Andy Burnham tells BBC he'll stand up to President Trump

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0:30No bouncing between tabs. And best of all, no spreadsheets. Stop managing software and start managing your business with one unified system. Try for free today at odoo.com. That's O-D-O-O dot com. Decisions made in Washington can affect your portfolio every day. But what policy changes should investors be watching? Washington Wise is an original podcast from Charles Schwab that unpacks the stories making news in Washington right now. and how they may affect your finances and portfolio. Listen at schwab.com slash Washington Wise. That's schwab.com slash Washington Wise. Hello, it's Anita Arnand sitting in for Paddy O 'Connell on Broadcasting House this week.

1:18We're going to have the latest from Berlin after a vehicle was driven into a crowd of people celebrating Pride. We're also going to take a look at those wildfires around Europe. I mean, the pictures really do look like CGI, but they are real and we have some real numbers to put to the number of people who are forced to flee their homes. We're going to speak to a pilot who's been battling fire tornadoes. Laura Kunzberg joins us to talk about Andy Burnham's first week. And we'll be looking at Wham's 1985 trip to China and speaking to Pepsi, part of the band. All that coming up on Broadcasting House.

1:55Before we do anything else this morning, let's cross over to Berlin, where police say at least one person has been killed and 16 others injured, many of them seriously, after a van drove into a crowd at a pride parade in the city. A search is now underway for the driver, who police say is linked to Islamist circles. The BBC's Michael Steineger is at the scene of the attack. And just describe what you can see where you are, Michael. well I'm actually at the Brandenburg gate the scene is what you would expect it to be after a big street party the main stage in front of the gate is being taken down by workers the roads are being cleared of the debris of what should have been a great party but just across from here across the park the Tiergarten Park which is adjacent to the gate is where a man drove a van into a crowd killing one and injuring 16.

2:53So in spite of the picture that is fairly peaceful here, this is actually a city in shock, a city which is at the moment witnessing a massive manhunt for that suspect the police have identified. I mean, do we know many particulars about the attack itself, you know, how it happened, where did the driver drive into? I mean, can you tell us more about that? Yes. So obviously the Pride is an annual event. It is right in the centre of Berlin at the Brandenburg Gate, going all the way to the Victory Column through a park. It's called the Tiergarten, which is very big. It's bigger than Hyde Park. Most of the main roads for that event are obviously blocked off.

3:39There are bollets everywhere, but the park itself is not completely isolated. That's almost impossible to do. So the attack actually happened away from the parade itself at the outskirts of that park. People would have come through the park either to join the party or to leave it. And that's where Van drove off the road into the park and hit people. And we've been hearing this morning, Michael, that the suspect may be known to the police. Yes, police have said it is a 21-year-old called Abdul B who they know has links to Islamist circles. They still haven't apprehended him. They are looking for him.

4:22But it obviously raises questions. Should more have been done to prevent this event? Should people with these kind of connections being observed much more closely? And Chancellor Mertz has been speaking. What has he said? Well, he said it's an attack, a horrible attack on our open and freedom-loving society. And he has also stressed that those responsible would be brought to justice. Obviously, he is looking at an event which is not isolated. We have had attacks similar to this in the past. Only earlier this year there was one in Leipzig where two people died in a car going into a pedestrian zone.

5:08We had the Christmas market attack two years ago in Magdeburg, where six people died. And this city remembers 2016, 10 years back, when not far from here, across the park, a truck drove into a Christmas market, killing 16. Michael Steinecker, thank you very much indeed. You're listening to Broadcasting House, and it's been a really eventful week for Andy Burnham at number 10, or should that be number 10s? On Friday, he gathered his cabinet ministers, senior civil servants and regional mayors at Number 10 North, the extension of the prime minister's office in Manchester. And this came after days of trickling announcements of top government appointments and policy on household electricity bills, bus fares, tax breaks for pubs.

5:56So has this been a good week, a rebalancing of power or are we on more vibes than substance? Well, I'm joined by Laura Kunzberg, who got the scoop that everybody was scrabbling around for the first sit down interview with the new prime minister. It's going to go out on Monday night. So, I mean, ostensibly, were you his shadow for the full week? Well, we were with Andy Burnham at some key moments. So we weren't with him every minute of every single day. But we were backstage actually last Friday, just after when he became Labour leader. We then were inside Downing Street when he walked in, which was the first time.

6:34I've seen lots of prime ministers come and go from outside Downing Street, but we were able to be actually inside Downing Street when he walked in to see how he was welcomed by staff and to see how he kind of reacted to that moment as he then walked into the cabinet room to begin making his minister's appointments. They did then close the door and we weren't allowed to be in there. But then on Friday, we were in number 10 North, his new office in Manchester, which I can confirm. He is genuinely incredibly proud of. And it was there that we were able to sit down with him for just over half an hour.

7:05Because listeners this morning will know that Andy Burnham, you know, he's been everywhere in the last few weeks. We've seen him all over the place. Incredible images, lots and lots of social media. The odd, what we call a pool clip where he gives a brief word to one broadcaster on behalf of everybody. But he has been accused of running away from scrutiny. So it was really important that we had a chance this week to sit down and talk to him at great length, you know, to have a broadcast interview with a leader these days of half an hour or more. That doesn't happen very often. And of course, for me, the important thing really was to try and push him on the things that we don't know about.

7:40OK, well, I mean, we'll come to the particulars in a minute, but I mean, just a general impression, because you have sat down with, you know, other prime ministers. How accessible, how candid did you find the exchange? Because certainly the social media presence, you know, eating pork scratchings, one of the people, that kind of thing, is that he is open and open for business. How did you find him? I think Andy Burnham, look, he's a smart politician. He's very practiced in front of cameras. He's very easy in front of cameras. I think they are genuinely trying to do things differently. not just because it works if you start popping up on everyone's phones and you can create a sense of a bit of a sense of fun, create some interest in politics that it feels positive after a time when politics has felt very, very negative.

8:25So there's a very deliberate change of tone. I also think that Andy Burnham is someone who at this stage is more comfortable with sort of giving you a flavour of his thinking rather than sticking to prepared lines. Now, in time, that may become troublesome because he's more likely to sort of give a hint of something. So, well, we might look at that. And then in his new job, if he says, oh, we might look at that, the financial markets might react. Foreign leaders might suddenly react. However, his backers and supporters would say that's a real positive because he's able to come across as being more human and less scripted in an era where we know that people listening this morning, many members of the public, hate scripted politics.

9:09But it's a danger, right? There's a risk with that when the words coming out of your mouth are not just the words of the great mayor of Greater Manchester. They're the words of the leader of a G7 country. Well, I mean, look, normally the new guy has to tread really carefully when it comes to foreign relations. You've just hinted at that. but the Anglo-American relationship in particular. You asked him about this. Well, I've had one phone call and I always treat people as I find them. And it was a good exchange. It was, as I said before, it was a warm exchange. So I am that kind of politician. I always will see, judge people as I find them.

9:57I've lived my whole life by that. And I found him to be really warm on Monday. But obviously, you know, we will continue to build the relationship as we go forward. But as things stand, you're not sure. So you say you'll feel your way. You're not sure at this stage that you can place your trust in him as a fellow. It's a changing world, isn't it? And you just have to obviously call things as they develop. and I can't at any point say that I won't take a different opinion from him, that I will need to voice a different opinion that is right for Britain and I will do that. My strength always is in remaining close to people, close to the public.

10:43That will not change because I'm Prime Minister. You'd be willing to call Donald Trump out if you think that's the right thing? Of course. I mean, you've got to go into this. All leaders have to do that. You have to defend your own national interest before anything else. That's what you're required to do if you're to do this job properly. I will always put Britain's interests first. So interesting because he gave the sort of human response that, yeah, we had a warm call. I took him as I found him. He seemed, you know, we could have a good relationship. But when I asked him twice if he trusted Donald Trump, if he felt he could trust him, he just didn't answer.

11:23He said, it's a changing world. And just for reference, not that long ago, I asked Keir Starmer if he trusted Donald Trump. His answer pretty much straight away was yes. And I just wonder if Burnham's going to keep a bit more distance. But that also is not without risk. Yeah, I mean, because, you know, that will translate and be amplified across the pond. And, you know, President Trump can certainly fire from the hip. And Keir Starmer found that to his cost. He spent months investing hugely, sending sort of only warm vibes, and then it blew up in his face. So the calculations here for Andy Burnham and his team are very, very, very delicate indeed.

11:57But he may well be. And I was interested. He said, I've always been a politician who stays close to the public. I'm the people's person. Donald Trump is not, by and large, not popular in the UK. And I just wonder if on all sorts of different issues, actually, Andy Burnham might use that as a sort of armour. look, I'm close to the public, I'm your sort of vessel, if you like. Some people might like that, it might drive some people around the twist, we'll see. Well, not unrelated to that relationship with President Trump, you asked about defence budgets. When your Chancellor was Defence Secretary, he said very clearly in black and white that our country would not be safe unless the Prime Minister committed to spending 3 % of national income on defence by 2030.

12:41Will you make that promise to keep us safe here and now? Well, I appointed my new Chancellor very aware of what he had said about the critical importance of defence spending and the position that he had taken about that. The first challenge facing us both is to ensure that the defence investment plan is fully funded. And that's the thing that's right in front of us. And we need to work that through as we go towards the budget later this year. But he said there's a specific commitment that John Healy put in black and white, which was it has to be 3 % by 2030. Will you commit to that yet or not?

13:27I'm absolutely committed to what we've promised our NATO partners. And that is my commitment. Now, we've got to work out the way of doing that. But I do not want to see Britain regarded as somebody, a country that people can't trust anymore. So, no, he has not yet committed to what his chancellor resigned over. And that's going to be incredibly tricky, not just because of the politics, but also because they need to find a lot of money. And it's interesting, you hear just the tone in Andy Burnham's voice. I think that listeners will be able to detect when it's not his turf, you can just hear that in his tone.

14:11And at one point in our interview, he said, look, I'm four days in, implying I'm not going to have all the answers yet. But there's a difference. I think people will hear when they watch the interview or listen to the interview tomorrow in full, which I hope everybody does. when he's on his home subjects social care devolution things that he passionately has made arguments about for years and years there's a familiarity there's an ease the things that are newer big questions of economics world affairs not surprisingly he sounds a bit more halting people will judge it for themselves when they watch it but that was my impression in the room well I mean talking with people judging um you know yesterday I do any answers uh yesterday as recently as yesterday you know we had uh some people ringing and saying just give the man a chance and others say you know what is the legitimacy of this and I know that you did ask him about the issue of his mandate and asked him directly about an early general election.

15:02You say you come into power will be the biggest change this country's seen in four decades. Thing is 25 ,000 people voted for you in Makerfield. The 48 million people in the electorate in this country haven't had a chance to have a say on any of your plans. Do you rule out having a general election before 2029? There is no early general election and the thing I would say to you is 20 plus how many million people you just mentioned voted for a manifesto. We're in a parliamentary democracy so that is what people voted for and I will honour that manifesto and you know obviously I have faced the public in Maker Field at the time I stood forward in the by-election people say oh my goodness that constituency voted reform in May that's a risk I went and faced the public and I went out onto those doorsteps so you know I have done that I've got the support of colleagues in parliament and it's a parliamentary democracy that we're in.

16:07Rule it out? Well I'm going to rule it out yeah there's no early general election I don't think people want it you know we've well the opinion polls might say there's a there's some people do some people don't but The thing is, I just think what I most need to do is get Britain focused on getting the country back where it should be, getting it working. Politicians, of course, can change their mind. But whether or not we do have an election before 2029 will depend how it goes. Labour believe that they've had a good week. We don't know whether this is going to be a roaring success or a disaster or probably somewhere in between.

16:43but the best summation of it was from a minister who said to me, it gives us a second chance to make a first impression. Where can we see the full interview, Laura? So it'll be on iPlayer tomorrow from six in the morning. It'll be on BBC One, eight o 'clock, and the full interview will also be in BBC Sounds, if you're that way in kind. Laura Kinsbeck, thank you very much. Thank you. Now, time for a bit of slow radio, I think. Gerry Armitage and Sue Selby of Sale have written in. with this. It's the sound of our sailing boat happily sailing on the Menai Straits doing a heady 2.4 knots, they write.

17:37it is so very very relaxing actually i'm minded of the ship i feel like i need a shipping forecast chris aldridge you do a shipping forecast you have one in your back pocket actually if you're Thinking of going out on the Mani straight today, we're looking at showers and visibility, moderate or good, occasionally poor at first. So maybe leave it till lunchtime. What I love is that you just carry that information in your head, Chris. It's wonderful. Now, look, there is a particular thrill in going to a thrift store or charity shop, having a good old rummage about and finding treasure. And your chances will be very much enhanced if you happen to be heading to Hove right now.

18:11Raymond Briggs, the much-loved author and illustrator of The Snowman, Fungus the Bogeyman and When the Wind Blows, died in 2022. And he left his entire book collection to Oxfam. After three years of sorting and sifting, the volumes are finally on the shelves and online to buy. So, guess where I went? Excuse me. Can I ask you a question? Please do. You've got a very interesting display in your window and I'm after some Raymond Briggs booty. What have you got? You've come to the right place. We've got all the books behind the books. So we've got about 1 ,000 books originally, although they are flying off the shelves and we've already sold out online.

18:53But we've got a massive range of his personal collection, which probably the core is all different cartoonists and comic strip illustrators. OK, all right, I'm duly salivating. Can we have a look? Can you show me some things? Yes, sure. Let me tell you what I can see on the shelf, some Raymond Briggs collections. So you've got Steve Davidson, political comics, John Cleese. You've got Old Man Goya, Sign of the Times, which is some of the lovely Peter Brooks cartoons that people will be familiar with. The Illustrated London News. Now, that does not surprise me one little bit that he would have that.

19:29Exactly right. And that's what you can see again in the collection. You've got other people who've done, say, artwork during the war and photographs of the war. You can just see how his eye was drawn to these things, which then came into his work. Can we look at the back and see some of the hidden gems as well? As you sort of saw downstairs, you can sort of pick up almost anything and go, oh, wow. I see where this fits. Well, hang on a minute, it's all the Giles cartoons. Yeah, he loves Giles. Next to Rabelais, which is, you know, and Heath Robinson. This is fantastic. Clean and decent. We've got some really fun ones all about toilets.

20:05And he had this whole thing around Fungus the bogeyman and all of that. Wow. And one of the things apparently we're doing, I think, for the Christmas, he just had enough of crap and snot. You know, this is where he would have done some research. Oh, well, this is fabulous. This is absolutely fabulous. To think, Fungus has some actual, even medieval, this goes back to the medieval crabber. How wonderful. Yeah. And Dura. all the stuff that went into Fungus the Bogeyman. OK, what else? So then this is quite fun. So Richard Eyre, National Service book, it's got a quote in it of a book that Briggs sent to Richard Eyre telling him not to do, take the job.

20:41So this is from Raymond Briggs to Richard Eyre. Dear Richard, rumour has it that you are about to take over from someone called Peter Hill, sick, at the National Theatre, in capitals. Do not do it. You are a creative artiste with far too many sedillas and axes on it. and must not become a boring civil servant. It is death in capitals. Yours, very concerned, Tunbridge Wells. It's great, isn't it? How much of a difference does it make to a charity shop to receive a bequest like this? Well, I mean, you know, it's fabulous. It'll be worth, you know, several thousand pounds from what we're going to sell overall.

21:19Probably quite a few bit more than that, but definitely a few thousand pounds. Well, look, it's been so lovely, and especially lovely to come and have a rummage around in the bit that I've always wondered about, which is where all the treasure comes in. I mean, it's an amazing opportunity to get an insight into somebody's work. Okay, and just, I mean, in case someone's listening, is there a collection that you particularly have, you know, would just make you say, not that you're wishing them dead, they can be dead or alive, but is there anyone's collection that you think, oh, that'd be fun? Briggs has been just such a mixture, you know, he's got such a sense of wit and playful and very British to try to find another, I'm not sure I can give you off the top of my head somebody be better than that.

21:58It was a thoroughly rewarding day out. And after hearing me saying that I was visiting the shop on the Today programme yesterday, BH listener David Campbell got in touch. By complete coincidence, I actually wandered into the shop the previous morning and I ended up buying a book he donated from it called The Final Decade, Will We Survive the 1980s? by Christopher Lee, who, funnily enough, is one of the BBC's former defence correspondents. When I got home and opened it, I realised Raymond Briggs had signed and dated it. 20th of May, 1981. That really stopped me in my tracks because when The Wind Blows actually came out the following year, in 1982, it made me wonder whether this was one of the books he was reading while researching what became one of Britain's most powerful anti-nuclear stories.

22:41And finding a book from Raymond Briggs' own library that may have helped shape this work feels incredibly special and will definitely be one of the real treasures of my bookshelf. Ah, well, there we are. That's David Campbell. We still want to hear from you if you've found anything. You're listening to BH with me, Anita Arnon. And I'm sitting in for Paddy, who is on holiday. Self-directed investing, trading, full-service wealth management, automated investing, financial planning, thematic investing, retirement planning. Phew. And to think, that's just a small taste of what Schwab offers. Because Schwab knows that when it comes to your finances, choice matters.

23:19No matter your goals, investing style, life stage or experience, Schwab has everything you need, all in one place, so you can invest your way. Visit schwab.com to learn more.

23:43Now you have doubtless seen these images, which look more like CGI than real life. But now we've got some very real statistics. More than 300 ,000 people in France and Spain have fled wildfires caused by this summer's relentless heat. And winds and high temperatures have made the job of firefighters difficult to say the least.

24:08Spain has declared a state of emergency. France has mobilised its military to help firefighters clear brush and create fire breaks. Grant Thomas was holidaying in Le Canon in Cap Ferret in France with his wife and children. We were on one of the beaches on the Atlantic side and we noticed this huge plume of smoke in the distance. I woke up on Thursday morning and of course the plume of smoke had grown larger. It was starting to cover the sun and making the whole zone quite dark. At 3am I got an alert on my phone in French saying that we'd been requested to evacuate. So we got into the car, left around, I think, 3.45, and, you know, bumped into some other families also, you know, dragging their suitcases across the village to the bus where they were going to be picked up and taken to safety.

24:58And as we were exiting the sort of villages, it started to get busier and busier and busier towards the kind of the one road that leads out of the peninsula. As we turned the corner and headed towards Bordeaux, we then got visibility of the fire burning not too far away from us. I really feel for all the firemen, all the people in Bordeaux who we spoke to, a couple of locals, who were desperate because of the impact it has both on the economy, but also on the houses and the people living in the local area. Juan Navarro is in Cerebros to the west of Madrid. People are exhausted because they are receiving a lot of information.

25:34kind of, you must leave your village, you have to go to your village, you have to sleep here, you have to sleep there, and they are getting crazy because by the time they are not sleeping, they are going to their possessions, they are going to the ground with their animals, their farms, their houses. This is the very first time in Spain we have this situation. It's important for people to see that the government, the authorities are saying, this is very important, this is historic, this is very, very, very essential for our country, and we have to do our best for working it out. That was Juan Navarro.

26:08As most people flee the flames, there are, of course, some brave souls who head straight towards the fires. Aircraft from across Europe are joining the battle. Eda Navacerada is an aerial firefighting pilot who has flown through 25 fire seasons in Europe and South America. I spoke to him yesterday and I began by asking him what it felt like to fly over a fire which is out of control. You know, Anita, for us, we understand that people from the ground, they see the flames, the smoke, those homes that are going to burn, the obstacles. For us, what we try to see is procedures. We try to see the terrain, the wind, the margins that we have, the escape routes, all the mitigated risk.

26:54And we try to see that from that professional point of view, Because if we see what the people are seeing from the ground, then we get emotional. And that's a problem when it comes to decision making. I mean, that sense of focus is extraordinary and admirable. But, you know, you still have skin and you still feel heat. How low do you go and how hot does it get? It is. It gets hot. You get to feel it in the aircraft. Luckily, in this newer aircraft, we have air conditioning. But it gets hot. You can actually feel the difference. We're talking that the kind of flames that we see in these megafires, these fires could get up to 1000 degrees.