Duff McKagan

34:27Oh, it's because I'm in this band. you know and they set us up on the thing and we're on t we're on mtv and with all that stuff like it's kind of lonely you know like when you realize that it's kind of like oh shit did you ever ever have a period where you were like worked it a little bit like you know took advantage of it in any way not my style it's not really not my style to this day you know yeah no but i i really kind of went back i have my best friends i grew up with and they're still my best friends but we have our text group we've been through it you know one of my buddies was strung on heroin for you know 14 years and like all of us has an interesting story you know and we've been through it together and so it's it's really nice to have so i kind of reverted when all that kind of stuff i just i just hung on to my my buddies i'm like uh this just kind of weird you guys you know like so um deep it was a deep band you know like yeah they should be listening like uh paradise city that the captain america's got a broken heart you know it's like it's deep it's heavy shit you know brownstone about getting strung out on heroin you know yeah like it's not your average you know uh hey hey rock and roll you know it's like the subject matter is kind of deep yeah and i always thought it was interesting that so much was made about Guns N' Roses being so wild and hell raisers.

35:56But it's pretty obvious that you guys were extremely driven. And I know that you went back to school, you studied business. But even back in the day when you guys were first offered contracts, before you were even offered full record deals, you were turning stuff down because you knew that this isn't good enough for us and you held out, which it must be so hard to do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We got offered$10 ,000 for the rights to Sweet Child of Mine, you know, like$10 ,000 when you're starving. Literally, you're not, you know, we're working like phone sales jobs and stuff and paying for a rehearsal place and had days when you just couldn't even afford a top ramen, you know.

36:44Yeah. $10 ,000 is like, we're rich. but if we just thought if and it was for the guy was smart it was a he knew welcome to jungle he saw us playing it in the clubs he's like I'll offer you 10 grand publishing on that we didn't know what publishing really meant but if it's worth$10 ,000 to him it's got to be worth that to us at least and then we got offered a publishing deal this is after we got signed $200 ,000 well if it's worth$200 ,000 I mean that's like five bajillion dollars to us at that point yeah but if it's worth that much to them we don't really know what publishing is or how it works it's got to be worth that to us you know why give it to them so we were kind of like a little street gang and when we started making money even like we got accountants you have to get a cow like what the fuck is that you know we're all smart we're smart guys we're like yeah yeah but also very driven just you know it's like everyone kind of thinks of you guys as like hard partying, don't give a fuck, like all that.

37:51And that, I mean, I'm sure that that's true too, but you're also very driven. Yeah. Nobody rehearsed more than us. Nobody worked harder, you know, like, and still like when we, when we go out and tour, you know, we thought we just did, we'll go on and rehearse for six weeks, you know, six days a week. Not just going and fuck around and talk. because you put the inners in and we're playing and we play for hours. So in those early sessions when you, in that era when Guns was looking for a producer and you met with a bunch of different people trying to find the right fit, how did those early songwriting sessions work?

38:30Because I've heard you say it was pretty collaborative. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Coming up with the music and then finding a producer later, two different things. We were done with Appetite Plus other songs. By the time we started looking for a producer, we knew our songs well enough that we didn't want a producer who would get into the songs. We didn't want somebody touching a note. You're not going to touch a note. We wanted to sound like we sound in our little rehearsal because it sounded fucking great. Yeah. So, but we went to, you know, like there was, there was like Mutt Lang who'd done Back in Black and stuff.

39:13And like, I mean, that's a great dry sounding record, you know, but he was to get him. He was more than just a walk in the room with more than we got 250 grand to make our first record. Yeah. And that would have to pay for, you know, that's an event, including an advanced us so we could live, stop our jobs. It's an amazing day. but we'd written songs we had this a lot of times we ran on acoustic guitars because that's all we had and the night train was written on acoustic guitar and we'd go out like I remember that in particular we'd drink the night train you know this cheap booze it was like I don't know$1.27 a bottle and we were going to go out and fly her for a gig which is something we would go out and do together you know at least a couple of us go this night we were going out as a band we're going to cover a whole area and you walk you know you got your bucket of paste and you got flyers in there and we just kept singing this the the chorus for night train and because we kind of written we were all got together i think it is these apartment beforehand and came up with the genesis of that and we were singing it because you we didn't have phones and shit to record stuff yeah you have to remember what you wrote.

40:31So a lot of times you just go around singing it. But we landed on some really cool shit. You know, I remember like landing on the notes for Michelle. I mean, just kill it. We just played that riff for hours, you know. And then you have to come up with other bits and so bits and pieces. Who came up with the whistle in Paradise City? Axel, I think. I think he had a whistle as like a necklace. You know, like this cool whistle. You know, you use the stuff that's around you. Yeah. When you're making a record on budget. One of the songs has like a... Whatever that thing is really called. But we use a comb and wax paper for that.

41:18Like, we need that sound that's like in 70s cop, you know, TV shows. So you use what's around you. But finding a producer, you know, we found Mike Klink. after we sat with Paul Stanley. Just because, like, wow, Paul Stanley from Kiss. If nothing else, he came at Raji's and sat and watched us. That's a dirty show. And then he came to have a meeting with us about producing the record. It wasn't the right fit. We could tell. When we were talking about music, his idea of what it should be and our idea was different. But that was fine. You know? But, yeah, but again, it's like another instance where you guys are confident in your sound, where you can say no to somebody like that.

42:07Well, we just knew. And we knew we were at the age that we should know, right? Like, whatever was going to be next in rock was going to be on our shoulders. And somebody who was maybe wasn't with us through the whole thing, who understood it completely, they just wouldn't understand it. You know? We just wanted microphones up against our amps and around the drums and capture Axel. Yeah. And we had these backing vocals that we wanted to really, like, you know, if you listen to the appetite, backing vocals are, like, such a big part of it. You know, we wanted that to be a thing. But Mike Klink came in.

42:47He didn't really want to sit down and talk too much. He said, why don't I come down and record you guys? I've got an eight-track reel-to-reel. Okay. And he came to set up some mics and then recorded us and then played it back for us. And, you know, I had a little setup to play it back. And it sounds fucking killer, Mike. He goes, well, that's all we need to do is just capture, you know, it's like the mic through the cord and then through the board onto the tape. That's what all we're trying to do. He wanted to catch the purest form of that. I'm like, okay, great. So we tried some tracks with Spencer Proffer.

43:27And that's actually where we made the Live Like a Suicide EP. It was at Spencer Proffer's studio. We had a day to ourselves and we just, we had an engineer there. We made the Live Like a Suicide records. Not actually live. That's why there's a question mark and all that stuff. Oh, okay. We weren't a big band. The joke is we weren't big enough to have a big audience. Our audiences were like 12 people at that point. Then you hear this roar. they had the Texas Jam audience live from the Texas Jam was like all these huge bands and we're like let's use that audience oh my god so you hear like the loud roars and the firecrackers we just lit firecrackers off in the studio but we got we tried out different producers and then you worked with Dan McCafferty Dan McCafferty from Nazareth those records just sound great I mean And it's the precursor to ACDC and to that cult electric record.

44:26It's like very dry, just in your face recording. So we tried Dan and we did get 29 songs recorded at Sound City. You can hear them. They're on Spotify. Yeah, there's a box that we put out. We finally put those songs out, 27 songs, whatever it was. All the covers we did, Heartbreak Hotel by Elvis and all this stuff. But landing on Mike, you know, he just needed to capture you guys. And when we got into that rumbo of recorders, he was really good at, like, kind of corralling us. Like, okay. We'd do a take. There's only, I mean, I think all of that record is first, second or third takes of every song.

45:11We played all the time. You know, we didn't need to do 19 takes of anything. and Steven was crushing it then so we didn't need to get like, we don't got the drum take yet, we'd have it you know, so, and Mike was really good at like, we had headphones on, first time kind of using headphones and all that stuff and he knew it was all kind of alien to us and he'd come on the thing, he'd talk to them alright guys, it's time to dig in this is the one you know, he'd let us get one out you know, and maybe we'd use that first one but he'd say, okay guys, dig in He had this kind of voice in a way about him, very gentle.

45:48He never got out of, you know, he was just, he's always just been this gentle guy. All right, guys, it's time to dig in. When Mike, you said that you knew like somebody was fucking around too much or something. All right, we'll dig in. We'll dig in. Focus. Yeah. And were you guys doing overdubs and stuff, or was it just all one take? Bass and drums are pretty much one, yeah, one take through that stuff. Slash understood that he could put his guitars on again. When we were doing, they're called basic tracks, he drank like a fiend. I wish we could get outtakes of his guitars. We'd have to turn it off because he was so out.

46:30He was so hammered. Slash, we're trying to get basic tracks here. He'd be laughing and stuff. He did, I think probably kept some of his guitars and Izzy's guitars on those basic tracks? Because everything was isolated. If it was a good take and it sounded good, like, why do it again? So Slash would be like noodling and like jamming and just like going off the script, basically? Yeah, falling on the ground like, dude, we're trying to get basic tracks over here. And Axl would sing with us in all the basic tracks. He had a little booth. Because we're used to playing as a band, right? Right. And we always did that, even with all the Use Your Illusion stuff, you know, played everything as a band.

47:15And anything that was good enough for a take, because you want that, you know, first take in rock and roll, right? If you can get it. And was there more tinkering with the lyrics or were those kind of locked by then? In unappetite? There was no tinkering. Yeah. No, everything was done. Everything was absolutely done. Slash guitar solos, he had written those, you know, everything was done. It's just a matter of capturing your own tape. We're going to pause one last time for a quick break and then come back with the rest of Leah's conversation with Duff McKagan. In today's super competitive business environment, the edge goes to those who push harder, move faster, and level up every tool in their arsenal.

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50:44Machines that make you feel more human. Because a car that doesn't make you feel something is a car that stops short of amazing. Experience amazing at your Lexus dealer. here's the rest of leah rose's conversation with duff mckagan you've been in so many bands before you even moved to la you had been in probably eight bands eight yeah bands yeah i've been a lot more than that but yeah i love in the documentary where you're just naming the names of all the bands you've been in like the farts and yeah yeah you know um seattle had a great music scene it's just unfortunately like heroin came in in about 83 and i was left i didn't want to move someplace i was playing with all these great people there was i was like one person away in every band like from a band being really fucking good you know as you know like seattle scene took off only a couple years later you know soundguard and stuff like that was all there It was just in my group, it was just everybody was strung out and it was time to go.

51:53If I wanted to do this, it was time to get out. Once the Seattle sound was established and did take off, you know, with Pearl Jam, Soundgarden, Nirvana, what did you think of that sound? I was super proud, you know, super proud. I was on the, you know. So Bruce Pavott from Sub Pop, him and I worked at the same restaurant, and he had Sub Pop the column in this newspaper called The Rocket. So it kind of opened, that's how you got information, you know. You're not old enough to remember any of this stuff, but Max from Morocco was a fanzine that would have the scene report. So that's how you found out what was going on in Chicago, Washington, D.C., Dalit, whatever, you know.

52:37You'd read about it. And he had sort of that column in, it was called The Rocket in Seattle, music newspaper. And then he was about to put out his first sub-pop single. Like, oh, that's a good idea. Named after your column. It's a great idea. And it was the U-Man, I think, was the first band. But that was right in, when I was getting to leave. So he picked up Steam, and then my friend Kim, from Fastback, she went to go work for sub-pop. Like, they were hiring employees, You know, like, holy shit. Wow. And I was put on the sub-pop singles club. So I got all, I got, you know, a Tad single and, you know, all the early shit.

53:19And I was really, really happy about it. Went and saw a Soundgarden when they came and played here in 18. What'd you think of Soundgarden? I mean, I knew Kim and I knew Chris. And Ben was around. I knew Ben a little bit. So they're right. you know they're not trying to write pop radio song they're doing it for them you know i love those kinds of bands you know and pearl jam came down and played the cat house i knew stone and jeff from before and i got and played with them at the cat house i played drums we did sonic producer and nirvana they were on geffen i mean that you know the nevermind record was like i wore out to cassette before the record even came out.

54:02I was so surprised. In your book, you talked about, a little bit, you alluded to the scuffle that happened backstage at the MTV Music Awards between Nirvana and Guns N' Roses. And I imagine you being the peacemaker because you're from Seattle, but you're the one who actually got into the fight. Yeah, because I was just like, well, okay. so that thing was really a non it's a story because the bands were so good at the time but if you were there you'd be like it's really a non-story you know okay yeah but Kurt Loader was around and Kurt Loader at a time before there was social media he loved the tea man and he loved to stir the pot and he's the one who really got that thing going you know interesting as far as it went.

54:53It was all really a Kurt Loder, as I see it, because it was like there was no there there. We wanted them to go on tour with us, like all that stuff, you know. We'd had Soundgarden out and Faith No More out. We got bands that we liked to go tour with us. And seeing Chris Novoselic, you know, I'm a tall guy, but seeing Chris, I was like, I'm so glad I didn't get in a fight with you, chris he's a fucking he's huge yeah but just because he's tall doesn't mean i know but you know i feel like you could take him um so there was no there there and you know i was really but back to seattle bands i mean allison chains and fucking everybody was so mother love bone you know that was the first like fuck and i knew andy wood great greg gilmore the drummer was in my bank 10-minute warning, you know, and the living.

55:47I'm the one who found him from a gig harbor from this ad that he had and brought him up to Seattle. So, I was like, it's happening. You know, we knew all the talent was there. I had to bail. Why did you leave, though? Because everybody around me was strung out. From my roommate, who was one of my best friends, one of the guys, I told you, strung out in heroin for 14 years. My band, 10-minute warning, we were, we toured Black Flag, said kennedy's we're on our way up we're on our way there you know everyone came into that band tore it apart heartbreaking my girlfriend you know like everybody around me a friend of mine who was strung out came he's like dude stuff you gotta get out we're all you know you're like all our best hope i'm like you're right i gotta go and that was it i sold gear.

56:42I had a job. I had like $340 after selling my gear. So it's like, okay, I'm going to go. So was the ambition to go to LA to get in a successful band or just continue to play music? I wanted to find, like I said, I've been in bands where there's always one missing link. I was on the search for my band that didn't have a missing link. How I was going to do it, I don't know. You know, like, doesn't matter. That wasn't the part. It's going to get done. And, you know, and meeting Slash and Steven through the ad and the recycler and Easy moving across the street from me and meeting Axel. You know, like, one thing led to another.

57:25I had Ron Reyes from Black Flag was my good buddy. You know, he was down here. That's so cool. Yeah. So I had, you know, like, a friend. I got a job right away. one thing led to another you know we found the band that had the right guys in hey about eight months after i was thinking it's the first time the um the five of us got in room together about eight months after i got here so and once you got that right band like nobody can you know like for me we're going it doesn't matter you can starve you can do all this shit but we're going we got the right guys you know when was the first time you heard axel sing what was your impression so So, yeah, so Izzy and he were playing with these two other guys.

58:11They were trying it out. And it was another guitar player, great guitar player, another drummer, really good drummer. And they asked me to come play. And it was out in the valley. They got it, you know, and by the hour rehearsal plays, like, four bucks. They knew the guy that owned it was like four bucks an hour. And we had it for three hours, you know what I mean? And drummer had his stuff up there. and guitar player had his hands. And Izzy, Izzy's more like the Thunders guy. So he had like a, you know. And Axel got on to check out the PA. And I'm telling you, it was like, what the fuck is happening here?

58:49And he just kind of did the scream. And there was, he has, he still has this thing where it's a double voice, because they're low and high at the same time. But I was just like, holy fuck. Now the other two guys, we played some gigs as that band. And I was just like, he's amazing. Izzy's cool as fuck. Other two guys. So we booked this little punk rock tour. I had all the punk rock clubs I played, right? And you had the phone numbers. And you'd go to the phone booths. And you'd book your little tour. And these other two guys were like, what do you mean? Where are we going to stay? And Izzy and I and Axel, they knew about punk rock houses and stuff.

59:30You can always find a place to crash, even if it's at the club. But it doesn't matter. we have the gigs we'll figure out all the rest and the other two guys just were like we're not leaving you know like what do you mean so that's when the slash and steven came in and the moment of five of us in the room it's like oh here it is here it is it was kind of amazing yeah so you went on that first tour and then car breaks down you end up in an onion field starving eating raw onions yeah the onion fields like and that book i think it just come out a few years earlier that book the onion fields you know about that but the cereal pillar up in bakersfield yeah the book's called i think it was a movie too the onion fields oh yeah we're in the onion fields man yeah but imagine trying to hitchhike you know five guys with their guitars like looking like us yeah we made it to the first show you know we've opened up for the fast facts and used their gear and we were awful.

1:00:33There was three people there. But now, of course, in Seattle, in lore, like everybody says they're at the gig. I'm like, that's impossible. Really? You know that? Because the three people there were in the fastbacks. Oh, I want to ask you. So you come from a big family. You're youngest of eight kids. What was your house like? Was it a loud house? I mean, but if you grow up in it, you don't realize it is. But fuck yeah. Yeah. You know, I mean, there's always something going on. And there was instruments around. So, you know, the way I learned to play was like, my older brother would say, keep time, you know, on the drums.

1:01:13You'd see somebody else do it. One of the older kids, you wanted to be as cool as that. So you, luckily I had some, you know, musical ability innately ready to go. You know, so I was able to keep time. And my brother showed me three chords on the guitar, played these three chords. And your feet, you know, first time you're playing, your fingers are like hurting and bleeding and shit. But the older kids, you don't want to, you know. And then he taught me today is your birthday on the bass. And we went and played this for some school kids or something. You know, I learned that. And I played it. And really, that's the blues major scale.

1:01:53So I really learned, like, the right shit. Four, four time, you know, blues major scale, G, A, and D chords. What more do you need to know to this day, you know? On Lighthouse, I mean, G, A, and D is featured pretty prevalently in my songwriting, you know? You can do a lot with those chords. But, yeah, you know, and then playing, like, I played team sports, played baseball as a kid. Okay. I played football, played basketball. And I kind of, I had some good coaches when I was young, played for the city leagues, you know. Oh, that's cool. Yeah. And they really like, I learned a lot about like, playing your part, like on a team, right?

1:02:37You know, you're a linebacker, you're not the running back, you're not the safety, this is your domain, be great at it, you know. Speaking of playing your part, have you ever been in a position or have you ever had the desire to want to be the front person when you are playing either like guitar or bass? Like, are you always happy being in that position or have you ever wanted more attention? I think it's because of the way I grew up. Never got into music like to get chicks, to get the drugs, you know, all the stuff they say. It was always about, like, I really wanted to find that great band where everybody played their part in it and, like, kind of was great at their place in the band.

1:03:25And that's all I was ever looking for. Like, doing my own records, I love doing it. It's fun. It's fun being a singer. It's more like, my gigs are more like book readings, you know? Kind of more, like, I'm telling stories. In my songs, I'm telling stories. I talk between a little bit. It's just more of like this other thing. And I'm not trying to be anything I'm not. Yeah. So no, I never. I played with people in bands that wanted to be the singer. And that's a cancer. It's just percolating the whole time. It's like I never had that. I love when I'm a bass player I'm in a that's what I do I play and I want to sing the best backing vocals I want to be the best background vocalist there is in my range you know so that's what I strive to do and I love it and when I have a good gig it's like fuck yeah you know since you've been in so many different bands you've seen so many bands play who in your opinion is the best lead singer of all time, like checks every box.

1:04:40I mean, you'd have to put Axl, just from what I've seen him do over all these years, what he does and how hard he works at it, his hour and a half warmups and hour and a half warm downs and where he has to push. And we play a lot of shows, you know? Yeah. He's a master. I've learned so much from him. singing so much. What are some things that you've learned? Really kind of dynamically how hard to push, where to push from in your body, you know, how to tilt when you need an extra vowel. Really, like, particular shit. You need some more A in your vowel, you know, how to tilt. You know, and just minutiae of how to do it because it's all minutiae.

1:05:36You know, it's from note to note to note to note. So people I played with, he's, you know, I'm in a band with him. So of course I'm going to like, he's my guy, you know. I think he's just a master and just a fucking hard worker. I mean, I've seen Robin Sanders, amazing, you know. You see guys like that or Ann Wilson, come on. I don't know if you've seen her. Jesus Lord like she has to hold the mic this far away from her you know just like okay just pure pure singer William and Allison Chains like Jesus Christ like but I also like you know Henry and Black Flag I like the real people you know the real thing do you find yourself now that you're getting older that you're listening to slower music can you listen to punk rock so we don't listen to a lot of punk we like we listen new wave time yeah we have a couple stations that we we have like this it's called tune in and they play like a lot of you know gang four and stranglers and andran and all this stuff so that i like all the instrumentation and a lot of that stuff really a unique instrumentation and um i'll listen to punk rock i mean it depends i like some new bands.

1:07:01I really like The Garden. They're not that new anymore, but do you know that band, The Garden? No, I don't. Oh, yeah. They're twin boys. Their dad was running for X forever. They're really, really unique and super cool and great live. Oh, cool. Yeah, who else? I always like to ask people what they're listening to. Who else are you listening to? Or what else are you loving? It doesn't have to be new. Yeah, I mean, nepotism, I guess, is real, but My daughter Grace is fucking amazing. She keeps coming up with another new song. We were just talking to, we had dinner the other night with Shooter Jennings, who did my last record.

1:07:37He's like, man, we have to get Grace out there somehow. Wow. I agree, but I'm her dad. I can't really, I'm in Guns N' Roses. I can't. She never asked me for my house, and I don't want to be like, come check out my daughter. But she's rad. She's rad. But she's turned us on to The Garden. And Turnstile is a great young punk. Have you heard of them? Yeah, I've heard of them. They're from New Jersey or Baltimore. And they do it right. Are you working on new music now? What's next after? You said you're going to go on tour. Yeah, I have another 82 songs. Good. So The Well is still flowing. It's flowing, man.

1:08:19And I don't want to question it. whether you think the music is good or bad, I have like songs. They're coming. I'm really proud of Lighthouse. I'm really proud of those songs we chose for that record. There was a lot more to choose from. We decided to do this, to tell a little story of like a beginning to end and the hope in the middle. And the, you know, I just don't know at the end. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That song's very, very powerful. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for other questions. Thank you so much for doing this. Yeah, it was great. Okay, cool.

1:09:19Broken Record is produced and edited by Leah Rose with marketing help from Eric Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer is Ben Toleday. Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries. If you love this show and others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content and ad-free listening for$4.99 a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple Podcast subscriptions. And if you like this show, please remember to share, rate, and review us on your podcast app. Our theme music is by Kenny Beats. I'm Justin Richman.

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