How Grass Roots Can Turn Into Global Movements | Mikaela Loach | Zack Polanski

0:00You know when you've got a Labour politician on the back foot because they'll start to throw out supposed insults about sixth form politics or student politics, despite the fact that young people are often the most inspirational, articulate and clear people with a vision of our future. One of those people is the amazing Michaela Loach. She is an activist, campaigner and author. Check out her books. And today I'm delighted she's in the studio to talk about all things climate and all things justice.

0:32Hey, Zach, Chris Packham here. I just want to tell you about something really exciting. EcoTalk. It's a phone company that helps restore nature and it's brilliant. You can find out more about it at ecotalk.co.uk.

0:54Incredibly excited to have you on, Michaela. We were on a panel recently together, and I remember the first question from George Monbiot was, what gives you hope? And then you spoke just before me. And then I often don't prepare an answer. I prefer to just kind of listen and respond. And there was nothing I could say in that moment other than Michaela gives me hope. Just listen to the answer she's just given. So I'm feeling all of those feelings again. I know you're going to COP in a couple of weeks in Brazil, and I did an interview about COP yesterday. The interview was kind of framed around, is COP a waste of time?

1:24And I have very mixed feelings about that. So rather than me broadcasting my feelings, what are your feelings? Yeah, also firstly, thank you so much for having me. And also thank you for saying that. It was also nice that you said that in that moment, because to be honest, sometimes I feel like politicians will say those kind of things and it feels like you're being tokenised in some way. But I didn't feel that way at all. It felt very genuine. And I just genuinely feel like you're a very genuine person, which is something that's very refreshing, I think, for a lot of people. With COPS, so basically this big UN climate conference, which is the international space where climate negotiations happen things like the Paris Agreement that people have probably heard of that gets talked about that's then used in a lot of legal cases around pushing for climate action that we need movements across the world and especially movements from the global south as well it depends on what movements you're talking to but have found a way of sitting in the between of the let's try and leverage as much as we can this space that does exist and put pressure on it where we can to get gains that we need things like funding for the damages that have happened because of climate breakdown things like trying to get more climate finance for the countries that need that most these things that space can be useful for pushing for um whilst at the same time recognizing this like inherent inequality of the space and the limitations of it and not relying on it and realizing that actually like emissions reductions that we need are more likely to be pushed like through kind of domestic ways of organizing so you know organizing in your community organizing like putting pressure on your local government building power that is really important I think will push the kind of transformational societal change that we need to tackle the climate crisis through and we can't just leave it to these international negotiations that have also proven themselves to to fail unfortunately time and time again.

3:16The COP process is obviously like inherently not great in the sense of the fact that it's inherently very unequal. A lot of very rich countries who have historically emitted so much more end up with a lot of power in the process. There's a lot of lobbying that happens. A huge amount of fossil fuel lobbyists go along and put pressure on negotiations and very much undermine the democracy of that. And so people are like, you know, just get rid of the whole COP process. we just need something different and we need to not engage with it at all. Or I think people will go on the other side of this is so important.

3:48All of, you know, people from all the world are together, governments all together. We have to put our all into this and this is the solution to this global issue. I think it's important for us to sit somewhere in the middle, which is actually where a lot of people's movements across the world who have been for a long time. That was so beautifully put. And you talked about loss and damage there. for the audience who might not necessarily know what we're talking about, what specifically is loss and damage? Yeah, loss and damage is basically the things that have been already lost and damaged because of the climate crisis.

4:20So if we think about how Pakistan experienced extreme flooding in recent years that put almost a third of the country's population into displacement and damaged their homes and their livelihoods, that's the damage that's been created because of the climate crisis. So Pakistan, as well as an example of a country where they have to pay more of their percentage of their country's budget to paying back loans and debt than they do on health care because of colonial loan debt structures that we have. And that means they don't have the money to be able to pay for these damages that have happened, whilst Pakistan also is not responsible for these damages historically when we look at emissions.

5:02So loss and damage is basically saying we need to pay for the things that have been lost and the things that have been damaged. And we need to give the countries that need that finance that finance and that should be coming from those countries that have historically caused the most harm. So if we think about, you know, in the pre-industrial era, the UK is responsible for like 96 % of historic emissions. If we look at kind of emissions from now, the US is kind of responsible for 40 % of historic emissions like up to kind of today. So that responsibility sits with those countries that have caused the most of the issue.

5:34it's kind of like if if i went into your house and i just like started spraying water around everywhere and then you'd obviously say to me like hey could you pay for those damages that you've caused um but then um that's just kind of like a common sense obvious thing but through the cop protest through lobbying like these global north richer countries um eu uk us can often try and present it as if this is like wildly unfair and like how could you expect us to pay for this. But I think, again, we need to realise we live in this globalised world now. Our ability to have safe, free, happy, fulfilled lives here in the UK is actually inherently connected to the ability of people across the world to have safe, free, happy lives.

6:21And for other things that we have in our lives, many of those things come from places like Pakistan and other places across the world. So if we choose to just completely abandon these other countries and peoples across the world, that will have a knock-on effect here as well. And so there obviously is like a moral argument, but there's also like a very practical, I think, argument for why we need to work together and make sure that we have a transition that allows everyone to get on board and everyone to be safe and well. And this is a really important COP because all the countries will be putting in their 10-year plans for NDC's nationally determined contributions.

6:53We've also got the second administration of Donald Trump. Yeah. I was trying to find a way to phrase the question, how problematic is Donald Trump? Seems a ridiculous question, but what is the potential for America to disrupt the entire global consensus? I mean, America's already... I also hate saying America, the United States of America, because America encompasses two continents with lots of people. That's why I try and be deliberate about saying US American rather than just American as well. No, you're spot on. That's a good call for me too. No, no, no. Coming on my podcast and going around.

7:25We're always learning. But the US has historically disrupted negotiations. This is not a new thing. And that's why I do think it is significant, the difference with Trump, obviously. And that's probably obvious to everyone. But I do have a level of frustration when it's almost made out that the US has only just become disruptive now that Trump is in power. Like the US has been disrupting these negotiations for a very long time. Like the cops that I've been to, it's usually that, you know, progress looks like it's going to happen. And then late in the day, the U.S. decides to back out of everything because they're pursuing their own interests rather than the interests of the collective.

8:04And then it will end up that like countries will kind of form blocks and vote together. So like there's the like global south block of like many, many countries who will come together and try and vote together. And many, many times have said they'll walk out if the deal doesn't change. but the US still has so much like geopolitical power across countries across the world that they end up being able to dictate many things that happen and I think a really good example of how cops work was actually there's a play recently called Kyoto did you see it yeah yeah yeah I thought it was really good um I don't know if you you know the TikTok trend that was like is this play about us that's how I felt when I was sitting in the audience because I was like oh this actually feels like an accurate depiction of the way that the negotiations become undermined and how lobbying works.

8:50And in that play as well, it showed how the US was like colluding with the fossil fuel industry and fossil fuel lobbyists and how these lobbyists actually came from the US. This kind of start of big fossil fuel lobbying was born in the US. And so I think I just like, I want to resist the narrative that it's just come in with Trump, whilst it is significant how Trump is and how much he like completely just kind of disregards internationalism completely. this has been a longer term issue and so the solution to Trumpism and Trump is not to replace him with a Democrat that will be the same that we've had before we need something dramatically different that is actually going to serve the people and not the elite class and not the fossil fuel industry 100 % also my friend Dale Rapsley was in that play that's not significant to anything other than shout out to the entire cast they were so brilliant I thought they honestly did such a good job I kind of went in expecting to be disappointed because I've seen quite a few climate plays that have just been a bit pounced.

9:51But it was really, really good. It's a great job. And so obviously we've got that kind of big international picture, which you've just laid out there. And you mentioned community organising. How do we find that balance between that kind of hyper local work that people can do as opposed to just watching these negotiations on screen and feeling totally detached from what's happening? I think that's where this kind of balance that I was speaking about before comes from, because what we cannot afford to do is defer our responsibility and agency and power to elected officials only. So whether it is political leaders, even like yourself, or whether it is civil servants who are working as negotiators during COP processes, or whether it is elected leaders who are then going to negotiate these COP processes, we cannot afford to defer our responsibilities to other people.

10:39Because I think it's also, it disempowers all of us. And I think it really limits the future that we'll be able to actually achieve. how I define organising is building the capacity for revolutionary change to be possible. So it doesn't necessarily mean making that change right now. I see organising as distinct from mobilising or campaigning. Campaigns and mobilisation can be part of organising, but they are different from organising. Organising is about how do we resource our communities, how do we build the power of our communities, how do we politically educate our communities, so that when the conditions are right, like the transformational change that we need is possible because we built those conditions and that transformational change that we need we might think strategically of how to build that through campaigns and through mobilizations but i think that what happens too often is we have a lot of mobilizations a lot of mobilizing a lot of maybe a lot of campaigning we could do some more campaigning as well um but not enough of that organizing so that when the mobilizations need to happen they're not as like pivotal as they could have been um because we're not focusing enough on the organizing and because maybe we're believing that we have to defer our power, defer our responsibility to a hero or an elected leader.

11:51But that narrative is just incredibly disempowering because it's just not true of how change actually happens. But we're told these stories at school or through the media that transformational changes were created by these incredible heroes of the past or the present, like, you know, the entire civil rights movement was just MLK, no one else was there. The way that we're told history is if it was just he gave some great speeches and wrote some great letters and that's how change happened. Or even today, sometimes people will think the climate movement, especially the youth climate movement, was just Greta Thunberg and she just had to say some speeches at the UN and wake people up and that was all it was.

12:31When in reality, if we look at the civil rights movement, like Martin Luther King Jr. was chosen by a group of black women in the church who had been already organizing for civil rights for a long time and they needed a charismatic leader who could galvanize people but who played a role as part of a wider movement. So like Kwame Ture talked a lot about how Martin Luther King he was a great mobilizer but he was not a great organizer in the same way. Like he was very good at mobilizing people because that was his role but he wasn't you know, down on the ground, let's build that capacity of the community.

13:06And that's not to disrespect him. I obviously have a huge amount of respect for his work and his legacy, and I've learned so much from it. It's more just that I think we need to tell the truth of how change has happened in the past so we can understand how we can make it in the future, and then also so we can empower ourselves to realise that we actually have a role that is as important as that person that we see, if not sometimes more important, I think, and that so much of that happens underground and behind the scenes. Yeah, something that really struck me was Chloe Swalbrick came on the podcast who's the co-leader for New Zealand Greens and she talked about and it's certainly been my experience that as I'm going around the country people tell me constantly how hopeful they're feeling and how I give them hope now that's obviously a really lovely thing to hear and at the same time it makes me uncomfortable because I go for this exact reason I don't want you to keep finding hope in me I actually need you to go to your local party or local community and do the work and I'll absolutely shout about it on tv and in front of a microphone but we all really need to do the work or those who have the power and the privilege and the choice to be able to do the work need to ally with the people who don't have the choice to do the work.

14:03How do we get that through to people? Or maybe that's the wrong question because even that's a top-down question, right? Well, no, I do think that, like, for example, me and you, I do think our role is in many ways is to try and communicate that to people. And I think you do a brilliant job of doing that. And also, you have made me feel very hopeful as well. But I think that hopeful feeling has come from because I don't feel like you're telling everyone that you are the messiah who will save us all you know and i think instead and i also maybe some of that hope that i get from you comes from the fact that like we first met at a very tiny protest um around the bibi stockholm they're like floating um asylum detention center um and the fact that that to me showed how and this was a few quite a few years ago but how you would just show up for the smaller stuff that is community based and that you care about that and that also and that you gave that your energy and your time and yeah you didn't feel like you were detached from it which I which also made me feel quite hopeful as well in that when I then saw that you were putting in your um your leadership bid um and join the greens because of that to vote for you and welcome um but I do I think the way that we do that is partly to visualize how change really happened but and because we're having to do the work of kind of un of unlearning the way that we currently think it happens and these ideas of heroism and these ideas of individualism which is like a really a thing that's just been like hammered into us um since like thatcher and um pinochet and like the kind of rise of neoliberalism this thing of like that we are individuals separate from each other we're not connected to each other um the conditions that we live in are like our fault or our or our success either of those things either it's our failure if we are not living the life that we want to live or it's only due to our like personal things that we have done whether if we live a successful life um we have to kind of undo so much of that i think in order to understand the power that we have as individuals as well because we have to understand also how the system works in order to understand that power i think because if you think that you know the reason that you are struggling to feed your kids like whilst you're like working multiple jobs or because you have an like a chronic illness that means you're not able to work and you feel like it's your fault and that makes you a bad person that's going to disempower you generally because you'll think I don't have power generally or I'm not a good enough person to do something and that's a way that like neoliberalism as this like political ideology really impacts us on an interpersonal level and disempowers us beyond the like economic practical stuff as well um but instead we realize that oh um there is like active collusion and action that happens by like big businesses by you know ceos by billionaires in particular um and then them colluding with governments to make to create a system that puts you in that way in order for them to profit from you so for example like your wages are being squeezed while some while billionaires are increasing their wealth all the time and that is not your fault as as a worker in that situation um that is being like orchestrated on you and that is not to say you don't have any power instead that's to say okay they're organizing themselves in this way how can we organize ourselves to build our own power and therefore how can we look at movements of the past that have gone through similar situations and worked out a way to build power differently and then i think we've realized that like when i do power mapping exercises um either like through the school of organizing that I run or like when I have run trainings and things it's quite easy for people to see if you do so power mapping is like you do like a grid basically and you're like most power less power like closest to your aims and ideals furthest away from your aims ideals it's quite quick to see that like a group of people have a lot more power than an individual just very easily once you're doing that and so you realize that oh if I want to change these things I'm going to have to group up with more people and increase that power and to think strategically kind of in a similar way in which like the elite class are thinking very strategically and organizing together it's like how can we also organize our communities build our power and then how can we learn of movements of the past like whether it is um like there's a documentary called crip camp which i think is really brilliant which shows um like the disability justice movement in the us and how like kids who'd gone to the same disabled camp like um over the summer then as adults had already had these connections with each other and then organized together in solidarity with the Black Panther movement, others occupy buildings and push through a lot of the civil rights for disabled people in the US that we see today.

18:37But instead we're told that the world just gets better. If we just leave it as it is, it'll just get better and it'll get more progressive and things will change. I think we need to highlight how things don't just get better, people make them better and they've made them better by coming together in movements in collectives, building that power and pushing it through and not just by relying on heroes or exceptional individuals but realising that we all have power and that we can create that change together. I'm feeling the hope again just listening to you. I think that is it. It's about that mirror, isn't it, of recognising our own agency of every single person.

19:09In the next few weeks, there's a decision to be made about Rosebank. For audience who might not know what Rosebank is, could you kind of lay out what it is and why it's a horrendous thing? Yeah, so the Rosebank oil field is like the biggest undeveloped oil field in the UK. So it's in the North Sea, which is off the coast of Scotland. and it's being pushed through by Ithaca Energy who are like part of Delet Group which are an Israeli oil and gas firm so the profits from Rosebank if it was developed will literally be going to support occupation and apartheid and ethnic cleansing so like a Delet Group operate in occupied territories and yeah bad bad bad we don't want that at all Rosebank is also part owned by Equinor which is a Norwegian state-owned oil and gas company.

19:58And Norway also gets a lot of like, you know, Norway's so great and, you know, well-being. They're doing good. The Scandi, all that kind of stuff. But what they're doing is pushing through this oil field that would be absolutely catastrophic for the climate. Like this oil field alone will produce more emissions than the 28 lowest income countries combined from one oil field. And we just don't need it. That's what's so frustrating to think about this whole thing, is that also Labour also said that they were going to have no new oil and gas fields as part of their pledge. So they should, and they have actually said in the courts they removed their defence of the field.

20:34But they should just be cancelling this completely. It's just common sense. It won't help energy bills in the UK. It won't help the cost of living crisis. All it's going to do is make more money for these oil and gas companies that have more money than they need. and it's going to put our collective future at more risk and just goes against all of the climate science advice that's been given. And even the advice that's given by not radical left organisations, like the International Energy Agency is not a radical left organisation. They are a very conservative energy organisation and they've said we can have no new investment in oil and gas if we want a future that we can all live in and survive in.

21:10And so pushing this through is just absolutely nonsense and it's ridiculous and it just shouldn't be happening. but unfortunately the fight has kind of come back now and so it's important that I think all of us fight hard to stop Rose Bank. For sure and the government are going to try and make the argument about jobs and I spoke to Uplift the other day a brilliant campaign organisation who are working in this area who have said that jobs in the North Sea in oil and gas have halved over the last kind of few years anyway so there aren't that many jobs but let's say there are jobs what is our answer to that in terms of the just transition I suppose?

21:40Well I think the answer to that is that is to make sure that what you're saying is just transition just transition basically means how can we transition away from oil and gas um into like a green renewable economy society energy system um that does not disregard and leave behind workers like what we don't want to do is have um thatchers you know laying on mass laying off of workers and um decimation of of worker power instead i think it's very possible um that we can have this transition that increases worker power increases like um working conditions that makes these things better um but only if we prioritize that in the transition and what we need to remember is that these oil and gas companies they do not care about their workers it's so like deeply frustrating that there's even like made out as a legitimate thing that they care about their workers because they put on mass layoffs like as soon as they they want to you know increase their profits the workers are who go first as soon as they want to like shut down some areas they can make more profit elsewhere they'll shut lay off all those workers immediately what instead we need is like commitment that workers will be retrained into the new industry and their jobs will be um secured and made better that they will be um protected they'll be able to unionize they'll be able to have this power they need and all of that is very possible with a green transition and i'd actually say more possible with a great green transition um because we also can get to choose what is this new world that we want what is this new energy system we want we don't have to continue the way it has been now and currently like workers have to do extremely like unsafe jobs as well without many protections without like many like ability to to properly unionize and properly like um you know use their bargaining power to make their workplace safer and so i think it's really key that those of us who are pushing for this transition are in like conversation with workers with unions and are like really showing that we are on the same side and we are not on opposite sides um and that actually that it benefits these like oil and gas CEOs who are making millions while many of their workers are not making anything close to that and it benefits them to create this narrative that we are divided and that again plays into that individualism thing of like we are separate from each other we are not connected and we have to always ask who benefits from this narrative and I think with that narrative it's obvious that the workers don't benefit from that narrative and the only people who do are the like millionaire and billionaire CEOs.

23:55Really good point and I want to pick that up. First let's go for a quick break.

24:02Hello Zach, Chris Packham here. I hear you're being politically bold. Well we at EcoTalk are being equally bold. It's the best service going I've got to say. Best network coverage in the UK. Lots of different deals, lots of packages and if you get any trouble you don't speak to a bot. You speak to a real human but you know the best thing? The best thing is that the profits are going into nature conservation for beavers and badgers and birds and butterflies and lots of other things which don't begin with bee so zach i'm telling you if you want to talk bold mate you better be doing it on eco talk and you can switch really easily at ecotalk.co.uk

24:48earlier on you talked about uh it wasn't a radical left position now this word radical is a word that I sometimes find myself tripping over because often right-wing journalists call oppositions radical and I kind of hawk at it and I'm like, actually, no, what's radical is what's existing right now. But other times there are oppositions where we do want a radical transformational society. Now, you wrote a book all about this. Is it that radical? Well, the book's called It's Not That Radical. Exactly. But in that, the main argument is that often what the changes that we need, and I mean need, I'm not saying just want that we need to have a future that we can all survive in and thrive in um are framed by the mainstream media for example as like radical and extreme and all these different things and as if the actions we need to take it like radical ridiculous like outrageous um what i'm saying in it's not that radical is that the things that we need to get this future are not like ridiculous or like impossible um or extreme what is really ridiculous and extreme is the like immense inequality that is normalized in our society and is increasing ever increasing it is ridiculous and extreme that the billionaire class are like increasing their wealth at like astronomical rates rates i think that people don't fully like comprehend and understand and inequality is so vast and is getting more and more vast in a way that like studies have shown that the average population don't actually understand how unequal like our world is and our society is um and that again benefits this billionaire class like that's what's extreme that's what's ridiculous like that's what um is outrageous what is common sense is that we all want a future we can live in and be safe in and what is common sense and what is very innate in all of us actually is that we want like all of us to be able to be safe and like these very common like basic things like we want people to have a safe home we want people to have access to clean water like these things the fact that anyone does not have access to those things is extreme and ridiculous and outrageous um and so what we need is not that radical in that sense it's very common sense like this future um and it's very possible this future where all of us are safe um but in order to get there we have to go to the roots of the systems that have caused this and so in the meaning of radical as meaning go to the root then it is that radical in that way in the sense that we have to go to like the roots of things like colonialism the roots of things like capitalism the roots of things like white supremacy and unpack those and understand those and dismantle those in order to create this better and transformed world.

27:21And the importance of doing that and going to the root is because it's very possible that we have a green transition that continues a very unequal world. And I think it's really important that people realise that because I think this gets dismissed so often as if that, you know, everyone who's pushing for climate action is great or everyone or any climate action is good and that we should just settle for whatever action we can get. it's very possible that we have a future that is eco-fascist instead so you know the billionaire class have continued to increase their wealth but they've chosen to you know fund technological solutions that will um somehow you know reduce emissions some way and make things greener but those have been but um all of these policies and these solutions have been done at the expense of the majority like that is that is possible um but that world is not a world that we want because there are certain climate impacts that we will not be able to we cannot prevent at this point and we cannot reverse and as things as resources do get um more scarce um we don't want it to be that this you know elite class this billionaire class this like one percent class hold even more than they currently are and there's even less available to the majority when it's very possible that all of us could have everything that we need still in this future um and so instead of this eco-fascist future where there's this like restriction of freedoms of the majority of people what we need and want is what like um is turned by many as an eco-socialist future um but i would not go on the news for example tomorrow i don't want to go on these two anymore but um i wouldn't go on and be like we need eco-socialism because the majority of people watching would be like i have not i don't know what that means and i have baggage attached to that word to socialism and everything else and perhaps so instead we can we can talk about the things that we want for that like what does that mean instead and think how we can use the words we really mean so a future where all of us have enough of what we need a future where we um all get to make decisions over the things that impact us like directly um a future where we no longer have this like mass inequality that those things are very possible and are important but in order to get that future we have to kind of undo those routes that um would push us towards that other way you just said you're not going on the news anymore which makes me sad but i think i probably understand why uh although maybe you do want to explain and also what's next i think that grace blakely actually explained very succinctly the reasons which is a similar reasons for me is why I've chosen not to do I'm not saying I'll never go on again but at least in this point in my life I just want to invest my energy on community organizing to be honest I'm doing political education and building the power of our communities and there are a few ways in which I'm trying to do that one of them is I run a school of organizing called away too which comes from the anti-apartheid chant amandala away too which means the power is ours so away too just means it's ours um and we basically run a sasday school on black liberation and climate justice and like it's like an incubator for young black people who have a passion for their community and like a very like dedicated in the sense of like caring about their direct community they live in and changing something within that but perhaps they haven't been organizing before they've never you know been doing or they've been doing activism in a very like individual sense or maybe they've just not understood you know the language or they've not had the access to the same spaces and we like run this program that basically gives them the like political education the like resources the um stretch the strategy all these things so they can build their own movements from it um or to like join movements and be part of building those and it was basically me thinking what could i have done with when i was like 18 19 and had just started organizing and didn't know all of these things and um was going through all the drama of xr and everything and what do i wish that i had known um and could have learned and it's not about us like downloading this into these young people because we realize they come with so much knowledge and um our way of viewing this is not that we are like you know the beacons of knowledge you download into empty vessels but instead it's the um we all come into the space and can bring in so much into it um but doing this work i think i've also just found to be uh for me like much more fulfilling as well which i think is important that we need to feel purpose in the work that we're doing um and also it's practically felt transformative in the sense of seeing these young people you know come at the start and then like we're about to do the last week of this program um next week um and already like i mean they might our cohort make me tear up all the time i think that they make a bit of jokes about how me and jess are running with like crying all time but only because it's so beautiful to see people recognize their own power and be so passionate about applying it and building their community and wanting to see change happen and it's reminded me i think that like change of us as people is so possible and important and so i do that in like a kind of more movement there's more movement facing in some way sense and then i'm trying to think more strategically with my social media platform of how to use that to do political education on like a mass sense because you know the right are using social media really well and podcasts really well so it's really good you have this podcast um which i'll say to your producer before that um it's yeah brilliant you guys doing this work um and we need to also like take ground in that space and use that space and leverage that space and i think it's ground worth fighting for um and a lot of people do get their like education from podcasts from podcasts, from social media now.

32:42And so all of that is in conjunction with I'm still writing books and I wrote a kid's book this year. Actually, you said something about my outfit when I walked in, but I think this is kind of what I wear when I visit schools. Love it. And there's a school that's about, I think like 20 minutes away from here called London Fields Primary School that have a classroom that's actually the Loach class, it's named after me. That's so cool. And they really inspired me in a big way to write a kid's book. And because I think the education system as well there's like it really depends on your teacher like how much you get taught about these things i wanted to create an accessible resource for kids um and also for teachers to be able to use i mean their teacher gene is legends icon the moment we love gene um but those kids are able to access all that stuff because that brilliant teacher but oh yeah i want more kids to be able to access these things and more things to be accessible i mean the average reading age in the uk is nine years old we need to be talking about these things as if people can actually understand them and read them and then I'm currently writing another book about the billionaire class but not trying to put all of my like education just into my books I'm really trying to make sure that we can kind of spread these things but obviously those who want to dive deeper can access and I really think books are really important but yeah I think it's important that we try and tackle from different angles and so those are different angles that I've been trying to tackle.

33:57That's a phenomenal amount of work. On the opposite end of the spectrum I've really been uplifted in the last couple of days like when i check on tiktok the amount of young black creators who are supporting me but more specifically the green party yeah and if any of them wanted to get involved with organizing say less about tiktok which is an important part of it i think the work you're talking about is the kind of i don't even mean to demean tiktok i think it's all part of i get it i mean i mean last week at um at away too i uh was basically i was sharing with our cohort about a case study of an organizing group that i've helped start up and been part of so so they could hopefully see how the kind of things we've been talking about can get very much applied and then hopefully can help with how they're trying to apply it.

34:36And the case study that I used was Fossil Free Books, which is a group of literary workers who are organising around divestment and for increased power in our literary industry to tackle the fossil fuel industry and Israel's genocide, apartheid and occupation of Palestine. And that was started up by a few of us around the Edinburgh International Book Festival and some boycotts a few years ago. and part of that like case study that i talked to them about was actually to try and highlight to them that don't get distracted by social media because so many people get way too distracted i think by social media in a sense of like as if um you know success is likes and views and visibility like visibility does not equal success and and i i think i've seen some some people writing um some very useful i think challenges to the green party around this of like it's amazing that you guys are getting these numbers and these views.

35:29And I'm locked into every video that you post. I am there on the repost button and sharing it with friends and everything. But that does not equate power. And it's really important that we recognize that and that we do not get distracted in our strategy of just visibility. And this is one thing I really wanted to hammer into them because they all think I'm old, which is so funny, because they're all a bit younger than me. And they were kind of rinsing me for being old, which, this is a new experience for me but they are very much in this new generation of like you know social media is so important you know I didn't grow up when I was the youngest with all the social media that we have today also I'm only 27 I need to clarify that like just in case anyone oh so age is good it's wisdom and experience no no no I'm happy to have my wisdom and that feels bizarre to say it anyway tangentially but I think we can get distracted by the social media stuff and I know also that a lot of them who are part of our program might have come because they follow me on social media and so they might think that like power is social media or like impact social media and for example with Vossil Free Books I had to show that like the way that we use social media was only ever if it was absolutely necessary for a strategic aim of our campaign so for example sharing our first like statement that was signed by like a bunch of authors to put pressure on Edinburgh International Book Festival to like leverage their relationship with asset manager Bailey Gifford to divest their five billion pounds invested in fossil fuels and that was you know useful because the point of it was to like show people this is happening hopefully more authors would then find out about it would sign it and puts more pressure on Edinburgh International Book Festival whereas I see in a lot of organizing spaces movement spaces that people feel this need to like keep up a social media that maybe is not necessary to your strategic aims um i mean you know jess um used an example of um west nord for palestine and how they don't they didn't have a social media um platform for a long time and they only started one up when they had a film festival and a part of that is also because i think sometimes and i found it in some organizing groups that i'm in people can can think that if they follow the account of that group that means that they are part of the group and that is not the case like there is so much work that goes into the actual strategic like and like material changes that we want to see that is not just sharing things on social media whilst that is useful and important and so i think it's really important for all of us to recognize that social media can be used as a tool but it should be used as part of a wider strategy and we should be very intentional of like why are we sharing these things like what is what is this adding into is this going to help our negotiations here or is this going to damage the social license of this company here that will lead to this?

38:16Or are we just doing it because we feel like we need to take up the space only? And then what capacity is that taking away from perhaps the more useful work that's less visible and maybe doesn't make us feel as much of a dopamine boost, but is actually materially creating that change? Yeah, I think that's really well put. In fact, the things I'm most excited about at the moment that are on social media, when I'm seeing pictures where people are out doing things because they've been inspired by the social media but you go actually the social media was not the point, the point was seeing those people in the communities where there's now something 100, 200 people in the community going, we've come here this Saturday to do the work because we were excited by social media.

38:53Exactly and that's why I think that like the amount I still am like blown away, the amount of media that you've been doing, I don't know how you're like, you're okay but I'm glad that you, I'm really glad that you are and I'm so glad that we have you and your capacity and your ability to do this but that is strategic in the sense of like you need to build up the power of the Green Party and you need to bring on more members on board. But we also just need to make sure that those members become active and are organising in their communities so that you're able to actually gain this political power that we need and that's translated.

39:24And I think Grace talked about this really brilliantly on a previous episode. So, yeah. I'm not going to go over it too much. It's not just about electoral politics. Obviously, in the lead of a Green Party, I want to see more Green representation. And it's about that continuation and alignment that actually once you've got that Green representation, the work is being done, as opposed to just you've won some seats. Yeah, and also this thing of the Overton window of possibility, so this window of what is seen, and you can all see it as common sense, what is seen as possible to be made happen, what is seen as common sense, that is often pushed through by movements, that's changed by movements.

39:59And so it's really important that we have grassroots movements who are changing that idea of possibility because already we've seen with reform that what is seen as respectable or acceptable or possible has already been shifted further away with them saying ridiculous things like they would remove everyone with indefinite leave to remain. These are things that, unless we challenge them, also in our community organising, also in our political education, all of these things, that will become more accepted. We've seen it with Trump as well, how things that were previously seen as outrageous or ridiculous have become more acceptable.

40:32And so grassroots movements are really, really important. also because all of our power and change does not just come from government only like we can we can support our communities we can like resource our communities we can make more things possible um and we can make it that like certain industries can't do things anymore like we we can stop things from happening you can find where your local weapons factory is and you can pick it it like out so you can there are things that you can do to like materially disrupt these things and to make it that you can for example um you can stop um fossil fuel projects from getting insurance this is one thing that like the um ecop the east african crude crude oil pipeline campaign they're really focused on like let's just make it that no one will insure this pipeline and it literally can't happen and they've managed to make it that almost every insurance company have like committed to not insuring it and they just need to keep on that that momentum there are things that we can do that are outside of the political system whilst we're obviously wanting policy change and things um but i don't want people to think oh i have to wait you know another five years until the general election until we can push change.

41:33I know you can start doing that today. And I tangency does. Is that what tangency does? I feel like I've used a weird word, many weird words in this story. Add to social media, but how does a young black person get involved with your school? Oh, yeah, that's a, yeah, yeah. Great, great question. Well, we, I mean, we have a website, away2.co.uk. We can go on our social media at away2 as well, which is A-W-E-T-H-U. And you can find, like, ways to get in touch with us there. If you are someone who's not already been organising and you're really keen to, or maybe if you have been organising but you feel like you're nearing the beginning of your journey, we do run a programme every year that you can apply to.

42:08It's completely free. We offer stipends for lost work. We cover travel. We basically make it that there's no barriers for anyone to be able to access it. It's completely wheelchair accessible and accessible and we can meet access needs as well. So if you sign up for our mailing list, then you'll find out whenever the next application's open. we also hopefully can be doing some more offerings throughout the year so just keep an eye on I think I'd say for now just keep an eye on that we are a very small team so if anyone who's listening you know is keen to resource our small team that would be amazing because Jess and I we don't get paid for any of the work we do with the way to like all of our money goes into making sure that success was possible for the young people but unfortunately we have to pay for like buildings and stipends and things like that that we feel like are necessary for this work for our cohort and so yeah if there are other people who would like to support us that would be great I love it people can afford to open up your wallets yeah yeah or like funders as well but we do have an open collective actually that people can but I always feel hard like asking people to even though I think every distribution is really important and I really like stand by that there's just so many things that obviously need support but if this is something that someone feels compelled to support then that would be wonderful I love that so much my favourite versions of this podcast are where I forget I'm on a podcast and I feel like I'm just chatting with a friend taking advice learning things and this has really, really felt like that.

43:26So thank you so much, Michaela. I loved it. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. And honestly, thank you for what you're doing. I'm so proud to have joined The Greens to support you. My neighbours joined. My parents thinking about joining. Actually, many of my friends have joined. I remember your parents. They were just in the audience with the biggest smiles, like so, so happy. Honestly, you've made people feel excited about the possibility of change again and so many people are so grateful for that. Thank you for doing that. thank you for the energy that you're bringing to this and also thank you for not like disregarding or leaving behind grassroots movements whilst doing that i think that like balance is really really important and for being open for challenges yeah the grassroots movement need to be at the heart of our bigger movement yeah big time big time um yeah no no really respect you really grateful for your work right thanks hey zach it's chris packham again i'm ringing to ask if you've switched to EcoTalk yet.

44:25Come on, come on, come on. The beavers are waiting for you and you can go and have a look at them at ecotalk.co.uk.