The Death Of Two Party Politics | Owen Jones | Zack Polanski

0:00Hey Zach, Chris Packham here. I just want to tell you about something really exciting. EcoTalk. It's a phone company that helps restore nature, and it's brilliant. You can find out more about it at ecotalk.co.uk. When I think about two or three years ago, the British political system felt very different. It felt like we were really locked in a two-party system. There were a few things that happened that I think started to break down that system, and I think it's impossible to go there is one single thing. but I think there were some prominent things and for me one of them was when someone who had been in the Labour Party a very very very long time was very associated with the Labour Party very publicly left the Labour Party on principled reasons so I'm not going to give a really long introduction because you know who I'm about to introduce he's a writer a commentator an activist a campaigner a podcaster he does everything it's Owen Jones

1:10Hello.

1:14Welcome, Owen. This is very exciting. It is very exciting. This guy's going to go far. What do you reckon? You know your audience. So, Owen, I want to get to hope, alternative solutions. I want to talk about the left. but first I want to start with the grim stuff. I want to get to there. So on the grim stuff, how was Labour conference? I was going to say we're taking the scenic route, are we? Wow, it was bleak. I'm not going to lie, it was bleak. I've been going to the Labour Party conference for my sins. As you say, I've left the Labour Party. My mental health has improved markedly. But I've been going over it and it was odd.

1:53Maybe it was a bit like, you know, you think meeting up with an ex over coffee where things, you know, maybe a bit of water's under the bridge. There was no water, obviously, under that bridge. It was, I mean, I think a few things I'd say is it was, you know, you had to find the members because there were so many corporate lobbyist types there. So, you know, every year we voxpot people, although I did get banned this year after I interviewed Luke Aikers. How would you describe deliberately shooting children in the head and the chest? How would you describe that? I'm just not sure I believe that anyone has deliberately done that.

2:30So why have dozens of US-based medics reported, having served in Gaza, that Palestinian children have been shot in the head and the chest deliberately by Israeli snipers? I don't believe that that's happened. So why are they saying it? I don't know. So you know better than genocide scholars and medical experts, medics who served in Gaza? Well, I know what I believe. So many members just didn't want to speak to us. And I guess there's fewer and fewer people maybe who are politically aligned with me. But also they knew they had nothing to defend. You know, they knew that they couldn't possibly defend the record of this catastrophic government.

3:10What were they going to say? Oh, yeah. Scrapping the universal winter fuel payment. Woo! Trying to attack disabled people. Woo! You know, keeping the two-child benefit cap, which drives hundreds of thousands of kids into poverty. Arming a genocide. You know, they know they can't defend the record. They know that their leader has no vision, no principles, no moral compass. They know that no prime minister has become so unpopular so quickly. They know that this is one of the most hated governments already in British democratic history. So the atmosphere was pretty bad, I would say. And when we tried to chat to certain Labour politicians, they got very, very angry.

3:53And you know what? If this, because, you know, I'm a lefty, then I'm a critic of Starmer. If things were going well, they'd be rubbing it in my face. They'd be triumphalist. They weren't like that. They were angry. They were bitter. You know, these did not come across like people who just won a landslide victory by, through our electoral system, getting a third of the vote and two thirds of the seats. They came across like they'd just been defeated. You know, these are sore winners. Gosh, I think about sometimes when I talk to people who have been in the Labour Party for a very long time and they go, I know you're right.

4:24I just can't leave the Labour Party. It's my life. It's my blood. What, for you, kind of made you go, enough is enough, it's time to move on, or was it a series of decisions? Oof, it really was a motorway parlour, really, wasn't it? Look, you know, I joined the Labour Party when I was 15. My mum gave me a Labour Party membership for my 15th birthday, so I really was a loser. What a sad, sad little childhood I had. You know, my parents met. My parents met. They met outside Tooting Beck Station in 1968. They were supposed to be part of some Labour Party Young Socialist rally, but there was a snowstorm.

5:01It sounds very romantic. You know, my grandmother was a Labour Party councillor. You know, I mean, obviously it was so, there was an emotional tie there. I think there was a few things. I mean, there was obviously the fact that watching Labour, But watching a Labour leader justify war crimes on a national media outlet, like how low can you get? A human rights lawyer, no less. That was when, for example, Yov Galant, the defence minister, who has an arrest warrant issued by the International Criminal Corps, centred on deliberate starvation. When he had said, we are cutting off all the essentials of life because we are fighting human animals.

5:41One of many genocidal statements made at the very beginning. and Keir Starmer was asked on by Nick Ferrari, you know, a right-wing LBC presenter, but he was asked a siege of Gaza, you know, cutting off energy, cutting off, you know, water. And Keir Starmer, a human rights lawyer who knows Article 33 of the Geneva Convention prohibiting collective punishment more than the vast majority of people, he said Israel does have that right. I mean, eternal shame. By the way, people say shame. That shame can never be scrubbed away because when you go on national radio, when you go on a national media outlet as leader of an opposition party during a frenzy of genocidal mania and you justify starving children to death, how on earth are you ever going to scrub that shame away?

6:29You don't. And there was that. There was him going on national TV and saying... Going on, he obviously briefed it ahead to support... He said, we're not going to get rid of the two-child benefit gap. He knows that drives hundreds of thousands of kids into poverty. he knows that every study says on its own terms it doesn't work people don't have fewer kids or whatever it doesn't encourage more people into work 40 or so of people affected are people in work uh obviously people's circumstances changed why are you punishing children in any case even if you're having this moralistic view about family size you know he went on to brief that they weren't going to get rid of it and he thought he was showing i'm making a tough decision because for him as a politician tough decisions are defined by whether or not you're prepared to stand up to impoverished children.

7:14Like, there is no moral compass here. But above all else, it was the fact that they, he became leader by lying through his teeth and then waged war against any democratic structure. So if supporting genocide isn't your thing, if driving children into poverty isn't your thing, you kind of think, what is the point of a Labour Party that drives children's poverty deliberately? But as you think, nothing you can do about it because we have rigged the system. We will purge anyone who stands against us. So I thought, look, this relationship has come to a pretty gruesome end. And if we don't want to allow Nigel Farage to dictate the political conversation, given the left are being silenced by the Labour Party, we need a strong force outside.

7:56And now we have a party led by a very charismatic young man. Young man. I think we're both, we'll just keep, we're geriatric millennials. We'll take it. We'll take it. Who's showing that there is an alternative to bashing migrants and punching down. and I think you being elected, I think back to having left the Labour Party and I think to myself, look, there really is an alternative outside the Labour Party and I'm glad I took that job. I could just take a really nice compliment, but I want to point out that Michael Gove was the last person to call me a charismatic man. So I'm worried about the company you're sitting in.

8:29John Curtis, he's in our video. John Curtis, the preeminent pollster in Britain. Everyone knows Sir John Curtis. He said, do you know, that's what he said to us. He said, like, we interviewed him and he said he's got the seaweed, he's got charisma. The interesting thing about Polanski and going, this has to do with his character, his personality, looks as though he's got a degree of charisma. And of course, one of the things that Keir Starmer doesn't have is charisma. One of the things that Ed Davey doesn't have is charisma. One of the things that Cammy Bajanot doesn't have is charisma. And it just went on.

8:57It's a low bar though, isn't it? Yes, actually, but nonetheless. So Owen interviewed me today and he asked me some good questions and one of them was quite tricky and a beautiful thing about being a podcast. is I want to ask you the question you asked me, Owen. Keir Starmer right now will be printing off leaflets that say at the next election, it's either the Labour Party or we get Nigel Farage. What do we do about that? He's the one paving the way for Nigel Farage because we know from every single example, for example, in the European continent, that when mainstream parties take the rhetoric and the policies of the radical right, All they do is shift the terrain onto their ground, legitimise their arguments and fuel their support.

9:43As a philosopher, a famous philosopher once put it, history repeats itself first as tragedy, then as farce. It's not the second time, it's the fifth, it's the eighth, it's the tenth time. By the way, you know, I've got more respect for A. Miliband than the vast majority of people in the cabinet, but he tried that strategy also as leader of the Labour Party. He kept doing speech after speech about immigration. So did David Cameron. They fuelled Nigel Farage. That's what the whole Brexit referendum became all about. And they opened this, you know, this gruesome Pandora's box, which has obviously never been shut.

10:16That's what he's doing. And actually, what the Green Party, I hope, will do is force the conversation away from that. Because the only way of defeating Nigel Farage is having a national political conversation that isn't about saying migrants are responsible for all our ills, it's by saying we are a very wealthy country. We have the wealth, we have the talent, we have the ability. It's just the wealth that is created by the hard graft of millions of people is being hoovered into the bank accounts of a tiny few. And if we just unlocks that and invested in people and communities, then we could build a country that works for the vast majority.

10:57The Labour Party has literally just suppressed that And, you know, if any Labour MP tries to speak out in support of those policies, they're in danger of getting the whip taken off them and purged and all the rest. Unless we have a strong alternative, then we're just going to have a political conversation, which is all about it's all on Nigel Farage's terms. So it's the cheek of a prime minister who fuels, who doesn't address the grievances that make people attracted to the likes of Farage. He doesn't address people's massive, you know, the economic grievances of a broken economic system that leads people to feel justifiably angry.

11:39He makes those worse by attacking disabled people or elderly people. and then he adopts the rhetoric and policies that legitimises Farage so he can go, well, see, I've been proven right. And then he has the audacity to go, oh, by the way, suck it up. You've got to vote for me, even though I hate you, by the way, if you're left-wing. If you believe in social justice, we, the Labour Party, we have contempt for you. You're scum. Go and die in a ditch. But you've got to vote for us because we're the only ones to stop Nigel Farage. That is an absolute absurd argument. They're the handmaidens of Farage and the only antidote is the people in this room.

12:15You're the antidote.

12:20That was a pretty good answer. I wish I'd said that earlier. As I was listening to you, I was thinking about the fact that it's quite obvious to me how we appeal to disillusioned Labour voters. It's a lot of what we're talking about. I think there's a unique role in British politics for the Green Party to reach out to people who might be thinking about voting reform. People who have rejected the old party politics, they want something anti-establishment, and they want something hopeful. Now, I can see very easily how we can make the argument about taxing multimillionaires and billionaires, about nationalizing the water companies, about our policies on investing in the NHS and education.

12:53The one that I'd love to hear your thoughts on is migration, because it feels like that's the sticking point when you talk to people. You can find a lot of common ground on so many issues. But when it comes to migration, it's almost like sometimes it feels people stop thinking coherently. How do we reach out to people who are essentially feel like they're anti-migration, but in a way that never loses our values of being a party that recognises and celebrates the contribution migrants make to this country? I do think part of it, by the way, is just shifting the conversation. I don't think being constantly, you know, I often like to quote Ronald Reagan, obviously a big political idol of mine.

13:31He said to me very wise, he said, when you're explaining, you're losing. and the point of that is you always want to force your opponents on the defensive you want to force them on your terrain you want them to be the ones who are tripping up over themselves having to unpack their argument which is which is why you know the tories kept going you know they'd introduced the benefit cap even though it drives huge numbers of people into poverty it punishes people for private landlords we could go on but they were trying to force us to to to make difficult arguments that weren't you know pivy and you know george layoff great political american linguist he he says that the right often talking stories and the left talking facts and statistics but we're not robots we're we're human beings now the right talking stories and they lie and we shouldn't do that never lie uh but we should try and reach people on on an emotional level there's no question about that i remember dennis skinner you know he's obviously a you know a very cantankerous former miner but you know a very you know in his day this hugely charismatic kind of you know voice of of a former mining community and and he would talk about you know his experience of of you know when he had a heart attack i think of being looked after by you know doctors and nurses from from this country in this country in this country and obviously that always connects with people on a human level when you when you humanize you know people who are demonized on a daily basis but I think you know we do talk about that a lot but I think it's combining that with shifting the conversation which is you know when you're talking about tax dodgers Nigel Farage is on the defensive when you're talking about poverty paying bosses Nigel Farage is on the defensive when you're saying we should you know I mean he is trying to raid opportunistically he'll talk about for example you know nationalising steel or whatever so he's dangerous in that sense and it's worth always being aware of that but when we're saying we should tax the rich ball enforcing and then he will oppose that because he's a thatcherite at the end of the day he is a thatcherite to his core who uses anti-migrant politics to deflect people's attentions from the real problem so of course we do have to make the case for people uh for our migrant sisters and brothers our migrant siblings people are you know in terms of humanizing the the the fact that without that you know society would collapse that's making the argument without having to say it that you You know, it's not migrants who crashed the economy.

15:57It was the bankers. It's not migrants avoiding tax on an industrial scale. It's these tax dodges. It's not migrants paying poverty, paying wages. It's these bosses. But we need to shift the argument. We need to just pick fights because that's what Farage does. He picks fights. He causes controversy. We shouldn't be afraid to do that. We have to pick fights. And again, also personalise it, I'm afraid to say. We have to pick examples of totemic bosses who treat their workforce like scum, and we have to humanise them in a good way. So I think we need to just focus on shifting the argument because I worry too much.

16:34We keep getting stuck in these defensive postures. We're getting wrapped up in having to, you know, and it doesn't help because it keeps the conversation on their terms, and we need to shift the conversation onto our terms.

16:51Hello Zach, Chris Packham here. I hear you're being politically bold. Well we at EcoTalk are being equally bold. It's the best service going I've got to say. Best network coverage in the UK. Lots of different deals, lots of packages and if you get any trouble you don't speak to a bot. You speak to a real human. But you know the best thing? The best thing is that the profits are going into nature conservation. For beavers and badgers and birds and butterflies and lots of other things which don't begin with B. So, Zach, I'm telling you, if you want to talk bold, mate, you'd better be doing it on EcoTalk.

17:27And you can switch really easily at ecotalk.co.uk.

17:37So, Owen, you've been a brave and courageous voice on so many issues, and I won't list all of them because you're blush, but I think the most obvious recently has been Palestine, and in fact you've just recently visited. How was it feels like a question almost not worth asking, but it's the first place, I guess, to start. Yeah, I mean, it was dystopian. It was great. I went with this brilliant, incredible Palestinian-Christian organisation called Sabeel, and so we went to Bethlehem and Ramallah and Hebron, all around the occupied West Bank. you know it's just that sense of just the suffocation you know there was a there was a a Palestinian I knew already from London who lives just outside Jerusalem so he kind of lives the equivalent of like Croydon you know he's like 28 29 and I'm just walking around Jerusalem freely he's been to Jerusalem once in his life when he was a baby and he's never ever he doesn't have any recollection of Jerusalem and he just lives a mile outside of Jerusalem because he's banned No Palestinian for the West Bank can enter their own city.

18:44You know, go to Hebron where, you know, I'm walking down these roads. These roads, Palestinians are banned from those roads. There are 300 illegal Israeli settlers protected by the Israeli army and they've shut down the equivalent of Oxford Street, the main commercial hub. And the Palestinians who, in the shop, people have seen this in Louis III's documentary, but, you know, those shops and homes, they're welded in because they can't enter onto that road. They only enter by their back gardens, but they're banned from that. So they can see those roads and they've been banned now for, what, 20 years?

19:18They can see the roads they're banned from because that's the front of the house, but they're welded in, literally welded in by the Israeli army, who've also put signs and placards denouncing the Palestinian people on their own, on those homes. You know, people who live in these family homes that have been their homes for generations, So what Israeli settlers have done is built on their land, you know, these homes for illegal settlers. So that they're literally, those Palestinians are caged in, their homes are surrounded by cages. And, you know, the settlers are terrorizing their children, like throwing things at their little children through their cages that they live in.

20:00It is, you know, every day you can feel, you can feel it there. It's getting, the vice gets tighter. You know, the land that Palestinians have gets smaller. More and more Palestinians are violently driven from their homes. You know, these are people who, the ambulances can't come to their homes. If something happens to them, there's no one to get them to take them to a hospital. They can't work. Their economy has been asphyxiated. They live in these tiny areas, these urban areas, where they're seized relentlessly and Israel can just invade at any point. you know it it just watching apartheid or close is something which stays with you forever you see how people are just dehumanized and stripped of basic rights freedoms and you just think this is intolerable and you also think to yourself you know they're gonna do they want it they want all palestinians between the river and the sea to to go and they're gonna find a way of doing it it's very clear they want the West Bank annexed and they want all that land to be theirs and they want to drive the Palestinian people out and we have to stop that because we're facilitating that.

21:11Every crime Israel commits, we're facilitating. Very powerful. What needs to happen? What can we do about it? It's difficult talking about in this sense because this should not be a teachable lesson. I mean, Look at the cost that has been paid by the Palestinian people. And without, you know, the courageous work of Palestinian journalists who suffered the biggest slaughter of journalists ever, often, you know, every day knowing could be their last, and in so many cases it was not just their last, but slaughtered alongside their entire families, their children, their babies. But, you know, you've got this, what we've had is working in tandem.

21:51Those Palestinian journalists and people in this country getting the message out to people in our communities. And despite the fact the media, my industry, has whitewashed this genocide, has legitimized Israeli war crimes and hidden atrocities, if you look at public opinion, 70 % of Israel has committed war crimes.

22:1170 % or so will post one an arms embargo. The majority want Benjamin Netanyahu arrested for war crimes and crimes against humanity. These are ideas which are treated as fringe by the political and media establishment, but they are supported by the vast majority of people in this country. The issue is that's not translated into action, partly because of fear. I mean, that's why they're terrorising people at the moment. That's why they spend so much time portraying a movement which actually does have the support of most people as dangerous, hateful extremists. That's why they prescribe the likes of Palestine action.

22:44But we've got to speak louder, and we have got to have more confidence because we do have public opinion on our side. but there's a climate of fear in this country on this issue. People feel scared to speak out. They feel scared to speak the obvious truth. And that's been done deliberately. But I think, you know, we've got to, we've got one thing we've got to do is not be cowled by that. Okay. You know, every week, you know, these protests are a, you know, diverse range of British society. And every single protest, there are our fellow Jewish Brits who are there protesting and standing against the genocide and they are being smeared along with everybody else as though they are threatening and harassing Jewish people and it's not true.

23:34It's a lie to say that and we have to fight and it's absurd to say this and this is, I'm not, you know, it's not for me to go explain this to you because this is your lived experience but, you know, there is this deliberate attempt by pro-Israel cheerleaders to literally conflate Jewish people with the state of Israel and its crimes. That's anti-Semitism. I don't understand. We can't allow that to happen. We just can't. We're trying to stop a genocide. We're trying to stop a terrible horror that our governments are complicit in. That's why we're fighting. And we've got to speak with stronger, ever stronger solidarity, commitment, love, courage, and build those alliances across society.

24:22But let's not be cowed. Let's not be scared by this because they're lying about what people are doing. I just want to continue on this theme maybe for one more question. So on Friday, I was on Politics Live when the horrendous terrorist attack had happened in Manchester and we're both from Manchester or Stockport. And it was very obvious to me on that show that the only authentic and correct response was to recognise it as an atrocity, to feel the real emotion of sadness. and just express that. And then the presenter read out a statement from Kemi Badenoch where she also reflected the horror and terror of what had happened and then immediately put in a line about the Middle East.

25:00And in my mind, I just thought, I can't believe how divisive she's being in this moment. And then there was only a few hours later that our Home Secretary, Shabana Mahmood, pretty much did the same thing, turned it straight onto the idea of a Palestine solidarity campaign and their marches. And there's been a strong kind of sense of feeling, or it's not even a feeling, we know that they are trying to crush dissent. How dangerous is this weaponisation, as I see it, of dealing with what was a terrorist attack that was brutal and now conflating that with people who are speaking out against a genocide?

25:37Well, I mean, firstly, love and solidarity with you. You know, you're a Jewish Mancunian and there was a horrific anti-Semitic terror attack against Jewish Mancunians. And I have to say, I'm disgusted by the disrespect that was shown to you by people in the British media who could not, who didn't treat you... But, you know, as though somehow, you know, if this was, I don't know, the Conservatives and they had a Jewish leader, they would be talking to you as someone who has lived experience of being a, you know, a political leader, but someone who is from the Jewish community. But you weren't treated like that at all.

26:14It's outrageous, by the way. It's absolutely outrageous. And I saw the Today, you know, a clip of the Today programme, the way you were heckled by the presenter with no sense of this is somebody who's part of a community, which is, you know, whatever difference of opinion is grieving. It was absolutely disgraceful, frankly. Look, I mean, this is an extremely dangerous moment because anti-Semitism is a very real evil and it is growing. You know, there's no question about that. And we can see it growing all over the Western world. And this attempt, you know, when Keir Starmer and Kami Bagdanoff and all the rest are openly suggesting that protesting against Israel's genocide is an attack on Jewish people.

26:57It's odd. You know, whatever I think of the IRA definition on anti-Semitism, and there was rightly this big debate about how two examples stifle critique of Israel. There is one example which very clearly says you do not hold Jewish people responsible for the actions of the state of Israel, which is anti-Semitism. That is obviously anti-Semitism. And yet now we are being told by political leaders and the media that protests about Israeli war crimes is somehow an attack on Jewish people. How is that consistent with what should be a consensus about what anti-Semitism is? we need unity against anti-Semitism.

27:37We need all parts of society to unite against a horrific evil which within living memory culminated in the attempted extermination of the entire Jewish people, two-thirds of whom were killed in a very short period of time. And instead, people are cynically using this very real evil to conflate it with the crimes of Israel and to shut down people who are fighting against the genocide. it's so dangerously irresponsible and we've got to stand against it we have to um but solidarity to you i don't know i mean the fact you're staying sane is quite something the last question i suppose i want to ask you is you wrote a book called the establishment and how to get away with it how do we stop them getting away with it do you know what i actually think you know what they are i think the people you know with power and wealth and money i think they actually are rattled at the moment in lots of ways because they know there's massive anger and discontent out there and a lot of them clearly their best bet they feel they will always choose that those elites they will always if they have to choose between the left or fascism i'm afraid we know from history what they tend to go for.

28:57And we've seen that, you know, more recently we saw it in Brazil, for example, with Bolsonaro.

29:05And what we have to do is, you know, accept that there is massive anger out there and that anger just has to be directed in the right direction. So we can't just pretend the anger isn't there. We have to accept the anger's there, but it's just at the wrong target. I remember Mitt Romney, the Republican candidate, he said, you know, you know, a few years ago, he said, well, the right at the the right scapegoat migrants and the left scapegoat bankers. I'm like, what? There's no equivalent there. You know, like obviously injustice in society isn't an act of God. It's not a natural weather system.

29:39People are creating it. But bankers objectively did crash the economy. That's not like migrants didn't do that. Like migrants have been blamed for things they did not do. But that doesn't mean, because people listen to that and think, well, it's just all about anger. But, you know, Tony Benn, he said, Tony Blaine, well, he died 11 years ago, and he said, you know, the way you get changes through the burning flame of anger and justice, the burning flame of hope at a better world, you have to fuse the two. And I think for us it's a case of having a coherent alternative, redirecting people's rage at the right targets, and also having good leadership.

30:14It's important to have leaders so you can articulate both the anger and the hope. So no pressure, Hank. But my view is, it's also, it is them. You know, we are going to end up with a resurgence of right-wing authoritarianism, which business elites are going to support to stop the left, to stop a progressive alternative. But we've got the possibility of a mass movement, but we've got to build, you know, these coalitions of all those, whatever our creed, our ethnicity, our gender, our sexuality, where we have the same shared economic interest. So we can't allow culture war to, it's not about in any way, you know, we stand always for minorities.

30:54We are both, you know, you're Jewish gay man, I'm a gay man. We stand by our minorities, but we've emphasised always the shared economic interests that bind all of us together, whoever we are. And that's when we become powerful because they're trying to divide us on purpose. That's what these culture wars are all about. If someone is listening to this, watching it, they're still in the Labour Party, they've not quite let go, what do we say to them? I'd say, look, why be in a party or why support a party which has contempt for you? You know, you're not an unreasonable person. You don't want the moon on a stick.

31:35You don't think you should live in a rich country where people aren't given, you know, a decent standard of living, where people can't have good, affordable, decent housing, where all the wealth that is created by the hard graft of millions of people isn't sucked into the bank accounts of a tiny few, rather invested in public services and infrastructure and communities. You're not an unreasonable person, but Labour thinks you're an unreasonable person. If you are someone who thinks, actually, we shouldn't arm a state which is massacring children, you are made out to be a dangerous extremist. why you know you're not you're not actually asking for radical things you're asking for what should be basic common sense that a wealthy society should invest that wealth in its people and that it should build a world which doesn't hurt people but rather enables people to live in peace and justice and if you're in a party which is telling you that you are an idiot or hateful or extreme for believing in these things, then what is the point?

32:41You know, you should be able to have a pie which says, actually, these are reasonable ideas that millions of people support. And the only thing holding it back is people not having faith and confidence that that's the way, you know, that enough other people support those ideas. But they do. So get out of the prison because you're trapped in a prison. And all that's going to happen is they're going to use you as voting fodder. They're going to use you, you know, because they think you've got no one else to vote for. And behind your backs, they're talking about you with contempt as just people who they treat with, you know, as hateful idiots.

33:18And then they think, well, these idiots are going to come and vote for us, whatever we do. Tell them that's not true. Tell them that you know that you are, that you believe in things that most people believe in. And actually, finally, you're going to have a home, a political home that says you're right. And with your support, we will build the society that you won and that millions of people deserve. Everybody, thank you Owen Jones.

33:51Hey, Zach, it's Chris Packham again. I'm ringing to ask if you've switched to EcoTalk yet. Come on, come on, come on. The Beavers are waiting for you and you can go and have a look at them at ecotalk.co.uk.