie is that he's a really angry guy. Yeah. And you see these moments, obviously the biggest being late in the movie when he punches the mean tourist guy, who by the way, fuck that guy. Fuck that guy. Ice cream and being mean. And then they're like, whoa, this is bad for the industry if Amish start fighting back.

1:27:14David Sims:Yeah. Although there's probably someone on TikTok like espousing the values of the ice cream facial and doing this to themselves on purpose.

1:27:21Griffin Newman:But there are these little moments where you're like, right, this guy's one thing is that, and this is why he's a cop. He's got this kind of weird righteous streak, but there's like a rage to him. Yeah. And that's why it's so good for him to be on the farm. Yeah. And you can feel him kind of finding an equilibrium that he maybe doesn't have. He doesn't exactly cover himself with glory in the first 15 minutes. The whole, like, let's stop by a local Philly bar and just, like, pull out some black guys that we know, and try to arrest them. Not good.

1:27:49David Sims:Not by the book, no one could say.

1:27:52Griffin Newman:The guy's name is John Book, so that's really weird.

1:27:54David Sims:It's actually kind of ironic. Isn't there a line in the movie where they invoke that he's trying to be a better father to his sister's kids?

1:28:01Griffin Newman:Yes, they talk about all of this exactly. He's a little afraid to have his own kids. There's that whole scene where McGillis lays him out a little bit.

1:28:11David Sims:But we see, it's a very circumstantial moment, but just him showing up and immediately fucking criticizing LaPone. Oh, yeah. For doing it wrong. Right.

1:28:20Griffin Newman:LaPone rocking a full mullet? What's going on? It is a full mullet. And what he's criticizing her for, not doing it wrong, is having an overnight visitor while her two children are in the home, which, you know, I think single moms should get to do whatever they want. I'm not saying she's doing it wrong. He's acting like she's doing it wrong. He's policing. He's not doing a great job.

1:28:43David Sims:He's policing her in a way that's really fucking judgy. There is a deleted scene that was part of the TV broadcast. Sure. That is five minutes of Kelly McGillis and Patti LuPone.

1:28:54Griffin Newman:Sounds great.

1:28:55David Sims:Oh, yeah. Bring that to Broadway right now. Before Book comes and pulls them, right? Where she comes downstairs, Kelly McGillis, and Lucas Haas, she has three children, I think, or maybe it's only two. Lucas Haas is playing Donkey Kong with them, and they're like bowls of sugary cereal and like fucking radios blaring. Yeah. And Kelly McGill looks shocked. And then it cuts to Patti LuPone coming downstairs and all three children are like scrubbing the kitchen like the Cinderella mice. Okay. And then Patti LuPone takes it as a judgment on her mothering. And they have this emotional connection. And it's like not a bad scene at all, but you can see why we were cut it because it's like saying the thing out loud over and over again.

1:29:40David Sims:Sure, yeah. It has Patti LuPone like breaking down in tears. And it's not as vital to the larger. And it's also like a little more like, you know, culture worry. Yes. As opposed to, I find the way that the film judges John Book and like the modern values, you know, they fixate on the gun. And she's like, I don't want your gun in my house. This gun of the hand. Yes. You know, which is like an incredible turn of phrase. And like that seems like a valid concern and less judgy than being like, well, let me let me think about how you're parenting. and like what your sugar content is. And the scene ends with like Calumigula's having to apologize.

1:30:18David Sims:Right. It's all like a little overstated. Yeah.

1:30:22Griffin Newman:And also you need to get to Amish country. You do. And this movie does a pretty good job convincing you. It's more than a pretty good. It's a great screenplay. Yeah. Like giving you the chain of events that are like, you know what? He simply must hide out in Amish country with these people. Because it's a little insane. Because they're bad cops. Yeah. Yes. Because it's bad cops because he's himself you know, gets shot. Like, all this stuff.

1:30:45David Sims:Lucas Haas is able to ID Danny Glover. Ford goes to his chief. He goes to, yeah, his boss. And then the confiscated drugs are missing. Right. He's put the pieces together. He thinks he solved the whole case.

1:31:02Griffin Newman:Joseph Sommer, who's basically, to me, just like German Ronnie Cox. You know what I mean? Yes, especially in the 80s. He spent two minutes being like, is this Ronnie Cox? No, it's not. But it could be. Yes. And like that scene is so great because I'm immediately like, don't. Don't do it. As soon as he's like, let's just keep it. Who else knows about this? Let's keep it between the two of us. And like, we've all been trained at this point. So then Danny Glover shows up in the. In the parking. In the parking lot. Shoot. There's a shootout. But the best part is the rich couple. That's my car. Yeah.

1:31:32Griffin Newman:That's my car. The elevator. The husband being like, you idiot. I don't give a shit. It's really funny. What would you do if your car was getting shot up at Danny Glover? in an inadvertent situation? Would you also, would you just quietly like door close it? I don't know. I might have an initial like panic moment. I think you'd feel like it's real. Well, I mean, we've been taught in emergency situations to not get in the elevator, you know, that like you don't want to be stuck in an elevator in a fire. Right. So, and then you're trapped. Right. So, and then also, you know, does that close door, close elevator button work?

1:32:10Is, you know, Like, I've been told it's an urban life. Sure. It's a time.

1:32:14David Sims:Yeah. It's a placebo. Are the elevator doors bulletproof? I mean, there are many questions here. That is a great question that I wanted. But you're not going to walk out. No, you're not. You're not going to be like, you know what? Big old parking garage. No, but also maybe there's a universe in which I simultaneously hold down the closed door button and the basement button. So I'm like doors closed, staying here in stasis. Oh, I don't know about that. But then you're worried about the, I think instinctively I would just run back in and like press every button that I could.

1:32:48Griffin Newman:Yeah. I don't think calling a timeout is going to work. Like, okay, hold up. Let me just back the car out.

1:32:53David Sims:Let me just get it out of here. Yeah. But yes. He immediately puts together. I only told one guy. Clearly he's in on it. My top priority. Now there's basically no one I can trust. I got to get these witnesses out of here. Right. so his right it is what is smart in the construction of this movie is that he's not immediately saying I got to go hide out in Amish country no that's the correct element is that he's

1:33:16Griffin Newman:like you guys stay here I'm gonna go that little mailboxy thing what is it birdhouse what is that yeah let's try to not hit that and yeah but he's right he's been shot he's so caught up in his

1:33:30David Sims:stoic thing that he's like, I gotta save them. Right. Goes, drives them back, bleeding out. Happily, the serious infection that he gets from the bullet that is still in his body does not take over until he has dropped them off. It's perfect timing. In Amish country, you know? But it's like once he's setting out on his own. Just in time to hit. Then the fever takes hold. The mailbox and nothing worse. Yeah. No, so it's a birdhouse, but like why do they need a birdhouse? For the birds. Sure, but like. I guess just for birds. So the birds don't have to be plain also? The whole thing. That's a good point.

1:34:04David Sims:And inside that birdhouse, it is teched out. The whole thing with the Amish. Flat screen TV.

1:34:08Griffin Newman:I understand that we probably have zero to one Amish listeners because the Amish probably aren't listening to too many podcasts, right?

1:34:15David Sims:Unless they're on Rumspringer, yeah.

1:34:17Griffin Newman:You can listen to all the podcasts you wish.

1:34:22David Sims:Father, I went through 10 years of blank check in merely two weeks.

1:34:26Griffin Newman:But one stereotype I obviously have about the Amish is that they're wonderful woodworkers. And like, you know, there's this place near my home in Brooklyn where if your chair breaks and you give it to this guy, he sends it off to the Amish for them to fix it. So I think that it's like that's recreational, right? Like making a beautiful little birdhouse. It's like it's useful. It's a practical enough item.

1:34:51David Sims:You don't need to raise a barn every week, but you need projects every day.

1:34:55Griffin Newman:You can have fun crafting this. I guess. Are the birds doing work for you? Does it all have to be work? Well, that's kind of what it seems like.

1:35:04David Sims:I like to imagine little Amish birds in there building their own little tiny bug house. They have. How are the birds? I am. I am anti-bird. Laying plain eggs. Anti-bird in general. I don't like birds. I think birds are upsetting. I don't.

1:35:17Griffin Newman:I mean, I respect the bird, the majestic bird. He who flies. I respect them. I don't really want them in my house. I respect them. Safe distance. Because they are freaky and they're organized and they can rise up against it. All right, Dippy Hadron. I mean, Hitchcock had it right. Also, they're dinosaurs.

1:35:38David Sims:That's not cool? That's a little scary.

1:35:41Griffin Newman:Sure. And they're talking to each other. They have patterns. They gossip. But they keep to themselves. They gossip. They're doing their own thing. And you just get to perceive them. Not these fucking parrots. These parrots come up in your room. grill and they make fun of you. You know, like everyone who's birding and is like, I once saw this like rarest form of bird that like I've never heard. Like, what's that about? You know, like where are all the other kinds?

1:36:08David Sims:I'll say this. I actually, I'm almost envious. I wish I could structure my entire life around birding. When I hear birders talk about like, I wake up at 3 a.m. and I just stand in a field and I patiently wait to hear a call. I'm like, I wish that is all it took to make me feel happy.

1:36:26Griffin Newman:I'm pretty far from being able to do something like that. Yeah. It's like, wow. I think I'd have to work on a lot of stuff to get to that. Wake up. Go outside. Not use phone. Yeah. Because burning to me, right. It's like fishing. It's like one of those things where if you get into it, it's like you're going to be waking up when it dark.

1:36:45David Sims:But isn't this kind of the Amish appeal, right? They don't need a house. Yeah. You know? The birds. Are we back on the birds?

1:36:52Griffin Newman:The house is their nature. I like how absolutely hung up we are. You're saying we should be. Why would the Amish make a house for birds? We should not.

1:36:59David Sims:But I know it feels like, correct me if I'm wrong here. We're zooming out to a larger why do birdhouses exist? Why do we, the people, are even making half measures? I would like to interrogate the internal logic of plainness as it relates to birdhouses. And also, now we've gotten here, Rachel gives John Book a jacket. And then she's like, that has like eyes and hooks. Hooks and eyes. They don't have buttons. Then every single man is wearing their shirt with a button.

1:37:30Griffin Newman:It's interesting. So like what's going on? But just one button? No, they're all buttoned down. But I assumed it was the top layer. I assumed it was the jacket, the suit jacket part. Yeah, but so why? So the suit jackets can't have buttons, but the shirts can have buttons? I don't know. We're going to need listeners way in or maybe I rewatch. And let me be super clear here. This is not an indictment of the Amish.

1:37:54David Sims:Right. You're interrogating the movie. I'm interrogating how the movie is communicating their beliefs to me and their way of life. See, I wonder, does his shirt have buttons? It does. Because once I noticed this, they all have buttons. And what's the guy with the He-Man hair? That's Goodenough, right? Alexander Goodenough. Yeah. Who's more than Goodenough in this movie.

1:38:16Griffin Newman:He's great. He's fantastic. He's great. I feel like after this, best known for Die Hard is the sort of... Yes, sure. He is Carl in Die Hard. Oh, shit. Yeah. He has buttons. Yes. He died quite young. Yeah. And then they don't really talk about this, but the use of color in the clothes. Right. But some people do get to have a green shirt or a blue shirt. I think there's a spectrum. Yeah. And also you can use natural dyes. True. True, true, true. Natural tie dyes. But it's supposed to be plain. I'm going to come again with a tie dye shirt.

1:38:50David Sims:Yeah, I mean, my question was, are they saying, like, you haven't earned buttons yet? You're back to, like, peak plainness. You got to work your way back up in the same way they're making him, like, prove himself in the community, but they give him a button shirt from the beginning. Yeah, they do. Okay. I have no answers here. Yeah, I don't know. You're asking good questions.

1:39:12Griffin Newman:I just know that, you know, similar to the Hasidim, another, like, sort of group that gets a lot of blanket things, but there's like, you know, varying sex with varying levels. They cross over in the train station. I know that. That's kind of a nice moment. It's a really interesting moment. It is. And I think it's well done because the guy doesn't look at him in a hostile way. And Samuel isn't completely upset about it, but it is kind of a like, right, same but different. What is this? Yeah. And like, yeah, I mean, there's so many things I could say about the Hasidim. I'm so close to the Hasidim, right?

1:39:48Griffin Newman:Because they live in neighborhoods so close to me. And I'm seeing them all the time. And I have all these complicated feelings about them. And then you watch a movie about the Amish. And I know the Amish community is just like their sexual abuse. Right. You can read about this. It's so hard to deal with in these mega-religious communities. But then you watch this movie and you're like, to be milking cows and working wood. That's what I need. It's a suburban thing.

1:40:12David Sims:Would it be nice to be able to do this? I think also it's what this movie gets really right and why I think one of the reasons they cut out that LePone Donkey Kong scene is like the humor is always that he's a little bit out of sorts trying to coexist. Fish out of water. Yes. It's never sort of the joke of like, what is this? You know, the joke's never at them. No, it's not. Which I think is big. And also there's so many moments.

1:40:40Griffin Newman:More usually on him, but in a very, very gentle way. In a very gentle way.

1:40:44David Sims:Even the moment of him coming out in the full outfit for the first time, I'm like, this is so perfectly judged because two degrees further, Harrison Ford looks silly in a way that makes the movie broad. Right. And it's not even about the outfit. It's about the way he's wearing it and how much he's playing the discomfort of it. Right. It's like everything is just perfectly judged in this weird way. And also then she laughs. Yes. You know, so like, but she laughs in the... She titters.

1:41:13Griffin Newman:Exactly. Like she tempers it as well, which kind of like signals to the audience, okay, like this, yeah, like this is a little funny, but we're not doing, you know, Amish drag. Broad first. Yeah. It's also, this is so trite because we live in a silly country that sucks in so many ways. It's the first time hearing this. Yeah. But you also are like, yeah, man, that's kind of what America is, right? some guys who were like hey we do a really specific thing and their countries were like yeah fuck out of here and they're like we're gonna do it over here and America's like alright fucking yeah drive your buggy alright you know like and you're like it's beautiful it's weird and especially like 200

1:41:52David Sims:years later you're like everything else has changed and everyone's like mashed into the same pot where you're like but we have different bars and then you have these little sects of just like we have refused to acknowledge the passage of time. Right and there's jerks but I

1:42:04Griffin Newman:I feel like if you're in Lancaster County, there's a lot of people like, yeah, yeah, that's what they're over there doing.

1:42:08David Sims:This is what I'm also saying, though, of I think this movie makes the case where you're like, I could see him staying. There is just enough tension. It's obviously very tied to a hook.

1:42:18Griffin Newman:We know so little of his life. So you can kind of read that in.

1:42:21David Sims:But also, as you said, that his life doesn't seem to be going super well. And this guy's overcranked. And you're like, he does seem to be finding some kind of inner peace. I think the movie just has the tone and restraint so locked that you get to a point where you're like, you think to yourself while watching it in that scene, you're like, well, like, maybe he could stay. This is comfortable. And then two seconds later, you're like, no, because obviously, like, he's not used to this lifestyle. You know, two weeks later, like, there's like a lot of tensions. And like, you think through it, but you like, you're carried away for a moment.

1:42:58and then you're like, no, we got to acknowledge the reality of this situation, which is hard to modulate.

1:43:07David Sims:Yes, I also think the sitcom plot version of this is like, oh my God. They're richer or poorer, let's be honest. Being an Amish person fucking rules. I'm going to stay here forever. Getting really bullish and then they're smacked down to earth and they learn their lesson. Versus all of it happening internally with this guy being so filtered through the tension and chemistry with this one woman.

1:43:26Griffin Newman:And it's a moment where they're both sort of like, this has no future that isn't chaotic or sad or disruptive. Right, right. I'm going to have to stay or you're going to have to leave. Right. And like, look, they are an Anabaptist community. If Harrison, if John Book, Harrison Ford is John Book. Harrison Ford is John Book. Wants to stay. He's going to have to get baptized and accept Jesus Christ. They're not just like, oh, you like milk and cows? Hang out. They're like, we are all in on Jay-Z. Do you agree? The movie really does elide that. Yes. I mean, they talk about the scene where the grandpa talks to him about the gun and talks about God in that way.

1:44:10Griffin Newman:It's so good. It's so good, but it does not say Jesus Christ. You see them praying before meals, but it's silent. like there there is it walks like a very fine cultural religious line of also to the point of

1:44:27David Sims:everything we're saying i get baptized is that stuff not in the movie not because they're like avoiding it but because that doesn't really benefit the story they're telling here he's never about a man in spiritual crisis he's never going to be tempted by doesn't seem that way the idea of what if you double down on jc right he's going to be tempted on the day-to-day life aspect of it, not the theology. 100%. Totally. And also, and I think and the basic mindset that underpins the day-to-day life as opposed to the spiritual stuff.

1:45:01Griffin Newman:It is also kind of like, okay, you're gonna shack up with Rachel, right? Welcome to the community. By the way, you met Joseph Summer. I mean, not Joseph Summer. You met Grandpa. You met Godinav. He's your age. It's kind of it. It's like fucking 60 people. This isn't like a you know. You're like, Vigo's fifth build. He has Three lines It's pretty small So what do you guys do all day? We fucking milk cows and shit Once in a while we raise a barn Anything else? No, that's it You go see movies? Not allowed This is one of Viggo's That sucks That part sucks I'm out Except what if you met an Amish kid Who had done Rumspringa Yeah And he's just really locked in On like one year of movies Yeah Like that's all he knows But anyway Tron, I don't even know how to explain this Made perfect sense to me

1:45:47David Sims:Also, these kids are coming to visit your country and they're telling you about the 4D movie they just saw about you that you can't see. That's fucking hell. No, I just a lot of the reviews at the time, I think trying to crack who Weir was as a filmmaker as he was so successfully making a transition. And especially because this is like him working as a for hire director for the first time, but knocks it out of the park. Yeah, it's a fucking Best Director nomination. It's a big hit. What is the through line? What is this guy's magic? They all kind of identified that Weir's big thing is the clash of two communities butting up against each other.

1:46:30David Sims:even if it isn't dramatic even if it isn't an intense uh clash the friction right yeah and that i think is so informed by and obviously in his early australian films it's very often textual the like origins of australia as a country sure right this weird like combativeness of like who are we and who are these other people and who belongs here more and i think he's just so well he's very well judged in knowing how to balance these things and not using one side or the other as like a story alley-oop, you know? He's also interested like in a group of people who live by their own code, their own world, who are kind of removed from the world in some way or another, whether it's like, you know, like at a girl's school, just like in girl land.

1:47:24Yes. Or, you know, stuck in on a boat, stuck in like reality world. But like these people who are kind of closed off in some way or another from life as we know it. And then he has a character that that punctures that world. Right. In most of the movies who like acts as the audience like surrogate.

1:47:47David Sims:No, that's a great point. Yeah. And whether the sex are like sort of self-formed or formed by like unified interest or passion. or community or tradition or whatever it is. Yes, there is almost always that. And he has like respect for that. That's the big part of it, which I think is like. It's not like, look at those weirdos. But I think that's a big byproduct of someone like growing up in Australia and really spending time litigating as they grow up rather than absolving, you know? Like what's going on here?

1:48:20Griffin Newman:I want to shout out the Czech actor Jan Rubesh, I think it's his name who plays the grandpa and plays Eli was primarily an opera person right yeah he's so fucking good he's so good I mean everyone in this movie playing Amish you just you don't bat an eye you're just like none of it feels like cosplay you're just like yeah these are just guys Viggo obviously only pops out because you're like oh shit it's Viggo but Viggo's got an Amish look to him that's the thing he pops out

1:48:44David Sims:because he's so striking looking even if he didn't become Aragorn but also he's striking in a way that fits perfectly into this film He's human. Oh. Okay. All right. I almost just took a deep breath. David is so angry. I saw, like, two hours in, and I just started doing the tax omniscience. I'm sorry. That's also, like, reductive. Aragorn is a man.

1:49:08Griffin Newman:He is of the race of men. Now, he is. In love with Liv Tyler. True. And she's an elf. And then Cate Blanchett is the queen of the elves. Well, isn't she a different thing? Is she a tree person? Galadriel I'm just letting you guys get this out of your system before so just Galadriel is an elf of course she's in Rivendell High Council or wait is Galadriel in Red Jesus my whole thing with Lord of the Rings is like I'm relatively read in on Lord of the Rings but not in the way that with people who are truly read in it's like you've read the bible are screaming right now. Especially trolling listeners

1:49:48David Sims:yelling at us. But I feel like she's not in Rivendell because isn't Rivendell Hugo Weaving? No, no. Elrond.

1:49:53Griffin Newman:That's what I always forget. So she's in Lothlorien. There we go. She's more of what you would call like I think a wood elf or whatever. And Elrond who is in Rivendell is more of what you call a high elf. Those are more D &D terms. I shouldn't really use them. Just to say about Aragorn, he is man. He is a man. He is a man. He's from the race of men. He's all man if you know what I'm saying. but he is descended from the Dune of Dane also known as the Numenoreans who in Lord of the Rings are kind of like slightly more magic-y men it's why he's very old Aragorn is like already in Lord of the Rings he's almost 100 years old what?

1:50:30Griffin Newman:again the movie does not touch on these things because Peter Jackson wisely was like my audience will say what also the fucking age gap discourse well no Arwen is like hundreds of years old she's an elf

1:50:41David Sims:I repeat except now I'm flipping the dynamic Arwen fucking cradle Robin Arwen is I think 240

1:50:50Griffin Newman:Ish Go off queen What is the lifespan of an elf? She lives about 3 ,000 years 3 ,000 oh That's why the whole thing is she's very young too Yeah so there's no age gap If you're going by experience Okay but what would Aragorn's Life expectancy be? I'm gonna google this just cause I'm not totally sure But he dies at the age of 210 and he's about 90 in Lord of the Rings.

1:51:16David Sims:So in that case, he's kind of middle-aged and she's kind of a teenager within their lifespan?

1:51:21Griffin Newman:So you know what? Back on Eric. What are you up to, buddy? No, I think it's just, you know, but that's what Lord of the Rings, look. How old are the tree people? Great question. I love how often you bring up the tree people. What the fuck are they called again? I learned about them like three weeks ago. They were. Wait, but you surely have seen Lord of the Rings? I did. I think I saw them in college. they did like a back-to-back before. Return of the King is the third one of the Oscar winner, right? So I saw two and three together like in a theater. Two's the tree heavy one. Two is, Tree Towers is heavy on ends.

1:51:54Yeah, and I have read The Hobbit. Good job. And I have retained absolutely nothing. Like you, just my brain will never hold on to them.

1:52:06Griffin Newman:Totally fine. And again, like as a nerd who is... It's like my avatar. Yeah, totally. Your brain just turns off. like but just you know the whole thing with Aragorn and Arwen is that in Lord of the Rings the book that is mostly buried in appendixes and that was Peter Jackson being like I fucking we need some fucking ladies in these movies you know what I mean like the books are just so light on women oh the romance is not it's in the appendices yeah but like that's not that's why in the movie whenever they drop in with it you are kind of like what's up like yeah because it is just occasionally they'll just be like, FYI, I do love you, Liv Tyler.

1:52:44Griffin Newman:You are immortal and I am mortal. So I know that's kind of an issue. Anyway, I'll see you later. I have to go get this ring over to another place. Right. You know, and it's like, I think Peter Jackson was just striving to like broaden out as much as he could to include some ladies.

1:52:57David Sims:I do remember the first movie comes out. I was 12.

1:53:02Griffin Newman:Yeah, I was. What's it? I was 15. So, yeah, you were 12.

1:53:05David Sims:And I didn't read the books until after I saw the first movie. You read all three books? I think I read Hobbit and maybe Through Two Towers. I think I never read Return of the King. But I was very in on the first movie. But I remember being very confused by how prominent Blanchett and Tyler were in the marketing. And then seeing the movie and being like, they both have tiny parts. And now I get it where they were just like, we need to message to people that this isn't some fucking high fantasy sausage party.

1:53:35Griffin Newman:J.R.R. Tolkien was like, you know, he wasn't like big on like the interiority of ladies. Sure. Yes. You know. The romance and the appendices is the most, you know, boy shit I've ever heard. It's a little boy shit. I mean, the rings is kind of the definition of boy stuff. Yeah. And like, you know, that's what that show, the Amazon show that everyone loves that's universally popular. Our favorite show. Right. And inexpensive. Yeah. Produced. A bergen is. Ten times the price. Never seen it. That one tries to, you know, have a younger Galadriel as its main character, I think, because they, again, they're conscious of like, we should, you know, try to mime.

1:54:11David Sims:Isn't that the success that it does feel like Peter Jackson made films that were disproportionately popular with women relative to the books at that time? It's the miracle of those movies.

1:54:21Griffin Newman:Yeah. Like, people now are just like, yeah, of course, Lord of the Rings. It's like, no, no, no. He really put the camel through the eye of the needle with those things. Like, those books are not easy to adapt. They're books, you know? And it's just a lot of information and he kind of just always picked and chose what you need to know and what you don't. You know, and what Stephen Colbert can fill in for you later, right? And then he did it perfectly again. Three more. And then with the Hobbit movies, exactly. Makes sense to everybody. I'd love to do those movies one day. Same. I do love them.

1:54:52Griffin Newman:And I even defend the Hobbits for their sins. God, how long would the episode be, though? I think a tight 90. Yeah.

1:55:00David Sims:The original or the extended cut? 90 weeks long. We would have to do two cuts of each episode. Jesus

1:55:07Griffin Newman:Okay My goodness Something to look forward to So Witness Can we talk about the central Romance of Witness? Yeah I was going to say Can we talk about the Sam Cooke scene? Can we talk about Harrison Ford dancing? How many other times has Harrison Ford danced? Great question I cannot think of it off He does the Lombardi in Frantic No, he does like a half shuffle in Working Girl at the wedding Working Girl, one of his sort of loosest, most sort of. Yeah, because, you know, he's got to dance with like Bitsy or something in order to let Tess talk to Orrin Hatch. Orrin Hatch, wait, who was a senator and who is the character in Working Girl?

1:55:52Griffin Newman:Oh, one second, one second. Orrin Trask. Orrin Trask. Orrin Trask is Philip Bosco in Working Girl. Right, and Orrin Hatch was a senator in politics that I didn't like, right? He was the Utah senator who would occasionally do songs about eagles soaring as well. He had a kind of... Yeah, one of those. David, did you just discover the exact same thing I did? That Harrison Ford, in fact, does dance to Grace Jones in Frantic. Oh, Frantic. It seems to be one of his only other dance movies. Now, I will say, in this clip that I'm watching, I don't know if you're watching it, Griffin, he looks really stressed out, which is, of course, the vibe of Frantic in general, that he's kind of a frantic.

1:56:29Griffin Newman:Yes, right.

1:56:30David Sims:This is him looking, yeah, absolutely about to lose his fucking mind.

1:56:34Griffin Newman:Doesn't he dance in Temple of Doom in the opening? Well, there's the big musical sequence, but I don't think of him as being involved in that. Yeah, he's trying to. He's at the table. He's watching. Does he dance in the Sabrina remake? That's a movie I've never seen, but it feels like there could be a dance there. But isn't he...

1:56:49David Sims:I'm seeing here. Who else is in... Him slow dancing with Julia Orman, but it might be a very minimal. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's also like Slow dancing You can just like Step back and forth He's doing some twirls In this He's got moves He's acknowledging the rhythm Yes

1:57:05Griffin Newman:Good call Okay Oh he gets down And called the wild He busts one Oh yeah And in K-19 The Widowmaker There's the Choreographed dancing scene Yeah right There was so much space For those guys To really You know Move around Yeah I don't know Cowboys and aliens Is he dancing that I'm out of ideas here

1:57:25David Sims:Let's run through Every credit I'm being funny.

1:57:27Griffin Newman:This is certainly, look, Empire Magazine, I invoke it a lot at this time. They used to have at the back page an iconic scene. Yeah. And it would just be dialogue from the iconic scene. Right. You know, it was kind of like their way of a clip of an iconic scene, right? And usually it would be something that was very dialogue heavy. Yeah. Fucking, you know, something from a Kevin Smith movie, right? You know what I mean? Something that was like witty. Crypt and Icon them. And then I remember one time they did this scene. I hadn't seen Witness yet. And it's basically just explaining a scene where they dance to a Sam Cooke song.

1:57:56Griffin Newman:So it didn't pop in terms of dialogue, per se. But it was stuck in my head where I was like, wow, that scene must rock. If they were like, put it on the back page, even though it's not funny. And then I watched the movie and I was like, yeah, like this is one of the like, it's like the perfect level of like aching romance, not to, I mean, just the right amount of charm, right amount of goofiness. And, you know, the editing where they like pause, there are a couple moments where they stop and they're like looking at each other. And, you know, everyone is just like, oh, my God, the world's, you know, everything's about to explode.

1:58:32And then they laugh again. I was also trying to, there's a smile and laugh that Harrison Ford does sort of at the end of it that is like goofy and sincere. And maybe the only time I've seen him.

1:58:46David Sims:Deflate himself in that way. But like normally he is self-deprecating and a little ironic and like undercutting himself and like a little wry. That stuff does quietly only amp up his high status. Yeah. And so but this is just kind of like he's laughing. He's like, I just, you know, I was dancing and like being sweet. And it's a really, really, really big smile. It deflates him in that it makes him human. That's wonderful. That's so much of Harrison Ford's thing is playing everything very close to the chest. And in that moment, you're like, this guy isn't holding anything back anymore. Yeah. It feels like he is just present and transparent with her.

1:59:24Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:59:25David Sims:He's so fucking good. He is? And that song's pretty good, too. I love him so much.

1:59:31Griffin Newman:So. Why don't you marry John Bookman? I would.

1:59:35David Sims:No, I just, like, anytime we get to cover a Harrison Ford movie on this podcast, you do, like, especially at his peak, you're just like, one of the best to ever do it in that exact way that is always kind of taken for granted in its time, even when he is basically like carrying half of the industry on his back. There was a thing, I was watching all the stuff on the excellent Arrow 4K set, but John Seal, legendary DP, this was his first time working with Weir,

2:00:05Griffin Newman:not his last. That's what I was about to say with Ferris. We're about to do tomorrow, record Mosquito Coast, which is our next episode as well. which is right. Harrison really pointedly trying to be like, I won't be charming Harrison Ford. I am going to take you into darkness. We'll talk about all that. And it's the big debate of that movie of like, right. Is he the guy for that? Right.

2:00:25David Sims:And I think he corrects afterwards and is like, I went too far. Audiences just don't want that for me. And he doesn't really try anything like that again. Or he'll play flawed guys, but not. But John Book becomes kind of the range of like where you can go before people start to reject what he's doing. but the great John Seale was talking about how visually this movie is very inspired by like Vermeer and the Dutch masters in the use of light and you know having scenes lit by the sun through the window without trying to be too controlled and painterly about it there are a couple that scene when he's like in having his literal fever dream and she is sitting there watching him and she like that is a recreation Not a recreation, but that is framed and lit in such a way that it was like, oh, right.

2:01:16I also too read The Goldfinch or whatever. The early sort of sitting and grief. That was Dutch Masters, right? Yeah. Absolutely. Of course.

2:01:25Griffin Newman:And a movie that was electrifying. I was so mad. That movie kept me so awake, Griffin. The most awake. I was so very awake throughout.

2:01:35David Sims:They made one mistake at the box office with that film, which was not titling it. caffeine the movie yeah right goldfinch what is this yeah you call it caffeine the movie everyone would have showed up and they would have left happy and awake so awake but John Seale talks about working really fast right that he likes boxing himself in that he likes likes being instinctual and he also feels like you get better results out of the actors because they don't have to sit around and wait that he's very collaborative in that sense yeah Pai Lopone was talking about being someone who also graduated from Roliard and then was doing TV and Thelman was like, this sucks.

2:02:11David Sims:They call me to set and then there's another fucking 40 minutes of adjustment. I'm losing my flow. I'm losing my energy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that she was like this set rules, that Harrison Ford is all brass tacks and loves it and they were like motoring each other, right? And he said, I really try not to direct actors in a way that some other DPs will, where they'll jump in and be like, if you could just do this, it would help my shot. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, not like character motivation directing like weird does, but the sort of like, is there any way you can do this five inches higher or 30 % faster or whatever it is?

2:02:48David Sims:And he said, I try not to do that, but Harrison, the term he used, Harrison has such good motor skills that I would go, Harrison, and he would just go, just tell me what it is and I'll do it. Like, forget the chuffa. And he would go, if it's this and this, and he goes, got it. And then he would do it perfectly however many times he needed it. I mean, no wonder they, you know, work together again. But as you say that now, like, I think about, I mean, the way Harrison Ford moves in movies, you know, like, and suddenly he's, like, spinning around or suddenly he's over here. He does seem to have, like, a real sense of not just where the camera is, but where he needs to.

2:03:25It's a gift.

2:03:26David Sims:Motor skills was a perfect way of putting it because I'm like, I get that he is a great visual storyteller, that he understands that part of his job as an actor is how to carry the audience through the story. I understand that he has incredible screen presence and understanding of the medium and how to pop on it. But motor skills is like, right, that's not even like it's like movie athleticism. Right. And he was like, it's not something he like learned. It's not something he was trained to do. It's truly just he's actually built in a way that makes him better at processing that. And they were saying that, like, he was really fucking nervous at the beginning of filming the movie that he hadn't made that many films, that he was not seen as a serious actor, that the movies he was in had so much spectacle around them that this was the first real test of like, you are the thing the whole time.

2:04:15David Sims:And he's beautiful. And up until this point, every movie he had been a part of, people were like, well, that's the magic of Spielberg. That's the magic of Lucas. Or Blade Runner didn't work, right? That same morning daytime interview, the woman's like, is there any movie of yours that you want to apologize for? And he's like, you know, not every movie works, but you try your best. And she was like, interesting, because I thought you were going to say Blade Runner. Oh my goodness. And you're like, right, at this moment in time, people were like, Blade Runner was Black Adam for him. That it was like the stain on his career.

2:04:47David Sims:But that he felt like... Do you like Blade Runner, Amanda? It does not feel like a huge Amanda movie. And it's, you know, I'm more of an alien person than Blade Runner in the Ridley Scott canon for sure. I'm maybe even more of a House of Gucci person then. But, you know, I live in Los Angeles and there is like a certain type of weather or day or even building where I'm just like, oh, it's Blade Runner hours. And it's, I mean, the visual like language of it. It's also is one of those things where it's like you learned the way you learned that visual look before you saw the movie for people of our generation.

2:05:30Like it just invented it. So, yeah, I admire it. Like, do I fire it up and sit through the whole thing? Yes. No. But, you know, whatever.

2:05:39David Sims:I'm not the same as you where it is. Never been one of my movies. Every couple of years, I'll throw on a cut and give it another shot. And I always respect it more than I love it. And yet, I think about it constantly. Yeah. I am also, like, Sean Young is a real pain point for me. I have a similar...

2:05:56Griffin Newman:I'm a little allergic to her. I'm a little allergic to Sean Young too, but not in Blade Runner where she works as. She works as. Yeah. But it's like I still am watching. Like I think I'm like still so mad about No Way Out, which I know chronologically comes after. Several years later. Several years later. But it's like where I started with Sean Young. And I'm just like, this is I'm going to lose my mind. And then I'm just watching her and I'm just like, please, come on.

2:06:24David Sims:Yeah. Yeah. That feeling of like growing, being a 90s kid and then discovering the 80s Sean Young canon and being like, how did this happen? How did she get so big and work in every genre? I mean, she has a presence. She does. There is like, and no way out. You need something. You need a loose canon, you know? She certainly has that. You need something off kilter. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I'm not being very feminist. But anyway, Blade Runner, they did good. But I think like Kelly McGillis, because Top Gun is such a silly part and is such a Tom Cruise vehicle and she exists just to serve him. And then The Accused is a movie where it's just like, well, Jodie Foster completely takes control of that.

2:07:06David Sims:Right. She's the story of the movie for sure. And Kelly McGillis was offered that part first. Right. And was like, I don't want to play that part. I think it's more interesting to do this. She's good in The Accused. Yeah, she's top bill. And then it's like everyone forgets. It's just Jodie Foster fucking sweeps the awards.

2:07:21Griffin Newman:And it's Jodie Foster's star moment, too. It's like, you know, Jodie Foster, obviously, right, her career has exploded. She's good. Yes. Jodie Foster's a good actress.

2:07:30David Sims:Very good actress. But I think Kelly McGill is kind of like, history doesn't give her enough credits. This is the one you watch. She got both a Globe and a BAFTA nomination. For this? But the whole reason she doesn't get an Oscar nomination is apparent in looking at, I think, the Globes nominated her in supporting and BAFTA nominated her in lead. Yeah. And I have to imagine this is a performance that got caught.

2:07:53Griffin Newman:But I imagine they may have run her in supporting because she was new, right? Like the classic. Didn't pick a side and so she didn't have enough. What else is 85? Is that terms of endearment? No. So 85 is, I mean, it's a movie you love. We all love it. It's the movie of, it's the best movie of all time. It's called Out of Africa. Oh, shit. I mean, Redford got the last laugh, I suppose. William Hurt beats Ford. So William Hurt beats Ford for Kiss of the Spider Woman. Yeah. Oh, sure. And, yeah, it's kind of a bad Oscar year. It's the color purple year. And, you know, you could argue for that in Best Actress or whatever.

2:08:29Griffin Newman:But, no, we had to take the trip to Mountiful. Whoopi should have won. Yes. Oh, yeah. And then Out of Africa kind of sweeps the text. Witness wins editing and screenplay, which are two very sensible wins for it because it's such a, like, well-constructed, efficient, you know, hour 40-minute movie. No, it's more than an hour. We're, like, close hour 55. Yeah But like You know what I mean Like where you're like Yeah yeah yeah yeah Out of Africa gets all the big Sumptuous like scores Cinematography Art direction You know all that shit And then they just hand out these Odd for acting Oscars William Hurt Donna Michi Geraldine Page And then Angelica Houston And Pritzy's Honor Which I have said before Is a performance where you're like Oh did Houston pop off And you watch it And you're like I mean she's fine She's fine She's alright

2:09:13David Sims:But it was this Like sort of like Silence the haters win Right

2:09:17Griffin Newman:Right, it was like, yeah, she told her dad she was going to do it, and she did it.

2:09:20David Sims:Right.

2:09:21Griffin Newman:Even though he didn't like her.

2:09:22David Sims:Dona Maitre, I also, like, saw... It was like a career win. When I saw Cocoon for the first time, I was like, that's the fourth performance I would nominate in supporting actor out of this movie.

2:09:32Griffin Newman:But, like, it's another weird one of, like, no one else up for the award is that.

2:09:38David Sims:I mean, it obviously should have been Christopher Lloyd, Back to the Future. That should have been his Oscar year.

2:09:42Griffin Newman:Sure, absolutely.

2:09:43David Sims:I mean, who do I have? This is a weird year. Is this the same year as Karate Kid where they nominate Pat Morita? No. No.

2:09:50Griffin Newman:Okay. The nominees for Supporting Actor, if you must know. I must. Klaus Morita Brandoar, they're out of Africa. Of course. William Hickey in Pritzy's Honor. He's a billion years old. You know, hat tip. Yeah. Robert Loja in Jagged Edge. Subtle. Who is he in Jagged Edge? Plays a subtle and restrained guy. Wait. Wait. Who is he? Robert Loja? Yeah. I have not seen Jagged Edge in many years. I'm just like reading. Okay. Who is he? Look. Let's look at it. He plays Sam Ransom. Okay. I don't know. I don't know who does that. He's a private detective. Okay. As he...

2:10:23David Sims:I guarantee you he yells a lot. The only thing I honestly remember about Jagged Hedge is that Jeff Bridges' house is kind of my dream house. Interesting. And he does look very handsome. It's a beautiful Spanish-style home. Sure.

2:10:37Griffin Newman:I guess I better throw on the edge. Yeah. Take it to the edge. Yeah. Call me Bono. You're going to get that. Anyway. I gotta find the edge. And Eric Roberts in Runaway Train, great performance. Oh, yeah. Very big performance in that movie. That's a big movie. Yeah. But, you know, it does kind of feel like they went to Don Amici just kind of like, well, I guess he's a legend. Yeah. Right, he's old. Yeah. Those old people, you know. Like, it's a year of old. Out of Africa and, like, these old, like, Geraldine Page, Don Amici, it does not feel like a year

2:11:07David Sims:where the youngs are, like, pumped up by the Oscars. 80s acting wins more so than any other decade have a ton of that. Where like things where as a 15 year old.

2:11:17Griffin Newman:We're cleaning up, you know, mistakes of the 50s.

2:11:20David Sims:A 15 year old trying to like fill in Oscar gaps. And I'm watching these movies and being like that performance won. And then you go to Wikipedia and you're like, oh, it won because of shit from 40 years earlier. I mean, even this being like the Sidney Pollack coronation. Very bizarre. Is really lame. It's just the wrong movie for it. That movie's stinky. Yeah. I don't want to get away from the horniness of Witness because I feel like we need to let we need to fully explore this a little bit. Can you talk about Harrison Ford is like your ultimate? I think he's probably the hottest. Yeah. Like, I mean, you know, like the last solid dude.

2:11:53And some of that is I don't the restraint, the self-deprecation, they're like, I don't want to be doing this, you know, is it's appealing to me personally. That's like that's my flavor of that's that's the vibe that I'm going for.

2:12:11David Sims:There's a still waters run deep thing with him where you. Yeah. You never sense unlike a lot of other 80s macho movie stars. There is always clearly a sensitivity that is barely being covered. Yes, though. I'm also not that worried about he's he's soft. There's like a soft side. Yeah. But there's it's it's not an emo thing going on. No. You know? Yeah. And it's like, I'm not going to have to take care of him at any point. Yes. But he's also not playing Dirty Harry. He's not going to do the dishes. Totally. He is. It's a kind of perfect balance. Yeah. It's like, he manages it very well. And he is also just, you know, classically so handsome.

2:12:56He is like early 40s, which is very unfairly when most men really come into their own. Yeah. And. I mean, look at us. Yeah, you know. I'm just waiting. The haircut is good. Yeah, you'll get there.

2:13:10David Sims:What if I turn 40 and I gain six inches? Oh, six inch summer. Yeah, six inch summer. I'm like, oh, I'm hot now. Yeah, okay. For me, it's kind of still Working Girl. Sure. Is the hottest because he's doing a little more screwball. I was going to say, how much of that is character and performance versus the setting? the setting. Yes. He's kind of unstoppable in this. But it's like he's in the same phase of life. So purely visually there they are together. And he has shirtless scenes in both, you know. And he just really like in the 80s, like we didn't have macro boys in the same way. We didn't have protein shakes.

2:14:01Like we weren't optimizing. and I preferred that.

2:14:06David Sims:This is a year after Temple of Doom, which as we talked about a lot in that episode, at the time the press was, you will not believe how big Harrison Ford got for Temple of Doom. Yeah. And you look at the movie now and you're like, this is maybe the biggest anyone should ever get. We've gotten so out of whack now that it's not that he looks skinny, but the idea of the shape you get into for a movie, and he's still basically in that shape in this, where you're just like, he's just kind of perfect physical form without looking like a mutant. Exactly. Right. He just, he looks healthy and like he can run someone down or like, you know, find a rifle in a large silo of corn.

2:14:48Griffin Newman:You know who drowns in the silo of corn? Who? Angus McInnes plays that character, I believe. And do you know who he is? Griffin. Gold Leader. This is Gold Leader. Beginning my trench run now. Star Wars. He's in Star Wars. Once you said trench run, I was like, oh yeah, Yeah, I know who that is. Yeah, Tracy Letts is fuming. Yeah, Tracy Letts is like snoring. So he gets... Hopefully we got his ass. Hopefully he was on that episode and we got his ass for that. Wait, so he's starting his trench run? Does that mean he's on the good side or the bad side? He's on the good side. He's gold leader. He pilots the Y-Wing and he is really stoic.

2:15:23Okay.

2:15:23Griffin Newman:The whole thing with gold leader is he's the guy who's like really, really measured even when they're getting their fucking Y-Wings blown to bits. He rocks. Great performance. Is he an Alec Guinness relative? No, his name is Angus McInnes. Oh, okay. McInnes. I was hearing it differently. But I think he's of Scottish descent. Yes. Okay. Yeah, great, great actor. This is Gold Leader. Dutch Vander. Yeah, that is, right. Of course, later they told us all their names in the books and such. Yeah. But he's Gold Leader to me. And he's in Rogue One because they splice in that footage, which I love. We love it.

2:15:56Griffin Newman:I really do. It actually, like, leaves me to tears. I like that. I love it so much.

2:16:00David Sims:more than the fucking CGI necromancy. No, that's what you do.

2:16:04Griffin Newman:You splice in just footage that you have

2:16:06David Sims:of them just going, this is Gold Leader. And you're like, yeah, that's all I need. That's all I need. Just show me the old thing. Amanda, I have a gift for you. Oh my goodness. It is a shirtless Harrison Ford action figure. This is real? Yeah.

2:16:19Griffin Newman:Wait, what's this from? Thank you so much. Oh my goodness. Okay, so what is he?

2:16:25David Sims:He's carrying a spear. You can throw out the other pieces that make it more specific. This is supposed to be in Temple of Doom. I was going to say, this looks like Indiana Jones from this. He's wearing khaki pants. It's when he's hypnotized and he quickly turns evil.

2:16:38Griffin Newman:Do I want an Indy? I guess if I want a shirtless Harrison, that's what I want. But do I want an Indy sans hat? David, I agree with you.

2:16:45David Sims:There's a reason I'm gifting this action figure to Amanda.

2:16:48Griffin Newman:You're gifting it because you're her friend.

2:16:50David Sims:They're both. I'm like, I don't need this. And I think this could have some specific value for you. This is really huge, actually, because my kids have gotten, or Knox is the older has gotten to the phase where he wants to like he has all his trucks but he like wants someone to drive the truck. You know? So, and we do have some Harrison Ford in Temple of Doom sized trucks. Hell yeah. I think, yeah. So, I'm going to get rid of this gear. Get rid of that and he's got a weird like a sash. Yeah, but like do you know how quickly this goes into someone's eyes? Right. Yeah. You know, run around with it.

2:17:22David Sims:You don't want your kids running around with sometimes it's good to learn a lesson. String sash as well. That's true. Then it's just shirtless Harrison Ford with a weird marking on his forehead. It's interesting how his legs are attached to his body. So he has a lot of joint flexibility. He's very posable. Which is great, but that also means that the nature of his pants, it looks like he's wearing a khaki diaper. And then khaki pants on it. Unavoidable with a lot of these action figures. Yeah, which... The diapering. Yeah. Guys, you're using terms that are constant on the message boards. The diaper effect is a real plague of the action.

2:17:57Really, really agile. Like it's like he's focused on mobility. Yes. You know? Yes.

2:18:02David Sims:And he's very shirtless. I do think. Shoulders moving well. I do think it accurately captures the appeal of shirtless Harrison Ford in this era. It really does. It's got his body kind of right. And he's not too swole. No, it's kind of correct. You're right. Thank you so much for this gift. Thank you. You're very welcome.

2:18:20Griffin Newman:Apart from Red Hulk, of course, President Hulk. Nothing but respect. What is the swollest Harrison Ford ever got? It's Temple of Doom. It's probably Temple of Doom. At least he's the most shirtless thing. He has some scars on his back. Yeah. He gets whipped in that movie. I mean, I understood what they were, but explaining that to a three-year-old is going to be interesting.

2:18:37David Sims:Can I give you my pro tip? Yeah. Nail polish remover. Oh. I'd say just Q-tip nail polish remover. I assumed as much. Yeah, yeah. You could do that, and then there's the weird mark on the forehead that's, I think, part of his possession. Oh, sure. If you dare to do five minutes of activity on this. Yeah. I can do that. They made a bunch of figures when The Last Indiana Jones came out of all the previous films, but they made like 20 different versions of Indiana Jones versus the supporting characters. So Witness.

2:19:05Griffin Newman:I just, I'm feeling a little bit of stress on like, have we talked enough about Witness, the film Witness, Witness, Witness. Witness. Witness.

2:19:21David.

2:19:22David Sims:Yep. You and I have a lot of shared interests. Sure. Common interest. Film. The movies, comedy, podcasts, life, New York City, bagels, sandwiches. These are all true. Sleep. Oh, I love sleep so much. Sleep rules so much. It is kind of wild how sleep is constantly underrated. I don't think people give it enough credit. And it gets credit. And nonetheless.

2:19:51Griffin Newman:Even when it's bad, it's good. I mean, it's just so true. It's true. I am living proof right now. You are. Because Lisa sponsored the show. And when they sponsored the show, they said, would you like a mattress? Sent over a big honking mattress. And I was like, it's time. I'm switching to a king mattress. You're a king. I'm getting a bigger bed. My kids sometimes will pile into it. I need as much square footage as possible on this sucker.

2:20:17David Sims:Yeah, you need hop on pop space. I do.

2:20:20Griffin Newman:Now, listen, I mean, Lisa, they've got this lineup of beautifully crafted mattresses. They're all tailored for different sleep positions, different field preferences. But they've all got premium materials. They've all got full body support no matter how you sleep. They're all designed and assembled in the USA. They've all got a free shipping, easy return, 120 night sleep trial that you can go by. Awarded the best hybrid mattress by Wirecutter at the New York Times. Exclusively featured by West Elm. They're the go-to mattress provider over there. It's good stuff. Yeah. And they donate thousands of mattresses each year to those in need.

2:20:57Griffin Newman:That's huge. Partner with organizations like Clean Hub

2:20:59David Sims:to remove harmful plastic waste from the ocean. It's nice to hear that they care. And it's nice to hear all those endorsements. But really, I think there is no stronger endorsement than David Sims, the sleepy king, the most tired man in America, saying that Lisa hits just right.

2:21:19Griffin Newman:I love it and I use it. And this is a true endorsement. Oh boy. They're all endorsements, but this is about as endorsement-y as an endorsement gets. I don't know what to tell you. Go to Lisa.com for 20 % off mattresses, plus get an extra$50 off with promo code blank check, exclusive for our listeners. That's L-E-E-S-A.com, promo code blank check, for 20 % off mattresses, plus an extra$50 off. Support our show and let them know we sent you after checkout. That's Lisa.com. Promo code blank check.

2:22:02David Sims:I guess are there any scenes we haven't? I do want to talk about the boobies scene. Oh, okay. Yes, of course. To put it in the most respectful, mature terms possible.

2:22:12Griffin Newman:Because the stages of their sort of relationship, whatever, is like, right, initial, he's helping the dancing her kind of laughing at him a little bit of familiarity then the dancing then her kind of letting him look at her naked this quiet tense moment so electric about that and then the kissing in the rain is the end of it die hard guy shows up and has been he's circling like a fucking vulture he has no chill He's at the funeral. How many ladies are around? I get it. But so he shows up. Yeah. And he seems like a nice guy. Like he's not a villainous character. Totally. But she is not feeling it.

2:23:01She's just not feeling it. And so Harrison Ford makes himself scarce.

2:23:04David Sims:Yes. And then she goes and finds him, which is like, and then he's doing carpentry. So, you know. A little.

2:23:13Griffin Newman:Aphrodisiac. There we go. Yeah. So that, I mean, that scene is always important to me in there. The community even acknowledges their tension. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

2:23:23David Sims:Because I think it's kind of like, it's like so palpable.

2:23:25Griffin Newman:What else are they going to talk about?

2:23:27David Sims:Right. But also they just, they want to keep things closed loop. They want Goodenough to just come in there and just like immediately get her remarried. I also, Weir said that they were really struggling in casting that part. His casting director suggests Goodenough. He's like a dancer? her like I don't we need a real actor for this and she was like just meet with him I just saw him perform I got a vibe right and meet with him and is like the look was obviously right his energy was so like gentle and his smile was so disarming and he said the big math problem he was trying to solve with that casting is the end of my movie is going to be Harrison Ford driving off and this guy walking towards the house right and the audience has to feel like that isn't a death sentence for her they have to feel like if she ends up with him that's not a bad situation right and so even while there's the intention internal in the movie you need to still feel vaguely good enough about that guy and he was like it truly just was when he smiled it worked right and i was like if i can put that on screen four times and he can be himself and just maintain this kind of like sensitive energy, we're good.

2:24:40Right.

2:24:40David Sims:Yeah.

2:24:42Griffin Newman:Yeah, I mean, he is good. Good enough. He's good enough, yes. Absolutely. Great kid performance. Lucas Haas? Yeah. Isn't extraordinary. Look, the thing with him is he became a good actor. He's a good adult actor. I like Lucas Haas all the time. You watch this performance and correctly, what the movie wants you to think is the reaction you have, which is like, this is a kid they, Amish kid they found somehow. They plucked this kid out of like the darkest, like, you know, most obscure part of the country. Like, there's no way, like, there's no way this is an actor.

2:25:19David Sims:Yeah.

2:25:20Griffin Newman:Like, he's so natural. Yes. He's so beautiful. Like, he just looks like a drawing. Yes. And like, his eyes are so incredible. And he's so sweet.

2:25:29David Sims:Can I, like, he's such a cute guy. Can I tell the Weir story about directing the bathroom scene? Uh, sure. Yeah. So, uh, Weir was like very sensitive of like, Like, he's very young. This is a disturbing scene. He's a precocious kid. He's smart. He's read the script. He seems to understand it, but that's very different from actually seeing it. Of course. Right? And he was like, and I wanted to make the bathroom seem very violent and upsetting. So I was very, like, set on, I'm not going to show it to him. We're going to shoot this separately on two different days. And I just need him to act it because I don't want him to have that in his mind.

2:26:04David Sims:And they're shooting the Lucas Haas day and Weir's like, he's just not getting it. And he goes to him and he's like, Lucas, no pressure, but you're like letting down the movie right now. Jesus. It's the way he words it and Lucas Haas clearly remembers it like verbatim. Well, he and Weir tell the same story with the same wording. Right. And Lucas Haas, as like a little grownup, says like, well, the problem is it's pretty hard to stare at like a taped ex at the wall. Yeah. And act really scared. And Weir says to him.

2:26:35Griffin Newman:And Rear says, welcome to fucking Hollywood, bitch. Roll it again. No, what did he say?

2:26:39David Sims:No, he says, you're letting down the movie. We need to figure something out. And he says, here's what I suggest. I need you to look at that X. And I need you to think of the most scared you've ever been by anything in your life. And don't tell me what it is. Sure. But just when I call action, make that the X. What if he said, it's right now. This is the most scared I've ever been by. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he was like, and he did it. And he just nailed it immediately. Sure. And he never revealed what it was. And he won't reveal now? No.

2:27:05Griffin Newman:Sure.

2:27:06David Sims:Spiders or something.

2:27:07Griffin Newman:Yeah, probably spiders. Fucking spiders. Yeah. So for my daughter, it would be when Ursula gets too huge in The Little Mermaid. That is really scary. That's her number one, like, we're not going to watch that part. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

2:27:20David Sims:I don't like her when she's very huge. I want to go back to the bathing scene for a second, because there's a moment in it that I think is kind of like the perfect grace note within this film, which is, you know, he walks up, she turns around, she exposes herself. It's like building with like thriller tension where we're seeing these extreme close ups of like sponge on her shin. We're aware that she's naked, but we're not seeing her naked body. And you're seeing Harrison Ford come upstairs and you know the confrontation is about to happen. And you as the audience are wondering what's going to come of it.

2:27:51David Sims:Right. Right. And he walks up. She turns around. You cut out to, like, a cowboy shot. So you're seeing her topless for the first time and aware that this is what he's seeing. And then it's extreme close up on Harrison Ford's face. And he looks at her and with, like, incredible motor control, just kind of throws his gaze down. Like, he looks and then makes the statement in, if you're not going to turn back around, I'm going to do the gentlemanly thing. and nothing is said. It's great. It's incredible. I mean, Peter Weir does not love dialogue as much as other people. But like the amount that is shown rather than said in this movie is I think amazing and also one of its like great achievements.

2:28:41Absolutely.

2:28:42David Sims:And even if it was kind of nothing dialogue like oh my God, I'm sorry. Like it wasn't full monologue. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They just don't do it. It's so much more powerful for it to be like full fucking like passion of the Joan Fark. Of just like, this is just them looking at each other and cutting back and forth between them. Yes. And then it's like her kind of disappointment that she's not looking, that he's not looking any longer. Right, right, right, right. Even though she knows he's probably right. And then he follows it up the next day with the line. Yeah. Which is just such an exquisite like.

2:29:10Griffin Newman:It's like what's supposed to happen, right?

2:29:12David Sims:Yeah, that's what he's saying. But also the whole movie in 10 words, right? It's like the perfect Harrison Ford thing of he's going to say the least he can possibly say. Right. And he even, I was watching this on like a low volume last night because I didn't want to keep up everyone else in the apartment. And the second half, like, or you'd have to leave, he like almost whispers. So I had to go and like turn it back up. I was like, no, no, no, I need this, you know, I need the full thing. We think they don't sleep together in actuality. It does. No, they don't.

2:29:42Griffin Newman:No, they just kiss.

2:29:43David Sims:Boil over and they kiss in the middle of a field.

2:29:45Griffin Newman:Yeah, yeah. That's the extent of them letting something happen. and they almost immediately are like again confronted with what's the end game here? Right. We're all adults, you know, which is like the theme of this movie. We're adults. But you've got your farm. I've got my shitty Pennsylvania, Philadelphia apartment, whatever.

2:30:03David Sims:Also, if they didn't kiss, they would maybe explode though. Right. Something's got to happen. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This fell past to like. And they're essentially like eating each other's faces. Yeah. It's like that's the nature of the kiss. They're kissing the shit out of each other.

2:30:14Griffin Newman:But she, you get the impression, It's just so good that it's not about how this life oppresses her, but it's also not about how this life is perfect for her. She does have longing for more, but she's not sure she is longing for that, like, entire divorce from this community that does clearly matter to her.

2:30:32David Sims:She has her version of the maybe we should call them X-Women speech with her father.

2:30:37Griffin Newman:I mean, which was perfected in the film X-Men Dark Phoenix, where she says maybe we should call them X-Women.

2:30:43David Sims:It took 10 movies and we finally got there. she asked the real questions and gave the real answers. That scene's a real pack it up, Hollywood. On everything. Yeah, just pack it up. Let's stop making movies. Let me put it this way. I don't think it's unrelated that a global pandemic happened within six months of that line of dialogue.

2:31:01Griffin Newman:Oh, boy.

2:31:03David Sims:Yeah, that's wonderful. But the scene with her father where he's kind of like, I'm seeing too much chemistry. Right. And you cannot allow yourself to be a ruined woman. Right. And then he like, you know it's one of the few expository pieces of writing where he's like you will be shunned and it means that i can't do this and i can't you know can't do that and and it's like it's like real stakes um but somehow doesn't also in it it like matters to them so it doesn't make it seem like bizarre or uh you know weird like just like you know creepy it still has respect for what's going on. Like, their rules are important to them and so it's, like, really important that he still be able to follow them.

2:31:48David Sims:I love that the plotting of this movie is they immediately, all the dirty cops, immediately know what he did. Yeah. He went to fucking Amish country. And then they just cannot fucking

2:31:58Griffin Newman:search for him

2:31:59David Sims:because they don't have bones. They call the closest precinct. And that cop is awesome. He's like, there are so many laps, you know? And he's just kind of like, this is how, he's so great. But I do love that guy, too.

2:32:12Griffin Newman:Like that guy's job is just like, yeah, I don't know, man. They don't have feet up on his desk being like nothing I can do, bro. Good luck to you. Right. Right. And they're like, this is about cop killing. He's like, I don't give a shit. I mean, he doesn't say that.

2:32:25David Sims:When he goes into town, he calls on a pay phone to check on his partner, finds out that he died. That's right.

2:32:31Griffin Newman:Of course, that's why he's right.

2:32:32David Sims:Especially full of rage. So then he calls the chief is like, you can't trace this call, but fuck you. The chief is having a barbecue. Joseph Summer is so good in that shit.

2:32:41Griffin Newman:Because Joseph Summer is really good at playing a guy who is in over his head. Yes. He just wanted some speed money. Yeah. Right? He didn't really want to go out there and be murdering cops left and right. I was thinking about this. Okay, so$22 million. That's a lot of money. Yeah, it's a lot of money. And this is in the 80s.

2:32:56David Sims:It's like a Harrison Ford salary. Okay, but it's like because you sold some confiscated speed or an important ingredient. The confiscated speed. And everyone's buying their speed from Philadelphia. Oh, yeah.

2:33:10Griffin Newman:That Philly speed. But like, how is he using that money without people noticing? Oh, it's a great question. It is a nice house. It was more of a cash economy in those days. He's got a lot of walking around money. But it's still like suddenly like you show up with a new, you know, car. Like, aren't people going to notice?

2:33:30David Sims:It is a flourish I love in this film that when he calls, his wife picks up. Yeah. And she's immediately panicked. You see it on her face. It's not in text, but it's a beautifully calibrated performance. So she's got the hint in her brain of like, has something been going on? I think she knows. I watch it and see it as she knows what's paying for all of this.

2:33:49Griffin Newman:Right. Right, exactly.

2:33:50David Sims:Because she picks up and it's immediately like, this is the guy who's circling in. Right. Is this all about to fall apart? A beautiful suburban home. Right. And even when she tells her husband to pick up the phone, she's very slow to put the phone back on the receiver. Yeah. You see her consider, do I want to listen in? But like more broadly, I am like, where do you what's your strat with like the 22 million that came out of nowhere? If you're like the police sergeant or whatever, like what is the it's a terrible plan. It is sort of what is his undoing. I mean, I like that the way he's able to defeat him.

2:34:25David Sims:You know, he can only corn one guy to death. Right. Corns gold leader. He corns him. Yeah. I'm so glad we're bringing that because explain what happens. And I did want to talk about this. This scene.

2:34:35Griffin Newman:The corns. No, not the. No, the corning is good. He shoots Danny Glover With a big old shotgun Danny Glover probably the most straight up villainous character In that we watched him murder someone else But then he's out of bullets He's got a corn gold leader And Joseph Sommer The chief Takes through a series of Lucas Haas is trying to help He tells Lucas Haas to run

2:35:01David Sims:To protect himself But Lucas Haas doesn't He rings the bell The whole community comes

2:35:06Griffin Newman:And he's got this boy and he's doing the whole like, I'm going to kill, you know, like, you know, and Harrison Ford's just like, you're going to kill a kid. I mean, right. Like, you know, there's this like tension. Let me correct you.

2:35:18David Sims:Yeah, no, go ahead. He has Harrison Ford. Then they walk out of the barn. Right. Then he sees that everyone's there. Right. And Joseph Summer's still like, I'm going to fucking shoot you. Right. And he's holding the shotgun. And Harrison Ford jumps over to their side. Right. And Harrison Ford is the one who's like, you're going to shoot her. You're going to shoot him. Right. You're going to shoot the kid. You're going to shoot the kid. And then he grabs the kid and puts the kid in front of him. And I have a note.

2:35:43Griffin Newman:Okay. Okay. Right. This is the thing. It's not the chief, right? It's the book. Right. And McGillis like shrieks. She's so good. I was like, listen, I think John Book, like everything he does, spot on. So you think this is just him gambling a little too much? I would not put the kid in front of me. And in general, I don't think that you want to give the visual of you ever putting a child between you and a shotgun. But I guess, sure. But I guess Book is the only one who knows this guy. Everyone else doesn't know this guy. Also, he doesn't. And he's basically like, you're a fucking, you know. He doesn't quite do things by the book.

2:36:20But he's like, you're a white-collar cop, right?

2:36:25Griffin Newman:You know, you don't get your hands dirty. You get these other guys, Gold Leader and Danny Glover, to get your hands dirty. I'm going to paraphrase it.

2:36:31David Sims:I forget what the wording is and it's better than what I'm about to say. But there's the scene where he says to him the sort of like lost your way thing. Right. Where he's like, so what happened? Lost your way. Right. And someone's like, what are you talking about? And he's like, remember we used to say that about dirty cops? Yeah. Right. And I think he's calling his bluff on that. When you're saying like, what's his plan with the$22 million? What he's calling the bluff on in that moment is just like, this is unsustainable. What are you going to do? There are fucking 20 witnesses now. Well, that's the other thing.

2:36:57David Sims:Are you going to be a guy who shoots kids? and then you're going to have to shoot more people to cover this up. But I mean, there's too many witnesses. It's never going to end.

2:37:04Griffin Newman:It's the title of the movie. He maxes out on witnesses. Like he really overloads it. But the larger point is like,

2:37:11David Sims:how much are you willing to do to preserve having$22 million? Because it's never, you're never going to get to the other side of this. You're never going to be clean. It's over. It's over. I think those are great points. It's high risk what he's doing. I think grabbing the kid. I agree. I'd rethink it. That's my note. Now, can I give my argument for it? Not for the move, but for the move within the movie. I think the function of that is him kind of recognizing, oh, I could never stay here. That like the fucking three dirty cops show up and he immediately goes back into old school John Book mode.

2:37:46David Sims:Sure. And he's doing fucking action movie moves. He's jumping around. Right. Right. And he's being frivolous in that kind of way. Yeah, he's not being plain.

2:37:53Griffin Newman:This is not a plain. He's not being plain.

2:37:55David Sims:And it's like it clocks something in him and in her of just like, I adjusted to this for longer than I thought I could. And yet so quickly I go back to being 80s movie. Right. Well, as he says in the scene when he fights the dude, you know, the grandpa's like, it's not our way. He's like, but it's my way. It's already bubbling back up inside him. And then his, you know, kind of farewell speech to Lucas Haas happens entirely MOS. You see them in a distance. She's watching them have whatever the emotional talk is that we don't hear a syllable of. We understand. But something has happened and then he's going to have the totally kind of silent goodbye.

2:38:37Griffin Newman:And also, you be careful out there. Among them English is just a perfect kiss off. Yeah. Like where he's like, you know, he knows he's given something up.

2:38:46David Sims:Yeah. Yeah. No, I think part of the point is that even though it works out, he fucks up in that final moment. Sure. Okay. That the fact that it works out isn't actually a feather in his cap. It's what you're saying, though.

2:39:00Griffin Newman:Even if he fucks up, it's just like his presence is just a fundamental problem. Yeah. Yeah. Can't be solved. Yeah. Too bad. I bet he's really good at sex. Just that much anger, you know? There's just something there, probably. I mean, I agree. You know, that's our energy.

2:39:15David Sims:You know he's good with his hands. We know that for a fact. We do. Isn't also like that's when Carrie Fisher finally, you know, wrote the autobiography and was like, yes, we had an affair. And she was just like, and Harrison knew what he was doing. Like, wasn't that the review? Yeah. What better? I mean, he was a good deal older than her. But isn't that the exact review you want in life? Yeah. He knew what he was doing. It was the 70s. It was fine. They don't wear bras in space, you know? It's nowhere near as bad as Arwen and Aerovon.

2:39:46Griffin Newman:originally when Harrison says goodbye there's a long dialogue scene where he's explaining why he's snip no way we know yeah out of here Jeffrey Katzenberg is head of production at Paramount at that point flies out and says like why are we cutting this yeah and Peter Weir explains the scene to him and he was like okay I think that'll work you know so like they successfully kind of bat off whatever sort of over explainy studio notey stuff could have hampered this movie.

2:40:15David Sims:I think a lot of that was really like Ford being completely in line with him and using his movie stardom like as a shield. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a great thing that John Seale says where he was worried about working on this movie and Peter Weir was trying to talk him into it. And he was like, I heard all these stories about people and they go to Hollywood and it chews them up and it spits them out. You're fighting the studio all the time. We got this A-list movie star. And Peter Weir said, think of it this way. we're making an Australian film. I am committed to preserving this being an Australian film.

2:40:48David Sims:We're just going to be working with a lot of people with funny accents. But it speaks to this where Peter Weir was just like, my compass is set. I know what my language is as a filmmaker. I'm not going to fucking bend to these types of notes that will pull this away from being the kind of film I respect.

2:41:04Griffin Newman:Another thing to say, of course, is that Roger Ebert loved this movie when it came out. It was a big hit. This movie was a kind of hit that doesn't exist anymore. Doesn't get to number one until its fifth weekend. Sort of just chugs along. Roger Ebert was like masterpiece. And it's a spring release. Mitch Cockian. And gets like eight Oscar nominations a year later, basically. Not even spring. February 1985. Pauline Kael hated it. She is in her true grump era at that point. Mid to late 80s. But she's basically just like, pardon me with all this farm bullshit. You know, like, just hates it. She also bodies Blood Simple in that review as well.

2:41:43David Sims:In the same review. Yeah. She just like drive-bys Blood Simple.

2:41:47Griffin Newman:She's like casually. He's like, and those Coen brothers will never amount to anything.

2:41:51David Sims:But it like fully accomplishes what Harrison Ford wanted it to. He, of course, immediately is so in love with the experience of working with Weir that he's like, what do you got next? And he's like, my fucking Mosquito Coast fell apart. Right, I've been trying to make this thing.

2:42:05Griffin Newman:He's like, great.

2:42:06David Sims:Both of them missed the Oscars because they go straight into filming Mosquito Coast. They were like, keep it going.

2:42:11Griffin Newman:I think they were also surprised.

2:42:13David Sims:I think this was not necessarily seen as an Oscar movie. No, especially like that far off in advance. And when we bemoan the sort of like cowardice of A-list movie stars. I hate cowards. This is the thing we miss, right? That like you look at Chris Evans. I am thrilled that he's finally doing smaller things, right? Yeah. Not just that, but is fully admitting, like, I made bad movies. Right. Yeah. But it's like, what's the point of being Captain America if you're not doing shit like this? Which Harrison Ford was like, I got Indiana Jones and fucking Han Solo. I got a stretch, right? Right. And now it's become a binary thing of, like, either you're doing Jumanji or the Smashing Machine.

2:42:52David Sims:Like, you are either doing obvious tentpole or you're making something, like, controlled, smaller budget specifically to get the award. this ends up getting Ford an Oscar nomination but what he's trying to do is just make grown up entertainment

2:43:07Griffin Newman:but it's like why can't we have 21 Bridges which wasn't that long ago which was that interesting thing where Chadwick was like shouldn't I do a cop movie

2:43:15David Sims:I was gonna bring up right and you look at it now and it's like disappointing that Chadwick only has 10 movies and one of them is 21 Bridges and that he couldn't find his version of that that was closer to witness level but it's the right instinct and none of these guys fucking do this they don't it's what's aggravating well they don't even really like make genre movies. You know, like things like, you know, a cop movie. It's also, it's on the studios. Yeah. But it's either like massive or tiny. Yeah. And you want them to be like, no, what I got to do is find a good script and get a good director, a proper budget and support to make an actual movie.

2:43:48But then Presumed Innocent like is just now literally remade as a TV show. All these things are TV shows

2:43:53David Sims:instead of movies. Right. I guess if these guys do that, they do it on TV. It is crazy.

2:43:57Griffin Newman:Presumed Innocent, Mosquito Coast, literally Harrison Ford movies of this era. Apple TV is like, can we stretch it out? Yeah. 10 episodes? What's the next one? I don't know. Frantic. You know, like, I mean, all right, so box office, February 8th, 1985. Okay. Number one at the box office has been number one for, I imagine, two months.

2:44:16David Sims:Now, I fucked this up. I spent 15 minutes getting this wrong, I think, on the Blood Simple episode. So I know it now. What is it? It's Beverly Hills Cop, right?

2:44:24Griffin Newman:Yeah. Beverly Hills Cop, which is a runaway sensation from Christmastime or even prior. One of the highest grossing movies ever. Right. And then Witness opening a solid number two to$4.5 million. It's going to make 65 domestic, about 100 plus worldwide. Yeah, 120, I think. Number three at the box office is another holdover from awards season. I mean, Beverly Hills Cop wasn't awards-y, but you know. But it was a big Oscar player? It was a big Oscar player. It won three Academy Awards and was nominated for Best Picture. It is a very serious drama about very real bad things. The Killing Fields? It is The Killing Fields, The Laugh Riot of 1984.

2:45:04Griffin Newman:And not a bad movie, have you seen? Has anyone seen The Killing Fields? No, I've just seen a... It's a very sober, okay drama about a real thing. Right. It's not life-changing in my opinion, but it's pretty good.

2:45:14David Sims:It is funny to, when you watch things from that time, Killing Fields was used as shorthand for like serious, depressing movies. Number one kind of... As a person who watches too many 80s sitcoms, it's like it kind of held the Schindler's List position until Schindler's List. I mean, it's literally called The Killing Fields. Yeah, I was going to say it's in the title.

2:45:34Griffin Newman:Yeah. I always think of the movie The Milk of Sorrow, which was a like a foreign film from a few. Like that seemed like the number one, like two to The Milk of Sorrow, please. I hear this is good. Can I buy a one way ticket to Bummer's? Number four at the box office is another awardsy film from 1984 that came out December that was, you know, nominated for Best Picture and was like a big deal. But it's the final film of like a great legend. And it's like it's kind of from another era. Well, it's not Prissy's Honor. No.

2:46:10David Sims:It's the final film of a great director. It's kind of from a different era. Give me the genre. British epic shit. Oh, is it? It's the David Lean one. Yes. Which I'm going to get the title wrong. Go ahead. It's not a river. No. It's a fucking, it's the Judy Davis one. Why am I blanking on the title? The film is called, Judy Davis is indeed in it, A Passage to Indeed You. Oh, right.

2:46:37Griffin Newman:With Alconus and Brownface being normal.

2:46:39David Sims:One of my favorite anecdotes of all time, Judy Davis fighting with David Lean on the set of the film. And she says, why should I listen to you? What have you done? and he said, I directed Lawrence of Arabia and Judy Davis' response is, I mean, what have you done lately? Points were made. What is... And this is also out of Africa year.

2:47:02Griffin Newman:Right, out of Africa will be coming out later. What is out of Africa... Oh, okay, but it's a different awards year. Right, well, we're in February, so we're getting a lot of leftovers from last year, but what are you asking about Africa? I was asking, what is out of Africa adapted from? A book, a novel by Karen Blixen that I think was about her life. Okay, so it's not also an Ian Forster adaptation. No, it's more of a memoir. It just has similar colonial vibes. Yes. Okay. Mm-hmm. And I'm seeing here the Wikipedia page for Out of Africa was supposedly written by ChatGPT, which is I've never seen this warning on a Wikipedia before where it says this contains hallucinated information.

2:47:42Griffin Newman:But I understand it because that movie is too boring for someone to actually summarize. They fall asleep. They were like, I don't know, Chad GPD, fill in the blanks here. The Wikipedia was just... I assume they were in Africa and they get out or whatever.

2:47:52David Sims:The previous Wikipedia just dissolved into ZZZZZZZ. Yeah.

2:47:57Griffin Newman:Number five at the box office is a film I don't know. Okay. It is apparently a comedy film. It stars Doug McKeon, Chris Nash, Catherine Mary Stewart, and Kelly Preston. I recognize one of those names.

2:48:10David Sims:Well, that's not helping me a ton. Is this the movie Mischief?

2:48:15Griffin Newman:There you go Wow Mischief

2:48:17David Sims:The fuck is that? Kelly Preston does some important work in that film Oh I see I've never seen it

2:48:23Griffin Newman:Is she being sexy in that movie in some way? Yeah I see

2:48:29David Sims:I have no idea I took a guess that it was a Kelly Preston teen comedy And that's the one I knew

2:48:34Griffin Newman:Interesting Yeah I just I don't know It's set in the 50s Yeah It's about mischief Yeah Looks kind of like an American graffiti rip-off-y kind of thing like they're in like a hot rod. Really horny. So Mischief is number five. Number six is a film called The Falcon and the Snowman. Okay. Which I feel like is, I mostly know is like a box office game title, but I think it's Martin Sheen. No, Sean Penn. Yes. Sean Penn. It's one of his early... Timothy Hutton. Yeah. It's like a spy drama. Yeah. Number seven new this week is Heaven Help Us, which is the sort of like, like Catholic, like Kevin Dillon, Andrew McCarthy, Patrick Dempsey, like a bunch of Catholic boys at Catholic school being naughty.

2:49:15Oh, wow.

2:49:16Griffin Newman:Never seen it. That sounds fun. Maybe it is. Maybe it rules. I can tell you Donald Sutherland plays a character called Brother Thaddeus. Sounds perfect. Bet you he's grumpy. I assume. They better play pranks on that motherfucker. Number eight. It's just interesting how I gave you a bunch of really famous movies and now I'm giving you like forgotten direct. Number eight is the Jillian Armstrong movie Mrs. Soffel. Oh, sure. Never seen this. With Diane Keaton and Mel Gibson, which is I feel like a sort of like prestigy film that didn't go over as much as she's an interesting director. Number nine is last year's best picture, Emma Dayas.

2:49:49Griffin Newman:And number 10 is something called Tough Turf. T-U-F-F T-U-R-F starring James Spader. I don't... What the fuck is this?

2:50:03David Sims:This feels like a thrash-in where this episode's gonna come out and we're gonna get 80 DMs from people being like, Tough Turf was the single most important movie in my childhood. I can't believe you guys didn't know about it. It looks like it's sort of a teen movie. I would know about a James Bader teen movie that is important to other people. Not at the time, but after the fact, I did the homework. It's kind of like a, look, Ben,

2:50:23Griffin Newman:it's kind of like a Jersey... Oh no, he relocates to Los Angeles though. I don't know, it's like a punk kid movie. You know, it's like... Okay. Kid is punky and sort of on the wrong side of the track. Okay. I don't know. Apparently, Tough Turf is a song. Okay. What can I tell you? Witness.

2:50:42David Sims:It made$9 million. Witness. Witness. Is Blood Simple out at the box office at this point in time? Oh, fuck. I don't know. I can look it up.

2:50:50Griffin Newman:That's one of those things where it's a little hard to find because the numbers doesn't really chart, like, the tiny release.

2:50:55David Sims:Hey, look. It's not the wrong place I'm going to say it, but I'm going to say it here. We have been hearing that some high-up people at IMDb listen to this podcast now. Oh, really? Our fucking kingdom for box office mojo restored. it restored. I cannot believe what they did to box office. It is.

2:51:14Griffin Newman:We've look, we've done this rant before, but it is one of the most straight up flop. Like you, you improve nothing. You broke everything.

2:51:21David Sims:You broke everything. And the numbers, God bless them. They try. It's not, it's not the same, but the fucking integration into IMDb and IMDb Pro, it's just, it doesn't fucking work. And if we can do anything with this platform, it is if it's a fuck, it's an outrage. There was an episode, Amanda, I think it was our swing shift episode where I asked David to look up a box office stat and in real time we start spiraling. I'm like, I don't understand. Right. I don't remember the episode, but I do think that this has happened also on the big picture where I looked for something and I was just like, what the fuck are we doing?

2:51:56Griffin Newman:Where are my genres? Where are my keywords? Where's my inflation calculator? Who is the new design for? Who is it helping? Nobody. It's fucked everything up.

2:52:08David Sims:No, it was just somebody messed up. They like flipped a switch. It was immediately bad and has not improved one iota since then. Yeah. They have all the data. Yeah. Please, if you're listening to the show and you have any power, run this conversation up the chain, especially if you are top of the chain. That's all I'm going to say.

2:52:26Griffin Newman:I have to pee so bad.

2:52:27David Sims:Okay.

2:52:27Griffin Newman:You start wrapping it up. Amanda. That's how I do this.

2:52:30David Sims:Big picture, my favorite podcast. Thank you, Griffin. Like, check my favorite podcast. That's very kind of you to say. This is this nice thing that David does where he goes to the bathroom. The compliments time, he just leaves. I do also have to pee. I have to pee, too. And then I have to fly back to Los Angeles. Tonight? This afternoon. Wow. Yeah, it's this and I'm out. Are you a movie watcher on planes? I probably will be on the way back. I usually save work for the plane of things that I need to prep for. That makes sense. For whatever reason, I'm free on this plane. So I don't know what I'll do.

2:53:09David Sims:Yeah. Maybe a little playoff baseball. It's October, everyone. Interesting. In the current timeline of this podcast. Because I was going to say I've been on too many flights recently. But this time of year, planes, I'm like, oh, let me catch up with the movies I skipped in theater six months ago that I would never watch under any other circumstances. Yeah. And there probably are a couple that I should do. But then I'm already thinking about like all the movies that are like in theaters that I skipped screenings for that I do need to go see pretty quickly. You know, and that and even if I'm not that interested, see Tron Aries.

2:53:46David Sims:So we must face Tron Aries. It's like, what if I keep this time for myself? Sure. Not cede it to the movies. Yeah. And just watch movies that I want to. But in that case, I usually just watch Moneyball for the 45th millionth time. You know, another. It's extremely difficult. Another interesting thing is not this is not at all interesting. no one cares. So I've been flying some with my children. And so it's impossible to actually like watch a full movie. But I will pick movies that I've seen a bunch of times and can just have on the screen with no dialogue. Yeah. Because I know what's going on.

2:54:20And so I can check in for two minutes if the child is like playing with a toy for 30 seconds. So maybe I'll watch a whole movie with audio.

2:54:29David Sims:This is exciting. On this flight. This is exciting. Very exciting. Thank you. Everyone should listen to Big Picture. Yes, please do. Everyone should listen to Jam Session. Thank you so much. You're the best. Dob Mob for life. Thank you. I feel like we put a couple things on the cork board as Amanda episodes. Oh, sure. Locked if it ever gets them. Apollo 13. We're always going to be on the lookout for any excuse to get you back here. I would love to come. And I'm going to be back in New York more. Or you guys could come to Los Angeles. It's about this guy. I don't think so. It's about this guy.

2:55:03David Sims:It's about my three children. I mean, I get it. Three children? First I'm hearing this. Yeah. Thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate, review, and subscribe. Tune in next week for Mosquito Coast.

2:55:14Griffin Newman:Mosquito Coast is next week, baby. Let's call him with Sean Fantasy. Unless he, you know, like... He's reliable. Marty Supreme Hayes just sort of like crashes out of the streets of New York tonight.

2:55:24David Sims:Unless something crazy happens in the next 24 hours.

2:55:27Griffin Newman:Sean's very reliable and organized, I would say. Yeah. Sort of his vibe. Yeah, not a chaotic vibe. He shows up.

2:55:33David Sims:Lined up.

2:55:34Griffin Newman:He shows up. And I think he's excited. So he's coming to us from the Criterion collection. I know that. He's doing an early morning Criterion. He's going to come bags full.

2:55:42David Sims:Three bags full. One assumes. Yeah. One assumes. And as always, Hasbro's Indiana Jones Adventure Series line has a gimmick where each of the figures comes with a piece of an artifact. so I end up having to buy a bunch of figures I don't want to put the things together. So I just want you to know that you are the proud beneficiary of a shirtless. Thank you, Hasbro, for the first and last time in my life.

2:56:15You want me to ask any more questions about Lord of the Rings? Please, yeah. Any other questions? Sure. So Gollum, what's up? What is he?

2:56:24Griffin Newman:Well, I know this. He was a hobbit. Yeah, he was a sort of proto-hobbit. Yeah, exactly. And he got corrupted? Yeah. Like morally or like a file? Ring so powerful make you go crazy. Griff ain't wrong. Yeah, no, I did see that. The ring both extends. You're like, what I like about the ring metaphor, right, is like that it's like he's alive because it keeps you alive. But imagine if you just didn't die. Like you would become this like monster, right? Like you're supposed to be dead. So how old is Gollum? Great, actually. Okay. Gollum age. Because it's like he's 600 years old. Dang. Because the idea is that he recovers the ring right when it gets chopped off Sauron's hand.

2:57:03Griffin Newman:And then he's basically just been living in a cave wearing the ring.

2:57:06David Sims:Oh, he mostly doesn't wear it. He just touched it. We're going to answer all these questions with Lord of the Rings colon the search for Gollum. Hunt for Gollum. The hunt for Gollum.

2:57:15Griffin Newman:Is the weed indica or sativa or a hybrid? What would you say? Do they ever shout that out? How is that figured out in like any of the... I would say pipeweed is supposed to be more of a tobacco, like than a marijuana. Yeah, but have you looked at Gandalf's eyes lately? You know that meme of Gandalf where he's like, Gandalf seems like an indigo guy. He needs to chill. Wizard. No, is a wizard. Oh shit, of course, sorry. But Gandalf is basically like sort of an emissary from the gods. And what are the politics in Lord of the Rings world of wizard and elves? You mean like Democrat-Republican? Related to the politics and the Harry Potter, you know?

2:57:56David Sims:Yeah. Saruman's kind of like a Joe Rogan who's created a manosphere of acolytes. So maybe Saruman is like Theoban. I'm acutely aware of the elves because the elf who fights for elves' rights in Harry Potter is named Dobby, which people tried to call me from time to time. Big fan. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I know that's like a fraught topic. And that's the only fraught topic in the Harry Potter universe. It's the only example of bad politics.

2:58:26Griffin Newman:Well, no, the thing, right. The thing in the house elves in Potter, that's sort of interesting. But they're slaves. The whole thing is like, right. But what's interesting about it is that Rowling, you know, the author of Harry Potter, does investigate rather like, it's, you know, I like that Hermione is like, this seems fucked up to me. Yeah, right. Because it seems totally fucked. And everyone else, it's kind of like the wizarding version of like homelessness where everyone else is like, oh, I don't know. that's just like how it is. Right. I haven't really thought about it. Whereas then in Harry Potter, there's the goblins and they're like, what's up with goblins?

2:58:57Griffin Newman:It was like, they're kind of greedy. It's true. Hook no, hook no money. They're in charge of the banks. We don't trust them. Yeah. They don't like working on Friday. I mean, in book seven, there's finally a little bit of like, a goblin gets to speak and is like, we, you, you steal our shit. Like, we're goblins and you've like stolen like goblin, you know, treasures. Yeah. Okay. But it's a little late, like for her to be like, oh yeah, goblins, they have rights maybe. I don't know. All right, so elves versus wizards. But in Lord of the Rings. Do they work together? Are they? I'm sorry, in which world are we talking?

2:59:31Griffin Newman:Lord of the Rings. In Lord of the Rings, elves, so like the elves are like the first. Right. It's like God makes elves, right? And puts them on Middle Earth and they're beautiful and immortal. And like eventually man shows up like thousands and thousands of years later and it's like a completely different kind of thing.

2:59:48David Sims:Am I wrong in thinking that the elves are born magical and the wizards are humans who learn magic? You are wrong. Fuck.

2:59:55Griffin Newman:You are wrong. In The Lord of the Rings, the wizards are just Istari, which is just like, they're gods. There's only six or seven of them and they've been put on Middle Earth by God to serve as sort of an emissary. Is there a higher and a lower Earth? Great question. No. No? And I don't really know how he sort of came to Middle Earth. Okay. I don't really know. Why is it called Middle Earth?

3:00:23David Sims:But if I'm Amazon, I'm licking my lips and going, there's story potential here.

3:00:26Griffin Newman:Five seasons,$500 million. What's above, what's below? Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. It's a translation of the old English word, Midingard.

3:00:36David Sims:I don't know. By the time this episode comes out, it will probably be settled matter. But the recent story that Amazon is running the numbers on if it is cheaper for them to not continue making the show and pay the Tolkien estate like$200 million in penalties to not make it anymore. I mean, their continued insistence on making that show

3:00:56Griffin Newman:and being like, people watch and like this, like is getting increasingly delusional.

3:01:03David Sims:They have sunk so much money.

3:01:05Griffin Newman:I think season three. And they will have to pay so much to skip on it. Season three. Season three is filming and is happening, but I think after that they may have to.

3:01:12David Sims:They, right, contractually, they have to do five seasons or pay a lot of money if they bail sooner. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Incredible. Good stuff. I've seen every episode inexplicably. Hmm.

3:01:26Griffin Newman:Blank Check with Griffin and David is hosted by Griffin Newman and David Sims. Our executive producer is me, Ben Hosley. Our creative producer is Marie Barty Salinas. And our associate producer is AJ McKeon. This show is mixed and edited by AJ McKeon and Alan Smithy Research by J.J. Birch Our theme song is by Lane Montgomery in the Great American Novel With additional music by Alex Mitchell Artwork by Joe Bowen, Ollie Moss, and Pat Reynolds Our production assistant is Minnick Special thanks to David Cho, Jordan Fish, and Nate Patterson for their production help Head over to BlankCheckPod.com for links to all of the real nerdy shit Join our Patreon, Blank Check Special Features, for exclusive franchise commentaries and bonus episodes.

3:02:12Griffin Newman:Follow us on social at BlankCheckPod. Subscribe to our weekly newsletter, Checkbook, on Substack. This podcast is created and produced by Blank Check Productions. Thank you.