Caroline Rose

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1:16Start your master's journey today at apu.apus.edu. You want it? Come get it at APU. Singer-songwriter Caroline Rose has always been a character. Her music videos often feature Caroline as the screwball lead, navigating ambition, desire, and superstardom. Since her 2012 debut, Caroline's music has evolved from an Americana folk sound to incorporating more elements of synth-heavy indie dance and straight-up pop. Now on the verge of releasing her latest album, The Art of Forgetting, Caroline is shedding all of the past pretense and offering up an unflinching look into her inner life in the midst of personal turmoil.

2:01The result is an album packed with clever lyricism and soaring arrangements. Caroline produced the album and collaborated with Nick Sanborn of Sylvan Esso, who helped stack and distort her vocals. On today's episode, Broken Record producer Leah Rose talks to Caroline Rose about why she wanted to set her living room on fire for the sake of her album art. Caroline also shares an early demo of a song she wrote under a starry desert sky and explains how, aside from herself, Caroline's parents are her harshest critics. this is broken record liner notes for the digital age i'm justin richmond here's leah rose with caroline rose so let's talk about the new album yeah where are you sitting with it now you're done with it you're ready to start talking about it hopefully eventually you're going to start touring it how do you feel about it now as like a completed piece of work well you know you're catching me at an interesting time because uh you know I wrote these songs a while ago now and I I wasn't sure what I was even going to do with them I thought that they were just songs that I wrote to kind of help me through this difficult time and then it ended up being pretty clear that it was an album and it's finally coming out which I'm I'm really proud of it as a body of work I think it's by far my strongest material and I'm really proud of that and I think it's really beautiful but there's something else that it's bittersweet I think because it's really difficult for me to have to keep reliving this stuff and I you know now that it's finally coming out I'm like wow did I just shoot myself in the foot putting out this really painful material yeah That's on me, though.

3:55I did this to myself, really. So it's a mixed bag. The album feels very much like it's connected to a situation and a very painful situation. I don't know if it qualifies as a breakup album. But as far as just that situation goes, do you have enough distance from it? Do you feel like you've healed and moved on from whatever spurred this? yeah well you know it was a series of things that all happened at the same time so there was like you know this like handful of one two three four punches all at the same time that I was just like and I think the process of moving on it's not linear like you don't ever reach a place where you're like oh I'm completely moved on from this you know it'll all there will always be tendrils of things that pull you back into something.

4:50And I find myself going in these waves of, right, I'm, oh, I am moved on, you know, I'm in a much better, happier place now. And for a while, I kind of lost my sense of humor. And that doesn't, like, that doesn't feel like the case anymore. But there are moments, I mean, I had one this morning where I was like, just riddled with anxiety and fear. And I'm like, what have I done? I've made a huge mistake. Like, just full of doubt. And then I get thrown back into, you know, the lore of the past of, like, what I could have done differently. And I think it's always going to be this wave of this fascinating back and forth of being like, oh, I'm in a good place.

5:32And then it's like, duh. Yeah. I mean, the fact that you're so honest with this new album, because that's what it feels like. It feels like it's, like, almost like a primal scream. time like it's obviously you processing some sort of trauma whether it was one or many traumas and you like real like we're going through it with you and you know I've as a listener I felt very connected to you and and your pain but I also you know when I think about Caroline Rose like I know you almost like a character is that actually a decision or how did you deal with putting forth with a more honest and open version of yourself.

6:12Yeah, to be honest, it didn't really feel like a choice. It felt more like when I was younger, even a teenager, and I felt really isolated in those times. I was like a young queer kid kind of trying to figure out who I was and where I belonged in the world. And these songs, like it was really similar to that process of just you have to express yourself somehow or else it'll build up and you know bad things happen when you don't express yourself and you have all these feelings it didn't feel like a choice because I had to get it out somehow it's just you know also mind you all of these things were happening in the midst of the most isolating time any of us will probably ever feel in our whole lives during the pandemic and, you know, being forced to kind of stay inside and be alone as much as possible.

7:10So you're just sitting, just marinating your own thoughts. So to be trying to heal from things, which requires looking inward in a very isolating time, you know, that's a lot of loneliness right there. And that's a lot of ripping some big band-aids of like okay well if I'm gonna improve my life and if I'm gonna try and become a better person and improve my mental health and start to love myself I have to go deep and sometimes that's so scary it's still scary you know the characters that you're talking about they're still me yeah and that was something that was probably my bad of uh not making that more clear that anytime I was like kind of putting on an act it was like just a poking fun a version of myself like right but this time there were no crutches because I wasn't really I didn't have any I didn't yeah would the melodies come to you first or would the words come to you first like how was the actual construction of the songs happening it's always different I I don't understand it but you know something's at work something's at work in there because sometimes you know the melody I'll I'll just be noodling on the an instrument the piano or guitar and which is so much fun because you there's no gadgets involved you just sit down press a note and it makes a sound and then you can immediately there's no waiting like you can just make something that sounds interesting and there it is and then the song is made so sometimes it's as simple as that as you just sit down you hear something and then it's like pulling a thread you're like this makes me feel this way and this other chord makes me feel this way and you just pull the thread more and more until it's like oh this is what this is about and it's so cool yeah and other times you know it there'll be a line i'll be like oh this is such a great line you have some great lines on this album Oh, thank you.

9:16The first one that stood out to me just because the sequence of the album was in Miami, where you're talking back and forth with your mom in the song. Your father and I were in the last stage of our lives. So for God's sake, no more talk about you. Imagine dying. You know, you're going through all these like woes and troubles, but then you hear what your mom's going through, what she's facing. And she's like, look, I'm facing death. yeah I mean and that's real talk right there that I feel like if only we all did that when we were having kind of getting sucked into our own little worlds and just thought about the fact that this isn't this doesn't last forever you know yeah everything is impermanent and we all have an expiration date including the good times and and the bad times like they all have an expiration date so I need that reminder and then and at that time when I was writing that song I didn't have a lot of tools to remind myself of that I know it's obvious and now I look back I'm like oh this stuff is so obvious but for people like me at least to get sucked into the the stream of busyness and things thrown at you and expectations and you know ambition right is that an actual conversation you've had with your mom it's almost word for word a real conversation and when I was making this and when it the album kind of started revealing itself as a complete thing I did have this moment where I was like I haven't held back with myself at all I'm not there's no facade here and I'm like if I'm gonna put this out I might as well go for it like go deep and make it as real as possible and I mean man so much of this is real if there's any quotes in there like I don't know if you have the lyric sheets and stuff but sometimes I'll have little converse it'll you'll see quotes where I'm having a conversation with myself and these will be like real things that I'm talking my the voice in my head is saying and you know sometimes the voice in my head is like the most cruel.

11:28Yeah. Once you started to figure out that this might actually be an album, how did you figure out what went where? Man, sequencing is probably my favorite part of the album making process. You can craft the journey that people are going on. And, you know, normally I will put the more upbeat stuff up front and then make it like kind of heavier as you go along or more ethereal or something and sort of the opposite on this one I well first off I knew that love lover friend was going to be the first song I wrote that really quickly just really I don't know it again the magic I don't ask questions but it just kind of wrote itself it was just there and I was like this is it this is the beginning of some sort of journey It just felt like the beginning and it kind of captured the mystery and the longing.

12:25But to me, there's a sort of hope in it. I'll be mixed in with some pain. Yeah, what I thought was interesting about that song, like it's definitely I mean, it is the perfect first song because it makes such an emotional statement and sets the tone for the album. And you start out, it's kind of like making a personal statement. And I feel like you're advocating for yourself. I'm not your lover. I'm not your mother. I'm not your son. and it feels like you're trying to figure out how you want to be treated in an intimate relationship and you have this love on one end in your life that is unconditional that comes from your family and there's all these like really sweet beautiful voicemails sprinkled throughout from I think it's your grandma yeah who's like I love you how are you doing are you eating like these really like beautiful basic questions she just wants to know you're okay and then you you know have the conversation with your mom and you know mention of your family which is just like the strong unconditional love yeah oh man that makes me it makes me like kind of weepy well I should also mention my my grandma like um passed away the other day oh my gosh her voicemails are like all over it.

13:47I'm so sorry. She sounded just like the sweetest. Yeah, she really was. She's like kind of a rock in our family. But even just thinking about my family, we're all so close and going through a hard time and having a family that really cares for one another. It's such a beautiful privilege. I just feel so grateful for my family. and uh i don't know this album you're right it captures a certain moment in time and i don't really consider it a breakup album because that was just like one of the things one of the things during that time but to me it's like it just will always remind me of a time when i was in pieces and myself uh along with my family and my close friends like helped put me back together Yeah, the other line that really stood out to me is on the last song on the album, on Where Do I Go From Here, which is a great last song title.

14:52Everybody wants a seat at the table. I just want to be swaddled and rocked in a cradle. Where did that come from? I think I vacillate between being really ambitious about something where I was like, oh, I could make, you know, why do this when you can make something even bigger and greater and like, it could be like legendary. And then the other side of the spectrum is like, I just want to grow a garden, have my quiet little life and never see another soul again. You know, like I kind of flip flop between the two extremes and I'm trying to like, you know, find a balance between the two. But so often, you know, I feel hold in this direction of this like intense, ambitious kind of like success, you know.

15:40And sometimes I'm just like, I want to crawl back into the womb. 100%. Man. Just thinking about your career and ambition and what you want, like if you, if there was like no barrier to entry, no money issues, anything like, how famous do you want to be? I can tell you right now that I care more about and this is something I like work on with my therapist but ever since I was a little kid I've always had this like I don't know like complex maybe about being respected I really just want to like I want to die knowing I've been I've I've made decent enough art to be considered a true artist that is what I want and I still want it and I you know part of me is just like who cares just quit like just put out this album it's so stressful promoting an album and like pouring it and especially this material is just gonna you're gonna hear me cry a lot this isn't the first time like you know I'm gonna be crying for the next two years talking about this album but it's really a lot and you know like this morning I was just like I think I'm gonna do something else after this like I'm done with music it really depends on what day you catch me on.

16:54I mean, if things are going well, people really appreciate it and are moved by it, then maybe it'll carry me on to do another one. Is there like a marker of recognition, like something that you could finally reach, like whether it's like getting like the Kennedy Center honors, like what's, what would be the ultimate marker that lets you know that like I am a respected artist? That's a really good question because I don't really care about the awards. It's not that. I think it would be if some of my favorite artists heard my music or watched my videos or something and were like, this is good. If Tom Waits was like, I really like this stuff, I'd be like, I'm done.

17:39I checked out. I've checked out. My career is over now because I've succeeded. but yeah I guess that and and sometimes that does happen you know like uh directors or other musicians that I really admire will write me and that means so much that that means so much coming from people whose uh whose art that I also really admire so that gives you like a little like gas in your tank yeah and and but I think it's like that but at the end of the day it's really what people's the fans send me that makes it feel like I actually have some sort of value. Like what I'm doing isn't just for me. It's really to move people and like bring some beauty into the world where there wasn't some before.

18:23People actually like send you things? Oh yeah. My friend just sent me this message. They're a writer and they're talking about how the writing on the album, it felt a lot like there's some writing process where you'll write of draft and then you're kind of taking the razor out and you're sharpening it down so that each line is like razor sharp gets to the point and kind of hits you where it needs to hit you and they were saying that this album really feels like that like you know there's no extra fluff and yeah that really got to me I was like maybe I'm finally getting closer to becoming a real artist

19:09and your parents are artists right that's why i have such a complex it's i i have such fierce critics aside from myself they're my biggest critics especially my dad do you send him your work and then he gives you feedback oh yeah and my dad will tell me how he feels he sent me a legendary email once that i had made a draft in a song because i wasn't i was like you know i'm not totally sure I nailed this one I I just wanted to try like a different technique and so I tried this different style and I sent it to I sent it to him and he wrote back oh great let me just douse myself in gasoline and lighten myself on fire and I'm like wow ouch my dad is very dramatic and also hilarious, but he wasn't a fan.

20:01And so I was like, well, okay. So do you change it at that point? Like, how do you know, like when to go against what your dad, because, you know, a lot of times like dads can be like God in our minds. Like, do you go against God or do you just like, do you listen? Well, the thing is my, my dad's still a dad and he's still, you know, an old white man, but he is a genius artist he's a genius like my dad is one of my favorite living artists what medium does he work in mostly draws but he's one of those freaks that he could do anything he decided all of a sudden to become a become a carpenter and made the most beautiful pieces i mean he could do anything wow very brilliant mind has no idea of the depths of his talent and needs to be constantly reassured.

20:51But he's a true genius. And so when he does tell me something, he'll say like, this is low-hanging fruit or like, this isn't your best material. It doesn't hold a candle to the other stuff. He's usually right. Wow. So I'll rework it and rework it. And it's not like my dad is my main demographic, but I do think that if it's a good song, it kind of permeates demographics. Yeah, that's true. So if my parents are like, I really wish you wouldn't curse so much. I'm like, okay, disregard. But if they say something about the emotional level of the song or something that really, it's a real thought that they're moved by in some way.

21:33Like it doesn't move me enough or there's too many bells and whistles. Sometimes that is a critique of my dad and almost all the time he's right. That's incredible. What about your mom? What does she do? My mom is also an artist. She used to work for NBC doing mechanicals for a really long time. And so she got really good at like layouts and stuff like that. So she does all the layouts for my albums and all my friends' albums. So getting back to the album, tell me about the thought behind the album cover. My friend Monica, Monica Murray, she came to my house and had this special film. home and it took nine shots to get this really beautiful photo of me in my, I have this red chair in my living room and that's where I meditate every day and I read, I have my coffee.

22:27It's like my favorite chair. When I moved into this house, I was in the depths of despair and my mom was like, just make yourself a corner. And so I made this corner with my chair and my plants and the rest of the house was pretty much empty and I just sat in this chair for so long so it was very special to me and she took this brilliant photo of me in this chair and I had this fur coat on and I like no shirt underneath like in my underwear and it just was so beautiful and I was obsessed with this photo and we were both like this is so great we got to do something with this and the more I sat on it and the album was kind of coming together I had this idea I knew the album was going to be called the art of forgetting which is sort of a poetic maybe a more poetic way of saying learning how to let go of things at first it was more of like the art of forgetting to protect yourself like i'm forgetting that's good but i knew it was called the art of forgetting and i sent it to monica i was like we need to you need to make this album cover like with this same photo but with the room on fire and then it became like okay how we're gonna do it it like here's our budget how can we light my living room on fire and it was such a labor of love like my neighbor andy flores is a brilliant artist herself and andy and monica and our builder friend tory came came over and we made a plan to rebuild my living room.

24:06Wow. So we rebuilt the living room and I happen to have a warehouse in the back of my yard that my friends use. And so we borrowed the warehouse, built the set. It was like identical to my actual living room. I was really going to light it on fire and turns out like that's very difficult to do in a city. But why not just Photoshop it? Well, okay. So the thing is I wanted it to be real. I was like, okay, I've gone this far in this album. I'm getting deep. Like this is real for me i want it to all feel real everything and so i was like let's really light it on fire and ultimately the reason why i didn't was it had nothing to do with the cost or how difficult it would be but it had more to do with uh you can't control the lighting what you see is what you get like you can only do it once true if if the lighting isn't right then you've just lit your entire set on fire and that's your album cover and so i asked a bunch of people about this i asked like um the set designer what what he does and all of these people kind of said the same thing they were like you have to recreate the effects of the fire and then you can add the flames on top and then it looks very real and then you've got to you've got to use actual smoke so actually worked really well because we had control over the whole set so why are you blindfolded i find it so funny like smoking a cigarette in a burning room your outcome is not good but you don't want to see it like you don't want to see it and i i like the idea that people can interpret it in their own way you know it can be funny it can be despairing it'd be like suicidal to me it's funny because i also tend to laugh when i'm so despairingly sad it's like you come on you gotta laugh a little bit like this is pathetic and I kind of felt that way I was like this is hilariously pathetic to me fur coat and it's like blazingly hot in there right I don't know I just I'm always looking for you know ways to shake things up a little bit like the athlete with all the cigarettes I know you have such a great sense of humor I love that and I love that that's still intact.

26:23Yeah, I think I like anything that kind of makes people laugh and think at the same time. We're going to take a quick break here and then come back with more from Caroline Rose.

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27:47Terms apply. I firmly believe when it comes to the holidays, you fall into one of two camps. Someone who loves holiday music, or someone who won't admit they love holiday music. There's something about a voice you love singing that familiar opening phrase, maybe it's Donny Hathaway, maybe it's Mariah Carey, that just flips a switch, and you're instantly back into that warm and cozy headspace only the holidays can bring. For me, that feeling pairs perfectly with a cup of Starbucks caramel brulee latte. That's their signature espresso with steamed milk, and a rich caramel brulee flavor topped with whipped cream and a crunchy caramel brulee topping.

28:20It's like the sound of the season, but in drink form. And that's really what this season's about. Little moments of pairing, little moments of connection. Sharing a song, sharing a story, sharing a caramel brulee latte. Because this season and every season, together, is the best place to be. Come together over your holiday favorites at Starbucks. We're back with the rest of Leah Rose's conversation with Caroline Rose. Before we jump back in, let's hear a demo from Caroline's new album, The Art of Forgetting. Here's the demo for her song, Love Song for Myself.

29:00If I am a doormat, then I am Hanover. I am exceptional,

29:21I am a timeless treasure on a hardwood floor If I am a punching bag Then I am here to get you fed You are a heavyweight fighter I am genuine cow leather

30:01If I'm loneliness, then I'm the loneliest If I'm suffering, then I am the morphine If I'm a death sentence Then I too am The relief From all the pain

30:53And if I'm A hurricane Coming to Destroy everything The light you have The return of all things beautiful

31:36Maybe one day You will see All the beauty Within me But until then, let's keep in touch I'll just be here, falling in love

32:33When you sing this song by yourself live, how is it different than what appears on the album? Honestly, it doesn't feel that much different to me. I think there's a little more production value on the album. but I remember when I wrote it I was I was out in the desert and it was just like a I brought this little nylon string and I was just laying on the ground like looking up at the stars it was very idyllic and dramatic and beautiful and it was sort of like the clouds had parted and there's some golden hope for me that I would I was learning how to love myself again like do nice things for myself and I'm like you know what even though I I feel like I have the training wheels on and I don't remember how to totally love myself again I'm gonna just pretend you kind of hear that it's like if I'm a doormat then I'm hand woven I'm an heirloom I'm a treasure on on the floor you know oh that's so nice if you can't be nice yourself you can at least just fake it till make it.

33:40Yeah, well, hopefully it worked. Yeah, it did work. It did work. Talk about your decision to distort your vocals. A lot of the songs, your vocals are distorted a little bit. I was curious, does that change your performance, like how you actually perform the song? And does that ever allow you to say things that you wouldn't say without the distortion? I think a big part of a performance is the vibe of it you know the sonics and the characteristics that make you feel a certain way and pretty early on I made a point that it was important that I can play all of the songs by myself solo even the ones that ended up sounding pretty produced they can all be played stripped down solo and be a complete song and I really liked this idea of if you imagine the solo performance as this little small ball and this little small ball that is fragile and vulnerable and at any moment could break and then these big moments of of magnitude and hi-fi sonics kind of like engulf this little little vulnerable nucleus I kept seeing that come up over and over again because you know when you're feeling so bad you do feel like you could you could combust at any moment like yeah humans also we have the ability to create immeasurably beautiful worlds even from our the depths of our sadness and I felt that even in at the worst moment I was like okay I know I'm definitely toward the bottom of the well right now but I know that's where I am but just the view from the bottom is enough to kind of give me some hope and that really fueled kind of the the textures of the album and I wanted to maintain that vulnerability but also have it feel triumphant and and magnificent and at times really dreamy to kind of emulate that feeling of being able to pull yourself out of despair and recognize your own power even when you're feeling weak.

36:02Totally. Did you come up with all of the arrangements? The only things that I didn't come up with were the string arrangements and those were done by my friend Tallcat and Sammy Weisberg. The strings on Jill Cesar's gorgeous. They're beautiful. They did such a great job and they sent me like the rough of it and then I was like oh what if it, you know, what if it swells here and does this and you move this section here? And then it was like the next draft was done. Pretty much as simple as that. They really nailed it. How did that song come together and how did you come up with the idea for the arrangement?

36:39On Jill Says? Jill Says, yeah. Well, Jill's my therapist. I love that. Yeah. And I had been noodling on the on the uh the piano at my my parents house when i i visited and i think i had been listening to a lot of classical music a lot of like debussy and satie i really love all the french minimalist kind of composers and i i think i was just practicing and that the arpeggio that kind of is like three or four octave arpeggio it sounded so beautiful i was just like wow I can't believe I can play this because I've never really thought of myself as a piano player but I think those early early years of piano lessons have somehow they've never left my hands very cool yeah I was like impressed with myself I'm like dang I didn't know I could play as well but I really liked this sort of floral feel to it it was floral and it reminded me of the beautiful times in this relationship that had ended.

37:47And, and I, it was like, you know, a relationship can end and it doesn't all have to be bad. Like you can honor it. Even if you don't have a relationship with that person, you can, you can still honor your time together. And that's what it felt like to me. It was like, you know, a complicated time and, but it was a beautiful time. And so I, I liked this idea that it was almost like a little movie soundtrack. It feels very cinematic. Yeah, it is cinematic. I do think when you put strings on something, it automatically sounds cinematic. But even if the strings weren't there, I think this would be cinematic sounding.

38:22How do you feel about, in a way, when you write a song, it's almost like as an artist, if this is your job, in a way you're commodifying your feelings. How does that feel for you? this is a tough question for me because i am realizing more and more that if i want to make my best work i have to put that out of my mind completely and that includes not even involving anyone to do with business or thinking in a business manner cannot be involved and that's something I actually learned on superstar which I I made um some choices that looking back on it I'm like would I have done that again knowing what I know now probably not the only regrets I've ever had in my career have been when I've made a business choice over a creative one hands down every single time that's been the the issue and I did I made a point of not doing that this time and I really think that the music benefits from that so when it's made I am selling a product And my whole team, I have a whole team that helps me sell a product and, you know, essentially selling myself too.