Earth, Wind & Fire

23:08That was a bless your heart. But not yet. Not yet. Yeah, right. But if he, if there was something that, you know, that you brought that, you know, clicked with him, he would jump right on it. You know, like my first collaboration was evil, you know. And it was surreal to me because I had this idea and I showed it to him. And then the next thing I knew, he said, you know that little piece you were showing me? This is what I did with it. Like, what?

23:43Justin Richmond:How did you bring Evil to him? I had the seed plot, the evil thing, and I had lyrics and I had a melody and stuff. But he flipped all that. But he really heard, you know, what I was trying to do, you know. Yeah. And it was inspiring to him enough to take the situation and flip it. Wow. Here's a question. So at the time that you started writing with him, did you really, really understand the value of the writing and the publishing side of it? Oh, heck no. Okay, yeah. I didn't understand that until yesterday. Okay.

24:27Oh, man. Oh, wow. Okay, yeah. I'm still waiting for you. There may be some money out there. Yeah, exactly. I'm still waiting for you to explain all that. Oh, my God.

24:36Justin Richmond:Okay, yes. But you were a co-writer on that, right? Oh, yeah, yeah. You did get credit on that, right? Yeah, I did. Yeah, yeah, that's why I said that was my first, you know, real co-written venture. Yeah. We'll be back with more from Earth, Wind & Fire after the break. I just got back from an amazing family vacation in Northern California. After years of trips to large cities, my wife and I took off north with the kids to Marin, just north of San Francisco, where we spent all of our time in Redwood Forest hiking places like Bear Valley down to Stinson Beach. It was the perfect reset for our busy lives.

25:12Justin Richmond:Plus, the drive was long and car time with the kids always makes for magical moments. Trips like that are truly unforgettable. And what makes it even better is booking your stays on Airbnb. Now, if you're planning any upcoming trips, you could be listing your space on Airbnb. It's a smart, practical way to make use of your place while you're away and earn some extra cash at the same time. And with the co-host network, you could hire a local co-host to handle everything like creating your listing, managing reservations, guest communication, on-site support, and even styling your space. So while you're making your own memories, your home can be helping another family make theirs.

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27:11Justin Richmond:And for Dean, you're such a unique bass player. I mean, you have the low end thing going. You kind of have that cool James Jamerson, melodic, harmonic complexity thing going. I mean, but you're almost like the best of all bassists. Like you have a little bit of everything of all those different styles in you. You know what I mean? Well, for me, first of all, I love the bass. You know, I love the sound of it. When I when I first saw the bass, it spoke to me. It spoke to me. You know, I want to play this. The bass came at me. Wow. You know, and it was upright bass. Bass is bigger than I was at the time, you know.

27:52And and then I was able to like really coming out of Chicago, you know, you know, you were you were talking earlier out of different genres of music. coming out of Chicago, you know, R &B, jazz, pop, you know, there was a lot of different genres for me to pull from. So when I would hear something, I automatically heard the bass within it. And then when I came to California, it really crystallized because we were able to, I was able to really concentrate on music, on the bass, and then later on putting the bass where the bass fit. Because at first when I started playing, cut the bass up, cut the bass up.

28:35Well, you have to put the bass within the track of what it sounds like. In other words, you don't want it just to stand out. Right. You wanted to stand out in a certain way, but you wanted to be part of the song. Yeah. You know, and that's what I learned when I came here. And you played earlier two songs. Yeah. But for me, the first two Earth, Wind & Fire records, I was sort of like winging it a little bit, you know, I'm just winging it. But the record that crystallized for me was the Need of Love album. Really? Yeah, for me, a tune, Energy. I'm going to play that. That's really when it came together for me because the record's much more looser.

29:18You know, I was really hearing, growing into it, growing into it, whereas I was just trying to hang on on the first record. Yeah. I did a record. Oh, oh, oh. whereas now I'm doing a record so how do I how do I implant myself within the record yeah and the tune that did it for me was a tune called Energy I can feel it in my bones yeah you don't have to be alone right right right and then it goes left it goes left into some Miles Davis stuff and I was right there with it too man you know and that was those were things that couldn't be explained. Yeah. When you get to this section, you got to do this here.

29:59It was like, it just, you just knew you had to hear it. It just, it just switched.

30:04Justin Richmond:It just went. You know, because it started off as a drum solo with Maurice doing it. Yeah. Then got into the tune, then all of a sudden it just turned and it just kept, it kept, it kept going. Yeah. But you know, it's a, you know, that story is a testament to the fact that Verding was not only really, really, really gifted as a musician, basically, but he was destined. It was destiny, you know, because when you tell, when he tells that story and you think about, you know, the, what most musicians know at a certain point in their, in their careers, in their recording careers, he was so young to it you know and laying it down in a fashion in which he did was just very extraordinary I think just to illustrate that too and what Maurice brought to a song and what you guys also collectively as a group brought to a song I want to play a little bit of the creative source version of You Can't Hide Love and play a little bit of your version you can just hear the difference between how you guys get a hold of a song and you know

31:27Get in creative source. No, he wasn't in it. Okay.

31:57Justin Richmond:And it's cool, but it's not a classic until... Right. Right. Step got a hold of whatever. Charles Stepney, you say? Yeah, man. Yeah.

32:25And then Reese on the Tom's I think coming through.

32:40Justin Richmond:It's like you can hear the song actually now. And there's still this crazy arrangement around it, but it doesn't distract from the song. That other version, as we called it, it was a hipper version. Yeah. It was hip, whereas the other version of Can't Handle Up kind of reminded me of a fifth dimension. It was very much a fifth dimension kind of. A fifth dimension concept. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the way it sounded. Well, it was interesting because Skip and Jerry and them, they were working with the fifth dimensions, writing songs and stuff, working with Friends of Distinction And the Friends of Distinction and all that kind of stuff.

33:15So you can kind of see where that was going. More vocal groups, really. But that doggone Charles Stepney was just, you know, if there wasn't a Charles Stepney, there would not be an Earth, Wind & Fire. That's right. Because he was just, he was that important to, you know, what we were to become. Right. So Maurice was the visionary, but Charles was able to, he was the consummate writer, producer, musician, arranger that he was able to really hear where Maurice thought he wanted to go. Yeah. And say, okay, this is the way you arrive at that destination. Yeah. This is the way you do it. And I can show you.

34:04Justin Richmond:For people who don't know, do you guys want to say who Charles stepped in? I don't think it's a name everyone readily knows, you know. Yeah, and it's a shame because Charles Stepney was the co-producer, and I'll take the co-off, you know, he was the producer with Maurice on the records. The arranger. And the arranger. And, you know, he was able to guide me as a vocalist on how to sing reasons and how to record, how to think, you know, and when not to think, you know. But he was like a big brother and, you know, a counselor. He could be everything, you know, to us at just the right time. He was like our Quincy Jones, our George Martin that the Beatles had because we had these ideas, but he was able to walk us through it as Phillip said, how to get there.

35:11But he did it in a way he would teach you. On bass, he said, okay, give me a double stop. And I didn't know what a double stop was. So we said, okay, we're going to put it together. We're going to do C, G, and then you just go down. Then we go down, scale, go down. And he would teach you why you were doing it. He would. He would really teach you. And it wouldn't go above your head, you know, because, you know, these progressions and stuff, we might have not been, a lot of musicians might not have been as sophisticated as the ones that are playing in our band today, you know. but Charles was able to say you know play this triad and leave this out you know you play this and leave this you know and derive at what he wanted to hear without overwhelming the musicians with the theory

36:06Justin Richmond:and that's a big part the arrangements are such a crucial part of you guys because just like in that song it's like the arrangement is really insane It's really crazy. It's a wild arrangement, but it doesn't obscure the song. It doesn't obscure what you guys are doing with the song. Exactly. It's very similar to Quincy or George Martin. You're right. Like the way it's you could really take musicians and teach them something different, but not take away from the song. There was an album Charles Stepney's. His family put out an album of some of his stuff before and on it a couple of years ago. They have the early demo of That's the Way of the World on there.

36:46I want to play a little bit of that. Is it like a salsa kind of thing? Whoa, really? Because I remember hearing That's the Way of the World, but it was a different groove.

37:02Okay, see? See, and this is how we would hear stuff that Charles would bring because he would be down there in that basement tickering and stuff And he would... That's exactly how we would hear it. Larry started on that Moog synthesizer. Wow. And Larry took it and ran with it.

37:45But as cool as that is, I mean, for it to turn up, for this to be the final result.

37:56Unbelievable. Well, that's what the production is about. Yeah. Finding it. And then it was about the fact that we had all the right people at the right time. Right. You know, like, you know, if you take any of those ingredients out, it couldn't have been what it was. Because Alma Cade is so much a part of the greatness of what the Earth and Fire became. Because he was the guy who could take whatever idea and make it funky. You know, really, really put a groove on it. You know, and because him and Verdine worked so closely together, If you got Verdine and Al going in a certain direction, you got half the band, half the work is done.

38:53I called them Sweets. And Sweets would say, it's right here. It's right here. Don't go nowhere. And he could hold that groove, man, for an hour and a half, and it would just get better and better and better and better. I mean, like Phillip said, you know.

39:11I mean all those things that you can't put on paper. Yeah. So you and you and him would really like that. Yeah. We had like a sixth sense where it was going to go. Wow. And even if the notes are wrong, they sounded good after you played it with him.

39:29Justin Richmond:That's amazing. Yeah, man. More from Earth, Wind & Fire after the break. I just got back from an amazing family vacation in Northern California. After years of trips to large cities, my wife and I took off north with the kids to Marin, just north of San Francisco, where we spent all of our time in Redwood Forest hiking places like Bear Valley down to Stinson Beach. It was the perfect reset for our busy lives. Plus, the drive was long and car time with the kids always makes for magical moments. Trips like that are truly unforgettable. And what makes it even better is booking your stays on Airbnb.

40:05Justin Richmond:Now, if you're planning any upcoming trips, you could be listing your space on Airbnb. It's a smart, practical way to make use of your place while you're away and earn some extra cash at the same time. And with the co-host network, you could hire a local co-host to handle everything like creating your listing, managing reservations, guest communication, on-site support, and even styling your space. So while you're making your own memories, your home can be helping another family make theirs. Find a co-host at airbnb.com slash host. The future won't wait, and neither should you. That's why American Public University offers master's programs designed for momentum, affordable, high quality, and flexible, so you keep moving forward.

40:48With career-relevant programs in business, healthcare, education, IT, and more, you can gain skills you can use right away and the confidence to power your next move. American Public University, made for what's next. Learn more at apu.apus.edu.

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42:38Justin Richmond:I mean, it's such a funky song, such a classic funk song. But when you listen to that opening.

42:48Justin Richmond:It really is just like a boogie woogie blues, like a like a. That opening, man.

43:02Justin Richmond:I mean, he made it so funky and you right in there with the interplay with them, Verdine. Yeah, it's just a blue. It's really just like a blues. It's like a fast wall or kind of like a riff or something. Also, too, Philip had said earlier, there were so many people that helped us. Another major component was George Massenburg. In terms of that sound, to get the sound out of those instruments. You know, particularly for a black group, sonically, that when you heard it, you would say, oh, my God. George was a big, big part of that. It was inspiring. What he would bring would inspire other stuff.

43:38Really? And he was an electrical engineer. George had a room at the complex in the back where he would just, if he wasn't in the studio working on music, he was back there tinkering. A solder and iron, a transistor here, a diode over here. You know, he was always back there.

43:56Justin Richmond:And he has a, I mean, his name in the engineering world is his name in the engineering world. George Massenburg laughs. Unimpeachable. But he wasn't George Massenburg when you guys started with him, really, right? Maurice hunted him down. He found he was I don't remember the exact story. But but when he when he heard about George and I think he was living in Washington, D.C. area, Baltimore, Baltimore, right. And Maurice actually, you know, sought him out, you know, and brought him into into the fold. I always wanted to ask you guys about we talked about Charles Stepney what an influence he had but he died too soon too young and you in the middle of making Spirit as a matter of fact we were about to cut the track Spirit I was on the drums and Maurice got the phone call that Stepney had just passed and we just went on and cut that track but that's right after we got the news I remember that clearly Wow.

45:02Clearly.

45:04Justin Richmond:And the man, that had to be heavy. It was very heavy. It was earth shattering. Yeah, I mean, you know. But, you know, the thing that amazes me is like the next record you guys do after Spirit, all in all, he wasn't there to help guide you guys. And it is just one of the all time in my mind. It's hard to pick a favorite Earth, Wind & Fire album. but all in all the fact that you guys it's now just you guys and your your kind of mentor or maybe maurice's mentor is not there and you guys go in and cut you know i mean all all in all starts off with serpentine fire goes into fantasy jupiter loves holiday beijo i'll write a song for you which is like a great feature for you philip and magic mind running brazil doing wayne shorter's Ponte de Aria, like, just, what an insane album.

45:58Justin Richmond:So you guys didn't miss a beat, really, you know, musically. Yeah, well. I'm sure you missed him, obviously, but musically, you guys were just. You know, you can't take anything away from Maurice's genius. And, you know, when we talk about Step, it doesn't take anything away from Maurice. It just gives Charles what he deserves. Yeah. You know, it was very important that we do that because he meant that much to us. Yeah. Do you remember the idea of having to make a record without him being around? Yeah. We were fortunate, like I said, not to be redundant. We're fortunate enough that if you worked with us, it was you were accomplished in your craft.

46:47Yeah. Reese didn't pick people to work with that were you know not excellent in what they and what they did so all of the major people we knew and you know he would go after whatever he was hearing in his head he would go after the the right ingredients yeah to add in there do you guys have a favorite earth wind and fire album they're all your kids they're all good man you know you're not thinking i would say this if you asked us maybe 10 20 years ago we could give you like one yeah but now the time has passed there's just so many of them and you love them all for different reasons of what they brought yeah i was heartbroken that faces wasn't did not do any you know what the other rated because there's a lot of great material there's a lot of great material on that on that record i think some of the greatest works that that we did

47:49Justin Richmond:collectively some of it is on faces that's a really good record it really is sail away yeah yeah one of my favorites off of there i always wonder if it had to do with this one of the first records where in a while where it wasn't the cover wasn't like psychedelic it wasn't like uh the cover was it was just faces it was people was really simple and really it was beautiful in its way but It was really simple. And you guys had these really almost like funkadelic. You guys had really signature album covers for such a stretch, you know? In Faces, there was a young man with a boombox. That was Chaka Khan's brother.

48:25Really? Yeah. Yeah. You know, random shots of people. And it was Faces.

48:34Justin Richmond:Yeah. Yeah. How much were you guys connected to the other artists around like Shaka or even like you guys do like a Wayne Shorter song. He's around with Herbie. Quincy's making stuff. We were managed by the same management group as Weather Report. And so we did several stints where we'd gig together. with whoever that was fantastic just to hear you know jose avenue and wayne and them you know like play before us it was like it was crazy we played some colleges and stuff together wow you know but you know interestingly enough we were kind of in a bubble right i didn't really begin to really branch out and know people till we got in we we broke up you know for those years years and eighties yeah because we were just we're always working always planning to work yeah on tour and on tour and you gotta have to understand that we we went from mama's house to earth wind fire that's right that's right yeah you guys got plucked right out of home right and And coming from my house, I met a new brother, Phillip, and another brother, Ralph.

50:00So it's like, it was just like an extension. So we didn't know anybody but us.

50:05Justin Richmond:Yeah. It's amazing. I was reading through your book a bit last night and reading a little bit about that period where you guys, you know, went separate ways as a group for a while. Right. And in it, you really talk about wrestling with, is this a break? Is this the rest of my life? Am I doing music? Well, that kind of break, the way it was done, would cause you to think that. Yeah. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Because it was just like a meeting, and then, okay, we're on a break. That's how quickly it happened, and that's the way it happened. So it would cause you to pause about your future. And you have success producing with Al McKay, The Temps, but then you also start doing construction, and you're working at a stereo store.

50:48Justin Richmond:I was a federated stereo in San San La Brea. When I was reading through that, what struck me was now 40 years later, you guys are, it's like you guys never, it's like that window as probably emotionally fraught as it was at that point was such a small window in the overall. When you look at the overall picture. The overall picture of the group. It was just a moment. You would never know that that moment happened. And the fact that the three of you, without Maurice, now sadly, without so many people that we've lost, that you guys are able to continue to give the gift of earth, wind, and fire to the world 40 years after you guys coming back together in around 1986, 1987.

51:26Justin Richmond:It's just, it's mind-boggling. Well, one of the things that the book talks about is resilience. You're never to bounce back. Yeah. You got to be able to do it. But in those 40 years and those little glitches, you know, it all wasn't roses. You know, we were growing. We were discovering ourselves. Yeah. You know, and then as I mentioned, in the dark, a lot of the bigger things that happened for us happened later. You know, normally a lot of people would get accolades up at the top. We got a lot of ours on the back end. You know, as we call it, the back nine. And part of that had a lot to do with, I think, with the technology of sampling of the artists coming along, discovering us, and sampling our music in their music.

52:18And the parents, like your parents was telling you about us. It started working that way. When we first started, people said, oh, we love your music. We think your music's great. Now they come up to us and they thank us for making the music. it's like a big thank you.

52:37Justin Richmond:Well, because it really is, and I'm embarrassed to say too, the first time I figured out who you guys were was from watching Fresh Prince of Bel-Air when I was a young kid. And they had a joke with a law firm that the dad worked for was Firthwin and Meyer. And I was like, that's so, like, Firthwin and Meyer. And then as you grow and you grow older and you just, you absorb your music through the radio, through buying the records, through streaming, through hearing them in films or commercials or whatever, you just realize it's almost as if all that stuff that we were up top we were kind of joking about about Maurice where he was living healthy and drinking smoothies and protein shakes and eating healthy and there's a great story in the doc about you guys meditating before a show yeah yeah like just insane and the audience is losing their minds and you guys are just sitting there meditating for five six seven eight minutes but it's almost like all of that went into the music and for those of us who weren't there while it was being made while it was being released who were hearing it after after the fact it really does transmit you know all it feels like all that spiritual work it really does transmit and i think that's people relate to started but in but when maurice passed you know we're gone a lot you know we travel a lot so we're not home as as uh as much you know as a lot of people when maurice passed when i got back i had the biggest card like from here to here from your neighbors.

54:02The neighbors had all signed a card. Because when the news hit, it was all over the world, of course. But my neighbors had signed this big card. That must have meant a lot.

54:14Justin Richmond:Yeah. That must have meant a lot. I mean, Maurice meant a lot, and you guys all do, man. Oh, absolutely. I was fortunate. I think the first Earth, Winter, Fire show I saw was around 2009 at the Hollywood Bowl. Maurice just came out on stage for a second right right I said wow that's amazing you know that's when he decided to write his book I think I think was it yeah before we wrap Philip I'm gonna ask would you mind telling the story of reasons oh well here we go here we go you know we were on the road and we were in we had just landed in I think was that Philly or Atlanta was one of them. How much of this are you going to know?

54:59This is it for you? It's for the world. Are we recording this? Wait a minute.

55:06Justin Richmond:It's in the dock. It's in the dock. It's in the dock. Okay, if you've already put it in the dock, Phil, you know. Well, we are, you know, like bands have groupies, you know, and so we were on a plane, and there was this fine lady that was on a plane, And so, like, you know, like, all the women chasing members have their eyes on this particular lady, right? So it just so happened that when we got off the plane, you know, our road manager, Leonard, you know, we had, you know, eye signals. We know we had our signals where we go. So I gave him the signal. We get to the hotel. She's in the lobby. I go to the room.

55:59Leonard hooks up. She's in the room. Okay. And so, you know, we have an evening together and the whole thing. and the next morning you know how guys think that i've conquered the next morning you know i've got up to go to the bathroom or something but i hear her on the phone she's talking to her baby tell me to her boo you know oh yeah i i got you know giving him this story of what happened you know why she ain't home and stuff you know and so i get out the bathroom and she says to me you know something to the effect like yeah when i saw you i just said this had to go down so you know like my ego was like

57:00okay so that happened so i'm having this conversation with maurice you know on the plane and stuff we're talking about this situation and stuff and that's how the whole reasons thing came about that's how the whole the lyrics for for reasons and that whole concept yeah And love is just a charade.

57:25Justin Richmond:I mean, for that to be one of the most romantic songs of all time, people playing their weddings, anniversaries. In the morning when I rise, you know. No longer feeling. Yeah, no longer feeling hypnotized. I find I reason, had no pride, you know, and they were a lie. You know, it's like, dude. That kind of says it all right there. That kind of says it all, right? That's the story. But people were talking about, I used that on our wedding. I said, huh? Do you remember the first time you heard that? Oh, man, I've heard that so many times. I'm going, but did you listen to the lyrics? Take a moment and read them.

58:15Justin Richmond:People hear what they want to hear. Yeah. You know what I was shocked, actually, in hindsight, to find out? That wasn't even a single. Right. No. Right. It never was. Do you remember, when did that start getting, so it was just, I guess album cuts in the 70s. It was the live version that really jumped that record off. If you listen to that record, they roar when it first comes on, but that came on the Gratitude album. On the Gratitude, right. And it's the live version you always would hear on the radio a lot. With Don Myrick. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that was a big song already, even before the live one came out, because like you say, when the audience starts.

58:48Justin Richmond:They went crazy. It's pandemonium. They went crazy. I'm shocked it was never a single off of the previous album, That's the Way of the World. I'm shocked. Thanks for telling the truth all these years later, man. There it is. Oh, man. Appreciate you guys. Thank you. Thank you. Congratulations on the documentary. That's going to be exciting to be out in the world. We're excited. HBO and Questlove. Thanks for all the years of music, man. Thank you. Thank you. And thanks for having us. Great interview. Thank you. All right. Thanks so much to Philip Bailey, Verdeen White, and Ralph Johnson of Earth, Wind & Fire for joining us on the podcast.

59:24Justin Richmond:Be sure to check out their great new documentary on HBO Now. And be sure to check us out at youtube.com slash brokenrecordpodcast to see our video interviews. And check the link in the description for a playlist of some of our favorite Earth, Wind & Fire songs. And be sure to follow us on Instagram at The Broken Record Pod. You can follow us on Twitter at Broken Record. Broken Record is produced and edited by Leah Rose with marketing help from Eric Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer is Ben Tallade. Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries. If you love this show and others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus.

59:57Justin Richmond:Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content and ad-free listening for$4.99 a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple Podcast subscriptions. And if you like this show, please remember to share, rate, and review us on your podcast app. Our theme music's by Kenny Beats. I'm Justin Richman.

1:00:18The future won't wait, and neither should you. That's why American Public University offers master's programs designed for momentum, affordable, high quality, and flexible, so you keep moving forward. With career-relevant programs in business, healthcare, education, IT, and more, you can gain skills you can use right away and the confidence to power your next move. American Public University, made for what's next. Learn more at apu.apus.edu. I'm U.S. Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy. We all get distracted when we drive, but how we handle these distractions can be a matter of life or death. Please put your phones on silent and take a mental note to focus on driving.

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