Corinne Bailey Rae

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2:11Cards issued by JPMorgan Chase Bank and a member FDIC. Subject to credit approval, terms apply. Corinne Bailey Ray independently released one of my favorite albums of 2023, Black Rainbows. We had a chat over Zoom at the end of the year about the place that inspired the album, the Stony Island Arts Bank in Chicago. And then when she came to LA around Grammy time, we decided to meet up and continue our conversation. Not only about the new album and what it meant to find her own artistic voice again, but also to discuss Reflections, Refractions at the Stony Island Arts Bank. A beautiful book Corinne's put together cataloging the items that inspired her new music and her creative awakening.

2:54The conversation takes us from Corinne recording her third album, The Heart Speaks and Whispers, a capital in Hollywood, to finding a spiritual home in Chicago, to discovering a mid-century New York subway pageant that led to one of my favorite songs on her new album, the raucous New York Transit Queen. This is Broken Record, liner notes for the digital age. I'm Justin Richman. Here's my conversation with Corinne Bailey-Rae. have you recorded here much in LA? Yes I have I did my third album at Capital so I loved being there I mean that was amazing we came for seven weeks and we ended up staying for seven months I mean not all in Studio A because it would have you know bankrupted us How much did you spend on this?

3:40It was a lot but it was worth it because it was James Gadsden who's such a brilliant drummer and it was just nice to be able to be in that space anything you played in there you just play at G on acoustic guitar I think yeah let's write us song with just g yeah so everything sounded good yeah i really liked it i'd like to go again when i was a bit more together because we didn't quite know what we're doing i'd like to go when it was like we know what the songs are let's work on the arrangements you know rehearse and then you can just be ready to go yeah little leave a little room because i mean i imagine there's some inspiration in that building it's a little room for just the actual sound you know the space and then the echo chamber yeah yeah it's really good and we went into the echo chamber and it still smells of paint from when it was painted maybe that can't be good can it or yeah i guess that's probably a lead paint or something but where the air didn't go anywhere you know just like you just close the door so yeah amazing place yeah i've only been there a few times but it's so um yeah i just i still you know i've lived here my whole life but every time i pass that building it's so iconic isn't it that building and i always worry about now nowadays too i worry about it when i pass it like i feel some sort of like i hope i you know i doubt they're gonna take it down but i hope Yeah, and then like, do Universal still own it or is it owned by someone else?

4:51And when I was working there, there was a big fuss because they were making big condos nearby, but it was disturbing all the underground stuff. And that's where the echo chambers are. So they were like, what's it going to do to our acoustics? But I think it's probably fine. How's it been in town? It's so weird. I forgot it was Grammy weekend until yesterday. I mean, it's fun. I just won this award at the Resonator Awards, which is for women who produce and engineer. it's that organization called move the needle i don't know if you've heard of it but it's set up by emily lazar and so the main thing they've done is sort of analyze music so they made this analysis of everything that came out last year and of all the songs that came out last year and all the records there was only six just over six percent that either had a woman producer or engineer so they're just looking at how they can kind of bring equity to these organizations including including mentorships for young women and it's mostly coming out of school and you know being the person who trains with a mix engineer because that's the seat you really want to be in right that's how you kind of get the that's how you get the experience just you can learn all you want at college but when you're actually working on records every single day and sitting in rooms and working with artists that's when you really become a master so i think they set up quite a few internships and there's camps and then there were loads of big writers there like linda perry was there cool she's really good and she's really honest and then alanis morissette was winning an award as a kind of trailblazer award i mean she's such a big writer her record jagged little pill is the second biggest selling record of all time is that true which i didn't think it's like thriller then jagged little pill whoa yeah so when it was 80 85 million i mean that record was i do remember that record and obviously all over the world 85 million 85 million thriller like below just below thriller yeah i was thinking is it a beatles record or but yeah it's thriller oh my yeah i guess it's like it's also with how which charts you're looking at and all that sort of stuff but yeah that's a massive but then they were just highlighting all these different engineers and producers that i'd never heard of that were doing big things they're all sort of grammy nominated this year and this woman who's kind of jack antonoff's right hand woman who does everything with him you know yeah exactly yeah she's the mix engineer and he's he just won't work with anyone else and amazing would you ever produce like would you ever work in that capacity like help another artist i mean i just don't feel myself to be prolific enough to kind of be a producer for other people but obviously i love producing my own music i mean maybe in the future i could do that in the sense that like you don't think i just feel like it's not like oh i've got 10 records out and then i've got you know two spare months to produce someone else i feel like i'm always just trying to like get it right for myself got it got it i did get asked recently to work with someone and you know maybe at a different point in my career yeah i could do it or if i saw someone who thought oh they're really brilliant and they you know they need a bit of help with the direction and they were up for it i think it's hard sometimes an artist producer i've worked with artist producers before where they have a really strong opinion of how it should be yeah whereas i feel like the best producers like we could do it like this or this or this or this I've got all the different angles, whereas I won't have loads of ideas.

8:05It's just with my own music. I just think it has to be this, you know, direction. You know, it's funny. I re-listened again to like every record, like in chronological. Every record is different. Yeah. Yeah. So you at least got four different, you know, like, you know, tricks. Yeah. No, I do really love it. I just think it takes, it takes me a long time, you know, it's like this hair and the tortoise, isn't it? Do you feel like you're always like writing? I feel like I'm always in phases. So I think with this record, I'm still very much in the phase of tell the stories, communicate the stories.

8:40It feels much bigger than me. It's really different from talking about your own life compared to talking about these stories and this place. And I feel like I'm in the business of connecting people. You know, I spoke to a radio presenter who's just over at Tavis Smiley's radio station. But I remember specifically the interview, what we talked about. you know he we talked about aretha franklin's amazing grace that amazing grace right he brought it for you didn't he he was like do you know about this record and i said yes i love that record and we got to talk about that you know i remember sort of this what's sacred what's spiritual how people come out of the church and they're kind of punished for it to a certain extent or you know you're really on your own but how can you ever separate music from spirituality and all those that's blowing my mind because that's actually the conversation i i completely forgot about it so You said, that's how I discovered that record.

9:29Really? Was from that conversation. Really? You guys talking about it. I was like, oh, wow. So he was, yeah, that works then, right? He was recommending it to me, but whoever was watching it, yeah, that's such a good album. And it's just a community choir who were excellent. Insanely good. Yeah. But, you know, they just live nearby and they go to that church. Yeah. You know, it's not the all-star gospel choir of, you know, it's just local people. Speaking of like spiritual homes, I got to look through the book. it's wild how chicago became this kind of spiritual home it almost seems like it's a second home for you the way you you're talking about it chicago just became and still is for me it's kind of the center of the world for black stuff for me you know in terms of thinking about the huge migration that happened after the civil war and after abolition where did the majority of people from the south want to go the enslaved people obviously a lot of people stayed in the south and really identify with those states and being in the land and being farmers and being close to nature but so many people wanted to go to chicago you know the big city so many people came and so you think of all those the mixture of all those different cultures i mean i sort of think it's all those different africans that have lived in america for generations and all the cultures of the various states and even the cultures of the various plantations you know right impacting and to what extent people were allowed freedom to move around because of course some enslaved people were hired out you know in different jobs they drove the masses around you know dave the potter who made pots for people around around the plantation delivered them and so just what that was like and then coming to chicago and then what they brought with them their traditions their culture their food but yeah Chicago I mean I feel like I knew of Chicago as a you know being a British person a European person as like the mob the mafia the windy city you know the musical Chicago I didn't think of it as being this center of black thought and space you know I certainly wouldn't have thought oh Ebony magazine was Chicago and then was it yeah did not know yeah so the headquarters of ebony magazine were in chicago and john johnson had this building that he bought and sort of decked it out you know he became a really wealthy man the whole family were wealthy because they had jet and ebony negro digest and they would send them all over the world so he would go to all these fancy places and all these banks and they would have all this european art on the walls and he thought when i get my own place i want it to be contemporary black artists and african pieces so when you see photographs of that that building the johnson publishing building every floor had its own character there was like swirly carpets that had commissioned the furniture was specially made there was the glass ashtrays and the art on the wall and the dogon statues and the marlian statues it was like being in an art installation and the photos it also looked like something from 2001 a space odyssey yeah you know just really like futuristic 60s yeah they really heavily documented it and it also was a center for black chicago so when muhammad ali was in town he would go to the johnson building or when you know shaka khan or whoever was passing through those people were always the building was always fizzing with these entertainers so i really liked the idea of that and then just to know the library from that building had gone to the arts bank wow you know and that that's what the library was it'd been people who had sent their books to try and hope that ebony would review it hope that magazine would review it so i just couldn't believe the amount of literature in this library it was a new another look at chicago for me how much time have you spent there now i spent loads of time though because we you know obviously i went on that first visit and then i came back and did a two-week residency which really was immersive it was freezing cold it snowed on the first day and the snow didn't melt all the time we were there it never snowed again but it was banked up you know it was solid it was frozen in england if you drive into a bank of snow you kind of you know the car crushes the snow right but in chicago it was so frozen the car would just kind of ramp up like a four-wheel drive would just kind of ramp up on these huge snow drifts and it was freezing you know your eyes would freeze it was november or december when we went but just to be in that building and see people who'd come out out in the cold to come to this building because there was a dance event happening because there was a music event happening carolania had put on this tea party and that had it had dance she was singing it had a contemporary dance performance it had this tea ceremony that everyone engaged in there was just always so much going on you know there was this artist who was commissioned once a week who would just do these pop-ups in various parts of the building and you would go and you weren't sure whether he's going to be in the library or he's going to be in this room or that room you just be able to hear the singing and kind of follow it migrate over yeah just follow to where it was and it felt so special that all this was happening in this really beautiful space you mentioned in the book too about chiara laney that there was some like singing exercise yeah she is a i guess she's an artist but she also teachers vocals and they have this choir that would meet every every week and they were doing this exercise where you moved around the building we moved around this one room and you had to make a single sound I can't remember if she gave you the sound or whether you just chose it maybe you just chose it but it was just you know one syllable and you had to have an object that you interacted with as you walked around the space so it might have been that rocking chair you know that might might have been my object so I had to make the sound as I went around and then each time I came to the object had to interact with it maybe I sat in it maybe I climbed over it maybe I crawled under it maybe I turned it upside down but each time it was something and because you were so focused on this object and doing your thing each time the part of your brain that was concentrating on the singing just became really loosened and so I found the things I was doing when I eventually kind of checked back in with it it was really free and really loose and of course everyone else was making their sound as well so we were all kind of singing together as a choir but not really paying attention to each other consciously but unconsciously in our music world we were so just to hear like all these harmonies and sounds and rhythms and textures and you know you'd be challenged like the more weird someone else's sound was the more permission it gave you to do your weird growl or screech or bark or whatever it was because it was all about what am I going to do with this chair right can I fit my body through that side so it was really mind-opening and I also remember saying I wish this was my life and then saying to myself wait this is my life so I felt like there was this huge contrast between maybe the way I had thought about my music making practice which at that time had really become try and write those hits you know sit down and really concentrate and really make it happen and really put this pressure on yourself and was that pressure coming from you it didn't start off coming from me but it was very much absorbed by me when i was making my third record when we came over to capitol in los angeles you know bless the record label i think they had seen that i had been successful and they really wanted it for me and for themselves again so definitely with that third record i was kind of how can we make this work and you know i'd had lots of times of either playing people music had recorded or sitting there with my guitar in a room full of important dudes who were all sort of older than me and more powerful who would just sort of say at the end of a song they would say i just don't think it's the first single that's what i'd get all the time and so i would definitely be in that position of thinking well what is this elusive song that's going to kind of smash the doors in and of course for me on my first record that had been put your records on and did you know when you wrote that like were you like oh this is a single or no not all i mean i guess i was definitely thinking the album that i'd written because i'd everything else was done i was definitely thinking we need another kind of up tempo song so that's all we were thinking really was kind of the pace but it came about really easily and it was really fun it was really conversational and i liked it so it wasn't labored whereas i think with my third record it was just every try it just felt there was so much pressure on it and bless the label again you know the more time and money you sort of spend on on the thing really wanting to it's like gambling right you just like keep putting the chips down but at a certain point you're so you have so many chips in it's like well yeah i gotta keep going exactly it got in a sort of too big to fail situation for me where it's just i just it just can't it just can't not have an international mega smash on because it's taken so long and it's got so much money and you know i'm a people person people would lose their jobs if you don't do well at a certain point in a label you know if someone's your guy at the label and they've kept saying no she'll do it you know just keep we just need another$100 ,000 you know it's like the heads will roll and head did roll so I just was always you know like lying in bed with that kind of weight of responsibility like I am a failing pop star and my friends are losing their jobs because of my inability to produce this thing they pull this thing out of the bag so then yeah walking around with Chiara just singing these crazy bits of music and being with other artists who I thought were brilliant I just thought yeah I really remember this thing of music being freeing and playful and creative and pressureless and fun and I really want to get into that I want that to be my life and then of course being that was my life in Chicago in that building was my life and that led to a whole creative free project in black rainbows where i didn't feel the same pressures as i did when i was making the heart speaks in whispers so so that was the thought like i wish that music making was fun yeah i wish i could sort of get back to my first love without thinking this is really important because this is a it's for your career and it's for other people you know's livelihood yeah you You know, that's just.

20:13That's scary. Yeah, I think so. I read a book on Mo Austin or maybe it was about the Warner Brothers label. Right, right. But had a lot to do about Mo Austin. And there was a story about when they were starting, some A &R guy produced a Van Dyke Parks record. I think it was like Van Dyke Parks first record. Right. And it's very experimental and very cool. Yeah, yeah. I think it was like the most money they'd ever spent on like a record too. Yeah. And it didn't sell at all, but it was very cool. yeah and so he kind of sheepishly went to like mo was like hey like you know i kind of i fucked up like you know this was really expensive and it didn't sell and apparently mo said well is the album good and lenny was like yeah it's amazing he's like that's all we can do that's it done yes it's like where's that kind of an executive these days you know it's a it's an important thing to say i think to be fair to music executives the way that people buy music means that there isn't the money stream coming in in the same way you know i always say to people with my first record if you wanted to hear for example like a star you could sit by the radio and hope it came on yeah or you could go to the shop and buy the cd or vinyl or in india tape but now if you want to hear a song you can just stream it but of course the streaming the record doesn't bring that much money to the artist yeah so there's a big gap now between i love that song i have to hear it right now or you could listen to it on youtube which is completely free and none of the money goes to artists but isn't money going to the label though no the money is going to label yeah but it's the same amount of money going maybe there maybe it is and maybe they're sort of all good but the artists aren't like i would love to know more about it i feel like someone like taylor swift would know the breakdown on those kind of things she knows she's taking account of everything that's going on yeah so she's like let me just re-record all my records you know but um yeah i think there is money somewhere but it's definitely not with the artists I mean I feel really lucky because I got to have that phase but I think for new artists it can sometimes feel for them that the making of the music is just the start and that if they can then spin their good music into kind of making themselves a cool brand then maybe they can get the sponsorship that they need to go on tour to yeah you know so it's really hard for artists they're like okay I've made a great record but now i need to i don't know get my instagram figures up so that i can wear these trainers to pay to go on the road i don't know i have a friend who i didn't really know to be a music person but all of a sudden they have a job now as an a &r person and um they were on instagram on their little story complaining they did they videoed themselves saying um you know i'm spending all day long going through music and i'm finding artists and i really like their music and then i'm going to their page and they're not promoting themselves so why would i invest in you if you i'm like really wait a second wait wait wait that's bad that's what you're supposed to that's a whole deal i'm going to a page and they're not it's almost as though they're spending all the time recording music that i like you know all the time sitting in front of a camera telling us what shoes they like or like what products are using there yeah yeah i think that's really crazy and And also being a self-publicist is in, I feel it's kind of counter to the feeling of being an artist, right?

23:33The feeling of being an artist is like, here I am with my cup full. I humbly bring it to the world as an offering. Right. You know, whereas being a promoter is like, I am the shit. You need to listen to me. This is the best thing you've ever, you know, some art takes out like certain wedges of hip hop or like that have that well and also i think maybe like you know that might have been a reserved space for like the superstar at some point like the bruce springsteen or the whatever it's like i can kind of be both a little bit here i am the boss yeah whatever or like a kanye's you know what where he was at one point with just like people love that kind of swagger but if you're just sitting in your room playing a song on your acoustic guitar or you on your sampler or whatever you've got to just hope that someone's into it and I don't know are we getting are we only getting artists who have got a kind of a weird distance between what they who they are when they're making and then who they are looking at themselves from the outside thinking what are my marketable traits I just feel like there's something that really ill at ease yeah with that for me but yeah I know that that's how A &R works it's like they look at the numbers and they say well if you haven't got enough followers then there must be something wrong instead of thinking we can help you get followers right we can we can invest in you platform yeah yeah yeah so i think it's hard for new artists but i mean obviously there are lots of great artists coming through but it's generally people who know how to get that ring light on and get that content done and that would maybe be prohibitive to other kinds of artists yeah yeah after the break we'll be back with more of my conversation with Corinne Bailey-Ray.

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28:55Terms apply. we're back with corinne bailey ray in the book too you say it's been a real journey for me in music in terms of what i've wanted to say and how much space there is for it yeah just struck me what did you mean by that i feel like now it's a revelation there's as much space as you imagine there to be if you can uncouple from the idea that you're trying to make massive hit music like i love this andre 3000 record which is just like i really tried to make a hip-hop record but i actually want to just sit cross-legged and play my bass clarinet yeah why shouldn't a music maker have that phase in their career especially someone who's already packed the dance floors and there's already been the music you have to play at your wedding and your party and you're getting ready to go out it's like why should we expect artists anything else of artists except kind of evolution the artists are meant to be the weirdos the strange ones the ones who are kind of like listening to the muse the ones who are a bit out there and and so i think there is as much space as you imagine and you can say anything you imagine you just have to not think that people a large amount of people are gonna actually care you know but some people will care and that will make a deep connection and that's really valuable so how have you experienced then the reception of your new album black rainbows i mean i've experienced it in a really profound and rewarding way i mean i think i've experienced it in two ways maybe three one is actually live you know going to a room like traveling somewhere on a tour bus getting out of the bus getting our stuff ready getting my clothes on getting my makeup done and then walking onto that stage and just being there and saying i've got some stories for you i've got some things i want to say and seeing people react you know when we first started our tour our last us tour it was before the record had even come out and i knew i was playing the whole thing so it was just you know you may have heard two songs of this whole album but here we are just bringing it to you and you recorded it and everything but you hadn't yeah i mean the album wasn't out yet so the tour went just ahead of when the album was out so i think maybe people would have heard if they were really looking for it they would have heard New York Transit Queen and maybe Peach Velvet Sky but nothing else and just to be able to play the songs and see people's reaction and feel like you're in it with people you know to be able to play um he will follow with his eyes and go from this kind of dreamy section into the more disjointed music at the end where I'm singing I'll be hit with my plum red lipstick my black hair kinking my black skin gleaming and just to say that over and over again and to hear people like start clapping and cheering and like standing up and just to feel that in real time that gave me so much you know it made me think this is striking a chord that's all I want all I want is to connect with people and I get that feeling in a room of 500 people 800 people a thousand people 1200 people just small intimate rooms that meant the world to me doing those places or being able to see hear a song and you can hear a pin drop no one's talking no one's at the bar you know just a song they've never heard that meant a lot so that's one way i've received it i think another way is um getting to talk to people like yourself or being requested to talk with people like yourself that's meant a lot to me that the phone has kept ringing or that you know to say can you come on this can you come on this can you come on this can you come on can you talk can you talk that's been amazing just to say like oh it has connected in certain places that means a world and then yeah the same getting to be on radio and play the music and then have like the feedback come through or you know we just did a session for joe wiley and she's on radio 2 in the uk and i had played for her in 2005 i mean i've been back since but just to think gosh i've been in this space many times but this is doing a really different thing and to have people you know phoning in and does it feel like a first record again for you in a way like does it feel it does feel like a first record yeah and it also feels i think because it's different to what people might have expected it feels like um not cheeky but risky you know it feels like a risky thing to do but good well even from like in a meta way as a listener of your music beyond like just really liking the set of music what's exciting about it for me is seeing someone that's been in your life for as long as you've been in our lives take that risk it's thrilling and it makes you know myself i'm sure other people too who listen be like yeah fuck it i want to try something different because the wreck it's really out there and it's really fucking good oh thank you yeah thanks it's just been good for me i just feel like what do i want to do with my time here i don't want to forensically pour over what i've done before and try and make it enough the same that it's going to catch those people and that's why i try to always talk to the label people about the people who bought my first record they're not even the same now like who a listener was in 2006 it's not the same as who they are in 2024 so it's like even your audience has changed in terms of who they are so i would have been like 16 when that record came out i loved it now i'm a almost 35 year old dad of two girls whatever but like listening to it makes me feel 16 again because it makes me excited it's like something new you know so i think it's sort of patronizing to kind of imagine that your listeners you know everyone's kind of in a bell jar like just waiting for the same thing again i mean he who even wants the same to buy a same record yeah even if i made it carbon copy you know like the disney films that they do where it's like it's the little mermaid but it's live action but it's exactly the same but it's different but it's you know i wonder it's a little worse it's different but it's the same it's different i mean it's a little worse so it's like how can you ever compete with the really you know the thing that you already did and it's just better to like make a new movie and see what that's like yeah the little mermaid will still exist i mean i did actually like the little mermaid but as an example of the whole way that things are being kind of remade you know why not just do something new well the reason is because it's more of a risk but what the benefit it is that it's new art in the world which is good for everybody yeah yeah you do take your time and you alluded to that a bit earlier do you feel though like you've found a rhythm in a way that will allow things to come a little easier yes i definitely feel that and i think part of the reason the third album took so long is because it was actually a combination of songs that weren't rejected by either myself or a team you know so I could have written three records in that space you know there were definitely songs that were just like a wounded bird that you just kind of lay by the side of the road and just try to start something else so I think I will never go back to that place however I make my records now even whether it's with a major label or not I like the thing of making a record without anyone I really enjoyed that this time so you met and that's how i did my first record so you make it and then you sort of take it around like you're a traveling salesperson you know you say it's this it's weird it's different is it good is it bad and some people say no and then some people say yes and then when you find someone who says yes and you can work from there i think that's a way that i want to carry on doing it and that's cool you know having you know made a studio and invest made those kind of investments i think that it's possible so yeah i'm just trying to work out what to do next have you heard from labels either your old one or different ones?

36:38Yes, I have. I've heard from different people who are at the different labels and it's been really positive. I mean, I haven't heard from any sort of like the giants of any of the labels. And you know, you think, I wonder if they've even heard it or not. But, or even like my old manager, my first manager is like, I'm so happy you made this. It really sounds like you and it sounds like you're having a good time. And that means a lot to me that it's come from a historic me as well. That's not like a reinvention or something. Yeah. I read in the book that you felt like even the way you wrote the songs was different I mean basing this rather than the songs coming from some internal sense of how you're feeling or something that's happened in your life you're pulling the inspiration for the songs from outside sources from these items you discovered at the archive in Chicago did you enjoy writing that way and is that something you keep doing as well I really enjoyed writing that way because I really didn't try to write that way And I think I hear about people who, I don't know, write books or write films or they say I was on the tube and I overheard so and so.

37:38And a lot of songwriters work like that as well. Right. So I think because I wasn't trying to write songs when I was looking at that stuff, you know, that first day I was just curious or nosey even just pulling open drawers. And I like that or like certain things would interest me, certain things wouldn't. And I guess I was drawn to my own things that fascinate me. you know i looked a lot of women i looked at children i looked at particular eras of america i looked for beauty you know i was really interested in the glamour and fashion of ebony from the 40s and 50s you know i hadn't seen imagery of like black women in elegance and gloves and pillbox hats and yeah i hadn't seen enough pictures like that i should see more of that because every time it's flashback to the 50s with black america it's the black and white footage of the dogs by you know that's what i mean so i think i had seen so much yeah vintage blackness that was really framed around civil rights struggle or violent oppression they were the images that went all over the world for all the reasons but i think what that does is it makes blackness into a kind of perpetual struggle yeah you know like the work of being black in the 50s is to struggle and i remember talking to miss audrey smaltz who was miss new york transit queen 1953 that's a real thing yeah there was a competition and it was miss new york transit so that was the competition that she won and that's how i found her it was the black equivalent of miss subways when i left the arts bank i was googling like miss transit miss transit all i could have found was these two articles that were in ebony magazine so it was the only source on the entire internet but i would keep coming across miss subways which was all of these kind of doris day types you know sort of posing and their photos will be plastered all over the tube and so you could vote for who you thought was miss subway of any particular year and i think the prize was you know free ride on the subway or whatever for the year or just one for the year that's incredible a lot of these women you know there were secretaries they were teachers they They were, you know, they were going to their work and they, you know, beautiful women and immaculately dressed.

39:50But the competition, even though it was in New York, the competition wasn't open to black women in the 50s in New York. So the black transit workers of New York got together and made Miss Transit. And that's why we see Audrey Smoltz. I think she's the fourth winner ever of Miss Transit. But yeah, because of that and because of Ebony and because someone put it on the Internet, I was able to find out about it and actually find Audrey Smoltz, you know, because she became a very famous woman. in fashion and media was that the impetus for or i mean i imagine she was probably glamorous before if that's how that's how she won yeah she won she was 17 and she was an art student and she had entered this beauty competition because it lists her as being i mean i don't know feet and inches because we're metric in england it's 5 11 one foot one inch shorter of six foot yeah okay but she is actually six foot but they thought it wasn't feminine enough so they say so it's like she's five foot eleven but she's so dainty yeah yeah don't be intimidated fellas but yeah she's she was the six foot sort of amazonian beauty but she won the competition i mean obviously because of her looks but also she had this folder she was an art student so she drew and so that was her you know you had to show your kind of studies or special interests and i really i like the idea of that but yeah going back to when you think you close your eyes and think of black black America in the 50s and the 60s it is kind of a police dog so seeing all this glamour and seeing all this beauty and but I said to Audrey Smoltz you know what was it like growing up in Harlem in the in the 40s the 50s you know was racism a kind of was it an everyday you know struggle for me being this you know black English girl and she's like honey no she's like I lived in harlem we were fantastic we lived in that i didn't know it was the projects we thought we were muckety muck she said we had a library in the basement we had black artists on the wall and she was painting this kind of this segregated world of harlem saying our teachers were black our doctors were black our bankers were black our lawyers were black we lived in this relatively safe space where actually our everyday was not thinking about the the struggle yeah we were just getting on with our lives and that really blew my mind to think about these some black spaces were safe to the extent that it wasn't the defining factor of a person's life you know they went to finishing school she went to miss celia divorce finishing school she just painted this picture which made me realize that we're always overlaying the kind of political struggle on top of the everyday lives of black people at that time that's why i loved ebony magazine because it's of course it's talking about politics but it's also talking about the black families that are putting on an art exhibition in the house and it's talking about the black doctor in canada and it's talking about hem lengths and wigs and makeup and nail varnish and where you can buy the best powder deodorant just the real everyday things of black life so i just i mean ebony was just this amazing glamorous brilliant source for me that's beautiful i'm have to go back and look at some of the i sometimes i'm like google books i'll go back and some old stuff and look at those but i should pick some up at like a store and look at them yeah yeah there's still a few around because i got one last time i was in chicago which on that tour you know in november i managed to pick one up and then now it's mine you know it's like 1965 and front cover's gorgeous that's great that really a real piece of history does every song on the album correspond to some thing or things in the archive yeah so every song on the record is directly influenced by an object or a group of objects or the events in the arts bank so that song put it down comes from those experiences like with chiarolania or this dance party that happened in the arts bank where you had to write down your woes and put them in this big vessel on the way into the party and i love the party because it was a proper mixture of the hip art crowd who like theaster and admire his work he's internationally collected he's represented by white cube and so those people and then local community people who you know that is the south side of chicago so it's a underserved community is the current title and then just like black hip uptown people people from the university so it was a real mixture when you looked around the room and everyone was just dancing to this frankie knuckles archive for like three four hours sweating it out in this building you know like freezing outside condensation on the inside and then they set fire to all the woes at the end and the thing that i had put in there the burden that i'd been carrying i never experienced it the same after that event you know like the the actual cathartic thing of dancing it out, being in that building, being around those people, burning it, that was it, you know, done for me.

44:50So I'm a real believer in dancing out your woes. And that's what came into that song. You know, when I've gathered up all my woes, I put it down, I make a burden of all my woes and put it down and then, you know, too much inside, I got to dance it out. And then into the end, you know, I feel so free, I put it down. In hindsight, was the woe, was it small in hindsight or was it something actually substantial? It was big, definitely. yeah it was sort of getting in the way it was blocking what then became all this new stuff you know just a perception of myself and i just recently went to this medic meditation class as well and they talked about a hindu god whose work is to slice through the false narratives that you have of yourself and i remember i think she's called shakti i remember thinking yeah i want that You know, just just like burn away all the stuff that's not relevant.

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49:16cards issued by jp morgan chase bank and a member fdic subject to credit approval terms apply here's the rest of my conversation with corinne bailey ray what about the song earthling what would inspire that earthlings i really i mean there was a lot of stuff in the record of what's time and where are we so are we here now but we're we're the future for our ancestors and we're sort of in communication with them I think that you know you can reach backwards you can kind of tell them where you are and how far we've come and that we're safe I don't know I really feel that and I felt that a lot after I had my children as well I felt really connected to the kind of line going far far back but I think with the earth things I thought a lot about utopias you know in the library there's a big conversation going on over about 250 years between black thinkers you know a classic example would be an early malcolm x and a martin luther king position assimilation versus separatism you know we find ourselves to be here the assimilation argument says here we are outside of west africa in america in europe in south america black people but we find ourselves alongside our neighbor we are human and they are human let's find a way to live together and move forward from this moment the separatist argument says we are here in this hostile environment how can we possibly survive the only way to survive is to turn inwards and separate ourselves from everyone else whether that's a geographical place like Marcus Garvey back to Africa or whether that's a spiritual idea that the separatist communities that sprung up in the 60s and 70s or whether it's economically when people talk about trading only with inside the community all these different ideas and back and forth in the library since before emancipation and then from there on there are different black thinkers some saying we can make it work we're all brothers and sisters and some saying no we have to be separate and so earthlings is looking at utopia and looking at all these different attempts at utopia like the black pioneers going west and making their own all black towns some of which were really successful some of which still exist some of which were crushed and destroyed like greenwood which was the first incident of fire bombing that happened i'm not aware what is what is greenwood greenwood was an all black town that existed that was a very wealthy town and there was an incident where a black man was accused of interacting with a white woman in a lift a sexual aggression towards this white woman and a lynch mob came for this man into greenwood where he lived and the greenwood citizens defended him and said no we're not going to hand him over to you this is a false accusation and the rumors grew and developed and eventually the area of greenwood was firebombed by the people who were outside of the community and it's the first incident of firebombing used in america these agricultural planes so i think there are some utopias which worked some didn't but i think the song earthlings is about how to make utopia sort of knowing that it's impossible but it's asking you know can we eat pineapples in the sun can we dig our gardens and live can we find work in time to dance you know how much do we need to work to survive how much freedom is possible in the world how much can we share our resources and all have enough so i was kind of i am really interested in those questions it's like a pragmatic view of of utopia it's like you know it'd be nice the basics you know yeah well it's the basics but it asks those questions so i'm the optimist who says you know i know it won't be long like we can make this happen and then i know other people who are close to the song who say when they imagine it they kind of imagine it coming through the speakers on a sort of spaceship where you know all the astronauts have died and they're just kind of floating around in nothingness you know like we we didn't do it we missed our chance we're on the planet and the planet's destroyed you know by essentially our own selfishness however that comes out you know selfishness is manifesting in racism doesn't it the separation of ourselves from other people the imagination that they're not other people yeah we can't because then when we don't have to imagine them as people then we don't have to share anything with them land food resources love and so yeah that song i'm an optimist that's what i have to be that to get up in the morning i like that view it's more more of like a like a curtis mayfield yeah exactly yeah there is a train coming you know yeah exactly we can get on board we can all get and you don't all you need is faith you know you don't need a ticket yeah i really i like that it's a kind of i don't know i guess for curtis mayfield it's a specifically you know christian gospel message but I think it has the resonance, you know.

54:34So what's the train? The train is kind of psychological. It's a moment. It's consciousness. So I'm optimistic in that way. That's cool. I want to ask you about another song, but before that, they reminded me, talking about Curtis, reminded me that you did a song with Al Green. Oh, yeah. I don't know if you were actually with Al Green. Yeah, I was with Al Green. I've been dying. It's terrifying. Tell me. I've been dying to find someone who could tell me about Al Green. It was Questlove. It was Amir who asked me to do it. I can't remember if I'd even I think I'd met him then I had met him and we'd met a few things and maybe a music cares thing and a grammys thing and obviously it's a Mia and it's the roots and he was producing this Al Green record so it came to me like oh they want you to write a song with Al Green and I thought okay so I had to fly to New York and walk into the room and there's Al Green and And he's just like, yeah, nice to meet you.

55:27You know, it's really softly spoken. And he's like, you know, don't worry about anything. You know, when Al Green is in the room, you know, when Al Green is here, everything's fine. And he talks about himself in the third person. Amazing. Does he have glasses on too in the studio? I can't remember if he had glasses or not. I remember thinking, you know, I'd worked on some chords at home because I'm not the best guitarist. And also I thought, you know, I'm really actually going to be there with Al Green. I don't want to be scratching my head. so we'd worked you know on these chords for take your time how did you present the chords to them i was just played them you know i had the spanish guitar and i was like you know mr al green are you feeling these like do you like this james poise was there who obviously plays with the roots and he's a brilliant organist and cuba player of all kinds and obviously quest love so we were the band kind of jamming this song and i sang a few lines he sang some lines and how did the words come did you have those already i didn't have the words already no so it ended up being a kind of i guess you know it's a duet but there's this big age difference between us so it wasn't like we were in love with each other it's more that we were reflecting on you know do you remember when we used to take our time you know i'd write you a letter and you'd always stay up all night or you know now it seems everything's going too fast and so it's kind of both of us reflecting on longing for a time when i guess love and communication could unravel in this real slow longing which you know so much about al green's music that that feeling of hot damp southern air and love and waiting you know it's slow burn kind of like yeah yeah i mean and it's so amazing and it doesn't take much to kind of set it on fire and so it's all about the anticipation with his music and so yeah i can't believe that it came together and i remember just sort of thinking i can't believe this is really happening it's really al green and quest love was brilliant obviously on the session he got lots of different people and i think john legend was on that album as well yeah so there was all these kind of you felt like everybody in this room knows what they're doing even if i don't and i just have to you know it's like a sink or swim yeah yeah was and al green was sweet al green was like you just don't worry about anything you know when al green is here so pete you can just relax and you know he's a reverend so he's actual pastor and then years later i went to his church did you i'm that's my next yeah i mean you've got yeah you've got to go because it's a real church in a real building and people are there with their babies and women are fanning themselves i didn't know he's going to be there i think he just that is his job so he's there you know if he's not on tour he's just in the church leading the service you know and he speaks there's you know one of those organists who like plays behind the sermon and swells and the passionate parts and then he holds it down and then he said corinne would you like to come up and sing something and i was thinking oh my gosh you know this is the real gospel church my christian background is not gospel music it's like a white baptist church you know someone with a guitar and a rainbow guitar strap and someone playing a tambourine that is what i know okay you know so it's like my black church experience comes from listening to records it doesn't come from sitting in pews so i was like oh what's he gonna ask me but it was amazing grace which i of course know so yeah and i remember thinking don't try and you know don't trying to like make all these crazy runs just yeah just sing this song and um i think they thought they maybe couldn't do that so it was really it was really simple how he made it but i wasn't about to be like f-jump major you know so i just i was happy you didn't call the key you just did whatever i sang my song you know it was a church so i wasn't trying to dazzle but yeah i also didn't fall on my face which is good but yeah i was really appreciate it That sounds like the right mindset, the right approach.

59:28Yeah, it's like, I don't try to pull any tricks out of the bag at this point. I'll just stick to what I know. You know what's surprising me? I think about this kind of often and going back to Aretha, was like Ariana Grande at Aretha's funeral. I was like, what the? Is that what happened? I didn't watch Aretha's funeral, but occasionally, okay, more than occasionally, just sort of hear an Aretha Franklin vocal. I can't remember what it was the other day. And I was just like, holy shit. she's totally unparalleled a total master in her own lane and just the the ability to control you know it's like it's delicate it's burbling you know what it was it was her and smoky robinson singing you heard the duet version it's a duet that they just did totally spontaneously and you can tell it is because smoky sort of waits for the first note before he does a harmony and it was on Soul Train.

1:00:24You've got to watch it. I'm going to. Yeah, and she starts singing and he said, oh, we should have been a duo. And he says, it's not too late, baby. And I hadn't quite got them right in time, so it's like Smokey's a bit older than her and he kind of looks older. He's wearing a jumper and he, I don't know, he might be like 40 and she looks like she's, I don't know, 29 or something. And she's just like, her skin's all just like beautiful and trotchy and she just, it's amazing seeing like a woman and she's you know a serious statured woman and then smoky looks kind of small next to her and she's the piano player and he's kind of perched on the end of the thing it's just like something you maybe hadn't even seen in terms of gender on tv reversal yeah you're right that version i was like holy shit her piano playing is ridiculous just everything and like just thinking of her being in church you know with her hair pulled back playing behind her father who was like a superstar minister c l franklin wasn't he which you sort of forget about that she really came up through gospel music and kind of the business of gospel music right people travel far and wide to see him his daughter that could also sing was kind of a side show to him he was the main artist and just to think coming up under that training just you cannot go wrong from there but yeah i think aretha is probably the absolute pinnacle you know she's the top so and you always feel like you feel like she's there you know like oh she's reached kind of the top of her range and then the show was just like 17 more you know like whole tones from there just like she just shifts her gear yeah it's amazing always another level yeah i always worry or wonder i shouldn't say i worry i wonder about the later part of her career and it sort of makes me feel sad for music that in a way like in the 80s there was sort of less room for a singer there was less room for I don't know late phrasing or taking your time or space like the arrangements became really dense and the only type of voice that could sit on top of it would be like a sort of Michael Jackson voice you know there's loads of air in there it's really like of course Michael stabs through at important times but I felt like in the 80s there wasn't really the room in production in hip music i always feel sad when music kind of takes a turn and it means like an artist just gets sort of chucked away like how it was for bill withers kind of so are you going to do disco bill no okay well you know bye and then you don't really hear his records you know into the 90s and obviously then there's that cover of lovely day and he's sort of back out you know that's again another thing i think of as artists you know was bill withers label saying well look how well stevie's doing well look how well this person's doing and you're i mean live from carnegie hall didn't have a good reception it's one of my favorite records of all time insane that's an insane record yeah but it was like it wasn't well received because my dad's got these um magazines and it wasn't sort of well reviewed you know it's really oh you know it's old material and it didn't have the spot i was thinking i'm at carnegie hall yeah but it's elevating all the songs that it was like it's all the songs you know but just i don't want to say better but it's just another gear talking about grandma's hands for longer than the the length of grandma's hands but that's the version i play to my kids and they know that speaking part as well as they know the song you know and it's like i love that old lady love that old lady just his rap his talking is is is as great as a song what a good person what a good human so that's the other thing i think of as an artist is you can be in a moment and think oh well my work is not as well known or as popular as x y z a b c d and e that's not why you're doing your thing you're doing your thing because you're doing your thing yeah and i think there's always time you know sometimes people might not get into a record until the person's died but then it's if it's made it's there yeah do you think of yourself as a singer i think of myself as i guess i think of myself as a singer and i think of myself as a music maker you know I like my voice I don't know I remember doing loads of award shows and stuff with my first record and thinking oh it's funny when you're divorced from like it's not your song it's not your arrangement it's not your production I'm not playing my guitar it's not with my band yeah you know I'd feel really like well what can I bring to this they literally want me to sort of put a dress on and heels and just kind of go but I did find that I had something to say so yeah I do see myself as a singer what were the best versions of that in your mind oh gosh i mean i got to sing an aretha franklin song i got to say i'm trying to think angel it was a music cares was honoring aretha franklin so although i never got to meet her i was kind of like i was next to her you know on the red carpet i saw she had this white fur coat on it's like it was kind of split low so you can see her you know a beautiful figure and um she played a few songs at the end of the night and that was amazing but yeah i remember singing i just played it was abe laboreal junior and oh he's great laboreal senior and so yeah the he plays with paul mccartney and then i think his dad plays guitar so that even just the band was ridiculous and i think i had my guitar i don't even know i did but i just was playing the chords really simply but yeah getting to do that and knowing she was there that that was really amazing and it worked you feel like it worked you do yeah it worked it worked and i'd heard she liked it you know that's great and so that's all you can she can be i think a lot of people were really trying like sang like out sing aretha kind of thing which is like in aretha franklin tribute but i think everyone was just trying to shine yeah my way of shining was like try not to do that don't try to do that thing just trying you know it's a good song I was sort of honoring as a songwriter so yeah that's great yeah cool well thanks so much thank you thank you thanks to Crin Bailey Ray for meeting up in LA to chat about her book Reflections Refractions at the Stony Island Arts Bank with us you can hear a playlist of our favorite songs from Crin Bailey Ray at brokenrecordpodcast.com subscribe to our YouTube channel at youtube.com slash brokenrecordpodcast where you can find all of our new episodes.

1:06:53You can follow us on Twitter at Broken Record. Broken Record is produced and edited by Leah Rose with marketing help from Eric Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer is Ben Tolliday. Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries. If you love this show and others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content and ad-free listening for$4.99 a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple Podcast subscriptions. And if you like this show, please remember to share, rate, and review us on your podcast app. Our theme music's by Kenny Beats.

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