Camila Cabello

32:02It can happen with myself where I can be like I like that melody. That melody's cool and this lyric is cool and that's a cool song. I like it. And it's easy to just put out things that are just cool. And I've done it. You know what I mean? But it's not a business for them. They really are about craftsmanship and about respecting the craft and the integrity of a project and the integrity of things. And they're real artists. They really are both of them. And yeah, they really I'm I think the thing that I'm the most thankful for for this project is how much I feel like it leveled. It made me set my game up as a writer.

32:39Wow. So you feel more confident as a writer? Oh my God. Yes. Yeah, totally. I just feel like I learned so much. I feel like it was a bootcamp for me. And I think when I listen to, even now because I'm in rehearsals and I'm listening to older songs and whatever, I'm like, I can see, for example, where, oh, this line could have been tweaked or this could have been better on old songs based on what I know now. Because I think before I think I was just following instincts and doing the best with whatever instincts I had at that moment. But now I feel like I have guidelines for what I think is cool.

33:19Can I tell you some of them? Please. I was just thinking out loud. I feel like I became a big fan of just like show don't tell. Show don't tell. How do you think that comes up in the album? Like instead of being like, instead of being like, he's so obsessed with me. It's like fold for me like origami. Oh. Does that make sense? That's a way better line. That is a way better line. But I hope that doesn't sound obnoxious because I have, what I'm saying is I, before I probably would have said things like, said a more, tried to be like, I follow this Instagram account called The Paris Review. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

33:59And I think Greta Gerwig said something like the only way to make something universal is like to make it as specific as possible. Yes. Yes. And it's right. Yes, absolutely. And it's like Taylor has been saying that for such a long time and rappers have been doing that for such a long time where it's like, you know, and Ginchot is like a huge hip hop head. So he would always tell me, you know, I would come in with my perspective of like probably more pop songwriting, which is like beginning of the story, middle of the story, end of the story. And he'd be like, you know, in rap songs, it's like you're in this scene and now you're in the car and now you're in the bar and now you're here.

34:32And now, you know, there's a glass and now there's shoes and the shoes are beige. And now there's like it's like all sensory and colors and painting all of these different pictures where it's like a movie that you can see in your head and like these flash cuts. and I learned so much from that and I learned so much from rappers and hip hop and the way that I saw Jay-Z said something that SZA reposted yesterday, which is like, you know, when people are like, I don't know, like Paul McCartney is one of the greatest writers of all time. I think Biggie Smalls is too. Yeah. You know, where it's like the...

35:11And I think Paul would probably agree with that. Yeah, totally, totally. I don't even think he said Paul McCartney. I think he said somebody else, but I can't remember. But it's like, yeah, just like the, it's like, it's like poetry. And because poetry is so sensory and, and visual. And I don't think I was conscious of that before. I think like, coincidentally, my favorite songs that I've ever done before, like First Man, from a, from a writing perspective, I'm like, I'm so proud of that song. Lola's great too. Thank you. Or used to this that I did with Phineas. There's like, they're very specific and like the calluses on your fingers.

35:44like every time I was like this is one of my favorite songs I did that that's a good point yeah that's a great line too the there's calluses on your finger and then I forget how long ago but now I feel them on my face yeah and I admire them from a distance now they're on my cheeks and I think Phineas and Billie do that a lot too but I think this album I was really like this is what I like this is my shit this is my shit Sally Rooney does it Joan Didion does it and I and I I just yeah I was like this is the show don't tell album I don't want to do these universal statements I want it to be as sensory as possible which is why I think Chanel No.

36:205 is my favorite song that I've written because I feel like it is written from that kind of like rap perspective where it's just like shabari there we go ad libs you know it's like all these different pictures No, so that's why that's like the mission statement of the album for you, Chanel No. 5. Yeah, because I feel like it has, I feel like all of my tastes and all the things I like coming together, which is like this kind of whimsical, alternative, weird thing, and then like hip-hop in one song. Were there other kind of guidelines you kind of wanted? Yeah, I feel like Show Don't Tell was one.

37:01Right. I think the sensory thing was big. There really is a visceralness to the album. And you know what's funny? I hadn't really thought about it, but we always talk about the album and then the visuals. And then we think about them as these... I think because there are visuals, and going back to MTV or whatever, there's always visuals. You can rely on the video to provide the... This is how you should see the song. you know but what is cool about this album is like you're able to see the song before you see any visuals you know there's a visceral i think that i was listening to so much rap and i think that that probably influenced because i love melodies and i love like pop melodies like i love like a i love a melody but i do feel like i love when a rap song comes out and I like go on Genius and have to be like, what is this?

38:01What is this? They just, there's like so many things, like tangible things. Were you like a big hip hop fan growing up or not as much? I was, but I think I leaned into it more for this album because also Ginchot and Jasper were showing me so many more things too. Yeah. And I think when you're making an album with people, You kind of obviously it's like it's you, but you're also in the room with these people like 10 hours a day and you're going to be talking about your favorite songs and wherever there's overlap. You know, like I feel like they're such huge like hip hop and rap lovers. Like I think we kind of like that's what we your level, your love of melody.

38:48Their sort of sense of like really like deep love of knowledge of hip hop. Yes. Kind of blending those two. Exactly. Totally. That's amazing. Totally. talking about your love of hip-hop going on Genius Drake is on two songs on the album but how we feel about this Drake Drake is kind of going through a hard time right now I obviously have huge respect for both of them but I also something that's really important to me and my friendships and as a value is loyalty and also and speaking the truth about people that you know and And I really will talk all day about how generous he was to work with, like throughout this whole process, how much he really is like a true music lover who was like, oh, like, you know, I want to like hear your album and I want to see the video and I want to contribute something.

39:48And I'm so excited about what you're doing and genuinely like, you know, does not need anything from me. but was is I feel like always you know puts other people on so I I DM'd him yeah I was like hey I would love to play you my album he was like I'd love to hear it and um yeah so then we met up and I played him my album and it was a kind of like a little bit more in the rough stages but I played him Chanel number five I played him I love it I played him 20 somethings and he played me um some of for all the dogs wow and I was like I remember having this moment where I was like wow this is crazy because I listened to Drake before I was even famous or whatever.

40:31Famous is a lame word, but you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. You got famous young. I mean, yeah, before you were famous. Yeah. That's your truth. You were famous. We're standing on our truth. That's right. That's right. So anyway, so yeah, then I think it was like a couple weeks later, he sent me this kind of demo, this hot uptown. Wow. And he was like, what do you think about this? I kind of think this could be sick. And I was like, oh my God, I love it. And I went into the studio with Pablo in Miami. And I was like, I am not wasting any time. And I wrote my parts. Like whatever. And then we kind of cut back and forth to make it sound like a duet.

41:15And sent it to him. And he was like, hard in all caps. And I was like... Did it. Did it. Got him. That must have been kind of big for Guinchot, too, like I'd imagine, right? Like that's a... And Jasper is like the biggest Drake. Like we're always like, well, he's the best. How did you connect with Jasper, brother? Because I'm not super familiar with him. But I know... Okay, Jasper is... They're both fucking geniuses. Like they're just insane. and Jasper is really rare to find producers like both of them. And I'm lucky I got two. Yeah. Where it's their taste. It's not even that they're just musically talented and that you'll be talking about an idea and they will pick the best chords, which Jasper does.

42:07But it's also, he sees like a larger vision and he sees, you know, oh, this flow would be so sick and like this person would be so sick on that song. and this texture and whatever. His taste level is just amazing. And he's always putting me onto new music too. He's always talking about McGee. I don't know McGee. That's his latest. So Gwincho was first and then Jasper? Yeah, Gwincho was first. Okay. And yeah, he was actually the first producer that I reached out to for this project. And yeah, and so we did a few songs And then we, I think I worked with maybe a couple more people. And then I was like, no.

42:52Gincho is it. Gincho is it. Well, it's interesting, too, because I feel like Familia was the first time. I mean, you worked with Frank Dukes a lot. Again. But I feel like Ricky Reed on Familia was like the first time you seemed like you really bunkered down with someone. Yeah, it's true. And was like, we're going to do this one-to-one. I mean, there's more people involved on that record. Yes, 100%. I think with Frank, it was like me and him, but I was so, it was my first album. So I was like, oh my God. Like I had, you know, the most imposter syndrome and I was like, well, we must have the best people in town to help, you know.

43:30And I think the second album, it was like that, but a little bit less. And then I think the third album, Familia, I was like, you know, I want to do this with a small group of people. like we can do it and it feels better and I think for me like writing is so you know I'm just like I'm sensitive and I just can't open up if it's like somebody I don't know like I do saw it I had to kick someone out you did you kick someone we won't say who you kick someone out I don't know his name God Blossom but you know like and so like if I can't be like vulnerable and intimate in my writing if it's like my first day meeting you that's why i think i think that is also something i've learned like from now on it's always gonna have to be the same small tiny family for an album because otherwise i just can't open up and there were even some songs here that i would kick you know i would kick pablo and jasper out yeah you know like i like 20 somethings and june gloom i was like i can't write this chorus with you guys in here.

44:35Like, just, aw. Get out. After one last break, we'll be back with more from Camila Cabello. In today's super competitive business environment, the edge goes to those who push harder, move faster, and level up every tool in their arsenal. T-Mobile knows all about that. They're now the best network, according to the experts at an Oocla speed test, and they're using that network to launch Supermobile, the first and only business plan to combine intelligent performance, built-in security, and seamless satellite coverage. With Supermobile, your performance, security, and coverage are supercharged. With a network that adapts in real time, your business stays operating at peak capacity, even in times of high demand.

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47:21The standard Lexus has set for themselves is to experience amazing. Lexus measures success by the feeling and emotions evoked in a driver, like exhilaration and joy. Amazing can only be achieved by knowing people on a deeper level. The standard of amazing results in a feeling in drivers that their car was built in anticipation of them. Machines that make you feel more human. Because a car that doesn't make you feel something is a car that stops short of amazing. Experience amazing at your Lexus dealer. We're back with the rest of my conversation with Camila Cabello. I was talking to Hip Boy I was like you know because he did that run of like he did four or five Nas records like where he was the sole producer and it was interesting like not just I saw that in the documentary did you see that?

48:05in Hip Hop Revolution yeah well and then going back to like Illmatic that first Nas record is the first time that like someone was like I'm gonna work with all these different producers on the album yes and they were like the top producers the top of the time at the time yeah Q-Tip Premiere um uh who else is on that Large Professor whatever whatever whatever but it's it's funny And I feel like that opened up a thing where people work with a bunch of different producers. Like the super camps. Like these big camps. And that sort of become the thing. That gives me anxiety, to be honest with you. Because I actually did that.

48:35I remember from my first album, I was Frank. And then I went into Max Martin's thing. How was that? How was the Max Martin? I mean, to be honest, I was so young. I was like 20. Which, I don't know. Maybe that doesn't seem that young. But for my age at that time, I was like kind of 17 inside. Yeah. You know, because I started at 15. So I was just like, my God. And it was Max Martin. Like, I was like, what the fuck? What am I doing? This is so much. And I, at that time, Max Martin, I'm working with Pharrell. I was like, what is going on? And I just wanted to prove myself to these people. I literally wasn't even thinking, to be honest with you, which is not the way to be.

49:16But I wasn't even thinking about what's going to make the best song, Walking Out of Here. I was just trying to prove that I was good to Pharrell. Well, how do you do that? If you're 20 and you're in a studio with Pharrell, how are you going to be like... I just literally wanted him to think I was good. I didn't even care. Yeah, of course. I didn't even care. I was just like, I just want Pharrell to walk out of here thinking I'm a good writer. Yeah. Period. What can I bring to this, really, as a 20? I could imagine that feeling. So it was just, I think when it's like too many superstar, so many superstar producers, it kind of just makes me anxious.

49:48Like even Ginchot in the beginning, I was so nervous. I felt like I needed to prove myself to him. And I would tell him is the T. And Ricky, too. And Frank, God, I'm so vulnerable with all of them. But that's what you can do when you, you know, hunker down with people. You can be like, I remember, like, I would literally be like, are you comparing me to blank right now? Because I'm crazy and I have way, I need more of a filter. And he would be like, what? Are you kidding? No. What? but then you see them as a human which is where I need to be in order to write I cannot see you as a superstar producer it freaking freaked me out there's just like a cool factor too that I could imagine I mean I've never met him but just like listening to his music you're like that's a guy who knows a lot about a lot he schooled the fuck out of me but I love that I want to be around people who school me constantly because that's the only way that I can get better and I feel like that's what I feel like made this album so creatively fulfilling and rewarding is that I was in fucking school.

50:55I was listening to classic albums that I'd never heard before because I grew up... It was probably heavy on Latin music, right? It was all Latin music. Cuban music. It was Latin music plus Michael Jackson. Universal. Period. And that was pretty much it. So I kind of went back and I was like, oh what is this radio head that people keep talking about you know what it like so i think yeah i just like did a lot of studying on on this album that's cool so do you think all this is going to inform the next thing the next thing yeah moving forward your career your i think so yeah for sure i think i you know i think like ginchot and like i think that i always kind of need to work with people like Ginchot who really know their shit and just hold me to like a higher standard yeah and I think that's like yeah something I really learned is just really putting a lot of love and care into something which I feel like I really did I put a lot of love and care into it and I just love it it's a very cool it's a great album I'm still I still like i love it a lot because it is straight up and it's like i want the the funny thing too is you kicked it off with like the um the strength the weirdest song on the album like you didn't hold it you didn't hold you didn't hold back like you were just like we're announcing the album we're going and it is so um it's like abrasive it's abrasive poppy yeah and i actually hate when Do you think I was right when I called it hyper pop?

52:38Yeah, I don't know. Okay. I don't know what that means. People say it. I don't know. No, because I said it and then it was like, this hyper pop song. And I was like, guys, it's not though. It's so many things at the same time. Yeah. It's a lot of things. It's a lot of things. It's a very cool. It's a visceral record. I mean, the stuff on me that sounds like that no wave stuff, like that late 70s, early 80s New York, like underground club stuff. It's just so, it's such a, I don't know, just oozes like a cool, I think that I love it thing. It is. I also think like that's a, you know, I was telling my choreographer, my choreographers, Calvin and Sarah yesterday, who I've worked with for a long time.

53:18Because we have like, I love it. And we have like Dade County Dreaming. Did you hear Dade County Dreaming? I think it's either the album Enough because I got sent a stream and the link was, but I can't wait to hear it. But like on both of those songs, I feel like I, I, yeah, I feel like mainly most of those songs. Man, Hot Up Town and I don't know. Chanel. But mostly I was. The Lil Nas X cut is really cool, too. I mean, he sounds like really, he sounds amazing. No, he went crazy on his verse. How did that happen? He's really close with Jasper. Okay. And so I think we were always just kind of like in the same family circles.

53:59and Jasper played him my album and he loved it and I think we've always been kind of loving and supportive of each other for the past since we've met like six years ago and I just always loved him I just think he's like such an incredible artist and we were thinking of who to have on that song and Jasper was like oh what about Nas and he had never done a feature before at that time so I was like I don't know if he's going to do it but we asked and we were so excited about the idea of like us both singing about the same guy or fighting over the same guy because it's just like I just never seen that before it's just such a such a funny concept and perfect timing with like challenges having just come out like fighting for the same person it's like that kind of drama of that and he's like yeah I wasn't sure what to expect from it you know like what he would sound like on it and it's a really cool like I don't know it sounds like he's almost in character or something like he well he's playing with new stuff too because he said the other day he was playing with the kind of like like kind of like jamaican like new york like the sounds like the or whatever like yeah he's kind of you know exploring different things in his different pockets too that's so cool but i was gonna say about dade county dreaming and i love it i feel like those were feelings that i always put on other people's music to tap into like this feeling of like bravado or cockiness or like you know like which i feel like rap gives you like this feeling of just like can't fuck with me yeah you know what i mean those songs have that and yeah i'm just like excited that i get to kind of i feel like i've i'm able to embody that now and in my own music i love it i love it um have you had a chance to go to Cuba?

55:49I was born there. But like back? When I was 14. When you were 14 you went back? Yeah I was 14. How was that? I haven't been able to go again just because passport issues and stuff like that. But it was right before I auditioned for X Factor. And my grandparents, no my grandma was still living there at the time. Now she lives in Miami. And I had tons of family there. I still have family there but a lot of people have come to Miami me now thank god yeah honestly what i mostly remember is like i was like obsessed with justin beaver at the time they had no internet yeah yeah and like they only had like the like an email app and like solitaire but they had no internet at all so when the whole world was obsessed with like justin beaver they're like we don't know who that is and i was like no guys just now they know now they for sure know i don't know i haven't been back but um yeah the situation is rough I was there a few years back Oh were you?

56:47What was your experience like? Very strange It was a weird experience because the people are so incredible The people are just precious Some of the greatest people on the planet that I've come across Warm, so warm, so generous, so loving My mommy's Cuban yeah that's who it is right yeah yeah she's yeah there's a warmth man there's just a warmth but um you know then obviously but then you're like also balancing that with like and obviously the country itself is beautiful the yeah the terrain the landscape the landscape's insane but then you're but then you're also acknowledging you're like you know i remember i met a guy there amazing guy so cool and he was like showing us around and so we're like come like come have dinner like let's get you dinner and he was like this is the first time i've had like lobster in 20 years i go that's how you live by the ocean what do you mean he's like well we can't my mom never had lobster until i you know yeah had money now but she never had lot they barely had uh meat or chicken or eggs they had like four eggs a month yeah yeah it's so it's it's just it's a really i don't know i always recommend it for people to go because you just can't it's it's it's you i don't know if that level of uh uh you know it's just so bifurcated it's so weird my thinking on it is so strange where it's like people are beautiful, terrain's beautiful, it's lovely, and the music's incredible.

58:13I've never been to a more musical place in my life. In New Orleans it would be second, which is saying something. Yes, totally. But then you're like, man, these people have like, there's no help. You know, it's kind of tragic. It's very tragic. I know. I wonder, like I feel like music and that warmth and that generosity is also like has evolved out of that pain too and that, you know, hardship. Right, which is another tough, tough thing to stomach. It's like, yeah, all that pain did bring a certain level of beauty out of. Totally. Have you ever seen this documentary, Cuba and the Cameraman? No.

58:48It's on Netflix. It's amazing. It was the first time that I understood because I'd always heard my grandma and my mom talking about, you know, the different phases of the Cuban Revolution. And then what the situation was looking like when my mom left to go to Mexico. but that documentary it's basically it's the same guy shot on one camera 40 years of traveling to cuba i think every 10 years so you see in the beginning everything is amazing and then maybe 20 years later you see him going to the supermarkets and there's nothing on the shelves you see him you know going up to people and he's like can i get a beer can i get some meat they're like we don't we don't have anything you it was just the first time that i was like oh wow I've seen I'm seeing now yeah through visuals and images what my grandma and my mom were lived and we're talking because you didn't understand that by the time you left right when you no no no no I mean I was seven so I I definitely I would you know as a kid you have no stresses and you know your parents my parents I feel like always kind of carried the burdens for me like they never you know what I mean yeah um so yeah I was having a I was having a great time but now i have cousins that like in the past every year i feel like i have new family members that that come because we're trying to get more and more people kind of out yeah um and yeah the things that they say is like it's so crazy yeah yeah why did your dad go to cuba by the way because he's from mexico city my dad is from mexico he only went to cuba after my mom was pregnant with me okay and it was just like to kind of visit family got it yeah all right man it's just such an interesting background that you have the the i don't know i feel very lucky yeah because i just love i just love having access to like my cuban side and my mexican side like the people like the food in miami like i'm i feel so happy that there's actually one song that didn't make the album because it's like not CXOXO, but it was called Broken English that I wrote about my mom.

1:00:54Oh, cool. And there was like this one line that was like empty chairs at like a Christmas dinner table or whatever because that's like how Cuban people always describe like just like immigrant families. And for so long, it was like my holidays were like, you know, just me, my mom and my dad and then my sister was born and just the four of us. And now we're having more and more family come and it feels very healing for me because I get to have cousins around and I get to, I don't know, just like have access to a lot of things about me that were probably just like in me, but I didn't know that, oh, my cousin has that same, I don't know, like habit as me.

1:01:35Yeah, or like she has the same tick as my mom or whatever. It feels very healing for me. That's incredible. Yeah, and I hope you get to go back one day. Me too, but even Miami in that way feels very healing for me because I get to spend time with them. And yeah, it's just like it feels almost like it feels like the new home that we've all had to make because we can't ever like really go back to Cuba or, you know, we wouldn't go back to Cuba or go to Mexico. So it feels like Miami is like, okay, this is like where the new family line is being kind of created. It's amazing. Well, Camila, thank you so much for making the album and for coming to LA and talking to us.

1:02:18I know you'd rather be in Miami, but you're here in my hometown. No, because then I wouldn't have gotten to meet you and you're so lovely. You're really good with people. Thank you. Oh, stop it. No, I really mean it. You have really great energy. Oh, thank you. You have very calming, kind energy. Oh, thank you. I appreciate that. You're welcome. Thanks to Camila Cabello for chatting about the making of her new album, CXOXO. You can hear all of our favorite Camila Cabello tracks on a playlist at brokenrecordpodcast.com. Subscribe to our YouTube channel at youtube.com slash brokenrecordpodcast where you can find all of our new episodes.

1:02:55You can follow us on Twitter at Broken Record. Broken Record is produced and edited by Leah Rose with marketing help from Eric Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer is Ben Toleday. Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries. If you love this show and others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content and ad-free listening for$4.99 a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple Podcast subscriptions. And if you like this show, please remember to share, rate, and review us on your podcast app. Our theme music's by Kenny Beats.

1:03:32I'm Justin Richmond.

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1:05:06Machines that make you feel more human. Because a car that doesn't make you feel something is a car that stops short of amazing. Experience amazing at your Lexus dealer. This is an iHeart Podcast.