The British Housing System Is Broken | Kwajo Tweneboa

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1:20To find your next favorite pair of glasses, sunglasses, or contact lenses, or to locate your nearest Warby Parker store, head over to warbyparker.com. That's worbyparker.com. Housing is a huge issue. It's an issue outside of election time, but it becomes really present when politicians are asking for your vote. We know that housing has been an issue in this country for a long time, from the lack of social housing to rip off rents to the fact that it's almost impossible for many people to get on the housing market. We know people need safe, accessible and affordable homes. That's before we even get to the conversation about the outrageousness that goes on in far too many councils across this country, where people are living in damp and mouldy homes or even worse conditions.

2:05Who better then to chat to on the eve of the election than the amazing housing campaigner, Kwejo Twenoboa. With local elections tomorrow, housing is a huge issue. I'd say it's the issue of this local election campaign. So Kwejo, to have you in the studio feels like beyond relevant and important. and I've wanted you to come on for a long time. So I'm glad we've made it work in the schedule. I'm someone who works in politics. I do a lot around housing and I'm also online a lot. So I know exactly who you are. If someone is living under a rock or doesn't quite know what you do, and you came from, well, in fact, you want to tell your story.

2:38Who are you, Kway-J? Yeah, so I mean, I was sort of given the title of a housing campaigner, but about five or six years ago, I decided to talk about the subject and go around my estate and talk to people up and down the country who were quite frankly living in absolutely slum conditions and often paying extortionate rents, especially in the private rented sector, who was sick and tired of having to be subject to that. And I mean, it started with my own story as a child experiencing homelessness, living in social housing, growing up in social housing. And then when we finally did receive permanent social housing, and that was after being told we would have to move to Luton whilst I was studying for my A-levels and my younger sister was studying for her GCSEs, that accommodation was falling to bits too.

3:26And my dad became ill. He was diagnosed with stage one esophageal cancer that progressed quite rapidly over the space of a year. We were living with issues like mice, cockroaches, damp, mould, a bathroom which wasn't fit for use, a kitchen which wasn't fit for use. And his health very rapidly declined in and amongst those conditions. And we had been complaining about it. And then he passed away and things went from bad to worse. I remember on the day of his funeral, a ceiling collapsed directly above where his hospital bed was actually. And that was in February of the year. And no one actually came out until October of the year to take the ceiling down.

4:04And when they did, they didn't put one back up until the January the following year. And by that point, I had become absolutely sick and tired with having to beg for what I thought was a bare minimum. So I went to social media, I took pictures and videos of my accommodation, expected to receive loads of abuse about it, was blown away when that wasn't the case. And actually people were reaching out saying they're going through similar and have been for many, many years. And I decided to then reach out to news outlets, ITV, BBC, came down to film. And that's really where my journey began in terms of campaign and I then travelled the country going into homes, shaming landlords and providers into doing what they're contractually responsible for doing but weren't doing at the time and in a way sort of built a name through doing that.

4:52I mean you've done an incredible job and I know sometimes when guests come on here even some of our more famous people they're not used to sitting down with politicians but actually I know this is normal for you like you've sat with housing ministers I think even prime ministers right? Yes yes I mean it's it's weird I think the first sector of state that I met was Michael Gove under the Conservatives. I've met Keir Starmer. I've sat down with Angela Rayner. I've met housing ministers. I've met quite a few politicians now and had quite a few conversations. And it's across the political spectrum from all four corners of Westminster, really, because one thing that I was very clear about is regardless of my own political, personal political beliefs, this issue of housing is far beyond that.

5:36And what I care about is who is genuinely wanting and has a credible plan to address fixing it. Because what I'm clear about is housing is the biggest crisis we face as a country. And millions of people continue to suffer and that number continues to grow. And I really want to get into what that credible plan looks like in a moment and also get into the real issues of housing. I just want to talk about you for a few more moments and then I'll get on to the issue. you've had this amazing Chinese avoid using word journey but you have had this amazing journey and your social media videos are popping up constantly where you visited some of the worst conditions and you've sat down with people who must have told you the most horrific stories yeah I'm wondering how you've kind of emotionally protected yourself from that because it's a lot to take on that is a good question and for years I think I neglected that and it's weird even with my dad's story, you almost build a wall, an emotional wall, so you can continue going and speaking about it and pushing on their behalf.

6:38But it's very, very difficult. I mean, I have left homes absolutely depressed after hearing what it is I've heard or seeing what it is I've seen after going into those homes. And in some cases, it's completely worse than what me and my family were having to go through. And in some cases, there are very similar connections between what I see when I go into other people's homes and my own story, which is difficult. But I almost have to ignore that and just continue going. But when I do go and speak to someone who has terminal cancer, for example, having to go and wash in McDonald's or sleep on night buses, or kids who have become really, really unwell in their homes or having to wear bags over my shoes before I go into a property because I'm ankle deep in raw sewage.

7:31It of course is hard. It's difficult. But the reason I continue to do what I do is because I feel it for them. I understand what it feels like. I know what it's like. I constantly think of my dad when I'm going into these homes and I firmly believe in my heart that it is completely unacceptable. And therefore, I feel I have a duty and responsibility to call it out. And often when I do, it does get sorted. We have these local elections coming up. How much of this do you think is a local council level issue? How much of it is a national issue? I know the answer is it's both. But where do you think the main points of intervention are?

8:09It's both. The buck stops, I think, at number 10 and the prime minister. In terms of a local level, there is so much that they could and should be doing, which I don't believe that they are. And obviously there are those financial constraints and I will be the first to queue up and scream about the need to genuinely fund councils so that they can provide their services. Otherwise, the mass simply won't add up and people will suffer. But then again, with local authorities, and I talk about landlords, some of the local authorities are the worst landlords I have come across. I mean, in terms of systemically, the culture and stigma towards those that are homeless and the attitudes towards those that are homeless is completely rotten.

8:51And one thing I'll make clear is it costs absolutely zero pounds and zero pence to treat people with human decency and respect. But there have been many instances where I've seen in local government them being devoid of just showing the absolute basic towards people who are fundamentally suffering. but it's a systemic problem across the whole housing spectrum with landlords and fundamentally I think that needs to change and that change starts with the Prime Minister. I think you make such a good point about councils being strapped for cash it's been something I've been thinking about a lot that obviously I hope in a week or two's time that there'll be more green councils but actually some of the impossible situations they're going to be put in by a national government who are not funding services properly.

9:33We live in the sixth wealthiest economy in the world and they say there's no money left but it feels like there's lots of money for multi-millionaires and billionaires but not so money for our communities or to build council houses that being said because that feels like a slightly separate discussion to the housing one um you said that some local councils are terrible landlords what what do you think they need to do to be good landlords like what does best practice look like what does best practice look like i think there needs to be a complete overhaul when it comes to homelessness departments across local authorities especially London local authorities, it's almost as if they listen to homeless individuals just to simply respond, not to understand what it is that they're going through.

10:15Often what they will use is policy, policy, policy as an excuse of not doing what you believe a council would when it comes to providing assistance. And in some instances, it's almost as if these local authorities want to do absolutely everything to absolve themselves of any responsibility to help individuals than actually helping those individuals. For example, people fleeing domestic violence. I have dealt with countless cases in the past, but it's almost as if some of these local authorities make things so hard for those fleeing domestic violence. I understand why some of them consider returning back to their abusers and those homes because of how hard it's made for them.

10:59That's not right. Like I said, people with terminal illnesses having to sleep on night buses and wash in McDonald's instead of being provided with emergency accommodation. That's not right. I've had people with stage four brain cancer who's had to have their cancer treatment stopped by their oncologist because they're sleeping in their car and have nowhere to recover safely. That's not right. And I know those are extreme cases, but if that's happening, what does that say for everyone else that may go through it and we know homeless figures especially amongst kids is constantly climbing i think we're over 170 000 homeless kids in england um alone at the moment and that number will continue to grow what hope do they have yeah and those are just for cases you know about right there'll be even worse cases that never even reach your there is there is a massive cultural shift that needs to happen a genuine culture shift i'm so sick and tired of hearing lip service but not just lip service by local authorities, but also government too.

11:57That fundamentally needs to change. People aren't stupid. The people I meet up and down the country, on estates and beyond, they're not stupid. They can see what is happening. They also understand that every, let's say, five years, politicians are coming out and begging them for their votes and promising that they're going to sort housing, they're going to sort their situations, they're going to address the homelessness crisis, and then they get into power and that simply doesn't happen. And that's why they become so sick and tired of politics and see everyone as the same. And I think the stat is 10 % of MPs are landlords.

12:26I would say this is a huge part of the problem. I don't know what your diagnosis is with that. It's interesting, especially when we're talking about changes in regards to renters' rights. I remember thinking that when the Conservatives are in power and thinking surely this is a conflict of interest. And in terms of one of the number one tools to tackle the housing crisis, I would say it's to build more council housing or social housing. Why do you think that's not happening at the scale that it needs to happen at? Again, it comes down to stigma towards social housing. And that's been building since before I was even alive.

12:55We talk about the 1980s and the Thatcher government and how that really changed things. The introduction of the right to buy and therefore social housing becoming a scarce resource and therefore first and foremost prioritised for those most in need, which is completely understandable when that happens. But ultimately what that meant was we had a situation where social housing and council housing was looked down upon and not just that, the people living in council and social housing. And we also then had shows like Benefit Street. Many people remember that and some other shows, which sort of, to me, I would describe as poverty porn and made real fun out of the situations of working class individuals and built a name, a negative name for so many up and down the country.

13:35And I can tell you now, it couldn't be further from the truth compared to what I've seen when I've gone on to estates, when I've gone up and down the country, speaking to working class people and getting their views going into their homes. and it was very very sad to see but it was the underinvestment of council and social housing we saw under the conservatives that more social homes council housing was being knocked down and sold off than being built annually and then we wonder why we're in a situation where 1.3 million households not individuals households are stuck on council waiting lists up and down the country and we've got over 170 ,000 homeless kids waiting for social housing many of them will spend their entire childhoods living in emergency accommodation because we simply do not have enough social housing.

14:22And I do believe in order to tackle this crisis, we have to start with a bottom-up approach. And that fundamentally starts with building more council housing. The reason I say that is because it's a safety net for so many. And I'm sure we're going to come onto the private rented sector where rents are completely extortionate and homelessness is spiralling. But what's happening is because we're not dealing with that, it means more and more people and more and more families are being pushed to local authorities and councils. They don't have the houses or homes to house them. So what it means is in places like London, we're now spending £5.5 million a day on temporary accommodation, the majority of which will be from the private rented sector.

14:57And that isn't efficient. That's not how we tackle the housing crisis. We need long-term solutions. And that is building quality, decent council housing that I hope one day will be seen as a tenure not only for those most in need and not just for the poorest in society. And you look at places like Austria where that's not the case. It's the only, in my mind, the only form of genuinely affordable housing. And we fundamentally need more of it to rebalance the crisis we're facing at the moment and to reduce the crisis that we're facing. To push back, it's not really my pushback. It's just something I hear all the time.

15:33So I'm interested what your answer is. So I definitely want to end right to buy. But you often hear people go but were people not right to buy their own homes like was not owning a home something that you know someone who is working class and in a council house entitled to do so right to buy I mean that is the bane of my life I I think it is the most devastating housing policy that was possibly introduced under the guise of helping working class people to get onto the property ladder if you look at the number of homes sold under right to buy that has now fallen into the private rented sector. It's astonishing how many homes we have lost under right to buy since it was introduced in the 1980s.

16:14And people ask me, was the right to buy a success? No, it was an absolute failure. The reason being is under right to buy, it was promised that for the homes that were sold off, they would be replaced. That never happened automatically. In my eyes, that policy was a failure. And people say, well, they were trying to help working class people. I don't think that was the case. I think they were trying to get rid of social housing and wanted to do that by introducing the right to buy scheme. But when people say that, I ask them at the expense of who? At the expense of 1.3 million households, working class households now stuck on waiting lists across the country, 172 ,000 homeless kids who will probably spend their entire childhood homeless or in emergency accommodation, often slum conditions.

16:59Is that the success that they're Because that is the reality as a result of the introduction of the right to buy scheme. And I fundamentally do believe that they would have understood that if they didn't, alongside the right to buy scheme, replace those homes, we would further down the line end up in a situation like this. But by that point, they're no longer in government and therefore it's not their problem anymore. and it's not just Margaret Thatcher there's been consecutive governments Labour and Conservative governments who have failed to address this issue have failed to give council and social housing the respect it deserves who have failed to admit that it's one of the biggest ways that we're going to get out of the housing crisis that we have faced and they have been incredibly underwhelming with that so it's not just we blame one there is a whole host of reasons as to why we've ended up where we are now but often you can trace it back to the introduction of the right to buy scheme and the Housing Act of 1988.

17:55Agreed entirely. So, so well articulated. You mentioned the private rented sector, and of course, that's the place to go next. We've had the renters' rights bill, and I'm sure you'd agree there's been some good improvements in it, but also things like ending Section 21 evictions, no fault evictions. It took so long, and we still had councils, the councils themselves, who were still using Section 21s with different loopholes. What do you still think are the biggest gaps in terms of rights for private renters? I don't think enough's being done with estate agents. And we haven't really spotlighted just how much of a problem they have become in terms of the misery that renters are facing.

18:30But I also believe they've become a problem for landlords too, because often they act as the middleman and fail to communicate between the two. But I'm happy to collect money off of the back of it. In terms of renters' rights, there was a point that I wanted to mention, and that was the affordability issue in the private rented sector. That is a massive reason as to why we have the levels of homelessness that we are facing at the moment. Yes, we had Section 21, and I'm glad to see the back of that. But the big elephant in the room is the affordability crisis in the private rented sector. And people really, really struggling, in some cases, paying the majority of their income per month to their private landlord.

19:09And in many cases, the conditions of their homes are shambolic. Something has to be done about it. and people don't like the term rent control or rent stabilisation. What I am fundamentally clear on is something, in order to tackle this housing crisis, something has to be done to address the affordability crisis in the private rented sector. And so I am calling for rent controls. I know on some positions you probably stay neutral in terms of you go, I just want things to get sorted. Do you have a position on rent controls? In terms of rent controls, I mean, as I said, something has to be done to address the affordability crisis in the private rented sector rent controls people will often ask well what does that look like and i think it's important to actually create a model which fundamentally works i think a big problem that i see online often is people talk about well if we introduced rent controls would that then mean that landlords are leaving at a rapid pace and therefore people become homeless off of the back of that and then have to turn to local authorities that don't have council housing so we have to address the issues where I guess with rent controls, rents are fair, but in the long and short term, it doesn't end up having the sort of impact that we don't want.

20:21And that is driving people towards homelessness. But with rent controls, people panic when they hear it. There are some other countries that have had rent controls or rent stabilisation to address unaffordable rents, specifically with private housing. You can look at New York City, for example. You can look at Berlin. I think in 2020, they introduced that. But Scotland, I think, and I know there was issues with all of these. I mean, none of these models were perfect, but what was shown was a willingness to address the elephant in the room. And that is millions of people are struggling, really struggling to pay their rent on a monthly basis because they keep receiving rent hikes, which is completely, completely unfair.

20:59And I think a fair point to make is if landlords were going through that situation where it was reversed and they were receiving rent hikes, living in poor conditions, for example, having to choose whether they're going to put clothes on their kids back, feed themselves or pay the rent at the end of the month, they would think it's completely fair. So I like to believe in treating people how you would like to be treated. And I think that the same should apply when it comes to renting, whether we call it rent control or we call it something else, I don't care. What I do care about though, is people not having to pay the majority of their income on a monthly basis to their landlords and therefore having a poorer quality of life as a result of that we have to just like building council housing it's equally as important to address that crisis otherwise we're going to see more and more pressure being piled on to local authorities who simply do not have the resources the money or the homes to deal with it yeah i suppose the thing i'd say and not that we'll come here to have a discussion about rent controls it's an episode i'd love to have later on probably with someone who's designing a model is that if landlords did leave, we'd still have the buildings themselves.

22:09So actually that doesn't necessarily mean that that exacerbates the housing crisis. I think there's 18 countries across Europe where rent controls are a perfectly normal model of how it works. And places where it's not worked or not worked as well as it could, it's often been because they've chosen to rent control a few homes or a sector of homes, but not the entire market. And it feels like you kind of need a blanket approach rather than just a piecemeal approach. I do think it can work. I mean, in terms of Scotland, I guess that was a unique situation because they introduced that because of the cost of living crisis that we're facing.

22:39And I think short term, there were positives in regards to it. I mean, it did what they intended for it to do. And that was make rents fairer. But then what we saw was in between tenancies, landlords would then hike the rents for tenants, then moving into those properties, which is unfair and just continue that process. So it's about thinking about, well, how do we do it in a way that's fair, that's efficient, and don't have any sort of counter effects that we don't want it to have. But then if we think about it, right, we had, I think it was called fair rents. I need to try to remember the dates now, but I think, was that up until 1980s?

23:17Yeah, it was round about that. Yeah, 1980s. And we saw during the Second World War and the First World War, this idea of rent control or rent stabilization. We had that for a long period of time. We're kind of in the experiment now as opposed to the other way around. Rent controls isn't the experiment. What we have now is the experiment that's gone wrong. Yeah, and I mean, again, I referenced the Housing Act of 1998, but we saw that massive shift away from that. And since then, more and more people have just suffered as a result of that. So we have to get back to a model that's fair. We absolutely have to address the affordability crisis in the private rented sector.

23:53and that starts with some sort of rent control, rent stabilisation, but addressing that in particular, whether people like it or not, because ultimately no one wants to be in that position. Yeah, finally on rent controls, and I'll move on. I want to shout out my colleague's work. I know you know her, Zoe Garbutt. Yes. She's been pushing the Mayor of London for a renters commission, which is about having renters and renters unions all around the table together, going, actually, let's design what a fair rent looks like, how we do rent controls, and then start to lobby to make it happen. So I think it's filling in some of these gaps.

24:20I think there is, amongst some MPs, a willingness to consider it and take it on board. Because I think, I mean, for any MP, it's really hard for me to believe that they don't think the situation in the private rental sector needs to be addressed in terms of extortionate rents. So I think there's more and more of a willingness to accept that something needs to be done. The question is about how and whether senior leaders want to consider it or think it's important enough to take on board. but I commend anyone that works in politics openly admitting there's a problem here. There is an elephant in a room and it needs to be addressed.

24:55Yeah, definitely. We need to bring those people together. I reckon 10 years ago, if we'd had this conversation about housing and we're talking about people who are living in financially precarious situations, we'd be talking about temporary accommodation, renting and people living in council houses. We wouldn't talk about people who own their own homes necessarily, but it feels like leaseholders created a whole new tier of financial precarity. I believe there's over 5 million people in London in leasehold accommodation and more countrywide. Can I ask what the difficulties are about leasehold? Well, it's, I guess, very similar to what I deal with in rented accommodation.

25:25And in particular, I haven't had loads of leaseholders approach me in regards to their situation. It's more so renters. But then again, being them at the mercy of those in charge and their freeholders, them basically charging whatever they want, however extortionate it may be, and expect them to pay it. They're basically essentially saying or telling them to jump and expecting them to turn around and say, well, how high? And it's been going on for a very, very long time. I've spoken to many leaseholders who are put in extremely financially precarious situations because of their freeholders. Not only that, some of them not being able to sell their homes because of safety issues, for example.

26:09So they feel fundamentally trapped in a system which isn't fair. Now, this government said they were going to address it. I've been seeing a lot online in relation to leasehold. I know there are some leaseholders out there that certainly feel that the government promised one thing and now they're shifting goalposts. And that for me is a problem. That for me is unfair. If you say you're going to do something, then just get on with doing it, because otherwise it sows distrust. And leaseholders, quite frankly, and quite rightly, are going to end up pissed off as a result of that. Right. And I partly ask the question because I'm wondering how hopeful you feel that we can turn the situation around housing more generally around.

26:45because it felt like it used to be a small amount of people who had unsafe and unfair living conditions. And that wasn't okay when it was a few people. But now it feels like everyone knows someone who's living in somewhere that's got damp mould or some sort of housing issue where the person who owns it isn't taking responsibility they need to. It's true. And we often see leaseholds separate from private rented, separate from social housing, separate from temporary accommodation. But when we add all of those people up, we are talking about millions of people up and down the country. And the reason I say tackling this housing crisis is important is because the one thing that we all need as human beings, and we expect to go back to the end of the day, is a decent and safe and affordable roof over our head.

27:25That's what unites us all. But for so many, they do not have access to that. And that is a growing number of people. We're talking about millions, millions of people. If I was in politics and thought, what is the issue that affects the majority of people up and down the country is in a state and needs fixing. The first thing that I will come to is housing. It affects a child's education. We talk about people leaving the prison system and being handed tents to live in. People sustaining jobs, people sustaining education. I've seen people drop out of university as a result of the impact living in a dangerous home is having on them.

28:03We talk about the NHS and hospital beds, how people happen to be kept in hospitals because there's nowhere safe to discharge them to. People with terminal illnesses and cancer treatment being paused because, again, they don't have anywhere safe to go back to. When you don't have somewhere that is safe, decent and affordable and that is taken away from you, it affects all four corners of your lives. And as you said, quite rightly, there is now, I would probably argue the highest level of people suffering as a result of not having adequate and decent and affordable housing at the moment in this country.

28:36and I have been screaming this for a very very long time but we've seen it over decades housing has never been seen as that political priority that needs to be tackled it's always been seen as a secondary issue um pushed down that sort of political agenda and therefore what it's meant is for decades this crisis has been allowed to build and now I think some politicians look at it and think well that mountain's too high to climb let's kick it under the long grass and not actually deal with it and that is a real shame it does such a disservice to millions of people up and down the country who they depend on at every election to go out and vote for them my perfect day as sand salt water in France but my moderate to severe plaque psoriasis can take me out of the moment now I'm all in with clearer skin thanks to Sky Rizzy Rizzen Kizumab RZA a prescription only 150 milligram injection for adults who are candidates for systemic or phototherapy.

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30:47That's Warby Parker dot com. And the one tenure I haven't asked you about is temporary accommodation. and that often gets missed from these conversations because it feels like sometimes people feel invisible or they're not seen or heard. What's going on with temporary accommodation and what needs to happen? The biggest issue I'm dealing with at the moment is the state of temporary accommodation. I mean, it's hard to talk about it without becoming somewhat upset. You're talking about people who are homeless whose only other alternative is to sleep on the street and they are given accommodation often and told you either take it or leave it.

31:23but if you leave it you're making yourself intentionally homeless and therefore we're not going to help you so you're trapped in often accepting accommodation which is completely unsuitable for their needs which massively affects their mental health and in many cases affects their physical health too i've seen people living in temporary accommodation who have had sealants collapse on top of them i went to one hmo which is temporary accommodation where that landlord was receiving about£7 ,000 to£10 ,000 a month from a local authority. And I had to have all seven members of that accommodation who were homeless moved out and that property condemned because of how dangerous it was.

32:01I went in there and genuinely thought I was going to be electrocuted. There was water pouring from the lights. It meant on the ground floor where the residents were sleeping. They had fridges plugged in their rooms, but that would often trip because of the electrical leak. There was bars on the window. The kitchen didn't even have a working oven. It just blew my mind because I've seen so many cases of this in temporary accommodation where local authorities are just paying ridiculous prices and accepting any form of accommodation from private landlords that they offer because they feel they have no alternative, whether it poses a dangerous risk to those living in those homes or not.

32:40And I think that is quite frankly disgraceful nearly nine years on from Grenfell when we talk about building safety, when we talk about the way in which residents are treated, whether they're heard or not heard, but ultimately their health and safety, nothing should come before that. But within temporary accommodation, that is completely and utterly ignored. And you've just triggered a mere memory, which was about 10 years ago, I lived in an HMO, which is basically an old hostel bedsit area. And it was ruled to be environmentally unsustainable. And the landlord, there's all sorts of problems with the landlord, and actually he was a conservative councillor at the time.

33:13And I got a rent repayment order. So actually I got money back off my rent. But to get that rent repayment order, I had to read so much policy. My friend who was living with it at the time also read that and we kind of had to really apply ourselves to make sure that we got that money back. But how many people is a rent repayment order available to or how many people know their rights? It's so minimal. Well, this is it. And that's the case. And legal aid, look at the state of legal aid and how that's been massively reduced. it's almost as if renters and ordinary individuals have been, especially living in HMOs or temporary accommodation, condemned to whatever it is that they're offered without any recourse to challenge that, which I think is completely and utterly unfair.

33:53And I don't think enough is being done about that. But also to educate renters. Often, if you don't know, you just don't know. You don't know where the help is. You don't know where to go. And often it's made so complicated and so difficult that it's in some cases just more convenient to put up with it than the headache of having to knock on so many doors to then be turned away before eventually you are helped. And that is why so many people end up coming to me because the people that are supposed to be there, the agencies that are supposed to be there, that receive money, individuals are paid to make sure this sort of stuff isn't happening and those individuals are helped fundamentally are not doing their job.

34:32I, in my role, cannot help absolutely everyone. It is at times completely and utterly overwhelming. And that's why I believe there has to be systemic change and once and for all taking housing in this country as a serious issue that needs to be tackled and dealt with. You cannot fix all of the other social issues that we are facing as a country without first and foremost addressing the issue of housing. And it's not just me saying that. I remember a couple of years ago, So NHS bosses came out and said, you can't claim to have fixed the NHS without first and foremost addressing housing and the crisis of housing because it has put an extra pressure on our NHS.

35:10Thank you for everything that you've done. I know you don't need my thanks, but just I think you put it so well there that this is a system failure. And in place of that, you've stepped in and given your time and your effort and your emotional energy and physical time and brain space to helping other people who have really needed help. and you shouldn't have to do that. But also, you know, on behalf of all of those people, I think, you know, you can't be thanked enough for that. When people do come to you, how much are they worried about revenge eviction or repercussions as a result of you kind of amplifying their story?

35:40I mean, in the beginning, it was all the time. There was two things. There was a fear of revenge evictions or revenge responses from their landlords. But also on top of that, the shame and stigma that it carried to their situations. That was a big, big problem. I've spoken to people in absolute tears at their complete wits end, wanting things to change, but frightened to expose what it is they're going through in order to get that help. And people fail to understand and realise that you being in your situation isn't necessarily your fault. And by talking about your situation, the shame shouldn't lie with you.

36:20it should lie with those responsible who would never accept having to go through the situation that you are going through and if there's one message it would be that the shame should never lie with those going through it but those responsible and ultimately that is why I've been able to do what I've been able to do for the last five years is because I've taken that shame away from them and handed it to those responsible and I think as a country we need to do more and more of that but also everyone needs to understand whether you're young or old the importance of shelter and decent, safe and affordable shelter for us all, if not for us now as individuals, for the next generation who absolutely deserve what we weren't given.

37:00For sure. As an elected politician, the thing I hear about more than anything else with housing is damper mould. Yeah, damper mould is still a massive, massive issue. I still get loads of messages and emails of people living in damper mould. And that's even after the introduction of Awe's Law. With that That being said, I think after our passed away, obviously it dominated headlines in terms of people are living with damper mould and no one should have to, which is absolutely right. But what we began to forget was there are so many other dangerous issues that people are living with. Damaged asbestos, for example, I mentioned earlier that I've been into homes and have to put bags over my shoes because of people's homes being flooded with raw sewage.

37:39I've seen that countless times. I've left properties with cockroaches on me because of the infestation that families have faced. People have found mice in their kids' cornflakes. I've seen pictures of that. People have become unwell. I remember there was one young girl who was in hospital after developing sepsis. She was bitten. There was an infestation of, I think there were fire ants in her property. There were like red ants in her property. She was rushed to hospital and our organs started to fail off of the back of that. There are so many other issues that people are living with, not just damper mould, that really puts their health and safety at serious risk.

38:15And I've even taken people to A &E after they have had their ceiling caving and collapse on top of them, which is a very, very common issue too, on top of leaks. And this is in 2026 in Britain. Yeah, it's wild. And I think it's a point of, yeah, we need to insulate homes, but we also need to ventilate homes because actually we need to make sure that there's that air to pass through. Yeah, and I also want to make the point before I entirely forget is we often talk about cold homes during winter, but what we don't necessarily speak about enough is warm homes during summer. I remember a couple of summers ago, we had like 40 degree heat.

38:47I actually remember that because I was in Leeds climbing tower blocks at the time and knocking on people's residence doors to speak to them about the conditions they were living in. But I remember at that time, people reaching out, talking about how hot their homes were, especially in older blocks, tower blocks. People sending pictures of thermometers and the heat in their property being absolutely ridiculous. Some people having to go and sleep on their friends' sofas because of how unbearably hot their homes were. And I guess we're going to see more and more with that. We can expect more and more of that.

39:17And in winter, we can expect more and more rain, leaks, those types of things. But we cannot forget that summer's becoming a real issue in terms of homes becoming too hot. And we do absolutely need to do something to address that before people die. And I know there are some countries during that period of time where a number of people died as a result of the heat wave. Yeah, I mean, that's really bad for everyone, but particularly older populations. I have to say, when you said you were climbing a tower block, I had Spider-Man thinking. I realised you meant that. But you're absolutely right. The climate crisis means we're going to get colder winters with more rain, more floods and obviously hotter summers as well.

39:52And so we need to make sure our homes are adapted properly. And people have the right information as well to know how to cope with it. We have to keep that in mind, not just with older homes, but with new builds. It's in the state of new builds. And it's absolutely shocking what's being allowed to go up in some instances. And I've said time and time again, if we think we've got a housing crisis now and we allow new blocks just to be knocked up shoddily, we're going to have an even bigger crisis in 20 years' time when they have to be torn down. If we're going to and we're serious about building homes, we have to do it right first and foremost.

40:25Otherwise, there is no point. And some of the new builds that I've seen go up, I remember there was one in particular, only two years old. And I went in there, I went from top to bottom and there was issues like damper mould, ceilings collapsing, sewage running from the top right down into the basement of this block. And from the outside, it looked like something that should belong in Canary Wharf or central London, but was an absolute state. And in fact, I think all residents now have to be moved out as a result of that. That block isn't even five years old. And if this can all sound a bit grim, there was definitely some hope recently, which I saw that you were on a march for national renters demonstration, where literally thousands of people turned out.

41:04How much of an important moment was that for you? Oh, it was absolutely huge. Even talking about it now, like hairs are standing up on my arm. I think even going there, I underestimated the numbers of people that would show up. And when I started five years ago going into people's homes, I would talk to individuals and I even remember thinking in my own situation, it's just me going through it. We're going to be blamed for it. Then to come five years later out on a national housing demonstration, I would have never believed that was possible back then. and not only that, for the amount of people to show up on the first one in years was absolutely incredible to see and everyone unified, all of the organisations that showed up, all of the volunteers that showed up, individuals on the rough end of the housing crisis quite frankly pissed off with what is going on and the fact enough isn't being done.

42:00All united and calling for the same things, it certainly filled me with hope. And I do feel like I'm hopeful that this crisis can be tackled once and for all. The only reason that I'm here and talking about it and still doing this five years on is because I genuinely do believe this is an issue that can be fixed, but it takes the right will to do so. And I hope certainly within my lifetime that I I look back and I'm able to say, I told you so. It could be done. And if people want to help out or they want things to get better, obviously the first thing I would say is go out and vote tomorrow. It's really important that you make sure that you're voting for a councillor who will hold housing as an important issue as a conversation we've had here.

42:43What else can people do other than voting? First and foremost, talking about the issues, talking to your neighbours, talking to your friends about how important housing is. Just like we talk about the NHS and education, housing is equally as important to that. and they all intertwine and affect each other. But not only that, volunteer. Volunteer to help people go into it. There's so many organisations who feel absolutely overwhelmed with the crisis that we're facing at the moment. And there are loads of organisations who are under-resourced trying to support that. That could do with people volunteering and assisting.

43:12It really does open your eyes into the reality of what people are going on and what's happening on a daily basis. But also put pressure on your politicians because they will come round every five years and beg you for your votes. and they will ask you what is it that you need and you will tell them well my housing my leaks fixed my rent's not to go up not having to worry whether i'm going to have to pay the majority of my wage in rent at the end of each month and they will say yeah we'll do that and then you will elect them and that's not the case accountability needs to happen and holding them to account and i certainly think if your councillor isn't talking about housing in the run-up to this election personally it's up to you who it is that you vote for um but i would have very very serious questions it strikes me i don't want to deter from a really serious issue of housing but i'm really interested in your story too because you talked about how you'd come from from living in this accommodation but you're you're seemingly so confident um so relaxed about talking about these issues and you've been on you know huge national media platforms what would you say to people who might be nervous to speak up on these things or have stories to tell but think it's it's not for them to speak it absolutely is everyone's story is important and i would never say to the next person or your story isn't as important as mine x y and z everyone should speak about their situation live there's nothing more important i don't believe than lived experience and hearing about lived experience because that's ultimately how we create change and people realizing that it's not just them there are other people going through the same thing and ultimately these things need to change and in the beginning I remember thinking oh my gosh am I going to be an absolute nightmare I remember the first time I did any sort of podcast or interview never done it in the past hated public speaking would get nervous mind blank that's why yeah and it all sometimes it does still um occur and and happen but I feel like when you genuinely care about a subject like housing and because you've got that lived experience and you've been through it that confidence already comes through and it comes through in passion.

45:13Yeah, it just shines off you. And if so, if you're someone who's living in accommodation that's unseatable or there's a problem, would you encourage someone to kind of create their own video and publish it out there? Oh, absolutely. There's nothing more important than shame. And I can tell you that because, again, that's sort of what I built a name off of. And it's weird because you're often told, and I remember the first time it happened, in fact. So before I shared my videos on social media of my property, I remember having a housing officer come in my house and they were looking around and they were trying to basically gaslight me and to believe in it wasn't as bad as what it was.

45:44And then I put on social media and it went viral and they picked up on it. This is the biggest housing association in Europe. They picked up on it. The following week, it was like, he came back to my property, but it was like I was talking to a brand new person. And that I realised that's when a penny dropped for me. It was the shame. And I think people need to sort of get over that idea of them needing to feel that sense of shame and really hand it back to those responsible. So absolutely, I would encourage people to turn to social media, share their experiences, and don't be afraid to call individuals out for not doing what they're responsible for doing or paid to do.

46:22There's nothing wrong with that. Everyone deserves to live in a home which is safe, decent and affordable. And I would say that to absolutely anyone and everyone, regardless of who you vote for, regardless of your job, of your background. And I think we all need to be united in that understanding if we're to really move forward with this issue. I wouldn't want to end this conversation without talking about an issue I often hear that I imagine has probably come across to you as well, which is the issue of people with disabilities living in non-accessible housing, a housing that's not appropriate, or being stuck on like an eighth floor without a lift that's working for a week or two.

46:58Which, you know, a week or two might not sound like a huge amount of time, but if you're in a wheelchair, then that one day really isn't acceptable. it's a big issue a really really big issue and i remember saying in the past we talk about the equalities act i don't believe in many situations that i've seen that it's been applied and often to those with disabilities unfortunately i've seen many many cases of people in wheelchairs for example trapped in their homes for months because they haven't got a working lift or can't get out of their property not only that when it comes to allocation of housing them being placed on the top floor or very high floors and tower blocks and that for me is a massive problem look in terms of what we saw with Grenfell.

47:35Why is it that we're not caring for these individuals and their needs? And in fact, this, I think, highlights how big of a problem it comes to when we're talking about people with disabilities or accessible homes in this country, especially social housing. I, not long ago, I'd say maybe six months to a year ago, I FOI'd local authorities and I asked them about accessibility and how many people on their waiting list. And there was councils that turned around to me and turned back and said they don't record it. Gosh. they don't record it which if that doesn't highlight the sort of lack of lack of respect shown towards those with disabilities or vulnerable individuals or those with mental health for example I don't know what does that is a huge problem and I find it hard to believe that there are people in housing departments with massive titles and none of them possibly thought maybe this is something that we should have been recorded this is why I get so frustrated and this is why I get so angry.

48:28The culture and stigma needs to massively shift towards those that are renting, but also those that are vulnerable with mental health and with disabilities. As we come to the end of this conversation, which has been amazing, you're full of knowledge as I expect and passion. It feels like we need to talk about Grenfell because I think there's probably no bigger symbol, not just symbol, but practical action that happened that showed the failure of housing in this country. And what lessons do you think need to be learned? It's interesting that nine years on we still have to talk about lessons being learned from the biggest tragedy in relation to housing this country has ever faced.

49:04The biggest lesson that really should have come from that is treating people like human beings like equals which still to today fundamentally doesn't happen and residents who survived the disaster have spoken about even before the fire the way in which they were treated, the way in which they were stigmatised, they were treated as less than human beings. And that's the foundation. That's the basis where things really could have changed and should have changed. It didn't take a lot of money in order to do that. It took a shift in culture. It took those at the sort of top of the political spectrum to point that out and to talk about that and to really implement that.

49:38And it hasn't happened enough. And one thing I say in terms of, because often it's landlords or organisations and businesses versus residents, We as a country have gone from treating housing as a human right, something that we all need, into a hobby or an opportunity to accumulate wealth by investing in property and housing. and as a result of that more and more people have continued to suffer and businesses have got away with avoiding safety regulations or ensuring health and safety treating health and safety as a number one priority for those who are living in their properties and I think Grenfell was an example of just that organizational abuse organizational power and the exploitation of residents and tenants, the attitudes towards them.

50:30I can't tell you the amount of times I've heard people say, well, those individuals shouldn't be complaining. They should feel lucky to live in social housing, regardless of the conditions. That's part of the problem. And one of the reasons I continue doing what I am doing is one, because of my dad and two, because of Grenfell and what happened. I remember where I was. I remember the time when I first watched the news and I saw aerial footage of Grenfell before I was going to go off to sixth form and I remember how I felt and that has stayed with me ever since. And if I can do my bit to try and prevent anything like that ever happening, then I want to be able to do that.

51:11But nine years on since Grenfell, we should not be having a conversation around what lessons need to be learned. Lessons should have been learned and that alone shows that we've not gone far enough. I chair the fire committee in London, so Grenfell is something I've looked into deeply. And there's still evidence that comes out. I've found out recently that when people called the fire brigade or the call controllers, they would be treated differently depending on their accent or how well they spoke English. And I think it points how housing is one thing, but actually it speaks to every other discrimination and every other problem we have in society.

51:46All of these things are interlinked, actually, and it comes back to treating everyone with humanity and dignity. Yeah, and that feeds on across stories that I've heard. My dad, for example, when he used to call up the local authorities, his middle name is Robert. My dad had a strong West African accent and when he used to phone them up, he would give the name Robert instead of Kwaku because he felt he would be taken a bit more seriously had he done that. And that goes to show it's not isolated incidents. This is a systemic cultural problem, ultimately. the point I wanted to make in regards to Grenfell is that we are nearly nine years on and no one's gone to jail for it no one's been prosecuted for it and I can't help but think if Grenfell were to have happened in Canary Wharf in an office block or in a rich a really really rich block in London with wealthy individuals would they really have had to wait nine years to see individuals prosecuted as a result of that happening because of their failure, because of their negligence, corporate negligence.

52:51I don't think that would be the case, unfortunately. I fundamentally believe it's because of the type of people that were living in Grenfell. And that is a real, real big shame. And they deserve justice. The community is still reeling because they are waiting for justice. And they will continue to wait for justice, I'm sure. Governments haven't gone far enough. They've paid a lot of lip service, consistently paid a lot of lip service, but haven't gone far enough in terms of action to deliver for those that were living in Grenfell, those that lost their lives and those in and amongst the community too.

53:28Can I make you housing secretary and ask you what you do about the issue of second homes or empty buildings? Empty buildings, Mike. However, I'm glad you're pointing all of these out. empty properties, it's an absolute disgrace that we have over a million empty homes whilst we've got 170 odd thousand homeless kids in England. If we're talking about efficiency, you would think if we've got empty homes there, we would invest in bringing them up to standard and making sure that we are renting them out. There's a lot of local authorities who say they're absolutely cash strapped, yet are sat on hundreds of empty property.

54:05And to me, that is financial illiteracy. But the most important point here is the amount of homeless people and people stuck on waiting lists. Yes, some of those homes may be beyond repair. Yes, some of those homes may need extensive repair. But also what we need to realise is when there's inefficiency when it comes to housing, especially council properties where tenants move out and then they've mismanaged it in the sense where those properties are then left for a year or two to sit empty. they then develop issues like damp and mould and begin to deteriorate and become one of those homes, which is where it's going to cost a lot to invest in it, to bring it back up to standard.

54:40We need better efficiency. But first and foremost, we need a common sense approach. And you would think bringing empty homes back into use would be an absolute fundamental priority. I think another thing that I've said in the past is this issue with foreign investors in terms of buying up wealthy investors, buying up properties, buying up in some cases entire developments and then they go left sat empty when we're in the biggest housing crisis we have faced during the second world war. What I suggested in the past was and I'm sure I haven't been the first person to say this is if that's the case and they are willing to leave these properties empty why is it that we haven't thought about slapping taxes on them and taking that money and investing in building the homes that British people need here and now and that is council housing perhaps using some of that money to give to councils who are cash strapped to begin building homes that so many of the people living in their areas so desperately need whether or not that's being considered i don't know but something that there are smart and more efficient things that we could be doing to tackle this crisis like empty homes like taxes on homes that are left sat empty um and i've been screaming about it for a very long time but i just don't understand why it's not been implemented or even considered yet i keep shouting out my colleagues work today but that's because we're doing a lot on housing, Sean Berry, the MP for Brighton Pavilion, she's been doing something called Buy the Supply or pushing something to buy the supply, which is about councils having first refusal of buying back empty homes or homes not in use to make sure that they can be used for council housing.

56:12I think she has a petition at the moment out online that people can find by searching Sean Berry buy the supply. We should, we should, and they should get first refusal in regards to buying back those properties. Yes, we need to build homes and we could be building homes, but if we've got loads of stock already out there that we could use and it's not going to take years to build, Why are we not utilising that? Because it means we are shortening the length of time families are going to have to suffer stuck on council waiting lists, living in dangerous HMOs or being moved to other sides of the country because they're being told that there are no homes available.

56:48We need to think smart about tackling this crisis. I can't put in one more caution. It's very niche, but I think it's important. So for years, I was a property guardian, which for those who don't know what this is, you live in like an old abandoned building, like an office block or a church or a theatre. I lived in the hospital for a few years. And actually, I absolutely loved it. I lived with about 20 people. And we would often eat together. And it was like a real communal space. In many ways, it wasn't an appropriate place to live. Like I liked it. But there were people who are living there who weren't living there because they enjoyed the joy of the sociableness.

57:15They enjoyed it because it was cheaper rent. And actually, often the floors, because they were office floors or hospital floors, just weren't good for people. your body to be walking on those so i think absolutely we need to bring uh kind of old office blocks for instance uh into housing stock but we also need to make sure that we're treating the building appropriately so we're not causing like medical or health issues for people down the line yeah and if we are doing that we need to make sure that those those buildings or the frame of those buildings are able to take the fact that people are going to be living there it has to be suitable for people to be able human beings to be able to to live there otherwise we have to look for alternatives.

57:47I think there was a suggestion about using like converting chicken and chip shops or takeaways or something a couple of years ago. The first question that was raised in my mind is, is that going to be suitable once converted for people to actually be living in? Or will they face issues like damp and mould or other health issues as a result of having to live there? But I think you're absolutely right. But once those things are checked and health and safety is being treated as a number one priority, then we should just be able to get on with it. And again, be efficient when it comes to tackling this crisis long term.

58:20Absolutely. We need as many council homes as possible. We need a mixture of people living in social housing, council housing, and that to be an offer for people that maybe eventually they might want to save up and buy their own property. But for those, there'll be many people that would be comfortable in living in social housing. they just want a number of things security stability safety and affordability i think if you ask anyone or the majority of people across the country what is it that they want from housing it would be that regardless of whether it is council housing regardless of it is renting in any other form or owning their own home that is i think what they are going to say so we absolutely need to make sure that that's delivered on and finally i want to ask people to do two things One is to remember to vote tomorrow.

59:12Yes. And second is how can they follow you and find out more about you? Yes. And please, please go and vote tomorrow. I'd encourage any and everyone to vote if we really want to push for change and in terms of how people can follow my work. So I'm on social media. I'm on X. I'm on Instagram and TikTok. And it is Quajo Housing. Perfect. That's what it says on the tin. Yes. I could pick your brains on the housing all day, but the producer's literally waving to tell me to talk. I think we've both got meetings to go to. Yes. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Thank you.

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