Royal Marine Commandos board an oil tanker in the English Channel

15:32Mark Steel:Yes, so we've come here because we were looking for your childhood home, which you lived in until you were 12, and now we see the thick of it, this massive by-election, pinned either side of your childhood home.

15:44Giles Brandreth:I'm so happy that Makerfield should be so important to so many people. We will get to this because it was a place of great heartbreak for you, but also a part of you was made in Makerfield. Undoubtedly. Undoubtedly. It's funny because these kids coming back from school from Cansfield High at the top of this cobbled street at the side of my house. That's exactly as it was when I was a kid. It's actually a beautiful place. We can hear the wind going through the trees right now from the flower park. What did you do here? I played football here through the summer nights until it got dark, so dark that you just couldn't see the ball.

16:24Giles Brandreth:Otherwise we would have played in the dark if we could see the ball. Were you any good? It was all right. I think I was expecting, you know, I was the only black kid. So I think I sort of, like, I wanted to be... I think, as per expectations, I was crap. You know what? Did you have many mates? Do you still friendly? Not who I'm still friendly with. Because that's just it when you're in care. You move and you don't go back. Because you don't have family to go back to. So you don't have that relativity. That's what it is, relativity. But I made it. I forced that. I forced myself to come back in different ways.

17:01Giles Brandreth:You know, and that meant a lot to me. And I fought for it as well. I fought to be known here in Ashton, even though I've left. Now, many people have been here campaigning.

17:14Mark Steel:Journalists from every broadcaster and every website and every paper have been here asking everyone who they're going to be voting for. And we're not going to be asking people how they are voting. We want to know what kind of people they are, what makes them tick, what are the local specialities. And as we were walking from one spot to another, a woman stopped Lem in the street.

17:41Lemn Sissay:Hello, nice to see you. Nice to see you. Yeah, I'm from the Ashton Grammar School, before it was Birchall.

17:46Mark Steel:Okay, how was the first year of Birchall High School?

17:48Lemn Sissay:Yeah, good to see you. Oh, lovely.

17:50Mark Steel:We're here because your maker feels in the middle of the news. Are you fed up with it?

17:53Lemn Sissay:I'm not fed up with it. I'm quite excited by the buzz.

17:56Mark Steel:What do you think about Makerfield being one of the most consequential elections since the war?

18:01Lemn Sissay:It's quite a burden privilege to be able to vote at this time.

18:07Giles Brandreth:That's a poetic word, Lem. That's your job. Oh, that's beautiful. Burden privilege. Thank you so much for giving us that.

18:14Lemn Sissay:I'll read about it in your next poem.

18:18Mark Steel:So where are we?

18:20Lemn Sissay:Green Natchez.

18:21Mark Steel:But it's not spelt like that, is it?

18:23Lemn Sissay:No, no. A lot of people get mystique, yeah.

18:26Giles Brandreth:It's G-R-E-E-N-H-A-L-G-H apostrophe S. OK, the way to remember it is Julie Hesmond-Dolch, the famous actor. This is Green Alches. Yeah, Green Alches, yeah. And what do you sell?

18:38Lemn Sissay:Pies, cakes, sandwiches, lovely potato meat pies. We do a good butter pie.

18:44Mark Steel:What's changed in Ashton High Street over the years?

18:47Giles Brandreth:How do you think it's changed, Lem? I've seen it change from, I don't know, the butcher, the baker, of the candlestick maker is how I remember Ashton when I lived here and now it's a lot more I don't know the shops seem like it seems like there's been a lot of change I think so Ashton wigging

19:05Lemn Sissay:everywhere it's all same into everything changes there was more village feel when you grew up here

19:12Giles Brandreth:there really was more village feel yeah and there's a couple of eight vape shops here and stuff Can I ask you a question? I'm busy.

19:21Mark Steel:Just asked, there was a customer who went by, said, can I ask you a question? He said, I'm busy. Do you think people are heartily fed up of talking about you-know-what?

19:28Giles Brandreth:There is a by-election fatigue, I think, that's setting in now. A woman said to me she couldn't go to buy a pasty without somebody asking her which way she was going to vote. Imagine somebody coming to your street. It's not someone, it's everyone, isn't it? Everyone's coming, is everyone exhausted by it?

19:43Lemn Sissay:Yeah, definitely, especially in this shop.

19:45Mark Steel:Well, let me not ask you any more about it, because it seems unfair in that case. I think I must buy something. But what?

19:52Lemn Sissay:Go for a butter pie or a potato meat pie.

19:55Mark Steel:Shall we get one of each? Let's do that. There's no butter pie? There's no butter pie.

20:00Lemn Sissay:She sold it.

20:02Mark Steel:You just sold it to the man who wouldn't speak to me. When he said he's busy, he's busy eating my butter pie. Right, we've come round the corner now onto Wigan Road, the road to Wigan Pier. I should be saying, I should be getting all Orwellian with you.

20:17Giles Brandreth:Because we are looking at a place that was inspiration for you.

20:21Mark Steel:It's a most unusual wedding cake of a building.

20:23Giles Brandreth:What is it? It's Ashton Library. It's where we would sit and, yeah, lose ourselves in books. Is the library still open? It's not open, actually. It's one of the big subjects of the town. The librarians are now working from a shed in a park across the road. But this, really, for a poet, I'm looking at part of your origin story. Oh, 100%, yeah. It's good to be here, Paddy. It's good to be here. Did Makerfield make you? 100%. My first 12 years were spent here.

20:55Mark Steel:It's a very traumatic story which you've made public. Your foster parents told you to leave age 12. You went into the care system.

21:02Giles Brandreth:Many people would feel traumatised by coming to such a place. Yeah, I'm not. The place didn't do anything wrong to me, you know. I loved Ashton in Makerfield. Wouldn't it be wonderful if we could all go back to the places where we were traumatised and feel at peace? And does it tell us anything about the spirit of people who are going to be voting here? They are, in my experience, intelligent Lancashire stock. They're working people, they're business people, they're churchgoers, they're politically engaged. They will vote with all of that intelligence, actually, in that very intimate moment where they're put a cross on a piece of paper.

21:38Giles Brandreth:It's very personal, isn't it? This is all very public, but actually the action of voting is deeply personal. So it's personal and it's public. It's a bit like our friend who said the burden privilege. Do you know what I was thinking? What's happening in Makerfield is somehow like Makerfield is in the south, and Makerfield is like part of Westminster. By accident of our system, Makerfield is sort of like a parliament. Right now it is, yeah, and that's rightly so. I think people are secretly very proud. Some are very weary. Oh, no, they're weary. You can be weary and proud.

22:15Mark Steel:Weary and proud. Burden privilege. It's the day of hyphenated words. It certainly is. Ah, well, thanks to Lem Sissi. I now know I've started an argument about when a hyphen is due, but please don't email on the subject of the hyphen. The inbox is only so big. Beautiful British locations from beaches and cliff tops to flower meadows and rivers are being ruined by crowds drawn by social media. So say critics of influencers who post photos which then attract their followers to do the same. So this morning we offer an alternative. We've asked a few well-known names for their favourite secret spot and we'll bleep out the actual location.

22:53Mark Steel:Just left, we'll be hearing what's great about their favourite place. Radio 4 favourite Giles Browndreth now reveals his favourite secret spot.

23:03Cathy Newman:Here I am on the beach on the south coast to get here. Well, I walked by one house where a British Prime Minister had been born. And I walked past another house which had a sign outside saying, Charles Dickens never stayed here. And I've just passed the corner of a street where, as a little boy, I once saw the man who created the character of Billy Bunter. He was called Frank Richards. Where am I?

23:39Mark Steel:It's my secret place, my best place. This hidden haven is from Radio 4's very own Dr. Sian Williams.

23:47Lemn Sissay:I am, by Aiken Howe, in the... And the reason I love coming here is, well, I'm actually away from home, but whenever I'm on a run, first thing in the morning, and the sun's only just got up, I try to find a body of water to run beside. And the glory of today is, it's a canal, it's flat, and there's no one else around except me and the birds.

24:16Mark Steel:Mark Steele's been just about everywhere for Mark Steele's in town. Mark, please reveal your favourite secret spot.

24:23Neil McIntosh:The places I've come to love most when I'm doing the in-town shows are the towns that don't sound as if they're going to be interested, like... But it's fascinating. There's the Scientology headquarters there and all sorts of religious cults and the Mormon headquarters there. So it's the only town where if you meet a Mormon, you think, oh, thank God for that, you're one of the sensible ones.

24:46Mark Steel:And the final word goes to Deborah Meaden. so one of my favorite places to go is cars can't get anywhere near so you park your car at the top

24:56Lemn Sissay:and then you take a lovely stroll down towards the cove and occasionally catching glimpses of gorgeous crystal turquoise waters then down past the little tea shop on your left hand side down some steps and onto the beach that's beautifully sheltered with the sound of waves lapping up onto the sands. Makes you feel a little bit famous vibe.

25:23Mark Steel:That's very evocative, with thanks to Deborah Meaden and others. And quite a lot of gases are coming in now, I now see, as well as other secret locations. So we may have to keep this going another week. The Ministry of Defence says the seized tanker Smirtos is part of Russia's shadow fleet of tankers with obscure ownership structures. According to the tracking website Marine Traffic, Smirtos sails under a Cameroon flag. The MOD says Russia relies on these types of evasion techniques for carrying 75 % of its sanctioned oil in 700 vessels or more. Royal Marines train for boarding a vessel at sea from helicopters.

26:01Mark Steel:And Mikey Kay is the military analyst on the BBC's security brief programme and former Royal Air Force assault helicopter pilot. Mikey, welcome. Hey Paddy, good morning. I heard Frank Gardner used the phrase fast roping. Can you tell us what fast roping is?

26:20Cathy Newman:Yeah, fast roping, we used to do that in Baghdad when we were doing similar sort of operations, but over land versus sea. Basically, you throw a couple of ropes out the side of the helicopter and the commandos, so 4-2 commandos, will basically rope down, fast rope down onto whatever platform they're going onto. And in this case, it was the shadow tanker. The helicopters usually come into a hover of around 20 to 30 feet. And the idea is that because you've got the rotor blades going around, it prevents the helicopter having to actually land on something. So there's less chance of having a tip strike on, you know, anything that might be present around the ship.

27:01Mark Steel:So the Prime Minister's paid tribute to the skills of the commandos involved here. What are the risks 20 feet up over a moving vessel with swirling Chinook helicopter blades?

27:15Cathy Newman:Yeah, I mean, just to sort of set the context of this, this operation was conducted by the Special Operations Maritime Task Group, and that's fronted by 4-2 Commando. Now, they've been in training, so it's not just the commandos and the commando helicopters, so the Merlin Mark IV. The Merlin Mark IV, tragically, is the one that crashed on Dartmoor a couple of weeks ago. But they fly with the Merlin Mark IVs, the RAF Shinnocks, which are the two-bladed, massively heavy-lift, massively capable helicopters. You've got Wildcats involved in that. And then you've also got a P-8 Poseidon maritime patrol aircraft, which is basically monitoring where the shadow tanker is going and, more importantly, looking to make sure there's no Russian naval assets surrounding it.

27:57Cathy Newman:So it's a huge package. And they've been training this because they're going to take over the Special Operations Maritime Task Group. We're going to take over the special operation component of NATO's Allied Reaction Force in July. So that's kind of like the context.

28:11Mark Steel:Can you answer what Frank raised, which is what will happen if Russia escorts these shadow tankers through the English Channel with Russian warboats?

28:23Cathy Newman:Well, the legal framework of this is what's called UNCLOS, which is the United Nations Convention of the Law of the Sea. And under UNCLOS, the UK can apprehend and board any vessel that it determines might be stateless.

28:41Mark Steel:In its territorial waters?

28:45Cathy Newman:Well, I mean, coming through the English Channel, I mean, territorial waters extend to 12 nautical miles off the coast. So going through the English Channel, you're either going to be in French territorial waters or you're going to be on an overlap or you're going to be in UK territorial waters. But there are laws which govern freedom of maritime routing, sea lines of communication, through things like the English Channel because of that proximity.

29:10Mark Steel:So, Mikey, just in a couple of sentences, can you tell us, have we entered a new chapter here? This is the first time the UK's done this, this operation. Do you think we're now entering a new chapter of a more muscular approach to Russian shadow fleet in the English Channel?

29:25Cathy Newman:Well, the legal framework's there. I think the big challenge for the UK is Russia's got 700 of these vessels. You've seen the amount of assets it takes to apprehend one. That shadow tanker will now go to what's called Anchorage. So I feel like, yes, they've got the ability to do it for one. I think the challenge is going to be the capacity and the output to do it for more.

29:47Mark Steel:Thank you very much indeed for your cockpit expertise and your briefing for us, Mikey K. a former Royal Air Force assault helicopter pilot. You can join him on the BBC's Security Brief program with Christian Fraser.

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30:37Mark Steel:A Methodist minister whose rehomed families firebombed out of their houses in Belfast has told us of the moment he confronted the gangs. Riots broke out after footage of a knife attack on Monday night, which left the victim with serious injuries and was shared widely on social media. A man has been charged with attempted murder. Homes of migrants were targeted and thousands joined an anti-racism rally on Saturday in support of now-terrified families. Reverend Brian Anderson is a Methodist minister attached to the East Belfast mission. A bus was set alight outside his church.

31:11Alexander Dragonetti:I met a number of immigrant families from a Romani background who live not far from our church and the fear was palpable for them. They were hiding within the house and were able to get them out and away to safety.

31:29Mark Steel:But on this phrase, get them out, there's another way to hear that, isn't there? Is it correct there was a list that said to people, if you don't get out, we'll burn your house?

31:38Alexander Dragonetti:Correct. There was about 100 houses identified by whoever, all immigrant families. so this particular family there was three groups in the family and two of the houses were on the list so when we saw that we got them out of the house and took them then to another house so for about two days there was about 23 people in a very small terrace house trying to survive

32:02Mark Steel:So you helped 23 people find new housing and at first that was one house?

32:07Alexander Dragonetti:Yes, yes, yes Paddy And what was the age groups? From a two week old baby to an 86 year old granny and all in between.

32:15Mark Steel:What kind of places are you finding now? Have people found a safer, bigger place three days on, four days on?

32:22Alexander Dragonetti:Yeah, we've been able through a network to get some of them into a student block accommodation for a few days. So the students have gone home, their exams are over, so that became available and we were able to house them there.

32:35Mark Steel:Now, one of the buses that was burnt out was outside your church. Now, I wonder, did you approach any of the people who are on the side of the rioters.

32:46Alexander Dragonetti:Yeah, I saw them barricading the road. So I went over, I saw an older man hooded, but I thought you look like you're older and maybe in control of this. My desire was for him to stop the barricade. He told me to clear off in no uncertain terms and then turned to the younger boys and said, barricade that. So as they were barricading it, I started to talk to some of the young lads, 16, 15, 16-year-olds. You know what? He put together a coherent argument. His argument was this, they're slitting our throats, referring back to the terrible attack the day before. So therefore, mister, the only way we can get people to listen is to do this, to create violence on the road.

33:28Mark Steel:Has this taken the lid off a pot, Reverend Brian, that is going to be hard to put back on?

33:34Alexander Dragonetti:So I grew up in East Belfast and I grew up at a time of the Troubles and Catholics living in our Protestant street were being burnt out. And I remember standing watching a particular lady called Annie leaving our road. Just wanted to live, just wanted to be. And here we are 50 years later in East Belfast with another group of people who just want to live, contribute to society and make a difference. And we're pushing them out. Has it lifted a lid? It is revealed to me that we still have within the Protestant communities an integration problem. We haven't solved the Catholic-Protestant integration.

34:09Alexander Dragonetti:And now we rightly and generously and want to have immigrant families and people from other cultures, other nations in our culture, but we're bringing them into a place where we haven't solved an integration.

34:22Mark Steel:And just talking about the island of Ireland, we don't know the full religious makeup, but we know there are Catholic areas of Ireland, the Republic, where there have also been anti-immigrant demonstrations.

34:34Alexander Dragonetti:Yes, that's right. In Northern Ireland, it does seem to be in the unionist communities across Ireland. It is an issue. And one of the major problems is we haven't enough houses for people in our country. There is a socioeconomic problem here. We haven't had investment into creating social housing for all of the community. And that's fundamentally what's below this, in my belief. So next steps, Brian, what do we predict for the coming weeks? Well, I am hopeful that the worst of this particular cycle is over, but it won't take much. It's a powder keg. It won't take much to spark it again. I don't want to predict it because I don't want to be a prophet of doom, but we have major work to do.

35:15Alexander Dragonetti:We've got to find a way of that 15-year-old be able to articulate his issues in a way that he feels as if he's heard. We've got to solve the problem. It will involve investment, it will involve government, it will involve a commitment to housing, to employment, to try and raise the profile and raise the economic expectations and anticipations for these communities of ours.

35:37Mark Steel:With thanks to the Reverend Brian Anderson for his account of the last few days. It's 9.40. We turn now to three of the best review guests anywhere on the airwaves. The Cathy Newman show on Sky airs nightly at 7pm. If only I knew the name of the host. She scooped with an interview with the Armed Forces Minister Al Karnes, warning that he might resign, which she then did. Cathy, welcome back. So the timeline is that he said he might go, and other people then said, did he go before, during or after? It's been quite astushi.

36:12Reverend Brian Anderson:Yeah, no, exactly. Oh, I like that word. It's a good Scottish word, isn't it? No, I mean, it was bizarre because at 20 to 7, I didn't know whether he was going to stay or go. I called him up and he was obviously in two minds and in two minds about doing an interview as well. But he came on, did the interview. My first question was, are you still a minister? And he said, yes, I am. And it was kind of very much for now. As the interview progressed, I felt that it was less and less certain that he would stay as a minister. By the end, he was like, well, if I don't get what I want out of Downing Street, I'm off.

36:45Reverend Brian Anderson:And then an hour later, he was.

36:47Mark Steel:Next to Cathy is Alexander Dragonetti, a former British diplomat and then star of the traitors, currently a regular contributor to the iPaper and a political commentator. Alexander, everyone has been linking the travails of politicians to the traitors. There was even that West Streeting moment of I'm a faithful, wasn't there?

37:04Deborah Meadon:There was, yes, yes, exactly, off the back of the traitors. Yeah, it feels very much like the round table at the moment, doesn't it? Everybody going for everybody who will survive.

37:14Mark Steel:Neil McIntosh is editor-in-chief Scotland for the media group Reach and editor of The Daily Record, previously editor of The Scotsman, and his newsletter is The Daily Line. Neil, do you feel in all your career as a journalist that this is one of the quickest, most polarised times?

37:29Cathy Newman:It's an extraordinary time. Good morning. It's a remarkable time in terms of the politics. We'll maybe talk a little bit later about things we're seeing in the streets. but also just the polarisation of what we're seeing across a variety of spectrums really.

37:43Mark Steel:Well welcome and you're speaking for several titles and you're the editor-in-chief so we're very glad to have you. Let's start with you Cathy. Where would you like to begin and why?

37:53Reverend Brian Anderson:Well I thought it was a very interesting column by Jeremy Hunt, the former Chancellor in the Sunday Times which has headlined Here's How I'd Have Found Defence Cash. He was of course appointed Chancellor after the Liz Truss mini budget catastrophe. So he does admit that he knows what it's like to live inside Downing Street, as he put it. It begins to feel less like a privilege and more like being trapped in a bunker. So his advice, really, to the Labour government, if they need it at this hour, which they probably do, given taxes and borrowing at record highs, he points out that debt interest, just interest alone, is getting on for double the defence budget.

38:28Reverend Brian Anderson:So his clear message is you've got to look at welfare, which obviously Keir Starmer tried and then was forced to back down by his backbenchers, looking like one of the biggest failures really of his premiership to try and do the right welfare reforms and then get them through. So he says on welfare, there's just some extraordinary stats in this column. Incapacity benefits, the DWP is signing off an additional 1 ,000 people every day as not having to look for work. And there's this incredible quote in this column saying, if you claim the three main benefits available to people out of work, you can get between 31 ,000 and 49 ,000 a year.

39:08So that is the incentive for people to go on benefits.

39:13Reverend Brian Anderson:Clearly, cutting that bill has to be a priority of whoever is in number 10 next.

39:19Mark Steel:That's the message of the column. There's another bit. Let me just complete the paragraph. So it says you get between 31 ,000 and 49 ,000 if you claim the three main benefits. Working full time on the national living wage gets you just 23 ,000 after tax. Neil, is this argument about defence being backed up with enough facts about where money can come from or not?

39:42Cathy Newman:It feels that there is a kind of third rail that many politicians do not wish to touch about where money might come from to pay for improved defence. there's quite clearly a debate taking place in columns you see in the magazines across the newspapers around welfare and what might have to happen there but very few politicians are willing to grapple with that for them it's short term pain for a longer term gain and our politics don't reward that kind of equation

40:11Mark Steel:So this is an argument sparked by Jeremy Hunt's column he's candid about how hard it is to be in power and then he's talking about some facts and figures and I've also heard it on the radio there's actually we voters, we kid ourselves. I'm not blaming our listeners, but do we want jam today and jam tomorrow and please can you tax Cathy, not me?

40:30Deborah Meadon:Yeah, I mean, I always used to work in foreign affairs, which is a bit less political, although obviously the Defence Review impinges on that. Yes, we do ask a lot from our politicians and I think there's a bit of a cycle here, isn't there? We ask a lot from our politicians, we ask them to promise a lot and then they're forced to promise a lot.

40:45Reverend Brian Anderson:Yeah, I mean, on this, there's this incredible story in The Observer Tom Baldwin is writing about Starmer stands accused of not trying his best. And he paints this picture of the prime minister hunched over the spreadsheets for the defence investment plan, going through it line by line over and over again. And the loneliness of the current occupant of Downing Street just comes across so clearly. And, you know, I did an interview a few weeks ago with David Baddiel, who said that he felt sorry for the prime minister. And it kind of went viral because I think a lot of people think this is an impossible job.

41:17Deborah Meadon:And I remember those final days. I was with David Davis as the chief of staff during Brexit and towards the end of Theresa May, a sort of lone figure walking around Downing Street and you could almost feel it. That end of days feeling has its own special quality. I can hear you imminent, Neil.

41:32Cathy Newman:I was thinking politics is about sales, isn't it? It's about persuasion. And what I don't hear at all is any kind of grand narrative coming from our political leadership about what the dangers we face and the sacrifices we might have to make. they're terrified to make it. It comes back to that old problem but it worries me to have a Prime Minister hunched over spreadsheets he should be out leading from the front and saying look this is the problem and this is the solution we have to come up with. I think he might find a public that's more sympathetic than he expects.

41:59Mark Steel:Okay, thank you very much it's a big discussion and it all began thanks to the Sunday Times' article from Jeremy Hunt. Alexander Dragonetti you're taking us back in time to a Guardian online piece. How do you give young carers a break? Now before you give us a story

42:14Deborah Meadon:you were a young carer yeah that's right my brother had learning disability global developmental delay and autism very sadly he died when he was 17 it's something I spoke about on the traitors there was an amazing response men cap who I'm now an ambassador for raised over 100 ,000 pounds in response I did a piece on carers for the one show the other day this is an incredibly important topic to highlight there are one million young carers in the UK that's two in every single class in our schools. And the average age of those young carers is 12. You know, there's a huge amount of work that's being done silently and privately.

42:50Deborah Meadon:And I really think it's important to recognise that. Wow. Does this article answer the question, how do you give young carers a break? Yeah, I mean, in part, there is some wonderful work being done in North London. I used to be a carer for a week respite as part of Mencap Holiday. My brother was there, but I looked after other children. This stuff matters enormously. It lets the kids be kids and play. It let my parents have a break because they were full-time carers for the year. But it's not a systematic solution. You know, we need something that's a bit more systematic that gives people the opportunity to be themselves, not just a carer.

43:25Mark Steel:Now, you're listening to the news review of Alexander Dragonetti, Cathy Newman and Neil McIntosh. Shall we go to next? Where, Neil, and from what title?

43:34Cathy Newman:I'm looking to the Sunday Times, front page of the Sunday Times. I've just bought an electric car. So I was very interested to see their splash saying that Secure Starmer's planning to water down the UK's electric vehicle sales targets. Now, you might remember this target was set by Boris Johnson back in 2020. 80 % of cars by 2030 should be entirely electric. No hybrid compromise here. Fully electric, 80 % of them by 2030. But the automotive industry's warning that this might cause vast job losses. clearly the government wants to avoid that but it'll be a big U-turn on this green agenda being pushed by Ed Miliband and the net zero agenda there and it ties in really with wider debate about the transition towards more green forms of energy green forms of transport.

44:23Cathy Newman:Robert Colville also in the Sunday Times, page 22 has a really good comment piece today talking about Aberdeen South constituency obviously that's up for grabs this week where the percentage is a very prosperous part of the world, thanks to the oil and gas industry historically. But it's had an extraordinary collapse in its disposable income over the last few years. To the extent you can't map it on scales, it's dropped off the scale.

44:47Mark Steel:It has to do with drilling and everything. That's right. So just taking one question at a time, on your electric car, do you have stress about it running out?

44:55Cathy Newman:I'm coming to terms with that now. You begin to do the equations in your head. So it's a stressful first month or so, and then you get used to it, and you realise the places you can plug in and get a fast charge and you begin to reassure yourself.

45:08Reverend Brian Anderson:Well, I'm one of those annoying Londoners that just got rid of their car. I have no car whatsoever. But I do think it's interesting what you've picked out there because people have got it in for Ed Miliband and his green agenda and it will be fascinating to see how this plays out, whoever becomes Prime Minister, because Andy Burnham's team are sort of briefing today that they're cheesed off with Ed Miliband, sort of assuming he becomes Chancellor. So his future is bound up with our future as a greener country.

45:35Mark Steel:I mean, we will have many listeners who want a green agenda. I understand what you're getting at is the politics of it in the Labour Party. But, Neil, are you turning more green? I don't mean politically. Is your family trying to do less food waste? I mean, have you travelled as a citizen?

45:52Cathy Newman:A little bit. You mentioned travel. My family are about to set off for the World Cup and support Scotland next week. That clearly is one of the least green things you can do. But in terms of, you know, we're switching our electricity use because of the car, we're switching to a greener tariff, we're using off-peak and all that kind of thing. So gradually, but it's an expensive business. And that's one of the things that are in these cars. They cost much more up front. These batteries are not cheap.

46:14Mark Steel:So, and raised in the background there was a story about the drilling industry, which is, of course, of great importance to many listeners, which we will cover on BH. Alexander Dragonetti, The Sun on Sunday, How Gen Z Learns Its History. Now, I'm going to apologise for this word.

46:31Deborah Meadon:Was Anne of Cleves a minger, says the Sun on Sunday? TikTok asking the big questions. Similarly, TikTok asking questions like, did Mary Shelley write Frankenstein while tripping on ketamine? Did Queen Victoria invent sexting?

46:46Reverend Brian Anderson:Doubtedly.

46:47Deborah Meadon:Yes, and was Napoleon Bonaparte a short bloke? And I can actually give you the answers to any of those if you want them. So this story is in praise of learning history in new ways. That's right. The use of the hashtag history talk has more than doubled. The headline is Gen Z are heading to TikTok to learn about the past inspired by things like Bridgerton. So this is a new world. And it's something I've been getting to grips with since the traitors as well.

47:12Reverend Brian Anderson:Well, I think it's fantastic because, you know, I was taught history very badly at school and it's something I regret and have regretted all my life. and I read as much history as possible to try and sort of make up for what I didn't learn at school. So if I was, you know, I am on TikTok, I want to say, make that clear. But if I was as much on TikTok as Gen Z were or Gen Z, I would welcome these pithy little quotes from history.

47:36Deborah Meadon:And I think this is hugely valuable. I used to be a history teacher. I used to stand in front of a classroom. People would generally be quite bored in, you know, back when I did it. This is making it more relevant to people. That's a really positive thing.

47:46Mark Steel:Can you answer? Let's just go through some of the other questions. Is it true Cleopatra had the sails of her ship dipped in perfume so all would smell her as she sailed by?

47:55Reverend Brian Anderson:I'm going to say yes.

47:56Deborah Meadon:I mean, I've got the article in front of me, so I'd be cheating. The answer, in fact, is... Let me guess. The answer is no. The answer is no. Why do we send an ex as a kiss? The answer to that is in medieval times, many people were illiterate and so tying the document with an ex, the ex proved they would honour their contract. Also, I'd like to share that Queen Victoria sort of did invent sexting by commissioning a scandalous portrait of herself. Get this, lounging on a pillow with shoulders bare and hair down.

48:24Mark Steel:Which in those days was a picture for Albert. And then do you want to answer this, Neil? I don't know how you want to reveal yourself in terms of history.

48:35Reverend Brian Anderson:I thought you were talking about Queen Victoria again.

48:37Mark Steel:Was Napoleon Bonaparte a short bloke, Neil? I suspect he was, but I haven't seen the TikTok. OK, no. according to this the French Emperor was noted being 5 foot 2 in French units converted to imperial numbers he was in fact 5 foot 7 which is 2 foot taller than the average thank you Alexander for bringing that a spot of history Cathy, right, we turn back to the news with a thump the front page of the Mail on Sunday says, this is not the BBC reporting this is the headline, Restore Activists Were at a White Supremacy Summit that's what the paper's reporting

49:10Reverend Brian Anderson:yes, it's a fascinating story and it reveals that among those campaigning for restore in the Makerfield by-election was, on Saturday, was a hardened neo-Nazi who was at the extremist remigration summit in Portugal two weeks ago. Don't name him on the edge. I'm not going to name him. But he was, according to the Mail on Sunday there, and of course remigration is this idea of mass deportation of black and minority ethnic populations. And I think the interesting thing about this is Rupert Lowe, who's the former Reform MP, who's now with Restore, set up his own party, basically. His posts on X have just become more and more virulent over the last few weeks, you know, posting about barbarians at the gate, vowing to bring back the death penalty and deport millions of people.

49:56Reverend Brian Anderson:And I think the interesting thing is the impact this has made, because he is now the MP with the biggest internet reach of any parliamentarian. And that's thanks to Elon Musk retweeting him somewhat obsessively. I think the Overton window, you know, people talk about the acceptable window of political debate, seems to have shifted quite significantly to the right. I think he's playing into that. But the question is whether Restore could actually end up depriving reform of winning the by-election in Makerfield because the vote is being split. So is the revolution devouring its children?

50:30Mark Steel:So just a bit of chairing from me. A full list of all the candidates is on the BBC website. and Restore Britain said of this story that Cathy's brought to our attention, described the revelations about the summit as totally irrelevant and a hit piece. Neil McIntosh, as one of the leading journalists in Scotland and the UK, can I ask the effect of Elon Musk, Muskification of politics, is that something we should be waking up to?

50:57Cathy Newman:Yes, his ability to amplify and what he writes on X, need Twitter, has real impact on the streets. We saw protests yesterday that went violent between various parties. His amplification of various messages really, really counts and cuts through in a way that much other media, including my own, it must be said, discant.

51:18Mark Steel:Right, thank you for that. Finally, a few words from you from the Sunday Telegraph, Cathy Newman. Bran flakes. What's going to happen to my bran flakes?

51:25Reverend Brian Anderson:Apparently, bran flakes are being classed as high in fat, salt or sugar, which I just thought they're about the most punitive breakfast cereal you could have. I mean, I have yoghurt, fruit, honey and a healthy dose of granola, which is probably really high in sugar.

51:41Deborah Meadon:Yeah, I mean, it's probably true of quite a few breakfasts, isn't it? The risk is that they're serial offenders.

51:48Deborah Meadon:That is definitely the end.

51:52Mark Steel:I've been evicted. Thank you. Thank you very much for sharing all your work with us this morning. Cathy Newman, her show, The Cathy Newman Show, strange enough, on Sky News at 7pm. Alexander Dragonetti is in The Eye as a commentator and Neil McIntosh runs many newspapers in Scotland. Thank you all. The editor today was Mark Faulkner, the producer, Hattie Nash, the diver, Natasha Mayo, the landlubber, studio direction by Gabriel O 'Regan. The editor, I've already said who he was. To Cornwall now, where Falmouth's hosting its international sea shanty festival. Featuring on the line-up is an all-female femme de la mer with their tune Dolly Pentreath.

52:32Mark Steel:They sent it to us to bid us all the Sunday we deserve. Goodbye.

52:38Deborah Meadon:When Dolly was old to be laying in the ground

52:50Way, laying in the ground

52:59Reverend Brian Anderson:They found pilchips in her pockets for her child so she was bound Way hey dolly pen tree Lay down them fish cases cellar wall Then don't forget the salt to cover them all Lay down them fish cases cellar wall There's seven more baskets from this day's haul

53:22Neil McIntosh:Lay down them fish, gaze to sell a wall Then don't forget the salt to cover them all Lay down them fish, gaze to sell a wall

53:39Reverend Brian Anderson:There's seven more baskets from this day's haul

53:48Neil McIntosh:The United States is about to mark its 250th anniversary. And so on the Global Story podcast from the BBC, we're telling surprising tales of American influence on the world stage and in ordinary people's lives all across the globe.

54:03Sian Williams:We have this ability to export our story and a lot of people have bought it.

54:08Giles Brandreth:I feel like the American dream is alive but not well.

54:11Neil McIntosh:From the BBC, it's the United States at 2.50. Listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts.