Why We Deserve Better Than Reeves And Starmer | Marina Purkiss | Jemma Forte

0:28When are you going to argue with people, Zach? mean I won't have people on I disagree with and in fact that happens quite a lot but I'm not intending to have people on where we just have an argument. You can see me on so many other podcasts doing just that but actually there's one podcast that I went on and actually I just had a really great time so I thought I'd return the favour. Today with the two women who present the brilliant podcast for Troll this is my conversation with Marina and Gemma.

0:57Hello Zach, Chris Packham here. I hear you've signed up to EcoTalk. That's very bold of you. Brilliant. And if you don't mind me saying, very bright of you too. If your audience is half as smart as you, then they'll sign up too at ecotalk.co.uk.

1:21so i was with a friend yesterday he also works for a green party and i said that i was uh podcasting with you both today and she was like the troll your podcast is a bit like if your mum and her friends had come around with a glass of wine and they're having a great time and she went oh don't worry my mum's only 40 as i told that story and i thought actually that really rings true that you two like clearly have this amazing friendship that also rotates around the politics that you talk about but I think you give a really clear demonstration of the things can be really serious and really worrying in the world but actually you can have a laugh about them too.

1:55Well thank you and I think yeah that's probably quite accurate it's a very unusual podcast and probably relationship because I think you're right at the heart of it it's two women who care deeply are very engaged are quite boring really aren't we we find it oh it's budget day oh this is very very exciting whereas I think there's lots of people who perhaps they think that politics isn't for them and so we try to break things down don't we and we also howl with laughter at some stuff but we've both probably cried at points as well and that's never planned but perhaps when you've you know seen umpteen clips the night before of things that are happening in Palestine it's also totally normal and so that probably reflects how other people yeah and it's a coping i think it's a coping mechanism as well right so it's like where do you put this you're i think for both of us we got dragged i say into politics because of brexit and we started to go what the fuck is going on who are the people sort of pioneering all of this who are the people spouting all this shit why are they allowed to spout all this shit and then slowly you sort of you dip your toe in and you're fully immersed and it's hard to sort of you know be people that just feel the way you do that are going what is going on is really lovely and the community we've built that listens to the podcast are exactly that it's like collective therapy yeah yeah marina's just my spirit animal in many many ways in terms of work ethic we're both bananas like we're like so you're going on holiday yeah 100 or you must have a break i'm gonna take my microphone okay great this is very relatable um how did you both meet uh okay So I started following Marina when it was Twitter, when Twitter was excellent pre-Musk.

3:40So some years ago now and just thought everything this woman is saying. Oh, God, I love it. I love it. Plus, at that point, she was sort of like being quite salty with quite a few Tory MPs who, you know, and you noticed her. Then I remember looking at her picture and going, she's really hot as well. So I was like fangirling slightly. And then I've been going on the Jeremy Vine show for years. I was definitely out the political closet but I was sort of trying to be maybe not too controversial because I was worried about getting sacked from my other job Marina was doing it all for me I couldn't worry so then anyway we got in touch and then at a certain point I just said I've just got this instinct would you like to do something together just you know let's do a podcast and we had no idea what we were doing we did it just ourselves with help from somebody for a while you know we didn't even have any ads on it for about six months built it up to a nice level and then um yeah i'm so grateful i'm so grateful that i met her we have had an incredible journey together but if it had not been because i was on maternity leave with my second kid and so i was like oh i've got a bit of time here i can actually do a bit of a new it's not our most women thing a bit of a new project and um and it just yeah i'm so glad we've done it but since we met we've been to glastonbury together and done the trawl we've been for dinner at gary Lineker's house we're sitting here with you someone we seriously admire we've met Carol Vorderman we are two women having the time of our lives but then my daughter she's like oh god you've got to do this good and I'm like yeah we've also co-written and produced and hosted 300 episodes there's some work behind it to do all of these incredible things.

5:18That's a real troll. Sometimes the troll is quite depressing right we try to find the moments of levity but sometimes especially when we don't shy away from the hard discussions. We don't shy away from talking about the Middle East. And, you know, it's hard, but you never know what you're going to get with it. There is potential Russian influence in our democratic system. I mean, you can't say anything for sure, can you? But then we have so much fun, for example, when Zoran Mamdani goes into the Oval Office and everyone's expecting this showdown with socialism. And then he makes Trump fall in love with him.

5:53What do you think went on there? I still can't. We kind of basically think that what does Trump care about? Nothing except his own ego. And that day the photographers were there and suddenly there's this guy. And it's like he doesn't care actually fundamentally that this man has called him a fascist. Because to him that's okay. You call me wherever you want. I have no moral core. So actually he's just a bit like you're quite dreamy. I think he has to do a bit as well. There's also the fact that Trump is drawn to charisma. He's drawn to people who are popular. And don't forget, Trump was a Democrat once upon a time.

6:33He only bent to that way because he couldn't win the support of Democrats. And I think he publicly said that he could win over Republicans because they're not as intelligent, essentially. So he probably does share some ideology with him. He actually said that. And also, I just think he thought, you are rocking a nice burgundy polonaire. This is very autumn 2025. Maybe that would suit me. And I don't think it's that kind of stuff going on in his strange mind. There's so much joy I want to explore with you both. I want to go to a more grim place, first of all, though, because I'm listening to you both laugh.

7:08And I've seen some of the comments on some of your episodes that you put out and some of your social media output. But as two outspoken women in politics, how do you deal with the kind of the just wave of abuse? I feel bad now because you're both laughing. No, you just dragged the energy down there. I have said this to Gemma as well because we have it. We have moments where it can be quite hard and like we might have got something a little bit wrong. You know, we aren't journalists. We aren't reporters. We are two people just like everyone else observing what's going on and putting our take on things.

7:45And sometimes the backlash is awful. And there's a lot of misogyny and there's a lot of sexism. There's a lot of I get called a basically told I'm thick. I'm just a wag or whatever. All these comments. So I've got to a place now where I tend to sort of like grenade and go. Like I certainly on X. X is just a cesspit now. So I would just like pop something in there and then I will go Instagram is a much friendlier place So I engage a bit more and but also just remind myself that these people Fucking losers like they what they wouldn't they wouldn't come up to me in real life They just wouldn't all the people I've met who recognize me in public.

8:23They're lovely. They're warm. They're kind are appreciative No one in fact just one there was one time at at a Labour conference two years ago where someone said something like, there's that lefty lunatic or something like that. I can't remember. At Labour, at the Labour conference, yeah. A starmer. I know, apart from that, I've had nothing. I just, I'm most of the time okay. I tend to, I'm so half glass full and sometimes to my detriment because I think sometimes also I can even look at things that are happening in the political landscape and have one view and then perhaps, like you say three days later think hmm and you can't really go back and change what you said so yeah but I think that on the whole we get so much love as well that I tend to notice that more unless and Marina knows this I'm just having one of those days and if I'm having one of those days you know what it's like either you've just not slept much or you've I don't know hormones something and it will be one comment and it's usually something about my appearance and it will hurt it will hurt my feelings and i'm like and i feel vulnerable and i feel a bit exposed for a few hours but then i've also got a terrible memory so then i forget about it and that's it yeah and presumably a lot of these people aren't even people they're just bots as well we were talking about russia before but we know that a lot of these things are just just automated i guess that's a question partly because I meet women all the time who this is a question they often ask me they go when they get more involved in politics but how do you deal with the abuse and I often talk about it but I go I think there is a different layer of it when you add misogyny and sexism to the abuse that anyone who's progressive or on the left gets anyway maybe a bit yeah but I'd go back to honestly if there are women out there who are thinking they'd like to get more involved as long as you go through your life trying to be a decent person and you also I think we're quite good at going yeah I probably did get that wrong that so disarms people so if perhaps they're going well I think I'll go yeah maybe maybe you've got a point I mean for me I'm quite nuanced about things anyway and then they'll go oh okay well thanks so much for messaging back and they're so astounded that you've engaged so I think you know I'd also be honest about I've been on LBC before during cross-question and you know I was with these sort of fairly weighty people what What do I mean?

10:45I mean, people that have maybe worked in the military and then they're asking me about Ukraine. And I'm just a bit like, well, I can I can say what I think, but you're probably better going and asking that person. Right. There are areas of geopolitics that I don't know everything about. And I think that that's so refreshing when people hear you say that. Whereas on other things, I'm like, no, I really know what I think on this. How do you cope with it? Because I'm guessing you get some awful stuff. Yeah, I tend to. You re-share it all. Exactly. I tend to go, what is the kind of thing that someone sees as a flaw or a weakness and how do you turn it to a strength?

11:17So it's interesting what you just said, because I sometimes think people who say they're experts, and we do need experts on things, so I'm not doing experts and kind of the population's had enough of experts, Michael Gove 2016 kind of way. But I think there is something to be said that some of these experts have absolutely trashed the country, destroyed the country. Particularly think about economic experts. We had the former Bank of England the other day who said that my economics was la-la land. and I just thought well actually La La Land seems to be the economic system right now where poor people are getting poorer rich people are getting richer people are really suffering and you're kind of saying oh well we'll just keep it how it is we'll just do a few tweaks and I'm like yeah you don't have to be an economist to look at things and go actually we need a different kind of economy can I ask a question on that though because obviously Geron I think you're wonderful and the I think more and more of my social circle are starting to go Zach this Zach is quite interesting and I've got one of my mums in the NCT group who is going, I really like him, but I am worried about, say he comes into power and he goes and does this big old spending spree, which is great.

12:18We know long-term investment into infrastructure is wonderful, but short-term, our debt, if it gets bigger, we aren't like a Japan, right? Most of our debt is internationally held, whereas Japan, for example, is incited from spikes in gilt mark yields. because theirs is domestically held. So what's to stop? You go on a massive spending spree, not for tax cuts for the rich, like trusted, but for good stuff, but then just scaring the shitheads of the markets and there being a mortgage interest rate hike like we had last time. I think there's a few things. I think the first thing that often gets missed is you need to tell a story.

12:54So if you're in power, you need to talk to the people primarily, but also you need to talk to the markets. And I think one of the big problems is we hear these fiscal rules all the time, but since 2010, We've had, I think, seven or nine different fiscal rules in the last 15 years. So we kind of pretend or they pretend that these fiscal rules are the hard lines that absolutely can't be broken. And then a few months later or a few years later, they go, oh, no, we're doing different fiscal rules now. And I think that's partly what the markets don't like is the instability of lack of coherent narrative.

13:20So I think that's the first thing is to be really clear about what your economic agenda is. I think the second thing is to separate debt and spending. So if I start on spending, you've made the argument partly, which is if you spend a pound, say, on tackling the climate crisis, you get£1.88 back. Same with health. People often go, I don't understand how health spending makes money. But it's about the cost of inaction. So if you don't spend money on the health service, you get what we get now, which is people with long term health conditions, people missing jobs, people missing work. Really bad for productivity, really bad for the economy.

13:51You get£4 back per pound in health spending. Oh, I didn't know that was a figure. There we go. That's an example of where I didn't know something. If you tune into the troll, you'll get more nuggets like that on the troll podcast. No, plug, plug, plug. So I think that's the important thing. And that's, of course, both in terms of long term, in terms of capital investment, but to your question about the short term. I think as long as you're clear, that's where we're going. And Rachel Reeves is doing this to a way, but doing it in a much more absurd way, which is she is saying that they now have more fiscal headroom because the economy is going to grow.

14:19Now, the problem is you don't know if the economy is going to grow. So to pretend that you're based in reality and to pretend that these figures are really tangible because you are saying we are going to grow so I have more headroom because in a year or two these things are going to make is already economic nonsense. But second, to the wider point, the cost of inaction. So if we don't do these things right now, we won't have an economy because we're going to have wildfires and floods and this is costing an immense amount of money. And actually if we want to talk about the markets, these are the things that they really care about.

14:47And actually insurance companies more than anyone and you don't mess, like insurance companies don't mess around. They're worried about their money. And they're saying the climate crisis is a real, real credible threat. And actually, we need to be spending right now on climate adaptation, on infrastructure. You wouldn't spook the markets and our mortgages wouldn't spiral again. That's what you're saying. The mortgages will only spiral if you spook the markets by not being clear and coherent about what you're doing. But actually, I think if your pathway is really clear and you're going to back that up with public investment, then you can take the markets with you.

15:16and I suppose the one comparison I would give is not that I would compare my political programme entirely with Jeremy Corbyn and John Macdonald but we heard these stories at the same time I think it's in the public domain that they had a meeting with the Bank of England and with various kind of sectors and they said you know what this is going to be okay it's really really clear what you're doing I think the problem is when you do a Liz Truss and you just kind of pull in a China shop you're funding unfunded tax cuts it's interesting it's a more complex discussion But actually that all did stabilize as well.

15:47And the Bank of England a few days later went, OK, there's some shifts we can make here. And the Bank of England is a public body. So often it gets talked about, there's a whole conversation around the independence of Bank of England as if we have no control or influence over it as a public institution. And again, I think we've got to break down some of those economic myths. I think that what frustrates me is that when they talk about hardworking people and growth and all of this, and then you look at what we've just all been asked to do, right, which is to stick with this fiscal drag, right? So I do think that's very negative for most people, the idea that, oh, God, I'm working so flipping hard.

16:24This is across the spectrum from, you know, say earning quite a small amount right up to probably in the hundreds of thousands of pounds, that no matter how much progress I seem to be making or the pay rises that I'm getting, I don't feel any better off. So I'm not going to book a holiday. I'm not going to move house. I'm not going to take my kids to this because it's too expensive. I'm not going to buy concert tickets I didn't buy the other day because they were so expensive. And I do really well. I'm good, but I don't have any spare cash. And I feel like this budget, where's the reform on the whole of the idea with that threshold that hasn't moved for years and years and years and years?

17:00You know, surely that needs to change for anybody to be able to spend a bit of money. Well, it also feels like it was fundamentally dishonest by Rachel Reeves because actually I would have rather, she went for public and said actually uh we have public services they need funding yeah this is a kind of story we're going to tell now i disagree with some of that story and we'll get back to that in a second but actually what we did was this fiscal drag where people are dragged into thresholds you said you're not going to tax working people but actually clearly you are people are going to feel that pinch rather than multi-millionaires and billionaires i think a more direct answer i'm coming back to your question but through jemma's kind of frame there is this household budget and national economy metaphor which we know thatcher we've got maggie You have to blame for that.

17:38But it just runs throughout and throughout. And what I don't think I realised until the last month, because once I started talking about this on Koonsberg, people got in touch with me and said, did you know the BBC did a review just two years ago into economics and the way things are discussed? And actually, Laura Koonsberg, along with other commentators, were marked out as examples of where they got it wrong. And actually, this Dilnot report, which was the BBC report, said that this metaphor is or can be extremely misleading. Those are literally phrases that are used, extremely misleading. and then I saw this week a Labour MP putting out custard creams and biscuits and explaining the economy in exactly that way as a household metaphor and I go either you don't know that that's not how the economy works which is not great or you do know it but you're willing to keep flirting with this metaphor because it justifies austerity and that's definitely not great either and I think that metaphor is so deep-rooted in people because we've heard it over and over again and it feels quite intuitive this idea that like you've got money coming in money coming out and it's as simple as that and i think as uh politicians as commentators journalists anyone who's on the left or progressive and wants to see a shift in politics we've got to find a way to tell this economic story that can't allow the idea of the bond markets being spooked to stop any change i think it's also important to say that bond markets do matter the debt matters so it's not about like rejecting it entirely but to make it the principal thing that we always care about or is always centered as opposed to the climate crisis for nature crisis for mental health crisis inequality crisis it's so clear that compassion should be at the heart of it I want to get to a point where people who are on 40 grand a year 60 grand a year are phoning up programs to stick up for billionaires because it's so unfair they work really really hard I'm like oh my god the mansion tax we already had it with the mansion tax people with a flat calling up LBC yeah just to defend to sorry to attack the mansion tax I just think the mansion tax isn't going to achieve much 400 million and it's like and actually I mean I agree and you know fine but there will be the odd person as an old lady sat in a thing.

19:36Why aren't you going for people who've got billions? Absolutely. Millions! You know, someone who's sat in a house that's a huge fat house, fine, but they have got to scrape together like four and a half grand or whatever. The people out there, Richard, is it Bergen or Bergen? Bergen. Bergen, thank you. He did this brilliant thing on Instagram with some pasta. Yeah, it was great. Wasn't it great? And he's like, here, if you own 40 grand, that's your pasta. This is a billionaire. And he just put this table. It was like a table like this. and the packets of pasta went up to the ceiling. I think yours has been the strongest one yet.

20:07Well, thank you. The analogy with the... I was going to say. No, no, no, please, please say it. I don't want to butcher it, so you do it. Oh, that's okay. It actually happened in this room. So I turned to the producer and I said, how long was a million seconds ago and how long was a billion seconds ago? And we got some good examples. And then he said, what happens if you do it in minutes? And I was like, oh, I don't know, minutes might be quite confusing. So he went on his laptop and I was still writing kind of my budget scripts and he looks up and he went, so a million minutes ago was the beginning of 2024.

20:37A billion minutes ago, you're in the Roman Empire. Isn't that nuts? And I was like, that's it. That's the thing we need everyone to know. It felt like last week's budget was just another squandered opportunity to actually do something to address the inequality in the country. I reckon if you get to a billion, you get a rosette, right? Right, you go, well done, mate. There you go, you've done it. Lovely. You get a badge. You can have a little tiara. You won capitalism. You can have a little sash. Billionaire. Although a result comes with capital gains tax, so you have to give it back and all your money.

21:09That's it. No more billions. No more billions. No one, I mean, no one needs one, but if we let them even have one.

21:19Zach has signed up to EcoTalk. He's taken the great plunge. Why has he done that? Well, he's a man who sees sense. Firstly, brilliant network coverage. Secondly, fantastic customer service. And thirdly, of course, all of the profits are going to nature restoration. Yes, we're spending them on rewilding and you can go to our website to see what we're up to. You can also get some wildlife tips from yours truly. So come on, follow his lead and sign up to EcoTalk. All you've got to do is go to ecotalk.co.uk and it's simple, absolutely simple. And look at the benefits. Life is beautiful.

22:03What would you do if you were in power with the state of our press landscape? And how are you dealing with them now, actually? Yeah, so in the long term, so there's an amazing group called the Media Reform Coalition who have been bringing together, particularly people who have had like, they're not politicians, they're just people who are living their lives, whose lives have been destroyed by the media because they found a story, they've doorstepped them, and then they've done everything they can to destroy their lives. And it's just not acceptable. And I think it's been so normalized. Sometimes we're just like, oh, you know, that's how the sun behaves.

22:32And that's not OK. Like, we need to make sure we're reforming that. So Levinson 2, I think, is the first thing. We know we had part of that investigation, but it didn't go the full way. But also, I think we need loads more regulation in the way that the media works. Now, we've obviously got to be careful with it because, you know, if we had Farage as prime minister or any kind of reform government, I don't like the idea of any authoritarian government being able to tell the media what they can and can't say. So obviously that needs really tight regulation. So one thing the Media Reform Coalition are talking about is sortition.

23:00So this is just the idea, like a jury service, that you get lots of people from the public who go on the board, say, of the BBC for two years. and it's not their full-time job but they're there to scrutinize the rest of the work of the BBC to go actually as representatives of the people rather than power and rather than the government and wealth we're going to look at what you're doing we're going to ask questions and we have the power to veto so if you think that something's happening that you don't think should happen that group of people could go oh it could be this other way so I think there's something there around media regulation but it going to ordinary people quote-unquote where they're able to look after it in terms of how I deal with it now it's hard not to sound earnest about this so I'm just kind of caveat with that but um i've never taken money from private health care from oil and gas companies from arms trade companies so i really have nothing to hide my only two vested interests are to protect the people that i care about and to protect the planet and i think when you're coming from that place it just means you're able to speak and you know it has not escaped my notice how many journalists have said recently he just answers questions and then he stops or it feels like he's thinking out loud in real real time which can be really dangerous for a politician because you're not quite sure where your sentence is going to end.

24:07But I also know if I'm not hiding things, I know I'm not going to say something that's offensive to people. You kind of go, I can just speak. And then I might, I've definitely got myself in places where I've thought, oh, I'm in trouble now because what I've just said sounds a little bit more complex than the thing before. But then you just have the kind of confidence that you go, actually, people can deal with nuance. They can deal with complexity. I'm just going to look them in the eye and explain what the nuance is here and try and take people with me. Yeah, it's your authenticity that's cutting through.

24:34You know, my brother, who's early 30s, you are the first politician who has inspired him. He walked into a family Sunday lunch the other day and he went, I've just joined the Green Party. And I was just like, fantastic. And he was like, yeah, it's the first person who's speaking my language and who sounds positive. And it's giving me a little bit of hope. But it's really interesting because my sort of almost my problem is I feel that it doesn't matter where you're from, which party you're from. Like the Labour Party have done some things I feel are so abhorrent. And yet they're still human beings.

25:07So for me, it's like Rachel Reeves. Some of the criticism that she comes in for, I don't like it because I feel like some of the policy is terrible as well. Fine. That's different to the person. But that's why it pissed me off more when she stood up the other day and sort of dragged you about the hypnotherapy thing, which we've already, you know, it's just so nothing. During the budget speech. I was delighted by the way. Well that's good but I thought I don't get it as a woman who's gone through the media mud for what her husband's estate agent not signing a form which was basically that scandal which was a load of bollocks right.

25:42So I felt sorry for her for that equally then why are you then sort of lowering yourself to their level. I agree. A very senior journalist who I won't name because they said it to me off the record just said they were really confused by it too. Yeah. They said that at the moment I've got the highest net favourability rating of any party leader and Rachel Reeves' favourability rating is very low. So why would a very unpopular person attack a popular politician over something that just seems a little bit, it just felt like a desperate attack, especially during a budget speech. You're like, this is your biggest moment of the year to present your case to the public.

26:16what I would say more than anything and by the way sorry let me start with I agree entirely what you said I think the attacking of people is something that we should all call out especially when we don't agree with our political views um I'll come on to Zia Yusuf in a second because I'm aware it sounds like he loves you at the moment isn't he he's quite obsessed but also um also without attacking someone I think it's okay to criticize them and the fact that whoever wrote that joke it wasn't a particularly funny joke and she had to check her script halfway through telling the joke for the punchline i was like come on rachel not only are you now an awful chancellor like you shouldn't try comedy either and i think that's okay i'm not criticizing her as a person i'm criticizing her skill and it's the same as the you said because people would go oh you say you don't want to criticize people but you've called them a fascist and i was like well the first thing is i didn't actually call him a fascist he said to me next you'll call me a fascist and i was like well you absolutely are a fascist so he asked me a question and i answered the question but i also think if you can't name people what you believe that they are yeah then that's not criticism of a person that's criticism of their political belief actually as it happens i was on question time on that question time with him and a tory mp and it was the tory mp who was more difficult with me in the green room afterwards than zia was zia kind of took it on the chin as kind of reforming greens are fighting that's what we do we kind of just left each other alone but the the tory came over to me to say that it's absolutely outrageous that i just called someone a fascist on live tv don't be a fascist i pushed back and said this is the party who want to and i talked what they wanted to do to migrants, what Nigel Farage has said about voting blocs changing.

27:42And then he started to defend it. And then I said, you know what? You're in a party that's being led by Kenny Badenock. Like, I don't think we've got a meeting ground here in terms of what we think is acceptable or unacceptable politics. And I think it is kind of sad that, I mean, it's more than sad that the whole centre of politics has been dragged so far to the right that you now have Tory MPs in what could have been considered like a moderate right party under David Cameron, for instance. I still didn't agree with. We listened to a clip of John Major the other day talking about, he was giving a speech at the London School of Economics talking about the impact of Brexit, which why Labour just won't take their bull by the bloody horns there.

28:19You're talking about this gaping hole, you're talking about all this lost money. We've got John Major who was such a, that was a Conservative Party, right? That was not now where we've just got these far right. It was a brilliant speech. It is. Brilliant. And that showed you how far we've come in terms of that Overton window shifting. but also that was another thing it was like why is no one when we keep talking about this this this this gaping hole of in the treasury that we haven't got we're trying to pull little bits here there we're tinkering around the edges just deal with the problem where we're losing a hundred billion he said a hundred billion per year yeah and for me the next time i'm on anything and a brexiteer or somebody who's wholeheartedly supported brexit starts to moan about the economy I'm a bit like, shut up.

29:05You don't have a leg to stand on. Not very elegant, but just, you don't. And when I bring up Brexit, the B word, people just go, ugh, they roll their eyes. Like it's something I should have moved on from. And I'm like, but it is causing this sluggish economy. And it's one of the biggest problems that we face. Would you get us back in? Yeah, I absolutely would. And I've said that a few times on the record. I think where, I was going to say I differ, and I don't even know if it's, I differ, we're talking about a comms thing here. is I think people are so exhausted about hearing about Brexit. And I think sometimes when politicians bring up Brexit unless they've been asked about it, I imagine a lot of people switch off because they just go, we voted, it's been a mess, we know that, but just like, let's move on from that.

29:49Now, I don't agree with that sentiment at all. I think we do need to have a conversation about how disastrous leaving the European Union has been, both socially, culturally, but also economically, which is what you're bringing up. What I don't know and I don't have an answer for, and I'm always interested in thoughts, is like is now the time to start going actually let's have a conversation about what we've lost and what we need to bring in again and i think it probably is starting to be the time which is why i've started to talk about it more in the last couple of weeks i think so i mean i've got a 20 year old and a 19 year old and i worry a great deal about them and and yet they're very privileged they've got parents that love them you know that they're loved all of that stuff so i they should have a good start in life but you're coming into it they're going to be going to job markets i think there's 33 fewer jobs available for graduates last year that's partly because of ai like all those entry-level jobs have gone i don't even really know how to advise them on certain industries anymore because those industries don't seem to be happening you know they're not going to be able to afford rent a house i i love them fine but it's not just as good because they're going to be with with you paying for their bloody food um you know and and and it's and it's dire so i just feel like it is a bit of an emergency that budget it's all sluggish it's like oh it's exhausting we're all going to be feeling the pinch nothing's going to change you know you've got the climate crisis coming down the track so i think people need bold ideas and i think you're cutting through because you have a positivity about you you might not realize it but you do i was listening to ed Davey, who I really respect, and I think he's got some brilliant ideas.

31:24Although he had some beef about me yesterday on the TV as well. Oh, did he? I missed that. I'm like, come on, that's not necessary. Okay, but I feel like his comms, you know, we're in a very attention deficit society now, and he's all very like, and you know the thing is... And so you do need people who are good communicators, and what you're talking about is being real, being honest, being a little bit positive, and that's what we need to hear, I think. What did he say about you? So Sophie Ridge asked him what he thought about me. And I've been asked those questions about other people before.

31:55And I just always think the best answer you can give is something that's a bit diplomatic and then push yourself forward. But he said, I was a liberal Democrat that didn't get selected and then left the party. Oh, jabby, Ed! First of all, we're going back like over 10 years now. Second, that's not why I left the party. I left the party because I had an argument with Ed Davey about a military intervention in Syria where there wasn't going to be a vote and the Lib Dems were going to kind of back this intervention. Now, the intervention aside on it, it just seemed outrageous to me that you would have a party with Democratic in the title who would get involved with the war without going to the country's elected representatives to decide it.

32:35Anyway, I was really pleased because I retweeted it with the Mariah Carey meme of, I don't know her. Do you know what? I've just realised there's one thing you and Liz Truss have in common. Oh, God, here we go. You're both Lib Dems. Right. Oh, gosh. and it ends there but you know what we're joking I think this says something serious though I've just said that we shouldn't attack other people but I am going to have a little jab at the Lib Dems now I think it speaks to how broad their coalition is i.e. how much they don't stand for anything at this point if you can have a party that has a Tory Prime Minister in it the leader of the Green Party she was for five minutes because her parents were and she was influenced I mean she's obviously also she is just I mean that was a joke like it would be more of a natural home for someone like you to go from there to the Greens?

33:18They've got 72 MPs, but when I think about those different MPs, I can tell you what that collective project is about. And speaking to one of those Lib Dem MPs, who I won't name for obvious reasons, but they said to me lots of those MPs got elected by accident. They did so well in the general election under a first-pass-for-post system that people got elected who weren't necessarily target candidates. So they've got this whole broad spectrum of people, which is often what the Greens get criticised for or people try and criticise us to go, oh, they've got people in rural seats and they've got people in urban seats as MPs.

33:48And for me, that's not a divide because actually the running theme for the Green Party is environmental, social, racial and economic justice. And those exist whether you live in the countryside or whether you live in the city. Inequality matters. It runs throughout everything you do. If you're a farmer, you're being screwed over by the supermarkets. They weren't paying you properly. If you're a young renter, you might be getting screwed over by the landlord. But I'm not sure what the Lib Dems version of that is. Like, I just literally don't know what they stand for. Not that you're here to speak a lot.

34:15No, but where I'm coming from is it's, you know, the first time in my life where the next time we have the chance to vote, I just want to vote wholeheartedly for a party that I actually believe in. I don't want to be doing it tactically. I did vote tactically last time. I was desperate for the Tories to go. I think everybody was, you know, corrupt, awful, etc. So at that point, I was going to vote for any party, if I'm completely honest, that was going to beat them. So yes, I voted Lib Dem last time because it was them or the Tory. I'm not going to do that again, I've decided. And the Lib Dems, I think part of their problem is, I don't know, because they don't get much airtime.

34:57And if they do, maybe it's not particularly compelling and it's terrible. But we are in this attention deficit society. And Zach, you're plugging into that, like you are addressing that and you are everywhere. In fact, how are you everywhere? How are you doing it? How are you getting all those? Do you have an agent? How does it work that you get all of these amazing opportunities to speak to the masses? So this comes back to like, before I became leader, I heard Lewis Goodall of all people on the, I shouldn't name other people's podcasts. No, I will do. The news agents. We're socialists, we promote other people's podcasts.

35:29It's true, it's true. The troll podcast. Love it. He said that if a Green Party wanted to get attention, they should grab a leaf from a Davies book and start like bungee dumping and doing tricks and things like that and I remember watching him going doing it and thinking I just don't think that's true I think that's a way of getting attention but then once you've got the attention what do you do with it unless you have a political program that's exciting to people inspires people and makes people go you know what if a party was in power that's what I'd want them to be doing so from running my campaign as leader to being a leader I've just gone actually what is the program we want to do what does it look like when you say things even when they might be unpopular or inconvenient but actually you make sure you back it up research and science you say in an empathic way and you win people over to your side of the story because i think far too much of politics is like people are over there so i'm going to go to where people are and i'm going to try and drag them over here as opposed to what you know what i'm pretty much going to stay where i am i might meet you in the middle and put out a hand and say come over here come on come on and i think that's what's happening and i think the reason why i'm getting booked so much touch wood um is that journalists are going he'll come on he'll say what he thinks he won't kind of obstinate it he won't kind of bullshit me he'll just kind of say what he thinks and if I really don't like it as a journalist then that's a great clip because we can get into a proper kind of argument and he can hold himself and I think that's what's going through.

36:46From a media point of view you know we've been so frustrated by the domination of bloody Farage but there is a reason he's had so much media partly it's because he gets the clicks and and and in I mean this in a completely complimentary way suddenly you've got this person who's polar opposite but is also commanding attention and and is good you're good for them because people want to listen and people are sharing and so they're they're just fed by that basically um but also with the lib dems i'm going to be honest the reason they appealed to me for a while is because they were the strongest voice on rejoining europe right which is the thing brexit is the thing that got me into politics so i care deeply i can see the damage that is caused so i was like that was a very positive thing for me do you know what would be really good for the clicks, you and Farage fireside chat.

37:33Oh, I'm so ready for that, although I don't think it'd be quite a chat. I was meant to debate Richard Tice at Glastonbury, but then he pulled out because he said it wasn't a safe space.

37:46Dicky! We've both had fun with Dicky. I think I may have read, might need to be checked, but I don't think Dicky did too well back at school bless him but thankfully Dickie his dad did or did very well and he was able to inherit a great big business and I should also be clear that we're talking about the Lib Dems but I don't consider them the the enemy quote-unquote like it's I would take him a fight to reform is the thing here yeah I just find though that people often go oh I'll vote for the party who can most win in my seat and I just go but what is the long-term aim of that plan yeah if they don't really stand for anything and that might be me being unfair but I still you know I'm someone who pays a fair amount of attention to politics.

38:29And I couldn't tell you other than some key policies where the Lib Dems are going. The other thing that I reflect on, so just coming to you now, this is going to sound like a humble brag, but it was lovely. I was on the bus and this is happening to me every day. And a group of young people came over and went, oh, can we have a selfie? I said, yeah. And then an older person was like, oh, can I have a selfie? It was just very, very diverse. And then suddenly the whole bus is chatting to me. It's amazing. And it's so hopeful and exciting. I wonder if Farage has that. And that's something I just genuinely don't know.

38:54I think I'm pretty sure I have seen him walking through the streets, although it's always quite controlled environment, isn't it? Where you've got people that are very happy to see him because he is a celeb, especially if he shows up in Platinum. I'm pretty sure he's a celeb, but there will be lots of people, hence the milkshake situations, that don't like him. And if you were to walk down, say, for example, I don't know, your street in your town, Oxford Street, wherever. But is he on the bus? Is Farage on the bus? He's probably not with his Oyster card, is he? Dickie Tice is in Dubai, little dubs, he's in dubs with Izzy Oakeshott and Farage is doing God knows what.

39:29And that's the thing that pisses me off, this man of the people bullshit when you absolutely know he is not. He is so establishment. And I also think and I always worry about saying the right thing, but I think there is so much more to come to light. And I don't want to sound tinfoil hat at the moment, but the thing that depresses me, you look at this Venn diagram and a lot comes back to those Epstein emails. and you see people who are mentioned within them. And I don't know whether now I'm talking about patriarchy or billionaire wealth and influence, but there's so much wrong in this world. Russian influence.

40:03Yeah, and there seems to be so much connection. And I feel like we're on the brink of people needing the scales full from their eyes. And, you know, I don't know how we, just like three normal people, comparatively, can do anything about it. But when you've got powerful billionaires on the same side as Trump, not wanting those emails, those files to come out, we're in a terrible place. That the people who were running the world are just trying to protect themselves and their crappy reputations. So that's why it's so good that the only thing they can find on you is something silly that you did once.

40:42And that's it. Something that really strikes me, actually, is something the media use to attack me. But I imagine pretty much loads of us a lot is they kind of say, I'm the TikTok politician or it's just on social media. But actually, again, I just invite journalists to come out with me and go, actually, this is clearly happening in our streets, not just in London. I'm getting in the north of England too. And in Wales. And in the YouGov polls. Right. The YouGov polls, that's not social media, is it? I think the thing you're going to have to fight is you're going to have to fight certain people's preconceptions about the Green Party, about like, oh, they're a little bit sort of lefty mung bean.

41:12How are they going to like how because business is important to people. Right. If you look at middling, like huge swathes, millions and millions of people, they just want to know that their business is going to function, that the schools are going to be good and that kind of thing. But they will think, oh, far left. Like, will he? Yeah. Will he be able to be in the room with, yeah, serious economists? And will he be able to do geopolitics? Will he be able to? And of course, we know you can. We're convinced we're already there. but that's going to be your battle. Well, I mean that did come up with Trevor Phillips, didn't it?

41:45Yeah. So Trevor Phillips, and it went a bit viral, basically discussing how you would handle Putin and his disarmament. Basically you're saying you would ask him not to have nuclear weapons and I think few people took that as, you can't, you can't, he's not serious. It's interesting because the Daily Express said they changed the story to, I said I'd ask him nicely, which is not something I ever said. So the thing, what's interesting is often get the sensibles who say this is a ludicrous thing to say. And then I always want to turn it back round on them and go, so what's your proposition here?

42:16Are we going to invade Russia? Are we going to war with Russia? Like, if we're not willing to have negotiations with people, then we might as well all give up. And what strikes me is they sometimes criticize me for saying that I didn't want Donald Trump to have a state visit. I thought that was outrageous. And they go, you've got to talk to world presidents and world leaders. And I go, yeah, of course you do. That's my entire point. So I would talk to Donald Trump. I would negotiate with Donald Trump. I'd hate every single second of it. But in a democracy, that's what happens if someone's been democratically elected.

42:44You sit with them and you talk with them and you try and convince them to positions that you think are highly unlikely. But that's the starting position is you go, what would be the ideal in this scenario? Then let's talk. That's all I was saying with Putin is not going into the room and like wrestling with him or arm wrestling with him, but actually going, the first place I would like us to start is to go, what does the world look like without nuclear weapons? Okay, you don't agree. Okay, let's start to negotiate. but the idea that you would go in there with any other proposition than that is absolutely absurd.

43:10Well this is it, the fact that you were positioned as, you know, he's not serious, he's not made for this job when actually the leader of the free world is literally just going, I don't know what's going on behind closed doors must be just, he's completely compromised. He's passing off peace plans that are quite clearly authored in Russia. His trade envoy to Russia, Steve Witkoff, is on those leaked tapes advising Putin's men or whatever on how to best pitch the peace plan to Trump. And that's all totally fine. And you're just saying, I'd do a different approach, actually. I'd try and push back, and you're not the serious person.

43:43How many nuclear weapons does the world bloody need anyway? Jesus, how many times do I want to be able to blow each other up? I know, it's so stupid. Just once is enough. So to finish off, where do you think all of this is going? What happens next? We all need hope, right? and Zorin Mamdani achieving what he achieved in New York was wonderful to see. And I'm sorry, Zach, it's on you. It's on you. We always follow the states. We're a little bit behind, aren't we? And you are, I think you are our Mamdani. And Mamdani went from a year ago, he had 10 ,000 followers. A year later, he is the mayor-elect of New York and influencing how Donald Trump dresses and styles his hair.

44:25So I think your trajectory, if you were to forecast based on that trajectory then God knows what I said to my husband today it's weird, I'm going off today I'm going to do a podcast with potentially our future leader one day so there you go it's interesting that you've taken the question as that because that would have been a highly egoist question to be like, what happens next with me? but actually my kind of whole political agenda and I think you're both on board with this is this is about communities and grassroots and actually the people who are at the microphone and are actually there to inspire and empower other people.

44:59Completely. Do you think we can turn this around with community organising, with grassroots groups? I do, because I think if you look at history, everything is cyclical. It is a slightly scary dystopian world, to say the least, at the moment, but there's so much good out there, and people inherently are more good than people give them credit for. We shared a clip in the trawl. It was this guy who absolutely believed that all immigrants come over here on boats. They want something from us. they've got you know bad intentions and then he just spent some time with this syrian guy and by the end he's hugging him he's like i love you you're amazing he was like his whole mind was fried and and he was full of love again and so oh it makes me feel emotional thinking about it actually i do i'm very tired sorry if i cry but um i think yeah so of course there's hope and of course we all just keep going and our tiny little drops of things amount to a an ocean and we can do it look at look at the 1930s look at the evil that is always sadly prevalent in the world but then eventually you hit a wall and people realize that there is a better way so people will realize again and i think that young people are going to have to be really pragmatic and i think people of my age um are already talking about their old age for instance all my friends were talking about pooling about we're not going to be there's no going no social care we haven't got big enough pensions to be able to see us through with any quality of life so maybe we buy a shack somewhere and we pull i'd have to learn how to grow beans or something i'm hoping i can just be the entertainment and pull the drinks but so people will evolve and they'll find better ways and that's even that is about community and maybe i like a zhuzhi commune i don't want to live on a shit commune i want to live like it's got to be nice it's got to be a dance floor that's what i have like a nice bathtub stuff like that yeah yeah this is pretty good are you gonna compete obviously i'm gonna have a place i can negotiate with ben i don't know i honestly don't know i'm so i find this whole period so like choppy when we came into politics jem and i talking about it we were laughing about you know liz trust and her claire's accessories earrings and it was you know talking about boris johnson and the absolute state of events and in this small three-year window we've seen incredible decline right we've seen horrors um and then we i think we were sort of almost like saying to each other we do a lot of voices it's going to be a reform government we're going to have to deal with a reform government but yeah and it feels like it something has shifted now and and i think reform at time of record are on their lowest polling uh to date so i think it's 25 so you know possibly that means 75 of of brits have sussed them already and so i think actually that hope has been reinstated now so who knows and I'm just like please don't fuck up Zach and I love this country so much I've never ever ever ever wanted to leave it I like the telly I like the people I don't speak any other languages I love how the telly went out there first it's like Gogglebox is the best thing about being British I'm half Italian the Italian telly is shit and dancing ladies what are you talking about?

48:15like really bad Seriously, don't know how lucky you are. So, yeah, I've never wanted to leave. I think if Farage got in, I would want to leave. And then I couldn't because I now can't go to Europe because of him. So that's annoying. So he can't get in. I'm going to end on that note. Thank you very much. And do check out the troll.

48:37Hello, Zach. Now, listen, I've had a text. I know, improbable, but true from the beavers, the butterflies, the beetles and the badgers. All sending you big love for signing up. They're hoping that your listeners are going to do the same by visiting ecotalk.co.uk.