How Labour Sold Their Souls To Billionaires | Gary Stevenson | Zack Polanski

0:00Gary Stevenson: The moment I launched this podcast, I was flooded with requests for one person and one person alone. Today's the day. It's me and Gary Stevenson.

0:17Gary Stevenson: I've been like reflecting, I think there's three things that have made you really successful. And I'm wondering if you agree and if I'm missing anything. One is you've had a relentless focus on inequality. No matter what bullshit the media have tried to throw at you. You're like, I'm here to talk about one thing and one thing alone. I think the second thing is that you've come from a working class background. You're now incredibly successful. So there's no kind of like politics of envy. That line cannot land with you. Like you've done very well for yourself. And the third thing is you've relied on the media in terms of as an initial kind of pitch.

0:47Gary Stevenson: But so quickly you've gone around the media and you've built your own thing. I feel like that's a powerful combination.

0:52Zack Polanski: Yeah, I thought about it for a long time. I was like bouncing around trying to do something for years. is I quit banking in 2014. I didn't go public till 2020. And I did a lot of work for a think tank. I went back to uni. I did a two-year master at Oxford. Then I decided to go public beginning of COVID 2020. And the first thing I did is I wrote an article, which is what you do. Pitched it to the Guardian. They didn't reply. It went out on open democracy, which is good. And then it did really well. Guardian picked it up. And then there was a bit in 2020 where I was just writing for all of these.

1:23Zack Polanski: I think I wrote for Huffington Post. I wrote for The Express. I was writing for everyone. and I was talking to my mates and obviously I'm saying all this stuff economy is going to collapse we're going to have a cost of living crisis and stuff which no one and my mates like worried and I get talking to my mates and what I see is my mates they're going online they don't want to read Guardian articles you know they're going online they're going online and it was so obvious back then in 2020 and what I was thinking at the time was I was thinking I should obviously be doing video number one because nobody's doing video but i recognize straight away you read an article by me you don't know that i'm from a working class you can't and you know how what's like in this country you see me you hear me you recognize straight away this guy's from working class background and i was like obviously we should be doing video basically as somebody from a working class background i know how meaningful it is when you see someone on tv from a working class background because it's so rare especially talking about things like economics or politics especially when somebody comes in they know their shit they seem solid so i was like i think i think working class background is a big thing but if i can say so myself i think it's partly because i know my shit right you know what i mean like and like so you maybe you've experienced this or like when you first started doing media you get called to do i was calling in and talking about inequality covid cost of living crisis is gonna happen right just i'm doing really well just my specialist subject and then you get called in to do news reviews you must have done a couple news reviews right and i did a couple news reviews i think it might have been with jeremy kyle so i did a couple of news reviews during covid and like for those who don't know that you get sent at like six in the morning 10 stories right and it's it's so stupid when you think about it right because you you know you are an expert on your one thing i you know you well you you you know more about a wide variety of things than me but In my particular case, you have like an exceptionally good economist.

3:18Zack Polanski: And in the morning, I'm running around like, oh, what do you think about this Prince Charles story? I'm calling people up. Can you talk to me about immigration? I don't know anything about, you know what I mean? And I'm having to research all of these stories and then you have to speak about them like you're an expert. And I did too. And then I was chatting. I didn't. I just felt uncomfortable afterwards. And I was chatting to my mates again, like my high school mates on WhatsApp. And I was like, you know what? I'm not going to do it anymore. I'm not going to do news reviews and I'm not going to be forced into this like ridiculous situation, which everybody gets forced into on the media where you have to go on when you are a legitimate expert on one thing and then you're forced to go on and pretend you're an expert on something that you're not basically.

3:55Zack Polanski: I know what I am, right? Like, I think I'm a smart guy and I've got opinions on lots of things but at the end of the day what I'm a real expert on is quite limited, right? And it's inequality, economy, cost of living but it just happens that that is the thing that the vast majority of the country really, really, really, really care about. So I've decided just like hammer that one thing in. And when I make the videos, I always had, you know, you've got to have like, I don't know if you have this, right? Like a big picture, big picture pitch of what I'm doing with the video. And for me, it's economics, but it's understandability.

4:33Zack Polanski: Absolutely crucial. There's so few people actually doing economics in an understandable way. Accessibility. people again economics so bad for like using terminology people don't understand and well welcomingness that was what it was it's a channel which is about the economy which you can understand it's accessible to wide right people and everybody feels like I'm welcoming you know I knew so I remember when I when I when I when I first pitched the book to Penguin it would have been like 2022 and with like cost of living crisis in the middle of it and I remember sitting there with all of these, you know, sort of quite posh, very, very nice.

5:08Zack Polanski: They're lovely, the thing with Penguin. You know, lovely middle class publishing types. And I'd say to them, you might be worried that when this book comes out in two years, the economic situation is better. It's out of date. It will be worse. Again, this is the one thing, like, from the beginning, in a sense, because I always knew that the cost of living crisis and the economic situation would worsen. So really, I was just used that one simple thing that I know this crisis is going to happen. I know there's, in a sense, I recognised the commercial gap. There will be a continual worsening economic crisis and there will be nobody really clearly explaining that online, which is where people want it.

5:48Zack Polanski: So really, it's just like kind of a commercial pitch, really. I saw that gap and I'm going to be there relentless. Just, I am the guy, the only guy that is explaining it understandably, really. That's, yeah, and I think that's why it works.

6:01Gary Stevenson: It's been phenomenal. And I heard you on your own channel, Gary's Economics, the other day.

6:05Zack Polanski: Yeah.

6:05Gary Stevenson: Talk about me. And you said it's almost like he's watched my stuff and picked up that, you know, we need to go on inequality. And I've undoubtedly been inspired by the work you've done. So I guess it's a chance to say thank you in person. That's right. That's also cutting through. And we've chatted privately before. I'm sure you don't mind me saying this. Yeah, it's fine. We talked about the need for a diversity of messengers. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And actually, whether you're the leader of a party or an economist or, you know, whatever your role is, it's actually about lots of different people in different fields all saying the same thing.

6:31Zack Polanski: Yeah, and I went on a little break May, June. And before I did that, I put out a video. Really encouraging. I want other people to start creating. Right. Start making videos, start going up. Partly because it was just, I really felt like a lot of weight was on my shoulders. You know what I mean? The channel was like really blowing up first half of the year. And we were like, we really had like the will of the people behind us. But we were not cutting through with the politicians. And it just felt like I wanted to go on holiday. and I felt like if I do go on holiday, who's going to carry this message basically?

7:05Zack Polanski: Which is why I should say thank you to you for the unbelievable amount of press you've been doing in the last few weeks. Because when I see that, if I can be totally honest, I see that and I think maybe I can go on fucking holiday now basically because, you know, you've been doing a crazy amount of press and I had the crazy press campaign beginning of this year. And I know it's a lot and I know it's stressful, but it works. you know it works like we had so much cut through with our press campaign you just go and and that's the way you know penguin planned the press campaign for me they would say to me gary don't do any press for six months and then for three months you're going to be like the busiest man in the world and like that that is what works basically but i think we we absolutely do need a diversity of messengers because this idea that like growing inequality is really at the heart of the economic problem.

7:57The reason, so, for those who don't know,

7:59Zack Polanski: probably everybody who watches this will know, you know, I made a ton of money on that, betting on that. And the reason why I made money on that is because people don't understand it. And I knew, I studied economics, right? So if you study economics, you don't do any inequality. So people from outside economics maybe watch my channel and think, oh, that's obvious. Inequality is like, if inequality rises massively, of course living standards will fall. What I want people to understand is most economists don't believe that that is the thing and and this is the big problem that we're coming up against really which is the economists are wrong and they're like they're stubborn they're stubbornly hanging on to this idea that you can just sort of sensible your way out of this um and I'm at this point where I've kind of won the public and I'm kind of thinking how do we break into this like this kind of elite space of economists including like economists in the Labour Party and at the moment if I'm being totally honest and like I've done some research on this I don't think they like me the economists in Labour and a lot of sort of prestigious economists and for that reason it's very easy for them right now to be like oh fuck wealth taxes that's Gary's idea and we don't like Gary and what we need is more people saying it so that it stops being that's Gary's idea and starts being common sense and I think you know you look at what the far right has done in the last really five ten years which is create this like coterie of like I called it I think I maybe I said it to you I call it the WWF theory which is for those who don't it's the wrestling I think it's called WWE now but you watch wrestling I used to like wrestling when I was a teenager and when I was a kid you know you have to have like 20-30 faces you know what I mean?

9:41Zack Polanski: And you know, yeah, exactly. And then that, then that creates the sense that it's not just, you know, I don't know, fucking Jordan Peterson's idea. You know what I mean? It's like, it becomes common sense. Like that, the way that an idea goes from being like the rogue idea of one guy to common sense is multiplicity of voices. So yeah, when I first saw you like popping up, you recognize it as somebody who's been putting an idea right. You're like, yeah, this guy is, he's been watching our videos, you know what I mean? And that's, that's what I love to see. I like to see even when Neil Kinnock came up and he started saying it I was really happy to see he doesn't mention me you know what I mean and you know if you want to mention me you can but like you don't have to and to be honest I want this I want the idea to grow the understanding to grow that if you do not deal with growing wealth and equality living standards will fall because it's for me it's stressful the idea being like Gary's economics idea I would rather just people understand that and then we can push it and the way that you do that is multiplicity of voice

10:34Gary Stevenson: I guess the challenge I'd have because we're going to agree too much

10:37Zack Polanski: yeah

10:37Gary Stevenson: is so the Green Party I've been talking about wealth taxes for years. I guess what I did or have been doing that's different, I guess, is going this is the thing to focus on. Because obviously everyone knows we care about the climate crisis, but inequality is making the climate crisis worse and the climate crisis will make inequality worse too. But sometimes when I hear you talk about the Labour government, and I get this, you still want to have influence over them. And I can completely understand when I put myself in your shoes why that's the smart move. But I also feel that it's giving them too much credit because I don't think it's not that they understand.

11:04Gary Stevenson: I don't think it's not that they don't like you. I think they're in hock to vested interest that mean that they don't want to tax the wealthy and the wealthy won't allow them to get taxed. So I'm wondering how you get over the kind of, it's not like if you just give them the right information, they'll have this breakthrough. There's very powerful interests that are trying to, and we've seen them attack you in the media too. And they're the same people who are donating to this Labour government or some of them are the same people.

11:25Zack Polanski: Yeah, I mean, you could be right. The truth is that it's only really in the last three months that I've been actually trying to speak to Labour MPs. I did a video and I came back. So, you know, my stuff grew unbelievably quickly, right? And it's, you know, it's so big now that you can forget this. Like a year ago, you know, we hit 100 ,000 subs on YouTube last year. You know what I mean? Yeah, and it's one and a half million now, and it's more than a million on Instagram. So I was so focused on just grow, just grow, just grow, just grow, just grow. And the idea was once we grow, then we try to influence the politicians.

11:58Zack Polanski: Because, like, first you get the power, and then you actually try to have the change, right? So it was only since I came back in June that I was like, OK, now let's go and see. Can we have any influence on Labour? And yeah, if I'm being honest, it's been incredibly disappointing. You know, there are people, one of the younger MPs, Noah Law, I had a great chat with him and he seemed good. And I suspect that because obviously they've got a lot of new MPs that are just, you know, one year in, there probably are some fans in there that are just a little bit too scared to say out publicly that they're supporting our stuff.

12:29Zack Polanski: and maybe when the leadership changes, which I suspect it will, we might get a few more voices openly. But yeah, I've been very, very disappointed with what we've got back from Labour. And I couldn't tell you for sure why that is. And, you know, as somebody who's been in politics on the inside longer than me, I'm not going to disagree with you. You know, you could well be right. You know, and I'm sure they do have wealthy donors and I'm sure some part of their mind they are thinking about those people.

12:57Gary Stevenson: And I suppose I mean this as a huge compliment to you I've heard you, I can't remember where I heard you talking about this, but it almost sounded like, I think it was on your own YouTube channel, almost like you were kicking yourself that you hadn't been effective enough yet in convincing Labour MPs to have meetings with you. And I thought it's actually the opposite. It's because you're bloody effective. You know your stuff and you're clear that they are terrified of that meeting. And I think they will do everything to avoid having that meeting because the case is indefensible of what they're doing.

13:23Gary Stevenson: the fact that they have this budget where they're talking about being pounds of black hole and there's a very obvious thing to do about it uh they're avoiding that that i don't know how they could have a conversation with you look you in the eye and go oh we still don't quite understand what what do you mean we should tax for one percent a little bit more yeah i don't know i think it's a combination of things i think there is yeah i've been like snooping around a bit

13:44Zack Polanski: you know and i can't say who i speak to but i hear that there is some you know if you've been following my stuff for a while i i'm not always the most diplomatic in the way i speak about labor or the way i speak about economists um some could say i'm too honest i don't know but um you know i i speak to the public and i've got my strategy of like i'm going to be honest you know labor reached out to me and they were like well some people in labor reached out can we talk and i went on the channel and said they've reached out and you know i don't think they minded that but it's very very frustrating it's very frustrating listen we've spoken before and um you know that i think highly of what you're doing and i think the strategy is good um and i think it's what is needed and i think the space is there but you also know that i'm looking at this situation and you know i am very very very worried about what happens i think the economic situation worsens I think the cost of living crisis worsens.

14:43Zack Polanski: I think living standards will worsen. I think that will increase the popularity of reform. If I'm being totally honest, I think reform will win the next election. And we have to be realistic about what that means, right? You know, I come from a very poor background, and this means, you know, the amount of real poverty that's happening, real poverty, this is not, you know, relative poverty. This is families that struggle to feed their kids, struggle to put the heating on, struggle to pay the rent, struggle to pay the bills. that is really growing and that will continue to grow. And as much as I have a lot of respect for what you do and I recognise how hard you're working because I've done a similar thing.

15:20Gary Stevenson: You're going to say to me it's Starmer or Farage.

15:22Zack Polanski: No, listen, no, look, look. I think what you're doing is very needed.

15:27Gary Stevenson: Right.

15:27Zack Polanski: And I think it's important that you do what you do. But if I'm totally honest, I'm sitting here and saying it's not going to be, I think Starmer will be gone, right? But the reality is after the next election the chances of us having a Prime Minister that is not a Labour or a reformed Prime Minister is low. And I don't mean that in any way disrespect. You probably recognise that as well. I think it's important that you're there because... Listen, I have to treat for what it is. It's a game. I see Labour aren't giving us anything. And if you're out there pushing wealth taxes and you're super popular and you're going to win 40 seats, then that gives me power when I go and talk to whoever the new Labour Prime Minister is.

16:10Zack Polanski: And, you know, I don't see that as me using you. I see that as like, surely you also, this is the role of a smaller party.

16:18Gary Stevenson: I'm with you entirely. And then there could be a hung parliament because particularly if reform have done very well, those seats have come from Labour. They've probably gone green, maybe more to the Lib Dems. And so then I do think there's an interesting conversation about what the negotiations look like with wealth tax, proportional representation. So we're not in this ridiculous situation ever again. and for me, action on the climate as well. And I think that all makes sense. And I think you are operating in the right place there. You can be totally honest with me. The podcast is called Bold Politics.

16:44Gary Stevenson: Be bold, Gary.

16:45Zack Polanski: I have to be, you know, look. And, you know, listen, I don't hate Starmer. I've never met Starmer. You know, for me, this is a game. You know, this is a game. And the stakes are really, really, really, really high. But, you know, look, Nigel Farage, until the last election, I think he'd only ever won one MP, right?

17:03Gary Stevenson: Right.

17:03Zack Polanski: And yet he's been dominating British politics for 15 years. You can have a phenomenal amount of power as a smaller party and as a leader of a smaller party without needing to win the next election because Brexit happened because of fraud. You had no MPs at the time. You know what I mean?

17:19Gary Stevenson: And so the pitch backwards, and that's how you recognise this, is the long game is to replace Labour, not to be disappointed with them, not to be concerned with them. They have done such a shit job that actually they don't deserve anyone's votes at this point. Now they could change that, and I'm glad people like you are pitching them to change that. but also I feel there's a point and I think we're past this point and maybe like this is where we're different and I get that yeah I think we're way past the point where they're savable or salvageable I think the record of what they've done in government has been so bad that they're pushing people to reform and so I see this moment and it's happening across the country we're getting councillors defecting to the greens we just got three embarking a couple of weeks ago in Queens Park in Brighton the Labour vote just crashed down and the green vote rocketed it up yeah now we know that Labour's main argument will be what you're saying they're saying it's us or Farage but actually Farage a few years ago was not conceivably the Prime Minister and not conceivably the bigger party so I think and I'm getting I'm using your own lines on back on you now this is about salience of storytelling yeah and I can hear right now that the story I'm telling is not believed across the country because the narrative is so strong that it's the Labour Party used to be the Tories but now it's reform I want to get to a place where it's reform of the Green Party because at At least we'd be having a battle of ideas rather than kind of mush of centrism that doesn't really stand for anything.

18:31Zack Polanski: Well, look, you have always been supportive of wealth taxes. The Greens had wealth tax in the manifesto last year. I would love us to be in a situation where they were realistic winners of the next election. And I wish you the best of luck in getting there if you can. And I think where we are right now, you know, if we are somewhere similar in May to where we are now, of course, I'm going to be going saying to everybody vote Green, because then that's a sign that the public want wealth taxes. And if we go into the next election and you guys are like realistically there and you're going to win, especially if we don't get anything from wealth tax on Labour, then of course I'm going to say that.

19:06Zack Polanski: But I just have to... I don't think I can ask any more of that from you

19:09Gary Stevenson: other than to run as a Green MP in the future, but we'll work on those. But I think, joking aside, I think there's a power to your independence, which is ultimately you can keep me honest, you can keep the party honest, which is I'll support you as long as you're supporting the things I care about. the moment you look like you're U-turning or you're not going to do it, then you've not got my support. Yeah, I think that's reasonable.

19:26Zack Polanski: Yeah, and you know, we've spoken, you know, and we've gotten on well, but we don't know each other super well, but I respect what you're doing. And, you know, if you're, at the end of the day, like the fact is, I'm a player in this game now, you know, you're a player in this game now and the stakes are high and I have a responsibility to the people who support me and also to the future of the country, you know, and, you know, I'm going to be honest about it, you know. Listen, we can be mates, you know what I mean? But when it comes to politics, I have to use you to get what I think we need. You know, I walked away from a lot of money to do this because I genuinely believe that there is going to be a massive, massive increase in poverty in this country.

20:08Like, this is not, it's just not a game.

20:11Zack Polanski: You know what I mean? Well, I've said it is a game. But what I mean is the stakes are unbelievably high, which means that I have to and you have to recognise that and look at the end of the day you are the leader of the Green Party and you've worked hard to be there and you have to do what you do you represent a different group of people to me you know what I mean you have to do what you think is best for you and the people who support you and I have to do what is best for me and when you mean a different group of people

20:37Gary Stevenson: you're not talking about you're talking about the constituency of people who are following your work yeah you know what I mean like yeah you know but I want everyone to know the Green Party like we are building our working class base and i think that's a lot of the people that support you but i also know there are plenty of wealthy people like the patriotic millionaires who go gary is doing what what needs to be done we're going to take a break welcome back to bold politics with me zach polanski i don't necessarily endorse any of the messages you just heard unless there was something there that was great for the planet in which case go buy it if you want it the point here though is podcasts are not free to make they're quite expensive so we do need sponsorship we're as diligent as we can be about the people who advertise on the show but we are not in full control of it and I just want to be really transparent about that with that, back to the show

21:25Gary Stevenson: Can I ask, so we talked about Keir Starmer might not be there very long the budget is coming this November can he save this budget? what can him and Rachel do? if you were the Chancellor the problem you have is

21:39Zack Polanski: I've been on this sort of charm offensive, world's worst charm offensive probably, in the last couple of months, trying to talk to think tanks and these left-wing and centrist think tanks and the Labour Party. I go to them and I say, I would like to be clear, what has happened since Labour won is exactly what I said would happen before they won the election, which is that they will get in, they will kind of think that you can sensible your way out of a massive... You know, it's like coming in like you're playing Monopoly and all the properties already owned. And you're like, I'm so good at Monopoly.

22:14Zack Polanski: It's like, well, no, you're not. Either you get your resources back or you're basically fucked. And they're fucked. And I've been saying for years, you need to be ready to do wealth taxes, tax on the rich. You need to be ready. And I've been ignored. And then I go and speak to them now. And I'm like, guys, you really, really, really need to do this now. And they're like, well, we're not ready to do that. The budget's in two months. So fuck it. and it's like well I was here five years ago four years ago, three years ago, two years ago the truth is the work has not been done the work has not been done and people turn around to me and say why don't you do it as if I'm the fucking Labour Party you know what I mean the Labour Party and other parties such as your own party need to be serious when you recognise wealth taxes you can't just pick them down off the shelf you know what I mean I would encourage you guys to look into this as well because it takes work the challenges to wealth taxes they are real it doesn't mean you don't do them because if you don't do them you're totally fucked but like the work needs to be done the work hasn't been done which means now going into it's well November's budget they're basically fucked that's like they're they're not ready to do world taxes so they're probably gonna have to raid the middle class it's gonna be woefully unpopular I mean good luck to them but you know what I met with a guy who's sort of behind the scenes Labour staff I won't mention like any names because he's a nice guy just after they won just after they won I met with the guy I just happened to meet him socially he's like a friend of a friend or whatever and I said to him you do know if you don't deal with the wealth tax thing you are going to be totally fucked right and they were like oh yeah and I'm like no this is like serious right and he didn't take it seriously you know and this is you know

24:02Zack Polanski: you know I think there's this frustrating kind of let them eat cake-ism. I was talking to my friend about this. It's a very middle class space. You all know that as well as I do. And these guys, they don't know how bad things are on the ground. And they think that they can just sensible their way out of a really bad situation. Until and unless somebody really grasps the nettle of rapidly growing wealth inequality in this country, then your underlying situation just gets worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse so um i i think november will be incredibly unpopular um you know if they're lucky they keep rolling sixes and interest rates fall in the financial markets but um no i think they're

24:48Gary Stevenson: going to be in a very bad situation and then you have a catchphrase which i often use for tax wealth not work if i'm challenging that though and i'm challenging myself partly here i happen to have view in front of me I sometimes worry are we sending the wrong message to people that you know at some point we will need to tax work as well yeah and so this is about that one percent or it's about the super super wealthy but actually we need to have a whole conversation in this country about taxation and public services I think there is a question about do you tax

25:16Zack Polanski: high earners more I'm well I'm not really a super high earner anymore but I'll be willing to pay a little bit more tax if it meant that the country stopped sort of rapidly collapsing. But the thing is, that's not enough because, you know, what's going to happen now in that November budget is probably Labour will go after some of these higher earners, this sort of, they're going to go for this sort of upper middle class. And, you know, I'm not necessarily against taxing this sort of upper middle class or sort of like these people a bit more in order to keep the welfare state going. But if you don't alongside that also tax the very rich, then what you're basically doing is you're taking wealth from the middle class and you're giving it to the very rich in order to prolong the welfare state for a couple of years.

26:02Zack Polanski: And in the long run, you are making that inequality situation worse. So, listen, I would be perfectly happy to live in a country that taxed high earning working people a bit more. And this is your sort of classic left or right dichotomy. The thing is, there is also this problem of this ballooning top 1 % and top 0.1 % wealth. And taxing the upper middle class more is not going to fix that problem. Really, I'm a single issue guy. And, you know, I'm not like a big state or a small state guy. I'm not a high tax or a low tax guy. I am like, I think we need to stop thinking about economics as left and right and start thinking a bit more like sort of like being a car mechanic.

26:40Zack Polanski: which is that there is one very specific problem here which is ballooning 0.1 % wealth. If you don't do anything about that, it gets bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger and there's less of the pie left for the rest of us. So, you know, I say, the reason I say tax wealth not work is to just make it really, really, really, really clear. When I say, I used to say, you know, tax the rich.

27:00Gary Stevenson: Yeah.

27:00Zack Polanski: And people think that means, you know, taxing high-earning people. And the truth is...

27:05Gary Stevenson: Or even like hairdressers and plumbers think you're talking about them.

27:07Zack Polanski: Yeah, but we already are a country that taxes high-end people quite highly and then you have these billionaires paying nothing. If you don't deal with that, then in 10, 20 years, they're on everything. And that is something you have to do something about.

27:21Gary Stevenson: I think education in this country too, the difference between a millionaire and a billionaire is so, so huge.

27:27Zack Polanski: Yeah. Well, it is hard to understand because, I mean, a billion... People think I'm a billionaire, which I'm definitely... But people don't know the difference because a billionaire is just like... Okay, I think this is one good way to explain it. If you have just£1 billion, and obviously some of these billionaires have much more, your passive income from£1 billion, if you earn 5 % a year, which is quite conservative, is£1 million a week. That's how much passive income you make if you have£1 billion. So, like, it's, you know, people ask me, like, should billionaires exist? And I say no, and people think I'm a communist.

28:00Zack Polanski: Like, if you allow a small group of people to have an unbelievably enormous amount of wealth and power, they will inevitably use that to take the rest of the wealth and the power. It's as simple as that. You know, look at European history, right? You know, until World War II, you know, my grandma was born in the early 20th century in the richest country in the world, the UK. And three of her siblings died of tuberculosis, a disease of poverty, right? That is what can happen in the richest country in the world if you do not manage your distribution and your inequality. You know, so it's as simple as that, really.

28:36You know, it's somebody needs to keep an eye on this.

28:39Zack Polanski: And I just see this again and again, this phenomenal naivety of you just don't manage your distribution of wealth and power. And then the government share collapses, the middle class share collapses and you're left with nothing. You know, it's like we're playing chess and I'm letting you take a piece every day. and I'm like, well, I'm really good at chess, so eventually I'm going to win. You know, there's this really horrible naivety about resources in our political discussion. And I think nothing typified that more than COVID. Because you have this situation in COVID where government has given out total government deficits since the beginning of COVID.

29:12Zack Polanski: It's more than a trillion pounds now, 20 ,000 pounds per adult. And we knew at the beginning of COVID that would happen. And there was no discussion of who is going to get that trillion pounds. and I think that, I honestly think in my life I've never seen anything more amazing than that like where all of these economists all of these fancy universities all of these politicians all of these journalists all of these central banks there is such a phenomenal naivety about distribution of wealth that we basically watched our government bankrupt itself in front of our eyes to enrich the richest people in the country and were then surprised when living standards fell and it's maddening for me it's maddening for me and that's why I'm glad to hear you talking about it but we need more people talking about it as well.

29:53Gary Stevenson: Well, it strikes me that you say you're a single-issue guy but you did a video fairly recently on housing and I just thought it was a really, really powerful video but I feel like you could almost do a video on any issue and see it through the lens of inequality. So you say you're a single-issue guy but this kind of cuts through literally everything. Yeah, I think we need to start seeing economics a bit more like we see medicine

30:14Zack Polanski: which is like, you know, doctors don't expect to be like one god doctor with one formula of everything that understands, like, you know, you learn your basics and then you specialise. You know what I mean? It's as simple as that, right? And then, you know, and I'm an expert on inequality, right? And, you know, it doesn't matter how good your fucking heart is. If your lungs don't work, you're going to die. You know, I'm an expert on inequality and I can see very, very clearly this is, in 20 years, the 0.1 % we're on everything. And then we're going to look like India, we're going to look like Brazil, and we're going to have these very, very low living standards.

30:47Zack Polanski: and the way that that manifests is unaffordable housing it is low wages it is the inability to provide government services so and that is like medicine as well right you know if you have you know a problem with your heart that's going to manifest in a number of ways you see all these symptoms but you know all i'm doing is you understand like one one video i did was where i said if you go to say a very unequal country like i went to colombia a few years ago and there's quite a few big cities in Colombia and if you go to or to be honest any big Latin American city what you see is this tiny they always call it like the zona rosa like this tiny little area in the centre which is unbelievably wealthy and then the rest of the city is basically a slum and I come from Ilford which is like a kind of poor area of east London like quite far out and it's becoming a slum and when you look at London what you can see is you can see the physical shape of London transforming away from what London used to be which was a middle-class city which is middle-class housing all across the city with middle-class services all across the city to a very unequal city with like a very very wealthy centre and slums all around it so I think once you understand inequality you start to see it manifesting everywhere and I think people think of the housing crisis as a housing crisis but you know obviously if you live in a very unequal country what that means is ordinary people get very little housing just like they get very little food, they get very little energy.

32:13Zack Polanski: What you are seeing is your share of the pie decreasing. And it's not just housing. Look at education, look at healthcare. Ordinary people are getting a smaller share of the pie in every section of the economy. And it really frustrates me when people just look at one issue, oh, can we just build more houses? I went on LBC the other day. Did you see this? I went on LBC. And I said to him, listen, it's not a London issue. It's happening in every city in the world. I listed like 10, 20 cities. And it was like, but housing is affordable in some places, right? Like Australia. Go ask an Australian If housing is afforded in Australia This is a global issue And it's caused by inequality And you know I'm sorry to be that guy That keeps saying Everything is inequality Everything is inequality But what inequality means is Your share Your family's share Your community's share And your government's share Falls to zero

32:58Gary Stevenson: Yeah

32:58Zack Polanski: That's what it means Your share falls to zero And what that looks like If you want to know What that looks like Go to Mumbai You know what I mean Go to Johannesburg Go to a really Really really unequal country And a really really unequal city and see how the ordinary people live. Because I guarantee you that will happen here if we don't deal with it.

33:14Gary Stevenson: It really struck me in that interview. You were being interviewed by Tom Swarbrick, who used to work for Theresa May. Yeah. And just like the audacity almost to have these questions as if you're protecting the economy right now, the status quo, as if it's working. Because sometimes when people criticise you or criticise the idea, I'm like, well, where's your idea? Because the idea you've got right now is doing exactly what, like it's the worst of every possible world. So that links in there actually with my next kind of set of questions. So people have got criticisms I don't want to go into because I think we both know how to smash it out of the park.

33:42Gary Stevenson: Things like a billionaire is going to leave, all that kind of nonsense.

33:45Zack Polanski: That's all on the YouTube if you want to see it.

33:47Gary Stevenson: Exactly, and people know how to deal with those. There's people, though, and I don't want to pit economists against each other because I know you have respect for Richard Murphy, he has respect for you. His kind of big thing, though, is wealth taxes won't work because it's too difficult to kind of define people's wealth or it's too difficult. He said to me that no one has done more work in the world or in this country in determining how people can hide their wealth. how do we kind of answer these questions?

34:10Zack Polanski: I agree that taxing wealth is difficult I think actually taxing wealth is bordering on very difficult if you don't do it the country collapses it's as simple as that and I think what you see here with me and someone like Richard Murphy is basically two people coming out from different angles which is I am somebody who recognises inequality you know I am a heart doctor saying the heart's dying and Richard Murphy is saying well hearts are difficult to treat so forget the heart I don't criticise him I'm sure he's an accountant so he's looking at how do we raise money and I don't say well taxes to raise money I've never said that once I've never said tax well to raise money I say if you do not tax you know what I don't even want to reduce inequality what I want is to prevent inequality from increasing to the point where the 1 % on everything that's what I want

35:02Gary Stevenson: I'm not an optimist I'm not an idealist

35:04Zack Polanski: I am a trader and I bet on this. And I am a very, very good forecaster of the future economy. And I can tell you with a very, very high degree of confidence, if you do not tax wealth, then the grandchildren of 90 % of the country will live in the kind of desperate poverty that my grandmother lived in. It's as simple as that.

35:22Gary Stevenson: And my observation is this is what you're doing that maybe Richard is doing in a different way. It's just communicating. You started this beginning of the podcast by talking about the need for accessibility, for people to understand what you're saying. And you obviously have the depth of all of this going on, but also you recognise that when you're talking to an audience, they don't necessarily need all these details. And I've seen you over and over again, journalists have said to you, give me some numbers or give me your detail. And you've got, that's not my job. That's civil servant's job. That's the government's job.

35:46Gary Stevenson: My job is to establish for principle.

35:47Zack Polanski: This is what I am, right? I am the guy who has been to the bottom floor of the Titanic. and seen the massive hole in the bottom of the ship and the water flooding in. And I am going up to the top and saying, there's water flooding into the bottom of the Titanic. And I have people saying to me, oh, but fixing the bottom of the Titanic is difficult. You know what I mean? And there's people saying to me, you know, maybe we should do other things other than fix the bottom of the Titanic. You know, and then a lot of people frustratingly say to me, why don't you fix the bottom of the Titanic? You know, listen, look, I know I come from a working class background and I know that the world that we live in, And it's easy to look at me and say, oh, he's an idiot or he's a liar.

36:23Zack Polanski: Listen, I was one of the best students at LSE. I was one of the most profitable traders in the world, one of the biggest banks in the world, despite coming from nothing. Because I understand and have understood one single thing, which is that inequality of wealth is rapidly increasing and it will accelerate because that's what compound interest does. And if nothing is done in 20 years, the 0.1 % will earn everything. And I've made millions of pounds betting on that one thing. Kids from my background don't make millions of pounds for no reason. I'm not claiming to be an expert on everything. I'm telling you one simple thing.

36:58Zack Polanski: If you don't do anything about rapidly increasing inequality of wealth, then in the relatively near term future, 10, 20 years, the 1 % will own absolutely everything. And that will make everything unaffordable. That will make living standards collapse. It will make England look like India, look like South Africa, look like Brazil. That's the truth. And, you know, it's very frustrating for me, right? Because, you know, I still bet on these things. I still bet on these things. And I make more money from that than anything else. You know, I still bet on these things. I still bet on the country collapsing.

37:28Zack Polanski: And then people turn around to me and they say things like, well, we can't stop the country collapsing because it's hard. Right. You know, well, it is hard, but it's probably worth trying. You know, it's probably worth trying, you know. So, you know, sometimes it's worth trying to do things that are hard.

37:45Gary Stevenson: I was in Klaxon the other day. In fact, it was my first week as leader. I thought I want to go speak to Farage's constituents. It's the first thing I want to do, not go to speak to people who agree with me, but have a discussion. It was really interesting. There was a whole discussion about immigration that maybe we can talk about in a moment. But the really fascinating thing was the amount of people who said the country is unequal, it's unfair, and you're never going to be able to do anything about it. And just the amount of hopelessness I felt talking to people on the street. and that after a while you give people hope and you kind of get them signed up to the idea that it doesn't have to be this way.

38:14Gary Stevenson: But you've done a lot of talking recently about the saynance of storytelling and bringing people on board. Where do those stories need to come from?

38:22Zack Polanski: I mean, they need to come from people like you and me, but I think they need to come, I think this is our responsibility as a society. Everybody needs to get involved in this. You know, when I did that, I did a video recently about saynance of storytelling and I went down to one of these migrant hotel protests and what I saw was a load of these, what do they call them, citizen journalists, which basically means like a guy with a phone who's like filming himself and uploading it on normally Facebook or they upload it everywhere probably. And that creates a narrative. It creates a narrative, you know, and I think what you have now, which I think, you know, you're doing a good job of trying your best to like feel and take advantage of is everybody knows, well, not everybody, because I'll go and rest this politics and these guys don't know yet.

39:07Zack Polanski: and I said this on that show the man on the street knows status quo is done this is not going to continue it won't because and it's not going to improve living standards in fact living standards will fall further and more and more and more of your just average man or woman on the street are going to say like no more this we need we demand change so then what you have I think actually we're at this amazingly interesting time in history which is you have like the death of an idea this is we are at the end of the end of history You know, this idea that history ended in the 90s and we figured it out.

39:39Zack Polanski: And that's over now. Now, the idea on the street, the general consensus on the street is that politicians are idiots. Economists are idiots. They don't know what's going on and life will get worse. That is like increasingly the norm, right? I hear it all the time. So then what you have then is a vacuum. Because what has been the accepted status quo and still is the accepted status quo from these kind of elite economists and politicians has become totally valueless. so then suddenly there's a vacuum for ideas and really then whoever has the loudest idea in that new vacuum will win the day and i think it's pretty obvious what the loudest idea is at the moment not just in this country but across the world which is you know farage reform the far right the alt-right what you want to call them they're entering that vacuum yeah and at the moment the sensor and to a degree the left you know present company accepted have not really been able to craft a story of we recognize the country is broken and we are gonna offer you a way out of it so there's this absence of a story what you have really is the center has like is is like stubborn if you need to accept its story is dead which means the center is dead until it accepts that the right has a story and the left is there's a lot of they haven't really figured themselves out yet you know i mean and i think the story on which the left can win and you know i will continue to try to convince the center that the center can win on this as well is inequality it's inequality it's fixing a taxation system which is patently unfair where billionaires pay lower rates than cleaners you know i mean it's an obviously unfair tax system um but this you know and i'm trying to fill it and you're trying to fill it it's a massive opportunity.

41:27Zack Polanski: Because the truth is, you know, I think Farage looks like he's going to win the next election and they'll win it on 7 or 8 million votes. You know what I mean? There's 66 million people in this country and there's, I don't know, 45 million people who can vote and they'll win it on 7 or 8 million votes. And that is because there is just an absence of an alternative story and what an opportunity. And that's why, you know, I'm very glad to see you out there doing God knows how many interviews you've done in the last few weeks because you know and I know there'll be people out there that want Farage to win I don't think he's going to do anything I think he's going to make inequality worse I don't want him to win

42:07Gary Stevenson: but we need a new story we need a new story

42:10Zack Polanski: and you know I'm pushing one about inequality and I know you're pushing that as well so you know as long as we're both doing that we're pushing in the right direction

42:16Gary Stevenson: for sure in my first couple of weeks when I won someone told me I did something like 160 interviews national interviews and there was one comment I said that upset people which you know out of 160 interviews, I'm okay with.

42:25Zack Polanski: It's not a bad ratio.

42:26Gary Stevenson: And when I say upset people, I've said lots of things that upset the wrong people. I'm not bothered about that. But kind of people I would say are roughly aligned. And I said that it was to the iNewspaper that racism can come from poverty. And the journalist was like, well, that's an outrageous thing to say. And I quickly clarified. And I said, that does not mean if you're working class, you're racist. It doesn't mean that at all. And clearly, if you're a multimillionaire and billionaire, you can absolutely be racist. We're seeing that with Elon Musk, with Donald Trump. But I think the conditions of poverty create resentment that the ruling class, multimillionaires and billionaires, are able to stir up around the working class.

43:03Gary Stevenson: They go, they're your problem, not inequality. And it's a huge distraction. That feels quite clear to me and it feels like quite a clear story. But I've noticed people have really struggled with the idea.

43:14Zack Polanski: Yeah, I mean, any student of history will be able to tell you, especially a student of economics and politics, will tell you that at times of prolonged economic weakness and falling living standards. The far right has grown. And let's not pretend that racism and terrible racist atrocities have not happened in the history of the world. You know, I think we're sitting here at a time. You know, it's... Listen, I'm not saying that Farage or Donald Trump are racist or fascists. I'm not saying that. I am, but you don't just say that. When these guys win... You know, I did a video. It's still at this point last week.

43:47Zack Polanski: I don't know when this is going out. I did my video on Sunday, came out. And I said, Farage will win the election. He might not, but I think he probably will. And then when he comes in and he stops the votes, stops asylum seekers, we both know that it's not going to fix the economic problem. So what does he do then? The obvious thing is he says, okay, well, now we need to stop legal migration. And then they stop legal migration. Which is already starting that story. Yeah, probably only going to make things worse. And then when that happens, he's going to say, well, we need to stop recent migration.

44:15Zack Polanski: And he's going to start deporting recent migrants. I said that on Sunday. Faraj came out the next day. The next day. He said they're going to stop recent. So I worry where this goes, but I also think, and this is the thing I've been struggling with a lot, you know, I know I get kind of branded as left by a lot of the media. I don't consider myself to be on the left. I consider myself to be a very, very good economist who has recognised a specific problem about inequality. And obviously I go to the political left for support because these are the guys who are supposed to care about inequality, basically.

44:47Zack Polanski: but I I've always tried my best to make my channel welcoming to everyone and as somebody from a working class background I want it to be accessible to working class people you know as somebody who who has I can still consider myself in many cases in many ways a working class man I want this to be accessible to working class men I want these people who want for Ajit Wins to know that I do what I do for them not specifically for them not only for them but I'm a rich person I don't need to do what I do I do what I do because I'm worried about the future of this country ordinary people's kids and grandkids living standards and I think it's very important and you know you can say what you think about this that people like me people like you make sure that those guys who are out there who maybe want reform to win want Farage to win that we do what we do to protect their future living standards

45:41Gary Stevenson: I couldn't agree more

45:41Zack Polanski: they're the people

45:42Gary Stevenson: we need to care about they are different to Kate Hopkins Tommy Robinson the grifters that are on stage

45:46Zack Polanski: you need to separate the leaders absolutely you know in the end of the day if you are not here to protect the future of the British people as a politician why are you here

45:55Gary Stevenson: yeah yeah for sure and also just you know in the most cynical way basic maths reform are leading the polls right now so if you don't think you can convince those people and they're not in your kind of group of people that you can reach out to and go I've got an idea that's more convincing than that awful idea you've already lost I'm really aware you've said a few times in this podcast Nigel Farage is going to win or I think Nigel Farage And I guess part of it is your role. It's not your role to be an activist or someone who changes the course of history, although I'd argue you are doing. In some ways, you're an observer commenting on what's going on.

46:26Gary Stevenson: What do we need to do to activate you, though? Because when I hear that, every time you've said it, it spikes a little bit harder each time.

46:33Zack Polanski: Listen, I'll be honest. I have a plan here. And I'm very pleased to see you doing what you're doing. Because, you know, I don't know what you think about this, or viewers think about this. I want you to become very popular so that I can move Labour into a less suicidal position. Sure. That's what I want. And look, I like you better than the vast majority of Labour MPs that I've met. You know, nothing wrong with the ones, especially the leadership had nothing to do with me. So if you can displace Labour, you know, more power to you. Right. And as soon as you are the guy who I think gives me the best chances of getting wealth taxes, then you're the guy.

47:12Gary Stevenson: But I also, so what I think is interesting is when Kemi Badenot became leader of the Conservative Party, Keir Starmer tweeted to congratulate her. Nigel Farage wins as an MP. Keir Starmer crosses the chamber to shake his hand. I become leader. Within 30 seconds, they put out an attack message on their social media. The BBC, I didn't know this was happening live. They told me what had happened and said, how do you feel about that? And my honest response, I'm so pleased this was my response on live TV, was I'm delighted because it shows that rattle. Well, it's good PR to be honest. Keir Starmer hating you is probably a good PR.

47:42Zack Polanski: But it also tells them that they know

47:43Gary Stevenson: that a powerful narrative now has an alternative and they can't presume that those people are just going to vote Labour and they can do what they want. They're instantly going, this is a threat, this is an attack, and we're going to have to stop it quickly. And I think they're going to realise they can't stop it. And I don't mean that's because I'm all powerful, the Green Party is all powerful. I think the idea is all powerful and it's not had a space to be communicated effectively. And the more it gets communicated by you, by me, by lots of people, but particularly communities, I think when people know they've got an alternative the Labour Party will have to shift.

48:14Gary Stevenson: They'll have to shift or they'll have to die.

48:15Zack Polanski: You know, I think they'll get a new leader next year. That new leader has to have some message, some pitch on the economy. You know, I would say this, if people can say that I'm wrong, I think that their best chance of not losing the next election is to move more aggressively towards being anti-inequality and fairer taxation and better taxation of the rich. What are their alternatives?

48:34Gary Stevenson: You know,

48:37Zack Polanski: number one alternative is to kind of do more of the same, which is this sensible, sensible, we're going to try and borrow and spend stuff. it's not going to work. And I think we'll probably see that because they'll probably go with that. It's not going to work. Number two is they go hard on the migration stuff, which basically means that they're using their platform to aggressively raise the salience of their number one competitor's platform. So I honestly think if Labour want to win the next... OK, people sound biased, maybe I am. But at the end of the day, I'm a forecaster. I can't see them winning on anything other than shifting towards inequality.

49:10Zack Polanski: For two reasons. Number one, I don't think anything else works from like a commerce PR perspective. And number two, just nothing else works from an economic perspective. If they try to do anything else, they will constantly end up in this situation where they cannot afford the things they want to do. I will tell you the same things I would tell Labour. I would tell reform the same things. If you don't act on inequality, living standards will fall. It's as simple as that. It's as simple as that. And, you know, things like the welfare state will become unaffordable. You know, I've said that to you.

49:40Zack Polanski: I would say that to them. if they would listen. But at the moment, you're the guy pushing it. So more power to you.

49:45Gary Stevenson: Thank you. Every time I chat to you, I feel fired up and ready to go at the end. I'm glad to hear it. Just finally, if someone's watching this and they go, because you've said about you want people to tell their own stories. Yeah. But I guess there's a structural inequality, right? That we have the time and the privilege to be able to go, we've got microphones and cameras and we can tell stories. What does someone watching this who doesn't have like equipment, doesn't have technology, like how do they start? What's the way for them to start telling? Well, I mean, look,

50:08Zack Polanski: if you want to be making videos, you can make videos and you can put them out. And if they're good, then if you'd like at me or they're at you, I'm sure we'll try our best to like share them wherever we can. But like the only reason my channel is popular is because it gets shared by regular people. You know what I mean? And I'm trying essentially an experiment. And, you know, you look like you're trying to go the same way, which is that, look, we don't expect or we don't need the support of the big newspapers or the big TV stations. What we're going to do is we're going to go straight to the people via social media.

50:38Gary Stevenson: we're going to go to

50:39Zack Polanski: Bivar social media and we're going to hope that the people pick us up and the people share us so what I would say is like watch the videos try and understand it share that in your communities share that in your communities like people like me you know and you can say whether you feel the same my strategy is I call it the Murdoch strategy but I'm not a billionaire but my plan is to use what I have what Murdoch doesn't have which is the support of the public and the fact that I'm genuinely trying to protect the public from poverty you know So you don't need, listen, if you want to make videos, fantastic.

51:11Zack Polanski: Get out there. There's so many people out there that are like doing videos based on the stuff that I'm doing. There's too many to name. Like I really respect everyone who's doing that work. You don't have to make videos. You are, listen, we are a situation now where the future is going to be decided. You know, this is the end of the end of history. The old ideas about economics are failing. They're dead on their ass. Nobody believes them. We will decide here and now in the next five, 10 years, which way this country goes, which way Western society goes. And that will be decided by what the people choose.

51:42Zack Polanski: It will, at the end of the day, listen, the reason why they pay so much money and why they slander people like me and people like you is because they know the public opinion matters. That's why they do it. So if you are there in the public, you don't need to spend all your time and money on this. Watch the videos, understand the videos, share the message in your communities. That is enough to make us win.

52:01Gary Stevenson: Well, power to you, Gary. Thanks for everything you're doing. I really, really appreciate it.

52:07Are they? Houston