How Rising Inequality Impacted The Trans Experience | Shon Faye | Zack Polanski

0:00Often when I'm talking about inequality on the media, the number one tactic they try and distract is so-called culture wars. And so often trans people get found at the centre of that conversation without wanting to be. It also feels really important to make sure we're listening to trans people and to find out how that feels for them and what they want allies to be doing. So today I'm joined by the brilliant author and activist, Sian Faye.

0:26Hello, Zach. Chris Packham here. I hear you've signed up to EcoTalk. That's very bold of you. Brilliant. and if you don't mind me saying very bright of you too if your audience is half as smart as you then they'll sign up too at ecotalk.co.uk

0:50I guess I'm asking for advice and I want to caveat this by saying I know asking for advice from one trans person is one trans person's opinion so you're not speaking on behalf of the entire community but an argument I've been developing recently is that when you look at polling about how much people care about trans issues and I'm very much putting that in inverted commas it's often less than one percent yes and it doesn't define whether that one percent are people who are trans themselves who are saying I want you to care about us or people who are vehemently anti-trans and their whole kind of identity is around making life for marginalized groups even more difficult and the reason why I talk about that is because I want to focus things on the cost of living which we know disproportionately affects trans people more than other people who aren't from a marginalised community.

1:33What I worry about, though, is that I don't want trans people to hear that as because this is a quote unquote niche issue, we're not going to spend time on it. And so how do you feel like politicians or anyone, in fact, that's advocating or allying with trans people can find ways to talk about inequality and show solidarity to trans people, but without centring trans people the entire time? Well, I mean, I guess the first thing is that I sort of think no one, no trans people, I mean, again, I'm speaking as an individual, but there's almost already kind of a myth baked in that trans people want ourselves to be the centre.

2:09I mean, as a trans woman, I'm kind of shocked at the disproportionate level of coverage in the mainstream media, political rhetoric, and focus on trans people in this country. And, you know, I literally am trans. And I'm like, why are we being discussed so much? I'm not this interested in trans issues and I wrote a book on it. So there is a sort of this idea that trans people, sort of the centrality of trans issues in perhaps political media at the moment, both in the US and the UK, is actually not something necessarily trans people want. So I don't know necessarily that there's a problem with the fact that trans people aren't central.

2:47We are less than 1 % of the population. I think on the other hand, what I'm wary of, which I have heard of being on the left for quite a long time is this sort of, you know, what I tried to do in the transgender issues, you know, primarily I am, I would consider myself politically a socialist feminist. So I sort of think all gender based oppression, you know, in part works its way through capitalism. And so what I've always tried to argue, as you just said, was that the marginalization of trans people actually just flags up lots of inequalities that persist throughout society and trans people aren't the only group affected by that and so i think it's fine to actually talk about trans people with regards to wealth inequality and it's also a question about who you're talking to and when so i'm thinking about zohran mamdani right who um who has just won and i think if you were if you're trans and i have plenty of trans friends in new york who canvassed for him it was clear from the beginning what his politics are you know he was at a rally for trans youth earlier this year when he was polling single digits.

3:55So to be physically at trans community events, particularly trans youth, given how they're discussed and dismissed in the US and here, and how controversial that issue is tagged specifically around trans youth and their access to healthcare. You know, trans people definitely see that. So that kind of solidarity is clear. Now, as for how you talk about it and don't let yourself get derailed, I have some thoughts. I think one of the things I've been thinking about, and it might be food for thought, is, you know, in this country, the sort of anti-trans movement here, it's a very small number of people, but they have a disproportionate level of voice.

4:37And a lot of them, at least rhetorically, appeal to kind of feminist concern, women's concern. And I think I have spent a lot of time thinking about where, how does that movement tap into the anxieties of a particular kind of person, particular kind of woman about anxieties, about resources for women and a feeling of scarcity. And then obviously finding trans people as a scapegoat for that. And I think one of the things about wealth inequality and talking about it, you're talking about it. And I know that there are people like Gary Stevenson talking about it. But wealth inequality is highly gendered and austerity disproportionately affected women.

5:18Women are overrepresented in the public sector. I think according to Women's Aid, you know, like, for example, something like Women's Refuges, I think it's now something like last year Women's Aid said 47 % of women were refused a refuge space because the refuge or the service did not have appropriate provision for them. It didn't have capacity. I mean, I could go on. The cuts to non-statutory services at local authority level disproportionately affects women. The two-child benefit cap, like single mothers and disabled women in particular, are some of the most stigmatized. And I'm the child of a single mother.

5:59She was raising three children with no second income in the 90s. And it was tough then, but I think now it's extremely tough for single mothers. And so what I would say to you is that whilst talking about wealth inequality, it's very important as well to talk about how it is shaped and structured by, there's no sort of class politics and identity politics. They shape and structure one another. And I think the Green Party, if you want to kind of get ahead of transphobic rhetoric on this issue, it's also worth being proactive around the way in which wealth inequality affects women and to speak to non-trans, cisgender women directly about some of those concerns.

6:44because in that way it's like killing two birds with one stone because obviously it's just inherently good to be talking about the fact that actually there is a sort of gendered aspect to wealth inequality in this country and the cost of living and who it affects and how it disempowers them and how it can put the most marginalised women at like the mercy of, I don't know, like all sorts of dynamics both in their sort of domestic lives but also like reliance on a benefit system. talking about that but then you also have the effect of heading off the ability of kind of bad faith actors to be like the green party doesn't care about women and to keep centering trans issues as the most important face because that's what sorry i feel like i'm going off on one but like like to me when i saw that supreme court ruling earlier this year what really shocked me is that really some of those campaigners believe this is the most important issue affecting women in the UK whether I can use a toilet or not and it just isn't.

7:45It really isn't and I think wealth inequality is the biggest thing affecting women and it affects women in particular ways. It doesn't mean it doesn't affect men. It just is that I think it's really important to be able to speak to different communities. And feel free to go off. That's what this podcast is all about. People just going off. We talked about the anti-trans movement or you mentioned briefly in this country. There's been lots of research, particularly in America, around how the gender critical movement has had massive ties with the fossil fuel industry. Is there similar research around the UK as well?

8:18I mean, I don't know about its ties necessarily to the fossil fuel industry. I think there are huge ties between the American anti-trans Christian right movement and the UK gender critical movement. And they might see themselves as quite separate because, as I said here it seems to be more of a secular critique and it would identify itself as concerned with women's rights but actually rhetorically I think if you see some of the kind of tactics that are used there's a lot of osmosis. I was in Waterloo recently at the time of the largest far-right march in British history the Tommy Robinson, is it Save the Kingdom?

8:56I can't remember what it was Unite the Kingdom. Yeah, Unite the Kingdom. And I noticed, because I had to walk through it, unfortunately, the sort of signs, and I noticed how much osmosis there was between the American far right and the UK far right, because it was a few days after the Charlie Kirk assassination. And, you know, people were holding signs about Charlie Kirk, like British. They may not even consider themselves far right activists, but they were people on that march. And I was thinking, did you even know who Charlie Kirk was a week ago? And I think that there is a huge amount of osmosis, partly because of funding and money.

9:32I also think because of the fact that we live in a sort of globalized internet disinformation culture, it's very easy for there to be crossover between the two. And certainly UK gender critical arguments and ideas have been used in amicus briefs in the US. so I think there is definitely I think basically what I would say to that is if there are ties to the fossil fuel industry in the US to an anti-trans movement then ultimately there's going to be a tie to the way that it shows up in this country as well That's really well put and so I'm talking a little bit there about how we call people out in terms of their fossil fuel links or any links particularly to the American right how do we call people in?

10:16Is that necessary? You know what I've thought and again I'm not a politician But I am a political writer and one that tries to be a persuasive writer. And, you know, I have the benefit of writing books which are long form. And so particularly my first book, it was like an attempt to, you know, what I would say is that there is, there's a huge kind of middle section. You know, there are people that are hugely radicalized to far right beliefs, including anti-trans beliefs, for example, or extreme misogyny or extreme racism. But actually the people that are the ones where I think energy needs to be directed are the people who are the sort of the people that are at risk of being recruited before they are to certain ideologies.

11:01And I think there is a conversation to be had about how conversations with those people are conducted, because I do basically think there's a certain degree to which confronting those people, I think, only entrenches them and actually creates a sort of a defensiveness that's actually quite dangerous in terms of their ongoing radicalization. I think the problem we all have, any progressives, leftists, is about exactly how we call people in and what infrastructure is there to do that.

11:37Because, you know, we don't have deep roots in communities to the same extent we did. You know, our trade union movement is quite, is not what it once was. Let's just put it that way that a lot of and that is one of the things that I think the far right in this country has has been able to do silently is to is to reach deeper into local communities and to galvanize people with a sense of energy and hope. I think when we talk about calling people in and the studies to show this to the people are more likely to listen to people that they already feel some kind of affinity with. So you kind of coming in, you know, any of us coming in and being like, that's the wrong thing to do and think and say just doesn't tend to work.

12:17And I think, you know, a lot a lot of cross pollination and kind of broader political movements is is kind of what we're aiming for. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, totally. Yeah. And I suppose I keep asking for advice, but politicians or anyone who's looking to advocate can call in, but without appeasing or without stepping over a line over what I guess was straight into what your book was about. The accepting it's an issue, accepting a debate means you're already on the kind of terms of the discussion that I imagine isn't acceptable to most trans people and understandably so. But how do we find a language or a conversation in which to discuss these things?

12:59Yeah, I mean, one thing that I think, like, you know, I, you know, I guess one thing I have been impressed by, and it actually shows how things have deteriorated, you know, it's not to flatter you. But I think I have been at least impressed with the way that when you have been asked, say, about trans issues in the media, it's, it shows me how my, over time, it's kind of like, what's that metaphor about frogs boiling or whatever, that I've become accustomed. The Overton window has so shifted that to have someone essentially say, no, I actually do think trans women are women for all intents and purposes without any kind of caveat actually feels quite, it shouldn't, but it feels quite radical at this point.

13:44And I'm thinking, for example, when Piers Morgan asked you about that. And I think it's really important, actually, because I also think caveats and qualifications. One, I obviously think they let down trans communities. And trans communities are very, very used to being let down by politicians. I mean, look at how Keir Starmer has behaved with regards to all the pledges he signed. West Streeting as well. Yeah, I mean, West Streeting, despicable person. But with Starmer, you know, I mean, just, yeah, just on that, because I think it's probably worth talking about. It's a good case study on what not to do.

14:27I do almost think it is actually worse to claim to ally yourself with a marginalised group and then to go back on that than to have never done it in the first place. But also just on the political front, you know, like with Keir Starmer, I can remember when he made a jibe at Rishi Sunak in parliament because Rishi Sunak made a joke about him not knowing what a woman is. And he said, we have the mother of Brianna Jai, who was a trans teenager who was murdered in broad daylight in 2023. We have her mother here. And it's a disgrace that you would say something like that. And now we're at a point where actually, despite him saying that, he actually seems to be in a position where he would approve that if someone like Brianna Jai were alive, she would actually be subject to exclusion across pretty much all of public life.

15:21as like, you know, which is what is being heavily pushed for by bodies like the Equality and Human Rights Commission now with the complete, the government is completely ceded to that ground. And so there's a huge inconsistency there. And not only is that like a kind of complete dereliction of duty and moral cowardice, but also I actually really do believe that the electorate doesn't respect moral cowardice. And I think the British electorate really can sense it, which is why he polls so badly. And so in a way, I think that like strength and integrity actually are appealing in and of themselves, including like on trans issues.

16:06Do you know what I mean? It's like why someone like Mitt Lynch is popular with the public, right? It's because actually, and you have done this on trans issues when you have been questioned on it, is to just be quite uncompromising. And I would recommend that you continue to do that and don't change strategy. Because whilst it might mean that you get a kind of deluge of very, like, organised comments on Instagram from various gender critical and right wing forums, I actually think as a long term strategy, it seems like a pretty solid one to be unwavering in principles. I suppose the thing I want to reply is it's not in question for me to be uncompromising.

16:43And the thing that I feel quite emotional listening to you is the amount of trans people as I go around the country. It happens maybe once a week. a trans person comes up to me very earnestly and beautifully says I just want to thank you for what you're doing with trans people and I feel guilty every time because I just think, you know, I'm a Jewish gay man I can't imagine going to someone, a politician and saying thank you for allowing me to be gay, thank you for allowing me to be Jewish, that just wouldn't be in question and so it's something I struggle with when as beautiful as it is for someone to thank you I always want to both acknowledge that gratitude and not be rude about it and go don't thank me But also I go, have we got a position where you feel like you need to thank me for doing like the most basic thing, which is just recognising your right to exist?

17:25Yeah, totally. I mean, I do think that that's one of the things that I struggle with, frankly, as a as a trans person that I think I recognise it. But almost as a sort of trans person I have because of the work I've done, you know, I have a larger platform than a lot of trans people in this country do. and more of a voice in a way, which in itself is a form of privilege that I'm dealing with, too, because I actually have the same thing from other trans people. And obviously, I'm even more like, well, you know, I'm also doing it because it affects me, but I understand it. And sometimes you sort of slip out of perhaps what has become customary for trans people and realise how often, you know, for someone like me, I am asking people, people who are not trans who follow me, who engage with my work to sign a petition to write to their MP, to fill out a consultation and actually to be a trans person.

18:16One of the ways that I think we are degraded and treated as second class citizens is the fact that we are almost always having to litigate our existence in some way. For example, at the moment, there is an attempt to make the Hampstead Ladies Pond. It's not my thing. I prefer swimming in chlorinated water. I'll say that. But I know it's very important to some people, including some trans women. There's a concerted effort to try and make that, despite the fact that members who are responsible for kind of the oversight of running that space have made it very clear they want to be trans inclusive.

18:49There's an attempt to use case law in order to compel them to exclude trans women. It's been going on for years. Yeah, it has. And so it's, you know, even though it's not my thing, it's a good, just a good litmus test. you know there was a there's now a consultation um that the the um that the city of london corporation have put out to members of the public and i had a look at it and it was like all these proposals and one of the proposals was well how about we have some sessions that are uh inclusive and then and then maybe there are some times of the day where you know yeah well it's like i mean literally you know a friend and I trans woman friend and I were joking about is there going to be a moment where they like blow the whistle and it's like you have to get out but you know in some ways when I read that I was jolted because I was like that is even the fact that that is now kind of considered a legitimate thing to propose to the public we're already degraded by the even mere suggestion that we should be we're already being treated in a very different way and I suppose I recognise it's necessary, unfortunately, and pretty much every marginalised group.

20:00I mean, you say, oh, you know, I wouldn't want to say to people, thank you for allowing me to be gay. But probably there are, you know, there have been times in history throughout the 80s and 90s where, like, you know, really intense public campaigning. I know Michael Cashman, who was heavily involved with the founding of organisations like Stonewall and the Anti-Section 28 campaign. and the equal age of consent debate that always happened in the 90s. I think people forget about that a lot because when they compare trans rights and gay rights, they're always sort of using gay marriage as the big fight that gay people want.

20:38In fact, like the equal age of consent, I always am interested in that debate because a lot of the same rhetoric was used about why are adult campaigners campaigning for teenagers to be able to have sex. This is a group, you know, and I just, it's helpful to me to remind myself that actually where we're at now with maybe LGB rights for non-trans people, you know, was itself quite hard one. There is a broader point here about the way in which to be a trans person, unfortunately, does seem to be that we have to, because we're such a tiny minority, constantly ask for help. And I do think that that takes its toll.

21:23I do think it's inherently degrading. And I sort of understand why a lot of trans people are suspicious. A lot of trans people will be suspicious of the Greens. They will be suspicious of any kind of parliamentary politician because they've been so badly let down. And yeah, I think building trust, you know, realistically is going to probably take time and repeated consistency. And it's increasingly a difficult legal environment as well in terms of some of the laws or verdicts have been passed by that make it very difficult for political parties or indeed movements where they're constantly under threat of being sued, for instance.

22:01And that kind of, I think it's called lawfare, has made that very difficult as well, where as much as you want to stand unconditionally with the trans community and I'd like to think I do and do continue to do so, you also have to constantly protect an organisation as well. And I think that becomes a very difficult conversation. Yeah, this is quite controversial. But because I was obviously just inherently as a trans woman who's done some campaigning and a left winger. I mean, I think less so now. But I feel like in the 2010s, I was constantly accused of being anti-free speech. And I actually think I'm quite pro-free speech.

22:34And their arguments often don't stack up. Yeah, yeah, in particular. And I will say that I think I'm pretty pro-free speech. And that's, you know, really come to the fore with the kind of ironically, I think we're in a time where actually the Labour government is one of the most authoritarian governments about free speech, especially with regards to Palestine. and yeah, a little bit controversially, the idea that gender critical beliefs should be holding them, should be protected. I sort of broadly agree with in the sense that I think if someone has a religious belief and it may be very different to my non-LGBTQ plus beliefs, they're entitled to have the religious belief they want to have.

23:17The difference is in the workplace, right? Like I don't think, if someone holds gender critical beliefs, I don't really, I mean, just on a personal note, I don't really care whether you think I'm a woman or not. However, if we're like having to, if I'm in a workplace with you or using a service, if I'm going to be misgendered, harassed, harassed in person or online, then yeah, that's a problem. And what I have to be honest, my experience, and it's not all people that maybe hold any kind of belief that they would describe as gender critical. But my experience is that quite often that spills over into personalised harassment of trans people and trans figures within political parties, within media.

23:59and so I'm tempted to sort of say well yeah allow people to hold their beliefs and make it clear what the boundaries are about harassment and watchers and these people usually overstep them and and that's their decision too and then if if it's if it's appropriate you know then then I guess there are policies and procedures around conduct and I don't know maybe that maybe some trans people would really disagree with me on that. But I think of all of the kind of ideological battles, the kind of whether you have the right to believe that I am not a woman or not, I'm not that hugely interested. I'm kind of more interested in whether or not I get to participate in democracy, participate in party political activity, if that's what I choose to do, or if any trans person chooses to do, that I get to attend a party conference feeling safe from harassment, that I get to go to work and work with dignity and say and you know have my colleagues refer to me in the way that they would everyone else how they want to be referred to um feels pretty basic yeah it does but um my my sort of strong belief is that what is being pushed for is less legal rights but they are kind of a vanguard for ultimately um what what a lot of gender critical campaigners would like is a cultural shift where trans people are just able to be denigrated and disrespected and harassed routinely.

25:25They would disagree with that, I'm sure. But I believe that's kind of what the aim is. And it's kind of why I do the work I do because increasingly I get quite sick of it at times. But I think it's really, really important for younger generations of trans people to see that it's possible to exist with dignity and kind of a degree of public life in media in the UK, even in these times. Yeah, I think that's huge. I think about things like Heartstopper, where I think, again, as a gay man, I go, what a difference that would have made to me to be young. And I think, is it Yasmin Finney? Yes. Like, what a difference that must make to a trans young person to see themselves represented on screen or part of themselves represented on screen.

26:11Totally. I mean, I think huge difference. You know, I grew up under Section 28. And in the early 2000s, I mean, it was like the homophobia I experienced at school was rough enough. And, you know, the question of like trans people and being even have awareness that that's what I was, it was just non-existent. And I think it's really tough. I don't want to sort of like romanticize what it's like for trans young people now. I think it's really tough in ways that in some ways, in some ways it's different. In some ways it's worse than it was when I was younger. In some ways it's maybe a little bit better in terms of visibility and self-understanding.

26:46but um but yeah i think it's about you know ultimately for me it's less about um me being concerned with making sure that absolutely every person in society conforms to my world view and more about the fact that society needs to be a place where actually dignity for trans people is as a norm because it's not at the moment in public discourse. I mean, when every question is about trans women's hypothetical genital status, you know, that's degrading when it's like, do you have to get out of the ladies pond at 3pm? That's degrading. And yeah, I think it's important for politicians, for trans people who maybe have public platforms like me, to, I think, already kind of create, to act as if we already live in that society and then to build it from there.

27:47Totally. I was on another TV show the other day where the presenter, for the third time I've been in there for four months, asked me about trans issues, quote unquote. And then once I answered the question and got back to inequality, they said, why do you keep talking about trans rights? And I was like, this is my third time on the show in the last few months and every single time you have brought this for a discussion. when I've not proactively brought this up, you keep asking me about it. Yeah. And it's just quite blatant, I think, that kind of media agenda to keep distracting with this conversation with a group of people who actually...

28:20We used to use the phrase live and let live, right? Yeah. And I try not to use that phrase because it's a bit like tolerance. It sounds a bit like just let me be. But I think on the most basic level, if you're even asking for the most kind of basic conditions, that feels like even that's being taken away. The other thing I would say as well is that, But, you know, the broader point, I think, is that trans people are, for want of a better term, like canaries in the coal mine, not just trans people. I think migrants are as well. And I think what trans people, for people, I guess, listening to this, who maybe are just like, I don't see why this issue, you know, yeah, maybe they live and let live.

28:58You know, I'm not anti-trans people, but I just sort of don't get why this is taking up so much space. I think one of the reasons that it does is because, you know, it's a trans people are a litmus test for what we can get away with in terms of, for example, stripping people of rights, you know. And I think, yeah, I think for migrants and trans people in particular, if you look at like our entire human rights legislative framework and the European Convention on Human Rights, you know, that's obviously intended to come under attack should reform win. And I think there is an attempt to, when you can demonize certain kind of weak groups that are either because they're small or because they lack legal rights and visibility like migrants, what you're doing is kind of creating consensus and consent for essentially a world in which human rights aren't inalienable.

30:03whether it's like and we have been going that way for a while i mean to me this is all linked there's a link between um shamima begum losing losing the right to be a citizen of anywhere to the fact that um you know i have a i personally have a gender recognition certificate that's supposed to grant me you know the status of a woman um and now there's a concerted effort in the wake of the supreme court ruling it's not what the supreme court ruling itself said but by public bodies like the Equality and Human Rights Commission to basically make that the rights that I was supposed to have acquired by playing the system and doing the right thing, to make them redundant, to make them basically ineffectual.

30:47And I think that's a really worrying thing for everyone. I think it's a worrying thing for gay people. I think it's a worrying thing for women. I think it's a worrying thing for people who are not perhaps asylum seekers. But, for example, like people who all it takes is you to fall in love with someone that isn't a British citizen. And suddenly immigration law can really affect your whole life. so for me you know trans people are also yeah like a like a one of the kind of um bellwethers about what sort of society we want to live in and what sort of rights and dignity we're going to afford people can i pick up on the point you're making about the supreme court and the ehrc as well i was gonna say do you have thoughts i imagine you have lots of thoughts um yes i do i guess when the supreme court judgment was handed down i wasn't surprised I originally trained as a lawyer.

31:44I don't claim to be a huge legal expert. But one thing I know from having studied law and having become a lawyer myself is that I am aware the judiciary often looks at law in quite a clinical way without view to the political environment in which the law operates. And so I think the Supreme Court justices were looking at what was the intention of legislators when they wrote the Equality Act 2010. And they sort of saw it as a somewhat self-contained question. the problem though and when that judgment was handed down obviously my heart sank I was quite gutted because I knew that that judgment was entering into quite a febrile political atmosphere where it was going to be used uh for the most it to be pushed for the most exclusionary position whatsoever again we've we've I've mentioned Keir Starmer a few times what I what I would say to anyone listening is what you will keep hearing perhaps from government is well that's the law They've decided that's the law.

32:42Actually, we live with an unwritten constitution that says the parliament has supremacy. In fact, parliament can actually override the Supreme Court anytime it wants to. If they were so minded to, Labour have a majority, they could amend either the Equality Act 2010 or the Gender Recognition Act 2004 to make it clear that when a person acquires a new gender, they acquire it for the purposes of the Equality Act. So the fact that they're not is not because their hands are tied, but because they do not want to. I think I would obviously like to see some kind of policy proposal around that from various parties seeking election to Parliament, hint, hint.

33:20but I think it's less just about the mechanics of the law it's also about the context in which it entered into and it's not just the Supreme Court ruling obviously I think with that it's just also unworkable I think in terms of trans people's Article 8 rights to privacy in a family life it's just insane if I produced a birth certificate I have a female birth certificate But the idea that my medical history is supposed to be kind of probed into every time I want to access a space is just clearly a violation of my human rights, but also completely unworkable in many ways. But I think the point is, is it's not supposed to be workable.

34:03It's supposed to actually be more about serving the ideology of a very small number of people who have decided for a variety of reasons that they disagree with the idea there is such a thing as a trans person. And fundamentally, they are pissed off that I won't just detransition and live as a man, which is never going to happen. And so they can't actually affect that change. What they can try and do, though, is make society as hostile to trans people as possible in an attempt to reduce. And some of them do talk about this reducing the numbers, controlling the numbers. So my reaction to the Supreme Court ruling is, one, I think it actually just represents cowardice on the part of the government.

34:46And also that I think it's less about that ruling itself and more about the way in which it's being interpreted. That ruling does not say that I must use a men's toilet. I mean, it's just that it was immediately the media and senior political figures, Bridget Phillipson and so on, were like basically sort of trailing that interpretation within days of the ruling. And the guidelines had to be withdrawn because they were totally misleading. Yeah, exactly. And of course, there'll be legal challenges to it, but it also just creates fear and anxiety and minority stress in a group. You know, and the other thing, you know, to talk about, I guess I would be remiss of me to not talk about is trans health care, you know, because, again, the conversation is so led by what the anti-trans agenda is, which is about spaces, single sex spaces and provision.

35:41and trans healthcare is not very sexy it's not something that gets discussed outside of the trans community very much but it's again another example of like healthcare inequality affects so many people affects women, disabled people in this country obviously you mentioned Westreating it's not just about he's kind of a villain of the piece of trans healthcare right now he's kind of a villain of the piece with like NHS the dilapidation of NHS I was watching an Instagram reel yesterday about a GP that was a salary GP that was laid off by her practice. And it's like, and what, why are trained GPs being made redundant, you know, at this point when the NHS is on its knees?

36:20But trans people, like to just to give like a sort of example, I think in England now, the average wait time for across England to see a gender specialist would be 12 years when actually the NHS guidance is 18 weeks. I think in Scotland, it's actually closer to something like 48 years, according to a trans researcher called Claire Prosho. She did a lot of freedom information requests and has basically guessed that it's 12 years average wait time in England and I think over 40 years in Scotland. So trans healthcare in the UK is effectively privatised now for adults. And for trans young people, we have this bizarre state of affairs legally where emergency powers used under the Medicines Act 1968 have like created a blanket ban on any treatment for trans young people under the age of 18.

37:16I mean, the Medicines Act for context was passed in the wake of the thalidomide scandal. And given that these drugs are sometimes prescribed to children who aren't trans for conditions like precocious puberty, you know, it's such a, again, such a draconian and unusual intervention by government on the right of, you know, patients to be able to negotiate care with their doctors. Right. So again, you know, there is a kind of way in which I think the healthcare inequalities that trans people are experiencing and the kind of blanket policy where like I'm not saying that there shouldn't be research into the best methods of providing care to trans adults and young people.

37:58I'm not saying that there shouldn't be studies and research and ongoing monitoring. And I'm not saying that we shouldn't, you know, treat it as we would any other form of health care for minors and adults, especially as health care. But what I'm actually saying is that we're not. We're treating it in a very, very different way. And I think that's really tied to the way that trans people are pathologized.

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39:10and you've mentioned trans youth a couple of times uh what do trans youth need and how can we support well the first thing to say on that is you know is i think trans young people should be able to speak for themselves and can speak for themselves and I you know even as a trans adult right like I wouldn't claim to be able to speak for trans youth that said I obviously do have some contact with groups like trans kids deserve better which is like an activist group of trans teenagers that have done various occupations in direct action which I'm I feel it puts adults to shame trans adults I feel that we're not nearly mobilized enough compared to young people but maybe that's just the way of the world um but i think i think what i i would say is that it's a very difficult time for trans youth um because yeah access to support has been kind of cut off and then we're talking about like you know also the the the committed attempts to um exclude all mention of positive mention of trans people from relationship and sex education curricula in schools.

40:18And that's essentially like Section 28, which I imagine that both of us had direct experience of growing up under. It might not be one piece of legislation, but it's actually just done at the policy level. The other thing about trans youth is about this question of violence, because I think it's very easy for older LGBT people to sometimes be like, well, it was really hard in my day. But, you know, know, because there are TikTokers now and there's this and that, it's much easier for trans people these days. One of the things when I was researching the transgender issue that I think a lot of people don't realize about anti-LGBT hate crime, and I have a lot of issues with the use of hate crime policy and I'll explain why.

40:59Because I think when you look at the data, most anti-LGBT hate crime is perpetrated by young people and most of the victims are young people. And so I question about whether aggravated sentencing in the kind of criminal justice system is the appropriate way to deal with that. When in fact, education is actually where that should be targeted. But what we are seeing is like, you know, there's a huge spike in anti-trans hate crime, reported anti-trans hate crime, but also, you know, really terrible documented cases. Like a lot of people listening may have heard of about the murder of Brianna Jai, terrible case.

41:37But there was also a stabbing of a trans girl in Harrow in February 2024. And she survived, fortunately. But it was a really violent attack where she was lured by a group of boys and girls to a place and stabbed repeatedly. And, you know, the language that they used about her, the slurs that they used, the girl who was involved, a 20-year-old woman, young woman, who participated in the stabbing, you know, they found voice notes on her phone and it was describing this trans girl as an it, saying she's not a boy or a girl, she's an it or it's an it, you know, and I'm repeating that because it's like this sort of language, if you look at the way in which trans people are spoken about by adult anti-trans campaigners on social media, there's actually not that much of a discrepancy between the young people perpetrating the worst kind of violent acts and the rhetoric of adults.

42:36And so there's a huge issue there with violence against trans youth. And the other thing, you know, I think is really important to talk about is the mental health impact. I mean, young people and mental health is a huge conversation. Social media, radicalisation, it's a lot more complicated than just transphobia. But what I will say is that, you know, a lot of trans young people are really struggling, I think, with their mental health. My book came out in 2021. I did a talk, I did lots of talks on that book, but I did a talk at Eastbourne Library in April 2022. And this young trans woman came with her parents and they queued up and I signed her book.

43:18And her name was Alice Littman. And a month later, she took her own life. And And the coroner's inquest, you know, found that the long waiting time for her to be seen both by the youth gender service that as it existed at that time, it's now been abolished. And just a complete lack of support was a contributing factor in her death, the fact that she was waiting on a waiting list for so long. Unfortunately, she's not a sole case. And I mention it because her mother, Caroline, wrote a memoir. there was I was reading it and then there was this moment where I remembered she writes about coming to my talk I remember meeting Alice and you know she you know she that book predicted that book began with the death by suicide of a trans woman called Lucy Meadows in 2013 that's how my book opens and it's just so depressing that I essentially was going around meeting trans people and at least one trans person that came to hear me talk about these issues I was desperately trying to point out herself kind of was essentially victimized by them to a point where her mental health was deteriorated to that level where she felt she had no option but to take her own life I'm always a bit wary because I don't ever want it to sound like it's all doom and gloom for trans young people I think that there is a lot happening that's great in culture fashion literature obviously in the publishing sector in which I work I think it's really possible despite the odds to lead a really good life as a trans person in the UK right now but I wish it didn't take so much grit and I think it's really important to really highlight that trans young people are very very vulnerable and I remember when I was young you know I've dealt with a lot I've dealt with addiction I've dealt with really poor mental health.

45:12I've definitely experienced points in my life I didn't feel like my life was worth living and that's all too common a story and you shouldn't have to have grit and resilience to the extent that you perhaps do as a trans person. That's so well put. I actually met Alice's mother recently and then she's going to come on the podcast to, if I'm right, and understanding she was part of the gender critical movement or classed herself as gender critical and the book talks about that kind of journey but hopefully I can hear it from her own mouth. I suppose I want to insert in this point to both acknowledging what you're saying and also talk about a young cis woman who I know who has experienced transphobic abuse despite not even being trans because this is what the same culture does that you're absolutely talking about of adults and young people being horrific to each other and also starting to police what a woman's body should look like and what is an acceptable woman's body and this young woman gave me permission to share this story that a group of young teenagers just started to shout transphobic abuse at her and she felt physically intimidated by it and I think this is all the same part of the same culture.

46:19Absolutely well also what it creates what where we're leaning towards as a sort of society where actually rigid gender policing becomes you know even more intense I mean one of the sort of things that was always has always been thrown at me is oh because I have like long hair and today I'm wearing a dress or whatever it's oh you think that's what me you know that's what a woman is and it's like of course that's not what I think is the essence of what a woman is but actually there is a sort of question in which like I choose to present in a perhaps a more conventionally feminine way but I've never thought it's necessary to do so or that it ought to be or that it should be sort of socially prescribed that if you don't and you want to go to a women's toilet I obviously exist in the queer community i have friends of of all genders but also gender expression so people that are women identify as women were assigned female at birth but present in a very butch way and i think they actually at this point probably have even more anxiety right then then a lot well certainly more anxiety than i do because essentially it is their kind of um gender non-conformity that is under attack.

47:29So we're sort of bizarrely moving to a sort of position in society where to have the kind of at least the kind of illusion of safety, you're supposed to conform ever more. And you can sort of see this slippage too. I know you had tea or coffee on like, you can see this slippage too, that obviously, when you start creating rhetoric about how trans women are deviants, and that they're perverts and that they're suspect and whatever, you know, that slips quickly to drag queens and to gay men who do drag. And from there to, you know, anyone that presents in a feminine way that there's something a bit creepy about a man who identifies as a man who chooses to wear, say, a skirt or whatever.

48:10And, you know, quite quickly it becomes a pathologizing of anything that is gender nonconforming. and that's not at all any school of feminism I've ever read about or any kind of queer politics or gay politics has ever really argued for. I suppose finally I wanted to shout out what the trans podcast which I went on earlier this year that often have conversations around being trans and also the legalities that we were talking about in the Supreme Court judgment. If someone's watching this and they're not trans or they want to be a better ally or they want to find out more or support more? What would you want people to do?

48:49I mean, honestly, there's lots of things people could do. I suppose one thing that I think is always worth talking about is if you want to be a better ally, I think it's to kind of grow where you're planted. And what I mean by that is that all of us have, in our own local communities, in our own workplaces or whatever, a role to play. So, for example, if you're pro-trans and you're, I don't know, you're a parent at school, you know, it might be worth considering whether or not you want to become a governor at that school. If you want to, if party politics is what interests you and you want to get involved with that local level, you know, it's something like that, but being willing to be a voice for trans issues within that sphere.

49:32I think if it's within your workplace or whether it's that you run a business, It's that you're not going to be essentially pushed into the most exclusionary anti-trans position possible because of a misinformation campaign that's saying that you must exclude trans people because of a Supreme Court ruling about one piece of legislation. So I think it's a question of looking around and seeing maybe where you have this fear of influence and how you can be pro-trans within that sphere of influence. the other thing I think is it's really worth I mean frankly as well like donating to trans causes I mean uh there are my friend Danny St.

50:12James runs a charity for trans adults in the UK called Not Phase um there's a mutual aid fund called Five for Five you know these things are are attempting a grassroots level to support trans people through like an onslaught against their rights one thing that we haven't really talked about here is that you know it's much harder to be in employment to get a job to keep that job to not experience harassment in the workplace as a trans person and that obviously has a huge effect on uh yeah trans people's um well-being particularly when they might also have to be pursuing health care privately and so more than ever i think um the sort of outreach of charities like not phase but also the kind of direct mutual aid where it gives grants to trans people maybe trying to access certain gender affirming therapies can be really helpful so if you've got spare cash lying around definitely I'm going to say that but yeah I think I think beyond that it's about trying to I think all of us have a role to play like for example you know I'm I'm a trans person but I'm a I'm a white middle class trans person and you know in the last in the last I have to think about this too in the last couple of years I've been thinking, well, what am I doing to speak up for migrant rights?

51:28And like, where can I be involved in making sure that, you know, if I'm being given a platform to talk about this thing, that I make sure I'm talking about the way that Palestinians are dehumanized and the way that migrants and the lack of safe and legal routes here. Like, it's important that even if I might be here to talk about trans issues broadly, that I am willing to speak up on behalf of other groups. And I think all of us have a role to play. And that's why I would recommend anyone that has any kind of platform or influence to do as well as listening. I'm trying to get out of the habit of having brilliant guests and ending every podcast with trying to convince them to be an MP in the future.

52:06But I know I've said finally already. But the last thing I suppose I want to say is I'm aware of the privilege that I've got a podcast. I'm a party leader. and so I said finally but is there anything else with this platform you think this is what I want the audience to really hear it can be connected to anything really what you've argued so well about like making the case about whether you call it affordability like Mamdani in the US whether you call it the cost of living or wealth inequality or whatever is you know like I said earlier on I am a socialist feminist i.e. I believe that what I have much more in common as a trans woman in the single mum or to a working class man than I do to you know the the top half of the Sunday Times rich list right despite their power and influence like what I really want to impress on people is I am not trying to take space for anyone I think that really what has been driving anti-trans sentiment in this country is a scarcity mentality and a pessimism that things we have been slowly conditioned, particularly since 2010, to believe things can't get better.

53:15And I reject that completely. And I think that the scarcity mentality that has made people believe that trans people and trans women in particular are stealing something from other people is false. It needs to be rejected. We all know who is stealing from us. And we need to kind of direct Like that ire and that mobilization at the people that are really like having a laugh whilst it's in their interest for us to turn on one another. And so that's just really what I want to say is that like a lot of trans people are just trying to get by through a really rough time. And I actually think that there is enough resources in this country to mean that all of the questions and debates about space, resources and how we allocate those between different types of women, between different types of people are actually pretty easily resolved if we're not essentially being strangled of resources and hope by a ruling class.

54:14Sean Faye MP does have a good ring to it. I'm good, love and joy. thank you so much for coming on and speaking so fluently about all of these like really important issues and uh i hope you don't mind me saying that before you came on you said this feels really important right now and i think you've demonstrated the importance in a really articulate way so thank you for everything you do oh thank you for having me

54:40hello zach now listen i've had a text i know improbable but true from the beavers the butterflies the beetles and the badgers it's all sending you big love for signing up they're hoping