England through to the World Cup semi-final

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0:30business needs in one place, saving you time, headaches, and serious money. Stop paying for missing pieces. Go to odoo.com. That's O-D-O-O dot com to learn more. With the new Schwab Teen Investor Account, teens can gain hands-on investing experience and build positive money habits. It's an account co-owned by you and your teen, so you can monitor and engage with the account while your teen learns how to invest and manage money. Learn more at schwab.com. Hello, it's the podcast of BH from Sunday the 12th of July. You've done very well to find this through the complicated system. We spoke about England in the World Cup and we said goodbye to the programme's friend Peter Hennessy.

1:13England was lucky to beat Norway in the World Cup clash last night. So said its manager, Thomas Tuchel. Norway scored first, England equalised and the game went to extra time. Jude Bellingham scored his second goal minutes into that period Ezra now this is good pressure from England at the start of the first period of extra time Rodgers is going to have a shot Orneil's lost it It's in! Bellingham is there yet again for England Two goals in the Azteca Now two goals in Miami in the quarterfinal and England are in front for the first time in the match. And it's worth saying that in the history of football, this is only the fourth time England have reached this stage and that's why we're bringing it to the top of our programme.

2:06Our listener, Darren Thompson, was in the stadium supporting. Well, we're just celebrating a great 2-1 win for England. I don't know how they've done it, but they've done it. The opportunity is absolutely incredible. I can't believe it. I cannot believe it. We're in the semi-final. What's the last four with two wins away for a win in the World Cup? Go on, England! He's a BH listener. He can be excused for being emotional on a Sunday morning. With the late kick-off and extra time, the game didn't finish until around 12.45am. These children watched from a campsite in East Sussex. their parents are listeners, and not all stayed up till the end.

2:53It was a very exciting match. I'm very tired now. I had to come back to my tent early. And we think that England have scored because we heard a lot of people cheering. First half was really good. The second half was boring and exit time was good. What was the best thing about the game? Bellingham's goal. Which one? Can you say more than three words? Come on, England! Come on, England, it's coming out! Our listener, Rebecca Stokes, owns the Woodman pub in Waterlooville in Hampshire with her husband, Wayne. The atmosphere was absolutely phenomenal. Just hundreds of people all singing, shouting, the whole game, it was just absolutely amazing.

3:37Like being at the game, I can imagine. We had about, I'd say, 600, 700 people in the garden. It's doubled our Saturday night, this football. Well, the whole World Cup's been incredible, but every game gets better. Our listener is the sporting legend Gabby Logan, who hosts Match of the Day and will front the BBC's coverage of the World Cup final in a week's time. Gabby, welcome back to BH. It's been a long time. Good morning. Lovely to speak to you. How are you? Well, can I just say, hey, Jude? It's really lucky and fortunate, isn't it, that there's an iconic song with his name in the title that the fans get to sing because he is having some World Cup, Jude Bellingham.

4:18And actually, I think a lot of people saw that, you know, this was an opportunity for him to almost, I kind of reached the levels that we'd thought he could for England in a major tournament. So it's just beautiful to see. Let's start with him. A listener has written to us saying, I hope you do justice to Jude Bellingham. The press and everyone lured him now, But two years ago, he was public enemy number one for his attitude. He's 23. He speaks Spanish and German. He didn't go to the Premier League. He went to the biggest club, Real Madrid. What kind of trajectory has this young man had? So when he was at Birmingham City as a child, as an academy player, his talent was recognised.

5:04And I think it was felt that potentially he would then make his way through to some of the bigger Premier League clubs. But he chose to go to Borussia Dortmund in the Bundesliga in Germany. And his development there was excellent, but it was away from the gaze of the Premier League. And I think that was a really smart move for the people around him that looked after him. And actually wasn't against the trend. A lot more players were going to the top five leagues in Europe and not staying in the Premier League. And over the last kind of six, seven years or so, that's been something that has happened.

5:32But with him, you know, he could have been on a huge contract at Liverpool or Manchester City. But he went to Germany and then from there went to Real Madrid. And again, you know, didn't take the opportunity to go to a Premier League club, went to Real Madrid. I mean, why wouldn't you go to Real Madrid? One of the biggest clubs in the world. So at that point, I think, you know, the decision was commercial and it was also about his football and winning things. And he's still, as you said, 23 years old. So, you know, somebody who's won trophies in Spain and Germany and is looking to win a trophy with England on the major stage and still only 23 years old.

6:08But your listener is right. You know, a couple of years ago, he was, I wouldn't say vilified necessarily, but he was starting to attract negativity around him. And Thomas Tuchel himself had called him out for what he later apologised for using the word despicable behaviour. And he said it was something that his mother would find despicable. He was somebody who would remonstrate a lot on the pitch and look like he was getting angry with his colleagues and his teammates if things weren't going right. And he could look quite impatient if his teammate had put a pass in the wrong way, the wrong channel or something that hadn't gone right.

6:48And maybe a couple of camps that he didn't come to for England. actually wasn't a bad thing for him, you know, because I think that probably forced him to maybe think about things that he could improve on. And that relationship with Tuchel was very important as well because I think there's a lot more to it than just the public side that we see. It's fascinating for us all. England have gone behind twice in this World Cup and then won the game, which is different to the sort of despair that England fans have felt for about 9 ,000 years. England now face Argentina. That's Argentina. No history there then.

7:31And another of the world's best stars, Lionel Messi. So you're presenting the final next week. What do you make of this clash? We're presenting it really to our listeners as Jude Bellingham versus Lionel Messi. Yeah, well, in the same way that last night we thought it was potentially Harry Kane against Erling Haaland, didn't we? Because we're looking at the golden boot kind of list of players and the players who are in contention for that. But I think at this stage of the tournament, it goes beyond that. And you don't look at just individuals because as England showed last night, as they showed against Mexico, it has to be a team performance.

8:05And I think it will, you know, it will come down to moments. Is that moment going to fall to Harry Kane or Drew Bellingham? Or is it going to fall to Lionel Messi, who, you know, has been excellent in terms of goal scoring? But it's interesting at the age and stage he is in his career, Lionel Messi, his teammates have to do a lot of work, you know, to help have him in the team. But he's incredible. And so they know that they can win a World Cup with him. So they're prepared to do the running, you know, for him and create those chances. I think they are beatable. And obviously at the stage of a tournament, anybody is beatable.

8:37But I think the weight of the history of this fixture, there'll be a lot made of that over the next few days. But there was a lot made of going to the Azteca and playing Mexico at altitude. And that performance was seen as one that perhaps gave this team an elevated kind of position in the tournament, to go there and do that when so few teams have and are taken really seriously now as contenders. And you are, Gabby, the face of the final. You'll be presenting the final. Could England win it? Of course they can. Of course they can. You know, you're at the stage now that FIFA probably wanted, where you've got the top seeds all in this final for, you know, Spain and France, obviously, in one semifinal.

9:16England, Argentina in the other. The big global stars are left in the tournament. On the other side, obviously, you've got Mbappe and you've got Laminya Mal. And it is exactly what FIFA wanted, this competition to kind of come down to. And it will be about sticking to the game plan. It will be about the big moments, as I say. And it's about holding your nerve, isn't it? And England, I think eight years ago in Russia, when they got to this stage, were a great team that probably exceeded expectations. I think they're a very good team who can go on and go all the way. But, you know, anything can happen.

9:51I don't think it's going to be a hand of God moment for England. VAR will ensure that. But I think there will be a really spicy atmosphere between the two teams. Well, if it's what FIFA wanted, you're what we wanted. Thank you so much, Gavin. Thank you for leading our coverage. Maybe I'll be speaking to you in a couple of weeks' time, having brought it home, hopefully. I hope so. Thank you very much indeed. Take care. Bye-bye. Have a great day. She's gone now. It's 16 minutes past nine. Police say a 28-year-old man has been arrested in South Yorkshire on suspicion of the murder of Anne Whittacombe.

10:29The suspect, who is a white British national, is now in police custody. That's the statement from Devon and Cornwall Police. Anne Whittacombe was a Conservative minister turned Reform UK spokesperson. and was found dead with serious injuries at her home in Devon on Thursday morning. Police believe she was attacked almost 24 hours earlier, but listening to the radio, as you may have done like the rest of us, events seem to unfold in two halves. First, her death with no foul play, then a murder investigation. Let's just talk about that with Sue Sim, who's the former chief constable of Northumbria Police.

11:02Welcome to BH, Sue. Good morning, Paddy. Do you understand why listeners have felt this has unfolded in so many different ways? Firstly, I'd like to express my condolences to Anne Whittakam's family and friends for this terrible, terrible crime that's happened. In relation to your question, yes, I can understand how people can think what on earth is going on. First, we had the death declared by the BBC at 6.30 on Friday. And then later on that day, the police announced that they'd launched a murder investigation. And it is confusing to members of the public. But what I must point out as a former chief constable is that it is totally inappropriate for the police to announce to the media or anybody else other than the family the actual issues surrounding the death.

12:06So it could well be, and I'm not saying that it is, but it could well be that the police officers were having to try and fine Ms. Whittacombe's family to inform them of the circumstances of her death before they released it into the general population via the media. Yes, that's very important. So we feel because we're living in this second by second news cycle, we feel we were left out, but for good reason. Absolutely. You know, you have to, everybody's sympathies have to be with her family and friends. It would have been absolutely terrible had they found out the circumstances of her death from a media outlet.

12:56It would have been just dreadful. Well, I think it's so important to hear you, with several days' reflection, help us understand this, because it has been confusing to us. And I suppose if you can just help us with a murder inquiry, let's not talk about this awful case with Anne Whittacombe, but I suppose what happens with a murder inquiry is a timeline, a perimeter and a search for people. There are certain rules followed in every murder investigation. Yes, absolutely. And I want to make it very, very clear to your listeners that a murder investigation is a standardised procedure. So you will have the officers from Devon and Cornwall in this case, but from any other force in the country, if they have a murder, they all are investigated in exactly the same way, to the same very, very high standards.

13:51What happens is that you will have officers looking for every trace of evidence that they can find in relation to the crime. They will be looking for CCTV. They will be talking to friends, colleagues and family. They will be talking to neighbours, all with the attempt to try and find that piece of evidence that links the murderer to the scene. We think about her family and we think about people, her neighbours. I heard one of the neighbours on PM on Radio 4. And this violent act in a small community and indeed in any street shocks and horrifies people who live there. Absolutely. But that's why Devon and Cornwall have done exactly the right thing.

14:45They have placed uniform patrol officers in the community to reassure the people who live within that community that they are safe. My understanding is that they also stated that there is no need for members of the community to be worried about this crime. And an enhanced police response there is exactly what's needed. Sue Sim, thank you very much indeed for helping us unpack the horrifying events of the last few days. It's been very instructive. Thank you very much. Sue Sim is the former Chief Constable of Northumbria Police, helping us understand in a new way, perhaps, what's been going on. Good morning, says Kate in Strathpeffer.

15:36I thought listeners to BH might like to hear the bubbling of a Demijohn brewing elderflower fizz. Occasionally the dandelion wine chirps in too. Happy Sunday. Here is Slow Radio at 21 minutes past nine.

15:55the the the the

16:04the BELL RINGS

16:37It sounds as if it's just going round and round in a sort of doom loop. Well, have you not brewed yourself? Nope, never. I can't believe that. Lisa Costello, you look like an experienced woman in the alcohol world. It's a vicious rumour, Happy. It's a vicious rumour. Well, it's very, very lovely to hear it. I didn't hear the dandelion wine, but I can imagine it. More from Jim in a moment. Next, we've a love letter to a showbiz care home from Dame Helen Mirren. The mental picture of much-loved stars in their twilight years living in the same place conjures up a perfect play or film script. And as you'll hear, Dame Helen agrees.

17:16But Denville Hall was founded 100 years ago, not just for actors, but for make-up artists, directors, stagehands, technicians, writers, singers and more in the performing arts. Famous residents have included Marianne Faithfull, Richard Attenborough, Joan Plowright, Douglas Bing, Peter Hall, and all the many names we don't know who helped bring us comedy, tragedy, matinees and nights out. Dame Helen is raising awareness for Saturday's Theatre Gives Appeal and I asked her how long she'd been involved. Well, it hasn't been too long. It's since the initiative started that they're raising money for this extra building that they're doing at Denville Hall.

17:55I'd heard of Denville Hall, of course, because many of my friends and associates have spent time there. But I'd never actually visited until I got involved with Ian McKellen in sort of spearheading this new fundraising movement. Because of people's privacy, we don't talk about current names, but we can say Richard Attenborough was there, Stanley Baxter was there, Joan Plowright was there. What kind of life is it? Do you imagine people with snippy lines taking the mickey out of it? I'm sure there's an awful lot of gossip that takes place. And do you remember, oh, my God, he was a bastard, wasn't he?

18:35I'm sure a lot of that sort of discussion goes on. And actors and everyone related to the theatre and related to the performing arts are sort of travellers by nature. You know, their whole life has been making a home wherever they are, whether it's a hotel or an apartment that they're renting. You know, I started off in digs in old school theatre digs in Manchester. You know, I can imagine that they sort of, that they make a community wherever they are. Denville Hall, you could set a murder mystery there. I don't know why. It's the name. I think that Denval Hall is perfect for an Agatha Christie, isn't it?

19:15Or a Richard Osman story. And typically I've gone in with big names. And actually many of the people in your business don't have big names. They don't have big salaries. They don't have big nest eggs. Yes, people, you know, actors and directors and people working in the theatre, they are basically always looking at unemployment because a job only goes on for so long. So it's very, very difficult for people to build up a pension fund or a nest egg of some sort. And also artists in general, you know, these are profoundly dedicated people. They don't think of making money when they go into these kinds of jobs.

19:58They think of the artistic satisfaction, obviously. Sometimes they think of glory. But, you know, they don't think of money. and that's where sort of Denville Hall steps in to give people somewhere to fall into. And also I wonder how many of us when we're young think about growing old and we think about what we'll do when we're old. What's your attitude to ageing? Well I am old. I didn't say that. No you didn't, thank you, but I am. And you know this is what it is. It is what it is. I mean, it's an absolutely inevitable part of your life, if you're lucky, actually. If you're lucky, you get to be older.

20:45So, of course, you can't comprehend being older when you're young, and nor should you. It's not your job to think about being old. That's the job of the older people, to think about being old. When you're young, the world is yours, and you've got to take it with both hands and make it into what your generation are going to do for the planet. I wonder what role nostalgia plays in your life, because there's so many pictures of you when you were 20. Do you think nostalgia is corrosive? Are you a nostalgic person? It's lovely to remember moments of one's life, but I'm not particularly nostalgic, no.

21:23I think I look forward in general rather than looking back. I've always found those restaurants that you go into with all the photographs of the past actors, stars, I find them very depressing. I prefer to see photos of the stars to come rather than the stars gone. Look at all our clients who are dead. Yes, exactly. If there is a reason why you can look forward so often, it's because the roles are so contemporary. And for instance, in Mobland, which is, I meet you during one of the stages of this, filming of it, you play a gangster boss called Maeve. And I wonder if these roles have improved for women who are older in your industry.

22:04Oh, older and younger. Roles in general for women are so much better than they were like 20 or 30 years ago. So much better. So much more fun. So much more complicated. So much more deep. So much more varied. it's just talk and cheese. In the documentary, is it called Tea with the Dames? Joan Plowright, who was in Denville Hall, says that should be a lovely role as long as Judi Dench doesn't get a pause on it. Yes, true, yes. Well, that was, you know, that in a way was the problem, is that there were, and still is to a certain extent, you know, I mean, think of any Shakespeare play. Any Shakespeare play has 20 roles for men and maybe two roles for women.

22:46any TV series had 20 roles for men and maybe one or two women if you were lucky I used to sit with a piece of paper and every time I saw a woman I put a little mark on the paper on one side and every time I saw a man I put another mark and you know the paper would be completely full up on the male side and maybe there'd be three marks on the female side it's still somewhat like that but it is changing luckily and if we go back to where we started which is Denver Hall There'll be a big night in July, theatre gives, the big July the 18th event. And this is an annual event when theatre audiences are asked to give.

23:26Do you find that people remain generous despite the ticket prices? We always end up talking to actors about ticket prices, but do you think audiences are generous as they always were? I think people who go to the theatre are by nature generous. I think just the fact that they have the generosity to sit and watch people performing for them. There's a sort of generosity in that act of being an audience, I think. And I'm hoping that the understanding of what Denville Hall does for our profession, for our culture, because, you know, theatre is a very profound part of British culture. It's one of the things that defines what being British is, actually, I believe, along with rock and roll.

24:12But, you know, it's a very, very important part of our British world, our British history. And those people who have dedicated their lives to it, I think, you know, have earned the right, hopefully, to live their final years when they can no longer work in comfort and being looked after. and gossiping. It is a love letter, isn't it, to showbiz. Dame Helen Mirren. Theatre Gives is Saturday the 18th and audience will be asked to support Denville Hall's centenary appeal. Peter Hennessy bows out of public life today with a final programme on Radio 4 on decency in politics. The crossbench peer and constitutional historian has chronicled British public life for 50 years, writing and broadcasting on everything from the letters of last resort that Jim was just talking about, penned by Prime Minister in the event of nuclear strike, to the implementation of the Ministerial Code.

25:08But Peter has also been a BH regular, where he set up our election generals with Anthony Howard and then John Sargent. I asked him what on earth's going on with his decision to step back, but first if he knew what on earth's going on in politics. I wish I did. I think it's an example of political incontinence that's not to be desired, because the rest of the world looks on. and I suspect gains an impression that it accumulates, which we had with the French in the Fourth Republic, that they changed prime ministers, whatever it was, once every 18 months. And everybody was contemptuous of the Italians, who'd almost treated their premiership as a job creation scheme for the ambitious.

25:48But now we're going into that phase. But of course the big driving factors behind it all, as by and large in the past when we've had political volatility, is if an old party structure is struggling to survive, and a new one is struggling to be born. And it's not an era of natural overall majorities. All these things combine to produce a weather system, high in volatility and uncertainty. And we're living through one of those now. Will Andy Burnham last? Well, who knows? You see, my one political hero, as you know, Paddy, is Clem Attlee. And Labour put him in in 1935 as a holdover leader until the big figures could get back into the seats that they'd lost in the 31 national government landslide.

26:34But he was a temporary who stayed. He was Labour leader until 1955, Prime Minister for six years, and led what was arguably the most successful centre-left government we'll ever experience. So we'll have to see whether Andy Burnham is an athlete for our times. Now, that generation as well are part of your valedictory at the moment, both in the House of Lords and on Radio 4, in which you argue that the sense of shared experience they had allowed them to trade decently with each other and to explore decency politics. What did you mean by saying that they had instinct for decency politics? We had a bias, I think, and I don't think I'm over-romanticising it, a bias to be relatively civil to each other, even at the height of disagreements.