Ben Kweller

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45:12Find the one with BetterHelp. Our listeners get 10 % off their first month at BetterHelp.com slash broken. That's BetterHelp.com slash broken. between radish and and shasha your your first solo record that's a good period yeah what what was happening in terms of your your songwriting and your development well i started to write a lot more autobiographical songs a lot i started to really develop sort of i guess what the ben Queller sound is, which is just very sort of on the nose, straight up direct. It is what it is. And also when you write for a band, sometimes there's like a feeling like, well, it's like everybody in the band has to kind of vibe with the song you write because you're representing the band through these songs, right?

46:03And so a big moment that happened in that period was I met my wife Liz. So Radish needed a bass player and a producer we were working with, Bryce Goggin, amazing producer, did like all the pavement stuff, bunch of Lemonheads records that I love. Bryce heard about a bass player in Boston, Josh Letanzi. So me and John David Kent, the drummer from Radish, we fly up to Boston. We audition Josh. He's great. We're there for a few days one of the nights he had a gig he was playing with a band so we went to the concert to watch him on stage and you know check out his gig and at that gig he introduced me to all of his friends and liz was one of the friends wow so i meet liz and we just hit it off like it was like we knew each other from another life like another you know kind of just an energy thing it's 1998 98.

47:00And she said, Oh, you're from Texas. Cool. I'm actually coming through Texas. I'm going on a road trip with my best friend, Anna. And we're coming through Texas. And I said, Oh, well, you got to stay at my place. And she's like, Oh, perfect. Meanwhile, you know, my place is my bedroom at my mom and dad's house. Because, you know, I'm 17 at this point. Liz was 22. And I don't think I mentioned that I was 17. Looking back, she's like, I totally assumed you're at least 18 because you're like on a business trip in boston like with your band like it was you know what i mean like didn't realize you were like a high school dropout and so they eventually got to texas and the rest is history really i mean i think maybe a month later i told my parents hey i'm you know most of my friends are going to college i'm not going to go to college i want to get closer to new york keep pursuing music so i'm going to move to connecticut and live with Liz because she left Boston, had to go back to Connecticut where she grew up.

48:01And so I moved to Connecticut and lived there with her in her childhood home. And that's where I started writing this new body of work. So I would go into New York City because Radish still had this contract with Mercury, but really now it was Island Def Jam Music Group. And I would talk to them, you know, like hey you know we just made this great album with bryce gogan at muscle shoals alabama and it was funny because like i'm trying to tell them like how good this album is meanwhile it's like it was like a double album 18 songs like really decadent and like just me spreading my wings you know and they're just like it's never gonna come out basically it never did and in fact actually i'm we're going to release it we're working that's a project we're working on like the unreleased radish album which and what's really cool about that record is that there's like four songs on it that i ended up re-recording for shasha and at that time pro tools came out with this product like a do-it-yourself it's called like the inbox and it was like a do-it-yourself record at home situation because i i had like a tascam cassette recorder but this inbox thing was new and so I started recording songs in my apartment in Brooklyn.

49:21We left Connecticut moved to New York so I made a CD called Freak Out it's Ben Queller and we pressed up a thousand because I looked around the room I'm like I don't have a band it's just me so I'll be Ben Queller I'm solo so I started playing gigs just like you know how I started as a kid like just calling around and I started getting gigs in the Lower East Side and then there's another band starting called The Strokes and we become friends and playing gigs and the Moldy Peaches are starting so now it's like early 2000s right in New York which was a vibe and one day I get a phone call from Evan Dando of the Lemonheads which was a complete hero of mine like up there with Kurt Cobain and the whole thing he seems like a cool dude so cool so I get this message Ben this is evan dando calling i can't stop playing this freak out record give me a call back bye and i was like oh my god holy shit so i call evan back i'm like hey it's ben queller um he's like hey dude do you want to go on tour and i was like yes i do he's like great pick me up at the airport tomorrow at 12 and we'll head up to boston for a show and i'm like okay i'd like i don't know like it's like he also just needed someone to pick him up at the airport those kinds of characters it's the best And so I throw my guitar in the trunk of my Volvo and I drive to the airport, pick up Evan.

50:46And for like four or five months, all I did was open for him. And so like all of my first fans as Ben Queller were Lemonheads fans. Good fans to have. Yeah. And also like this is the other thing is like Evan calling me was such a moment because up until that point, it was just like business people that were kissing my ass and like you know we're gonna make you a star kid like you know yeah and it was that was just so fickle and flighty and you know not real at the time but evan calling me was like the first person that i an artist that i actually respected and looked up to and wanted to be a peer with you know and so that was like probably the most meaningful bullet point you know in this timeline and so then from there it was like he introduced me to juliana hatfield i'd start opening for her and you know then jeff tweede got a copy of freak out and so it just like started becoming a thing so meanwhile i would take these flyers to the island fgm music group office of like hey guys i'm opening for wilco and or the lemon heads they would be like how are you doing like how are you getting these gigs you're not ready you're not ready to you should be writing and demoing you know like i was in there and I'm like well I'm already meanwhile like you know I did make this bootleg cd without telling anybody you know I was just like trying to hustle it man yeah so one day I was at a gig opening for Evan and Ben Lee was also on the bill where we became friends and this guy came up to me after the gig and said hey my name is Michael McDonald not from the Doobie Brothers yeah my name is michael mcdonald and i just started a record company with dave matthews it's called ato records and we really want to sign you we want you to be our first worldwide signing and i was like okay let's do it and so the day i got radish basically departed from mercury ben queller signed on to ato records wow and those early days i was that's 2001 early days ato yeah it was their first worldwide they had licensed the david gray album which did amazing in the u.s and uh so then we went in and recorded shasha what was the process of making shasha with ato as sort of your label was it that was cool yeah um we recorded in in new york at this really famous studio called seer sound which used to be the hit factory back in the 60s john lennon did a lot of solo work there so we showed up day one we worked with a great producer a british producer it's funny actually my first three albums were all produced by british yeah kind of a thing you know that's that's my that's my 60s british invasion influence yeah um so yeah we recorded shasha i mean at that point it was josh who was in radish you know who introduced me to my wife and then john david the Radish drummer was the drummer.

53:48So it was kind of Radish was the band for Shasha. But it was different, at least from the stuff that got released. I mean, your singing style had changed quite a bit. Sure, for sure. Yeah, because I mean, like the Radish stuff that was released is this album, Restraining Bolt, which was like our sort of major label debut. And yeah, I definitely like had that sort of classic American singer thing from the 90s that you're kind of sounding British, you know. you know i want to fly take me to the sky you know that was like oh so common in the post grunge era i kind of outgrew that by the time i went in and made shasha i thank god the way you developed it seemed like it was a really original style yeah well you know and i embraced the piano you know because like in in the radish group there was no piano i just played guitar and sang but you know Piano is where it all started for me as an artist, really.

54:46And so I had these songs that I loved on the piano. In other words, Falling. There were just some real good piano songs. And I just knew if I'm going to be a solo artist, piano is equal to guitar in my book. It's a 50-50 thing kind of in my world. And also it being a debut album and knowing who the hell Ben Queller was, I really intentionally made the track listings sort of unique and eclectic, a rock song into a folk song into a 70s piano ballad into a psychedelic trippy thing. I love so many types of music, and I didn't want to just be one thing. I wanted to just kind of show people a little bit of everything, like all my flavors, here's all my flavors, and then stay along for the ride, and I'll make a bunch of albums, hopefully.

55:39That's kind of what, in my mind, that was like the game plan. Yeah. You know, you might get a lot of flavors on it. Maybe Elliot Smith would be another person who you might get a rock song and take more of a folk into a piano ballad, but in no way sounds like an Elliot Smith record either, you know? You know, Beck was an artist who really would do that sort of like back and forth, a bunch of different stuff. And I always loved his early work. Like all of his work's great, but at that time, definitely was inspired by a lot of his early stuff. I just, not even inspired by, but just like, I really like fucked with it.

56:13And like, like I, I related to what he was doing, you know, like I would listen to Beck and be like, oh, I feel like I know that guy. Like, you know, it was relatable to me and probably to like millions of other people who listened, but you know, that was just in my little world. But then also artists like, you know, Neil Young or Tom Petty, like, you know, and particularly Neil, I would say, you know, going back and forth from piano to guitar, but then Nils Lofgren I mean if you listen to his first solo album which is just called Nils Lofgren's great underrated amazing album you know he kind of switches between guitar and piano so I naturally that's kind of I just as a kid was like that's kind of what you do in rock and roll you play a little piano here you play a little guitar and you sing on both those songs you know yeah that's what ties it in is the voice did you ever get feedback from from Dave as like an artist like Dave actually would come to the studio when we were recording Shaw Shaw.

57:07We had a lot of hangs with Dave. Yeah, it was great. He was so fun to be around. Would he give input or was he hands off and just kind of letting you do your thing? He was pretty hands off creatively. I remember he would talk about video ideas, which was really fun. Like this song, in other words, one of the piano songs. He was like, we need to go because it mentions butterflies in the song. And he was like, we got to go. there's this place in Mexico where the butterflies like come alive at a certain time. Like, I'm just picturing the video now, like, let's go. And I'm thinking in my mind, I'm like, well, dude, you're Dave Matthews.

57:40Like you can go anywhere to shoot any kind of video, but I'm like, kind of like this guy that's never put out a solo record. Like, you know, I don't know if that's on the budget. Yeah. Yeah. ATO. Is Dave Matthews subsidizing this? Yeah, exactly. Like, I mean, you really want to spend it on a video, you know, what a great guy. I mean, we had some great times together. It was really fun early days ato i was not so much paying attention to the mechanics of how things worked at that time but i remember the shasha record and me and all my friends really loved that record we were in bands at the time you know and just trying to figure things out and then i just remember at some point and you can correct me if i'm wrong but i have a memory of like there being commercials on tv for like on my way like your next album like yeah it was like whoa this That sounds familiar, actually.

58:31There was something in... so ATO Records went through RCA Records as just for distribution and stuff. And I think there was something in ATO's agreement with RCA that if an album ATO puts out, does certain numbers, 100 ,000 units or more or whatever, then the next album upstreams to RCA. RCA was like, okay, well, that's good enough for us, so we want to be involved. And so I think, and Shasha hit that target, whatever it was. And so then for On My Way, RCA definitely got involved. And I do remember there were some commercials at that time that I don't remember what they were. God, I'd love to find them.

59:14Be fun to watch. Yeah, same. I don't exactly remember what they were, but I just remember thinking, that's wild. Like, okay, I'm finding out there's a new Ben Queller record coming from my TV. That's cool. Bizarre. It wasn't unexpected. And that's an amazing album. Yeah, thank you. I love that album because it's very raw, and that's Ethan Johns behind the wheel on that, driving the recording console. And yeah, we didn't even use headphones. We just set up standing right in front of the drum kit, two guitars and a bass player in a little circle, and just played everything live. So we played really quietly, and without headphones, you've got to play quietly to really hear each other.

59:57It was a really interesting way to record. my guitar player at the time was mike stroud who one of the best guitar players i've ever known and we toured together he eventually went on to form ratatat which is such a cool group really are you yeah that's mike stroud so if you go back and listen to the on my way album the guitar solo so mike's in the right speaker i'm in the left speaker so the guitar solo is on the rules and disaster like those songs are basically rat-a-tat guitar player you know why half of rat-a-tat is that record so it's pretty cool so you know on my way kind of kicks up to the level of rca feeling like we can we can we can deal with this kid you know also like kind of broke through commercially yeah to a degree yeah and then you do your self-titled record yeah so you know on my way is an interesting documentation because it's like really raw like no overdubs no headphones it was just a band playing songs you know and it's really got a cool vibe to it which is kind of maybe in hindsight unfortunate because like it had the biggest push from the from rca you know but we deliver like this album that was like super lo-fi and you know very vibey but like definitely no hits on it kind of a thing you know but my third album i really wanted to do something really expansive and just very layered and i heard a bunch of instrumentation and i met with gil norton great producer in london and we were talking about the album we're talking about tracking it and okay like who's gonna play the instruments and i'm like well i got my bass player josh and you know this drummer john david you know played on the first two albums and we can do mike stroud you know on guitar or something and then gil was like who's playing on these demos because we were listening to some of the demos i've made i said oh well i played all the instruments on the demos it's like oh mate he's like well have you ever thought about recording the album just you i was like well no not really but it sounds kind of interesting he's like oh man i think that would be really fun he's like i've only ever been in the studio with bands so it'd be really kind of fun to just work with one artist and just like that does it all like you know we could just like layer everything up and so that's what we ended up doing so he came to new york and we recorded at this little studio called the magic shop and it was like a musical playground they had two pianos they had a two grand pianos a black one and a white one one was in tune one was out and we had them like facing each other like yin and yang it looked pretty cool and so we purposely kept one out of tune then you got the organ and then there's a glockenspiel and then at the other end is the drum set and then here's a wall of amps we set it up all in a circle because there's only going to be one source being played at any given moment so you don't have to worry about bleed or anything like that so it was just like what do you want to record whatever you're inspired to record you just press record and pick up that instrument So it was really cool.

1:03:03So like every track, it's very piano heavy. Every song pretty much, it's like we would do a take of the in-tune piano, take of the out-of-tune piano. Then we'd add like Glock and Spiel. It definitely has like this sort of like there's like a Springsteen feel or like more of like a Jeff Lynne style, just layered, you know, a hundred acoustic guitars. But it all kind of comes together into one sound in a really unique way. also at that time Liz was pregnant with our first child and so we're living in New York and that was an interesting dynamic because we were the first of our peer group to actually have a baby that was kind of like an interesting you know because like up until that time you know it was like touring and rock and roll and going staying out late you know you don't have to answer to anyone you know and so like now it's like oh we're pregnant we're having a baby which we're so excited about and now I'm in the studio by myself so it was like kind of like one of the most liberating recording experiences but also one of the most lonely but it also I feel like has some of my best songs it's got this song called 13 which is sort of one of my best love songs I feel yeah so that was my self-titled album and then after that as a songwriter you know whenever i would write a song i would put it in my sketchbooks i would always make lists of songs like buckets i call them like different buckets of songs they're each buckets an album a potential album i guess and growing up in texas you know we talked about how you know it was all beatles british invasion and then nirvana but then there's the third pillar of of my musical lineage which is the music that would be playing around me like when i'd go to walmart or like sitting at applebee's having lunch and that would have been the class of 89 country music garth brooks alan jackson travis tritt all that stuff so like there's like definitely a lot of country so i would write country songs even going all the way back to radish i would just sometimes you can't help what you write.

1:05:15It just pops out. And I'm like, oh, that's a cool country song. So I'd put each one of those in this country album bucket. So after the self-titled album, I'm like, okay, this will be my fourth album. I have like 10 songs here that are really good country songs. So that's going to be the next one. And so I called it Changing Horses. I decided, oh, well, I made the first three albums in New York. like, maybe I should go back to Texas for this one. And at that time, the band Spoon, their drummer, Jim Eno, he had just built a great studio in Austin called Public Hi-Fi. And Jim was like, dude, come down here to Austin.

1:05:53Make the record at my new studio. You'll love it. And so we rented a house in Austin for a few weeks, and we recorded Changing Horses, which is one of my personal favorites that I've made. It's so unique. And I call it a country album. It very much is. It's got pedal steel and dobro all over it, played by this amazing musician, Ben Kitterman. But it's my flavor of country. You know, it's a Ben Queller album, like for sure. So we made that. We go back to New York. Turns out that Changing Horses was the last album for ATO Records in the contract. We're back in Brooklyn and Liz is like, man, life was really nice in Austin.

1:06:36And Dorian, our son, was born before this. So actually when we came down to record Changing Horses, Dorian was with us. He was like one. So when we were back in Brooklyn, she was like, life was really easy in Austin. Having a baby there was super easy and cool. And so we decided to move to Austin in 2008 or 2009. So we get to Austin. I always in the back of my mind knew that I wanted to have a record company because I've just always been a record nerd and I've just been obsessed with recording other people and loving bands and records and the whole thing. And so instead of renewing with ATO, I told them, I'm like, hey, I love you guys so much, but down in Austin, just had a baby.

1:07:20I'm like just changing up everything. I'm going to start my own record label. So The Noise Company was born and that was in 2010. And we put out an album for me called Go Fly a Kite, which did for an independent release for our first release did really well ended up getting nominated for a grammy for best album art i will say a non-music grammy but hey it's as my publicist said dude we can still say a grammy nominated artist but i'm really proud of that release because i artwork is always actually really important to me the aesthetics and i just love the tactile you know experience of an album and a record and so yeah so we did that we we uh discovered this great band wild child signed them so that was it so now that this is our like real community at this point you know the locals can can you talk a bit about dorian and your relationship with him?

1:08:21Yeah, for sure. Yeah, Dorian was a lot like me, just very musical, super creative. And we joke that like in second grade, he was given, you know, at the end of the school year, every kid gets an award for some different thing. And he got the Friend to All award. And he really was, you know, he wasn't concerned with mundane, just sort of everyday stuff that most people learn like he like you know we'd be having dinner and he'd be like mom this is amazing chicken and she'd be like that's beef and like you know and that was like when he was like you know a teenager you know like he just never learned the difference between like he didn't care if if you were like conservative liberal like what like none of that shit mattered to him you know he was just like he just saw you for you and if he jived with it all good if not all good like you know what i mean he just like did his thing and he was like a true connector i mean it's amazing like the funeral um so many people showed up hundreds of people showed up we met so many kids that would just come up to us and say you know dorian reached out to me and like brought introduced me to these people like he would put people together and just like people have come up to me since and like you know we're friends because of dorian like we never would have known each other or and and all different scenes from like the skaters to the band nerds like cool uncool again like none of you just people you know that's all it was for him he didn't separate it yes we we started you know he started making music like in his bedroom here in dripping springs like when we moved here full time he really started playing guitar a lot more and i I would hear him in his bedroom coming up with original stuff.

1:10:16And I'd go in and we'd talk and be like, dude, that's cool. Then he started learning FL, FL Studio, which is like the competitor, you know, to one of these recording softwares. But it's like a real hip hop. Like a lot of the hip hop producers use FL. And he loved hip hop. And so he started making beats. I mean, he would like, these incredible beats would be coming out of his bedroom. I'd be like, dude, like this stuff is so good. and then the last piece for him as an artist was like his voice like he's started finding his voice and it was such a like sultry sort of his voice tone is a lot of people are like oh god he sounds just like you but really if you listen it's actually a deeper register than me it's a lower voice and it's like very raspy and just sultry is like the word i always think when i think of his singing and he was like dad like i want to put out some of these songs and so we started like he would come over here to the barn and and i would sort of help him mix stuff and he decided he wanted to release his music under his middle name zev z ev which means wolf and so we started dropping songs like as zev you know on on spotify and uh and it was just so cool you know and he was 16 and um it was really interesting like there was this period of time where he just would we would have these conversations uh you know at dinner we'd always have dinner together as a family uh me liz judah and dorian and for a minute there like there was this like two-week period where he was constantly like god guys like mom dad like i just feel so weird like i can't fit it all in like i need like dad we need to be putting out a song like every friday like let's i want to put out a zev song constantly and then i'm of course i'm like trying to explain well like you know spotify really prefers if it's like a four-week ramp up period and then you got to pitch it to editorial like all the bullshit that is driven into our brains you know as professionals and you know he but he's just like no dog like i want to i need to be dropping a song a day you know in his mind and but but just this interesting vibe where he was just like but yes dad like i need to put out music he's like i need to go hang with my friends but like then i feel bad like i want to hang out with you guys you know like and i just can't fit it like there was this weird thing that was happening and then one day liz comes home and she's like god God, everyone who drives a black pickup truck is an asshole.

1:13:00We're kind of like, really? Okay, haha, like what? So she kept seeing these black trucks that were like, I don't know, like running her off the road. She kept having these weird things, these mother instinct vibe things, right? So one night we're sitting around the dinner table, and Dorian, it's like a Monday or Tuesday, it's a school night, And he says, Mom, Dad, I'm going to go over to Dylan's house after dinner and skate. And we're like, okay, well. And Liz kind of gave it to him a little bit. She kind of went into the thing of, well, Dory, you know, you have that test this week at school. You probably haven't studied.

1:13:43Like, you need to study for that. It's a school night. Like, you really need to start thinking about your future. Like you really need to start getting your act together and like get serious about school, you know, and just kind of giving him that talk. And he was so sweet. He was like, yeah, I know you're right, but I'm still going to go to Dylan's and skate. You know, we kind of like chuckled and we're like, OK, you know. And so then he's like, I love you guys. So we have dinner. He leaves. Then Judah, me and Liz were watching some lame show on Netflix. I don't remember what it is because we never watched it since this night.

1:14:22And he always was home by 9. And so it's like 9.30, right? And Liz said, hey, call Dorian. Make sure he's heading home by 9.30. I didn't really want – after the whole conversation we had at the dinner table, I didn't want to be like, dude, good – you know? So I looked on Find My app or whatever to see his iPhone, see where it was. and I saw the blue dot was heading home on McGregor Lane in Dripping Springs. And so I told Liz, I'm like, oh, he's on his way home. I see him. He's good. And she's like, all right, cool. So we keep watching the show. And like 20 minutes later, he's not home. And he would have been like 10 or 15 minutes away from home.

1:15:08So that was a little weird. So I pull up, find my, and the dot's in the same spot that it was when I looked 20 minutes ago. And so I stood up and I'm like, hey, something's not right. I'm going to go check on Dorian, like maybe flat tire or something. You know what I mean? I'm just like anything. And there's like not really good cell phone service over there. We're in the boonies, so I know that road. And so I hop in the car and I just like race down because, you know, it's like every parent's worst nightmare is that thought. You always think this. This is always a thought. It's always a thought.

1:15:51The worst of the worst is what you think. And it never happens, luckily. And so, you know, but I'm having a feeling. So like I'm fucking speeding, racing down. And it was kind of first weird thing was there were no deer on the side. But usually at night out here, you'll see deer on the side of the road. But it was like the seas were parted. It was the only thing I can think of. It was like there were no animals. There was one car that kind of drove towards me that passed me on the road at one point. Headlights. And then I'm just like hammering down. And I make this turn. And I'm going on the straightaway.

1:16:34And I see all the lights. blue red flashing spinning and i'm like oh fuck okay what something's up i race up fire trucks cop cars there's a little red car on the side of the road with a young lady standing there shell-shocked just kind of standing by her car i pull right up to there's cones i jump out of the car. I start running towards the police and everybody. I'm like, where is he? Where is he? He's my son. Where is he? I look to my left. I see the car. The door's been cut off. He's not in the car. So I'm like, oh. And so then a big officer, whoa, whoa, whoa, sir, sir, sir, you're not allowed to be here.

1:17:22This is a, you know, active investigation. I'm like, where is he? He's my son. I'm his father. Like, what is, you know, where is he? And then he was like, sir, you don't want to go over there and I'm like what do you mean like hey I do want to go over there like I'm his dad you know like you don't know me like I appreciate you trying to do your job but like if my like is he dead you know and he said you don't want to go over there that's how he answered me and so I knew so I call Liz you know I'm just like honey you got to get down here and I It's really bad. And she said, what? And it was the worst scream I've ever heard through the phone.

1:18:08Her and Judah get in the car. The other, luckily we had two cars. And her and Judah raced down. And yeah, and Dorian was dead. Car crash. The red car that was there, this young lady, she said she was driving. And Dorian was in front of her. and she saw a big black truck driving towards them and the black truck went into dorian into their lane dorian tried to correct to the right a month prior we had that huge freeze this is 2023 there was a crazy blizzard freeze in texas that kind of made the news you know so there were all these broken branches the weight of the ice would break branches and so the side of the road was littered with these branches okay broken branches dorian swerved to the right and a branch happened to be exactly at his head height pierced through the windshield and hit him in the head and that was it instant didn't feel a thing didn't even probably know what the hell happened um and so the girl in the red car basically saw him swerve but also thought that maybe he just turned into a driveway and then when she went by him she saw now there's like a car in the woods and so she freaked out called 9-1-1 thank god she was there she you know called 9-1-1 they said the black truck might not even know what happened like it could have been just like kind of didn't see what was going like oh kind of swerved and then you know you don't think that like just a little action is going to like kill someone so we don't know who was driving the black truck and like also it's probably good we don't know like i don't you know like that's just it is what it is and um hopefully they don't have any clue that'd be a lot better to live with just not knowing so yeah so that was when my life really changed driving home the three of us instead of the four of us you know, and finally one of the guys let me go see him.

1:20:33I was like, I have to see him. And they apparently, when they got to the scene, they tried to resuscitate him. He was so gone instantly. But they had him in the middle of the road, covered in a blanket. And I lifted the blanket. I saw him and kissed him. And then the judge came, the local Hayes County judge, to pronounce him dead. It's like all the craziest stuff that I find myself saying, like this stuff. It's unbelievable. I mean, everyone's devastated at this scene. I just lost my 16-year-old son. And the judge said, if you need anything 24-7, here's my cell phone. And then, of course, they're like, what are we doing with the body?

1:21:17And I'm like, well, God, I don't even know what we're doing with my parents when they die, let alone my son. so I need to think this through. Now, this is really weird. Rewind four years. We're here. We just bought the property and we're hanging with my mom and dad and we're talking about end of life. We're talking about, okay, mom, dad, where do you want to be buried? The spiritual side of me. And I think the way I am is because I'm an artist and I've lived in chaos my whole life since I was a kid thrown into music. I really crave order and a schedule and a routine and consistency I really crave it you know so conversations like this is kind of I think part of me trying to like know what the hell's happening so having this conversation with my mom and dad like well we got these two plots up in Maryland you know I'm like well that sounds lame like I don't know and I was like why I know like I've heard of family cemeteries out in Texas, on ranches and stuff.

1:22:20And so I started looking into it four years ago. And I'm reading the criteria and I'm like, okay, we check all the points. When you create a cemetery on your property, you have to basically section it off and survey it. It becomes detached from your property and becomes parkland, Texas state. Well, it's private parkland, but it's part of the state of Texas at that point. because like who knows what happens to your property but the cemetery is forever told my parents and liz i'm like dude we could actually do like this family cemetery and they're like really like that's a little morbid i'm like yeah but like it could be a thing like then we'll all know like where we're buried and and the boys loved this by the way like judah and dorian were all about having a cemetery because they were like going to like ghost stories and like you know like just like cool like a boy you know kid stuff and so we actually hiked around the three of us to like try to find our spot and so we seriously found a great spot for our family cemetery okay that was years ago then everyone's like dude kind of give up the cemetery and i'm like you're right it's a little weird so i moved on from that so we're driving home and we're like what the fuck do we do and Liz said well we should call the rabbi and that's when you realize oh yeah like priests and rabbis no matter what you think times like this is when you realize they serve a really good role in this world you know and so we called Rabbi Fulberg who Bar Mitzvah Dorian who's been part of our lives ever since we moved to Austin since he was a little baby so I called Rabbi Fulberg I'm like you're not gonna believe this Dorian's dead car crash and so he introduced me to this funeral director Mitzi who was incredible through the process and so I get on the phone with Mitzi and she's like oh Austin's very populated in cemeteries she's like I'm like this is kind of weird but like have you ever done a family burial like on people's property and she's like oh I did one in West Texas once I said well I know this sounds weird but like I already know I researched this a few years ago and I know that we qualify to do it she's like oh well that takes like months you know to approve for the state to approve something like that she's like but you told me that judge gave you his number and said call him 24-7 he's like if anyone can make something like this happen, it would be that judge.

1:25:01So I was like, okay. So I called the judge of Hayes County, and I said, Judge, it's Mr. Queller, Dorian's dad. I know this is a little strange, but we can do a family cemetery on our property. I never set that up. We want to bury him here on the ranch, can we? He said, oh, he said, dude, that takes months. He's telling me the same thing. He's like, but he said, let me make a call. I'll get back to you. So an hour later, the judge calls me and says, Mr. Queller, your son was so important to this community. The state of Texas is going to green light this. Just get him into the ground and we'll deal with the paperwork later.

1:25:47And that was the first moment where I felt like I could control something. Because when something like this happens and it shatters you so wide open, it's complete chaos. And it shows you how little control we have over anything. And so for me to be able to call a shot, you know, was like just, it was everything in that moment for me. And so then, Jewish custom, you know, you're supposed to get the body in the ground pretty quick, 24 hours. We don't do embalming or anything. and you go in a pine box that just goes back into the earth. Very simple. And so I called Mitzi from the funeral home. I said, and I'm like, well, who digs the grave?

1:26:37And she's like, well, you really just need someone who can dig. She's like, there are specific measurements. She's like, she's rattling off the measure. She's like, it needs to be like seven feet long by this and by this depth, you know, real deep. And I was like, I know who I'm going to call. Bobby Stevens the dude who moved the house here who moved the barn here cut the barn in half by 6pm yeah exactly so I call Bobby Stevens and word it got I mean people knew at this point this was maybe two days later or something and I call Bobby have you ever dug a grave before and he's like can't say I have but I would for you and I just start crying and I'm like oh Bobby I'm like all right dude bring your whatever your backhoe or tractors you know your digger bring it over you know and dude that guy dug the grave so before you leave we'll walk over to that spot I'll show you so now this is sacred land like it already was but it's like it's like such another level for me to be creative here and like and Dorian was just trying to get home.

1:27:49And so we were able to bring him home and he's here so we can go sit with them. You know, we got his picture up over the door. He's always looking down on us. And so, yeah, he's still with me, you know. We'll be back with more from Ben Queller. In today's super competitive business environment, the edge goes to those who push harder, move faster and level up every tool in their arsenal. T-Mobile knows all about that. They're now the best network, according to the experts at Ooclas Speedtest, and they're using that network to launch Supermobile, the first and only business plan to combine intelligent performance, built-in security, and seamless satellite coverage.

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1:30:23Try Claude for free at claude.ai slash brokenrecord and see why the world's best problem solvers choose Claude as their thinking partner. Lexus is a company that believes in the importance of setting a standard, which I can appreciate as someone who holds themselves to lofty if not ridiculous standards, especially with the car I drive. The standard Lexus has set for themselves is to experience amazing. Lexus measures success by the feeling and emotions evoked in a driver, like exhilaration and joy. Amazing can only be achieved by knowing people on a deeper level. The standard of amazing results in a feeling in drivers that their car was built in anticipation of them.

1:31:01Machines that make you feel more human. Because a car that doesn't make you feel something is a car that stops short of amazing. Experience amazing at your Lexus dealer. how did you guys as a family process or not process or continue on? Well, they say God only gives us the things we can handle. And I believe that. It's really funny, like all the cliches. And you find as a father, like, you know, There's so many cliches you hear when you have kids. It's like, oh, someone will tell you. You're having your first baby, and they're like, oh, man, savor every moment. And you're like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:31:48But all the cliches are so true. That's what you realize as you get older, right? Just like priests and rabbis. Yeah. You sometimes live your life not considering them. No, and actually not liking them for whatever reason. You know what I mean? And then you realize there's a moment where you need them. And you realize cliches are like tradition in that way. Cliches are really this just universal thing. And so there's that one, you know, that someone told us, you know, well, God only gives us things we can handle. And maybe that's true. And maybe it was always written, you know, that Dorian was only going to live to be 16.

1:32:29and luckily Liz and I were so strong and our bond with Judah and Judah and Dorian were so close and my mom has a theory that we choose our parents that like, you know, before you're born you get kind of, they're like, hey, you can go to these parents or these parents and you kind of get, your soul gets to decide and so it's kind of this interesting, fun game to kind of think through of like, so Dorian's soul is about to come to earth and they were like, well, so there's this Ben and Liz, you know, the dad's a musician. You always wanted to be a musician, and you weren't able to really do it in your past lives, but this one could be really good for you, Dorian.

1:33:12You're going to have this little brother, Judah, who you're going to really love. But the bummer is you're only going to live to be 16, you know, so it's going to be like a short bang, like, you know, but, dude, you're going to do so much, and you're going to make such a big impact, and that Judah is going to be good. We're making it where Judah is going to be really strong so he'll be able to handle this. Your parents have already been through different tragedies. Your mom lost her mom when she was eight. So I like to kind of game that out. Again, it lets me feel like everything is okay because it was meant to be that way.

1:33:51It's a really beautiful thought. So yeah, how did we handle it? Yeah, we just one step at a time, one breath at a time. As a musician, how did it impact you creatively? So immediately, absolutely zero drive or desire to create anything. That's actually, thinking about cliches, that's actually one cliche that's always been false, at least for me. You know, the one where they say, to make good art, you got to be depressed and fucked up. and I don't even make art if I'm depressed and fucked up. I actually have to be in a good state of mind. So when this all went down, I'm just on the couch. We're just mourning and it's so horrible.

1:34:35And so I think it was only maybe a few months later when song ideas started coming to me. And I wanted that. Music and songwriting has just been the one thing in my life since I was eight years old that's been the constant through everything. And so I was really happy when a melody came to me or a phrase idea or something. I'd walk out to the grave and be like, dude, send me some songs, man. Send me some cool ideas, dude. Let's keep this going. Let's write a song together. And so I started writing. And so that became this new album which is called Cover the Mirrors. And I call it sort of a moody album, but maybe it's not.

1:35:26I'm really bad at talking about my music because I really know nothing. But to me, it's a moody sort of down-tempo album. There are some rockers and there's some up-tempo things, but generally for me it's definitely like a somber feeling. Do the songs directly deal with your loss? Yeah, I think they all do. They all definitely, to me, touch on all the aspects of what I've gone through since losing him. The casual listen, you might not hear every reference being like, oh yeah, that's about he lost his son. But it is, you know, still I have most of the same emotions that I did prior to losing him.

1:36:10It's just this big wound in my heart. That's the difference now. But I'm still like the same guy. And talking to other people that lost children has been a great help for me. And there's one guy that I spoke to, and he told me something really interesting that was, I hate to tell you this, but now you have a superpower. You never wanted it, but you have it now. And what it is is like your normal happiness scale, like happiness is kind of here, up here, and your sadness is like down here. But now your happiness is way up here, but your sadness is way down there. And also your like spectrum band of empathy has just increased.

1:37:03And so it's like this weird, like you've lost everything, but you've also gained this new superpower. That's how he's explaining it to me. It's kind of interesting because I feel that. And so it's kind of been fascinating too, like just in the songwriting process too, and just like lyrics. And I don't know, they hit differently for me, you know, certain ideas and concepts. Well, I mean, the new album is really, it's really beautiful, you know. Thank you. not only just the writing, but there's a depth that sonically and in your voice and in the chords and there's just something to it that's really, just sounds gorgeous.

1:37:46Oh, well, thank you. Would you mind, if you're up for it, playing Breaks? Whoa, Breaks. It's one of my favorite songs from it so far. I mean, you know. I'm so happy you want to hear this one because I've actually never performed it before, So this is the first time to sing this for anybody. This is called Breaks.

1:38:33But time makes it tough It's the breaks it always breaks the heart It's the breaks it always breaks the heart It's the takes it always takes The feeling that awakes The moment that it falls apart Yeah

1:39:03Her words sound sweet on the other end of that line I'm paralyzed by the state I'm in Losing my mind My crazy mind Crazy, hazy mind It's the breaks that always breaks the heart It's the breaks that always breaks the heart It's the takes that always takes The feeling that awakes The moment that it falls apart Yeah

1:39:56Walking hotel hallways like Olympic tracks Shoot after shoot Talking to myself, I stop and stretch my back Just boiling for you Tea for two There's absolutely nothing I can do Cause it's the breaks that always breaks the heart It's the breaks that always breaks the heart It's the takes it always takes The feeling that awakes The moment that it falls apart Yeah

1:40:49Same phone call, what'd you do today? Cool, gotta go How could all those hours give us nothing to say? I'll never know My days move slow Still they give me nothing I can show you But the breaks, it always breaks the heart Yeah, the breaks, it always breaks the heart It's the takes, it always takes The feeling that awakes The moment that it falls apart Yeah

1:41:42I wanna see the world through your eyes again Want my friend standing by Wanna touch your body, wanna kiss your skin Tuck in, nestle my hand on your chest And cry, cry baby cry It's the breaks that always breaks the heart It's the breaks that always breaks the heart It's the takes that always takes The feeling that awakes The moment that it falls apart It's the breaks that always breaks the heart Yeah, the breaks that always breaks the heart It's the aches that make you feel The wounds that wanna heal From way too much time apart Cry, baby, cry Cry, baby, cry Cry, baby, cry Yeah

1:43:08That was really beautiful, man. Thank you for requesting that one. That song, it's like the chorus is already good. It's the breaks always break. I mean, I love them. And I don't even know grammatically if it even makes sense. So I've thought this through, you know, because I got called out on a song once. I was hanging out with some friends, and William H. Macy was there, who I love, this guy, legend. And I played my song Run. And in the chorus of Run, it says, Since I was 15, I have ran everywhere you can run. And Macy was like, I don't know if that's correct. Since I was 15, I have ran. it's I have run everywhere I but but I have ran sounded so much better than run you know what I mean and so now ever since then I'm like really think through my lyrics in a different way as I always think of Macy and so with the breaks that always breaks the heart so I'm calling the song breaks b-r-a-k-e-s like the brakes of a car yeah you know like the stopping of it and then it's those breaks like it's the stops right that then breaks B-R-E-A-K-S so that's where I'm coming at it from that bit is so loaded but then it goes somewhere else so then it becomes even this more rich song because the changes it's the takes that always take it's what you do lyrically but it's a change the feelings that awakes the moment that it falls apart it's so simple but it's there's so but it's so it's like um this like uh cathartic i get into like this meditative state on that song you know and it's um actually it was around the self-titled album i think i was saying how um you know i was like really like zeroing in on my songwriting in a way and kind of i felt like on that album i finally felt like i I found Ben Queller's sound.

1:45:20Like Run was kind of the beginning of that. But there's this song, Penny on the Train Track and 13, where it's like I just went through this moment where I just kept writing verse after verse, but still with like a poppy chorus. Breaks is sort of one of those songs where it's just, it's definitely a story. You're in for the long ride. It's like, okay, buckle up. This is going to take a second. I hope that it keeps the listeners attention I mean that's another thing I never want anything to be I don't enjoy making overly self-indulgent music you know what I mean and I am a firm believer of don't bore us, get to the chorus and if you're gonna say something it better be good and that's sort of a challenge when I'm writing a song like Breaks I want to take you on a journey but every word's gotta mean something then whether it literally means something or the rhyme of it is interesting enough to just keep you listening.

1:46:21It's kind of a fun trick to see how long I can keep your attention. Yeah, so it's a great song. Thank you. I am really flattered that you chose that one for me to play. This one, no, this one was like a very private song. And I even recorded it when no one was here. I just set up two mics, and then we built it on top of that vocal and guitar performance. The strings, that's another thing about Cover the Mirrors as an album that's different for me from my past albums is that there is a lot of strings on this album. I've had songs over the years where it's like maybe an album will have one or two songs that have strings, or you maybe have one ballad with strings.

1:47:05But this one, almost half the album has strings, and it wasn't intentional. I just kept hearing these string parts in my head. Now looking back and when I listen to it, there is like this sort of, dare I say, like a funeral element, memorial vibe that just because of that sound, I don't know, but I love it. I mean, it's really comforting. Also like the lead violinist on all these tracks is a friend of mine in Austin, Warren Hood, the best violinist fiddle player ever. So good. You know, it's interesting. And us who talk about or write about music often boil albums down sometimes for finding an easy way to just reference something.

1:47:50Like that album is this and you just come up with this very. But do you do that with your own albums? Sure. Oh, I for sure do. Yeah. I like think like Shasha is like, OK, that was the opening debut, like a bunch of different types of songs on one. like here I am and I can do like these different things on my way is just like garage rock just right there band in the room press record on the tape machine let it run do three takes pick your favorite and move on Ben Queller when I that's me playing all the instruments that was me really layering and going for a very lush sound and just there's a lot going on in the speakers of that one and then of course changing horses i think of that that's the country album you know yeah but i am figuring i mean this is i guess i'll maybe in a few years think of it as like the dorian album i mean because it is it's the first music i've made since he died so man well um i did want to ask too just you you mentioned 13 a couple of times yeah that's that's ad sheeran's favorite song of yours it is man i it's so sweet ed is obsessed with that song i think also one of the things he really loves about it is like it's like an anti-pop song there's no chorus to that song like it really is just verse verse it was so fun to write that song and that was i finished it in the studio when i was doing the self-titled album so gill was there in the control room I was in the live room I had the opening phrase we've been in the rain we've been on the mountain we've been around the fire and I just kept writing verses and I had like a sheet of paper for each verse and I would shuffle them around on the floor and to create what's verse one what's verse two and I orchestrated the like I knew the first verse and the last one because I knew I was going to end in the taxi when you told me you loved me and that I wasn't alone I knew that was it you gotta have your bookends at least in my mind if I have that I'm good and then so I just orchestrated each verse and what number when they appeared Ed has been a friend now of mine for many years we met funny enough it was like a Thursday I was home, I was here I got a call from my booking agent and she said hey BK hey, are you in Austin tomorrow, Friday?

1:50:25And I said, yeah, I'm around. She said, can you open for Ed Sheeran? And I was like, yeah, I mean, I guess so. Like, what happened, you know? She's like, well, the opening act is stuck in Australia, something with immigration and, like, the passport and isn't going to make the show, so can you fill in? And I was like, sure. So I showed up to the gig. Like, I sound checked. I just played solo acoustic. and I sound checked and his crew's like getting the stage going and there was just one guitar stand and one guitar and I remember asking his crew guys I'm like so where's like all the back line where's the band he's like band what band man he just plays solo and I was like oh no shit like we're in an arena you know and I was like that is so great like I love that because I love performing solo and so many times as an artist you're told like you gotta bring a band on or like Saturday Night Live didn't let Ed play solo on Saturday Night Live because they were like, you got to have a band.

1:51:21So even Ed had to get a band just to do Saturday Night Live. But anyway, so I was like, good for him. So then anyway, we ended up meeting that night. He came up to me after my set and he was like, dude, can you come to Dallas and open tomorrow in Dallas? And I'm like, sure. And so I did Dallas. And then he was like, can you do Oklahoma City? And then eventually he was just like just do the rest of the tour the other guys can't make it and so i ended up doing this whole east coast run with ed back in 2015 and so we became close friends and uh he called me when when him and his wife cherry were getting married and was like mate can you play 13 at our wedding as our first dance i was like i'd be honored you know so we did that and i i it was really fun and I just remember in a haze that night during the party, him stumbling towards me with Harry Styles and their arms around each other.

1:52:23And Ed comes up to me. He's like, this is Ben fucking Quella, Harry. Can you believe that song 13 that he played earlier? And Harry's like, yeah, man. And Ed's like, it doesn't have a fucking chorus. And then Harry's like, yeah, wow, like a song without a chorus. They were just loving that. And I love that. You know what I mean? Because these are two of the biggest pop stars in the world. If you don't have a chorus, you're done. And I think that's one of the reasons. It's obviously a very heartfelt song and is taken straight out of my love life with Liz. And then I think people like Ed and Cherry can relate with that and other people.

1:53:06But from a technical standpoint, I just loved that he loved that it doesn't have a chorus. that's incredible man well hey man thank you for having me out and being so generous with your time and with your music and well thank you for having me on broken record of course honor in the episode description you'll find a link to a playlist to some of our favorite bang queller songs and be sure to check out youtube.com slash broken record podcast to see all of our video interviews too. And be sure to follow us on Instagram at The Broken Record Pod. You can follow us on Twitter at Broken Record. Broken Record is produced and edited by Leah Rose with marketing help from Eric Sandler and Jordan McMillan.

1:53:50Our engineer is Ben Tolliday. Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries. If you love this show and others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content and ad-free listening for$4.99 a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple Podcast subscriptions. And if you like this show, please remember to share, rate, and review us on your podcast app. Our theme music's by Kenny Beats. I'm Justin Richmond.

1:54:23The more you learn about your favorite artists, the more you want to know. Claude helps you keep digging, finding new threads and rabbit holes to explore. Whether it's discovering deeper meaning behind a detail in an interview or figuring out the influence behind an artist's particular era, Claude thinks with you to find the next clue. If you can't get enough of the stories behind your favorite music and artists, Claude will help you discover new layers you didn't know existed. Try Claude for free at claude.ai slash brokenrecord. This is an ad by BetterHelp. We've all had that epic rideshare experience.

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