How Much Is Trump Costing The UK? | Tessa Khan

0:00If you were to spell out to someone why what's happening in Iran is affecting our energy bills, what's going on? Yeah, so in short, I mean, this is also the second time this has happened in four years, right? That we've kind of been at the mercy of these international oil and gas markets because of a dictator somewhere or an autocrat that's decided to go to war. Sometimes people say that I don't talk about the climate crisis enough, which is wild because the climate crisis is an existential crisis, both to our planet, both to our environment and to every single policy that anyone cares about. And so one of the responses to that is to say, that's ridiculous.

0:37The climate crisis isn't everything, whether it's housing, education, health, our transport system, how we heat our homes. That's all the climate crisis. But the other response to it is sometimes to do an episode of this podcast, which is about the climate crisis. Uplift are an amazing organisation that talk a lot about tackling the climate crisis and they just transition. To explain exactly what that means, here's their chief executive, Tessa Khan. So I've wanted to have a conversation with you for ages around oil and gas and the climate crisis. and it feels like in that short amount of time, everything's kicked off and the conversation is even more urgent than it would have been anyway.

1:17Just before we get into all of that, just by way of introducing you, you're the chief executive of Uplift. What does Uplift do? Yeah, thanks so much, Zach. I'm really delighted to be on and albeit not in circumstances, I would say, that are ideal by any measure. So Uplift is a research and campaigning organisation that I founded a few years ago to focus really on accelerating the UK's transition away from oil and gas with a focus on the North Sea as you know the UK is a major oil and gas producing country but also equally focused on making sure that that transition is a just one so it's one that works for the workforce for the communities with ties to the industry and so on.

1:57So we'll get on for just transition in a minute if we start off with with what's happening at a random the fact there are energy prices that are spiking. It looks like bills for households could go up from between 300 to 500 pounds. There's a lot of worrying things being spoken about in the news. If you were to spell out to someone why what's happening in Iran is affecting our energy bills, what's going on? Yeah. So in short, I mean, this is also the second time this has happened in four years, right? That we've kind of been at the mercy of these international oil and gas markets because of a dictator somewhere or an autocrat that's decided to go to war or to wage an illegal war.

2:35So in short, the UK is pretty dependent on oil and gas within its energy mix. But the price that we pay for those commodities are set by international markets. And that's because while we produce oil and gas via the North Sea, we don't produce enough of it to make a difference to how much we end up paying for it. And also because those commodities are owned by private companies, they get to trade those and sell those on international markets that we're ultimately tied to. And so what happened in 2022, which is what we're seeing again happening now, is a squeeze on gas in 2022. This time around, it's both gas and oil as the Strait of Hormuz, for example, has shut down.

3:18Major LNG facilities have been destroyed in the Gulf. And as a result, there has been a huge spike in the price of oil and gas recently. And unfortunately, I mean, we're really in pretty uncharted territory in terms of both, you know, the war itself, the fact that it's there is no pretext for the war beyond whatever the Trump administration and the Israeli government decide on the day. But also, you know, if you listen to the real experts, people like the head of the International Energy Agency, you know, they say that this could be worse than the two 1970s oil crises plus the Russian gas crisis combined in terms of its impact on energy markets.

3:56So it's a really, I would say, scary time for so many reasons. And I think there's two main questions I have for you. The second one comes to the first in the moment is how do we stop these things happening in the future? What does energy security look like? But I suppose the more immediate question is what do we do about the fact we're in uncharted territory? Well, I think the first thing that we've got to do is look after people. You know, like people are still reeling from the shock of what happened in 2022 when their household energy bills went through the roof because of the spike in gas prices.

4:24So in the UK, we're dealing with millions of households that are in energy debt that can't afford to pay their energy bills. You know, and fuel poverty has increased significantly. that has so many implications, you know, from kids not being able to do their homework to people with health conditions, you know, suffering even worse circumstances because they can't turn the heating on, for example. So the priority has got to be looking after people and making sure that that support goes to the people who need it the most. And then we've got to address the root cause of this, because as I said, this is the second time this has happened in four years.

4:56And if you think about the broader economic implications of having a fossil fuel based energy system, you know, half of the recessions that the UK has experienced since the 1970s have been because of fossil fuel price shocks. Like we have got to get off fossil fuels. We've got to learn the lessons that we seem to have to keep learning time after time. And we've got to transition away to the technologies and the energy that we actually have in abundance here in the UK that will protect us from this insane fossil fuel roller coaster that will, you know, protect households, but also will ultimately help us address the climate crisis as well, which is, You know, if you don't like volatility and food prices and energy prices, like wait until you see what climate change has got in store.

5:36There's a big conversation happening in the country right now about the coupling of gas and energy prices and how it artificially inflates the market. Yeah. Are you able to explain to people, like spell that out, what's going on there? Yeah. So basically, the way that the UK's electricity market works is, A, diabolically complicated, but B, it's structured in a way that the most kind of expensive unit of electricity is what sets the price of electricity. And currently, that is gas. And so even though increasingly renewable energies make up a significant portion of our electricity mix, so at the moment it's about 50%, but, you know, there have been days, I think even in the last week, where that's been 60 % or more, gas still sets the price that we pay.

6:22And so, you know, that much cheaper decarbonised energy just isn't reflected in people's household electricity bills. And so, yeah, there are various proposals for how you break the link between those two things, which is becoming increasingly urgent given gas prices are going kind of ballistic once again. And how urgent do you think this makes the conversation about nationalisation? Or is that too complicated to do in the short term? I mean, nationalisation of energy companies, I think, you know, is something that should be considered because of all of the ways in which the profiteering that happens in moments like this mean that, again, it just doesn't work in the public interest, the energy system.

7:04But it is something that would take time and a fair bit of money. And so I think there are things that the government can do in the shorter term to make sure that, you know, people are shielded from some of the worst impacts of this crisis. I've seen some outrageous things online recently about the fact that it almost feels bad to repeat the myth, but fossil fuels being cheaper than renewable energy. Is there ever any truth to that or is it just straight up propaganda? It is straight up propaganda. You know, the price of renewable energy has dropped significantly in the last decade. And so, you know, what's known as the levelised cost of electricity that's generated by solar and renewables.

7:42So taking into account all of the different expenditure that's involved in generating electricity like that is cheaper than any new build gas power, for example. And it's especially the case now when the price of gas has spiked by something like 70 percent. And again, you know, when we talk about how much these things cost, the thing about fossil fuels is we never price in all of the bad stuff that fossil fuels are responsible for that aren't reflected in the price. And climate change is, I think, a very good example of that. Not to mention the ways in which we subsidise fossil fuel production as well in this country.

8:14That's so right. I feel like the cost of inaction rarely gets talked about as opposed to the cost of action as well. You talked about a just transition earlier. What would that look like? It's not something we've done before in this country, notoriously. And I think that's partly why this is a really important thing to get right and to be sort of sensitive to the concerns that people have about it. And I think the example most people think about is coal mining and the way that that was, shall we say, phased out in this country, which just has left kind of social and economic scars that have lasted for decades in the aftermath.

8:47So what we think a fair transition for the North Sea oil and gas workforce and the industries connected to that would look like is really, it's about both process and outcome. So it's making sure that the right people are at the table when we're talking about what their futures look like. So not leaving it to oil and gas companies or governments alone to decide what, you know, it's not just about money, it's also about what they mean for a community's identity, you know, and all of the other services and sectors that it supports. So you've got to have trade unions at the table, you know, you've got to make sure that the workforce is represented.

9:20We think community organisations are also really important to represent and local governments, you know, this isn't just about kind of super top down approach to decision making. And then we think that, you know, when you're talking about the oil and gas workforce, we've got to make sure that there aren't just alternative jobs for them to go into and the great news. And, you know, again, this is why I think there is such a huge opportunity in this country to set an example globally for how we can do it right. But like we're in this amazing position in the UK, where actually we have an offshore wind industry and we have an oil and gas workforce where 90 % of them have skills that are transferable into renewables.

9:57This is a transition that is waiting to happen, but we, A, have to make sure that the jobs are there, that they're good jobs, that they're unionised, that they offer the same kinds of conditions that the oil and gas industry has, and then that there are pathways to get into them, that there's the retraining and the reskilling support that's needed so people aren't left to their own devices and to their own expenses to actually make that transition. And, you know, all of this requires planning and industrial policy, which again is just something that I think hasn't been done particularly well in this country.

10:30And the writing has been on the wall for the North Sea oil and gas industry and workforce for decades now. You know, production peaked in the late 90s and jobs have been declining since then. We can get ahead of this. And as I said, if you do, you could set an example for how these sorts of industrial transitions can be done right. And that's an obviously segue to talking about Rose Bank. What is Rose Bank and why is it pretty much the worst decision that this government can make? Yeah, so yeah, it kind of is like a bit of a summary of everything that could be wrong with the UK energy policy. So Rose Bank is the largest undeveloped oil field in the UK.

11:04Developing Rose Bank would involve extracting about 500 million barrels of oil. And there's a little bit of gas in there as well. But if you burn all of that, you generate the same volume of carbon emissions that are created by the 28 poorest countries in the world in a year or 56 coal-fired power stations running for a year, like choose your metric. It's just, it's really bad, you know, from a climate perspective when we know, you know, the science is so clear that we can't have any new oil and gas production if we're going to stay within kind of safe climate limits. So it's bad from a climate perspective.

11:36It's also oil that is going to be largely exported. So 80 % of the oil that we produce here in the UK ends up being traded internationally. And we may buy it back, but it doesn't put us at any advantage compared to any other consumer. So from an energy security perspective, it's got nothing to offer. From an energy affordability perspective, it's not bringing our bills down. It doesn't have anything to offer. The other thing to say is that the development of Rosebank involves giving really significant tax breaks to the companies, Equinor and Shell, who are acting through this kind of joint venture called Adjura, giving them billions of pounds in tax breaks.

12:12And some analysis that WWF Norway has done shows that it could lead, if the oil price goes back down to a kind of average level, to a net tax loss for the Treasury because of the rebates that we end up paying out to them. And they walk away with billions of pounds. And then the final, I mean, it's not even the final thing, but I will limit myself to just one more thing about Rosebank, which is that one of the companies involved is called Ithaca Energy. And its parent company is an Israeli energy company called Delic Group. And they have been specifically identified by the UN as operating in illegal settlements in the West Bank.

12:51And so basically the profits that go to Ithaca from Rosebank's development will end up being passed on to a company that's operating in breach of international law in the occupied territories. So that's, you know, it's something for everyone. And you said finally, but I want to line you up with one more thing. There's something about the geology as well of the Rosebank oil field, right, that means it doesn't even make sense in terms of most of the oil and gas has been extracted already. Well, that's the case for the North Sea Basin more broadly. Rosebank is one of, yeah, but, you know, it is getting harder, more expensive to find oil and gas that hasn't already been recovered.

13:30And this is because the North Sea is such a mature basin. But it does involve drilling quite deep. It involves sticking a gas pipeline through a marine protected area as well, close to the Shetland Islands. It's from a local environmental perspective also, I think, a very bad idea. It feels like you can choose your terrible reason. Exactly. And so the government are about to make a decision. We say about to. We don't know it's been going on for a while now, right? That's right. Yeah. So the last government approved Rosebank in 2024 and then Uplift and Greenpeace litigated that decision successfully.

14:05The principal reason we were successful is because in approving Rosebank, the government didn't take into account its climate impacts in doing an environmental assessment, which is kind of astonishing given it's like the obvious environmental impact. So now the government has to remake a decision from scratch, taking into account those impacts. And yeah, that's what we're waiting on at the moment. And can I ask you about tiebacks? Maybe something that people won't have heard of before. Yeah, of course. This is in relation to the UK government's position that was in the Labour Party's manifesto, which was that they weren't going to issue a new licence to explore for new oil and gas fields.

14:40And so in basically translating that position into policy, now that they're in government, they have stuck with that position and said that they are also going to introduce what are called tiebacks, which are kind of an allowance for licenses to be issued where you can kind of associate a new resource with an existing resource. So you're kind of tying back from that is the simplest way to. So it's kind of limited in the proximity of a new resource that would be developed. In our estimation, that would lead to something like 40 million additional barrels of oil being developed, which, you know, isn't great.

15:19But, you know, Rosebank on its own is a single field that's 500 million barrels. You know, just to kind of put that into perspective, like, I think if you're really worried about new oil and gas, I mean, we absolutely can't have new exploration licenses and we absolutely cannot have these massive new fields being approved. Now, I've taken you down an awful route here that feels very dystopian. We're talking about the climate crisis and about what's happening in Iran and about the Rosebank oil field. Where's the hope in all of this? Like, what is the alternative? Well, I mean, the hope is that we know exactly what to do and how to do it.

15:49And it's all upside, you know, like it's genuinely this is not like in moments like this, when we're so vulnerable, you know, ordinary people are so vulnerable because of a war that's being waged by deeply irrational actors, you know, thousands of miles away. Like this is a way of protecting ourselves from their actions. It is a way of ensuring that we have clean energy. it's also a way of creating industries and jobs and livelihoods and agency in our communities you know for decades to come like as I said the UK is in this amazing position where we have one of the biggest offshore wind markets in the world because the North Sea yes it's it's you know been a pretty productive oil and gas basin for ages those days are now behind it but what it is now is like one of the best wind resources it's shallow and windy it's like ideal conditions really for the UK to just be, as I said, an example for how you can create those resources in a way that creates local prosperity and jobs.

16:52And, you know, one of the things that we really need to do is make sure that we are manufacturing offshore wind turbines and all of the kit that goes with it here. That's how we'll create actually long-term jobs. You know, if we just import those from China or Germany, which is the approach that we've been taking up until now, you just don't end up with the job creation that can rival what's happened in oil and gas. But as I said, we know how to do this. There are signs that we are finally starting to do it. And I think there is an amazing story that we could tell in a future that we could have if we get that right.

17:24And I really love that because it leans into a story about economic sovereignty too, which I think you've got to be careful that it's not Britain first. We still want to trade with other countries. But actually, if we started to manufacture everything we need to tackle the climate crisis and have clean energy, then that goes to jobs of the future too. Yeah. And the part that I think is more difficult with that, and it's totally okay to not have an answer to this, is about the critical minerals that we need for the solar panels, for instance. So we are often linked to problematic practices with the Uyghurs, for instance.

17:49Yeah. And what can we do about that? I mean, you know, I started my career as a human rights lawyer and I like, you know, I think a just transition isn't just something that happens in one country. You know, it has to have a global dimension or it's not just. And, you know, I mean, yeah, I think that's such a clear moral imperative for how we make this transition fair and sustainable in so many ways. So I think, I mean, there are a couple of things. The first is, you know, we need to have labour standards and environmental standards for the next generation of minerals and resources that we extract that reflect the standards that we want to see here in the UK.

18:25I think the UK government has taken some steps to introducing, you know, at least addressing the presence of slave labour and solar supply chains, for example. But yeah, there needs to be a lot of attention on that. The other thing I would say, though, is that the thing about a lot of the critical minerals that we need for our renewable supply chain is that they can be recycled. And so the idea is that ultimately you should be shifting towards circularity where there is a point at which, you know, you get to kind of 98 % recycling rates for batteries. Well, actually, technologically, it's already possible to do that and to just keep the life cycle of these technologies going and going.

19:06So you don't have to keep digging stuff out of the ground, you know, putting people at risk. And that's another good news story compared to, for example, you know, the alternative, which is the status quo, which we can't forget about, which is digging stuff out of the ground, also in horrendous conditions, creating loads of local and global environmental damage and burning it once and it's gone forever. And then you have to do it again the next day, you know. And that's like, just in terms of the sheer amount of volume of stuff that you have to shift to run a fossil fuel based economy compared to one based on clean technology, there is a huge difference.

19:41And as I said, there is a pathway to recycling and to potentially circularity that exists for the latter that doesn't exist for fossil fuels. That's a brilliant answer. It's one of my favourite things in this podcast sometimes when I ask someone a question, I get asked all the time. I just want to interrogate a phrase you used about five minutes ago, which was, this is a way to give agency to our communities. Because I've long had a theory that one of the reasons why we're seeing the creeping rise of the far right and fascism and frankly, the right and the centre when they're doing bad things is because people feel or they accurately know that politics is done to them rather than with them.

20:12What's the opportunity here to empower communities? I mean, I couldn't agree with that analysis more. And I think that that is being reinforced by, you know, industrial closures that are happening across the country as well. You know, and a lot of that is fossil fuel related. You know, as I said, there have been jobs declining around the North Sea for years, but also we're seeing oil refineries close, steelworks close, you know, and people do feel like they desperately want control back, that they, you know, need to blame someone. I mean, yeah, it's basically everything you said about how that contributes to kind of support for the populist rise.

20:49And I think the one big opportunity beyond, you know, a just transition where you really do give people a stake in their futures and what an industrial transition looks like. I think the other thing is that renewable energy assets and generation are an opportunity for people to own, you know, local wind farms or own local renewable energy assets and make money from them, feel like they're doing something good for their community, like feel a real sense of pride in doing something that's kind of part of a national project, but also bringing down your bills, creating jobs, like ensuring that you've got clean air to breathe.

21:28all of those things are connected to a cleaner energy system. And I think if we enable people to do more community ownership, you know, and municipal ownership of those assets, then that is incredibly empowering for people. And, you know, we've got to make sure that they're supported so that they're not trying to do everything everybody has to do in their daily life and then also figure out how to, you know, take equity in a solar project or whatever. But, you know, there are examples of that already happening up and down the country and it generating, for example, in Scottish communities, tens of millions of pounds that get reinvested in assets that the community really values.

22:04You know, that is like an amazing good news story and one that people can feel like they are responsible for. I love it. And zooming out a little bit, I'm always cautious of repeating rights narratives, but also sometimes it's good just to put them forward to see how you respond. And people say we can do all of this, but what's the point when China emitting a lot more emissions. And immediately I want to say that China are doing an incredible amount on renewables, but I will let you take that. Well, no, you're right, Zach. I mean, China, you know, installed kind of more solar capacity in recent years than, you know, the rest of the world combined, and they are responsible for prices coming down and everything else.

22:39So yes, but they are also still building some coal capacity and obviously burning fossil fuels. You know, look, what I would say, and this is genuinely also based on my experience going to international climate summits and kind of engaging with governments from all over the world, but also I would say particularly in the global south, is that A, the UK has a moral responsibility to move first and fastest in terms of decarbonisation. The Industrial Revolution started here. Coal-fired power started here. The UK, despite its size, is still in the top 10 historical emitters if you look at the concentration of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere.

23:16Like we have a responsibility to take this seriously and to show some leadership. But the other thing is that what the UK does on the global stage still has a massively outsized impact, you know, and that is a legacy of all kinds of bad stuff that the UK has done and the way that it plays that leadership role globally. But, you know, I think if a country that has the skills base, the resources, the talent, the wealth that the UK does cannot get on top of this and accelerate its transition, then why would anyone else try, you know, and especially when there's so much upside for the UK. And, you know, and I know, as I said, when Rishi Sunak's government really took a step back from the climate agenda, and they tried and failed their sort of, you know, anti net zero pre-election strategy, that had an immediate impact on the climate talks that happened.

24:10Delegations from other countries were like, well, if the UK is not bothering, why should we, with our significantly fewer resources and our lack of the industrial legacy that the UK has that means it can do this transition, why would we bother? Why do you think this has become so politicised? Because it genuinely confuses me. Very often, and I can fall into this trap too, we can get into a place where we think actually people don't want decarbonisation. We hear it so much. But actually, the polling shows over and over again. The vast majority of people want to not see the effects of the climate crisis.

24:40Yeah. I mean, it is such a great question because there is this huge split between where the public is now and where elite or political opinion is. And it's infuriating because public opinion, there is a strong majority support for net zero by 2050. People are incredibly worried about the impacts of climate change, which they are seeing in their communities today, you know, whether that's flooding or, you know, unprecedented wildfires in Scotland and, you know, water scarcity, it's everywhere. And the fact that, you know, the media and kind of political bubble has decided that actually people aren't concerned about climate change is totally disconnected from where people are.

25:25But it's dangerous because the more people hear that people don't care about climate change. You know, that sort of social proof is really important. And that's why it's so important that if you do care about it, you should talk about it and let other people know that you care about it. But yeah, it is totally disconnected. And I mean, you know, like you can sound conspiratorial when you start to say this stuff, but obviously there is a right-wing media ecosystem. There is also fossil fuel lobbying that happens. You know, all of these vested interests who have what they think is a lot to lose, albeit a habitable planet is on the cart.

26:04So maybe that's good for all of us. But, you know, they think the incumbent system works for them and they will fight like hell to stop this transition from happening. And so they're the ones who are seeding these narratives, you know, insisting that this is where the public is and it's just not true. I reflect a lot on Extinction Rebellion, which I was involved with in 2018 and 2019. And one of the first principles of Extinction Rebellion was tell the truth. And then I think one of the second ones was decarbonise and it was very, very, very fast. How do we balance this kind of need for urgent action?

26:34Because politics won't negotiate with science, for science will win out. But also we know if we say things, but there's not a plan to make it happen, that's also equally irresponsible. How do we balance that? Yeah, look, I mean, you know, I am very attached to the science. You know, I think anyone who works on climate change, it has to like, you know, I call it kind of staring into the sun. Like the science is so stark about how quickly we need to move if we're going to avoid the worst impacts of climate change at this point. But yeah, so that's one really powerful imperative. I think that the challenge is that, you know, we were just talking about public support for climate action.

27:14The one thing that that is contingent on is a sense that it's fair. Right. And I think that is where we have got to find some way of both moving as fast as we can, but doing it in a way that maintains the public mandate and support that we need. Otherwise, you end up with, you know, what the right is trying to confect at the moment, which is some massive backlash that then also opens the way for them to get into power. And so I think there are ways of being ambitious about being ambitious about fiscal policy, industrial policy, where you can do both. But I think it's really important that, you know, when we talk about accelerating the transition, that we do it in a way that, you know, prioritises vulnerable people, that gives people the support that they need, that makes the people with the broadest shoulders, you know, carry the biggest burden and so on.

28:02Like, I do believe that that's possible. Absolutely. And it's in line, it's a kind of follow up question. There's mitigation of emissions, which is to reduce our emissions and there's climate adaptation, which is to deal with the fact that floods and wildfires are coming. Yeah. how do we make sure that we've got an appropriate focus on adaptation, but without people, particularly hyper-catalysts, going, oh, it's fine, we don't need to mitigate our emissions, we're just going to build higher flood defence? Yeah, I mean, I think that is always the concern, isn't it, when the conversation just becomes about adaptation.

28:29But I think we are at this point in this country where, like the impacts of climate change, you know, thousands of homes and businesses being flooded repeatedly, you know, what were once in a decade floods are now annual. There are towns like Tanbury Wells where people are struggling to get insurance, you know, for their properties because of how frequently they're flooded. Like we're there, you know, it's arrived. So I think there absolutely has to be, and the Climate Change Committee says this all the time, like we are so far behind where we should be in terms of supporting resilience in communities.

29:02And also, you know, to take a kind of holistic view of what resilience means, you know, it's not just about flood defences, it's about making sure that communities have the broader support and infrastructure that they need to adapt to these new circumstances. And I just think, you know, communities have been gutted in so many different ways. Like it does just require much more ambitious thinking. But that we, you know, you can only adapt your way out of this so far. You know, like there is only so far a flood defence is going to take you. And that's why mitigation has always got to be part of the equation.

29:37And And I think we need to, whenever we talk about adaptation, try to make sure the conversation is also about why we're here. And the moment you ask why, you get to the answer, which is largely fossil fuels, the burning of which are responsible for the majority of greenhouse gas emissions. And we have to be addressing that with just as much attention and resource as we are putting towards communities. And we know some of those conversations are often more contentious than others. I think the most obvious being aviation and diets, other things that often trigger particularly the right. I think one of the antidotes to this is citizens' assemblies.

30:10I'm always struck by, I think they held some bigger citizens' assemblies and then they have the youth citizen assembly speak then to the adult citizen assembly who then got more radical and bold in their thinking, having spoken to the young people. What is the role, I guess, of including everyone in this? There are things that are going to have to happen in the next few decades and coming years that are about kind of the choices that we make in our own lives. And I think government has a responsibility to incentivise the right choices. You know, as I said, the way that things are priced currently, you know, whether that's fossil fuels or, you know, arguably even some kinds of food, they don't reflect the true cost of those things, the true impact that they have on our environment or on our health and so on.

30:53And so, yeah, I think there are all sorts of ways that governments should be thinking about, again, protecting people who are vulnerable economically, but trying to nudge people who can afford to do the right thing. And then, yeah, beyond that, I think it absolutely, it's sort of about making people feel like they are part of the policy that ends up being decided upon. And, you know, whether that's Citizens Assembly or other kinds of participatory democracy, I mean, it just seems like so obvious that if what you're asking people to do is go on a journey that is ultimately in their interest, in our broader interest, you know, you should trust that they will get there themselves.

31:33and make the right choice. And so let them, you know, like put them in the driving seat. And I also think there are so many ways in which that would solve some of our bigger political problems. And you mentioned that you've been to lots of international climate summits earlier on. And I feel like every year COP comes around the UN summit on climate crisis and the media kind of get interested in climate, I was going to say, for about a week a year, but it's now about 24 hours. And I find myself conflicted every single year between saying, you know, it's the only game in town. We do need to engage with these climate crisis talks or not even climate crisis in the way that they're seeing them, climate change talks.

32:09And actually, this just isn't going to work. And at one point, are we going to say we need to have a completely alternate kind of system? I have sort of two views. One is that those big international summits are the only forum that vulnerable countries currently have for confronting richer, more responsible countries responsible for the climate crisis and trying to hold them accountable, you know, in face to face, like one to one, kind of one vote each, so to speak. And that's so important. And if you think that, you know, climate, the climate crisis is a matter of global justice, then I have a feeling you'd end up designing something that looks a bit like an international climate conference to enable those conversations to happen.

32:52And that said, so I think, you know, they produce some kind of valuable outcomes, especially around, yeah, those questions of like who pays loss and damage, you know, accountability for damage that's already been incurred. And on the other hand, and I say this as well as an international lawyer, like I think ultimately accountability happens at home, you know, and that national governments, especially in a moment when international law, the weight of those norms is kind of dissolving before our eyes, right? Like look at the wars that are being waged. so I think that you know if what you're trying to do is persuade a government to do the right thing and all these changes ultimately have to happen in our national economies in our societies in our communities then you have got to have a plan for doing that at home and going to a climate summit as you say for one week a year is just not the way to do it like you have to have a strategy for making yourself heard holding the government accountable campaigning like just being on it 24 four, seven, the 51 other weeks of the year.

33:55And that all has to happen here at home. I really liked your point about we'd have to design it. I actually saw a brilliant play last year called Kyoto, which is amazing. And it gave me an additional respect actually for the process where a little bit of me is like, we can't throw the baby without the bathwater just because Trump is trying to be like a bull in a China shop. To be fair, it's not just Trump. It's lots of leaders, including actually at times the UK as well. And actually there is an importance to the history of that happening. With your international lawyer hat on, we're at this moment where Trump and Netanyahu have engaged in this illegal and unpopular war.

34:29And it feels to me that Keir Starmer, whilst I'm pleased that he's not explicitly joined, I still have questions around so-called defensive capabilities of using Fairfield and Diego Garcia. It's too big a question to ask her, I guess, but I can't find another way to phrase it. Like, what do we do about international law? Because it just feels like we keep worrying that the law of the jungle will be what takes over. But it feels like in many ways we're already there. It is a great question that I think keeps a lot of international lawyers up at night, you know, because it's like it's a system that, well, you know, I think it's important to acknowledge that in many ways it's been a facade for many years.

35:06You know, it's just the flagrancy of the breaches that are currently happening. Like, you know, at least with, you know, the war in Iraq in 2003, there was an attempt to get a UN resolution backing it and attempts to find some legal basis for it. That is no longer happening at all, right? I mean, there's not even a political or economic basis, let alone a legal basis for the war in Iran. I think you cannot have an international system that works without some norms and some constraints. And they extend across so many different areas, like climate change is one of them. And I think it's a good example to say that the Paris Agreement set a target of 1.5 degrees of warming, which for all of the ways in which that system is otherwise flawed, that has been quite a useful North Star for all of us, not least of all the most vulnerable countries who fought tooth and nail to have that protected.

36:00And you can go to your court or your government and insist that that's observed and that's helpful. There are laws, the Geneva Conventions, that constrain how you can fight a war And they still are reflected in army handbooks. And, you know, like there is value in that infrastructure and in those norms. I think, yeah, we're at a kind of pretty existential moment for that whole post-Second World War settlement and system. And I think that's why it is so imperative that we model what a good international citizen looks like, you know, in terms of human rights, humanitarian law. climate change, all of those areas that ultimately have implications for other countries, as well as our own citizens.

36:51And do you have hope for the future? Yeah, of course I do. I wouldn't get out of bed in the morning. And I mean, I know you've said this before and others have said this, but hope isn't something you receive passively. You have to go out and fight for it. And I feel really lucky to be part of a movement that people look at the UK and as I said, they see opportunity and they see a path forward where things get better. And actually we can have a future that, as I said, involves people feeling agency over their lives, like local prosperity, kind of being on a pathway where we have a livable planet.

37:30Like all of that is still within reach. And I also in, you know, the polling that you were talking about and where the public is when you put them in a citizen assembly, like people are actually with you, you know, and in a way that is kind of beyond politics. It's sort of about values that speak to something much broader. And I feel so much common ground still exists in this country around that. And so I, you know, I mean, yeah, I do unequivocally, I would say, feel hope. Now, if there was a government minister here, they would probably say, well, first of all, we've got great British energy and also we're working on carbon capture technology, sustainable aviation fuel, and lots of other kind of magic technologies.

38:10Yeah. How do we respond to, I was about to say I feel conflicted, I don't feel that conflicted, we need to just reduce our emissions and make sure we have a just transition. Yep. But there is some truth, right, that investing in technology is not a bad thing in and of itself, it's just we can't rely on that technology. Yeah, that's exactly right. We have kind of left this all so late in terms of how fast we should have been transitioning away from fossil fuels that most models show that there's some role for some of those technologies. But they are pretty marginal. Like they do not do the heavy lifting in kind of getting us to where we need to be.

38:43And the worry is that the focus on those technologies distracts from the one thing that we know absolutely will work, that we can afford, that will create jobs, and that is, you know, renewable energy at scale. Like that's the obvious answer. And so if we're kind of going hell for leather on that and also looking at some of the other stuff to address the bits that are really hard to address otherwise of the system, then that's fine. I just think there is some kind of moral hazard. And also, I would say false promise, especially around jobs in technologies like CCS, that we're just not going to be able to realise.

39:16Thank you so much. This has been phenomenal. I often talk about hope is not, we can't have hope alone. It's got to have hope in the plan. And out of everything you say, there's just such a clear plan about where we're going. If people wanted to get involved with knowing more about Uplift or about you, what can they do to get involved with your campaigns? Well, I would say the first priority is stopping Rosebank. There is a website, stoprosebank.org.uk. Does what it says on the text. Exactly. Not difficult to remember. And if you go there, you can find ways to get involved, including, I would say, most importantly, currently chatting to your MPs about Rosebank and why it's a terrible idea because the government is due to make a decision.

39:51We are currently being drowned out by a bunch of fossil fuel lobbyists. And, you know, what you say absolutely does matter. And we know it's made a difference in the past. Yeah, it's such a phenomenally important time. Thank you so much. It's been such a pleasure. Thank you, Zach.