We Need Water Nationalisation Now | Feargal Sharkey

0:00Zack Polanski: That new thing? Yeah, we've got it. The Drop by GNC, bringing you all the newness that matters. Handpicked by the pros who actually know what's up and what's proven to work. We keep you on top of the trends and dialed into what's next. Whether you're crushing it at the gym, leveling up your game, or thriving every day, The Drop by GNC is where the latest solutions in health and wellness land first.

0:23Feargal Sharkey: Non-stop innovation and fresh finds daily. Explore what's new and what's next on The Drop by GNC. Parles-tu français?

0:31Zack Polanski: Hablas espagnol?

0:32Feargal Sharkey: Parli italiano? If you've used Babbel, you would. Babbel's conversation-based technique teaches you useful words and phrases to get you speaking quickly about the things you actually talk about in the real world. With lessons handcrafted by over 200 language experts and voiced by real native speakers, Babbel is like having a private tutor in your pocket. Start speaking with Babbel today. Get up to 55 % off your Babbel subscription right now at babbel.com slash acast. Spelled B-A-B-B-E-L dot com slash acast. Rules and restrictions may apply. Have you ever been for dinner with someone and just argued throughout the whole of dinner respectfully?

1:15Feargal Sharkey: Well, that's what I did with this week's guest. He's been affiliated with the Labour Party for a long time. And so we had quite a lot to disagree on. It was also quite obvious, though, that there were many, many, many more things that we really did agree on, whether it's about water campaigning, neoliberalism or changing the political system right now. It was an interesting conversation so I thought maybe we could advance it and you could hear it too. You may know him from one of the biggest songs of all time, Teenage Kicks. You might know him as a water campaigner. You might know him as someone who has been very vocal about Irish politics.

1:46Feargal Sharkey: My guest today is Fergal Sharkey.

1:53Feargal Sharkey: Hi Zach. It's a big day today. I'm meeting the boss to give him an update on EcoTalk. But I'm feeling good. Springs in the air, feels like the new year's really starting and good things are coming. If your listeners want to do a good thing, they should switch to EcoTalk. Then they can be part of helping nature. All they need to do is go to ecotalk.co.uk slash bold politics to find out more.

2:28Feargal Sharkey: So, Fergal, just before we started recording, you just said, I started my life delivering tallies for rentals. And I thought, I don't know about that.

2:38Zack Polanski: Well, it's not. It all gets kind of very Freudian very quickly with me. I'm really sorry to say. I come from a possibly unique family. My father was chairman of the Labour Party in the 1950s and 60s in Derry. He was branch secretary of his local union, the electrician's union. My mother was deeply involved in organising the big local cultural festival, Fishtetacollamkill, and both my parents were very politically active, both heavily engaged in the civil rights movement. And I think the best example, I may get the date slightly wrong, I think it was the 27th of April 1969, my mother demanded that my father put all of the kids in the back of the car we drove to the other side of ireland so that as a family we could take place on the people's democracy civil rights march between belfast and dublin demanding rights for catholics and the vote to my hometown etc etc etc so i've always grown up in a very politicized very open-minded background in fact in my home my upbringing, it was as almost as if you were challenged to have any opinion you wanted.

3:53Zack Polanski: The golden rule was you had to be able to intellectually justify it. So you can hold and take whatever viewpoint you like, but boy, if you could not justify intellectually the reason for taking that stance, then you'd be in real trouble. That's my upbringing. So yes, when I left school, buried in my dairy in the 1960s, 60 % unemployment amongst Catholic men. So the outlook basically was, as a Catholic grown up in Derry, there was a distinct likelihood I would probably spend a great part, if not most of my life, unemployed. Access to education, schools, all of it was incredibly difficult. Bear in mind, Derry created the whole notion of gerrymandering, electoral fraud, the whole issue of the local council.

4:39Zack Polanski: Catholics effectively were not allowed to vote. And the system was generated and geared that way to ensure that as a Catholic, you would probably not be allowed to vote in local elections to ensure that the minority community had political control at all times. That's the world I grew up in. Delivering tellies. It was the first job available after I left school. Delivering televisions for radio rentals. And it was a fantastic job when you're in a band and it comes with a van.

5:06Feargal Sharkey: And then obviously the music comes a little bit later on.

5:08Zack Polanski: Well, music was always part of my life, again, because of my mother being involved in helping. She was the secretary to Face the Column Kill. This is a big Irish cultural festival. So my mother in particular always had a huge desire and ambition and drive to try and preserve the Irish language and the Irish culture. And by definition, Irish music. So music was a part of my home life all day, every day. and in fact from I was eight, nine years old I would be singing in sessions and pubs and things and taking part in Irish, traditional Irish singing competitions and used to at one point have a huge array of medals and trophies that I'd won singing in both Irish and English.

5:52Zack Polanski: So for me music was just part of my DNA. It's always been there.

5:56Feargal Sharkey: And obviously there's been a, I would say, a resurgence through kneecap of Irish hip-hop and singing in the Irish language.

6:02Zack Polanski: Well, there's been a renaissance of Irish full stop. Right. And kneecap are part of that. And it's fantastic to see. There's a wonderful little clip that I'm immensely proud of, of local choirs, primary school kids being brought together in this mass choir, sort of 20 local primary schools in Derry to sing teenage kicks. And one of those kids being interviewed, there are now primary schools in Irish, teaching Irish. there are you kids now in Derry can go through the whole education system and be taught in Irish and become absolutely fluent in it it makes me deeply ashamed that I've lost so much of my own Irish but by the way that's also spurred me on to actually get back in again and start studying and just bring up my own level of Irish competency again it's our national language we need to preserve it why not?

6:53Feargal Sharkey: and why do you think it is important to preserve a language? I agree but I'm just interested

6:57Zack Polanski: to quote my mother and this goes again back into the politicising of my childhood if the irish lose the language we've lost everything right mrs sharkey 1966 there we go um and then lots of people know you now as a water campaigner

7:12Feargal Sharkey: or a campaigner more widely but you've done a lot on water yeah um it's almost silly to say why has

7:17Zack Polanski: that been so important but why is that so important to you um again it goes back to that upbringing of mine where i've grown up in this world where if you see an injustice a social injustice it was demanded that you confront it. Simply turning the blind eye to things and walking away, that was just never going to be an option. And particularly that world I grew up in through the 50s, 60s, nearly 70s in Derry, that was something you confronted every single day of your life. So fast forward, I've developed a huge passion for fly fishing. Again, going back to the school that I went to, the Christian Brothers in Derry, they taught me how to tie flies at 11 years old.

7:57Zack Polanski: They took me fly fishing at 11 years old. They took me out and taught me how to play hurling and Gaelic football at 11 years old, which is why I have this beautifully crafted nose, which has been sculpted at the end of three feet of ash called a hurl. So for me, there was always that issue. I end up becoming chairman of the oldest fly fishing club in England. A wonderful thing called the Alma Magna Fishery. and fairly quickly becomes obvious that we are effectively going to have to try and take the Environment Agency to the High Court just to get the Environment Agency to do their job. The Alma Magna is two and a half miles of chalk stream in Hertfordshire.

8:37It is now home to the last remaining breeding population

8:42Zack Polanski: of wild brown trout in the River Lee downstream from Hertford. So the last 20 miles of the River Lee, we've destroyed it apart from one little two and a half mile section that for 185 years this year a bunch of men and women have been looking after protecting that population of wild brown trout and there was something going on at the time that was going to devastate if not destroy that population of brown trout and that bit of river hence getting ready to take the EA to the high court so eventually as I like to put it greater minds prevailed and the adults get into the room and we resolved our issues with the EA.

9:20Zack Polanski: And I'm now pleased to say there's more water going down the Amal Magna than we've seen for years. That brown trout population is in incredibly good health and I think have a good foundation now for another 185 years. But it was simply that experience. Why 60 ladies and gentlemen of a certain age who simply want to go fishing on a Sunday morning had to effectively take the environment agency to the high court just to get them to do their job. And that made me very curious. Or as I sometimes explain it, that gave me an itch. And I stupidly, foolishly, naively scratched that itch. And every time I scratched that itch, I just ended up with a bigger itch.

10:04Zack Polanski: And I quickly realised that England in particular is peppered with community groups because I'm not in any way trying to say that I've led the charge on this. I really haven't. There are, for example, the Ver Valley Society, first established in 1976. The first time chalk streams are ever mentioned in Hansard in Parliament was something like 1986-87. The then local MP Peter Lilly, the MP for St Albans, bringing up the plight of the River Ver, hence the Ver Valley Society. so there's one group that's out there raising issues about chalk streams and the whole country the Ver Valley Society the River Chess Association the Friends of the Member of MIMRAM the Windrush Against Sewage Campaign SOS Whitstable the Windrush and Matt Stanek this country was actually people out there for decades doing what was expected of them contacting the local MP writing letters starting petitions and putting their faith that the system would do the right thing by them and provide justice for them.

11:14Zack Polanski: It turned out the system had no intent in doing any of that whatsoever until it took an Irishman to come along with a very bad upbringing and a very bad attitude to simply go, well, can we coalesce these groups? So I am in many ways, yes, I know how to use a microphone, I know how to use a stage, and I've simply been standing on the work and the foundations that those groups have laid before. And has it now become a massive political issue? Well, yes, it has. But what an absolute shame and disgrace that community groups have had to go out there for decades now and stand outside supermarkets, signing petitions, writing emails to MPs and needing the likes of me to turn up and then blow this whole thing up into a non-national issue.

11:59Zack Polanski: What a shame we all had, any of us had to go there.

12:02Feargal Sharkey: I think that's so magnanimous of you because I've met with many of those groups and the people in them and they're amazing. Oh, totally. I think they'd be the first to recognise that you've done a huge amount in this space and to thank you for that without I know you're not claiming all your work but it requires people with microphones and also people like Baroness Jenny Jones but also many other campaigners as well there's a few questions I have there so I want to start with Environment Agency yeah it's one place where I struggle and maybe you can help me with this that I know people who work in the Environment Agency who I really believe are doing the very best they can yeah and it's for system that's a problem and it's for funding that's for

12:34Zack Polanski: problem um okay let's start with the uh the way i normally describe it zach when i run into people from the environment agency wearing a dry suit standing in a river those out in the front line without exception they're incredibly decent people trying really hard to do the best they can and yes they have been let down by those above them now for me you can start getting issues as soon as you get to even regional management, you can start to develop questions. And eventually, if I've been around the world enough, for me in these occasions, you have to start at the board. Because invariably they're responsible for that organisation.

13:13Zack Polanski: They're there to manage the chief executive and the senior management team. So I get it that the EA has to play in a world of politics in Whitehall, but you applied for this job to be on the board. You were appointed by the Secretary of State to undertake and run and oversee the operation of this company. So what do you mean the Treasury cut your budget? Whose fault was that? The Treasuries or you as a board member of the Environment Agency. Maybe you didn't put up good enough an argument. Maybe you didn't put up actually enough time and effort into it. Maybe you did not hire the right executive team that could go into DEFRA, negotiate the proper deal with DEFRA, with number 10 and number 11.

13:54Zack Polanski: Because I get it, number 10 and number 11, they've got hospitals to build and schools to fund and potholes to fill and everything else. There's a lot of demand for that money. So for me, I constantly keep going back to the board and senior management of the EA, and then I have real issues. The law is there, the law is effective, it's never been enforced, and certainly not with anything looking like vigour, enthusiasm or determination.

14:19Feargal Sharkey: See, that's interesting because I would put the blame with the Treasury and with number 10. I'd totally hear your point. But if they don't recognise how important the environment is and how important it is, we could talk about the climate crisis as well, but let's focus on water. Surely if you're the Prime Minister of this country, of the Treasury, and you're looking at where you spend money protecting wildlife and rivers, it should surely be a priority.

14:38Zack Polanski: I'm not in any way trying to exonerate number 10 and number 11. We now know, again, because of the sewage scandal. And let me be clear here to everybody. This issue is not actually about sewage. Right. And it never was about sewage. This issue, my introduction into it was about chalk streams. There's a thing about the British music industry, which has been my adult training and my upbringing. We're phenomenally globally successful as an industry, comprised of two things. This nation, the United Kingdom, has an extraordinary ability to generate generation after generation of young people that are just phenomenally talented, quite brilliantly talented, and create the kind of music the rest of the world wants to listen to.

15:26Zack Polanski: We've also then got an industry that is really good at one thing, and it's not finding talent. We're really good at selling you stuff you didn't even know you wanted in the first place. I know how to sell stuff. so I knew that if I was going to I had this mental image okay I'm going to go and pick this fight I remember talking to my wife and my family about it at the time knowing how much time it was going to consume at least initially and I had a problem where I had this mental image Nick Robson Today programme as you well know if you want to move an issue on really quickly in Whitehall you need to get that 10 past 8 slot on the Today programme and you need to nail it and you've just saved yourself six months work right there.

16:10Zack Polanski: I had this problem that even if I could have talked my way into getting that interview, I've now got to spend 10 minutes explaining to the nation what a chalk stream is and why anybody should care. And I can already hear the editor on Nick Robson's headphones going, God, it's boring. Quick, wind this up. Let's move on. And it was somebody at the EA tipped me off. Feral sewage. And I'm not going to say another word. And it was that then gave me the key that I needed to open that door because now I can go on the national media and go, did you know, by the way, your local water company is dumping your excrement, your human waste, into your local river.

16:49Zack Polanski: Bingo. Everybody in the country's now gone, sorry, what did Fergal just say? Turn that up. Now I've got him. Now I don't have to go into some mad rant for 20 minutes about 860 to 80 million years worth of eulogical development when this country was sitting somewhere down near the equator. That's pointless. So the truth is, getting all of that on board, pulling all that together, that became the real secret because for me, it was about the way water was a reflection on environmental policy that has been utterly dismissed and shown no regard whatsoever. And it was because of sewage, we now know, that 25 million people living in the south of England and the southeast of England are now on the cusp of running out of water.

17:35Zack Polanski: I mean, I'm sorry, what on earth the hell are we talking about? London is now number nine on a list of global cities most likely to run out of drinking water. We're now on a list with Cape Town, Jakarta, Sao Paulo and Mexico City. Well, how the hell did that ever happen? Yes, there's not a single river in this country that isn't polluted. And two of the biggest polluters in that are farming and agriculture and the water industry. Well, what the hell's been going on for decade after decade. We've known about this. So for me, sewage was the way to bring politics and the nation into a conversation I think we clearly very badly need to have about the kind of world we want to create and the kind of world we'd like to live in and like our children to live in.

18:19Feargal Sharkey: There's so many questions from that because I think you're bringing up so many interesting issues here. I want to go in with data centres actually because that's something that the government or people are increasingly building but we know we've got water scarcity. How worried about this are you?

18:33Zack Polanski: Because they're not going to build them. There isn't the water. The EA's current projection is by 2050, we're going to need somewhere in the region of 5 billion extra litres of water per day. That is something like 34, 36 % more water than we currently supply. Right. The water is not there. It doesn't exist. And certainly not in the south and southeast of England. So if anybody thinks they're going to go and build a data centre, and North Norfolk, which I read recently. That's absolute nonsense.

19:05Feargal Sharkey: But you're not worried they're building them now? Like, I've seen the plans. In fact, they're already popping up.

19:10Zack Polanski: Oh, I can tell you of one right now that's near the junction of the A10 and the M25, which I thought was a bit odd. And then I remembered, oh, it's on the banks of the New River. The New River abstracts water out of the River Lee at Hartford and pumps it by via canal down into central London. In fact, it used to come all the way down to just run the corner from where we are, running Sadler's Wells. So that clearly, I'm assuming, whatever company's organising that data centre has done a deal with Thames Water to abstract the water out of the new river and put it back in again. Is that going to be an impact on the new river?

19:46Well, clearly, that supplies, I think,

19:49Zack Polanski: anything up to 20 % of North London's water supply. Well, you can make your own decision about that, whether you want a large American technology company heating your drinking water up, before it's then tipped back into a reservoir in North London again to allow it to cool down before it's down your tap. I think the reality is all of that invariably, listen, we get into a conversation about intent. And I can understand the current government is desperate that we need, and it's true, we as a nation need to find a way to grow our economy. So you're going to do anything you possibly can to help encourage any form of economic growth you possibly can.

20:29Zack Polanski: So if a nice man from the tech company comes along and goes, well, can I build some data centres? The last thing you're going to do is, well, you can, but there's no water to cool the damn things down. You're going to go, oh, yeah, no, absolutely. We'll worry about the water thing later on. I think there's maybe a bunch of tech companies about to discover that there's not quite the level of water available as they would like there to be.

20:49Feargal Sharkey: So can I tell you what I find confusing about you? And this comes back to, like, when you were younger, if you have a position, you've got to defend it. So I'm going to take a position, then I'm going to defend it. I think you're wonderful, and I want to start with that. In fact, we were on a panel together recently. Is this thing flattery before you... Exactly, that's what I'm doing. Screw me. We did an event with George Monbiot, Michaela Loach, Emma Pinchbeck, and you came on at the end and delivered the most phenomenal 10, 15 minutes around the climate crisis, and it was worth perfect, I felt.

21:15Feargal Sharkey: That's very kind of you. And you just said you need to do economic growth no matter what it costs. And I just wonder how you balance these two positions.

21:22Zack Polanski: That's for me, obviously, the point I was making about economic growth, I think it's one of the things we're clearly getting into, is that number 10 and number 11 have become paralysed by this notion that we have to deliver economic growth as a nation. We do. I'm not saying that. They are. My interpretation is that that's what they're saying.

21:40Feargal Sharkey: So you're not justifying what they're saying?

21:42Zack Polanski: Not in the least, because clearly there's any number of occasions I would disagree with it. And one of the actual victims of that is, in fact, the water industry itself. and Thames Water. In fact, one of the real victims of that is Thames Water's customers, i.e. government's absolute stern refusal right now to deal with Thames Water and to, quite frankly, put the thing into special administration if not re-nationalise it, is, I think, because of their blind terror of doing anything to upset the bond markets.

22:15Feargal Sharkey: And what's your response when, this is definitely not my argument, but when people say, oh, you could re-nationalise the water companies, but who's going to pay for that and how expensive is it going to be?

22:21Zack Polanski: Well, listen, here's the thing. There's an awful lot, let's deal with this for a start, government's figure of what was it, 100 billion or whatever. It's nonsense. It's absolutely made up fictitious nonsense. Now, initially, and this again is a matter of hands-on record, when government were first asked, they came back saying that that was a figure quoted in a report done by the Social Market Foundation. It's there in hands-on. That's what the minister told the House of Lords. So when you go and look at that report, you suddenly realise that report had been paid for by five water companies. That may have any influence over the outcome of that report whatsoever.

22:59Zack Polanski: You then look at it and it's based on this thing that Offward have called a regulatory capital value. Now this is this notional made up value of a water company that started out at a kind of reasonable kind of place where I think initially they went when all the water companies were still listed on the stock exchange. Somebody went, well, we'll take the average share price for the first six months and that'll become the base cornerstone value of these companies. There's a logic there. I can understand it. I might not agree with it, but I get it. Ever since then, all that happens is water companies pile as much debt and as much money, as much interest and as much spend as they can to make this number as big as possible.

23:45Zack Polanski: and every year when they've done all of that they then also get to multiply that number by the rate of inflation every year so that calculation right now is that the water industry for example now I've seen a breakdown of it according to that calculation Thames Water right now is worth over £21 billion well I have to tell you the market offered£3 billion 12 months ago and then walked away from that deal I'll do you a favour right now, I'll give you a favour for it so government's whole thing that oh we would have to spend 100 billion it's nonsense if you want to do it here's one way to do it government tonight could amend whatever bit of legislation's gone through parliament tonight i need to amend the audit regulations so i'm now going to force water companies to declare the cost of fixing all of this as a liability on their balance sheet at that point every single water company in this country fails what's called the going concern test they're all bankrupt.

24:42Zack Polanski: Water companies by law cannot go voluntarily insolvent in this country. Any sign of it and all of the assets automatically revert back to state ownership. Simple practicality, you cannot have a receiver trying to sell Manchester sewage works to the highest bidder just because United Utilities has gone bankrupt. So I've now seized control of all of the infrastructure. It's not cost the taxpayer a penny. all the water companies are then left with these shale companies carrying somewhere in the region of £82-83 billion worth of debt well that's their problem I've now seized control of all the infrastructure all of the assets and it didn't cost the taxpayer a penny.

25:23Feargal Sharkey: And we sold them with£0 debt so all that debt they've created over this time.

25:27Zack Polanski: Oh that's been classic case of financial engineering not all circumstances but there's enough examples that debt actually was never invested in the infrastructure was never invested in fixing leaky pipes, upgrading the sewage system. We're now bearing the results of all of that. That debt was paid back out to the shareholders as dividends.

25:47Feargal Sharkey: Yeah. And you have the year of number 10, certainly to an extent. Why are they not doing this? It seems like such a...

25:54Zack Polanski: It's so obvious. It is, for me, it is that rationale that they're so utterly paralysed by anything to do with upsetting the bond markets. simply because of that thing that, oh, we have to, and I've not specifically spoken to anybody in number 10 about this. This is my own personal interpretation that we have to get external investment and international investment into this economy. It's back to the economic growth argument again. We need to grow the economy. The way to do that is to bring it and encourage as much external international investment as we can in the UK. Very good. But it's also GCSE economics because the simple truth of the matter is Thames Water being the example.

26:37Zack Polanski: Up until the end of last year, as a Thames Water customer, something like almost 30 % of your water bill was being used to do nothing more than pay interest and financially maintain and service the level of debt they already had. Almost 30 % of your bill. The£3 billion bailout last year, 800 million of that instantly evaporates on interest payments, service charges commissions and service in that debt though we're all completely mad so we've actually, what we're doing in reality is encouraging the further brutal exploitation of Thames Water's customers who are now simply the victims of a monopoly and a very badly run monopoly in a world of politics that's not actually prepared to deal with the consequences of that situation that we are just brutalising and extorting Thameswater's customers even further.

27:32Feargal Sharkey: And if you're advising them how to deal with the bond markets, because this is a conversation we hear constantly in politics these days, the bond markets ultimately aren't ideological. They just want to see a coherent narrative and to know that... Well, of course they do.

27:43Zack Polanski: But here's the thing. We have elections in this country. Because you're not actually talking, telling me you want to undermine the simple principles and foundations of democracy. The bond markets aren't running in this country. The government we elected is a nation. you're the ones out there. Now I appreciate you may think you're acting in the nation's best interests by cow-towing to the bond market but do you really think? Again, simply because of their poster boy but I can come up with endless examples. Thameswater one of the largest shareholders was the Ontario Pension Fund. They wrote off their whole stake in Thameswater three years ago.

28:19Zack Polanski: So they've now valued their shareholding in Thameswater as worthless, nothing, zero. do you think this actually ever going to really stop the Ontario Pension Fund one of the world's largest global investors coming back and wanting to invest in the UK economy at some point in the future it's nonsense, they say that they won't of course they will they just need the right story, the right accolade the right set of consequences and the right context to make that investment and that's a whole other story that we should be telling so personally I think bond markets were never elected to run this country and government should not be allowing them to run this country.

28:57Feargal Sharkey: For sure. And you mentioned that, I think you said your parents were chair of the Labour Party in the 50s and 60s.

29:03Zack Polanski: My father was chairman of the Labour Party, yeah, in Northern Ireland, in Derry, rather, in the 1950s and 60s.

29:09Feargal Sharkey: I mean, how do you feel about the current version of the Labour Party?

29:12Zack Polanski: Oh, I can get angry about it quite quickly. Feel free to. No, no, it's very, very simple. as a nation did we need an alternative to 15 years that preceded it absolutely without exception and that's one of the things that drove me personally to go out I am president of CIRA the Labour Environment campaign group and I think in the run up to the election I personally visited 65 constituencies how many constituencies do you campaign in?

29:43Feargal Sharkey: I mean probably more than that but to be fair I'm a volunteer I'm not a professional position

29:49Zack Polanski: I think I personally then endorsed something like 85, 86 MPs who are now successful Labour MPs. So was the country ready for change? Did we need a change? Did we need leadership? Do we need a new future? Do we need to be given some hope that there is room to have hope and that next week will be better than last week and next year will be much better than the year we've just finished? Well, somebody in my position may have just gone, well you know what, what do we do with that 167 majority that the Labour government now has and we're now effectively two years into a government and have we squandered those two years and that massive majority because very, very shortly you have to start focusing on the next election and your whole ethos will be distracted and taken someplace else.

30:38So as a long-serving member of the Labour Party

30:42Zack Polanski: can I get angry about the last two years and where we are as a Labour government? Yes, I can.

30:47Feargal Sharkey: and what do you do with that anger I guess is the next question

30:50Zack Polanski: oh well that's listen it's quite clear at this point in time thanks to what events dear boy events that the Labour Party is going to have to go through a very strong re-examination and a very rapid re-examination over the next few weeks and months and we are a matter of weeks away from the local elections I think that if some people manage to survive it until the local elections but I suspect shortly after it there's going to be a whole reappraisal of what's going on because invariably has the Labour Party fulfilled its promise and its commitment so far? No it hasn't and I know the circumstances behind that and I know politics is a hard game but again you volunteer and you take these things on nobody forces you to do any of it and ultimately I would like to see a Labour government going out there and being successful and delivering on the commitments and promises and ensuring that the United Kingdom overall can become a successful, confident, globally recognised, successful nation on this planet.

31:55Feargal Sharkey: Chris Packham here, chief ecologist for EcoTalk. It's been a big day for me because I've come to answer to the boss.

32:01Zack Polanski: If we were a conventional company, Chris, we'd be talking about turnover, rates of return, shareholder dividends, all of that kind of stuff. But you know that we're not a conventional company and our bottom line is a very different one it's about nature it's about birds bats bees ponds beavers tell me how we're getting on well i'm pleased it's not the former

32:18Feargal Sharkey: because i don't know anything about that but i can tell you that eco talk is paying massive dividends for wildlife yes the ponds are in the trees are in the wildflowers are in the bird boxes are up the barn owls are prospecting in the boxes and we've got beavers and more beavers coming dale the company is booming fantastic and subscriber numbers are booming too i mean i think we have

32:38Zack Polanski: quadrupled in six months. We're at 20 ,000 people. And this is what's powering the whole venture, people's mobile phone bills, allowing us to do this for nature. I love it.

32:47Feargal Sharkey: It's absolutely fantastic. Do think about joining up ecotalk.co.uk slash bold politics. Parles-tu français?

32:57Zack Polanski: Hablas espanol?

32:58Feargal Sharkey: Parli italiano? If you've used Babbel, you would. Babbel's conversation-based technique teaches you useful words and phrases to get you speaking quickly about the things you actually talk about in the real world. With lessons handcrafted by over 200 language experts and voiced by real native speakers, Babbel is like having a private tutor in your pocket. Start speaking with Babbel today. Get up to 55 % off your Babbel subscription right now at babbel.com slash acast. Spelled b-a-b-b-e-l dot com slash acast. Rules and restrictions may apply. That new thing? Yeah, we've got it.

33:38Zack Polanski: The Drop by GNC, bringing you all the newness that matters. Handpicked by the pros who actually know what's up and what's proven to work. We keep you on top of the trends and dialed into what's next. Whether you're crushing it at the gym, leveling up your game, or thriving every day. The Drop by GNC is where the latest solutions in health and wellness land first. Non-stop innovation and fresh finds daily.

34:01Feargal Sharkey: Explore what's new and what's next on The Drop by GNC.

34:13Feargal Sharkey: And admittedly, I'm a very biased source, so I accept that in the question. It's good to have this open conversation. Do you see a route back for the Labour Party post-Kir Starmer? Because all the things we've talked about, the systemic issues, I would argue that once the Labour government or the Labour Party have taken money from arms trade, oil and gas, gambling companies, private healthcare, it's not about the people, it's about the money that they've accepted

34:36Zack Polanski: well listen it's not because ultimately what you're really talking about here is intent and leadership and that's invariably that's what everything always boils down to those for me those two simple equations intent what was the other guy's intent what was your intention for asking me in this podcast what was my intention for Green to do it so do we need leadership now more than at any point in the last 3 30 years absolutely without question. Can the Labour Party and its current structure and makeup provide that leadership? There's clearly a huge question mark over that and a debate and a discussion to be had.

35:11Zack Polanski: And I would urge the Labour Party to have that discussion rapidly, to do it sooner rather than later, because we need to find a way to go out there and sell the Labour Party and the Labour ethos. And that notion that keeps me a member of the Labour Party, that society ultimately, for me what is socialism? Society is an obligation to protect the vulnerable.

35:33Feargal Sharkey: Right, absolutely. And something I think we'd undoubtedly agree on is Nigel Farage and reform.

35:39Zack Polanski: I'm very happy to comment about this. The last time I find it appalling that I drive from my home in Finchley down Regent's Park Road heading in towards Golders Green and I see flags flying off lampposts. The last time I saw that kind of behaviour was back home in Northern Ireland. And I have to tell you, that stuff does not end well. And the last thing a Labour government needs, or indeed a Green Party needs, is some form of coalition with the likes of Nigel Farage sitting at a negotiating table.

36:13Feargal Sharkey: Agreed. And to bring the conversations together, you were meeting with these community groups who are doing amazing work around the rivers. Yeah. I wonder what the role in community is in challenging Nigel Farage and reform.

36:25Zack Polanski: community always is because again you're talking to a man that I know people can get kind of quite dismayed at this kind of thing but I'm Fergal and it's a thing I hear constantly yeah but Fergal I'm only a small cog only a small voice I'm just a single individual in a community group in a little village with a minor interest in this I don't have the power and ability to influence the world

36:51Zack Polanski: my father was an attrition my mother was a housewife she raised it. Killed children, her and the school teacher, the poet, the unemployed, the bricklayer, the plumber, sat in my kitchen table frequently during the 1960s trying to plot and figure out how they were going to bring down the government to Northern Ireland. And as a 10-year-old child, I watched close at hand, first-hand knowledge of the plumber, the electrician, the unemployed, the housewife, the school teacher, the poet, bring down the government of Northern Ireland? If my parents and the people of Northern Ireland and the people of Derry manage to do it, what's stopping you?

37:29Feargal Sharkey: That's an amazing answer. And so let's link in there, actually. With Ireland, I would say, is having a particular moment at the moment, particularly with the election of the first female president. They're kind of... Some of the conversations are happening there. How are you feeling about Irish polls?

37:43Zack Polanski: Well, listen, Ireland is... When I say Ireland, by the way, I'm obviously referring to the Republic of Ireland. personally speaking and I'm on again it'll come as no surprise from people from my background that yes has Brexit put the notion of a united Ireland out on the conference table yes it has and I never thought in my lifetime I would actually be able to have a conversation with anybody about the idea of a united Ireland and be remotely taken seriously so for those that push for Brexit yes you have put the idea of a united Ireland in fact for me right now it is a fait accompli it may not be in the next 20 years or the next 30 years but I think we are now looking invariably at a united Ireland part of the reason for that the Republic of Ireland has just utterly utterly transformed from the country that I grew up in that I spent a lot of time in as a child I would spend a lot of time in Donegal in the Gaelta as a child and watching the utter transformation that Ireland I think it was a Bob Geldof referred to as a banana republic back in the 1970s Bob probably would have a lot of kind of support for that vision back then so you've suddenly gone from this not complete slightly lost looking for a future country to one that in 30 years has become the first country in the world at a national referendum to elect its first anywhere in the world female president and that was Mary McAleish and that was 25, 30 years ago.

39:16Zack Polanski: The first country in the world that had a national referendum passed the Call of Marriage legislation. Sorry, what little conservative Catholic Ireland has amended the constitution not once but twice to legalise contraception in marriage and abortion and is now the proud owner of a sovereign wealth fund that I gather we have somewhere in the region of about 26 billion euros sitting in a sovereign wealth fund. So if we'd gone through that journey that rapidly and if you've not been to Dublin recently my god that place is firing in all cylinders. Now that's not to say that Ireland is also facing some of its own social issues and challenges and houses and everything else.

39:55Zack Polanski: It is, but the rapid shift that it's gone through in 30 years has been stunning to say the least. The example I give people, particularly from the loyalist community in Northern Ireland and I understand the loyalist community and their desire to remain part of the United Kingdom But here's just a what-if scenario. You're a young woman from a Loyalist background. You've just graduated from Crings University with a degree in something utterly brilliant, particle physics. You're now faced with a bit of a choice. Some of the highest areas of deprivation in Northern Ireland are now within the Loyalist communities.

40:34Zack Polanski: And we're talking East Belfast, Lorne, Antrim. Do you go back into that area and try to bring that area up? Or do you just go along with your mates and your peers from university and go and get a job in Dublin working for a large multinational technology company being paid 70, 80 ,000 euros a year as a first year graduate? That's a big choice to make.

40:57Feargal Sharkey: And I'm going to caveat this by saying in many ways, Ireland's politics have nothing to do with me. So I'm asking out of curiosity rather than saying what I think should happen. But I can see a scenario where Scotland go for independence. Wales go for independence. and then there's a conversation about Ireland doing its own thing and England doing its own thing.

41:14Zack Polanski: Well, I think Ireland's actually going to trigger it. And I appreciate you getting into the world of philosophy here, but I quite like the philosophies. I'm Irish. I think Ireland's going to trigger it because absolutely with that question, the minute Brexit came up in this conversation, that border was going down in the middle of the IRC. That's just politically, intellectually, philosophically, that's what's going to happen. And that is effectively what's happened. and instantly that then puts people in Northern Ireland instinctively looking more towards the Republic. Northern Ireland, if I remember correctly, has shown more growth than any other region of the United Kingdom over the last 10 years.

41:51Zack Polanski: Is that because they still, as a part of the United Kingdom, have unrestricted access to one of the largest trading markets in the whole of the Northern Hemisphere? That might have something to do with it, I would argue. So Northern Ireland is going there first. So I would then ask the question, what do you then say to Scottish Nationalists when there is no United Ireland? And will that then provoke an even further overwhelming desire and ambition for the SNP and Scottish Nationalists to have their own independence? And then where does that leave Wales? So for those that had an interest in Brexit, for me, the philosophical conversation gets more into, I do hope you appreciate it, you were actually talking about untangling the union when you voted for Brexit and not regaining sovereignty at all.

42:39Feargal Sharkey: And they were very much philosophising then, but then what did the Labour Party do? With what? Well, if that all starts to happen, because obviously they've had a unionist position for a long time, which has been tricky for them in Scotland, should say as well as the SNP, Scottish Greens, of course, are also pro-independence.

42:54Zack Polanski: Listen, again, it's not about the Labour Party at that point in time, because invariably if the majority of people there want this to happen, and I'm not trying to coach Scotland or Wales in this, but Ireland has this wonderfully handy thing called the Good Friday Agreement. And it is a clause in there that it is nothing whatsoever to do with the British government, regardless of what political flavour. It is when the peoples of Ireland, both sides of the border, decide that they want to hold another national referendum as to whether or not there should be United Ireland. That is completely outside the capability, the jurisdiction in the hands, of any government in Westminster.

43:35Zack Polanski: Not that I'm trying to send a big signal and a big hint to Scotland. It's how they may want to approach it. The people of Ireland will decide what's best for them at a point in time of their choosing. I think in the democracy we live in, that's a perfectly acceptable desire and ambition to have.

43:49Feargal Sharkey: For sure. It's really fascinating to think when history books are written a lot longer now, they might have seen Brexit as the turning point for what I would argue is a more progressive, but you can put whatever label you want of countries deciding their own sovereignty and self-determination.

44:03Zack Polanski: I wouldn't disagree with it at all.

44:04Feargal Sharkey: Did you, when Brexit was happening, did you see this coming?

44:08Zack Polanski: To me it was blatantly obvious. But maybe just growing up in Northern Ireland and having that sensitivity, both socially and politically. But to me it was blindingly obvious. I did, out of my own curiosity, then go to talk to people in the world of politics that I know and business and everything else. and everybody I talk to, everybody reached the same conclusion. If Brexit happens, that border is going down the middle of the Irish Sea because you are not simply going to build a 60 foot tall razor wired fence and landmines either side of it on that border between Northern Ireland and the Republic.

44:50Zack Polanski: So just purely commercially, intellectually, economically, politically, Northern Ireland will begin to, and already has looking more towards the Republic. And I think one of the brilliant examples of that recently, it was a very clever move of Leo Varadka, the whole Hermitage scheme, European scheme, students can apply for a grant to go and study as part of their degree courses in another European country. Fantastic thing to be doing. Due to Brexit, all students throughout the United Kingdom lost access to that funding. The Irish government very astutely went, well, you know what, there's two million euros for students in Northern Ireland.

45:30Zack Polanski: We will introduce a little mini Hermitage scheme and we'll put two million euros into it just as a starting fund so that students in Northern Ireland can still have that access and that ability to go and carry out a degree, years worth of study in another European country. Clever bit of politics.

45:46Feargal Sharkey: Pretty smart. And finally, when we look to the future, how hopeful, I guess, are you, particularly around the water companies but the climate crisis that we can take on?

45:56Zack Polanski: In honesty, I've got a lot to say at this point in time about those companies organisations, charities in particular involved in the conservation the environment and indeed the climate crisis. Quite frankly and I'm going to be brutal how I say this I'm trying to think of a way to say it diplomatically It's all politics, you don't have to be diplomatic Quite frankly they're just not up to the job. Right. If we have not example after example in this country over the last two years, three years the planning bill what an absolute disaster that was for every environment organisation, charity what a complete and utter disaster I've been feeding out to the media over the weekend because clearly we are about to face a new water bill rumour has it, it may come after the King's speech if there's a King's speech in May there may well be a new water bill shortly thereafter the environment lobby has got the ability to learn how to do this properly or we're about to forsake the water environment to oblivion for at least the next 30 years.

47:03Zack Polanski: Because there will not be another bit of environment, water legislation for another generation. They need help. They need external help. They need to learn how to do this properly. They don't even know the game they're playing. I'll give you three or four quick examples. They're in the public domain. So you can go and look this stuff up. A company called Hacklett in Mayfair. apparently founded by three people who used to work for MI6 Hacklet provides corporate intelligence according to the Guardian a company called Thames Water have paid Hacklet over a million pound over the last 12 months to do what for them?

47:37Zack Polanski: as it turns out there is a man who used to run Hacklet now is actually investment advisor in number 10 and I believe has been tasked with the job of ensuring there is a market solution to Thames Water i.e. make sure under no circumstances do we have to deal with nationalising Thames water as it turns out we now know, I've recently believed that Global Council Mandelson's company was advising the water industry through the whole passage of the Water Special Measures Bill. Well what were they expecting from the funding that were given them? It turns out, and again this is in the public domain, a former MP Conservative MP, Seema Kennedy, MP for South Ribble, she went on to be Theresa May's parliamentary secretary minister in health minister in immigration she was appointed to the board of OffWAT the water industry regulator in 2020 and I've then recently believed from what I see in the public domain a year later she was then appointed an advisor and consultant to the aforementioned global consultant and Peter Mandelson who had been employed by the water industry during the there's the game that's been played and I'm really really sorry sending some young graduate in the parliament to the house of lords they persuade jenny who will be unbelievably brilliant and jenny will table that amendment but we all know at the end of the day it's an act of futility because that bill will go back into the house of commons government will rock up with 167 majority the whole thing has been nothing more than stage management and there's a whole game being played out there and the environment lobby and here's my challenge to them you're simply not up to this, you don't know what you're doing you need to grow up and you need some help and I'm really happy to tell them where they can find it, but if they don't prepare to face up to their own shortcomings their water bill will be yet another disaster for the environment and ecology and climate change in this country

49:35Feargal Sharkey: I think that was bold politics Virgil, and I think you send a clarion call there for them to sort it out really, it's not acceptable and I often think, you know, who needs conspiracy theories when you can lay it out like that and you can clearly see who's been bought and paid for and what they're doing.

49:50Zack Polanski: It's again back to that thing of intent. Why was Thames Water giving hacklet money? What were they expecting in exchange? Why was the water industry giving Peter Mandelson's company money when government's trying to pass a, what was it, a world-leading transformation of the water industry? What were the water industry expecting, intending that they would get back? It's back to intent.

50:13Feargal Sharkey: Thank you so much. I really appreciate you. Thank you.

50:21Hey, Zach.

50:22Feargal Sharkey: EcoTalk was set up to use its profits to help restore nature. There's a biodiversity crisis going on, and we need bold ideas to solve it. You're a bold guy, Zach. Your audience like bold actions, and we're bold at EcoTalk. We're making a difference at our rewilding sites across the UK. The more people that join EcoTalk, the more great work we can do. So come on, join us. Go to ecotalk.co.uk slash boldpolitics.

51:16Feargal Sharkey: with Babbel today. Get up to 55 % off your Babbel subscription right now at babbel.com slash acast. Spelled B-A-B-B-E-L dot com slash acast. Rules and restrictions may apply. That new thing? Yeah, we've got it.

51:35Zack Polanski: The Drop by GNC, bringing you all the newness that matters, handpicked by the pros who actually know what's up and what's proven to work. We keep you on top of the trends and dialed into what's next. Whether you're crushing it at the gym, leveling up your game, or thriving every day, The Drop by GNC is where the latest solutions in health and wellness land first. Non-stop innovation and fresh finds daily. Explore what's new and what's next on The Drop by GNC.