Are We Failing The Next Generation? | Jordan Stephens | Zack Polanski

0:00Today we're getting down with the trumpets. Depending on your age group, you either know exactly what I'm talking about or you have no idea. I'm talking about the amazing Rizzle Kicks. Now on this show, sometimes I have really obvious reasons to speak to people. Other times I'm just really fascinated by someone because I really admire them and there's a whole host of things I could talk about. So today I'm going to be talking to Jordan Stevens about masculinity, creativity, education, green politics, pretty much everything because he is a dude.

0:32hello zach chris packham here i hear you've signed up to eco talk that's very bold of you brilliant um and if you don't mind me saying very bright of you too if your audience is half as smart as you then they'll sign up too at ecotalk.co.uk

0:56Welcome to Bold Politics. Hello, Zach. We don't have a set agenda as such. You're just someone that I really admire, both the kind of politics that you've brought to both your music and now to acting too. Yeah. And the way you've kind of conducted yourself in the public sphere for ages. And I know you said you've got lots of questions for me too, so it seems like let's have a chat. Yeah, I feel, listen, I'm an oddly, wonderful time to be in front of you of course, it's been I guess you've had a lot of attention on you in the last month or so and the conversation around coming on here was prior I guess to even the last week where there have been some great wins for the Green Party I don't know, listen, I've become more politically engaged as a consequence of me talking about things that are important to me, health mental health, well-being the emotional well-being that's a massive part of my journey as as a human to um to just feel more stable and and obviously as i've grown more interested in that and wanting other people especially young boys and men to feel good about themselves it's really impossible to do that without ending up stumbling into politics because often people are led astray i believe by by um arguably less important matters.

2:15And then, so yeah, I've become more politically engaged and as that's happened, you have come to the forefront and I love what you do because you confront conversations head on. And I think that's something that's been, I don't know, man, I feel like the left has fallen into a overly puritanical muck where I think there's been a few years now where people want to say things but they're not 100 % sure that they're completely accurate and that seems to be the only time in which you can say something. and I feel in that time there's been a whole dare I say ecosystem built up on the other side of the agenda and they just talk constantly, they just say and it doesn't even matter if it's hyperbolic or inaccurate it's just about speed and delivery so even just seeing you talk head on to these people about what you believe in with no you know um hesitance it's just it's just nice it's good to see that's really lovely i want to be lovely straight back actually so i spoke to a friend this morning and said that i was uh speaking to you and how excited i was and then he's a father of a young child a young boy and he said to me will you ask him about male role models because in me for him you're the epitome of what a good male role model as he's in the public sphere.

3:38So how important are male role models? Wow, that's cool. That's cool. Look, male role models are essential. You know, male role models, female role models, you know, people modelling a lifestyle that I think is suitable for adults, I think is good. I believe in passing down teachings, I believe in guidance, I believe in mentorship, I believe in the importance of elders. These are all things that have had a massively positive effect on my development and my maturity. I mean, and obviously I think there will be some natural inclination for young men or young women respectively, you know, looking to older versions of themselves for what they should and shouldn't do or looking for boundaries.

4:30or so I don't know man I look I I ended up in the space of talking about gender because I had I was a very self-destructive person in my 20s I was living a life that is well certainly in my generation was sold as the what what we should desire as as young men money attention admiration and just didn't serve me greatly. And so in order for me to deal with big questions like, why did I become famous so young? What does that mean to me? Why do I seek validation through this thing or that thing? Through asking myself these questions, I started to see these patterns in how other people experience themselves.

5:17And I wrote a book about it, Avoidance, Drugs, Heartbreak and Dogs. and that was a purely, it's not prescriptive, it's not how-to, it's not a, you know, 15 ways to change a life, it's not that. It's my experience, my journey, because I know that when I was going through heartbreak, when I was really struggling to understand my emotional world, there wasn't necessarily many cultural references for me to lean into, certainly not for straight men. So I, yeah, so from doing that, I've spoken more about it, and yeah, no one has to go down my route. like I don't I don't I see the allure of other people online and and I I get it on a shallow level people want like a big house and a big car and all this stuff but I just know that what I've learned having experienced having you know one of my biggest blessings in my life is I've I've met seen and hung around with all different types of people you know and being all around the world and been through four or five different wage brackets like it's and I've arrived at this point where I'm like wow do you know what's fantastic like feeling connected to myself to um my partner or my immediate community you know I really one of the reasons why I want to go out and talk and do talks and do this and whatever else is because I actually feel good when I feel like I'm serving my community that's something that I can't it's not like a quantitative feeling but I wish it was because then you could market it yeah it wouldn't be great if we had barometers of connection like oh I want to be with this person because they have managed to create connection but obviously we live in a society where you know capitalism doesn't financially reward people who are emotionally connected in many cases it does the opposite.

6:59Genuinely one of my favourite moments on TV in the last few years was actually on New Year's Eve I'm sure it wasn't filmed on New Year's in fact I know it wasn't but the Jules Holland yes but just seeing the love you had for your partner and the way like you celebrate each other in a way that I imagine other couples would go or maybe this is too much of a display of love. I guess I'm probably saying it's exactly how I feel about my partner. Yes, great. In fact, the only time I've broken down as a politician was the day I won thanking him, just in terms of the emotion of public love, of how you feel about that person.

7:28Yeah, man. Dude, listen, straight up, I didn't realise the extent of how encouraging and motivating love can be. And it's so funny because I remember as a millennial boy, so many of the conversations were anti-love, in a funny way, because obviously we were young, we don't understand what we're saying. But love was almost like, well, it was definitely considered a weakness. If you loved your partner, I'd be like, oh my God, you're in love with them. And it would be reflected sometimes in what we'd listen to and see on screen, the heroes we celebrated, Roff and Lone Wolves. All of these messages were kind of fed.

8:02So I didn't know. I actually really didn't. My mum and dad have always been friends, but they've never been together. They weren't conventionally married. There's none of this, So I didn't have any blueprint, never had it really supported culturally. So it's actually been quite a shock. I've had other partners and I've experienced something towards, obviously I had connections with them, forms of love with them. But I never felt until Jade that I was mature enough to actually be present in a relationship and actually give and receive in the way that was necessary. Teach someone how to love me for a start, and then be able to listen and give them love back.

8:39And it's great. And this is what I want everyone to know, especially men. Like, I swear, man, like, I really believe the root of people who are avoidant and less willing to throw themselves into love is because, actually, when we were young, we had our hearts broken in ways that we couldn't conceive. And so we spend our whole lives overcompensating. But actually, it's just such a... I mean, you know, speaking to you, for you to have that emotion to understand, And God, man, like I really, I feel like I wouldn't have been able to be here without the support I have. What a blessing. Yeah, absolutely.

9:17That's the kind of vibe we should be pushing, you know? Like, don't we want to rise with our community? Like what an amazing feeling that is. And why don't you think that vibe is there more present? Do you think it is just capitalism? Is that literally it? Well, obviously capitalism seems like a big, it's like a big word. I guess, look, a consequence of the capitalism that we're using is hyper individualism or individualism, let's say, you know, it is of the benefit to a certain fraction of society to encourage people to think for themselves, build themselves, improve themselves. You know, even things like self-love as a movement have kind of been commodified.

9:56I said this the other day because, you know, there's been a big wave of entrepreneurship being pushed on, especially boys. everybody's got to be an entrepreneur because ai is coming and this is coming and that's coming and everybody's got to start their own business everyone's got to have a business and you've got to build a business otherwise you're going to be left behind you know and i remember i remember hearing this and being like you know not everyone wants to be a boss man like not everyone wants to lead a company like how can we possibly have a population full of business owners who are the who's the people buying into your business is it just and then is it just the size of your business in comparison to other businesses.

10:32It just felt odd because I've always believed that community is an organism. Everybody plays a role within that society. And if everybody manages to put that into harmony, then you build for everybody. There's a quote I saw on TikTok the other day, which was like, this guy said, in order to conduct the orchestra, you must turn your back on the audience. And it was delivered with the vigor and definitiveness of somebody who has stumbled across a beautiful quote. and I felt it immediately I thought okay I get that a lot of people need validation they need they need to understand whether it works on an audience capture it's a massive thing you would have seen in politics and online but then a part of me was like all the conductor's audience is the orchestra you know it's the orchestra and they're all playing and the conductor would have no job without the orchestra without a proportion of people with a skill set who are willing to follow the guidance of a person and face the audience themselves.

11:33Like, it just felt like such a fascinating quote because it was like the nebulous of perhaps our confusions in society. This is amazing. And do you think you come to these positions because you're an artist and creative? Although, as I say this, I know plenty of creative people, I guess, who still talk or experience love, whether that's for a partner or their family or their friends. Yes. Oh, my God. Everyone, well, look, everyone feels and is drawn to being bonded to something, you know. Actually, you know, some of the issue I find with discussing, talking to young men, is that they start to build a bond or arguably a codependent relationship with the concept of capitalism.

12:08Like, people will identify with the idea of profit and status. Identify with it at the expense of their own well-being. And I found that when I say something like, you know, what are my favourite things to do in life? Drink water, hug my girlfriend and walk my dogs. They don't want to hear that. they want to hear someone go nah man I spent 100k on a car and now I feel great you know like I've got 75 girlfriends you know like regardless of the actual if we were actually to really interrogate what's going on it just it makes sense and then everything has purpose right then it makes sense then the 5 ,000 hours they're working is suddenly worth it if somebody like me comes along and says I just like water and walking my dogs then they're going what the fuck what's the point in this why am I doing this yeah yeah definitely Why am I working not being paid?

12:58We know the issues of redistribution or lack of in society. So sometimes people have to identify with the thing that's destroying them because the reality is too painful. Well, it's interesting. So if I move on to politics a little bit, I talk a lot about wealth tax and it strikes me that sometimes if people aspire so much to that wealth, what they hear is you're stopping me getting the thing that I really wanted to have, which was the cars for fame. how do you think we break that down is it our job to break it down what where do you think we go from there well look one thing i want to be clear of as well is like you know everybody everyone desires financial relief like that i i don't want it to ever want anyone to think that it's one of i personally one of these people who's by all accounts i'm rich i've i've worked hard since i was 18 you know thrown into the limelight and i've been able to financially alleviate myself from the immediate pressures that most the majority of people experience you know i'm very aware of that i would never go to somebody like what's the point in earning money like now right now really in reality you've got to earn money right you know that's there's no debate on that my point is and why i'm in alignment with something like wealth tax is just that there there is it is it is so worrying the direction of travel in which the the the accumulation of money is happening like accumulation of money as a concept feels wild to me if it was to be of you know i would like to think i model in my life uh what i would like to see on a larger extent you know i'm very generous jade is incredibly generous because we understand that we work hard and so it's almost our responsibility to help people around us that's what we want reflected you know and the numbers get bigger and people get greedier because if you earn 20 million and you know someone wants 10 million of that because that's the rules then they go no that's 10 million and they keep thinking about that 10 million but it's difficult to to remember that you're in the top 0.001 percent of people in this you know and that is what's necessary in order to help other people afford butter right do you know what i mean and i suppose the flip side of this there's been this kind of big public conversation i don't think it's been particularly nuanced around the incel culture and young men and the risks to them.

15:14Is that all a natural product of the things that you're talking about? If we don't challenge them, this is kind of the result of what you end up with. That's interesting. I don't know about the, yeah. I mean, look, the incel culture is scary because it's loud. I would say, actually, I think we have a general isolation issue because individualism is coming at the same point as a terrifyingly speedy advance in, you know, computing technology, social media. Like, it's hitting people quick, you know? And in the same extent as one of the biggest dangers to youth is, you know, I'd say, like, sexist AI.

15:56You know, AI being programmed with these bizarre algorithms in them, which you would have heard about, you know, like if you're a boy. Like, for me, I remember when I first got a TikTok, It was just boobs. That's all I had on my TikTok. And it's kind of insulting, I think, to us as men. That's the only thing you'd be interested in. But it's the same for girls. Young girls, if they're on TikTok or if they're on social media, they get advertised makeup. If they're taking a bunch of selfies, and then suddenly they're very aware. Young kids generally are just very aware of what they look like. and then they can expect more perhaps than we would have done.

16:36But the intersection between what I think to be damaging to men and the form of capitalism that we're in is literally just that. It financially rewards what I believe to be anti-human behaviour. And I've spoken about this before. And I watch videos all the time of billionaires or millionaires on their deathbeds. I watch interviews with them, conversations with people who have got incredibly fun. I watch people who run around telling everyone that they're rich. And I, in my heart, and I might be wrong, I'm sure people will come at me,

17:12they don't strike me as people who are particularly happy. And I know this seems to be the thing. Rich people aren't happy. Well, I'd love to be rich and unhappy. Again, I'm not saying don't try and earn money, but the people who have too much, I just don't see, I can't see it reflected in how they're being. There's often problematic relationships with drugs too. Now I'm not looking to demean or stigmatize drug use, but there is problematic drug use like with very wealthy people. Yeah, of course. But look, I just, it's like, I don't know how to explain it. Like, yeah, it's psychopathy. You know, that's the thing of the system is it's like, you can sacrifice your connections.

17:56You can actually like cut off people close to you. You can not have a relationship. You can put all of your living waking hours into numbers on a screen. and you get money. For sure. That's what I'm going to say. That's the wild thing. So it's like there was a certain point, past the point of alleviating this pressure, where it's like, what have you sacrificed in order to be there? Like if you see the things and the rhetoric that's coming out of the mouths of some of the richest people on the planet. Elon Musk is a very obvious person. Dude, it's like you can't, that money doesn't change you. It doesn't mature you.

18:35it doesn't give you people skills it doesn't give you emotional I'm trying to say there's nothing else other than revealing who you truly are and then putting it on steroids you know and then there you are you saw it a lot with the whole bitcoin stuff it made a lot of awkward people incredibly rich overnight and it didn't make them unawkward they were just awkward people with loads of money you know it's money doesn't mature you that's a big thing and we need a lot more maturation in society because we're obviously being babied in a lot of aspects. A lot of things are very easy for people now.

19:09Complex conversation. I was talking to a young person recently the other day and he was saying that a lot of his friends are getting into the kind of Trump, Tommy Robinson type stuff because they see it as a reaction to feminism. And there was kind of that sense of girls were told they could be everything and have everything. Now, of course, we know that's not true. We still have huge gender inequality in society. Sure. but is there some truth to that that story hasn't been there for young men the story for young women isn't there either and it's problematic but it feels like there's almost no story at all for young men I think listen I don't know maybe we can leave an edit point in case Ross wants to edit this out but I think I think I think feminism has been brilliant let's be clear about this like the last 40 years worth of literature books stories interrogation evolution protest like legislative change which of course in some scary ways is being pushed back against now but let's not overlook how great it's been.

20:11I said this to my friend the other day, I'm a millennial man it was not great, the conversation was not great when I was a kid this stuff that we're now terrified of little sound bites that kids are hearing on social media and repeating in school, we would just say that in school it's in films you know we would again follow these lone wolf characters who would disregard women sometimes harm them you know and that was like celebrated in hollywood that was what i was raised and so we have to rewire and a lot of us millennials have had to you know go to therapy unlearn a lot of stuff follow this stuff but i just wanted to be clear that you know i'm glad that the conversation has got to the point where me too can can shift some things you know again there's a lot of work to be done but things have shifted girls are doing well in school you know they really are doing well.

20:57I think they do. A lot of girls believe they can do more. Girls are going, women are going into the city. They're taking up, again, it would be great if they could take more, more like CEO roles, but like, but in positions of power, I work with women. The majority of people I work with at like a decent level within media and entertainment or whatever else are women, incredible women. You know, I think I've got like six female managers, you know, so they're, yeah, I think there's a lot to be said for feminism. and the issue is with boys and men, this is something Catlin Moran spoke about with her last book, What About Men, is that because there's been this legacy of patriarchy and domination, there hasn't been an interrogation of the male experience in as many forms.

21:40This challenge now, or this transitionary phase, is uncomfortable to a lot of people because there's no books on boys coming to terms of their sexuality or sexual development. or I mean there will be some books but I mean it's not like a staple thing people still feel uncomfortable talking about penises talking about masturbation this kind of stuff is just you know there's no shows there was no shows coming of age shows other than in betweeners you know it's just like it's always funny men talking about feelings or growing up or whatever else you know again more and more things are coming out now but I'm just saying that's an example of ways in which we have lost an idea of how to guide each other right and yeah with Gen Z boys look just as a blanket comment I don't take teenagers seriously.

22:27No, I really mean this, which is controversial because teenagers can do some incredibly damaging things. But for me, my current stance is they are children. Boys and girls below the age of 18 are children. If this kid comes in with a Trump hat at 15, that's my responsibility as an adult to model why that's ridiculous. Not to lambast them or, Or why do I think that the kid knows what he's talking about? I think kids like that want a reaction. They want attention. So the question is, why does that kid want attention? Not, why is he supporting Trump? He doesn't understand Trump. He doesn't understand Trump.

23:03He doesn't understand Tommy Robinson. They don't get it. They don't get the implications. I can't remember understanding the consequences of my actions at that age. Because I'm a child. I'm malleable, you know? I think I disagree. And I'm listening to you very carefully because you're speaking powerfully. I think about some of the 16-year-olds I meet, and they're some of the most articulate, like, considered know where they're going, not all of them, and without a doubt for lots of them I'm hearing what you say. But then I go, is that just my bias? So what I'm saying is if they agree with my politics, then I think they're brilliant and I take them seriously and if they disagree with my politics, I find them ridiculous.

23:36So you would think that, like, a 16-year-old would have enough life experience to have, like, a reasonable idea of what they want from a politician? Yeah, I think about some of the young people that I sit down with when I do workshops or Q &As. And I'm not talking about the kind of sometimes I go in for 10 minutes and I'm ask some quick questions. There's no time to really get to know people. But before I was leader, I'd sometimes spend two, three hours with a politics class, for instance. Or more widely, kind of a life class, like talking about well-being and where we wanted to go in life and what we were doing.

24:06And some of them really have their heads screwed on. Now, I'm not saying they might not change their minds in a few years, but look, when I look at my 20s or 30s, I'm 42 now, I go, actually, I didn't know what I was doing then either. I knew what I was doing in the moment but I still changed so do I take my previous self seriously or do I dismiss that as oh I didn't know what I was doing that's interesting yeah I hear that I definitely think there's going to be smart exciting apt young people I mean I've met a couple of inspiring 8 year olds but I still don't take it seriously I wouldn't have a 16 year old running a political party I'm with you there I think what I love about young people in society is because they haven't been brutalized by, well, hopefully not, like the reality of responsibility and consequence to an extent.

24:59They have quite an un... Like, you know, like when I think about young people in my family, and they just are immediately drawn to conserving the environment, for example, because they just like the environment. They don't grow up and think, I'm going to litter. they actually in fact I remember buying one of my family members a litter picker like you know I bought him like a big dinosaur because I know he's like dinosaurs and then a litter picker and he just played with a litter picker for ages he loved it you know but I think and he doesn't like that there's rubbish in the Thames like these are the kind of things that are intrinsic and that's where we can get what we can get it's like that's their outlook on life and I see that but again if a child is telling me something provocative just me personally I can't take that seriously I can't take that seriously because because there's a load of reasons why people act up you know and it's never like anything anything in life I believe is out of a desire for or lack of love like those are the two parts of it you know and yeah as an adult it's my responsibility just to to stand there in that moment and engage like engage I'm not gonna I'm not gonna punish your kid for doing that.

26:13Be like, all right, what do you like about him? Why? And so I guess reflection would be Greta Thunberg, for instance, was doing amazing things at 14. Michaela Loach, who I've interviewed on this podcast recently. I think she started very young too. But these were people who have a really clear vision. They do. And so you take that bit seriously. No, listen, Greta as a punk almost is dope because, yeah, she took that tenacity about the world. It's odd that you said Greta, and I was mentioning about young people's, I guess, understanding of the environment. I guess maybe that is one space in which having this unaffected view of the world creates a kind of total clarity of thought.

26:54You know, why are we destroying the planet that I'm on and we're on and we should love? I can get that. I can get behind that, you know. A journalist said to me the other day, I won't name who because they probably shouldn't have said this, but their 14-year-old loves me. And I was like, that's really lovely to hear. And they said, you're just so clear about everything that you stand for and that really resonates with them. And again I thought of course some teenagers see the world really clearly. Now some people would argue that's simplistic but actually I think a lot of the things we're talking about are quite simple like our planet and our kind of sense of self and well-being has been destroyed by a small group of people who want to control the resources rather than redistributing the resources.

27:31And I think sometimes when you're younger you can see that more clearly before you've picked up the baggage and narratives that were constantly told. 100%. And also, just to be clear, I'm not saying that there aren't exceptions. Yeah, yeah. Some people are exceptional. You know what I mean? For sure. But if the day comes when a 14-year-old boy is genuinely leading an actually serious assault on the rights and goodwill of a majority of people because they've adopted a fascist attitude and they maintain that, then I'll eat my words. You know what I mean? but I would argue even in that space they're being supported pushed and lifted by adults who aren't to my opinion providing them with true eldership or guidance but it's a great thing to challenge, that's just my stance I know you champion young people I champion young people?

28:24My thing is this year, I get quite protective over teenage boys just generally, because I think they're innocent to an extent you know well not to an extent I think all children are innocent and I think it's the responsibility of all adults to look after all children that's really that's really it you know and there's been a lot of attention rightly so on the protection of obviously women and girls but it did used to be you know for example violence against women and children that used to be what it was and it kind of changed and then now there's this pressure on teenage boys for example to be these like aware mature like moral I don't know like they just I can already hear people like taking this apart I guess look I don't I think all children should be given life skills I'm up for a total refresh of the school system I really believe that you know in terms of emotional understanding empathy interpersonal skills I really think that needs to be more encouraged but I think focusing on on the fact that boys can be more can be more damaging like they're ticking time bombs worries me.

29:32Because boys, because they're children, can be victims of abuse. They can be more prone to grooming, radicalisation. That's what I'm trying to say. If you tell me that there's a 14-year-old boy who loves Trump, I don't see that as somebody as a threat. I see that as somebody who's been led down astray because of something. I don't think someone's born and goes, I know what I want to do, support fascists. I don't think that happens. I think kids learn that. And it's reactive to the environment in which they've been growing. I'm with you entirely now. I think it's really good to interrogate it. Do you think a 16-year-old should be able to vote?

30:0216.

30:06Well, I don't think I can answer that. That's fair enough. I don't think I can answer that. I don't answer for everything. Yeah. It's tough because there is sense in the elders voting, but then there are such huge generational shifts, especially nowadays more than ever, that is probably felt more acutely by young people. So it's tough. I guess if I'm putting the argument, because I feel strongly they should be able to vote and see the government changing it, that if they can pay tax, if they can put money into the system, I think they have a right to be able to say this is how we do it. They can be employed at that age?

30:37Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, okay, well then, yeah, I hear what you're saying. Yeah, that makes sense. Well, then my conversation, I guess, around teenagers, I'm willing to open up slightly maybe past 16. Okay. But if I can maintain the, you know, the almost protected status of all children and our responsibility as adults whilst allowing, say, 16-year-olds to start entering into the political sphere. Okay, I can concede on that. Well, it reminds me of, sorry to go to a much darker place, but it was Shemima Begum, a young woman who was groomed and went off to fight with, I think it was ISIS, and then that kind of whole conversation about should she be allowed to be back?

31:16And it just seemed very obvious that someone who was under 18... 100%. Yeah. Yeah, but that's despicable. It's despicable. And listen, you'll see the goalpost change if the person looked different. It's that simple. if you look at how they treated Carl Rittenhouse in America then you kill someone yeah I mean I think you're spot on racism lying throughout the entire country the goalposts move this is why it's so encouraging to be talking to you and understanding there is a movement opposing some of the louder more prominent people on the other side of the spectrum because the double standards hypocrisy and shifting of goalposts is out of this world Yeah.

31:55And, you know, that, yeah, Shaman Began would be another example of that. Jordan, I'm loving this chat. We're going to go for a quick break and then we'll be right back.

32:06Zach has signed up to EcoTalk. He's taken the great plunge. Why has he done that? Well, he's a man who sees sense. Firstly, brilliant network coverage. Secondly, fantastic customer service. And thirdly, of course, all of the profits are going to nature restoration. Yes, we're spending them on rewilding. And you can go to our website to see what we're up to. You can also get some wildlife tips from yours truly. So come on, follow his lead and sign up to EcoTalk. All you've got to do is go to ecotalk.co.uk and it's simple, absolutely simple. And look at the benefits. Life is beautiful.

32:50You said let's talk about schools. So let's talk about schools. Yes, please. What is it you want to say about schools? Well, I wonder, like, you know, so what is your policy? Would you, if of course given the power, go in and restructure perhaps like the base level of what's expected in the curriculum? Yeah, I think there's a few things there. I think the first thing is if we're talking about kind of slightly older students, I'll talk about younger, like I think the privatisation and marketisation of schools has been an absolute disaster for all the reasons that we're just talking about rather than decisions being made for the good of the children in the community that are made for what is the profit margin here.

33:21So I think that's one disaster. I think the pressure that teachers are put under largely as a consequence of austerity so we're shutting down of youth centres, we're shutting down of services for people to learn about sexual health or about drugs or about crime, so that's then all put on the teachers again I think is pretty disastrous and then I think there's the wider culture of Ofsted, so this idea that you have these obsessive targets and so then education becomes less about learning and enriching yourself or the community and becomes actually what hoops do you need to jump through or what bars do you need to go under to just hit this narrow criteria, which is a very specific way of measuring enrichment and mental health and well-being as opposed to education.

34:01Lots of other things too, but I guess those are kind of the top line things. And a lot of those things come, to be honest, from talking to teachers and educators, but also young people in the system who go, this just isn't working. Yeah, I agree. I think my views are maybe slightly more radical. Okay, no, no, let's go for it. It's called bold politics, let's be bold. Yes, okay, I'll be bold. Well, I don't know, man, I just look, I think school as it is was invented a very long time ago. Right. It was a very long, and it feels like it is an attempt to create a sense of uniformity and obedience from an early age at the expense of, like I say like the spirit and joy of us at our most I can say malleable I understand school can serve people who perhaps didn't know what they're interested in and then they can find school or they can utilize school to alleviate themselves of the current maybe class they're in or uh you know there's you can get always get head down on work that's a way to progress through society um but all the issues I see coming up are to do with the fact that we're trying to fit you know all of these varied people varying mental states mental desires uh like literally neurological like um like makeup we're trying to fit them all into these boxes and then are confused why people are distracting other kids or you know i just heard something on the radio on the way here about kids being put into isolation too often and they're not benefiting them and i you know i've read about a school in a book uh in in i think it's california which is arguably it's a privilege to be able to do this but it's a school with no lessons until you're 16 no lessons there's adult supervisors that are democratically elected which I find hilarious by the school and the teachers so if you don't like a teacher you can vote them out basically but like they all that happens is if a kid turns to an adult and says I want to learn about butterflies then they're like alright cool and then they go and teach them, they facilitate that desire to learn rather than force them to learn.

36:15I thought this at school. I've actually got notes of me saying this. I really think the kids, the troubled kids that everybody's given up on or end up in prison or whatever, if you gave them the autonomy to follow things that they want to do or are interested in, why would they cause a stir? Why is it so odd for us to be able to understand that kids like different things? Totally. And then on top of that, we have the emergence of AI. So in my head, when I'm talking about stuff like emotion, which people think is some abstract, luxurious thing for me to talk about. No, it's survival, man. Like, it's survival.

36:49This is going to be our ability to feel ourselves, our body, to understand when we feel connected, when we feel part of something greater. That's going to be what keeps us going. Because we have the answers in our pocket to these things, to these memory tests that we're in, you know. And you have children who are, you know, at the most energetic they'll ever be in their life, sat down for eight hours a day. I can't fathom it. Even big corporates have stand-up desks now, for example, as adults. Bean bags. This is the joke people make about these progressive companies who are making billions, if not trillions of pounds.

37:30All their employees are given freedom. Totally. So why are we treating kids like animals? Why are we treating animals like that as well? It's on the whole other thing. Well, it's definitely going to go there. Pick up the vegans. Yeah, shout out. You still, I don't want to erode your reputation, but I don't think what you're saying is radical, actually. I think it's completely common sense. Actually, one of my best friends, a guy called Ricky Beadle Blair, who's a creative in London who grew up in Bermondsey, and he often talks about how he grew up in what was called a free school, so it was exactly this.

37:56He said he'd turn up in the day, the teachers would go, what did you want to learn? It was full of art and creativity. We often talk about the importance of things like learning how to read, but not necessarily having to do that through a very formal, uniform structure, but actually that becomes the product of doing the things that you want to do. you find ways to weave those basic skills in. Yes, I agree. This is the thing, again, as an author, I hear a lot about the gender imbalance in reading. Women read a lot more than men, and bless boys, obviously with the allure of gaming and other things, they just don't like reading.

38:30But they will like reading if they find something that interests them. Men are typically drawn more to non-fiction. I'm very much on the side of wanting to encourage people that there's so much truth in fiction, an amazing amount. But I can understand why kids aren't bothered about books because the only context in which they're reading is in a high-pressured, judged, literally critiqued scenario. Some kids are made to read out in front of a class. Yeah, yeah, horrendous. Do you get what I'm saying? So it's like you're building up like a kind of early PTSD with books. Books are our way out. Yeah, there's a bill going through Parliament at the moment which is moving these things in the opposite direction actually.

39:13It's looking to clamp down on things like home education and people being able to have that space and have a more regulated curriculum. Yeah, I don't know. I don't want to get too conspiratorial. I mean this is obviously something that I hope you'll be across but that seems wild to me. The sheer fact, the fact that I've had to live through governments that have clamped down on the creative arts as a form of austerity. So you speak about youth clubs, of course, no brainer. Youth clubs get shut, knife crime increases, everyone moans about knife crime for me that's blatantly obvious kids need to be raised by a village like the people in my after school club were meant so much to me as a kid Brighton Youth Centre that's where I started writing music I wouldn't have done Rizzle Kicks if it wasn't for a youth centre do you get what I'm saying?

39:56that's why I'm a patron of Audioactive that's why I work with Arts Council Youth Music because I'm passionate about this but isn't it appalling that we're having to crowdfund money for these youth centres to be able to stay open and these people will go forth as if art aren't a massive part of these people's lives. I can't understand why they think that art isn't a luxury. Creativity isn't a luxury. It's a necessity. It creates stability, freedom, harmony. It brings people together. People are in strangers' form, in darkness to watch people on stage. It's such a unifying experience and all of these people listen to music.

40:33All of them have things hung up in their houses. They watch telly. like it's preposterous to me that the focus is on no but we we need all all children to focus on stem like okay i just don't you know there's there's a lineage of people who are more drawn to those kind of things and i love that i would love the kids who love science to be given full focus on science without having to be lumped in with kids who aren't interested in science maths english some people love writing and they go to it maybe we can focus on writing with no product maybe we can just tell kids to write and then burn what they've written and then they just wrote you don't have to be told it's good or not I don't know it's just that it's it's I'm with you entirely I'm someone who like my favorite thing to do is to learn that's why I love this podcast I love learning about new things and having ideas I absolutely hated school yeah I do have to say where head teacher of my old school wrote to me recently to say one they've been contacted by dozens and dozens of journalists who were trying to find bad stories about me and they said just like you know we're not commenting yeah and two I'd been rude about my school in public or not rude I'd just said that I'd hated it and they said I'm really sorry to hear that was your experience particularly I was homophobically bullied they were like would you like to come back to the school and come see what changes we've made etc and that was a really nice offer but if I go for the old historic school I go how badly did you have to get it wrong to take someone who loves learning who absolutely like it's my favourite thing to do is find a new subject yeah I hated every single day yeah bro that's what I'm trying to say when I was a kid I used to drag my mum to like exhibitions and museums I used to love I wanted to learn things I wanted to be like an archaeologist when I was a kid or something I mean, I just like digging and stuff.

42:05I could see. I was in like a back garden with a little thing like, what am I going to find? And then I remember going into school and just being hit with this hurricane of, oh, okay, so I have to memorize this. And if I don't memorize it correctly, I loved coursework. I loved coursework. It made sense to me. I was given a longer period of time. Obviously, I struggle with the deadlines. But yeah, look, it's not for everyone. It is for some people. I'm not trying to think that my outlook is gospel. But the reason why I guess we are unified in saying this is it's not like more and more children are enjoying school.

42:40It's not like we're getting feedback of like, oh, actually, everyone's really, everyone feels totally comfortable. You know, no one's having a really rubbish time. Or that school is working. All I hear, all I hear, I've been in a mental health conversation actually for almost 10 years now. Like I've started a campaign and you hear it. kids like debilitated with anxiety like like developing disorders and you know people might argue that we've given open the doors the kids saying they've got all these different things sure to an extent there'll be some kind but then also just the reality like yes you're putting young minds developing brains into incredibly dare I say abusive scenarios with no sufficient guidance or support the whole conversation on radio is that there's not enough funding for SEN end in these schools so if kids are struggling you don't even have the money to send them to somewhere where they're not they're just isolated so you have a kid of dyslexia can't read he's been embarrassed in class so he takes the mick gets sent out isolated are they going to advance in their life no it's interesting every time i talk about sun education no matter where i am i always get lots of emails from people going my son my kids or my cousins or my nephews like there are so many people with special needs in this country that aren't being served and are the opposite.

43:54They're being served really badly and being treated as a behavioural problem as opposed to being given the support and the empowerment that they need. Yeah, totally. I'm going to do some more work next year. I'm going to go into a few more schools to kind of get, like, you know, be on the ground a little more once I get some more time. It's odd because I'm actually going to circle back to the question you asked before in terms of it I think this is all part of the conversation around boys girls in seldom this growing kind of like uh tension is all around this we you know we're pushing we're not encouraging a sense of community we're not giving building a reward system in young people's brains that's around listening, engaging, and, you know, somewhere just to let loose.

44:41I don't know, man. I think it's all tied up in the same conversation. You know, how do we encourage community? How can we support that? And Satcha said there's no such thing as society, and then the Tories and now the Labour government just slash services, and then complain there's no integration. And you're like, how do you expect integration to happen if you've stopped places where people can gather together and actually meet or talk to each other? Or play together, or create together? This is the whole, yeah, man. I mean, look, this is, again, we probably have to do like a seven-hour podcast at some point, but yeah, look, this comes up all the time.

45:11Obviously, hot button topic is multiculturalism integration. It's, you know, I can already, you know, it's funny because on the kind of the right podcast that I watch, you know, one of the games is you can't show emotion, you can't feel, you know, one of the great ways in the alternative right-leaning space on YouTube is people have these poker faces and they just deliver what they say and that's the game. But I feel, I can feel, when I think about something like that, I can feel, I feel passionate, I genuinely feel emotional about my frustrations around that. Because I remember being a boy in London growing up and having absolutely, in my estate, there was, I can't remember a single kind of like race-based issue.

45:55I'm sure there were. Right. But it's just like, I didn't know any different. Sure. I had, you know, there were kids from, there's an Irish kid called Pat who was really good at football. I remember we obviously had like, there was a massive Hindu community because I remember loving Hinduism because of the gods. And Diwali was like my favorite. I didn't say, you know, I wasn't just because of the lights, you know, and we'd celebrate it in our school and whatever else. We also celebrated Christmas. I don't know why people think Christmas is getting shut down. I've celebrated it every year. Every year, everywhere.

46:23It's fine. Christmas is fine. you know and I'd meet people from all different walks of life you know Linda she was the mum on the bottom floor of my estate used to protect me you know you had like the Caribbeans you had Africans it was just like and then because all the kids of us were just playing outside together you never there was never this nothing no barriers were built up no I really remember that vividly that's why I feel passionate about it I remember vividly and it fucks me off when I hear people talking about London like they live here they don't live here like I know you don't live here because of how you're talking about it you know what I mean like it is and if you do you're on the outskirts or perhaps we can talk about that specific part of that specific place and we should discuss it with open minds like I'm down for that I don't think that like we are I don't think there's no issues in London right you know but the concept of like engaging with people who live a different life to you being like ridiculous is insane to me I went to Hansworth recently after Robert Jenrick kind of slagged the place off and Benjamin Zephyr about that poem.

47:24Just amazing, the sense of community. We obviously released that social media video. But what I was really pleased about is sometimes a video can be edited in a way that doesn't reflect the day. But actually that video really reflects the day. It was bright, it was warm, everyone on the street was hanging out, wanted to speak. It's not like the problem doesn't have deep issues with inequality and deprivation, absolutely does. But the issues were not issues of people that don't have white faces. They were there and like in with the community. And yeah, it was a beautiful, beautiful afternoon. Look, it's, yeah, I mean, we, you know, that's another thing I would love to advocate for.

47:57If we were going to be taught histories in schools, I mean, this is something I've spoken publicly about before, too. It would be fantastic if we were given like a very matter of fact account of the development of Britain without any, leaving out anything, just being clear about it. No moral agenda. No, I'm not trying to radicalise. I'm not trying to be anti-national. Just the truth. just the truth just explain why it is that there is a bunch of people here that live totally different lives to you what you know capital cities generally are multicultural because of you know the cost of labour who does certain jobs I really don't believe it's a conversation that should be aimed at the people with no power and this is the other thing about like why I'm really with you on I mean the irony I was watching the other day the irony with something like wealth tax is that like people in London have already been taxed because of inflation.

48:52I mean, I'm sure this is something you've spoken about, which is funny because you get people who I think have identified with the system that's hurting them. And they're like, people have worked hard for their money, they're entitled to their money, don't you punish them for their money. And I'm going, yeah, but... Your food prices are going up. Yeah, but your money in the back... I mean, like, if everything's inflated by, I don't know, 5%, 10%, whatever, and the wage brackets for taxation haven't shifted with the inflation, then that's again taking money from yeah it's called the drag you get dragged into the next yeah yeah so it's like it is literally one of the most pressing issues and then it all all this conversation waters down into the same thing because I agree with you if we had to go back to where we started with this conversation and talk about taking a village to raise children then yeah another issue is overworked parents having to having to sacrifice the actual presence in order to provide what's the lasting effects of that it's a generation of of children who are raised with an avoidant mindset and then struggle to get into, I'd say, healthy relationships, people might think that's abstract.

49:56I think that's really important. I think it's so well put. But, OK, I want to ask you a couple of things before I go. Firstly, and I want to praise you, I love the decriminalisation of drugs as a policy. I know it's been a policy for a long time. Yeah, legalise and regulate. Sorry, legalise and regulate. Oh, OK, legalise and regulate. That's even further. Even further, yeah. So decriminalise is where you just don't put people in prison, but legalise and regulate is saying, actually, this should be on the mark. So decriminalise is like Portugal. This is going to go a step further. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

50:20And, okay, great. Great, because I really believe in the regulation. I'm a big fan of David Knott. And sometimes in Portugal, people use that. So Carol Malone from The Express the other day was shouting at me about Portugal. But actually, the problem in Portugal was that they decriminalised and they didn't legalise and regulate. So that means you're not putting someone in prison, great, but there's no support afterwards. Yes, yes. And actually, the regulation is to say that some drugs are dangerous. And actually, that definitely doesn't mean we should be stigmatising people or putting them in prison.

50:46but it does mean people should be able to get the support that they need. 100%. And also it's like, again, like I said, I'm a big fan of David Nutt and there's papers and papers of evidence to support the fact that all of these dangers, the dangers of drugs that are shown to us, like so much of that is involved in them not being regulated. 100%. Cowboys making drugs in their basement or people sharing syringes or whatever that it is, you know, it seems like such a logical, outcome to be able to you know help people deal with that um crisis that they're in we're always learning as we go but what i've really learned on the drugs conversation is that we are coming from a safety point of view as in very often it gets pointed as a radical left kind of view and i go actually no i just want people to be safe there also in their communities yeah and alcohol is the worst right it really is the worst like i don't i don't think anybody should feel ashamed of drinking i don't want people to feel judged or panicked or whatever else you know i'm eight years sober and I know that the journey comes to people at different times but like dude it's indisputable people get drunk and kill other people they drive and kill other people like 50 % of all domestic abuse is alcohol related it's just wild to be having a conversation about what and yet mushrooms and weed, I mean weed is now medicinal I guess to an extent but you know there's nothing, nowhere near the level of statistics to support the idea that these should be putting people in prison.

52:13100%. And then the racial injustice as well. There's no disparity between white people who take drugs and black people who take drugs. But when you look at stop and search, young black men are like eight times more likely to be stopped and searched for cannabis. And also, what pains me is I'm very happy that cannabis has been, is now, has a medicinal root and can be prescribed. Love that. What are we going to do about the boys and men who are in prison then? Yeah, for sure. For selling the weed. That's mad to me. What, do they get to come out now? Do they have to call themselves a doctor? Do they get to come out?

52:44Like it's, you know, it's so contorted because these people like the woman you mentioned will come on and talk about, I even remember Theresa May when we were first looking at cannabis being made medicinal because the mother of a child with epilepsy refused to not give it to her child because it helped him. That was where the initial conversation came up and she had some mad quote about a boy who used to smoke weed and ended up becoming a heroin addict. It was just a completely disconnected, talking point about it. Meanwhile, what is considered prescribed, again, still fits the bill. I have ADHD, right?

53:19I can get prescribed concerta, which is methylphenidate, which is meth. It's meth, they say it's without the addictive component. You crush that up and put it in a bag, you get arrested. So it's just, again, total double standards. Definitely. I want to shout out an organisation called Anyone's Child, who have lost children or grandchildren or siblings for war on drugs and they're saying you need to legalise and regulate I thought you speak about this yeah yeah I definitely want to do an episode about it at some point you should alright so that's one thing I want to look at and I love that I support you on that and another one I just love you listing things you support me on yeah I'm joking no no totally ok so the last one I don't know if anyone spoke to you about this what do you think about sex work I'm very pro people who want to be sex workers who want to make that choice I think there's obviously an element of sex work that's exploitative yeah And that's completely unacceptable, but that's unacceptable in any form of work.

54:10So I don't think that's unique to sex work. I think there's another thing as well about making sure that we're keeping, obviously it's not just women and girls, it's also men too, but all sex workers safe in their places of work. And I think you can't do that when, again, you're looking to create a criminal justice system, either for the worker themselves or even for the person who's looking for the worker, because then that still creates loopholes and areas where people are having to do things in secret. whereas if it's entirely consensual then let people get on with it. Yeah, and able to be regulated.

54:41Right, exactly. It's the protection element of it. Again, odd. The only reason I mention that is because obviously this has been modelled in Holland. Yes. I think it's alright, isn't it? I think at one point they had the lowest teen pregnancy rate in Europe. For sure. It's funny that, isn't it? That's why I feel like my general approach, again, I'm learning a lot, I've still got a lot to learn but my general belief is that being the more liberal, the more free, I think potentially, the more benefit to society. I haven't yet seen an example of when that has been damaging. The only thing I can see that is damaging is restriction and suppression.

55:25And I don't believe that all, not in a political sense, but all conservative ideas are rubbish. I definitely believe in boundaries. I believe in... I do believe there's a certain element of individual self-care that we are responsible for. I totally get that. That's a big part of being balanced. But as a general metric and system in which to run and rule people, I don't know. I think historically it hasn't had great results. Yeah, I agree. Every single comment underneath this podcast is going to say a version of, why is Jordan not an MP? No way! but I'm not sure I could do that man really? yeah so how like so how does you I guess it brings you joy being part of being doing this I'm going to put a small caveat in which is going to sound very odd for someone who leads a political party but before I was a politician I was a community theatre actor so I was working in groups in community halls particularly around scenes of oppression helping people fight it and to be honest I was never happier doing that job than anything I've ever done and on my worst days before I was leader of a party you kind of do politics and you just hit a brick wall and you're just like I was changing so much more when I was working creatively telling stories, helping people tell their own stories and that really felt like it was changing things that all being said though I think we're in a moment in politics where when you can fuel the creativity of storytelling and align that with people finding their own agency and empowerment particularly through creativity so absolutely everything you were saying earlier I think where art and music can help people find different expressions that aren't in the very kind of staid, uniform way that our whole society has been, but particularly politics, that says unless you're having this specific conversation in this specific way, you're not a politician or you're not doing politics.

57:09I think that's been so corrosive to the entire system. But I think we're in a moment now where people are looking for things that are new, that are authentic. And I think if you wanted to do that, you would embody it. I can also see why you might not want to do that and go, I'm really happy doing everything. You're still talking about me being an MP. I'm talking about you being an MP. Listen, all I can say, Zach, is you have engaged me more with politics. Like in the last month, because I was aware of you, actually it was Michaela who made me aware of you, Michaela Loach, who you've just seen on this.

57:41And last week. And, you know, I've always said, listen, I spent my teen years in Brighton, so, you know, I probably have a slight more awareness of the Green Party, obviously, that was their seat. Caroline Lucas is a G. But, you know, I felt a lot of political apathy for a long time because it felt like, you know, different badges, different colours, same vibe, roughly the same outcome, especially in my lifetime. I mean, I'm a millennial. So yeah, I kind of was coming into my brain was developing during us protesting the war, you know, that was like one of my I can remember that vividly a million people saying, let's not go to war.

58:19And then we went to an illegal war. So I was like, Oh, okay, so politics, politicians don't listen to people that's interesting you know because that was like overwhelming um so yeah so i had this political apathy but then i really started to feel this this you know duty of resistance i think and seeing that like how easily misled in my opinion for the for their own well being people have been by people who just shout loudly you've come out at such an important time and so now i'm engaged so i don't know about an mp bro but listen i'm i'm as it stands i think what you're doing with the Greens is brilliant and it's necessary and I think a lot of people are excited now and I think more power to you really, I think can you, you know, what's the drive for you do you feel good, do you feel like you can do this you seem to have currently, every challenge you've come across, when you've been presented with somebody trying to take you down or bring up some ridiculous thing from your past you've just managed to confront it do you feel strengthened by what you've experienced so far?

59:22Yeah undoubtedly I guess the thing I push back is I think we can do this. And I mean me and you, but I mean everyone. I think it's about recognizing it's, I'm the one with the microphone a lot of the time, but actually where I'm getting that strength and energy from is the communities that are visiting, who are saying constantly that we're feeling hope for the first time and reflecting back that actually they are that hope. Like they're that hope every day when they get up and just do, whether it's one thing for their community or spend their entire lives serving their community. I think when we recognize we are so much more powerful, when we all recognize our own agency, than the system that has kept that crushed for so long.

59:54And yes, that will be a huge fight because changing the status quo when it wants to protect its power and its wealth will always fight back. But I really feel like they're losing. I hope so. This is the importance of you, Gary. You know, like there is a language that a lot of people speak again, you know, money, logic, outcome. And he crosses over all of that against someone who's lived it, experienced it, being in literally the belly of the beast and come out and been like, guys, they're fucking you over, you know? And it breaks my heart that a proportion of these people can be led so easily astray, perhaps by, like, an immediate allure of nationalism, which is, like, again, totally understand people's desire to identify and find, in a way, a sense of community.

1:00:38But, like, it's just, as you talk a lot about, and I read a lot about, I cannot stress enough how many rugs are being pulled from underneath people's feet whilst they divert their attention towards the most powerless people in society. It is out of this world. I don't even like economics that much, and I've had to get engaged with it. And when I'm seeing the amount of banks or huge corporations that are buying streets, streets worth of houses, you know what I mean? I went to Italy earlier in the year, and I took a two and a half hour train. It cost me eight euros. And that's a choice anyone could make.

1:01:17We've made different choices. Yeah, you know, that's eight euros. And I'm thinking, oh, so what, are they subsidizing their own trains on our... I don't know. I don't know. I can't make accusations. But, you know, this is what happens, you know. And yes, I'd be pissed off if it cost me 200 pounds to go to Manchester or wherever it is, you know. So, but this is all because of things that I believe you want to challenge, shift, change. And wouldn't it be lovely if people who had all this accumulated wealth actually wanted to serve their community and saw it? I mean, it benefits them. You make that point.

1:01:46I loved it when you made that point. it's not beneficial to them totally you've really helped me with something as well this is like a therapy session at this point the same thing I was on that march too for Iraq and I was totally non-party political like I just wasn't interested in politics but that was one thing that really cut through where you were going you don't have to understand a lot to know that this is wrong so I went and marched nothing happened I mean everything happened but nothing happened in terms of what we were marching on and then I wasn't involved with politics for about 10 years after that maybe 15 years after that It was heartbreaking.

1:02:17And I don't think I'd ever realised that actually, like, I think there was something quite traumatic about you're told if you march and if you're told that the power of the people, you will get change. Yes. But I think what I didn't recognise back then, which I see very clearly now, is the power of vested interests. Yeah. But they're only as powerful as they can be when they don't have transparency or accountability. And I think what's changing is people's awareness of how much we're being distracted and how much actually we need to go after that 1%. Yes, 100%. is I really believe that and it will bring back, I really believe it will bring back the, like an integral part of community that is getting lost and we're getting drawn away by this constant fear and alert that's coming onto our phones and our screens and it's okay to go outside and walk about and I want to start my own youth club, I want to do my own space where I can bring people into those conversations on a local level.

1:03:10you know we're allowed to care about stuff that's happening on a local level you know there's not always this extreme but just to emphasize this as well you know about a million people on that on that much it wasn't we see all these pictures now because again we've got our phones and we're all comparing how many people were on marches there's unprecedented the iraq anti-war march like and there was not really that many records because not everyone was putting on their on their social media but it was like you know it was a i can totally understand why you'd feel that too because it was really like oh like it's very clear where we stand on this and yet you know like the kind of long-time interest of a couple of powerhouses and you know coincidentally where some oil is and and then here we are you know but um anyway jordan i loved you growing up as a musician really yeah when i was a young person as you were young people too we were young people yeah and now i love you as a person too so this is i really really enjoyed i love everything you're doing boss thank you good luck join the greens hey like everyone else sorry

1:04:15hello zach now listen i've had a text i know improbable but true from the beavers the butterflies the beetles and the badgers it's all sending you big love for signing up they're hoping that your listeners are going to do the same by visiting ecotalk.co.uk.