Why The System Just Isn’t Working | Nadia Sawalha | Mark Adderley | Zack Polanski

0:00Just like you, sometimes on my social media, I see people pop up over and over again as I become more and more aware of them. And the couple today are examples of this. They have been fierce defenders of talking about the genocide in Palestine and talking about taxing multimillionaires and billionaires. And they've been very supportive of me. So it's really great to give them the platform today. They've got their own podcast, Coffee Moaning. This is Mark and Nadia.

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1:15You guys have said to me kind of privately, I'm sure you don't mind me saying it publicly, that you're happy that there's someone to support. Why do you think there's been such an absence in politics of people just feeling like actually there's been no one to support? For me, I just think, and I certainly know this is the case for our young daughters as well, who have also joined the Green Party. That's what we're so grateful for, because they are engaging now in politics where they weren't before. And I just, the lack of relatability. These people just have never felt to me like they know anything about me or what I really care about.

1:49And it's the waffle, the waffle that you can't get through to hear what is the truth of what you're saying. So I mean, I grew up in a household where my mum always said to my parents, my mum, my parents didn't vote. My dad's Jordanian, so he couldn't vote for a while. My mum's my mum's English. And she was like, oh, don't they're all the same. You know, that's how I was brought up. They're all the same. They all lie. They're all the same. They all lie. So I was disengaged for a long while. and then my first boyfriend was quite political so I did a bit of it then but I was just like a vacuous, boozing actress that really just wanted to have a great time.

2:27So that was sort of my early sort of understanding or lack of understanding about politics and then it's been kind of gradual, very gradual for me that I have got interested but I have become passionate since the beginning of the genocide. I have become passionate about it because it has shown me so much. It has awakened me like for so many people. You know, I mean, even that word, the weaponising of woke. And it was actually one of our subs quite a few years ago, wasn't it, Lior? We were doing the thing about talking about woke and she said, why do you say that? Do you know what it means? It means being awake to other people.

3:12And we were like, ever since then, we were like, we need to be more awake, more awake. So I've become properly engaged, I would say, and I will be campaigning for you and all of that since the start of the genocide. For me, I mean, I came from a really quite politicised family. So my mum, who was very left-wing, Labour Party, she came out as gay when I was seven, single parent. and I was on marches for things like pro-choice, I was marching for the teachers, I was marching for minors, you know, all this sort of stuff. You used to go out at night putting up posters to you? Well, when I was seven, in Paddington, yeah, my mum would bundle me into the back of a truck, a van, and we would fly post, you know, feminist Marxism 90 posters.

3:56She'd send about so she didn't get arrested. So she didn't get caught, and I'd have a little balaclava on, and I'd literally be rushing around, and I'd be kind of like, you know, doing all this sort of stuff. So I've always been politically aware. I think for me, the big thing about you was, and for our kids and for us as a family was there was no warmth there was no warmth there was no humanity you're not talking about me here no no no

4:21everything everything we just felt from you immediately was warmth and a kind of yeah this guy this is a this is a guy who's talking from the heart he's not bullshitting he's not saying what he should say. He's being authentic. You know, that word authenticity gets bandied around a hell of a lot. And I just think it's something that when we were in COVID and at our channel, our podcast, our output kind of went up in lockdown. I think we were really alarmed by how there was a zero, zero capacity for empathy, zero capacity for really relating to what people were feeling. We were all, we all just felt like we were being manipulated.

4:57And I think for us, it's been a very sort of fast, actually, in the last two to three years where we've had the wall pulled from all of our eyes, I think, in society as a whole. So when you emerged on the scene... For us, at a point where we were such a low with the Labour Party. We were so low. And yet we'd voted Green at the last election, which was before, you know, when you were going to lead. But I didn't really know why, if I'm honest. I mean, the thing is, I don't want to sit here sounding like I know about politics. But I want to be the person. There are so many people in this country that are disengaged.

5:27There's so many smarmy politicians that want people to stay disengaged so they're not being asked difficult questions. And I say to people all the time, we say this to our kids, ask a question even if you think it's stupid. Ask it anyway, so I don't know this. Oh, no, I still don't understand. What do you mean? So that's very much where I'm at. And I want to encourage people that are like me, that feel they don't know enough to keep asking and to understand that we've been kept. It's handy for us to just be disengaged, actually. It's really interesting you say that because there's an old adage that a politician should never ask a question they don't know the answer to in case it gets turned round.

6:04And part of the reason of setting up this podcast actually was I wanted to ask lots of questions that I don't know the answer to. And while I'm developing my thinking or learning or changing my thinking, the audience can be doing that too. Something that's really struck me about the output you've been putting out, Nadia, and this is not me trying to make it 11, give a comment, but particularly when you've been talking about the genocide, but lots of things, is how present you are with the video. In fact, a lot of the time you're obviously upset, but you're not playing upset. You're not performing upset.

6:31You're just being upset and being comfortable enough to be vulnerable enough to put that out as a video and for people to connect with it. And it's very clear that people are connecting with it. How has that process been for you? As in, do you think about what you're going to say beforehand or is it camera goes on and you're just communicating? It's a great question. It is a good question because what usually happens is I will feel something really strongly. And I will just all day it will be coming in and out of me, won't it, Mark? And I'll say, because I know I've got three seconds. Right. I've got three to four seconds at the beginning to get somebody.

7:11Sometimes I'm raging so much that doesn't work, you know, crazy Arab, which is what people always want to say, it's what they lean into more. So I think about it a lot. I never write anything down. I never get a script. And then I get to a point where I just suddenly disappeared. I'm just going upstairs. And I just put my camera on. I just do it straight away. Right. And that's it. And then I'll usually just do a check with Mark. And I'll just jump in on that because the really interesting thing about this, which is odd, because in a weird way, we've created content together ever since we met.

7:45We met through TV. And when Nadia is about... It's really interesting. It's like, you know, in wildlife, you know that a kind of a mother or something. When a creature's kind of injured or thinking or looking after its kind of cubs, they go quiet and they go still. That creeps into the house. And me and our girls, it's quite an emotional thing, me and the girls know that Nadia will not turn that camera on unless it's something that has really, really reached into her deeply. She'll often run things past me just in terms of, you know, where the more obvious possible, you know, targeted things people might come at her about.

8:28And I'll just be like, no, no, no, you just do. But there's a feeling in the house and there's an awareness between me and the girls. You probably don't ever know this, actually, where we just know you have to be just left and it will come. And it'll often take a huge amount of time. And sometimes it will be two or three hours of a night. You've gone and you've said, I'm going to post something. She might not post anything that night because it just hasn't. And she can't feel, you know, in terms of how it comes out, it's either too traumatic or too difficult, too raw. Well, we just live in a world where we have to be so extraordinarily careful.

8:59And I've heard you talking on this as well. I mean, it's interesting for me as an Anglo Arab and for you as a as a Jewish person that we've both been accused of anti-Semitism. And, you know, what I, you know, right at the beginning, it was constant that I was being called anti-Semitism. But then, of course, as Netanyahu debased the word so much, it's like he got it to a point where people, which I believe is what's made it the most difficult thing actually for Jewish people from where I'm looking because it's a very important word. And he used it for everything, used it for everything, used it.

9:31And we can really feel it now. It comes much less to me. People still think it. But it's not that constant. The tirade of hate was just unbelievable. and you know that that continues and relationships that have been lost and work that's been lost it's been an incredibly challenging two years and incredibly painful for us as a family hasn't it but like Mark if we could have been brought closer the way he's spoken for the Palestinians the way that he's speaking we know the power of a white middle-class man talking compared to me that is like we know that power and we understand that so i think as a team it's been nothing's ever planned you know because everything comes from us organically but i think that's what's been powerful hasn't it and we know we've got each other's back my parents live next door my lovely jordanian dad who's 92 who loves this country more than anything he adores this country and um it's brought us all close to go it's politicized all of us we've understood really really the power of it.

10:41My sister, who's never been into politics, is now very engaged. She loves you. Dean's even joined the Green Park. You're welcome. And so it's been hard, but I am a much, much richer person. Much. I've lost money, I've lost work, but oh my God, I would not go back to not having this feeling, not feeling solidarity. I've never felt, I mean, I've always been the person, you were an actor, I'm an actor, and I was all this person going, excuse me, it's just really difficult. We can't all have a pizza. There's 20 of us. No, we've done 10 shows. You know, I'm always a person that would stand up for people, but never like this.

11:18And I love solidarity. I love being on those marches. I love the power and the incredible people I've met. We've made so many amazing new connections with people. So, yeah, so it's shifted us completely. But I would say, but I've seen it. It's hard. It's hard. It's been a really hard. Hard to stand up. I mean, all of this is the caveat, nowhere near as hard as it is, of course, for everyone in Gaza and the West Bank. That's why everything is easy. And now increasingly Americans. I mean, you know, God almighty. But, you know, seeing its toll on you. But there is a kind of nonverbal understanding between the two of us.

11:56I'm not saying this is the way it carves up at all. I'm one of those people who, you know, I'm a director. I make films and I'm interested in how do we, and that's what I love about what you do, how do we kind of literally sort of surgically pull apart your so-called logic and your so-called system you know at the age of 55 having seen having just been in left-wing politics most of my life and surrounded by it to have someone who is unafraid when you go out there to just sit in your truth and it reminds me of something that I really wanted to share with you years ago I did a show where we used to with Nigel Slater where we would interview actors famous people for want of a better expression.

12:35John Hurt came on, the actor, and there was a moment between takes and he was like, you know, he talks to you in a way that you thought, God, this guy knows me. This is a mark. He said, why is it every, are we allowed to swear? Why is it everybody thinks us actors are fucking involved in lies? We're involved in truth. We're only involved, and I've been talking to our eldest daughter as she's training to be an actor, and I'm like, look to Zach Polanski. It's the same concept. He stays in the truth. He stays in the truth. And it's this idea that John Hurt was going on about, why does everyone think that because we can act and because we can learn lines, da-da-da-da-da.

13:12And that's what we've lost. That's what we've lacked. That's what we haven't had in politics. And that's why someone said to me the other day, he never gets tripped up, though. I said, no, because he's not concealing anyone. He's not bullshitting. But you know what annoys me? It's like when I'm talking about you and I'm talking about the Green Party and I talk about the things that I like that you're saying as a party people always do this thing where they go yeah but that's fine aren't they because they're like you know they're not actually in there and it's so disheartening because and you actually said didn't you on the way here what it's like for Zach to have all this hope on him it must be a bloody nightmare at three o 'clock in the morning do you feel the pressure of that?

13:52it's really interesting you say that because over Christmas was when I felt it for the first time I think I was elected and it's been so busy Yes. And I'm aware that this conversation centers a lot around me, which is lovely. It's my podcast, but I'm going to shift it more to the issues, as Tony Ben would say, rather than the personalities. And I think I've been so busy focusing on the issues that I hadn't really had that moment to land. Now obviously it's been very surreal. You'll be a lot more aware of this than I was, but people stopping you everywhere all the time, no matter what you're doing, thanking you or saying, I feel hope.

14:24And it's gorgeous. So it's not like I wasn't feeling it. That's huge. but it almost feels, ridiculous is too strong a word, but a bit of out of body, like someone does it. And I'm always very grateful, but I've not really felt it. And I think at Christmas, I just sat down with my boyfriend and we just thought about the year and we just had a real moment. And also, I'm sure you two have this, but when you talk about your partner in public, you're a bit like, oh, I don't know how, I'll have their permission to tell this part of the story. So I'm going to... I'm a loose woman, are you joking? Is there anything they don't know?

14:53But he had a teary moment over Christmas. where he just said it was so lovely on Christmas Day and Boxing Day that everything felt normal for the first time in a long time. He said it was a bit like it all went away. And then he collected himself straight away and said he felt like he was being selfish because actually we were both in this moment that was for the people we care about, the people we know who we care about, but the people we don't know that we care about, the country and the world if we're going to be big about it. And he talked about it being maybe, or these are my words, It's like almost a sacrifice to go.

15:24You lose some of your private life because you go, actually, there's an important thing to be done here. And then within moments, collected himself, and he absolutely loves meeting people who often comes around the country with me. And that's just an absolute joy for me because I'm biased, but he's for course. I know, you love him so much. I love him, I actually love him. What I love about the quote you said is, when I was first elected, lots of journalists kept making my point about being a public speaker or learning lines. And I genuinely think sometimes those are two things that hold me back.

15:54Because actually there's the odd moment where I find myself, if I'm answering a question I've answered 50 times, I'm like, oh, actor brain is good, but that was almost performer brain rather than actor brain. I'm always trying to turn down performer brain and go, actually, exactly what you said, it's so well put. Just acting, the best acting is feeling something authentically and then communicating it under a different given circumstances. it might be that you're in Narnia or it might be that you're fighting Lady Macbeth or whatever it might be but actually it's still a communication of authentic truth to send out there and yeah I feel like journalists sometimes not all journalists but struggle with the idea that actually it's just telling the truth but that's my new sport now I love watching you be interviewed by the mainstream media it is my sport it's like let's I don't I mean because I know I'm pretty much along you really pissed me off you were so patronising but there's this sort of supercilious patronising like they're doing, like they need to look after you.

16:48And you're like, these people are so spectacularly threatened. And I think one of the things we love about our channel, and in a weird way, what you were just saying then about you and your partner, I can really identify with that because, of course, nothing we do private is ever private because everyone, you know, EastEnders, Loose Women, everyone sort of knows what I've been doing that week because you talked about it on Loose Women. And, of course, we have a huge following and we have a hugely engaged following, which is what we love about talking to you now is when we announced that we were on our channel voting green it was a really seismic moment for us because um and it felt maybe it felt bigger to me than it was to you because having been a labor supporter all my life i thought and had that weird bump with jeremy corbyn and then keir starmer what the hell has happened to him anyway you know that moment where we said we're voting green for our community and the and the channel and for the people who follow us it was a huge moment but it was also a huge private moment as well where it was like wow.

17:46We're committed. We're committed to something new, there is something new and this was before we then had the double whammy of you coming on board and that was what kind of galvanised our following our audience and I know that they're all kind of on that journey with us too which is nice. Which is a responsibility for you guys too as well. Yes exactly, in a much smaller way. You said to me do I feel it but you say smaller way but it's still, I think it's relative to it's your personal representation, it's who you are, it matters to your identity, and I think these things are all pretty personal.

18:16What do you say to people when they say, oh, it's all right for the Greens to say whatever they want because they're not in power? I say without hope we have nothing. Right. Because then that in itself is what the powers that be want us all to feel. Like when I think back to when I was a small child and my mum would say, don't ever vote, they're all the same. And that disengaged me. It was like, no, I want to fight for change. I've got we've got a 23 year old and an 18 year old. And at the moment, the world looks pretty bleak for young people. And I want to I want to make them believe in hope, because if we haven't got that, what have we got?

18:54We might as well give up now with the state of the world. Now, if we can't, even if it's just pinholes of light, we need it. For sure. I mean, I think the thing that I feel I get sort of asked or challenged on is, well, they can say all this stuff. and it's easy to promise all this stuff. I go back and go, every single leader of every Conservative Party, Labour Party, Farage is doing it now. There's no specificity there. And what I say to the girl and what I come back with is the Greens are offering a new way of thinking, a new way of doing business, literally business, as well as business in politics.

19:31I think it really appeals to them. I don't think there should be any billionaires. I don't understand why there are billionaires. I don't know who needs that much. And as I get older, I want less and less and less. You know, we even talk about setting up a commune. It's like most people apparently get more conservative as they get older. I just I cannot bear this. I cannot bear that that that people are living in poverty in this country. I cannot bear. I love that stat you always give about. Well, what is it? the 50 richest families or whatever it is I'm not a very good with one because I was like that it always resonates with me I was like what really God I mean I knew we were out of kilter but this is insane and I we live we live a good life we're blessed we work hard we have a lovely home we have everything but it doesn't sit comfortably with me because I don't like people having less I think I might be becoming a communist right I do want more people I want it to be just a bit more levelled out Well a lot levelled out.

20:36And made the joke about people going more conservative when they got older and there's been loads of evidence that younger people are voting Green Party in record numbers. Honestly, every time I say it publicly, the amount of messages I get from people in their 60s, 70s, even 80s and 90s saying, don't forget about us. We're a young Green Party team. So I think it's a little bit of a myth, this idea of people getting more conservative. I think particularly in this generation, people have watched for the last 15, but longer than that back to Thatcher and gone, well, none of this has worked, so we need to do something differently.

21:05No, I mean, mine, for example, I mean, it's weird, isn't it? I grew up, although my mum was very left wing, my grandparents were extraordinarily right wing. I mean, you know, Thatcherite, all the rest of it. But I do remember my nan, towards the end of her days, came back to this idea that it can reach older and it can skew older. Despite her very right wing, the things she would say, I mean, we would just reach for fire exits. You just couldn't bear it. You know, she was just classic Tory. But I remember when the Brexit vote happened and she said, oh, I'm not voting. And I was like, why are you not voting?

21:38She said, well, why should I decide? She was Staffordshire. Why should I decide what young people are going to happen to young people? And I was like, oh, my God, Shangri-La. That was her one big selfless act. So it's encouraging to hear that there are more older people who are drawn to it too. Yeah, I love it. Are there other things that you disagree about politically and how do you kind of negotiate? That's a good question. I didn't know I was going to be doing couples therapy. No, that is a great question. I don't think so. And I think, you know, we've got a very fiery, at the moment it's all been like we're getting divorced because I said I had a row on them.

22:08We have a very fiery relationship. You know, we will have big rows, like I storm off and I smash the door and things like that. But why our marriage lasts is because fundamentally we think and feel the same. We have the same sense of fairness. We cannot bear injustice. We are not driven by things, are we? We don't care. Oh, is it a black car or is it a white car? You know, things don't bother us. We don't care about design. We just, we care passionately. And we're both fascinated by the human condition as a director, as an actress. You would know that. So people fascinate us. That's my hobby is people.

22:46I find people just incredible. So we don't really. We are completely aligned, actually. I mean, it's a good question. I just realised. I don't think we don't do it. And I'm sitting here kind of literally racking my brain about things that we disagree about. No, not politically. Not politically at all. And I think in terms of values, in terms of kindness. I mean, the terrible thing is, is that you use terms like kindness and empathy. I mean, I was doing coffee moaning this morning and I was talking about the zero empathy in the American leadership and all this kind of stuff. And people need people.

23:14There is an appetite for warmth and humanity and empathy. You know, and I think we are forever connected in that. And that's been our connection. We have a very, very strong relationship with our followers. And activism or whatever. And we talk to them and that's what. we're not the numbers we're not like oh god we need to have this millions or whatever subscribers or whatever it's about we have real connections with the people that follow us and we have like how many times have people said to us over the last two years we wouldn't have been engaged at all in what's happening in the genocide and that is just it's just amazing you know like what is a social media influencer you know that that really is like that's been a beautiful thing hasn't it?

23:53Not we don't want people to agree with us but to just question stuff a bit. It's cool right? It strikes me it's really empowering too because people often assume if people are very involved with politics or getting more involved that they must be depressed or hopeless all the time. But actually without putting words in your mouth I find there's something very empowering about going even if it's disappearing for a couple of hours to make a video and then putting a video out there there's something really cathartic about going It's meaningful. You're connecting with people. It's so meaningful. I found something that we might disagree on.

24:20Not disagree on but I And this, in fact, was something I really wanted to ask you about, actually. The idea of, I think the word hope has come up a lot around you, the Green Party, our political system. I mean, I think one of the differences between the two of us is I'm a bit of a fatalist. I'm a cup half empty. I want to believe the world is full of good people. I think there's more good people than bad. Yeah, she thinks there's more good. And I don't think there are more bad people than good, whatever that means. But, you know, because they necessarily want to be bad or even know they're bad.

24:48But I don't share your belief in potentially positive outcomes, which theoretically would mean I don't believe in the democratic political. If I had a major concern, and I do think we differ in this a bit, and it's a concern not I have for you because I know you look after yourself. But I do think how can I literally sometimes think how can we how can I think this through to help? This so-called democratic system isn't democratic. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. And I've been banging on for years, and I'm so pleased it's such a kind of key part of what the Green Party is about, proportional representation.

25:21If I have someone else say to me, oh, you don't get strong leadership, you don't get strong government, hang on a minute. Oh, it led to Hitler getting in in Weimar Germany and all this kind of stuff. I just, you know, yeah, I mean, I just worry about how you can actually make what you want to do happen in this system, because it's a fraudulent system. Well, you want to change the system, right? Yeah, well, I think there's maybe three things there I want to respond to from the last few minutes. So one was about being in power. I think one job I have to do and the whole Green Party has to do is demonstrate where we are in power in councils and we're doing good things.

25:54So I read an article last week in Bristol, the Green Council have built more affordable homes than in living memory. And I think often there's this story that Greens don't build homes, but actually the real story is Greens don't build luxury, unaffordable buildings that people don't live in. And we do build council homes and people. But yeah, I can say that till the cows come home. The important thing is to be able to go, look, here is X example and you can see it's being done. So I think we've got a job to do to build that. The second thing is there's a writer and journalist, Rebecca Solnit, who has this amazing quote around hope, which I'm going to butcher, so I am paraphrasing.

26:23People can Google themselves. She says that hope isn't buying a lottery ticket and waiting for your numbers to come up. Hope is grabbing the axe, seeing the door that's the obstacle and banging it down. So it's like taking action together in solidarity. I always feel tricky about being a green and talking about axes and banging doors. I have an axe in my full bag. I have an axe. I've got an axe. Let's say it's a metaphorical axe. Yeah, no, I get it. Don't worry, I'm not going to bring an axe in. And the door is on by them. In fact, damn it. Yeah, it doesn't land in your lap. No. Right? It's like any relationship.

26:53Like I would say, the thing I hate most is when people say, oh, God, you've got such a lovely relationship. Oh, it's got such a perfect relationship. No, it's perfect in its imperfections. And any relationship, even if it's your relationship with hope, you have to work towards it. You have to work and you have to keep believing in it and you have to keep, and you know, you falter. Certainly I've had some really dark days recently, especially over what's been going on in America, specifically over the last few days and the age of barbarism as Mark calls it. But no, no, just keep believing that we can.

27:27The power of people, I've tasted solidarity. I've tasted it. And I believe if it just kept spreading and spreading and spreading and spreading, all amazing things could happen. Oh, I got goosebumps. This is the power of a communicator. And then on proportional representation, I've gone from your beautiful, rousing speech to a very technical. I want the technical. Yeah, it's true. I've got that. This is good. Before I was leader, I used to talk about proportional representation obsessively. In fact, there was a running joke at one point in the Green Party. I couldn't go to a microphone without saying proportional representation.

28:00And I hardly talk about it anymore at all. There's a very specific reason. And that's because I think at one point, Labour, but more widely centre and centre-right, kind of have weaponized it by going, oh, the Greens are lovely, but you can't vote for them until we get proportional representation because they can't win under first pass for post. So what I've sought to do is demonstrate that we can and we do win under first pass for post, which we got in the last election where we got four MPs despite getting nearly two million votes. But I think at the next election, if people keep joining and stories keep getting out there, we can win a big bulk of MPs on the first pass for post.

28:29And then it's absolutely time to turn to proportional representation, the first available opportunity, which for me would be day one. But it feels like in this campaigning mode at the moment, when people hear proportional representation too often. They switch off because they've been brainwashed too. Yeah, and they also hear, oh, I love the Greens, but I need to vote for them after we get proportional representation. And we can't do things that way around. We'll never get proportional representation. So we need to win under first pass for post and then make a fair voting system, not because it benefits for Greens, because we're demonstrating it doesn't.

28:55We can win under first pass for post, but because it's a fair voting system for everyone. And I think that's the way to do it. Now, this might seem like a stupid question, but I'm going to ask questions. I'm going to ask questions, even if it sounds stupid. As long as I can give a stupid answer. Is there any way you could win? As in government? Yeah. Well, you'll remember Jo Swinson, that she made that huge mistake where she said, I'm going to be prime minister, and then promptly crashed everything and lost her own seat. So it's the closest I get to a politician to not answer that question. By the way, but I will.

29:24How did you do that? But I will answer it. I'm just, I'm recognising I'm not answering it directly. It's not the aim right now. So I think we actually will see a green government in the future. And that's where I want to work towards. Yes. I think at the next election, though, the aim really isn't for a green government. I think that is too much of a stretch. And I know people will criticise me. They do sometimes. They go, be more ambitious. We will get behind you to get a green government. But I just think where we're at right now, and it's only where we're at right now, this answer might change in a few months.

29:51You might come back on and go, it's time. But it's a difficult world at the moment where people don't have patience, isn't it? So that's why people are saying that to you. Because it's like we know, you know, it's like me with my videos. I've got three seconds to catch you. It's like, oh, well, we've got to wait a bit longer. and we don't have patience about anything anymore so i suppose that's why it is but actually i was listening to a podcast about america and the way that they work and the way that they have these very long plans you know the soft power and then they come in and they take it and i was like god that's so interesting isn't it we don't really think of it like that we we are so programmed to go next four years next four years next four years and actually we have got to shift our thinking in that yeah and think longer term i mean i i can i get kind of why you're saying I think my take on it is go for gold because I think we are what still four years out, three and a half years out from a new election.

30:42Well no but I mean look how much has changed to now and then look at how unfortunately things are rapidly changing in the global situation in America. We're looking at countries on tipping points and I think when it comes to our political system I think we under and this is me going to be a positive here I genuinely think my My ambition for the Greens, or for you, is that you maybe don't win outright, but you win such a sizeable amount that you're not the kind of Lib Dems to the Tories in any potential coalition. You're actually either an equal or potentially slightly larger member of that coalition government.

31:19And then you really can start to change the system. Which over 30 % of people on YouGov said this week they would support that exact arrangement. Exactly. Greens as Prime Minister with a Labour coalition, which I thought was interesting that 30 % of people said that's actually the desired outcome. What do you think's happened to Keir Starmer? What has Keir Starmer? Just like chatty, not like, what's happened to him? Well, so I had a debate with Keir Starmer in 2015. I know. It was at a university and we were talking about cannabis and he was so deeply authoritarian in his response to it that the audience started to boo and he started to get more and more kind of flustered about it and I saw the Keir Starmer that we've got today.

31:59Now the flustered, that's the perfect word, he's flustered. Well he's flustered but he's dead in his eyes. I do apologise to be so quiet. The man is dead. The man is dead. I find him the most sinister example of a politician we've ever had in this country and it's because of his ordinariness, it's because of his ineffectiveness and it's because he's got an absolute, absolutely no need or compulsion to try and even step towards understanding anything anyone is saying to him. I think that's made so much worse because he was a humanitarian lawyer. For me, it's made it so much worse. So much worse.

32:38Because it's like, I can't forgive you at all because you know the score. I was being too diplomatic. You've both wound me up now to be... We should be incredibly annoyed and I saw someone else put it last week around Venezuela, that the fact that he was a human rights lawyer, but not just a human rights lawyer, a globally acclaimed one that was really respected, showed that at no moment did he ever believe in what he was doing. Exactly. Precisely. Precisely. And so when he classed what happened as a genocide in Serbia, Serbia, that's right, you know, what was going on for you there? Who did you need to do that for?

33:13How was that serving you? Because it doesn't serve you now. He's a totally conditional human rights lawyer. It's totally finished for me. The Labour Party is just totally apart. And I go to Stanford, this is a bit more difficult because I have a bit more time for Sadiq Khan. But I had a conversation with Sadiq Khan that went semi-viral where I asked him if what was happening in Gaza was a genocide. Yes, I remember. And for six minutes he refused to answer. I heard that. He had six minutes on the clock. And he just kept accusing me of social media, of performative. And I was like, there's nothing performative about this.

33:41I'm just... Because you have a mayor of London. It's important you show this statement. And he just refused to answer it. He got a big backlash and then I was gonna say a week later, but actually it was three days later. We're on a podium together. He was speaking and I was about to speak. And before I could get the microphone, the first thing out of his mouth is he said, what's happening in Gaza is a genocide. Now, look, I don't want to be churlish. I'm pleased that he got to that position. But also, again, the cynicism. You didn't get to that position until you had a backlash. And it feels like politics by focus group, even on a matter of life and death, for so many people.

34:13that's why you having grown up in a Jewish and I believe a Zionist household is just it's just so beautiful and it's so important because this isn't about religion and it's so easy and these leaders across the world are manipulating the beauty that is I'm not, I don't have a faith but I know that both religions both Islam and Judaism has beauty in it And I've learned more about the beauty of Judaism, because I didn't know anything about it, by the Jews that have stood up and walked alongside in the marches and spoken up and amazing people like a Jewish voice for peace. And we've learned so much.

34:58And you being able to stand in that chair. First time I ever saw you, I only noticed you because you had a T-shirt on with something about genocide. And I'm like, oh, who's that? Oh, he looks like a politician. That's literally how I did. And, you know, and that is so powerful because I know from what we've gone through for speaking up what that means for you. You know, that's I don't think a lot of people. Well, no, many people will. But there's a lot of people that won't know what that actually means to do that. And so that I will forever be loyal to that truth because you stood in your humanity and you went, this is wrong.

35:40And anyone that can't say that now, anyone that can't say that what is happening there is wrong. In our thousands, in our millions, we are all Palestinians. Whatever we can watch there and ignore, we can now watch with ICE agents in America. We can watch in Venezuela. We can watch. It's the same. Farage is going to bring them in. You shared a bird. There was a Daily Mirror story the other day. The ICE squads are coming. We've been saying that. We've said that. We've been saying that a lot. We've been really engaged in the ICE squads from day one. We have quite a large American following on our platform.

36:08Which has really grown, hasn't it, last year. And people, you know, we always, we talk about America a lot now on our podcast. We never did. And we kept saying it's because we have to watch what's happening here. Don't sit here. Freedom was lost for them very quickly. You know, you get freedom by watching it like a hawk and protecting it. Well, it's interesting because I spoke to Laura Koonsberg this morning. She was interviewing me for a piece that she's writing about the ice squads. And one of the things I said was, it's more about, sorry, I kept the link between Keir Starmer and Donald Trump.

36:35As he pointed himself in a corner. I'm like, absolutely. but also it's nice to be able to Nigel Farage has been very quiet in the last 24 hours which is quite uncharacteristic for him choice of his word on it unorthodox that's an interesting word isn't it because it's kind of like unorthodox a bit dangerous because you said at least Farage said unorthodox no no no my point was that at least he said and this is an interesting thing about reform and green I've said somewhere on one of our podcasts So I remember one morning thinking the wellspring of support, in a sense, comes from a similar place.

37:14People feel disenfranchised. People feel unheard. The political system isn't articulating most people in this country's daily frustrations, feelings, fears, whatever. Certain sections of society are being played in a certain direction to hate. Others feel hope. and I think we were the first kind of podcasty kind of political, daily political thing to sort of talk about the fact that wellspring comes from the same place. It's the same sense of disenfranchisement. And my belief now, actually, I'm becoming more and more hopeful as we do this discussion, is that the speed of change, the speed of a reversal on politics, the speed of the reversal on how people feel and think of things, I think really could work in your favour in a way that, I'm not saying you're underestimated, but you've got to play it, you've got to be careful in what you sort of think you can achieve.

38:01I personally think you're going to achieve far more than any of us would like to think I loved your Bristol quote, I'm going to be telling everyone about that I want to see these houses because as we know hate people on the boat hate the immigrants and keep your eyes off us and the way that we are feathering the pockets of these millionaires and these billionaires let's keep you poor, let's keep you uneducated let's keep you eating bad food. Let's keep you doing all of that and let's keep you angry with this group of people here because then you won't have solidarity and you won't ask us, what about the houses you were going to and what about them?

38:39And so it's speaking to, because we say what happens to the North, what happens how would they come? Is this just a middle class in the Green Party? The job is to make people really understand that your lives would be better if we take a bit from the bastards that have been dividing you the whole time. For sure. and I think what speaks to your point I've never said this out loud actually so you've got an exclusive out of me the day I was elected leader of the Green Party we thought what are the targets by the end of the year so we had three months to go and someone said to me why don't you go for 100 ,000 members and we were at about 60 ,000 members that time and I thought 40 ,000 in three months is just like I don't want to say that because it's a target of course we ended with 185 ,000 so smashed it and the other one was poll ratings we're polling between 6 and 10 % can we get to 10 % regularly by the end of the year.

39:27We're now sometimes at 19%, 20%, but always above 15%. So you're right. Even where I kind of internally went, this is where I want to get to. We got to it so much quicker. So I do think there's a fair challenge about not underestimating where we can get to. But it's the same thing of not... But you're also being honest, you see. I like that. I like that. And the other thing I would say just to distinguish that there may be the same wellspring for reform and green. The difference is that reform is a fake authenticity. it's an entirely fraudulent and if we want to use the analogy of actors badly acted they're acting, they're not being and you're being Farage standing on this stage weird isn't he he's a bit lunatic lunatic why do he and Trump fancy themselves as stand up comedians there's something really weird about obviously they're not they're not diagnosed sociopaths and clearly only in my own opinion they're sociopaths but there seems to be this need to be seen as stand-up comedians and like you always say on instagram oh that's interesting why are you talking about but what they're trying to do if i'm so easily dismissed because i'm a lunatic or a weirdo or whatever it is why why am i even coming into your brain but the wonderful thing is you're living rent-free in their brains and i love that you know the more i the more i see like well i think you're on uh what's that the show on Channel 4, The Last Leg, you know.

40:55They think they're funny. That was like a fever dream. Wasn't it? It was great. It was so entertaining. It really goes on with Judy Love. I was so annoyed. I was saying to you, Judy looked after me so well. I'm not ever grateful for Judy. She was in Lewis Women a couple of days later and I was like, what's all this? That's my Zach. I mean, I think one of the other things they don't have, Trump and Farage don't have, and it's a weird thing. They're not cool. They're not cool. They're not cool. and it sounds weird what is cool what is coolness you know and again what was the thing was john john hark keeps coming up he said i try i don't be cool he said uh the thing is i try not to be cool and he said that's kind of cool you know it's like not trying not over not over exerting yeah exactly

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42:49When you keep talking about hope, there's one name that keeps coming up to my mind. And I caveat this with, like, I think we've got to be careful that we don't find saviours. And I'm not saying that you do that. I realise that you're recognising the work I've done and saying, here's our work and what we're contributing. And I hope everyone can do their own bit in their own way. And we want to know what more work we can do. We want to know what we can do. For sure. And I think Zoran Mandani has incited, like, a global kind of excitement. I listened to his speech ten times. It's just amazing. It's astonishing.

43:15Well, I feel it makes this whole conversation not abstract, too. We've now seen someone who's one power by showing absolute solidarity to marginalized communities, focusing relentlessly on the cost of living, so not being distracted by kind of culture war issues, but just saying, no, I'm not going there, I'm just showing solidarity. And in the coldest water possible. Never in a million years could, would you think, a Muslim, in that climate, it's just insane how that happened. And I think that's such a good point. And it is what we should keep saying. But it's further evidence. It's further evidence.

43:48It's further evidence that we will, you are going to win. No, I promise you, I think you'll be surprised. Well, I mean, because, well, yeah, we want to be there too. But, I mean, you know, I think his story is quite phenomenal insofar as the, you know, again, in America, in New York, in that culture. I mean, if that can happen in a weird way, what we're hoping to do here isn't even as extreme as that. I think even if you look at the really negative, terrifying, petrifying things that are going on in America and where else, you know, it's like you've got the extreme of what happened in the Mandami.

44:29You've got the extreme of what's happening. You've got ICE agents shooting people in the face. We've got all of this. We never would have thought this six, seven months ago. Right. So even the really negative, terrifying extreme gives you hope that it can go back that way. Why can the pendulum only swing one way? It could swing the other way. It's just as easy. Not just as easily, but there's possibility. There's chance. There's a chance we can bring the world back. Here's a question. We were talking to our dear friend Miranda over the weekend. She's a huge supporter again of the Green Party. And we were wondering not whether the word green is the elephant in the room, but whether the word green is the thing that I see or feel or find that people who are trying to kind of unpick you and you, I mean, us as well, you know, oh, well, you're not really, you can't be taken seriously, it's all idealism, it's all, you know, they haven't had the keys of power.

45:20No one's had the keys of power properly, really. Everyone's a caretaker for the same system. But whenever they say all of that, they do lean into the word green like it's a one policy party. And I think that was why... But that's why, you know, he never really talks about the green. No, no, no, absolutely. but that was why it felt like such a seismic moment just for me personally when I said I'm voting Green was it was something I'd obviously held about myself about the Green Party. It's important, it's always been important, the environment and climate change, but there's always that accusation, well you're only dealing with one topic or one theme.

45:51Obviously you're not and I think your success is… Well if we've got a few of them back in planning. Well exactly. I think there's a few things there. A journalist tried to catch me out recently because we sat down for an hour's interview. I won't name them because I think the piece hasn't come out yet, but they clearly wanted to do an hour just on the climate crisis and the environment as a deep dive. And I think they thought that was going to throw me. Here's the spoiler. I love talking about the environment and the climate crisis. It's one of the single things we need to really, really talk about.

46:15And the reason why I don't talk about it so much is the exact reason that you say. And at the same time, it's a really, really important issue. But what I'd say to people is we can't get over that issue by changing a name or not talking about it. Where I think we can tackle that issue, though, is by going, if we have an equal living standards, if people feel like they're being paid for their work, if they feel like there's a just transition, so if we're closing down industries in oil and gas, for instance, but creating new jobs in renewable energy and community work, etc., and people are being paid properly in trade unions, so they're getting dignity at work, etc., then it becomes much easier and possible to tackle the climate crisis because you're coming from a place where people are going, I'm not in this scarcity mindset, where you're pointing at small boats and I'm worried about people who are fleeing their life taking something, but actually you've got a base where you go okay now let's talk about the climate crisis now the fair challenge though is we can't wait until we have a more equal society to tackle the climate crisis so we've got to kind of do these things at the same time but I believe in storytelling terms the first chapter of the story is we live in a very unequal society let's start taxing multi-millionaires and billionaires and redistributing money and that's what we just have to keep pumping out because what people hear is I haven't got what all the other people have got and it's the immigrants fault no you haven't got what you should have because there are fucking fat cats.

47:30The fat cats have got what you need, not the immigrants, you know. And so if we could just turn that, turn that anger and hate and that ruling by dividing that's gone on for so long to that. I think Venezuela has really demonstrated this too. It's about US militarism, but immediately it was about oil and gas as well. So actually you can't separate the climate crisis from the big inequalities. Now, I know you guys get this. I think the challenge to Miranda is still a fair enough challenge that we've got to communicate that more. And I think we do that through storytelling, through videos, through keep kind of chipping away.

48:04I think sometimes too, I'm not talking about Miranda now before she gives me a statement. I love you Miranda. I love you Miranda. Is sometimes I think people are stubborn and I think that's fine because we have cognitive bias. So we've always supported a party, whether it's for Labour Party and to let go is really traumatic and difficult for people. And I get it, especially for minority or immigrant communities who, like in the 60s and 70s, the Labour Party had their back. So there's still like a loyalty through family through that. And I think we don't win that over by just telling them they're wrong.

48:38I think we just need to keep turning up and demonstrating the difference and going, actually, are they serving you or are you better over here? By action. That takes time. By action. I think I also, just having a thought there, when I was at university and a friend of mine was taking me to Marxism 90 and then I had a friend of mine who said to me... What's that? No, no. No, a friend of mine, yeah, no, exactly. And it was just, everyone was rowing with each other. I was like, let's just get on board with the same argument. That was one of my upsets around your party, the Corbyn party, was, oh, my God, this just doesn't look good.

49:05This is really bad optics. But a friend of mine said, oh, we should, I know what we need to do. We need to, and he was left-wing, we need to vote Tory. He said, we've got to make things worse. So I've just paused and I've just thought, hang on a minute, we need Keir Starmer to stay there. He's such a liability as well. He's a continual, continual, constant liability. I mean, I'm joking, but, you know, he's so spectacularly bad that you kind of, you know, if Yvette Cooper came in, all the others that are there in the wings, it's just such a soulless, noncommittal, complicit, unable, castrated government.

49:40So do you mean rather than him be replaced, let him get as bad as he can? Because then people that would never turn to the Tories might turn. I believe Labour is finished. My mum, who's a staunch Labour voter, has been all her life, and I told her we were coming to meet you, Zach. She goes, oh, thank God there's someone with their head screwed on. Because she's just, she's given up on Labour and she's been Labour through and through. She's just completely, they're hopeless. They're seen as hopeless and they are seen as Tory light. And then I think the opposite side of that argument is, I think we're doing this, but we need to do it more, is to offer a real alternative.

50:14So to not rely on the collapse of Exactly. But to go actually this is something that people can get excited about, can feel like they belong, that they're a protagonist in if we come back to storytelling. You'll notice a couple of times in this conversation I've gone, it's we, it's us. And that's because what we see on the right with Faraj is it's him. And actually when he goes, there's no real structure there other than the global network. Yes. Another thing in terms of reform itself, it's a one man band and I'm absolutely determined. I already know the Green Party aren't that. But I think the media are now in another phase where they're like, oh, that's something we can do.

50:46We can make the Green Party zak. And I think it's something I and the party are really keen to resist. And brilliant people like my deputy leaders, Rachel Millward and Motten Ali. I'm sure you've seen Motten do some brilliant work too. He famously, when he won as a councillor in Gipton and Hare Hills, he shouted Alou Akbar because he was celebrating. And Tommy Robinson and the Daily Mail launched on him the next day for shouting God is great. but what I think the media don't know how to deal with is when you interview him he's someone who's a gardener, he really cares about agriculture he's a very softly spoken gentle soul he's feisty and fierce in his political values but actually a very gentle, warm, compassionate being and they just don't know how to deal with it and then with Rachel there, this is a woman who's really stood up for refugees and they said in her local area she doesn't think army barracks is an appropriate place to store refugees and the media immediately go, well, this is nimbyism.

51:40Well, no, she's saying, let's welcome refugees, but let's make sure that we build appropriate housing, both for British people and for communities who badly need this housing. We're back to the affordable homes and to people who, if we let them work, could be contributing into our tax system. It all just adds up for the media to determine to try and divide us amongst each other and point fingers. Because it's really easy, red meat. It's really lazy. Do you have a strategy when it comes to the sort of legacy media, the mainstream media? I mean, it's pretty predictable the way in which they go about giving you a certain amount of time, tying you to one topic, pre-writing what they want to hear from you.

52:18And then you've got the independent media outlets, which, you know, you've got like this. You've got more space to kind of talk and explore ideas. Do you, is there a strategy there? Where are you thinking, well, actually, even if we're given no time on this show with LBC, with this, that and the other, it always works in our favor, even when we're kind of tightened down into a two minute soundbite. Is that a strategy that you're sort of - Yeah. And that's exactly the strategy. I think it's both. It's creating spaces like this where when I first set up the podcast, I remember I went on another podcast that's a more establishment podcast and they said to me, are you avoiding scrutiny by setting up your own media channels?

52:52and I said anytime you want to ask me a question about literally anything invite me and I will come as soon as possible to speak in your microphone and answer your questions but also at the same time I don't want to be in a car it's probably a bad analogy but in a car where I'm being driven all over the road on your agenda and actually I want spaces where I can platform other people and so far it's been a lot of people and learn I suppose because you're interested in human beings like we are it's a great thing isn't it to be able to really talk to people I'm sure as a politician this is so valuable to gather data, if we just look at it.

53:25That's what I love about it. The data of how people are feeling. You can see that you're interested. It's not that dead, dead, padded and bare, crossed with child's play. Venezuela. Change, we must change. It's like a sinister horror film. And I think there's a new part to a strategy too, which is, it's amazing having you guys in and we've had experts in all sorts of fields. But I've invited recently by a paramedic who said, do you want to come on a 12-hour shift with us to see what we do? And I couldn't get back soon enough and go, yes, absolutely, I want to do that. But what I want to do is not only go on that but then invite the paramedic or whoever's working in the NHS to come on the show.

54:08So we're hearing from people without public profiles who are doing these jobs to talk about their own. Yeah, I think that's so great. I think that's a great idea. Such a good idea. It's like, you know, I've been a presenter for years and I always say to you, don't I, give me somebody non-famous because I did a lot of that kind of presenting with like normal human beings not famous people, not celebrity people so much more interesting and you haven't got like you haven't got a PR thing going on and I think of politicians that relatability that people are looking for that only comes by really talking to people not only when there's a camera on and not popping on a hard hat for two minutes for two minutes.

54:47To have somebody sit down and torture you for half and half, that's amazing. What's interesting though as well is we've tried to do this twice or three times. So there's a guy I met in Clacton on one of my first days of being elected, where he said he wasn't anti-migrants, but he didn't want more people coming over here because look at the state of my high street. And it was a discussion where I was like, this would be a really interesting discussion to have with you, do you want to come on a podcast? So we booked him and he had to cancel because he had to take another work shift, which is totally understandable.

55:14We booked him a second time, had to cancel because he had to had to take a work shift. So it's this inequality that we have in society anyway, makes it actually quite hard to platform people because of the privilege to being able to go, okay, I've got the time to come and do this. So I mean, one of the solutions we know is to pay people. So we're going to look at, but we also want to be careful about being seen to pay someone to come and tell me why I want to hear. Of course. You could always go to him and have lunch in the canteen. Which I think is probably the answer. I think that's a great way to do it.

55:39Which I think we're going to do. That was my favourite way of interviewing people, wasn't it? I think that was my real skill as a presenter. It was your passion. Because I just make friends straight away and then just get that real... You're not shy. Yeah. I don't like that, like, four-minute interview, five-minute interview. I would like... Well, I remember the first time I got really protective of you was we were doing the series we met on, which was a date, bizarrely. We both took this job at BBC Bristol. Perfect partner, it's called. Yeah, perfect partner. And the executive producer, we'd shoot these programmes dating, go into the edit, and you were always such a people person.

56:12The first time I knew I kind of really liked you, I got really protective of you because actually the exec came and said, she doesn't stop talking, does she? I said, yeah, but she's getting to the heart. To get them really comfortable. And you got a much better show with the contributor because they trusted you. And you trusted them and you were interested. And it was just like, but yeah. And it's not superficial. No. It's literally you've created a connection. And people are more comfortable in their own arena. Exactly. And that's the thing. Like, yeah, so, oh, well, I'll come with you one day.

56:39That would be a day. Do it. Do it. Let's do it. There's a show idea in that. There is. Absolutely. I mean maybe to places that voted Brexit or voted for reform to go chat to people yeah yeah yeah can I tell you something really hilarious yeah so I told you both it's my producer's wedding anniversary so he's gone off and said I'll let you finish the episode and I think I've got to the point where normally someone tells me when you're like 5.15 I don't know how long we've been talking for I was beginning to say I should shut up because I'm sure you need to get home I've got no idea haven't you got a watch no oh somebody buy this man a watch He's going to leave the country one day.

57:17He's having the time of his life. I really have no idea how long his podcast episode is. I can see it's dark outside. Before I close, so I'm not closing really rapidly, despite the fact it might be a 10-hour podcast. Is there anything you want to end on in terms of, I guess the question is to say what's giving you hope or what do you want to see from this year? I want to carry on with what we're doing, which is just opening conversations with people in the way that we have been, as we're discovering. We want that discovery with our followers and with everything. It's amazing. And I just want more people to believe that we can shift, that we are not left with no choices.

57:58That's my hope. I feel, it's really weird this week, I feel like something in the last 48 hours has shifted and that's partly to do, I know we're sort of in an evergreen scenario here, but in the last 48 hours things seem to have, as they always seem to have taken an even more sort of dramatic lurch towards the worst instincts of certain leaders and types of people. Feels like this could probably be evergreen anyway. But I don't know. I feel like I've got to a place now where for our listeners, our community, for the people that we're talking to, for ourselves and our family and our friends, I just want us to do this thing a little bit more of taking the radio, for want of a better analogy, and taking it apart and showing to more people how they're being manipulated, how they're being made to think, how the media is so, you know, trying to kind of manufacture consent, how the government and governments and leaders, established leaders, you know, conventional leaders of the mainstream parties have been manipulating us.

58:57I think otherwise I begin to worry that I don't believe the system will yield change enough. We just have to keep explaining and doing MRI scans over the fraud, the fakery, the manipulation, the control, the deceit. Because there's so much of it. And I think the thing that really upsets me is so many people, like if I go back to my nan, she was just so unaware of it. And yet in her there was the instinct to do something kind like she did for young people when she didn't vote for Brexit. it if she'd actually been shown the nuts and bolts of it all and how she's been manipulated she was smart enough to go oh that's outrageous and i want people to be more outraged and i want to do whatever i can and we can to help them do that and to believe in solidarity yeah absolutely on that note if anyone wants to or everyone wants to follow you guys in your podcast what's it called and how do people find it well you come to the sawala radlees which is our youtube channel coffee moaning is the is the podcast but you can you can get that on apple podcast spotify But join us on YouTube because we talk a lot to you when you're listening to us.

59:58Yes, I love that. I suppose the final thing I want to say is you two have been very kind talking about my kind of authenticity and bravery and hope. But actually, I think it's just a mirror to what you guys are doing. So thank you for everything you're doing. Loved for you and never ending chat.

1:00:17Zach, final words for me. if you're paying a phone bill anyway like nearly all of us are of course why not pay a phone bill that funds rewilding reintroducing and replanting the three r's you can even watch it happening on your phone that's bloom scrolling not doom scrolling to find out more and to join the thousands of people helping british wildlife go to ecotalk.co.uk slash bold politics join the Bloom Scholars and the Blooming Nature Revolution.