Amanda Shires

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1:57Whether you are booking a once-in-a-lifetime trip or your next weekend escape, discover more with Chase Sapphire Reserve at chase.com slash sapphire reserve. Cards issued by JPMorgan Chase Bank and a member FDIC. Subject to credit approval, terms apply. Amanda Shires is a Texas-born singer-songwriter who got her start at age 15 when she joined the legendary Bob Wills group, the Texas Playboys on Fiddle. After starting her solo career in 2005, Shires continued to play with a number of other groups, including the 400 unit, which is fronted by her husband, Jason Isbell. In 2019, she started the all-female country supergroup The High Women, which includes Brandi Carlile, Natalie Hemby, and Maren Morris.

2:44After the 2022 release of Amanda Shire's seventh solo album, Take It Like a Man, she released an album of covers with the late and reclusive Bobby Nelson, who is primarily known for playing piano in her younger brother Willie Nelson's family band for decades. Amanda initially elicited Bobby to play on her version of Willie's classic, You Are Always On My Mind, but they continued to record together. The resulting collection of songs became the album Loving You, which was released this past June, nearly a year after Bobby's death. On today's episode, I talk to Amanda Shires about Bobby Nelson's unfortunate start in the music business.

3:24Amanda also talks about why she feels more comfortable singing about society's big issues alongside her group, The High Women. And she remembers the time she went to Vegas and gambled away all of her band's tour money, only to win it all back after playing craps through the night. This is Broken Record. Line of notes for the digital age. I'm Justin Richman. Here's my interview with Amanda Shires. Man, great to talk to you. Oh, great to talk to you. There's a lot to talk about, but I feel like I want to start with your record with Bobby. That's a pretty special thing. I really like that record.

4:04We had a great time recording it, and it was nice to return to the songs that I played growing up. I guess for people who don't know, Bobby Nelson is Willie Nelson's sister and longtime piano player with Willie, although she played even before she joined Willie in like the early 70s, I guess, the family band. But she was a pretty quiet person, as I'm led to believe, and she didn't seem to collaborate with a ton of people. I'm curious how you were able to get a record going with her. Well, I'd seen her play, you know, growing up all the time with Willie, but I think she started out when she was playing music, playing revival tents and churches and all that, and then started playing with Willie.

4:51And one of her exes in a band that sold alcohol and quickly got her kids taken away from her. So that put a stop to all of that. And in the time when she was coming up and growing up, she was powerless is what she was, and had to figure out a new way to keep music in her life and get her kids back and eventually rejoin Willie. But I guess our collaboration started because I was considering putting You Were Always On My Mind on my record, Take It Like a Man. And I went down there and we recorded it. And then she decided and I agreed that we were going to make a record together. So you wanted her to be on that song for your Take It Like a Man record?

5:32Oh, right. Yes. I played it in the studio with my piano player, Peter, and it was beautiful. But I just had a feeling that the way to do it right and to do it any justice at all would be to have Bobby on it. And I called and she said yes. And I sent her a bunch of orchids. And we got to the studio. We recorded it and just started talking about songs and life. And we decided that I was going to come back and we were going to make a record. And this first song we would do would be summertime. What's it like hanging out with Bobby? inspiring in the way that she had like she had knowledge of every song ever like you could you could not stump her and then just the way she carried herself with love and forgiveness the the way that she just was able to forgive and lead with love and then also at the same time she was very centering she was very she was very sure of herself um with the piano and also very much about the point of music being to be connection with people or with whatever God you believe in and you know with the heart and with your with your friends which is really really awesome I don't have any tattoos but I often feel like if I had tattoos I would have a Ray Charles and a Willie Nelson tattoo because I feel like that kind of encompasses all of you know american music and all the music i mean ray charles's country record is i still stand by it the best country record ever recorded you say it's the best country record yeah ever recorded modern songs and country music that and along with the time that it came out and um just you know there's a lot that goes with that record yeah yeah yeah wow that's surprising to hear you say it's the best in your in your view absolutely absolutely what makes it so good to you like as a country record.

7:25He can play the shit out of it and it's inspired and even the sequencing is great. The players are great. It's inspiring too, the story of it, you know, him getting his rights to his music and all that kind of stuff at that time. I don't know, it's just fearless to me. Fearless, I mean, we all have fears, so to me it feels fearless in the way that it was made and And then there's some incredible, you know, solos and fills and stuff that are just like, how did you come up with that? Yeah. Yeah. God damn, he's a great player. Like, you know, yeah, knows country music. It's so good. Like, how could you not?

8:03That record's the best country record. I don't care. Wow. Stand by it. I gotta go. I gotta revisit it. I haven't listened to it in a long time. Yeah. Yeah. Damn. And to do that and be black, you know? Can you believe it? Yeah. Like, during the 60s. and that, you know, I don't know, just everything about it is like there's a hero right there. Yeah, yeah, I understand. My first concert was a knockoff, like, boys to men kind of group, but my... Was it New Edition? It wasn't New Edition. No, New Edition was dope. It was... My first was Black Street, New Edition. Black, that's a great show. That's a great show.

8:36Yeah, it was awesome. You remember All For One? They had that song, I Swear? Yes, I do. That was my first concert, but my second was a Garth Brooks concert, so... Oh, wow. being black in a country environment. It resonates. I get it. Yeah, exactly. I get it. But that was pretty mind-altering, I'll say. But to my point, Ray Charles, Willie Nelson, great players. But when you really dig into Willie's music, it's not just Willie, although it's Willie. There's much that he brings to the table. But by the time it really, in my view, kind of finds his stride in terms of recordings and all that, you know, it's with Bobby in the band.

9:19She really has a beautiful way of accompanying Willie. Was it difficult to get her to consider kind of slapping her name on a record? Like, it's not like as if she's accompanying you on this. It's like you and her together releasing something. Yeah. Yeah, no, that was really easy. And it came along organically, like just sitting around playing together. I think, too, we'd played together some in the past. I was introduced to her first by Mickey Raphael, the harmonica player. And at that point, they had me on stage to join them and the band at a show, and they were going to have me up for one, and they wound up keeping me up for, like, I don't know, a whole lot of songs.

10:05And then I'd always go sit in with them. But after that show, we started talking about how much we liked each other's choice of clothing that night, and then the solos. And, you know, we kept on talking to each other when we'd see each other. And then when I saw her, she said, we're going to go on tour so we could go shopping and play music. And I said, yeah, we are, but we're going to need a record. She said, we're going to need a band. And I said, we could just be the two of us. And so our plan was to go around and spend a few days in a town, play a show and buy some killer shoes. What year was this?

10:40That we recorded? No, no, no, that you guys had that conversation about. The stuff with the clothes and stuff, that happened a long time ago. But the part where we actually were going to make a record, that happened after we recorded Always On My Mind. Wow. Do you remember what you guys were wearing when you first met? Black. Head to toe black. And I think, you know, she wasn't a person that drew a lot of attention to herself. But I think that that was, she started playing so young and then she got her kids taken away so young. And then when that happened, she went to school, got a degree, started working, then was demoing pianos and working to get her kids back in a time when you really couldn't do it solo.

11:23And then she did it. And then that's why she rejoined after, you know, Willie, after they were good and grown and everything. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She's such an incredible character, man, in person. I can't imagine like if that had happened to me and then I got my kids back. Sure, shit, I'll sit in the back. I don't want anybody to notice, but I'm going to play. Right, because she got her kids taken away because she was playing in environments that was apparently unsuitable. Yeah, and they called her all kinds of names like a whore. And her reputation was solely just for like she wouldn't even drink at the places.

11:57And she, you know, the churches would barely have her back. Damn. Yeah. And she was raised by her grandparents, or her and Willie were. And when her granddad passed away, they threatened to take the kids away from the grandmother, saying that they didn't think she could provide and didn't even give them a chance, you know. But she managed to keep them. But, yeah, I just can't imagine. So that is, that's sort of the mythology around her, is that she was just kind of to herself, you know. Like, in terms of she didn't really want, wouldn't do interviews, didn't want to. I don't blame her. I mean, you don't want to, you know, stay out of trouble.

12:36Yeah. That's a fascinating but also kind of a sad story, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I didn't consider that. But like I said, she led with forgiveness. And I was like, how do you get through all this trauma and then, you know, get your kids back and they're grown and healthy and everything. And then suddenly two of them, not suddenly, but then two of them die within six months of each other. And then the world is a vampire. And she said the easiest thing to do, which is sometimes hard, is to forgive. I don't know where she gets that grace, but the Nelson family in general seems to have that level of grace and ease about life.

13:11I mean, they're fashion forward with a lot, not fashion forward, but, you know, with weed and all kinds of things, you know. Yeah. I mean, they were ahead of the times spiritually and culturally. You came up in the same town as them, right? No, the same state. Same state? It sounds a lot alike. They grew up in Abbott, which is more hill country-esque, I guess. Got it. But Lubbock, isn't that where Willie's place is now? No, there's a place in Lueckenbach and one in the Flores Country Store. I guess it's Perdinand Alice area. Yeah, but Lueckenbach is a different place than Lubbock. I think they're probably six hours apart.

13:55I'm messing up my Texas geography. It's okay. It's a big state. It really should be four. But no, I grew up playing Texas Playboys music when I wasn't, you know, I thought when I first heard West Side Connection, they were playing fiddles. But it turns out it was a synthesizer. So part of my life was a hoax. Wait, hold on. Me trying to learn. Was that like, so were you a West Side Connection fan? Were you listening to rap? I listened to all of it. Yeah, I have clippings from when Tupac died out of the Lubbock newspaper. I watched MTV Jams Countdown every day. I wrote fan letters to Tyrese. I have response letters.

14:31From Tyrese? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it was like Y2K in the neighborhood, like 1999, and he signed stuff about Y2K and all this. But no, I was like, I listened to all the music, and I learned all the music. And yeah, everything from Gangstar to Woody Guthrie. Wow. Pac's one of my favorite, I don't know. Did you see how they arrested somebody in Vegas in connection with it? Oh, my God. Yeah, yeah. I'm too deep into that rabbit hole. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We need to find some shit out. Yeah, no, I think it seems like they're close to figuring that out finally, which is a beautiful thing because that was one of the most crushing things.

15:12Part of me still hoped he was like living in an island somewhere. I always have that hope as well. He was so larger than life, you know, and unbelievable. At 26, he spent a year in prison, so 25 years. six five put out six albums plus all the other stuff that was recorded plus like five movies plus yeah just all the stuff i mean it's just insane insane work i think what so i'm imagining you're joking though that you thought it was fiddle on west side connection no i i yeah on that song bow down that part goes i was very young how was i supposed to know about synthesizers you thought the bow down sound you thought that was yeah yeah i did and i learned it i was like i had this dream i was gonna join my dream one day was to play a violin with method man and while i did get to meet him um in the wu-tang i didn't ever get to play with him but he did let me dance on stage did you tell him that story i didn't i got i got i'm usually good at over oversharing but that time I was like good job Shires didn't overshare is that really do you really talk to yourself that way like I mean you know when I do a good job I mean we all talk to ourselves in our brains um and most of it's a beat down but that time I was like good job not oversharing I feel like I don't know I definitely talk to myself I'm definitely a self-talker to psych myself up but i just assumed from your music that you were pretty sure of your movements through the world oh no god no no where does the confidence in your music come from oh that's only happened of late and that's because i feel like for me i feel like i've always felt like i've had to have some sort of like uh certificate or or something to say that i'm allowed to do the things that I do or call myself a thing.

17:10Like, I didn't really feel like I was much of a writer at all until I got my degree at Sewanee, although I was writing. And, I mean, not the worst at it. But I don't know. I guess maybe we all have imposter syndrome. I don't know. Everybody seems to say they have it. I know I do. I definitely have it, but I'm also like, you know, I'm not. there's so much opportunity as a musician for failure and embarrassment and and so many opportunities to be exposed as a as a fraud as it were you know but yeah it's like so it's like that's a pretty wild decision you've made to i mean i don't know how do you how do you handle that because it's like to have impossible i hide from most opportunities for embarrassment and failure and I'm able to do that in my chosen you know path right more or less I mean I know I can play and I know I can write but I I don't know why it exists I mean I don't know why it exists I guess because some things are just maybe to me it feels like the purpose of life I guess is growing and learning it feels like you can't master anything in the world so how could you be a thing if you can't master a thing like and we'll never truly master a violin we'll never truly master the words on the page i mean they're always moving and living and shifting and yeah i mean actually now that we're talking about it i'm going to think about it more because it doesn't really make you an imposter so much as it makes you like you said afraid to fail but i guess that's that's a beautiful thing to your point of like words are um you can never master a language because language is a living breathing thing that's always changing evolving adapting nobody'll give a shit if you do it in latin right right right the two latin scholars alive might but it's like music's the same i mean like you know like like fiddle violin music and the instrument's the same it's like you're always in conversation with the current sort of time and place and leaving it up to the next sort of group of people to move it forward or backwards or just laterally or wherever you know in some sort of way it's like music for sure is always evolving and changing and that's what keeps it hopefully interesting for years to come it does and then you learn a lot about how it changes depending on the folks you get in the room to play with you.

19:42And that can be really fun. We're going to pause for a quick break and then come back with more from my interview with Amanda Shires. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. October 10th is World Mental Health Day. And this year, let's flip the script and focus the attention on thanking the therapists who made an impact on people's lives. Thank you, therapists. BetterHelp therapists have helped over 5 million people worldwide on their mental health journeys. That's millions of stories, millions of journeys. And behind every one is a therapist who showed up, listened, and helped someone take a step forward.

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20:45And it works, with an average rating of 4.9 out of 5 for a live session based on over 1.7 million client reviews. This World Mental Health Day, let's celebrate the therapists who've helped millions of people take a step forward. If you're ready to find the right therapist for you, BetterHelp can help you start that journey. Our listeners get 10 % off their first month at BetterHelp.com slash broken. That's BetterHelp.com slash broken. The greatest music stories aren't always in the songs themselves. They're in the late night studio sessions, the chance encounters, and the cultural moments that shaped entire movements.

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21:58Whether you're a music journalist, industry professional, or someone who just lives for understanding the stories behind the sounds, Claude matches your level of curiosity about what really drives great art. Try Claude for free at Claude.ai slash brokenrecord and see why the world's best problem solvers choose Claude as their thinking partner. Lexus is a company that believes in the importance of setting a standard, which I can appreciate as someone who holds themselves to lofty if not ridiculous standards, especially with the car I drive. The standard Lexus has set for themselves is to experience amazing.

22:31Lexus measures success by the feeling and emotions evoked in a driver, like exhilaration and joy. Amazing can only be achieved by knowing people on a deeper level. The standard of amazing results in a feeling in drivers that their car was built in anticipation of them. Machines that make you feel more human. Because a car that doesn't make you feel something is a car that stops short of amazing. Experience amazing at your Lexus dealer. we're back with more from amanda shires who are some of your favorite people to play with i really liked playing with bobby but my favorite people to play with i love playing with my piano player peter levin he's great i met him in the greg allman band when i was opening for them and he's fantastic and uh i love playing with all the 400 unit members they're fantastic Jason's band.

23:21Yeah, Jason's band. They're good. Good guys, too. I recently played with the Asleep at the Wheel band. Ray Benson and them, they were fantastic. I mean, it's rare to get on stage and play with anybody that's no good or no fun because I don't really operate in that world much, that no fun world. Are there some times you have? oh yeah sometimes you get into situations with um in studios like when i first moved to town where i worked with some people that i like now in hindsight know that the reason that wasn't fun was because of the people in the room but and then you get some folks that operate in the top 40 world that have very interesting uh facial hair and haircuts and you're like you know they're they're little Napoleons running around everywhere.

24:16That's not the whole top 40. I'm not trying to talk shit on all of them, but there are some serious ass kissers out there and then you try to tell them something. They're like, no, but X, Y, and Z said this. And I'm like, well, you were so boring. X, Y, and Z meaning like some industry person. Yeah. Damn. Do you feel like a commercial artist, like an artist who's operating? Or do you feel? I feel like an artist, but I know I'm not in what they call the top 40 country genre, and that suits me just fine. I don't mind wherever they put me because I'm not really looking to get into wars with folks that are ding-dongs, releasing songs like that crap-ass Jason L.

24:59Dean song. I mean, I don't need to get in that argument every day. That's a piece of shit. So, I mean, you don't at all feel kinship with contemporary popular country. I do with some of them, but there's just not enough room. And so if there's not enough room, I don't want to be in your club anyway. If you don't let me in the club, I don't want to be in your club. Do you really feel like they won't let you in the club? Oh, hell no. You have to be, like, poised and say the right things, and you have to, you know, believe in wrapping yourself in the American flag. I mean, my cousin did six tours and killed himself.

25:32I'm not wrapping myself in the American flag. And among other things, I have no bodily autonomy, and I will talk about it. They won't let you in that club if you're going to talk about it. Wow. How do you square that with, you know, working in the country idiom, so to speak? You know what I mean? Like, because the country feels more popular than it's ever been. It's funny. I live in Long Beach, California. Okay. I was walking on the beach the other day, and I saw— Do you ever run into Giveon? No, I don't. Because I heard he lives there. You live in Long Beach? Yeah. Really? Wow. Okay. That's what I heard.

26:05Okay. I really like that. I like the previous record a lot. Yeah. yeah i love givey on great great voice i miss i miss uh baritones yeah let's tell him i need if he needs a violinist or a fiddlest i will i will okay but i see teenagers like like you know long beach in in my history here has never been a ton of people that have like when you're just out in the out in the world like on the beach particularly listening but it's like everywhere i go now it's country music and yeah right it feels like a like a boom time for the genre you know in some ways i think there there is that just because there's luckily that the time we're in we can find music other ways than what we're what we used to be limited to with just the regular old radio like now we've got the internet and hopefully the algorithms don't kill everyone but um like they say people over 35 don't listen to new music i was reading that recently too but we've got ways that we find music and we got younger than 35 by the way rarely listen to new music too like it really it doesn't seem doesn't seem that way yeah yeah it doesn't does it yeah but it's cool because you can find music now on you know on the many shows you have at your at your streaming platforms and your um you know tv shows and all that stuff yeah yeah that's cool it's a lot of a lot of music more music that way.

27:28I watched your video for Bad Behavior, and a lot of people commenting, they discovered that song in the grocery store. Nice. Yeah. The politics of sex at the grocery store. That sounds nice. I like that. I mean, my daughter discovered Christopher Cross at the grocery store. Really? Yeah. Sailing? Ride Like the Wind. Oh, Ride Like the Wind. Or whatever it is. Yeah, she's like, I need that on my playlist. It's like that and Bad Bunny. It's awesome. Christopher Cross getting the mix. That's incredible. The grocery store. Damn. That song, by the way, Bad Woman, that's an incredible, Bad Woman, that's an incredible song.

28:08Oh, thank you. That's a gangster song. I mean, let's go. Let's go. When did you write that song? I think it was, I wrote that one on the fly, kind of like in a 10-day haze of writing. I like to write a record, and then I like 10 days before or so, I get into a frenzy of wondering if I have the whole collection. And then I'll do one song a day. And then once I'm in the studio, I'll sometimes even write, too. But my friend Lawrence Rothman, who produced my record, they sent me a— You did a great job producing it, by the way. I love the sound. Man, they're so awesome. And then when I say something in the studio and nobody hears, they have a very low voice.

28:50So they said, they'll say, she said, could you do this? This is my bad impersonation. And then everybody's like, oh, shit. Yeah. It's like, it sounds like the voice of God. Their voice, their voice is so low. They're such a tidy, you know, they don't weigh a lot. It's just interesting juxtaposition. But so you, you kind of got in like a 10 day writing haze and you're always concerned you don't have the right material. Yeah, always. And then they sent me this folder of what we call randoms. We call them randoms now. That's just basically tracks they've made up where it can be drums. And sometimes it'll be piano.

29:30Sometimes it'll be beats. Sometimes it'll be different stuff. And I just would go through and listen to them. And I found that one. And I really liked it. And moved a few measures out and in. And then had a track. And I wrote to it, which was the first time I ever tried doing that, which was pretty fun, actually. You wrote to the track? Yeah, I'd never done that. And they were scared to send me a folder of tracks. I was like, well, I'll try anything seven or eight times. And so I wrote to that. Seven or eight times. That's a hell of a lot of times to try anything. Because you think you'll learn your lesson, but it usually takes more than one time.

30:07Yeah, but it's like when you try something, And then like, even if you didn't try something out or I don't know, say, I mean, how many times have I told myself I was never going to drink whiskey and didn't keep doing it? And then I did it again. It's like, OK, I guess it's time number eight. That's hilarious. I'm going to steal that seven or eight times. Yeah. What about the track like appealed to you? Did it immediately resonate with you or did you sort of just take it as a as a challenge? Like, oh, let me just see if I can write to this or. Well, it was a folder of them. So I switched through them and it was actually, I actually wrote a verse that I wanted Givion to sing on, but he never responds to my emails because I wanted to do a remix.

30:49But it's like, come on, man. Surely you can handle getting an email from me. Surely you've got three seconds. I already wrote it. Just go sing it. Quit being like that. That would be an incredible song for him to feature on. And there is a really like, you know, there is a, I guess it's, I don't know, soulful R &B. There's like a vein in there through the whole record of like, it's super soulful. the whole record is incredibly soulful oh thank you yeah and really i'm proud of it yeah and it's really like i said like sometimes i was listening to when i've listened to it it's like in its way it has what resonates with me when i listen to pak which is kind of has this attitude you know it has like a real strong like i don't give a fuck yeah has that always been a part of your you said that's sort of new to your music has it always been that sort of self-assurance and confidence that you said is sort of...