Michael Rubin on Building Fanatics Into a Billion-Dollar Empire

23:50So where can this continue to grow? I mean, I think I see what you do in terms of the marketing and branding and storytelling around it has been a game changer, right? You've changed. I think the halo over that business now is considered a cooler business. Yeah, guys like you, when we got into this, a year until you called and said, hey, now we're going to do a trading card deal. We like this. It's cool. And, you know, we're doing so many things that work for the collectors. We do these rip nights once, twice a year. We bring out hundreds of athletes into all the hobby shops, which like those athletes connect with, you know, all.

24:20By the way, if you collect trading cards, you're the absolute best sports fan. That is like, that is a crazy great sports fan. So I know when you know all the different athletes were we've had hundreds of athletes that have been into hobby shops This is the biggest day they do in business. It brings such a hell think about Tom Brady now opening You know opening hobby shops all across the country. I was at a store in the Hamptons this weekend It was packed people fighting to get in the store So at least we're bringing passion and excitement into this hobby that was never there before I think before it was like in the corner and now it's like you know baseball is probably the best example there were less than 10 baseball players that collected baseball cards when we bought tops january 1st 2022 now there's more than 100 current baseball players that collect cards think about the debut patch that was the best invention i think in the history of trading cards we put a patch on a player on the first game they play there's only one in the world when they get done that first game we take that patch off of them so you know think about if otani when he played his first game in the major leagues we had that debut package we weren't doing it yet OK, now we take that, we put that into a one on one card.

25:25And who would want to have Otani's first card? Who would want to have KD's first card? Who would want to have Michael Jordan's first card? So it's like such a special thing we can do with the debut patch in it. I mean, that's been such an innovation in the trading card business. So, I mean, and we're just always thinking about product innovation, market idea, how to make the collector experience better. And the majority of the revenue still comes from the trading cards, right? Yeah, it's, yeah, 100%. So what will that business do? I mean, that business next year will be over$3 billion in revenue.

25:55And how does that break up across the different verticals and all those secondaries? Yeah, so that's just primary carts, basically. And that's really us selling to hobby shops, us selling directly to collectors, us selling to breakers, us selling to people like Walmart and Target, who are really important partners for us. And then we also created a platform called Finax Collect, which is both a live commerce platform and a marketplace. And that'll do over a billion dollars in GMB this year, where we charge about a 10 % commission onto the sellers. And that, I think, we think will double again next year.

26:30And talk about leadership that you mentioned earlier. Mike Mahan with Collectibles and Matt King on your gambling vertical are rock stars. They're both beasts. But, you know, you can't, if you don't work with the best talent in the world, you have no chance to be successful. So, you know, I can have an idea to get into Collectibles. I can have an idea to get into sports gaming. Without Matt King, we wouldn't have the gaming business that we have today. Without Mike Mahan, we wouldn't have the collectibles business we have. And the same goes for Andrew Loki and all the different, who runs our commerce business and all the different executives that we have.

26:58So you said in 2019, you got your commerce business where you wanted it to be. No, I said I got it to a point where it was big enough to where I could think about other things. It's not remotely where I want it to be. When I think about our commerce business today, I think about all the things that we're not doing well. I think about, you know, how do I keep getting better at designing and developing product? I think about how do I keep getting faster to the customer? I think about how do I keep personalizing the experience better? I think about a thousand things that we need to do better. I just got to a point to where I thought we could now reinvent the company into a digital sports platform.

27:29I'm not near done on that. I haven't even started. Is it still the biggest vertical? Yeah, it's about$7 billion this year. And is it continuing to grow every year? Yeah, absolutely. It's a single digit grower today. We're so much more focused on the experience and how we can absolutely delight our fans. And, you know, look, we live in a world of social media. You can get 99 % right, you get 1 % wrong. That's what we hear about. We're focused on how do we become perfect and we're far from perfect in that business. So what can that grow into? Look, I would hope that the Fanatics commerce business by 2030 is a$15 billion business.

28:07Still focused solely on licensed product? 100 % on licensed products. I think we can double it over the next five years. Are there licenses you guys don't have? I feel like you have everything in the world. No, no, not at all. Do we sell things from everybody in the world? Absolutely. I mean, do we work with everyone in one capacity or not? Absolutely. Is there so many more rights for us to acquire? We haven't even acquired a quarter or a third of the rights that we could acquire. Really? Absolutely. What is it all, like global sports? I mean, global soccer, we're just getting started in. And I mean, you know, even here today, you know, more than half the merchandise we sell are merchandise that we buy from other third-party brands.

28:43So, you know, we buy an NBA jersey that Nike makes. We buy a Adidas College product that they make. We buy a, you know, newer hat. So there are many things that we sell that we don't make. So there's far more rights to apply over time. And the Travis collaboration was new for what you had done in the past. Is there more of that in store? Yeah, you know, for us, I think one of the things we've learned is I think what we did well up until the last couple of years is service the average sports fan well. But there's so many niches in a business like that. So you could have somebody like you is going to be, you know, more streetwear, more culturally relevant.

29:22And you could have somebody who else could be a really high end customer. Somebody else who's like, you know, what's really incredible, you know, female different products. You know, kids is a completely different business. So you've got to think about how do I serve each customer well. It's like we introduced Lululemon this year in a partnership with the NHL and Lululemon. And hockey fans absolutely flipped out for that merchandise. OK, you think about what we're doing with offseason and Kristen and the team there. That's where you're going after a different customer base. So with Travis, what we knew was Travis has a feel that nobody else really has to feel about where is culture going.

30:00And so he came to us and said, look, I want to make sports products and I want to do them with you. He said, I want to do everything. I want to design the product. I want to pick the product. I want to do everything. We said, Trav, all you, brother, go do it. You know, whatever you want to do, we're going to do it. You know, it was one of the most successful launches ever. We had, you know, an eight figure launch over, you know, a few days with only half the colleges. That's wild. And the Lululemon partnership we talk about. So you have the NHL rights. Do you go to Lululemon licensed product from them?

30:30use your NHL license and then you - No, the way it generally works, like, look, Lululemon, you know, we knew there's a real need for that type of product. You know, customers are screaming to us, you don't have that. You know, customers are telling us, we want this product license. Lululemon was off talking to the leagues. And then eventually the kind of, you know, the partnership of them making the goods and selling the product to us that we then sell to consumers, you know, came to fruition. And Mitchell and Ness and Lids were two companies you acquired as well, right? Absolutely. And they fall under the commerce business?

30:56Yes. So how do they play into the big picture? Look, the way you got to think about it is you have different segments. Like Lids is like a younger customer. It's like, you know, again, more street wear. You know, cool. I want my different hats is kind of the core business. Richel Ness is more vintage. You know, we also make, you know, a lot of Nike merchandise. So all the NFL merchandise from Nike, we actually make that merchandise. And so you serve in each business kind of different customers. And our job is to make sure we can take care of every customer for whatever they want. So it's a$30 billion business.

31:25No, you want it to become a$30 billion business. Today, the commerce business is a$7 billion business. We hope that it could become a$15 billion business over the next five years. I think you're thinking about kind of our valuation has been in the$25 to$30 billion range. Yeah, I'm just thinking about your valuation, man. Yeah. I'm always thinking about your valuation. I'm not thinking about it at all because what I want to think about is how do I build the best company in the world? And then we're just getting started with that. And there's so many things that we can be better at. There's so many things that we need to lock in and focus on so we can just keep doing better for the consumer.

31:52That's the thing that gets me most excited. We've built a brand that a lot of people know. I want to build the most beloved sports brand in the world. I haven't even started with that yet. Your passion for all three verticals is the exact same. It's like each one of them is your business. Well, I think I have three children. Then I have three businesses. They're also my fourth, fifth, and sixth children. So that's the way I think about it. I am incredibly passionate about it. I think each has its unique set of opportunities and challenges. And I think that gets me really excited. So for not one second, when you started introducing these two new verticals, Did you even think about taking the foot off the gas on the licensing business?

32:27You knew commerce had to continue to grow at the same pace. No, I think quite the contrary. What I thought was, as we got into these new businesses, that if we did them really well, that they would help the original business. And that's exactly what's happened. Because if you think about, like, next year, we're going to spend$600 million in advertising. And$300 million of that advertising spend will be in the two new businesses that we created. And$300 million will be in the original business. So there's a real halo effect. Because where do you go? You go to Fanatics, you go to the Fanatics app, you go to Fanatics Sportsbook, Fanatics Live, Fanatics Collect.

32:59And so, so many of the businesses are really under the Fanatics brand that it really creates a halo for each of the businesses. Can you still think about future verticals or is it too early to think that way? I think it's too early. I think we need to be locked in on how do we keep... Again, if you looked at each business, we sat down and talked about, you know, with the CEO of each of these three businesses, what do they need to do? They have so many things that they need to do. And so, you know, we're talking about the duopoly that exists between FanDuel and DraftKings, and they have 75 or 80 percent of the market, and I'm a paltry 7.5 percent.

33:33Glass half-pull, I've gone from 1 to 7.5 percent. Glass half-empty, I ain't shit. And so I've got to think about how do we really build that market share? How do we keep making the value proposition better? How do we, you know, keep building there? And so in each business, we can tell you all the things that we're not doing well that we need to do better. So it's too early for you to even imagine what a media play could be, a ticketing play, any of that. Correct. I know I don't want to be in the ticketing business. I've been pretty clear about that. I think offering tickets to our customers through a partnership.

33:59We have a partnership with Ticketmaster where they give us tickets, then we give discounted fees on what they would normally pay to our customers. We love doing that because that's a service that we're providing to our fans. I don't like the ticketing business. I think it's a hard business. I think it's hyper-competitive. I think it's the economics. Look, no one likes the ticketing company, so I don't want to be in a business where nobody likes you. Yeah. Yeah, without question. That experience is always unenjoyable for people. Can everything live on one app? Well, certainly you always have a separate app for sports betting because of, you know, need to be 21, need to be in each state in the regulatory environment.

34:40Right now, the Fanatics app, which is growing incredibly fast, has the commerce business. It has free-to-play games. It brings all of our loyalty together, shows you what your fan cash is. and then it kind of links to, it has scores, it links to sports betting, it links to the collectibles business. So I think more and more can get a one-up, but no. Can we ever have anything one-up? No. The athletes that you have around your business, I mean, you have these incredible relationships and they're true, genuine relationships. And I think that's because of who you are, but there's certain champions like in your life.

35:15There's ones that are obvious, like that are doubled down with everything you're doing. What was the strategy as you thought about someone like Tom Brady or you think about Travis? And Travis, you explained, and his cultural impact. And there's no one in the world like him right now. But what was the thought around Tom Brady and how he adds value to the business? Well, take a step back. I think for me, I say this all the time. We all learn definitely. I think you probably learn more like I learn. I'm not, I don't really read. I actually haven't read a book since 9th grade. True story. No one believes me.

35:49I do. What's that? I do because it's the same. Yeah. So, yeah, I appreciate that. So I don't read. No, I read emails, but I'm not reading books. I don't, I wasn't, I was terrible at school. Everyone knows that. 780 combined on my SATs, that's like, you know. That's bad. You have 400 for putting your name on the test. Barely met at high school. Didn't go to college. I was in Villanova for part of a semester. And so the way I learned is by having great people around me, and then we each learn from each other. So we're talking about Travis or Tom. I think we're each learning from each other all the time.

36:24And I love that. I'm going to learn from you and you're going to learn from me. And so if we take a walk in the Hamptons, we each ask each other questions. We're learning from each other. And that's kind of the way I grow. And so for me, I think what's been a little different is, one, I believe that we would have nothing to do without the incredible people that play on the field, on the court, on the ice. And so I'm hugely appreciative of all the athletes that we've built a business around. Number two, we have direct relationships with 5 ,000 athletes today. We pay hundreds of millions of dollars directly to athletes that sign memorabilia and trading cards for us, that we have partnerships with.

37:00And for that reason, we think about how we can do great things together. And so my view is if I'm really invested in the people that we work with that are really important to us, they're going to be really invested in us. And you just build this super authentic long-term partnership. I think that's what we have with certainly any of the key athletes and most of the big athletes. We have truly special partnerships. They're a win-win. And then we're trying to help them in the things that are important to them. I mean, I spend a lot of time. I bet you 20 % of my week goes to helping my friends and things that they're very involved in and invested in.

37:33And I think that that pays dividends just because your relationship is that much stronger and you're helping each other grow. Like, I want you to do great and you want me to do great. I want to do that with everybody. I want everyone to go off. It's one of the things I don't understand about certain people. Like, I want everyone around me to do fucking great. Yeah, I can attest that that's how you are for sure. And I've always been that way. And other people, like, they're rooting for people to go down. They're rooting against people. I'm not like that, man. I want everyone in the world to do amazing.

37:59Yeah. Like, I want to push everybody up I can. People have helped me so much. Why do I not want to help everybody around me? So, you know, I think that mentality just makes these relationships extra authentic and special. He's helped you. Oh, so many people. I mean, you know, the first person I always think about is the Kraft family. I mean, Robin, Jonathan Kraft, I mean, those guys, you know, found me in 2008, 2007. You know, they helped me a lot. I wouldn't be who I was today without them, both from some of the relationships that they helped me forge, but also, you know, just the great business advice that came along in the years.

38:29You're learning from all the people that are around me. I mean, people, you know, talk about whether it's, you know, I mean, you brought up Travis and Tommy. I've learned so much from those guys. So, like, I'm always picking nuggets up in every conversation. that's the way I grow. So, you know, I've had, I think I won't be where I am today, which is still nowhere without, you know, the huge influence that so many people have had on me. When you say still nowhere, like I can understand the mentality. I think people like you, people especially that like took this unconventional path, did poorly in school, dropped out of college, had this mind that you have.

39:05It's like, you're always going to have this level of like imposter syndrome and feeling that you're not there. but do you not take one second to ever look at what you've built? Not one second. I don't care. Like here's the way I think about it. Until I build a brand that's a beloved brand by hundreds of millions of sports fans, until I build the most important company in sports, one of the most important companies in consumer products, I haven't done shit. But it is. It's not. It's not. And by the way, I don't want to be comfortable. I'm just getting going. And you talked about like I know while I'm sitting here right now doing this interview with you, there's a bunch of people plotting against me that's the world we live in yeah and so that's competition that by the way that's healthy you know it makes you better because you know the better your competition is the better you are and so i like that but um i'm pretty humble about where we are like you know i think in our original business the vanguard business you know we're 25 of where we want to get to maybe we're half from a revenue perspective but from a you know all things i want to do from a product innovation from a consumer fan expression we have so much more we can keep doing.

40:11And we think about it every day. We've just, by the way, in the last year, we've increased NPS, that's net promoter score, by 20 points. It's so hard to do because consumers are tons that like what we're doing better and better. We've reduced shipping costs. We've increased shipping speeds. We're better in stock. You know, we're just doing so many things better in that business. But we still have so much more to do. In the trading card business, we're launching Premier League next week. NBA, 10-1. NFL, spring of next year. We're going to ingest those rights. We're going to double the size of the finance collect business.

40:40In the betting game business, we have a poultry 7.5 % market share. So why would I be comfortable? We haven't done shit. You know, you're such a good human being. Like, I don't think people realize that no matter how busy you are, you pick up the phone or leave a voice note back any time of the day from any city in the world, right? But when you got to accomplish something in business, it feels like it doesn't matter who's in your way. Would you agree? Look, the way I think about it is who we have to put first always is the fan. Okay? And if we think that way, we're going to build a truly extraordinary company.

41:15And so, by the way, we haven't always thought that way. And we haven't always, like we are maniacally focused on the fan. How do we make sure that we are always just consistently enhancing the fan experience? If you put the fan first and you keep figuring out, how do I do things better? Think of when we created Gannatics Sportsbook. We didn't just say, hey, we're going to leverage our brand and our customer base, we said we've got to build a better proposition, so better value prop. So we're going to give$600 million in fan cash back to bettors next year, okay? We're going to, you know, I think we've had hundreds of thousands of bets that we've already taken losing bets and made them winning bets based on our fair play policy.

41:56It's like we made it better for the fan. And by the way, if you're listening to this and you bet on sports, I think you're crazy if you don't bet with Fanatics, which is a better deal, It's a better value proposition. And so we're always thinking about that. So what I'd say is I have huge respect for DraftKings and FanDuel. I have huge respect for all of my competitors. They all scare the shit out of me. Okay? But I'm going to make sure that I figure out how we can keep doing things better and better. I'll give you a perfect example. When we bought Tops, the number one thing I heard from collectors was we hate redemptions.

42:26If you're a trading card collector, redemption means you've got a card that says I owe you because it didn't have the autograph. So, you know, I keep going back to Kev because of you. But, you know, I got a KD card. And instead of it being a KD card signed, it's an IOU card for that signature. Yeah. And Topps had 70 ,000 cards that it owed people. Let's say other competitors owed hundreds of thousands, many hundreds of thousands of cards they owed to consumers. OK. And people told me it's the number one problem they had. So I remember calling Tony Clark, the head of the baseball union one day, I said, Tony, we have to eliminate redemptions.

43:04He said to me, explain to me exactly how redemption works. I said, look, it's when the card didn't get signed by the player and now you owe that card to somebody. And it was such a massive problem. I said, I want to eliminate them. He said, well, how do we eliminate it? I said, we need to work together. We need to take all the relationships we have and you have. We need to get the players to sign the cards more quickly. We need to be better at it. The players need to be better at it. We got to work together. Well, today, Tops is four times the size. So we just had the same rate. We have 280 ,000 redemptions.

43:33If the rate stayed the same, we have less than 10 ,000. Wow. Yeah. Because we grinded it one by one. So if you're a collector and you listen to this, you know I'm right. By the way, our competitors, they didn't do shit. They sat there fat and happy. Yeah. Okay? And so that was just an example of like solving a problem. That was the biggest problem I heard in 2022 was redemptions. We virtually made that problem go away. Now then you're off to the next problem, the next problem. So you gotta keep thinking about putting the fan first. So yes, if someone's in the way putting the fan first, I'm with the fan.

44:04So it feels like those companies were run by people that just didn't care about the fan first. And for whatever reason, it was to them a business and they cared about the bottom line and they never even saw it as a business that was serving fans. I think in the trading card business, people were, they got the COVID bump, they got lucky. No one cared before. They were fat and happy. They were just milking the cow and taking profits out. Now, I could look back to things that we did wrong in our original business, the commerce business. The thing is with us, though, when we make a mistake, we acknowledge it.

44:34We fix it. We're right on it. And so that's our mentality. You need to have that mentality. If not, someone's going to take you out. That's just the way it works. Don't you find mistakes motivating in some ways? Love them. Like inspiring. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I was just saying yesterday, we just did something in another business that I'm an investor in. And I think it's not working. And I said to the CEO of the company, look, you know, we got into the NFT business in 2021, raised$100 million outside investors. Within four months, I knew it wasn't going to work. We gave our investors the money back, basically, and said, like, this isn't going to work.

45:05That was a fast, great L I took. I wasn't embarrassed. I was proud that I acted quickly. And so, you know, like, I like taking Ls. Like, you tell me I take an L. Great, no problem. I'm going to figure out how am I going to be better? What are we going to do? How are we going to be stronger? If you don't have that mentality you're gonna be again you become irrelevant. Why fanatics fest? What was the vision around that I had been to So many music festivals We just saw these incredible showings and then when we got in the trading card business. I Went to the show called the national Have you ever been in the national Chicago?

45:40It's in different places. Have you ever been I went once in Chicago Okay, so you walk into the national you have two feelings one you're overwhelmed and enjoyed by the pure quantity of collectors that you're like this is insane. Yeah. Like what a you know what what an incredible. Where are these people coming from? What an incredible hobby that I'm fortunate to sit in the middle of. The second thing you see is it feels very antiquated. It feels like something from you know 20, 30, 40 years ago. I don't think it really changed much from um you know when I was in high school and you cared about middle school and cared about trading cards.

46:12It feels that antiquated. And so then I went to Comic-Con. I'm like, man, this is sick. This is great. Why don't sports fans deserve something like this? I think we were lucky. We recognized because I think next year we'll pay close to$2 billion to sports organizations, teams, leagues, players, players' organizations. And we knew that we had the ability to bring everyone together because of that. And so when we called the NBA and the NFL and Major League Baseball and WWE and UFC and NHL and said, hey, we want to create this first of a kind of sports festival. People said, hey, you know, fanatics, if you're behind it, we're going to do it.

46:53We had 70 ,000 people show up for the first time. I mean, you tell me you came there, you brought Ant and KD. You know, what do you guys think when you came to this, you know, first of a kind of sports festival? Mind blown. Right. And by this year, it's going to be 50 times better this year. People that weren't there last year that are coming this year, Nike, Dick's Sporting Goods, USTA, FIFA, Premier League, F1. LeBron. LeBron. There's so many people that are coming this year that weren't there last year. So to me, it's kind of an honor for us to be able to create this Percivicon Sports Festival.

47:28It's incredible. I think 70 ,000 people the first year. I think we'll have more than 100 ,000 people this year. and you know the joy that you see in people's faces to come and they spend whatever it is 60 or 70 bucks to come and be able to see each activation from each league all these different athletes and celebrities and artists and streamers all there it's pretty incredible and is what is there a business model behind it like for this is there a world where you're making money on this type of thing this is not something that's ever going to be a money maker for fanatics i mean it's about how do we bring together all the best parts of fanatics all of this sports ecosystem for the sports fan.

48:07It's a marketing moment for fanatics. It's a marketing moment. Yeah. Can you take this outside of New York? Look, we've had many of the richest countries in the world come to us and say, please bring this to us. Yeah. We've had many of the biggest states say, please bring this to my city. The outreach to people that are dying to get a fanatics fest in their country or city is pretty preposterous. it is the hardest thing I do each year by a mile like forget about everything we talked about in our three core businesses Finax Fest is the hardest thing by far organizing hundreds of athletes celebrities and artists, 100 ,000 plus fans all these sports properties together that is a really hard thing to do but it's worth it when you see the happiness on all these fans' faces and by the way, last year when we did it for the first year we got a lot right, we also fucked a lot of things up we didn't have autographs right we had crazy lines and things that weren't working and autograph some pictures and, you know, we had security issues and, you know, you get back, you say, okay, like, I remember, you know, like, Jalen Brunson had an issue where we screwed up.

49:10It was completely Fanatic's fault. And again, you talk about making a mistake. It wasn't like, oh God, like I lost. It was like, okay, we didn't get this right. People signed up to get his autograph, his picture, whatever it was. We mismanaged the lines. We had issues with, and you're like, okay, I fucked it up. Now, how do I fix it? And then you go into like, just a complete focus on how do I fix these things. But that's the way you build any business. And so for me, I think one of the great things is most athletes really care about their fans a lot. Okay? And Fanatics Fest is a way that the greatest athletes, streamers, artists, celebrities in the world can connect with their fans in a pretty unique and special way.

49:47And I love doing that. Yeah. It's really an incredible experience. Even the conversation we were just having, okay? And what you thought you were going to do for your panel. Now you came in, you're more motivated. You're charged up. Yeah. You want to build the best family you possibly can because you're that competitive. That's the way we keep making things better and better. Yeah, without question. Is there anything else you want to do in your life? Like, is there something still on Michael Rubin's bucket list? You've owned sports teams. You have three wonderful daughters. You've traveled the world.

50:14You're still building this juggernaut of a business. And I know in your mind, you're just starting. So I believe you in this say that. But is there anything else that you fantasize about in your life? There's nothing else I fantasize. Here's what I say. I'm living my dream every day. getting to do this 15 17 hours a day is the greatest joy in the world if i'd say what do i do in my life i need to be healthier i need to take better care of myself um you know i gotta find um you know i finally you know i was like a little pudgy kid uh a couple years ago now i'm 40 pounds lighter i'm not like i don't work out enough um i need to sleep a little bit more and you spend a little more time with my kids i have three incredible kids and just you know how do i how do i get that balance right but i just love the action of building fanatics you know so much that it you know i struggle with balance yeah i get it but do i have an issue i'm never gonna run a sports team again i have no interest in it um i'm not like i don't need anything else in my life like i just want to make finax the greatest company in the world you know um and then look i think the other thing is i do love giving back but i think that's a respect like i think that's a responsibility when you're in my position and you're afforded this incredible opportunity of building companies like ours you want to make an impact so we do a lot of that work we do with the the Reform Alliance that I started with Jay and Meek and Robert Kraft and everybody else.

51:27And I do it with Make-A-Wish. And we love doing stuff like that. The amount of wishes we're gonna fulfill at FNAX Fest is incredible. Any athlete that comes to us that has an open wish, and we can get those kids there, we're fulfilling those wishes there. That's an honor to do stuff like that. So I think I like making a difference in this world because it's fun, but what is my ultimate passion? It's building fanatics. Amazing, bro. Well, Michael, I feel like we just took one of our beach walks on steroids. Thank you, my friend. I'm fucking honored always to be able to get this game from you and learn more about your business.

52:01I appreciate your friendship. This is our June boardroom cover story with the one and only Michael Rubin. Tune in, subscribe, boardroom.tv. Thank you all for watching. See you later. Love you, brother. Love you.