Hope Is Here, It's All Of Us

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1:16Visit growtherapy.com slash start now to get started. That's growtherapy.com slash start now growtherapy.com slash start now availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan. So sometimes on this podcast, our podcast guests have difficulty and that's happening today. We don't have a podcast guest or do we?

1:48so ross you're the producer of politics yeah i found myself roped into the studio on the other side of the microphone for a change and i was gonna say you're not someone who loves to be in front of cameras right uh yeah i definitely find it quite uh anxiety inducing so i think we should start with how we've met because we've not known each other that long but um about uh eight months ago i think i just launched my leadership campaign and i got a dm direct message on instagram i have to say there's no way of saying sounding this without sounding arrogant so i'm just going to say it i get a lot of dms from a lot of people i don't know offering me a lot of things um but yours was particularly phrased in a way that kind of grabbed my attention.

2:35I can't remember the story but I think I might have even said no the first time and then you might have gone with another message. There was definitely hesitance there and yeah I think a lot of people don't know this like even in my personal life when I talk about working with you it's like oh like how long have you known Zach and we hadn't ever met before the podcast came about. I mean there's two levels to it I think the first one is that I saw you well I I heard you on a very long commute home back to where I live and I heard you on a podcast and it was just immediately like oh there's somebody who's genuinely answering a question and I hadn't really heard a politician do that before and I think that's a really strange that's a really strange phenomenon I think that going back I wish I could experience that again I wish I could hear you speak for the first time again because it is like such a wonderful moment.

3:29And making the podcast, I've got to experience that so many times through other people as well. Lots of people are still hearing you for the first time and going, oh, that's a politician actually answering a question. And the bar is so low. Like it shouldn't be that way. As I said, happy back. Before I take the compliment too much, the bar is really low, Zach. It is. You're just not really shit. Yeah, well, that's kind of it. It's like, there's so much deflection in politics. So, you know, I was on my way home on this very long commute back to my one-year-old and my few months old baby. Just not feeling hope at all and listening to you on that podcast.

4:18I can't even remember what you were talking about. Do you know what made you switch that on, though? because I always think about people who have never engaged with the Green Party before. What's the first time that they're like, oh, I'm going to listen to a Green Party politician? Or is it that you liked the podcast? For a long time, I've been very interested in economics and just capitalism in general. And Grace Blakely was talking about you quite a lot. So I think it was Grace Blakely that I was like, oh, she's talking about this politician. And she's talking about it with such conviction. Like, this guy is really good.

4:51I think that was quite inspiring to me because for so long we'd all just felt so dejected that there wasn't a politician that had our backs. So for Grace to be like, we should all get behind this guy. I was like, OK, go on then. We'll check him out. I love it. I mean, I loved Grace anyway, but I didn't know that she played such a pivotal role in bold politics. That's really cool. Yeah, and I'm glad we've had her on as a guest. Yeah, I don't know if she knows that though, how pivotal she was. I don't think I've told her either. Well, hopefully she knows now. Yeah. So I listened to you and I felt that hope and I went home and basically just wrote a direct message to you.

5:27But it was also an idea that I'd had for a long time. I'd been making podcasts for a long time and I know that it's like the most engaged media. When people tune in, it's part of their habit. they listen on a commute, they're really like building that trust with the host, whatever you're listening to. If you listen to the same thing every week, I spoke to someone yesterday who said, I like, I hear conversations with my favorite podcast hosts more than I hear conversations with my friends. And you can imagine the sort of trust that builds between a host and an audience I'm like surely if politicians want to get to know the electorate or want the electorate to get to know them this is a perfect medium for it and I totally appreciate that it takes time and we've worked out a way to do this and make it the most time efficient thing possible that was code for Ross makes me film six episodes in a row so I sit in this room for sometimes six seven hours and I love it Yeah, and I completely get that aspect of it, but there is a way to do production that makes it really...

6:37And, like, obviously, you are the Duracell bunny in terms of being able to just turn up, and you get refreshed by talking about different things. Definitely. So when we have someone talking about the health service, you'll get energised from that, and then you'll go on and talk about housing, and then you'll talk about inequality, and each time, it's like a new experience for you. I just see you get charged and charged and charged, and by the end of the day, I'm completely cooked, and you're like right I'm off to go do news night or whatever where does the energy come from but like you are literally fuelled by those kinds of conversations whether it's with you know one of the hosts of Loose Women or with someone who has got like a very human story like you just you are energised by that I think that's it perpetuates it's like the podcast it's fed by your energy and I think the thing you were really right about and I'll come back to what I mean by that is the amount of people who stop me in the street who start talking to me like we're already midway in a conversation and I think it's because they've been listening to a podcast or they're used to kind of a dialogue we're having and I think it's called parasocial relationship I love that but I think your message basically said have you thought about launching a podcast and this story would be easy for me to go I saw that brilliance straight away but I think I actually said to you no I'm running to be leader of a party and I think I'm about to be leader of a party the idea of doing a podcast at the same time seems completely unmanageable and you just made the kind of steps towards it and the reasons for it so compellingly it's important to say here too it's not that you had no experience either you'd worked on the rest of politics you'd worked with robert peston and i suppose i was interested too and it's my question for you now and someone who i saw as like working in very centrist spaces going i want to work with a politician who's very explicitly left-wing?

8:25My politics are left-wing. The reason that I worked on those shows was because they're massive and I think it was also a different time in politics. There wasn't really anywhere to look in terms of hope. There was no one saying we want to put workers rights first above big business. Well there were people saying that it was the Labour party and they didn't do it um so i think you can do a job that like like i'm really passionate about the medium i'm really passionate about storytelling and you also need to know how other people are operating just because my politics weren't directly being spoken about in these shows they also weren't a politics of hate like i would never have let something editorially through that was like actively you know derogatory towards the community or or anything like that but you know we would have a lot of like labor politicians coming on and talk about uh you know their plans to improve whatever but those things never manifested because they were always watered down by big business so when i'm in that space like you have enough of these conversations with these politicians who at the beginning are quite convincing but as you go on and on.

9:44And like one of the things that I really liked about Labour, they were talking about this kind of work from home policy as part of the Make Work Pay bill, the workers rights bill that Angela Rayner put together. And one of the amazing things for me in that bill would be the right to work from home. Right. And like that would have given me like the ability to see my kids, like the amount of bedtimes I missed because I was in the office. I'm like, that's a policy that I can get behind. the problem is it never manifests and I think so that is the next thing so then you laid out to me perfectly what a podcast could do and it made absolute sense to me so we went for a Wagamamas in Westfield which is hilarious because Westfield's probably the last place either of us would go I was so hesitant about where to meet the potential leader of the Green Party I was like what's the most vegan community led space I can find and we landed on Wagamamas in Westfield.

10:44I think so often it was just like wherever I was that day I probably was doing some community event in Stratford. No bless you, you cycled over to me because that was where my train came in. Oh okay that does make sense. Like that's you, like no other politician would have even remotely entertained that. It would have been like I'm here, meet me. Also I do love a Wagamama speaker. And instantly, I don't think I've told you this, but within a minute I was like okay there's something here and I think it was you were really honest straight away that you weren't that into the Green Party and I think it's fair to say you are into the Green Party now but at that time I think you were basically like I don't want my children to grow up in a country when Nigel Farage is Prime Minister and I think that's the path we're on and I think you're my best shot at stopping that and I just love the way you presented it not as a business opportunity not as something that would further my career necessarily although I think it has done that but actually just purely as there's something in the country I need to stop right now and I think you're the person who can do that so I'm going to do anything I have in my power to make you do it yeah totally and I think so those are the two that's the kind of two levels to why I wanted to to pitch this to you like firstly it was like why doesn't a politician have their own podcast like this is the way to speak to people this is the way to align yourself with the people you want to be seen with.

12:04This is the way to reach the masses every single week with good messages. And the format of the podcast has changed over time. We've made it less divisive. People really love how inclusive it feels. We have people on that challenge you and ask you questions and that don't vote for the Green Party. But on the whole, it's a very respectful space. We didn't plan for that at the beginning. And I think that's one of the ways that it's evolved really wonderfully. And when you say mass, we should say we're getting over a million listens a month. And so that's the kind of professional level of it. And then the personal aspect of it is that like that dejection in politics, that lack of hope that was there for so long was just wearing away at me.

12:54and like I always wanted to be a dad and I think having kids really tapped into the fact that there was no hope for their future and that made me feel like a failure that made me feel really sad because I was like the way that politics is now the way that we're moving as a country I just don't want my kids to grow up in that space I just I want them to grow up in a space where they can feel accepted, where they have access to human rights, where they have opportunity and community spaces and all of the things that we've just seen stripped away over the last 10, 20, 30 years. And this felt like an opportunity to at least move in the direction.

13:43This podcast could have been a total flop. Like nobody, like, it was a gamble for both of us. you put out a podcast and it flops the day after you've just won an 85 % mandate in the leadership election and then you get an absolutely pants podcast that goes out that nobody listens to like that's that's a huge risk for you well the times didn't give us two stars they gave us two stars what did they say it was um nauseating left-wing populism love that so much i immediately screenshot it and put it on the header of our youtube page but actually that review really informed my leadership i shouldn't give the times that much credit but there was something that they wrote in it which i just thought oh wow we're just living in different paradigms which is they said that i wasn't a leader because i was sat there listening to ash sarkar who was our first guest that we put out i think um i think zeri gardner was the first guest we recorded with but we were like we're going to swap them around and they said that i wasn't a leader because i was just sat there listening to her and not talking enough and i was just like wait that's literally what my model of leadership is like to listen to smart people with expertise and thoughts that might not be the exact same but have different perspectives and take what I agree with, reject what I disagree with and kind of also amplify people and just reading that Times review I was like ah okay they're not used to this model of leadership or this way of doing politics.

14:58Yeah I think when we first stepped into the studio I was really like pleasantly surprised with how you engaged in the conversation because we didn't do any pilots. We just jumped straight in, managed to blag some of the best experts in politics onto the podcast. I was just really pleasantly surprised to see you having a conversation and genuinely just treating these moments as like briefings with people that you would want to meet anyway. But sharing that information and sharing that perspective with the audience. And that's a really powerful thing because one, it's you being vulnerable. because we don't see politicians be vulnerable ever.

15:41And then two, it's really reinforced to me that we have put great orators, there's so many great orators out there, people who can speak really clearly and we seem to put them into positions of power, but we don't put great communicators into positions of power often. And a great communicator is a two-way thing and equally with a podcast it's a two-way thing nobody wants to listen to a you know uh just soliloquy for i mean some people might want to listen to that i mean it does happen on lbc yeah but i think a lot of the best podcasts the most successful podcasts are they just feel like a conversation so the listeners in a place where it's like slightly inconvenient like a commute or maybe they don't enjoy cooking and they've got to make dinner for their families and they pop on a podcast and it's people who have really good chemistry and that brings them into that room and creates a conversation they feel like they're part of they're not actively engaged in it but in their head they're probably replying to some of the points that are being made and that's what really makes a good podcast and it's also what really makes a good politician and a good leader I should say it's that two way street and we need people not in positions of power but in positions of representation and you can only represent your community if you're listening to them so you showing that you're listening on a podcast the times coming out and saying like this is one of the wild things that they said in the article as well they said show us your balls they said that in the article I think I only skim read it I was like why are they asking what that's a different kind of podcast but like they wanted this like brash outlandish you to come out swinging it's this this and this and actually you came in with this like we created this beautiful space where you're having conversations well I was going to say that's two things that you've done that like within that first month which I absolutely loved so one I think when we first met you said you were going to write scripts for me and as someone who's really busy I was really appreciative of that but in the first podcast what I found was I think I probably read the first question you'd suggested and then just got lost in the conversation and then afterwards thought you were going to be bothered by that as a producer but you were like no no that's fine you don't need to look at my questions and then the second podcast I didn't look at your questions and by the third podcast you just didn't write any questions or script anymore you were totally fine with that and that's how we always do the podcast is I just have the person in front of me go what do I want to ask and then just genuinely have a conversation but the control you relinquish to do that I mean it makes sense it's my conversation but I don't think there'll be many producers who would trust a politician to go, I trust them to make a good podcast and I'm just going to focus on the technicals and the edit, which is amazing.

18:33Yeah, you're listening with lots of different ears when you're making a podcast because there's part of it where you're just making sure that nothing goes wrong. And then a lot of the time, it's not until the edit that I'm really thinking about how to turn it into a story. And actually, you're such a natural speaker and conversationalist that a lot of it just, there's not really any editing involved. I should say, though, I'm in danger of taking away how much you do do. There's plenty of times where I go down side quests or things go out of date more often, and you manage to put the conversation together and make it flow.

19:02Yeah, I also think that is like relinquishing. It's like any decision. Not doing something is still a decision. So relinquishing control is still an active choice in the production process. So allowing you to be comfortable and do it in the way that you want to do is going to create a more authentic conversation so that that person cooking their dinner is going to feel like it's a real-life interaction. And that's what you want to do. And when I work with anyone, I'll always want them to either know a lot about the subject they're talking about, have researched it themselves, or come with a genuine curiosity.

19:38And those things are authentic feelings. Yeah, totally. And that's what you want to capture. if I write you an eight page document that you sort of skim read and you're looking through your notes while you're speaking it's never gonna it's never gonna like sound great is it? For sure and then the second thing you did was the kind of initial agreement although it wasn't you know a locked in agreement was that we were gonna have some right wingers on some pretty awful people I think you suggested though I was just like I don't want to talk to that person and you were just a bit like well let's start with some you know easy conversations and we'll get there and by a month in I think both of those were just like actually people are really enjoying the fact that we're not just shouting at each other and we're not just arguing people are really enjoying the depth and nuanced conversations that don't necessarily happen with someone you disagree with because you're both just trying to win the discussion and as you said that doesn't mean that people come on who I always agree with or they always agree with me but we've deliberately not gone for what could have probably got easier and quicker clicks which is just me disagreeing with people and not having arguments or winning over people or vice versa and I was just really pleased when you were just like yeah we don't need to do that we have something that's really successful that people are really enjoying and if people want to see me with argue with people there's a million other places they can go do that like i'm doing it every day but actually in this room in these four walls it's about like complexity and nuance and sensitivity yeah and i think you also took to that really well it's something like most of the stuff on the podcast just happened really naturally and it just created itself in a lot of ways it was like the void in politics that needed to be filled which was a politician listening to people and you just saw it in all the comments like I was I love I literally read every single comment on the podcast I love reading the podcast and and even when that is constructive even when they're like dunking on me because my thumbnails aren't good enough like I'll go away and learn how to do it better yeah they have got better um and you know we we've always taken the feedback on board but like one of the top things that we saw was that people were really commenting about how much they loved seeing you listen and we actually put up a put up a clip of sean fey and you didn't speak in it at all right and everyone was just like when was the last time that you just saw someone hand over the mic and let the other person speak without without commenting without without challenging it like it's just it was i didn't even put the question in there it was just sean fey like just dropping absolute bars That's amazing, amazing.

22:07That's a great episode. Yeah, and I think that's the sort of disjoint between what The Times were saying, we want to see Zach Polanski come out swinging, versus what people wanted, which was to see their politicians listening, to see their politicians learning. It's like Einstein's metric of intelligence is changing your views on things, based on new information, if you're provided with a more reliable source. People want to see politicians go, look, I don't know everything. I'm always learning, and I want to learn as well. There should be that action involved in a desire to learn. But far too often, we see politicians who we know have no experience in that space talking with absolute clarity, and then in six weeks it turns out they're completely wrong yeah and i hear about labor a lot when there's these u-turns and people go fair play to labor like they got they got it wrong but they were they they they've they've admitted they got it wrong and they've changed the policy or they've or they've they've gone back and like why do we why do we talk about u-turns as a bad thing And it's like, because you shouldn't wait to be called out.

23:34Like it shouldn't get to the point where you have to U-turn. Like politicians should be constantly learning all the time and listening, not only going, look, I'm always learning, when they've been called out by the press and the pressure's like pushing down on them. I know people have really enjoyed, I think Zeri Gardner is an obvious example of this, where I've taken the briefing, which is a podcast, and then they've seen me a few days later be on TV and repeat something that they've heard me learn in real time. and that's I mean it's fun in terms of they're really serious issues but I think it's fun for people to hear the kind of briefing you've had and how you've taken that yeah and one of the most beautiful things actually and I've never told you this was that um after we got noodles like I just said a few things to you um and you've done this on the podcast a few times as well like I'll tell you about my day an interaction with my kids a problem with my child care uh I'll say I'm interested in this guest because of xyz and you'll you'll then bring that up on the podcast and be like oh i i've heard this and like it really gives me a sense of like my my voice matters and like when people talk to you you actually take it on board and you actually like platform other people's issues whenever you get the opportunity like it's not coming from some agency some think tank it's like you'll listen to people and then you will bring it up on like some of the most watched television shows you know or the most listened to podcasts and that's a personal experience but i know other people have experienced that too so i've got three i think favorite moments from working with you all times we've worked together one is when we had doris in from united voices of the world it was just amazing and i think we want to do that kind of thing again for sure which is for those who haven't seen the episode go back and check it but doris is a hotel supervisor who was part of the first women who went on strike and won their case and we made a very deliberate decision to we've loved the celebrities that have come on and we've loved the experts to come on but actually to have an expert in their own lived experience of how they work the second which is the opposite of that was having gary lineker on for the christmas episode was just epic he's a dude anyway but it just felt like we've hit whatever podcast wanted to get to that we've got someone with gary's platform on having a genuinely interesting conversation and challenging me as well that same day we had a guardian journalist simon hattonstone as well in the foyer who was interviewing me and interviewing Gary and watching the podcast and I think we had like a by-election coming up in like a few days at local I just felt like everything was coming together and it was a little bit too much but also we were all just holding it and it was working really really well I should say obviously as well as working with you on the podcast a huge shout out to all the Green Party team who I work with regularly in my leadership role who do phenomenal work but my single biggest kind of memory view is actually being in Calais where we went to Calais to meet people who were on the move and we were there for a couple of days.

26:24It was just a very intense experience. Aside from that though, I think it was around about that time too that you told me you were going to quit your job and do the podcast or do working for Bold Politics as a brand full time. And me being really worried about that and you just saying with absolute certainty, this is what I want to do. This is what I want to do for my kids' futures. And I think you said to me respectfully, actually it wasn't about me at all or what I wanted. it was about you recognising what this could and needed to be and you just putting full faith and confidence in this project.

26:54Yeah, no, totally. And I think back to that period when I was working my other job, a full-time job, doing this, which is a full-time job as well, and still being a present dad to my kids, like just not knowing where I found the time. But it was, I feel like when you're working towards something that you actually just, I see people every day who talk about you and talk about you with such positivity and such hope that it's it's like that thing where you're having the conversations that gives you energy like that's what gives me energy like being able to put that message out there to as many people as possible um and provide a sense that it doesn't have to be this way like on mass but also like the like for instance going meeting doris or going to calais and speaking to people who are living in the most destitute conditions and having those conversations like those are perspectives that i never would have been able to have in any other sort of plot in my life like there's no way that i would be exposed to to those kinds of people um and i think that's a really powerful thing like that's like seeing the world and learning from other people's experiences it shapes your politics and I think so much of our policymakers and our leaders haven't haven't done those things they haven't spoken to those people and I just feel really like blessed that working with you has provided the opportunity to meet those people and and learn from them and see firsthand the the hardships that people are facing because we see firsthand every single day how much they're demonized.

28:41We don't actually hear from them. And that's why they're scapegoated because they don't get to have a platform. They don't get to have their voice amplified. So I think one of the things we really wanted to do on the podcast, kind of from the start, I always had this kind of two-stage strategy. And this is very inside of football. But I always wanted to sort of, no disrespect to any of the guests that we've had, but I always wanted to get guests with big platforms on the show. People that I wanted to meet anyway, and I know you wanted to meet and have briefings from, but it was always important to me that we highlighted the stories of everyday people as well.

29:23And I think we have been able to do that once we built the platform up. We can then have those episodes where, you know, the algorithm might not favor it, but it's the right thing to do. we have a platform and we should be using it to talk about those things and I also love that you then developed your skills as well to get involved with things outside the podcast so you were there at the Christmas fundraiser where I was dressed as Charles Dickens which also was one of my favorite days working with you oh I'm that was so fun and like such a brilliant challenge as well because it was just like oh we need to we need to make a video and I you know I'd not really written a script ever before and then suddenly I'm writing the script to dress up the leader of a political party like in Dickensian Attire.

30:06And it goes on to raise hundreds of thousands of pounds. And I'd never made anything like that. And I wrote, directed and produced it. And it was just such an amazing experience. And having done some of the party political broadcasts now as well, and they're going on BBC One and ITV and Prime Slots. And I just feel so grateful to have had those opportunities. And the live shows as well. The live shows have been great. How amazing is it when we do the live shows? Because you can get a million plays or get a million followers. It's still just a number on a screen. It's still just pixels. But when you go and you see people who actively...

30:44The producer has not turned his phone off. It's hilarious. But when you go and you meet these people and they're there and they're fans of the show, that's such a beautiful thing. And even though they don't know who I am, no one talks to me about it and I love seeing them sit there having bought a ticket and watch this show and in real life like that's such a you obviously experience that on such a bigger level no it's the same thing though and it's lovely and the people we work with so like in my fundraiser Cody and Amanda who were the other actors in it I'm trying to remember who filmed it was it Sam Nicklin?

31:25we had Matt O 'Brien filming it And Matt O 'Brien, who filmed it, Jeremy Clancy, who did the running video. We're working with these amazing creatives. And the fact also how passionate you are about expanding the pool of creatives we work with, and particularly at the local level as well. So we're using people from the local community. We're getting on to, I've really enjoyed this conversation, but actually there's a hidden agenda behind this conversation, too, which is from the moment I kind of became leader of the Green Party and we launched this podcast, I think I counted it to like 12 or 13 book publishers kept asking me if I wanted to write a book.

31:57and almost in parallel to our first conversation together I kept replying to them in fact I'm sorry I stopped replying to them at some point because it was just becoming a full-time job writing to publishers to say I don't want to write a book I've only just become leader of a party I think I've got chapter one of the book and actually I think the next chapters are going to be really really exciting and I think you were aware that these conversations were happening and I think you kind of agreed with me that it was too soon for me to write a book but then we came up with an amazing idea so we are writing a book um it's coming out in september and it's a it's bold politics with zach polanski hope is here it's all of us and it's the podcast's book essentially i think the really powerful thing about it is that it's basically all of the contributors that have been on the podcast they've brought so much experience and knowledge and stories to the show not just the celebrity guests but also the you know the people that we we've platformed in their human stories um and the book is essentially like a physical manifestation of hope that has been born off the back of the podcast and it's and what i really love is i think it's balanced all of these things so it's not a book that i've written or is about me but it's a book about platforming the people that i've met and been inspired by with my voice intertwined in there too and penguin who are publishing it also worked on uh greta's uh thunberg's collaboration book and in some ways it's a similar style it's a collaborative book of people that i think are interesting that we have platformed and very much also you're a very strong character in that book in terms of your voice, having been someone who's met me, who's met these people.

33:46And also as a human being in society right now that's worried about the rise of the right and about the future of your kids. And so what I love about this book is, you know, I'm sure I will have a book one day in the future that's about my journey and the party's journey. And actually, this isn't that book because it's not time for that book. But what it absolutely is time for and that I think is going to be brilliant is to think about the state of the country right now, messages of hope, how things can change. and really a book that's not about a book of authority but a book of curiosity. So what are people saying on this podcast and actually what else needs to happen in this country?

34:20And not every idea I have to agree with, not every idea certainly is mine, but actually my thoughts about other people's ideas. Yeah, absolutely. You know, there's some brilliant work in there from Zoe Gardner and then like lots of anecdotes about our time in Calais and the people that we met there and interviews with people who are actually living in the camps in Calais. There's some great stuff from Michaela Loach talking about how we're all interconnected. Michaela was such an amazing guest. Every time I speak to Michaela Loach, I'm just left feeling so empowered and so much more knowledgeable.

35:05I don't know if you remember, but at one point I said America and she very gently but gracefully corrected me and said United States. And honestly, whenever I talk about the United States, I always have Michaela in America because I always take a moment and go, in the United States, I mean, I think I probably tripped up a couple of times, in which case I apologize, but we're fallible human beings, not perfect. Yeah, and I had a similar one where I asked her a question, like, as privileged people, how can we lift up those who are more marginalized in our communities? and she just said to me like, oh, actually like you've got a lot more to learn from those people.

35:43Like you need, like as soon as we need to switch it around, it's not about lifting other people up. It's about knowing that we're all connected and that, you know, we're just approaching, you know, the climate crisis. It's affecting us way less than it has affected people in the global south and the rise of the far right. There's lots of people around the world who we would see as marginalized communities, but actually they have so many more community-led tools that they've developed that we should be learning from to deal with all the things that we're worried about in society. So it's not about lifting other people up.

36:23It's about knowing that we're all interconnected. So leaving that with Michaela, after that conversation, I was just like, my entire perspective on the world had changed. and then there was also George Monbiot who is such a beautiful human being and I phoned him up on like a Tuesday and he sort of said like hello and I was like oh George we're supposed to be talking for the for the Bold Politics book are you still alright to chat and he's like oh no one's put this in my diary and I was like oh I mean do you do you have time? And he was like, yeah, yeah, okay, I've got a bit of time. I was like, okay, great.

37:07And then he just, the first question I asked him was just like, why is there no environmental justice without social, economic and racial justice? And he was like, this is going to take a much longer time. This is not just a quick answer. And he ended up giving me the most elaborate, beautiful responses, like creating these images of like how we can have a better society and we spoke for like 45 minutes to an hour he gave me these very well thought out answers that's so john and i was just like what a beautiful human and um afterwards i was kind of like transcribing the interview i was like i just need to check something like how old george mumbaya was when thatcher came into power and it turned out it was his birthday oh wow he'd like like the reason he didn't have time supposedly didn't have time for me was because it was his birthday and yet he still gave me like an hour of his time i thought you meant his birthday was the day thatcher came to power no okay the day you spoke the day we spoke on the phone that's so lovely he it was his birthday and he'd given me oh thank you george it's like the most beautiful thing but then also like there's loads of things from the podcast that you know we will have enjoyed at the time things that have like you can't remember everything yeah yeah so being able to put some of those quotes down that we've had from the guests actually on paper in a physical copy of something is also a really nice thing to like hold and like go back to and we wanted to make something that was evergreen in the same way that when you listen to any episode of the podcast it's still relevant and we try it We sometimes use stuff in the news to springboard into a subject, but on the whole, we try and keep it pretty evergreen so that people can tune in and then go back and listen to the entire back catalogue.

38:57And what I really love is we know that lots of people who aren't Green Party members listen to this podcast, which is really important to me that we broaden out. And that's why people often ask me, why don't you have more Green Party guests? And obviously we had Chloe Swarbrick, the co-leaved with New Zealand Greens. She's phenomenal. She should definitely listen to that episode. And I should stop saying one of my favourite episodes because it's like having favourite children. but the episode with Hannah Spencer who was Hannah Spencer the plumber and plasterer then, she's now Hannah Spencer MP plumber and plasterer and the right honourable but to feel the shift in that conversation, like that was an incredible moment to go, we haven't abused this platformism, we've not made it Green Party propaganda, obviously it's full of Green Party ideas and I'm a host, so it's pretty Green Party but actually we do platform lots of other ideas too, but actually this is a moment where we're going, no this is a moment where whether you support the Green Party or not, Hannah Spencer is someone we need to get to Parliament and it was amazing to see people respond to that.

39:46I'm really hoping the book can do that too, which is, it's not a Green Party book, it's a book which is about ideas and ideas that everyone can and should engage in. Absolutely. And that moment with Hannah was particularly such a beautiful moment to me because I know that there has never been a political leader in the UK with their own podcast and therefore there's never been a situation in a by-election or in a general election where you've seen a podcast between a party leader and a candidate MP and just to be able to have that conversation and share the stories that you did, which was so powerful.

40:21You know, you guys just, we were all in tears in the studio when she was talking about her greyhounds and just being able to put that to the voters and be like, this is the person that you could vote in as your MP. And like, nobody can take sole credit for Hannah's win other than Hannah. like it was very much a community people-led campaign and that's what won but i just think like that space that had never existed on a campaign before and being able to provide that opportunity for people to get to know the person that's going to represent them was it was such a moment of pride for me because i was we we'd scraped away that veneer of politics and just shown the human and the human behind Hannah Spencer is such a beautiful person and you know the plumber the dog lover like there's all these levels to her as a human and we were able to show that but we were also able to show like what kind of a leader you are and how you listen to her and how you spoke to her and like just provided that space like it's gonna be a lot of MPs out there who were terrified of their whip, of their party leader, and wouldn't be able to have that kind of conversation with them without tripping over themselves.

41:43You created a space where she was just having the best time and was vulnerable. And that translated to the voters. I think what's gorgeous about that conversation, which maybe people don't know this context, but could probably work it out, in a by-election, you are exhausted. I don't care how much energy you have. And I'm someone who prides myself on having lots of energy. Hannah is she just does not stop going but I think I remember both of us sitting down and just being like oh we're sitting down this is unusual and like the vulnerability of being exhausted and having a conversation that I think both of us knew in fact I don't think I know both of us and the entire team including you knew how important that conversation was and what a moment we were having in that room and it's just beautiful that that's now captured you know for memory.

42:26But also just how relaxed it was as well. I just walk into a shot at some point with two vegan sausage rolls and just pop them down. Everyone's been on the campaign trail for weeks now. No one's eaten that morning. Here's a vegan sausage roll. It was such a beautiful space. I'm really glad that we did it and I'm really grateful that the podcast exists. I agree. It's wonderful. So Bold Politics, Hope is Here, It's All of us a book coming from penguin when can people expect it it's coming out in september and it's going to be available in all good bookshops and we want to get it in as many local bookshops as possible and support them and i suppose my final question is starting where we began and it's actually with you on a much more personal level because you're someone who doesn't love being in front of a camera you don't necessarily love um the spotlight but actually we made this joint decision that actually this is your book how are you feeling about you know this is a major step into the spotlight in that way.

43:24Yeah, I think I feel very comfortable and I feel like it's a powerful message and there are times when you can, I think you said it as well, you actually don't like politics. You actively don't want to get involved in politics. I was introduced the other day by a presenter who disagreed with me. It was a live show of another podcast and they said something like, we're all here because we love politics for politics sake, so it doesn't matter whether we agree or disagree with the ideas. I kind of came on stage already irritated because I don't love politics for politics sake. I find it intensely annoying, actually.

43:59It's just there's things that need to get done and the politics get in the way of that sometimes. I think that's the age-old saying, if you want to be a politician, that should immediately buy you from ever becoming a politician. You actively don't want to get involved in politics, but you do feel this complete drive to represent people. like you're like why I couldn't do anything else I have to I'm and you know you're a good communicator so you're like I'm going to use the skills that I have to get the message out there that it doesn't have to be this way that there is hope and I think I'm finding myself in that position now where I'm like really really would rather just be at home with my kids like not doing any of this and just having a nice quiet life but what does their future look like if I don't get this book out if I don't do everything in my power to create a better society to create a society just show people that there can be communities that there can be society and you know I want my kids to grow up in that space that's inclusive and you know community-led and where there's opportunities and where it's green and it's joyous.

45:20Let's get some joy back into our lives. So yeah, I mean, as much as I really don't like it, I'll take it on the chin to get the message out there for our kids. Love that. And as we're recording and we're doing drafts of the book, it feels incredibly hopeful and incredibly joyous. So I think the perfect book for 2026 to speak to people and give us all, including me, including you, joy in our lives. Yeah. Check it out from all good bugs. It's weird saying that. Thanks, Zach. This has been lovely. Thank you. It's been really nice.

45:55Hey, Zach. EcoTalk was set up to use its profits to help restore nature. There's a biodiversity crisis going on, and we need bold ideas to solve it. You're a bold guy, Zach. Your audience like bold actions, and we're bold at EcoTalk. we're making a difference at our rewilding sites across the UK. The more people that join EcoTalk, the more great work we can do. So come on, join us. Go to ecotalk.co.uk slash boldpolitics.

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