Chicago

28:33I want to take you back just a little bit further. Before you met, what, and I'll start with you, Lee, what were, how did music come into your life? We were playing with different bands. But even before that, you're... I played with a band called Ross and Majestics and the Shannon Show Band. And we played the Irish clubs in Chicago. We played like R &B, well, not R &B, country and Western songs, Irish dances and all kinds of stuff, you know. And was your family musical? Is that how you? My father was a trumpet player. Oh, is that right? Okay. Yeah. He was a band leader and he never actually left the States.

29:15He was a chief warrant officer in the Army Air Force when it was combined at the time. And he'd have all these players come through and then go to the front lines. Right. Did he play with a lot of military bands? I think he had stopped playing by that time. He was just the band leader. And these cats would come through and then he would let them go AWOL on the weekend.

29:44so anyway sorry no absolutely of course I'm the crybaby of the band by the way sentimental Irishman that's right well if you can't be sentimental about your father I don't see what you can't absolutely he was good to them then they'd go over and fight the war and hopefully come back but they were some of the greatest players out of the big bands you know, Tommy Dorsey and Jimmy Dorsey and Glenn Miller, all those bands. When they got drafted, they'd come through his band. Is that right? Mm-hmm. Did he have stories about them? He didn't like to tell the stories. He wanted to get away from it when he came home.

30:24Oh, okay. Yeah. And did you play in school? Did you do school bands? I played in school. I started in grade school. Yeah. 11 years old. Wow. And that was back when, in grade school, they walked you into a big room full of brass and said, Pick an instrument. Yep. There was a lot of that in schools. Well, he had played the trumpet, so that was the first choice. Yeah. And they just checked my teeth to make sure I wasn't going to harm myself. My lips were going to be a bloody mess by the time I got done. And it seemed to work out, so I've never stopped since. And then you went to college for music.

31:02Yes, DePaul University. That's where we met. And were your parents happy about that? Yeah, they weren't too happy when I decided to do this for a living. They were trying to talk me out of doing it. And because, you know, how many people make it? I was one of the lucky ones. We were a couple of the lucky ones. When did they finally accept that you'd made it? I'm not exactly sure, but when they started coming to shows and going, that's pretty good. Any day now? I mean, like when you mentioned, does anybody know what time it is? That was sort of a crossover from the big bands to modern rock and roll.

31:38And then what were your, were you influenced by big bands growing up? Oh, yeah. Yeah, because my dad had all those records. I used to attempt to play along with them. You guys aren't unique. They're Blood, Sweat, and Tears. Other bands would have bigger horn. James Brown, I think, had a trombone. But not a lot of bands had your sound. Sly and the Family Stone had a trumpet. Well, the brass was always a background instrument in all the other bands. We were a lead voice. We became a lead voice. And our approach is melodic. Yeah. Whereas a typical horn section is harmonic and frosting on the cake.

32:20And more percussive. We are a lead voice. We are a melodic horn section that interplays in and around what the lead vocal is doing. so it becomes intrinsic in the song. If you take the brass out, there's empty spaces. Were there models for that that you listened to? No, I just arranged what I heard. I wanted the section to be a lead voice, and that wasn't just bop, bop, bop, bop, bop, not shots. Yeah. Do-do-do-da, ba-ba-da-da, ba-da-do-da-da-da, you are my... Seamless. Right. And that's kind of the approach we do because if you take it away, you know, there's something missing. Maybe subconsciously it was job security.

33:09I don't know. But, you know, we just felt it out. Interesting that you say job security because there are people now who, for whatever reasons, they have decided that they are not going to listen to what is popular. And then 20 years later, they're grown up and they decide to listen to Chicago Transit Authority for the first time and then give a reaction, reaction videos. And they inevitably ask if the horn players are part of the band, you know, thinking that it's too big. Or are they even real horns? Yeah. Well, I mean, they had to have been real horns because there was no electronic instruments to be able to play them back then.

33:56You know, and again, there was no comparative. We invented this. This approach became our signature. It does remind me at times a little bit of, he didn't have a vocalist, but like the Mingus band sometimes. Were you guys influenced at all by? Oh, absolutely. I was a jazz guy, you know, and I brought that to the table. And Lee was in his bands. I had my own quintet. It was modeled after the Crusaders, if you will, Cannonball Adderley. We were doing jazz covers, you know, milestones, jive samba, and our repertoire kind of evolved into jazz rock, funk. I started, you know, experimenting with more contemporary motifs.

34:49So when I became part of our thing, I started there, and then now away, I have a vocal group to work with. I have a rhythm section that is rock and roll to work with. I mean, Terry Kath blew me away. I mean, you know, he was brilliant. And Terry couldn't read music. So he helped me help him and vice versa. I sat with him for hours because introduction, which is the first cut on Chicago Transit Authority, is an incredibly intricate piece. I mean, there's every time signature and key change. I mean, Terry was going for the throat, but he didn't know how to put it on paper. He heard it, but he couldn't write it.

35:39He couldn't read it. It was like Brian Wilson. Yeah. Same image. Yeah, so I had to sit with him, and, okay, this is a B minor. This is an F-sharp major. This is a flatted fifth. I had to create a chord chart. Only then could I arrange the song for the brass because I needed a roadmap. And Terry, in sitting with me, learned eventually how to read charts. And I learned how to embrace rock and roll because I had been a jazz guy. So working with Terry opened my brain up to, you know, guitar, man, you know, rock and roll. This is awesome. I can put horns with this. This is cool. So do you remember meeting Terry for the first time?

36:29Yeah. Walt asked him to come over to school, to DePaul, to talk about their gig or some shit. I don't remember. But yeah, he and Danny came to DePaul, and I met Terry at DePaul. What was your first impression? He was wild. He was wild. He had this kind of kangaroo jacket and long blonde hair. And he was a big guy, big, sturdy Norwegian. And he was gruff, you know. And there is something, you know, very caveman about Terry K. And, you know, I was immediately taken aback by it. You know, it was like, oh, this guy is very interesting. and I heard him play I was like holy shit and he was playing bass he was playing bass I think it was before we were in Walt's basement that I heard him playing guitar somewhere I don't know maybe he was just horsing around it might have been at the apartment he used to sit between custom speakers those were his headphones

37:45and man but then when we first got together at Walt's Parents, I really heard Terry. My jaw dropped. I mean, this guy was like, God, the feel, his feel. I mean, he felt it in every inch of his body. And, you know, you couldn't help but be captured by that. But he's also a great rhythm player, too. Great rhythm player, great soloist. He played rhythm and lead at the same time. And sing a lead vocal. Sing the vocal. Yeah, he did it all. He did it all. I've never seen or heard anybody who can do that. And what was your impression of Robert when you met him? Do you remember meeting him for the first time?

38:30I think Walt actually met Robert first. He went to a club where, was it Bobby Charles? Bobby Charles and the Wanderers. The Wanderers, yes. It was at Sub Dive on the South Side. and Robert was playing acoustic piano and Walt asked him if he played B3 organ because we didn't have a bass player and Walt was interested to save money man maybe we could find an organ player that could play the bass pedals on the organ and we wouldn't have to pay a bass player and Robert said oh yeah man I play organ he had never done it in his life He immediately went out and bought a used M3 organ and started woodshedding at home.

39:21So when we got together, he could at least... I think we did that for about six months or so before we... Before we met Peter. And then you hired Peter. Do you remember meeting... Was he like a hire, like you went looking for a bass player? He was in the process of leaving the exceptions that were like the drinking crowd. They were a top 40 band. Everybody played 45 minutes, 15 off. They would take their 15 minutes off and go backstage and learn another song, another hit song, and then come out and try it on the next set. It's like, how the hell did they get? But they would sound exactly like the record.

40:06It was amazing. Yeah, and they had two amazing vocalists, Jimmy Vincent and Peter, and they were like the thing. You know, they appeared on local TV, and they were probably one of the most popular club acts in the Midwest at that time. At that time, we were beginning to get fired from these clubs because we started discovering our own voice, particularly Robert Lamb who started bringing original material into the band and we'd start trying those songs out at clubs and no sooner did we do that the club owners would come to us and say hey you play that stuff you're out of here I want top 40 that's what my customers want come to hear and so we either had to stick to the top 40 or get fired and we started getting fired Mm-hmm.

41:04Just sort of set a pattern for the rest of your career. Not only that, we set a pattern for the type of stuff that we were doing and the way we were feeling about life and some of the illegal things that we were doing on our 15-minute breaks as opposed to having a drink with the boys. We were going out and yelling and smoking a joint instead. You weren't learning a new song. But we were taking that drinking audience. We weren't learning a new song. And we would take that drinking audience away to come and listen to us. And that's what became interesting for Cetera to come and hear us. Well, here's the deal, man.

41:42No sooner did we start getting fired from these typical nightclubs, a club opened on Rush Street called Barnaby's that actually encouraged new stuff. You know, it was, wow, okay, this is what we've been looking for. and we got a gig at Barnaby's and we could do, they loved it. We could do our thing. We were doing expanded arrangements of hit songs. There was a group called Vanilla Fudge that inspired that as well. They do extended versions with alternate chord changes. So we started doing that And then that evolved into completely original material, which we were able to do at Barnaby's. One engagement at Barnaby's, we were an opening act for the Exceptions.

42:40Peter Cetera and the Exceptions were the headliner. And he heard us doing these Beatle covers. He was a huge Beatles fan. He heard us doing Magical Mystery Tour and Got to Get You in My Land. And it blew him away. And next thing you know, he was in the band. And then how soon after that did you leave for Los Angeles? All of it started in February of 68. 67. 67, I'm sorry. And in June of 68, we headed to California. So a year and a half. And you also, did you tour with Janis Joplin? Do I have that right? Well, yes. We met her at the Fillmore West. and we also we opened for Jimi Hendrix we were at the Whiskey Go-Go and Sunset Strip we were opening for Albert King and we were in the dressing room waiting to go back on and there was a knock on the door and we opened the door and Hendrix is standing there and we're going whoa is that Jimi Hendrix and you knew his stuff oh yeah he was on top of the world We were playing like Jimi Hendrix before we heard Jimi Hendrix.

43:54Yeah, we were, in fact, we were doing his cover. We were in Fox and Lady and Purple Hedge in our set. And Hendrix heard him. And before we went back, I said, he came to the dressing room. He said, you guys have a guitar player that's better than me and a horn section that sounds like one set of lungs. Do you guys want to go on the road? Fuck yeah. And next thing you know, we opened for his summer tour. We were the opening act, and he got it. Unfortunately for him, it was at the end of his career and the end of Janice's, but it was our foot in the door to the business. We never took our foot out of the door.

44:31What was he like to tour with? He was very introspective, very shy, quiet. And it was funny because, you know, we'd travel together. Terry was nervous around him, and he was nervous around Terry. You know, he didn't know how to approach each other. Eventually, they got comfortable, and they started trading ideas. Terry would love to have played with him. He would have joined Jimi Hendrix Band in a flash and left us. See you guys. I got something to do here. Well, there was actually some chatter amongst us about maybe doing a project together with him, with Jimi. And, of course, he left us too early, and then Terry left us too early.

45:17he also and maybe it was Walt who told the story that he was telling you how he felt tremendous pressure to have another hit and that he was finding it very hard probably that sort of goes along with the business itself it's always what have you done lately you just don't think that would apply to Jimi Hendrix it applies to everyone who's ever picked up an instrument I forget which artist it was. I think Joni Mitchell, You're Only As Good As Your Last Hit. How quickly they forget. Almost instantly. That's another reason that this journey of ours is such a phenomenon, because these songs broke that mold.

46:06These songs have become timeless. These songs, we are along for the ride. We're just blessed with this ride that this music has given us. You think it's the songs, those songs? Oh, my gosh, yes. Oh, definitely the songs. Oh, my gosh, yes. I mean, these songs, and we hear it every night, these songs have become fabrics of lives, soundtracks. These people, they're singing louder in the band. It's like it's a communion. Little did we know. I mean, we are so blessed to have this phenomenon occur that never would have occurred to us. But now the music business, as opposed to the fans, you found out at some point you didn't have publishing.

46:50Wasn't that right? You didn't have publishing rights? No, Gershiel took the publishing rights. So, I mean, I'd prefer not to talk about him anymore. Okay, yeah. He? Enough already. So he discovered us. Thank you. Yeah, yeah. But then Columbia dropped you after you made them just a gigantic stack of money. Well, we made them a stack of money, but at the time they dropped us, we were managed by a guy that made a deal that they couldn't refuse. And Walter Yutnikoff, rest in peace, agreed to the deal. And they realized after they went back to New York that they had just screwed themselves because they offered us way more than they thought we were worth.

47:40And they were never going to come up and fulfill their end. So they let us go, and they released everything they had over and over, repackaged, repackaged, with no artwork to recoup. And started saying that we were done. We weren't done. So Irving Azoff picked us up and put us on Full Moon Records. Not a bad guy to pick you up. Another historical thing. Just going back to that first album, how long after you'd been in L.A. did you record your Chicago Transit Authority album? Six months. We got to L.A. in June of 68, and we were in New York in January of 69, beginning the recording of Chicago Transit Authority.

48:22Now, it was your first record deal. Columbia was a little nervous, but you insisted on a double album. I'm fascinated by that. Well, we, as a band, realized that these cuts were longer cuts. If we had done, and Garcia completely agreed and supported our vision here, we couldn't have captured full picture this music with one disc. And he tried to convince Clive Davis of that. And Clive said, you know, our budget doesn't allow that for a new artist. And of course, it was the right decision. And the next two albums were also double albums because Columbia realized that it was necessary. One last break and we'll be back with Lee Lachnane and Jimmy Panko.

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52:15My introduction to you was from my brother, David, who was a trumpet player. and he brought home the Carnegie Hall record. Now, I know you don't like the sound of the Carnegie Hall. That was the fourth album. That was the fourth album, yeah. But that was the best they could do at the time and I didn't realize that until 50 years later when I did it. Yeah, Lee did a remaster that is brilliant. Really? Yeah, he and an engineer took it into his studio and gave it the digital... Ten months later, we had it done. But we had to take away all of the noise and electronic sounds and everything just to get down to the instruments.

52:58And then we edited that to get as much of the sound of Carnegie Hall out of it. So we would delete everything up to the whatever horn or voice it was and then fade into that note. let the note play, finish, and then fade out of it. And we did that for each instrument. Every drum, well, actually the drums were easier because you can put gates on those. But also to build up the sound of the drums, Tim Jessup, the engineer, put together a drum sound, probably like 10 tracks of drums. But anyway. Yeah, he built a whole... He built a drum sound. So by the time we finished, we were able to move the music forward as though you were sitting in the audience.

53:57And for me, being the arranger, it was a blessing because my beef with Carnegie Hall, and again, it was lack of technology. It's what we had. Oh, yeah. And the horns, I couldn't listen. The horns sounded like kazoos. It wasn't our sound. It wasn't our big sound. And Lee brought that back. But now most people, Carnegie Hall is considered at the greatest acoustics, at least in the world. What was the issue? Just the way it was mic'd? No, no, no. It was rock and roll. Carnegie Hall is built for acoustic music. That's the difference. And if you put an amplifier, it's just, you can probably still hear some of the notes now if you go towards the building.

54:42I hear Chicago from 1971. That's right. Oh, my God. That was, like, 1971? Yeah. It's still, when I sit in my chair, I squeeze a little of the sound out. But tell me about, it's such an amazing piece of music, the ballet. It's got seven parts. Make Me Smile, I think, has at least two key changes in it. And I'm not going to talk about Make Me Smile because, and I will encourage people listening to go to YouTube to, you know, Rick Beato? Oh, yeah. Yeah, which is great. Did a wonderful breakdown of that song. He's amazing, by the way. He's got the stent. Yeah, no. I try to catch all his breakdowns.

55:26He does a lot of... He's done great ones, but I think yours is one of the best. He's an amazing musicologist. Yeah, yeah, he really is. And he does a fabulous breakdown of Make Me Smile, and you can hear all the parts, and it's just a blast. But then there's so much to say, anxiety's moments, And then there's the West Virginia Fantasies, which features you, Lee, on trumpet. Beautiful, beautiful trumpet line. I never learned any of those names. Okay, okay. You know the part where you're playing the beautiful trumpet part? Yes. That's what it's called. I love that. I mean, I complimented on him the other night because I had a clip for a performance.

56:13And when we're on stage gigging, I can't hear a lot of the nuances because there's so much going on in my ears. And I heard that piece very clearly. And I went, Lee, your tone on that thing is so nice. Because I had never heard it on stage. Practice, practice, practice. Yeah. And then there's the beautiful counterpart where Walter would come in. Was that all written out? Was any of this? Every note. All written out. Every note. Every note was written out. When I wrote the ballet, I just approached it as a multi-movement piece. He was still writing it when we were recording in New York. Chicago, too.

56:48Did you have a classical piece of music you had in mind as a model? No, not necessarily. But I wanted to create, as a peon perhaps to the great classic composers, hey, why can't we do this in rock and roll? So I just wrote an extended piece, and one movement evolved into another, into another, but I didn't have anything titled in movements. That was Garcia's idea. He said, Jimmy, let's title each one of those departures, each one of those segues, so we have actual titles on these movements, and we wind up with almost a mini-symphony kind of approach. Well, also the business, the studios and record companies were allowing unlimited copyrights at that time.

57:47And within a few years after that, they cut it down to just 10 copyrights on a record. And that completely changed writers and the record business because they didn't want to share. Once you had 10 songs on a record, you wrote the 11th song, the writers would have to start sharing their royalties. They didn't want to be doing that. So it completely changed their writing. And I could get nastier, but I'm not going to. I'm a Christian. Hey, more titles, more publishing. Well, that's where I was leading. But so anyway, greed changes everything. Yeah. So we were just playing music and writing music, and that's what we love still to this day.

58:33I had been listening to Bach. I am totally a fan of Johann Bach. I mean, arguably the most perfect voicer in the history of music. I mean, his voicing and his intervals were perfect. He was the template in music theory. Bach was a perfectionist, but Bach also cooked. Bach grooved. So here's this perfectionist that had an amazing feel as well. And I was listening to the Brandenburg Concertos. I got absorbed in, how did he do this? How did he do this? It totally drew me in. Well, that inspired me to sit at a piano and start fooling around with arpeggios. a la Bach. And Color My World was directly inspired by the Brandenburg Concerto.

59:34It's a 12-bar turnaround of major sevens and minor sevens. It's a round. And I put a vocal over it and then a flutso over it. It's just amazing. But the changes in it are very, very interesting. It's not diatonic. They're all relative. There's a note in each major 7 chord that sets up the next major 7 or minor 7 chord. So you're always using common notes to create the... Yeah.

1:00:14I only change the F to an A to make it an A minor 7. From an F major to an A minor. So they're relative. All the chords are relative, but they flow. They flow beautifully. So it's not diatonic. It's not. No. But it has that, you use the common tones to keep it going. Exactly. Well, the whole thing is just amazing. Thank you. But Lee, it took you a little longer to become a writer. Yeah. And these guys were already writers. I came in with Call on me. You want to listen to my song? So I had my little cassette put it in. Had you presented a lot of songs before Call on Me? No, this was my first song that I presented.

1:00:59I have to say, though, you came out with a bang. Came out with a bang, and Sotero decided to sing it and became a hit. It did come out. Still a hit today. It's going to be on this 50th anniversary album, so it's pretty cool. As it should be. And it was on Chicago 7 and then The Greatest Hits, which we initially thought was going to be our last album. Because once you do a Greatest Hits, historically, most bands are history after that. And did you think that was, was that around the time that Terry died? Terry died shortly after that, but it was something that was going on, so it did enter our heads.

1:01:42But we just kept playing music. We just kept playing our shows. So there wasn't a point you thought, ah, it's been a 10-year run. No, because we kept working. We were interested in playing music for audiences. We loved playing for live audiences and still do today. But even after Terry died, was there a moment you felt like, we can't do this? He was such a huge force. Not a matter of can't, but he was the leader at the time. And we had to decide that we are still together. he would want us to keep going so let's do that I'm only halfway through my questions and we're out of time so you're going to come back at some point we're going to keep going there won't be 60 more years though right get us before we're planting you'll be talking to if my brain's in a jar that's what you'll be talking to it's been a huge honor thank you so much what an honor In the episode description, you'll find a link to our favorite Chicago tracks, as well as the 50th anniversary re-release of Chicago 9's Chicago's Greatest Hits.

1:02:53Be sure to check out youtube.com slash brokenrecordpodcast to see all of our video interviews. And be sure to follow us on Instagram at The Broken Record Pod. You can follow us on Twitter at Broken Record. Broken Record is produced and edited by Leah Rose with marketing help from Eric Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer is Ben Talladay. Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries. If you love this show and others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content and ad-free listening for$4.99 a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple Podcast subscriptions.

1:03:27And if you like this show, please remember to share, rate, and review us on your podcast app. Our theme music is by Kenny Beats. I'm Justin Richman.

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