Charlie Puth

25:15and I think it was called Full of It, and the melody...

25:29And I remember I played it for a teacher in class, and he was like, I'm really surprised. That was very nice. So maybe that was an inkling of a first good song that I wrote. But when I wrote that, I was like, Ah, that's... How did that melody specific? Because it seems like it's that melody that really... Well, I always played a sample with that melody. And then we replayed it on the piano. Because it's so funny. I remind myself, that's the only time that happens in the song. This little iconic intro. You don't hear it again after that. I didn't even realize that until you just said it. And after I took the chords, there's some things I can't explain.

26:22It's just from God. It just fell down. It's been a long day without you, my friend. And I'll tell you all about it when I see you again. And we all just looked at each other. Me, Andrew Seder, and DJ Frankie. And we had just met each other. They were working on a Flowrider record right before that. But I think it was like, I have it in my notes saved. I just saw a picture of it on my phone from 3 o 'clock in the morning. I just wrote the lyrics down in my notes. Wow. It's a, that was a, if that never, if that moment never happens again, I'm totally fine. Because that was like an act of God. It really was.

26:57It's cool that you honor that song as much as you. Because, you know, some people get kind of tired of the, you know, the hit that they have to play and live with forever. But it's like. No, never. Never. Certain songs, yes. but I mean, I just, I grow, I used to hate on my song Marvin Gaye. I'm like, I don't like that song. It's corny. And then I listen to the production. It's kind of fun. It's like, it's kitschy. It's of a time period. It reminds me of going to LA for the first time. But See You Again and One Call Away, I just, I'm very happy to play those songs for the rest of my life. And that's, by the way, very churchy.

27:34I know.

27:42on the live version i do

27:49it's it's it's almost that you hear that melody and you're like i feel like i've heard that song before it's like that song was written millions of years ago and i just found like a little portal and just pulled the star down and just brought it back and also just the fact that like your point to your point that that only happens once in the intro that um the little

28:12it's a hook in itself and it's such a strong hook that in your mind you think it occurs more than one way more like a few times in the song that's it it was kind of made modeled after a church song

28:34Every great song, if you take away the drums, take away all the background vocals, take away the organs, the horns, I was listening to a lot of Jadakiss at the time. You take all of that away, and if you can just...

28:59It works. Wonderful. Gospel music, big. like big or small is just i don't know man it's gospel music played a huge role into simon and garfunkel too and like you listen to and it makes sense when you listen to bridge over troubled water

29:25that's that's a gospel chord progression that's all any anytime a little flare of that isn't pop music i believe it makes the pop music better that was layer necktel that thing that did the piano on bridge of trouble water he would have been i don't know for sure i think you're you're correct i hope people fact check me but i think it is and you know he would have grown up absolutely i can't remember who paul simon was listening to but he said he was listening to someone specifically. I think the Dixie Hummingbirds. Nah. Not the Dixie Hummingbirds. Something like that. I'm not going to the Dixie Hummingbirds.

30:00Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's a... Gospel music's just amazing. Remember, what was that? The movie with Lauryn Hill singing Joyful, Joyful... Sister Act 2. Sister Act 2. Like, people... That video has 36 million plays on YouTube. People have a deep appreciation for all of those chords. Like... there's something that that that every anybody could be affected by that they don't they didn't have to grow up in the south or no whatever they just it's just about the note values we even think about 30 i mean you had boys to men on your album voice notes yeah boys to men third uh i mean to the map about 30 years ago roughly yeah as big as you could possibly be and absolutely there's like that in their music and in their and in their hits yeah and all of And all through the influence of all their collaborators, too.

30:55And I was talking to Jimmy Jam about this once when I was like, you know the coldest thing you ever did, Jimmy Jam? And he was like, what? And I was like, on bended knee, when it started.

31:08That's the intro, and then the chorus goes to the one. Can we go back to the days our love was strong? Can you... Can somebody tell me how to get things by the way they used to be? There's Jesus. You're the Santa. Like it's all in its DNA is gospel music. Yeah. And it's my quest to find everyone's influence where it first started. So when you're listening to the radio, is that how you're listening? Yeah. And it can be, I mean, it's jazz, gospel. R &B. You could listen to Digging On You by TLC. Came out in 1994 off Crazy Sexy Cool, Babyface and L.A. Reed.

32:12That's like you could Bill Evans jazz pianist would play.

32:22Embellished like that, that's jazz to me. What was the second chord on D major? I would have warmed up my voice had I known I was singing, but you get the feeling.

32:53And baby face, like, uh, Tevin Campbell. The bridge on that is very gospel, in my opinion. Oh, my poor voice. It's beautiful.

33:22It's what you would hear in a church. Yes. I believe that the best music, it can be the poppiest of pop music. If it's great, there's a little bit of gospel or jazz hiding in there. Do you feel like gospel found its way mostly out of pop music in the last decade, decade and a half? I think so. Like you hear, especially in the 90s, and there was so much iconic cinematography attached to soundtracks in the 90s. The Bodyguard, you listen to I Am Every Woman, like Whitney Houston. I'm every woman.

34:04I'm every woman. And of course that was done before in the prior arrangement, but it was brought into... The Shaka one, right? The Shaka one, but it was brought to the next level, even more so. And introduced to an entirely new generation at that time. And they have a gospel choir on that song. Diane Warren would write songs and David Foster would produce them. There would be gospel choirs in the background. You listen to a Britney Spears record. You listen to Lucky by Britney Spears. There's a gospel choir, not super prominent, but it's tucked in there. Maybe a better example is... When you want it the most, there's no easy way else.

34:42Celine Dion, they do a whole... When you want it the most, there's no easy, easy way. It's like there's a choir in the background tucked under Celine, but you're just listening to Celine. They're supporting her. You said the bodyguard, wait and exhale. Everyone falls in love sometimes. Sometimes it's wrong and sometimes it's right.

35:12I messed it up. There comes a form when we exhale. Yeah, yeah. Say shoo.

35:29All you gotta do is say.

35:36You know the bridge on that?

35:50Forgive me, I don't know the words.

35:56Sometimes you laugh Sometimes you cry That's why for the Super Bowl I had the gospel choir on the field. I had all the orchestra elements because I just... And that's why it's all over my album too. I'm obsessed with those chords. Like a C major is nice, but when you add a little... What'd you add? A little... I think it's a nine. B-D-D-D. little clusters see that's the only part where I fall off I don't really know the names of these chords I just C major 7 something

36:38a little clustered does it well so when you sit down to play if you're just at home and you set the piano calls you for some reason is that typically the stuff you're playing it depends as of recently yes. Do you enjoy playing classical? I do, but not as much as I like just freestyling. I like Nocturne in C-sharp minor by Chopin.

37:07Just because of how all the notes fall.

37:15And I like... It's the temperament of the piece.

37:28You know what I mean? I don't know what any of this is called.

37:35You know, et cetera, et cetera. Right. There are people who can play it 10 times better than me, but it's just the feeling that I get. Nothing makes me feel better than being in front of this. Wow. It seems to me clear that you do a lot of listening. And thinking. and talking to myself. I love listening to music. I love music so much. Do you ever hear a song and feel like, I want to do... Do you ever hear a song, sit down, start playing it, and then spin it and do something of your own? Yeah. That becomes complicated because you never want to take something because then it's not your song. But, I mean, I haven't done that recently because on this album it was all about...

38:18it was kind of and i had to really force myself blood pop helped me like get there i had to really force myself to put the life experience first hey you should write a song about your dad no melody in mind what would the lyrics be and then the next day let's figure out what the music is going to be i was very uncomfortable with that but i like being uncomfortable because that's how i get comfortable and that was blood pop's influence on absolutely this album yeah and i It took a year to allow myself to get there, which is why I've been kind of gone a little bit. I haven't put out an album in three years.

38:53One last break, and we're back with Charlie Puth. This is Malcolm Gladwell from Broken Record. Sunday is built on a deceptively simple premise. A healthier yard starts beneath the surface. By analyzing your soil and using climate data, Sunday creates a custom yard plan powered by nutrient-dense ingredients instead of traditional synthetic treatments. It's a shift away from guesswork and towards understanding, which historically tends to produce better outcomes. Go to GetSunday.com to get your free custom yard analysis. That website again is GetSunday.com. Small businesses are the pulse of every community.

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41:29Eye problems can occur. Tell your doctor if you have new or worsening eye problems. You should not receive a live vaccine when treated with EBCLIS. Before starting EBCLIS, tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection. Ask your doctor about EBCLIS and visit ebglis.lily.com or call 1-800-LILY-RX or 1-800-545-5979. I was thinking about, I might get the title wrong, but it's basic. It's in essence, it's never meet your heroes. Yeah, don't meet your heroes. Perfect.

42:02Six, eight time. Big orchestra, 19 people in that orchestra we recorded at Conway.

42:11Yeah, that's a great example. That came about from a conversation I was having with Blood about the time I met someone who I really looked up to and was so excited to drive up to their house. And then I met them and it was like maybe they were having a bad day. I don't know what it was, but it was just the vibe was terrible. and it didn't like it kind of ruined it for me because someone i've like you know just admired in all sorts of ways it's just like it wasn't ruined in i just i i just like it felt like growing up in like 20 minutes i'm like oh okay it's not all the world's not all perfect having your illusions shattered a bit yeah don't meet your heroes it's they're not as they seem i just should have kept them on my tv screen kind of yeah it wasn't that's a little bit of a fudgy lie I wasn't watching TV, but.

43:01Well, and then there's another great line that's more. A fudgy lie. There's another line that's something like, you don't meet your heroes unless you know who you are. Yeah, don't meet your heroes without knowing yourself. Without knowing yourself. Yeah. Dramatic. The reason why I said that is because I think if I had met this person later in my 30s, it wouldn't have affected me so viscerally. I'd be like, oh, that's okay. You probably, there's, you have your life and I have my life. I'm not keen to everything that's going on. I'm not hip to everything that's going on in your life. It's, it's okay.

43:37We'll, we'll, we'll put a pin in this. But being 23 and being in LA and having access suddenly and all these people want to come meet you and then you meet them and they're, some are amazing. And then some are just like kind of a letdown. Who were some of the amazing people? Cause I know you've got, I mean, you've, there's people you've really looked up to that you've gotten to know and it seems like it's been really positive i think when when bruce springsteen called me after i had sang his song somewhere and a 732 number popped up i don't want to blow up his spot but i have a 732 number jersey baby jersey yeah that's right and i think when billy joel called me personally asked if i'd open up for him this is a long time ago getting to play beat yourself up for max martin meeting knowing max for for 10 years and not really we've never like officially like worked together but just just having that relationship of like even if two months go by like i can call him and he can give me advice like he he's giving me great advice about like what i maybe could explore musically what is he compelled you to explore he called me once and and said do you know what i miss and i said well what's that he's like the emotion in some of these these records sometimes i i liked it when like like i really felt like i could feel what you were singing about and i i couldn't even hear the lyrics like it and i was it was something i'm paraphrasing it was something to that extent and then i ended up starting this album based on that based on that there is some of that going on in this album because even Cry there's a moment and I know you have perfect pitch and I actually want to ask you about that I don't know how that impacts how you feel about your own performance sometimes but on that song Cry there's a moment in the opening few lyrics your voice sounds very imbued with something I knew I was and that was the first time I had sung that lyric I didn't re-sing that I knew that I was writing about my dad like a message to my dad because I had already seen him experienced the loss of his mother who lived 94 years old a wonderful beautiful life but i never had written a song for him and these chords even sounded like dad this is for you like that's what those chords sound like to me without any lyrics written so the emotion was uh it was in the box right away and you didn't redo the top of that song no i added layers but i didn't redo the lead vocal it's really stunning because it is like it it stands out it you know it stands out as something it feels you can it feels like a moment you know that you're listening to that's that's what i was hoping for having perfect pitch i've always been curious because i have a baby right now you can how old is your baby five months old oh congrats that's amazing and so sometimes i'm up middle of the night just doing like ear training next to her because i've read that you can teach babies to have perfect pitch so i was like i'm gonna i'm gonna like i'm gonna you know I'm going to see what I can do here, you know?

46:37Yeah, you don't have to force it, though. I think the best thing you can do is just play music a lot. Because their minds are sponges. Right. Having perfect pitches, there are amazing musicians who don't even know how to read music or play instruments, and they make the best music ever. It's just kind of a nice thing to have. Is it ever an impediment, though? Like, can you listen to, like, a Thelonious Monk song and be like, or is it just, like, painful? I mean, you saw me. I mean, this piano isn't perfectly tuned, and you saw me wince at it, but I got over myself, so now I'm used to it. Because I already have OCD, diagnosed OCD, and I really care about the details, the minute details about everything.

47:17And I feel like the perfect pitch may make me want to make things a little too perfect sometimes. So it's great to have collaborators who either have it and are cognizant of not making it too perfect or don't have it at all. or might not even play an instrument or like no just make it simple like that's why i love collaboration for that reason are you able to hear songs like um like you know dylan or like the lonie's monk like you're able to hear the beauty in those songs even though they might not be i'm asking you to say like no i don't think bob dylan's songs are great but no but there's like is it and i was i so funny you're i was just talking about this with another artist just right before this too and i i will watch all the talent competitions and i'll hear there are so many better singers than me and i can hear them sing the phone book perfectly hit every run crisp and perfect but i'm not getting any emotion out of it i'm not going to be interested in it ultimately i'd i'd rather hear dylan i don't know a whole lot of bob dylan songs but i if if i did i'd rather hear him sing off pitch and sing it with conviction so i can really feel what he's singing about i'm not i'm not really looking for him to you know mariah carey is a good example of somebody who can sing around the you know the sun but has some restraint for the rest of us who can't do that makes that's why she has had so much success that she's able to make music that's kind of universal for everybody you think she pulls it back i think she pulls it back and then there are moments when she needs to hit the whistle tone like on dream lover she can she can do it but she's not starting the record off with it she's that's why whitney was great too whitney there will probably never be another singer like whitney in our lifetime she grew up in newark the first new jersey native to sing the national anthem at the super bowl and i was the second No pressure, man.

49:14No pressure. I wasn't as good of a singer as her, but she was able to, it's just like this fine line. She was so proficient vocally, but made it so palatable for people who can't even sing. Everybody can feel, everyone feels like how to sing when they listen to Whitney. It's interesting you bring up Whitney because the first two tracks on your album, which I think are the first two singles. Yeah, Changes and Beat Yourself Up. they kind of remind me of like yeah whitney a bit like like you know in terms of like they just go a lot of places yeah you know like the way bright keys yes um a lot of movement a lot of movement a lot of packed with instrumentation but not not too much not too much not too busy you know it's like it's like it's the album is constantly other than a couple songs like beat yourself up is like constantly if it went here too much yeah and it did go here and i had to pull it back when i was mixing it with manny but like it hits here and then well it's like i want to dance with somebody could like absolutely very easily you know spill over into too much but it's it's but it's perfect yeah i mean there's i think there's a way to nudge at your influences without completely taking the art it's you're you're able to listen to rick astley never going to give you up and you're able to listen to i want to dance with somebody but it's just about like a feeling that those songs gave you and you want that feeling capture that feeling yeah yeah i want to go back to the national anthem yeah we have a mutual friend in um in eric vitro yeah that's my guy eric's amazing dude amazing dude such a like i've never seen him frown the nice the greatest the best the one of the most do you study with him or he's just he's he's he's given me a lesson before and he's like offered to keep going and i just and i felt like you know like i don't want to i just i don't want to waste his time that's the kind of that's the kind of person he is he doesn't think it's a waste of time he's is so in love with teaching and he's been doing it for such a long time that like he just he doesn't he'll work with a-list stars and people who are just starting out i know and he's lovely like that but i'm like i just you know i'm like i just i don't want to impose on him but did you work with him with an on the national anthem i did work with him i warmed up with him right beforehand and oddly i wasn't nervous before going on i like wasn't nervous just putting the arrangement together in my head, I always kind of knew what it was going to be.

51:39I always knew it was going to be in D major. But it's kind of like writing a song. It's like you have the finished product in your head, and then you reverse engineer it. What is warming up before an event like that like? What are you doing? Yo, yo, yo, and brrrr.

52:01Just your voice is a muscle. so your vocal chords are a muscle rather. It's like you're just warming them up. National Anthem's hard to sing too. It's insane. Like the range of it is... Oh, I'm insane. You're going octave jump. Like, you know, there's somewhere over the rainbow I know who I want to take me home. It's all the octave jumps, but that's an octave jump plus a fifth. That's ridiculous. What's your favorite song on the new album? My favorite song on the album seems to change every day. I love changes so much. I love I Used to Be Cringe because I hated it when I first wrote it. But because it's kind of the first time where I've made something that is a little, almost like borderline comedic.

52:51It's like, why would you put that against such... Like kind of James Taylor. maybe like simon and garfunkel sounding it made me think of um her majesty at the end of uh abbey road like the way just pops in because it's it's not as short as that but it's like it's a feels like a really great postscript yeah i thought it was the i appreciate that that's a i i i thought it was a perfect way to end the album because the whole album is filled with moments of me reflecting on past decisions of how i used to act and growing up as a young man in the ever-changing music industry being influenced by things it's uh i i thought it was a nice period mark at the end of the album yeah who played that was my friend curtis from philadelphia he's a wonderful guitar player he played um that at three o 'clock in the morning and i got so sick the next day thank god we got that guitar down because i was so spent i was so tired it was a the second half of the album is a little um feels a little heavier than the first half yeah not like in about but it just feels a little more weighty by design because i didn't want to come out right yeah all the kids being like oh unks in his emo error or whatever they say i i want i i wanted to start with the fun stuff and the album in my opinion is like how a concert should be laid out you start with the fun stuff and then in the middle it gets like a little melancholic and heavy and then surprise here's another fun one it's not as fun as the first one but it's like it's it's there and then encore is a song that you wouldn't expect i'd play or something yeah it's perfectly sequenced and um it's like a really quick listen too like it doesn't it just go yeah it goes by really quick.

54:47I want you to be able to replay it, replay value. There's a lot of replay value on it. And I just, there are, I don't, on Don't Meet Your Heroes I had a solo on there where I was really, like all that. Yeah, what was the, the,

55:11probably the jazziest thing on the, on this album.

55:18And then,

55:23Don't meet your heroes, they're not as they... I mean, jazz is all over the album, but I think that's the jazziest one. Well, then there's a... You scat along to a guitar solo. Oh, yeah, on Hey Brother. Damn, he's not even using notes right now. It's impressive. That's Curtis playing the guitar, too. That's a great solo.

55:56I've always wanted to, I mean, I'll get better at that as the years go on, but I always wanted to answer your question from way before, probably from an hour ago. I've always known that jazz was a part of my DNA when making pop music. It feels like a great synthesis of pop and jazz. and gospel in a way. There's choirs all, I'm washed up, we have a choir. I think Cry, there's a choir. Changes, there's a choir. Beat Yourself Up, no choir. The Raven Lene, am I saying her name right? Yeah, Raven Lene. She's a new one too, for me. My kids love her though. She had a massive hit this year. She did. She did.

56:35And she sounds amazing on your album. Yeah. And I love that song. It's almost like a... Well, New Jersey, but it sounds like it was produced in South Central. Like, my love of the... One of my favorite songs is the intro record on the chronic with the solo tip. And Snoop Dogg just talking an immense amount of shit. Crazy shit. Crazy shit. The craziest shit ever.

57:08Like, those don't... That whole album is feeling based. nothing about that is diatonic yeah that's like that's c minor and a flat minor though that should clash why does it feel good it just does yeah it's it's all feeling based how do we start talking about that oh yeah new jersey is kind of a west coast sonic anthem but about the state i'm from which is new jersey the chronic was like the first album i remember being like enveloped by like as not even by choice, but just as a kid. And so, you know, I'm from LA. So I love that album. I'm very proud of it. What was it like when that dropped? What was a big deal?

57:48Well, I didn't know life before. I mean, because I was so young, but it was, I thought it was the way everything always was. Like I thought, like, you know, Are you my age? I'm 34. I'm 36. Okay. Just 36. So you were kind of the same. Roughly the same. Three when that came out. And, you know, you turn on the TV and it'd be like the promo of like the um gin and juice video oh my god pouring out the fucking oh my god it's so amazing you know i wasn't there's no way i was supposed to be seeing that but you look and you're like life is remember having the feeling of like i'm in for a ride like this life is but you know that was a moment in time there was that you know the source awards in 1995 and snoot when doggy style came out i mean you have to imagine me a kid going to catholic school listening to doggy style my actually my first snoop dog album was uh paid the cost to be the boss and i heard the uh the neptunes production from the church to the palace yeah man very cool chad hugo like why does those monsters that was the e minor that that's not supposed to work but it just worked because it was just the neptunes feeling it and then snoop sounds sinister on it it's like damn boo what you gonna do cuz with them baby blue like i didn't I didn't even know what the Crypt Walk was.

59:03I was in school listening to that. You're not supposed to know Charlie. Oh, I was so enamored. It was the early days of YouTube, and I was looking up all the videos. I think Drop It Like It's Hot was the first music video I watched on the internet. Wow. It was Pharrell blurring out the ice creams that he was like. That's right. I want people to be excited about music again because I feel like they're not. I feel like there's so much. You and I love music, but I feel like everybody feels that music is disposable because you can go on Amazon and listen to it. You can go on Spotify. Spotify, yeah.

59:39You can go on Apple. It's just I used to have to order CDs. If I wanted the chocolate starfish and hot dog flavored water, I had to put an order in. It sold a million copies first week off Interscope when Jimmy was there. The marketing was amazing. Crazy. I had to put an order in for Crazy Sexy Cool. They didn't have it at Jack's Music Shop in Redneck, New Jersey. I would stay in the record store and listen to the CDs I had. But it wasn't just me. It was like, oh, you have the mix CD? You have My Name Is off the Slim Shady LP? Let me borrow that. You kind of had to jump through some hoops to get to music.

1:00:17Absolutely. You don't even have to illegally download anymore. There's no need for bit torrents or anything. There's no LimeWire. anyway you just can if you want to hear a song you can find it even limewire was a bit of an impediment to like there was a you had to go through some hoopla and then it would be the wrong thing i had riddled my parents computer with viruses and and but it was worth it because i got to hear goodies by ciara these kids today like they like i shouldn't i shouldn't say that there's not an appreciation of music i let's i retract my statement there is an appreciation of music it's just changed there's just kind of fervor the way like i know what you mean i i think kids like to our earlier point i think kids appreciate a wider array of music no older music you know there's they really have in a way but there's not like um the excitement from a because the distribution is so easy now like the excitement like even just like trl was like oh my god exciting thing like having a backstreet boys you know all the fans line up for christina aguilera You had to rush home from school to see it.

1:01:19And if you didn't rush home, you missed it. And it was it. You'd be like, how do I see that? Explain that concept to Gen Alpha. What do you mean I have to rush home to watch something? If I want to watch something, I'll watch it whenever I want. That's fine. I'm not going to be unk and be like, oh, the good old days. I've had success in these new days. I'm very happy about that. I just want to make a body of work that makes people somewhat feel what I felt when I first heard, ooh, on the TLC tip. and x y and z i i just i i want that feeling to never die well i think you captured a really great feeling on this thanks and like the melodies like that there's so there's melodies for days and just the last thing i want to say about it just just because you have you here yeah is when i was listening to it like there are melodies that i feel like it recycled through pop music and i don't hear any of those on here like it sounds it's just like everything sounds appropriate to the song organic everything sounds new it's inspiring i appreciate that probably because i don't really listen to a whole lot of pop music i'm not going to be the cool artist and be like i don't listen to any pop music i am cognizant of pop music i i i know olivia dean i know all sabrina songs i she's great i mean for a pop i mean the fact that she's like a or levy like you know that some of these people are like pop artists now you're like it's that It does speak to some of the savvy of the music listening public at this point.

1:02:41I appreciate you saying that. It's very nice of you. It was amazing. It was great to meet you, man. Very nice to meet you, too. I feel like I've known you for my whole life. Weird. Very nice to... It's good to know you. Good to know you, too. And this is a really... Wow, what a dump this is here, right? Yeah, well, we'll get this... Get this up tuned. We'll get this going. Can we... We just talked for more than a minute.

1:03:07In the episode description, you'll find a link to a playlist featuring our favorite songs from Charlie Puth. Be sure to check out youtube.com slash brokenrecordpodcast to see all of our video interviews. And be sure to follow us on Instagram at thebrokenrecordpod. Broken Record is produced and edited by Leah Rose with marketing help from Eric Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer is Ben Talliday. Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries. If you love this show and others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content and ad-free listening for$4.99 a month.

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