Aaron Dessner

27:57But genuinely hanging out with her and with Jack Antonoff and Margaret Qualley were sitting with us. And it was just fun. So I was able to relax and have fun. And she's really, it's intense for her also, I would imagine, because there's always attention on her because of who she is. But she manages to have a good time and to help people around her have a good time. So I was lucky in that sense. And we've, I've even, you know, cause I, we went, we went to the pandemic Grammys all together for folklore when we won. So that I was thankful for that. Cause I, I'd sort of, this was quite different. It was much more like, whoa, this was more in a weird way.

28:40This was more fun. This was like more energy. The folklore one was almost like easier though, because there was just no, you just went and sat at a tiny little table and there was no audience. It was a bizarre scene. Yeah. I was looking at that like, wow, this is such a strange Grammys. Totally. But it is, I think it's been really fun to be around that, you know, as I've been to the Grammys a few times, like the National went years ago when we were nominated for Trouble Will Find Me and we had no idea what the Grammys were actually like. So we didn't realize that our Grammy, the alternative rock or alternative music one that we were nominated for was actually not part of the telecast.

29:22And so we were kind of in our tickets to the actual real, we joke, the real Grammy is the part that's like the eight awards or whatever it is that are actually on TV. Like our tickets for that, we were like way back, you know, not even like in the, in the like nosebleeds and the nosebleeds. And it was kind of like, and we were all just like, well, why did we even come and who cares? And so the next year or a couple of years later when Sleepable Beast was nominated, we just didn't go. And actually Scott was the only one who went because he was in town. And then I was actually in the shower not watching and Ingrid, my daughter who's now 11, but she came in and she was like, daddy, you won a Grammy.

30:01Is that bad? Is that bad? And I was like, oh, well, it's not bad. And I was like, is it good? I was like, well, it's not exactly good. you know but fast forward to folklore grammys it was fun to actually just like have a great time and i think it really deserved to win and and taylor is it was really fun to perform with it was amazing like actually performing with her and jack and then taylor won for best video which was great and so i don't know it's fun it's like i'm learning to just go with the flow and have fun and not really think that much about it. It must be interesting to see her in different environments because when you were working on Folklore and Evermore, it sounds like you were just sort of holed up in your studio and it was during the pandemic.

30:51So I imagine there weren't many people around and you were just collaborating on music and writing music. And then to see her in a setting like the Grammys where she's like one of the biggest superstars in the room. Yeah. What did you learn from seeing those two sides of her? It is interesting, yeah, because I got to know her closely in a time where she was very much out of the public eye. And I think very much the work that we did with Folklore and Evermore, we benefited from sort of everything had stopped. and we were just really making the music that felt natural in that moment. And this kind of exchange of ideas was rapid and very prolific and very, you know, her songwriting and the music I was making and the music we were making together just felt incredibly natural.

31:46And eventually we got to spend time together and do work here at Long Pond. And folklore was all remote, but then ever more we were together more. and we had amazing moments, you know, and just kind of sitting with this, how did this happen? How do we make all of this stuff that is so meaningful to us? And eventually to, you know, when it got released to her fans and to all of my fans and just, it felt like this whole story that had almost written itself during that time. And it was, you know, it was special and it was really different than when everything restarted. And, you know, we, I did work on, I was lucky to participate in the re-recording of Fearless and then of Red and she contributed to the Big Red Machine and there was all the kind of like that collaborative process and energy continues to this day and so I would say now you know she's about to go on what will be the biggest tour in history you know and it's just very much the same person you know it's just even though she's like when I see her in a quiet setting and she's like making dinner or something and the person that has to be, you know, in the spotlight, it's the same, same person.

33:05So I learned a lot from that. It's very, I don't know. It just gives me faith in people and, and, and the way she is kind and appreciative of all of her success. And frankly, like when having worked with her, it's, even though she's has achieved so much it's not that surprising to me because i see how hard she works and how talent talented she is so i don't in that sense i i do i find that really harmonious or something but i i know what you mean it's kind of like it's a different feeling and also i think that she's smart the way that she evolves and even like the music we made for midnight it's like one of our i think the best song we've ever written it's called would have could have should have how did that song come together i mean the truth is that song we wrote that song together and and recorded it while we were together in la for the folklore grammys so that it goes back that far and then the same with high infidelity and those songs we actually recorded in her house the vocals we recorded them then and i just kept making music And it was kind of like after we had made Folklore and Evermore, I started to have ideas, which I would share.

34:24And eventually she obviously made most of Midnight's with Jack and it became something different. But, you know, the High Infidelity and What It Could Have Should Have and The Great War. And we made hits different with Jack and Taylor and I also. And it was great to be a part of that record in that way. It was really special. Are you working on new music now? I'm probably not at liberty to say, but I think we, yeah. I mean, I thought you would say that. It's like once you. Well, it sounds like you're always, it sounds like you're always working. Yeah. It's a continuous flow. Yeah. She's a very, she's a prolific songwriter and she doesn't really stand still.

35:05And I don't either, you know? So there's a nice, there's just a nice exchange of ideas that is ongoing. Do you ever analyze that? Like with Taylor being such a prolific songwriter or with you being so prolific with the music that you write or whoever you're working with, do you sit and analyze where these ideas come from? a little bit yeah like i i've become aware that is for me where the music comes it feels like it comes from inside i originally feel like i became very generative as a musician in terms of creating ideas and sketches i call them but they're basically songs without words when i was a teenager and i was sort of suffered i was a kind of had a very depressive streak in my teenage years, like a lot of people do, but music was this outlet.

36:00And I'd always felt like I was harvesting what was inside this commotional ambiguity or just joy and sadness coexisting inside of me. And it was cathartic just to kind of like harvest it in music and that you could make music, which might really express what you're feeling. And that, you know, that was always what it was. It's how I make music. And sometimes you feel like it rings you dry. Like it can kind of I feel like you're wringing out a rag and there's no more water left or something. Or sometimes I feel a little bit like I don't have anything left to give, but then it comes back and it fills up again.

36:40And there's certain people that I just click with in this very deep way, like Taylor, which I had no idea would happen and neither did she, but somehow she, the music that I shared with her, so Cardigan, that sketch, which was something I had been writing. It was the first song that she wrote for Folklore to music that I had shared. And it was, and she tells the story well, that it felt like there were images in it, in the sound. There was like a story in the sound that she was hearing and that she was able, and she, you know, it's her story and her words, but she felt like it was telling her something.

37:16And Matt has said things like that as well, that he feels like the music, when he listens to it, it's like a soundtrack to a film that's already exists, or something, a story that is writing itself, or it's just somehow he's tapping into something. And I guess that's my feeling is I try to write music that I can listen to on its own and that feels like it's already about something, even though it's not entirely clear what it's about. And then certain writers are able to give it shape and substance. And I love that process. It feels risky when you share it because you just, you like step over that cliff of like, no matter how many songs you've made or how many people you've worked with, it always feels vulnerable when you open yourself up to someone because they might not hear anything or click with anything, you know?

38:07So, and in Taylor's case, it felt really when she asked if I had anything or if I would want to collaborate remotely. And I had this whole folder of stuff I'd been working on intensely. But before I... And that was your solo material, right? To open for the Bon Iver tour? It was, yeah. Or a lot of it was. Or I thought, I didn't really know, but I thought it was stuff I had been developing to try to figure out what that was, you know? And she kind of said in a really beautiful way, she said, it doesn't matter. It could be the weirdest thing you've ever done. I would love to hear it. Or it could be the most unstructured.

38:44But there's a moment of vulnerability anytime you open yourself up and share that way. because I could have shared it and then never heard anything again, you know, or it would have been like, and I feel that way still, even with Matt, who I've written a million songs with. It's like, if the thing I love most, he doesn't click with, it still hurts, you know, or it still feels vulnerable. Well, you have to Jedi mind trick him into liking it. Yeah, I do. Again, like that's elaborate. I've gotten pretty crafty about that too. Yeah. That feels very much like a sibling relationship. It is. Yeah. It's kind of like pretend to care about the thing you actually don't care about because that'll increase the chances he goes for the one you do care about, whatever.

39:31Yeah. I heard John Frusciante talking about something very similar when he brings ideas to the chili peppers. He'll just be really casual about it and act like he's not completely in love with it and attach to it. And the more casual it is, the more likely Anthony and Flea are to just, you know, sort of like take it on and try it out. That's amazing. Yeah. That's it. Bands are these, it's like being in a, in a intimate, an intimate, but platonic relationship with multiple people simultaneously. And you're just like trying to navigate that. Right. In the national, are there like cliques? Like when you guys are on tour, Or who hangs out with who?

40:14Oh, yeah, to elaborate. Somebody asked me recently, I can't remember who it was, but we were going to be in New York. And they're like, oh, maybe we can hang out. But I wouldn't want to take you away from your bandmates. And I was like, we haven't hung out in 15 years or something. Don't worry. But no, there are these cliques where it's like, we joke, there's the running club, which is my brother and I. And Ben Lands and Kyle Resnick, who played trumpet and trombone, are interesting, lovely people. And we all really hang out. It's like we go running and then we'll go to dinner. Whereas Matt and Scott and Brian, they kind of do their own thing and have their own.

40:54Scott hangs out actually with... It's funny, he's really close with all the crew and he's kind of the most likable member of the band. And Matt is very solitary because he kind of needs space and also to rest. So he kind of, you hardly see him unless he's on stage, which is funny. And then Brian is just, he's wonderful. He kind of like sets up a gym and like works out and relaxes all day long and has his own vibe too. But it is, bands are, I don't know, bands, especially the eight, like the band that's the 20th, we're in like, I think it's the 24th year of the band now. It's just like, it's the weirdest thing, you know, people that come around.

41:35Oh, I can imagine. They're just like, what is going on? And especially the age that you got together and the age everyone is now, there's so much evolution, personal evolution that happens during that period of time. Yeah. When you're sort of like separating from being a kid and being with your parents, you're out on your own and then starting your own families. Yeah, everyone, it's true. Everyone has, we kind of like have had all the wreckage, not all the wreckage, fortunately, but a lot of the wreckage of, that comes with the territory of rock and roll and just, you know, fortunately, none of the terrible, nothing too terrible.

42:12but it's like we've all had our moments of struggling and then coming through it. And everyone's been there for each other. So there's a warm feeling to that, but there's also a recognition that you don't have to always be best friends, you know? And that you don't have to hang out when you're not on tour, but that we're there and it is like a family. And some of us spend more time together than others. And it goes way back. So there's still like Brian and I were in the middle, same middle school advisor class when we were 13 and 14 or, and we were on the middle school basketball team together with Bryce.

42:49And that familiarity and that closeness is wonderful when you're in Tokyo and to 2023 and, or when you're like terrified because you're about to go on stage before the biggest crowd you've ever played in front of in Lisbon in 2022. and there's whatever it is, 100 ,000 people out there at a festival. And you know that it's the person that you were like passing the basketball to when you were 13. It's like there is this feeling of like, well, it doesn't actually matter if we fuck this up because there's always going to be another day. And, you know, it does feel like that. But we joke a lot now where I'm like, well, this is like a pretty good song for the late period of the band.

43:32This feels like a high water mark of the late period. Or I'm like, or we joke about older songs. We're like, that was kind of a miss, you know? Do you imagine you all will still be together when you're in your 70s and 80s still playing? It is a funny thing to think about because sometimes I'm like, I'm in a band. That's so ridiculous, you know? But I think we will actually. I think it's like the songs don't get tired and it is interesting. I think I'll play music my whole life and I would want to play music with my brother and with these guys. And it can evolve. And this record that we made, it really feels, it just feels really inspired.

44:10And you can hear the ferocity that we're capable of and the subtlety. And you can hear the improvisation and the composition and the accidental kind of magic that sometimes happens all alongside each other. And that just feels really refreshing to me. Like it would be hard to do that, to make that, but we did. It's kind of scary to think about trying to do it again. But like, that's always what happens is like, you make something and you're like, oh, and you kind of fall in love with it. But then you're like, oh, shit, now I have to try to like, what's next? You know, anyways, I feel very grateful for it right now.

44:46What do you think you would have thought if you were, let's say, like 20 years old, seeing your life now? How do you think you would think of yourself as like, someone who is approaching middle age? it is crazy sometimes to reflect on how you end up where you end up and why your life takes the shape that it does and mine has changed dramatically in the last few years just all the work that I've been doing and music I've been making and it's kind of like I know that I worked up to it and that I can back it up with experience and all the hard work and knowledge. You know, it's like, I don't feel out of my depth really, but it still feels like there's a big element of luck.

45:33And I know so many really talented people equally deserving, equally hardworking that maybe haven't had the same level of success or exposure. And so there's an element of like music and the entertainment industry in general, that I think is kind of haphazard or kind of, it lacks structure and it's dependent on, I mean, I guess hard work and persistence equals luck basically is what I've come to realize. And so with my 20 year old self, I think I had my nose to the ground and I was just, we were raised in a way to, there were high expectations or pressure on us from early age because my dad, I don't know, because of his childhood or something, He didn't have much opportunity growing up.

46:22He was a child of immigrants growing up in Brooklyn and Queens and sharing a room with his three brothers. And just like he wanted us to achieve a lot, you know, and he put a lot of pressure on us. And it was kind of like, it was difficult. I remember feeling like kind of like, ah, that he always expected us to get like perfect grades and be great at everything we would do. But I guess in a positive sense, it created a lot of, I became very hardworking and I didn't ever think I was very good at anything. And it caused me to keep pushing. It's only been recently that I've been able to be like, wow, this is kind of, I guess we, and it happened gradually over time.

47:06You like end up on some big stage with the National looking out and people like there's thousands and thousands of people singing these songs. And you had these moments of like, wow, this is, I got somewhere, you know, or this is, this is interesting. But I still, my attitude is still not to hold that too close because your successes and your failures, you just coexist with all of it. or like the criticism you receive and the plaudits you receive, you have to kind of take the good with the bad. And for every time that you're lifted up by something, you're also, you're going to flail, you know, the next day or be pulled down.

47:46I don't know, but I do feel really lucky. We'll be back after another quick break with more from Leah Rose and Aaron Desner. I firmly believe when it comes to the holidays, you fall into one of two camps. someone who loves holiday music or someone who won't admit they love holiday music. There's something about a voice you love singing that familiar opening phrase, maybe it's Donny Hathaway, maybe it's Mariah Carey, that just flips a switch and you're instantly back into that warm and cozy headspace only the holidays can bring. For me, that feeling pairs perfectly with a cup of Starbucks caramel brulee latte.

48:21That's their signature espresso with steamed milk and a rich caramel brulee flavor topped with whipped cream and a crunchy caramel brulee topping. It's like the sound of the season, but in drink form. And that's really what this season's about. Little moments of pairing, little moments of connection. Sharing a song, sharing a story, sharing a caramel brulee latte. Because this season and every season, together is the best place to be. Come together over your holiday favorites at Starbucks. If you've ever hired for your small business, you know how important it is to find the right person. That's why LinkedIn Jobs is stepping things up with their new AI assistant so you can feel confident you're finding top talent that you can't find anywhere else.

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50:06Every December, we start singing. At church, around the fire, in our cars, with the radio turned up. But have we ever stopped to ask, where did our favorite Christmas carols come from? And what makes them so magical? I think it's probably one of the most perfect tunes to play and to sing. The voices are converging. They're adding this more complex and chromatic harmony. And it gives us that climactic arrival point. Hark is a podcast about the meaning and the making of Christmas carols. Get into the spirit of the season and listen to Hark, the stories behind our favorite Christmas carols. Available now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and at americamagazine.org.

50:59We're back with the rest of Leah Rose's conversation with Aaron Desner. How did you first find music and how did you first find that you could articulate your feelings through music? Yeah. So my dad was a really amazing drummer and he had this incredible teacher in Queens in the early, like late fifties, early sixties. And then he played a lot of like serious jazz in the sixties in New York. And then he moved to Cincinnati and my mom and him got married and he kind of had to get a real job, quote unquote, real job to support us. And we found his drums in the closet when we were, I think we were six years old, my brother and I, and we found it in the furnace room and kind of like pulled them out and he came home from work and we were like, what are these?

51:50And I remember he was excited. He kind of smiled and he set them up in the basement. He sat down to play and it was like, holy shit. It was amazing. It was amazing. And we had no idea. What style drummer was he? Like old school, he held the drumsticks with the old grip and like incredible rudiments and just really, really excellent drummer. And then we just immediately, I started taking drum lessons and gradually we started playing guitar and bass. And it was early like that. I started to feel that I could, it came very naturally to us and we became prolific technically quickly, fairly quickly and started to just, I remember just writing stuff from the very beginning, like when we were 11, 12, 13 years old and just, and my brother started, you know, started studying classical guitar.

52:43We just got really into it. And it's natural, the competitiveness of twin brothers who we shared a room until we were 18 and we're literally staring at each other and we just egged each other on. So early on, I kind of went towards songwriting and my way of doing things. And he went towards like classical technique and composition. and but we would play together and then I when I was 16 I all of a sudden it was like I got hit by a truck not an actual truck but an emotional truck of like I just got really depressed for seemingly no reason and kind of had all the clinical signs of depression and music was the only thing that I felt like doing so I used to sneak out of the house because we didn't have a piano I would sneak out of the house and break into the school which was like a mile away and play the and play the piano like at night yeah on the weekends at night yeah it was kind of a little it was a little creepy or a little bit like what's what am I doing where then I was discovered and it became this worrisome thing and I kind of had I fell behind in school because I was depressed but I was sort of like rapidly growing as a musician um at that time and then teaching myself to play the piano.

54:00And that's kind of like where my way of playing the piano comes from and where I really started to harvest emotion into these, into what I was playing. So that's really, I think it was like 16, 17, where I really felt like this is an emotional outlet. And it's always been that way since then. How did it affect your relationship with your brother when you started to get depressed? It was intense because it was, he didn't feel that and he also I think felt that he had to hold me because we were close and he could see and it got a little scary for a while where it seemed like I was maybe suicidal or just had lost hope or just just really not functioning and also in the pressure cooker of like I was not doing any of my work and not really showing up for school and he kind of showed up he was writing my papers and he was doing my homework and he was literally like holding me for the, it was took sort of a year till I was out of it.

55:02And, um, but that relationship sort of persisted for a long time of me being the one who was maybe struggling and him being stronger and more together. But weirdly now, eventually it's sort of evened out and apparently it's typical with twins. at some point there can be this kind of imbalance or, you know, something like that can happen. But he, it was, I think it was hard for him. It was a little scary, but he really showed up and it allowed him to care for me, which was powerful. And it allowed our music, it did feel like that's when music became something more, because I used to think I I would be like a great athlete or something or that, that I was really into sports.

55:52And I thought, you know, I was so focused on that. And music was just something we did since we were little kids that we were happened to be good at, you know, but I didn't think it, I didn't think much that I would be a musician, but it was like when I got depressed and it suddenly was this, I had this emotional need to like pour myself into it. It just kind of became who I was, you know. When did you form your first band? Was it before college? It was, yeah. Like when we were in freshman in high school, we formed a band with the drummer, the National with Brian. So it was Bryce, Brian and I, and we called ourselves Equinox, which is a terrible name.

56:30But in like, you know. Like the gym. Yeah. There wasn't, didn't exist then, but this was like 1990. But we would play at the parties when there was a lot of drugs and like just weed and acid and stuff at the high school parties. And also there's a lot of like, a lot of kids using football players, like on steroids and just like aggressive people. So like we kind of hid behind our instruments in a corner, just playing, like, just jamming. And it was really fun and we got really good at it. And like, there's actually some recordings from that time of us playing in somebody's barn or somebody's attic or, you know, somebody's patio.

57:11and we would just play songs we had written, but also like Grateful Dead. And we had so much fun, but it was also kind of a way not to interact with anyone. Totally. Yeah, I know. I totally get that. Did you guys sound like the National at all? Well, I wouldn't say we sounded like the National, although even back then, there probably was this chemistry of how my brother and I play together and harmonize with each other and sort of like the patterns or the circular details. And Brian was already a great drummer at that age. And so probably in a way, but no, like I think that that sound took a while to develop into what it is.

57:54And it was sort of around Alligator where you started to, I feel like you can really recognize like, okay, that's, that's how they sound. And then it's obviously developed, developed, but yeah, we were probably more, more like the Grateful Dead or attempting to be back then. You mentioned earlier, you were talking about when you were putting together the songs that would eventually become the new national album, an emotional framework started to become apparent. How would you describe what that emotional framework was, what it felt like? And when was that apparent to you? so there was this like at some point i after having time away from the band and having made all this other music i started to hear ideas were coming where it was like oh this is a national song and then shared them with matt and there was this initial get together in april i think of 2021 where we got together and we and we just everyone bounced off all these initial ideas that i had and some that my brother had.

59:01And Matt wrote a lot to those. And it felt very exciting. And there was this energy, they felt like, oh, we're coming back to this. But after that, Matt sort of hit a wall emotionally and with writer's block. And he just really couldn't finish anything or write anything else for almost a year after that. He just went totally blank and kind of lost himself. And it felt like, but we could all listen to those early sketches in that initial time, which were sort of half finished songs. But we could hear in those ideas a vulnerability and a directness in what he was singing that felt like a weird continuation of Boxer or that era of the National.

59:53and musically it felt like it was in a special place and in a place that we could push. So we all remained hopeful. But it wasn't until a year later when we gathered again, because we needed to, that there started to be a breakthrough where he wrote things like Once Upon a Poolside and Your Mind is Not Your Friend and Send for Me. And these very emotional songs that clearly relate to someone who is struggling emotionally and wondering if they're going to get to the other side and contemplating the end of relationships and sort of what was the worried thing you said to me and I thought we could get through anything or I keep what I can of you.

1:00:43this emotional frame it's like to me it's like an emotional framework of wanting to hold on to people that you know and love but like somehow these structures and these relationships keep keep dissolving or you know nothing's helping somehow whether it's the band whether we're talking about ourselves you know time to he you know he says time to take my silent treatment, it won't be the first. And to me, that's like this acknowledgement that we all, I mean, I've hurt people, he's hurt people. We hurt each other in the band sometimes. And it's kind of trying to acknowledge that and move on and love each other.

1:01:24This is my interpretation. I'm not even sure that's - Do you ever ask him directly about a lyric that you might think he's intending to say something about the band? Do you ever ask him, is that about us? it's funny you say that it's like it's like a cardinal rule an unwritten rule that we don't ask each other about our intent really goes way back to the beginning of the band where it's more it's more interesting i think for all of us if we get to apply our own meaning to things and i think the reason the band works well is because we all can empathize with what he's talking about and but it's also he right he writes in such a way which is part of his brilliance that you can kind of read into it however you want to.

1:02:05And he definitely likes that. So he tends to not say too much about what things are about, you know? Yeah. I imagine as a musician, when it comes time for people to start reviewing your new work, it can be probably hard to read how people either describe the work that you create, or, you know, critics hearing how they're judging what you just created. And oftentimes I see people calling the national sad dad music. How does that sit with you? Thanks for asking. I think it's, well, sad dads. So it was my idea to take that and put it on a sweatshirt, the national sad dads. And we sold like thousands and thousands of them like instantly.

1:02:50And everyone was like, please make sad moms and sad, sad teens. And, you know, I, I think it's a badge of honor. You know, I kind of love that people think of us as sad dads or dad rock or all these things. I kind of think, bring it on. Like, I, I'm so proud to be a parent and also like, it's just life. I think aging is beautiful and interesting. And I, I kind of love everyone's wrinkles and, you know, how we all look and wish people, I wish society wasn't so anti-aging and all of that. It's just really depresses me. But I would also say that the gauntlet of music criticism is really hard for everyone because it's important.

1:03:41And I appreciate journalism and I appreciate it's like necessary, You know, it's like an important part of, I love reading. I love reading substantive journalism. I love things like this, like in-depth discussion with artists you're interested in and with smart people. And I think that's wonderful. What I, what's hard is like being graded by a subjective person in a way that might lift something up or destroy it. And it's kind of the luck of the draw who you get because you could call something brilliant or something pedestrian or dismiss it. And it just depends on your perspective, you know, and what you like.

1:04:20And but what it does, unfortunately, is it hurts, especially younger artists who are coming up or people who are fragile or vulnerable. And I would say a lot of artists are, you know, a lot of people, whether you're making whatever art form you're making, people aren't, you might have a thick skin, but more often than not, you don't. And so like, I've seen people be destroyed by a bad pitchfork review, not in terms of their success, but in terms of their emotional stability. And it hurts, you know, because people spend years working on something and then either get celebrated or torn apart for it in one day.

1:05:01and nothing can prepare you for that, you know? Yeah. I'd love to hear more about you as a dad. It sounds like your studio is close to your house so you can leave one and then go to the other. It's like two parallel universes. Yeah. How do you balance life as the very busy working musician and then home life? It's hard, but it's also, I'm lucky that the studio is right by the house and it kind of, there's this balance that has developed that really does work where I float in and out, but I wake up every day that I'm home and make them breakfast and take them to school no matter what, even if I'm like horribly jet lagged or exhausted and just really try to be present with them.

1:05:45And I've learned to slow down with them and sort of really, my parents never played with us. I don't have no memory of them getting on the floor and playing, or we were just left to our own devices, which is also great. But to me, it's really meaningful to actually take delight in your children and to really meet them where they are, you know? And I feel like I've gotten good at that. And that suits my personality, in fact, just to kind of like play, you know? So it's been really amazing. Yeah, and musically, it's really inspiring just to, They follow it all because they hear me listening. I listen in the car when I drive.

1:06:27I listen to what I'm working on and reflect. And that really helps them kind of just feel into where I am. And they call it daddy music. And actually, my daughter's funny because during Folklore and Evermore, she would hear, there's a story where she once asked me, like, Daddy, do you know Taylor Swift? and I was sort of had sworn been sworn to secrecy because we had to be secret just to avoid any we wanted just to no one to know what we were doing and and I and I totally lied I was like no she's so talented like I wish I'd never and like literally the day before we'd been finishing a song or something but but then later as she you know those records came out and they obviously they fell in love with folklore and evermore but but Ingrid was already a fan of all her other music and so like sometimes she's like can daddy can we listen to taylor and i'll be and i'll put on like cardigan or whatever invisible string or something and she's and she'll be like no not a daddy taylor song like a real she'll be like i want to hear a real taylor song and i'll be like what do you mean what's wrong with it and she's like well like the daddy i like the daddy ones but can we hear like so anyways that's so great yeah one thing i noticed just looking at the artists that you've worked with, it seems like outside of the national, you work with a lot of female songwriters, female musicians.

1:07:48And I'm wondering if you've thought about why that is, or if there's something about your temperament or yourself as a musician, the way you play that compliments women. I think I definitely, having been in a band with dudes for so long, I think I enjoy working with single artists like individual artists and the simplicity of that work where there's really just myself and whoever I'm working with and the it simplifies a lot of the complex psychology of a group dynamics I tend to not that I avoid bands but I'm already in a band you know and my sister's always been a huge influence on my brother and I artistically she's a visual artist and she was a dancer but she's just always really really respected her way of approaching and her like she's very uncompromising and really like the sense of this is clarity and she was such a great listener to us also and i just it was very natural when i first collaborated with sharon vanette and was the first record that i made that i was technically the producer outside of the band.

1:09:02And she was just at an early point in her career. And we met because my sister booked her to play this basement in our neighborhood in Brooklyn. I don't think it mattered that she was woman or man, but like maybe in a sense, I appreciated the different perspective, you know, and also just felt like there were so many dudes at that time making, and now it's kind of nice. Cause it's almost like, where are the dudes or Or what are, like, where's the, like, what are they doing? Because I feel like most of my favorite artists are women and a lot of incredible writers right now. Honestly, it's like, I don't know how else to grow as an artist or a musician other than to make music with other people and see how their brain works, you know?

1:09:46Because that's how you learn. Like, I just made this record with Gracie Abrams that I love. And, like, she's half my age. She's literally half my age. She's 23 and I'm 46. I definitely benefited as much working from with her as she did with me. And I love that. I love that. I love that feeling. You mentioned that there's a bunch of leftover tracks from the sessions that became the new national album. Why not just put those out as the next album? Like, would you consider doing that? Or do you go back to the drawing board and do you start fresh? I would say that might happen because it is, it's like very strong.

1:10:20And there is another album that is basically done. And it's really some of my favorite songs are in that batch. And I think we might do that. But knowing us, what probably happened is some of that will surface on the next album, but we'll probably make a lot of other ideas. And I do think we have this feeling that this is our kid-a amnesiac moment of like there are sister albums that are related and we're going to finish another one much faster than you would think, you know? So that's even like right now I might go downstairs and I can hear them playing. And when I have a feeling they're going to be like, we got something, what do you think?

1:11:02And I'll be like, well, I don't like it, but let's try this or whatever I'll say. But are they all down there right now? They are. Yeah. Cool. So you guys are rehearsing right now for tour? We're like learning these songs. Yeah. So it's always like, you feel like you just have never played music before. You're like, oh, like, you know, your mind is not my, my, your friend. I was trying to relearn the piano part, which is obviously me playing it, but it's like, I completely forgot how it goes after I did it. So it's like, I have to like, oh, so anyways. Well, best wishes with the new album. And thank you so much for talking today.

1:11:36Thank you. Really appreciate it. Thanks to Aaron Desner for giving us a look into the Nationals' inner workings and his approach to producing. You can hear all of our favorite Nationals songs, along with other stuff Aaron's worked on, on a playlist at brokenrecordpodcast.com. You can subscribe to our YouTube channel at youtube.com slash brokenrecordpodcast, where you can find all of our new episodes. You can follow us on Twitter at Broken Record. Broken Record is produced with help from Leah Rose, Jason Gambrell, Ben Tallade, and Eric Sandler. Our editor is Sophie Crane. Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries.

1:12:18If you love this show and others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin+. Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content and uninterrupted ad-free listening for$4.99 a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple Podcast subscriptions. And if you like the show, please remember to share, rate, and review us on your podcast app. Our theme music is by Kenny Beats. I'm Justin Richman.

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